From: "Jeff Knorek" <jknorek@mail.msen.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Bayard Branch Question

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:44:39 -0500



Al-

I emailed you a reply personally, but the email bounced I'll

say it out here on the group:



THANK YOU very much for your reply.



Jeff Knorek



> The Bayard Branch was built by the C&P in sections  <snip>





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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:14:43 -0500

From: Park Varieties <parkvarieties@provide.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender painting



Challenger Imports, who are also known for accurate steam engine painting,

painted the trainphone appliances black on their recently released M-1's

along with the oxide red tender deck and  coal bunker interior.



Frank Brua



Gary Mittner wrote:



> Kris,

>

>      Again, no color shots to proove the color but the assumption is

> they are painted Black, not Red/Orange or DGLE. According to 1929

> painting instructions all piping and I believe all appliances were

> painted Black. Antenna sytems probably came in later and most likely

> fell into the same instructions.

>       On Brass Models imported by Key, which is one of the best

> finishers on the market, they paint the mast and antenna Black.

> They, (Key), also paints the interrior of the coal bin red/orange too. I

> just  can't seem to get myself to do that extra detail. So I paint my

> tender bunkers DGLE. Hope this helps in some way.....Gary

>

>

> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

> Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

> ..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

> and......

> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA

>

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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:54:09 -0500

From: Dennis Rockwell <dennis@bbn.com>

Subject: [PRR] Re: K2's and back-dating (longish) [PRR]





george.pierson@trnty.edu wrote on 00/11/29 8:26 pm:



> [ ... ] When I add it all up, I think it will be a fun change. Already I 

>really get a  kick out of watching all those vertical 

>brakewheels rolling along. [ ... ]



Don't forget the occasional rooftop brakeman!



Thanks for the reasoning.



Dennis



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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 09:44:05 -0500

From: Drew McGhee <drm6@psu.edu>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Which Region Were These Divisions In?



Jerry and the group,



Here's some info I dug up last night from my ETT collection.



4/26/31 TT # 12 

Eastern Region 

Central Pennsylvania Division

Williamsport Division



4/30/50 TT # 9

Central Region

Northern

Buffalo Division



4/29/51 (Forgot to mark down TT #)

Central Region

Northern Division



9/30/51TT #1

Eastern Region

Susquehanna Division



9/28/52 TT #2

Eastern Region 

Susquehanna Division



9/27/53 TT #3

Eastern Region

Susquehanna Division



9/26/54 TT #4

Eastern Region

Susquehanna Division



10/30/55 TT #5

Northern Region 

Susquehanna District



4/24/55 TT #7

Central Region

Northern Division



Hope this helps.



Drew R. McGhee

Altoona, PA

drm6@psu.edu

http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/

 



At 10:06 PM 11/29/2000 -0500, Jerry Britton wrote:

>Folks, I am working on a quick little project that will benefit many: a

>"family tree" graphic which illustrates the divisional/regional structure of

>the PRR from 1941 through 1968.

>

>The first segment, 1941-1951 is clear, as is the fourth, 1956-1964, and the

>fifth, 1964-1968. I need some help on the second and third, which cover

>1951-1955.

>

>I have the division lists for these periods. However, each "operating

>division" (1951-1954) or "operating district" (1955) was a member of a

>region. There are six divisions that I am unsure of which region they

>belonged to.

>

>If anyone has an ETT for any of the following divisions, dated between 1951

>and 1955, please check the cover. The region will be named directly above

>the division/district name.

>

>Here are the divisions in question:

>

>* Susquehanna      (will be either Eastern or Central)

>* Northern         (will be either Eastern or Central)

>* Lake             (I fully expect this to be Central)

>* Panhandle        (will be either Central or Western)

>* Cincinatti       (I fully expect this to be Western)

>* Southwestern     (I fully expect this to be Western)

>

>PLEASE, no conjecture or assumptions. I need a response from someone with

>the appropriate employee timetable in hand!

>

>Many thanks!

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS





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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:44:44 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>

Subject: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666



Hi all,



I managed to pick up an HO scale PRR doodlebug, #4666, (NJ Custom Brass) on

ebay a month or so ago, and I have since come up with a few questions!

Some searching last night turned up the fact that this car may have

operated out of Baltimore (a photo in Ball's PRR 40's and 50's book).  From

the NJI Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo

Book, this car is class GEG 415, built by Brill.  Other members of the

class were #s 4667-4670.  As classified these were gas-electrics, with GE

electrical gear and rated at 415 hp, a relatively high hp rating for a

doodlebug, indicating that they may have been intended to pull a trailer

(confirmed by photos of #4666)  The drawing lists them as "adapted 1930" -

is this supposed to be "adopted"?  These cars are somewhat unusual looking

as the round roof section stops abruptly  a foot or so before the end of

the car with the remaining roof being flat and even with the top of the

carbody.  Thus both ends have a chopped look to them!



What were the service dates on these cars (built, modified, scrapped)?

Were they ever converted to oil? (and if so, when?)

Where were they assigned?



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

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From: "Rob Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:37:16 -0500



They were definitly converted to oil as the diagrams on my site lists the

4666

as OEG415 with a Hamilton 6 cylinder enginer w/ 425 horsepower.



elevation:

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=oeg415.gif&sel=gaselec

tric



floorplan:

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=oeg415_fp.gif&sel=gase

lectric



The quality of the diagrams isn't the greatest but...



Rob





> -----Original Message-----

> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F.

> Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 1:45 PM

> To: prr-talk@dsop.com

> Subject: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I managed to pick up an HO scale PRR doodlebug, #4666, (NJ Custom

> Brass) on

> ebay a month or so ago, and I have since come up with a few questions!

> Some searching last night turned up the fact that this car may have

> operated out of Baltimore (a photo in Ball's PRR 40's and 50's

> book).  From

> the NJI Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo

> Book, this car is class GEG 415, built by Brill.  Other members of the

> class were #s 4667-4670.  As classified these were gas-electrics, with GE

> electrical gear and rated at 415 hp, a relatively high hp rating for a

> doodlebug, indicating that they may have been intended to pull a trailer

> (confirmed by photos of #4666)  The drawing lists them as "adapted 1930" -

> is this supposed to be "adopted"?  These cars are somewhat unusual looking

> as the round roof section stops abruptly  a foot or so before the end of

> the car with the remaining roof being flat and even with the top of the

> carbody.  Thus both ends have a chopped look to them!

>

> What were the service dates on these cars (built, modified, scrapped)?

> Were they ever converted to oil? (and if so, when?)

> Where were they assigned?

>

> Happy Rails

> Bruce

>

> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

> Scott-Ritchey Research Center

> 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

>

> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" -

> Benjamin Franklin

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From: "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:21:03 -0500 





Bruce and the gang:



>From the photos that I have seen, this class of Doodlebug seemed to be only

assigned in the east coast. Other doodlebugs such as the Brill 250's and

350's seemed to be assigned system wide especially in the midwest.



BTW, has anyone heard if these types of doodlebugs (by Brill) are going to

be produced in plastic? I have heard rumors that Walthers will produce a

doodlebug in addition to their Sperry Railcar. I hope that it is the Brill

350 since (IMHO) is one of the most aesthetic doodlebugs produced. 





Has anyone heard anything?





Ted Andrews

Carmel, Indiana 

-----Original Message-----

From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 1:45 PM

To: prr-talk@dsop.com

Subject: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666





Hi all,



I managed to pick up an HO scale PRR doodlebug, #4666, (NJ Custom Brass) on

ebay a month or so ago, and I have since come up with a few questions!

Some searching last night turned up the fact that this car may have

operated out of Baltimore (a photo in Ball's PRR 40's and 50's book).  From

the NJI Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo

Book, this car is class GEG 415, built by Brill.  Other members of the

class were #s 4667-4670.  As classified these were gas-electrics, with GE

electrical gear and rated at 415 hp, a relatively high hp rating for a

doodlebug, indicating that they may have been intended to pull a trailer

(confirmed by photos of #4666)  The drawing lists them as "adapted 1930" -

is this supposed to be "adopted"?  These cars are somewhat unusual looking

as the round roof section stops abruptly  a foot or so before the end of

the car with the remaining roof being flat and even with the top of the

carbody.  Thus both ends have a chopped look to them!



What were the service dates on these cars (built, modified, scrapped)?

Were they ever converted to oil? (and if so, when?)

Where were they assigned?



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin

Franklin

                           __

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From: Bobspf@aol.com

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:33:41 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666



In a message dated 12/1/00 4:19:50 PM Central Standard Time, 

Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes:



<< I hope that it is the Brill

 350 since (IMHO) is one of the most aesthetic doodlebugs produced.  >>



Agree.  And at least it is doubleended.  Once again, Bachmann's choices of 

prototypes, such as the single-ended gas-electric, baffle me. Guess it 

doesn't make a difference if you are just running around a Christmas tree.



Bob Zoeller



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From: "Kris Kollar" <kkollar@cplx.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender painting

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:57:59 -0500



Call me crazy but this is what I did.  First determine which lines of rivets

need to be removed.  Next use short strips of cellophane tape.  I used the

cheapo high gloss kind since it is easier to see through.  Lay the strip of

tape parallel over the rivets to be removed...  Only about 1/16'' of tape

should hang over one side of the row of rivets.  The edge of the tape that

hangs over the 1/16" must not be pressed or burnished down onto the surface

of the tender, the other side can be pressed down onto the tender side.

Next get a brand new chisel blade , slide it under the edge of tape that is

raised off the tender side and carefully and closely shave off the rivet

head.  The tape should catch every rivet head.  Take care to get as much of

rivet off as possible.  Two reasons,  1- less sanding to remove any trace of

the old rivet pattern and 2- you're saving them to reapply at a later date.

Repeat -- reapply the old rivet heads at a later date.



Once you've removed all the necessary rivets, use a sharp pencil and a

straight edge to draw the new patterns onto the side of the tender.  Use

mechanical dividers and use the existing rivets to determine the proper

spacing for the soon to be applied rivet heads.  Use the sharp, needle like

mechanical divider points to mark the locations for the new heads.  Use a

brand new #11 blade, carefully pick the old rivets heads off the tape and

glue each one in place with liquid cement using a very fine paint brush to

control the glue.



I did this over about a ten day period but I did it 15 - 30 minute blocks.

All totaled it was about 2 evenings work.



I'm satisfied with the results.  I hope to show off this work in a new

article I hope to publish in Mainline Modeler



Kris





----- Original Message -----

From: <Prr1187@aol.com>

To: <kkollar@cplx.net>

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:19 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender painting





> Please advise how you changed the rivet pattern.

>

> I guess that you shaved off the ones you don't want,

> but how did you add rivets?

>

> Thank you,

> Dennis





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From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:58:22 -0500



#4666, operated out of Baltimore as the Parkton Local, to Parkton, Maryland.

Sometimes it would run to New Freedom and turn on the "Y", but these were

rare.  Most times it pulled a p-70 coach.  It has been restored and operates

on the Black River & Western RR.  It is a great ride in a Bug.





Bill  Knepper

PRRT&HS # 1818

(boxcar46@nfdc.net)

End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.



-----Original Message-----

From: Andrews, Ted <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>

To: 'Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.' <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>;

prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Date: Friday, December 01, 2000 5:12 PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666





>

>Bruce and the gang:

>

>>From the photos that I have seen, this class of Doodlebug seemed to be

only

>assigned in the east coast. Other doodlebugs such as the Brill 250's and

>350's seemed to be assigned system wide especially in the midwest.

>

>BTW, has anyone heard if these types of doodlebugs (by Brill) are going to

>be produced in plastic? I have heard rumors that Walthers will produce a

>doodlebug in addition to their Sperry Railcar. I hope that it is the Brill

>350 since (IMHO) is one of the most aesthetic doodlebugs produced.

>

>

>Has anyone heard anything?

>

>

>Ted Andrews

>Carmel, Indiana

>-----Original Message-----

>From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]

>Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 1:45 PM

>To: prr-talk@dsop.com

>Subject: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666

>

>

>Hi all,

>

>I managed to pick up an HO scale PRR doodlebug, #4666, (NJ Custom Brass) on

>ebay a month or so ago, and I have since come up with a few questions!

>Some searching last night turned up the fact that this car may have

>operated out of Baltimore (a photo in Ball's PRR 40's and 50's book).  From

>the NJI Pennsylvania RR Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo

>Book, this car is class GEG 415, built by Brill.  Other members of the

>class were #s 4667-4670.  As classified these were gas-electrics, with GE

>electrical gear and rated at 415 hp, a relatively high hp rating for a

>doodlebug, indicating that they may have been intended to pull a trailer

>(confirmed by photos of #4666)  The drawing lists them as "adapted 1930" -

>is this supposed to be "adopted"?  These cars are somewhat unusual looking

>as the round roof section stops abruptly  a foot or so before the end of

>the car with the remaining roof being flat and even with the top of the

>carbody.  Thus both ends have a chopped look to them!

>

>What were the service dates on these cars (built, modified, scrapped)?

>Were they ever converted to oil? (and if so, when?)

>Where were they assigned?

>

>Happy Rails

>Bruce

>

>Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

>Scott-Ritchey Research Center

>334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

>http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

>

>"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin

>Franklin

>                           __

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>

>

>

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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: [PRR] PRR doodlebugs

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:34:11 -0500



List:



"Steel Rails to the Sunrise" has a photograph of PRR 4744 in use on the

LIRR, which seems smaller than the 250's on Ron's list of equipment

diagrams. Does anyone know what type it is and if there are any better

photo's and diagrams of this car?



Gregg Mahlkov





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From: "Claus Schlund" <schlund@cwnet.com>

Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 19:41:28 -0800

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR K2s class



Hi Doug,



Doug wrote:



> I'm sure you know about the N&W E-3 article series in

> Model Railroading Magazine; check the Model Train

> Magazine Index link on Model Railroader's home page

> (www.modelrailroader.com)for exact dates.  I bought

> the series back issues.  Basically it involves taking

> a Bachmann K4s, shortening the firebox, and changing

> the cab to a 4 window cab.  



I've been toying with the idea of doing a K2 or K3 in N scale

for some years now, and the notion of starting with

a K4 shell (available in N as well as HO) is a logical

one. However, the K4 had a tapered boiler (fat in

the middle, narrowing out toward the smokebox) and the

K2/K3 class had a totally straight boiler. This would

be quite a noticable discrepancy in both scales.

My feeling is that a new boiler, possibly a length of brass

or plastic tubing, would be in order.



  -  Claus





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From: RDG2124@aol.com

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 01:38:36 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] GEG 415 #4666



Ted,



  Have heard nothing about a plastice Brill from anyone. 



  As for the Sperry car,  CDS Lettering Ltd. makes a Sperry set for those 

wanting to customize the Walthers car.



Evan



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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 07:28:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoffrey Van Dooren <geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Ho scale models of GG1

Can someone tell me who makes plastic dummys DGLE with
5 stripes?
Geoffrey

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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 15:22:47 -0500

From: John W Rosenbauer <jlrosen@wpa.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Ho scale models of GG1



Don't know where you live but here in the Pittsburgh area the

Shop-N-Save grocery store are selling an IHC HO set that includes a 5

stripe Tuscan GG-1 with a pair of boxcars(toss em) and a non-PRR

cabin(toss it) for $49.95. 

I suspect the G is not a Premier version but it looks good. 



J.W.Rosenbauer



Geoffrey Van Dooren wrote:

> 

> Can someone tell me who makes plastic dummys DGLE with

> 5 stripes?

> Geoffrey



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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 19:09:18 -0400

From: prrbill <prrbill@Op.Net>

Subject: [PRR] Phila. Chapter Officers elected



At today's PRRT&HS Philadelphia Chapter meeting, the membership elected

unopposed the following officers:



President:              Al Gianntonnio

Vice President:      Joe Butler

Board Secretary:   Dan Diaddezio

Treasurer:             Charlie Horan



The Philadelphia Chapter would like to extend its sincere thanks and

gratitude to retiring President Frank Tatnall and retiring Vice

President Phil Ritter for their generous and unselfish service over the

years.  Also, Fred Monsimer has agreed to continue as our recording secretary.



Bill Morlitz, 

Website Superintendent



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From: "Gene Deimling" <endeimling@mindspring.com>

Subject: [PRR] Keystone Crossings?

Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 18:13:16 -0800



Did I miss something this week?   What happen to normal format at Keystone

Crossings?  What is this "Virtual Pennsy" stuff?

Gene Deimling





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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:05:34 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender painting



Kris, list,



One minor point of correction; Bachmann's tender as it

comes is a 110P70.  I have also converted two of these

into more or less accurate replicas of 110P75a

tenders.



  As far as painting goes, I painted the antenna set

on my T-1 the tender body color (in my case, Polly

Scale's grimy black); pick your favorite shade of dark

green locomotive enamel.  I painted the deck and coal

bunker a reddish color (Testor's Model Master acrylic

rust), but painted all of the accessories, like

ladders and water hatches the tender body color.



As with your L1s article, I'm sure it will be great!



Doug







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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:11:47 -0800 (PST)

From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?



Dominic, list



PRR's steam fleet retained the s for superheating

until the end in 1957 (unlike CNJ, which dropped the s

circa 1944).  Most folks eliminate it as sort of

redundant, which it is; all K4s engines were

superheated.  What made it relevant was when older

saturated engines were upgraded with superheaters.



As an example, Fred Westing asserts in his book Pennsy

Steam and Semaphores that the E3d Atlantics were

considered sluggish because of the constant lead of

their piston valves (vs the variable lead of the slide

valved E3a class) until they were superheated, and

then they were considered the better engine.



Anyway, I'm trained as a historian (amongst other

things), and I try to be as precise as I can.  At the

same time, the s is just a letter, and when all of the

engines in a class were superheated, it's probably not

relevant.



Doug







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From: NDBPRR@aol.com

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 00:37:03 EST

Subject: [PRR] GG1 #4800





--part1_a3.ec56962.275b35ff_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Pictures show an external roof mounted cable connecting the pantographs on 

#4800.  Was this moved internally on subsequent G's or eliminated?



--part1_a3.ec56962.275b35ff_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Pictures show an external roof mounted cable connecting the pantographs on <BR>#4800. &nbsp;Was this moved internally on subsequent G's or eliminated?</FONT></HTML>



--part1_a3.ec56962.275b35ff_boundary--



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Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 02:28:57 -0800 (PST)

From: Geoffrey Van Dooren <geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com>

Subject: [PRR] 1954 Layout



Bruce, after reading your mail I started thinking. 

See, I live in Belgium (Europe) where american

railroad books and models are hard to find.  But my

local modelstore is slowly starting with this after I

convinced them that its a potential great market. 

They only have the Walthers catalog to choose from but

not al manufactures are included. Is there another

combined catalog? (Bethlehem, Model Memories,...)

So for now I don't have many books on the Pennsy -also

because I got interesteded in the PRR a big year ago-

therefore I choosed Lancaster, not knowing that this

was so extensiveness.

See, I want a 1954 layout with 2 electrified tracks, a

small passenger station with a few (3 or 4) platforms,

a coach yard, a small yard with auxiliary tracks for

shops, MOW and some buildings, a few streets with

houses and all this in a rural and woody landscape 

using steam, diesel and electrified locomotives.

So it will become a fictious layout with a lot of

combinations from various places.  Maybe this is even

more intresting than modelling only one location

because now I have the possibility to combine several

different Pennsy scenes.

The only problem is that I don't know how to start

with this.  I know how a big yard looks like, but a

small yard or a coach yard and al the buildings

surrounding them? Never seen on a photo.  Do you know

some sites were I can find this specific information

or some helpfull books?  If you have suggestions or

tips, they are always welcome.

Thanks,Geoffrey



Is there someone else on this list, that lives in

Europe?  Contact me off list.    



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From: "gregory" <gas@fastinet.net>

Subject: [PRR] Moving

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 07:15:52 -0800



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05CF8.DEFF6C20

Content-Type: text/plain;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



I am going to relocate back to Pennsylvania from california. I will be =

living in brookville, near dubois. Anyone on the list live near this =

area or know of a model railroading shop around this area?

--Greg



------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05CF8.DEFF6C20

Content-Type: text/html;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to relocate back to =

Pennsylvania from=20

california. I will be living in brookville, near dubois. Anyone on the =

list live=20

near this area or know of a model railroading shop around this=20

area?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--Greg</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C05CF8.DEFF6C20--





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From: Bisbeelaw@cs.com

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 11:34:33 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?



The "s" was in common usage by the PRR during the steam era. Shouldn't we be 

accurate and use it in referring to locomotives which were so designated by 

the railroad we follow?



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From: "Jerry Shickler" <geshick@velocity.net>

Subject: Fw: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 11:27:34 -0500





Jerry Shickler

Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:

http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm



----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Shickler <geshick@velocity.net>

To: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 11:58 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?





> I believe that if the class existed before superheating was introduced,

the

> 's' was used to indicate superheating.  Classes which were introduced

after

> superheating became standard (was it something like 1923?) did not use the

> 's'.

> __

> Jerry Shickler

> Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:

> http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Doug Kisala <dougkisala@yahoo.com>

> To: <PRR@egroups.com>; PRR talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>

> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 10:11 PM

> Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?

>

>

> > Dominic, list

> >

> > PRR's steam fleet retained the s for superheating

> > until the end in 1957 (unlike CNJ, which dropped the s

> > circa 1944).  Most folks eliminate it as sort of

> > redundant, which it is; all K4s engines were

> > superheated.  What made it relevant was when older

> > saturated engines were upgraded with superheaters.

> >

> > As an example, Fred Westing asserts in his book Pennsy

> > Steam and Semaphores that the E3d Atlantics were

> > considered sluggish because of the constant lead of

> > their piston valves (vs the variable lead of the slide

> > valved E3a class) until they were superheated, and

> > then they were considered the better engine.

> >

> > Anyway, I'm trained as a historian (amongst other

> > things), and I try to be as precise as I can.  At the

> > same time, the s is just a letter, and when all of the

> > engines in a class were superheated, it's probably not

> > relevant.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> > Do You Yahoo!?

> > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

> > http://shopping.yahoo.com/

> >

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>





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From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 10:21:00 -0700



As has been already noted the small "s" was used only before superheating

became standard equipment on steam locomotives, sometime around 1923. All

new classes of steamers, starting with class G5, dropped the "s" as

superfluous. however already existing classes retained the "s" on later

reorders (such as the 1928 order of K4s locomotives) in order to maintain

consistency within the class.



Bill Daniels

----- Original Message -----

From: <Bisbeelaw@cs.com>

To: <dougkisala@yahoo.com>; <PRR@egroups.com>; <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:34 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?





> The "s" was in common usage by the PRR during the steam era. Shouldn't we

be

> accurate and use it in referring to locomotives which were so designated

by

> the railroad we follow?

>

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From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@ntlworld.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] MP =steam, The "s" in K4s?

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:22:23 -0000



|Shouldn't we be accurate and use it in referring to locomotives which were

so designated by

|the railroad we follow?



Yerk... accuracy for it's own sake has little to commend it where the

meaning is otherwise clear- it rapidly descends into pedantry. Accuracy

where it is necessary to have one's meaning understood without confusion is

vital.



So once all the engines of a class are superheated it matters little whether

you add the 's' or not. But if there are saturated and superheated engines

which might be confused then please use the 's' to differentiate



Aidrian







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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:31:10 -0500 (EST)

Subject: [PRR] N6B Cabin



List,



    I was recently given a tracing (photocopy)  of a PRR N6b Cabin

Interrior diagram. I also have an O Scale N6b Cabin that I built years

ago with the intent on installing an interrior. I built the N6B as a

Center Cupola type. The tracing I have does not say which N6b this is

for, Center or Offset Cupola. The tracing number is E-73624. Looking at

the floor plan I still can not tell which this tracing is for. Is there

any info out there which will tell me exactly the N6b this tracing is

for? Thanks in advance...Gary 









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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From: "gregory" <gas@fastinet.net>

Subject: [PRR] n6b interior

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:39:33 -0800



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C05D3F.3C14E8E0

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	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



I believe if you follow the following it may help you determine which =

plan you have. The interior plans should show where the lockers and =

toilet were. The cupola seats are over these. If they are off center the =

cupola was off center.=20



--greg



------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C05D3F.3C14E8E0

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	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe if you follow the following =

it may help=20

you determine which plan you have. The interior plans should show where =

the=20

lockers and toilet were. The cupola seats are over these. If they are =

off center=20

the cupola was off center. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--greg</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>



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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Moving

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:59:01 -0500



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C05D63.7B62EC80

Content-Type: text/plain;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Sorry Greg:

Wrong side of the State Greg,  however you are about 2000 miles closer than

CA.

Cos

  -----Original Message-----

  From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of gregory

  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 10:16 AM

  To: PRR talk

  Subject: [PRR] Moving





  I am going to relocate back to Pennsylvania from california. I will be

living in brookville, near dubois. Anyone on the list live near this area or

know of a model railroading shop around this area?

  --Greg



------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C05D63.7B62EC80

Content-Type: text/html;

	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =

class=3D450565600-04122000>Sorry=20

Greg:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =

class=3D450565600-04122000>Wrong=20

side of the State Greg,  however you are about 2000 miles closer than=20

CA.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20

class=3D450565600-04122000>Cos</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE=20

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =

0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">

  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =

face=3DTahoma=20

  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20

  [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>gregory<BR><B>Sent:</B> =

Sunday,=20

  December 03, 2000 10:16 AM<BR><B>To:</B> PRR talk<BR><B>Subject:</B> =

[PRR]=20

  Moving<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>

  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am going to relocate back to =

Pennsylvania from=20

  california. I will be living in brookville, near dubois. Anyone on the =

list=20

  live near this area or know of a model railroading shop around this=20

  area?</FONT></DIV>

  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =

size=3D2>--Greg</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



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From: "Robert Schoenberg" <robs@internexus.net>

Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-Modeling] N6B Cabin

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 01:49:51 -0500



Hi all,



I don't have the answer but the diagram is on my site and might help someone

else

determine the answer...

http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=n6a_n6b-fp.gif&sel=cbn

&sz=sm



Also, I have a ton of these diagrams online (all types of PRR equipment) but

am missing

quite a few.  If you have any of these in your collection that I may not

have online,

please drop me a line!



Rob

http://prr.railfan.net

-----Original Message-----

From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 3:31 PM

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com

Subject: [PRR-Modeling] N6B Cabin





List,



    I was recently given a tracing (photocopy)  of a PRR N6b Cabin

Interrior diagram. I also have an O Scale N6b Cabin that I built years

ago with the intent on installing an interrior. I built the N6B as a

Center Cupola type. The tracing I have does not say which N6b this is

for, Center or Offset Cupola. The tracing number is E-73624. Looking at

the floor plan I still can not tell which this tracing is for. Is there

any info out there which will tell me exactly the N6b this tracing is

for? Thanks in advance...Gary









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:09:11 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>

Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 #4800



>Pictures show an external roof mounted cable connecting the pantographs on

>#4800.  Was this moved internally on subsequent G's or eliminated?



Well, I don't actually know but it certainly isn't there on the production

GG-1s!  But you've hit upon one of those little detail that "make" a model

of #4800 right (along wiht rivets of course <G>)



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



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From: PKMac1@aol.com

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:38:22 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale Tower Survey



Jerry. A little late but hope you consider these also.



JACKS ( 40s- 50's era )

ALTO ( 40's - 50's era )

KN-Kittanning Point ( the beautiful stone work )

WYE (40's -50's era)



Pat McKinney



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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:09:05 -0600

From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>

Subject: [PRR] GG-1s - Daddy's little girl



Hi All,



Speaking of GG-1s, my 2 1/2 year old daughter correctly identified one

yesterday without any prompting.  She wasn't feeling well so she asked to

curl up in my lap on the sofa and watch "train movies".  She picked one out

in "Pennsy's Racetrack" right away - That's daddy's little girl!!!!



Sorry, but I had to brag a little!



Happy Rails

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.

Scott-Ritchey Research Center

334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/



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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:09:39 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s - Daddy's little girl

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/4/00 10:09 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu)

wrote:



> Speaking of GG-1s, my 2 1/2 year old daughter correctly identified one

> yesterday without any prompting.  She wasn't feeling well so she asked to

> curl up in my lap on the sofa and watch "train movies".  She picked one out

> in "Pennsy's Racetrack" right away - That's daddy's little girl!!!!

> 

I've got the opposite problem...while Andrew (3) loves to watch my PRR

tapes, his "Grammy" gave him a tape called "There Goes A Train". It's good

for young kids, as it teaches them about the components of a train, the

different types of locos and cars, etc. Too bad it's all SF and western

roads.



Unfortunately, he watches it 2-3 times a day, driving my wife and I nuts. To

my wife's amazement, last night I suggested the title to its sequel: "There

Goes Another F*&%ing Train"!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:51:10 -0800 (PST)

From: Nevin Byers <nevin27@excite.com>

Subject: [PRR] New to List



Hello and Greetings,



My name is Nevin Byers and I've recently joined the PRR-Talk email list. I

joined because I have an intrest in the late great Pennsylvania Railroad. I

model the East Broad Top Railroad in HOn3. The East Broad Top Railroad

interchanged with the PRR in Mt. Union, PA

and I plan to model this scene.



I grown up with Conrail as a kid and when I got old enough to search it's

history. I was most intrested in it's succesor railroads especially the PRR

because of it's wide variety of motive power. The K-4 to the GG1.



Anyway, I just wanted to introduce myself. Happy Railroading!



Nevin Byers

The East Broad Top Homepage - http://www.trainweb.org/ebtrr











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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 17:05:37 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Results of the N-Scale Tower Survey

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On a vendor's behalf, I surveyed the above two lists for each N scale

reader's "Top Four Towers" as candidates for a run of commercial models.

There were 16 responses as follows:



(6) ALTO        Altoona

(5) MG          Altoona

(4) ROCKVILLE   Rockville

(3) MO          Cresson

(2) VIEW        Duncannon, Pa.

(2) WYE

(2) Overbrook

(2) generic wood bay window tower

(1) BANKS       Marysville, Pa.

(1) AR          Gallitzin

(1) LEMO        Lemoyne

(1) SLOPE       Altoona

(1) ?           Newport, Pa. (interchange with Newport & Shermans Valley

(1) Paoli

(1) Bryn Mawr

(1) ZOO

(1) AO

(1) SO

(1) C

(1) Lock Haven

(1) generic octagonal tower

(1) HUNT

(1) JACKS

(1) KN          Kittanning Point



---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS



"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of

Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana

products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",

the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-

Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are

providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit

our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.

------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------





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From: "Bill Lane" <billlane@snip.net>

Subject: [PRR] Unbreakable

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:06:14 -0500



Hi All,



I saw the movie "Unbreakable" this weekend, which was filmed in

Philadelphia. There are a few railroad references and scenes. The High Line

is very visible in the background of about 4 minutes of the film. One of the

opening scenes shows Bruce Willis on a train leaving Trenton station. They

also show the derailment site of the "Eastrail" train that he was on. I am

almost positive the news scene after that said that the "eastbound Eastrail

train derailed". Well if you are going from New York to Philadelphia via

Trenton, you will not be traveling east. The doctor in the hospital also

grilled him as to where he was sitting on the train. "Were you sitting in

the passenger car" was asked numerous times. Where else would ANYONE sit on

a train besides a passenger car? Hollywood could correct such errors by

asking a well-versed 10-year-old rail fan.





 My girlfriend liked it. I thought it was O.K. Perhaps you would like to see

it for yourself.



Thanks

Bill





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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:16:47 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable



Of course, its possible that Hollywood gave an accurate rendition of an

ignorant doctor whose 7 year old gladly mixes freight and passenger cars

together on his Lionel train set ;-)



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================



Bill Lane wrote:

> 

> Hi All,

> 

> I saw the movie "Unbreakable" this weekend, which was filmed in

> Philadelphia. There are a few railroad references and scenes. The High Line

> is very visible in the background of about 4 minutes of the film. One of the

> opening scenes shows Bruce Willis on a train leaving Trenton station. They

> also show the derailment site of the "Eastrail" train that he was on. I am

> almost positive the news scene after that said that the "eastbound Eastrail

> train derailed". Well if you are going from New York to Philadelphia via

> Trenton, you will not be traveling east. The doctor in the hospital also

> grilled him as to where he was sitting on the train. "Were you sitting in

> the passenger car" was asked numerous times. Where else would ANYONE sit on

> a train besides a passenger car? Hollywood could correct such errors by

> asking a well-versed 10-year-old rail fan.

> 

>  My girlfriend liked it. I thought it was O.K. Perhaps you would like to see

> it for yourself.

> 

> Thanks

> Bill





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From: bobsin@nac.net

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:35:43 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable



Along the lines of movie gaffes, and apologies if this was discussed 

in the past, but in "Fargo" there is a shot in a junkyard which is 

supposed to be in Minnesota, I think.



In the background, an AEM-7 sails by with Amfleet in tow; it looks 

to be somewhere in the Jersey Meadows on the (Hudson-New 

York) High Line.  Sure enough, in the credits there is mention of 

New Jersey -- and none of the movie takes place outside the 

Midwest!  I guess when they need a junkyard, they go to the 

source!



John Bobsin



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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:48:11 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/5/00 8:35 AM, bobsin@nac.net (bobsin@nac.net) wrote:



> Along the lines of movie gaffes, and apologies if this was discussed

> in the past, but in "Fargo" there is a shot in a junkyard which is

> supposed to be in Minnesota, I think.

> 

The other night I was flipping channels and saw the scene in "Titanic" where

they hit the iceberg. Now, I've seen the movie a half dozen times and I've

just noticed this: when they see the iceberg, the order is given to turn

"hard to starboard" (that's to the right for landlubbers -- I was pilot

certified by the Coast Guard at age 16 on the Chesapeake Bay). But history

records, and the movie accurately reflects, that they turn "hard to port"

(left)!



Now, the argument may be made that the "starboard" order was given because

there was also conjecture that the ship was ordered into "reverse". A turn

to starboard in reverse might be more effective than keeping the rudder

straight or to port. However, the quickest left turn with a multi-screw boat

would be to keep the starboard screws in forward and the port screws in

reverse. A boat not underway can turn on a dime in this fashion and the

captain of the Titanic would no doubt have exercised this maneuver, but he

wasn't on the bridge at the time of the impact!



Oh, yeah, to make all of this legit: the PRR advertised connections with the

arrival of the Titanic in New York.  ;-)

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Unbreakable (Fargo)

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:51:27 -0500 



Listers,



The scrapyard is most likely the Naporano Scrap yard in Newark.  It can be

seen from the Turnpike.  I remember years ago driving down the Turnpike and

seeing GG1s awaiting the torch. (obligatory PRR content)  It was always

amazing to see what was parked there.





Chris Chany



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From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:45:55 -0700



Jerry and all,



One minor correction to your post, and that is that the Titanic is NOT a

boat. By strict definition (which means that there is one exception) a boat

is a vessel that is small enough to be carried on the deck of a larger ship.

Anyone out there know what that exception is, and for extra points why this

particular class of vessels are properly refereed to as "boats"?...yeah, I

know there is no PRR content so far but like most former sailors I like

accuracy. Actually there is a railroad connection to this, which will be

revealed later. ;-)



Bill Daniels



p.s. to Ivan...I know you know the answer, so let someone else have a crack

at this.









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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:58:10 -0500 



List,



Submarines are called boats.  Is the reason because of the German name for

subs.  (Obligatory PRR content)  A U-boat brought the German saboteurs to

America to blow up Horseshoe curve.





Chris Chany



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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:57:15 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



Bill,



     How about PT-Boats? Big enough to be a ship but ever called one.

Which may or may not have been built by Alco which built PRR Diesel

Locos....Gary









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:09:19 -0500

Subject: [PRR] The "PRR Virtual Layout"

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



I would have preferred to delay announcement of this until the initial

version was done, but its actual construction involved placing links to it

from other pages. Therefore, folks are gonna trip over it anyway!



I've created something new on "Keystone Crossings" which may actually be

something new in all of model railroading: I've linked multiple model

railroads together into a "PRR Virtual Layout"!



By color coding divisional maps, one may quickly see what areas of the PRR

are modeled and click links to visit their layout's web site. I think it's a

cool concept and I hope it grows over the coming years.



The main site provides more explanation:



    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/virtual_prr/index.html



The member layouts have graphic links which contains some anomalous code

which I will fix this evening.



There are a few division maps yet to be posted. However, only the missing

Renovo Division has an active participant thus far.



The division maps will eventually use HTML "image maps" so you can actually

click on a segment on the map and be transferred to the appropriate layout

web site. For now, one clicks on the link in the legend shown on each

division map.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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From: bobsin@nac.net

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:54:20 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic/Fargo



Miscellaney on this vital thread:



-- The German submarine saboteurs reportedly landed on Long 

Island and traveled to NYC on that famous PRR subsidiary, the 

Long Island Rail Road.  (I think they boarded at Amagansett.)



-- If boats can be placed on a larger vessel, I guess GE's U-Boats 

qualify.  At least the export models.



-- Naporano is close to the Passaic & Harsimus Branch but not I 

think in sight from the High Line.  Meatballs on the P&H would be 

most unlikely since the wires came down.



-- Perhaps the left/right port/starboard confusion on the Titanic 

came from the fact that they built only one side of the ship, and 

some of the movie was shot with the film "flopped" to make it look 

like the other side (the actors wore mirror-image uniforms!).



John Bobsin



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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:04:00 -0600

From: Jeff Toreki <jtoreki@mail.utexas.edu>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



Aren't the ore freighters on the Great Lakes properly referred to as boats? 

I think its use came from the 19th century term "pig-boats" (from hauling

pig iron, I assume).



Jeff   



At 07:45 AM 12/05/2000 -0700, Bill Daniels wrote:

>Jerry and all,

>

>One minor correction to your post, and that is that the Titanic is NOT a

>boat. By strict definition (which means that there is one exception) a boat

>is a vessel that is small enough to be carried on the deck of a larger ship.

>Anyone out there know what that exception is, and for extra points why this

>particular class of vessels are properly refereed to as "boats"?...yeah, I

>know there is no PRR content so far but like most former sailors I like

>accuracy. Actually there is a railroad connection to this, which will be

>revealed later. ;-)

>

>Bill Daniels

>

>p.s. to Ivan...I know you know the answer, so let someone else have a crack

>at this.

>

>

>

>

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From: "Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com>

Subject: RE: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:56:12 -0500 



Hi Bill & Ya-all,

Submarines were always refered to as "boats". Possibly from the German

"U-Boat" which was actually Undervasserboot.(spelling???) The tie-in to the

PRR I believe was Fairbanks-Moorse which made the diesel engines (opposed

pistons) for the U.S. Fleet Submarines of WWII, and was used in the 1st

generation of diesel locomotives for the railroad after the war.

Did I win anything??

Buzz

PRRT&HS #271

 



-----Original Message-----

From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]

Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:57 AM

To: billd@gci-net.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic





Bill,



     How about PT-Boats? Big enough to be a ship but ever called one.

Which may or may not have been built by Alco which built PRR Diesel

Locos....Gary









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA





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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

Subject: Fw: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:23:16 -0500





----- Original Message -----

From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>

To: "Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com>

Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:21 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic





> List:

>

> It's "unterseeboot" or "under the sea boat" in German. It was Baldwin De

La

> Vergne engines used in U.S. submarines and many PRR Baldwin switchers.

> Because these engines had to operate underwater (using a snorkel) in

wartime

> hostile conditions they were highly reliable and therefore liked by PRR

> maintenance people.

>

> Re: the exception. I don't think anything that floated exclusively in the

> Great Lakes was ever called a ship.

>

> Gregg Mahlkov

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Burnley, Charles" <Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com>

> To: "'PRR-TALK@DSOP.COM'" <PRR-TALK@dsop.com>

> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1:56 PM

> Subject: RE: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

>

>

> > Hi Bill & Ya-all,

> > Submarines were always refered to as "boats". Possibly from the German

> > "U-Boat" which was actually Undervasserboot.(spelling???) The tie-in to

> the

> > PRR I believe was Fairbanks-Moorse which made the diesel engines

(opposed

> > pistons) for the U.S. Fleet Submarines of WWII, and was used in the 1st

> > generation of diesel locomotives for the railroad after the war.

> > Did I win anything??

> > Buzz

> > PRRT&HS #271

> >

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]

> > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:57 AM

> > To: billd@gci-net.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com

> > Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

> >

> >

> > Bill,

> >

> >      How about PT-Boats? Big enough to be a ship but ever called one.

> > Which may or may not have been built by Alco which built PRR Diesel

> > Locos....Gary

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

> > Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

> > ..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

> > and......

> > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

> > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to

> > "listserv@dsop.com".

> >

>





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From: "m mcm" <radclyff@erie.net>

Subject: [PRR] Starboard is Port

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:51:31 -0500



The wheel of ship in 1912 was set up like the ancient tiller, moving it to

starboard turned the

rudder to port.

With the widespread advent of the automobile, the rigging of a wheel was

changed so that turning the wheel to starboard turned the rudder to

starboard.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

To: <bobsin@nac.net>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:48 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic





> On 12/5/00 8:35 AM, bobsin@nac.net (bobsin@nac.net) wrote:

>

> > Along the lines of movie gaffes, and apologies if this was discussed

> > in the past, but in "Fargo" there is a shot in a junkyard which is

> > supposed to be in Minnesota, I think.

> >

> The other night I was flipping channels and saw the scene in "Titanic"

where

> they hit the iceberg. Now, I've seen the movie a half dozen times and I've

> just noticed this: when they see the iceberg, the order is given to turn

> "hard to starboard" (that's to the right for landlubbers -- I was pilot

> certified by the Coast Guard at age 16 on the Chesapeake Bay). But history

> records, and the movie accurately reflects, that they turn "hard to port"

> (left)!

>

> Now, the argument may be made that the "starboard" order was given because

> there was also conjecture that the ship was ordered into "reverse". A turn

> to starboard in reverse might be more effective than keeping the rudder

> straight or to port. However, the quickest left turn with a multi-screw

boat

> would be to keep the starboard screws in forward and the port screws in

> reverse. A boat not underway can turn on a dime in this fashion and the

> captain of the Titanic would no doubt have exercised this maneuver, but he

> wasn't on the bridge at the time of the impact!

>

> Oh, yeah, to make all of this legit: the PRR advertised connections with

the

> arrival of the Titanic in New York.  ;-)

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com

> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

> Free serving of railroad web sites

>     http://www.railfancentral.com

>

>

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>





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:50:37 -0500

Subject: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/5/00 3:51 PM, m mcm (radclyff@erie.net) wrote:



> The wheel of ship in 1912 was set up like the ancient tiller, moving it to

> starboard turned the

> rudder to port.

> With the widespread advent of the automobile, the rigging of a wheel was

> changed so that turning the wheel to starboard turned the rudder to

> starboard.



That's even more interesting...



The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

go to port, as the real ship did. That's not affected by your statement

above.



But, VISUALLY, they show the wheel being turned to port, not starboard, as

you indicate above...so that would be another flaw!!!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:05:50 -0500 (EST)

From: Will <alcoman@net.bluemoon.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port





Umm PRR PRR PRR.....they have boating lists for this kind of stuff



On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Jerry Britton wrote:



>On 12/5/00 3:51 PM, m mcm (radclyff@erie.net) wrote:

>

>> The wheel of ship in 1912 was set up like the ancient tiller, moving it to

>> starboard turned the

>> rudder to port.

>> With the widespread advent of the automobile, the rigging of a wheel was

>> changed so that turning the wheel to starboard turned the rudder to

>> starboard.

>

>That's even more interesting...

>

>The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

>go to port, as the real ship did. That's not affected by your statement

>above.

>

>But, VISUALLY, they show the wheel being turned to port, not starboard, as

>you indicate above...so that would be another flaw!!!

>---------------------------------------------------------

>Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

>Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

>    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

>    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

>Free serving of railroad web sites

>    http://www.railfancentral.com

>

>

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>"listserv@dsop.com".

>



Will Semanchuk-Enser  Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator

alcoman@bluemoon.net  www.bluemoon.net - The Blue Moon Internet Corp.

V.90, X2 & K56flex    www.railfan.net  - The Railfan Network  

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:19:55 -0400

From: prrbill <prrbill@Op.Net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Starboard is Port



m mcm wrote:

> 

> The wheel of ship in 1912 was set up like the ancient tiller, moving it to

> starboard turned the

> rudder to port.

> With the widespread advent of the automobile, the rigging of a wheel was

> changed so that turning the wheel to starboard turned the rudder to

> starboard.

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

> To: <bobsin@nac.net>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>

> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:48 AM

> Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

> 

> > On 12/5/00 8:35 AM, bobsin@nac.net (bobsin@nac.net) wrote:

> >

> > > Along the lines of movie gaffes, and apologies if this was discussed

> > > in the past, but in "Fargo" there is a shot in a junkyard which is

> > > supposed to be in Minnesota, I think.

> > >

> > The other night I was flipping channels and saw the scene in "Titanic"

> where

> > they hit the iceberg. Now, I've seen the movie a half dozen times and I've

> > just noticed this: when they see the iceberg, the order is given to turn

> > "hard to starboard" (that's to the right for landlubbers -- I was pilot

> > certified by the Coast Guard at age 16 on the Chesapeake Bay). But history

> > records, and the movie accurately reflects, that they turn "hard to port"

> > (left)!

> >

> > Now, the argument may be made that the "starboard" order was given because

> > there was also conjecture that the ship was ordered into "reverse". A turn

> > to starboard in reverse might be more effective than keeping the rudder

> > straight or to port. However, the quickest left turn with a multi-screw

> boat

> > would be to keep the starboard screws in forward and the port screws in

> > reverse. A boat not underway can turn on a dime in this fashion and the

> > captain of the Titanic would no doubt have exercised this maneuver, but he

> > wasn't on the bridge at the time of the impact!





This was discussed to the Nth degree about a year ago at the

'sci.military.naval' newsgroup.  While not entering into the statement

about the tiller (which really applied to sailing days), what happened

on the Titanic's bridge was first the order for the helmsman to put his

wheel hard a starboard (from the First Officer) and then reverse the

engines.  At the time, this was accepted practice at sea and thought to

be the quickest way to put the ship to port. 



Two things prevented that from happening:  



First, the rudder of the Titanic was too small in area for the size of

the ship to effect such a turn.  Andrews, the ship's designer, had not

compensated for the size, speed or correct placement of the rudder on

such a huge triple screwed ship so even when put hard over, it would

have taken several hundred yards more to miss the berg.



Second, the First Officer (name escapes me) didn't realize that the

speed of the ship versus the amount of time in reversing the engines

would take the ship so close to the berg.



And as to a PRR connection, there was a PRR (IIRC) Vice President,

Thayer, on board.  He went down with the ship.



Bill Morlitz



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:19:12 -0500 (EST)

From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@alycia.dementia.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port



On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Jerry Britton wrote:



> That's even more interesting...

> 

> The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

> go to port, as the real ship did. That's not affected by your statement

> above.



The vocabulary was correct. The terminology used had not kept pace with

technology, so what you heard in the movie was correct.



Patrick 



===========================================================================

"...And the sons of Pullman porters, and the sons of engineers, ride their

father's magic carpets made of steel."

-"The City of New Orleans" by Steve Goodman

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick

Volunteer, The Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati

(formerly Railway Exposition Company), Latonia, Kentucky

PRRT&HS #6713

============================================================================







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From: Eichhorn@aol.com

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:31:09 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port





--part1_c8.dda3a86.275eb89d_boundary

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



In a message dated 12/05/2000 4:00:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:





> The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

> 



Jerry,



Might they have said "larboard", which could have easily been misunderstood 

for "starboard"? :-))



Never did understand why the old sailors used those terms. It gets hard 

enough, when there is any sort of excitement taking place, to get the desired 

results even when the directive is simply "left" or "right".



George



--part1_c8.dda3a86.275eb89d_boundary

Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 12/05/2000 4:00:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<BR>

<BR>

<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say turn to starboard...but they

<BR>go to port</BLOCKQUOTE>

<BR>

<BR>Jerry,

<BR>

<BR>Might they have said "larboard", which could have easily been misunderstood <BR>for "starboard"? :-))

<BR>

<BR>Never did understand why the old sailors used those terms. It gets hard <BR>enough, when there is any sort of excitement taking place, to get the desired <BR>results even when the directive is simply "left" or "right".

<BR>

<BR>George</FONT></HTML>



--part1_c8.dda3a86.275eb89d_boundary--



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From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman)

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:38:39 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: [PRR] Starboard or steerboard.



 The word starboard comes from the word steerboard. Originally on

ancient ships the rudder or steerboard as it was called was located on

the right side just aft of midships. It was not located aft on the

centerline of the keel.  Anyone know how port got its name? I didn't

know the Pennsy had sail powered water equipment.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:20:36 -0700



Ok...as some of you have received a reply from me (and I am getting tired of

sending everyone a separate message...I spend 8 hours a day slaving over a

hot computer and when I get home...;-).

American submarines are always refereed to as "boats". The tradition started

way back in the early days when subs were actually small enough to be

carried on larger tenders. The nickname stuck, and even today with 600'+

monsters out there they are still "boats".



One of the guys reminded me that the Great Lakes vessels are also boats

(embarrassing since I grew up in Detroit, and should know better!) and that

is also true.



As far as I know the only subs that are properly refereed to as boats are

American subs, and I know of no other nation that subscribes to that

tradition, even the Germans (whose U-boat was a contradiction of

"Undterseeboaten" (not speaking German, I hope I got it right).



Of course, the common usage of FM diesels in the boats is a tie-in

(interestingly enough EMD diesels were not well thought of in the Navy, due

to a tendency to burn valves). The development of reliable diesels for

submarine service led the way for their development in locomotive service.

The electric kitchen was another submarine development that also found it's

way into railroad service as well.



Bill Daniels (former MM-2/SS)

Tucson, AZ





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Graeme Nitz" <prr@unite.com.au>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:38:05 +1100



Listers,

Isn't it true that the German U-Boats were more properly identified as

"submersibles" rather than submarines?

Also a friend in the "Know" (ex-Navy) tells me the word "boat" is used for

anything shorter than 100 feet! No matter what it is used for or how

carried.



Whats this has got to do with PRR I don't know but what the heck!!



Graeme Nitz

PRRT&HS Member #1313

prr@unite.com.au

An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak"

With a touch of Reading.





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: bobsin@nac.net

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:51:33 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



Fireman spends much of his life in hot, smoky cab with PRR 

engineman.  At start of each run, engineman unlocks a small box 

he carries in his satchel, extracts piece of paper, reads same, 

carefully locks up again.  Fireman sees this every day for years.



Finally Engineman Casey dies at the throttle.  As they are packing 

his mortal remains off, fireman, unable to contain himself, opens 

the locked box to read:



When da signal has 3 horizontal lights, stop.  Otherwise don't stop.



+++++++++++



Apologies to the old nautical equivalent (Right side of the ship is 

starboard, left side of the ship is port.)



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From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:15:36 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



In a message dated 12/5/2000 2:07:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com writes:



> Submarines were always refered to as "boats". Possibly from the German

>  "U-Boat" which was actually Undervasserboot.(spelling???) The tie-in to the

>  PRR I believe was Fairbanks-Moorse which made the diesel engines (opposed

>  pistons) for the U.S. Fleet Submarines of WWII, and was used in the 1st

>  generation of diesel locomotives for the railroad after the war.



US submarines in the WWII period used a pretty even mix of GM and F-M OP 

Diesel engines.  U-Boat is from the German Unterseeboot. 



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:15:37 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



In a message dated 12/5/2000 10:09:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

mittner@webtv.net writes:



>      How about PT-Boats? Big enough to be a ship but ever called one.

>  Which may or may not have been built by Alco which built PRR Diesel

>  Locos....Gary



WW II US PT boats (MBT, Motor Boat Torpedo) were built by Huckins, Higgins, 

and ELCO.  Most had Packard or Allison gasoline engines (three V-12's with 

total HP near 5,500 ASAE).  They were not individually commissioned (a whole 

squadron of 12 or so was commissioned at once), so that there was no "USS PT 

109" for best-known example.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:15:38 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



In a message dated 12/5/2000 8:54:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:



> The other night I was flipping channels and saw the scene in "Titanic" where

>  they hit the iceberg. Now, I've seen the movie a half dozen times and I've

>  just noticed this: when they see the iceberg, the order is given to turn

>  "hard to starboard" (that's to the right for landlubbers -- I was pilot

>  certified by the Coast Guard at age 16 on the Chesapeake Bay). But history

>  records, and the movie accurately reflects, that they turn "hard to port"

>  (left)!



In 1912, a British RN/RMS helmsman was still given TILLER directions, as if 

he was controlling the rudder directly (one real long tiller for the 

Titanic); to turn to port, the tiller is moved to the "starboard" (the word 

derives from "sterbord", the steering oar was initially suspended from the 

right side of a vessel (the "port" side is so named as landings would be done 

with the left side of the vessel facing the dock, pier, whatever, so as to 

not foul the steering oar)): therefore the command is "hard a-starboard".  

Which way the helmsman turns the wheel (which on the Titanic was just a 

remote control for a steam steering engine acting on the top of the rudder 

post) depended on ship design.  The manual steering gear in the stern of the 

ship would use multiple

wheels and multiple seamen to turn the rudder post, and would most likely be 

rigged to turn clockwise to move the tiller to the starboard side to make a 

turn to port. 



At 22 knots (37 feet per second) at 500 yards from the alert sighting, the 

ship would not have begun to "answer the helm", nor have been able to reverse 

the engines, before making the infamous contact with the dislocated piece of 

Greenland or whereever.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: BBReynolds@aol.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:15:42 EST

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic



In a message dated 12/5/2000 11:15:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

jtoreki@mail.utexas.edu writes:



> Aren't the ore freighters on the Great Lakes properly referred to as boats? 

>  I think its use came from the 19th century term "pig-boats" (from hauling

>  pig iron, I assume).



The compilation in three volumes, <Great Lakes Ships We Remember>, uses the

terms with no particular pattern; as far as the Coast Guard is concerned, the 

"boats" on the Great Lakes are "ships".  Many of the "boats" were used for 

shipping on both fresh and salt water; dozens were requisitioned in WWI and 

WWII and wound up in 

some corners far removed from Duluth, Toledo, or Sandusky.



Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:17:34 -0500 (EST)

From: bubbles@visi.net

Subject: [PRR] Titanic





 Ok...



  Since we're on this thread.....

  And to keep it PRR related.

  The Titanic was owned by the White Star Line.

  White Star Line was in turn owned by

  IMM (International Mercantile Marine)



  IMM was either owned or controlled by

  J.P.Morgan the financier. The same J.P. Morgan who 

  had met with A.J.Cassatt in New York about the

  New York station project and other

  PRR matters.



  It does'nt surprise me that Mr. Thayer was

  on the Titanic as the White Star Line

  was a PRR friendly shipping line.

  Both British and American PRR stockholders used

  the White Star Line because of this.

  It is also no surprize there were many

  well to do Philadelphia families on board

  as they probably had ties to both

  the PRR and White Star Line.

  There was also a Grand Trunk Rwy. president

  or vice president that also went down

  with the Titanic.



  And yes the ships wheel was ordered to 

  Hard a Starboard because of the

  setup of the Titanic's steering

  gear and the state of the art of British

  (Irish)shipbuilding at that time.

  There are a few books on the Titanic that explain

  why this was so.(And if needed

  i can dig my Titanic books out

  and relate this to any who need to

  know).



  Have fun....



                      Til Later

                      Hank Mummert





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 06:32:25 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/6/00 12:15 AM, BBReynolds@aol.com at (BBReynolds@aol.com) wrote:



> At 22 knots (37 feet per second) at 500 yards from the alert sighting,



I see we have some rivet counting maritime experts on the list! <grin>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:03:11 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Starboard is Port





--- Eichhorn@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/05/2000 4:00:41 PM Eastern

> Standard Time, 

> jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

> 

> 

> > The flaw in the movie is that they VERBALLY say

> turn to starboard...but they

> > 

> 

> Jerry,

> 

> Might they have said "larboard", which could have

> easily been misunderstood 

> for "starboard"? :-))

> 



If I recall correctly from reading Samuel Clemens

"Life on the Mississippi", the term "larboard" was

peculiar to the inland waterways of the US,

particularly the Mississippi and its tributaries



Of course this is related to PRR as numerous PRR lines

in western PA paralleled navigable waterways where the

term would have been used.







=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:07:57 -0800 (PST)

From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>

Subject: [PRR] Virtual PRR maps



Jerry,



I'm interested in the base maps you used in the

Virtual PRR pages. Do you know when PRR issued those

maps and would you post that information?



I'm guessing they're from the mid to late 30's, but

would like to know the facks.







=====

Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:13:43 -0500

From: Stephen Bartlett <sbartlet@capecod.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] Starboard or steerboard.



Maybe the steerboard prevented docking with that side of the ship

against a pier, hence the "port" side.



An article in the "Keystone" a few years ago describing the PRR's

rubber-tired tractors (my word) used to switch some areas, possibly

Baltimore, showed a view of the wheel house with two signs with arrows. 

I have to guess at the exact words, but a sign on the left, pointing

left, read "Starboard," or "Right," and a sign on the right, pointing

right, read "Port" or "Left."  An explanation given in a later issue

stated that this was because the wheel operated the same as the wheel in

an old sailing ship, not like a modern road vehicle.  The early wheels

were rigged to operate the same as a tiller: push or turn to the left,

and the ship would move to the right.



Steve Bartlett





Subject: Re: [PRR] Starboard or steerboard.

From: "Mark Lehman" <K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net>

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:38:39 -0500 (EST)



 The word starboard comes from the word steerboard. Originally on

ancient ships the rudder or steerboard as it was called was located on

the right side just aft of midships. It was not located aft on the

centerline of the keel.  Anyone know how port got its name? I didn't

know the Pennsy had sail powered water equipment.



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From: "Charles E. Whary" <cwhary@paonline.com>

Subject: [PRR] Power Packs

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:41:03 -0500



This is a multi-part message in MIME format.



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	charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



People,



I have used MRC power packs for sale. Anyone interested please contact me

off line.

E-mail address  cwhary@paonline.com  thanx.



Charles Whary





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	charset="iso-8859-1"

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>

<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>

<BODY>

<P><FONT size=3D2>People,<BR><BR>I have used MRC power packs for sale. =

Anyone=20

interested please contact me off line.<BR>E-mail =

address<STRONG><EM>&nbsp;=20

</EM><A =

href=3D"mailto:cwhary@paonline.com"><EM>cwhary@paonline.com</EM></A>&nbsp=

;=20

</STRONG>thanx.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT size=3D2>Charles</FONT> <FONT =

size=3D2>Whary</FONT></P></BODY></HTML>



------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C05F60.4431FE00--





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Subject:  [PRR] Unbreakable/Titanic

From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:11:28 -0600





Is there not a different subject we can talk about?  The reaches for a

thread to the Pennsylvania is really slim.  Can we move on?



Randy Williamson





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:16:54 -0600 (CST)

From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)

Subject: [PRR] PRR:  Info please



I have three PRR composite gons.  The instructions for completing the

models say weight should be added under the floor and suggest thin sheets

of lead or  brass.  I prefer to use lead as you can get the needed weight

without as much height as would be needed with brass.  My hobby shop has

been unable to get any of these sheets for me.  Does anyone in the group

have a source?



Many thanks



Don Harper

Texas A&M Marine Lab

5007 Avenue U

Galveston, TX  77551

409/740-4540







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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:33:03 -0500

From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Info please



Home Depot, or any building material yard.  The stuff is used for roof

flashing and comes in large (by model RR standards) rolls.  The seller

will cut off as much as you need and charge you by the pound.  A foot or

two off a roll should last you half a lifetime and cost $3-$4.  You can

cut it into small pieces with a pair of scissors.



Regards,



Andy Miller

asmiller@mitre.org



===================================================

Don Harper wrote:

> 

> I have three PRR composite gons.  The instructions for completing the

> models say weight should be added under the floor and suggest thin sheets

> of lead or  brass.  I prefer to use lead as you can get the needed weight

> without as much height as would be needed with brass.  My hobby shop has

> been unable to get any of these sheets for me.  Does anyone in the group

> have a source?

> 

> Many thanks

> 

> Don Harper

> Texas A&M Marine Lab

> 5007 Avenue U

> Galveston, TX  77551

> 409/740-4540

> 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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--





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>

Subject: [PRR] PRR, Message Content, Subject, Topics

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:36:46 -0500



Fellow PRR (Sometimes) Listers:



I'm normally quite patient with off topic posts - some of them are

interesting and useful,  However. . . . !!  The thread on Unbreakable, port

vs starboard vs larboard, tiller vs. wheel, left vs. right, design of the

Titanic, boat vs. ship, and several other topics has assumed a life of it's

own.  If I counted right, since I emptied my trash there have been 16 posts

on these topics!  I can maybe accept the first one - it was a current movie

with a train on supposedly PRR tracks, but really, gang!  Can we somehow

chase these off list?  A little bit is ok, but well, you get the idea.  And

I'm as quick with the delete key as the next guy!



PRR content:  I'm about to leave for a day of railroad archeology in and

around Williamsport PA.  I have the appropriate pages from the CT-1000, old

topo maps, a track chart (of sorts), Sanborn maps, and up to date street and

topo maps.  I find Williamsport a fascinating place which would make a

superb PRR switching/industrial model railroad.  I plan to work as much of

it as I can into my 1945 Renovo Division layout.  I'll let you know how the

day went, then those who are interested can discuss it with me off line,

unless there is significant interest in doing it on line!



Onward!  Upward!  The PRR is dead; long live the PRR!



Bill Bigler

Big Flats NY

Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII









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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:54:20 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] Williamsport

From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>



On 12/6/02 9:36 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote:



> PRR content:  I'm about to leave for a day of railroad archeology in and

> around Williamsport PA.  I have the appropriate pages from the CT-1000, old

> topo maps, a track chart (of sorts), Sanborn maps, and up to date street and

> topo maps.  I find Williamsport a fascinating place which would make a

> superb PRR switching/industrial model railroad.  I plan to work as much of

> it as I can into my 1945 Renovo Division layout.  I'll let you know how the

> day went, then those who are interested can discuss it with me off line,

> unless there is significant interest in doing it on line!

> 

If you can fit it in, spend a little while travelling north out of

Williamsport up the old Elmira Branch right of way...beautiful scenery as

the track hugged the edge of the mountains at points...Trout Run, Canton,

etc.



Of course, this isn't Renovo Division...sounds like you'll be heading west!

---------------------------------------------------------

Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.

"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com

"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

Free serving of railroad web sites

    http://www.railfancentral.com





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Zyla, Joe" <Joe.Zyla@astrazeneca.com>

Subject: [PRR] CV Crew/train assignments...

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:38:21 -0500 



This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand

this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.



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Hello All,

 

In looking into the cabin cars assignments, how do I determine if the crew

numbers are assigned for Cumberland Valley runs?  The ones specific to CV

are easy, but what about "ENOLA 800 CREW", as an example?

 

Joe Zyla

Doylestown, PA  





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<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000>Hello All,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000>In looking into the cabin cars 

  assignments, how do I determine if the crew numbers are assigned for 

  Cumberland Valley runs?&nbsp; The ones specific to CV are easy, but what about 

  "ENOLA 800 CREW", as an example?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000>Joe Zyla</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff 

  face=Arial><SPAN class=128033814-06122000>Doylestown, PA&nbsp; 

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:52:32 -0500

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Info please

From: Eugene Nowlan <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>



Lead sheets is available from large plumbing wholesaler/supplier will cut

off the amount you  want. Locally they buy 4'x8' sheets.



Loy Spurlock of Loy's Toys sells small quantities of lead sheet by mail

order.

<LoysToys@alltel.net>







Gene,



Eugene Nowlan





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 11:12:13 -0500

From: "John Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Info please



I get them at my local hardware store (Not Lowes or BHome depot).



John Ryan



Don Harper wrote:

> 

> I have three PRR composite gons.  The instructions for completing the

> models say weight should be added under the floor and suggest thin sheets

> of lead or  brass.  I prefer to use lead as you can get the needed weight

> without as much height as would be needed with brass.  My hobby shop has

> been unable to get any of these sheets for me.  Does anyone in the group

> have a source?



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:17:29 -0500

From: "Tom Mahon" <tmahon@cfnh.com>

Subject: [PRR] Titanic- ENOUGH!!!



The boat is still on the bottom of the Atlantic. The 1500 people are

still dead. Historical accuracy in any movie is an incredible accident.

ENOUGH!!



Tom Mahon

Merrimack, NH





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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:43:01 -0500 (EST)

Subject: [PRR] 1 More F3 Question.



List,



    As I continue to get ready to convert my G Scale F3 into Pennsy

EH-15 I have come up with one more question. This would concern a PRR

Unit in any scale. Again, I do not have a lot of photos of PRR F Units

so I am asking for help. I leafed thru my Pennsy Power Books trying to

see if the EH or EF 1500's (interested in F3's only) had the grab irons

going up the engineers side of the nose. I can't seem to locate a

picture showing this. I am assuming, maybe wrong, but it looks like the

number board would get in the way of these rungs. Did in fact the F3s

have these? 

   Another question on the same subject. That grab iron located on the

top of the nose on both the engineers side and firemans side, this has a

special shape. I was told this is for a ladder connection. Meaning a

portable ladder can be attached by a maintance worker so he could climb

to the windshield area.  Is this correct? If so, then the nose side grab

on an F3 need not be? PRR F7's have both the grabs and the top grab. 

    Thanks for all who had emailed me on the Number Board question I had

last week. TIA again.....Gary  









Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art

Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>>

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4

..  http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5

and......

http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY...

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:51:05 -0500

From: "John Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>

Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] 1 More F3 Question.



The grabs up the side of the nose were a Federal safety requirement. 

I'm not sure when the rule became effective.



John Ryan



mittner@webtv.net wrote:

> 

> List,

> 

>     As I continue to get ready to convert my G Scale F3 into Pennsy

> EH-15 I have come up with one more question. This would concern a PRR

> Unit in any scale. Again, I do not have a lot of photos of PRR F Units

> so I am asking for help. I leafed thru my Pennsy Power Books trying to

> see if the EH or EF 1500's (interested in F3's only) had the grab irons

> going up the engineers side of the nose. I