Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 00:14:09 -0500 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? --On 10/31/2000 02:39:27 PM -0800 "Matthew J. Brown" wrote: > What would members of the list consider the essential books the serious > PRR fan should own? I'm fairly new at all this, and there are a LOT of > books out there. I'm interested in the period 1940-1960 in particular, > and from both a general historical standpoint and a modelling one. > > What books should I definitely own? What books should I avoid, also? There's a discussion of this in the list archive if you want to see what answers were given probably a year or two ago. Also, Rob's site (prr.railfan.net) should have a nice bibliography if you want to check that out. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:35:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units Ted, I supplied the color chips to Athearn for the Dark Green Locomotive paint PRR Shade, (damn can't I just say Brunswick Green?) and the Buff for the lettering. I think they were shocked with how dark the Brunswick Green really was. They have done their homework. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 05:35:15 -0500 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? I would have to agree that Don Ball's book is the number one must-have volume. To the list I would add Pennsy Power I and II by Al Stauffer, with text by Bert Pennypacker. These two books are just plain superb. While others may disagree, I'm not sure that Pennsy Power III would make it to a must-have PRR book list. It is not as polished as Pennsy Power I and II; Pennsy Power III is more of a miscellaneous picture book, with ho-hum supporting text. JONS6755@aol.com wrote: > Matt > I would have to say of all the PRR books out there (and there are many !!) > If I > had to pick one it would be The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s by the late > Don Ball Jr. published by Elm Tree Books. A must have ! ! ! > Jon S. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 06:12:30 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? Matt, The essential questions seems to be how big are your bookshelves and how deep are your pockets. :) When I get questions at the PRRT&HS website, these are among the first books I turn to: 1. The 3 Pennsy Power books by Alvin Staufer - THE guides to motive power 2. The Don Ball Jr. book The Pennsylvania Railroad-1940's and 1950's - the best (IMHO) single overall color pictorial PRR book 3. Morning Sun books PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment (Vols. 1 & 2) - for your modeling 4. As many PRRT&HS National publication "Keystones" (quarterly) and PRRT&HS Phila. Chapter Highlines (annual) as needed Then we get into the pure enjoyment books, mainly pictorial, which gives flavor to the PRR. You have to pick and choose as to your needs: 1. Crossroads of Commerce by Dan Cupper; the definitive book on the Grif Teller and the PRR calendars. On second thought, this should be considered an essential book! 2. The various Morning Sun books from Bob Yanosey, David Sweetland, William Volkmer, Jeremy Plant and Ian Fischer (along with others) 3. The new Four Ways West PRR books by David Sweetland 4. Eric Hirsimaki's book Black Gold-Black Diamonds; Vols 1 & 2 There are many others including Welsh's Pennsy Streamliner's: Blue Ribbon Fleet (PRR passenger trains), Schaefer and Solomon's's Pennsylvania RR and Withers & Zak's Pennsy Electric Pictorial. Best, Bill Morlitz, PRRT&HS Website Superintendent ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 12:17:09 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? Hi all, encouraged by supporting motions from this list, I purchased Don Balls book here in Germany albeit the price was substantial (ca. 110,- DM). Wow, I did not regret the expense! The photos are superb in quality and they convey a feeling I never was able or will be able to experience in real life, as I was just a child in that days in Germany... Thanks again to all those who praised the book to convince me to buy it! Burkhard Sanner Germany P.S.: Another book I like (for the b+w photos) is Kalmbachs PRR.book in the Golden Years of Railroading series. DDembinski schrieb: > I would have to agree that Don Ball's book is the number one must-have volume. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] G26 and G26a information Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 06:13:52 -0500 Gentleman, I sent this message on Monday, but the server returned it to me because of a wording problem. So I am sending it again. I apologize if some of you received previously. I am in need of any information that you may have on G26 and G26a gondolas for an upcoming brass model project. I have a few Builders photos and 1 General Arrangement drawing. However, I need more, especially end details. Was the Ratcheting brake mechanism and the Ajax built concurrently? Does anyone know if there is still a G26 surviving? Do you have a photo of a G26 in Shadow Keystone? Any information that you have would be most appreciated. You will be compensated for your efforts. Thank You Bill Lane ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Don LaPlante Subject: [PRR] BACK ISSUES OF KEYSTONE MAG. Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:14:21 -0500 I HAVE BACK ISSUES OF KEYSTONE MAGAZINES VOL. 1 NO. 1 THRU VOL 19 NO.4. I AM MISSING VOL.'S 5 & 7. I WOULD LIKE TO SELL THESE OR TRADE FOR TWO LIFELIKE PENNSY E8'S IN TUSCAN. THESE ARE ONE OWNER, READ ONCE AND STORED IN A MILDEW FREE AREA. IF INTERESTED CONTACT ME AT DLAPLANTE@SIGTECH.COM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 12:39:16 EST From: Prr1187@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? I am fond of the older era, and one of my essential books: On The Main Line by Alexander. Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS 1974 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] LL undecorated warning Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:09:59 -0600 Hello all, Sorry about the multiple posts but I am not sure how many people knew this. While working on a Life Like Proto 2000 undecorated SD60 I had fully detailed the unit. Painted it up for the first coat. On the second coat the color came out totally wrong so I stripped it in isopropyl alcohol. When stripping the unit (undecorated mind you) the black paint on the engine was not the only thing to come off, there is also a gray base coat applied by LL. Because the engine was totally detailed and glued together I was unable to salvage the shell and such. I had to spend $37 to get back all the details lost on the previous engine. So consider this a word of warning, when working with LL undecorated units they are not totally undecorated, learn from my expensive mistake. By the way when on the phone with Life Like to order the replacement stuff I let them know that they should put a label on the undecorated units or something about this so as not to expensively surprise anyone. I do have 2 other undecorated models in my possession, fortunately I have not started to detail these as of yet, one is in the alcohol right now stripping. Thanks for you ears, or should I say eyes. Jeremy Helms Bellevue, Nebraska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 15:25:07 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? Matt, I always enjoy seeing what Bill offers up on questions like this as I always agree with him... So let me add to his list of "must haves" by adding the entire selection printed todate from Withers Publications on the PRR Locomotive vol.1 through 5. And I see that Dan is quiet, all that I would expect from such a modest man. These book are informative and capture the Pennsy some of the best Pennsy photography of the times, John D. Hahn needs special recognition by all Pennsy Fans. I only wish Paul could contact J.J.Young,Jr. and do similar a series with his photography, I would feel like I was dying and going to heaven. I can't wait until Paul and Dan put together the F-Unit series. This workhorse was as essential to the times as the Sherman tank was to General Patton... A favorite subject of mine as well an ongoing research project that I hope never ends. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:00:14 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] LL undecorated warning Jeremy, Had the same experience with an undec GP7. Painted it screwed it up and used Easy Lift Off only to discover a "primer" coat on the plastic. I was able to salvage to body and attached detail parts, but it did take some care and patience. Tom Mahon Jeremy & Soni Helms wrote: > Hello all, > > Sorry about the multiple posts but I am not sure how many people knew this. > While working on a Life Like Proto 2000 undecorated SD60 I had fully > detailed the unit. Painted it up for the first coat. On the second coat > the color came out totally wrong so I stripped it in isopropyl alcohol. > When stripping the unit (undecorated mind you) the black paint on the engine > was not the only thing to come off, there is also a gray base coat applied > by LL. Because the engine was totally detailed and glued together I was > unable to salvage the shell and such. I had to spend $37 to get back all > the details lost on the previous engine. So consider this a word of > warning, when working with LL undecorated units they are not totally > undecorated, learn from my expensive mistake. By the way when on the phone > with Life Like to order the replacement stuff I let them know that they > should put a label on the undecorated units or something about this so as > not to expensively surprise anyone. I do have 2 other undecorated models in > my possession, fortunately I have not started to detail these as of yet, one > is in the alcohol right now stripping. > > Thanks for you ears, or should I say eyes. > > Jeremy Helms > Bellevue, Nebraska > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:54:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS BoD Meeting Thank you for all of the input to my original request for concerns to be aired at the PRRT&HS Nov. BoD meeting. I have printed out 30 sets of comments and comments to comments, some of which were sent to me directly others sent to the various lists from whence I solicited input. I have also answered most all of you directly. The comments centered primarily around three issues - reproducing the "The Keystone" on CDs, "The Keystone" reprints and the management of the Lewistown Station and archives. 1. "The Keystone" on CDs - During the May 2000 BoD meeting a test run of "The Keystone" on CDs was approved in principle. I'm sure this will be discussed again and we will get an update. 2. Reprinting the "The Keystone" - This is another project that was previously approved and in fact has begun. A limited run of the 1973 edition (Vol. 6, Nrs. 1-4) has been reproduced and is for sale from Dick Adams. See the Autumn 2000 edition specifically "The Interchange" inside back cover for details. The success of this project will no doubt be discussed as will any plans for future releases. 3. As most of you probably already know the biggest single item mentioned was the management of the Lewistown Station and archives. This has been an issue almost since day one when the society took ownership of the building with people on both sides of the fence. Although grouped together and interrelated they are two different issues - The Building and The Archives. For example, in a simplistic listing of alternatives if we keep the archives we need a building, if we don't keep the archives we don't really need a building. I have my own opinions which I will offer at the meeting. However, I am not going to offer any comments on this subject here other than what I have already stated. There was a fourth issue expressed by only a few people but an important one, perhaps the most important of all. At the present time I would say the society essentially serves four markets. Former PRR employes, railroad historians, railfans, and railroad modelers. (Obviously some people like myself fall into all categories or at least a multiple). In the future those of us who served with the PRR will be gone, so one market will disappear. I would venture to say that the true rail historian is a relatively small market, which leaves us with the railfan and the railroad modeler. Concern was expressed that with the lack of information available from the society specifically addressing subjects related to or applicable to modeling (i.e., articles on locomotives, rolling stock, structures, signals, right-of-way standards, painting and lettering standards, etc.) that market will fall off to the detriment of the society. Realize, however, that the articles come from the membership not an editorial staff (which in reality is one person). So regardless of the eagerness of the leadership to help fill that perceived void it is the membership itself that brings it to fruition. Thanx. Al -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eGroups eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/17/_/586931/_/973130359/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [CYBER] PRRT&HS BoD Meeting Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:54:34 -0500 Thank you for all of the input to my original request for concerns to be aired at the PRRT&HS Nov. BoD meeting. I have printed out 30 sets of comments and comments to comments, some of which were sent to me directly others sent to the various lists from whence I solicited input. I have also answered most all of you directly. The comments centered primarily around three issues - reproducing the "The Keystone" on CDs, "The Keystone" reprints and the management of the Lewistown Station and archives. 1. "The Keystone" on CDs - During the May 2000 BoD meeting a test run of "The Keystone" on CDs was approved in principle. I'm sure this will be discussed again and we will get an update. 2. Reprinting the "The Keystone" - This is another project that was previously approved and in fact has begun. A limited run of the 1973 edition (Vol. 6, Nrs. 1-4) has been reproduced and is for sale from Dick Adams. See the Autumn 2000 edition specifically "The Interchange" inside back cover for details. The success of this project will no doubt be discussed as will any plans for future releases. 3. As most of you probably already know the biggest single item mentioned was the management of the Lewistown Station and archives. This has been an issue almost since day one when the society took ownership of the building with people on both sides of the fence. Although grouped together and interrelated they are two different issues - The Building and The Archives. For example, in a simplistic listing of alternatives if we keep the archives we need a building, if we don't keep the archives we don't really need a building. I have my own opinions which I will offer at the meeting. However, I am not going to offer any comments on this subject here other than what I have already stated. There was a fourth issue expressed by only a few people but an important one, perhaps the most important of all. At the present time I would say the society essentially serves four markets. Former PRR employes, railroad historians, railfans, and railroad modelers. (Obviously some people like myself fall into all categories or at least a multiple). In the future those of us who served with the PRR will be gone, so one market will disappear. I would venture to say that the true rail historian is a relatively small market, which leaves us with the railfan and the railroad modeler. Concern was expressed that with the lack of information available from the society specifically addressing subjects related to or applicable to modeling (i.e., articles on locomotives, rolling stock, structures, signals, right-of-way standards, painting and lettering standards, etc.) that market will fall off to the detriment of the society. Realize, however, that the articles come from the membership not an editorial staff (which in reality is one person). So regardless of the eagerness of the leadership to help fill that perceived void it is the membership itself that brings it to fruition. Thanx. Al ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS BoD Meeting Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:54:34 -0500 Thank you for all of the input to my original request for concerns to be aired at the PRRT&HS Nov. BoD meeting. I have printed out 30 sets of comments and comments to comments, some of which were sent to me directly others sent to the various lists from whence I solicited input. I have also answered most all of you directly. The comments centered primarily around three issues - reproducing the "The Keystone" on CDs, "The Keystone" reprints and the management of the Lewistown Station and archives. 1. "The Keystone" on CDs - During the May 2000 BoD meeting a test run of "The Keystone" on CDs was approved in principle. I'm sure this will be discussed again and we will get an update. 2. Reprinting the "The Keystone" - This is another project that was previously approved and in fact has begun. A limited run of the 1973 edition (Vol. 6, Nrs. 1-4) has been reproduced and is for sale from Dick Adams. See the Autumn 2000 edition specifically "The Interchange" inside back cover for details. The success of this project will no doubt be discussed as will any plans for future releases. 3. As most of you probably already know the biggest single item mentioned was the management of the Lewistown Station and archives. This has been an issue almost since day one when the society took ownership of the building with people on both sides of the fence. Although grouped together and interrelated they are two different issues - The Building and The Archives. For example, in a simplistic listing of alternatives if we keep the archives we need a building, if we don't keep the archives we don't really need a building. I have my own opinions which I will offer at the meeting. However, I am not going to offer any comments on this subject here other than what I have already stated. There was a fourth issue expressed by only a few people but an important one, perhaps the most important of all. At the present time I would say the society essentially serves four markets. Former PRR employes, railroad historians, railfans, and railroad modelers. (Obviously some people like myself fall into all categories or at least a multiple). In the future those of us who served with the PRR will be gone, so one market will disappear. I would venture to say that the true rail historian is a relatively small market, which leaves us with the railfan and the railroad modeler. Concern was expressed that with the lack of information available from the society specifically addressing subjects related to or applicable to modeling (i.e., articles on locomotives, rolling stock, structures, signals, right-of-way standards, painting and lettering standards, etc.) that market will fall off to the detriment of the society. Realize, however, that the articles come from the membership not an editorial staff (which in reality is one person). So regardless of the eagerness of the leadership to help fill that perceived void it is the membership itself that brings it to fruition. Thanx. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 20:10:52 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] LL undecorated warning From: "William J. Ayers" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3055954253_319324_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeremy, et al, I have LL P2K E-8s in Tuscan and the first run GP7 which appears to be black. I have toyed with the idea of repainting them in DGLE. In light of your expensive surprise, do you have any experience or advice in repainting them? Some time ago, I striped and repainted two Atlas Classic GP7s (originally NKP dress) and was unable to remove all the factory paint. At the time I didn't know who to ask other than Marty McGuirk at MR who said that Chinese factory paint seems to behave differently than what we are used to, and said to remove as much as possible and paint as usual, which I did. So far, the paint (Scalecoat 2) is holding up well with no problems. Bill Ayers Lake City, IA > Hello all, > > Sorry about the multiple posts but I am not sure how many people knew this. > While working on a Life Like Proto 2000 undecorated SD60 I had fully > detailed the unit. Painted it up for the first coat. On the second coat > the color came out totally wrong so I stripped it in isopropyl alcohol. > When stripping the unit (undecorated mind you) the black paint on the engine > was not the only thing to come off, there is also a gray base coat applied > by LL. Because the engine was totally detailed and glued together I was > unable to salvage the shell and such. I had to spend $37 to get back all > the details lost on the previous engine. So consider this a word of > warning, when working with LL undecorated units they are not totally > undecorated, learn from my expensive mistake. By the way when on the phone > with Life Like to order the replacement stuff I let them know that they > should put a label on the undecorated units or something about this so as > not to expensively surprise anyone. I do have 2 other undecorated models in > my possession, fortunately I have not started to detail these as of yet, one > is in the alcohol right now stripping. > > Thanks for you ears, or should I say eyes. > > Jeremy Helms > Bellevue, Nebraska > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > --MS_Mac_OE_3055954253_319324_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] LL undecorated warning Jeremy, et al,

I have LL P2K E-8s in Tuscan and the first run GP7 which appears to be
black. I have toyed with the idea of repainting them in DGLE. In light of your expensive surprise, do you have any experience or advice in repainting=
them? Some time ago, I striped and repainted two Atlas Classic GP7s
(originally NKP dress) and was unable to remove all the factory paint. At the time I didn't know who to ask other than Marty McGuirk at MR who said that Chinese factory paint seems to behave differently than what we are use= d
to, and said to remove as much as possible and paint as usual, which I did.=
So far, the paint (Scalecoat 2) is holding up well with no problems.

Bill Ayers
Lake City, IA


> Hello all,
>
> Sorry about the multiple posts but I am not sure how many people knew = this.
> While working on a Life Like Proto 2000 undecorated SD60 I had fully > detailed the unit.  Painted it up for the first coat.  On th= e second coat
> the color came out totally wrong so I stripped it in isopropyl alcohol= .
> When stripping the unit (undecorated mind you) the black paint on the = engine
> was not the only thing to come off, there is also a gray base coat app= lied
> by LL.  Because the engine was totally detailed and glued togethe= r I was
> unable to salvage the shell and such.  I had to spend $37 to get = back all
> the details lost on the previous engine.  So consider this a word= of
> warning, when working with LL undecorated units they are not totally > undecorated, learn from my expensive mistake.  By the way when on= the phone
> with Life Like to order the replacement stuff I let them know that the= y
> should put a label on the undecorated units or something about this so= as
> not to expensively surprise anyone.  I do have 2 other undecorate= d models in
> my possession, fortunately I have not started to detail these as of ye= t, one
> is in the alcohol right now stripping.
>
> Thanks for you ears, or should I say eyes.
>
> Jeremy Helms
> Bellevue, Nebraska
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.htm= l.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -
> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message &q= uot;help" to
> "listserv@dsop.com".
>

 --MS_Mac_OE_3055954253_319324_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:29:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] LL undecorated warning Bill, Jeremy, You may find that using a hobby blasting booth may do the trick to remove the paint from Proto shells. I have used one on other plastic items and with good results. (Experiment at low presure is a good idea!!!) It took me 18 years to get myelf to purchase one and am glad I did. (eBay purchase last year). Stripping has become quick and easy. I know everyone will not have access to one but serious hobbiest should look into purchasing a booth. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [PM-list] Leslie and Nathan horns Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:45:09 -0500 Several weeks back someone asked about types of air horns used on early diesels. This is an exceptional web site with close up photos, front, side and rear of countless airhorns. Indispensable information to the diesel modeler. Cool audio clips too. Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Pavlovic" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [PM-list] Leslie and Nathan horns > Brian, > Try this website, they have picture of just about every horn ever manufactured, along with some of the variations that you may find. > > Ed Pavlovic > > http://ATSF.Railfan.net/airhorns/ > > Brian Banna~ wrote: > > > I was discussing with some fellow modelers the type of horn I need > > to use. The subject of Leslie horns and Nathan horns came up. I > > do not know the visual differences between them and would like to > > be educated. > > > > I started thinking about it and recall some horn clusters have long > > chimes and others have shorter chimes. What I mean is the chimes are > > physically longer than each other. A Leslie long horn is longer than > > a Nathan long horn or is it the other way around? Maybe the differences > > are something else, but I do not know. > > > > Later > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Brian Banna > > bbanna@sedona.ch.intel.com > > Chandler, AZ > > > Community email addresses: > Post message: PROTOTYPEmodeler@egroups.com > Subscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-subscribe@egroups.com > Unsubscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-unsubscribe@egroups.com > List owner: PROTOTYPEmodeler-owner@egroups.com > View pictures of list members at: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=205020&a=6787243 > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/PROTOTYPEmodeler > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 22:32:17 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Matt, > > I always enjoy seeing what Bill offers up on questions like this as I always > agree with him... > > So let me add to his list of "must haves" by adding the entire selection > printed todate from Withers Publications on the PRR Locomotive vol.1 through > 5. And I see that Dan is quiet, all that I would expect from such a modest > man. These book are informative and capture the Pennsy some of the best > Pennsy photography of the times, John D. Hahn needs special recognition by > all Pennsy Fans. I only wish Paul could contact J.J.Young,Jr. and do similar > a series with his photography, I would feel like I was dying and going to > heaven. I can't wait until Paul and Dan put together the F-Unit series. This > workhorse was as essential to the times as the Sherman tank was to General > Patton... A favorite subject of mine as well an ongoing research project that > I hope never ends. > > Greg Martin Thanks Greg. I completely forgot the Withers books (except for one) and couldn't agree more with including them. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 23:15:34 -0500 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? Other helpful books that I haven't seen mentioned are the Carleton Pennsy Steam books and the PRRT&HS Passenger Painting and Lettering book. Bob Reid did some paperback books with rolling stock diagrams and NEC track charts. John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: Re: [PRR] LL undecorated warning Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 00:50:15 -0600 Bill, It has been my experience thus far that Isopropyl alcohol is far superior to any CHEMICAL strippers out there. My suggestion is to use 91% or higher. The 91% is available just about anywhere with the "higher" being available mainly at specialist drug stores like Kroger's or Walgreens. I have tried to use Scalecoat, brake fluid, Pine Sol and alcohol. The alcohol does the work. It has worked on newer Atlas, Kato, and Life Like predecorated units. Some have reported some problems with early release Atlas and Kato units. FYI the Kato units have stripped down to bare plastic without paint residue even left. I have been suprised. My suggestions for "stripping" tools if you can call them that would be a adult SOFT bristle toothbrush, toothpicks and straight pins. The straight pins are for very small crannies like door seams or door handles. The toothpick is good for larger door handles and weld seems. With the toothbrush I have had sme problems with anything harder than a soft bristle brush. It seems to scratch the surface some which is visible under very dark paints like DGLE and black. Also my brushes that I use are ones that are broken in (for those of you that do not get this I mean I used it to brush my teeth for 6 months to a year). This way I actually get at least one new tool for myself a year <>. Windows need to be removed prior to stripping. If glued in pull them out and purchase a replacement set OR get a laser cut set from AMB or something. Soak model (LL P2K) for 30 minutes and scrub with toothbrush. Do this 2 times and then clean up with other "tools" around details. If it is not totally gone, reaccomplish this set over. All models I have done in the alcohol have been in overnight before (I am talking LL and Kato) with no ill effects. Jeremy Helms > Jeremy, et al, > > I have LL P2K E-8s in Tuscan and the first run GP7 which appears to be > black. I have toyed with the idea of repainting them in DGLE. In light of > your expensive surprise, do you have any experience or advice in repainting > them? Some time ago, I striped and repainted two Atlas Classic GP7s > (originally NKP dress) and was unable to remove all the factory paint. At > the time I didn't know who to ask other than Marty McGuirk at MR who said > that Chinese factory paint seems to behave differently than what we are used > to, and said to remove as much as possible and paint as usual, which I did. > So far, the paint (Scalecoat 2) is holding up well with no problems. > > Bill Ayers > Lake City, IA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeff Knorek" Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 04:02:26 -0500 Since I am much more interested in the aesthetics of railroading than locomotive numbers and all that, my vote goes to _Crossroads of Commerce_. JK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 05:22:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Essential Books Some more suggestions: Centennial History (Burgess & Kennedy) -- Pennsy's view of its history Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad 1895-1968 (Bezilla) -- definitive history of the electrification And some specialized ones (if you're interested in a particular line)... Cumberland Valley Railroad (Westhaeffer) The Story of the Northern Central Railway (Gunnarsson) --Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 13:30:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Our 4th Anniversary! From: Jerry Britton It's November 2000... four years ago this month "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk" were established!!! Today, "Keystone Crossings" serves well over 6,000 pages per month, has over 40,000 records in its databases, and offers over 500MB of files! "PRR-Talk" has over 450 subscribers and a searchable archive of over 18,000 messages -- and the archive doesn't even include the first year's worth! Thank you all for making both a resounding success! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 12:33:28 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] LL undecorated warning From: "William J. Ayers" Jeremy, Gary, Thanks for the striping and repainting ideas. The hobby blasting booth sounds like a good efficient method, but right now, the Isopropyl alcohol is more within my budget. Maybe some day I will get one.... Bill > It has been my experience thus far that Isopropyl alcohol is far superior to > any CHEMICAL strippers out there. My suggestion is to use 91% or higher. > The 91% is available just about anywhere with the "higher" being available > mainly at specialist drug stores like Kroger's or Walgreens. I have tried > to use Scalecoat, brake fluid, Pine Sol and alcohol. The alcohol does the > work. > You may find that using a hobby blasting booth may do the trick to > remove the paint from Proto shells. I have used one on other plastic > items and with good results. (Experiment at low presure is a good > idea!!!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 14:21:53 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Our 4th Anniversary! And don't forget to thank the Pennsylvania RR. I doubt that a website and mailing list for the St. Johnsbury & Lamoille County RR (or the NYC for that matter) could have done this well ;-) And, oh yes, thank you Jerry. I know it has never been easy and it has not always been fun, but you have brought a valuable resource to 450 grateful subscribers and 6000 monthly visitors! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > It's November 2000... four years ago this month "Keystone Crossings" and > "PRR-Talk" were established!!! > > Today, "Keystone Crossings" serves well over 6,000 pages per month, has over > 40,000 records in its databases, and offers over 500MB of files! > > "PRR-Talk" has over 450 subscribers and a searchable archive of over 18,000 > messages -- and the archive doesn't even include the first year's worth! > > Thank you all for making both a resounding success! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:10:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LL undecorated warning --part1_39.c2d5553.2733162e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The hobby blasting booth sounds like a good efficient method, I used to have access to an industrial glass beadin booth and the only caution I would suggest is that with plastic you should take your time. there can be quite a heat build up that can distort some of the smaller parts. --part1_39.c2d5553.2733162e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The hobby blasting booth
sounds like a good efficient method,

I used to have access to an industrial glass beadin booth and the only
caution I would suggest is that with plastic you should take your time.  
there can be quite a heat build up that can distort some of the smaller parts.
 --part1_39.c2d5553.2733162e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 14:21:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Our 4th Anniversary! From: Jerry Britton On 11/2/00 2:21 PM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > And don't forget to thank the Pennsylvania RR. I doubt that a website > and mailing list for the St. Johnsbury & Lamoille County RR (or the NYC > for that matter) could have done this well ;-) Announcing the "St.Johnsbury&LamoilleCountyRR-Talk" list... just kidding! True, only a grand-daddy of a railroad would warrant this much excitement! > > And, oh yes, thank you Jerry. I know it has never been easy and it has > not always been fun, but you have brought a valuable resource to 450 > grateful subscribers and 6000 monthly visitors! > You're welcome! And "most" users understand when there is down time, and I appreciate that! It's kinda nice when one can combine hobbies, as I have. (Okay, they're not hobbies, they're addictions!) And thank you, Andy, as one of our early subscribers and one of our resident "passenger car experts". It's active subscribers that make this work for all of us, each sharing a specialty. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:13:04 EST Subject: [PRR] N5c Questions Questions from an "off lister" who I talked into an MTH "O" scale N5c caboose, a really nice plastic model, which he is 2 railing: 1) were the platforms wood planked? 2) what color, if any was planking, if present, painted 3) were the "collision posts" a standard structural shape 4) what was the size (we both think the MTH are a tad small) Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:31:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] N5c Questions Dick, I believe, and I am referring to a Conrail N5c fro a local historical Society, that no wood planking was present on the platform. Maybe when built? The Conrail N5c has steel grate tread. Most likely painted Freight Car color as well. The Steel Collision Beams on the MTH N5C should be replaced. Looks nothing like the real thing. The real post were U Channel. Interesting is that on the N5c, the Channel was faced one way and on the N8 the Channel was reversed. Off hand I can't remember which is which. I have to dig up the info if you need it. I also have 2 of the MTH N5C's and a few of the N8's. I changed over to Scale wheelsets but have yet to convert anything else. A big mistake was done on the N8 Antenna system. The possition is reversed on the model. How could they mess something like that up!!! Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Our 4th Anniversary! Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:56:15 -0500 Congratulations Jerry! Many more years to come too, I'm sure. Cos > It's November 2000... four years ago this month "Keystone Crossings" and > "PRR-Talk" were established!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:07:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Items for sale I have been asked to handle the sale of the following scale items for a friend who is involved with tinplate. I have quoted Walthers 1998 prices where available as a guide, I'm not expecting interested parties to match those prices listed, but most successful offers will be within 75-80% of the prices listed. Shipping is the responsibility of the purchaser. Offers will be handled on the basis of email date and time. First come first served. 95% of the items are still shrink wrapped, all are new in the box. Reply off list for any items of interest. Manufacturer Kit No. Guideline Price Magnuson Wischer Washer Co M523 75.00 Allen's Wrench & Mfg Co M528 75.00 Jordan Products Baggage Wagon 360-301 3.95 1926 Essex Coach 360-222 4.95 Stewart Diesel Sand,Fuel&Water Col #703 21.95 Woodland Senics Tommy's Treehouse M107 8.49 Ernie's Fruit Stand M109 7.99 Tombstones D201 4.99 Micro Engineering Groger's Grocery 70-604 11.50 Model Power Farm House #433 16.98 Grandma's House #487 16.98 Patal Church #3060 14.99 Con Cor Ma's Place #9051 11.70 California Model Co Interlocking Tower & Shed #61 12.75 DMK Fuel Oil Distributorship KH102 6.99 Walthers Don's Shoe Store 933-3000 11.98 Farmers Co-op Elevator 933-3036 24.98 Interstate Fuel & Oil 933-3006 25.98 Central Valley Fencing #1601 5.49 Pikestuff Tool & Handcar Shed #0006 2.95 Smalltown USA Madeline's Deli #6004 7.75 Helen's Country Kitchen #6012 7.75 Appliance Mart #6020 10.20 Old Indian Tobacco Shop #6014 7.75 Furniture Showroom #6015 10.70 Sally's Antiques #6010 7.75 Design Preservation Skip's Chicken & Ribs #105 8.98 Carol's Corner Cafe' #113 9.98 Carr's Parts #116 9.98 Seymour Building #121 10.98 Front St Bldg #120 9.98 Roberts Dry Goods #102 8.98 Kelly's Saloon #101 8.98 Other Corner Cafe #115 9.98 Freight Depot #107 9.98 Shultz's Garage #201 8.98 Walker Bldg #204 9.98 Laube's Linen Mill #106 9.98 C Smith Packing #203 9.98 City Cab Co #112 9.98 Cuttings Scissors Co #103 9.98 B Moore Catalog Showroom #104 9.98 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Painting Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:33:11 -0600 Hello all, I am trying to find painting data. I am attempting a PRR GP30 with trainphone antenna right now. How were these painted? I know the body was DGLE and the trucks and underframe/fuel tank were black. Where I am wondering about is the pilot faces, steps and walkway, were any or all of these black or DGLE? Thanks for any help on this one. Jeremy Helms Bellevue, Nebraska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] National B Trucks Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 06:33:39 -0500 Hi All, I am in need of drawings and photos of National "B" trucks for a brass project. You will be compensated for your efforts. Any help would be most appreciated. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 06:33:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] National B Trucks Hi All, I am in need of drawings and photos of National "B" trucks for a brass project. You will be compensated for your efforts. Any help would be most appreciated. Thank You Bill -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eGroups eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/17/_/586931/_/973254103/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sam cali" Subject: Re: [PRR] A&S Low Grade Line water station. Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:44:58 GMT >From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] A&S Low Grade Line water station. >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 15:22:47 -0500 (EST) > > Hello, Anyone have track chart for the line West of Quarryville. Found >a person with a small reservoir and granite works building on there >property just above the line.It's classic PRR design. I'm thinking it >supplied standpipes. It is located about 4 miles west of Smithville.Also >were helpers needed anywhere along the A&S ? >רררררררררThax-Mark >Lרררררררררררר Mark, Are you referring to a building that would house a pump for a water station? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 06:15:15 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] A matter of spelling Some while ago, someone commented on seeing, in a PRR document, the word "employe". I don't recall all that followed, but there seemed to be a flavor of "PRR even had it's own standard for spelling". A couple of days ago I was reading an Erie RR rule book from 1908. Surprise! The Erie had employes, and many rules telling each employe what his duties were. Turned to a B&O rule book from 1913. Same story. So, it wasn't just PRR. Went to an online 1913 dictionary. There, found "employe" defined as someone who does the bidding of another, "employee" defined as a variant of employe. The dictionary used an accent on the final "e", and that means the final "e" was to be pronounced. None of the RR books used an accent, but I suspect that that may have been to make life easier for the typesetter, not to indicate that the "e" was silent. Looked in the 1975 dictionary on my desk and found a definition for "employee or employe". (My 4th grade reading teacher told me that in a dictionary, whatever comes first is the preferred form.) So, I'm sure that "employe" was not peculiar to RR's. Apparently our grandparents thought "employe" was the correct spelling, and probably viewed "employee" as another sign that the educational system was going to the dogs. Sure enough, the education system went there, and we grew up writing "employee". That does not rule out the possibility that the older spelling hung on longer at the PRR than in other places, or was used longer by railroads than other enterprises. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:27:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] A matter of spelling From: Jerry Britton On 11/3/00 9:15 AM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > Some while ago, someone commented on seeing, in a PRR > document, the word "employe". I don't recall all that > followed, but there seemed to be a flavor of "PRR even > had it's own standard for spelling". > My wife worked for GM from 1987 to 1992. We still receive 401K reports. To this day, GM uses "employe". --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:38:37 EST From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRRH&TS As I understand it, the fireproof vaults etc. have been installed at Lewistown. It would seem to be that a working arrangement with the PA Historical and Museum Commission via the Strassburg Museum would be best for all. The PRRT&HS can exchange use of the Lewistown Station for professional archivists time. The Lewistown Station would become a satelite site for Strassburg. The agreement could allow com-mingling of the collections and the PRR material at Strassburg moved to Lewistown to consolidate all the PRR material. There is a need to involve politicians -- particular the State Representative and Senator who represent Lewistown in this matter. Further, grants are available for Pennsylvania through the Commission for maintaining such collections. But someone with an indepth knowledge of the collection needs to make the application. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:52:10 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] A&S Low Grade Line water station. Mark wrote: > Hello, Anyone have track chart for the line West of Quarryville. Found >a person with a small reservoir and granite works building on there >property just above the line.It's classic PRR design. I'm thinking it >supplied standpipes. It is located about 4 miles west of Smithville.Also >were helpers needed anywhere along the A&S ? Hi Mark, I think I was contacted by the same folks, and it sure sounds like they have an interesting "artifact" on their property. Track charts of the A&S are available on Jerry's site (circa 1945) at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/downloads/tc_phil_1945.pdf I was unable to find any standpipe section marked in the area around Smithville to Martic Forge, but then maybe I don't know what I'm looking for! Note that if the standpipes were retained after electrification, the catenary was usually raised to reduce the safety hazard, and the section was marked "Standpipe" and "High Wire". Since SMITH represents the only "passing" siding on the A&S between Atglen and Columbia, and it is approximately halfway between these two, it would be a logical place for standpipes to have been placed. It is likely that these were removed during electrification. Helpers were commonly used on the A&S eastbound out of Columbia and both east and westbound out of Thorndale. Prior to electrification, Columbia maintained a reasonable sized locomotive service facility and crews were based there. Following electrification, P-5a motors were usually used as helpers, and one or more could be found in Columbia, waiting to shove trains up out of the Susquehanna River valley. The FF-2 motors (ex GN Y-1) were also used in this service during their brief tenure on the PRR. Photos of this activity abound. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:07:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] A&S Low Grade Line water station. Mark, Bruce, Interesting story on this resivour. This has nothing to do with your thread but there is one located in the town of Homewood Jct, Pa. as well. I always seen a large pond there and one day my buddy told me what it was. Seems the resivour (PRR Built) supplied the Loco Stand pipes that were located roughout the Wye. Homewood Jct. was the point where the Ft Wayne Main continued west and the Kopple Secondary to Sharon Pa. branched off. (34 miles west of Pittsburgh). After the water plugs were taken out of service the resivour was used for a popular fishing hole. To this day water is still at a high level. ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] A matter of spelling Date: Fri, 3 Nov 100 11:06:17 -0500 (EST) robert netzlof scribit: > > Went to an online 1913 dictionary. There, found > "employe" defined as someone who does the bidding of > another, "employee" defined as a variant of employe. Most intriguing. It would be interesting to compare against other dictionaries of the day. Lest we all forget: dictionaries are as much a product of OPINION -- of their editors, that is -- as any other piece of writing. The dictionary editor is stating what he THINKS is the best way for a word to be used and spelled, based on his experience. And remember that the concept of what the standard is for any given language is quite vague and fluid: the standard form of the language is that used by literate people. Arguments cannot be settled by a single look at a single dictionary. Noah Webster tried to simplify the spelling of American English, and his efforts were patially successful. But even " 'muriken " was left with a whole slew of words whose spellings were far from phonetic. I suspect that the preference of most literate users of English for the form "employee" may have been due to the more obvious correlation between the terminal "ee" and the terminal vowel sound of that word. If Bob's finding in the old dictionary is borne out by further research, then this alone may be the explanation for use by the PRR and other RRs of the form "employe". On the other hand, it could simply be an expression on the part of the railroads of some combination of chauvinism and reality, with their preference for the French masculine form employe' over the French feminine form employe'e. Begging that y'all excuse the lack of a true accent aigu on my email word processor, I remain, Sincerely yours, Mark P.S. Anyone who doubts that chauvinism _could_ have been a reason is invited to read the portions of _The Wreck of the Penn Central_ that describe how the PRR's hierarchy systematically excluded people from certain positions based on ethnicity and religion. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:19:32 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] A matter of spelling, now going awry I must protest against this Gross Violation of the Tenets of This Group. Our Board of Volunteer Examiners, a group of Respected Dictionary Editors who together have over 9-score years of Editorial Experience find that this topic contains Speculative Material, that is, Non-fackual Opinion and as such is Not Acceptable. Our Volunteer Examiners request and require that this Tripe and Manure be discontinued At Once. A word to the wise, eh? hahahahaa. --- Mark Bej wrote: > robert netzlof scribit: > > > > Went to an online 1913 dictionary. There, found > > "employe" defined as someone who does the bidding > of > > another, "employee" defined as a variant of > employe. > > Most intriguing. > It would be interesting to compare against other > dictionaries of the day. No need, since Our Dictionary has provided The Answer. > > Lest we all forget: dictionaries are as much a > product of > OPINION -- of their editors, that is -- as any other > piece > of writing. The dictionary editor is stating what he > THINKS > is the best way for a word to be used and spelled, Not when you have a Volunteer Group of Respected Dictionary Editors screening out Tripe and Manure. hahahha > based on > his experience. And remember that the concept of > what the > standard is for any given language is quite vague > and fluid: > the standard form of the language is that used by > literate > people. Arguments cannot be settled by a single look > at a > single dictionary. Not when it's Our Dictionary, source of All Truth. Not like those so-called dictionaries you'll find posted on Certain Web Sites. I just shake my head when I see what Some People post on their so-called Web Sites. Just last week I was in Harrisburg with another Respected Dictionary Editor, doing some Serious Research at the State Archive they have there and he said the same thing. "Pete", he said (he's one of only 2 editors allowed to call me Pete), "I just shake my head when I see what Some People post on their so-called Web Sites". We just shook our heads. Oh well. hahhahaha > > Noah Webster tried to simplify the spelling of > American English, Noah was one of the finest editors I ever had the pleasure of working with. No disrespect to today's editors who no doubt do the best they can at a hard and dangerous job that Other People could not possibly do or understand, but they don't make them like Noah any more. He was one of only 3 editors allowed to call me Pete. Too many of the Old Timers have gone on to the Great Editorial Room in the sky, and that's why we all have to support Our Dictionary Society, to keep alive the Great Tradition those Great Dictionary Editors have passed to This Group to preserve and cherish and fondle and caress... ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:51:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] A matter of spelling, now going awry From: Jerry Britton On 11/3/00 12:19 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > I must protest against this Gross Violation of the > Tenets of This Group. > Oh, man, does my stomach hurt from laughing! Hope you have a strong DELETE key reflex, cause you're gonna need it when the competing Group of Volunteer Dictionary Editors responds! While humorous, please refrain from making such posts on-list. It only reopens the can of worms, which we don't need. Thank you all for your support! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:48:48 -0500 Subject: [PRR] N.J.International PRR signals for Sale Listers, I have 8 N.J.International Brass PRR Position signals for sale. If you are interested, please contact me. caseyj@mail.igateway.com I would be interested in trading for DCC (Digitrax)Decoders. Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:15:03 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain Service From: Jerry Britton Although running trailers on flats started some time before on a much smaller level, PRR began promoting it as a major service in June of 1954 (I have the announcement brochure). In November or December of 1954, the service was officially named "TrucTrain" following a contest. The announcement of the new name came in the employe(e) magazine "The Pennsy" (I have a copy of this, too). I have a few questions about TrucTrain that are prompted by a set of obviously incorrectly labeled Con Cor "1940's PRR TrucTrain 40' Trailers". First, they could not have been named "TrucTrain" in the 1940's since the name wasn't created until 1954. Second, I don't think there were 40' trailers in the 1940's. 1) When did PRR-owned/leased 40' trailers come into use for TrucTrain service? 2) When the 40' trailers came into use, did the livery still use the long diagonal stripe name across the trailer, or was the 6-7' circular disk applied to the side of the trailer? 3) As of 1954, what size PRR-owned/leased trailers were in use? I know there were 26' units initially and 30'/32' units later. When? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:54:41 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Service I believe that an issue of the Keystone covered all of that. What I'm wondering is when Bowser is going to realize that the flat car they produce is exactly the one the PRR used in the first TrucTrain Service. A few extra castings (safety rail, tire tacks, chain tiedowns, etc) and a correct PRR trailer would turn that kit into a big winner! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > Although running trailers on flats started some time before on a much > smaller level, PRR began promoting it as a major service in June of 1954 (I > have the announcement brochure). > > In November or December of 1954, the service was officially named > "TrucTrain" following a contest. The announcement of the new name came in > the employe(e) magazine "The Pennsy" (I have a copy of this, too). > > I have a few questions about TrucTrain that are prompted by a set of > obviously incorrectly labeled Con Cor "1940's PRR TrucTrain 40' Trailers". > First, they could not have been named "TrucTrain" in the 1940's since the > name wasn't created until 1954. Second, I don't think there were 40' > trailers in the 1940's. > > 1) When did PRR-owned/leased 40' trailers come into use for TrucTrain > service? > > 2) When the 40' trailers came into use, did the livery still use the long > diagonal stripe name across the trailer, or was the 6-7' circular disk > applied to the side of the trailer? > > 3) As of 1954, what size PRR-owned/leased trailers were in use? I know there > were 26' units initially and 30'/32' units later. When? > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:46:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Service From: Jerry Britton On 11/3/00 3:54 PM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > I believe that an issue of the Keystone covered all of that. What I'm > wondering is when Bowser is going to realize that the flat car they > produce is exactly the one the PRR used in the first TrucTrain Service. > A few extra castings (safety rail, tire tacks, chain tiedowns, etc) and > a correct PRR trailer would turn that kit into a big winner! > I agree... but I need 'em in N scale now!!! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Service Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:39:31 -0500 Jerry and list: As an employe of the PRR traffic department from May 1962 to the merger and beyond, recall that TrucTrain was begun with 35 foot trailers, but had switched almost entirely to 40 footers by 1965. All these trailers used the circular logo riveted to the trailer as they were all ribbed side trailers. The only trailers with the diagonal "Pennsylvania" on them were used locally for the delivery of LCL traffic and were 24 foot trailers dating from the 1930's and 1940's. After the merger, many a basement "rec" room was decorated with the circular signs in Philadelphia. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 3:15 PM Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain Service > Although running trailers on flats started some time before on a much > smaller level, PRR began promoting it as a major service in June of 1954 (I > have the announcement brochure). > > In November or December of 1954, the service was officially named > "TrucTrain" following a contest. The announcement of the new name came in > the employe(e) magazine "The Pennsy" (I have a copy of this, too). > > I have a few questions about TrucTrain that are prompted by a set of > obviously incorrectly labeled Con Cor "1940's PRR TrucTrain 40' Trailers". > First, they could not have been named "TrucTrain" in the 1940's since the > name wasn't created until 1954. Second, I don't think there were 40' > trailers in the 1940's. > > 1) When did PRR-owned/leased 40' trailers come into use for TrucTrain > service? > > 2) When the 40' trailers came into use, did the livery still use the long > diagonal stripe name across the trailer, or was the 6-7' circular disk > applied to the side of the trailer? > > 3) As of 1954, what size PRR-owned/leased trailers were in use? I know there > were 26' units initially and 30'/32' units later. When? > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:42:48 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] unfinished tunnel in Cincinnati? Does anyone know anything about the Deer Creek tunnel? (over and above this: http://web.utk.edu/~snake1/tunnels/penn.html) As far as PRR involvement nothing interesting on their page other than that they were involved, but even that is news to me. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:26:40 -0600 (CST) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS OK Yuns. It is time to pony up. I received my membership renewal from the PRRT&HS today. They have added a new category of membership of $50 and over. There is also a note at the bottom asking for additional funds for support of the station. If we really care about the society and what it is trying to do, we will include more then just the minimum individual membership. 'Nuff said. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:42:35 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Service Andy and List: After Lee English can be convinced to due a TrucTrain flat, someone will have to work on Dick Meyer to re-issue his HC-563 PRR TrucTrain flat car set as a regular production run decal. I had some dialog with him about a year ago on this subject and he is not really inclined to re-run this set; too many colors, too much handling. He has an Alps printer now for custom decal sets but estimates he would have to charge about $11.00 per HO set, maybe less if ordered in quantity ( I read this to be about 50 sets). Frank Brua Andy Miller wrote: > I believe that an issue of the Keystone covered all of that. What I'm > wondering is when Bowser is going to realize that the flat car they > produce is exactly the one the PRR used in the first TrucTrain Service. > A few extra castings (safety rail, tire tacks, chain tiedowns, etc) and > a correct PRR trailer would turn that kit into a big winner! > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > > Although running trailers on flats started some time before on a much > > smaller level, PRR began promoting it as a major service in June of 1954 (I > > have the announcement brochure). > > > > In November or December of 1954, the service was officially named > > "TrucTrain" following a contest. The announcement of the new name came in > > the employe(e) magazine "The Pennsy" (I have a copy of this, too). > > > > I have a few questions about TrucTrain that are prompted by a set of > > obviously incorrectly labeled Con Cor "1940's PRR TrucTrain 40' Trailers". > > First, they could not have been named "TrucTrain" in the 1940's since the > > name wasn't created until 1954. Second, I don't think there were 40' > > trailers in the 1940's. > > > > 1) When did PRR-owned/leased 40' trailers come into use for TrucTrain > > service? > > > > 2) When the 40' trailers came into use, did the livery still use the long > > diagonal stripe name across the trailer, or was the 6-7' circular disk > > applied to the side of the trailer? > > > > 3) As of 1954, what size PRR-owned/leased trailers were in use? I know there > > were 26' units initially and 30'/32' units later. When? > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > Free serving of railroad web sites > > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:06:43 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] unfinished tunnel in Cincinnati? --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > Does anyone know anything about the Deer Creek > tunnel? (over and above > this: http://web.utk.edu/~snake1/tunnels/penn.html) > From: The Nickel Plate Story John A. Rehor Kalmbach 1965 pp 129, 131-132 The concept of the narrow-gauge trunk system was born during the memorable Narrow Gauge Convention held at Cincinnati's Grand Hotel during July 1878. For several years afterward the Queen City was looked upon as the capital of the narrow-gauge world, and it is not surprising that it boasted no fewer than five 3-foot gauge roads. Not the least of these was the Cincinnati Northern*, successor to the Miami Valley Narrow Gauge Railway. The latter was organized on Nov. 9, 1874 and was projected northeast 55 miles from Cincinnati to Lebanon and Xenia. * Footnote from pg 129: Not to be confused with the standard gauge Cincinnati Northern extending from Cincinnati to Jackson, MI The project lay dormant until Mar. 1880 when the road was sold at sheriff's sale to who organized the Cincinnati Northern Railway on June 8, 1880. Between Norwood and the basin of Cincinnati, there is a rather formidable ridge known as Walnut Hills. Early railroads entering Cincinnati from the north skirted the ridge by way of the valleys of the Little Miami and Mill Creek. Their termini were separated and ill suited to the central part of the city. The Miami Valley, however, had planned to locate its depot in the heart of the city. Its promoters came into possession of a 15-acre site on Court St. east of Broadway, a partly completed tunnel through Walnut Hills, and a right of way connecting them. Walnut Hills or Deer Creek tunnel was originally engineered and partly built by Erasmus Gest as part of a proposed short line between Cincinnati and Dayton. Including walled and covered approaches, the tunnel was to have been 10,011 feet long, by far the longest tunnel project ever undertaken in Ohio. Between 1852 and 1855, 3336 feet of the tunnel was bored at the two portals and from three deep shafts sunk from the top of Walnut Hills. Work on the project was abandoned in 1855 with the failure of Gest's Dayton & Cincinnati Railroad, but in 1871 a group of local promoters revived it as the Cincinnati Railway Tunnel Co. ... Very little work was accomplished before the enterprise collapsed in the 1873 panic. The Cincinati Northern came into possession of the Court Street property and finally fulfilled the long-cherished dream of building a depot there. ...Cincinnnati Northern ignored the abandoned tunnel and settled for a shallow 1500-foot bore through the top of Walnut Hills. In place of Gest's sustained .75% northbound grade, the CN climbed the south face...at a fierce rate of 3.4%. There was also a 2% ascent to the tunnel from the north. Dispite several proposals to complete the old Gest tunnel, no further work was ever done on it. >From pg 144 The Cincinnati Northern was succeeded by the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Railway on Aug. 1, 1885 CL&N eventually passed under control of the Pensylvania Railroad ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] new model pictures Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:10:24 -0500 Y'all, I have begun to locate color slides of models that I have built over the years since 1981 and had published in the several model railroad magazines. A friend is scanning these slides and e-mailing them to me one at a time. I now have 26 pictures of several of my models ready to view at my Photopoint website. Included are diesels representing the Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania, Chicago River & Indiana, Union Pacific, Colombia Newberry & Laurens, Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard Air Line, Southern, and Norfolk & Western. I will be adding about 5 times this many pictures as they are scanned and forwarded to me. I think that you will like these models. I really love the LV GP38-2! 8~) Click on: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=205020&a=9740832 Jim Six Madison Village, Ohio Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=205020 Over 60,000 visitors and more than 1100 pictures and growing . . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:12:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] A matter of spelling So does all this mean that they had lots of employes in Pittsburg? Sorry, couldn't resist that one! Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:16:38 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Archives, Lewistown, and MONEY From: Michael Allen As this topic has come up on both of these lists I am going to only write one set of comments. If you have read this on the other list or are simply tired of the topic I will not be insulted at all if you simply move on. A significant portion of my living is made doing historical research concerning railroads. Some of it is as mundane as determining the historical accident rates on a piece of track and it ranges up to having had to trace some of the corporate real estate holdings of the PC back to the Newcastle and Frenchwomen Turnpike Co. I spent somewhere between a third and a half of my waking hours over a several year period commuting between the Penn-Central deed room at Morgan Lewis and the map files at Day & Zimmerman in Philadelphia working on the still somewhat unanswered "who actually owns what?" questions for the Reorganization Court. [Yes, I do have one of the "King of the Road" paperweights.] Much of our current work is for law firms doing property litigation, some is for the property owners. Very little, at least very little that gets paid for, is done for simply for the enjoyment of the knowledge, which is why I sometimes envy guys likes Bill Withun, Chris Baer at the Hagely, and Dave Pfieffer at the Archives. Believe me, I know the value of records such as those stashed in Lewistown. I am not a member of the PRRH&TS and I admit that I probably should be, along with the similar groups for every carrier in the east and midwest that anybody ever heard of. The problem for me is a simple one of the allocation of resources, both monetary and temporal. How many Professional Associations and Historical Societies I can afford to join and give the appropriate amount of time to. When I, either personally or as the principal of a consulting firm use a resource provided by any society in which I or my researcher do not hold membership, I either purchase it outright or make a donation to defray the cost. Fortunately, because I am not a member, my view here is not skewed by organizational politics. I would like to see both the station and the archives preserved and think that the people responsible for things going this far should be commended for the fact that both still exist, even if there is some dissension with in the organization about the manner in which the archives are currently being managed. I would like to see them properly cataloged and stored, and made accessible. If, as a nonmember, I were to use the resources at Lewistown for some for profit making research I would certainly expect to pay a reasonable access fee. If I were to become a member and use the resources in the same manner I would certainly make an additional contribution to the maintenance of the collection for the simple reason that I was benefiting financially from access to it. Somebody suggested budgeting $20,000.00 for an archivist at Lewistown. If this was intended as a full-time position that $20,000.00 works out to $10.00 per hour, [cash under the table] with no benefits and an unpaid two week vacation. It does not cover any of the costs of having an employee such as employer's share of Social Security, workman's comp et cetera, nor does it cover the material cost [computers, boxes, file folders, shelving, ad nauseam] of cataloging and storing the archives. I bill casual help, meaning college students working part-time at least $25.00 per hour [plus expenses - the Hagely is an hour and a half from here and the National Archives are about three so I'd better be paying time and mileage.]. Of that the person will probably net about $12.00 to $15.00 and I will be lucky if I make any profit out of their time. Since their job is to provide the raw material for my final product the profit is in the billings for my time. An associate, meaning someone with a degree and enough knowledge to make their own decisions about how to do something and who can work on a particular job more or less full time on their own will be billed at least $60.00 an hour. I'm pulling employer costs and some profit out of that so figure that their pretax gross will about half that. My guess is that at a bare minimum Lewistown would need a full time archivist and some part time help. My budget figures, including employer costs, would be about $75,000 for the archivist and another $50,000. for the part time help. Some of the part-time help could certainly be volunteer but they require a certain amount of training, supervision, and insurance so there is a cost here too. This puts the personnel cost of cataloging the collection at around $125,000.00 to $150,000.00 per year. With the 5,000 members cited in one post this would be a surcharge of $30.00 per year. Based on the 3,000 member figure in another post the surcharge would be $50.00 per year. These numbers are on par with membership fees at various museums and libraries and would be downright cheap compared to some. [Firestone Library at Princeton charges the nonaffiliated over $300.00 per year.] This of course assumes that all of the membership will pay the surcharge. There would probably be some additional revenue available from "corporate memberships" from firms such as mine but I doubt that we could sustain such a project independently of the various consulting contracts which require the use of the information. I know I couldn't. I have occasionally made deals such as "If you let us dig through your boxes of records and copy what we need we will put them in some kind of order for you." This is when my client needs the information badly enough to pay for the time involved to do it right. While this may sound good it is really an invitation to disaster since everybody will have a different vision of what should be and the searchers don't necessarily have the motivation to protect the material. It costs me A LOT to do that right so I need a deep pockets client. This hasn't even touched on the infrastructure costs. While I have seen the Lewistown station in passing I am simply not familiar enough with it to even begin to comment on what might be needed. I won't hazard a guess as to what the needs are in storage space construction, climate control, research space, document restoration, etc except that they will be substantial. The bottom line is that this is an expensive project over several years, especially if done by an essentially volunteer organization such as the PRRH&TS. Would I join the society if the archives were usable as a professional resource? Yes. Will I join if the resources become useful for a personal project? Yes, certainly and probably quite quickly soon. Would I make a corporate donation of some type? Probably, The amount would simply depend on how useful they were to me. Is the out-of-the-way location in Lewistown a factor in their utility? Yes, but if I need to go or send somebody to Pittsburgh I can certainly go or send somebody to Lewistown. Do the forgoing comments apply only to the PRRH&TS? No, they apply to every volunteer/fraternal organization which maintains such a collection. Side note specifically for Mr. Buchan - If back issues of THE KEYSTONE were available on CD-ROM that would militate strongly toward your gaining an additional member. I thank you for your indulgence, Michael E. Allen meallen@juno.com Managing Partner, W.R. Allen Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net 68 Magnolia Lane Telephone 609-683-0356 Princeton, NJ 08540 Telecopier 609-683-0192 _____________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Management Services ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "gregory" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:25:17 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C04630.6177F580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In would like to see the Lewistown Station and the archives preserved at = Lewistown. The idea of sending it to strasburg does not sound like a = good idea. The PRR museum has extensive archives already. Has anyone one = been able to access information there? If they recieve more information, will there not be a tendency to get = rid of somethings and save others do to a lack of space? What control = would the society have over the information once it is donated....NONE!=20 Because things are moving slowly on at Lewistown is no reason to loose = heart. Such stirring we hear now can be a rallying point to get things = done rather than to quit. As a member and from afar, I have seen a lot = of progress done on the station. It may be slow by some people standards = but it is still progress. It would be a shame to see all the volunteer = efforts go for nothing. There are things that can be done. There are = many ways to raise moneys. Other societys have many ways of raising = funds. The N&W sells many books, models, slides, etc. through its = commissary. I believe the society can pay for itself and also raise = donations to get things done.=20 I think the K4 restoration project should serve as an example to us. = Just when many were ready to give up on her and the moneys seem like = they would never come, along came funding that will assure her = restoration. Sometimes things come slowly. We have nothing to loose by = keeping the station and the archives. We have both to loose by giving = them away. In this situation once the decision is made to give up you = can't go back! Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Special interest Renovo Yards ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C04630.6177F580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In would like to see the Lewistown = Station and the=20 archives preserved at Lewistown. The idea of sending it to strasburg = does not=20 sound like a good idea. The PRR museum has extensive archives already. = Has=20 anyone one been able to access information there?
If they recieve more information, will = there not be=20 a tendency to get rid of somethings and save others do to a lack of = space? What=20 control would the society have over the information once it is = donated....NONE!=20
Because things are moving slowly on at = Lewistown is=20 no reason to loose heart. Such stirring we hear now can be a rallying = point to=20 get things done rather than to quit. As a member and from afar, I have = seen a=20 lot of progress done on the station. It may be slow by some people = standards but=20 it is still progress. It would be a shame to see all the volunteer = efforts go=20 for nothing. There are things that can be done. There are many ways to = raise=20 moneys. Other societys have many ways of raising funds. The N&W = sells many=20 books, models, slides, etc. through its commissary. I believe the = society can=20 pay for itself and also raise donations to get things done. =
 I think the K4 restoration = project should=20 serve as an example to us. Just when many were ready to give up on her = and the=20 moneys seem like they would never come, along came funding that will = assure her=20 restoration. Sometimes things come slowly. We have nothing to loose by = keeping=20 the station and the archives. We have both to loose by giving them away. = In this=20 situation once the decision is made to give up you can't go = back!
 
Greg Stone
PRRT&HS member
Special interest Renovo=20 Yards
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C04630.6177F580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:12:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Fw: Archives, Lewistown, and MONEY minor correction From: Michael Allen Proffessor Allen stands duley chastised. With a correction which my spellchecker made REMOVED the fourth line of the the third paragragh should read "...Newcastle and Frenchtowne Turnpike..." and a couple of other such glitches are coorected below. As this topic has come up on both of these lists I am going to only write one set of comments. If you have read this on the other list or are simply tired of the topic I will not be insulted at all if you simply move on. A significant portion of my living is made doing historical research concerning railroads. Some of it is as mundane as determining the historical accident rates on a piece of track and it ranges up to having had to trace some of the corporate real estate holdings of the PC back to the Newcastle and Frenchtowne Turnpike Co. I spent somewhere between a third and a half of my waking hours over a several year period commuting between the Penn-Central deed room at Morgan Lewis and the map files at Day & Zimmerman in Philadelphia working on the still somewhat unanswered "who actually owns what?" questions for the Reorganization Court. [Yes, I do have one of the "King of the Road" paperweights.] Much of our current work is for law firms doing property litigation, some is for the property owners. Very little, at least very little that gets paid for, is done for simply for the enjoyment of the knowledge, which is why I sometimes envy guys likes Bill Withun, Chris Baer at the Hagely, and Dave Pfieffer at the Archives. Believe me, I know the value of records such as those stashed in Lewistown. I am not a member of the PRRH&TS and I admit that I probably should be, along with the similar groups for every carrier in the east and midwest that anybody ever heard of. The problem for me is a simple one of the allocation of resources, both monetary and temporal. How many Professional Associations and Historical Societies I can afford to join and give the appropriate amount of time to. When I, either personally or as the principal of a consulting firm use a resource provided by any society in which I or my researcher do not hold membership, I either purchase it outright or make a donation to defray the cost. Fortunately, because I am not a member, my view here is not skewed by organizational politics. I would like to see both the station and the archives preserved and think that the people responsible for things going this far should be commended for the fact that both still exist, even if there is some dissension with in the organization about the manner in which the archives are currently being managed. I would like to see them properly cataloged and stored, and made accessible. If, as a nonmember, I were to use the resources at Lewistown for some for profit making research I would certainly expect to pay a reasonable access fee. If I were to become a member and use the resources in the same manner I would certainly make an additional contribution to the maintenance of the collection for the simple reason that I was benefiting financially from access to it. Somebody suggested budgeting $20,000.00 for an archivist at Lewistown. If this was intended as a full-time position that $20,000.00 works out to $10.00 per hour, [cash under the table] with no benefits and an unpaid two week vacation. It does not cover any of the costs of having an employee such as employer's share of Social Security, workman's comp et cetera, nor does it cover the material cost [computers, boxes, file folders, shelving, ad nauseam] of cataloging and storing the archives. I bill casual help, meaning college students working part-time at at least $25.00 per hour [plus expenses - the Hagely is an hour and a half from here and the National Archives are about three so I'd better be paying time and mileage.]. Of that the person will probably net about $12.00 to $15.00 and I will be lucky if I make any profit out of their time. Since their job is to provide the raw material for my final product the profit is in the billings for my time. An associate, meaning someone with a degree and enough knowledge to make their own decisions about how to do something and who can work on a particular job more or less full time on their own will be billed at at least $60.00 an hour. I'm pulling employer costs and some profit out of that so figure that their pretax gross will about half that. My guess is that at a bare minimum Lewistown would need a full time archivist and some part time help. My budget figures, including employer costs, would be about $75,000 for the archivist and another $50,000. for the part time help. Some of the part-time help could certainly be volunteer but they require a certain amount of training, supervision, and insurance so there is a cost here too. This puts the personnel cost of cataloging the collection at around $125,000.00 to $150,000.00 per year. With the 5,000 members cited in one post this would be a surcharge of $30.00 per year. Based on the 3,000 member figure in another post the surcharge would be $50.00 per year. These numbers are on par with membership fees at various museums and libraries and would be downright cheap compared to some. [Firestone Library at Princeton charges the nonaffiliated over $300.00 per year.] This of course assumes that all of the membership will pay the surcharge. There would probably be some additional revenue available from "corporate memberships" from firms such as mine but I doubt that we could sustain such a project independently of the various consulting contracts which require the use of the information. I know I couldn't. I have occasionally made deals such as "If you let us dig through your boxes of records and copy what we need we will put them in some kind of order for you." This is when my client needs the information badly enough to pay for the time involved to do it right. While this may sound good it is really an invitation to disaster since everybody will have a different vision of what should be and the searchers don't necessarily have the motivation to protect the material. It costs me A LOT to do that right so I need a deep pockets client. This hasn't even touched on the infrastructure costs. While I have seen the Lewistown station in passing I am simply not familiar enough with it to even begin to comment on what might be needed. I won't hazard a guess as to what the needs are in storage space construction, climate control, research space, document restoration, etc except that they will be substantial. The bottom line is that this is an expensive project over several years, especially if done by an essentially volunteer organization such as the PRRH&TS. Would I join the society if the archives were usable as a professional resource? Yes. Will I join if the resources become useful for a personal project? Yes, certainly and probably quite quickly soon. Would I make a corporate donation of some type? Probably, The amount would simply depend on how useful they were to me. Is the out-of-the-way location in Lewistown a factor in their utility? Yes, but if I need to go or send somebody to Pittsburgh I can certainly go or send somebody to Lewistown. Do the forgoing comments apply only to the PRRH&TS? No, they apply to every volunteer/fraternal organization which maintains such a collection. Side note specifically for Mr. Buchan - If back issues of THE KEYSTONE were available on CD-ROM that would militate strongly toward your gaining an additional member. I thank you for your indulgence, Michael E. Allen meallen@juno.com Managing Partner, W.R. Allen Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net 68 Magnolia Lane Telephone 609-683-0356 Princeton, NJ 08540 Telecopier 609-683-0192 _____________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Management Services ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 12:12:39 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] unfinished tunnel in Cincinnati? To all, Sadly, the Deer Creek Tunnel is no more. Construction of Interstate 71 just north and east of Cincinnati's central business district obliterated the tunnel and most of the the CL&N south of Norwood as the highway was laidout through a cut in Walnut Hill that included the tunnel site. If you're driving along I-71, the tunnel was located in the vincinity of the Gilbert Avenue interchange, the exit to Mount Adams, the Cincy Museum of Art and Eden Park. Tom V. In a message dated Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, robert netzlof writes: << --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > Does anyone know anything about the Deer Creek > tunnel? (over and above > this: http://web.utk.edu/~snake1/tunnels/penn.html) > From: The Nickel Plate Story John A. Rehor Kalmbach 1965 pp 129, 131-132 The concept of the narrow-gauge trunk system was born during the memorable Narrow Gauge Convention held at Cincinnati's Grand Hotel during July 1878. For several years afterward the Queen City was looked upon as the capital of the narrow-gauge world, and it is not surprising that it boasted no fewer than five 3-foot gauge roads. Not the least of these was the Cincinnati Northern*, successor to the Miami Valley Narrow Gauge Railway. The latter was organized on Nov. 9, 1874 and was projected northeast 55 miles from Cincinnati to Lebanon and Xenia. * Footnote from pg 129: Not to be confused with the standard gauge Cincinnati Northern extending from Cincinnati to Jackson, MI The project lay dormant until Mar. 1880 when the road was sold at sheriff's sale to who organized the Cincinnati Northern Railway on June 8, 1880. Between Norwood and the basin of Cincinnati, there is a rather formidable ridge known as Walnut Hills. Early railroads entering Cincinnati from the north skirted the ridge by way of the valleys of the Little Miami and Mill Creek. Their termini were separated and ill suited to the central part of the city. The Miami Valley, however, had planned to locate its depot in the heart of the city. Its promoters came into possession of a 15-acre site on Court St. east of Broadway, a partly completed tunnel through Walnut Hills, and a right of way connecting them. Walnut Hills or Deer Creek tunnel was originally engineered and partly built by Erasmus Gest as part of a proposed short line between Cincinnati and Dayton. Including walled and covered approaches, the tunnel was to have been 10,011 feet long, by far the longest tunnel project ever undertaken in Ohio. Between 1852 and 1855, 3336 feet of the tunnel was bored at the two portals and from three deep shafts sunk from the top of Walnut Hills. Work on the project was abandoned in 1855 with the failure of Gest's Dayton & Cincinnati Railroad, but in 1871 a group of local promoters revived it as the Cincinnati Railway Tunnel Co. ... Very little work was accomplished before the enterprise collapsed in the 1873 panic. The Cincinati Northern came into possession of the Court Street property and finally fulfilled the long-cherished dream of building a depot there. ..Cincinnnati Northern ignored the abandoned tunnel and settled for a shallow 1500-foot bore through the top of Walnut Hills. In place of Gest's sustained .75% northbound grade, the CN climbed the south face...at a fierce rate of 3.4%. There was also a 2% ascent to the tunnel from the north. Dispite several proposals to complete the old Gest tunnel, no further work was ever done on it. >From pg 144 The Cincinnati Northern was succeeded by the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern Railway on Aug. 1, 1885 CL&N eventually passed under control of the Pensylvania Railroad ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 13:56:35 -0500 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] N.J.International signals sold Listers, Thanks for the overwhelming response. The PRR position lights have been spoken for and are now sold. Regards, Nick Kulp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 14:48:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] A&S Low Grade Line water station. Sam,Bruce,list The water station West of Smithville is indeed an interesting site. What I assume is the works building is circular. Approximately 15' in diameter with a conical wooden roof. The structure is about 30' tall. It is constructed of field stone and faced with black speckled granite. There are white granite inlays 2/3 the way up the stone work. The building has a " basement ", For lack of a better word. This basement appears to have housed the plumbing. It is accessed through a 3x2 opening in the floor on the first level. t appears to have the original metal latter and door. I'm curious what the first floor was used for. The structure sits 100 yards back from the roadbed and 40 to 50 yards above. The reservoir is about 40 yards in diameter and line with slate. I was told it was 4 to 5 feet deep. It is located only 20 to 30 yards behind the works building and 20 yards above. Thats why I belive the system would have been all gravity feed. The owner had a Conral map of the area showing his lot. There was a siding located were the water station is. I'm wondering if this was a helper pocket for the West end of " SMITH " . Need to find pre 1937 ? track chart. Jerries track chart pages are not web tv friendly. רררררררררררר..Mark L .רררררררררררררר ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:23:58 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: [PRR] LEWISTOWN MEMORANDUM November 4, 2000 TO: PRRTHS MEMBERS FROM: BENNETT LEVIN RE: LEWISTOWN STATION To those of you who have seen portions of the discussion on the Internet concerning the situation at Lewistown with respect to the Station project and the Contents of the building, I would like to add my two cents. I have tried not to impose my views about the Society's business since I stepped down as its president many years ago. I had concluded that some of the directors who were serving at that time lacked vision and that control of the Society was tightly held by a very small clique that rotated "power" amongst themselves. That tight control stiffled creative thin