From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 08:35:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered hopper painting and lettering In a message dated 12/31/00 12:51:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << <> Correct, very light gray with Black Shadowed Keystone and black lettering after Pullman Standard delivered them in early 1954. At least two had their roofs painted black for some reason. >> Pullman Standard had a practice of painting the roofs and ends (of boxcars) black. This is why the 20 X-48's where originally painted this way. Just in case you wanted to know. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 14:10:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders << Didn't Sunset (Samhogsa) import back in the early 1980's a series of O Scale PRR H Class Locos? >> Sunset did an H-8 or 9, along with an E-6 and a G-5, during that time period. I owned all 3, but their "Rubber Band" Drive was underpowered, at best, and the had a tendancy to shed parts. My E-6, in particular, was very poorly put together. I was almost pleased by the H class until I saw the Key versions of the H-8, 9 & 10, which came out at the end of the decade - then sold the Sunsets for whatever l could get to buy the Key. If you'd be interested in an "O" scale 2 rail, factory painted, H-8 or H-10, (I skipped the H-9 as it had the post-war generator location) contact me "off-list" and maybe we could make a deal. Dick Ross, Cleveland. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: [PRR] PRR RailCommand Equipment For Sale Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:08:44 -0600 I have some RailCommad equipment for sale. The list includes: command station, 3 auxiliary power stations, remote command center and four throttles. I also have 11 PRR locomotives with RailCommand receivers installed for sale. Please contact me off list if you are interested. Regards, Greg Johnson Friendswood, TX gregj@hal-pc.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Fw: RE: [PRR-Modeling] F Diaphragms Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 21:47:37 -0600 Happy New Year! I caught this on another list. Another big surprise in Pennsy Dieseldom. I for one have labored over these--in HO--and am proud of the way they look. Now it seems all that work is for naught. Can anyone add anything here? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL > --- In PRR-Modeling@egroups.com, "Al Buchan" wrote: > I had always thought the PRR F units came w/o diaphragms - but > because I > spent most of my field time in the MW department I wasn't 100% sure. > So I > posed the question to my good friend Bob Watson who was in the > Mechanical > Department. Below is his answer substantiated by Mechanical gurus > Carl Korn > and Dave Sweetland. I was correct after all. Enjoy > > Al > ============================ > Hi Al; > Happy New Year!!! > I do not recall any PRR road units with diaphragms, but as my contact > with > the early units lies in the dim distant past, I checked with CA Korn > & Dave > Sweetland. CAK thought that the BP1s (BH50s, nee BP60s) might have > had them > for a while. But DRS says that only the first road power purchased > was so > equipped; i.e. the E7s. Apparently the first several units of that > order > came equipped with diaphragms - at least the 5900A & B, and 5901A, and > probably a few more. Then there was a fire within their first six > months of > service, and the they were banished ever after. So the freight units > that > came later did not have diaphragms. Thus spake the Keystone oracles! > Let me > know if you learn otherwise. > RBW > ============================= > Al Buchan wrote: > > Bob, When the PRR received their F units did they come equipped with > diaphragms and if so about when were they removed? > > Al > --- End forwarded message --- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:08:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: RE: [PRR-Modeling] F Diaphragms Steve, Al, Thanks for the post Al. That is very surprising!. The 3 unit sets of EH-1500's pictured in Pennsy Power 3 appear to have Diaphrams. These are 1948 photos as delivered. Could it be the first batch of all early covered wagons had the diaphrams? Then later, not odered at all? Looks like I may have to remove them from my HO Stewert F3's. On my G Scale Units I am trying to model something that looks like the remnants of the sliding plates. Back to the drawing board....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:26:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: RE: [PRR-Modeling] F Diaphragms Steve, Al, Thanks for the post Al. That is very surprising!. The 3 unit sets of EH-1500's pictured in Pennsy Power 3 appear to have Diaphrams. These are 1948 photos as delivered. Could it be the first batch of all early covered wagons had the diaphrams? Then later, not odered at all? Looks like I may have to remove them from my HO Stewert F3's. On my G Scale Units I am trying to model something that looks like the remnants of the sliding plates. Back to the drawing board....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 20:37:31 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Steam Mike, list When I was still living in Maryland, I had a test oval with 22" and 24" curves. I don't own an M1 (yet), but I began breaking in my I1sa chassis (detailing and painting took until last year). The I1sa will run cheerfully on 22" curves; it looks a bit silly doing it. I have a short tender (90F82) on my I1sa, but a 210F82 would stretch the limits of clearances; I had spaced my tracks 2" apart, center to center. I would suggest using 30" curves if possible; the M1 is 5 scale feet longer than the I1sa (thereabouts); without owning a Bowser M1a, I would think that 24" would be a doable radius for the engine and tender, but overhang would be fierce. Doug --- Mike Morrow wrote: > Is anyone on the list running I-1's or M-1's (Bowser > or brass) on 24" > (or thereabouts) radius curves? If so, is the > appearance and operation > acceptable? (I know this is subjective) I'm working > on an Elmira Branch > trackplan, with limited space of course. The > difference between 24" and > 30" radius curves determines whether or not I can > have a peninsula down > the center of the room. Thanks in advance. > > Mike Morrow > PRRT&HS #6703 > The Elmira Branch 1956-57 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 20:55:49 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] More on H10s tenders Gene and the list, Gene, as I understand it, your current tender has the inward sloping Lines West coal bunker. I have in front of me Morning Sun's Pennsy Steam in Color, Volume 2, page 120. It has a shot of H10s 9942 (ex 9729) on 26 October 1953. She's one of the stoker fired H10s engines, and she has what looks like a slightly curved coal bunker. On page 118 of the same book is H10s 8061 (ex 8523), a hand fired H10s on 16 August 1953. She also has a what looks like a slightly curved coal bunker. On page 108 there's a shot of H10s 9989 with yet another curved coal bunker. Perhaps you could excise the Lines West bunker on your current tender and build a new coal bunker; you'd be duplicating PRR practice, and you'd save the effort and expense of an all-new tender. As far as using an H9s tender, I don't think that would fly, prototypically speaking. The H9s class used 70F70 series tenders (even the Lines West H9sc, which used a 70F70c according to the 1948 edition of MP109), while all of the H10s engines used tenders with 81" firing decks. Having said that, I cheerfully run my T1 in Polly Scale's grimy black because I can see it and I like it; sometimes you have to compromise..... Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:04:45 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Steam Mike: I have four I1's, two PFM's and two Key's. None will track well on 24" r curves. Even if they manage to make it through they slow down drastically. Also, there is the problem of the cab roof hitting the tender and shorting out. Not good! I don't even like to see Decapods on 30" but they'll make it OK. They will traverse a # 6 xover without a problem. Larry Mike Morrow wrote: > Is anyone on the list running I-1's or M-1's (Bowser or brass) on 24" > (or thereabouts) radius curves? If so, is the appearance and operation > acceptable? (I know this is subjective) I'm working on an Elmira Branch > trackplan, with limited space of course. The difference between 24" and > 30" radius curves determines whether or not I can have a peninsula down > the center of the room. Thanks in advance. > > Mike Morrow > PRRT&HS #6703 > The Elmira Branch 1956-57 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:08:35 EST Subject: [PRR] Dynatrol Command Control I have complete Dynatrol systems, all receivers, guaranteed, big discounts, for sale. Please contact me off list for item list. Jerry Schoenberg Carrollton, Texas arrjerry@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:21:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Take a glimpse at the EF-15A's Hey Yuze Gize... Athearn has finally posted the scans of the New PRR EF-15A's ( EMD F-7a&b units) on their website: ( http://www.athearn.com/AthearnToday/ATHEARNSUPDATE.HTML) They look great and you will love them. Somewhat spendy you say, well after you have a set of these you will never go back to brass! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:36:37 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] New Kadee 58 couplers Hello list, I have, so far as I know, the first Kadee 58 couplers in Korea. I knew only to expect a smaller knuckle, and I sort of ordered them on a whim. I've been playing with them for the last hour or so, and I like them. The 58 uses the same centering spring and shank that a #5 does; it will fit wherever a 5 will. The coupler is a lot narrower and somewhat shorter than a 5, but it will cheerfully couple with a 5. I have tested a 40 and 50 foot boxcar with the new couplers on a 22" radius, and the 58 couples with a feather touch, just like the 5. The two cars were accidentally mismatched in coupler height, but still coupled very easily; after correcting the height issue, things were still good. I had a little difficulty coupling to Accumate couplers at first. Accumate's knuckle is a bit larger than a Kadee 5, and pushing the Accumate equipped car into the Kadee 58 didn't work. I pushed the Kadee 58 car into the Accumate car, and that worked fine. I haven't tried a Bachmann or McHenry coupling because I don't have any on hand. Please note that I like both companies very much and that this is a statistically tiny sample of two. I suspect that Kadee will probably expand the range of smaller knuckle couplers to include offset shanks in a year or two; this will make the 58 and future siblings very popular. By reading the #58 direction sheet, I found that the 58 uses a #625 spring, while the 5 uses a 622 spring; the sheet says the two knuckle springs can't be interchanged. Kadee includes extra knuckle springs, like they always do, so all is not lost. I'm in no rush to convert my fleet of cars, but I will do things a pack or two at a time (just like my teenage years, when a pack of Kadee 5s or wheelsets was a dearer investment than gold, but all the more appreciated for it). Hopefully Kadee will offer these in a bulk pack soon. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:08:27 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 Erie Builts Anyone on the list know of a prototype pic that supports Life-Like making the Erie-Built engine numbers larger than the Pennsy lettering? Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] PRR Calendar Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:33:45 -0500 Hey Guys, Need your help! Does anyone have the address of Audio-Visuals Designs from N.Y. They published an all Pennsy calendar for years (I have them all). The original owner passed away, but someone else picked it up and continued publication. My 2000 last page is still hanging there with no way to replace it (I've misplaced all the catalogs, etc). Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Buzz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:16:43 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Calendar Don't know about AVD, but for the last five years I've been getting the Cedco PRR calendar. Its all in color! They can be reached at www.cedco.com and have some back years available. They also make calendars for SP, SF, Canadian trains, and several other RR topic I can't recall off hand. I annually put together a mass order from the members of my model RR club to capitalize on their qty discounts. BTW For those who have the Cedco calendar, I am certain that the caption for June is wrong. It is a beautiful shot of a red 5-stripe GG-1 leading Budd P85h coaches with the Congo paint scheme through Frankford Jct. in 1953. It claims the train is the Admiral; but the Admiral never ran Congo painted Budd equipment. The train must be the Congressional in its earliest years - Red GG-1, Red letterboards, no non-Budd equipment. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > > > Hey Guys, > > Need your help! > Does anyone have the address of Audio-Visuals Designs from N.Y. > They published an all Pennsy calendar for years (I have them all). > The original owner passed away, > but someone else picked it up and continued publication. My 2000 > last page is still > hanging there with no way to replace it (I've misplaced all the > catalogs, etc). > > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Buzz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 18:42:52 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 Erie Builts Frank: I haven't noticed this problem but I did notice that the contour of the carboy end profile on the P1K model does not show in any of the PRR photos that I've seen. There is a photo of a UP, (or maybe it was a Milwaukee Road,) prototype in the latest MR that shows this rear indentation, but I cannot see this in any PRR prototype. Also, my brass models are straight to the end as in the prototype photos. I think Lifelike screwed up here. If you can get over this and close couple the units, (they're coupled pretty far apart), they're pretty nice models and run nice. Larry Park Varieties wrote: > Anyone on the list know of a prototype pic that supports Life-Like > making the Erie-Built engine numbers larger than the Pennsy lettering? > > Frank Brua > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 18:52:49 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Calendar Buzz: I got mine at J D Whistle Stop in Quakertown, PA. http:/jdwhistle.com My calendar shows Audio Visual Designs at PO Box 977, Herkimer, NY 13350. Larry "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > > Hey Guys, > > Need your help! > Does anyone have the address of Audio-Visuals Designs from N.Y. > They published an all Pennsy calendar for years (I have them all). > The original owner passed away, > but someone else picked it up and continued publication. My 2000 > last page is still > hanging there with no way to replace it (I've misplaced all the > catalogs, etc). > > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Buzz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:51:10 -0600 (CST) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: [PRR] PRR: Pittsburgh area I've been offline for 10 days - back home to Coraopolis, PA, so I don't know if this has been mentioned while I was gone. One of the adm offices in the Conway yard now has a PRR logo on it. Workers removing the Conrail sign found the PRR sign underneath and Norfolk Southern has decided to leave it. It is easily visible from the road. The building is near the roundhouse, but nearer the river and a bit to the south. For the PC fans in the group there is a PC flat car, #58911, built 3-53, in the wreck train sitting on the siding at Sewickley. With a 1953 build date it may be ex-PRR. Does anyone keep a list of renumberings of freight cars that occurred in the PRR to PC days? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:02:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New Kadee 58 couplers PRR List, Ditto Doug Kisala's comments on the new Kadee 58 couplers. Take your favorite piece of rolling stock, hold it up to the prototype photo then exchange the couplers for the Kadee 58 and compare again. The difference is noticeable, especially when you have one train fitted with 58 coupler sitting next to a train with the older knuckle couplers. For those of you into model photography, you will love the difference. Yes, these work fine with other Kadee and Intermountain couplers but have some problem with the other manufacturers' knuckle couplers. The knuckle on these oversized couplers needs to be narrowed a bit then all is well. If you are in the Aurora, Colorado area over Presidents' Day weekend in February there will be good buys on Kadee No. 5 couplers at the train/swap meet at Buckingham Shopping Mall (first table to the south of the Mall's bridged fountain). Several of use in our NMRA chapter modular layout are converting as fast as we can obtain the new couplers. Lo the poor train shop owner -- the coupler hounds are upon him! First it was scrap all of the cars with molded on details for cars with separate details, then it was get rid of the plastic wheel sets for metal ones, now it is dump the "dumpy" couplers for the "good one". What next -- operating air hoses?! The only concern we had was durability but a few unplanned crash tests on the club layout dismissed any questions as to their structural integirty. Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Kadee 58 couplers Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:12:31 -0500 How are the new Kadee 58's over rough track or vertical curves (hilltops & bottoms)? Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: RDG2124@aol.com To: dougkisala@yahoo.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New Kadee 58 couplers >PRR List, > > Ditto Doug Kisala's comments on the new Kadee 58 couplers. Take your >favorite piece of rolling stock, hold it up to the prototype photo then >exchange the couplers for the Kadee 58 and compare again. The difference is >noticeable, especially when you have one train fitted with 58 coupler sitting >next to a train with the older knuckle couplers. For those of you into model >photography, you will love the difference. > > Yes, these work fine with other Kadee and Intermountain couplers but have >some problem with the other manufacturers' knuckle couplers. The knuckle on >these oversized couplers needs to be narrowed a bit then all is well. > > If you are in the Aurora, Colorado area over Presidents' Day weekend in >February there will be good buys on Kadee No. 5 couplers at the train/swap >meet at Buckingham Shopping Mall (first table to the south of the Mall's >bridged fountain). Several of use in our NMRA chapter modular layout are >converting as fast as we can obtain the new couplers. Lo the poor train shop >owner -- the coupler hounds are upon him! > > First it was scrap all of the cars with molded on details for cars with >separate details, then it was get rid of the plastic wheel sets for metal >ones, now it is dump the "dumpy" couplers for the "good one". What next -- >operating air hoses?! > > The only concern we had was durability but a few unplanned crash tests on >the club layout dismissed any questions as to their structural integirty. > > Evan > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:41:12 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] HTML Test Just testing to see if I can be active on the list again following AOL's directions to turn off HTML formatting. Thank you Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:06:29 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] What's Next (was:New Kadee 58 couplers) RDG2124@aol.com wrote in part): > > PRR List, > > First it was scrap all of the cars with molded on details for cars with > separate details, then it was get rid of the plastic wheel sets for metal > ones, now it is dump the "dumpy" couplers for the "good one". What next -- > operating air hoses?! > - Replace your .110 tread wheels with .080 (Reboxx or PSC) - what a difference on cars with visible wheels (hoppers e.g.) -weather - Replace your stirrups with A-Line stirrups (They're as fine as the flimsy plastic ones on I/M, P2K, and RC kits, but they're metal and can stand up to operation) -weather - Replace your plastic Metal roofwalks with Plano metal roofwalks. (This is perhaps the most visible and effective upgrade you can make. The down side is that once you've converted one car all the other look like #*&! So you've got to do them all!) -weather - Put some (even vestigial) rodding under your freight cars. It makes a big difference in profile. -weather -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:24:35 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] CT1000 and car loadings Now that I have successfully downloaded the list of sidings and industries from Keystone crossings, is there any record of how many cars each siding generated? If so, what is it called and how does one access that information? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] PRR Calendar-found!! Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:12:31 -0500 List, Thanks to all of you who responded to my question. You were lifesavers. Thanks again, Buzz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 and car loadings Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:16:36 -0500 Norm:- As a member of the PRR traffic department sales force in the 1960's, I can tell you that what you are asking about was called the "Left-Right Report" and was prepared only prior to travel by a business car over a particular section of track. This was one of the most confidential documents on the PRR, so there are none still around. The sales forces kept traffic figures alphabetically by customer assigned to each salesman on line, which may also have been alphabetized by station in outlying areas (all my customers were in Baltimore on line). Only the big customers records were kept above the individual salesman's level. When this was computerized, only this year and last year were kept, so there are none of these still around either. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:24 PM Subject: [PRR] CT1000 and car loadings > Now that I have successfully downloaded the list of sidings and industries > from Keystone crossings, is there any record of how many cars each siding > generated? If so, what is it called and how does one access that > information? Thanks, Norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 16:49:29 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Calendar Larry Reynolds wrote: > > Buzz: > > I got mine at J D Whistle Stop in Quakertown, PA. http:/jdwhistle.com > > My calendar shows Audio Visual Designs at PO Box 977, Herkimer, NY 13350. > > Larry > > "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > > > > > Hey Guys, > > > > Need your help! > > Does anyone have the address of Audio-Visuals Designs from N.Y. > > They published an all Pennsy calendar for years (I have them all). > > The original owner passed away, > > but someone else picked it up and continued publication. My 2000 > > last page is still > > hanging there with no way to replace it (I've misplaced all the > > catalogs, etc). > > > > Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Buzz Guys, I saw these calendars on sale in Barnes and Noble last week at half off. I don't know if they're still there but if you're near one..... Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] What's Next (was:New Kadee 58 couplers) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:59:15 -0500 No Problem ! By doing all of this to the fleet of freight cars that most of us own, we will shrink the fleet to about 12 cars........But boy will they be nice ! Allot of the modelers out there today loose there direction........ \There is Model Railroading,- (G,S,O,HO,OO,HOn3,N,Z, etc) a hobby done your way, \There is Railroad Modeling,- (Copy the real thing in miniature- this is open to the rivet counters), \and there are us who do a little of everything, because we like to.... ( We enjoy the hobby!) If you are a scale "freak" ....go for it ....But don't tell me that this is the only way to go! Even the mighty PRR had two different scales.......Standard 4'81/2" and Narrow Gauge 36", and maybe some others???? And for every rule the had....there is someplace proof that they broke it ! Hell sometimes it's fun to shake the car out of the box ! And then there are the times when only a Westerfield car will do! Or maybe restoring that real car or engine, is the answer.......Thats the fun of it ! Just my 2 cents ! :>) Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR ; The Freightcars List Date: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:02 PM Subject: [PRR] What's Next (was:New Kadee 58 couplers) > > >RDG2124@aol.com wrote in part): >> >> PRR List, >> >> First it was scrap all of the cars with molded on details for cars with >> separate details, then it was get rid of the plastic wheel sets for metal >> ones, now it is dump the "dumpy" couplers for the "good one". What next -- >> operating air hoses?! >> > >- Replace your .110 tread wheels with .080 (Reboxx or PSC) - what a >difference on cars with visible wheels (hoppers e.g.) > >-weather > >- Replace your stirrups with A-Line stirrups (They're as fine as the >flimsy plastic ones on I/M, P2K, and RC kits, but they're metal and can >stand up to operation) > >-weather > >- Replace your plastic Metal roofwalks with Plano metal roofwalks. (This >is perhaps the most visible and effective upgrade you can make. The >down side is that once you've converted one car all the other look like >#*&! So you've got to do them all!) > >-weather > >- Put some (even vestigial) rodding under your freight cars. It makes a >big difference in profile. > > >-weather >-- >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >=================================================== > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Apparently-From: Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:35:14 -0500 From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] PRR Pullman Heavyweight Parlor and Sleeper Cars AT: http://www.prrths.com/GSPEAR_PRR_Pullman.htm my list of PRR Pullman Heavyweight (PRR Standard Weight) Parlor and Sleeper cars is available in Adobe PDF format. This lists the sleeper and parlor cars. Not included are the WWII coach and combine conversion cars. Garry Spear _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 08:46:01 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] PRR Pullman Heavyweight Parlor and Sleeper Cars Garry, Let me join in what deserves to be a great outpouring of praise for your efforts. You have certainly performed an outstanding service to the Society and the entire community of PRR passenger car devotees. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Garry Spear wrote: > > AT: http://www.prrths.com/GSPEAR_PRR_Pullman.htm > > my list of PRR Pullman Heavyweight (PRR Standard Weight) Parlor and Sleeper > cars is available in Adobe PDF format. > > This lists the sleeper and parlor cars. Not included are the WWII coach > and combine conversion cars. > > Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:57:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR Photo info? Hi List, While going thru a box of photos today I come across 2 pics I forgot I had. These are 8X10 B/W's. On the back it states these are : PHOTO BY SAFETY DEPT. EASTERN DIVISION-PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD. Here are the pics. They are large files. http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4s/j1dis.JPG and http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4s/j1dis2.JPG The first photo is of J1 2-10-4 6408. Second photo is same loco with 2 important looking men posing with the loco. The location is Wellsville, Ohio. Atleast that is what is written in pencil on the back. The photos appear to be some kind of open house, circa late 40's?. There is an ND Cabin on display as well. Can anyone add additional info on this event? and the 2 men in the photo? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Query PAM Sound Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:19:11 -0500 Does anyone know a source of repair for a PFM Sound System. I have a Westside M1 that has a unit in it.(PRR content) My friend has a layout with the system but it needs to be repaired. I would love to hear my M1 on his layout. Reply off list unless there is interest. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:46:43 -0500 Sometime back one of the list members posted information about track charts for the Elmira Branch on a website, but I can't find it. Seems to me it may have been Roy Breon or Mark Bej but at my age that could be way off! Also, I'm looking for track diagrams for the local trackage, yards, street trackage, industries, etc. in Williamsport proper. I have plenty of information on Newberry Yard. TIA Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:03:28 EST Subject: [PRR] NY&LB Steam List, Does anyone know the date of the last revenue steam run on the New York & Long Branch RR ? Also ( for extra credit :-) ) Can anyone tell me the road # of the K4 used ? This really would be a big help ! ! Thank You Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:22:52 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Query PAM Sound Chris: Contact Bob Longnecker blong@isomedia.com Bob invented the PFM system and now makes the Foreground System for Bill Peter of PBL. If Bob no longer gets involved with repairs, I'm sure he can point you in the right direction. Larry "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Does anyone know a source of repair for a PFM Sound System. I have a > Westside M1 that has a unit in it.(PRR content) My friend has a layout with > the system but it needs to be repaired. I would love to hear my M1 on his > layout. Reply off list unless there is interest. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:49:39 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] IHC GG1 Does anybody know if the IHC GG1 that Walthers has on sale this onth is the sinlge motor version or the dual version? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:23:28 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC GG1 >Does anybody know if the IHC GG1 that Walthers has on sale this on th is the >sinlge motor version or the dual version? Thanks. All "new" IHC Premier GG-1s are the double motor variety, so that is what Walthers is selling - you just have to watch out for the shadier mail order houses who may have ancient stockpiles...I did find it interesting that only the "fantasy" schemes were labeled Premier on the Walthers site, and the descriptions simply said "upgraded version". But why buy Walthers @ $79.99 when our very own listmeister will supply you, gay-run-teeed genuine, new off the assembly line, two motor, Premier series IHC GG-1s for $69.99! (or less if he's in a discounting mood, which, given that you've forgotten his side business, he may not be in...but its worth a shot ) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:23:23 -0600 Jon--Last revenue run: November 4, 1957, a northbound train pulled by K4sa 612. Source: "The Unique New York & Long Branch" by Don Wood, photo caption page 164. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:37:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam Jon, It may have been K4 5351. That is the last K4 to see regular service anywhere. It was Nov of 1957. The NY&LB was the last stand for K4s so this may be what you are after. K4 612 seen fan trips out that way too I believe, but I think it was before fall of '57. Need to dig for that info....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy "War Emergency" hoppers. Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:43:21 -0500 List: A firend of mine has some undec PRR war emergency hoppers. Was wondering if anybody had photos and/or lettering diagrams for them that you could email to me. I'd like to do 'em up right. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:05:17 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy "War Emergency" hoppers. >List: > >A firend of mine has some undec PRR war emergency hoppers. Was wondering if >anybody had photos and/or lettering diagrams for them that you could email >to me. I'd like to do 'em up right. > >Doug Hi Doug, Fresh from John Teichmoeller's (sp?) book, I know to ask...who made these "PRR war emergency hoppers"? AFAIK, the only ones available are brass? If these are those...then are the sides wood or metal (affects the subclass)? The description of the class (H31 my very bad memory says) in the book is excellent! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam In a message dated 1/5/01 12:44:13 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << It may have been K4 5351. That is the last K4 to see regular service anywhere. It was Nov of 1957. The NY&LB was the last stand for K4s so this may be what you are after. >> That was Pemberton to Camden, NJ on November 12, 1957, according to PRR Color Pictorial Vol. 2. Bob Zoeller0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:30:24 EST Subject: [PRR] NY&LB Steam PRR List, MARK I VIDEO's made a tape on the NY & LB. Lots of Pennsy steam & some diesels plus a little of the CNJ passenger runs. Mark I Videos lists their phone number 1-800-66-MARK1 and address P.O.Box 404, New Milford, NJ 07646 You K-4 fanciers will be thoroughly satisfied! Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR files Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:45:46 -0500 Group, Just started my Bowser E6 Atlantic kit and my files are starting to get gummed up from the casting, I have done a few kits now and the files keep getting worse is there any way to clean them. I was going to wire wheel them but didn't know if that would destroy them. Or am I better off going abuying a new set? I know this is quite a stretch for the PRR board but it is a PRR kit. Thanks Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira branch Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:09:51 -0500 Bill, it was me. Here is a section of the December 22, 1999 message that you refer to. "To Mike Morrow and Peter Reingold who recently inquired about the branch --- My information says that it was called the Elmira branch. The mainline ran from Newberry Jct. to Stanley NY. There it split into the Sodus Bay Secondary which ran up to Sodus Point NY, and the Canandaigua Lake Branch which ran to Canandiagua NY. Interestingly, a while back I was able to acquire copies of all the track charts from someone - probably from this list. The cover says PRR Central Region, Northern Division, Susquehanna District, Elmira Branch. I posted copies of all of them on http://www.idrive.com Go into my storage area "roybreon" as a visitor and select the Elmira Branch folder. In that are about fifteen tiff files of all the sections of the branch. They can be downloaded. You can contact me directly if you have a problem. Maybe others on this list, more knowledgeable than I, can comment on the "makeup" of the Branch." Since that time, the site has been modified by I-Drive. A more direct link is: https://www.idrive.com/roybreon/files/Shared/Elmira_Branch_Maps/ I have never seen any track maps of the Williamsport or Newberry Yard area. I grew up in Williamsport so I remember some of the routes. What information do you have on Newberry Yards?? Roy Breon Pittsford, NY roybreon@netzero.net -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bigler To: PRR-Talk Posting Date: Friday, January 05, 2001 11:50 AM Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch >Sometime back one of the list members posted information about track charts >for the Elmira Branch on a website, but I can't find it. Seems to me it may >have been Roy Breon or Mark Bej but at my age that could be way off! > >Also, I'm looking for track diagrams for the local trackage, yards, street >trackage, industries, etc. in Williamsport proper. I have plenty of >information on Newberry Yard. > >TIA > >Bill Bigler >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII > Shop Safely Online Without a Credit Card http://www.rocketcash.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR Buliders Photos Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:42:29 -0500 HI All, I am offering the following PRR Builders Photos for sale that are scanned at 600 DPI, saved in TIF format, cleaned up in Photoshop and burned to a CD for $2.00 per image. (Minimum of 5 please) They are all scanned from first generation PRR photos. Please follow the link to my collection. You must have Excel to read it. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/PRRphotos.xls The photos that are CURRENTLY available have "yes" in the "Scanned" column all the way to the right of the spreadsheet. The images are approximately 27 megs each, so 25 images can fit on 1 disc. I can also print 8 x 10 photos from my ALPS MD-5000 in Dye Sublimation mode for $5.00 per image. The resolution of the MD-5000 must be seen to be believed. I am always looking to buy either original PRR Builders photos or good quality copies. Trades of copies may also be considered. Please reply to billlane@snip.net if you are interested. Thank you Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: [PRR] Change of email address Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:41:43 -0600 Jerry, I have a new home email address. How do I change it on the PRR talk list?It also needs to be changed on my Allegheny Terminal page. old- gregj@hal-pc.org NEW- greg1950@swbell.net Thanks, Greg Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:07:54 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR files --- Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > Just started my Bowser E6 Atlantic kit and my files > are starting to get > gummed up from the casting, I have done a few kits > now and the files keep > getting worse is there any way to clean them. I was > going to wire wheel them > but didn't know if that would destroy them. Or am I > better off going > abuying a new set? I know this is quite a stretch > for the PRR board but it > is a PRR kit. For what it's worth, I read years ago that rubbing a file with French chalk or soapstone before filing soft metal will help keep the teeth from clogging. As to wire brushing the files, what do you have to lose? They're so plugged up now that you're considering replacing them, so if the wire brush ruins them (which I suspect it will not) you'll just have to replace them. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:19:41 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam last runs Jon, list, NYLB perennials K4sa 612 and K4s 830 did the last runs on 4 November 1957. On 12 November 1957, K4s 5351 made the last PRR K4s revenue run ever on a Pemberton-Camden run. According to Carleton, 5379 was fired up in December to supply steam to an online customer, but she ran by herself (and therefore doesn't count as a revenue run). Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy "War Emergency" hoppers. Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:07:03 -0800 Doug Day asked: A friend of mine has some undec PRR war emergency hoppers. Was wondering if anybody had photos and/or lettering diagrams for them that you could email to me. I'd like to do 'em up right. Bruce Smith added: Fresh from John Teichmoeller's (sp?) book, I know to ask...who made these "PRR war emergency hoppers"? AFAIK, the only ones available are brass? If these are those...then are the sides wood or metal (affects the subclass)? The description of the class (H31 my very bad memory says) in the book is excellent! Undec PRR War Emergency hoppers - if you're talking about the new Life-Like Proto 1000 War Emergency hopper, the car does not match any PRR prototype. The Life-Like car (as well as the Athearn composite car) is a model of an AAR standard War Emergency Hopper. The main difference between this design and the PRR War Emergency cars (Class H31b, rebuilt with steel sides after the War to Class H31c) is that the AAR design cars had hat section braces with sides 11 boards high, while the PRR cars had Z-section braces with sides 8 boards high. If you want to "do 'em up right", you have two options: 1) Replace the hat section braces with Z-section braces. This still only yields an approximate model of the prototype, as the sides are still too high (11 boards vice 8). IMHO, this is a lot of work for a class of cars numbering only 500. 2) Finish the cars for a railroad that had these cars (VGN, ACL, CofGa, Clinchfield, GM&O, C&O, B&O, LV, AA, WAB, IC, IT, ATSF, CB&Q, and SOU). The road names most useful for a Pennsy layout would be LV, B&O, C&O, and WAB. (Hopper cars did not travel as far from the home road as boxcars did; as a general rule, if you're looking for foreign road hoppers for your layout, ones from direct connections would be your first choice, followed by cars from the same region.) More information on the PRR cars can be found in John Teichmoeller's "Pennsylvania Railroad Steel Open Hopper Cars - A Guide for Enthusiasts"; information on the AAR cars can be found in "50 ton War Emergency Composite Hopper" by Robert Hundman, Mainline Modeler, January 1997. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 03:37:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy "War Emergency" hoppers. Ben and all, Ben wrote: << Undec PRR War Emergency hoppers - if you're talking about the new Life-Like Proto 1000 War Emergency hopper, the car does not match any PRR prototype. The Life-Like car (as well as the Athearn composite car) is a model of an AAR standard War Emergency Hopper.>> Correct, but the actually there is more dissimilarities between the two cars than similarities. <> The amount of boards used on the side sheathing is not the big difference and the Round edged flanged channels (REFC or hat braces) are a rather easy fix, but here are some major problems ... the cars are two different lengths PRR = 32'-9" AAR/WE= 33'-11-¾", the slope sheet are different angle because the truck centers are different PRR= 22'-9" AAR= 24' and then there is the issue that the top boards were the side sheathing meet he top core slope in on the ARR/WE car not so with the PRR car. And there are numerous other issues... <> Scrap the idea of using the LL-P2K or the Athearn car and look to the Mantua car. It have been some time since I checked the drawing to this kit but as I recall it was much closer. If you want to make a composite then you might consider the Mantua car lightly scribing the butt-joints where the boards meet. 2) Finish the cars for a railroad that had these cars (VGN, ACL, CofGa, Clinchfield, GM&O, C&O, B&O, LV, AA, WAB, IC, IT, ATSF, CB&Q, and SOU). The road names most useful for a Pennsy layout would be LV, B&O, C&O, and WAB. (Hopper cars did not travel as far from the home road as boxcars did; as a general rule, if you're looking for foreign road hoppers for your layout, ones from direct connections would be your first choice, followed by cars from the same region.) More information on the PRR cars can be found in John Teichmoeller's "Pennsylvania Railroad Steel Open Hopper Cars - A Guide for Enthusiasts"; information on the AAR cars can be found in "50 ton War Emergency Composite Hopper" by Robert Hundman, Mainline Modeler, January 1997.>> Now this is a good start, make it a foreign road car on the PRR via interchange and reciprocal switch agreements. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 08:24:14 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR files Wire brushing files will not destroy their usefullness. Frank Brua Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > Just started my Bowser E6 Atlantic kit and my files are starting to get > gummed up from the casting, I have done a few kits now and the files keep > getting worse is there any way to clean them. I was going to wire wheel them > but didn't know if that would destroy them. Or am I better off going > abuying a new set? I know this is quite a stretch for the PRR board but it > is a PRR kit. > > Thanks > > Sam > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:05:37 -0500 From: ours Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR files There is a specific tool designed for cleaning files, it is called a file card. Looks like a wire brush but the wires are only about a 1/4 inch, most cards are 1.5" wide and 3" long. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:18:12 EST Subject: [PRR] Check out OurTrainRoom_Home Hi List I have written a small program with the express purpose of calculating grades for the Helix. If any of you are interested in it, I have set it up on a web page for download It runs on P.C.'s, is less than 300k. It does require Windows 95 or 98. This program can be put in any directory, makes no changes to your system except to take up <300k of space. I made it to be used with a mouse to make it fail proof , I think. I have had several friends try it out and they like it. Feel free to share it with your friends. You will need to create a shortcut to the program. My way of giving back. I can be contacted at: AlbertSr@aol.com Click on the link below to go to the web page for downloading the program. Enjoy!! Click here: OurTrainRoom_Home ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira branch Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 11:48:40 -0600 Hi Guys, Right now looking through a box of track charts I have, I have found a track chart labeled `Retirement of Newberry Yard Tracks & Industrial Tracks in Williamsport. It is dated 10/27/70. I will keep digging through the box to see what else I can find. Regards, Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Breon" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira branch > Bill, it was me. Here is a section of the December 22, 1999 message that > you refer to. > > "To Mike Morrow and Peter Reingold who recently inquired about the > branch --- > My information says that it was called the Elmira branch. The mainline ran > from Newberry Jct. to Stanley NY. There it split into the Sodus Bay > Secondary which ran up to Sodus Point NY, and the Canandaigua Lake Branch > which ran to Canandiagua NY. Interestingly, a while back I was able to > acquire copies of all the track charts from someone - probably from this > list. The cover says PRR Central Region, Northern Division, Susquehanna > District, Elmira Branch. I posted copies of all of them on > http://www.idrive.com Go into my storage area "roybreon" as a visitor > and select the Elmira Branch folder. In that are about fifteen tiff files > of all the sections of the branch. They can be downloaded. You can contact > me directly if you have a problem. > > Maybe others on this list, more knowledgeable than I, can comment on the > "makeup" of the Branch." > > > Since that time, the site has been modified by I-Drive. A more direct link > is: > > https://www.idrive.com/roybreon/files/Shared/Elmira_Branch_Maps/ > > I have never seen any track maps of the Williamsport or Newberry Yard area. > I grew up in Williamsport so I remember some of the routes. What > information do you have on Newberry Yards?? > > Roy Breon > Pittsford, NY > roybreon@netzero.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Bigler > To: PRR-Talk Posting > Date: Friday, January 05, 2001 11:50 AM > Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch > > > >Sometime back one of the list members posted information about track charts > >for the Elmira Branch on a website, but I can't find it. Seems to me it > may > >have been Roy Breon or Mark Bej but at my age that could be way off! > > > >Also, I'm looking for track diagrams for the local trackage, yards, street > >trackage, industries, etc. in Williamsport proper. I have plenty of > >information on Newberry Yard. > > > >TIA > > > >Bill Bigler > >Big Flats NY > >Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII > > > > > > > Shop Safely Online Without a Credit Card > http://www.rocketcash.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:42:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Buliders Photos HI All, I am offering the following PRR Builders Photos for sale that are scanned at 600 DPI, saved in TIF format, cleaned up in Photoshop and burned to a CD for $2.00 per image. (Minimum of 5 please) They are all scanned from first generation PRR photos. Please follow the link to my collection. You must have Excel to read it. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/PRRphotos.xls The photos that are CURRENTLY available have "yes" in the "Scanned" column all the way to the right of the spreadsheet. The images are approximately 27 megs each, so 25 images can fit on 1 disc. I can also print 8 x 10 photos from my ALPS MD-5000 in Dye Sublimation mode for $5.00 per image. The resolution of the MD-5000 must be seen to be believed. I am always looking to buy either original PRR Builders photos or good quality copies. Trades of copies may also be considered. Please reply to billlane@snip.net if you are interested. Thank you Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Murphy" Subject: [PRR] Lorenzen 100f85 tender Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:06:09 -0500 X-Apparently-From: Dmurp670@cs.com Greetings! Last week I bought a Cary/Bowser N1s on Ebay. The tender on the auction page looked like the Gem H-10 tender that was sold separately at the time for this engine. When disassembling it for stripping today I found an etched plate attached to the underside of the tender deck that states: "Penn. RR tender 100f85 Jan A. Lorenzen" Does anyone know the history of this tender? Was it a kit or custom built? Was Jan Lorenzen a custom builder? Is her the owner of Locomotive Workshop in NJ? Has anyone else ever seen one of these? BTW, the tender looks great!. Thanks. Don Murphy a.k.a. Dr. Steam Custom Painting since 1985 ----- Original Message ----- From: "PRR-Talk" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 1:10 AM Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/06/01 PRR-Talk Digest - Saturday, January 6, 2001 Query PAM Sound by "Chany, Christopher" Elmira Branch by "Bill Bigler" NY&LB Steam by Re: [PRR] Query PAM Sound by "Larry Reynolds" IHC GG1 by Re: [PRR] IHC GG1 by "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam by "Steve Hoxie" Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam by "Gary Mittner" Pennsy "War Emergency" hoppers. by "Doug Day" Re: [PRR] Pennsy "War Emergency" hoppers. by "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam by NY&LB Steam by PRR files by "Sam Vastano" Re: [PRR] Elmira branch by "Roy Breon" PRR Buliders Photos by "Bill Lane" Change of email address by "Greg Johnson" Re: [PRR] PRR files by "robert netzlof" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Query PAM Sound From: "Chany, Christopher" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:19:11 -0500 Does anyone know a source of repair for a PFM Sound System. I have a Westside M1 that has a unit in it.(PRR content) My friend has a layout with the system but it needs to be repaired. I would love to hear my M1 on his layout. Reply off list unless there is interest. Chris Chany ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Elmira Branch From: "Bill Bigler" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:46:43 -0500 Sometime back one of the list members posted information about track charts for the Elmira Branch on a website, but I can't find it. Seems to me it may have been Roy Breon or Mark Bej but at my age that could be way off! Also, I'm looking for track diagrams for the local trackage, yards, street trackage, industries, etc. in Williamsport proper. I have plenty of information on Newberry Yard. TIA Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: NY&LB Steam From: Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:03:28 EST List, Does anyone know the date of the last revenue steam run on the New York & Long Branch RR ? Also ( for extra credit :-) ) Can anyone tell me the road # of the K4 used ? This really would be a big help ! ! Thank You Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Query PAM Sound From: "Larry Reynolds" Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:22:52 -0600 Chris: Contact Bob Longnecker blong@isomedia.com Bob invented the PFM system and now makes the Foreground System for Bill Peter of PBL. If Bob no longer gets involved with repairs, I'm sure he can point you in the right direction. Larry "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Does anyone know a source of repair for a PFM Sound System. I have a > Westside M1 that has a unit in it.(PRR content) My friend has a layout with > the system but it needs to be repaired. I would love to hear my M1 on his > layout. Reply off list unless there is interest. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: IHC GG1 From: Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:49:39 EST Does anybody know if the IHC GG1 that Walthers has on sale this onth is the sinlge motor version or the dual version? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC GG1 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:23:28 -0600 >Does anybody know if the IHC GG1 that Walthers has on sale this on th is the >sinlge motor version or the dual version? Thanks. All "new" IHC Premier GG-1s are the double motor variety, so that is what Walthers is selling - you just have to watch out for the shadier mail order houses who may have ancient stockpiles...I did find it interesting that only the "fantasy" schemes were labeled Premier on the Walthers site, and the descriptions simply said "upgraded version". But why buy Walthers @ $79.99 when our very own listmeister will supply you, gay-run-teeed genuine, new off the assembly line, two motor, Premier series IHC GG-1s for $69.99! (or less if he's in a discounting mood, which, given that you've forgotten his side business, he may not be in...but its worth a shot ) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam From: "Steve Hoxie" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:23:23 -0600 Jon--Last revenue run: November 4, 1957, a northbound train pulled by K4sa 612. Source: "The Unique New York & Long Branch" by Don Wood, photo caption page 164. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam From: "Gary Mittner" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:37:56 -0500 (EST) Jon, It may have been K4 5351. That is the last K4 to see regular service anywhere. It was Nov of 1957. The NY&LB was the last stand for K4s so this may be what you are after. K4 612 seen fan trips out that way too I believe, but I think it was before fall of '57. Need to dig for that info....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Pennsy "War Emergency" hoppers. From: "Doug Day" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:43:21 -0500 List: A firend of mine has some undec PRR war emergency hoppers. Was wondering if anybody had photos and/or lettering diagrams for them that you could email to me. I'd like to do 'em up right. Doug ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy "War Emergency" hoppers. From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:05:17 -0600 >List: > >A firend of mine has some undec PRR war emergency hoppers. Was wondering if >anybody had photos and/or lettering diagrams for them that you could email >to me. I'd like to do 'em up right. > >Doug Hi Doug, Fresh from John Teichmoeller's (sp?) book, I know to ask...who made these "PRR war emergency hoppers"? AFAIK, the only ones available are brass? If these are those...then are the sides wood or metal (affects the subclass)? The description of the class (H31 my very bad memory says) in the book is excellent! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] NY&LB Steam From: Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:26:12 EST In a message dated 1/5/01 12:44:13 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << It may have been K4 5351. That is the last K4 to see regular service anywhere. It was Nov of 1957. The NY&LB was the last stand for K4s so this may be what you are after. >> That was Pemberton to Camden, NJ on November 12, 1957, according to PRR Color Pictorial Vol. 2. Bob Zoeller0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: NY&LB Steam From: Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:30:24 EST PRR List, MARK I VIDEO's made a tape on the NY & LB. Lots of Pennsy steam & some diesels plus a little of the CNJ passenger runs. Mark I Videos lists their phone number 1-800-66-MARK1 and address P.O.Box 404, New Milford, NJ 07646 You K-4 fanciers will be thoroughly satisfied! Evan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: PRR files From: "Sam Vastano" Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:45:46 -0500 Group, Just started my Bowser E6 Atlantic kit and my files are starting to get gummed up from the casting, I have done a few kits now and the files keep getting worse is there any way to clean them. I was going to wire wheel them but didn't know if that would destroy them. Or am I better off going abuying a new set? I know this is quite a stretch for the PRR board but it is a PRR kit. Thanks Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira branch From: "Roy Breon" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:09:51 -0500 Bill, it was me. Here is a section of the December 22, 1999 message that you refer to. "To Mike Morrow and Peter Reingold who recently inquired about the branch --- My information says that it was called the Elmira branch. The mainline ran from Newberry Jct. to Stanley NY. There it split into the Sodus Bay Secondary which ran up to Sodus Point NY, and the Canandaigua Lake Branch which ran to Canandiagua NY. Interestingly, a while back I was able to acquire copies of all the track charts from someone - probably from this list. The cover says PRR Central Region, Northern Division, Susquehanna District, Elmira Branch. I posted copies of all of them on http://www.idrive.com Go into my storage area "roybreon" as a visitor and select the Elmira Branch folder. In that are about fifteen tiff files of all the sections of the branch. They can be downloaded. You can contact me directly if you have a problem. Maybe others on this list, more knowledgeable than I, can comment on the "makeup" of the Branch." Since that time, the site has been modified by I-Drive. A more direct link is: https://www.idrive.com/roybreon/files/Shared/Elmira_Branch_Maps/ I have never seen any track maps of the Williamsport or Newberry Yard area. I grew up in Williamsport so I remember some of the routes. What information do you have on Newberry Yards?? Roy Breon Pittsford, NY roybreon@netzero.net -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bigler To: PRR-Talk Posting Date: Friday, January 05, 2001 11:50 AM Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch >Sometime back one of the list members posted information about track charts >for the Elmira Branch on a website, but I can't find it. Seems to me it may >have been Roy Breon or Mark Bej but at my age that could be way off! > >Also, I'm looking for track diagrams for the local trackage, yards, street >trackage, industries, etc. in Williamsport proper. I have plenty of >information on Newberry Yard. > >TIA > >Bill Bigler >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII > Shop Safely Online Without a Credit Card http://www.rocketcash.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: PRR Buliders Photos From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 21:42:29 -0500 HI All, I am offering the following PRR Builders Photos for sale that are scanned at 600 DPI, saved in TIF format, cleaned up in Photoshop and burned to a CD for $2.00 per image. (Minimum of 5 please) They are all scanned from first generation PRR photos. Please follow the link to my collection. You must have Excel to read it. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/PRRphotos.xls The photos that are CURRENTLY available have "yes" in the "Scanned" column all the way to the right of the spreadsheet. The images are approximately 27 megs each, so 25 images can fit on 1 disc. I can also print 8 x 10 photos from my ALPS MD-5000 in Dye Sublimation mode for $5.00 per image. The resolution of the MD-5000 must be seen to be believed. I am always looking to buy either original PRR Builders photos or good quality copies. Trades of copies may also be considered. Please reply to billlane@snip.net if you are interested. Thank you Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Change of email address From: "Greg Johnson" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:41:43 -0600 Jerry, I have a new home email address. How do I change it on the PRR talk list?It also needs to be changed on my Allegheny Terminal page. old- gregj@hal-pc.org NEW- greg1950@swbell.net Thanks, Greg Johnson ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR files From: "robert netzlof" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:07:54 -0800 (PST) --- Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > Just started my Bowser E6 Atlantic kit and my files > are starting to get > gummed up from the casting, I have done a few kits > now and the files keep > getting worse is there any way to clean them. I was > going to wire wheel them > but didn't know if that would destroy them. Or am I > better off going > abuying a new set? I know this is quite a stretch > for the PRR board but it > is a PRR kit. For what it's worth, I read years ago that rubbing a file with French chalk or soapstone before filing soft metal will help keep the teeth from clogging. As to wire brushing the files, what do you have to lose? They're so plugged up now that you're considering replacing them, so if the wire brush ruins them (which I suspect it will not) you'll just have to replace them. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lorenzen 100f85 tender Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:43:28 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Murphy" > Last week I bought a Cary/Bowser N1s on Ebay. The tender on the auction page looked like the Gem H-10 tender that was sold separately at the time for this engine. Don, I don't know anything about the Jan A. Lorenzen reference, but this post did prompt me to remember that back in about 1971 I assembled, detailed and painted a Cary/Bowser N1s using a Gem "Lines West" tender for a gentleman in Shiremanstown, PA by the name of Walt Weitzel. I often wonder what became of both the model and Walt. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR files Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:00:35 +1100 There are files designed specifically to file soft metals like white meatal, brass and aluminium (or aluminum for you Americans). I have one which I use regularly and it never clogs up. I would suggest you check a specialist engineering tool store. For Australians on the list try "Clip On Tools" (maybe Klip On). I also have a file designed for "Laminex" which is superb for filing plastic kits, again from a specialist tool store. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:34:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR S1 Hello lists, Last week I made mention on one of these lists, which one I don't recall, about a Historic Piece of Model Railroading equipment I had the opportunity to view one day 4-5 or so years ago. I am not sure how many, if any from these lists, had the chance to visit the World Fair in NY back in 1939-41. On display was the famous PRR S1 6-4-4-6 Duplex. That was one of the highlights of the Railroad displays. But inside one of the Railroad Buildings was a large operating model railroad layout that many of the real Railroads sponsered. On this operating layout was an impressive model of that same PRR S1 Loco that sat outside steaming away on rollers. Someone was contracted to build this model S1. First we thought it may have been Raymond Loewy Industries themselves. But after further research, we found out that E.P. Alexander, famous O Scale modeler was the builder of this model. (I believe I quoted the wrong name, Harry Albrecht, on my first post). If anyone can confirm the builder, please let me know. For 2 years that model chugged its way around the layout. Anyone who knew about this loco?, Anyone wonder what ever happened to it? Well, one day a few years ago I had the opportunity to see it. It still survives to this date. One day someone told me they had it in their possesion, but it was stored away and it would take sometime to dig it out. I told them next I come around have it available to see. Well, it was there on my next visit. Looked impressive for something 60+ years old. It was still lettered just like the real S1 when displayed at the fair. AMERICAN RAILROADS spelled out across the tender. It looks like it was upgraded with Can Motors but still retained the outside 3rd rail pickup shoes. It looks like it was layout ready if one was to operate it. At the time I viewed it it was up for sale. Knowing I couldn't swing it, I didn't ask for the selling price. Too bad, I wish I could have added that historic item to my collection. It did sell eventually. I did take a photo of it the day I viewed it: http://http://homepages.go.com/~prrt1/s1.JPG . It is a large file so I hope it works for any who wish to see it. Anyone with anymore info on this model please be sure to let me know. Anyway, it was nice to see something from Steam's heyday, even if it was in model form......Gary . Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:39:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [NE-Rails-and-Signals] PRR S1 List, Dang!!! Messed up the url for the S1 Pic. Hope this works..... http://homepages.go.com/~prrt1/s1.JPG Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR files Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 20:22:27 -0500 As to the question about gumming up files from working on a Bowser E6 kit, files will get dull over time. What you might try is a "file card", or a fine wire brush specially made for clearing metal from files. These "cards" are made of steel or brass wire, and, since the metal is not as hard as the hardened steel of the files, the brush will not harm your files. I've also heard that rubbing some chalk on your files, and then filing alloy or steel, will help prevent metal from building up in the teeth of the files. Andrew Harmantas, cleaning files from down near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:39:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [NE-Rails-and-Signals] PRR S1 List, Dang!!! Messed up the url for the S1 Pic. Hope this works..... http://homepages.go.com/~prrt1/s1.JPG Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:34:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR S1 Hello lists, Last week I made mention on one of these lists, which one I don't recall, about a Historic Piece of Model Railroading equipment I had the opportunity to view one day 4-5 or so years ago. I am not sure how many, if any from these lists, had the chance to visit the World Fair in NY back in 1939-41. On display was the famous PRR S1 6-4-4-6 Duplex. That was one of the highlights of the Railroad displays. But inside one of the Railroad Buildings was a large operating model railroad layout that many of the real Railroads sponsered. On this operating layout was an impressive model of that same PRR S1 Loco that sat outside steaming away on rollers. Someone was contracted to build this model S1. First we thought it may have been Raymond Loewy Industries themselves. But after further research, we found out that E.P. Alexander, famous O Scale modeler was the builder of this model. (I believe I quoted the wrong name, Harry Albrecht, on my first post). If anyone can confirm the builder, please let me know. For 2 years that model chugged its way around the layout. Anyone who knew about this loco?, Anyone wonder what ever happened to it? Well, one day a few years ago I had the opportunity to see it. It still survives to this date. One day someone told me they had it in their possesion, but it was stored away and it would take sometime to dig it out. I told them next I come around have it available to see. Well, it was there on my next visit. Looked impressive for something 60+ years old. It was still lettered just like the real S1 when displayed at the fair. AMERICAN RAILROADS spelled out across the tender. It looks like it was upgraded with Can Motors but still retained the outside 3rd rail pickup shoes. It looks like it was layout ready if one was to operate it. At the time I viewed it it was up for sale. Knowing I couldn't swing it, I didn't ask for the selling price. Too bad, I wish I could have added that historic item to my collection. It did sell eventually. I did take a photo of it the day I viewed it: http://http://homepages.go.com/~prrt1/s1.JPG . It is a large file so I hope it works for any who wish to see it. Anyone with anymore info on this model please be sure to let me know. Anyway, it was nice to see something from Steam's heyday, even if it was in model form......Gary . Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Murphy" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lorenzen 100f85 tender Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:38:22 -0500 X-Apparently-From: Dmurp670@cs.com Jerry, I wrote the seller about the history of this model. Here is what he had to say: ----- Original Message ----- From: DAlexa8054@aol.com To: Dmurp670@cs.com Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: Re: Bowser/Cary 2-10-2 it was mine for many years and i got it from an friend who passed away, i have another one on e-bay now that was his and is rare also.item#534924668 which has a long distance tender and other goodies, i worded the auction all wrong but it is a very rare bird also . sorry i can't help you more, dennis ps. i have a lot of strange pcs. i have bought or traded with other guys for over the years so keep watching as i'm going to sell most as my eyesight is getting bad for ho scale. dennis I checked his other auction., It is a detailed Mantua Mike with a vandy tender and a Kemtron all weather cab. As the generation of model railroaders who fought WWII and then built model railroads in the '50s and '60s leave us, I suppose we'll see more and more of these rare non-brass pieces show up at shows and flea markets. It gives me a chance to buy what I didn't have money for as a kid. It's too bad to see them go but our time will come in turn. Don Murphy The Renovo Dispatcher Custom Painter ----- Original Message ----- From: "jbreon" To: "Don Murphy" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Lorenzen 100f85 tender > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Murphy" > > > Last week I bought a Cary/Bowser N1s on Ebay. The tender on the auction > page looked like the Gem H-10 tender that was sold separately at the time > for this engine. > > Don, > I don't know anything about the Jan A. Lorenzen reference, but this > post did prompt me to remember that back in about 1971 I assembled, detailed > and painted a Cary/Bowser N1s using a Gem "Lines West" tender for a > gentleman in Shiremanstown, PA by the name of Walt Weitzel. I often wonder > what became of both the model and Walt. > Jerry Breon > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:31:20 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Sam's E6s Sam, list, By now everyone has told you about file cards. Should you happen to be short one, I've found wiping my file with a damp rag is good for getting rid of zinc filings as an expedient (it may cause the file to rust, but I haven't had this happen-yet). Before I went to Korea, I was working on the chassis of a Bowser E6s to power an old Alco Models E5s. Ordinarily, riveting valve gear is pretty fun for me, but I was struggling with the valve gear when I packed things away. All I can say is that for my particular kit, the rivets seemed to be less tolerant of excess pressure than I'm used to for a Bowser kit. You probably already knew about Tom Busack's excellent article on detailing PRR E6s Atlantics in the December 1990 Model Railroader; if you don't have it, get it, as you can detail your E6s as far as you want with the help of this article (I used this article and Ron Strachan's from the 9/78 MR when I built my model of the 460). Bear in mind that Tom Busack modeled engines early in their lives when a fair number still had king sized sand domes (like on the H9s). Depending on the period you're modelling, you may want to check photos (according to Fred Westing in Apex of the Atlantics, some E6s engines kept their large sand domes until retirement; most were changed to a smaller sand dome like that on the K4s class. E6s 460 has this smaller dome) and or compromise. Enjoy your kit and the building experience!!! Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:15:45 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Re: [NE-Rails-and-Signals] PRR S1 Gary and List. Very impressive model. Picture is somewhat dark and can't see the tender and some other areas clearly. Would be the envy of any modeler regardless of his scale. Pat McKinney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Excel & my PRR Builders Photos Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 01:27:14 -0500 Hi All, If you don't have Microsoft Excel and were interested in viewing my PRR Builders photos list, you can download a free Excel viewer here. http://officeupdate.microsoft.com/2000/downloadDetails/xlviewer.htm Again, here is the link to my list. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/PRRphotos.xls Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam's E6s Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 09:09:35 -0500 Doug, List, Thank you all for responding!!!! I will get a file card. And I will use chalk once I clean them. Doug as for the article in 1990 I will have to get a copy somewhere, List anybody willing to scan it that has it and e-mail me I would greatly appreciate it. A while back we had a discussion on the list about the E6 being too tall. I printed that post and put it in the kit for safe keeping. When I opened the box I saw it there and I will probably cut down the stack to make it right. As for the sand dome I was looking at pictures and I thought I was crazy because the sand dome on the model looked wrong. Then I looked at a roundhouse kit that I have stashed away and the sand dome was the smaller one. So your post clears up that issue also.. Thank you all for now.. I will have more questions later. Sam >From: Doug Kisala >To: PRR talk >Subject: [PRR] Sam's E6s >Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:31:20 -0800 (PST) > >Sam, list, > >By now everyone has told you about file cards. Should >you happen to be short one, I've found wiping my file >with a damp rag is good for getting rid of zinc >filings as an expedient (it may cause the file to >rust, but I haven't had this happen-yet). > >Before I went to Korea, I was working on the chassis >of a Bowser E6s to power an old Alco Models E5s. >Ordinarily, riveting valve gear is pretty fun for me, >but I was struggling with the valve gear when I packed >things away. All I can say is that for my particular >kit, the rivets seemed to be less tolerant of excess >pressure than I'm used to for a Bowser kit. > >You probably already knew about Tom Busack's excellent >article on detailing PRR E6s Atlantics in the December >1990 Model Railroader; if you don't have it, get it, >as you can detail your E6s as far as you want with >the help of this article (I used this article and Ron >Strachan's from the 9/78 MR when I built my model of >the 460). > >Bear in mind that Tom Busack modeled engines early in >their lives when a fair number still had king sized >sand domes (like on the H9s). Depending on the period >you're modelling, you may want to check photos >(according to Fred Westing in Apex of the Atlantics, >some E6s engines kept their large sand domes until >retirement; most were changed to a smaller sand dome >like that on the K4s class. E6s 460 has this smaller >dome) and or compromise. > >Enjoy your kit and the building experience!!! > >Doug > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! >http://photos.yahoo.com/ > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 13:19:56 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] MRC F-7's I was looking through my dealer newsletters and noticed that Model Rectifier now offers their HO PRR F-7 with antennas installed. Anybody on the list seen one of these? How do the running qualities compare to P2K, Stewart, etc? Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:56:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR S1 David, Interesting about the S1 being part of the Penn Central Collection. I did not know that. Can we assume that the model was displayed at the PRR Headquarters in Philly after the Worlds Fair til the auction? It may have been PRR Property all along. When I saw it a few years back it was in private ownership. I maybe able to find out where it went to and what the actual selling price was. I will see the fellow who had it next week....Thanks, Gary < original snip> David S. wrote.        Greetings to List:  Gary's photo of the S-1 Model struck a memory chord.  The Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS had a bus tour to the PRR "preview" auction conducted by the Penn Central.  Have photo of this S-1 model sitting on the floor among other items to be auctioned.  Acquisition, therefore, occured via the Penn Central auction process March 20-21-22, 1972. David Seidel Altoona,PA Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:56:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR S1 David, Interesting about the S1 being part of the Penn Central Collection. I did not know that. Can we assume that the model was displayed at the PRR Headquarters in Philly after the Worlds Fair til the auction? It may have been PRR Property all along. When I saw it a few years back it was in private ownership. I maybe able to find out where it went to and what the actual selling price was. I will see the fellow who had it next week....Thanks, Gary < original snip> David S. wrote.        Greetings to List:  Gary's photo of the S-1 Model struck a memory chord.  The Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS had a bus tour to the PRR "preview" auction conducted by the Penn Central.  Have photo of this S-1 model sitting on the floor among other items to be auctioned.  Acquisition, therefore, occured via the Penn Central auction process March 20-21-22, 1972. David Seidel Altoona,PA Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 08:14:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia Railfanning From: Jerry Britton Our family will be visiting another family north of Philly this coming weekend. On Saturday, the husband has a work engagement and the girls have ballet. So, the wife asked if there was any place I could take three-year-old Andrew to watch trains. "In Philly? Gee, if I really look into it I suppose I could find someplace!" ZOO came to mind first. I've only seen ZOO from the road that runs behind the Philadelphia ZOO. Ideally, I'm looking for a place where I can park and stay in the car. That keeps Andrew occupied and out of trouble (with the railroad police!). My recollection of the site behind the zoo is that the road is below track level and there is a retaining wall that blocks the view. Is there a better vantage point for ZOO where one can remain in a car? Or is there a better railfanning site in the Philly area where one can watch from a car? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] MRC F-7 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:35:00 -0500 PRR Listers: I have not heard anything if the PRR version will be equipped with trainphone antennas. It would be great if it did. BTW, has this MRC engine been released yet? Has anyone seen one yet in stores? It seems that MRC has been advertising it for eons (usually on the back cover of Model Railroader magazine). Ted ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:15:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] MRC F-7 List, If I recall correctly, the MRC F7 was talked about on this list earlier. It ranked kinda low on the available F Units on the market. I remember someone saying that it has low detail definition and ugly blobs to represent the trucks. I have seen the undecs at train shows and I agree with the depth of the detailing. It may run very well, I don't know. I am sure it has its place in the hobby since it is one of the first entry level models to come equiped with the DCC. Thats about all I recall.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:29:33 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] MRC F-7 Bottom Line, >From discussion on several other lists, don't bother with this model. The detail is poor compared to current offerings. It was designed to sell "trainsets". Happy Rails Bruce >PRR Listers: > >I have not heard anything if the PRR version will be equipped with >trainphone antennas. It would be great if it did. > >BTW, has this MRC engine been released yet? Has anyone seen one yet in >stores? It seems that MRC has been advertising it for eons (usually on the >back cover of Model Railroader magazine). > >Ted > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:25:06 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy "War Emergency" hoppers. Gregerino Martin wrote the following: 2) Finish the cars for a railroad that had these cars (VGN, ACL, CofGa, Clinchfield, GM&O, C&O, B&O, LV, AA, WAB, IC, IT, ATSF, CB&Q, and SOU). The road names most useful for a Pennsy layout would be LV, B&O, C&O, and WAB. (Hopper cars did not travel as far from the home road as boxcars did; as a general rule, if you're looking for foreign road hoppers for your layout, ones from direct connections would be your first choice, followed by cars from the same region.) In Ohio on the Panhandle or Sandusky branch this could also include VGN, AA, & SOU, AA especially on Cincinnati Division to Springfield via Springfield branch at Xenia (pre-1953) or South Charleston (poat 1953) both for interchange with DT&I which operated Ann Arbor as a subsidiary until the Wabash/Norfolk Western deal in 1964. In past discussions, Rick Tipton and I have sp;eculated about strings of VGN, SOU, C&O (and L&N but which did not have the War Emergency Hopper that started this sthread) Moving north via Cincinnati, Xenia, Columbus and Marion form offloading onto lake freighters by the Hewlett auto loaders on the wharf at Sandusky. Again this would be pre-1964 when NW bought the Sanducky branch and thd Sandusky facility. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Elec-pneum switch machines (long) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 08:06:15 -0600 (CST) From: george.pierson@trnty.edu Hello, all, Awhile back I raised a question about when the PRR began using electro-pneumatic switch machines on the Middle Division. I recently had a chance to discuss this with Bob Fredland, who is a professional in rr signaling and a PRR fan. He had some illuminating things to say. According to him, electro-pneumatic power began to be used in the 1890's, mostly in busy locations where fast response was needed. He mentioned the passenger terminal of the Jersey Central in Jersey City, NJ. The PRR got on board early as well, but again, usually only in places where the fast response of the electro-pneumatic machines were needed. For example, in the Loeb book on Altoona, p. 38 (I think), there is a photo from the WWI period of a new double slip switch being installed, and in the foreground is an early electro-pneumatic machine. Bob believes it is a Union Switch & Signal Model 14. There is another photo of this type of machine in one of the Kobus books on Pittsburgh, on the Ft. Wayne curve just west of Pgh Station. According to Bob, the Model 14 was very similar mechanically to the e-p machines that are still in use today, the various A models from US&S. The most obvious difference is that (I hope I get this right) some of the valves and/or relays are built into the model 14 housing while on the model A they are housed separately. Anyway, sometime in the 1920's, US&S began to market the A-1. By 1932, they had advanced to the A-5, which is the machine you can still see today on many former PRR lines. Again, Bob said that the differences between the A-1 and the A-5 are minor. When did e-p machines come into use on the Middle Division? It was a gradual process, and many of the towers familiar to us along the Middle Div did not receive e-p machines until the mid-1950's. The exceptions were when certain towers were closed and their functions remoted to another tower. For example, in the new book on Lewistown, Jim Lynch and Bill Strassner have good detailed descriptions of the various towers in and around Lewistown. At Denholm, there were a number of smaller towers that were remoted to "MIFFLIN" tower, in one case, in 1929. Almost certainly the switches involved were converted to e-p, since according to Fredland, the PRR used the e-p machines almost exclusively. Bottom line - in 1920, there were probably very few (if any) e-p machines on the PRR Middle Division, except in places like Altoona. Which means that even in 1950, the year I used to model, not only WALL tower (which remained "armstrong" until it was closed), but also MIFFLIN, were mechanical plants. That is, they used the conventional pipe-rods to move switch points. While on this same subject, semaphores were also used on the Middle Div almost up to WWII. Position lights, which we think of as quintessentially Pennsy, were gradually being added in the 20's and 30's. I know that semaphores were in use at Port Royal, just east of Mifflin, in 1934. However, the book on Lewistown also mentions that dwarf signals were done with position lights quite a bit earlier, in the early 1920's. So, for my layout c.1920, no round position lights on the signal bridges (sob), and my models of WALL and MIFFLIN will both require armstrong plants. Oh, and BTW, the towers in 1920 were not yet named but still had their telegraphic call letters. Since I am a relative novice in these matters, any mistakes in the above are probably mine. Bob Fredland is a rich fount of signal info and while the above is based on notes I took during our conversation, any errors are almost certainly mine. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 08:06:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Elec-pneum switch machines (long) Hello, all, Awhile back I raised a question about when the PRR began using electro-pneumatic switch machines on the Middle Division. I recently had a chance to discuss this with Bob Fredland, who is a professional in rr signaling and a PRR fan. He had some illuminating things to say. According to him, electro-pneumatic power began to be used in the 1890's, mostly in busy locations where fast response was needed. He mentioned the passenger terminal of the Jersey Central in Jersey City, NJ. The PRR got on board early as well, but again, usually only in places where the fast response of the electro-pneumatic machines were needed. For example, in the Loeb book on Altoona, p. 38 (I think), there is a photo from the WWI period of a new double slip switch being installed, and in the foreground is an early electro-pneumatic machine. Bob believes it is a Union Switch & Signal Model 14. There is another photo of this type of machine in one of the Kobus books on Pittsburgh, on the Ft. Wayne curve just west of Pgh Station. According to Bob, the Model 14 was very similar mechanically to the e-p machines that are still in use today, the various A models from US&S. The most obvious difference is that (I hope I get this right) some of the valves and/or relays are built into the model 14 housing while on the model A they are housed separately. Anyway, sometime in the 1920's, US&S began to market the A-1. By 1932, they had advanced to the A-5, which is the machine you can still see today on many former PRR lines. Again, Bob said that the differences between the A-1 and the A-5 are minor. When did e-p machines come into use on the Middle Division? It was a gradual process, and many of the towers familiar to us along the Middle Div did not receive e-p machines until the mid-1950's. The exceptions were when certain towers were closed and their functions remoted to another tower. For example, in the new book on Lewistown, Jim Lynch and Bill Strassner have good detailed descriptions of the various towers in and around Lewistown. At Denholm, there were a number of smaller towers that were remoted to "MIFFLIN" tower, in one case, in 1929. Almost certainly the switches involved were converted to e-p, since according to Fredland, the PRR used the e-p machines almost exclusively. Bottom line - in 1920, there were probably very few (if any) e-p machines on the PRR Middle Division, except in places like Altoona. Which means that even in 1950, the year I used to model, not only WALL tower (which remained "armstrong" until it was closed), but also MIFFLIN, were mechanical plants. That is, they used the conventional pipe-rods to move switch points. While on this same subject, semaphores were also used on the Middle Div almost up to WWII. Position lights, which we think of as quintessentially Pennsy, were gradually being added in the 20's and 30's. I know that semaphores were in use at Port Royal, just east of Mifflin, in 1934. However, the book on Lewistown also mentions that dwarf signals were done with position lights quite a bit earlier, in the early 1920's. So, for my layout c.1920, no round position lights on the signal bridges (sob), and my models of WALL and MIFFLIN will both require armstrong plants. Oh, and BTW, the towers in 1920 were not yet named but still had their telegraphic call letters. Since I am a relative novice in these matters, any mistakes in the above are probably mine. Bob Fredland is a rich fount of signal info and while the above is based on notes I took during our conversation, any errors are almost certainly mine. George Pierson "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 10:47:38 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Connecting Railroad Mergers From: Jerry Britton Anyone know when the Erie and the Lackawanna merged? I have also seen "pre-Reading" references of the Lehigh Valley involved with the competing station at Harrisburg. Was the LV absorbed by Reading and, if so, when? ----------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies http://www.pit-magnus.com jbritton@pit-magnus.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 10:48:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Competing Railroad Mergers From: Jerry Britton Anyone know when the Erie and the Lackawanna merged? I have also seen "pre-Reading" references of the Lehigh Valley involved with the competing station at Harrisburg. Was the LV absorbed by Reading and, if so, when? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:08:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Competing Railroad Mergers Jerry asked when E and L became E-L. Not sure exactly, but I have E-L Time Table #7 effective 4/26/1964, and at that time the railroad was being operated as two separate lines, essentially; the timetable basically consists of separate timetables for Erie and Lackawanna, bound into one book; the timetable states that Erie and DL&W rules books remain in effect on the appropriate branches; and there is even a reference to rules to operate Erie trains over Lackawanna tracks into Hoboken, as if they were still separate. So I would imagine that the merger couldn't have been much before 1964, or else they were very slow at merging their operating procedures! John Bosin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] TANGENT - Connecting Railroad Mergers Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:03:47 -0500 The Erie Lackawanna was formed IN 1960. I believe that it is in the month of March. Ted -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jbritton@pit-magnus.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:48 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Connecting Railroad Mergers Anyone know when the Erie and the Lackawanna merged? I have also seen "pre-Reading" references of the Lehigh Valley involved with the competing station at Harrisburg. Was the LV absorbed by Reading and, if so, when? ----------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies http://www.pit-magnus.com jbritton@pit-magnus.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:16:57 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Connecting Railroad Mergers The Erie and the Lackawanna Merged in 1962.... On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Jerry Britton wrote: >Anyone know when the Erie and the Lackawanna merged? > >I have also seen "pre-Reading" references of the Lehigh Valley involved with >the competing station at Harrisburg. Was the LV absorbed by Reading and, if >so, when? >----------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >http://www.pit-magnus.com >jbritton@pit-magnus.com > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net www.bluemoon.net - The Blue Moon Internet Corp. V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network alcoman.Railfan.net - Homepage ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] TANGENT - Connecting Railroad Mergers Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:29:30 -0500 Jerry, The Lehigh Valley became part of Conrail. Erie and Lackawanna merged somewhere between 60-61 I believe. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:52:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Connecting Railroad Mergers - 1960? Since there seems to be some doubt, I consulted Lowenthal and Greenberg, The Lackawanna Railroad in Northwest New Jersey; inpassing, on page 217, it states: "After the Erie RR and the DL&W merged in 1960 to form the Erie- Lackawanna . . . ." John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Competing Railroad Mergers Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:21:05 -0500 Jerry:- John Bobsin has it right. The DL&W was merged into the Erie in early 1960, basically beginning (along with N&W absorbing VGN) the modern merger movement that has left us with so few railroads. Interestingly, the President of the DL&W, Bill White, went to the competition, becoming President of Consolidated Freightways. The Lehigh Valley's major stockholder was the PRR, not the RDG. I am not as familiar with the Reading Company's history as that of the PRR, but sometime in the 1920's it went from being known as the "Philadelphia& Reading" to just "Reading" with some sort of corporate reorganization. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:48 AM Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Competing Railroad Mergers > Anyone know when the Erie and the Lackawanna merged? > > I have also seen "pre-Reading" references of the Lehigh Valley involved with > the competing station at Harrisburg. Was the LV absorbed by Reading and, if > so, when? > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Anderson Charles L CRPH Subject: RE: [PRR] TANGENT - Competing Railroad Mergers Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 14:12:48 -0500 Merger mania pre-dates the consolidations of N&W/VGN/Wabash, DL&W/Erie and NYC/PRR/NH... in fact mergers were trendy almost from the very start of railroading. In a sencse the modern "trend" started in the later part of the 19th Century and was a vigorus competition between Corporate Giants. The Reading was by 1870 the largest Rail Coproration in America with the Pennsy close on its heels. RDG had vast holdings in not only its railroad, but, steam shipping and controlled the majority of the then dominatant Anthracite coal industry... it also served major steel plants in the Schuykill and Lehigh Valleys. Of course within a short period of time the steel and bituminous coal interests in western PA and elsewhere grew to there dominant role in the early 20th Century. In fact the enterprise which encompassed the P&R owned both the Lehigh Valley Railroad - 1893, Lehigh & New England and major parts of what we know as the New Haven. It was a matter of capital over extension, vigorous government persuit of corporate anti-trust that undid these "unholy" alliances... that took years and resulted in the divestiture by RDG of its vast coal land holdings, releasing the Valley to persue its own destiny. The new corporation was Reading Company in 1924 and the letter boards of its passenger equipment carried that title til the end...1976. The PRR was always very conservative and very financially prudent which fostered its servival through the 1920's. The natural affiliation with LV allowed iron ore to flow from the Missabe Range to Bethlehem via the Shamokin Branch to the LV main near Packerton. The financial strain on both CSX and NS in over valuing Conrail will limit both future value and ability to "grow" for years to come... at least it doesn't appear that there is significant internal corporate rivalry like that that existed between Al Pearlman and Stuart Sanders back in 1968. Chas -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:48 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Competing Railroad Mergers Anyone know when the Erie and the Lackawanna merged? I have also seen "pre-Reading" references of the Lehigh Valley involved with the competing station at Harrisburg. Was the LV absorbed by Reading and, if so, when? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 14:28:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Railroad Ancestry From: Jerry Britton Thanks to all who responded to my earlier query about the timeframe of the Erie-Lackawanna merger. It has prompted me to raise this question: Is there a web site that tracks the ancestry of railroads? If none is known, I would be willing to start such a site, database driven, under the RAILFANCENTRAL.COM domain name...that way it could be inclusive of all railroads. My thoughts on fields and sample output would be as follows: RAILROAD START END NOTE Conrail 1976 1999 Split to NS/CSX. Erie ? 1960 Merged into Erie-Lackawanna. Erie-Lackawanna 1960 ? Penn Central 1968 1976 Merged into Conrail. Pennsylvania 1846? 1968 Merged into Penn Central. Comments? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad Ancestry Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 14:49:06 -0500 Jerry & List:- I believe Kalmbach is to do this on their new www.trains.com website that went up yesterday. Haven't looked for it there though. By the way, I said ERIE+DL&W started the modern merger movement. Mergers have been a part of railroading since the beginning, but there was pretty much a 40 year hiatus between 1920, when the railroads returned to private control from the USRA nationalization, until 1960. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 2:28 PM Subject: [PRR] Railroad Ancestry > Thanks to all who responded to my earlier query about the timeframe of the > Erie-Lackawanna merger. It has prompted me to raise this question: > > Is there a web site that tracks the ancestry of railroads? > > If none is known, I would be willing to start such a site, database driven, > under the RAILFANCENTRAL.COM domain name...that way it could be inclusive of > all railroads. My thoughts on fields and sample output would be as follows: > > RAILROAD START END NOTE > Conrail 1976 1999 Split to NS/CSX. > Erie ? 1960 Merged into Erie-Lackawanna. > Erie-Lackawanna 1960 ? > Penn Central 1968 1976 Merged into Conrail. > Pennsylvania 1846? 1968 Merged into Penn Central. > > Comments? > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 14:49:56 -0500 Subject: Kalmbach Site (was Re: [PRR] Railroad Ancestry) From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/01 2:49 PM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > I believe Kalmbach is to do this on their new www.trains.com website that > went up yesterday. Haven't looked for it there though. > The new Kalmbach site leaves a lot to be desired...less information than before, links that go to links that go to where you started, etc. I can see the possibility of some improved features, like the event calendar, but in its initial form the search function leaves tons to be desired...like I can't search on events in the state of "PA". I can search on "PA", but that will grab any entry that contains those two letters in sequence. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:03:48 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad Ancestry On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Jerry Britton wrote: >Thanks to all who responded to my earlier query about the timeframe of the >Erie-Lackawanna merger. It has prompted me to raise this question: > >Is there a web site that tracks the ancestry of railroads? > >If none is known, I would be willing to start such a site, database driven, >under the RAILFANCENTRAL.COM domain name...that way it could be inclusive of >all railroads. My thoughts on fields and sample output would be as follows: > >RAILROAD START END NOTE >Conrail 1976 1999 Split to NS/CSX. >Erie ? 1960 Merged into Erie-Lackawanna. 1840's >Erie-Lackawanna 1960 ? 1976 Merged into Conrail >Penn Central 1968 1976 Merged into Conrail. >Pennsylvania 1846? 1968 Merged into Penn Central. > >Comments? >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net www.bluemoon.net - The Blue Moon Internet Corp. V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network alcoman.Railfan.net - Homepage ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 14:35:13 -0600 (CST) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad Ancestry I have this site bookmarked http://www.spikesys.com/Trains/fmly_tre.html Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] Athearn PRR F-7A Genesis is here! Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:40:27 -0500 We received a production model of the Athearn Genesis PRR F-7A today. WOW! Really nice loco! We have posted illustrations in a Special Edition of our Railroad Telegraph Newsletter. Visit our web site at http://www.onerrave.com and click on RAILROAD TELEGRAPH. By the way, the loco looks MUCH better than the pictures! Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items! 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:12:11 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Dale Subject: [PRR] Re: RR Ancestry Comment The Erie Railroad and the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad were merged on Monday, October 17, 1960, as the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad. The hyphen was dropped in 1963. ______________________________________________________________________ I know of no web sites containing merger dates and I think the proposed new web site would be a great idea. HOWEVER, with the EXACT dates and details as above. There is a book: “Railroad Names” by William Edson, that already lists the ancestry of 7300 individual railroads to the month and year. It does not give incorporation dates of older companies nor whether they were “Railroads”, “Rail Roads”, or “Railways”, etc., nor changes after receiverships when “Railroads” became “Railways” or vice-versa. The format of the book is of the form: RR NAME CLASS PREDECESSOR OPERATED DISPOSITION Example: ERIE RR (C&O 38-41) I NEW YORK, L. ERIE & WES 11/1895-10/1960 Part of ERIE-LACK (m) ERIE LACKAWANNA I ERIE and DELA. LACK. & WES.10/1960-4/1976 Part of CONRAIL And so on The book is arranged in alphabetical order and in the disposition column usually gives one of the following: (c = consolidation with other carriers, usually to form a new company. (m) = merged into an existing company, and losing its identity. (l) = leased to an existing company, thereafter retaining its identity as a non-operating railroad. (o) = operated by an existing railroad under terms of an operating agreement. (s) = sale to another carrier. Do you still want to do it? Stephen Dale _______________________________________________________ Get 100% private, FREE email for life from Excite UK Visit http://inbox.excite.co.uk/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:32:56 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad Ancestry For all or much of the period between the end of the USRA and the beginning of World War 2, the Interstate Commerce Commission was pressing for railroad mergers, especially in the northeast as, in their view, there were too many railroads. Everyone you've ever heard of was in the act, arguing for his own particular brand of "Three System Plan", "Four System Plan", "Five System Plan". Mid-size railroads tried to sell plans in which they would be the nucleus of a system, rather than an appendage of someone else. PRR and other big-time railroads made stock purchases, operating agreements and whatever, hoping to build positions which would deter "Washington" from imposing less desirable "solutions" on them. All this was rolling ponderously along when WW2 directed everyone's attention to other matters. I wish I could rattle off a reference or two, but I can't. Best I can offer is that I think Rehor discusses this at some length in "The Nickel Plate Story". The D&H history (Shaunessy? sp?) which was recently reprinted has some comments too, I think. Loree was pretty active in trying to establish D&H as a player rather than a pawn in the merger movement. There seems to have been no doubt that PRR would be the nucleus of one system, whether one of 3 or 4 or 5 was never determined. PRR's concern was that perhaps they were so big that "little guys" might be merged into NYC or B&O or some unGodly creature of ICC and in so doing cost PRR pieces of PRR turf. That may have been a driving force for some of the un-heralded acquisitions in the pre-war decades, such as the interest in LV. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 16:50:24 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Blow-out Sale The tax man cometh so the inventory must goeth. I am having an inventory reduction blow-out sale on all Red Caboose HO Pennsy X-29's I have in inventory. All kits will be sold at 40% discount from MSRP's plus nominal shipping. Contact me directly off-list for information on car types and numbers available. Frank Brua Park Varieties Southgate, MI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: Kalmbach Site (was Re: [PRR] Railroad Ancestry) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:10:57 -0500 Jerry & List:- Sorry about the messed-up post. Tried to copy over Kalmbach's page. Didn't work. On www.trans.com, go to "Railroads" at the top, then go to "Railroad History" down the left side 'till you come to "Railroad Geneaology" and you will find the listing of railroads and date for the nine class I railroad mergers in the US and Canada. Kalmbach has the Long Island listed under Conrail, which is not correct. It was owned by the PRR 1900-1965 but never owned or operated by CR. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: Kalmbach Site (was Re: [PRR] Railroad Ancestry) > On 1/9/01 2:49 PM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > > > I believe Kalmbach is to do this on their new www.trains.com website that > > went up yesterday. Haven't looked for it there though. > > > The new Kalmbach site leaves a lot to be desired...less information than > before, links that go to links that go to where you started, etc. > > I can see the possibility of some improved features, like the event > calendar, but in its initial form the search function leaves tons to be > desired...like I can't search on events in the state of "PA". I can search > on "PA", but that will grab any entry that contains those two letters in > sequence. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:55:15 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Q2 Book A couple of days ago someone was looking for a book on the Q2. There is one for sale on E bay in the general section under scale models. Current bid is $12.50 as of 1 pm CST on the 10th. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:37:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia Railfanning In a message dated 1/8/2001 8:20:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Our family will be visiting another family north of Philly this coming > weekend. You did not say how far "north of Philly" you would be. If in the Jenkintown area, the best place to keep that three-year-old in contact with trains, and feed yourselves also, Stazi Milano, is not open for lunch on the weekends; no difficulty with parking in the main SEPTA lot on a Saturday, and if it warms up a bit, sitting on the station benches...however, would also be all Silverliners, with a slim chance of the wire train. If you are further north than that, a trip to Allentown might give you more variety in freight activities: there are some "spots" which have been mentioned in the this, the CR, and the DandH lists where the access you seek should be available. Another alternative would be the Frankford Junction area: Amtrak, SEPTA on the NEC, plus NJT and freights using the Belair bridge: should be no "problems" in the middle of a weekend day. If you head down to the docks area in Philadelphia, you can get up close to CP/D&H Diesels, plus the SS United States is easily viewed (just tell the child that the Titanic was smaller than the United States). Best wishes. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Taverna" Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 23:01:01 -0500 Gene, I am an O Scale modeler as well and am building an H-10 to match with my Key H-10. I am cutting down the boiler of a Weaver H-10 as it is the same as a Key with an elongated smoke box. I am using parts from Fran Pheil and the never run Sunnyside H-10 to do it. My plan is to use a USH I-1 tender behind it as they were used on a number of H-10's in the east. The main problem is that the H-9 was far more common in the east than the H-10. My druthers would be to build an H-9 instead but I am halfway on the project and may not have the option. I think the I-1 tender is a more palatable option since it should not take as much time to make as a scratch model. Also, using the Grabowski doghouse with an upgraded tender deck and back of the sope sheet, and repositioning the water hatch, really makes the tender stand out. Jim Taverna > >Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders >From: "Doug Kisala" >Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:11:50 -0800 (PST) > >Gene, list, > >Most hand fired H10s engines had 80F81 tenders. These >could have the inward sloping coal bunker or a more >normal coal bunker replacing the original. Stoker >fired H10s engines had 80F81a and 80P81a tenders. >Preserved H10s 7688 has a 80P81a tender, numbered >7624. >All is not lost, however (as far as I know, a stoker >fired H10s has not been imported, but I'd like to be >proven wrong). Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T has, >on pages 60 and 61 shots of H10s 8014 with a tender >from an I1sa decapod, original class 90F82. I'm not >sure of what the H10s class would be; perhaps 90F81? > >My model of the 7688 has a Lines West coal bunker >added to a Bowser low-sided tender; I know now that >this is inaccurate. I plan on using Trainstuff LLC's >90F82 to get closer (though still not exactly right) >to the prototype. > >The 80F81 and 80P81a look like a smaller version of >the 90F75 tender riding behind the stoker fired L1s >class. The truck centers on an 80P81 are 17 feet 8 >inches, while on a 90F75, the truck centers are 19 >feet exactly; this is slightly over 1/8 inch. If you >can live with the oversized rivets, you can use a >Bowser high side tender, which is, more or less, a >90F75. > >By the way, very nice freight cars in RMC!!! > >Doug > >--- Gene Deimling wrote: > > Can anyone help me with information on the class of > > tenders most common to > > H10 locos? I know about the 80F81 used on Lines > > West. My Key model has > > one of those. I need to replace it with tender type > > found on locos in the > > eastern PA and NJ area. > > Thanks and Happy New Year > > > > Gene Deimling > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > > message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! >http://photos.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: RE: [PRR] H10 Tenders >From: "Gene Deimling" >Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:53:12 -0800 > >Doug: >Thanks with the informative response. I appreciate your comment about the >Bowser tender. Unfortunately, I work in 1/48 scale. This will require >some >scratchbuilding. >Gene > >-----Original Message----- >From: Doug Kisala [mailto:dougkisala@yahoo.com] >Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 10:12 PM >To: Gene Deimling; PRR talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders > > >Gene, list, > >Most hand fired H10s engines had 80F81 tenders. These >could have the inward sloping coal bunker or a more >normal coal bunker replacing the original. Stoker >fired H10s engines had 80F81a and 80P81a tenders. >Preserved H10s 7688 has a 80P81a tender, numbered >7624. >All is not lost, however (as far as I know, a stoker >fired H10s has not been imported, but I'd like to be >proven wrong). Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T has, >on pages 60 and 61 shots of H10s 8014 with a tender >from an I1sa decapod, original class 90F82. I'm not >sure of what the H10s class would be; perhaps 90F81? > >My model of the 7688 has a Lines West coal bunker >added to a Bowser low-sided tender; I know now that >this is inaccurate. I plan on using Trainstuff LLC's >90F82 to get closer (though still not exactly right) >to the prototype. > >The 80F81 and 80P81a look like a smaller version of >the 90F75 tender riding behind the stoker fired L1s >class. The truck centers on an 80P81 are 17 feet 8 >inches, while on a 90F75, the truck centers are 19 >feet exactly; this is slightly over 1/8 inch. If you >can live with the oversized rivets, you can use a >Bowser high side tender, which is, more or less, a >90F75. > >By the way, very nice freight cars in RMC!!! > >Doug > >--- Gene Deimling wrote: > > Can anyone help me with information on the class of > > tenders most common to > > H10 locos? I know about the 80F81 used on Lines > > West. My Key model has > > one of those. I need to replace it with tender type > > found on locos in the > > eastern PA and NJ area. > > Thanks and Happy New Year > > > > Gene Deimling > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > > message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! >http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered hopper painting and lettering >From: >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 01:51:20 EST > >In a message dated 12/30/00 11:47:08 PM Central Standard Time, TGREGMRTN >writes: > ><< <> > > I think you mean the Shadowed Keystone don't you? >> > >Yup. Brain disconnected from typing fingers temporarily. > >Bob > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: Re; [PRR] Structure Colors >From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 08:40:13 -0000 > >Your basic problem is that while you may be able to come up with an RGB >mix, >there is no guarantee that your monitor and card combination will display >them the same as mine or anybody else's. It's also necessary to remenber >that HTML and colour monitors postdate the PRR by a good many years. > >| Do the PRR color drift cards have color numbers assigned to them? What >| I'm getting at is can I see the prr colors using the HTML color pallet? > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders >From: "Gregg Mahlkov" >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:55:10 -0500 > >Gene:- > >Check out Central Locomotive Works website. They have been bought out by a >new West Coast outfit and have some parts for the 1/48 O Scale H10 >available. They might have some of the tender parts you need. > >Gregg Mahlkov > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gene Deimling" >To: "Doug Kisala" ; "PRR talk" >Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 1:53 AM >Subject: RE: [PRR] H10 Tenders > > > > Doug: > > Thanks with the informative response. I appreciate your comment about >the > > Bowser tender. Unfortunately, I work in 1/48 scale. This will require >some > > scratchbuilding. > > Gene > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doug Kisala [mailto:dougkisala@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 10:12 PM > > To: Gene Deimling; PRR talk > > Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders > > > > > > Gene, list, > > > > Most hand fired H10s engines had 80F81 tenders. These > > could have the inward sloping coal bunker or a more > > normal coal bunker replacing the original. Stoker > > fired H10s engines had 80F81a and 80P81a tenders. > > Preserved H10s 7688 has a 80P81a tender, numbered > > 7624. > > All is not lost, however (as far as I know, a stoker > > fired H10s has not been imported, but I'd like to be > > proven wrong). Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T has, > > on pages 60 and 61 shots of H10s 8014 with a tender > > from an I1sa decapod, original class 90F82. I'm not > > sure of what the H10s class would be; perhaps 90F81? > > > > My model of the 7688 has a Lines West coal bunker > > added to a Bowser low-sided tender; I know now that > > this is inaccurate. I plan on using Trainstuff LLC's > > 90F82 to get closer (though still not exactly right) > > to the prototype. > > > > The 80F81 and 80P81a look like a smaller version of > > the 90F75 tender riding behind the stoker fired L1s > > class. The truck centers on an 80P81 are 17 feet 8 > > inches, while on a 90F75, the truck centers are 19 > > feet exactly; this is slightly over 1/8 inch. If you > > can live with the oversized rivets, you can use a > > Bowser high side tender, which is, more or less, a > > 90F75. > > > > By the way, very nice freight cars in RMC!!! > > > > Doug > > > > --- Gene Deimling wrote: > > > Can anyone help me with information on the class of > > > tenders most common to > > > H10 locos? I know about the 80F81 used on Lines > > > West. My Key model has > > > one of those. I need to replace it with tender type > > > found on locos in the > > > eastern PA and NJ area. > > > Thanks and Happy New Year > > > > > > Gene Deimling > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Join our SPF database at > > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > > > message "help" to > > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: RE: [PRR] H10 Tenders >From: "Gene Deimling" >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:26:43 -0800 > >Greg: >Yes they are still offering some parts. The tender that they sold with the >H10s is the same model that is on my Key engine. It is the Lines West >tender. It will have a new home soon with a fellow P:48 Pennsy fan in the >midwest. I would like to have something more typical of the East. >Thanks for the hint, >Gene > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg >Mahlkov >Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 8:55 AM >To: Gene Deimling; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders > > >Gene:- > >Check out Central Locomotive Works website. They have been bought out by a >new West Coast outfit and have some parts for the 1/48 O Scale H10 >available. They might have some of the tender parts you need. > >Gregg Mahlkov > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gene Deimling" >To: "Doug Kisala" ; "PRR talk" >Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 1:53 AM >Subject: RE: [PRR] H10 Tenders > > > > Doug: > > Thanks with the informative response. I appreciate your comment about >the > > Bowser tender. Unfortunately, I work in 1/48 scale. This will require >some > > scratchbuilding. > > Gene > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doug Kisala [mailto:dougkisala@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 10:12 PM > > To: Gene Deimling; PRR talk > > Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders > > > > > > Gene, list, > > > > Most hand fired H10s engines had 80F81 tenders. These > > could have the inward sloping coal bunker or a more > > normal coal bunker replacing the original. Stoker > > fired H10s engines had 80F81a and 80P81a tenders. > > Preserved H10s 7688 has a 80P81a tender, numbered > > 7624. > > All is not lost, however (as far as I know, a stoker > > fired H10s has not been imported, but I'd like to be > > proven wrong). Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T has, > > on pages 60 and 61 shots of H10s 8014 with a tender > > from an I1sa decapod, original class 90F82. I'm not > > sure of what the H10s class would be; perhaps 90F81? > > > > My model of the 7688 has a Lines West coal bunker > > added to a Bowser low-sided tender; I know now that > > this is inaccurate. I plan on using Trainstuff LLC's > > 90F82 to get closer (though still not exactly right) > > to the prototype. > > > > The 80F81 and 80P81a look like a smaller version of > > the 90F75 tender riding behind the stoker fired L1s > > class. The truck centers on an 80P81 are 17 feet 8 > > inches, while on a 90F75, the truck centers are 19 > > feet exactly; this is slightly over 1/8 inch. If you > > can live with the oversized rivets, you can use a > > Bowser high side tender, which is, more or less, a > > 90F75. > > > > By the way, very nice freight cars in RMC!!! > > > > Doug > > > > --- Gene Deimling wrote: > > > Can anyone help me with information on the class of > > > tenders most common to > > > H10 locos? I know about the 80F81 used on Lines > > > West. My Key model has > > > one of those. I need to replace it with tender type > > > found on locos in the > > > eastern PA and NJ area. > > > Thanks and Happy New Year > > > > > > Gene Deimling > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Join our SPF database at > > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > > > message "help" to > > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [PRR] PRR in Alabama? >From: "Mark Bej" >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 100 14:52:59 -0500 (EST) > >Steve Hoxie scribit: > > > > I've seen it. (Again just after Thanksgiving). It's been there about a >= > > year. I did take photo's of itlast year. It's in tuscan five stripe. >= > > All my train stuff and photo's are still packed up. It is right on = > > Highway 78 along with some passenger cars and a caboose. From what I = > > heard the place is suppose to be a "wedding chapel". There has been no >= > > one there when I've been by. The E-8 is in fair shape outside. Paint = > > fading a little bit. The inside is completely gutted. You can look = > > throught the rear door and see all the way out the cab windows. I'll = > > try to dig the photo's out in the next day or two. Can you take = > > attachments? or I can bring them when we come down next week. > >Steve, >do you have any more info as to where, loco number, etc.? > >-- >Mark > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders >From: "Gary Mittner" >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:10:00 -0500 (EST) > >Gene, > > Didn't Sunset (Samhogsa) import back in the early 1980's a series of O >Scale PRR H Class Locos? I was just starting out in HO but I remember >seeing O Scale locos at train shows and if I recall, the tenders were >either the Low Side or the one with straight coal bunker. You might want >to look out for one of those. You might get away with using a Low Side >E6 Tender as well. Good Luck with your search....Gary > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art >Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> >http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 >.. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 >and...... >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Fire in Phila.Pa. >From: "Mark Lehman" >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:16:10 -0500 (EST) > > Anyone know what year a fire destroyed the building containing the PRR >records happened? Mark > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] DELMARVA Track Diagrams >From: "Mark Bej" >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 100 15:43:33 -0500 (EST) > >PKMac1@aol.com scribit: > > > > Mark and Fellows. Thought engineering station numbering be it highway or > > railroad is in hundred foot stations. 1+ 00 being 100 ft thus 1372+ 80 >would > > be 137,280 ft.not MP 137.2+80. At least that is the way the PRR >Valuation > > Maps for RoW are. Starting at 0, MP1 would be 52+80 and MP 2 would be >105+60. > >Pat, >on re-reviewing the B&O maps I have, you must be right. 25-some miles from >somewhere near Youngstown to Middlefield, Ohio is much more appropriate a >distance than 137.2 miles. > >-- >Mark > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: VARIABLE SPEED BAND SAW FOR SALE >From: >Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:48:27 EST > >I have a CRAFTSMAN, variable-speed, band saw FOR SALE. It will cut >anything >between plastic, wood and metal. It is about 2 years old. I used it for >the >one inch cars I was building but have since got a metal-cutting band saw >and >it has all but replaced the CRAFTSMAN. They list for around $200 but this >one is available for the first $100 offer. >Contact DICK POOLE Dpoole17@aol.com > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >End of PRR-Talk Digest > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sam cali" Subject: [PRR] off topic: mergers Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:26:26 -0000 Erie and Lackawanna merged in Oct. 1960. There is a book called "Erie Lackawanna Death of an American Railroad, 1938-1992" by H. Roger Grant. It is a good book even if you are not an E-L fan. It gives plenty of info about the formation of Conrail. There was more than one plan for the formation of Conrail. Chessie was also interested in parts of the Reading and E-L. It also tells about almost-mergers of earlier decades. Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] Tower. Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:42:21 -0500 Would like to model a Pennsy tower like the one at Yellow Creek just north of Steubenville, OH or the tower just north of Mingo Jct., OH. Any photos or drawings or even something available commercially that can be kitbashed? Just like to have a couple of them on my layout. All who answered the "war emergency" hopper question...thanks! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:35:28 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Ryan Subject: [PRR] Reading mergers and Zoo railfanning No, the Reading did not merge with the Erie-Lackawanna, as the two are always listed as two of the six bankrupt railroads absorbed into Conrail in 1976. The railroad family tree site someone linked to was incomplete in that it did not list any of the heritage of the Reading Company, my favorite railroad. (Sorry, SPF's. I'm young - you can still convert me.) Its 3 main ancestors were the Philadelphia and Reading, the Philadelphia Germantown and Norristown, and the North Penn. Regarding a good place to view trains at Zoo Junction, there is a parking lot near some of the tracks on the other side from the zoo, but this is only a vague image in my head. Tomorrow I'll be riding the R8 Chestnut Hill West line through there so I can find the exact location for you before the weekend. mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Boxcar in Scranton PA Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:54:42 +1100 Listers, While surfing I found a photo of X26c (I think) Boxcar 109760 in Scranton, PAPRR painted in the Keystone scheme. It looks in perfect condition. Anybody know what is going on here? Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:17:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Boxcar in Scranton PA Graeme,           I assume you saw the X26 that is part of the Steamtown collection? I was there in September. It was located on one of the turntable radius tracks. Look good. The color is on the brown side of Freight Car color. I would have thought it would be a brighter color. Oh well, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:44:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Lists, Finally, it looks like Key Imports is getting the itch to import a re-run of their magnificent HO Scale J1's. A buddy of mine recieved a letter from Mr Mckee about this project and in turn made a phone call Mr. Mckee. Within the next few weeks, myself, my buddy and another J1 fan, will be getting together to dig up info on what and what should not be modeled on this new run. Mr. Mckee does not want to produce a version already done from the 1985 and the 1992 runs. With plenty of J1 photos in hand and the knowledge of these guys here, I am sure we will come up with the info needed to produce the top of the line J. Prelimanary talk amongst us has taken place. Several of us want to see a late 1950's J1 version. Something you would have seen when operating with Sharks and F Units. Also mentioned was something from the war year look. Each detailed for a specific loco or "batch" of locos. We want to see 2 models done. One with Tender Antenna, one without. Both with inside Loco Sanding Lines and neither with the "notch" nose. Also mentioned was the thaught of having all metal Valve Gear, Rods, Tires, Axles, etc, pre-blackened, similar to the Proto 2000 Locos. This will rid of the toy like appearnce. I personally would like to see flexible pipeing between Loco and Tender to represent the water lines. All this info will be gathered and written down and sent to Key in hopes that our info will produce THE best J money can buy. If anyone has any more imput on their preferences, please email me and I will include it with the info we send. Those of you that have or have seen the previous J1's know the quality of Keys work. We want to see Key go one step further and make an even more realistic model. Here hopeing for the perfect J......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] etched brass builders plates Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 23:44:09 -0500 Does anyone know if the vendor who sells PRR etched/cast brass builder's plates & number plates will be at the upcoming Timonium show? If yes, does any one know his name and the approximate location he'll be located at during the show. I may not be able to attend due to work confict and I may have to have someone else pick them up for me. I need numbers for a K4, no specific number in mind, just one that would have made it into the twilight of steam. thanks, Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeff Knorek" Subject: [PRR] Pres. William Wallace Atterbury's personal railroad car Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 23:36:28 -0500 Group- I do not have the photos he is looking for. Do any of you? Thank you- Jeff Knorek >>>>>>>>>>>Begin forwarded message>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Sir: Being a former telegrapher on the PRR of which I worked at Crestline, Delphos, Adams, WP, Junction, Columbia City, Warsaw, Plymouth, Hanna, Hamlet, Wanatah and north on the GR&I from Ft. Wayne at all points to Cadillac, MI. At This point in time, I work on the Military base at Camp Atterbury in Edinburgh, IN. Right now I am involved in the restoration of Brig. Gen William Wallace Atterburys personal railroad car, of which Camp Atterbury was named after in 1942. General Atterbury was also President of the Pennsy beginning 10-01-1925. Would you happen to know anyone or maybe yourself that has any pictures of the inside and out of Atterburys personal car, I believe is known as PRR 180. Any help you could give me would be highly appreciated as it would aid me in the restoration. E-mail address is: rswallace@bcremc.net. Thanks for any help you might be able to render. Roger A. Wallace >>>>>>>>>>>>>end forwarded message>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:45:43 -0800 From: Charles Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia Railfanning Hey Bruce -- no fair making me homesick!!!!! I lived on Washington Lane only about 2-3 blocks from Jenkintown Station and the Stazi Milano. My wife and I have eaten there a few times--good. We still own the house, but are kinda stuck out here in Oregon for who knows how long. (Long story). Chuck Friedlein BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/8/2001 8:20:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > > Our family will be visiting another family north of Philly this coming > > weekend. > > You did not say how far "north of Philly" you would be. If in the Jenkintown > area, > the best place to keep that three-year-old in contact with trains, and feed > yourselves > also, Stazi Milano, is not open for lunch on the weekends; no difficulty with > parking in the main SEPTA lot on a Saturday, and if it warms up a bit, > sitting on > the station benches...however, would also be all Silverliners, with a slim > chance > of the wire train. If you are further north than that, a trip to Allentown > might give > you more variety in freight activities: there are some "spots" which have been > mentioned in the this, the CR, and the DandH lists where the access you seek > should be available. Another alternative would be the Frankford Junction > area: > Amtrak, SEPTA on the NEC, plus NJT and freights using the Belair bridge: > should > be no "problems" in the middle of a weekend day. If you head down to the > docks > area in Philadelphia, you can get up close to CP/D&H Diesels, plus the SS > United States is easily viewed (just tell the child that the Titanic was > smaller than the > United States). Best wishes. > > Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: [PRR] Railroad Merger lists Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 01:22:09 -0500 For anyone interested in railroad merger history, there are two very good sources that I've found: George Drury's "Historical Guide to North American Railroads" and "The Railroad Mergers and the Coming of Conrail" by Richard Saunders. Also, I've been working for the past couple of years on a master list of all American railroad companies chartered since 1790 (yes, believe it not) and their subsequent fates (i.e., when and where they merged). My sources right now are Official Guides from 1889, 1931, 1952, 1977 and various historical studies such as Robert Selph Henry's "This Fascinating Railroad Business" (1945), the aforementioned works, and several websites with raw names. At some point, I hope to contact all the state deparments of state for incorporation records. I am willing to correspond with anyone off the list who's interested in this topic and I will be interested in participating in a database project. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:27:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release From: Jerry Britton On 1/10/01 10:44 PM, Gary Mittner at (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Finally, it looks like Key Imports is getting the itch to import a > re-run of their magnificent HO Scale J1's. For the benefit of the masses, Lee English had told me that the Bowser J, planned for 2002, is on indefinite HOLD. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:29:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - AOL and MIME Format From: Jerry Britton Now that the lists reject HTML/MIME attachments, there are some AOL users who have been as yet unable to disable sending in this format. Can an AOL 6.0 user please send me the directions on how to do this? I will then post it as a web page for future reference. Thanks in advance. -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:00:46 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] AOL and HTML Basically when you contact AOl customer service they tell you to turn off the bold, itallic and underline features in the e mail write window and then tell the person you are sending the mail to that AOl is the 500 pound gorilla and to do it their way. As a caveat they tell you that the AOL Anywhere program accessible by going to aol.com doesn't have html but is plain text. If you have access to a DSL which I do at work I sign on through Yahoo and go the AOL.com route and tyupe my messages to PRR-Talk. I can sign on to AOLl the usual way to read the messages. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:19:44 -0500 Lists: Knowing Key Imports and Samhongsa, I know that the engine will be the best ever. However, I would not be surprised if it costs over $2 grand. :( Bummer that Bowser has put their project on hold.... Ted -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:44 PM To: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Lists, Finally, it looks like Key Imports is getting the itch to import a re-run of their magnificent HO Scale J1's. A buddy of mine recieved a letter from Mr Mckee about this project and in turn made a phone call Mr. Mckee. Within the next few weeks, myself, my buddy and another J1 fan, will be getting together to dig up info on what and what should not be modeled on this new run. Mr. Mckee does not want to produce a version already done from the 1985 and the 1992 runs. With plenty of J1 photos in hand and the knowledge of these guys here, I am sure we will come up with the info needed to produce the top of the line J. Prelimanary talk amongst us has taken place. Several of us want to see a late 1950's J1 version. Something you would have seen when operating with Sharks and F Units. Also mentioned was something from the war year look. Each detailed for a specific loco or "batch" of locos. We want to see 2 models done. One with Tender Antenna, one without. Both with inside Loco Sanding Lines and neither with the "notch" nose. Also mentioned was the thaught of having all metal Valve Gear, Rods, Tires, Axles, etc, pre-blackened, similar to the Proto 2000 Locos. This will rid of the toy like appearnce. I personally would like to see flexible pipeing between Loco and Tender to represent the water lines. All this info will be gathered and written down and sent to Key in hopes that our info will produce THE best J money can buy. If anyone has any more imput on their preferences, please email me and I will include it with the info we send. Those of you that have or have seen the previous J1's know the quality of Keys work. We want to see Key go one step further and make an even more realistic model. Here hopeing for the perfect J......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: FW: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:29:52 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 9:20 AM To: 'mittner@webtv.net'; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Lists: Knowing Key Imports and Samhongsa, I know that the engine will be the best ever. However, I would not be surprised if it costs over $2 grand. :( Bummer that Bowser has put their project on hold.... Ted -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:44 PM To: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Lists, Finally, it looks like Key Imports is getting the itch to import a re-run of their magnificent HO Scale J1's. A buddy of mine recieved a letter from Mr Mckee about this project and in turn made a phone call Mr. Mckee. Within the next few weeks, myself, my buddy and another J1 fan, will be getting together to dig up info on what and what should not be modeled on this new run. Mr. Mckee does not want to produce a version already done from the 1985 and the 1992 runs. With plenty of J1 photos in hand and the knowledge of these guys here, I am sure we will come up with the info needed to produce the top of the line J. Prelimanary talk amongst us has taken place. Several of us want to see a late 1950's J1 version. Something you would have seen when operating with Sharks and F Units. Also mentioned was something from the war year look. Each detailed for a specific loco or "batch" of locos. We want to see 2 models done. One with Tender Antenna, one without. Both with inside Loco Sanding Lines and neither with the "notch" nose. Also mentioned was the thaught of having all metal Valve Gear, Rods, Tires, Axles, etc, pre-blackened, similar to the Proto 2000 Locos. This will rid of the toy like appearnce. I personally would like to see flexible pipeing between Loco and Tender to represent the water lines. All this info will be gathered and written down and sent to Key in hopes that our info will produce THE best J money can buy. If anyone has any more imput on their preferences, please email me and I will include it with the info we send. Those of you that have or have seen the previous J1's know the quality of Keys work. We want to see Key go one step further and make an even more realistic model. Here hopeing for the perfect J......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:50:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release List, Thanks for the private emails on this news. Will relay the request for DCC ready considering that is the way the hobby is heading. Also wanted by several is the elimination of the Coasting Drive gearbox. I agree. Dump it. If I heard correctly on the phone last night, the Dealer Cost for the J's is going to be aproximately 1100.00+ to 1300.00+ Ofcourse retail will be higher. That wasn't mentioned but figure atleast $1500.00 for the engine. Not out of line with recent releases. Boy I hope it dosn't hit the $2,000.00 mark! This Loco hasn't been announced publicly yet as far as I know, so when is this to be released? 1 year was mentioned last night, but I doubted that. Although it could happen being the tooling is already there from the 2 earlier releases. Hopefully we are just looking for Key to just upgrade it here and there. One more thing I forgot to mention last night. For you N Scalers, Mr. Mckee has hopes to produce this in that scale also. I believe the N Scale T-1's were just imported or about to be anyway....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:27:32 -0800 (PST) From: James Anderson Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch: ICC Valuation notes Hi all. In 1998 I visited the National Archives and copied the Field Engineering Notes for the ICC Valuation of the Elmira & Williamsport RR (part of the Elmira Branch). Due to time constraints, I only copied notes pertaining to the section Trout Run to Roaring Branch in Pennsylvania. I've finished transcribing these into a Word document, and can offer them to anyone interested in having a copy. (this paragraph is for newbies) The ICC Valuation was done in the early 1900s to fix a value to the railroads, which the ICC could then use to set freight and passenger rates to ensure a fair return to the stockholders without the public being gouged. At least that was the general idea. So a massive survey, detailing the railroads' physical plant, was undertaken in order to determine the rrs' value. The Field Engineering notes are the notes taken in the field during the survey. They list structures, signals, locations, etc. etc. ad nauseum. The E&W RR survey was done in 1915. It includes sketches of stations, with major dimensions, floor plans, and descriptions of construction (type of siding, type and number of windows, type of roof, etc.) These sketches and notes are included in this copy. I can send the file in for different ways, depending on your preference. 1. as a MS Word document file (195 KB) 2. as a Zipped MS Word doc file (137 KB) 3. as an Adobe Acrobat pdf file (98 KB) 4. as a Zipped pdf file (84 KB) I can also send it via regular mail, if you would prefer that. If you want it that way, though, I'm going to have to ask $5.00 to cover printing and shipping costs. So if you want a copy, drop me a line and let me know how to send it to you. Jim Anderson PRRT&HS 3995 Thorndale, Pa. Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: Re: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:23:36 -0500 J's in N scale wow!! can't wait Mark Franke ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Mittner To: Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 9:50 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release > List, > > Thanks for the private emails on this news. Will relay the request > for DCC ready considering that is the way the hobby is heading. Also > wanted by several is the elimination of the Coasting Drive gearbox. I > agree. Dump it. > If I heard correctly on the phone last night, the Dealer Cost for the > J's is going to be aproximately 1100.00+ to 1300.00+ Ofcourse retail > will be higher. That wasn't mentioned but figure atleast $1500.00 for > the engine. Not out of line with recent releases. Boy I hope it dosn't > hit the $2,000.00 mark! > This Loco hasn't been announced publicly yet as far as I know, so > when is this to be released? 1 year was mentioned last night, but I > doubted that. Although it could happen being the tooling is already > there from the 2 earlier releases. Hopefully we are just looking for Key > to just upgrade it here and there. > One more thing I forgot to mention last night. For you N Scalers, > Mr. Mckee has hopes to produce this in that scale also. I believe the N > Scale T-1's were just imported or about to be anyway....Gary > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 > and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:12:50 -0500 Mark & list:- Key has promised these (N scale J-1's) before. Rio Grande was taking reservations about 6 years ago! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Franke" To: "Gary Mittner" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release > J's in N scale wow!! > can't wait > Mark Franke > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Mittner > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 9:50 AM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release > > > > List, > > > > Thanks for the private emails on this news. Will relay the request > > for DCC ready considering that is the way the hobby is heading. Also > > wanted by several is the elimination of the Coasting Drive gearbox. I > > agree. Dump it. > > If I heard correctly on the phone last night, the Dealer Cost for the > > J's is going to be aproximately 1100.00+ to 1300.00+ Ofcourse retail > > will be higher. That wasn't mentioned but figure atleast $1500.00 for > > the engine. Not out of line with recent releases. Boy I hope it dosn't > > hit the $2,000.00 mark! > > This Loco hasn't been announced publicly yet as far as I know, so > > when is this to be released? 1 year was mentioned last night, but I > > doubted that. Although it could happen being the tooling is already > > there from the 2 earlier releases. Hopefully we are just looking for Key > > to just upgrade it here and there. > > One more thing I forgot to mention last night. For you N Scalers, > > Mr. Mckee has hopes to produce this in that scale also. I believe the N > > Scale T-1's were just imported or about to be anyway....Gary > > > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> > > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > > .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 > > and...... > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:43:01 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release From: "William J. Ayers" List, This is exciting news about Key's future release of a J1. I have their 1989 T-1 with coasting drive. I hate it and several people I have talked to about it agree that it is worthless. I hope Key listens to their customers. Gary Mittner wrote: > I was told there is a way to "lock" the gear box into a regular > drive. I have heard this also and was advised not to do it as it will adversly affect the running qualities of the engine when in reverse, but will not affect forward. I was told that the best solution is to remove the coasting drive and replace it with a regular gear box. Does anyone know of a less drastic method of disabling the coasting drive? Thanks in advance. Bill Ayers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:25:04 -0500 Listers (who have coasting drives) Could you explain what is coasting drive? I do have brass engines but none have this feature. Is it flywheel operated? Does the engine coast when you cut the current off? Mechanically, how does it work? Ted -----Original Message----- From: William J. Ayers [mailto:prrq2@cal-net.net] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 11:43 PM To: Gary Mittner; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release List, This is exciting news about Key's future release of a J1. I have their 1989 T-1 with coasting drive. I hate it and several people I have talked to about it agree that it is worthless. I hope Key listens to their customers. Gary Mittner wrote: > I was told there is a way to "lock" the gear box into a regular > drive. I have heard this also and was advised not to do it as it will adversly affect the running qualities of the engine when in reverse, but will not affect forward. I was told that the best solution is to remove the coasting drive and replace it with a regular gear box. Does anyone know of a less drastic method of disabling the coasting drive? Thanks in advance. Bill Ayers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:26:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Ted, Coasting drive is a feature that lets the loco free wheel. If you set the loco on the track (no power applied), you can actually push it and the Drivers will turn. Nice feature for flat level surfaces. But, can you imagine your multi mult hundered dollar loco decending a 2-3 percent grade being pushed (pushed very fast with the throttle off) with a 50 car freight and or 10 car heavy weight Passenger train? With a Coasting Drive gear box there is no friction to slow the train down. It s free wheeling. And what is worse is aving a relatively sharpe curve at the base of the grade. You better have sceneary for your loco to run into or your prize and joy will roll to the floor. Anyway, that should help you understand what Coasting Drive Gear Boxes are. Actually, the gearing in the gear box "floats" and diisengages from the axle when power is not applied and if an engine senses a grade. On a down grade you can actually over come the free wheeling by applying more power. Not recommended either as you will go even faster down the hill and derailment is a sure thing. The cure. Lock it out, or rid of the gear box. I only have 2 locos with this Coasting Drive. The Streamlined 3768 K4 and a J1 #6464. Both from Key Imports. I seldom run them but if I do I only run them on a club layout where it is safe....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:05:53 -0500 Gary: Thank you for your note. It is kinda surprising to me that Key and Samhongsa would still have this feature on their engines. Overall, the concensus amongst model railroaders is that the coasting drive is more of a liability than an asset. Imagine your $1000 brass engine having no brakes! I even crinch when my Athearn GP-35's derail. I just find it weird that Key has not stopped offering engines with coasting drive. When you think about it, one can achieve the same "coasting" effect with the momentum and braking features on standard or DCC control units. Ted -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 9:27 AM To: Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Future PRR J1 Release Ted, Coasting drive is a feature that lets the loco free wheel. If you set the loco on the track (no power applied), you can actually push it and the Drivers will turn. Nice feature for flat level surfaces. But, can you imagine your multi mult hundered dollar loco decending a 2-3 percent grade being pushed (pushed very fast with the throttle off) with a 50 car freight and or 10 car heavy weight Passenger train? With a Coasting Drive gear box there is no friction to slow the train down. It s free wheeling. And what is worse is aving a relatively sharpe curve at the base of the grade. You better have sceneary for your loco to run into or your prize and joy will roll to the floor. Anyway, that should help you understand what Coasting Drive Gear Boxes are. Actually, the gearing in the gear box "floats" and diisengages from the axle when power is not applied and if an engine senses a grade. On a down grade you can actually over come the free wheeling by applying more power. Not recommended either as you will go even faster down the hill and derailment is a sure thing. The cure. Lock it out, or rid of the gear box. I only have 2 locos with this Coasting Drive. The Streamlined 3768 K4 and a J1 #6464. Both from Key Imports. I seldom run them but if I do I only run them on a club layout where it is safe....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:14:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS Monthly Newsletter Next Friday, 19 January 2001 the monthly PRRT&HS newsletter Number 3, January 2001, will be released. As previously stated it will no longer be available on this site. In order to keep receiving the e-NEWS you must sign up for it by sending a BLANK message addressed to: PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@egroups.com The URL for the e-NEWS site is: http://www.egroups.com/group/PRRTHSe-NEWS If you experience any trouble please contact me directly at: abbuchan1@home.com Thanx. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Crossings website Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:27:50 -0500 Lists: Is Jerry Britton having trouble with his Keystone Crossing website? e-mails to him come back undeliverable as well and I haven't seen a posting on PRR talk in days. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR K4 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:43:41 -0500 Group, I always have things turning in my head. I was looking through my Pennsy power 3 "page 176" and noticed a K4 with disk drivers. Has anybody tried to model this engine? Where did you get the drivers, Did you start with a bowser model? Any info would help After I get done with my E-6 I might give this a disk drivered K4 a try. Also in realation to the 3 pictures on this page what is attached to the smokebox just below the stack? Thanks in advance. Sam PS Thanks to Bruce for snail mailing me the E-6 article. Got it today! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:51:46 -0500 Hi List, O.K. here's one for you-all. I know what a smashboard is, I'm just not sure what it really does. I was at the former site of the Crook Horn movable bridge on the PRSL Ocean City Branch the other day. The remains of the smashboard signal mast and it's associated control pipe linkage to the bridge are still in evidence (barely). Also, the mast of the distant (approach) signal is still standing. From what little is still there, it appears the smashboard was mechanically linked directly to the bridge mechanism, so when the bridge was closed and aligned for rail traffic the smashboard was in the 'up' position. When the bridge was open for boat traffic the smash- board would be in the 'down' position. There was no visible mechanical interlock to the distant signal, but I'm sure it was electrically connected. Here's the question. What function does the smashboard actually perform?? In the down position (bridge open) obviously a train passing this "signal" would SMASH into it. What happens next? The smashboard could not physically stop the train. It might cause some minor damage to the locomotive and certainly would destroy itself, it might even wake-up the Engineer, but that's about all. Was it interlocked to a derail (electrically or mechanically), or did it activate automatic train stop equipment on the locomotive? I've seen these signals on the PRR, NY&LB & the PRSL at movable bridges. I just never paid any attention as to how they functioned. The book of rules, various employee timestables, and signal instruction books I have do not mention anything about this device. Therefore, dear friends, I am counting on you to help me solve this mystery. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Buzz PRRT&HS #271 BTW, This would make a great little detail to model, once we figure out how it works. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:59:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - We're Back!!! From: Jerry Britton Listers: When your computer goes bad, you replace it... When your ISP becomes a problem, you get a new one... When your telephone company becomes a problem... okay, I'm still pondering that one! >From last Friday afternoon until a few minutes ago, the servers at DSOP.COM, which play host to the PRR-Talk, Reading-Talk, Conrail-Talk, other lists, and the "Keystone Crossings" and other web sites, have been off-line due to a TelCo (telephone company) issue. Idiots!!! I can't be 100% sure that we are up to stay, as they may be doing on-going testing, but it certainly has been an aggravating experience! Sorry for the unscheduled break in our programming. Let's get back to the fun! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:03:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 Sam, There was once a Brass Import (Custom Brass) of this K4 with Disc Drivers. Probably pushing $425.00 now days. Styrene maybe used to represent this on a Bowser Driver. The "box" you see near the stack is the location of the Front End Throttle. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:04:38 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Philly Area Railfanning From: Jerry Britton Thanks to the many listers who made recommendations on where to take my three-year-old for railfanning in Philly for last Saturday. We spent most of the time at 30th Street Station, on the parking deck overlooking the locomotive facility. Andrew enjoys watching anything that mores on the rails, and there always seemed to be locos moving at that location. We saw numerous passenger trains come and go, including one of the new Acela trains. There were two Acela consists parked in the coach yard. I was surprised in their appearance, as they were either "dirty" or the metal they are made of tends to "tarnish". Not impressive. We also saw some foreign road power, as well as a CSX freight on the high line. We also spent about half an hour at ZOO, but it wasn't very busy. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:09:39 EST Subject: [PRR] G31c? I have a book of diagrams (no photos) that indicate that this sub class has "drop ends" ls this true of all cars in the sub class. What car does the old Atlas "O" scale gondola most closely match (it has fixed ends) Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:20:19 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Buzz, You guess right. It was a last ditch attempt to wake up a distracted engineer. "First you gotta get their attention" ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > > Hi List, > > O.K. here's one for you-all. > I know what a smashboard is, I'm just not sure what it really does. > I was at the former site of the Crook Horn movable bridge on the > PRSL > Ocean City Branch the other day. The remains of the smashboard > signal mast and it's > associated control pipe linkage to the bridge are still in evidence > (barely). Also, the > mast of the distant (approach) signal is still standing. > From what little is still there, it appears the smashboard was > mechanically linked directly > to the bridge mechanism, so when the bridge was closed and aligned > for rail traffic the > smashboard was in the 'up' position. When the bridge was open for > boat traffic the smash- > board would be in the 'down' position. There was no visible > mechanical interlock to the distant > signal, but I'm sure it was electrically connected. > Here's the question. What function does the smashboard actually > perform?? In the down position > (bridge open) obviously a train passing this "signal" would SMASH > into it. What happens next? > The smashboard could not physically stop the train. It might cause > some minor damage to the locomotive > and certainly would destroy itself, it might even wake-up the > Engineer, but that's about all. > Was it interlocked to a derail (electrically or mechanically), or > did it activate automatic train stop > equipment on the locomotive? > I've seen these signals on the PRR, NY&LB & the PRSL at movable bridges. I just never paid any attention as to how they functioned. The book of rules, various > employee timestables, and signal instruction books I have do not mention anything about this device. > Therefore, dear friends, I am counting on you to help me solve this mystery. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Buzz > PRRT&HS #271 > > BTW, This would make a great little detail to model, once we figure > out how it works. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:24:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Trackside North of Washington From: Jerry Britton I have received my stock of Morning Sun's new book "Trackside North of Washington". Once again, it is superb! Anyone with an interest in the Northern Central Branch, between Harrisburg and Baltimore MUST HAVE this book. In particular, there are several pages of action at York Haven, just (railroad) west of Wago Junction, where the Northern Central Branch and the Atglen & Susquehanna (Low Grade) Branch come together. Worth noting, a half dozen photos or so are labeled as being at York Haven, but they are really at Cly, about another mile west. You can tell as a full interlocking is visible and the first interlocking between all four tracks was at Cly. York Haven only had turnouts across tracks 3-4 to facilitate local switching. Of particular interest, are photos of the local out of Enola making deliveries/pickups at the paper plant at York Haven. The photos are from October 1957 and the motive power is an H9!!! The text explains that the engineer was so close to retirement that the PRR allowed him to continue with steam. A diesel took over a month after he retired. SO, steam made it very late on the York Haven line!!! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:44:19 -0700 Actually a smashboard is designed to give undeniable proof that an engineer ran a stop signal. Kinda hard to claim you didn't see it when it's busted up. In actuallity it of course couldn't stop a train, and it wasn't intended to. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:20:19 -0500 Andy Miller wrote: > Buzz, > > You guess right. It was a last ditch attempt to wake up a > distracted > engineer. "First you gotta get their attention" ;-) > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:35:35 EST Subject: [PRR] Greg's Cocoa Beach Presentation on - Highlighing & Hi Gize, Greg Martin has had the handout for his Cocoa Beach presentation put on a web page for those who could not attend. It is under Greg's corner. For those of you who are on other lists would you be so kind as to post this info to those lists so other members of our modeling community can also access this information. Thanks Al Stump Click below. Click here: OurTrainRoom_Home or copy this line below to your browser. http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/beautiful/819/TGM_Corn.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] Smashboards - follow-up Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:30:26 -0500 Hi guys, Thanks to all of you who contributed answers to my "Smashboard" question. I had a suspicion that the function was just as simple as the name, but I really hoped there would be a little more sophistication to their operation. Oh well. Again, thanks to all. Buzz PRRT&HS - 271 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 18:08:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Schuylkill Line Hello List Any info on grade improvements on the line between 52nd st. yards and Barmouth? I found a 1890s photo of the Bala station. The ROW is at the station level. When I visited the station I found the ROW at least 10 feet lower than the station level. I'm thinking that at some time the grade was reduced between 52nd St and Barmouth. Mark L ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 18:20:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Saxby&Farmer Interlocking machines Any signal and interlocking people know when the PRR started using interlocking plants. What I'm asking is did the PRR use interlocking systems when the main line (2 track) was built. I assume these would be S&F machines(ARMSTRONG) imported from England. Thax Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [CYBER] PRRT&HS Monthly Newsletter Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:57:53 -0500 This Friday, 19 January 2001 the monthly PRRT&HS newsletter Number 3, January 2001, will be released. As previously stated it will no longer be available on this site. In order to keep receiving the e-NEWS you must sign up for it by sending a BLANK message addressed to: PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@egroups.com The URL for the e-NEWS site is: http://www.egroups.com/group/PRRTHSe-NEWS If you experience any trouble please contact me directly at: abbuchan1@home.com Thanx. Al ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Monthly Newsletter Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:57:53 -0500 This Friday, 19 January 2001 the monthly PRRT&HS newsletter Number 3, January 2001, will be released. As previously stated it will no longer be available on this site. In order to keep receiving the e-NEWS you must sign up for it by sending a BLANK message addressed to: PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@egroups.com The URL for the e-NEWS site is: http://www.egroups.com/group/PRRTHSe-NEWS If you experience any trouble please contact me directly at: abbuchan1@home.com Thanx. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:39:41 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 Sam, list The shot of K4sa 5484 is a nice one, isn't it. She was built by Juniata in October 1927 and sold for scrap in December 1956. As near as we (Gary Mittner comes to mind along with other steam fans) can figure, the K4sa conversions were done around 1945. Hirsimaki's Black Gold Black Diamonds Vol I has, on page 138, a chart of PRR engines assigned by division on 1 September 1945. There were 5 K4s conversions done, but only 3 are listed as of 1 September 1945 (wish we knew which ones). The 5 K4sa engines were 612, 1985, 5405, 5481, 5484. Rail Classics is going to import a model of K4sa 612, but she had web spoke drivers late in life; I don't know what drivers they're going to use. These solid drivers didn't last long; by the 50s the K4sa engines returned to web spoke drivers. As Gary Mittner's already pointed out, the boxy housing below the stack is part of the front end throttle assembly (15" piston valves vs 12" for a standard K4s and circulators, which show up as bolt head looking things low on the firebox sides were the other modifications that created a K4sa). Doug --- Sam Vastano wrote, in part: > > > I I was looking through my Pennsy Power 3 "page 176" and noticed a K4 with disk drivers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:12:07 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Clearance Items / Consignment Shop From: Jerry Britton Please pardon a rare commercial blurb... At "Merchandise Service" there are two new sections: Clearance Center and Consignment Shop. When you do a search, you set the "Manufacturer" field equal to either of the aforementioned. The reason I post this notice to the list is that there are some unique, out-of-production items in there that I know are of interest to far more than those who subscribe to the "Merchandise Announce" list...and they are priced to sell quickly. Once an item is sold out, it will disappear from the search results. For instance, Union Station Products car sides, Middle Division decals, Microscale decals, Champ decals, Digital Image Works videos, Atlas track, IHC FoM and interchange service passenger cars (older runs), Pikestuff pipe fence, various detail parts, various other rolling stock, numerous Atlas locomotives, etc. One very special deal is a Digitrax Radio-Equipped Chief Starter Set for only $400!!! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:24:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Future Key J1 (little long) List, Whew, I am J-ONED out. Last week I made mention of the furter re-release of the Key PRR J1. This past week the reservation slips were sent to the dealers. I did not know that till last night. Last night, myself and 2 others got together to figure out what J's should be released this time around. We spent 5 hours looking over photos and wriitten info. I also added to the list of items that Key will look over what several posters from this list recommended. All this will be sent to Key very soon. Other prelimanary things I found out tonight was that Key was planning on having another builder other than Samhongsa to produce this run of J's. We can't have that!!! We highly recommend Key to stick with Sam. This is a must. Prelimanary dealer cost was set at 1095.00 if using another builder. Add about $150.00 + or - if it is a Sam built loco. Retail is ??? Also, reservations for 125 need to be filled for the loco's to be produced. I don't see any problem there. The dealer sheet also showed a N Scale J1. Dealer price is set at $695.00. Retail is ??? As to the versions we discussed, this is what we came up with. No War era J's this time . I think we came to the conclusion that 3 of the 4 J1's produced thus far are war era locos. These new J's are going to concentrate on late steam era. We recommended Key do J1a #6418, a Columbus Div Loco.. This loco has Train Phone equiped Tender and Cast Loco Frame Version, (Keys earlier imports are models of the Fabricated Frame Version). It is our hopes that Key will follow our suggestions on the specific detailing of this loco. Other Locos fall into this version as well but we had to come up with a specific number (6418). The other Loco we are thinking of is either J1 6155, 6160 or 6171. We need to look at more photos to confirm specific detailing. Right now we are leaning towards #6160, a Pittsburgh Div. Loco. No Train Phone, Cast Frame Version and detailed for this paticular Loco. I also suggested that Key make additional Tenders available. (Both with Antenna and without) Basically we are asking Key to produce their earlier Js again but with upgraded detailing, specific detailing and newer DCC technolgy consideration. If they can do that, they have a winner! Thats about all I can report. It is up to Key now on what they decide is best for the model. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:12:48 -0800 Doug Kisala writes: > As Gary Mittner's already pointed out, the boxy > housing below the stack is part of the front end > throttle assembly (15" piston valves vs 12" for a > standard K4s and circulators, which show up as bolt > head looking things low on the firebox sides were the > other modifications that created a K4sa). Did only the K4sa locomotives have the front end throttle? I was under the impression that some others did too, but I may have been mistaken. Why weren't more K4s converted into K4sa? Were the improvements not enough to justify the cost? There certainly were a LOT of K4s modifications and detail differences, weren't there? Very confusing indeed. -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Key J1 (little long) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:21:03 -0600 Gary--You suggested J1a 6418 as a Coumbus Div loco. Another you might want to consider is 6423 which appears in Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940's - 1950's" on pages 152 and 153 in a memorable photo sequence on Horseshoe Curve. It appears again banging thru a rail crossing in Ohio in Herron Rail Services' video "Pennsylvania Glory Volume 2". This would offer something to both East and West fans. Just thought you might like to know. I am just an interested observer on this one. As far as I have been able to determine, J's were not operated on the Susquehanna Division. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:01:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Future Key J1 (little long) Steve, Thanks for the note. We had approximately 75 roster type photos and a handful of closeup detail photos when we looked over the J's to "pick" 2 to suggest Key to model. We needed to pick a J1a with a Tender equiped with a Train Phone Antenna system, Cast Frame, Short Sand Lines, No Notch Nose and certain other details. We found a nice photo of 6418 that shows all these plainly. I believe there were others to choose from but we had to settle for just 1. J1a 6423 would have been a perfect speciman too but it lacked the Train Phone in that photo. It may have recieved another J Tender with antenna later from when that pic was taken, but we needed photo proof showing an antenna equiped J1a. This photo we used may have been the one included in the Mainline Modeler J1/J1a article from years ago, or it may have been another we had on hand. The J1 and the J1A suggested to Key are completely different from their previous runs. This is what Mr. Mckee asked. Mainly it is in the Cast Frame detailing. Not much of a difference but a difference none the less. For those who can afford them, this will add 2 more versions, making a total of 6 different J1, J1A's on their roster/collection....Gary PS: I do not believe the J's hit the Susq. Div. But, never say never.... Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Future Key J1 (little long) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:27:50 -0500 Gary & group, Did the J's ever run through Mahoningtown? Youngstown? Thanks Sam >From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) >To: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Future Key J1 (little long) >Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:01:29 -0500 (EST) > >Steve, > > Thanks for the note. We had approximately 75 roster type photos and >a handful of closeup detail photos when we looked over the J's to "pick" >2 to suggest Key to model. We needed to pick a J1a with a Tender >equiped with a Train Phone Antenna system, Cast Frame, Short Sand Lines, >No Notch Nose and certain other details. We found a nice photo of 6418 >that shows all these plainly. I believe there were others to choose from >but we had to settle for just 1. J1a 6423 would have been a perfect >speciman too but it lacked the Train Phone in that photo. It may have >recieved another J Tender with antenna later from when that pic was >taken, but we needed photo proof showing an antenna equiped J1a. This >photo we used may have been the one included in the Mainline Modeler >J1/J1a article from years ago, or it may have been another we had on >hand. > The J1 and the J1A suggested to Key are completely different from >their previous runs. This is what Mr. Mckee asked. Mainly it is in the >Cast Frame detailing. Not much of a difference but a difference none the >less. For those who can afford them, this will add 2 more versions, >making a total of 6 different J1, J1A's on their >roster/collection....Gary > >PS: I do not believe the J's hit the Susq. Div. But, never say never.... > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art >Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> >http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 >.. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 >and...... >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:54:34 EST Subject: [PRR] P1K Erie-builts Just picked mine up. Does anyone have a suggestion as to the best match for the antenna masts on this unit? Also, and I apologize if it has been discussed before, what again are the differences for the steam generator equipped units, besides the shutoff valve on the side of the pilot? Is there a photo which demonstrates those differences? Thanks, Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] P1K Erie-builts Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:08:52 -0600 Bob--Nothing has been developed especially for the Erie builts; however, Cal Scale 190-409, antenna supports for Baldwin Sharks, looks as good as we need to get. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:33:30 -0500 From: "Michael E. Hauk" Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch and S&NY remnant photos If anyone is interested, I uploaded some photos I took on a recent exploratory trip around Ralston and March Hill, PA, and then along the Susquehanna & New York roadbed from Marsh Hill to Towanda. The photos are at www.photopoint.com. Enter using my email address, look under the S&NY album. Thanks! Mike H. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DPoole17@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:31:33 EST Subject: [PRR] SUCKERED AGAIN >From a Fox News source. Just in case your blood pressure wasn't up enough. As you know, the Clinton's had to establish residence in New York for Hillary to run for the Senate. So they bought that big house-BUT there was no place for Secret Service which has statutory responsibility to protect the First Family. So, a special 'safe area' was built. NOW, the Clinton's are charging them rent! Perfectly legal. BUT...! It just happens that their rent is about the same amount as the Clinton's' mortgage payment! In short, we taxpayers pay for the Secret Service addition, AND the Clinton's mortgage! Dang deal, eh? What will it take for the American public to wake up? Don't you just feel like you've been suckered again, fellow taxpayers? I say let's pass this info throughout the length and breadth of this Nation to shake the American people into a heightened state of anger upon knowing they have been cheated during their long sleep by the trustees they have appointed to look after their interests. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] SUCKERED AGAIN Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:53:55 +1100 Hmm The house must be near a PRR mainline otherwise why is it on this EMail group!!!! I get enough of my own politicians without yours having to intrude into my hobby!!!!! Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. Subject: [PRR] SUCKERED AGAIN > >From a Fox News source. Just in case your blood pressure wasn't up > enough. > As you know, the Clinton's had to establish residence in New York for > Hillary > to run for the Senate. So they bought that big house-BUT there was no > place > for Secret Service which has statutory responsibility to protect the > First > Family. So, a special 'safe area' was built. NOW, the Clinton's are > charging them rent! Perfectly legal. BUT...! It just happens that > their > rent is about the same amount as the Clinton's' mortgage payment! > In short, we taxpayers pay for the Secret Service addition, AND the > Clinton's > mortgage! Dang deal, eh? What will it take for the American public to > wake > up? Don't you just feel like you've been suckered again, fellow > taxpayers? > I say let's pass this info throughout the length and breadth of this > Nation > to shake the American people into a heightened state of anger upon > knowing > they have been cheated during their long sleep by the trustees they have > appointed to look after their interests. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Erie Built Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:00:09 +1100 Someone sent in a critique in the last couple of weeks on the P1K Erie built. Unfortunately I lost it, Can someone repost it!! Thanx. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 05:37:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Athearn Genesis PRR EH15a's Jim, Thanks, sorry to be so slow in responding but I have had a ton of mail to catch up on since I got back from the best Model Railroad meet I have been to that was held in Cocoa Beach, FL (just s small plug, but true). Vagel I scanned through the post and will reply in context... << Vagel, The Genesis PRR F 7 is dead nuts on for the group of PRR F7s that it is supposed to represent.>> "Dead nuts" in color scheme and lettering as well as the chosen phase which they represent as EF-15A's. The MOST accurate PRR F-7 created to date! <> Jim's right and we went over this a bit in Cocoa Beach. You can find a photo of this unit in service if you can secure a copy of Jim's article in Prototype Modeler when he did the Athearn/Atlas kitbash in JAN/FEB 1985 issue. I did a lot of research to insure what the Pennsy Modeler got when he shelled out for this loco's were absolutely correct units in every way or I would have bothered. The MRC...why bother, antenna mast or not they are not accurate. << I have copied Greg Martin on this message as he is a Pennsy pro and assisted Athearn in preparation of the Genesis PRR F 7. I will let Greg explain to us the group of PRR F7s that the Genesis model matches. OK Greg . . . you take over from here, but before you do, read Vale's message below. Jim Six>> I'm not a Pro and I didn't get paid. I wanted them correct and they ask me to help so I did. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jim Six" Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 2:49 AM Subject: Athearn Genesis PRR EH15 (Was Re: Genesis PRR F 7) <> I would broaden my library Vagel. I can't wait unit Withers does their PRR F-unit book. I have seen some of the JD Hahn Photos and I am fortunate to have one to aid a modeling article in the future (thanks Paul). <<1) The number boards on the Athearn release look like the F 3 arrangement (low profile, matching curve contour of the nose, and with marker lamp integrated into the number board assembly, rather than the high profile box number board with separate marker lamp characteristic of the F 7).>> Correct, I call these the "streamlined numberboards," Paul Lubliner calls them the "bullet number board" and Ed Ryan of Athearn calls them the "Long numberboard" and you are correct they are this type. <<2) "Blatt" horn (one front, one rear) characteristic of F 3 series rather than the three chime horn (two front, one rear) characteristic of PRR F 7 series.>> Yes, they are the "Blatt horn" a standard EMD horn as delivered... Remember these are (F-7's) EF-15A's not EF-15's, let there be no doubt! <> I am not sure how the paint scheme would determine the class, but these units have a 2" "PRR BUFF" stripe and lettering and the Keystone mounted with the emblem, not the numbers, high on the door. This was the standard for units shopped after 1951 and match the lettering diagrams to the letter, I worked them up for the model from the originals. << which was a late order for F 3 helper locos, which were ordered in A-B-A sets of 4500 HP locos, rather than the A-B-B-A sets of 6000 HP F 3 road freight locos (EF15) ordered earlier. F-7's would be PRR class EF-15A. The difference between EF15/EF15a and EH15 is the gearing (65 mph for EF and 50 mph for EH). The PRR F 3 helpers (EH15) from EMD featured the stainless steel grills most often considered as spotting features of F-7's, yet with the front and rear "Blatt" horns.>> I see you know some of the history of the PRR F-unit, but there is very definite cut off dates to all this that I will not go into here and some of the units you refer to are the EMD F-5's... Yikes there's that funny phase again! generalizations are okay but... <> OOPS, nope you are wrong. This is one of the first ten EF-15A's Pennsy received from a delivery made in April of 1949, and oh by the by one of the very first F-7's produced by EMD for any railroad. There were 10 Aunits and 10 B-units in this configuration. I think that makes 5 set of 6000hp. Now if you want something a little different then you could change the numbers and add a 2" stripe 14-inches above the main horizontal stripe on each door to represent the "helper" or "SNAPPER" units that Pennsy bought in 4500 HP sets. Oh, yea did I mention that there were EF-15A's delivered just like the units Athearn decided to do? One Problem, the paint used by Athearn is the only correct "Buff" (forget Dulux Gold) marketed to date, but hopefully I will have that fixed in the near future with MICROSCALE. Oh, Yea the Brunswick Green/DGLE is going to be a bear to match with the special "Satin" shine. So we need to wait and see if I can persuade Athearn to recreate a limited run of the "Snapper" units perhaps this Fall. <> Vagel and all I hope this all helps. Buy with confidence but buy. These units are going to be very limited perhaps less than 1000 nation wide. YOU NEED TO GET YOUR ORDERS INTO YOUR DEALERS NOW! Force you dealer to have Athearn take BACK ORDER on these units or it could be a long time before we see them again. There are a lot of roadnames to get into the market and coming back to the beginning make take years. I will venture to guess that within 5 years these first units will sell for 5 times their value. To be fore warned is to be fore armed... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:18:04 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] K4s engines with front end throttles Matthew, list, Other K4s engines with front end throttles included (but are not necessarily limited to, pending photographic evidence) K4s 5473, K4s 3847 (Franklin B Poppet valves), and K4s 5399 after her second trip to Lima (the first was to get poppet valves; the second was to get a front end throttle and improved steam passages). K4s 5473 had a curved-sided 130P75 and other internal modifications, perhaps including a revised superheater (the source is Pennypacker and Staufer's Many Faces of the Pennsy K4, which is why I'm treating it with caution as far as the superheater). As far as why there weren't more K4sa engines (the 5 being rebuilt to K4s sometime in the period 1945-46), I would guess that the PRR's worsening financial condition after WWII was one reason. Another comes from Hirsimaki's Black Gold Black Diamonds, Volume I. The PRR was, for many years, fixated on a single locomotive of 6000 horsepower (one result being the ill-fated T1 class). A stoker fired K4s engine produced about 3500 IHP (indicated, or boiler HP) and about 3000 HP at the rail after deducting machine friction, pulling the tender, etc. A K4sa with larger piston valves would increase the amount of steam going to the cylinders at all speeds, but would be most beneficial at higher speeds. I can't quote numbers because, to my knowledge, no K4sa ever went to the Altoona test plant. Suffice it to say that the K4sa produced more horsepower, but way less than the 6000 desired. Finally, the one passenger experiment that was producing huge dividends (instead of tinkering at the margins) was the set of EMD E-7/EP20 diesels 5900-5901. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:17:24 EST Subject: [PRR] Political CRAP Please keep your politics and views on such off this board. We all get enough of that crap fed to us via TV, radio, papers and magazines. This is for PRR subjects and should stay that way. What gives, Jerry? Is this where we want to go? Wind up like the AOL Train Boards? Please..........NO!!!!!! Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:26:43 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles >From the latest PRRT&HS e-NEWS ""I think the ideal modeling article would emulate the reviews that Tom Olsen does of HO equipment. I'd preferably like some factual information on the prototype and some overall assessment of the model be it an engine, car, structure, signal or some right-of-way feature that is under evaluation. I don't want to publish a detailed step by step of how to modify a specific model to make it a more accurate representation of the PRR prototype, with photos of every step. How to accurately portray a Pennsy 4-track right-of-way, using prototype photos and model photos, would be superb. It's difficult to give exact guidelines, but I'd like a strong tie between actual and model." " - Keystone editor Chuck Blardone Aw come on Chuck! So in fact, the PRRT&HS has NO INTEREST in modeling articles. Lets stop the BS and 'fess up. What you want are reviews, and that is all. What I thought we were asking for was articles on modeling. This is the reason that first class pennsy modelers such as Greg Martin won't even affiliate themselves with the society any longer. How long will it take the powers that be to wake up and smell the brakes shoes burning? It won't be too many years before the folks who worked for "the company" are dead and gone, and THEN who will support the PRRT&HS. Aren't we already worried about sustaining membership. Geez, cut me a break! End of rant Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WLHoss@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:26:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Laserkits on Egroups This may or may not be of interest to those of you who build kits. Bill <> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:54:53 -0600 From: "Colm Chomicky" Subject: Re: [PRR] Urban Legends Sorry, I could not resist commenting, but perhaps this has some relevance to preventing future contamination of the PRR list. With respect to the Clinton e-mail, it smacked of "Urban Legend". In fact most mailings of this kind are created by an individual (far down the chain) who relishes the idea of saturating the web with their creation. (presumably a non-criminal form of virus). Before emailing the list, or any of your friends, family, or acquittances you can avoid the potential embarrassment of being flamed by simply providing the same standard of care in authenticating such information in the same fashion that one would authenticate the details of an engine model, etc. For any who don't know what an Urban Legend is http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/blclinton.htm?terms=clinton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:19:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles Listers - For a couple of years now I have sat on the sidelines and listened to this on going debate between historian and modeler and I'm just a little bit confused. Some of us are talented enough to be able to research a subject and become an expert. Some of us are talented enough to be able to turn this information into a viable replica that in most cases will be around longer than all of us. In defense of the PRRT&HS I have found SOME of it's members to be more than helpful supplying pictures and drawings and all sorts of useful information. There are a few that feel that commercially reproducing parts of the Pennsylvania Railroad makes a company terribly wealthy to the point where the armored trucks have to bring in the money. This is hogwash. I have just returned from the Cocoa Beach, PM-modelers show where I participated in a round table discussion where it was quite apparent of a crying need for the small manufacturer who can afford to do small limited runs that are accurate. Who better to guide the accuracy than a historian or one of the "company" who was there? Gentleman...we are all running the same locomotive, we are all trying to preserve our favorite railroad. Let's get together and make it a smooth trip. As a manufacturer it is no harder for me to do it right than to do it wrong. However if I tried to become an expert on everything I wouldn't have time to manufacture. So I want to thank all of the members of the society for their help and all the first rate modelers such as Bruce Smith, Greg Martin, and also a fella named Jim Kelly whom I have never had the privilege of meeting but whose information has been priceless for modeling my favorite railroad. And year after year raising the standard that we are all trying to obtain. And if you are wondering who I am, I'm Merlin, one of the Wizards of Wilmington. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR M1 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:37:05 -0500 Group, Has anybody had any experience fixing a bend in a brass loco? I just got an M1 on e-bay with a bent cab. Any suggestions on how to fix? I am going to paint after the fix so I can use some filler. But the bend is pretty severe. Thanks in advance Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR M1 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:39:50 -0500 Sam, What type brass? Cast or sheet? Is it a simple distortion (wracked out of square), or a bend, dent, etc? If the cab is cast you are going to have some difficulty trying to correct it. Some carefully applied heat and some pulling may remove most of the bend, but you will still have to fill what is left over. Filling will probably cover rivet and other details so you want to keep this to a minimum. If the cab is sheet brass you have a better chance of restoration, providing you can remove it from the rest of the locomotive and then unsolder each of it's components (Not for the faint of heart). Experience with good soldering techniques is important here. Using a resistance soldering unit or a microflame torch are your best choices. Once the "panels" (sidewalls, front & rear walls, roof, etc.) are all carefully unsoldered from each other it is fairly easy to straighten bent or dented pieces, or re-form the roof contour. Work slowly & carefully at all times. You can do most of the major shaping by hand. Keep hammering to a bare minimum as this will stretch the metal, and distort any detail. You should be able to restore all the major pieces to their original shape without any filler. Clean the solder joints so they are bright and clean. Re-tin if necessary. Apply soldering flux at each joint and resolder carefully, keeping everything aligned & square. Again, a resistance unit, or micro-torch will make this much easier than using an iron or a gun. Hope this helps. At least now you have an idea what you're in for. Best of luck. Do that M1 proud! Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 12:37 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR M1 Group, Has anybody had any experience fixing a bend in a brass loco? I just got an M1 on e-bay with a bent cab. Any suggestions on how to fix? I am going to paint after the fix so I can use some filler. But the bend is pretty severe. Thanks in advance Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:59:13 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles Attaboy, Bruce, say it like it is. I'm working on my N-6 project. By the time I'm done I'm hopimg to have Kitbuilts of Five of the N-6 phases in HO, one in O; scratch built out of styrene 2 in HO and one in O, and a description on superdetailing the Model Power N6b probably as 1950s-1960s MOW. I'm toying with the idea of scratchbuilding three more, one ea in HO, S and O with a brass underframe and wood body. And just for yucks I might dig up the Gloor Craft N6 kit in N Scale. I'm hoping for detailed parts lists for each scale plus step by step instructions on building it. If the following by Blardone is accurate, I'm sure they won't want what I've got to offer other than my prototype material but, if you want that you've got to take thee entire package. Bruce, you're right. I know I guy who hired on the PRR in Xenia at 18 in 1967. He's now a 53-year-old retired Conrail Track supt. That's as young as real Pennsy employees get. I'm 45 and was 12 on the day of the merger. Jerry Britton, Derek, and others, modelers all, on this are considerably younger. Tom V. Ps. Health, marital and computer problems have delayed my writing. I'm coming to the end of the latter two and and trying to adapt better to the former. "Aging is not for the timid." George Bernard Shaw ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:22:03 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR M1 Sam asked: >Has anybody had any experience fixing a bend in a brass loco? I just got an >M1 on e-bay with a bent cab. Any suggestions on how to fix? I am going to >paint after the fix so I can use some filler. But the bend is pretty severe. BONDO!! Seriously, I would: 1) Dissassemble the locomotive as completely as possible and then gently begin to peen out the bent areas against a smooth firm surface. I doubt that you will ever get it back to the original surface mechanically, so fill the remaining voids with bondo, sand it smooth and paint it. Frankly, if it works, it might be worth an article in a publication that welcomes modeling articles ("How I restored a bent brass loco") or 2) Paint (if not already painted) as it is, park it next to a crane with a large heavy load awkwardly positioned on the ground next to the cab, with the crane operator looking at the load, scratching his head, the engineer looking at the crane operator and shaking his fist and a crowd of "brass hats" rashing over from the nearest office! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:39:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR M1 Sam, I seen that Gem PRR M1 on eBay and I seen the bent cab. Ouch!!! For those who did not see it, the cab looks like it was the first thing to hit the table when the loco was dropped. The cab overhang is bent upwards. Looks like it will bend back down but you will probably have a fault line. Putty may be of help. It will however cause a problem with the rivit detailing. If you had one of those hard to find etched brass Mellor Cabs overlays, that would be of big help. Finding one of those though is next to impossible. Good luck in your job ahead. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR M1 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:18:02 -0500 Thanks to all that responded!!! It is sheet brass and I might just take some pictures before & after and try my hand at an article! Sam Vastano >From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR M1 >Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:22:03 -0600 > >Sam asked: > > >Has anybody had any experience fixing a bend in a brass loco? I just got >an > >M1 on e-bay with a bent cab. Any suggestions on how to fix? I am going >to > >paint after the fix so I can use some filler. But the bend is pretty >severe. > >BONDO!! Seriously, I would: > >1) Dissassemble the locomotive as completely as possible and then gently >begin to peen out the bent areas against a smooth firm surface. I doubt >that you will ever get it back to the original surface mechanically, so >fill the remaining voids with bondo, sand it smooth and paint it. Frankly, >if it works, it might be worth an article in a publication that welcomes >modeling articles ("How I restored a bent brass loco") > >or > >2) Paint (if not already painted) as it is, park it next to a crane with a >large heavy load awkwardly positioned on the ground next to the cab, with >the crane operator looking at the load, scratching his head, the engineer >looking at the crane operator and shaking his fist and a crowd of "brass >hats" rashing over from the nearest office! > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:25:48 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] RE B60 underbody The sketch I just sent is for a B60b, not a B60. They are different. Published fotos will show that the battery box is in a distinctly different location on the two cars. So I assume that all of the other stuff is also different. Sorry for any confusion. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:14:13 EST Subject: [PRR] A Simple Request Traffic on this list is becomming, at times, fairly Heavy. For those posting modeling questions or discussions, please post the SCALe in the message header. That way, the rest of us could skip discussions of a model in a scale that didn't interest us (read N scale J-1) Dick Ross CLeveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:25:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] A Simple Request From: Jerry Britton On 1/19/01 7:14 PM, VVA249@aol.com at (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: > Traffic on this list is becomming, at times, fairly Heavy. For those posting > modeling questions or discussions, please post the SCALe in the message > header. > That way, the rest of us could skip discussions of a model in a scale that > didn't interest us (read N scale J-1) In the future, rather than one person assuming that they can set the rules of the list, please contact the listmaster with your suggestions. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: Re: [PRR] A Simple Request Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:22:54 -0800 Dick Ross writes: > Traffic on this list is becomming, at times, fairly Heavy. For those posting > modeling questions or discussions, please post the SCALe in the message > header. > That way, the rest of us could skip discussions of a model in a scale that > didn't interest us (read N scale J-1) >From what I see, most discussions on here are not specific to any modelling scale. I'm not sure it would do you much good. Occasionally a particular thread may become uninteresting to those who don't do model railroading in that scale; however, those are pretty easy to filter out. If N scale is what bores you, you should be OK anyway; most discussion of N scale stuff takes place on the PRR N Scale list, not here. [btw, most of the J-1 discussion was NOT specifically for the proposed N scale version, but for both it and the HO version] Neither does the traffic on here seem heavy at all. It's no more than a dozen or two messages most days, and sometimes not even that. If you think that's heavy, you're not on many lists! Many average more like fifty postings per day, if not more. Given that I'm sure most people don't see this as a problem, I don't think you're going to get your request granted. If we were one of those hundreds-a-day lists, then maybe, but on this list? -Matt [obviously, the list owner is the one that gets the say, though!] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:46:51 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles Merlin, Bruce, Tom, Al, Chuck and all, Please don't get me started... In Chuck's notes... << From the latest PRRT&HS e-NEWS ""I think the ideal modeling article would emulate the reviews that Tom Olsen does of HO equipment. I'd preferably like some factual information on the prototype and some overall assessment of the model be it an engine, car, structure, signal or some right- of-way feature that is under evaluation. I don't want to publish a detailed step by step of how to modify a specific model to make it a more accurate representation of the PRR prototype, with photos of every step. How to accurately portray a Pennsy 4-track right-of-way, using prototype photos and model photos, would be superb. It's difficult to give exact guidelines, but I'd like a strong tie between actual and model." " - Keystone editor Chuck Blardone>> ALL, With all do respects, Chuck is the editor and I respect his authority and position... Al, some of my questions to you went unanswered, it would help to know what the criteria is... then I may committ under Chuck's provisions. Bruce Smith (a damn fine modeler, historian and clinician) wrote: Chuck Aw come on Chuck! So in fact, the PRRT&HS has NO INTEREST in modeling articles. Lets stop the BS and 'fess up. What you want are reviews, and that is all. What I thought we were asking for was articles on modeling. This is the reason that first class Pennsy modelers such as Greg Martin won't even affiliate themselves with the society any longer. How long will it take the powers that be to wake up and smell the brakes shoes burning? It won't be too many years before the folks who worked for "the company" are dead and gone, and THEN who will support the PRRT&HS. Aren't we already worried about sustaining membership. Geez, cut me a break! End of rant Happy Rails Bruce>> Bruce and all, Bruce thanks for the good words. It is my personal decision to distance myself from the society, but not the Pennsy. Merlin, you wizard you, you are absolutely right "we are all driving the same locomotive", some seem to miss that. Merlin has shared some lessons in compromise with me lately. Tom, Tally Ho friend, skies are darkest before the dawn. Chuck, I can not nor would I ever emulate someone else's work, nor would I expect you to have the the Keystone emulate what is published somewhere else. I respect that, but simply "reviewing" a product in the Keystone doesn't interest me as I have a column in Mainline Modeler and why mirrow what I am doing monthly. I really don't think your readers and membership would get much from something shallow would they why waste the page space? I think they would really like something more (IMHO). Let me ask you would it be fair for me to review the Athearn Genesis F Unit when I had a hand in the paint and lettering diagrams? Chuck, I would invite you to take a glimpse of my two-part article in Mainline Modeler on the PRR AFP-20/AP-20 (Dec/2000 and Jan/2001) and compare it to what is being published elsewhere, seems your favorite is RMJ well the same models can be found there in this month's issue, albeit just photos from Naperville. Then perhaps we, you and I, can find some common ! ground. I have found many helpfu l folks that belong to the society and I thank them, Dan Cupper, Bill Volkmer, Dave Sweetland, Rob Schoenberg as well as many, many others. Al, let me thank you publicly for making those track maps find their way in my direction. Again, my position hasn't changed, you have a historical society to preserve in print not a modeling magazine and I respect that. However; I, like others, realize that we can not perserve every piece of the Pennsy in full scale and doing it a smaller scale might just be a fair compromise, even the Smithsonian has a scale model of the EF-15 (EMD F-7). As I have said I am a modeler by choice and a historian by damn... I welcome all opinions both public and private. Fire away... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chloe" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:27:16 -0500 To all; respectfully; Can we all accept the fact that the T&HS does wonderful historical reearch, some of which is invaluable to the modelller and all of which is important? And not all of us model 4 track mainline---Pennsy's branches and subsidiaries(I model the P&E) are great Chloe ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 1:46 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles > Merlin, Bruce, Tom, Al, Chuck and all, > > Please don't get me started... > > In Chuck's notes... > << From the latest PRRT&HS e-NEWS > > ""I think the ideal modeling article would emulate the reviews that Tom Olsen does of HO equipment. I'd preferably like some factual information on the prototype and some overall assessment of the model be it an engine, car, structure, signal or some right- of-way feature that is under evaluation. I don't want to publish a detailed step by step of how to modify a specific model to make it a more accurate representation of the PRR prototype, with photos of every step. How to accurately portray a Pennsy 4-track right-of-way, using prototype photos and model photos, would be superb. It's difficult to give exact guidelines, but I'd like a strong tie between actual and model." " > - Keystone editor Chuck Blardone>> > > ALL, > With all do respects, Chuck is the editor and I respect his authority and position... > > Al, some of my questions to you went unanswered, it would help to know what the criteria is... then I may committ under Chuck's provisions. > > Bruce Smith (a damn fine modeler, historian and clinician) wrote: > > Chuck > > Aw come on Chuck! So in fact, the PRRT&HS has NO INTEREST in modeling articles. Lets stop the BS and 'fess up. What you want are reviews, and that is all. What I thought we were asking for was articles on modeling. This is the reason that first class Pennsy modelers such as Greg Martin won't even affiliate themselves with the society any longer. How long will > it take the powers that be to wake up and smell the brakes shoes burning? It won't be too many years before the folks who worked for "the company" are dead and gone, and THEN who will support the PRRT&HS. Aren't we > already worried about sustaining membership. Geez, cut me a break! > > End of rant > Happy Rails > Bruce>> > > Bruce and all, > > Bruce thanks for the good words. It is my personal decision to distance myself from the society, but not the Pennsy. Merlin, you wizard you, you are absolutely right "we are all driving the same locomotive", some seem to miss that. Merlin has shared some lessons in compromise with me lately. Tom, Tally Ho friend, skies are darkest before the dawn. > > Chuck, I can not nor would I ever emulate someone else's work, nor would I expect you to have the the Keystone emulate what is published somewhere else. I respect that, but simply "reviewing" a product in the Keystone doesn't interest me as I have a column in Mainline Modeler and why mirrow what I am doing monthly. I really don't think your readers and membership would get much from something shallow would they why waste the page space? I think they would really like something more (IMHO). Let me ask you would it be fair for me to review the Athearn Genesis F Unit when I had a hand in the paint and lettering diagrams? Chuck, I would invite you to take a glimpse of my two-part article in Mainline Modeler on the PRR AFP-20/AP-20 (Dec/2000 and Jan/2001) and compare it to what is being published elsewhere, seems your favorite is RMJ well the same models can be found there in this month's issue, albeit just photos from Naperville. Then perhaps we, you and I, can find some common ! > ground. I have found many helpfu > l folks that belong to the society and I thank them, Dan Cupper, Bill Volkmer, Dave Sweetland, Rob Schoenberg as well as many, many others. Al, let me thank you publicly for making those track maps find their way in my direction. > > Again, my position hasn't changed, you have a historical society to preserve in print not a modeling magazine and I respect that. However; I, like others, realize that we can not perserve every piece of the Pennsy in full scale and doing it a smaller scale might just be a fair compromise, even the Smithsonian has a scale model of the EF-15 (EMD F-7). As I have said I am a modeler by choice and a historian by damn... > > I welcome all opinions both public and private. Fire away... > > Greg Martin > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles(?) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:08:37 -0500 Respectfully, Looks like the fires are burning again. Personally the point expressed by Bruce Smith hits home, in that eventually we all pass on to that call house in the sky. Once that happens, it is up to others to carry on as best they can. Now I don't know about the rest on this list, but my only recollection of operational steam is the East Broad Top. Take a moment to reflect on how many modelers don't even have that. The relevancy of the "historical" content of the PRRT&HS (and the Keystone, which is the connection for the majority of members) is of primary concern to many. However, IMHO I suspect that most are modelers. How else to "remember" the Pennsy? "We" are attempting to model the portion of that system which interests us. That includes motive power, rolling stock, structers and general configuration. How someone else may have done a similar project is relevant to us. I guess the lines are being drawn between those of us who began "playing with trains at Christmas" and THEN chose to become involved with the Pennsy, and those who worked on the system (with apparently little appreciation of modeling). Looking at the names of those who regulilarily contribute to these pages: they read like a list of "who's who" in model railroading. Gentlemen, I will probably never reach your level of expertese, but I can try. It is precisely those articles which inspire me. NOT the china pattern used on the "Broadway Limited" in 1938. Nice to know as a sidelight, but not necessary. How many of you can speak in the language of their forebarers? (pardon to those of English speaking ancestry). Is this what awaits the Pennsy, because it is not relevant to one? I hope not, but the possibility exists. Thanks for listening, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: e-NEWS feedback Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:11:43 -0500 Well folks here you have it direct from the man. Al =================================== -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Blardone [mailto:blardone@redrose.net] Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 9:39 PM To: Al Buchan Subject: Re: e-NEWS feedback Al: Please post the following for me. Thanks, Chuck =================================== Bruce; In response to your recent posting: It's pretty hard to prove that I'm not "guilty" when I'm lynched without a trial. I am not two-faced. I meant what I said. If you can't take my words for face value, there's no point in my saying more. I still challenge you (or any other "top-notch modeler") to put up or shut up. I've not turned away any modeling article from my door. In fact, I'm writing what I consider to be a modeling article for the summer "Keystone, because no one has submitted any. Lotsa lazy guys out there that have plenty of time to crucify rather than aid. Methinks good modeling articles go elsewhere for publication because you modelers want a few pieces of silver for stringing a few words and photos together. Ah, that good feeling money gives! Another of my personal feelings (since we're getting down and dirty) is that I joined the PRRT&HS back in the mid-1970s because it provided me with the prototype information and photos that I needed to do accurate modeling. I didn't need some cookie-cutter article to tell me how to do things. Some guys (although far fewer than decades before) do want not to involve their brain in this modeling process. I'm still a modeler, and I still depend mainly on historical publications to give me "the right poop" for modeling my pike. I know enough not to purchase what some half-ass model producer foists on uneducated modelers, or laugh at what some uneducated editor of a modeling magazine accepts as truths to publish. We're committed to accuracy. You can't say the same of any modeling magazine; they'll publish drek if people will buy it. There you have it, buddy. Truman said that "I never gave anybody Hell; I told them the truth and they thought it was Hell." Harry was a helluva guy! Chuck Blardone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen A. D'Addio" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: e-NEWS feedback Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:38:43 -0500 I am not a member of the PRRH&TS, but I think Mr. Blardone is 100% correct. Maybe the "model reviews" in the leading publications should be done by members of the Historical Societies, not modelers or editors! That is the only way the manufacturers can evaluate their works. It will also tip modelers off to the inaccuracies and allow the modelers the choice of either buying the model with the intent to improve its accuracy or pass it up. Also, if the models are too inaccurate and the manufacturers suffer monetarily for their gaf, they will either improve on their accuracy or face market extinction. Well, that's my $.02. Steve D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "PRR-Talk" Cc: "Chuck Blardone" Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: [PRR] FW: e-NEWS feedback > Well folks here you have it direct from the man. > > Al > =================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Blardone [mailto:blardone@redrose.net] > Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 9:39 PM > To: Al Buchan > Subject: Re: e-NEWS feedback > > > Al: > Please post the following for me. > Thanks, > Chuck > =================================== > Bruce; > > In response to your recent posting: > > It's pretty hard to prove that I'm not "guilty" when I'm lynched without a > trial. I am not two-faced. I meant what I said. If you can't take my > words > for face value, there's no point in my saying more. > > I still challenge you (or any other "top-notch modeler") to put up or shut > up. > I've not turned away any modeling article from my door. In fact, I'm > writing > what I consider to be a modeling article for the summer "Keystone, because > no > one has submitted any. Lotsa lazy guys out there that have plenty of time > to > crucify rather than aid. > > Methinks good modeling articles go elsewhere for publication because you > modelers want a few pieces of silver for stringing a few words and photos > together. Ah, that good feeling money gives! > > Another of my personal feelings (since we're getting down and dirty) is that > I > joined the PRRT&HS back in the mid-1970s because it provided me with the > prototype information and photos that I needed to do accurate modeling. I > didn't need some cookie-cutter article to tell me how to do things. Some > guys > (although far fewer than decades before) do want not to involve their brain > in > this modeling process. I'm still a modeler, and I still depend mainly on > historical publications to give me "the right poop" for modeling my pike. I > know enough not to purchase what some half-ass model producer foists on > uneducated modelers, or laugh at what some uneducated editor of a modeling > magazine accepts as truths to publish. We're committed to accuracy. You > can't > say the same of any modeling magazine; they'll publish drek if people will > buy > it. > > There you have it, buddy. Truman said that "I never gave anybody Hell; I > told > them the truth and they thought it was Hell." Harry was a helluva guy! > > Chuck Blardone > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen A. D'Addio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles(?) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:30:51 -0500 Walt, Please see my comments to the Al Buchan e-mail. You have a good concern, but are battling the wrong "enemy." I'm afraid that the culprits are the modeling magazines and model makers,not he PRRH&TS (or any other H&TS). New Year's resolution!? Join the PRRH&TS so that you will have the ability to check the accuracy first and then determine if the purchase of the model in question is what you want to do. In other words, as in any purchase, do your homework first and your purchase second. I think too many of us want to be the first one on the block to have a specific model. (I'm one of those, too!) If you enjoy kitbashing models, you still have to do your homework first, in order to see what you are in for. Respectfully, Steve D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Prusick" To: Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 10:08 AM Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles(?) > Respectfully, > Looks like the fires are burning again. Personally the point expressed > by Bruce Smith hits home, in that eventually we all pass on to that call > house in the sky. Once that happens, it is up to others to carry on as best > they can. Now I don't know about the rest on this list, but my only > recollection of operational steam is the East Broad Top. Take a moment to > reflect on how many modelers don't even have that. The relevancy of the > "historical" content of the PRRT&HS (and the Keystone, which is the > connection for the majority of members) is of primary concern to many. > However, IMHO I suspect that most are modelers. How else to "remember" > the Pennsy? "We" are attempting to model the portion of that system which > interests us. That includes motive power, rolling stock, structers and > general configuration. How someone else may have done a similar project is > relevant to us. > I guess the lines are being drawn between those of us who began "playing > with trains at Christmas" and THEN chose to become involved with the Pennsy, > and those who worked on the system (with apparently little appreciation of > modeling). > Looking at the names of those who regulilarily contribute to these > pages: they read like a list of "who's who" in model railroading. Gentlemen, > I will probably never reach your level of expertese, but I can try. It is > precisely those articles which inspire me. NOT the china pattern used on the > "Broadway Limited" in 1938. Nice to know as a sidelight, but not necessary. > How many of you can speak in the language of their forebarers? (pardon > to those of English speaking ancestry). Is this what awaits the Pennsy, > because it is not relevant to one? I hope not, but the possibility exists. > Thanks for listening, > Walt Prusick > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:38:02 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: N-6 Bill, But I've not built one in S Scale and I like scatchbuilding in all scales. Just because someone else makes it doesn't mean you can't build one yourself. Remember, we're talking about the most common PRR cabin car from the 1920s to the 1960s. You included in you post only a partial list of N-6 design variants. Do you have an S-Scale N6b with a Panhandle cupola or an N6b rebuilt from an NBa giving it "wall-eyed windows" and an offset offset cupola? There's also about six or seven lettering schemes, versions with K brakes, vertical brake staffs and arch bar trucks; others with AB-brakes, platform-mounted brtake wheels and Penst's single spring cabin car truck. Remember, the N6 was the most common Pennsy cabin car from the late 1920s to early 1950s. Tom V. In a message dated Fri, 19 Jan 2001 9:30:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Bill Lane" writes: << Tom. There is no need to scratch build an N-6 in S Scale. We already have them in center copula, offset copula, and Lines West versions. I thought you might like to know. Bill >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeling articles(?) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:07:09 -0500 Ok folks, let's get to the nub of the problem. How many of you have submitted an article on modeling a Pennsy prototype to the Keystone in say the past 6 months? I have sided with those expressing their concern about the Keystone not publishing said articles (for my own reasons). But Mr. Blardone (via Mr. Buchan) raises an excellent point. I for one would like to see a show of hands of those who have submitted articles. BTW, I am one of those "uneducated modelers" I guess as I never did learn how to count rivets. (Sigh) Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] KeystoneModelingArticles(?) 2 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:49:08 -0500 Folks, I, not feel history is important? Come on, how many 3rd generation Hunkies do you know that can still understand and speak (well somewhat) Polish? One has to pass down the information and traditions that one feels are important to the understanding of the subject under discussion. Just as in teaching, one has to demonstrate the "connection with real life" (relevancy) of the subject, lest the student tunes the instructor out. Now about the "society". In what way have they demonstrated said relevancy? I would be the last one to take a shot at the Keystone for it's historical significance. But might I also say that construction articles (which I would understand from this list are not being either submitted [per one individual] or not being used [posted by another] may be a way of demonstrating the relevancy to up and coming modelers? Does anyone truly believe that the majority of the youngsters of today (set your own standard here) will care a whit of the Pennsy, without holding a "good" model in their hand (which they have assembled/kitbashed/whatever)? Think about it. There apears to be a problem with membership numbers now. What will it be like (provided it is still around) when my cold fingers are pryed from the throttel? So again, I call for a show of hands, how many have submitted articles in the past 6 months. Climbing from my soapbox, Walt Prusick PS. I was a member back when, probably before most of those on this list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: [CYBER] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:36:48 -0500 First thing I want to say is......Chuck " Don't change a thing !". The PRRT&HS is a historical group, and it says so in it's name. The name also says that it is a technical society, and I don't see a "HO" or a "N" scale in the name..... But as we all know....we have some good modelers in the society, some of them sell there works to be published in Modeling magazines, such as Railroad Modeling. And I for one, go there to find my Modeling information. To find the Technical information, I use the Keystone. For the general hobby articles I go to Model Railroader, and Craftsmen, etc. The point I am trying to make here is that if you want modeling information, then go to one of the modeling publications. Or if there are that many of you that dislike the PRRT&HS, and what it has to offer in the way of historical and technical information. Then you could always produce your own electronic magazine, with your own work....... But I'll bet that you only have one or two publications, before you find out that there are no articles...... We have been down this road so many times that we have worn the paint off the highway. Oh yes I am a modeler, and I also play around with the 12" to the foot stuff also. I model my way because I don't wish to go head to head with the rivet counters. I model the PRR the way I remember it and don't need some body (being kind here) telling me the Pennsy didn't run that equipment with that engine...... I don't give a darn..... It does on my layout. Bottom line is...... Give me a break. There are articles in the Keystone that I don't care for, but I don't remember anybody holding a gun to my head to read them....... There have been a huge number of articles that I have read, and read, to get all the information that I wanted, weather for modeling or for historical content. With all of these list, you know when someone has something in a magazine that you want to read, just go buy it ! Rather than do that you spend countless hours cutting up one of the best, publications around, the Keystone. I look for the Keystone to tell me the technical information about what ever I am researching, and a model magazine to tell me how a rivet counter built his special car, or whatever. And sometimes I do enjoy those also, but I don't like anyone telling me the only way to model anything. But then, I don't care if my car is 6" short, the steps are to thick, or it has the wrong number.... It is only a model. Now I do have some very good and very precise models, but I don't run them on the layout.... God forgive if I should break a break line or a coupler lift bar.... And thats how I fell about all of this ! Let the fire fly fellows...... Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:36:48 -0500 First thing I want to say is......Chuck " Don't change a thing !". The PRRT&HS is a historical group, and it says so in it's name. The name also says that it is a technical society, and I don't see a "HO" or a "N" scale in the name..... But as we all know....we have some good modelers in the society, some of them sell there works to be published in Modeling magazines, such as Railroad Modeling. And I for one, go there to find my Modeling information. To find the Technical information, I use the Keystone. For the general hobby articles I go to Model Railroader, and Craftsmen, etc. The point I am trying to make here is that if you want modeling information, then go to one of the modeling publications. Or if there are that many of you that dislike the PRRT&HS, and what it has to offer in the way of historical and technical information. Then you could always produce your own electronic magazine, with your own work....... But I'll bet that you only have one or two publications, before you find out that there are no articles...... We have been down this road so many times that we have worn the paint off the highway. Oh yes I am a modeler, and I also play around with the 12" to the foot stuff also. I model my way because I don't wish to go head to head with the rivet counters. I model the PRR the way I remember it and don't need some body (being kind here) telling me the Pennsy didn't run that equipment with that engine...... I don't give a darn..... It does on my layout. Bottom line is...... Give me a break. There are articles in the Keystone that I don't care for, but I don't remember anybody holding a gun to my head to read them....... There have been a huge number of articles that I have read, and read, to get all the information that I wanted, weather for modeling or for historical content. With all of these list, you know when someone has something in a magazine that you want to read, just go buy it ! Rather than do that you spend countless hours cutting up one of the best, publications around, the Keystone. I look for the Keystone to tell me the technical information about what ever I am researching, and a model magazine to tell me how a rivet counter built his special car, or whatever. And sometimes I do enjoy those also, but I don't like anyone telling me the only way to model anything. But then, I don't care if my car is 6" short, the steps are to thick, or it has the wrong number.... It is only a model. Now I do have some very good and very precise models, but I don't run them on the layout.... God forgive if I should break a break line or a coupler lift bar.... And thats how I fell about all of this ! Let the fire fly fellows...... Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:36:48 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS First thing I want to say is......Chuck " Don't change a thing !". The PRRT&HS is a historical group, and it says so in it's name. The name also says that it is a technical society, and I don't see a "HO" or a "N" scale in the name..... But as we all know....we have some good modelers in the society, some of them sell there works to be published in Modeling magazines, such as Railroad Modeling. And I for one, go there to find my Modeling information. To find the Technical information, I use the Keystone. For the general hobby articles I go to Model Railroader, and Craftsmen, etc. The point I am trying to make here is that if you want modeling information, then go to one of the modeling publications. Or if there are that many of you that dislike the PRRT&HS, and what it has to offer in the way of historical and technical information. Then you could always produce your own electronic magazine, with your own work....... But I'll bet that you only have one or two publications, before you find out that there are no articles...... We have been down this road so many times that we have worn the paint off the highway. Oh yes I am a modeler, and I also play around with the 12" to the foot stuff also. I model my way because I don't wish to go head to head with the rivet counters. I model the PRR the way I remember it and don't need some body (being kind here) telling me the Pennsy didn't run that equipment with that engine...... I don't give a darn..... It does on my layout. Bottom line is...... Give me a break. There are articles in the Keystone that I don't care for, but I don't remember anybody holding a gun to my head to read them....... There have been a huge number of articles that I have read, and read, to get all the information that I wanted, weather for modeling or for historical content. With all of these list, you know when someone has something in a magazine that you want to read, just go buy it ! Rather than do that you spend countless hours cutting up one of the best, publications around, the Keystone. I look for the Keystone to tell me the technical information about what ever I am researching, and a model magazine to tell me how a rivet counter built his special car, or whatever. And sometimes I do enjoy those also, but I don't like anyone telling me the only way to model anything. But then, I don't care if my car is 6" short, the steps are to thick, or it has the wrong number.... It is only a model. Now I do have some very good and very precise models, but I don't run them on the layout.... God forgive if I should break a break line or a coupler lift bar.... And thats how I fell about all of this ! Let the fire fly fellows...... Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 05:42:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: e-NEWS feedback Steve, I am sorry but I think you are not very realistic. For the most part the historical society is being controlled by historians, as it should be. Modeling should come some where down the road in the organization. I can't fault them for ignoring the modeling side in the Keystone as I think they need to cover all of the diesels that the Pennsy owned in detail and cross post the information with phase and model from each of the manufacturers. Like for instance the EH-15's that were produced from say The last week of September 1948 unit the last week of February 1949, you know now what did EMD call them? In most cases they are able to supply a modeler with some of the parts to the puzzle to complete a modeling projects, but they do get stumped from time to time. << I am not a member of the PRRH&TS, but I think Mr. Blardone is 100% correct.>> I don't even think that Chuck believes he is 100% correct, compromise needs to come about. <> I say hey let's work hard with the manufacturers before the project is started to insure we get it right before they are wrong and fall into he hands of the critics ... now that is a novel concept. You know what I mean like a rush from a manufacturer to a person someone considered an expert and now something is wrong with the Red Caboose X-29. Slow down check first and then double check. <> Steve and all, Is it really only up to the manufacturer to insure that what is produced is correct? We as modelers should be siting on their door steps checking their work so they will be around and so the if a mistake is made it is caught before production and not after the fact. Think of it this way folks, how comes we never have time to make sure they do it right, but we always seem to find time to criticize them for making the errors. Be proactive. I do agree with Bruce Smith, I am an author of many articles, I do get paid well for my writing in public magazines, I am the one that Chuck is standing back and poking at, and I have laid a compromise on Al and Chuck's table and this is my 2¢ worth, and I am still smiling. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 06:13:36 EST Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeling reviews Walt, I think Bruce mentioned earlier it doesn't seem they want modeling articles, they want some form of review/comaprison. If I read them correctly what they want is to pass some judgment on the models correctness, not what it takes to make a model Pennsy. For instance, you can all go out and buy a Life Like Pennsy, PA/B set and the Keystone might tell you if the model is correct for the Pennsy and they might tell you what need to be done to fix it and tell you a history of the model. But what about the poor SPF that wants to know what is the correct spacing on the "antenna mast" and oh by the way, how many insulators appear under the side and on which side? You get the picture I think, if you want a shallow report on the current PRR model and to get the blessing of the society to go buy, then fine. But if you want to know how to model a good representation of the PRR X-45 then forget it. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] I have raised my hand Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 09:24:24 -0500 List, I have been a PRR T & HS member for about 12 years now. I am not going to direct any of my views at anyone directly. But here are a few random thoughts. 1. I have been contributing PRR Builders photos from my (now 800 photo collection) to Chuck because that is what I have to give. I felt like a hypocrite because I was saying (to myself) I would like more rolling stock articles. I was TAKING without GIVING. I am sending the photos only because I know how much time it takes to compile such an article. I am a dyslexic typist. Every one of my emails has red lines all over it. I cannot bear the thought of having to do an in depth article like that. I RESPECT and APPRECIATE everyone who gives that amount of time to contribute such an article to the Keystone only to have it carved up for some miniscule error. So yes, I have contributed in the past 6 months. 2. I have had a modeling article sent back to be resubmitted by Chuck. I was upset by it but I hold no ill will against him. I think he is an outstanding person doing an AWESOME job for FREE! If anyone is that critical of Chuck's performance, step up to the plate, belly up to the bar, sit in the driver's seat etc. READ- can YOU do a better job? 3. Since I model in S Scale, 99% of the modeling messages on this list and HO kitbash articles are completely irrelevant to me. I delete, or don't read them and move forth. You can do the same. That should do it for me for now. If you now want to trash me my email address is billlane@snip.net. Do it privately. And PLEASE stop forwarding complete messages. It makes the digests HUGE. Thank You Bill Lane ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] PRRHTS Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:26:14 -0000 Does anyone know how I can pay a membership on a credit card, my local bank here in the UK will charge me almost the membership fee to get a draft! Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] A-West Blacken-It WARNING Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 21:53:33 -0500 Folks, I want to tell you about a bad experience I recently had using the A-West product "Blacken-It" in combination with Micro Engineering Company (MEC) code 70 track. In the Summer of 1996 I installed a six track yard at Wheatland on the E&P and had previously installed the Wheatland Secondary Track also with code 70 which ran parallel to the yard and a code 83 main track. I used Borden's latex contact cement to affix the track to the subgrade (painted homosote) and subsequently attempted to darken the rail using the A-West product "Blacken-It." It didn't do a very good job as it turned the rail green rather than black. I have subsequently found out that the Micro Engineering Company's chemical for coloring rail a dark brown works well with several brushed applications. However, I never went back to correct this "goofy" green color that had come about with the "Blacken-It." I was going to get to it later when it came time to ballast that area. Well just recently I discovered that the spike heads and ties around the base of the rail on the Code 70 track which had the "Blacken-It" applied to it has been completely etched away leaving nothing to hold the gauge, thereby causing any cars on the track to derail when moved. Apparently the chemical reaction between the NS rail and the plastic ties has completely etched away the ties, as though they were a real wood tie with no tie plate to keep the rail from cutting into the tie. Now I have been known to be a nut for realism, however, this kind of realism I didn't need. Besides ties in yard tracks should last longer than four years. The bottom line is that seven complete sections of MEC Code 70 track in the yard and on the secondary need replacement. In addition, all of the cars sitting on the yard tracks now have corroded Kadee coupler trip pins (I mean heavy rust) and a corroded spot on each Kadee or P2K metal wheel where it had been in contact with the rail. I have used Borden's latex contact cement to affix the MEC track (which I have used almost exclusively) on the rest of the E&P which is 2.5 scale miles of main track plus sidings and side track (plus the EL New Castle Branch) and have had no other problems at all. This was the only area which had the "Blacken-It" applied. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] A-West Blacken-It WARNING Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:40:54 +1100 I have heard of similar problems with Shinohara/Lambert/Walthers track. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:03:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS Gentlemen and ladies... I so want to chew this one up, but ... No... This point of view is exactly what drives me and others away from your organization. Don't change a thing Chuck... Bruce this is exactly what I was talking about... John I am really biting my tongue... Bill Knepper writes... << First thing I want to say is......Chuck "Don't change a thing !". The PRRT&HS is a historical group, and it says so in it's name. The name also ... MAJOR SNIP (for the better me thinks...) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:29:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] A-West Blacken-It WARNING I have had corrosion problems with handlaid pre-weathered rail; electrolytic action at the spikes eats away both rail and spike and leaves a greenish residue which is quite apparent. The problem got so severe that I had to relay quite a few feet of track. The handlaid turnouts are another problem and were left in place but continue to decay, and will have to be replaced eventually. The rail was from a major supplier; I cannot be sure exactly but it was probably from the industry leader. I don't want to name names because of risk of unfairly disparaging what is otherwise an excellent product. Contributing factors may include humidity (the railroad is in my basement) and possibly the use of salt-containing fabric dye to color the ties. I no longer use pre-weathered rail and instead paint new rail with model railroad paints, which presumably do not contain harsh chemicals. I also now stain ties with oil-based wood dyes, rather than fabric dyes such as Rit. The corroded rail was taken up carefully, run through a wire brushing rig to remove all the old chemical blackening, painted, and reinstalled -- an unusual instance of modeling emulating the prototype in using relay rail! BTW all my rail is glued with contact cement (Pliobond, if I can find it) as well as spiked, so the rail has pretty much stayed in position despite the corrosion problem. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:32:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS In a message dated 1/22/01 1:12:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << Gentlemen and ladies... I so want to chew this one up, but ... No... This point of view is exactly what drives me and others away from your organization. Don't change a thing Chuck... Bruce this is exactly what I was talking about... John I am really biting my tongue... Bill Knepper writes... << First thing I want to say is......Chuck "Don't change a thing !". The PRRT&HS is a historical group, and it says so in it's name. The name also ... MAJOR SNIP (for the better me thinks...) Greg Martin >> What Bill neglects to say is that there is also a "T" for technical in PRRT&HS. Modelers want the technical, especially on things that are no longer around. How many stations have been demolished and of those still standing ...how many more can we save? How many locomotives and cars of all types have gone to the scrap heap? Do you think all modelers are just playing with there toys? There are some things that young modelers won't ever get to see except in miniatures done by those that have taken the time to recreate them. There are models out there that if photographed and put beside a photo of the original building, locomotive, car you would be hard pressed to figure out which was which. These models are helping to preserve the history of the Pennsy. Someday they may be the only history people will be able to see. Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:51:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS Bill, Greg & lists - CONGRATULATIONS! While having different points of view you have also found a middle ground. You both agree that the Keystone is the best magazine to come down the pike. I have emailed Greg Martin many times and he has always been very helpful. I also had the privilege of receiving some technical information from Bill. You're both pretty nice guys in my book. The one I really feel sorry for is Chuck. Times change and a magazine sometimes has to change a little too. It has the obligation to serve it's readers and I think Chuck is trying very hard to do this. I remember traveling down the NJP at the blistering speed of sixty miles per hour and being passed by a GG1 pulling a long passenger train. I was so impressed at the size and brute power that I was hooked on electrics for life. Now if you can remember when the Pennsy tracks ran close to the NJP and you could do sixty miles per hour without getting run over by a truck, you'll realize I'm not a young man. We all realize the only thing certain in life is change. Let's give Chuck a chance (and anyone else involved in making the decisions). But it's a big locomotive. Let's all help if we can or stand clear if we can't. Everyone deserves a chance. Merlin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:59:36 -0500 Subject: [CYBER] Re: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS From: Jerry Britton On 1/22/01 1:32 PM, DWa9975062@aol.com (DWa9975062@aol.com) wrote: > What Bill neglects to say is that there is also a "T" for technical in > PRRT&HS. Modelers want the technical, especially on things that are no longer > around. How many stations have been demolished and of those still standing > ...how many more can we save? How many locomotives and cars of all types have > gone to the scrap heap? Do you think all modelers are just playing with there > toys? There are some things that young modelers won't ever get to see except > in miniatures done by those that have taken the time to recreate them. There > are models out there that if photographed and put beside a photo of the > original building, locomotive, car you would be hard pressed to figure out > which was which. These models are helping to preserve the history of the > Pennsy. Someday they may be the only history people will be able to see. Geez, and I thought I was going to keep quiet on this recurring conversation! In lengthy past conversations with Walt Keely, Chuck Blardone, and others, I can see -- and now agree -- with why The Keystone should NOT get into modeling, per se. History does not change. Everything that entered into the PRR's history is still exactly how it was. No changes. Perhaps changes to mistaken reports of it, but the history itself is frozen. In modeling, everything changes. Two years ago we did not have Erie-builts in HO. Someone could have written about kitbashing or scratchbuilding them. But then an upstart from Canada called Miracle Castings gave us resin Erie-built shells -- yeah!!! Okay, so write about that now. Ooops, then Life Like comes out with Proto 1000 Erie-builts. Okay, take three on the article. So now you get the idea...modeling changes...often very fast. Chuck has to triage the content of a modeling article for longevity. The Keystone is expensive to produce and we cannot afford to waste pages on material that has a shelf life of only a few years. Back to Dayna's comment, to which I also agree, about history living through models. I am only 37. The PRR was gone by the time I have memories of railroads in the Harrisburg area. I depend on the "T" in PRRT&HS in order to produce accurate models. While many of the Society's members may shun modeling (many do), must I remind them that as they age and their numbers drop off (they will), the Society will itself disappear unless it adapts to a younger membership that places more emphasis on modeling. Last week Al Buchan reported that membership renewals are only at about 75% (if I recall). Folks, that ain't gonna cut it, and Dave Scott will let us know that in May. If that number doesn't climb real fast, I speculate that the Keystone will be cut by 16 pages. (Again, speculation. No rumor, hints, etc.) Ponder for a moment the current status of the East India Company... Once the participants died off, was there enough on-going interest to support a quarterly magazine of the caliber of the Keystone? Okay, that's extreme, but it makes the point. The number of PRR historians will drop off as well. I don't have the "formula" to propose, but the writing is on the wall: the PRRT&HS will have to change, in some way, in order to maintain the income to continue to provide the services we are accustomed to. I have verbally recommended in the past that the Society accept credit cards and sell past issues of the Keystone, prints, and all of their plans/prints from the archives via a web database. People would order quickly and more often because it would be convenient and spontaneous. The current six week lag of sending in a check and waiting for one party to receive and approve it for another party to ship it is rediculous! I am hereby ON RECORD as saying I will offer the PRRT&HS an eStore system on my server absolutely free of charge! All they need is the ability to accept credit cards and someone to keep the database of items current. It can be done from anywhere with a web browser. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:59:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS From: Jerry Britton On 1/22/01 1:32 PM, DWa9975062@aol.com (DWa9975062@aol.com) wrote: > What Bill neglects to say is that there is also a "T" for technical in > PRRT&HS. Modelers want the technical, especially on things that are no longer > around. How many stations have been demolished and of those still standing > ...how many more can we save? How many locomotives and cars of all types have > gone to the scrap heap? Do you think all modelers are just playing with there > toys? There are some things that young modelers won't ever get to see except > in miniatures done by those that have taken the time to recreate them. There > are models out there that if photographed and put beside a photo of the > original building, locomotive, car you would be hard pressed to figure out > which was which. These models are helping to preserve the history of the > Pennsy. Someday they may be the only history people will be able to see. Geez, and I thought I was going to keep quiet on this recurring conversation! In lengthy past conversations with Walt Keely, Chuck Blardone, and others, I can see -- and now agree -- with why The Keystone should NOT get into modeling, per se. History does not change. Everything that entered into the PRR's history is still exactly how it was. No changes. Perhaps changes to mistaken reports of it, but the history itself is frozen. In modeling, everything changes. Two years ago we did not have Erie-builts in HO. Someone could have written about kitbashing or scratchbuilding them. But then an upstart from Canada called Miracle Castings gave us resin Erie-built shells -- yeah!!! Okay, so write about that now. Ooops, then Life Like comes out with Proto 1000 Erie-builts. Okay, take three on the article. So now you get the idea...modeling changes...often very fast. Chuck has to triage the content of a modeling article for longevity. The Keystone is expensive to produce and we cannot afford to waste pages on material that has a shelf life of only a few years. Back to Dayna's comment, to which I also agree, about history living through models. I am only 37. The PRR was gone by the time I have memories of railroads in the Harrisburg area. I depend on the "T" in PRRT&HS in order to produce accurate models. While many of the Society's members may shun modeling (many do), must I remind them that as they age and their numbers drop off (they will), the Society will itself disappear unless it adapts to a younger membership that places more emphasis on modeling. Last week Al Buchan reported that membership renewals are only at about 75% (if I recall). Folks, that ain't gonna cut it, and Dave Scott will let us know that in May. If that number doesn't climb real fast, I speculate that the Keystone will be cut by 16 pages. (Again, speculation. No rumor, hints, etc.) Ponder for a moment the current status of the East India Company... Once the participants died off, was there enough on-going interest to support a quarterly magazine of the caliber of the Keystone? Okay, that's extreme, but it makes the point. The number of PRR historians will drop off as well. I don't have the "formula" to propose, but the writing is on the wall: the PRRT&HS will have to change, in some way, in order to maintain the income to continue to provide the services we are accustomed to. I have verbally recommended in the past that the Society accept credit cards and sell past issues of the Keystone, prints, and all of their plans/prints from the archives via a web database. People would order quickly and more often because it would be convenient and spontaneous. The current six week lag of sending in a check and waiting for one party to receive and approve it for another party to ship it is rediculous! I am hereby ON RECORD as saying I will offer the PRRT&HS an eStore system on my server absolutely free of charge! All they need is the ability to accept credit cards and someone to keep the database of items current. It can be done from anywhere with a web browser. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:02:12 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS Hmmmmm, what to do. News of a Cincy PRRT&HS convention in 2003 (or is it '04?) resolved one of my main complaints about the society, its geographic isolation. Remember than when I first began aggitating for a Lines West convention for years ago the common wisdom told menot to even try, as change was hopeless. If we can have a Lines West convention, resolving this modeling dispute shouldn't be too hard. I'm not suggesting that the Keystone replace MR or MM or O Scale but should make a concerted effort to cater to the technical needs of the modeler. I happen to like research but I understand that this is not everyone's cup of tea. That I modeled the PRR for 10 years before discovering the N6 was the most common cabin car says that more information is needed. Maintaining accuracy in models, reviews, is one area in which the Keystone could help. An annual feature migth be a list of currently available models that meet society standards for accuracy. Another could be a book available commercially called something like "The offical PRRT&HS guide to Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad" that would be a mixture of a Kalmbach beginner's how-to book, 57 PRR MOW plans, the PRR compendium and a FAQ list. I'd be really interested in editing a collection of car and structure prototype or construction stories from all major modeling magazines from all dates. Getting reprint rights may not be possible even if this is done under the PRRT&HS Aegis but it would be impossible without it. And every time these books are advertised or are metnioned in a construction story or are seen on a table at a swap meet it's an advetisement for the society and a strong arguement to join te society. No this is just MHO. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:53:10 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] New trucks from ECW Hi Y'all, I just noticed this on Eastern Car Works site: 9010 P.R.R. 2C-P1 for P-54 $5.00 9011 P.R.R. 2C-P3 for BM-54, PB-54 $5.00 Hmmmmm, wonder why they are making these trucks !!!!! Methinks a plastic MP-54 might be around the corner! Happy Speculations Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:11:29 -0600 Jerry and all, I do like the idea of this web based sale program. As for the credit card thing there is a solution. It is Pay Pal and I have used it for quite a few transactions on eBay. All you need to have to this to work is an email address. It is free for you and I. I know a business can use it also and save all the setup fees and card equipment. It is also fairly cheap per usage without any monthly fees. This is just a thought, and the usual disclaimers--I am not a stock holder, employee or any such thing. Jeremy Helms Bellevue, Nebraska > I am hereby ON RECORD as saying I will offer the PRRT&HS an eStore system on > my server absolutely free of charge! All they need is the ability to accept > credit cards and someone to keep the database of items current. It can be > done from anywhere with a web browser. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:13:34 -0500 Subject: TAN: Re: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS From: Jerry Britton On 1/22/01 7:11 PM, Jeremy & Soni Helms at (jeremy-sonihelms@home.com) wrote: > I do like the idea of this web based sale program. As for the credit card > thing there is a solution. It is Pay Pal and I have used it for quite a few > transactions on eBay. All you need to have to this to work is an email > address. It is free for you and I. I know a business can use it also and > save all the setup fees and card equipment. It is also fairly cheap per > usage without any monthly fees. This is just a thought, and the usual > disclaimers--I am not a stock holder, employee or any such thing. > My eCommerce system does support PayPal, as of the newest release. I don't use it, yet anyway. On the merchant side of things, the merchant must go to PayPal to see if the customer has paid. On other credit card gateways the processing gateway does what is called a "silent post" and tells the merchant's application that the card was approved. Verisign offers the latter type of service. The Society needs what is easier for the "shopkeeper", and that would be a system that notifies them that payment is good. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:08:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Keystone and the PRRT&HS...again! Friends, How interesting that a short note from Chuck Blardone can send this list into a tail spin and set Pennsy fans upon one another! I would have thought we all learned something after the last go around. Our strength is in our unity and our common interest in the Pennsylvania Railroad. We need for the list members to mature beyond these club politics. Separate the errors of the past from the future we all share here. I know this can be hard for many of us. I understand how difficult it is to seek knowledge so badly only to find it unavailable to me. We can change that here. By sharing with one another what we know, what we've learned. We can inspire one another. But, we must agree to begin with respect. Respect for one another. The Internet is a great gift share it. Be a good neighbor and share what you have, what you know, what you remember. Sorry, I got carried away. Jerry you have some very good ideas for the Society. I hope they listen. You know, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Hopefully the Society will find a way to work out it's problems in a less public forum. Ed Martin "twice former member PRRT&HS" but still a Pennsy fan! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:27:21 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] New trucks from ECW I said: >I just noticed this on Eastern Car Works site: > >9010 P.R.R. 2C-P1 for P-54 $5.00 >9011 P.R.R. 2C-P3 for BM-54, PB-54 $5.00 > >Hmmmmm, wonder why they are making these trucks !!!!! Methinks a >plastic MP-54 >might be around the corner! Okay, so I get the Duh! award today...These are the trucks that will go under Trainstuff's new MP54s...I KNEW that! BTW, speaking of Trainstuff - I got a chance to see the 90f82 tender in Cocoa Beach at the PM meet - I think that one of the biggest rubs on resin has been thick castings...well this tender is so thin that in raw resin you can almost see through it. The vertical coal board in back and the side coal boards look just like steel plate, and the rivets are TINY! John and Dayna said that they were almost done with making the molds, and might be ready to start casting very soon. I'll let y'all know when they come out! We are finally going to have a realistic short tender to go behind the Bowser I1!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:25:33 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR Laser Horizons Kit Rich, I was hoping someone else would step in and give advise, but it doesn't seem to be happening. So I'll give you my 2 cents. I have not yet tried the Laser Horizons cars but I have built several Union Station Product cars before they went under. I built all of the cars which used to appear on the USP website other than those built bye Mark Meeks himself. I built an entire Texas Special for him including the shadow lined through PRR 10-5 (and was never paid!). I have always painted the sides first. Otherwise you must mask off all of the windows - real pain since they have rounded corners. I mask paint all of the stripes and color rather than use decals. To do the stripes I use 1/64 inch charting tape. Do the minority color (usually the stripe) first. For example, when painting a PRR car I will paint the gold first. Then apply the charting tape. Then spray the Tuscan Red. Oh, yes. Use an airbrush! On postwar PRR cars, the window frames were stainless steel. Its very distinctive. I do these by spraying stainless steel color from the back after all other painting on the front of the sides has been done. This way the car side is its own mask. I'm not sure how well this technique will work with the widow "bead" supposedly on the LH cars. As I said I have not yet done one of these. I letter and overcoat the car side before applying it to the body. I glue the painted side to the clear plastic side/window with a slow setting AC glue. Usually one of the gap-filling varieties will set slowly enough. The fast drying kind doesn't let you align the two parts. AC glues are guaranteed to set instantly under tow circumstances: one, if you get your finger on them, and two, if you put the part in the wrong place! ;-) I have not often used a core kit. I usually make my car floors from 1/32 brass with plastruct 1/8 channel for the center sill. This gives the cars a nice weight and a low center of gravity. The roof is usually scrounged from a junker Rivarossi car. I buy used ones up cheap at train shows. The ends I will scratch build from sheet styrene, wire handrails, and an American Ltd's diaphragm. The Rivarossi roof is too long. I think the original designer of the cars mistook the length over pulling surfaces (87 ft 6 in) for the body length. Some car sides are made to fit these long bodies and the Rivarossi roof will work. For accurate 85 foot car sides you need to shorten the roof. Since the roof has a bevel to overlap the ends, I usually remove a slice from the middle of the roof. This also allows me to remove the "band-aid" which Rivarossi mistakenly put on the roof. Good luck on you endeavor, and let me (and all of us ) know about you success. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== rgortowski@aol.com wrote: > > List, > > I am new to this list. I am going to be building a PRR Laser Horizon > Pullman. > I am wondering if anyone who has built one (or a similar "sides" kit) > can > offer some suggestions. Particularly what adhesive do you use to > attach it > to the core kit, do you paint, decal, and clearcoat prior to mounting, > etc. > > Thanks for any help, > > Rich Gortowski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:03:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Hump height Hello. Had a one time resident of Johnstown give me a guess that the Hump height at "C" was about 10" above the ROW is this a standard height or did the height vary from hump yard to hump yard? How far would 10' roll a car? Thax Mark L. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:00:41 EST Subject: [PRR] HeliCalc has new features Hi, At the request of some N scale modelers for fractional inch and fractional turn capability, these features have been added to Version 2.0 of the Helix Calculator. It is still free and under 400k. For the latest version you can: Click here: OurTrainRoom_Home or paste this into your browser http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/beautiful/819/ Enjoy! Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [CYBER] FW: e-NEWS feedback Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:19:37 -0500 Fellow PRR fans, historians, modelers, et al. everywhere, Regarding the feedback from the piece in the January 2001 PRRT&HS e-NEWS about modeling articles in "The Keystone," Chuck was somewhat reluctant to answer my request to define the scope of what constitutes a good modeling article for the e-NEWS as he was fearful of its interpretation and potential hale storm. I on the other hand I thought, and still do think, that prospective authors needed some guidelines on what to do before they set out to do it. Chuck has already provided the technical aspects of that in his two author's manuals. However, in my opinion there was, and continues to be, insufficient guidance regarding article scope and content. Chuck didn't want to comment on this so as not to stifle anyone's creative abilities, which is understandable. I on the other hand didn't want someone to spend a lot of time developing something only to find it was not completely appropriate. Obviously Chuck was correct, as it has again produced a hale storm. However, I for one, am pleased it is out in the open and being discussed as this is the only way we will make meaningful progress. The modeling subject is problematic (maybe even a sore subject) for many people but then again so is Roe v. Wade and we are all entitled to our opinions as well as rants and raves, although the latter tend to be less constructive. When I ran for the PRRT&HS BoD the info statement accompanying the ballot, said that I would try to encompass more modeling into the society. That is still my position. I still believe that more articles in "The Keystone" could be geared to satisfying the modeler whilst concurrently satisfying the historian/buff. Articles about the historic aspects of the PRR are nice (such as what happened on the Humpty Dumpty Branch in 1860, etc. and Lord knows I'm penning a few of these myself) but they need to be balanced by the technical things that appeal to both the modeler and the historian/fan. For example, I believe we should publish more technical information on right-of-way design standards, equipment designs (like the recent class XL article), building and equipment painting schemes, sign colors and usage, information on freight and passenger train operations, traffic flows, (these latter items are for the operations oriented modelers - let's not forget them) etc., etc. This is no secret - Chuck B. and I have discussed this between ourselves before. These are all articles geared to the modeler. But somebody has to submit them. So if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Let me clarify someone's comment regarding the BoD not being interested in modeling. Dick Adams - formerly modeled PRR in HO, currently has LGB OR&W(PRR) narrow gauge. Chuck Blardone - models Colorado Narrow Gauge in Sn3, layout in progress. Bob Brubaker - models PRR in HO, the Newtown Square Branch, Philadelphia Division, layout underway. Al Buchan - models PRR in HO, the E&P Branch, Lake Division, layout in progress - see RMJ Feb 2001. Ivan Frantz - models PRR in HO, layout patterned after the NC Branch, Maryland Division. Active in York Club. Many entries in Annual Meeting Contest with awards. Fred Shaefer - models PRR in HO, active with the Altoona Club, models complete trains in different time periods, plans to build an area of PRR mainline. Also has some O scale, Dave Scott - models PRR in O and HO, mostly HO steam, unbelievable collection with layout to come, after the basement gets dewatered. Now I'm sure the complaint will be that no one on the BoD models in N scale. There is a plethora of model railroad magazines that tell us modelers how to create models - some mags do it better than others, depending on what stage you're at in the life cycle of modeling. But how many magazines are there that tell us, on a continuous basis, about the historical and technical aspects of the PRR? Yes, you're right if you said ONE - "The Keystone." So why should the one magazine that attempts to enlighten the entire PRR audience (modelers and historians/fans) about "their" railroad, attempt to now tell them IN DETAIL how to take today's model of the class XYZ piece of equipment and make it more accurate, when there are already 6+ mags out there doing it? If years ago "The Keystone" devoted several pages on how to make the Trains Miniature version of its HO scale plate end X29 into a more accurate model - that space, in my opinion, although maybe nice then, would have, in the long run, been wasted as there are today more accurate versions. Jerry Britton summed this situation up extremely well when he said - "Chuck has to triage the content of a modeling article for longevity. The Keystone is expensive to produce and we cannot afford to waste pages on material that has a shelf life of only a few years." Let me try to offer some guidelines that, in my opinion, might provide some common ground regarding modeling content. I personally think Greg Martin's current two part MLM series on the PA perhaps comes close to being what a "Keystone" modeling article might be. There were diagrams and text with very good info. However, I'm hung up on 17 photos of an undec shell and chassis showing the implementation of his "Pennsyized" fixes no matter how good they are (and that was just in Part 2). I personally don't want to open "The Keystone" and see someone telling me how to apply some specific after market detail part to some other manufacturers model. If I know where it goes I can figure out how to do it. If you can't take prototype photos, diagrams, plans and other technical information and turn them into a model no amount of articles in "The Keystone" is going to get you to that level. You need to take Modeling Railroads 101 which is best done by reading modeling magazines and the several good "how to" books on the market. Greg and I have talked about the modeling article subject between ourselves, off line before and will probably continue to do so, trying to reach agreement - I hope. He told me that Bob Hundman expunged a lot of the prototype data that was in the PA articles - that was too bad. I will also say again what I said in the e-NEWS - how about an article on C-Liners and the Erie builts, including plans and diagrams that show where the trainphone antenna equipment goes, how the back door and lift rings are really built, etc., etc? Wither's recent book on the FM units is a help, but there are no plans or diagrams. Take a look at the back end of the C-Liner on page 339 and then look at your P1K model. Big difference? Yes. I can come up with a reasonable diagram/plan of my own (and have done so) on how to correct this but it sure would be nice to have the actual as built drawing of this published, perhaps in "The Keystone," but no instructions on how to fabricate it in styrene or any other material. If somebody wanted to discuss the differences between the class X29 freight and passenger car versions so modifications could be made to a Red Caboose kit perhaps there is a modeling article for publishing, including diagrams as to where the additional hardware goes, but not how to attach Part A to Part B. This would show both the modelers and the historians/fans what the differences between the two versions were and both sides of the aisle should be reasonably satisfied. Someone asked if the class X26 article in the December MLM is a good example of an article for "The Keystone." In my opinion the answer is no. Its like the example given above regarding the TM HO X29. An article that might serve as an example for modeling articles in "The Keystone" is one by Stafford Swain on CN Box cars in the January edition of RMJ. Lots of good pictures nice discussion of differences and no prose about gluing Part A to Part B. The only draw back with that article is - no plans. BTW - although Chuck has a "pipeline" of articles, any of those submitted today that deal with motive power and cars do not get hung up in the "pipeline" - they go out quickly, i.e., there is a dearth of these type articles. A little off the subject of "The Keystone" - regarding modelers working with manufactures - in one post I believe it was Greg who stated - "Is it really only up to the manufacturer to insure that what is produced is correct? We as modelers should be sitting on their door steps checking their work so they will be around and so the if a mistake is made it is caught before production and not after the fact. Think of it this way folks, how comes we never have time to make sure they do it right, but we always seem to find time to criticize them for making the errors. Be proactive." I agree with this, however, I know modelers who have worked with manufactures - and they (the manufacturer) still gets things screwed up. To wit, "Mr. PRR Hopper Car" and good friend John Teichmoeller worked closely with Eastern Car Works on their production of the N&W/PRR H2. And in my opinion, and John knows this as we have discussed it privately, the final product is not as good as it could have been. I posted my comments on this model to both PRR-Talk and PRR-Modeling several months ago. This is not John's fault. Bill Strassner and others have had the same problems with the G-scale - G-gauge providers (whatever that big stuff is - ????? - Babel I haven't figured this one out yet - probably never will), to wit even simple stuff like wrong colors, wrong numbers, etc., etc. Those disagreeing with my thoughts should contact me with an example of what they consider to be a "model" model article and the reason(s) it is such. I'll be glad to listen and discuss. Thanx. Al ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: e-NEWS feedback Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:19:37 -0500 Fellow PRR fans, historians, modelers, et al. everywhere, Regarding the feedback from the piece in the January 2001 PRRT&HS e-NEWS about modeling articles in "The Keystone," Chuck was somewhat reluctant to answer my request to define the scope of what constitutes a good modeling article for the e-NEWS as he was fearful of its interpretation and potential hale storm. I on the other hand I thought, and still do think, that prospective authors needed some guidelines on what to do before they set out to do it. Chuck has already provided the technical aspects of that in his two author's manuals. However, in my opinion there was, and continues to be, insufficient guidance regarding article scope and content. Chuck didn't want to comment on this so as not to stifle anyone's creative abilities, which is understandable. I on the other hand didn't want someone to spend a lot of time developing something only to find it was not completely appropriate. Obviously Chuck was correct, as it has again produced a hale storm. However, I for one, am pleased it is out in the open and being discussed as this is the only way we will make meaningful progress. The modeling subject is problematic (maybe even a sore subject) for many people but then again so is Roe v. Wade and we are all entitled to our opinions as well as rants and raves, although the latter tend to be less constructive. When I ran for the PRRT&HS BoD the info statement accompanying the ballot, said that I would try to encompass more modeling into the society. That is still my position. I still believe that more articles in "The Keystone" could be geared to satisfying the modeler whilst concurrently satisfying the historian/buff. Articles about the historic aspects of the PRR are nice (such as what happened on the Humpty Dumpty Branch in 1860, etc. and Lord knows I'm penning a few of these myself) but they need to be balanced by the technical things that appeal to both the modeler and the historian/fan. For example, I believe we should publish more technical information on right-of-way design standards, equipment designs (like the recent class XL article), building and equipment painting schemes, sign colors and usage, information on freight and passenger train operations, traffic flows, (these latter items are for the operations oriented modelers - let's not forget them) etc., etc. This is no secret - Chuck B. and I have discussed this between ourselves before. These are all articles geared to the modeler. But somebody has to submit them. So if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Let me clarify someone's comment regarding the BoD not being interested in modeling. Dick Adams - formerly modeled PRR in HO, currently has LGB OR&W(PRR) narrow gauge. Chuck Blardone - models Colorado Narrow Gauge in Sn3, layout in progress. Bob Brubaker - models PRR in HO, the Newtown Square Branch, Philadelphia Division, layout underway. Al Buchan - models PRR in HO, the E&P Branch, Lake Division, layout in progress - see RMJ Feb 2001. Ivan Frantz - models PRR in HO, layout patterned after the NC Branch, Maryland Division. Active in York Club. Many entries in Annual Meeting Contest with awards. Fred Shaefer - models PRR in HO, active with the Altoona Club, models complete trains in different time periods, plans to build an area of PRR mainline. Also has some O scale, Dave Scott - models PRR in O and HO, mostly HO steam, unbelievable collection with layout to come, after the basement gets dewatered. Now I'm sure the complaint will be that no one on the BoD models in N scale. There is a plethora of model railroad magazines that tell us modelers how to create models - some mags do it better than others, depending on what stage you're at in the life cycle of modeling. But how many magazines are there that tell us, on a continuous basis, about the historical and technical aspects of the PRR? Yes, you're right if you said ONE - "The Keystone." So why should the one magazine that attempts to enlighten the entire PRR audience (modelers and historians/fans) about "their" railroad, attempt to now tell them IN DETAIL how to take today's model of the class XYZ piece of equipment and make it more accurate, when there are already 6+ mags out there doing it? If years ago "The Keystone" devoted several pages on how to make the Trains Miniature version of its HO scale plate end X29 into a more accurate model - that space, in my opinion, although maybe nice then, would have, in the long run, been wasted as there are today more accurate versions. Jerry Britton summed this situation up extremely well when he said - "Chuck has to triage the content of a modeling article for longevity. The Keystone is expensive to produce and we cannot afford to waste pages on material that has a shelf life of only a few years." Let me try to offer some guidelines that, in my opinion, might provide some common ground regarding modeling content. I personally think Greg Martin's current two part MLM series on the PA perhaps comes close to being what a "Keystone" modeling article might be. There were diagrams and text with very good info. However, I'm hung up on 17 photos of an undec shell and chassis showing the implementation of his "Pennsyized" fixes no matter how good they are (and that was just in Part 2). I personally don't want to open "The Keystone" and see someone telling me how to apply some specific after market detail part to some other manufacturers model. If I know where it goes I can figure out how to do it. If you can't take prototype photos, diagrams, plans and other technical information and turn them into a model no amount of articles in "The Keystone" is going to get you to that level. You need to take Modeling Railroads 101 which is best done by reading modeling magazines and the several good "how to" books on the market. Greg and I have talked about the modeling article subject between ourselves, off line before and will probably continue to do so, trying to reach agreement - I hope. He told me that Bob Hundman expunged a lot of the prototype data that was in the PA articles - that was too bad. I will also say again what I said in the e-NEWS - how about an article on C-Liners and the Erie builts, including plans and diagrams that show where the trainphone antenna equipment goes, how the back door and lift rings are really built, etc., etc? Wither's recent book on the FM units is a help, but there are no plans or diagrams. Take a look at the back end of the C-Liner on page 339 and then look at your P1K model. Big difference? Yes. I can come up with a reasonable diagram/plan of my own (and have done so) on how to correct this but it sure would be nice to have the actual as built drawing of this published, perhaps in "The Keystone," but no instructions on how to fabricate it in styrene or any other material. If somebody wanted to discuss the differences between the class X29 freight and passenger car versions so modifications could be made to a Red Caboose kit perhaps there is a modeling article for publishing, including diagrams as to where the additional hardware goes, but not how to attach Part A to Part B. This would show both the modelers and the historians/fans what the differences between the two versions were and both sides of the aisle should be reasonably satisfied. Someone asked if the class X26 article in the December MLM is a good example of an article for "The Keystone." In my opinion the answer is no. Its like the example given above regarding the TM HO X29. An article that might serve as an example for modeling articles in "The Keystone" is one by Stafford Swain on CN Box cars in the January edition of RMJ. Lots of good pictures nice discussion of differences and no prose about gluing Part A to Part B. The only draw back with that article is - no plans. BTW - although Chuck has a "pipeline" of articles, any of those submitted today that deal with motive power and cars do not get hung up in the "pipeline" - they go out quickly, i.e., there is a dearth of these type articles. A little off the subject of "The Keystone" - regarding modelers working with manufactures - in one post I believe it was Greg who stated - "Is it really only up to the manufacturer to insure that what is produced is correct? We as modelers should be sitting on their door steps checking their work so they will be around and so the if a mistake is made it is caught before production and not after the fact. Think of it this way folks, how comes we never have time to make sure they do it right, but we always seem to find time to criticize them for making the errors. Be proactive." I agree with this, however, I know modelers who have worked with manufactures - and they (the manufacturer) still gets things screwed up. To wit, "Mr. PRR Hopper Car" and good friend John Teichmoeller worked closely with Eastern Car Works on their production of the N&W/PRR H2. And in my opinion, and John knows this as we have discussed it privately, the final product is not as good as it could have been. I posted my comments on this model to both PRR-Talk and PRR-Modeling several months ago. This is not John's fault. Bill Strassner and others have had the same problems with the G-scale - G-gauge providers (whatever that big stuff is - ????? - Babel I haven't figured this one out yet - probably never will), to wit even simple stuff like wrong colors, wrong numbers, etc., etc. Those disagreeing with my thoughts should contact me with an example of what they consider to be a "model" model article and the reason(s) it is such. I'll be glad to listen and discuss. Thanx. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:19:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] FW: e-NEWS feedback Fellow PRR fans, historians, modelers, et al. everywhere, Regarding the feedback from the piece in the January 2001 PRRT&HS e-NEWS about modeling articles in "The Keystone," Chuck was somewhat reluctant to answer my request to define the scope of what constitutes a good modeling article for the e-NEWS as he was fearful of its interpretation and potential hale storm. I on the other hand I thought, and still do think, that prospective authors needed some guidelines on what to do before they set out to do it. Chuck has already provided the technical aspects of that in his two author's manuals. However, in my opinion there was, and continues to be, insufficient guidance regarding article scope and content. Chuck didn't want to comment on this so as not to stifle anyone's creative abilities, which is understandable. I on the other hand didn't want someone to spend a lot of time developing something only to find it was not completely appropriate. Obviously Chuck was correct, as it has again produced a hale storm. However, I for one, am pleased it is out in the open and being discussed as this is the only way we will make meaningful progress. The modeling subject is problematic (maybe even a sore subject) for many people but then again so is Roe v. Wade and we are all entitled to our opinions as well as rants and raves, although the latter tend to be less constructive. When I ran for the PRRT&HS BoD the info statement accompanying the ballot, said that I would try to encompass more modeling into the society. That is still my position. I still believe that more articles in "The Keystone" could be geared to satisfying the modeler whilst concurrently satisfying the historian/buff. Articles about the historic aspects of the PRR are nice (such as what happened on the Humpty Dumpty Branch in 1860, etc. and Lord knows I'm penning a few of these myself) but they need to be balanced by the technical things that appeal to both the modeler and the historian/fan. For example, I believe we should publish more technical information on right-of-way design standards, equipment designs (like the recent class XL article), building and equipment painting schemes, sign colors and usage, information on freight and passenger train operations, traffic flows, (these latter items are for the operations oriented modelers - let's not forget them) etc., etc. This is no secret - Chuck B. and I have discussed this between ourselves before. These are all articles geared to the modeler. But somebody has to submit them. So if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Let me clarify someone's comment regarding the BoD not being interested in modeling. Dick Adams - formerly modeled PRR in HO, currently has LGB OR&W(PRR) narrow gauge. Chuck Blardone - models Colorado Narrow Gauge in Sn3, layout in progress. Bob Brubaker - models PRR in HO, the Newtown Square Branch, Philadelphia Division, layout underway. Al Buchan - models PRR in HO, the E&P Branch, Lake Division, layout in progress - see RMJ Feb 2001. Ivan Frantz - models PRR in HO, layout patterned after the NC Branch, Maryland Division. Active in York Club. Many entries in Annual Meeting Contest with awards. Fred Shaefer - models PRR in HO, active with the Altoona Club, models complete trains in different time periods, plans to build an area of PRR mainline. Also has some O scale, Dave Scott - models PRR in O and HO, mostly HO steam, unbelievable collection with layout to come, after the basement gets dewatered. Now I'm sure the complaint will be that no one on the BoD models in N scale. There is a plethora of model railroad magazines that tell us modelers how to create models - some mags do it better than others, depending on what stage you're at in the life cycle of modeling. But how many magazines are there that tell us, on a continuous basis, about the historical and technical aspects of the PRR? Yes, you're right if you said ONE - "The Keystone." So why should the one magazine that attempts to enlighten the entire PRR audience (modelers and historians/fans) about "their" railroad, attempt to now tell them IN DETAIL how to take today's model of the class XYZ piece of equipment and make it more accurate, when there are already 6+ mags out there doing it? If years ago "The Keystone" devoted several pages on how to make the Trains Miniature version of its HO scale plate end X29 into a more accurate model - that space, in my opinion, although maybe nice then, would have, in the long run, been wasted as there are today more accurate versions. Jerry Britton summed this situation up extremely well when he said - "Chuck has to triage the content of a modeling article for longevity. The Keystone is expensive to produce and we cannot afford to waste pages on material that has a shelf life of only a few years." Let me try to offer some guidelines that, in my opinion, might provide some common ground regarding modeling content. I personally think Greg Martin's current two part MLM series on the PA perhaps comes close to being what a "Keystone" modeling article might be. There were diagrams and text with very good info. However, I'm hung up on 17 photos of an undec shell and chassis showing the implementation of his "Pennsyized" fixes no matter how good they are (and that was just in Part 2). I personally don't want to open "The Keystone" and see someone telling me how to apply some specific after market detail part to some other manufacturers model. If I know where it goes I can figure out how to do it. If you can't take prototype photos, diagrams, plans and other technical information and turn them into a model no amount of articles in "The Keystone" is going to get you to that level. You need to take Modeling Railroads 101 which is best done by reading modeling magazines and the several good "how to" books on the market. Greg and I have talked about the modeling article subject between ourselves, off line before and will probably continue to do so, trying to reach agreement - I hope. He told me that Bob Hundman expunged a lot of the prototype data that was in the PA articles - that was too bad. I will also say again what I said in the e-NEWS - how about an article on C-Liners and the Erie builts, including plans and diagrams that show where the trainphone antenna equipment goes, how the back door and lift rings are really built, etc., etc? Wither's recent book on the FM units is a help, but there are no plans or diagrams. Take a look at the back end of the C-Liner on page 339 and then look at your P1K model. Big difference? Yes. I can come up with a reasonable diagram/plan of my own (and have done so) on how to correct this but it sure would be nice to have the actual as built drawing of this published, perhaps in "The Keystone," but no instructions on how to fabricate it in styrene or any other material. If somebody wanted to discuss the differences between the class X29 freight and passenger car versions so modifications could be made to a Red Caboose kit perhaps there is a modeling article for publishing, including diagrams as to where the additional hardware goes, but not how to attach Part A to Part B. This would show both the modelers and the historians/fans what the differences between the two versions were and both sides of the aisle should be reasonably satisfied. Someone asked if the class X26 article in the December MLM is a good example of an article for "The Keystone." In my opinion the answer is no. Its like the example given above regarding the TM HO X29. An article that might serve as an example for modeling articles in "The Keystone" is one by Stafford Swain on CN Box cars in the January edition of RMJ. Lots of good pictures nice discussion of differences and no prose about gluing Part A to Part B. The only draw back with that article is - no plans. BTW - although Chuck has a "pipeline" of articles, any of those submitted today that deal with motive power and cars do not get hung up in the "pipeline" - they go out quickly, i.e., there is a dearth of these type articles. A little off the subject of "The Keystone" - regarding modelers working with manufactures - in one post I believe it was Greg who stated - "Is it really only up to the manufacturer to insure that what is produced is correct? We as modelers should be sitting on their door steps checking their work so they will be around and so the if a mistake is made it is caught before production and not after the fact. Think of it this way folks, how comes we never have time to make sure they do it right, but we always seem to find time to criticize them for making the errors. Be proactive." I agree with this, however, I know modelers who have worked with manufactures - and they (the manufacturer) still gets things screwed up. To wit, "Mr. PRR Hopper Car" and good friend John Teichmoeller worked closely with Eastern Car Works on their production of the N&W/PRR H2. And in my opinion, and John knows this as we have discussed it privately, the final product is not as good as it could have been. I posted my comments on this model to both PRR-Talk and PRR-Modeling several months ago. This is not John's fault. Bill Strassner and others have had the same problems with the G-scale - G-gauge providers (whatever that big stuff is - ????? - Babel I haven't figured this one out yet - probably never will), to wit even simple stuff like wrong colors, wrong numbers, etc., etc. Those disagreeing with my thoughts should contact me with an example of what they consider to be a "model" model article and the reason(s) it is such. I'll be glad to listen and discuss. Thanx. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:48:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: e-NEWS feedback Hi List, I have to say right on to this statement. I have a collection of magazines that tell me how to make this car or that car. What I need are PRR specific plans diagrams and photographs of the real thing so I can make my models look more realistic. (I'm not interested in china, but recognize others maybe and have a right to get what they want too.) << But how many magazines are there that tell us, on a continuous basis, about the historical and technical aspects of the PRR? Yes, you're right if you said ONE - "The Keystone." So why should the one magazine that attempts to enlighten the entire PRR audience (modelers and historians/fans) about "their" railroad, attempt to now tell them IN DETAIL how to take today's model of the class XYZ piece of equipment and make it more accurate, when there are already 6+ mags out there doing it? >> We are in addition to the waste cited by Jerry, wasting the available time of another irreplaceable resource. The first hand experts who lived and worked on the PRR. The ones whos experiences and photographs tell the story we want to know. Once they are gone, their knowledge can never be replaced. << Jerry Britton summed this situation up extremely well when he said - "Chuck has to triage the content of a modeling article for longevity. The Keystone is expensive to produce and we cannot afford to waste pages on material that has a shelf life of only a few years." I personally think Greg Martin's current two part MLM series on the PA perhaps comes close to being what a "Keystone" modeling article might be. There were diagrams and text with very good info. >> Greg put literally months of hours into research for that article. But if we can get the raw data in the Keystone, the Greg's of this hobby can put it into a format that the rest can follow. Not everybody can or will put in the kind of time Greg did to make it right. My idea of a modeling oriented article is the information to design how to make the model, don't waste space on the modeling process, give me the diagrams and photos to work from. << how about an article on C-Liners and the Erie builts, including plans and diagrams that show where the trainphone antenna equipment goes, how the back door and lift rings are really built, etc., etc? Wither's recent book on the FM units is a help, but there are no plans or diagrams. Take a look at the back end of the C-Liner on page 339 and then look at your P1K model. Big difference? Yes. I can come up with a reasonable diagram/plan of my own (and have done so) on how to correct this but it sure would be nice to have the actual as built drawing of this published, perhaps in "The Keystone," but no instructions on how to fabricate it in styrene or any other material. >> Like I said, give us the raw material, we have the geniuses to make it happen. My .02 Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:05:40 EST Subject: [PRR] FW: e-NEWS feedback In a message dated 1/23/01 6:43:35 PM Central Standard Time, abbuchan1@home.com writes: << how about an article on C-Liners and the Erie builts, including plans and diagrams that show where the trainphone antenna equipment goes, how the back door and lift rings are really built, etc., etc? ... but no instructions on how to fabricate it in styrene or any other material. >> First, excellent post, Al. Second, you touch on what is needed. I am in the process of trying to piece together a PRR Erie-built and posting to two or three lists in the process. I don't need Model Railroading 101 to tell me how to put on antennas or fabricate a steam generator. I would just like to see a photo or diagram of the rear and top of a unit (as well as other views) , perhaps with a callout of the details. For example, what is the reason for the air pipe added to the roof of the last 12 A-units, which didn't have dynamic brakes? When was it added? Was it added to the first two batches? What is its exact location and what are its dimensions in 1:1 scale. I'll figure out what material and convert the prototype dimensions to my scale. I can also compare a model to the prototype and see what needs to be added or deleted to make a Pennsy unit from a current hobby manufacturer model. Prototype information on whether all or part of a batch of units had a feature is useful. IMNSHO (in my not so humble opinion). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 05:03:38 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Partial bibliography of CT1000 et al., 5th revision Thanks to (in alphabetical order) Bob Johnson, Pat McKinney, Paul Schopp, Garry Spear, Dave Wartell for information received. We now know that from most recent to earliest known, the documents were form CT1000, CR76, 76CR. The title varied, apparently always mentioning "List of Stations and Sidings" and also "Instructions for ... Report" where the report referred to either the superintendent of car service, or the conductor's report. Editions were printed in: 1946 Supplement to 1945 edition, date not certain 1945 ------------+ 1923 | 1918 | 1915 | 1913 | 1911 Form C. T. 1000 ???? | (???? means "don't know") 1903 | 1902 | 1901 | 1900 ------------+ 1899 Form number not known ???? Form number not known 1895 ------------+ ???? | 1891 Form C. R. 76 ???? | 1888 | 1887 ------------+ ???? Form number not known 1882 ------------+ ???? Form 76 C. R. 1879 ------------+ 1878 Form number not known ???? Note that some of the entries above are inferred. That is, all we know of the 1899 book is that the 1900 book says it supercedes "...the edition of 1899". I suggest four lines of inquiry: 1. Fill in the gaps (eliminate the ????) 2. Work out what "subset" books were printed in each year. 3. Work out the Region/Grand Division/Division structure for each year in which a CT1000 was printed. (The CT1000's themselves should help in that.) 4. Catalog the "other information" in each year's CT1000/CR76/76CR. (Lists of track scales, tables of car numbers, like that.) Also, let's not forget that the Lines West had PL506, the Long Island had CR4, and it seems reasonable that the PRSL would have had something. Does anyone have data on those publications? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:44:13 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR: Looking for Bill Nixon From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Bill Nixon. If you are still on this list, please respond offline. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Re: Clickety-clack (fwd) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 101 11:18:50 -0500 (EST) Thought I would pass this along to the group. My secretary originally found this, if you can believe it. Knowing my interests, she sent it along. (See comments below.) > From my daily email subscription > You don't need a speedometer on a train. To approximately > gauge the speed, just note the number of clicks you hear in > 20 seconds (not guaranteed accurate if someone nearby is > using a computer mouse.) That number will be close to the > speed in miles per hour. I, of course, had to check it out. It's _close_, but not quite correct. The suggested "20 seconds" is actually a bad choice, because with this number the formula UNDERestimates your speed. The math goes as follows: (use Courier or a similar monospaced (nonproportional) font to view) N clicks N clicks 60 sec 60 min 39 ft mile -------- = -------- x ------ x ------ x ----- x ------- 20 sec 20 sec min hr click 5280 ft 60 x 60 x 39 x 1 click x sec x min x ft x mile = ---------------- x ----------------------------- 20 x 5280 sec x min x hr x click x ft = 1.329 x N mi/hr. (For those who double-check the unit conversions above, note that the equation starts with N clicks/20 sec = N clicks/20 sec, which certainly is true, and that each additional fraction on the right is simply the number "1" in disguise. And multiplication by 1 results in an identical quantity. Working this backwards, then, the number of clicks in 26.6 seconds equals the number of miles per hour (assuming the obvious, which is jointed rail of constant 39-foot lengths and the counting of clicks from only the front wheel of only 1 side of the lead locomotive!) So in round numbers, 27 seconds or 30 seconds would be a better number to use. Next time one of youz rides between Harrisburg and Lancaster (and sometime soon!), check it out. (On the older, badder SEPTA of the 1980s, one would of course replace clickety-clacks by side-to-side lurches of the MU. :-) -- Mark bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:46:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Re: Clickety-clack (fwd) Or, since 60 mph is exactly 88 ft/s, the number of seconds to go 60 rail lengths (2340 ft) is 2340/88 = 25.59 seconds (same result). But the harder question is, what is the formula for welded rail? Or where do you find a train to ride anymore on jointed rail? John Bobsin. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Re: Clickety-clack (fwd) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 101 12:01:48 -0500 (EST) bobsin@nac.net scribit: > > But the harder question is, what is the formula for welded rail? Or > where do you find a train to ride anymore on jointed rail? As I posted :-), between Harrisburg and Lancaster. (Or many of the SEPTA suburban lines.) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:32:43 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Clickety-clack (a proposal) --- bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Or, since 60 mph is exactly 88 ft/s, the number of > seconds to go > 60 rail lengths (2340 ft) is 2340/88 = 25.59 seconds > (same result). > But the harder question is, what is the formula for > welded rail? Or > where do you find a train to ride anymore on jointed > rail? John points to a fundamental difficulty in determining train speed, given current track structure standards. I propose that the FRA immediately require the rail on all routes used by passenger trains be modified by filing a notch 1/8" wide by 1/16" deep every 29' 4". In order to simplify the counting of clicks for 20 seconds, and to reduce the cost of this much-needed modification, only one of the two rails need be modified. I realize that this will meet with opposition from traditionalists who will claim that the proposal is one-sided and does not provide the CLICK-CLICK click-click CLICK-CLICK click-click cadence so beloved by proponents of the now old-fashioned staggered joints. But we must move forward, in this new century; nay, this new millenium. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:20:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Looking For These ETT's From: Jerry Britton I am looking to purchase the following Employe Timetables issued Sept. 26, 1954: New York Division Middle Division Susquehanna Division Northern Division Pittsburgh Division Lake Division Please contact me if you have one you are willing to part with. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:21:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Timonium, Anyone? From: Jerry Britton Anyone going to the Timonium show this weekend? Most likely I will be attending on Saturday. This tends to be their biggest show each year. Over 600 tables sold and its in the "Cow Palace". ...And this year it is not the same weekend as Springfield! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] S1 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:25:45 -0000 I was discussing the S1 with some friends at my local model railway club last night and we were trying to find out the driver size, but cannot find any information. If any one knows I would appreciate being able to answer the question! Thanks Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:32:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] S1 Patrick, 84" Drivers on the S1 Duplex. Wonder what they looked like at 100 mph...Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:43:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] S1 From: Jerry Britton On 1/24/01 3:32 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > 84" Drivers on the S1 Duplex. Wonder what they looked like at 100 > mph Guess it depends on your vantage point...from the cab or standing on the tracks in front of her!!! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:18:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] S1 In a message dated 1/24/01 2:43:28 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << 84" Drivers on the S1 Duplex. Wonder what they looked like at 100 mph...Gary. >> And as I pointed out on another list, that Loewy design at 100 mph with 84 inch drivers, PLUS an air horn, must have shook up the folks in 1940-41! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:16:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium, Anyone? From: Jerry Britton On 1/24/01 5:40 PM, lmatt at (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote: > I'll be there on Saturday. I'm picking up another Pete Lerro watercolor for > my collection. I'll be there in the middle of the day. > He came out with a new one last year, entitled "Harrisburg Glory Days". The Mrs. gave it to me for Christmas. It is looking eastward from about the area of HARRIS tower, circa 1949. the Reading station is in the left background, with the PRR trainshed in the right background. The main object is a T-1 leading a train out of the station. Two GG-1's are in the station. Some sort of other steamer is entering the scene, and a B-1 rat is barely visible. Awesome scene! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Timonium, Anyone? Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:22:05 -0500 If my wife decides that I've got enough work done this week, maybe she'll let the kids and me take a ride. Cos Anyone going to the Timonium show this weekend? Most likely I will be attending on Saturday. This tends to be their biggest show each year. Over 600 tables sold and its in the "Cow Palace". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:34:27 -0500 Subject: [PRR] "Magic Brook" For Sale From: Jerry Britton Got $25K laying around? You can have your very own ex-PRR "Magic Brook" sleeper, once assigned to the "Broadway Limited"... http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/sleep.dine.lounge/5009/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:43:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Another J Coming!!! Lists, Several weeks ago I mentioned that Key Imports is planning another run of J1's in HO and N Scale. Tonight I found out some inside info that another J1 will or may be coming our way. This time in 3 Rail. Yep, Lionel! That is if the possible closing of the Michigan Plant has no adverse affect on the company. The way things have been going lately, don't be surprised if MTH jumps on the band wagon too. Remember the T1's. 3, thats right 3 T1's (MTH, Lionel, Sunset 3rd Rail) were released the same time just months ago. I was also told tonight if Lionel and MTH dosn't produce the J, Sunset will rerelease theirs. Isn't it nice to be a Pennsy fan!!!!! By the way, all the info for the New HO Key J1 project is being sent out to Key tomorrow. The ball is in their court now. Hopefully #6418 and #6160 are due by this time next year...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 22:29:46 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: e-NEWS feedback Gize, I would like to reply to what Al has written at least in part... in context. Al is right, he and I have a common thread and are sharing some thoughts offline and some with Chuck. I think that we might be narrowing the field and I see a compromise coming, honestly one that would be pleasing to all. BUT I AM NOT AN AUTHORITY just an author and I AM NOT AN EDITOR, just a columnist... I will leaver that to the pro's like Chuck and all the other editors out there. So here goes... <> Thanks Al, I kind of like the darn thing too. I would have loved to have changed the format a bit and did it for the Keystone too, but Mainline Modeler is as close as I could come. But the other magazines, I wouldn have never considered it. <> Well now that is the format of the Editor, he drives that "look" for his magazine, it is not my choice that is what Bob wants not necessarily what Chuck might want. But in defense of Bob, "a picture is worth a thousand words." He needs to appeal to a wider group, the Keystone doesn't and if need be, we are a small enough group we clould likely get that deleted "step by step" info to an indiviual, correct? Personally I would have liked more photos of the PA's in Action, but the article was already over a year old when published because I was constantly correcting little things regarding the development of of the engines. PAGE SPACE IS A PREMIUM! BOB affords me a lot of freedom. <> Speaking for yourself, but others may and like I say the format is that of the Editor. <> Well, all Editors make compromises and I plan to reprint the entire historical information on my shared website (Al Stump did you catch that? Remind me!). AL and Chuck and I will continue to talk offline as I have been doing articles along time on modeling, but I ain't no expert, Hell, I can't even type or spell. We are getting close. But the group needs to continue to chew on this as we will find someone who is thinking out of the box. JUST DON'T MAKE IT PERSONAL. Kris Kollar get in here and make a couple of comments as a budding author, don't leave me in the cold. <> One is forth coming (ERIE BUILTS) but where is yet to be determined. It is already in the works and will be similar to my PA article but not by me. I am focusing on the FM C-LINER and the B-units will be out in a month or two. <> Rear end shots of all diesel are a premium, bless Dave Sweetland for his shot of 5759. It reveals a lot to the investigative modeler. My drawing were based on what he did, but did the 5759 have a back up light?, who knows I couldn't find one shot of the opposite side of the dang thing. <> This to will be revealed as my brother has a lot of photos of the underside of one or two and is preparing an article on the X-29 more informative than the one I did years ago. <> I have that one covered Al, it will be coming out in the future. <> Again, a different Editor's formate. To me of some value but a bit modeling shallow. <> Yep, I said it and I stand firm on my words. I will likely take flack for the work I did (with three other fantastic modeler/historians)on the Athearn Genesis units. But hey, here is my email address bitch away(TGREGMRTN@AOL.COM). <> Well, a small group of us are working with a manufacturer who wants to produce the PRR G-38 and G-39 and I am confident that it will be very good. The informationis being sent to begin production. And I am working with a well know manufacuturer on the R-50b but it is likely 2 years away, just the way the business goes. Bruce Smith is working to insure a very well regarded manufacturer gets their steam engine correct and I saw samples of the TRAIN STUFF tender and even the throw outs are great, Merlin I am begging you for one. <> Al excsue me for using this forum but we need to get more input from the "bone heads" like me. Remember all of these project I have mentioned have come about without me belonging to the society. The information is available, but if the society could just shift it's postion just a little, we could likely make it grow bigger and better than ever. Hell, I might even... Greg Martin just a CRAzY SPF kin'a guy "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Wash. Terminal maps Date: Wed, 24 Jan 101 23:59:49 -0500 (EST) Gents: sorry for posting this to a public forum, as it was originally asked of me privately. However, I have lost the name of the original poster. I have been asked about diagrams of Washington Terminal. Most of them are now available, and all will be very soon. The diagrams even include a large section of the coach yard and engine facilities. They are a wonderful study in stub terminal design. (Yes, I know, quit rivet counting, WT is a combination through-and-stub. MOST traffic was stub.) The diagrams are, for now, at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ , though the entire site is moving to http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/...etc. soon. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Kato SD40's Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:47:02 +1100 Listers, Good News & Bad News First the Good News Kato are definately doing another run of SD40's Now the Bad News No PRR or even Undecorated only AC, WC, Conrail, I&M, ATSF, UP, CP, GM&O Bummer Apparently they are upgraded with MU hoses etc. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Details West Home Page Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:34:00 +1100 Listers, This may be of interest to you, If not hit delete!! http://www.detailswest.com/ Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:17:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: e-NEWS feedback Greg & Lists - Well said. It is becoming more apparent that there is a common ground between historian and modeler. For the last year and a half I have been in contact with both and found you all to be gentlemen of the first order. Chuck is probably one of the nicest guys I've corresponded with and really wants to protect the interests of all while keeping the integrity of the Keystone. Jerry Britton's posts are also very informative. He seems to have many ideas and new thoughts to contribute. So again congratulations Greg. Of course I always knew you'd jump on the train instead of standing in front of it. ;-) Merlin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:10:21 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] "Magic Brook" For Sale Great color fotos of the interior of an "AHM" duplex sleeper. This is the prototype for those cars! BTW the website has the wrong URL for fotos 2,3,&4. Edit the URL to say 5009 instead of 500 and they will come up. There are pictures of the double bedroom interior, and both the lower and 2 of the upper single bdrs. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > Got $25K laying around? You can have your very own ex-PRR "Magic Brook" > sleeper, once assigned to the "Broadway Limited"... > > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/sleep.dine.lounge/5009/ > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:14:26 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Another J Coming!!! Now if only Bowser would get their project back on track (four track). Then those of us who do not collect toy trains and do not own oil wells, yachts and brass locos could also have a J! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Gary Mittner wrote: > > Lists, > > Several weeks ago I mentioned that Key Imports is planning another > run of J1's in HO and N Scale. Tonight I found out some inside info > that another J1 will or may be coming our way. This time in 3 Rail. Yep, > Lionel! That is if the possible closing of the Michigan Plant has no > adverse affect on the company. > The way things have been going lately, don't be surprised if MTH > jumps on the band wagon too. Remember the T1's. 3, thats right 3 T1's > (MTH, Lionel, Sunset 3rd Rail) were released the same time just months > ago. I was also told tonight if Lionel and MTH dosn't produce the J, > Sunset will rerelease theirs. Isn't it nice to be a Pennsy fan!!!!! > By the way, all the info for the New HO Key J1 project is being > sent out to Key tomorrow. The ball is in their court now. Hopefully > #6418 and #6160 are due by this time next year...Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 > and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:09:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] S1 In a message dated 1/25/01 8:07:16 AM Central Standard Time, PRR5499@att.net writes: << Do you know if the S-1 had a whistle on it too? >> I don't know. I was always under the impression it did. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:14:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Another J Coming!!! From: Jerry Britton On 1/25/01 9:14 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Now if only Bowser would get their project back on track (four track). > Then those of us who do not collect toy trains and do not own oil wells, > yachts and brass locos could also have a J! > Sadly, the Bowser J is on indefinite HOLD. My information comes straight from Lee English, as of December. He's got other projects planned that have a much better rate of return. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Another J Coming!!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:14:22 -0500 Who knows? As the saying goes, "when it rains, it pours" ;-) Ted -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 9:14 AM To: Gary Mittner Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Another J Coming!!! Now if only Bowser would get their project back on track (four track). Then those of us who do not collect toy trains and do not own oil wells, yachts and brass locos could also have a J! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Gary Mittner wrote: > > Lists, > > Several weeks ago I mentioned that Key Imports is planning another > run of J1's in HO and N Scale. Tonight I found out some inside info > that another J1 will or may be coming our way. This time in 3 Rail. Yep, > Lionel! That is if the possible closing of the Michigan Plant has no > adverse affect on the company. > The way things have been going lately, don't be surprised if MTH > jumps on the band wagon too. Remember the T1's. 3, thats right 3 T1's > (MTH, Lionel, Sunset 3rd Rail) were released the same time just months > ago. I was also told tonight if Lionel and MTH dosn't produce the J, > Sunset will rerelease theirs. Isn't it nice to be a Pennsy fan!!!!! > By the way, all the info for the New HO Key J1 project is being > sent out to Key tomorrow. The ball is in their court now. Hopefully > #6418 and #6160 are due by this time next year...Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 > and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another J Coming!!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:10:52 -0500 I second that motion! Sam Vastano >From: Andy Miller >To: Gary Mittner >CC: PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PRR-Modeling@egroups.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Another J Coming!!! >Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:14:26 -0500 > >Now if only Bowser would get their project back on track (four track). >Then those of us who do not collect toy trains and do not own oil wells, >yachts and brass locos could also have a J! > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >=================================================== > >Gary Mittner wrote: > > > > Lists, > > > > Several weeks ago I mentioned that Key Imports is planning another > > run of J1's in HO and N Scale. Tonight I found out some inside info > > that another J1 will or may be coming our way. This time in 3 Rail. Yep, > > Lionel! That is if the possible closing of the Michigan Plant has no > > adverse affect on the company. > > The way things have been going lately, don't be surprised if MTH > > jumps on the band wagon too. Remember the T1's. 3, thats right 3 T1's > > (MTH, Lionel, Sunset 3rd Rail) were released the same time just months > > ago. I was also told tonight if Lionel and MTH dosn't produce the J, > > Sunset will rerelease theirs. Isn't it nice to be a Pennsy fan!!!!! > > By the way, all the info for the New HO Key J1 project is being > > sent out to Key tomorrow. The ball is in their court now. Hopefully > > #6418 and #6160 are due by this time next year...Gary > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> > > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > > .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 > > and...... > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:45:46 -0500 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato SD40's --On Thursday, January 25, 2001 08:47:02 PM +1100 Graeme Nitz wrote: > Listers, > > Good News & Bad News > > First the Good News > > Kato are definately doing another run of SD40's > > Now the Bad News > > No PRR or even Undecorated only The PRR on the first run of SD40s is rather poor; The numerals on the cab don't match any font I ever saw on a Pennsy loco, and my opinion is their color is too green and not enough dark. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:00:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato SD40's From: Jerry Britton On 1/25/01 10:45 AM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >> No PRR or even Undecorated only Correct no PRR or undecorated offered. If you are in to stripping a unit down, I do have the Conrail units listed on the Advance Reservation page of "MS". --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Kato SD40's Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:38:35 -0500 In addition, the keystones were too small and were painted red with gold trim, not the correct red with white trim. Ted -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 10:46 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato SD40's --On Thursday, January 25, 2001 08:47:02 PM +1100 Graeme Nitz wrote: > Listers, > > Good News & Bad News > > First the Good News > > Kato are definately doing another run of SD40's > > Now the Bad News > > No PRR or even Undecorated only The PRR on the first run of SD40s is rather poor; The numerals on the cab don't match any font I ever saw on a Pennsy loco, and my opinion is their color is too green and not enough dark. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Promotional Material ?? Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:56:24 -0600 List & PRRT&HS Members, I have wondered if the PRRT&HS has some sort of promotional material that we members could handout at train shows. I sell at over a dozen such show every year and would be glad to set aside a little table space for PRRT&HS membership information. I'm sure other members would be happy to do the same. Is this available to members? If yes, who do I contact. Thanks, Pete Reinhold PRRT&HS #5518 Universal Die & Stampings preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:19:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Promotional Material ?? From: Jerry Britton On 1/25/01 2:56 PM, Peter Reinhold (preinhol@unidie.com) wrote: > I have wondered if the PRRT&HS has some sort of promotional material > that we members could handout at train shows. I sell at over a dozen such > show every year and would be glad to set aside a little table space for > PRRT&HS membership information. I'm sure other members would be happy to do > the same. Is this available to members? If yes, who do I contact. > Good idea. I don't think there is, but something could be created and distributed via their web site as a PDF document. Then those going to shows could print out copies. (I do this with a PDF promo for "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk", available on the main page of my site.) Such a file could also be made available via other web sites...I know I would be more than happy to provide it via my sites. (I provided last year's convention materials in this form and several people used it to register.) I have CC'd my response to a few Society executive board members for whom I have addresses with me. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Promotional Material ?? Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:23:25 -0500 Pete, I know years ago there was a PRRT&hs brochure that even had a membership application in it. I haven't seen anything recently though. I would say to contact the membership director at the address that dues are sent to. Chris Chany Pete Reinhold wrote: I have wondered if the PRRT&HS has some sort of promotional material that we members could handout at train shows. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:24:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT Super Bowl Weekend Sale From: Jerry Britton ************************************************************************* * * * eSTORE * * * * http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ * * * * NEW ARRIVALS * * * * http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_new.html * * * * ADVANCE RESERVATIONS * * * * http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html * * * ************************************************************************* SUPER BOWL WEEKEND SALE Now through midnight this Sunday, "Merchandise Service" is running a Super Bowl Sale. You'll have to visit our site for details, but I will tell you in advance that all orders get free shipping for starters!!! http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_sale.html Remember, your purchases through "Merchandise Service" support operations of the PENNSYRR.COM and RAILFANCENTRAL.COM web domains, as well as numerous railroad lists to which you are subscribed. Thank you for your support! ----------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, President jbritton@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. Web hosting and design http://www.dsop.com "Merchandise Service" Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:27:01 -0500 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium, Anyone? I am planning to go on Saturday. Dave At 2:21 PM -0500 1/24/01, Jerry Britton wrote: >Anyone going to the Timonium show this weekend? > >Most likely I will be attending on Saturday. This tends to be their biggest >show each year. Over 600 tables sold and its in the "Cow Palace". > >...And this year it is not the same weekend as Springfield! >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:30:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Meeting Up At Timonium This Saturday From: Jerry Britton Seems as if there are a lot of PRR-Talkers attending Timonium tomorrow. Rather than schedule individual meets, I thought we might all gather at once and meet each other. My first thought was around the Northern Virginia N-Track group, but if I recall they were not on the list for this show. I tried to double-check, but the show's web site is down at the moment. Let's do this, let's meet around the model railroads. There is usually some type of center aisle in this area. So look there. Time? Let's go for 11:00 a.m. I'll stick around until 11:15 a.m. if nobody is there, just to be sure. If people show, we can stay much longer. I'll have on a PRRT&HS Cyber Division shirt...look for the patch on the chest. With me will be three-year-old Andrew... he'll be the blonde-haired kid climbing for a better view of the layouts! Don't be shy, hope to see you there! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:10:17 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting Up At Timonium This Saturday Sorry I will miss the PRR-Talkers at Timonium. Living in the Boston area, I will be going to Springfield next week. Anyone else going there? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > Seems as if there are a lot of PRR-Talkers attending Timonium tomorrow. > Rather than schedule individual meets, I thought we might all gather at once > and meet each other. . . . > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Meeting Up At Timonium This Saturday Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:14:44 -0500 Andy and the List, I am hoping to get to Springfield next weekend I'm not sure yet on which day. Chris Chany Andy Miller wrote: Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting Up At Timonium This Saturday Sorry I will miss the PRR-Talkers at Timonium. Living in the Boston area, I will be going to Springfield next week. Anyone else going there? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:35:01 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting Up At Timonium This Saturday Chris, I will be there Saturday. If that is your plan, let me know. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > > Andy and the List, > > I am hoping to get to Springfield next weekend I'm not sure yet on which > day. > > Chris Chany > > Andy Miller wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting Up At Timonium This Saturday > > Sorry I will miss the PRR-Talkers at Timonium. Living in the Boston > area, I will be going to Springfield next week. Anyone else going > there? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:43:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Springfield Show Andy & list - I will be there (Springfield). Trainstuff does the show. We were in the Strou building last year. Don't know exactly where we will be this year. Stop in and say hello. Dayna Trainstuff LLC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:58:07 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: Springfield Show See you there! I'll be wearing a Tuscan Red North Shore Model RR Club shirt, with a keystone on the lapel :-) DWa9975062@aol.com wrote: > > Andy & list - I will be there (Springfield). Trainstuff does the show. We > were in the Strou building last year. Don't know exactly where we will be > this year. Stop in and say hello. > Dayna > Trainstuff LLC -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:31:38 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] EMAIL ALERT BRUCE SMITH contact me... Bruce, Cintact me offline... More steam issues to deal with. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] Interlocking (signal) diagram symbols Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:52:44 -0500 Hello list, Any one out there know where I can access a diagram of the key to the symbols used on PRR Interlocking Diagrams. (Those little stick figure things that look like semaphores). I know I've seen them on the Web, but can't remember where. Mark Bej had a page on his site but it is inaccessable. Anyone able to help. Thanks all. Buzz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:30:50 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking (signal) diagram symbols --- "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > Hello list, > Any one out there know where I can access a diagram > of the key to the > symbols > used on PRR Interlocking Diagrams. (Those little > stick figure things that > look like > semaphores). I know I've seen them on the Web, but > can't remember where. Try: http://raildata.railfan.net/prr/prrsigsym/symbols1.html ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] [AD] Athearn Genesis PRR F-7A's Arrive! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:42:01 -0500 The first shipment of Athearn Genesis PRR F-7A's have been received. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking (signal) diagram symbols Date: Fri, 26 Jan 101 17:39:34 -0500 (EST) Burnley, Charles scribit: > > Hello list, > Any one out there know where I can access a diagram of the key to the > symbols > used on PRR Interlocking Diagrams. (Those little stick figure things that > look like > semaphores). I know I've seen them on the Web, but can't remember where. > Mark > Bej had a page on his site but it is inaccessable. Anyone able to help. > Thanks all. Buzz, you probably had a direct link to the page. Access that link again. Then, replace www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm with broadway.pennsyrr.com and you will see it. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:27:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] [AD] Athearn Genesis PRR F-7A's Arrive! From: Jerry Britton On 1/26/01 5:42 PM, Dennis @ D & S Hobbies at (dennis@onerrave.com) wrote: > The first shipment of Athearn Genesis PRR F-7A's have been received. > Ditto from Merchandise Service...wow!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:28:17 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] New Mantua PRR Atlantic Hello list, I just received my copy of Mantua's 2001 catalog. Finally, a picture of their latest PRR atlantic, their item # 357-520. Mantua has essentially duplicated their replica of the 460 and numbered it 1067. It has the round cased headlight, twin single phase pumps, generator in front of the stack, Stephenson valve gear, a delta roller bearing trailer (from Mantua's P7 Pacific), and kerosene marker lights mounted even with the number plate, which is circular. One big improvement is a working front coupler; Mantua has switched to Kadee clones. Mantua's model comes closest to an E7s or E3sa light Atlantic. While it has conformance flaws, most are easily correctable. It would probably be best to strip the model to do this. I'm planning on modeling the 8063 during her last years of service in the 1930s, before she was backdated and renumbered to 7002. To get an E7s in the 30s configuration from this latest Mantua model, the dome should be changed (it's the larger, flatter E6s style; replace it with Mantua's M0496 sand dome), the marker lights replaced, a keystone number plate added, and that funky ventilator stuff on the cab needs to go as well. Finally, replace the Delta trailer with Mantua parts M0482, M0462, M0480, 7008, and M10102 to get the inside bearing trailer of an E7s or the very rare and short-lived E3sa. I should note that I'm planning the above modifications on Mantua's collectible line version of the Atlantic, numbered to represent the 460 (doubtless I shall be flogged for desecrating a collectible engine, but I really want that model of the 8063!). >From my perspective, the glass is half full, rather than half empty on this latest Mantua steamer. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 14:47:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Modeling the Life Like Proto 1000 FM Erie builts (FF20)... List Members, Since there seems to be some interest in this subject I would like to share my own research with interested parties in a cooperative modeling effort. I have found photos of the elusive "B" end, car body train phone equipment placement as well as a good roof view. I am a modeler. I seek greater knowledge. I share what I know. No, I don't have all of the answers. If you would like to share or can use what I may have, please contact me off line at ELM2@aol.com . There is no charge for any of this. The photos may not be posted or reprinted without permission of the photographer. I share what I have because of my interest in modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad more accurately. If you have something you can share please write me. If you think what I have may help you in your efforts, please write me (off line please). I am a published author and am working on this locomotive to be a published work for the future (no, not for THE KEYSTONE). Ed Martin banned by Ed Hall, Director Cajon Div., PSR, NMRA, President for life Ed Martin a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving Ed Martin member of the gang of two ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:08:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Train show Lists, This posting is for those in the Denver, Colorado area or who will be in the area on the weekend of Feb. 17/18/19. The Sunrise Div. of the NMRA will hold its annual Presidents' Day weekend train show, Feb. 17 thru the 19. There are usually a dozen or more excellent operating layouts of all scales, scale live steam displays, mini-clinic displays, plus oodles of sales/swap tables to find those out-of-production or hard-to-find "goodies." There is NO admission fee -- yes, it is absolutely free. The Buckingham Square Shopping Mall, located at Havana St. and Mississippi St. in Aurora, Colorado, is the site of the show. This is Colorado's largest not-for-profit train show. If you PRR or RDG types make it to the show please stop by the Sunrise Division's HO modular layout and say HI to "Pennsy - Jay" or "Reading Lines - Evan." Being west of the Mississippi, we both are a little overwhelmed by the WarBonnet/BloodyNose/OverlandShield types and would more than enjoy a little "eastern" company! Hope to see you there! Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:52:42 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: [PRR] Touch-up paint & re-numbering P2K diesels I want to re-number my P2K geeps with the larger,pre-merger numerals. Does anyone know how to only remove the old numbers off of the P2K diesels without affecting the paint? In lieu of that, does anyone have a paint blend that matches the P2K DGLE, that can be used to touch up the areas where the lettering removal might foul the original paint? Thanks, Greg Johnson Modeling the Monongahela Valley in 1967-68 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Risking the wrath but.... Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:42:22 -0500 List members, Seems I have been requested to secure a site (much like this) where a (gasp) NYC fan can hunker down by the fire. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Contact me off site. (runnin out the door) Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:45:51 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] List Price of Mantua's latest PRR atlantic Hello list, Mantua's list price for 357-520, the PRR Atlantic, is $169.99. Naturally, some surfing on the web or through the pages of Model Railroader should net you a lower price if you're so inclined. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 03:42:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] [AD] Athearn Genesis PRR F-7A's Arrive! dennis@onerrave.com writes: << The first shipment of Athearn Genesis PRR F-7A's have been received. >> Dennis, Could you give us a brief review. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:20:54 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Touch-up paint & re-numbering P2K diesels Greg: Try this, it works for me. Put a little decal setting solution over the numbers to be removed. Micro Scale, (red lettered bottle), works fine. Let this set for a few minutes and then gently remove the letters with a pencil eraser. Larry Greg Johnson wrote: > I want to re-number my P2K geeps with the larger,pre-merger numerals. Does > anyone know how to only remove the old numbers off of the P2K diesels > without affecting the paint? In lieu of that, does anyone have a paint blend > that matches the P2K DGLE, that can be used to touch up the areas where the > lettering removal might foul the original paint? > > Thanks, > > Greg Johnson > Modeling the Monongahela Valley in 1967-68 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:26:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Removing unwanted numbers or lettering I haven't done this in a long time, but Walthers usta advertise that their "Solvaset" was a good way to rmove unwanted lettering. Brush it on, let it set - and then use a new pencil eraser (on the end of a pencil) - gently - to do the job. Has worked for me - renumbering cars and/or locos when I accidently acquired "duplicare" numbers. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] [AD] Athearn Genesis PRR F-7A's Arrive! Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:08:12 -0500 Greg, We have a brief review and pictures on our web site at http://www.onerrave.com in our RAILROAD TELEGRAPH Newsletter. In short, I wish more road numbers were available NOW to populate my fleet. It is a great loco and IMHO, WELL worth the wait. Now, if only the Highliners are released to do the Reading and Jersey Central units.... Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax > Dennis, > > Could you give us a brief review. > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:21:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] [AD] Athearn Genesis PRR F-7A's Arrive! From: Jerry Britton On 1/28/01 11:08 AM, Dennis @ D & S Hobbies at (dennis@onerrave.com) wrote: > We have a brief review and pictures on our web site at > http://www.onerrave.com in our RAILROAD TELEGRAPH Newsletter. In short, I > wish more road numbers were available NOW to populate my fleet. It is a > great loco and IMHO, WELL worth the wait. > I second Dennis's request for more road numbers...especially for another B unit since so many photos show A-B-B-A configs. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Reinert Subject: [PRR] Track diagrams have moved... Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:08:07 -0500 (EST) Folks, my Amtrak track disgrams (and interlocking machine photos... there, that makes it officially PRR related :-) have moved from http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps to http://www.blockstation.net. Due to, um, technical difficulties, I can't put a redirect at the old location. (Now that I'm not space-constrained, I may put up photos of my week on the "Mountain" from 1990 as well...) Ken ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 04:22:11 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Partial bibliography of CT1000 et al., 6th revision Thanks for information received to (in alphabetical order) Jim Aldridge, Bob Johnson, Pat McKinney, Paul Schopp, Garry Spear, Dave Wartell. Jim sent word of a photocopy of parts of a 1907 CT1000 which mentions that it supercedes the CT1000 of 1906. Editions were printed in: 1946 Supplement to 1945 edition, date not certain 1945 ------------+ 1923 | 1918 | 1915 | 1913 | 1911 Form C. T. 1000 ???? | (???? means "don't know") 1907 | <--- new information 1906 | <--- new information ???? | 1903 | 1902 | 1901 | 1900 ------------+ 1899 Form number not known ???? Form number not known 1895 ------------+ ???? | 1891 Form C. R. 76 ???? | 1888 | 1887 ------------+ ???? Form number not known 1882 ------------+ ???? Form 76 C. R. 1879 ------------+ 1878 Form number not known ???? It looks like the books were printed yearly at least as recently as 1907 (I know, I'm guessing about 1904 and 1905). Apparently the change to every other year occurred somewhere in that gap between 1907 and 1911. It also looks like we don't know when the CR76 became the CT1000. Sometime between 1895 and 1900, but when? I suggest four lines of inquiry: 1. Fill in the gaps (eliminate the ????) 2. Work out what "subset" books were printed in each year. 3. Work out the Region/Grand Division/Division structure for each year in which a CT1000 was printed. (The CT1000's themselves should help in that.) 4. Catalog the "other information" in each year's CT1000/CR76/76CR. (Lists of track scales, tables of car numbers, like that.) Also, let's not forget that the Lines West had PL506, the Long Island had CR4, and it seems reasonable that the PRSL would have had something. Does anyone have data on those publications? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 04:39:11 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] What data is there in a CT1000? Since I raised the point about cataloging the data available in each CT1000, here's a catalog of what one finds in the 1900 CT1000: The title: [No attempt to reproduce layout] List of Station and Sidings and Instructions For Making Reports to the Car Record Office. The contents: Instructions Abbreviations to be Used When Reporting Cars [as in "reporting marks"] Numbers and Names of Stations and Sidings Numbers and Classification of Cars Classification and Dimensions of Freight Equipment Summary of Car Equipment List of Train-Masters, with Location and Jurisdiction List of Yard-Masters, with Location and Jurisdiction List of Supervisors, with Location and Jurisdiction List of Track Scales, with Names of Weighmasters List of Wagon Scales List of Cranes with Location and Capacity Alphabetical List of Stations and Sidings with Locations and Names of Agents Organizational structure: [from the page headings in Numbers and Names...] U. R. R. of N. J. Div. New York Division Amboy Division Belvidere Division (Belvidere Delaware RR) West Jersey and Seashore Railroad Cape May Division Atlantic City Division Pennsylvania Railroad Division Philadelphia Division Maryland Division Junction RR Schuylkill Division Frederick Division (Columbia and Port Deposit Ry) Middle Division Lewistown Division Kishacoquillas Valley RR Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain RR Bedford Division Tyrone Division Altoona Division Pittsburg Division Cambria and Clearfield Division West Penna. Division Monongahela Division (P. V. & C. Ry) Phila., Wilm. and Balto. RR Maryland Division Baltimore and Potomac RR Washington Southern Ry Central Division Delaware Division (Delaware RR) Baltimore and Delaware Bay RR Northern Central Railway Baltimore Division Susquehanna Division Shamokin Division (Shamokin Valley & Pottsville RR) Elmira Division (E & W RR) Philadelphia and Erie RR Division Sunbury Division Sunbury, Hazleton & Wilkes-Barre Ry North & West Branch Ry Eastern Division Middle Division Western Division Note that there are two Middle Divisions, one on the PRR, one on the P&E. Hoping that others will be moved to hammer out similar lists from their CT1000's, I remain, ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:41:39 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] A quick quiz Howdy Y'all, This may have been posted before, but I was a little surprised...so here's a quick quiz to test your PRR knowledge. THE RULES: 1) Tom V CANNOT compete (he knows the answer, and if he doesn't, he OUGHT to!) ;^) 2) Please do not look up the answer and then post it - the point is do you KNOW the answer? I'll post the correct answer if it hasn't been guessed by the time I leave tonight (5 pm central). THE QUESTION: What was the most numerous sub-class (e.g. N-5a, not N-5(a-e)) of cabin cars on the PRR in 1957? Time to get to work on my roster! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:02:03 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] IHC G's Has anyone successfully stripped the silkscreened numbers without harming the underlying paint? Does anyone know which brand matches the paint on IHC green G's? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:10:54 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] A quick quiz Bruce, et al: N6b, with something like 867 of them surviving until then. Dan Cupper Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > > Howdy Y'all, > > This may have been posted before, but I was a little surprised...so here's > a quick quiz to test your PRR knowledge. > > THE RULES: > 1) Tom V CANNOT compete (he knows the answer, and if he doesn't, he OUGHT > to!) ;^) > 2) Please do not look up the answer and then post it - the point is do you > KNOW the answer? I'll post the correct answer if it hasn't been guessed by > the time I leave tonight (5 pm central). > > THE QUESTION: > What was the most numerous sub-class (e.g. N-5a, not N-5(a-e)) of cabin > cars on the PRR in 1957? > > Time to get to work on my roster! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:26:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC G's From: Jerry Britton On 1/29/01 2:02 PM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote: > Has anyone successfully stripped the silkscreened numbers without harming the > underlying paint? Does anyone know which brand matches the paint on IHC green > G's? Thanks, Norm Bell > I've never tried it. However, having planned to do similar on Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars, I contacted them. Their recommendation was to use a pencil eraser...citing it would be "just abrasive enough" to remove the lettering without damaging the underlying paint. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:35:28 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] A quick quiz Wow! Dan, Derrick and George are right, right off the bat! Even as late as 1957, the N6b was the most numerous single cabin car class! Dan wrote: >N6b, with something like 867 of them surviving until then. The numbers, May 15, 1957 (from Keystone vol 6 no 4, reprinted 2000 by PRRT&HS): ND 4 NDa 1 N5 616 N5a 4 N5b 200 N5c 199 N5d 1 N5e 1 N5f 8 N6a 1 N6b 867 N8 199 NX23 12 Interestingly, not listed is the N4 which was in MOW service, and therefore the N6bs in MOW are also probably not listed. I also wonder what the corresponding numbers from the mid 40s would be? I certainly feel like I need to have a reasonable number of N6b cabins on the layout for 1944! I also note that in the videos that I have from the 30's and 40's, N5s dominate the picture on mainline freights. I wonder if many of the N6b were used for locals? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:05:32 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: N6b assignments (was [PRR] A quick quiz) Jerry wrote > >Morning Sun's new book "Trackside North of Washington DC" has several photos >from October 1957 of the local out of Enola working in York Haven, just a >stone's throw west of Columbia where you are modeling. An N6 (sub-class >unknown to me) is part of the daily consist. That would be an N6b Jerry - narrow cupola right? In '57 there was only a single N6a left on the roster and it was in the Northwester Region. In fact, weren't most of the N6as gone by the '40s? Also, wasn't there a rumor of LaserKit's interst in PRR wood cabins? Anything come of that? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WLHoss@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:31:02 EST Subject: Re: N6b assignments (was [PRR] A quick quiz) In a message dated 01/29/2001 2:27:37 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Also, wasn't there a rumor of LaserKit's interest in PRR wood cabins? Anything come of that? >> They are still looking for a good set of general arrangement drawings. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:26:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: N6b assignments (was [PRR] A quick quiz) PRR Society has the N6 general arrangement drawings. They lack much detail on the underframe. Gene Deimling WLHoss@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/29/2001 2:27:37 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > They are still looking for a good set of general arrangement drawings. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:14:24 -0500 (EST) From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] N-6b Hi all... Where did Model Power,Gloor-Craft and the brass manufacturers get info for these cars? That would also be a start for the underframe. I would assume that the underframe for both the N-6 class and the N-5 class would be somewhat similar,being both were introduced with-in ten years of each other. I do believe elevation plans show a different wheel base for them though. Til Later Hank Mummert Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:49:14 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] N-6b How about visiting the one in Harrisburg at the station. "H.&S." wrote: > > Hi all... > > Where did Model Power,Gloor-Craft and the brass manufacturers > get info for these cars? That would also be a start for > the underframe. I would assume that the underframe > for both the N-6 class and the N-5 class would be > somewhat similar,being both were introduced with-in > ten years of each other. I do believe elevation plans show > a different wheel base for them though. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:16:37 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N-6b Hank and all... << Hi all... Where did Model Power,Gloor-Craft and the brass manufacturers get info for these cars?>> I think Model Powers guessed as the roof is too long, who know maybe Gloor-Craft still has the drawings. <> In a conversation with Richard Burg he stated that the underframes were bought from an outside source in I believe he said Terra Heute, IN. This might be a place to start as I believe they were rebuilt in Lines West. Tom V. is working on an article that will detail why the choice was made to rebuild rather than buy new and I was given a sneek preview of the article and you will all enjoy it. <> The N-5 was the standard if you and the N-6 was the alternate standard. They have little in common. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:29:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: N6b Drawings You will find a listing in the Fall 2000 issue of available drawings and the charges. I am at work and don't have access to the information. I beilieve the drawing charge was around $6.00 or $8.00 for a rather large drawing. Gene Deimling WLHoss@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/29/01 4:24:54 PM Central Standard Time, > endeimling@mindspring.com writes: > > < on the underframe.>> > > Where do you get copies?  The society? Who's the contact?  We were told they > didn't exist. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] N-6b Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:47:27 -0500 Bob Weaver of Weaver models built the kits for the N6....He later sold the HO and N scale business to Gloor Craft. Try contacting Weaver Models in Northumberland, PA. Or give Al Westerfield a try...... He has the best library around... -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: bubbles@visi.net Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, January 29, 2001 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] N-6b >Hank and all... > > > ><< Hi all... > > Where did Model Power,Gloor-Craft and the brass manufacturers get info for these cars?>> > >I think Model Powers guessed as the roof is too long, who know maybe Gloor-Craft still has the drawings. > ><> > >In a conversation with Richard Burg he stated that the underframes were bought from an outside source in I believe he said Terra Heute, IN. This might be a place to start as I believe they were rebuilt in Lines West. > >Tom V. is working on an article that will detail why the choice was made to rebuild rather than buy new and I was given a sneek preview of the article and you will all enjoy it. > ><Til Later >Hank Mummert>> > >The N-5 was the standard if you and the N-6 was the alternate standard. They have little in common. > >Greg Martin > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:14:45 EST Subject: [PRR] Loading a TrucTrain SPFs, I have a question. From my vantage point along the Rutherford intermodal yard west of Harrisburg, PA, I can watch the 2 large, yellow MI-JACK devices load and unload trailers. My question to you is: How was this done in the 50's for the TrucTrain? Were cranes used? Did trucks drive up long ramps alongside the flatcars and parallel park (;^)? Can anyone post a picture or point me to a website or book? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] Loading a TrucTrain Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:31:09 +1100 George, I think you will find that back in those doays they loaded "circus style" ie back the trailer on with a tractor. A slow and tedious way of doing things compared with todays "lift 'em on" method. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:30:51 -0500 (EST) From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] N-4,5 and 6 Hello again all... I was looking at Wayner's "PRR Passenger and Freight car Diagrams". It give the N-6a wheel base as 15' and the N-5 as 19'. The lone N-4 car seems to have had more in common with the N-5 as they both have the same wheel base.(19') Other dimentions although not identical are very close. I remember that MR did a article and drawings on the N-4 a few years ago and mentioned the history and what was left of the car at that time. Is it still around rotting somewhere today ? They mentioned that one side of the car had been removed and that Strasburg did'nt want the car at the time due to its condition. There is a drawing of the N-5 in the Nov.1968 MR if memory serves right. If good underframe drawings of the N-6 can't be found theres always the good old fashioned way of crawling under one that still exists and measuring and photoing everything in sight. Bennett mentioned the one at Harrisburg that would make a good example. Here at the shipyard,when we do repair and restoration work we measure and make molds (templates) of what is still there or has slightly damaged. Almost the same thing. They make working plans from this if builders drawings don't exist. It would be ideal if you could find one (N-6) off its trucks on its side,but then i think that only happened years ago when so many were scrapped. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:09:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N-6b In a message dated 1/29/01 6:01:14 PM Central Standard Time, v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes: << How about visiting the one in Harrisburg at the station. >> There is a very well-kept one in a park in Terre Haute, Indiana. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:13:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N-6b In a message dated 1/29/01 7:38:31 PM Central Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << I think Model Powers guessed as the roof is too long >> Isn't the ladder and roofwalk extension on the wrong side as well? I seem to recall those Mantua/Tyco quasi-N8's we have all used for kitbashes have the same problem, but I don't have mine readily at hand right now (in my "sell at swap meet" boxes). Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:11:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Loading a TrucTrain From: Jerry Britton On 1/29/01 11:14 PM, GPandelios@aol.com at (GPandelios@aol.com) wrote: > I have a question. From my vantage point along the Rutherford intermodal > yard west of Harrisburg, PA, I can watch the 2 large, yellow MI-JACK devices > load and unload trailers. My question to you is: > > How was this done in the 50's for the TrucTrain? Were cranes used? Did > trucks drive up long ramps alongside the flatcars and parallel park (;^)? > Can anyone post a picture or point me to a website or book? > They had ramps at the ends of the tracks and had mini-tractors that pushed them up the ramps onto the trains. They were then pushed down several cars until they got to the end of the "available" cars, then repeated with the next unit. The trailers were then "tied down" to the cars with chains. The original cars were modified F-30's. The trailers were 26'. The service was introduced in June 1954. At that time, Harrisburg was not yet a stop. A contest was held among PRR employees to name the new service. The winner, "TrucTrain", was announced in the December 1954 issue of "The Pennsy". I have a booklet introducing the new service, as well as all of the 1954 issues of "The Pennsy" which provides substantial coverage. All of these documents will be available in Acrobat PDF format on CD-ROM #4 from "Keystone Crossings", slated for release late in 2001. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Loading a TrucTrain Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:48:33 -0500 The Lancaster ramps are still intake. You can see them under the big billboard at the Dillerville engine terminal. I thought I had a picture of them, but can't find it. Organization skills need to be tuned up a bit! Cos SPFs, I have a question. From my vantage point along the Rutherford intermodal yard west of Harrisburg, PA, I can watch the 2 large, yellow MI-JACK devices load and unload trailers. My question to you is: How was this done in the 50's for the TrucTrain? Were cranes used? Did trucks drive up long ramps alongside the flatcars and parallel park (;^)? Can anyone post a picture or point me to a website or book? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:53:11 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] N 6b If you all recall, we had this discussion back in January of 00. I corresponded with the folks at Laserkit/AMB and the end result was that they needed a couple of things before they could proceed. Namely: 1. Enough good drawing to produce the kit including the underframe as mentioned recently. PRRT&HS has most of what is needed. 2. Time and skill --or money-- to convert the drawings to CAD to be fed to the CNC lasers. AMB will do this for a fee from the drawings in #1. 3. More money to underwrite a run of kits. per an e-mail last year: "Regarding custom kits, there are two ways to proceed. First, an individual may pay for all of the R&D work and own the rights to produce the kit; or we will design a kit and give an individual exclusive rights to sell the kits for a period of time if he/she orders a preset minimum of that kit. For a caboose kit, the minimum is 200 kits with exclusive rights to sell the kit for one year. After the year is up, we will then catalog the kit." The final word from AMB was that they will EVENTUALLY do a N6b but their in house backlog is such that it will be a while. We can speed this up by taking it on a project particularly if we fine some on to convert the drawing to CAD since AMB has limited CAD drafting time available for these outside projects. Any thoughts or volunteers?? Jim McDaniel, lsot down in Delmarva, and looking for a few N6b cabins circa 1953. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] A Review---Accurail Scale Coupler Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:52:01 -0600 Fellow modelers, Just installed a few pair of Accurail's new scale couplers and would like to share my first impressions with the list if I may (You may hit the DELETE key now if you so desire). I will save the "compared to the Kadee #58" until the end of the review. At first glance the coupler itself looks like a scaled down (scale sized) version of the Accumate coupler and this holds true for the closer "look-see". The level of detail on the coupler itself however is just fine for the layout. Now looking at the coupler box provided for this coupler I'm happy to say "delightfully detailed" and Just slightly wider than the prototype (MM USRA boxcar drawings) but not noticeably so. I assembled a coupler into the coupler pocket and compared the assembly to the drawing. Correct distance from the box to the rear of the coupler (in other words the correct length of coupler shank is exposed), very nice. Now it was time to mount some of these to some rollingstock. I wanted to make this as easy as I could on myself (read as I could use the room on this shelf) so I picked out some Bowser PRR X-31 boxcars to be the guinea pigs. I took and removed the existing molded on coupler box and center sill all the way back to the bolster and filed the area down to get the correct thickness / coupler box mounting height. Next I spotted off the screw locations and drilled two .046 diameter holes. The screws easily self threaded the plastic of the cars' floor when attaching the coupler /draftgear assembly. next I trimmed the remaining part of the Bowser coupler box to match the width of the Accurail draftgear. It took about 15 minutes to mount these couplers to the SECOND boxcar. Finished the assembly of these cars and added a "puff" of powdered graphite to the "workings" of each coupler. Finished car side view, nice. End view nicer, MUCH nicer. A near scale width draftgear with a scale size coupler. A very pleasant change from the huge slot on the end of a car I've been seeing all these years. IMHO it was well worth the effort to remove the existing coupler box for the installation of the Accumate scale coupler. I'm looking at it this way, it took a few minutes more to install the scale draftgear on the car but the car will be viewed on the layout for years. However, I can see that change over to scale size couplers on built-up cars will be handled on a case by case basis. It might be fairly simple to move the pivot pin in the standard coupler box back a bit and use the Kadee #58. The deciding factor will be how much handling can a given car take. To test the coupler "swing" I made a "S" curve from a couple of Atlas 18" radius curves. The pair of 40' cars used about all the swing they had, but passed this test. I do have to saw I do this test as a worst case kind of test and that a #4 crossover will be a walk in the park. The Scale Accumates couple to each other with much less force than there larger cousins. This is a nice feature as most recent trucks are so free rolling. they also coupled very nicely with the standard Accumates, regular Kadee's and the Kadee #58's. The other "Kadee Clones" were not tested. The next test was to couple two cars equipped with the Scale Accumates and see how they looked. Well, without and hard data to support me, I'll just say the distance between the cars "looks right". I also went and measured the "slack" (pushed the cars together, measure, pull apart, measure, the difference is the amount of "slack"). I got about .040 or 3 1/2 " in HO and I believe this is about right (please correct me on this if I'm too out of line). The Kadee # 58 equipped cars had about .120 or 10" scale inches of slack and the cars coupled about a scale foot further apart. Here are a list of features with a rating for the Accumate and the Kadee "scale coupler". Rating system, 0 = worst, 10 = best. Feature Accurail Kadee Scale Size-Coupler 9 9 Level of Detail-Coupler 6 9 Scale Size-Draftgear 10 2 Level of Detail- Draftgear 10 2 Ease of Assembly / Installation 3 10 Appearance-Side View 9 8 Appearance-End View 10 8 Appearance- Top View 10 7 Appearance-Side View Coupled 10 7 Force Required to Couple (less scored better) 9 10 Magnetic uncoupling optional standard As you can see I was very impressed with the "in a train" appearance and car spacing of the Accurail coupler and the end view was a real treat. Peter Reinhold Paint Plus Trains 375 Fourth Street Prairie Du Sac, WI. 53578 NMRA L4415 PRRT&HS #5518 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Loading a TrucTrain Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:41:39 -0500 George & list, Back in the time before the large yellow loaders were invented, trailers were loaded circus-wagon style. The cars were spotted at the end of an end ramp. The tread plates were lowered between each car and then each trailer was backed down the row of cars by a tractor (read truck, as in 18-wheeler tractor). the tractor then ran forward along the line of cars, off the ramp, and the next trailer was backed down. The proceedure was repeated until the entire train was loaded. At the destination end of the trip, the process was repeated in reverse. This was a very complicated and hectic operation, as speed was critical. In later years cranes with slings were utilized, as were forklift type loaders which eventually evolved into the traveling loader common today. Hope this helps. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: GPandelios@aol.com [mailto:GPandelios@aol.com] Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 11:15 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Loading a TrucTrain SPFs, I have a question. From my vantage point along the Rutherford intermodal yard west of Harrisburg, PA, I can watch the 2 large, yellow MI-JACK devices load and unload trailers. My question to you is: How was this done in the 50's for the TrucTrain? Were cranes used? Did trucks drive up long ramps alongside the flatcars and parallel park (;^)? Can anyone post a picture or point me to a website or book? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:56:09 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: N6b Drawings >Gene Deimling wrote: >You will find a listing in the Fall 2000 issue of available drawings and >the charges. I am at work and don't have access to the information. I >believe the drawing charge was around $6.00 or $8.00 for a rather large >drawing. OK, so I'm a little confused by this form! I need some HELP. I looked over it and sure 'nough, there are some drawings I want, but they have no "letter code" to allow me to figure out the price. Does this mean I can't order them? If thats the case, then why are they on the list for ordering? If they are available, how do I price them? Any help would be appreciated! BTW, a DETAILED underbody drawing of the N5 appeared in the Keystone about 3 years ago (I think it was in the issue on N5 messenger service cars). I need DETAILED underbody drawings of the N6b, N4, NDA, ND...any of y'all have 'em? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Clickety-clack (a proposal) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:56:06 -0800 From: "John Cooper" You could count the number of flat wheel spots in 4 seconds or so. > ---------- > From: robert netzlof[SMTP:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 9:32 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Clickety-clack (a proposal) > > --- bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > But the harder question is, what is the formula for welded rail? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:12:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Chapter NRHS Web Site From: Jerry Britton The web site of the Harrisburg Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society (NRHS) is now served via PENNSYRR.COM. This change occurred about two weeks ago. Mark Bej continues as the webmaster. The new URL is http://nrhs-hbg.pennsyrr.com Would those of you with bookmarks or web site links please update them. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:20:45 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N 6b Jim, I'm writing a definitive history of the N6 class. I was asked to contact LaserKit with information on six design variations including the "wall-eyed windows" and radically offset cupolas and as many as seven lettering schemes including 1940-54 gray MOW and post 1954 Yellow MOW. Do you have contact info on Laserkit? What I need to finish my article is numbering information. Were cabins llisted in the ORER? To answer Hank's questions about the underframe, Greg Martin, a structural engineer, can give you an extremely detailed explanation of why the N6 is five feet shorter than the N5. The short version is steel is stronger than wood. Both classes were placed in service in 1914. I've got a buddy who's a professional mechannical artist and a nascent railfan. He's agreeable to heading out to Terre Haute or Logansport to measure and photograph at least one N6 underframe. Hope to do it after the weather breaks. Tom V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:13:09 -0500 From: ours Subject: Re: [PRR] Loading a TrucTrain You can find a picture of the ramps used on page 122 bottom in PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Volume 2. This picture shows the drop panel that would line up with otherside of the car to facilitate loading and unloading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] G26 & G26a Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:23:18 -0500 Hi All, Does anyone know if the G26 & G26a had an all steel interior or if there was a wood floor? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Loading a TrucTrain Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:35:04 -0500 Jerry Britton wrote... >> >They had ramps at the ends of the tracks and had mini-tractors that pushed >them up the ramps onto the trains. They were then pushed down several cars >until they got to the end of the "available" cars, then repeated with the >next unit. > The method Jerry described is often referred to as "circus-style" loading because it is the way circus wagons were first loaded. You can still see one of these end-loading ramps at Island Ave. Yard in Pittsburgh, just off PA Rt. 65 immediately north of Downtown Pittsburgh. W. Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:10:28 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Loading a TrucTrain From: "William J. Ayers" George, PRR did several promotional films in the late 40's and 50's. One of them is "Opening a New Frontier". It chronicles how the new (at the time) TrucTrain works and you follow a truck from Chicago to New York. Good footage of loading and unloading the trailers. It is on the video "Pennsylvania Collection, Four Vintage Pennsylvania Railroad Documentaries", distributed by Interurban Videos of Glendale, CA. Bill Ayers > SPFs, > > I have a question. From my vantage point along the Rutherford intermodal > yard west of Harrisburg, PA, I can watch the 2 large, yellow MI-JACK devices > load and unload trailers. My question to you is: > > How was this done in the 50's for the TrucTrain? Were cranes used? Did > trucks drive up long ramps alongside the flatcars and parallel park (;^)? > Can anyone post a picture or point me to a website or book? > > Thanks, > > George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:23:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] G26 & G26a Hi All, Does anyone know if the G26 & G26a had an all steel interior or if there was a wood floor? Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/586931/_/980910860/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:56:56 +0100 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Loading TrucTrains Yes, "Opening a New Frontier" is a really good movie. It lasts about 13 minutes and has some great footage. Video Rails also has a release. There phone number is 1-800-262-2776. I picked a copy up at a local train show for $14.00. Ken Meyer, Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:53:51 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] G26 & G26a Bill, The class diagrams for the G26 and G26a show the cars as having steel floors. You can check out the diagrams on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=g26.gif http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=g26a.gif For what it's worth, the Eastern Car works HO scale kit also has a steel floor. Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@snip.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 7:23 PM To: PRR Talk; PRR Fax Subject: [PRR-FAX] G26 & G26a Hi All, Does anyone know if the G26 & G26a had an all steel interior or if there was a wood floor? Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/586931/_/980910860/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Deimling" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: N6b Drawings Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:47:38 -0800 The drawing in question for the N6b is C-077064. The "C" is the drawing size. It is $6.00 for a copy and two more if you want it shipped in a tube. Gene Deimling -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 6:56 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: N6b Drawings >Gene Deimling wrote: >You will find a listing in the Fall 2000 issue of available drawings and >the charges. I am at work and don't have access to the information. I >believe the drawing charge was around $6.00 or $8.00 for a rather large >drawing. OK, so I'm a little confused by this form! I need some HELP. I looked over it and sure 'nough, there are some drawings I want, but they have no "letter code" to allow me to figure out the price. Does this mean I can't order them? If thats the case, then why are they on the list for ordering? If they are available, how do I price them? Any help would be appreciated! BTW, a DETAILED underbody drawing of the N5 appeared in the Keystone about 3 years ago (I think it was in the issue on N5 messenger service cars). I need DETAILED underbody drawings of the N6b, N4, NDA, ND...any of y'all have 'em? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: [PRR] Streamliners Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 06:29:11 -0500 The American Experience on PBS will air Steamliners on the first Sunday or Monday (check locally) of February. Even though it will feature two famous streamliners of other roads, there will be a focus on the Chicago Century of Progress World's Fair in 1933-34 (may see some great PRR motive power) and a segment on Amtrak. Visit http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/streamliners/index.html for more information. DF Cramer _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:24:41 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamliners The site contains excerpts from a 1936 National Geographic article found at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/streamliners/filmmore/ps.html It provides some description of various streamliners , including several paragraphs on the Congressional. It enumerates all the money the PRR spent on the NE corridor and tells how the growth of the USA was, and still is, so dependent on the RRs. It wraps up by saying what a wonderful future the RRs have in both freight and passengers business :-( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== dfc PRR 7002 wrote: > > The American Experience on PBS will air Steamliners on the first Sunday or > Monday (check locally) of February. Even though it will feature two famous > streamliners of other roads, there will be a focus on the Chicago Century of > Progress World's Fair in 1933-34 (may see some great PRR motive power) and a > segment on Amtrak. > > Visit http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/streamliners/index.html > > for more information. > > DF Cramer > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: Rob Schoenberg From: Rob Schoenberg Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:53:51 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] G26 & G26a Bill, The class diagrams for the G26 and G26a show the cars as having steel floors. You can check out the diagrams on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=g26.gif http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=g26a.gif For what it's worth, the Eastern Car works HO scale kit also has a steel floor. Rob http://prr.railfan.net On Tuesday, January 30, 2001, Bill Lane wrote: Hi All, Does anyone know if the G26 & G26a had an all steel interior or if there was a wood floor? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/586931/_/980954773/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 23:18:36 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards (someone let me know if this gets thru the newyahooo) billd@gci-net.com wrote: > Actually a smashboard is designed to give undeniable proof > that an engineer ran a stop signal. Kinda hard to claim you > didn't see it when it's busted up. In actuallity it of > course couldn't stop a train, and it wasn't intended to. Just so. This is well covered in oldish (ca 1900) books on RR signalling. Different approach (somewhat) to 'discipline' than currently employed. Used to be smashboards in Boston, where the Union Freight crossed some waterways, gone now. It would make an interesting list to see how many are left. There are two (at least) functional 'near' NYC. Where? Trickier: Right near them are the remains, derelict, of two more. Where? (just the motors remain, but from where they are, its obvious what they were...) If anyone is going to the Amherst (Springfield) MA show this weekend, I will be at the Assabet MIlls RR Club layout, unless I'm shopping. Large, glasses, beard.... best dave p ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!