Dissapointment in Cresline

From: "Jeff Knorek" Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia WPA poster Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:05:08 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02CD_01C0377A.179BD400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings to all- While on the way to look for something else I came across this poster, which has what looks to me like art-deco PRR box cars: http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/cph/3f00000/3f05000/3f05600/3f05674v.jpg It is part of the The "By the People, For the People: Posters from the = WPA, 1936-1943" collection of the Prints and Photographs division of the Library of = Congress http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/wpaposters/wpahome.html Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com Conrail Detroit Shared Assets Area website: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/SAA/SAA.htm Lost and Found Railroad Railroad Photographs website: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/Found/found.htm Today's Random Railroad Image Find: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/Random/Random.htm New Brighton, PA, PRR Flyover website: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/Pgh/NewBrighton.htm CSX in Southeast Michigan website: http://members.aol.com/jsundin357/plydiam.html Railroading in Ohio website (still under construction): http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/ohio.htm All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand Enemies And when they catch you, they will kill you But first they have to catch you... From Richard Adams' _Watership Down_ ------=_NextPart_000_02CD_01C0377A.179BD400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings to all-

While on the way to look for something = else I=20 came

across this poster, which has what = looks to me like=20 art-deco

PRR box cars:

http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/cph/3f00000/3f05000/3f05600/3f05674v.jpg=

It is part of the The "By the People, = For the=20 People: Posters from the WPA, 1936-1943"

collection of the Prints and = Photographs division=20 of the Library of Congress

http://memor= y.loc.gov/ammem/wpaposters/wpahome.html

Jeff Knorek
jknorek@msen.com

Conrail Detroit Shared Assets Area = website:
http://www.msen.com/~jk= norek/SAA/SAA.htm

Lost and Found Railroad Railroad = Photographs=20 website:
http://www.msen.com= /~jknorek/Found/found.htm

Today's Random Railroad Image = Find:
http://www.msen.c= om/~jknorek/Random/Random.htm

New Brighton, PA, PRR Flyover = website:
http://www.msen= .com/~jknorek/Pgh/NewBrighton.htm

CSX in Southeast Michigan = website:
http://members.ao= l.com/jsundin357/plydiam.html

Railroading in Ohio website (still = under=20 construction):
http://www.msen.com/~jknor= ek/ohio.htm

All the world will be your = enemy, Prince of=20 a Thousand Enemies
And when they catch you, they will kill=20 you
But first they have to catch=20 you...
From Richard Adams' = _Watership Down_

------=_NextPart_000_02CD_01C0377A.179BD400-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 09:53:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! Does anyone know if these cars were run in certain areas or did they roam the system? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 10:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! Todd, List Not sure these cars worked a particular area or not. I would imagine east-west mainline? For those not familiar with the X-42, it s a 60 ft. Box Car with 2 single doors on each side. The doors are not located in the middle, but 1 door is located about 1/3rd down from the end and the other door is located 1/3rd from the other end. The car was equiped with high speed roller bearing trucks so it could be used on mail (passenger?) trains. The PRR had 10 of these X-42's. Like I said, I was surprised to see one still surviving. There is a picture of 1 in Pennsy Power 3, page 372 bottom. I am sure you can find a pic via Jerry's web page (Rob's site?) too. In model form I believe there were 2 companies that imported them. Oriental Models and Precission Scale? Nothing in plastic. You gotta kitbash it. There may have been a wood kit years ago. I picked up one an X-42 15 years back. It is made of wood. Not sure if it was a kit or a scratch built. Pretty good for $2.00!!! ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 07:41:44 -0700 Did you get any pictures of it? --greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Roundhouses on video Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 07:48:45 -0700 A few weeks ago there was conversation concerning photos of the northumberland roundhouse and crestline roundhouse. I mentioned that there was a video with a good front view of the northumberland roundhouse and turntable but I couldn't remember which one. As it turns out there are several roundhouses in this video including Harrisburg, Crestline, Altoona and Northumberland. The video is all B&W but great steam era shots of the 1930s and 1940s including footage of a rare E5. Some great shots of harrisburgh Jerry! The video is produced by Penn Valley Pictures, titled Steam in the 30's and 40's volume 7. I highly recommend it. It includes film on the building of the T1 at altoona, smoke lifter trials, and almost purely steam and steam era equipment. --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! Greg, I got there at Cooperstown Jct at early evening, about 7:15ish. It was getting pretty dark for pics. I did take a few, hopefully they come out. If they do I will post them on PRR-Talk. If not, someone from north eastern Pa or NY will have to stop by and take pics themselves. This car and the G's are just northeast of Oneonta NY. There is also a round roof Boxcar too. We didn't trek into the weeds and private property to see if it was a PRR relic. Could very well have been an X-31......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:33:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! In a message dated 10/1/00 8:58:03 AM Central Daylight Time, CENTGA@aol.com writes: << Does anyone know if these cars were run in certain areas or did they roam the system? >> The 10 cars were built for mail storage. I have or have seen photos or videos of them at Harrisburg, Chicago, and Cincinatti. I can't find the height dimensions. The only question I have is whether they were able to go in and out of Penn Station New York. Otherwise no reason I can see that they wouldn't have gone anywhere a mail storage car was needed. My question is whether they were interchanged offline. Seems to me I have seen them in Dallas or some other location, but can't get my personal memory chip to function as to the source. I picked up the brass car at a deep discount years ago and have been debating for years whether to paint it in the builder photograph scheme of tuscan with gold stripes which may or may not have ever been used on one car if ever or the more typical circle keystone of my era. No REA reporting marks that I know of, maybe because they were never used in that service?. Photo I have shows CK with lettering on door "Equipped with stanchions for loading mail". Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:10:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! Thanks Gary and Bob for the information. I was just curious as to their use on the railroad. I just bought 3 of these cars off E-bay. They were made by PSC and factory painted. Not the cheapest brass cars I've bought but the really only good model that I've seen of these. Todd ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! List, I found the internet site that decribes the group that owns this equipment. Go to http://www.lrhs.com/equipment.html Here you will see a listing of what the group actually owns. 2 GG-1's the X-42 and an X-31. Plus alot more. I have to go back and read some more......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 13:05:15 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] M.P.229 and loco oddities Hello folks... Last week,fellow lister Ken Meyer sent me copies of the PRR M.P.229 forms for years 1949 thru 1956. Since then i've been studying them over and over again. There are some things that i noticed that make sense and some not. This should keep the list busy for a little while. The first K-4s No. 1737 was shown leased to the Long Island in 1949,Next year its transfered back to the N.Y. div. where it is listed up to 1955,but is gone in 1956. No. 3750 is also so listed,but is still there in 1956. Was 1737 run at all during this time, or was it just stored? It would seem that if the PRR was still using it that it could have been saved. (remember that Pennsy Power I mentions that it was in such bad shape from storage that 3750 was used as its stand-in.) What was the real deal here? Next is H-6sb No. 2846,which today is at Strasburg. Its not listed on any of the M.P.229 forms between 1949 and 1956,yet it was saved. There are other H-6sb listed(not many),but not 2846. So where was it during this time? Northumberland? Saved H-10 no.7688 was on the Delmarva for a couple of years and then it was sent to the Middle div. where it more or less stayed until retirement.I would have guessed that a active engine would still have been listed,unless it was stored with no.s H-3 1187 and E-7 7002(8063). Here are a few other observations on the saved engines. D-16sb No.1223 as is well known was on the Delmarva Div. when selected for preservation. A-5s No.94 was on the Philadelphia Term Div. when selected,which is fitting for its service there. B-6sb No.1670 was on the Pittsburgh Region.(1956) L-1s no. 520 was on the Philadelphia Region.(1956) M-1b No. 6755 was on the Pittsburgh Region(1956) (was on the Middle Div. the year before.) I-1sa no. 4483 was on the Northern Region.(1956) E-6s no 460 is listed on the Atlantic Div.in 1954 but not listed anywhere after that.Where was it? Was it transfered to N.Y.,but not listed or did it go to Northumberland ? As is expected,K-4s no.s 1361 and 3750 are listed on the N.Y. Div and region until 1956. Other oddities... A H-9s no. 1187 is listed on the Maryland div. for many years,then goes to the Phila.Div. I would guess that the PRR kept H-3 no. 1187 rostered differently. Also E-7s no. 7002(nee 8063) is'nt listed also,so i would guess the PRR rostered it differently too. On the N.Y. Div. the A-6 and A-6s is listed as a electric engine,which as we all know was a Altoona built gas-diesel-electric engine(s). Why is it listed as a electric? Only few T-1 classes are listed as late as 1955, Just the year before most of them are listed. There are still many Q-2 class engines listed as late as 1955 (Ft. Wayne div.),but none the next year. I had always thought that steam on the Maryland Div. ended in late 1952-early 1953, but there are engines listed on the Maryland Div. as late as 1956. Were they still active or is this emergency power? Also two I-1sa class engines were in Maryland from 1951 to 1952.(No.s 4250,4631) These would have been the heaviest steam engines to normally operate there. ETT's don't restrict them on the main,but do on many secondary,branch and yard tracks. what were they there for ? At least now i can justify having one on my layout. There were many engines listed as leased out to companies,such as Stauffer Chemical and U.S.Steel.I would guess in boiler service. Also...when the M.P.229 lists engines equipted for Back-up service...what is that? boiler service? running on the head-end in reverse? When studying these M.P.229...one other question i have is this.... are all engines listed supposed to be in active service,or is this just a listing of locomotives on the property ? Have Fun Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 13:16:09 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] One More Question to Ponder Here i go again.... Were ANY PRR steam or early diesel engines ever sold to and Central or South american railroads, such as were done with various PRR passenger and freight equipment? (remember the 1930's Broadway equipment going to Mexico?). Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 13:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] One More Question to Ponder Hank, I can only think of 1 steamer going out of the country. This wold be the B6sb that went to Korea. Hmmm, wonder if it is still around? Not sure on diesels, I don't follow them as much.... Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Deimling" Subject: FW: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 10:35:24 -0700 -----Original Message----- From: Gene Deimling [mailto:endeimling@mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 8:52 AM To: Bobspf@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! The diagram for this car can be found on Rob Schoenberg's site. It lists the car at 14'6" which is the same height as a B60 baggage car. I would guess that it operated into Penn Station. Gene Deimling -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 8:33 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! In a message dated 10/1/00 8:58:03 AM Central Daylight Time, CENTGA@aol.com writes: << Does anyone know if these cars were run in certain areas or did they roam the system? >> The 10 cars were built for mail storage. I have or have seen photos or videos of them at Harrisburg, Chicago, and Cincinatti. I can't find the height dimensions. The only question I have is whether they were able to go in and out of Penn Station New York. Otherwise no reason I can see that they wouldn't have gone anywhere a mail storage car was needed. My question is whether they were interchanged offline. Seems to me I have seen them in Dallas or some other location, but can't get my personal memory chip to function as to the source. I picked up the brass car at a deep discount years ago and have been debating for years whether to paint it in the builder photograph scheme of tuscan with gold stripes which may or may not have ever been used on one car if ever or the more typical circle keystone of my era. No REA reporting marks that I know of, maybe because they were never used in that service?. Photo I have shows CK with lettering on door "Equipped with stanchions for loading mail". Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 15:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR E-8 Sighting!!! Sort of!!! List, Another piece of ex-PRR equipment was viewed on my recent road trip. The same day I saw the X-42 in fact. Out side of Albany, NY (West Side) on Rt 20 near the town of Duanesburg NY is located an E-8. We were travling west on Rt 20 minding our bussiness and BINGO! the front of an EMD unit (with nose lift rings) was viewable to the right while passing a small bussiness. We looked at each other and just had to go back and look this thing over. When we stopped in we noticed it wasn't an F unit like we originally thought but it was an E8. We asked around for the owner and finally made contact with him. Here is the story behind this E8. This fellow purchased the hulk of an E8 from Conrail in 1994. Conrail had removed all the guts. The unit was cut in 2, shipped to this location and is now being rebuilt for display, minus the guts. The owner has 1 truck, the fuel tank and is a whiz at welding. He has welded the superstructure back together. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, this is an E8 minuus 10 ft. A 10 foot section was lost when the unit had its inards removed. The owner is restoring this the best he can. The fuel tank was removed and restored/painted. The framework of the loco sides has been completed and awaits new panels. He is missing the pilot but has tracings to fabricate a new one. Not sure if he is putting in the Port hole windows? Bennett, could you be of help to him? He also needs a headlight ring. When he is finished he plans on having a retail store inside the unit. I believe this will be one good looking item once it is finished. Now, the background on this E-8. It is definitly an ex-PRR unit. The original number is 5762A. When the unit was purchased and delivered from Colony Yards it was still wearing PC paint and lettering. Underneath the paint in the doorway frame is the orginal Tuscan and 5 stripes. Pretty neat! The faded black paint the unit is in now has a definite green tint to it. My guess is this unit was painted when PC came into being and DGLE was used for its coat. Yes I saved a paint chip! I could also be the way Black paint fades over the years too. Once the owner has the completed E8 work done he plans on giving it a new Paint Job. No it won't be painted Pennsy. Remember, this is outside Albany New York. He has decided to paint it NYC Lightning Strpe. Yikes!!!!!!! Work should be done by next year I suppose. So if anyone is up that way, stop in and see it. I took a few photos of it in it's as is shape. Look for them posted in the future....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:55:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] One More Question to Ponder Hank, list, Hank Mummert wrote, in part --- bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Were ANY PRR steam...ever sold to and Central or South american railroads.... My copy of Edson's PRR All-Time Steam roster is in storage, but I remember several of the H6b/H6sb listing saying sold to Manchuria in 1939-40 (to the Japanese regime occupying that portion of mainland China). I also recall a R&LHS bulletin article about the H6 and subclasses that stated the same thing. It's not South America, but it's as close as I can recall. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 01:31:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Prototype Modelers meet in FLA.. Folks, If you haven't heard then let me share the new of this event with you. This meet takes place in the warmer winter climate of Florida... A perfect get away for most of us. It offers a good chance to get together and "Talk Shop" and share our modeling together in a "show and tell" setting and attend a clinic or two and learn a bit. So bring your models and travel on down, I think you will like the company... You are all invited... Greg Martin ----------------- Forwarded Message: Subj: [PM-list] Prototype Rails Date: 9/27/00 6:53:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: brockm@brevard.net (Mike Brock) Reply-to: brockm@brevard.net (Mike Brock) To: PROTOTYPEmodeler@egroups.com Prototype Rails continues to grow. We now have 23 clinicians lined up. Without a doubt this will be the most powerful package of clinicians ever assembled in Florida and the South with the possible exception of the Atlanta NMRA National Convention. We plan to have a $100 gift certificate drawing to Colonial Photo & Hobby at the close of both Friday and Saturday night's sessions for those present so please hang around. If you want to learn from some pretty successful modelers, see hundreds of models, talk shop with many of those whose messages you read frequently on the list or just hang out and have fun, Prototype Rails will be the place to be next Jan 12-13. Here is the current status of the meet: Prototype Rails, a railroad prototype modeling meet, will be conducted at the Hilton Hotel, Cocoa Beach, FL [just south of Kennedy Space Center] on Jan 12/13 2001. The theme of the meet is "The Prototype And How To Model It." While emphasis will be placed on bringing models for display and discussion [we are aiming for 500 ], the meet will feature continuous clinics, forums, modular layouts [HO, O, On3, and Sn3 is the goal ], dealers specializing in prototype models, and two visits to prototype modeling layouts. All scales and gauges are welcome. An operating session at one layout prior to the meet is being considered. Pre registration for Prototype Rails will be $25. Registration at the door will be $30. Make checks out to Prototype Rails and mail to Warren Dryden, 65 Dorset Lane, Satellite Beach, FL 32937. For additional information, contact Mike Brock at phone: 321-453-4140 or E Mail: brockm@brevard.net Make your own reservation with the Hilton Hotel at $85. Refer to Prototype Rails when making your reservation. The direct phone number is 321-799-0003. The address is 1550 North Atlantic Avenue [A1A] Cocoa Beach, FL 32931. Prototype Rails Florida will begin with a layout visit to John Wilkes' layout in Winterhaven. The times for this will be announced at a later time but attendees will either meet at John's or proceed by caravan from the Cocoa Beach Hilton at 10 AM on Friday, Jan 12. The visit will terminate no later than 2:30 PM and proceed to the Hilton Hotel at Cocoa Beach. Activities at the hotel will begin approximately at 6 PM Friday, Jan 12 and will continue until 11PM that night. Activities will begin again at 8 AM on Saturday and continue until 11 PM. We are planning a two layout short distance visit Sunday morning although this may also be provided on Sat [Lou Ullian's On3 Coon Creek...see the first Great Model RRs & my Sherman Hill layout http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=300446&a=2323299 ]. The clinic schedule will have only a 1 hr break at lunch and dinner. While no formal meals are planned, we will try to provide some kind of arrangement with the hotel for a lunch and diner on Sat at a group rate so that attendees don't have to spend time trying to locate food in winter season crowded restaurants. More on this later. The meet has 50 rooms blocked for both Friday and Saturday night. After these are gone, the $85 rate will be honored only if rooms are available. Normal rates are $129. Be aware that this meet is being held at the height of the FL tourist season and I assure you that rooms in this area will be scarce at that time. If a Space Shuttle launch is scheduled during this time, rooms will be even more difficult to obtain. Note that there are other Hilton Hotels in the area, one at Satellite Beach, only about 10 miles south of our hotel, so be certain you find our hotel. For those not aware of hotel centered meets such as ours, the cost of meeting rooms is dependent on selling the blocked sleeping rooms. If this meet is successful, I plan to make it an annual affair and try to grow it into a more national attraction. So, I urge you to make your accommodations at our hotel. Current clinics are: 1. Modeling the L&N in Appalachia: John Wilkes [ see Trackside Photos , July MR] 2. Signals, Signal Systems and How to Model Them: Ken Farnham 3. ACL/SAL Passenger Cars: Ron Dettmer [ An ex employee, Ron has detailed information about this equipment] 4. Operations: Bruce Metcalf 5. Rust and how to Model it: Mike Rose [ see Sep/Oct RMC ] 6. Less Than Carload Container Cars and Loads: Al Westerfield 7. St. Louis Refrigerator Beer Reefers and Mail Express: Martin Lofton, Sunshine Models [tentative] 8. Modeling the UP on Sherman Hill: Mike Brock 9. Weathering Diesels and Cars: Jim Six 10. Modern tank cars: Tim Frederick 11. Steam Locomotives: Andy Sperandeo 12. Prototypes for Passenger Car Models: Andy Harmon [ tentative] 13. Appalachian Coal Industry: John Roberts 14: Shay Locomotives: Lou Ullian 15. The Bone Valley :Tom Bissett [CSX engineer] 16. Prototype Track Planning and Practices: Tom Bissett 17. Methods of Modeling Passenger Cars: Joe Oates [Ex CSX employee] 18. Shading and Highlighting, Weathering with Artificial Light: Greg Martin 19. Researching Modern Frt Cars [exact title may change]: David Casdorph 20. Modern Diesels [exact title may change]: Scott Chatfield 21. Modeling Modern Grain Cars [exact title may change]: Ken Edmier 22. Dayna Warner: Detailing buildings 23. Bruce Smith: Steam Locomotive Sound and Operations Current roundtables to be conducted: 1. Modeling diesels: Jim Six,. Mike Rose, Dennis Lippert, Greg Martin 2. Sn3 modeling: Joe Brooke, Art Cominio 3. Operations on John Wilkes' L&N layout: John Wilkes, Tom Wilson, Ed Kasper While the objective of Prototype Rails is to conduct serious model railroading activities, the final goal is always to relax and have fun...which we certainly will do. I hope you will join us. Mike Brock Meet Chairman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Conrail Motive Power Review Vol II Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 16:26:54 -0400 Howdy Walt and list: I don't know if it's true, but I heard it from two different sources, Vol II is not in the works and as far as the sources know was dropped. It is a shame, there is a lot of information in Vol 1. Cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystones on Diesels and freight cars Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 19:42:04 -0700 Sanner Burkhard asked: At what date [were] the different keystone variations were introduced: Freight cars - Circle keystone - Shadow keystone - Plain keystone (and black color?) The last order of new hoppers delivered in freight car color were the 1000 Class H35 70 ton triple hoppers in 1955. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 14:48:43 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] One More Question to Ponder --- bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Here i go again.... > > Were ANY PRR steam or early diesel engines ever > sold to and Central or South american railroads, Wouldn't be much scope for such sales. As I recall, Mexico, Peru, and maybe Argentina are the only countries using the 4' 8 1/2" gauge. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L Subject: [PRR] Arbour Model J-1 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:06:45 -0500 During my weekly trip at the hobby shop, I noticed an old Arbour Models PRR J-1 kit. I know nothing about these models, but after searching through the box, I noticed the kit would take a lot more time and skill to put together then a Bowser. The kit was untouched, all pieces were present, and the price is $75. Anybody on this list have any experience with these kits? And is it a good pick up for the price? Thanx in advance for any info. Joe Hildenbrand A T55BS&TS Member ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 08:47:04 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Arbour Model J-1 --- Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L wrote: > During my weekly trip at the hobby shop, I > noticed an old Arbour Models > PRR J-1 kit. > Anybody on this list have any > experience with these kits? Not I. However. I did talk to a fellow who had sold a couple of them. He reported that the soft metal of the castings didn't wear well. That is, side rod holes wore out, axle slots in frame wore out. In his opinion, the demise of Arbour Models was well-deserved. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:51:06 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Arbour Model J-1 >Joe Hildenbrand wrote: > During my weekly trip at the hobby shop, I noticed an old Arbour Models >PRR J-1 kit. I know nothing about these models, but after searching through >the box, I noticed the kit would take a lot more time and skill to put >together then a Bowser. The kit was untouched, all pieces were present, and >the price is $75. Anybody on this list have any experience with these kits? >And is it a good pick up for the price? Thanx in advance for any info. While I have never built one of these models, I have often heard reference made to their "being one step shy of scratchbuilding" . As for being worth &75, well...nobody offers a J-1 in kit form (although Bowser is considering one) and Arbour hasn't made that kit for eons, so it is "collectible"(?). I guess that If I really wanted to build a J-1, and I felt like a project, I'd go for it, but don't expect it to go together easily or without a lot of work on your part! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Arbour Model J-1 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:02:24 -0400 Joe: I have never owned one or even seen one of these kits, but I have heard nothing but horror stories. I have heard that these Arbour kits are VERY difficult to put together and run satisfactorily. For $75, the kit might be worth buying if you are into collecting kits but you might want to consider a brass unit if you want to get a J-1. Ted Andrews P.S. also, Bowser is in the process in having an overseas manufacturer in producing an J-1; it might be available in a year or so. So you may want to delay in purchasing that J-1 :) -----Original Message----- From: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L [mailto:HildenbrandJL@mfr.usmc.mil] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 10:07 AM To: 'PRR-Talk@dsop.com' Subject: [PRR] Arbour Model J-1 During my weekly trip at the hobby shop, I noticed an old Arbour Models PRR J-1 kit. I know nothing about these models, but after searching through the box, I noticed the kit would take a lot more time and skill to put together then a Bowser. The kit was untouched, all pieces were present, and the price is $75. Anybody on this list have any experience with these kits? And is it a good pick up for the price? Thanx in advance for any info. Joe Hildenbrand A T55BS&TS Member ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 12:52:22 -0400 From: Jason Jaquith Subject: [PRR] Diesel locomotive designations Does anyone have the PRR's diesel locomotive designations posted on line? I was wondering if there was a list that showed both the manufactures name and the Pennsy designation, like GP-7 and EF-15 (if that's what GP-7's were) Thanks. Jason ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:57:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Arbour Model J-1 In a message dated 10/02/2000 10:16:25 AM Central Daylight Time, HildenbrandJL@mfr.usmc.mil writes: << During my weekly trip at the hobby shop, I noticed an old Arbour Models PRR J-1 kit. I know nothing about these models, but after searching through the box, I noticed the kit would take a lot more time and skill to put together then a Bowser. The kit was untouched, all pieces were present, and the price is $75. Anybody on this list have any experience with these kits? And is it a good pick up for the price? Thanx in advance for any info. >> Hi Joseph, I guess you could say I have experience with that kit, I've been working on one for years. I'm about half done at this point. I like the kit, but I'm sick, demented and obviously into pain . It will be a challenge to complete, especially the cast metal rods and valve gear. But I love that engine and hope to complete it before I die. If Bowser comes out with one in plastic, I will still finish the kit. By the wat I hear Bowser also picked up the Arbour line. Another area of concern are the plastic drivers with a metal plating. As for buying for $75.00, I'd be hard pressed to justify more than $50.00. But if you like a challenge, go for it. SPF AL in Bolingbrook, IL. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 13:16:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel locomotive designations From: Jerry Britton On 10/2/00 12:52 PM, Jason Jaquith (jaj165@psu.edu) wrote: > Does anyone have the PRR's diesel locomotive designations posted on > line? I was wondering if there was a list that showed both the > manufactures name and the Pennsy designation, like GP-7 and EF-15 (if > that's what GP-7's were) Thanks. > My site: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/diesel_xref.html Also shows the year each first appeared on the PRR, available HO and N scale models, and has active links to the unit rosters for each class. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 13:55:11 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Final Count: Hoss's Dinner During Rail Fest Greetings to the group, Dinner reservations have been made at Hoss's for the seven fellow listers who indicated interest in the Dinner on the Saturday night of Rail Fest. As I mentioned, my son and I will be working admissions at the Juniata Shops Saturday morning. Say "Hi." if you would when passing through. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 15:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] K4/Steamtown List, I was finally able to visit Steamtown this past week. It was my first time there and hopefully not the last. Well worth a visit. I took the shop tour and viewed K4s 1361. The Tour guide still says look for it to be finished by Sept 2001. I will be impressed if it is. No work was being done that day. Parts are spread out everywhere. They showed us the Drivers. The tires where machined and are finished but one driver needs a new axle. To see what the K4 looks like now you need to visit one of the websites on the internet that keeps you updated. I have one listed on my K4 website (page 3) that is listed below. Take a look. If anyone has been there, you probably seen a large static model of a K4 in the main lobby. The model maybe 5 foot long or so. Does anyone have info on this? I looked it over and it seems to be made of ABS Plastic of some sort. I suppose it is a commission work for the museum. It is very impressive as is. With some extra attention to detail this thing could be a fantastic model of the K4. I asked the Volunteers that work there if they could tell me more about who supplied it but no one really knew. Being it was made of plastic castings, I am sure the molds are still around to cast another. I would love to have one sitting in the house and over time detail it properly. Please, if anyone knows of the builder or knows someone who may know, please advise me. Thanks, Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 16:14:14 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] One More Question to Ponder Hank, While I haven't looked at it recently, my Dad's 8mm movies have a segment on PRR consolidations (I believe H6's) being loaded on a ship for a voyage to South America. I think they were going to Argentina probably in the late 40's or early 50's. Dave pfeiffer At 01:16 PM 10/1/00 -0400, you wrote: > > Here i go again.... > > Were ANY PRR steam or early diesel engines ever > sold to and Central or South american railroads, > such as were done with various PRR passenger and > freight equipment? (remember the 1930's Broadway > equipment going to Mexico?). > > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 14:11:31 +0200 From: Flo & Steve Smith Subject: [PRR] Re : L1 and L2 info required This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C02C7A.AA34E780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi there to the list, I am looking for information on the PRR L1 and L2 classes with respect = to the following : a) Road numbers b) Dates of manufacture c) Approximate dates withdrawn from service d) Operating ranges=20 Thanx in advance=20 Steve Smith sfsmith@iafrica.com ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C02C7A.AA34E780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi there to the list,

I am looking for information on the = PRR L1 and=20 L2 classes with respect to the following :

a) Road = numbers

b) Dates of = manufacture

c) Approximate dates = withdrawn from=20 service

d) =20 Operating ranges

Thanx in advance

Steve Smith

sfsmith@iafrica.com

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C02C7A.AA34E780-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 17:01:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! In a message dated 10/01/2000 9:23:42 AM Central Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << In model form I believe there were 2 companies that imported them. Oriental Models and Precission Scale? >> Hi, I have one that I believe was made imported by Alco models. I'll double check next time I have it Out. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:16:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Arbour Model J-1 Hello list, I don't have direct experience with Arbour Models. However, Jim Kelly reviewed the similar C&O 2-10-4 in the December 1983 Model Railroader; the review was scathing. The soft metal rods and other parts were a nightmare for him, and his kit was missing several pieces. By contrast, Kelly's review of the Bowser G5s in the August 1984 MR was straightforward, with no major difficulties (exactly what I experienced). I would recommend against the Arbour models PRR J-1. Doug --- Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L wrote, in part : > I > noticed an old Arbour Models > PRR J-1 kit. Anybody on this list have any experience with these kits? > And is it a good pick up for the price? Thanx in > advance for any info. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:25:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : L1 and L2 info required Hello list, Flo and Steve, as far as road numbers, exact dates of manufacture, and retirement dates go, your best bet is to purchase Edson's PRR All-time steam roster. Edson's address has been posted in the past; I'm away from my address book, so check the archives for starters. The L1s class was built from 1914-1919, and the last were retired in 1958 and 1959 (L1s 559 was the last active road engine for the PRR; she was used to supply steam for an online customer in January 1959; see Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T for pictures). Numbers were all over the map, from single digits to high 8000 series. L1s engines were found principally on Lines East, though some did work on Lines West. The L2s class was built in 1918 or 1919 (I hate the fact that my reference books are half a world away right now); they're USRA light mikes built for the GR&I; apparently they spent most of their lives in Ohio. All were retired in 1948. I'm going on memory here; numbers were approximately 9627-9631 for this small class of 5 engines. Doug --- Flo & Steve Smith wrote: > Hi there to the list, > > I am looking for information on the PRR L1 and L2 > classes with respect to the following : > > a) Road numbers > b) Dates of manufacture > c) Approximate dates withdrawn from service > d) Operating ranges > > Thanx in advance > Steve Smith > sfsmith@iafrica.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 16:04:58 -0400 (EDT) From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona Area Maps for Rail Fest Attendees Hello to all, For all listers attending Railfest this year: In past years I have met up with the listers at the entrance to the museum on Saturday morning from 8:45AM to 9:15 or so, for anyone needing "railfan" maps, local directions, etc. I can do the same this year, but I'd like to be sure that there is an interest from those attending and a rough count for the number of maps, etc. So, anyone planning to attend, please e-mail me back at chaslett@cse.L-3Com.com , and let me know if you'll be there. I usually set up shop on the first bench on the sidewalk to the left of the main entrance, which has the big Pennsy keystone overhead on the ironwork. I'll be the one in the Cyber Division shirt and Hollidaysburg Car Shops hat. Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 19:44:46 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] K4/Steamtown Gary Mittner wrote, in part: > I was finally able to visit Steamtown this past week. It was my > first time there and hopefully not the last. Well worth a visit. I took > the shop tour and viewed K4s 1361. The Tour guide still says look for it > to be finished by Sept 2001. I will be impressed if it is. Likewise, in late August. I've pix about, somewhere... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:55:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings PRR List, Saw a site that advertised shells for the Baldwin Passenger "Shark". Has anyone use this shell made by Miracle Castings? How is the detail and is there a lot of filling and sanding? Thank you in advance, Evan RCT&HS 346 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] X-42 models Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:51:13 -0400 I believe that the only HO scale brass models of the PRR X-42 imported thus far were from The P Company (built by Daeki) and the recent Precision Scale model. Jerry Breon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 sighting!!! > In a message dated 10/01/2000 9:23:42 AM Central Daylight Time, > mittner@webtv.net writes: > > << In model form I believe there were 2 companies that imported them. > Oriental Models and Precission Scale? >> > Hi, > > I have one that I believe was made imported by Alco models. I'll double check > next time I have it Out. > Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:01:15 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] Dynamometer Car request I've had a request from Walthers concerning a PRR Dynamometer car model they would like to make. If anyone has any information, could you please forward it to Dennis and copy me so I know we've helped him. Thanks, Bill Morlitz PRRT&HS Website Superintendent >I am trying to find information and photos on any dynamometer cars the >PRR may have had starting in the late 1920's. Would you have any >material or sources? >Dennis Pehoski >Wm. K. Walthers, Inc. >New Product Development ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:11:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Dynamometer Car request From: Jerry Britton On 10/3/00 2:01 PM, prrbill (prrbill@Op.Net) wrote: > I've had a request from Walthers concerning a PRR Dynamometer car model > they would like to make. If anyone has any information, could you > please forward it to Dennis and copy me so I know we've helped him. > Interesting request... RailWorks announced several versions of the Sperry Rail Service car in brass. RailWorks then reduced the offering to only one version in brass. Then Walthers announces it in plastic. RailWorks had announced the PRR Dynanometer car in brass. Now they cancelled it. Now Walthers is looking to do it. Hmmm. Got any suggestions for RailWorks to announce/cancel to get Walthers to do it? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:25:43 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Dynamometer Car request Jerry wrote: >Interesting request... > >RailWorks announced several versions of the Sperry Rail Service car in >brass. RailWorks then reduced the offering to only one version in brass. >Then Walthers announces it in plastic. > >RailWorks had announced the PRR Dynanometer car in brass. Now they cancelled >it. Now Walthers is looking to do it. > >Hmmm. Got any suggestions for RailWorks to announce/cancel to get Walthers >to do it? Hey, Maybe Rail Classics will get on the bandwagon and I can get an affordable fleet of plastic P-5 electrics! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Contact Bob Holden Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:16:06 -0500 Sorry for the off topic use. Bob, please contact me off list. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:26:52 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Dynamometer Car request Jerry wrote: >Interesting request... > >RailWorks announced several versions of the Sperry Rail Service car in >brass. RailWorks then reduced the offering to only one version in brass. >Then Walthers announces it in plastic. > >RailWorks had announced the PRR Dynanometer car in brass. Now they cancelled >it. Now Walthers is looking to do it. > >Hmmm. Got any suggestions for RailWorks to announce/cancel to get Walthers >to do it? Then Bruce Smith wrote..... Hey, Maybe Rail Classics will get on the bandwagon and I can get an affordable fleet of plastic P-5 electrics! I second the motion. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:03:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR E-8 List, Just viewed the updated restoration photos of Ex-PRR Ex-Conrail now PRR (again) E-8 that are posted on the PRRT&HS homepage. My Goodness!, what a couple months work can do. You got to see it. Congrats go out to Bennett and his gang for bringing this loco back to life. The single stripe version was a wise decission. Looks Good. Bennett, what are you going to drive to the next convention?......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 23:24:59 -0500 Evan--I have done several Miracle Castings BP20 Sharks. If you will check the archives, there were a couple of extensive "lessons learned" type postings several months ago. Keeping in mind that these are resin, the detail is quite good. There is some filling/sanding required, principally around the window openings, but generally the shells are quite flash free. The principal complaint was that the steps which extend below the shell are extremely brittle, requiring a lot of care in cleaning the flash and after installation. Overall: very good model. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:45:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] Off topic Reading question I hate to post this question to the PRR list but I know we have some Reading fans out there. LL has posted their new products, among them are Reading cabooses in the green and yellow paint scheme. Can anyone tell me what time era this paint job is appropriate for? Thanks Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:39:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Off topic Reading question The two tone yelow /green was used first on the Readings GP-30's delivered in 1962. I'm not sure when they started to apint cabooses in this scheme but all motive power from that point up to the GP-40's were in the two tone scheme. I think the 1963-1976 era would be safe. -------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 08:35:12 -0500 From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] Re: Off topic Reading Question Todd Reading had two groups of green and yellow cabs, of course the new International Wide Vision cars came that way, and RDG shops painted a few of the Northeastern style as they were rebuilt modified. Interestingly class MNi #92900 built in 1941 was repainted but not rebuilt. There is a photo of this car at West Cressona, Pa in Nov 1970 on the RCT&HS 2000 calendar for November. Also note we have a talk list for RDG. John RCT&HS #585 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 10:54:22 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] Triumph II Question Greetings to the list and appologies if this has been asked/pointed out before. I have had my copy of this second Robertsian Ramble for quite a while, but haven't given it very much attention except to look at all the 'purty pitchers' (as we from the Cummerlin Vaaly like to say). And I wasn't too concerned about the potential for historical errors because Roberts supposedly brought in adult supervision to help him separate fact from myth and idle conjecture this time. So, my wife and cat were startled nearly to distraction when I exploded from the den, ranting wildly about Baltimorons keeping to subjects south of Mason and Dixon's Line while pointing urgently to page 209 in Harrumph II. Has anyone else noticed the egregious (dare I say, stupid) error in the caption under the engraving of train crossing CVRR bridge w/ camel back highway bridge in background looking northwest from the west bank of Susquehanna River? AAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! This image as common as JFK photographs hanging in Greek restaurants! But Roberts and his "editor" have apparently missed it before now. They would have the uninformed reader believe that the train was actually on the line that would eventually become a branch of the READING RR!!!!!!! and that the hump-backed highway bridge was the CVRR!!!!!!!!!!! What dolts! What frauds! Memo for Charlie Roberts, et al: Just because there's two railroad bridges there in 1998, doesn't mean there have always been two railroad bridges there. You and your "editor" should stick to what you know ... which definitely doesn't include writing historical works. Maybe you should just concentrate on publishing railroad books with 'purty pitchers' and leave the captions to our imaginations. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:04:32 -0700 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] web address Hi, What is the URL for the PRRT&HS web site home page. Thanks Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 909-248-9197 Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (fax) P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 (Retired) E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy power III Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:47:06 EDT Group, Quite some time ago there was the discussion that there was going to be a reprint of Pennsy power III. Does anybody know if this has happened? and if so where I can get it? If not does anybody know when it will be reprinted? Thanks Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:48:58 -0400 From: "John Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy power III I remember seeing this fall, but don't recall a specific date. I did see it on someone's list the other day. It said the list price was still $75. John Ryan Sam Vastano wrote: > > Group, > > Quite some time ago there was the discussion that there was going to be a > reprint of Pennsy power III. Does anybody know if this has happened? and if > so where I can get it? > > If not does anybody know when it will be reprinted? > > Thanks > > Sam Vastano ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:49:15 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] web address Frank Bagrash wrote: > Hi, > > What is the URL for the PRRT&HS web site home page. Thanks > > Frank > > -- > Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 909-248-9197 > Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (fax) > P.O. Box 6846 > California State University > Fullerton, California 92834-6846 > (Retired) > E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu > Boogie gently, babies Frank, It's Bill Morlitz, Sup. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:34:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy power III I'LL See Al Staufer on Friday - at our "O" scale meeting, and wil ask him the status Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] New PRR electrics book Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 21:18:45 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C02F11.D82DBEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Several months back I mentioned that a local railroad author here in the = Hershey, PA area was working on a new PRR book. I got to see it last = night and supposedly its on some book store shelves now. Its entitled, = "Trackside Under Pennsy Wires", written by Jeremy Plant and published by = Morning Sun. The author used the slide collection of James Shurman, a = former PRR employee who loved electric motors and trolleys. All photos = are never before published. Almost all shots are from the Harrisburg, = Enola, Lemoyne, Lancaster, Columbia, etc areas. Lots of great photos of = PRR trains snaking along the Susquehanna. Shots of coal barges on the = river with trains in the background. Some pictures taken from the river = looking toward the shore. Many panoramic shots with trains on bridges. = Includes pictures of many extremely remote and seldom photographed = areas. If you like electrics and are interested in these areas I think = you'll like this book. In some shots neither the author nor = photographer could pinpoint the location so they've taken their most = educated guess and invite readers to provide comment. Quality photography with well laid out pages and all the little extra = things we've become accustomed to. If your wondering my comments don't = get me a free book or even a price break. I still pay the $54 like = everyone else. Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C02F11.D82DBEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Several months back I mentioned that a = local=20 railroad author here in the Hershey, PA area was working on a new PRR=20 book. I got to see it last night and supposedly its on some book = store=20 shelves now. Its entitled, "Trackside Under Pennsy Wires", written = by=20 Jeremy Plant and published by Morning Sun. The author used the = slide=20 collection of James Shurman, a former PRR employee who loved electric = motors and=20 trolleys. All photos are never before published. Almost all = shots=20 are from the Harrisburg, Enola, Lemoyne, Lancaster, Columbia, etc = areas. =20 Lots of great photos of PRR trains snaking along the Susquehanna. = Shots of=20 coal barges on the river with trains in the background. Some = pictures=20 taken from the river looking toward the shore. Many panoramic = shots with=20 trains on bridges. Includes pictures of many extremely = remote=20 and seldom photographed areas. If you like electrics and are = interested in=20 these areas I think you'll like this book. In some shots neither = the=20 author nor photographer could pinpoint the location so they've taken = their most=20 educated guess and invite readers to provide comment.

Quality photography with well laid out = pages and=20 all the little extra things we've become accustomed to. If your = wondering=20 my comments don't get me a free book or even a price break. I = still pay=20 the $54 like everyone else.

Kris

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C02F11.D82DBEC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy power III Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:22:47 EDT Dick & Group, I called al' house the book is in publication as we speak, his wife said it should be out the end of this month. Sam Vastano >From: VVA249@aol.com >To: svastano@hotmail.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Pennsy power III >Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:34:37 EDT > >I'LL See Al Staufer on Friday - at our "O" scale meeting, and wil ask him >the >status >Dick Ross >Cleveland _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 23:24:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] X-42 models PRR List, Was at Caboose Hobbies in Denver, Colo. today and due to all the list traffic about the X-42 box car I checked the brass case for PRR cars. There were two of the X-42 cars in HO in the case plus several factory painted X-40a cars, unpainted H-25 hoppers in several versions, a deep well flat and a depressed center flat. The X-42 box cars are stock numbers: 62284 Prec. Scale Co., factory painted and lettered (Keystone in solid white circle), consignment sale at $195. 62982 Prec. Scale Co., unpainted, consignment sale at $129. Happy PRR modeling, Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 06:23:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR electrics book From: Jerry Britton On 10/5/00 9:18 PM, Kris Kollar at (kkollar@cplx.net) wrote: > Several months back I mentioned that a local railroad author here in the > Hershey, PA area was working on a new PRR book. I got to see it last night > and supposedly its on some book store shelves now. Its entitled, "Trackside > Under Pennsy Wires", written by Jeremy Plant and published by Morning Sun. > The author used the slide collection of James Shurman, a former PRR employee > who loved electric motors and trolleys. All photos are never before > published. Almost all shots are from the Harrisburg, Enola, Lemoyne, > Lancaster, Columbia, etc areas. Lots of great photos of PRR trains snaking > along the Susquehanna. Shots of coal barges on the river with trains in the > background. Some pictures taken from the river looking toward the shore. > Many panoramic shots with trains on bridges. Includes pictures of many > extremely remote and seldom photographed areas. If you like electrics and are > interested in these areas I think you'll like this book. In some shots > neither the author nor photographer could pinpoint the location so they've > taken their most educated guess and invite readers to provide comment. > > Quality photography with well laid out pages and all the little extra things > we've become accustomed to. If your wondering my comments don't get me a free > book or even a price break. I still pay the $54 like everyone else. > You don't have to pay $54! I am selling them for under $44. My shipment is actually en route (confirmed) and are expected in today. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:49:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] Foreigen power on the corridor Were there any transfer runs or other reasons for non-PRR power to either travel on the corridor or lay over at one of the terminals between Philadelphia and Trenton? Thanks for any input on the late 50's or early 60's. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Steamtown K4 List, Several days ago I mentioned I had the opportunity to visit Steamtown last week. I also mentioned I viewed a large K4 Model on display in the main lobby. http://www.baytechnologies.com/bti1.jpg I did some research on the internet as to who supplied the model in hopes to obtaining one myself. If anyone else was interested also, you can now put your wallets away. I recieved an email from Steamtown today answering my inquiry. The K4 model was built under a bid contract and a company from Wisconsin was the low bidder. The ABS Plastic Model was completed and delivered to Steamtown in 1994 at the cost of $32,000. Yep, $32,000. Thats a 3, a 2, and 3 zeros. Needless to say, it is out of my price range. I guess it was wishful thinking on my part to think I could add this model to my personal collection......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:14:00 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re:[PRR] Steamtown K4 Gary Mittner wrote: ... The K4 model was built under a bid contract and a company from Wisconsin was the low bidder. The ABS Plastic Model was completed and delivered to Steamtown in 1994 at the cost of $32,000. Yep, $32,000. Thats a 3, a 2, and 3 zeros. Needless to say, it is out of my price range. I guess it was wishful thinking on my part to think I could add this model to my personal collection......Gary ---------- C'mon Gary, Get one in each road number, to match your photo collection. :-) -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Re:[PRR] Steamtown K4 Jerry, I added that up, if I bought one K4 for each K4 photo. 425 K4s X $32,000. Thats $13,600,000.00 Yikes! And thats not counting the variations. One could purchase a handful of real K4's for that price.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:59:32 -0400 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 Gary Mittner wrote: > > Jerry, > > I added that up, if I bought one K4 for each K4 photo. 425 K4s X > $32,000. Thats $13,600,000.00 Yikes! And thats not counting the > variations. One could purchase a handful of real K4's for that > price.......Gary That's enough to pay for the restoration of 1361, and have enough left over to convince the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania to restore 3750. Patrick -- =========================================================================== " My heart is warm with the friends I make, And better friends I'll not be knowing; Yet there isn't a train I wouldn't take, No matter where it's going." -Edna St. Vincent Millay, Travel, 1921 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, The Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati (formerly Railway Exposition Company), Latonia, Kentucky PRRT&HS #6713 ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 14:25:09 EDT Group, I would rather see a reproduction T1!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sam >From: Patrick Rieger >Reply-To: patrick@dementia.org >To: Gary Mittner >CC: geshick@velocity.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:59:32 -0400 > > > >Gary Mittner wrote: > > > > Jerry, > > > > I added that up, if I bought one K4 for each K4 photo. 425 K4s X > > $32,000. Thats $13,600,000.00 Yikes! And thats not counting the > > variations. One could purchase a handful of real K4's for that > > price.......Gary > >That's enough to pay for the restoration of 1361, and have enough left >over to convince the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania to restore 3750. > >Patrick > >-- >=========================================================================== >" My heart is warm with the friends I make, > And better friends I'll not be knowing; > Yet there isn't a train I wouldn't take, > No matter where it's going." > -Edna St. Vincent Millay, > Travel, 1921 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick >Volunteer, The Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati >(formerly Railway Exposition Company), Latonia, Kentucky >PRRT&HS #6713 >============================================================================ > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 14:30:46 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 Ah, the wonders of a federal contract! Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > Several days ago I mentioned I had the opportunity to visit Steamtown > last week. I also mentioned I viewed a large K4 Model on display in the > main lobby. http://www.baytechnologies.com/bti1.jpg I did some research > on the internet as to who supplied the model in hopes to obtaining one > myself. If anyone else was interested also, you can now put your wallets > away. > I recieved an email from Steamtown today answering my inquiry. The > K4 model was built under a bid contract and a company from Wisconsin was > the low bidder. The ABS Plastic Model was completed and delivered to > Steamtown in 1994 at the cost of $32,000. Yep, $32,000. Thats a 3, a 2, > and 3 zeros. Needless to say, it is out of my price range. I guess it > was wishful thinking on my part to think I could add this model to my > personal collection......Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:35:34 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Steamtown K-4 Hi All.... Heck for 13.5 million we could have built new..... Two new K-4s,a K-5,a T-1 and maybe a Q-2 or J-1 just to make sure we have them covered. Hey....lets start contacting our congressmen and bug them for a grant for a alternative fuel loco program. Heck with congress you never know. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown K4 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:51:31 -0400 Hi List, Just looked at the photo of the K4 model. I don't know how good or bad the photo is, but if it is even reasonably clear, I'm not impressed. I would think for 32-grand we should have a lot more detail and proportion. The thing just don't look "right". Back in the teens & twenty's when the real ones were being built they probably didn't cost much over $32,000 each. I'm in the wrong business!! I've got to move to Wisconsin & become a professional model maker. $32,000.00----WOW! Till later. C. Burnley PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mahon [mailto:tmahon@cfnh.com] Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 2:31 PM To: Gary Mittner Cc: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 Ah, the wonders of a federal contract! Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > Several days ago I mentioned I had the opportunity to visit Steamtown > last week. I also mentioned I viewed a large K4 Model on display in the > main lobby. http://www.baytechnologies.com/bti1.jpg I did some research > on the internet as to who supplied the model in hopes to obtaining one > myself. If anyone else was interested also, you can now put your wallets > away. > I recieved an email from Steamtown today answering my inquiry. The > K4 model was built under a bid contract and a company from Wisconsin was > the low bidder. The ABS Plastic Model was completed and delivered to > Steamtown in 1994 at the cost of $32,000. Yep, $32,000. Thats a 3, a 2, > and 3 zeros. Needless to say, it is out of my price range. I guess it > was wishful thinking on my part to think I could add this model to my > personal collection......Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:55:12 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 Maybe a just a meger few of the many, many, many, million$ that we taxpayers waste on AMTRAK could be used to fund the Alternative Fuel Passenger Locomotive Project a/k/a T-2. Don't knock the NPS or Steamtown; for some of us that is all we get for our tax dollars! BL Sam Vastano wrote: > > Group, > > I would rather see a reproduction T1!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Sam > > >From: Patrick Rieger > >Reply-To: patrick@dementia.org > >To: Gary Mittner > >CC: geshick@velocity.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 > >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:59:32 -0400 > > > > > > > >Gary Mittner wrote: > > > > > > Jerry, > > > > > > I added that up, if I bought one K4 for each K4 photo. 425 K4s X > > > $32,000. Thats $13,600,000.00 Yikes! And thats not counting the > > > variations. One could purchase a handful of real K4's for that > > > price.......Gary > > > >That's enough to pay for the restoration of 1361, and have enough left > >over to convince the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania to restore 3750. > > > >Patrick > > > >-- > >=========================================================================== > >" My heart is warm with the friends I make, > > And better friends I'll not be knowing; > > Yet there isn't a train I wouldn't take, > > No matter where it's going." > > -Edna St. Vincent Millay, > > Travel, 1921 > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick > >Volunteer, The Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati > >(formerly Railway Exposition Company), Latonia, Kentucky > >PRRT&HS #6713 > >============================================================================ > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:59:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K-4 There is a story floating around the RR boards on AOL about a woman who wrote Al Gore asking that the Texas Eagle not be discontinued because it was her only way of getting to visit her grandchildren. He wrote back she needed to contact the Texas DNR about enforcing the endangered species act and he never met an endangered species he didn't think shouldn't be saved. SO, lets ask for the corridor to run the PRR engines as long as we are at it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown K4 Charles, The proprtions of the model seems to be good, atleast thats my impression the 10 minutes I was looking at it. I didn't have drawings with me to compare it to but it looked good. The detailing is what it is lacking. With some more time in the right hands it could have been a much better static model. The museums purpose for the model did not call for such detail. That $32,000.00 price tag is not just for the final model. That is the research, die making and completion of the model by the company. Now, only if they could produce more for retail sale at a resonable price. Thats comparable to say, LifeLike Proto 2000 producing the 2-8-8-2. They spend $100,000 (thats a guess) on research and tooling. However, the more they produce the more they profit. They wouldn' t just produce one model. With this K4 job, the company bid a contract, won and produced the one they were required. End of story. Too bad......Gary. PS: The average cost of a Baldwin Built I1s in 1923 was $72,700.00 Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:48:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 In a message dated 10/6/00 3:42:07 PM Central Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << The average cost of a Baldwin Built I1s in 1923 was $72,700.00 >> The first Q2 was $428,598, of which $330,148.81 was for construction, turned out 8/28/44. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 17:56:08 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K-4 Suits Me, Bennett Levin NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > There is a story floating around the RR boards on AOL about a woman who wrote > Al Gore asking that the Texas Eagle not be discontinued because it was her > only way of getting to visit her grandchildren. He wrote back she needed to > contact the Texas DNR about enforcing the endangered species act and he never > met an endangered species he didn't think shouldn't be saved. SO, lets ask > for the corridor to run the PRR engines as long as we are at it. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:55:22 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] loco costs Hello.... According to "Trains" "Pennsy Power I" and the "Keystone"..... G-5s = $35,590 including tender(1924)Three still around today. M-1 = $65,612 " " (1926)Keep in mind that W.Atterbury bought one on his own.(1923) K-5 = $74,382 " " (1929 Altoona built engine No.5698) (my favorite) K-5 = $71,388 " " (1929 Baldwin built engine No.5699 $91,887 with PRR supplied added parts). GG-1 = $250,000 (more or less,1934-1943) Value to PRR fans......Priceless.... And Visa and Mastercard won't cover that folks. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:41:03 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] looking for H.O.3D5P2 trucks Hello Everyone.... I've recently gotten a old Horse car and am looking for a set of PRR class 3D5P2 or 3D-P1 trucks for it. Precision Scale made some of these trucks. If anyone might have a pair to sell please contact me off list. If needed i have a pic of what the 3D5P2 class looks like. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 20:45:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 Gary Did you by any chance get the name of the "company in Wisconsin" that produced the model? Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 20:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown K4 Jon, I sure did. The name of the company is Bay Technologies, Geenbay Wis. I am waiting for a reply from an inquiry I made to them this morning. Just curious to what they say. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PC-Buff@webtv.net Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 20:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] X-58 Hello all with the spotting of the X-50 boxcar the other day I took a trip to Northumberland Yard here in central Pa. Here the NS sets off cars for the North Shore RR( a small shortline). I spotted an X-58 boxcar with the PRR kestone whited out with PC worms over top but both were fading through. The neat part was the car was its original PRR color but with a Jade Green Door. Also the #was painted over with Jade Green paint with a CR #placed over in white. I took 3 photos I just wished I had a way to scan them.. Car # was CR 362209 X-58 4444 Cu. Ft. Blt 10-65. anyone in the general area interested in taking photos the car was moved to the North Shores Shores Yard John MP 258 (SF) Sunbury Pa ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sam cali" Subject: [PRR] Hightstown NJ Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 05:10:09 GMT Does anyone know when or why the PRR bridge in Hightstown was removed? (This is on the former Camden and Amboy line) Anyone have any photos? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 09:12:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Hightstown NJ I would guess the trestle at Hightstown disappeared about ten years ago, but perhaps somebody has an exact date. My impression at the time was it was part of a road improvement project in the downtown area. The line had been cut for quite a while into separate running tracks west of Hightstown; I think they were called Hightstown and Robbinsville, so when the last through train ran would have been quite some time ago. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Water Bridges Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:18:57 -0700 Can anyone name where there where signal type bridges with water spouts on the PRR in pennsylvania? Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 21:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] X-42 revisited, List, Getting back to the X-42 thread for a moment. I was able to purchase the HO Scale Brass P-Company X-42 at a local train show today. Nice model but the trucks could be better modeled. May pick up a replacement pair for it later. I searched the archives here on PRR-Talk for painting tips for this car. I found what I believe will be hellpful when the time comes to paint it. I plan on painting this with the Passenger Equipment Style Color and Lettering which will be Tuscan Red Paint and Gold Leaf Lettering. Acoording to the archved posts here, this scheme would have been used in the early 50's time period. Would this have indeed used the Gold Leaf Lettering or Dulux Gold Lettering? Or possibly could these cars used either color during this short time frame. We all know the X-29's that were used in REA Passenger Service were painted standard Freight Car Color. Has any new info been found since the posts 2 years ago stateing these X-42 cars were indeed painted Tuscan Red and NOT Freight Car Color when wearing the Passenger Lettering and Stripes? A nice model like this needs to be painted correctly so any additional info is helpful. I learned today that the Precission Scale Factory Painted X-42 Models were actually painted and decaled wrong. (Didn't catch what the goof was) but I would like to avoid thier results. Any new info is appreciated......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 23:05:31 -0400 From: ERIC LAUTERBACH Subject: [PRR] New Pennsy Steam In O gauge I was at a Greenburg train show today and saw a really neat K-line streamline K-4 #3768. It looked really good, but was painted in a redish color. Not a bad price at about 325 without sound and about 425 with sound. But you have to be a member of K-line's club to buy it. It looked close to scale. Much much nicer than MTH railking version of the engine. I would say that the detailing is very close to MTH premier O scale line. Also in MTH 2001 Vol 1 catalog, they are offering a scale H-10 that looks very good in the premier line and a Railking I-1. Eric Also, any word yet on Bowser and the J1a. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 23:14:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 revisited, Gary, please don't tell me that the PSC cars have a painting mistake. If you find out what this is can you post itto the board? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 23:19:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Trains Magazine 60TH Fellow List Members Spent today at the Trains Magazine 60th Anniversary Party at the Rochelle Railroad Park in IL. There was a great turn out, the weather was good (cold but bright sunshine), Trains provided a nice catered lunch for all and a nice show was put on by the UP & the BNSF who share the four track diamond at the park. So why this information on PRR Talk you ask ? Well there was a late model dark green (almost brunswick) van running around the park area with a very large Keystone on both doors! I never got to find and talk to the driver but was wondering if he is a list member (if your out there, you know who you are), and if so, could you get in touch with me? There are so few of us Pennsy folks out here. . . and I'd like to talk. Thanks ! ! Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 Friends of the RR Museum of PA. JONS6755@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 21:09:26 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Bridges --- Greg Stone wrote: > Can anyone name where there where signal type > bridges with water spouts on > the PRR in pennsylvania? > Just east of the PA981 overpass, east of Latrobe, PA, for one. That was in conjunction with the track pans at that location. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 15:06:42 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Bridges --- robert netzlof wrote: > > --- Greg Stone wrote: > > Can anyone name where there where signal type > > bridges with water spouts on > > the PRR in pennsylvania? > > > Just east of the PA981 overpass, east of Latrobe, > PA, > for one. That was in conjunction with the track pans > at that location. > And furthermore.... Pennsy Power II has a picture, top of page 285, said to be taken at Duncannon, PA. The bridge shown there looks a lot like the one at Latrobe. (Not claiming it is the one at Latrobe, just that the two look a lot alike). Very frustrating. Pennsy Power and Pennsy Power II have several photos looking west from a point west of the Latrobe bridge, and several looking east from a point east of the bridge, but none where the photographer turned around and took a picture of the bridge. Sigh. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Apparently-From: From: "Lady Of The Woods" Subject: [PRR] Model clubs Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 19:21:24 -0400 Looking for model clubs or private layout in Montgomery County PA. New to the list, great fan of the rail road. I would like to sit in on operating sessions and get ideas starting my own lay out. Focusing on the PRR transition era. Any information or help is greatly appreciated. Thank you, Bill _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 19:49:22 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Hall of Steam (Altoona PA) Does anyone know what happened to the Hall of Steam which did beautiful reproductions of Pennsy stuff years ago? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:59:37 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] water bridges Hello.... There is a picture in the little K-4s book,"Pennsylvania Railroad Steam Locomotives of Yesteryear-k-4" By Harry P. Albrecht,1976. On page 9 it shows a southbound K-4 and train near Wilmington,Del. in 1925. I suspect this to be closer to Newark,Del. This bridge spans all 3 or 4 tracks. Also there was one at Kittanning Point,just east of Horseshoe curve at one time. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] RE: MP 229 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 01:09:30 -0400 Howdy PRR- Talk and Ken. I sort of had a day off today - I just sat down in front of the PC and did what I wanted for a change. Thanks to Ken's Email, I did what I have been meaning to do for two years. Thanks Ken. Ken the new stuff will answer your first question as to the ARF key, however, I don't have a key to the engine house markings. I scanned the pages of the MP 229, from 11/1/44. I made an index of all the pages that includes the division assignments. Next on my list of things to do - Jerry's book report due back in July (I think) - Sorry Jerry, at the rate I'm going it will be next year!? Hopefully not! The pages are located @ http://www.wsbcos.com/mp229/mp299.htm or get to them from my trains page http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm Cos PS - I have to redo 3 pages - the cover, 8 and 20 - I should have them done this week. > Hi Wayne, > > I spotted on your web sit that you are planning some info about M.P. 229 > - Locomotive Assignments. > > How is that going? > > Some years ago, I stumbled on to a copy of a copy of M.P. 229. It cover > a period of 1949 to 1956. I would love to know if there is a key that > references the ARF numbers? > > Also, the lettering on the pilot of PRR steam engines (indicating there > Region/Division), how did that relate to a M.P. 229? > > Thanks, > Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS #694 > Bel Air, Maryland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 07:56:23 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] PRR EP22 #5809 rollout The Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS is proud to present pictures of Juniata Terminal Company's restored EMD EP22 in PRR Tuscan Red (with one gold stripe) as it was moved outdoors yesterday along with the #120 observation car. We are deeply indebted to Bennett Levin and the entire Juniata Terminal crew for their kind permission in allowing us to record the restoration process of this locomotive. Photographer and webmaster Steve Agostini stated that, besides seeing the finished engine in the sunlight in its PRR colors, one of the most pleasing aspects of the day was the reaction of the NJ Transit, Norfolk Southern, SEPTA and AMTRAK personnel in their trains as they came upon the #5809 with the #120 car behind it. The final photos can be seen by viewing the October 8th pictures at . Bill Morlitz, Superintendent PRRT&HS website ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 08:16:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR EP22 #5809 rollout From: Jerry Britton On 10/9/00 7:56 AM, prrbill (prrbill@Op.Net) wrote: > The Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS is proud to present pictures of > Juniata Terminal Company's restored EMD EP22 in PRR Tuscan Red (with one > > gold stripe) as it was moved outdoors yesterday along with the #120 > observation car. We are deeply indebted to Bennett Levin and the entire > > Juniata Terminal crew for their kind permission in allowing us to record > > the restoration process of this locomotive. Photographer and webmaster > Steve Agostini stated that, besides seeing the finished engine in the > sunlight in its PRR colors, one of the most pleasing aspects of the day > was the reaction of the NJ Transit, Norfolk Southern, SEPTA and AMTRAK > personnel in their trains as they came upon the #5809 with the #120 car > behind it. > > The final photos can be seen by viewing the October 8th pictures at > . > WOWWWWWW!!!!! Thanks for the photos, and thanks especially to Bennett Levin for saving her and making this all possible! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 09:46:14 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR EP22 #5809 rollout I hope you all enjoyed following the project to restore the 5809 to as close to its operating appearance in its golden years. My sons and I felt that it was important that this engine remain in Pennsylvania and wear the paint scheme that was most prevalent during its PRR days. The only compromises have been the pilot, safety devices mandated by the FRA, and the HEP accessories. The Levin family wants to publicly thank Al Hillman and his son Jacques, George Kusner, Nick Seaman, staff of the UP Republican Convention train who allowed use access to their E-9s and those who expressed an interest and yet were kind enough not to interrupt the work in progress. A very special thanks to Steve Agostini who spent countless hours recording the work and formatting the photographs in order that all of you could share in not only the progress of the undertaking, but also some of the excitement. We hope you enjoyed our collective effort. We also wanted to insure that 5809 would not become a static exhibit, but would be a running tribute to "The Standard Railroad of the Road". Hopefully, next year it will help welcome 1361 back to Altoona! (If we could only find a runable GG-1!) Thanks for your interest BL Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 10/9/00 7:56 AM, prrbill (prrbill@Op.Net) wrote: > > > The Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS is proud to present pictures of > > Juniata Terminal Company's restored EMD EP22 in PRR Tuscan Red (with one > > > > gold stripe) as it was moved outdoors yesterday along with the #120 > > observation car. We are deeply indebted to Bennett Levin and the entire > > > > Juniata Terminal crew for their kind permission in allowing us to record > > > > the restoration process of this locomotive. Photographer and webmaster > > Steve Agostini stated that, besides seeing the finished engine in the > > sunlight in its PRR colors, one of the most pleasing aspects of the day > > was the reaction of the NJ Transit, Norfolk Southern, SEPTA and AMTRAK > > personnel in their trains as they came upon the #5809 with the #120 car > > behind it. > > > > The final photos can be seen by viewing the October 8th pictures at > > . > > > WOWWWWWW!!!!! > > Thanks for the photos, and thanks especially to Bennett Levin for saving her > and making this all possible! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 11:16:23 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: [PRR] 5809 I knew this would happen; but an enormous amount of thanks for the restoration of 5809 must go the the executives and railroaders at Conrail. First we all must thank those executives who believed that a business car train must be hauled with appropiate power and saw that 4020, 4021, and 4022 were acquired and used for the intended purpose. Mainly, we all must thank those Conrail railroaders who worked at the Altoona Shops for the care and feeding they gave the 5809 while it was in their possession. If it had languished without their expressed care and concern, today it would be suited only for static display. The attention they gave the engine and the work they performed on it insured that would survive to see another day. Thanks to all, The Levin Family! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 11:18:40 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Trackside: Pennsy Under Wires From: Jerry Britton The new Morning Sun Book, "Trackside: Under Pennsy Wires", is hands-down one of their best! True, I might be biased as the book deals with areas near home -- mainline Paoli to Harrisburg, Atglen & Susquehanna, Columbia & Port Deposit, etc. -- but the images are superbly colorful and very, very sharp. Bruce Smith, planning to model Columbia, Pa., and the areas to the south, is gonna go nuts with this one (your book is in the mail, guy!)! Included are several shots of the anthracite coal dredging operation at Safe Harbor. Also, numerous shots of ice jams that threatened to close "The Port Road". Something I didn't know, is the PRR had to deal with the many streams that emptied off the hillsides into the Susquehanna River. As they were unpredictable and threatened the roadbed, the PRR built numerous flumes to carry the ends of the streams out ABOVE the roadbed where it dumped 30' or so into the river. Cool! There are a few construction shots of the construction of the Brenner Island Power Plant and some outstanding shots of the Shocks Mill Bridge from the hillside to the southwest. This book is a "must have", folks! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:15:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rushing Streams Jerry wrote about the difficulty in managing the streams running into the Susquehanna along the Port Road. A similar situation was at the northern end of the Belvidere Delaware Branch, at the junction with the Lackawanna's Old Main Line at Manunka Chunk; as in the case along the Susquehanna, the railroad is high above the river, in this case the Delaware of course. Complicating this was the Lackawanna's line, which emerged from the hillside through tunnels; and on the far side of the tunnels was a stream which had been diverted away from the Lackawanna's line by a flume. On several occasions (1887, 1913 I think) the stream got out of control and entered the tunnel; roaring down what must be a good grade, the stream emerged onto the PRR and DL&W junction and wiped out the roadbed. The first time it also got the agent's house, killing his wife and a guest; the second time, the signal tower (was this PRR or Lackawanna?) nearly went over the cliff. (Details are in "The Lackawanna Railroad in Northwest New Jersey," by Lowenthal and Greenberg.) I visited the tunnels about 20 years ago; the line is a steep scramble above Route 46, south of the Water Gap, and I imagine the tunnels and junction site still are there. The PRR grade, heading for Belvidere, is clearly visible on the west side of Rt 46 where it used to cross the road, a few miles further south (where 46 turns to the east). John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 14:23:57 +0000 From: Roger Hensley Subject: [PRR] Indiana Model RR Meet Central Indiana Division N.M.R.A. http://cid.railfan.net/ Model Railroad Show and Meet - Open to the Public Saturday November 4, 2000 Location: Terre Haute National Guard Armory 3614 Maple Ave., Terre Haute, IN Time: 10 AM to 4 PM Admission: $3.00 per person. Children 12 and under FREE with paying Adult Dealer Tables - Operating Layouts - Contests Scheduled Clinics: Dick Butters, "Tuning up axles and trucks" Mike Nicoletti, "Digital Cab Control" Ted Luce, "Painting Brass Locomotives" Contests: Photo and Slide Model Contests & Displays - All categories Favorite Train contest will be "open loads". Bring in those flats & special cars with those open loads. For additional information, maps and more, drop by the CID website and take a look. Roger Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://cid.railfan.net == == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 19:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 revisited, Todd, I was in contact with the dealer today who mentioned the paint job on the PSC X-42's as being wrong. Here is more. He was talking about the Freight Car Color version with Circle Keystone and white lettering. To his eyes the color is way to Red. I have never seen any so I can not comment. It may just come down to what someone thinks freight car color is or should be. He did not see any of the Tuscan Red versions (if there is any) so I can not share any info there. Todd, which version do you have? If Tuscan Red, does it look "right" to you?. If Freight Car Color, does that look "right" to you. There may be no mistake after all. When I get around to paint mine I will be using Scalecoat Tuscan Red with the Gold or Dulux Gold Stripes (not sure which is correct yet) and Lettering. The 1952ish era.....Gary Gary, please don't tell me that the PSC cars have a painting mistake. If you find out what this is can you post itto the board? Todd Horton Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 20:04:37 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 revisited, GAry and all, You wrote: >>Getting back to the X-42 thread for a moment.<< Snip >>I searched the archives here on PRR-Talk for painting tips for this car. I found what I believe will be helpful when the time comes to paint it. I plan on painting this with the Passenger Equipment Style Color and Lettering which will be Tuscan Red Paint and Gold Leaf Lettering. Acoording to the archved posts here, this scheme would have been used in the early 50's time period. Would this have indeed used the Gold Leaf Lettering or Dulux Gold Lettering?<< Gary, I believe that the stripe would have been PRR BUFF and Tuscan Red. I think it was a bit late for gold leaf. >>Or possibly could these cars used either color during this short time frame. We all know the X-29's that were used in REA Passenger Service were painted standard Freight Car Color. Has any new info been found since the posts 2 years ago stateing these X-42 cars were indeed painted Tuscan Red and NOT Freight Car Color when wearing the Passenger Lettering and Stripes?<< Yes the RR at the time viewed these cars more like Passenger equipment than general frieght. >>A nice model like this needs to be painted correctly so any additional info is helpful. I learned today that the Precission Scale Factory Painted X-42 Models were actually painted and decaled wrong. (Didn't catch what the goof was) but I would like to avoid thier results. Any new info is appreciated......Thanks, Gary<< Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 20:17:12 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] Sperry Rail Car Mark and All, I did see the Sperry Rail car in the RPM room while i was talking with Bill Wisher from Walthers. The car is certainly a departure from the Walther of even the past couple of years, I think they are realizing that we as modelers expect more and are willing to pay the price and in turn are realizing more sales. We will see more and more projects from Walthers that are more like what we expect from them. I know they are working on a line of streamlined Stainless steel passenger cars to be released in the near future. They will be "train specific" rather than generic cars. They have target dates for release but I will know more after the bhig Chicago MRIA Hobby Show coming up next week. I know this because a few friends and myself did the research work for them. Greg Martin Mark's original message... << Has anyone seen one of the preproduction Sperry Rail Detection Cars that Walther's is about to release ? I have seen the picture in the newest MR,but was hoping for insights from someone like a convention attendee that might have seen the model up close(or even operating). Mark Pettey Naples,FL<< ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 revisited, Greg, This car was built in 1950. Still the Gold Leaf era. Dulux didn't come in until mid 1952 according to the PRRT&HS Publication: Passenger Car Painting and Lettering. Now according to some posts on the PRR-Talk archive, this car would have originally had the Freight Car Color and Circle Keystone. I am assuming these posts are correct. Then there is a statement that the X-42's were painted Tuscan Red in or around 1952, I have to check the archives again to make sure I got that right on the date. If before mid 1952 then the stripes would have to be Gold Leaf. After mid 52' than the stripes are Dulux according to Passenger Car painting instructions. So I am again assuming I could stripe this in either color and be correct. Just depends on what era I am sticking to. Dulux would span a greater time period and also show up on the car better. But Gold Leaf is nice. Still undecided to which way to go...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] MP 229 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:50:05 -0400 Thanks to Bob Netzlof, I can testify that staying up till 1:00am is not the best thing to do - even if its for the PRR. However, I did finish all the MP 229 pages today. Please find them at http://www.wsbcos.com/mp229/mp229.htm and not wsbcos.com/mp229/mp299.htm like I posted last night. Cos President and CBW Cos Communications, Inc. Home of the Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road Home Page Railroad Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] X-42 revisited, Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:04:31 -0500 The latest issue of the Keystone had an insert for purchasing lettering arrangement drawings. The title of this sheet is "Take the Guess Work Out of Your Modeling and Research!" There are 3 listed for the X-42. I assume these to be freight car color/circle keystone, tuscan/stripes, and shadow keystone. I ordered all three, and depending on turnaround time, will have good info soon. Hopefully these drawings will have dates on them. Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:45:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 revisited, In a message dated 10/9/00 7:46:57 PM Central Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << If before mid 1952 then the stripes would have to be Gold Leaf. After mid 52' than the stripes are Dulux according to Passenger Car painting instructions. So I am again assuming I could stripe this in either color and be correct. Just depends on what era I am sticking to. Dulux would span a greater time period and also show up on the car better. But Gold Leaf is nice. Still undecided to which way to go >> I too am considering the tuscan with gold stripes scheme. However, we should all be aware that there is a little bit of doubt that any cars beyond the one in the builder's photo ever had this scheme, if even that one did for long. If that doubt doesn't bother you (it doesn't me) then come along merrily with me and we can both paint it in tuscan and gold. I will use the buff color only because it shows up better, if the prototype police will look the other way. I haven't seen the factory painted version of the car, but the comment about it being too red is probably being made by people who have been seeing Pennsy freight car color as tuscan red for 50 years in the model industry. Or they could be comparing it to the Bowser roundroofs which are (probably correctly) painted a darker red to match the color in the late 50's and 60's. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:26:03 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: [Fwd: RE: [PRR] X-42 revisited,] There are 3 listed for the X-42. I assume these to be freight car color/circle keystone, tuscan/stripes, and shadow keystone. I ordered all three, and depending on turnaround time, will have good info soon. Hopefully these drawings will have dates on them. Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting. I'll be interested in the answers. I don't ever remember seeing a PRR head end car with stripes. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:28:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Under Wire book PRR List, Ditto Jerry's enthusiasm for the Morning Sun book. For us near oldsters (sorry folks, if we remember being trackside during this period we are there!) it is a tremendous trip down memory lane. For the youngsters that never experienced it this is a super introduction to the great electrical plant that was the Pennsy. No other operation, including the NH, was of this magnitude and this book presents it properly. Do not miss out on this one. It is only an e-mail away at Merchandise Service! Evan RCT&HS 346 PS As a youngster I and a friend made it a late afternoon habit in the summer to sit by the tracks at Kinzers behind Young's Case tractor dealership to watch the westbound passenger zip by at 80 to 85 per behind a GG-1 pulling around a dozen and a half cars. The first time we did it we were to far down the bank and while sitting were pushed back by the wave of air off the train (and the dirt). The big, fast, quiet electrics made a lasting impression on this line. The Kinzers shot in the book is just across a county road from the tractor dealership where the road bridged the line. Also, am really dating myself as I can still remember this stretch being four tracks. Oh, the price you pay to have those memories! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [Fwd: RE: [PRR] X-42 revisited,] Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:42:08 -0500 Wayner's "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad", page 6, has a photo of X-42 2542 in the stripes scheme. Railroad Model Craftsman recently published an article on the X-42. I think it was in the last 6 months or so. I'm trying to find that issue. I know it had drawings, as well as some other info. Andy -----Original Message----- Interesting. I'll be interested in the answers. I don't ever remember seeing a PRR head end car with stripes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:41:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Model clubs (Montgomery County PA) Some in the area that I can think of: Greater Abington Society of Model Train Engineers (or similar name)---layout in basement of Montessori school in Fort Washington; another in the old Ogontz station of the Reading at Old York Road in Elkins Park; another in Richboro (not too far into Bucks Country); another in Lansdale, in a building just a few blocks from the Reading station, backed up on the Doylestown branch; one in Phoenixville. Haven't been near any of these for over ten years---visited with kid(s) on Xmas open houses (not a modeler myself). Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Fwd: RE: [PRR] X-42 revisited,] Garry, Andy That same car is also pictured in Pennsy Power 3. Same Car, different angle view. If this indeed is a builders photo, which it looks like it is, then the Tuscan and Stripes were applied originally in 1950? However, it could also be an officail photo of the new paint job of 1952. No definit answers yet....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] RE: MP229 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:07:43 -0400 Fixed the next problem - someday I'll proof the stuff before I post it! Thanks to all who checked the site! Cos > Hi Wayne, > Glad to see you got MP229 on line. > Unfortunately, page 1 "Road Forman Code" is showing a site error. > Hope you can fix this. > Thanks. Ken Meyer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] X42 in stripes Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:15:20 -0500 Gary and all, I found the RMC issue (Oct. '99) with the X42 article. It states that they all seem to have been built with the circle keystone logo. The author also states that at least one got the stripe scheme by April, 1951. That puts it in the Gold Leaf era. Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] X42 in stripes Andy, Neat! That pins it down a little further. My Dad used to get RMC for 40+ years. I continued after he died and just gave it up about a year ago. It got to naroow gaugey for me. Looks like I have to pick up that particular back issue with the X-42. Thanks Andy. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] MP229 Chicago Question Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:59:18 -0500 Thanks, Wayne, for making the MP229 available. You know posting such material will only bring questions. I have a few regarding the Chicago Terminal Division. The MP229 shows that locos in the CTD were assigned to either one of two foreman. To me, this implies two locations. I only know of 2 enginehouses, the 63rd St. enginehouse at the 59th St. yard on the Panhandle, and the 16th St. enginehouse at the Union Station coachyards. Are these the 2 locations? I'm curious since for 1 foreman, there are 23 0-6-0's and 16 2-8-0's, and the other foreman has 15 0-6-0's, 7 0-8-0's, and 27 2-8-0's. I'm guessing the 23 0-6-0's and 16 2-8-0's are assigned at the coachyards. I can understand the large number of 0-6-0's since they seem to show up in photos switching the coachyards. But why so many 2-8-0's? Would these be used for switching the Polk St. freighthouse? For transfer runs to the other yards? I'd appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on the loco situation in Chicago. Thanks, Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:22:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-42 an experiment? Gary, I'm sorry I have come into this a bit late. Just playing the Devil's advocate here, is there any reason to believe that the passenger scheme was anything more than an experiment? Have you seen more than one painted that way? The Pennsy like other businesses tried paint schemes on equipment, photographed them and then chose not to implement them. The only photos I've seen of the passenger scheme were shot at, I believe, Altoona. Photos of these cars in service can be hard to find. Have you ever seen this scheme in service? The shadow Keystone scheme would have been available by the mid 1950s. I have seen photos of the X-42s in this scheme so we know they were repainted into that scheme. This would carry the cars into the early 1960s, at least. If the passenger scheme did exist, it must have been fairly short lived. Just more food for thought. Ed Martin...banned by Ed Hall Director of Cajon Division, P. C. R., N. M. R. A. ...member of the Gang of Two ...a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:04:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR EP22 #5809 rollout <> Another WOW!!! What great pictures. It was fun to browse the pictures and watch the process take place. A special thanks to the Levin Family for taking these steps to preserve this locomotive. The shot of the 5809 and the 120 is spectacular! I can't wait to see this engine up close and personal! Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:45:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Q's ? ? PRR List, Two quick questions: 1) What the heck is DGLE? Have ask a few of the SPF out here in Denver and have drawn blank stares. Best guess is Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. Is Brunswick green not a correct term for this color? 2) Juniata Terminal where the E unit was restored. Where is it and what service do they offer?? Noted the overhead so I know it is not in Juniata. Thanks in advance, Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:54:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Q's ? ? From: Jerry Britton On 10/10/00 8:45 AM, RDG2124@aol.com (RDG2124@aol.com) wrote: > Two quick questions: > > 1) What the heck is DGLE? Have ask a few of the SPF out here in Denver and > have drawn blank stares. Best guess is Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. You got it! > Is > Brunswick green not a correct term for this color? This is a name fabricated by model and paint manufacturers. I guess "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel" would run too long on paint bottle labels! > > 2) Juniata Terminal where the E unit was restored. Where is it and what > service do > they offer?? Noted the overhead so I know it is not in Juniata. > It's located outside of Philadelphia. They also own the PRR business car #120, "PENNSYLVANIA". I don't know what business they are in, but their principal/owner is on this list! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Q's ? ? Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:45:35 -0400 Evan, You are correct in your guess of DGLE. This must be an acronym concockted by the SPF (slobbering pennsy freaks) guys, since the correct PRR term I believe was "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel- PRR Shade". This is how all the paint colors on the PRR were described, be it buildings or rolling stock. Brunswick Green was never used by the Railroad, nor was Tuscan Red. They were always described as the example above states. The story goes, Brunswick and Tuscan were names applied by the major paint suppplier, DuPont, as trade names for their EMRON line of epoxy based machinery enamels of those approximate colors. It certainly was easier to say Brunswick than DGLE-PRR Shade. Juniata Terminal is a shop facility owned by Bennet Levin and his sons. I forget what the facility was originally, but they use it to restore, repair and upgrade private passenger cars for use on Amtrak & private lines. Apparently they have expanded into locomotive repair & restoration also. Their facility is adjacent to the PRR mainline in the Frankfurt Junction area of Philadelphia. This is in the area of Shore Tower where the line seperated to cross the Deleware River over the Delair Bridge to Southern New Jersey. They have a site on the PRR list. Perhaps you can contact them direct for more specific information. Hope I have been helpfull. Buzz Charles.Burnley@Conective.com -----Original Message----- From: RDG2124@aol.com [mailto:RDG2124@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 8:46 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Q's ? ? PRR List, Two quick questions: 1) What the heck is DGLE? Have ask a few of the SPF out here in Denver and have drawn blank stares. Best guess is Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. Is Brunswick green not a correct term for this color? 2) Juniata Terminal where the E unit was restored. Where is it and what service do they offer?? Noted the overhead so I know it is not in Juniata. Thanks in advance, Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:04:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Q's ? ? From: Jerry Britton On 10/10/00 10:45 AM, Burnley, Charles (Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com) wrote: > Juniata Terminal is a shop facility owned by Bennet Levin and his sons... > > They have a site on the PRR list. Perhaps you can contact them direct for > more specific information. > You can't have a "site" on a list. If they have a web site, please provide the URL. I would like to add a link to it from "Keystone Crossings". Bennet, if you don't have a site and would like one under PENNSYRR.COM, please contact me. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Q's ? ? Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:31:13 -0400 Jerry, Sorry for using the wrong terminology, as I am not Web, or for that matter, very Computer literate. I have seen messages from Bennet on the PRR "list" and thought he was a member, or whatever. Sorry if you-all got your undies in a knot. I was trying to help someone with an answer to their questions, not be a webmaster, or computer wizard. My interest is the PRR, NOT surfing the Web. By the way. What is a URL?? C.Burnley Jr. PRRT&HS #271 Phila Chapt. #48 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:04 AM To: Burnley, Charles; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Q's ? ? On 10/10/00 10:45 AM, Burnley, Charles (Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com) wrote: > Juniata Terminal is a shop facility owned by Bennet Levin and his sons... > > They have a site on the PRR list. Perhaps you can contact them direct for > more specific information. > You can't have a "site" on a list. If they have a web site, please provide the URL. I would like to add a link to it from "Keystone Crossings". Bennet, if you don't have a site and would like one under PENNSYRR.COM, please contact me. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:57:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] DGLE/Juniata Terminal PRR List, To all of you SPF's (Serious Pennsy Fans), thanks for the responses on the paint color "DGLE" and the Juniata Terminal enterprise. Happy Trails, Evan RCT&HS 346 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:42:22 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Q's ? ? Hey Yuze Gize, I don't want to fire up this thread again, but... Jerry replies to Evan: E>>1) What the heck is DGLE? Have ask a few of the SPF out here in Denver and have drawn blank stares. Best guess is Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. J>You got it! E>>Is Brunswick green not a correct term for this color? I say roll your own. I have a reference to Brunswick Green being the same as PRR "Dark Green Locomotive Paint" as yearly as 1940ish on a set of Pullman Prints when at teh time Pullman was paint 4 cars into "Brunswick Green" from Gliden Paint (an online shipper for PRR). J>This is a name fabricated by model and paint manufacturers. I guess "Dark Green Locomotive Enamel" would run too long on paint bottle labels! I would go so far as to say that. Remember KCS had a color that was along the same line as "DGLP" but no quite as dark. Evan, again call it what you like either is correct in my book... but you will find it on offical PRR drawings as either DGLE or DGLP. Greg Martin outlaw member of the Martin Bros gang.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:55:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] RARE Life Like Proto Locomotives From: Jerry Britton Folks, "Merchandise Service" has just acquired most of the PRR inventory from a guy who previously sold only through the show circuit. It'll take me a while to get everything added into my online system, but I have gotten all of the Life Like Proto series locomotives in. You'll find an extensive collection of long out-of-production PRR locos, including SW's, PA's, FA's, GP's, and E's, including DGLE E7's!!! There are only a few of each type/road number. They will be sold electronically on a first-come, first-serve basis. Once each sells out, they will no longer show up on a search. Get 'em while you can! Visit http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com and enter the eStore. Search for Manufacturer = Life Like All of those in limited quantities will have "lit match" icons to the right. Happy shopping! P.S. Over the next few days I will be adding PRR items from IHC, Atlas, and Bachmann Spectrum. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:23:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II Question I have David Messer's E-mail address if you would like to voice your thoughts about the "Triumph" books.��-Mark L-�� ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] " SO " Tower Scuttelbutt was that SO was gone but what did I see walking back to the Viaduct. SO Tower, Clean, new stone in the parking lot, even new window shades! Anyone know what its being used for? I don't hear anyone talking about Railfest. guess I didn't miss anything?----Mark L.-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR Freight Car trucks... Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:00:13 -0400 Hi all, I've added a section on my web site about PRR freight car trucks. It's at http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRFreightCarTrucks.html So far it has copies of two mid-late 1940's PRR documents that tabulate truck classes and contain info on which classes of trucks were used on which classes of cars (including car #'s for some classes). I've also added the truck information to the pages for individual freight car classes... (links off of http://prr.railfan.net/freight) A major part of what still needs to be done is to correlate model trucks with PRR classes. If you can help out with this, drop me a note! I'm also looking for photos of members of various classes of PRR freight car trucks and for diagrams for each class of truck (I have diagrams for 4 classes so far...) Lastly, if you have any other PRR documents that describe or list freight car trucks, please let me know. So far the bulk of my info is from two documents from the 40's that Ian Clasper sent me. The pages still need earlier and later info. John Teichmoeller refers to a 1964 truck list in his hopper book. Does anyone on the list have a copy of this? I'd appreciate any info that you can supply to add to the pages! Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 06:29:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Big pile of PRR steam photos Just found this URL: http://nietzsche.mit.edu/~auro/trains/photos/auro/ROSTER.HTM He has a large collection of PRR steam photos. The collection seems to be growing even as I write, as his "What's new" page has entries dated yesterday. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:08:21 -0400 From: Robert Wickus Subject: [PRR] List member needs help! Does anyone on the list know where I can obtain 4 sets of Central Valley passenger truck mounting kits? I have four Lambert heavyweight Pullman cars, painted for PRR (what else). I have the necessary Central Valley 6-wheel passenger trucks but desperately need the bolsters and other mounting hardware. Please contact me off list if you can help. Any information will be greatly appreciared. Thanks in advance, Bob Wickus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] USRA composite gondolas Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:40:48 -0500 Hello all, I have just assembled a Intermountain HO scale PRR composite side gondola. What service where these cars used in and and what time frame are they good for? Thank you for any help on this. Jeremy Helms Bellevue, Nebraska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:40:46 -0400 Hey all, Does anyone know if there is a standard whistle pattern sounded at grade crossings? Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 --- Matt Sichel wrote: > Hey all, > > Does anyone know if there is a standard whistle > pattern sounded at grade > crossings? > Yes. Long, long, short, long; the last to be prolonged until the locomotive has entered the crossing. Whether trains are actually doing that is open to debate now that the ICC, which set out the rule, no longer exists. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:21:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Two longs, a short and a long On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Matt Sichel wrote: >Hey all, > >Does anyone know if there is a standard whistle pattern sounded at grade >crossings? > >Matt > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net www.bluemoon.net - The Blue Moon Internet Corp. V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network alcoman.Railfan.net - Homepage ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:40:07 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Burnley, Charles Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:48 AM To: 'Matt Sichel' Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Matt, Yes there is. It consists of two (2) long sounds, one (1) short sound, and one (1) long sound. The last long sound should be timed to begin just as the locomotive arrives at the road, and continue until the locomotive is across the road. This probably the most common whistle signal as it is probably the most frequently used, and most frequently heard. It is commonly depicted in written text (rule book) as ____ ____ o ____. (Two long, One short, One long). There are many other whistle signals used by the railroads, and the are pretty much all standard across the industry. With the advent of reliable, portable two-way radios many of the other standard indications are seldom used, or so remote from the public ear, seldom heard. If you are interested I can send you a photocopy from a Pennsy Rule Book depicting the other whistle signals. Charles.Burnley@Conectiv.com PRRT&HS #271 Phila Chapt.#48 -----Original Message----- From: Matt Sichel [mailto:popsichel@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 8:41 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Hey all, Does anyone know if there is a standard whistle pattern sounded at grade crossings? Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RE: Whistle rule Even though there is a standard for whistle blowing like already mentioned, I have heard from old timers who lived near the tracks, you could tell from the way the engineer blew the whistle, who that particular engineer was. Seems they each had their own technique. Harry Rais, who was a K4 engineer (#612) on the New York & Long Branch during the late 1950's had a specific way he blew. Everyone knew he was coming through town. So I read anyway......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 100 16:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Burnley, Charles scribit: > > Yes there is. It consists of two (2) long sounds, one (1) short sound, and > one (1) long sound. The last long sound should be timed to begin just as > the locomotive arrives at the road, and continue until the locomotive is > across the road. Charles, I'd be interested to see if what you write in your second sentence is actually written down somewhere. I _have_ seen the latter portion in rulebooks, i.e., that the last long sound is to be held until the train is across the road. However, I have _not_ seen the former portion, i.e., that the last long sound is to be begun when the locomotive is at the road. In my view, for a train at any significant speed, it would not make for a long sound at all. > There are many other whistle signals used by the railroads, and the are > pretty much all standard across the industry. I'll have to disagree. Two shorts is used on Amtrak as "go forward" (if stopped) or stop (if moving). However, this does not mean the same thing on southern railroads. Don't ask me right now to tell you what it is, as my rule books are at home, not here at work. > With the advent of reliable, portable two-way radios many of the other > standard indications are seldom used, or so remote from the public ear, > seldom heard. Indeed. What does 5 shorts mean? :-) -- Mark -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:54:26 -0400 Mark, I agree with you on not having this "detail" in the rule book. However, I live on the former PRSL Winslow to Cape May NJ mainline in Dorothy NJ, which is now classified as an "industrial siding" (60 some odd miles long). This line is now part of NS/CSX. For the last 20 years I have enjoyed an average of 2 trains per day, 5 or 6 days a week. One with about 80 loads down to the power plant, and one with empty's back to Pavonia Yard & points west. The speed limit is about 40mph thru town and there a about a half-dozen grade crossings within a mile-& 1/2. Two of these are at each end of our (country) block. Personal observation of the trains is where I came up with my second sentence. Common practice here is to begin the last long sound just before the grade crossing and to hold it until clearing the other side. It is still a "long" sound. You can usually tell local crews from foreign crews at night by the way they blow for the crossings. Local crews who are more familiar with where the roads actually are will disreguard sounding the horn at the whistle post and wait until they are closer to the grade crossing and then give 4 brief toots holding the last one a little longer than the first 3. Foreign crews will begin sounding their horn AT the whistle post and blow the standard 2-1-1 for the entire trip thru town, waking every single resident from a sound sleep. That's the way is down here in God's country. The rule book only sets standards, the crews apparently modify them to suit their particular preference. Thanks for listening. C. Burnley Jr. PRRT&HS #271 Phila Chapt. #48 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej [mailto:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] Sent: None To: Burnley, Charles Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Burnley, Charles scribit: > > Yes there is. It consists of two (2) long sounds, one (1) short sound, and > one (1) long sound. The last long sound should be timed to begin just as > the locomotive arrives at the road, and continue until the locomotive is > across the road. Charles, I'd be interested to see if what you write in your second sentence is actually written down somewhere. I _have_ seen the latter portion in rulebooks, i.e., that the last long sound is to be held until the train is across the road. However, I have _not_ seen the former portion, i.e., that the last long sound is to be begun when the locomotive is at the road. In my view, for a train at any significant speed, it would not make for a long sound at all. > There are many other whistle signals used by the railroads, and the are > pretty much all standard across the industry. I'll have to disagree. Two shorts is used on Amtrak as "go forward" (if stopped) or stop (if moving). However, this does not mean the same thing on southern railroads. Don't ask me right now to tell you what it is, as my rule books are at home, not here at work. > With the advent of reliable, portable two-way radios many of the other > standard indications are seldom used, or so remote from the public ear, > seldom heard. Indeed. What does 5 shorts mean? :-) -- Mark -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:58:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Whistle rule My Grandfather was a PRR conductor, and years after he retired he'd remark " there goes so & so" as a train came through Alliance - even when they changed to diesels he could still recognize a few.... Dick Ross "all the switchmen knew by the engine's moans that the man at the throttle was KC Jones" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Whistle rule Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:00:30 -0700 Still true today. I heard residents near the BNSF main here say they can identify individual horn blowing styles. John > ---------- > From: mittner@webtv.net[SMTP:mittner@webtv.net] > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 12:18 PM > To: Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] RE: Whistle rule > > Even though there is a standard for whistle blowing like already > mentioned, I have heard from old timers who lived near the tracks, you > could tell from the way the engineer blew the whistle, who that > particular engineer was. Seems they each had their own technique. Harry > Rais, who was a K4 engineer (#612) on the New York & Long Branch during > the late 1950's had a specific way he blew. Everyone knew he was coming > through town. So I read anyway......Gary > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose X-29 in REA/PRR markings Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:11:03 -0400 Gentlemen: I am just about to start work on 4 of these cars this weekend. I have one basic question though. What color should the trucks, underframe (i.e.: center sill, brake rigging, etc.) and wheel sets be? I am modelling the Pennsy from the late '30's to late '40's. Thank you in advance for any information or suggestions that you can offer. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:59:23 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose X-29 in REA/PRR markings Ted Andrews asked: >I am just about to start work on 4 of these cars this weekend. I have one >basic question though. > >What color should the trucks, underframe (i.e.: center sill, brake rigging, >etc.) and wheel sets be? I am modelling the Pennsy from the late '30's to >late '40's. underframe: MUD (seriously, freight car color-FCC) underbody appliances (brakes etc): FCC or black trucks: FCC when new, black when replaced etc wheels: oily dirty black, minimal rust unless brand new Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:48:05 -0500 From: John Sheets Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Re: whistle signal at grade crossings Most RR's including PRR define the "--0-" grade crossing signal as part of their operating rules, so existence of ICC is not an issue. PRR rule 14L: "--0- Approaching public crossings at grade, to be prolonged until crossing is reached, unless otherwise provided; also when view is obscured by weather and other conditions, approaching interlockings, stations, yards or other points where men may be at work." About the only exception is where cities or municipalities have "no whistle" ordinances, such as here in Chicago. Even then the last part of the above rule applies John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:07:14 -0400 From: Robert Zeolla Subject: [PRR] Track Length One of the things I recently realized is missing when I go to area operating sessions is the sound of the click-clack of the trains going across the rail joints due to the extensive use of flex track. This brings up a few questions: Around what year did welded rail become the norm on mainlines? If I wanted to replicate the actual length between joints on a prototype Pennsy mainline, what distance would that be? In HO, three foot flex track comes to about 261 scale feet, and a nine inch snap track scales out to about 65 feet. Are either close? Thanks ... Bob Zeolla ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:19:20 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Track Length Bob, Before welded rail, the standard length for rail segments was 39 feet. That was the mill std. All RRs used it. This odd size was chosen so that rails could fit in the standard 40 ft gondola! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Robert Zeolla wrote: > > One of the things I recently realized is missing when I go to area > operating sessions is the sound of the click-clack of the trains going > across the rail joints due to the extensive use of flex track. > > This brings up a few questions: > > Around what year did welded rail become the norm on mainlines? > > If I wanted to replicate the actual length between joints on a prototype > Pennsy mainline, what distance would that be? In HO, three foot flex > track comes to about 261 scale feet, and a nine inch snap track scales > out to about 65 feet. Are either close? > > Thanks ... > > Bob Zeolla > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> > eLerts > It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! > http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/7/_/_/_/971445316/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@egroups.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Length Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:38:47 -0400 Bob: The Pennsy began putting welded rail in the late 1950's. For the most part, welded rail seemed to be put in sporatically in isolated areas. Due to the financial condition of many railroads in the northeast, weled rail really did not become common until the formation of Conrail in 1976. The standard length of the new jointed rail section was 39 feet. However, the Pennsylvania did have a practice of "cropping" rails. Over time, the rail would tend to flatten out at its ends. In addition, the joint bars and its contact area on the rail would wear due to fiction. What would result would be a loose joint no matter how tight the bolts were tightened. The Pennsylvania recycled this "bent worn" rail by cropping off 1-1/2 feet of rail on both ends of the rail. The flattened and worn sections of rail are removed and new holes would be drilled for joint bars. So, cropped rail would be 39 - 3 = 36 feet. I have seen 33 feet cropped rail as well. The Pennsylvania would install cropped rail for miles at a time during major rehabilitation projects. Based on track charts that I have, the PRR installed cropped rail well into the '50's; I think that I did see information that it was done in the early '60's but that was rare. So, I you want to model jointed track on the PRR, you can use 39 foot or 36 foot rail lengths. For example, have one section of track with 39 foot rail lenghts but then have another section of track with 36 foot rail lengths to reflect PRR's maintenance practices. I don;t think that you should mix them together. I hope that this helps. Ted Andrews (a "railfan" in more ways than one!!) -----Original Message----- From: Robert Zeolla [mailto:robert.zeolla@oracle.com] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 9:07 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Track Length One of the things I recently realized is missing when I go to area operating sessions is the sound of the click-clack of the trains going across the rail joints due to the extensive use of flex track. This brings up a few questions: Around what year did welded rail become the norm on mainlines? If I wanted to replicate the actual length between joints on a prototype Pennsy mainline, what distance would that be? In HO, three foot flex track comes to about 261 scale feet, and a nine inch snap track scales out to about 65 feet. Are either close? Thanks ... Bob Zeolla ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:00:05 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car trucks... Bless you Rob. Just last night I was wondering whether I should (could) put Bowser 2D-F8s under my F&C GR gondolas. This morning, before I could ask, you provided the answer! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Robert Schoenberg wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've added a section on my web site about PRR freight car trucks. > It's at http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRFreightCarTrucks.html > > So far it has copies of two mid-late 1940's PRR documents that > tabulate truck classes and contain info on which classes of trucks > were used on which classes of cars (including car #'s for some classes). > > I've also added the truck information to the pages for individual freight > car classes... (links off of http://prr.railfan.net/freight) > > A major part of what still needs to be done is to correlate model trucks > with PRR classes. If you can help out with this, drop me a note! > > I'm also looking for photos of members of various classes of PRR freight car > trucks and > for diagrams for each class of truck (I have diagrams for 4 classes so > far...) > > Lastly, if you have any other PRR documents that describe or list freight > car trucks, > please let me know. So far the bulk of my info is from two documents from > the 40's that Ian Clasper > sent me. The pages still need earlier and later info. John Teichmoeller > refers to a 1964 truck list in his hopper book. Does anyone on the list > have a copy of this? > > I'd appreciate any info that you can supply to add to the pages! > > Thanks! > > Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:55:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length From: Jerry Britton On 10/13/00 10:38 AM, Andrews, Ted (Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com) wrote: > One of the things I recently realized is missing when I go to area > operating sessions is the sound of the click-clack of the trains going > across the rail joints due to the extensive use of flex track. > > This brings up a few questions: > > Around what year did welded rail become the norm on mainlines? > > If I wanted to replicate the actual length between joints on a prototype > > Pennsy mainline, what distance would that be? In HO, three foot flex > track comes to about 261 scale feet, and a nine inch snap track scales > out to about 65 feet. Are either close? > Cutting all your joints down to 36-39' sure would be a lot of work. I wonder if you might accomplish the "look" and "sound" you desire by using a Dremel tool and a cutting blade to lightly "score" flex track to the lengths we are discussing. What's everyone else think about this approach? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Length Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:44:25 -0400 Hi Bob, I'm not sure about when welded rail became common. I would guess it was beginning to be used in the early 60's with increased regularity. Standard rail length was 39'-0". Shorter pieces cut from std.lengths would be used as required for turnouts, crossovers, etc, etc. Rail joints were random in each rail (i.e. they were not purposely staggered, or placed across from each other. They just fell where they fell. I would suspect certain conditions dictated "standard" spacing, but the norm appears to be random. On my H.O. PRR layout I use 3' flex track and don't worry about simulating the 39' rail lengths. I have recently started modeling in "O"Scale (2-rail) and use flex-track here as well. Because of it's larger size I do simulate the 39' rail lengths by cutting a shallow groove in the top of the rail w/ a razor saw and then ACC "Right-of-Way" dummy rail joiners to the sides of the rail to complete the effect. I don't know if anyone makes a similar product on H.O. or not, but the razor cut might give you the clickty-clack effect you desire. Hope this helps. Anyone else out there have any ideas?? C.Burnley Jr. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Zeolla [mailto:robert.zeolla@oracle.com] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 10:07 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Track Length One of the things I recently realized is missing when I go to area operating sessions is the sound of the click-clack of the trains going across the rail joints due to the extensive use of flex track. This brings up a few questions: Around what year did welded rail become the norm on mainlines? If I wanted to replicate the actual length between joints on a prototype Pennsy mainline, what distance would that be? In HO, three foot flex track comes to about 261 scale feet, and a nine inch snap track scales out to about 65 feet. Are either close? Thanks ... Bob Zeolla ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] ALCo RS book Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:47:49 -0500 I am wondering if anyone out there in cyberland knows where one could obtain a copy of the Withers PRR diesel series book volume number 1 for the ALCo RS units? I am looking to try and get one if they are still available from anyone. Thanks for any help in this. Jeremy Helms Bellevue, Nebraska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:35:24 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Book Review - "Trackside..." Hi Y'all, Well, my copy of "Trackside Under Pennsy Wires with James P. Shuman" by Jeremy F. Plant (Morning Sun Books) arrived last night, and I can only say WOW!!! Right from the front cover shot of the coal slurry unloading facility on Lake Clarke to the back cover shot of racing trains on the C&PD and A&S...WOW!!! If anyone still wonders why I plan to model this stretch of the PRR, you should look through the last 40 pages of this book!! Spectacular!! In particular, the views of the Turkey Hill area and the flume at Frey's Run show you what I hope a portion of my layout will look like. I do have a couple of questions... Does anyone have any additional photos of the flumes? I am looking for more information on the support structure and any details of the inside...since now I have to model one! Additionally, on P 108-109, there is a SPECTACULAR 2 page view of Safe Harbor (look for the same photo when I build my layout ) with some interesting little details. On the lower right can be seen the siding which dives under the C&PD and A&S going to the coal slurry loading area along Conestoga Creek. When was this siding built? Do any of you have photos of the bridge over this siding on the C&PD? On the wall (the extension of the dam to the right of the powerhouse) there appears to be an 0-?-0 tank locomotive. We've discussed PP&L's fireless switchers...is this a coal fired loco? The switchback siding serving the dam appears to end before the bridge. I'd always thought it went under the bridge... Overall, I think this is a fantastic book, with excellent photography. The number of "new" locations are staggering. I did notice some minor errors creeping in here and there, but given Mr. Plant's comments about Mr. Shuman's labeling system (or lack thereof) these aren't too surprising. No flames PLEASE...I simply present these comments as an attempt to clarify the historic record, and what is to be commended as the best documentation of PRR's electric freight branches ever produced. p92 The explanation that the name "Lake Siding" came from the flood of '36 is not completely accurate. In fact, a "lake" existed at that location from the original construction of the A&S (1905-6) which was named Kerbaugh Lake, after the contractor who built the A&S. This impoundment overflowed in the flood leading to the postwar effort to fill it in. p95. Upper photo is most likely PARK not Columbia. Interestingly, an almost identical photo in WITHERS PUBLISHING's "Pennsy Electric Pictorial" is similarly mislabeled... p105-106 The "curious contraption floating in the river..." is most likely not floating nor is it the 117 dredge as claimed (however the caption is correct in that the 117 dredge is visible in the two photos on the previous page). I beleive that it is the facility that removed the dredged coal slurry from barges loaded by the 117 dredge and transferred it to a pipeline where it was pumped to the top of the hill. 2 barges are present at the facility in the photo. In fact, a very close examination of the photo on page 108-109 shows the loading facility and a shadowy vessel just above the C&PD, whcih is most likely the 117. The foundation of this structure can still be seen in satelite images (http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=1904&Y=22103&Z=18&W=2) H appy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:46:46 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Welded rail on Northern Division was Re: [PRR] Track Length Greetings to Bob and the group, Welded rail on the old PRR Northern Division between Williamsport and Renovo specifically was installed between 1981 and 1983 by Conrail. Can't pin the year down any better than that. Just remember it being during the time I was in grad school. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 10:07 AM 10/13/2000 -0400, Robert Zeolla wrote: >One of the things I recently realized is missing when I go to area >operating sessions is the sound of the click-clack of the trains going >across the rail joints due to the extensive use of flex track. > >This brings up a few questions: > >Around what year did welded rail become the norm on mainlines? > >If I wanted to replicate the actual length between joints on a prototype > >Pennsy mainline, what distance would that be? In HO, three foot flex >track comes to about 261 scale feet, and a nine inch snap track scales >out to about 65 feet. Are either close? > >Thanks ... > >Bob Zeolla > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:56:49 -0500 From: jud powell Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length and staggered joints While staggered joints tended to happen on their own, railroads made sure it happened because joints across from each other would cause a train to "hop" as the area around the gap is expected to drop a little as trains pass. Hopping damaged track very quickly not to mention very uncomfortable for passengers and crew. This flexing, even in the best prepared track is what keeps rails from breaking. A perfectly ridgid track would not last but hours in service. Jud Powell Texarkana, Texas "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > Hi Bob, > I'm not sure about when welded rail became common. I would > guess it was beginning to be used in the early 60's with increased > regularity. > Standard rail length was 39'-0". Shorter pieces cut from std.lengths would > be used as required > for turnouts, crossovers, etc, etc. > Rail joints were random in each rail (i.e. they were not purposely > staggered, or placed across from each > other. They just fell where they fell. I would suspect certain conditions > dictated "standard" > spacing, but the norm appears to be random. > On my H.O. PRR layout I use 3' flex track and don't worry about simulating > the 39' > rail lengths. > I have recently started modeling in "O"Scale (2-rail) and use flex-track > here as well. > Because of it's larger size I do simulate the 39' rail lengths by cutting a > shallow groove > in the top of the rail w/ a razor saw and then ACC "Right-of-Way" dummy rail > joiners to the sides > of the rail to complete the effect. I don't know if anyone makes a similar > product on H.O. or not, but > the razor cut might give you the clickty-clack effect you desire. > Hope this helps. > Anyone else out there have any ideas?? > C.Burnley Jr. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Zeolla [mailto:robert.zeolla@oracle.com] > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 10:07 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Track Length > > One of the things I recently realized is missing when I go to area > operating sessions is the sound of the click-clack of the trains going > across the rail joints due to the extensive use of flex track. > > This brings up a few questions: > > Around what year did welded rail become the norm on mainlines? > > If I wanted to replicate the actual length between joints on a prototype > > Pennsy mainline, what distance would that be? In HO, three foot flex > track comes to about 261 scale feet, and a nine inch snap track scales > out to about 65 feet. Are either close? > > Thanks ... > > Bob Zeolla > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR moments and Station colors Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:13:33 -0500 (CDT) From: george.pierson@trnty.edu Hi, everyone, A couple of things. Had a chance to be back in Middle Div country a few weeks ago and was standing by HUNT tower in Huntingdon when the dispatcher happened to line the plant for a cross-over move. Now I've always enjoyed the look of the PRR electro-pneumatic turnout machines but for the first time I got to hear one. It's a nice hiss-and-clunk as the points are thrown. Here's another one of those "hear it while you can" PRR moments. I'm guessing that like most other things PRR, the White Stallion will need/want to replace these machines, if for no other reason than to get rid of the air system needed to operate them. Enjoy them while you can. Next, I found my way to Barree, between Huntingdon and Spruce Creek. I did not have much time but wanted to see where the Diamond Valley RR, a n.g. logger, had connected with the PRR. I was somewhat surprised to see that the PRR was built on a relatively high fill through this area. As I said, I didn't have time to explore, the leaves were fully out, so old r.o.w.'s would not have been visible. Anyway, I was wondering if the PRR tracks have always been this high above the surrounding terrain, and whether the DV connected right in Barree itself or nearby. If they connected in Barree itself, there must have been a possibly steep grade up to the PRR. Info on the DV strongly suggests that the DV ran very close to the PRR station in Barree (which coincidently was featured in the latest issue of the KEYSTONE). Finally, as I mentioned in an earlier posting, I plan to model the PRR station at Port Royal which was completed in 1910. I have only ever seen B&W photos of it but in the earliest ones, the station appears to be all-wood, with the upper 2/3's of the walls horizontal clapboard, and the lower third a wainscoting composed of vertical boards. The upper part appears to be a light color, presumably the "depot buff" used by the PRR. The trim wood, including the horizontal piece separating the wainscoting from the clapboard, appears very dark; it is presumably the standard PRR dark brown paint used for trim. The wainscoting, however, appears to be a shade in between. Does anyone know what the wainscoting color was when there were three colors used in this manner? Thanks! George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:32:25 -0400 Subject: Sound Decoder was Re: [PRR] PRR moments and Station colors From: Jerry Britton On 10/13/00 3:13 PM, george.pierson@trnty.edu (george.pierson@trnty.edu) wrote: > A couple of things. Had a chance to be back in Middle Div country a few weeks > ago and was standing by HUNT tower in Huntingdon when the dispatcher happened > to line the plant for a cross-over move. Now I've always enjoyed the look of > the PRR electro-pneumatic turnout machines but for the first time I got to > hear > one. It's a nice hiss-and-clunk as the points are thrown. Here's another one > of those "hear it while you can" PRR moments. I'm guessing that like most > other things PRR, the White Stallion will need/want to replace these machines, > if for no other reason than to get rid of the air system needed to operate > them. Enjoy them while you can. > Now we need to get that sound digitized and get Soundtraxx to work with Digitrax to put it in their stationary decoders that drive switches. Imagine having the sound under an interlocking plant! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:36:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length and staggered joints Although American practice was always to have staggered rail joints, I believe there are other countries in which the practice was to have opposed rail joints. Trains in those countries were sometimes reported to have a "bounding" gait. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Track Length Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:54:49 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Robert Zeolla" Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length > Bob: > > Andy is right about the correct length being 39 ft. This is still somewhat > standard, although most rail is now sold in 78 ft (twice 39 ft) lengths. > But, the length has to do with harmonic vibrations between truck and rail. > Since prototype rail is generally laid with joints a half rail length apart > on each side, VERY dangerous vibrations would be set up if the length of > rail was equal to or half of the distance between truck centers. > > In the 1960, Alcoa forgot this and built some covered hoppers with truck > centers at 39 ft. to run in unit trains from Mobile, AL, to Massena, NY. > Trains could not operate over 25 mph due to harmonic vibrations and really > p***ed off GM&O and NYC dispatchers. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Zeolla" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 10:07 AM > Subject: [PRR] Track Length > > > > One of the things I recently realized is missing when I go to area > > operating sessions is the sound of the click-clack of the trains going > > across the rail joints due to the extensive use of flex track. > > > > This brings up a few questions: > > > > Around what year did welded rail become the norm on mainlines? > > > > If I wanted to replicate the actual length between joints on a prototype > > > > Pennsy mainline, what distance would that be? In HO, three foot flex > > track comes to about 261 scale feet, and a nine inch snap track scales > > out to about 65 feet. Are either close? > > > > Thanks ... > > > > Bob Zeolla > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:55:22 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "robert netzlof" Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 > Bob: - > > All railroads operate by the rulebook, and every rulebook I have ever seen > spells out what whistle (horn these days) signals are to be used where. If > the engineer suspects there are any management personnel listening, he > better be blowing long-long-short-long! The AN Railroad had to occasionally > forcefully remind certain engineers that this applied when switching as well > as for road trains. > > The only time this does not apply is in communities with "whistle bans", > which are an active subject with Congress and a "whole 'nother kettle of > fish". > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "robert netzlof" > To: "Matt Sichel" ; "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:28 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 > > > > --- Matt Sichel wrote: > > > Hey all, > > > > > > Does anyone know if there is a standard whistle > > > pattern sounded at grade > > > crossings? > > > > > Yes. > > > > Long, long, short, long; the last to be prolonged > > until the locomotive has entered the crossing. > > > > Whether trains are actually doing that is open to > > debate now that the ICC, which set out the rule, no > > longer exists. > > > > > > > > ===== > > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:55:49 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Matt Sichel" Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 > Matt: > > Yes. It is: long-long-short-long with the last long to be held until the > locomotive is at the crossing. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Sichel" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 8:40 AM > Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 > > > > Hey all, > > > > Does anyone know if there is a standard whistle pattern sounded at grade > > crossings? > > > > Matt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:08:38 +1000 Listers, I would be careful cutting too many rail joints into your "flex track" to get the "clickety clack" sound as it can become overwhelming. I have seen an O scale (7mm/ft) Great Western Railway (english) layout here in Melbourne that had notches filed in the top of the rail with a triangular file at a scale 33' (the standard rail length on GWR for the period modelled) and the noise was terrible! Just too much "clickety clack" for my taste. Remember that your ears are still about 8 real inches apart and in HO that is about 58 scale feet so the effective "hearing distance" span is over 2 lengths of rail. I would suggest that the joins at a the end of flex track are just about right for this "scale sound". Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:28:32 EDT Subject: Re: Welded rail on Northern Division was Re: [PRR] Track Length In a message dated 10/13/2000 2:57:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: > Welded rail on the old PRR Northern Division between Williamsport and > Renovo specifically was installed between 1981 and 1983 by Conrail. Can't > pin the year down any better than that. Just remember it being during the > time I was in grad school. > Drew: Was I seeing things last weekend or is the Bald Eagle and Nittany installing welded rail in two locations along US 220 between Port Matilda and Milesburg? Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:56:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] T-1 From: Scott A Boeger All, Ineed to calrify if the T-1 was a left hand or a right hand lead steam engin. I have a model that is right hand lead, I think this is wrong. I believe that this engin was a left hand lead. Any input or advise on where to find this answer would be sincerely appreciated!! Thanks in advance, Scott A Boeger rr_scott@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:43:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length In a message dated 10/13/00 10:16:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robert.zeolla@oracle.com writes: << If I wanted to replicate the actual length between joints on a prototype Pennsy mainline, what distance would that be? In HO, three foot flex track comes to about 261 scale feet, and a nine inch snap track scales out to about 65 feet. Are either close? >> Bob; On a section of my mainline, where it is in the foregroud, I experimented with this very thing. I used Grand Line fish plates and filed a very small notch in the top of the railhead to give the illusion of a joint. (I used Micro-Engineering Code 83 flex). The end result is very pleasing to the eye, especially when viewed at eye level, however, the 'clickety-clack' sound you are looking for isn't really noticable, and I used all metal/kadee wheelsets! The only way you would get a noticable sound is if the joints were oversized, which would not look nearly as good. Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:46:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length In a message dated 10/13/00 11:02:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Cutting all your joints down to 36-39' sure would be a lot of work. I wonder if you might accomplish the "look" and "sound" you desire by using a Dremel tool and a cutting blade to lightly "score" flex track to the lengths we are discussing. What's everyone else think about this approach? >> Jerry, This is the concept that I described in my earlier post, however, I only file a small notch in the railhead. The dremel cutting wheel or even a track saw leaves too large a gap. Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:41:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/12/00 In a message dated 00-10-12 16:17:17 EDT, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << I _have_ seen the latter portion in rulebooks, i.e., that the last long sound is to be held until the train is across the road. However, I have _not_ seen the former portion, i.e., that the last long sound is to be begun when the locomotive is at the road. >> As a daily, "creature-of-habit" commuter, I can certify that the engineer on SEPTA No.0213 does it exactly this way. My standing/ waiting/boarding point is right at the road crossing at Ardsley station. It happens the same way every single day.....crossing gates come down, train comes into sight around the curve, he blows long,long,short, and then hits the last long exactly as he passes my boarding group. "Boarding group"? Yes, we all know where the vestibule will stop! Admittedly, because he's making a station stop, he's going slow and can hit a long blast before he completely fouls the crossing. And I must admit I've never seen this in writing either. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Scott Charlesworth" Subject: Re: Welded rail on Northern Division was Re: [PRR] Track Length Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:42:19 -0400 The Nittany & Bald Eagle has replaced a little over half of the rail between Lock Haven and Tyrone with welded rail...Mostly in the 10 - 25 mph speed restrictions they had. Once completed, there should be no speed restrictions left except the ones in Tyrone(10), Milesburg(25), and Lock Haven(10)... They are also going to be putting the north leg of the wye back in Lock Haven. NS is planning on sending the Buffalo to Pittsburgh traffic that way... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 8:28 PM Subject: Re: Welded rail on Northern Division was Re: [PRR] Track Length > In a message dated 10/13/2000 2:57:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu > writes: > > > Welded rail on the old PRR Northern Division between Williamsport and > > Renovo specifically was installed between 1981 and 1983 by Conrail. Can't > > pin the year down any better than that. Just remember it being during the > > time I was in grad school. > > > Drew: > > Was I seeing things last weekend or is the Bald Eagle and Nittany installing > welded rail in two locations along US 220 between Port Matilda and Milesburg? > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard Campbell" Subject: [PRR] Decals Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:01:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C035C5.CA292F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Group Anyone know of an E-Mail address for Ian Clasper. He has several sets of = decals for PRR equipment. Neil campbell ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C035C5.CA292F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Group

Anyone know of an E-Mail address for = Ian Clasper.=20 He has several sets of decals for PRR equipment.

Neil = campbell
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C035C5.CA292F20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:31:53 -0500 Some years ago, while member of an HO modular club, I experimented with recording and playing back sounds on digital "chips". At the time Radio Shack sold a digital sound chip with instructions on recording and playback. I recorded the "click clack" of wheels over rail joints of a train in motion and programed the chip to playback continously, that is repeat the sound whenever the power was on. The output of the chip was fed through a simple audio amplifier to speakers under the module and the on/off was controlled by a train detector so that whenever a train was running on the module, a muted click clack sound was heard in the background. This design could be taken further today by putting the chip in a car in the train and controling the on/off via a DCC decoder or by a circuit in the car that turned the sound on when the car was in motion and off when it stopped. Advantage is that you do not have to do anything to the track. Disadvantages include having to put one or more cars in each train and the fact that the rate of the click clack is constant and does not vary with train speed. Bill Laird Obercanyonsee Klein Zug Werk, GmbH (the little train works overlooking Canyon Lake, TX) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Cullen" Subject: RE: [PRR] Decals Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:28:42 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C035DA.4A1E0D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil, I have some on the way from Ian; his e-mail is ianclasper@ntlworld.com . He also has a web site at http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/clasper.htm Jim ----------------------------------------------- Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Richard Campbell Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 10:02 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Decals Hi Group Anyone know of an E-Mail address for Ian Clasper. He has several sets of decals for PRR equipment. Neil campbell ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C035DA.4A1E0D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Neil,

I have some on=20 the way from Ian; his e-mail is = ianclasper@ntlworld.com = . He also has a web site at http://home.freeuk.net= /nmrabr/clasper.htm
Jim

-----------------------------------------------
Elizabeth & = Austin=20 Divisions of the PRR
http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen

-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Richard = Campbell
Sent:=20 Saturday, October 14, 2000 10:02 AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] = Decals

Hi Group

Anyone know of an E-Mail address for = Ian Clasper.=20 He has several sets of decals for PRR equipment.

Neil = campbell
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C035DA.4A1E0D40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:06:42 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] Newest Dave Sweetland PRR book Hi, At the Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS meeting today, Dave asked me to pass on this offer. His newest book, "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial, Volume Two- St. Louis to New York", a 128 page publication by Four Ways West Publishers, is due out the first week in November. Dave is offering the book at $40.00 (instead of the list price of $49.95) plus $3.00 postage to all interested PRR parties. His address is: David Sweetland 702 McKernan Lane Exton, PA 19341-1928 Best, Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:55:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Turntables? From: "William J. Ayers" > On 9/22/00 12:20 PM, Sam Vastano (svastano@hotmail.com) wrote: > >> I have Several questions about Turntables used on the PRR. >> >> 1. What was the biggest turntable used on the PRR and where was it located? > > I have seen several references that the Harrisburg passenger locomotive > facility had the largest turntable on the system...at 132'. > > There was an ad with the heading "Something New On The Table" which depicted > the Harrisburg turntable. >> >> 2. What size turntable was used in the Mahoningtown/New Castle Yard? >> >> 3. Who makes the closest Kit in HO scale? Sam, I've been away from my computer for the past three weeks, and just now wading through my e-mails. A couple of years ago I kit bashed Diamond Scale's 120' turntable kit. I don't know how close it is to PRR (the prototype is somewhere in OR), but by placing the control booth in the center (which closely resembles the one that was at Crestline), building a square arch out of Plastruct shapes, and making pipe handrails out of brass, it has the "look and feel" of a PRR turntable. It is a nice kit, the only drawback is the truck(?) casting, made of rather soft white metal. I have found that it can bend under the wieght of a heavy locomotive, upsetting the height adjustment. I plan to reinforce it with a brass "I" beam to correct the problem. Bill Ayers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 19:04:41 EDT Subject: Re: Welded rail on Northern Division was Re: [PRR] Track Length In a message dated 10/14/2000 9:49:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scottc@uplink.net writes: > The Nittany & Bald Eagle has replaced a little over half of the rail between > Lock Haven and Tyrone with welded rail...Mostly in the 10 - 25 mph speed > restrictions they had. Once completed, there should be no speed > restrictions left except the ones in Tyrone(10), Milesburg(25), and Lock > Haven(10)... > > They are also going to be putting the north leg of the wye back in Lock > Haven. NS is planning on sending the Buffalo to Pittsburgh traffic that > way... > Scott: Thanks for the information. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] X-29 in REA/PRR service Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 19:34:29 -0400 PRR Talk-listers: I have a quick question about these cars. It is my understanding that these cars were equipped with high speed trucks. But what was the size of the wheels? Were they 33" or 36" ? Thank you in advance! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] FW: PRR branch from Jamesburg to South Amboy Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 19:39:52 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Robert Gross [mailto:rnkgross@together.net] Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 7:33 AM To: Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com Subject: Sorry to disturb you Ted. I am new to the PRR digest list and I don't exactly know howto post a message. So I figured I 'd send it to a member and hopefully he (you) could perhaps post it for me and posiablly instruct me on how to do it on my own Where can I fond info and photos on Pennsy's branch from Jamesburg to South Amboy new Jersey. I am a South Amboy native and though I have searched exhaustively on info on the engine facilities, yard, operation, local industry and even the massive coal dock complex, I can't seem to uncover what I want. I would love to model this branch so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Sincerely Robert Gross rnkgross@together.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Length Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:40:34 -0400 Gentlemen: After thinking about the task of cutting gaps in the track, I think that it may not be effective in the smaller scales like HO and N. I think that O scale would be large enough to achieve the "clicky clack" sound as someone on the list testified. However, for N and HO scales, the gap would have to be unproportional wider to make the desired sound. It would not look good to say the least. I do think that there is a way around though. If you use all metal wheels on your trains, that may produce a "scale" track sound for jointed rail. Allow me to explain..... :) When I was growing up in Michigan, I lived near (about 2 miles away) the Grand Trunk Western mainline to Chicago. They had jointed rail back then. When a 100-car (4,500 feet long) train went by, you basically had 800 wheels coming in contact with approximately 230 rail joints every few seconds or so. Being about 2 miles away, the resulting noise sounded like a torrential rain storm. Although it is a "poor mans" solution, I think that all metal wheels on trains provide a similar noise which I think is scale for the most part for HO scale. After all, we as observers of our model layouts will be about within a scale mile or so from the model train as it moves along the track. For those want to have the clicky clack sound in an isolated area, they may want to put in gaps in the rail (like at the model rail joiners) or with a dremel tool. This way, the sound effect is achieved at a specific area without compromising performance (or one's sanity trying to cut in gaps at every rail joint on their layout!). If you are modeling railroad junctions like I am, track diamonds also give a great click clack sound. So you may want to put in the diamonds at a given junction even if the crossing trak is cosmetic and not an operational part of your layout. My 2 cents worth.... Ted -----Original Message----- From: MarkCFry@aol.com [mailto:MarkCFry@aol.com] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 9:46 PM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length In a message dated 10/13/00 11:02:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Cutting all your joints down to 36-39' sure would be a lot of work. I wonder if you might accomplish the "look" and "sound" you desire by using a Dremel tool and a cutting blade to lightly "score" flex track to the lengths we are discussing. What's everyone else think about this approach? >> Jerry, This is the concept that I described in my earlier post, however, I only file a small notch in the railhead. The dremel cutting wheel or even a track saw leaves too large a gap. Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:06:10 -0400 What is right hand and left hand lead mean? Roy Breon Pittsford, NY roybreon@netzero.net -----Original Message----- From: Scott A Boeger To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, October 13, 2000 9:01 PM Subject: [PRR] T-1 >All, >Ineed to calrify if the T-1 was a left hand or a right hand lead steam >engin. I have a model that is right hand lead, I think this is wrong. I >believe that this engin was a left hand lead. Any input or advise on >where to find this answer would be sincerely appreciated!! >Thanks in advance, >Scott A Boeger >rr_scott@juno.com > _______________________________________________ Why pay for something you could get for free? NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:26:17 -0400 Roy: It means the position of the eccentric crank at the main crankpin when in the 180 degree position - right (common) or left from vertical. BUT, the T-1's were built with poppet valves and originally didn't have an eccentric crank! Gregg Mahl;kov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Breon" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 > What is right hand and left hand lead mean? > > Roy Breon > Pittsford, NY > roybreon@netzero.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott A Boeger > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Friday, October 13, 2000 9:01 PM > Subject: [PRR] T-1 > > > >All, > >Ineed to calrify if the T-1 was a left hand or a right hand lead steam > >engin. I have a model that is right hand lead, I think this is wrong. I > >believe that this engin was a left hand lead. Any input or advise on > >where to find this answer would be sincerely appreciated!! > >Thanks in advance, > >Scott A Boeger > >rr_scott@juno.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Why pay for something you could get for free? > NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:43:12 -0400 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length > I think that O scale would be large enough to achieve the "clicky clack" > sound as someone on the list testified. I agree with this. I used to wok at the "Miniature Railroad and Village" at Carnegie Science Center in Pittsburgh, and it is an O-Gauge exhibit with Gar-Graves track, and the clickety-clack sound was quite noticeable (when we turned the trains off it was amazing how quiet the gallery became). Patrick -- =========================================================================== " My heart is warm with the friends I make, And better friends I'll not be knowing; Yet there isn't a train I wouldn't take, No matter where it's going." -Edna St. Vincent Millay, Travel, 1921 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, The Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati (formerly Railway Exposition Company), Latonia, Kentucky PRRT&HS #6713 ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:26:39 -0700 From: Doug Edwards Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Gregg, I must disagree. Left or right hand lead refers to which crankpin leads. The PRR was opposite all the other steam locos I have come accross. While I do not pay too much attention to the T1, I have always figured they were left hand lead like the earlier engines. Doug Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Roy: > > It means the position of the eccentric crank at the main crankpin when in > the 180 degree position - right (common) or left from vertical. BUT, the > T-1's were built with poppet valves and originally didn't have an eccentric > crank! > > Gregg Mahl;kov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy Breon" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 10:06 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 > > > What is right hand and left hand lead mean? > > > > Roy Breon > > Pittsford, NY > > roybreon@netzero.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Scott A Boeger > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Date: Friday, October 13, 2000 9:01 PM > > Subject: [PRR] T-1 > > > > > > >All, > > >Ineed to calrify if the T-1 was a left hand or a right hand lead steam > > >engin. I have a model that is right hand lead, I think this is wrong. I > > >believe that this engin was a left hand lead. Any input or advise on > > >where to find this answer would be sincerely appreciated!! > > >Thanks in advance, > > >Scott A Boeger > > >rr_scott@juno.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Why pay for something you could get for free? > > NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email > > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] X-29 Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 07:49:23 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0367C.6F44D340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list, While going thru my "old" mags, came across and article in Railmodel = Journal (written by Martin Lofton) which stated that the last 3,300 of = the species were built with dreadnaught ends. Would like to confirm this = as I have a few critters (courtesy of TMI/Walthers) which I would like = to do up ala Pennsy. Also number-wise, would this series be "more = common" in express service than the more common "flat-end"? Any = responders are cautioned, this may get involved. Walt Prusick=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0367C.6F44D340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list,

While going thru my "old" mags, came across and = article in=20 Railmodel Journal (written by Martin Lofton) which stated that = the last=20 3,300 of the species were built with dreadnaught ends. Would like to = confirm=20 this as I have a few critters (courtesy of TMI/Walthers) which I would = like to=20 do up ala Pennsy. Also number-wise, would this series be "more = common" in=20 express service than the more common "flat-end"? Any responders are = cautioned,=20 this may get involved.

Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0367C.6F44D340-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] X-29 in Express Service Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 08:14:26 -0400 Hi List, If there is a question of what X-29 were in express service, the simple answer is to get the Passenger Equipment Roster book from Wasatch Backshop published 1996. All the cars are listed in a number of different databases. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Turntables? Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 09:39:31 EDT Bill, Group, I found a 18" bowser on e-bay that I got high bid on. I will take your advice on putting the shed in the middle, What roundhouse did you use? or did you kitbash that also? Any others?? Who makes the best looking roundhouse that will work with my Turntable that is pennsy appropriate? I want something reasonable long enought to get the T1 into and not have it looking stupid with 3/4 of the tender sticking out. Thanks Sam >From: "William J. Ayers" >To: Jerry Britton , Sam Vastano , > PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Turntables? >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:55:00 -0500 > > > On 9/22/00 12:20 PM, Sam Vastano (svastano@hotmail.com) wrote: > > > >> I have Several questions about Turntables used on the PRR. > >> > >> 1. What was the biggest turntable used on the PRR and where was it >located? > > > > I have seen several references that the Harrisburg passenger locomotive > > facility had the largest turntable on the system...at 132'. > > > > There was an ad with the heading "Something New On The Table" which >depicted > > the Harrisburg turntable. > >> > >> 2. What size turntable was used in the Mahoningtown/New Castle Yard? > >> > >> 3. Who makes the closest Kit in HO scale? > >Sam, > >I've been away from my computer for the past three weeks, and just now >wading through my e-mails. A couple of years ago I kit bashed Diamond >Scale's 120' turntable kit. I don't know how close it is to PRR (the >prototype is somewhere in OR), but by placing the control booth in the >center (which closely resembles the one that was at Crestline), building a >square arch out of Plastruct shapes, and making pipe handrails out of >brass, >it has the "look and feel" of a PRR turntable. It is a nice kit, the only >drawback is the truck(?) casting, made of rather soft white metal. I have >found that it can bend under the wieght of a heavy locomotive, upsetting >the >height adjustment. I plan to reinforce it with a brass "I" beam to correct >the problem. > >Bill Ayers _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Turntables? Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 09:20:10 -0500 William Ayers wrote, in part: > >I've been away from my computer for the past three weeks, and just now >wading through my e-mails. A couple of years ago I kit bashed Diamond >Scale's 120' turntable kit. ............ Is Diamond Scale still in business? Some months ago a friend of mine who works in a hobby shop tried to get one and told me that they were no longer available. After many telephone calls, he did manage to find one on a shelf in another hobby shop. Bill Laird Obercanyonsee Klein Zug Werk, GmbH (the little train works above Canyon Lake, TX) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Susan/Jim Leighty" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Turntables? Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 10:54:34 -0400 I know that the owners of Diamond Scale were quite old a few years back when I built one of their turntables. I had to contact them once to ask a question. Their turntables are wonderful and mine is still on my layout. People constantly comment about it, but it was absolutely the most difficult kit that I ever built....bar none. Jim Leighty headend@ptd.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Turntables? > William Ayers wrote, in part: > > > >I've been away from my computer for the past three weeks, and just now > >wading through my e-mails. A couple of years ago I kit bashed Diamond > >Scale's 120' turntable kit. ............ > > Is Diamond Scale still in business? Some months ago a friend of mine who > works in a hobby shop tried to get one and told me that they were no longer > available. After many telephone calls, he did manage to find one on a shelf > in another hobby shop. > > Bill Laird > Obercanyonsee Klein Zug Werk, GmbH > (the little train works above Canyon Lake, TX) > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] X-29 Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 09:54:12 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C0368D.DF4FA000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Walt--The Keystone of December 1976, Vol. 9, No. 4, provides some = pertinent info. Pg. 2: "Another NYC suggestion, for corrugated ends, = was adopted by the PRR for the construction of the last 3300 X29 cars, = beginning in 1932." Pg. 6: "The X29 cars in number series = 100000-103324 were built with dreadnaught or corrugated ends and = corrugated doors....Other X29's and X28's were built with plain ends, = but some received corrugated ends as replacements." X29's used in express service were modified cars originally built for = freight, then renumbered. I think a complete listing of express cars is = difficult. Pg. 10: "...the quantity varied with time." I'm not sure = that we can say the dreadnaught end cars were more common; pg. 10 = again: "Express service cars in good condition with plain ends and plain = doors could be found in passenger service in the mid-60's..." Incidentally, this article has a very good description with diagrams of = the different styles of overlap of the side sheets. This is a small but = significant detail that Red Caboose has faithfully reproduced. Whether = you like to paint and letter your own, as I do, or use the factory = painted models, these are outstanding models. Fortunately, I was able = to sell my TM/Walthers cars at a show when the Red Caboose models first = came out. Have fun! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C0368D.DF4FA000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Walt--The Keystone of December 1976, = Vol. 9, No.=20 4, provides some pertinent info. Pg. 2: "Another NYC suggestion, = for=20 corrugated ends, was adopted by the PRR for the construction of the last = 3300=20 X29 cars, beginning in 1932." Pg. 6: "The X29 cars in number = series=20 100000-103324 were built with dreadnaught or corrugated ends and = corrugated=20 doors....Other X29's and X28's were built with plain ends, but some = received=20 corrugated ends as replacements."

X29's used in express service were = modified cars=20 originally built for freight, then renumbered. I think a complete = listing=20 of express cars is difficult. Pg. 10: "...the quantity = varied with=20 time." I'm not sure that we can say the dreadnaught end cars were = more=20 common; pg. 10 again: "Express service cars in good condition with = plain=20 ends and plain doors could be found in passenger service in the=20 mid-60's..."

Incidentally, this article has a very = good=20 description with diagrams of the different styles of overlap of the side = sheets. This is a small but significant detail that Red Caboose = has=20 faithfully reproduced. Whether you like to paint and letter your = own, as I=20 do, or use the factory painted models, these are outstanding = models. =20 Fortunately, I was able to sell my TM/Walthers cars at a show when the = Red=20 Caboose models first came out.

Have fun!

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C0368D.DF4FA000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 11:16:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Turntables? In a message dated 10/15/00 9:06:22 AM Central Daylight Time, blaird@gvtc.com writes: << Is Diamond Scale still in business? >> There is supposedly a new owner, but I haven't heard much about the product. Our club purchased one of the old 18-inchers off a shelf and our member building it spent two years getting it to work--center hole wasn't, that is it wasn't on center. We will probably contact the new owner direct when we get our next table, to have a recent contact in case there is a quality problem. Address and URL follow (I think this is the new and not old owner): Diamond Scale Construction 3742 West Anderson Drive Glendale, AZ 85308 (phone) 602 504 8589 (e-mail) newolfe@compuserve.com" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 10:57:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Turntables? From: "William J. Ayers" Sam, Bill, Group, I turn both a T1 and a Q2 on my turntable and they both look impressive. Both are way too long for my roundhouse. It is only a stand-in, scratchbuilt by my Dad from an NYC r.h. in Bellefountaine, Ohio. I am looking for an appropriate roundhouse of USRA design. You might consider doing what PRR did at Crestline for the S1. They built a cinderblock extension to stall #30 on the back side of the stall. I have the feeling I will have to sratchbuild it, hopefully using buiding parts such as DPM. I don't know of Diamond Scale's status. They were in Walther's catalog and seem to be a small division of some other enterprise. They may only build them when there is enough demand. Just a hopefull guess. Don't know of a web site, but their address and phone is/was: Daimond Scale Const. Box 691 Oakridge, OR 97463 541-782-3903 Hope this helps. Bill Sam Vastano wrote: > I found a 18" bowser on e-bay that I got high bid on. I will take your > advice on putting the shed in the middle, What roundhouse did you use? or > did you kitbash that also? Any others?? Who makes the best looking > roundhouse that will work with my Turntable that is pennsy appropriate? I > want something reasonable long enought to get the T1 into and not have it > looking stupid with 3/4 of the tender sticking out. > > Thanks > > Sam > Bill Laird wrote: > Is Diamond Scale still in business? Some months ago a friend of mine who > works in a hobby shop tried to get one and told me that they were no longer > available. After many telephone calls, he did manage to find one on a shelf > in another hobby shop. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:05:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Newest Dave Sweetland PRR book In a message BILL Morlitz (prrbill@Op.Net) writes: << Hi, At the Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS meeting today, Dave asked me to pass on this offer. His newest book, "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial, Volume Two- St. Louis to New York", a 128 page publication by Four Ways West Publishers, is due out the first week in November. >> I reported the release of the book in my Scuttlebutt Column of Mainline this month and there is a third book that Joe Shine is putting together for David now. I think the offer is certainly a good price. If you have not bought the first one, do so. It is a great book and David's work is great and Joe Shine is generous with photo space. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] X29 Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:24:11 -0700 Walt, Martin's numbers are correct (he did the research in support of his line of X28/X29 kits a few years back, and his level of accuracy is on par with Al Westerfield). Unfortunately, the TMI/Walthers kits have an incorrect 3/3/3 Dreadnaught end which was recycled from the dies for their 40 ft DS Boxcar. The Red Caboose Dreadnaught end cars have the correct ends. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRR: Turntables? Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 16:01:38 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C036C1.3339FC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list, Currently (ha-ha) on my own Diamond Scale 120' turntable. I have already = kit-basked a few Heljan roundhouses together to get the required length = for my T1. I now have 5 stalls that are 4 wall sections deep and two at = the standard depth of three. I figure to keep the rest of my steam = out-of-doors. Besides, all those exterior steam lines and such should = definately look great. May not match the round house here in Conway = but...... Take care Waltr Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C036C1.3339FC00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list,

Currently (ha-ha) on my own Diamond Scale 120' = turntable. I=20 have already kit-basked a few Heljan roundhouses together to get the = required=20 length for my T1. I now have 5 stalls that are 4 wall sections deep and = two at=20 the standard depth of three. I figure to keep the rest of my steam = out-of-doors.=20 Besides, all those exterior steam lines and such should definately look = great. =20 May not match the round house here in Conway but......

Take care

Waltr Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C036C1.3339FC00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:06:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] E7's and E8's Has anyone seen a picture of an E7 and an E8 running together? It appears they were kept isolated from each other from all the pictures I have seen. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 18:06:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR LIGHT USRA 2-8-2 Mikados Athearn has recently produced models of the PRR L-2 which was a light USRA Mikado from Schenectady produced for Grand Rapids & Indiana which lasted until 1948. A TRAINS article in the march 1991 issue page30 indicates there were other USRA light Mikados produced for PRR as follows: Baldwin 1 Schenectady 4 Lima 28 My question is does anyone know anything about the other engines produced for the PRR i.e service life, where they were used etc. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] E7's and E8's Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:26:00 -0500 I was watching the new PC video yesterday and there is a scene of an E7 & E8 running together. Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 4:06 PM Subject: [PRR] E7's and E8's > Has anyone seen a picture of an E7 and an E8 running together? It appears > they were kept isolated from each other from all the pictures I have seen. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 18:44:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] E7's and E8's In a message dated 10/15/00 4:18:41 PM Central Daylight Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << Has anyone seen a picture of an E7 and an E8 running together?>> Yes. << It appears they were kept isolated from each other from all the pictures I have seen. >> E7A's and B's, E8A's, and PA B-units were used in every combination (except all B's :-)). You can even mix colors and striping schemes, depending on your modeling year! You need a bigger collection of pictures:-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:38:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR] More RARE Locomotives From: Jerry Britton Just posted Batch Two of the PRR locomotives and other stock that we purchased from another reseller. Today's entries include many Bachmann Spectrum locos, including 44-Ton Switchers, K-4's, and some coaches; E-R Models FP-7's; Atlas Classics RS-1's; and even more Life Like Proto locomotives. These are in extremely limited numbers. Search on the particular manufacturer and these items will stand out in the listing with a little "lit match" icon to the right. Get 'em while you can! http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Still to come: IHC GG-1's and many special livery passenger cars! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Lodging near the PRR in Altoona or Harrisburg From: Fred G Rea Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:49:55 EDT I am thinking of an AMTRAK trip on the Pennsylvanian some time soon. I would like to leave Cleveland eastbound one morning, and get back the following evening. The question is where to layover for the return trip. Harrisburg seems to have a number of downtown hotels, but is ground transportation available, especially if NS gives me a long after midnite arrival? Actually, I'd rather layover in Altoona, but at least according to my AAA book, all the motels are on a freeway at the edge of town. None mention ground transport from/to AMTRAK. I don't mind paying the going rate for a motel or hotel but I do not want to rent a car. Even that is no help because most downtown locations close about 5 PM. Any suggestions? Other towns along the Middle Div would be fine too. Fred Rea Columbus, OH ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:45:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] X-29 PRR List, With all of the discussion about the X-29 car. Do you know about the Red Caboose HO release of this car in several PRR dresses? They are a nicely detailed cars with separate grabs, ladders and scale stirrup steps. Time to check with Jerry at Merchandise Service! Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lodging near the PRR in Altoona or Harrisburg Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:16:08 -0500 > I am thinking of an AMTRAK trip on the Pennsylvanian some time soon. I > would like to leave Cleveland eastbound one morning, and get back the > following evening. The question is where to layover for the return > trip. Fred, There is a Holiday Inn in Altoona that I have stayed at several times. You might give them a call and check and see if they have a courtesy car, or can give you info on taking a cab. I have also stayed at the Huntingdon Inn in Huntingdon before. You might give them a call as well. I bet they would come pick you up, since it is only about a mile or so from the AMTRAK station. Regards, Greg Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 23:26:48 EDT Subject: Re: Welded rail on Northern Division was Re: [PRR] Track Length The N&BE installed 3 1/2 miles of welded rail to up the speeds on the Bald Eagle. They should finish the tamping and surfacing with two weeks. I had the chance to ride the line today from Belle to Post in my hirail truck. Really nice rolling along some ex PRR trackage that is being upgraded. We were running 30-35 with no problems. ---------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:00:52 -0500 (CDT) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Length I agree with Graeme about not overdoing it by filing joints in the track. We recently completed a 700 sq ft HO scale layout at the Galveston Railroad Museum. Flex track was used everywhere. I've run 25 car coal trains on it and the klickety-clack sound is very pleasing. With a train that long there are always a couple of cars traversing a joint and you get the effect without being overwhelmed by it. I also think that using metal wheels adds to the effect, as I don't remember as much sound before I replaced the plastic wheelsets that came with the kits. Graeme Netz wrote > >I would be careful cutting too many rail joints into your "flex track" to >get the "clickety clack" sound as it can become overwhelming. I have seen an >O scale (7mm/ft) Great Western Railway (english) layout here in Melbourne >that had notches filed in the top of the rail with a triangular file at a >scale 33' (the standard rail length on GWR for the period modelled) and the >noise was terrible! Just too much "clickety clack" for my taste. > >Remember that your ears are still about 8 real inches apart and in HO that >is about 58 scale feet so the effective "hearing distance" span is over 2 >lengths of rail. I would suggest that the joins at a the end of flex track >are just about right for this "scale sound". > Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] Waynesburg & Washington # 4 ng 2-6-0 on display next weekend Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:35:41 -0500 List, Thought I'd pass this on as it is a PRR steamer after all. Peter Reinhold #5518 -----Original Message----- From: Don Hensley [SMTP:taplines@greenepa.net] Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 8:55 AM To: Slimrails@egroups.com Subject: [Slimrails] Waynesburg & Washington # 4 ng 2-6-0 on display next weekend Our local group has completed it first stage of restoring Waynesburg & Washington RR # 4 (Pennsylvania RR # 9684) and she will be out of her engine house and on open display at the Greene County Historical Museum next weekend near Waynesburg, PA on October 21-22 for the harvest festival. This 1916 American Locomotive Co. 2-6-0 is in great shape and has to be one of the few examples left with a intact Eames Vacuum Brake. To get to the museum get off at the Waynesburg exit (Interstate 79) and head east on SR 21 towards Carmichaels. Turn right at the sign on top of the big hill.-- Donald R.Hensley, Jr. Railroad Photographer & Historian Specializing in Southeastern Shortlines and Industrial Railroads. Visit Taplines at http://www.greenepa.net/~taplines ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] Waynesburg & Washington # 4 ng 2-6-0 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:09:13 -0400 PRR group, FYI: #4 is a Baldwin built loco for 3' narrow gage PRR operation in southwestern Pa. (Bachman's On30" 2-6-0, lettered for PRR looks very similar.) The loco is stored at the Greene County Historical Society on Rolling Meadows Rd., Waynesburg, PA, east of exit 3 off Interstate 79. This coming weekend, Oct 21 and 22, is an open house / festival at the museum. Jim Weinschenker and his crew have done a comendable job of beginning the restoration of this loco. There are also two narrow gage,, diesel 4 wheel mine "critters" on display too. If you need more comprehensive directions or a place to stay, e-mail me off list and I'll send you whatever information you require. I look forward to seeing you there. Lew Matt PRRT&HS -----Original Message----- From: Peter Reinhold To: PRR-Modeling (E-mail) ; PRR-TALK(E-mail) Date: Monday, October 16, 2000 10:37 AM Subject: [PRR] Waynesburg & Washington # 4 ng 2-6-0 on display next weekend >List, > >Thought I'd pass this on as it is a PRR steamer after all. > >Peter Reinhold >#5518 > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Don Hensley [SMTP:taplines@greenepa.net] >Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 8:55 AM >To: Slimrails@egroups.com >Subject: [Slimrails] Waynesburg & Washington # 4 ng 2-6-0 on display next weekend > >Our local group has completed it first stage of restoring >Waynesburg & >Washington RR # 4 (Pennsylvania RR # 9684) and she will be >out of her engine >house and on open display at the Greene County Historical >Museum next weekend >near Waynesburg, PA on October 21-22 for the harvest >festival. This 1916 >American Locomotive Co. 2-6-0 is in great shape and has to >be one of the few >examples left with a intact Eames Vacuum Brake. To get to >the museum get off at >the Waynesburg exit (Interstate 79) and head east on SR 21 >towards Carmichaels. >Turn right at the sign on top of the big hill.-- >Donald R.Hensley, Jr. >Railroad Photographer & Historian >Specializing in Southeastern Shortlines and Industrial Railroads. >Visit Taplines at http://www.greenepa.net/~taplines > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:16:02 EDT From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Pittsburgh, Ciincinnati, Chicago & St. Louii RR Co. In a message dated Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:20:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JMax67 writes: << I came across your e-mail address while researching on the Internet and wondered if you could help me. The Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis RR Co. owned some Russian Decapods from about 1918 through 1920. Several of these locomotives later went to the Frisco and some are preserved today. I am a member of the Illinois Railway Museum and we operate one of these Russian Decapods. I am trying to find out what classification Penny would have given these locomotives (Class I?) but I can't seem to track it down anywhere. Any ideas? Thanks for your help. Jason >> Jason, Im currently building a Bowser PRR L1 2-10-0 Decapod, which wass more massive than the Russians. I don't personally know of any Russian decapods -- with their smaller boilers, smoke box, grates and drivers being owned or operated by the PRR or one of its subsidiaries such as the PCC&StL, the Pennsylvania Co., or the Pennsylvania, Detroit & Ohio Railroad. During World War I the USRA ran the PRR and number of non-PRR designs saw service on the PRR. Since I model Pennsy steam in July 1949, I'm posting your query to the PRR-talk mailing list to see if that is just what happened. Tom V, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:46:11 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA composite gondolas --On Thu, Oct 12, 2000 12:40 AM -0500 "Jeremy & Soni Helms" wrote: > Hello all, > > I have just assembled a Intermountain HO scale PRR composite side gondola. > What service where these cars used in and and what time frame are they good > for? Thank you for any help on this. There was a good article in the MR hobby press, possibly RMJ. I believe the PRR allotment went to Lines West, and that they were drop bottom gons, which might offer some hint. As I remember, they were all rebuilt with steel side panels and solid bottoms in the late twenties. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Pittsburgh, Ciincinnati, Chicago & St. Louii RR Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:26:17 -0400 Pennsy never owned any of the Russian decapods. Their own decapods were classified as I1s and I1sa. The difference between the 2 classes was strictly internal. Valve changes that affected steam cut-off of the piston stroke. I1s engines were converted to I1sa over the course of their lives on the railroad. I believe about 75% were done this way before the end of steam in 57. Following Pennsy practice, if there was another decapod style engine on the railroad it would be classified as class I2, I2s, or I2sa, etc. assuming that it arrived after the I1's were allready present. Hope this helps. C. Burnley Jr. -----Original Message----- From: LINESWEST@aol.com [mailto:LINESWEST@aol.com] Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 11:16 AM To: JMax67@aol.com Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Pittsburgh, Ciincinnati, Chicago & St. Louii RR Co. In a message dated Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:20:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JMax67 writes: << I came across your e-mail address while researching on the Internet and wondered if you could help me. The Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis RR Co. owned some Russian Decapods from about 1918 through 1920. Several of these locomotives later went to the Frisco and some are preserved today. I am a member of the Illinois Railway Museum and we operate one of these Russian Decapods. I am trying to find out what classification Penny would have given these locomotives (Class I?) but I can't seem to track it down anywhere. Any ideas? Thanks for your help. Jason >> Jason, Im currently building a Bowser PRR L1 2-10-0 Decapod, which wass more massive than the Russians. I don't personally know of any Russian decapods -- with their smaller boilers, smoke box, grates and drivers being owned or operated by the PRR or one of its subsidiaries such as the PCC&StL, the Pennsylvania Co., or the Pennsylvania, Detroit & Ohio Railroad. During World War I the USRA ran the PRR and number of non-PRR designs saw service on the PRR. Since I model Pennsy steam in July 1949, I'm posting your query to the PRR-talk mailing list to see if that is just what happened. Tom V, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Pittsburgh, Ciincinnati, Chicago & St. Louii List, Charles B. wrote: "Pennsy never owned any of the Russian decapods" Charles, I am not so sure about that. Everytime Russian Decapods and PRR come up in the same breath, I always refer to a tidbit in an early issue of the Keystone. In the question and answer section someone asked if the Pennsy ever owned any of these locos. The answer posted was "YES, there were several that worked Conway Yards as Trimmer engines." I have to admit, myself I have never seen any photos or any other written material concerning Russians on the Pennsy. Is this answer a fact? or a guess? I do not know. I have to dig that issue out again to see who posted the answer. This was an early issue, about 1970 so maybe it was Elmer Sturneagle, maybe not.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:50:54 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Pittsburgh, Ciincinnati, Chicago & St. Louii RR Charles Burnley Jr. said: >Pennsy never owned any of the Russian decapods. Whao, now be careful...never say never...I beleive that previously on this list were several postings of documented PRR ownership of so-called "Russian decapods", and perhaps even their use in the Enola yards. As for their class??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Pittsburgh, Ciincinnati, Chicago & St. Louii List, I just dug up the issue of the Keystone that had the question about Russian Decs on the PRR. Word for word here it is. Question, found in Vol 3 #1 issue: Can anyone supply additional information or details on the Russian Decapods used on the PRR Fort Wayne Division during World War 2? Answer, found in Vol. 3 #3 issue: Some Russian Decapods were used during World War 1 on the PRR's Eastern Division. Two were used as trimmer engines at Conway Yard. They were not used in road service because the small drivers kept them from obtaining the necessary speeds. (Dick Adams answered the question, not Elmer Sturneagle) As you can see both World War 2 and 1 is posted in the question and answer. Most likely both should read WW1 as this was the time period they were built. Unless the person who had the origianl question had info on Russian Decapod in Fort Wayne service during WW2. Maybe the fellow answering the quesion had proof of them in service during WW1. Anyway, take the answer for what it is worth. Like I said earlier, this was the only place I have seen mentioned of these locos on the Pennsy....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:45:47 -0400 Hi guys, I should have known better than to have said "never" in the same sentence as "PRR". I'm going to have to contact Dick Adams to find out where he got his information, as I have never seen or heard ANYTHING about Russians being in service on the Pennsy. If they were used, I would suspect they were leased, on loan from somewhere, or being looked at for possible purchase from the USRA, as they don't show up as an official 'class' in any of the rosters, engine lists, all time number assignments, etc. I would love to see a photo if there are any in existence (how were the painted and lettered??), but I wouldn't know where to begin. The Hagley Museum maybe? If anyone out there can dig up anything on this topic please post it. I would be very interested. Talk to ya-all latter. C. Burnley Jr. -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 1:59 PM To: Burnley, Charles; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Pittsburgh, Ciincinnati, Chicago & St. Louii RR Co��. List, I just dug up the issue of the Keystone that had the question about Russian Decs on the PRR. Word for word here it is. Question, found in Vol 3 #1 issue: Can anyone supply additional information or details on the Russian Decapods used on the PRR Fort Wayne Division during World War 2? Answer, found in Vol. 3 #3 issue: Some Russian Decapods were used during World War 1 on the PRR's Eastern Division. Two were used as trimmer engines at Conway Yard. They were not used in road service because the small drivers kept them from obtaining the necessary speeds. (Dick Adams answered the question, not Elmer Sturneagle) As you can see both World War 2 and 1 is posted in the question and answer. Most likely both should read WW1 as this was the time period they were built. Unless the person who had the origianl question had info on Russian Decapod in Fort Wayne service during WW2. Maybe the fellow answering the quesion had proof of them in service during WW1. Anyway, take the answer for what it is worth. Like I said earlier, this was the only place I have seen mentioned of these locos on the Pennsy....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:45:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Final Batch RARE PRR Locos and Cars From: Jerry Britton Just posted Batch Three (final batch) of the PRR locomotives and other stock that we purchased from another reseller. This batch includes some IHC GG-1 electric locos as well as numerous special run passenger cars...including three painted for PRR interchange service to the west! Also, "Fleet of Modernism" cars. Remaining from yesterday's entries are many Bachmann Spectrum locos, including 44-Ton Switchers and K-4's; E-R Models FP-7's; Atlas Classics RS-1's; and even more Life Like Proto locomotives. These are in extremely limited numbers. Search on the particular manufacturer and these items will stand out in the listing with a little "lit match" icon to the right. Get 'em while you can! http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:42:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR ALCo book PRR List, Several days ago someone inquired as to where to get the Withers book, PRR Diesels, Vol. 1, ALCo RS Series, authored by John D. Hahn Jr.. Sorry requestor I lost your posting. If our host, Merchandise Service does not have it and cannot get it, there are still three copies at Caboose Hobbies priced at $12.70. As always, I would encourage you to buy from Merchandise Service first in appreciation for the "Talk" service. Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:47:48 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] rail length (belatedly...) The 39 fott (nominal) lenght was set by the ability of the ro9lling mills available at the time, and by the abilty to fit in/on the standard cars available. Given that r0olling stck varied in length, it is a tad difficult to keep car length awy from rail length. As to where it was installed, initially LWR was installed in high maintanance locations, or where maintanance was difficult (eg: New Cascade Tunnel on the GN was an early instalation.) So high grade/ high tonnage/high curvature got done ealy, once the technolgy was understood. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:17:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] rail length I have found a case of where welded rail was installed in some tunnels the 30's. I'm curious as to when possibly the first welded rail was used in the US. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:46:53 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Keystone From: "Doug and Marianne" My Keystone finally arrived today (Mon., Oct 16) in Northern California. Seems like many weeks since there were other posts on the list regarding this issue. It must have been shipped via NS and UP. Or was it Amtrak? Doug N. Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 06:18:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ALCo book From: Jerry Britton On 10/16/00 9:42 PM, RDG2124@aol.com at (RDG2124@aol.com) wrote: > Several days ago someone inquired as to where to get the Withers book, PRR > Diesels, Vol. 1, ALCo RS Series, authored by John D. Hahn Jr.. Sorry > requestor I lost your posting. > > If our host, Merchandise Service does not have it and cannot get it, > there are still three copies at Caboose Hobbies priced at $12.70. As > always, I would encourage you to buy from Merchandise Service first in > appreciation for the "Talk" service. > I just learned last evening that Withers, the publisher, has sold out of volume 1. I also confirmed that the new volume 5 is ready to ship. I should have them in our system later today. Thanks for the plug! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 06:23:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rockville Bridge Bomb Threat From: Jerry Britton Yesterday there was a bomb threat at the Rockville Bridge. The following comes from the local tv station's web site (www.abc27.com): October 16, 2000 8:18 PM - A Dauphin County bomb threat left residents with a choice this morning, either leave the neighborhood, or stay inside, indefinitely. Police say the Rockville Bridge in Susquehanna Township was the target. Norfolk Southern is the only company that uses the bridge. The bomb threat affected people as they were leaving for work and taking their children to school. Susquehanna Township police went door to door, assisting the Norfolk Southern Police Department in a possible bomb threat on the Rockville Bridge. Residents had an option. Stay in their homes between 7:45 and 8:15 in the morning, or leave beforehand. Investigators blocked a section of Front Street looking for criminal activity, but they found nothing. This is the third time in four days Norfolk Southern has made news. Last Friday, a tanker car leaked hydrochloric acid in Marietta, Lancaster County. The leak forced about one hundred people to evacuate. Sunday night in Harrisburg, ammonia leaked from a tanker car headed to New York. It kept more than three hundred residents inside their homes. And now a bomb threat. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:34:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] CONGO coaches PRR List, In HO scale, is there a quality model of the streamlined coaches used on the PRR train the Congressional? These were the stainless steel cars with the tuscan or maroon letterboard band. Am looking for it in RTR or kit form. Having to paint and letter the cars is not an issue. I know Tyco made them but want a prototypical model not a department store toy item. Many thanks in advance! Evan RCT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:50:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] CONGO coaches IHC and Rivarossi offer some full length Budd cars painted for the Congo that are gorgeous in my opinion. However I do not believe the window arrangements are correct and the Obs is a boattail version. I kitbashed one into a square end obs with little difficulty. I recall that Walthers is supposed to be bringing out a line of correct Budd cars in the near future. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:46:54 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] CONGO coaches Can you elaborate on how you kitbashed the square obs end "with little difficulty"? Also, did you correct the windows? Did you build a diner? The diner has no vestibule and that makes a kitbash a real problem as you have to extend the fluting, not just rearrange the windows! These are the issues (besides time, space, and money) which have kept me from starting a Congo project. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > IHC and Rivarossi offer some full length Budd cars painted for the Congo that > are gorgeous in my opinion. However I do not believe the window arrangements > are correct and the Obs is a boattail version. I kitbashed one into a > square end obs with little difficulty. I recall that Walthers is supposed to > be bringing out a line of correct Budd cars in the near future. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: [PRR] First Welded Rail? Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:51:54 -0400 Listers: B&LE laid its first mile of welded rail in 1935 at River Valley just north of the Allegheny River bridge. That was welded with thermite butt method [cauldron clamped above joint]. That was replaced with rail using another method in 1948. Then B&LE waited to 1967 to embark on CWR for entire line by 1973; they had their own welding plant at KO yard north of Greenville to produce it from standard rail. B&LE also used one million steel ties between 1905-19 covering 80 percent of its 160+ miles of main trackage. That was eventually replaced with conventional wood crossties by late 1940s after wood preservation methods improved. PC laid in 1969 welded relay rail on PRR's E&P branch that ran through my backyard. They used some pretty old rail 1909-1916 rolling mill dates; I think it was 105 lb rail. Thought it was funny since it was replacing heavier rail [120?]. Paul S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:26:49 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] First Welded Rail? I keep seeing references to rail "dates" and such, with the implication that this information is somewhere on the rail itself. If so, where and how would I find this info on the local Delmarva Branch -- which has just been completely re-done by Queen City Rail Contractors with lots of new ties, spikes, grade crossings, ballast tamping and lining. The Eastern Shore Railroad looks better than it has in years. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vincent Troia" Subject: [PRR] Prototype Car Float and Barge Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:08:47 -0400 Please provide a suggested PRR prototype for "Car Float and Barge". In addition, could you suggest reference material. Thank you in advance, Vincent N Scale PRR Transition Period ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:11:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] First Welded Rail? The 30's seem to be the first time welded rail was used by most railroads. I had never heard of anyone using steel ties before. Got any details concerning this practice? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:26:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] CONGO coaches It is fairly easy to redo the back end into a square end. Here are the steps: 1. Make a horizontal cut at the roof line to where the corrugations begin in the roof. 2. Make a vertical cut at the edge of the corrugations and remove the boattail roof section. 3. Make a wood block that has the interior thickness and round the corners as a mold. 4. Remove the rear door from the wall casting. 5. Heat the ends of the walls until they can be wrapped around the mold. I used a flood light and checked often for sufficient softness in the plastic. The windows will line up as the end windows. 6. when satisfied with the wall bending, fill in the roof with sheet styrene and filler to the contour desired. 7. Frame up a new door frame using styrene. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:01:51 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] First Welded Rail? --- "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > I keep seeing references to rail "dates" and such, > with the implication > that this information is somewhere on the rail > itself. If so, where and > how would I find this info Look on the web of the rail. Most rail will have raised letters/numbers on the order of an inch high repeated 2 or 3 times on each length, such as: 13158RE OH BS Co STEELTON |||||||| 1936 to quote one I saw last weekend. Not sure what the |||||||| is about (It means something, but I forget what. Rolled in the 8th month?). The 131 is 131 lb/yd, 58RE identifies the cross-section design. OH = Open Hearth (in contrast to Bessemer). BS Co = Bethelehem Steel, STEELTON = the plant. 1936 = the year rolled. The style and content of the marks has been fairly standard for 70 years or so and the practice of marking them somehow is over a century old. Older rail (and there's some out there) often shows a wilder variety of marks. "Fairly standard" notwithstanding, I saw some rail last weekend which had marks stamped into it (rather than raised) which said things like C 140 56 39 4. Haven't a clue what that's telling anyone. (Before some rail maven remarks that those marks make no sense, yep, I didn't recall the exact text, just the general style.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR Track Inspection cars... Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:03:13 -0400 Hi all, I just picked up a NJI model of the PRR's track inspection car. You can view diagrams of it on my site if you're not familiar with this car... http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=inspection_car.gif http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=inspection_car_fp.gif Did the PRR only have one of these? Most of the photos I've seen are of #498014, but I did see one photo of 498011. Is this the same car or did the Pennsy have more than one? I've found photos of the car in Wayner's Cars of the Pennsy and NJI's PRR Heavyweight Cars book... Are there other sources of photos? I'm especially interested in any photos that show the interior? I scaled the floorplan diagram to HO scale as a start on modeling the interior, but the floorplan leaves a lot to the imagination! Any ideas on interior colors? Does anyone know when it was built and when it was scrapped? The only date info I have is that the diagrams were revised in 1938... Also, was the rear vestible closed in at some point? The model and diagrams show an open rear vestibule, but the photo in the Wayner book looks like it has a closed vestibule. Was the car modified or am I misinterpreting the photo? If it was modified, any ideas as to when? Thanks for the help! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:21:26 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Re: tmrc-railfan@mit.edu This came to me from the fellow whose photo collection I mentioned a couple of days ago. --- Stefano wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > could you please forward this email to PRR-talk ?? > Thanks > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:33:04 -0500 (EST) > From: Stefano > To: tmrc-railfan@mit.edu > Subject: tmrc-railfan@mit.edu > > Hi guys, > > Welcome to tmrc-railfan@mit.edu. > This is a New England Railfan mlist, voice of MIT > Railroad > Association. This association disappeared several > years ago, > and now I am trying to recreate it. We are part of > TMRC (tech > model railroad club of MIT), of which I am > governator > (vice-president). > Let do some advertisement to grab other subscribers. > My purpose is to learn railstuff, organize trips, > movies, > seminar.. whatever.. Let`s see what happens ! > > To subscribe/unsubscribe email me > (auro@nietzsche.mit.edu). > > Please spread this email to your rail-friends ! > > Thanks > > Stefano > > ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:32:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] CONGO coaches I left off one step at the end. If you work carefully the only area to paint is the new door and roof section silver and the Tuscan letterboard around the back end of the car. My Tuscan (Floquil) came out a shade light but is very close after I sprayed some Crystal Cote over it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vincent Troia" Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:08:47 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Prototype Car Float and Barge Please provide a suggested PRR prototype for "Car Float and Barge". In addition, could you suggest reference material. Thank you in advance, Vincent N Scale PRR Transition Period -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> Find out the TRUTH about Anyone! Criminal records, unlisted phone numbers, FBI files and more! Grab your Instant Download Now: http://click.egroups.com/1/9017/17/_/586931/_/971801354/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:01:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] First Welded Rail? The lllllll means the month of the year it was rolled. Add up the llll and figure out the month l is Jan ll is Feb and so forth. ----------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ALCo book Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:24:14 -0500 Hello all, I am still in search of the PRR diesel book Volume 1. I have contacted Caboose Hobbies by telephone and they say they are all out of that volume. Please let me know if anyone knows where a copy can be obtained. Thanks all. Jeremy Helms > > Several days ago someone inquired as to where to get the Withers book, PRR > > Diesels, Vol. 1, ALCo RS Series, authored by John D. Hahn Jr.. Sorry > > requestor I lost your posting. > > > > If our host, Merchandise Service does not have it and cannot get it, > > there are still three copies at Caboose Hobbies priced at $12.70. As > > always, I would encourage you to buy from Merchandise Service first in > > appreciation for the "Talk" service. > > > I just learned last evening that Withers, the publisher, has sold out of > volume 1. I also confirmed that the new volume 5 is ready to ship. I should > have them in our system later today. > > Thanks for the plug! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ALCo book Jeremy, List, Check with the Horseshoe Curve Gift Shop. I was there a few weeks ago and purchased the Baldwin Cab and Transfer unit issue, Vol 4. They had others there as well but not sure if they had the RS-2/3 issue, Vol. 1. I know they had some Alco switcher issues and possibly an EMD issue....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:13:44 -0400 From: "cwhary" Subject: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft List, Recent conversation lead to a question needing further resolution. What type coal was preferred by the PRR in their steam engines, Hard or Soft? If both types were used what determining factors were used and how were they implemented? This should lead to some very interesting dialogue. -- Charles E. Whary -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:56:40 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft Greetings to Charles and the group, The PRR used soft coal. Hard coal required a special firebox, the Wooten (sp?) I believe it was called. PRR had easy access to soft coal territories. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 03:13 PM 10/17/2000 -0400, cwhary wrote: >List, > >Recent conversation lead to a question needing further resolution. >What type coal was preferred by the PRR in their steam engines, Hard or Soft? If both types were used what determining factors were used and how were they implemented? This should lead to some very interesting dialogue. > >-- >Charles E. Whary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:15:18 -0400 Charles & List, According to a presentation given by the late Clarence Weaver many years ago the PRR had three (3) major categories of coal. Passenger coal, Freight coal, and Sh*t coal. The latter being reserved for switch engines. This was obviously a tongue-in-cheek statement, but knowing Clarence there was probably a ring of truth to it. Not being up on my coal classifications, I do know PRR used mostly exclusivly bituminous coal (soft). There must have been different grades and mixes, and this is where Mr. Weaver got his 3 categories. Lackawana passenger coal, if were are to believe Miss Phoebe Snow who only traveled on The Road of Anthracite, was alleged to be hard coal. Reading engines on the other hand burned mine run anthracite which is why they were originally designed with the wide Wooten fireboxes. This stuff was so bad you had to have a wide shallow fire just to keep the btu's up enough to boil water. Later the Reading did go over to bituminous. Anyone out there a former PRR fireman or engineer? Maybe you can enlighten us. This is a technology that is getting further and further away. C. Burnley Jr. -----Original Message----- From: cwhary [mailto:cwhary@paonline.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 3:14 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft List, Recent conversation lead to a question needing further resolution. What type coal was preferred by the PRR in their steam engines, Hard or Soft? If both types were used what determining factors were used and how were they implemented? This should lead to some very interesting dialogue. -- Charles E. Whary -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:40:07 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft Hard coal (anthracite) burned a lot slower than soft coal (bituminous). That's why it required a special firebox. The Wooten firebox had a very large grate area so as to expose more coal and produce enough heat from the slow burning anthracite. This wide grate made them easy to spot. The sides of the firebox flared out at the bottom. They were a feature of roads which burned anthracite coal, Reading, LV, D&H, and of course DL&W ("Her gown remained all snowy white, upon the road of anthracite.") Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Drew McGhee wrote: > > Greetings to Charles and the group, > > The PRR used soft coal. Hard coal required a special firebox, the Wooten > (sp?) I believe it was called. PRR had easy access to soft coal territories. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > drm6@psu.edu > http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > > At 03:13 PM 10/17/2000 -0400, cwhary wrote: > >List, > > > >Recent conversation lead to a question needing further resolution. > >What type coal was preferred by the PRR in their steam engines, Hard or > Soft? If both types were used what determining factors were used and how > were they implemented? This should lead to some very interesting dialogue. > > > >-- > >Charles E. Whary > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] PMS This weekend in Naperville Il. Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:42:08 -0500 Hi, Any other PRR modelers attending the Prototype Modelers Seminar in Naperville Il.this Friday & Saturday? Hope to see you if your going, please say hello. Also, I'm booked into a double and would like to share the room (guy I was going with had to work, please contact me off list). Pete Reinhold PRRT&HS #5518 Universal Die & Stampings preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:45:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft Hard coal required a special firebox, the Wooten My understanding is that the Wooten was used so the enignes could burn the fines from the anthracite mines. The idea was that the increased surface area lessened the draft and the possiblity of just blowing the fines up the stack. Lump anthracite would have worked very well in all enignes with little or no ash. The PRR used soft coal because they were the on line suppliers in all probablility. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:48:28 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft --- Drew McGhee wrote: > Greetings to Charles and the group, > > The PRR used soft coal. Hard coal required a special > firebox, the Wooten > (sp?) I believe it was called. PRR had easy access > to soft coal territories. > At: www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/part03.html there is a reprint of part of PRR's Test Plant report on the Baldwin 3-cyl that's in the Franklin Institute now. There, the report says: "39. All of the tests were made with run-of-mine bituminous coal from the Keystone Coal and Coke Company's Crows Nest Mine at Hempfield, Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania. This coal is used at the test plant as standard freight locomotive coal." Crow's Nest mine was about 2 miles east of Greensburg. Crow's Nest, and indeed all mines in Westmoreland county mined bituminous coal. 'Twould be odd if the tests used coal which was not typical of that used every day. Regarding the Wooten firebox, my impression is that it was not designed so that one could burn anthracite; rather, so that one could burn the fine sizes of anthracite which the colleries had been discarding as unmarketable, and which could be bought very cheaply. Assuming that one can burn lump anthracite in a non-Wooten firebox, PRR may at one time have used it in passenger locomotives, as it was clean-burning compared to bituminous coal, albeit more costly. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:51:25 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft > Charles and list: > > The Pennsylvania used soft or bituminous coal exclusively after 1900, as did > most railroads. Anthracite, or hard, coal, while supposedly generating less > smoke, does so because it contains less volatile matter, requiring a larger > firebox grate area to get the equivalent amount of heat (BTU's). The only > reason RDG and others serving Eastern Pennsylvania used anthracite was that > there were no bituminous mines on line, only anthracite mines. PRR, and to a > greater extent LIRR, experimented with Wooten firebox Camelbacks in the > 1890-1900 period (LIRR until 1910) burning anthracite, but saw no advantage. > > Remember, it really galled a railroad in those days to have to pay another > railroad to move its fuel, as vast quantities of coal were burned. > Fortunately, PRR's service area had vast reserves of bituminous coal! > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cwhary" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 3:13 PM > Subject: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft > > > > List, > > > > Recent conversation lead to a question needing further resolution. > > What type coal was preferred by the PRR in their steam engines, Hard or > Soft? If both types were used what determining factors were used and how > were they implemented? This should lead to some very interesting dialogue. > > > > -- > > Charles E. Whary > > -- > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: Welded rail on Northern Division was Re: [PRR] Track Length Date: Tue, 17 Oct 100 16:53:21 -0400 (EDT) At 10:07 AM 10/13/2000 -0400, Robert Zeolla wrote: >One of the things I recently realized is missing when I go to area >operating sessions is the sound of the click-clack of the trains going >across the rail joints due to the extensive use of flex track. > >This brings up a few questions: >Around what year did welded rail become the norm on mainlines? I guess I missed this the first time around. Al Buchan can probably answer the question best for the purposes of a general question: i.e. when did the head MoW person (or whoever) decide never to install more jointed rail unless he had to. As to individual lines, the answer is, perhaps not surprisingly, very individual. The Amtrak ex-PRR main line west of Lancaster is STILL jointed, and may make it into the next millenium (2001) that way, though they ARE threatening :-) to replace it. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:36:40 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] First Welded Rail? (We are getting a tad off of PRR specific...) CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > The 30's seem to be the first time welded rail was used by most railroads. Welding technology improved. Crew expenses to maintain bolted joints went up. The earliest reference i have seen in fact dates to ca 1910 (yesssssss.) It was _trolley_ application. welded joints are good for traction current return and low maintanance in embedded in street trackage. The earliest main line installation (as i may have mentioned) that I am familiar with was ca 1947, GN New Cascade Tunnel. I am sure there were earlier. This installation was of sufficient novelty that Railway Gazatte Inernational, a UK RR Trade mag did an extensive article on it, for a world wide audience.. > I had never heard of anyone using steel ties before. Never been real common in the US. Again, trolleys (buried) lead the way, for minimal maintenance. Digging up streets to replace rotted wood ties is expensive. They also used Stone * concrete. Not 1/4 mi from where i sit, some of these (stone) ties do (recylced) duty as curbstones. Internationally steel ties were more common where trees were scarce. The US is a 'tree rich' country, this is not true in all places. If shipping ties to eg a desert railway somewhere, steel ties are lighter than wood. Shipping vs material costs shift. The installations mentioned were in/near 'steel country'. May have been influenced by sales pitches from steel companies trying out a new product line. Also may have been life benefits in local air conditions. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Soft coal in Eastern Pa. If the Pennsy was burnning soft coal in there locos in Eastern Pa. Where was it coming from? Western Pa.? Mark L . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Soft coal in Eastern Pa. Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:29:34 -0400 PRR purchased coal primarily in western Pennsylvania for locomotive fuel, but also served mines in West Virginia and Ohio. Once it was loaded in a PRR hopper, it was company material and moved "free" (read off the books) to anywhere on the PRR. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 6:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Soft coal in Eastern Pa. > If the Pennsy was burnning soft coal in there locos in Eastern Pa. > Where was it coming from? Western Pa.? Mark L . > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:21:59 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] MP=Axle loadings for the GR&I In a message dated 10/17/2000 8:42:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@egroups.com writes: << I'm not sure how far North of Fort Wayne the L-2s operated on the GR&I. Several N-2 USRA 2-10-2's were assigned. I need to do my homework, but I wonder if the extra set of drivers spread the weight better on the track involved. >> Apparently not that well. The L-2s' heaviest axle loadings (axles 1 and 3) were 55200 pounds. All 5 of the N-2sa axles were heavier than that, ranging from 55600 (#2) to 63200 (#4). Reference -- Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders No. 109-J, dated May 15, 1945. And if you wonder about N-1s - they totalled 54000 pounds more on drivers than the N-2sa. Their LIGHTEST driver axle (#4) carried 65500 pounds. Rick Tipton -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> Find out Anything about Anyone! NET DETECTIVE 2000 http://click.egroups.com/1/9015/17/_/586931/_/971836922/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:56:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft In a message dated 10/17/2000 2:08:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << Lump anthracite would have worked very well in all enignes with little or no ash. >> Actually, not so. Early efforts to burn anthracite in locomotives (we are talking pre-Civil War) failed until more appropriate fireboxes were developed. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:54:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal: Hard vs. Soft In a message dated 10/17/2000 1:30:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com writes: << Reading engines on the other hand burned mine run anthracite which is why they were originally designed with the wide Wooten fireboxes. This stuff was so bad you had to have a wide shallow fire just to keep the btu's up enough to boil water. Later the Reading did go over to bituminous. >> The size of the Wooten fire box reflects the rate at which all anthracite burns and releases heat, not the "badness" of the coal. Anthracite coal was a premium fuel. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:01:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Soft coal in Eastern Pa. In a message dated 10/17/2000 3:58:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net writes: << If the Pennsy was burnning soft coal in there locos in Eastern Pa. Where was it coming from? Western Pa.? >> Semi-bituminous coal (an excellent steam raising coal) was available from the Broad Top field as early as 1856. The Pennsy carried large amounts for its own purposes and adopted coal in all locos in the early 1860s (see Annual Reports of that era) and reported large quanities of Broad Top coal being moved east already at that time. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:13:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Soft coal in Eastern Pa. In a message dated 10/17/2000 3:58:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net writes: << f the Pennsy was burnning soft coal in there locos in Eastern Pa. Where was it coming from? Western Pa.? >> One other thought -- there are also bituminous coal deposits in Lycoming, Tioga and adjacent counties. The Susquehanna and NY, which connected with the Elmira Br. at Ralston, served some mines in this field. One was the source of its loco coal down to the end of S&NY operation. I have not been able to determine if any of this coal was interchanged with the Pennsy in "modern" (30s) years. ANy one know? Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] K4 & L1 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:37:13 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C03893.2D125CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Question. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Yes this does = relate to a PRR question. =20 I know that the L1 and K4 shared the same boiler. Was one developed = before the other. i.e., was the boiler designed for passenger service = and then some bright engineer decided it would also work as a freight = engine too? Or was it designed from the get-go to serve double duty by = making certain changes? thanks, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C03893.2D125CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Question. Which came first the = chicken or the=20 egg? Yes this does relate to a PRR question.

I know that the L1 and K4 shared the = same=20 boiler. Was one developed before the other. i.e., was the = boiler=20 designed for passenger service and then some bright engineer decided it = would=20 also work as a freight engine too? Or was it designed from the = get-go to=20 serve double duty by making certain changes?

thanks,

Kris
------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C03893.2D125CE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & L1 Kris, Here is a part answer. L1 #1752 was the first L1 Class, It was completed in April 1914. Juniata Construction number 2816. The first K4 #1737, was completed in May 1914, Construction number 2825. As you can see only a hand full of other locos were built in between these 2 half sisters. Although the L1 was completed first, my opinion was that the K4 was designed first. I say so because it was the K29 of 1911 that led to the K4 design, not the L1. It must have been the Pennsy Brains that decided to go ahead and design the L1 using the same boiler. The L1 really didn't have a predecessor. With the success of the Fat Boilered K29 Pacific, the K4 couldn't fail. Knowing this they figured the L1 couldn't fail either. So both were built in the same time frame.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 03:55:57 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] First Welded Rail? A reply to my reply --- robert netzlof wrote: > ...I saw some rail > which had marks stamped into it (rather > than raised) which said things like C 140 56 39 > 4. Shortly after pressing the send button I thought, "Gee Bob, why didn't you think to look at the _other_ side of the rail? You dolt." "Too soon we get old, too late smart." ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:44:26 -0400 From: "cwhary" Subject: [PRR] Thank you all List, Many thanx to all who have help put the coal question to resolution. -- Charles E. Whary -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & L1 Kris, List, ��As a side note I found something to add to my post from last night. I stated that the first L1 was completed in April 1914 and the first K4 was completed a month later. This is correct. It is interesting to see that the next L1 was completed in September, just 5 months later and more soon after. The second K4 wasn't completed until May of 1917, a full 3 years later than the first, #1737. It appears extennsive testing was done on the K4 before it went into full production. The L1 on the other hand was built in masses soon after the completion of the first. I would have thought it would have been the exact oppisite because the K4 had the K29 as the advance groundwork, the L1 had nothing to go by. I guess the Boiler and chassis of the L1 prooved itself rather quickly. the K4 needed tweeking......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & L1 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:48:20 -0400 List: Consider this possibility concerning rapid construction of L1's vs, the delay in producing more K4's; PRR already had large Pacifics of the K2 and K3 classes for top passenger trains, but nothing larger than a Consolidation for freight power. I imagine the need for larger freight power by 1915 was an extremely powerful one. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & L1 > > Kris, List, > > As a side note I found something to add to my post > from last night. I stated that the first L1 was completed in April 1914 > and the first K4 was completed a month later. This is correct. It is > interesting to see that the next L1 was completed in September, just 5 > months later and more soon after. The second K4 wasn't completed until > May of 1917, a full 3 years later than the first, #1737. It appears > extennsive testing was done on the K4 before it went into full > production. The L1 on the other hand was built in masses soon after the > completion of the first. I would have thought it would have been the > exact oppisite because the K4 had the K29 as the advance groundwork, the > L1 had nothing to go by. I guess the Boiler and chassis of the L1 > prooved itself rather quickly. the K4 needed tweeking......Gary > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 & L1 Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:02:33 -0400 PRR-List: And by the end of WW 1, the Santa Fe N-1 and N-2 engines where the preferred freight engines of Lines West. For Lines East, the I-1 decapod was proving itself to be the freight engine to conquer the Alleganies. And with the introduction of the M-1 in 1926-1930, the L-1 unfortunately became surplus motive power and was the first engine to be stored when business was slow. Ted -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 8:48 AM To: Gary Mittner; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & L1 List: Consider this possibility concerning rapid construction of L1's vs, the delay in producing more K4's; PRR already had large Pacifics of the K2 and K3 classes for top passenger trains, but nothing larger than a Consolidation for freight power. I imagine the need for larger freight power by 1915 was an extremely powerful one. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & L1 > > Kris, List, > > As a side note I found something to add to my post > from last night. I stated that the first L1 was completed in April 1914 > and the first K4 was completed a month later. This is correct. It is > interesting to see that the next L1 was completed in September, just 5 > months later and more soon after. The second K4 wasn't completed until > May of 1917, a full 3 years later than the first, #1737. It appears > extennsive testing was done on the K4 before it went into full > production. The L1 on the other hand was built in masses soon after the > completion of the first. I would have thought it would have been the > exact oppisite because the K4 had the K29 as the advance groundwork, the > L1 had nothing to go by. I guess the Boiler and chassis of the L1 > prooved itself rather quickly. the K4 needed tweeking......Gary > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & L1 Gregg, Very true on the freight loco comment!. Although the Passenger trains of the time were starting to get heavier, the Pennsy needed something pretty quick to keep up with that also. The K2's and K3's were just over 32,000 lb. tractive effort locos. The big power jump came with the K29 to 43,000 lbs. This was much needed for those heavy trains. The 1914 K4 settled in at 41,000 lbs TE. But more income was probably in the freight business. not the Passenger busniess. Thus the quicker need for the L1?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 & L1 Ted, Goes to show you there is always something better just around the corner. Most of the time anyway. The L1 was soon beat out by the N class and then the I's and then the M's and then the J's. The K4 however had no rival. Its design was good enough to beat out any of the future passenger designs. Including an order for 100? more M1's that were cancelled in favor of more K4s, the Baldwin builds I believe.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] CONGO coaches Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:14:52 -0400 You posted the following answer to the PRR list, but I didn't receive the question. Can you send it to me? Thanks, Lew Matt PRRT&HS -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: asmiller@mitre.org ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] CONGO coaches >It is fairly easy to redo the back end into a square end. Here are the steps: >1. Make a horizontal cut at the roof line to where the corrugations begin in >the roof. >2. Make a vertical cut at the edge of the corrugations and remove the >boattail roof section. >3. Make a wood block that has the interior thickness and round the corners as >a mold. >4. Remove the rear door from the wall casting. >5. Heat the ends of the walls until they can be wrapped around the mold. I >used a flood light and checked often for sufficient softness in the plastic. >The windows will line up as the end windows. >6. when satisfied with the wall bending, fill in the roof with sheet styrene >and filler to the contour desired. >7. Frame up a new door frame using styrene. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Book found Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:28:58 -0500 Hello all, Thanks to Evan on this list I have obtained a copy of the ALCo RS book from Wither's publishing. Thanks to all the help and suggestions on this list. They really helped in this search. Jeremy Helms Bellevue, Nebraska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:19:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Jack Hahn PRR Diesels Volume I Found From: Jerry Britton Over the last couple of days there have been a few posts about the Jack Hahn series of "Pennsylvania Railroad Locomotive" books. It was mentioned that Volume I, on Alco RS-series, was out-of-print. The news came as a shock even to me, a Withers Publishing dealer, as I had just sold my last copy thinking I would simply re-order another for myself. Yikes! I confirmed that Withers is out, with no reprint planned. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, the bookstore at the Strasburg Railroad, the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, and any other places I could find online were all out. However, Jeremy Helms came through with a source where I secured one and THEY HAVE SIX COPIES LEFT...so act fast! On 10/18/00 1:04 PM, Jeremy & Soni Helms (jeremy-sonihelms@home.com) wrote: > It is Caboose Hobbies in Denver at (303) 777-6766. Ask for Keith! I'll have Volume 5, on all PRR F-M units in stock momentarily. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:49:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Henry Jones From: Jerry Britton If there is a Henry Jones from Louisville KY on either of these lists, please contact me off-list. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Life Like Releases Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:12:28 +1000 Listers, A bit off subject maybe but here is the latest announcements of locomotives from Life Like:- November 2000 2-8-8-2 in N&W, UP and Virginian. April 2001 0-8-0 in C&O, MP, NH, PM, IHB, HM and Undecorated. April 2001 GP7 in AT&SF, PRR, CB&Q and Undecorated. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:31:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] First Welded Rail? In a message dated 10/17/2000 6:46:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, davep@quik.com writes: > Internationally steel ties were more common where trees were > scarce. The US is a 'tree rich' country, this is not true in all > places. If shipping ties to eg a desert railway somewhere, > steel ties are lighter than wood. Shipping vs material costs > shift. Another factor: termites. Steel ties used heavily in East Africa, e.g. Kenya, for this reason. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:30:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Releases From: Jerry Britton On 10/18/00 9:12 PM, Graeme Nitz at (prr@unite.com.au) wrote: > A bit off subject maybe but here is the latest announcements of locomotives > from Life Like:- > > November 2000 > > 2-8-8-2 in N&W, UP and Virginian. The "Merchandise Announce" list posted this about two weeks ago. > > > April 2001 > > 0-8-0 in C&O, MP, NH, PM, IHB, HM and Undecorated. > > > April 2001 > > GP7 in AT&SF, PRR, CB&Q and Undecorated. > I'm curious as to where you got your information on this one. Life Like has not announced this to dealers, nor has Walthers shown it on their "Coming soon" pages. Furthermore, Life Like already made two runs of PRR GP-7's for a total of five road numbers...with many still available in the dealer channel. Do you have any more info? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:23:51 -0400 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Releases >> GP7 in AT&SF, PRR, CB&Q and Undecorated. >> > I'm curious as to where you got your information on this one. Life Like > has not announced this to dealers, nor has Walthers shown it on their > "Coming soon" pages. Furthermore, Life Like already made two runs of PRR > GP-7's for a total of five road numbers...with many still available in > the dealer channel. Do you have any more info? Different phase, I think. I've seen the reference elsewhere, probably from either the Aussies or the Europeans -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Releases Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:37:27 +1000 > I'm curious as to where you got your information on this one. Life Like has > not announced this to dealers, nor has Walthers shown it on their "Coming > soon" pages. Furthermore, Life Like already made two runs of PRR GP-7's for > a total of five road numbers...with many still available in the dealer > channel. Do you have any more info? Jerry, It appears the local Distributors always announce the releases early. The PRR numbers are 8797 & 8804. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 04:17:33 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] was: First Welded Rail? now: Steel Ties --- BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/17/2000 6:46:08 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > davep@quik.com writes: > > > Internationally steel ties were more common where > trees were > > scarce. The US is a 'tree rich' country, this > is not true in all > > places. If shipping ties to eg a desert railway > somewhere, > > steel ties are lighter than wood. Shipping vs > material costs > > shift. > > Another factor: termites. Steel ties used heavily > in East Africa, e.g. > Kenya, for this reason. > Didn't the original post here speak of the "...160+ miles of track on the B&LE"? B&LE was a vassal of the Carnegie Steel Company, which carried steel ties in their shape book for decades, hoping someone would buy them. But remember how track occupancy circuits detect a train. How could that work if there's a steel crosstie shorting between the rails every 18"? It couldn't, and I suspect therein lies a major reason for the failure of the steel crosstie to sweep wood from the PRR and other big-time RR's. (Yes, I suppose there would be a way to electrically isolate the rail from the steel tie, but now there's a layer of rubber or pressed fibreboard or gutta percha or something between each tie and the rail, and there goes the claimed simplicity and durability of the steel tie.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:41:41 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] your prr model collection Howdy, About 2 weeks ago, a reasonable collection of HO PRR brass (40+locos) was auctioned off on ebay by a NYC area hobby shop. Unfortunately, this appears to have been an estate sale of a poorly documented collection and the hobby shop was not knowledgable in PRR brass. The models and boxes were not matched (although most were there and you could make the matches using the ebay photos) and there were no descriptions. While I'll admit to benefitting from the lowered bidding, this was a wake up call to me regarding my own collection. I'm sure that the estate could have made at least 25% more had the collection been properly cataloged and boxed. I'm still a "young-un" in terms of PRR interest and modeling, at a spry 38, but you never know...thus, I plan to put scans of each loco in each box, to help match them up, and add a 3x5 card describing the loco (#, paint etc). I already have a FilemakerPro database of all my locos that would give my wife a description of all modifications such as sound installation, and the purchase price I (or in many cases, she) paid. The final thing I want to do is offer a service to you PRR modelers out there - please put my name, number, and email (or anyone else who is capable) in with your collection, along with a note that I have offered to help value/catalog/arrange your collection. I am posting this to both PRR-Talk and CYBER-Talk, with the idea that perhaps CYBER-Talk might organize and offer this service via the internet. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:02:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] your prr model collection From: Jerry Britton I second Bruce's recommendation. I have an online roster of my collection, which includes all the data Bruce suggest, including purchase price and, eventually, photos. The purchase price, date, and source are not distributed via web, but one can review it at the web server console. I have instructions on its use in my "What If" file in the file cabinet. I heartily endorse Bruce's idea. The idea of the Cyber Division also handling estate settlement is also a worthy one. BTW, Bruce, feel free to place my name and number in your collection! Actually, since I have switched to N scale, your spouse/family is sure to not be taken advantage of...top dollar!!! On 10/19/00 2:41 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > About 2 weeks ago, a reasonable collection of HO PRR brass (40+locos) was > auctioned off on ebay by a NYC area hobby shop. Unfortunately, this > appears to have been an estate sale of a poorly documented collection and > the hobby shop was not knowledgable in PRR brass. The models and boxes > were not matched (although most were there and you could make the matches > using the ebay photos) and there were no descriptions. While I'll admit to > benefitting from the lowered bidding, this was a wake up call to me > regarding my own collection. I'm sure that the estate could have made at > least 25% more had the collection been properly cataloged and boxed. > > I'm still a "young-un" in terms of PRR interest and modeling, at a spry 38, > but you never know...thus, I plan to put scans of each loco in each box, to > help match them up, and add a 3x5 card describing the loco (#, paint etc). > I already have a FilemakerPro database of all my locos that would give my > wife a description of all modifications such as sound installation, and the > purchase price I (or in many cases, she) paid. > > The final thing I want to do is offer a service to you PRR modelers out > there - please put my name, number, and email (or anyone else who is > capable) in with your collection, along with a note that I have offered to > help value/catalog/arrange your collection. I am posting this to both > PRR-Talk and CYBER-Talk, with the idea that perhaps CYBER-Talk might > organize and offer this service via the internet. > --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:13:24 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] your prr model collection Bruce and Listers, I have an Excel inventory for my collection and I have given instructions to my daughter about disposal, since the stuff goes to her on my demise. Several of my colleagues in my model railroad group have done the same including one guy with over 300 Train Miniature cars! Tom Mahon "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > Howdy, > > About 2 weeks ago, a reasonable collection of HO PRR brass (40+locos) was > auctioned off on ebay by a NYC area hobby shop. Unfortunately, this > appears to have been an estate sale of a poorly documented collection and > the hobby shop was not knowledgable in PRR brass. The models and boxes > were not matched (although most were there and you could make the matches > using the ebay photos) and there were no descriptions. While I'll admit to > benefitting from the lowered bidding, this was a wake up call to me > regarding my own collection. I'm sure that the estate could have made at > least 25% more had the collection been properly cataloged and boxed. > > I'm still a "young-un" in terms of PRR interest and modeling, at a spry 38, > but you never know...thus, I plan to put scans of each loco in each box, to > help match them up, and add a 3x5 card describing the loco (#, paint etc). > I already have a FilemakerPro database of all my locos that would give my > wife a description of all modifications such as sound installation, and the > purchase price I (or in many cases, she) paid. > > The final thing I want to do is offer a service to you PRR modelers out > there - please put my name, number, and email (or anyone else who is > capable) in with your collection, along with a note that I have offered to > help value/catalog/arrange your collection. I am posting this to both > PRR-Talk and CYBER-Talk, with the idea that perhaps CYBER-Talk might > organize and offer this service via the internet. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [CYBER] Re: [PRR] your prr model collection Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:49:47 -0400 Well this timing is relavant! I am in the process of breaking up an HO model railroad collection/estate for a late friend's wife. He doesn't have any brass, but he has a lot of trains. He was interested in PRR, RDG, N&W and ATSF. He also had a lot of European trains. If anyone is interested, I will e-mail you whenever an item goes on e-bay for auction. Just send me an e-mail with "E-bay auction request" as the subject. Put nothing but your e-mail address in the message area. If you add any other info, my auto mailer won't work. Current auctions are: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=472976178 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=472949367 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=473001344 The widow thanks you! Lew Matt -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. ; prr-talk@dsop.com ; Cyber-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, October 19, 2000 3:06 PM Subject: [CYBER] Re: [PRR] your prr model collection >I second Bruce's recommendation. > >I have an online roster of my collection, which includes all the data Bruce >suggest, including purchase price and, eventually, photos. The purchase >price, date, and source are not distributed via web, but one can review it >at the web server console. I have instructions on its use in my "What If" >file in the file cabinet. I heartily endorse Bruce's idea. > >The idea of the Cyber Division also handling estate settlement is also a >worthy one. > >BTW, Bruce, feel free to place my name and number in your collection! >Actually, since I have switched to N scale, your spouse/family is sure to >not be taken advantage of...top dollar!!! > >On 10/19/00 2:41 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) >wrote: > >> About 2 weeks ago, a reasonable collection of HO PRR brass (40+locos) was >> auctioned off on ebay by a NYC area hobby shop. Unfortunately, this >> appears to have been an estate sale of a poorly documented collection and >> the hobby shop was not knowledgable in PRR brass. The models and boxes >> were not matched (although most were there and you could make the matches >> using the ebay photos) and there were no descriptions. While I'll admit to >> benefitting from the lowered bidding, this was a wake up call to me >> regarding my own collection. I'm sure that the estate could have made at >> least 25% more had the collection been properly cataloged and boxed. >> >> I'm still a "young-un" in terms of PRR interest and modeling, at a spry 38, >> but you never know...thus, I plan to put scans of each loco in each box, to >> help match them up, and add a 3x5 card describing the loco (#, paint etc). >> I already have a FilemakerPro database of all my locos that would give my >> wife a description of all modifications such as sound installation, and the >> purchase price I (or in many cases, she) paid. >> >> The final thing I want to do is offer a service to you PRR modelers out >> there - please put my name, number, and email (or anyone else who is >> capable) in with your collection, along with a note that I have offered to >> help value/catalog/arrange your collection. I am posting this to both >> PRR-Talk and CYBER-Talk, with the idea that perhaps CYBER-Talk might >> organize and offer this service via the internet. >> > >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) >business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should >take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the >message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, >when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] your prr model collection Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:06:17 +1000 This is a subject I have seen some tragedies happen. I was at a school fete some years ago and spotted 4 big boxes of HO Victorian Railways rolling stock including about 10 Brass loco's without boxes and heaps of scratchbuilt. When I asked the lady stated "Ohh those old 'toys' we sold the lot for $25.00" !!!!! What a shame. I did a quick calculation and came up with a figure of about $6000. Someone got a bargain. For this reason I have a comprehensive Database with all my stock listed with all modifications, how much I paid for it and when/where purchased. I am now beginning to take pictures and add them to the DB so people can see as well as read the items. The Australian Model Railway Association, Victorain Branch of which I am a member has a Bereavment Scheme where several volunteers will value a member's collection for the Family. I believe the NMRA has a similar scheme. At the very least ask a friend in the hobby to help out your family. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:15:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 & L1 Kris, list, Others have already covered this, but here's my 2 cents. The K4s and L1s were designed at the same time, with the L1s being born a month before K4s 1737. There was nothing wrong with the K4s design initially (tractive effort was quickly raised from about 41,000 pounds to the standard 44,460 shortly after construction, but I've not heard what changes to the engine were made to raise it; boiler pressure and cylinder dimensions for 1737 match her later sisters). To avoid opening a can of worms, I will pointedly not mention the stoker issue for the Lines East engines. PRR's biggest need at the time was for more freight power due to the traffic buildup that commenced shortly before the outbreak of WWI in Europe (August 1914). PRR had it's own erection hall and those of Baldwin and Lima fully occupied with L1s construction. PRR preferred to build it's own passenger power (just one example; Baldwin got the 1922-23 orders for I1sa construction, while Juniata shops built the 1923 and 1924 series K4s engines) when possible. The exception to the rule is the majority of the 1927 K4s production (5400-5474); Baldwin could build the engines faster, and got the majority of the order. By 1917, there was shop floor space available for series production, and K4s engines started bumping smaller power. Unlike WWII, where nothing was scrapped or sold from late 1941 to 1945, some E2 class engines and probably some other classes (I'm away from my reference books) were scrapped during WWI. Doug --- Kris Kollar wrote, in part > > > I know that the L1 and K4 shared the same boiler. > Was one developed before the other> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:35:57 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] was: First Welded Rail? now: Steel Ties (Drifting off topic....) robert netzlof wrote, in part: > > davep@quik.com writes: > > > Internationally steel ties were more common where > > trees were scarce. > Didn't the original post here speak of the "...160+ > miles of track on the B&LE"? > B&LE was a vassal of the Carnegie Steel Company, which > carried steel ties in their shape book for decades, > hoping someone would buy them. Which i beieve i pointed out....8)>> > But remember how track occupancy circuits detect a train. Indeed. _if_ track circuits are present. Roughly 50% of US track miles are _not_ track circuited. Internationally, the figure maybe lower, especially on developing railways. Much of the UK (NOT Exactly a developing railway) was not track circuited except at interlockings until (relatively) recently). Where desired, an alternative to track circuits is the axle counter. No broken rail protection, but they keep track of trains just fine. Given a good train order (or equivalent) system track circuits are a luxury. > How could that work if there's a steel crosstie > shorting between the rails every 18"? It couldn't, and > I suspect therein lies a major reason for the failure > of the steel crosstie to sweep wood from the PRR and > other big-time RR's. Where they used track circuits. Such are not universal. > (Yes, I suppose there would be a way to electrically > isolate the rail from the steel tie, but now there's a > layer of rubber or pressed fibreboard or gutta percha > or something between each tie and the rail, and there > goes the claimed simplicity and durability of the > steel tie.) Sure. Check carefully on concrete ties. Each Tie Is Insulated. (concrete, in bulk, is a reasonably good conductor. Especially when rebar is present. In fact building ground systems sometimes are done by tying to the rebar.) Tie insulation works better with modern synthetics than with 1930's materials. 'twould be instructive to know what the P&LE used: track circuits, axle counters or nothing at all... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:53:38 -0400 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] new passenger equipment >From the diesel list, I found this nugget; From context I assume he means HO. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: 10/20/2000 03:31:36 AM -0400 From: Andy Harman To: Diesel Modelers Mailing List Subject: [D] Very Fast Rosemont Show Roundup [snip] Ron Sebastian of Des Plaines Hobbies showed me a test shot of a PRR ACF coach in the works for next year. There is much murmuring about great passenger car stuff to come in HO, this is the first "next generation" sample I've held in my hands and may even be familiar to those with some older magazines laying around from, um, maybe 10 years ago ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] new passenger equipment Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:11:08 -0400 Derrick and the List: Did Ron Sebastian mention the source of this model car (I assume the P85)? This model may be from the ill-fated Middle Division's attempted to produce this car about 6 years ago. From what I understand, the model and it's molds were almost complete but contractual disputes arose between the Middle Division and the diemaker resulting in litigation and delay. Ted -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 8:54 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] new passenger equipment >From the diesel list, I found this nugget; From context I assume he means HO. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: 10/20/2000 03:31:36 AM -0400 From: Andy Harman To: Diesel Modelers Mailing List Subject: [D] Very Fast Rosemont Show Roundup [snip] Ron Sebastian of Des Plaines Hobbies showed me a test shot of a PRR ACF coach in the works for next year. There is much murmuring about great passenger car stuff to come in HO, this is the first "next generation" sample I've held in my hands and may even be familiar to those with some older magazines laying around from, um, maybe 10 years ago ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:25:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] new passenger equipment On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Andrews, Ted wrote: > Derrick and the List: > > Did Ron Sebastian mention the source of this model car (I assume the P85)? > This model may be from the ill-fated Middle Division's attempted to produce > this car about 6 years ago. From what I understand, the model and it's molds > were almost complete but contractual disputes arose between the Middle > Division and the diemaker resulting in litigation and delay. You saw as much as I did; That said, Ron reads the diesel list, so I dropped him an email and will let you know what I hear. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:28:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] was: First Welded Rail? now: Steel Ties 0100,0100,0100Dave mentioned axle counter systems in lieu of track circuits. This is clearly doable, but it's a new one on me. Where were these used? In North America? On PRR? Are they still in use? Are/were they approved for use with automatic signal systems (i.e. where safety is critical)? I believe trolley systems may have used pole counters to operate signals. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dmurp670@cs.com Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:11:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] Westside Locomotive Works is back in Production! >Westside Locomotive Works is back in Production! > >After a seven-month hiatus, I have resumed custom painting on a limited >basis! Former locomotive kit reviewer for MR magazine! 15 years of >experience! Brass steam my specialty! Diesels and cabooses, too! A thirty >year PRR modeler! Email for a price list and samples of my work! > >Don Murphy >The Doctor of Steam >dmurp670@cs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [PRR] Renovo Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:24:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C03AE4.8DCF4720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg Was back to Renovo during the Flaming Foliage Weekend. Got pictures for = you and the shops are all intact. They are not near them at all. The = bridge over to the shops is gone though. Any train going through could = have brought it down at any time. Was rotted real bad. Might be going = back in two weeks, not sure yet. Got out to Cross Forks too. I'll see ya = later. Wayne ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C03AE4.8DCF4720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Greg

Was back to Renovo during the Flaming Foliage = Weekend.=20 Got pictures for you and the shops are all intact. They are not near = them at=20 all. The bridge over to the shops is gone though. Any train going = through could=20 have brought it down at any time. Was rotted real bad. Might be going = back in=20 two weeks, not sure yet. Got out to Cross Forks too. I'll see ya=20 later.

Wayne

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C03AE4.8DCF4720-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:16:31 -0400 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] they(!) are P85s Well, this doesn't exactly answer the question, but... ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- [] Actually we are releasing two PRR P85 kits. The first is an all plastic N Scale one that should be shipping in a week or so. The HO kit has a lot farther to go and will be sometime in 2001. Des Plaines Hobbies ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Deimling" Subject: [PRR] Triumph III Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 08:47:47 -0700 I just received a copy of Triumph III. It is an interesting work. I was sorely dissapointed by the photo repro quality. It looked like it was eith scanned at low resolution or printed that way. Too bad. I am looking for the definitive book that does it all right. This isn't it. I don't know how accurate the text since I am not a historian of the road. Do others share my opinion? Gene Deimling PRRH&TS #6418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Deimling" Subject: [PRR] Buff vs. Dulux Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 09:27:23 -0700 I have asked a question or two before about decal colors for PRR lettering buff. I have the PRRH&TS color chip and it compares closely to the color used by Champ on their F-unit decals. I look at photos in various books and my eyes are seeing a slightly brighter and richer color. It appears to me that the buff has more yellow in it. Did the diesel painters use a different shade of buff? Thanks, Gene Deimling PRRH&TS # 6418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:16:49 -0600 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] Saginaw, MI, PRR cabin car for sale > PRR Class N5C Cabin Car, currently painted Conrail > blue #23071, former PRR 477825, built 1942. Roller > bearing trucks, break lines and couplers are > functional. Included are PRR iron wood-burning stove > and kerosene PRR marker lamps. Stored under roof for > the past eleven years at the Saginaw, Michigan CSX > roundhouse. Asking price is $4500. Call (810) > 678-2350 > Sounds like a good price to me! Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 113 West 17th Street, Leadville, CO 80461-3416 (After 1 Jan. 2001: 109 South Madison Street, Cortez, CO 81321-3733) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 17:02:19 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Wilmington Station Model Hi All, Just in case you were interested, the Trainstuff "collossus" project, the Wilmington DE station has started to ship! I got mine a couple of days ago and WOW!!!! The whole thing really is "museum quality". While the whole station will be modeled, the current shipment includes the Southern (larger) building. This is definitely not a kit for the faint at heart...the shear number of windows (all faithfully reproduced as double hung, just like the prototype) is staggering and each one must be very carefull filed out. It will take me a few evenings to get these wall sections prepped for paint and assembly (and painting looks to be the second BIG challenge!)! I originally thought that Dayna and John were making a mistake by casting the walls as a single section, rather than modularly, like DPM, but now I see that this will make assembly a whole lot easier. I'm still trying to figure out how they manage to cast such huge pieces...the roof is all angles, and is cast as a constant thickness piece. Some suggestions I should pass on...square up the building UPSIDE DOWN...this will make a perfect roof line. Don't worry about the bottom of the walls being even as a careful examination will show the grade should cover these. Don't just cut the "brace" out of the wall on trackside - cut it at 45 degrees so that the cornice (stunningly detailed) will match the stairwell cornice. I've got to get to work on my station as I hope to take it to Prototype Rails in Cocoa beach in January, as a PRRMO module BTW, some inside "stuff" from John...he's just about ready to cast the first run of the PRR 90F82 tender, and he's only going to make 50, so get your reserves in (I believe Jerry carries Trainstuff in Merchandise Service) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:11:01 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] Steel Ties/Axle Counters [Are we getting off topic?] bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Dave mentioned axle counter systems in lieu of track circuits. > This is clearly doable, but it's a new one on me. Where were these used? 'internationally' is the best i can do. Finding specific instances would take digging. >In North America? Mostly not. > On PRR? Dunno. > Are they still in use? Near as I know, yes. 'somewhere in the world'. >Are/were they approved for use with automatic signal systems >(i.e. where safety is critical)? To my understanding, yes. > I believe trolley systems may have used pole counters to operate signals. I had not heard of _counters_. There were (are) numerous installations where an insulated section, paralleling sense wires, and other means were used to allow the omotorman to select a route at a junction. May have been 'counters' also... best dwp > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 23:41:43 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] Re: Steel Ties/Axle Counters [Are we getting off topic?] davep wrote: > [Are we getting off topic?] > bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > Dave mentioned axle counter systems in lieu of track circuits. > > This is clearly doable, but it's a new one on me. Where were these used? > 'internationally' is the best i can do. Finding specific > instances would take digging. > > Are they still in use? > Near as I know, yes. 'somewhere in the world'. A casual google search turns up references to UK, Taiwan & Australia. I've posted an inquiry to misc.transport.rail.misc as i am curious as to current status... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:00:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Axle Counters Axel counters are a part of every automated "hot box" detector - The alarm goes off and specifies how many axels back into the train the problem is at. These things are fun on steam loco trips, as the firebox/ashpan almost always trips them. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:32:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Book From: Robert Hornsby I found a glaring error in the new Morning Sun book TRACKSIDE UNDER PENNSY WIRES by Shuman & Plant. Referring to the red GG1's, at least once in the text and once in the caption of a photo, it states that there were only two red GG1's. I recall that there were ten GG1's painted red to pull the new stainless steel Budd built train sets for the Congressional and the Senator. As mentioned earlier by someone who was looking for HO models of these cars, they were all stainless steel with a red name board and red keystones at the ends. The ten GG1's were painted red just for these trains. (Granted, toward the end they were used anywhere.) My dad retired from the Budd company railcar division and many are the times he took me through the plant to see cars under construction. I learned much about passenger cars, and in some cases, about the locomotives that would be pulling the trains. I recall seeing the first RDC at the company. Inside the car there were several different seats from which the buyer could choose from. I could go on and on of my experiences. But there were ten red GG1's, not two! Bob Hornsby roberthornsby@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 12:30:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] New Book On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Robert Hornsby wrote: > I found a glaring error in the new Morning Sun book TRACKSIDE UNDER > PENNSY WIRES by Shuman & Plant. > > Referring to the red GG1's, at least once in the text and once in the > caption of a photo, it states that there were only two red GG1's. I Read more carefully. It says only two were painted red *with the single broad yellow stripe*. I don't know if that's true (it sounds right) but that's considerably different than "only two were painted red" -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:38:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New Book Yes correct but there were only two painted Tuscan red with the single stripe scheme. That is what I implied from the caption. ----------Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:55:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilmington Station Model Bruce & list - While we would like to take all the credit for Wilmington we can't. The masters were built by Earl T. Hackett who also wrote the article in the May 1999 issue of Mainline Modeler about the station. Earl is a very meticulous modeler and it shows in the detail of this first building. The "clock tower" building is even more intricate. So many thanks to Earl, for his many hours of work. Dayna Trainstuff LLC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:53:38 -0400 From: David ott Subject: [PRR] Re:(PRR)New Book There were 2 Red with single stripes, 4907 and 4916. David ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:26:42 -0700 From: Charles Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] New Book Sorry to barge in here, but Bob's right, there were 10 G's in Tuscan (not counting 4877 that never wore tuscan until NJT did it's outstanding jog of restoration and painting, thanks to Bob Burshtin--if I recall his name correctly). Anyhow, the tuscan G's were: #4856, 4857, 4876, 4908-4913, and 4929. Now for anybody who cares about the silver G's, there were three of them: #4866, 4872, and 4880. BTW, only 4872 had the shadow keystone at the same height as the tuscan and DGLE units; they were different on the other two. Chuck Friedlein Robert Hornsby wrote: > I found a glaring error in the new Morning Sun book TRACKSIDE UNDER > PENNSY WIRES by Shuman & Plant. > > Referring to the red GG1's, at least once in the text and once in the > caption of a photo, it states that there were only two red GG1's. I > recall that there were ten GG1's painted red to pull the new stainless > steel Budd built train sets for the Congressional and the Senator. As > mentioned earlier by someone who was looking for HO models of these cars, > they were all stainless steel with a red name board and red keystones at > the ends. The ten GG1's were painted red just for these trains. > (Granted, toward the end they were used anywhere.) > > My dad retired from the Budd company railcar division and many are the > times he took me through the plant to see cars under construction. I > learned much about passenger cars, and in some cases, about the > locomotives that would be pulling the trains. I recall seeing the first > RDC at the company. Inside the car there were several different seats > from which the buyer could choose from. I could go on and on of my > experiences. But there were ten red GG1's, not two! > > Bob Hornsby > roberthornsby@juno.com > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:52:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Triumph" Series From: Jerry Britton Just a note that, due to a lot of requests, "Merchandise Service" now offers the "Triumph" series of books from Roberts Publishing. Volumes 1-3 are available at a price of $50 each. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:29:45 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches NDPRR Writes in Reply: <> I am not sure what your level of modeling demans but these cars are far from state-of-art cars... I'll pass, thanks. <> Correct, Walthers is doing a post war Budd Serries Light weight corrugated passenger cars. Jerry and I have reported this several times both here and in my Scuttlebutt column in Mainline Modeler Magazine. I have faith that the quality will all that their AMTRAK cars have been or better. Myself and several friends did the research for the cars on this list and the PCL list this same time last year, after the National Hobby and Model Show in Chicago. They are the results of that research. The manufactures are listening, but be careful what you ask for... Also there are several new projects coming at us that should make the SPF's happy, so stay tuned... Jerry I would recommend you get your scratch pad ready and take some pre-orders on the Athearn Genesis PRR F-7's. A project that my brother, two close friends and I am personally involved in. They should be better than anything available in the past, including brass... Greg Martin -------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:53:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > my Scuttlebutt column in Mainline Modeler Magazine. I have faith that the > quality will all that their AMTRAK cars have been or better. Myself and You do know at least one run of their AMTRAK cars was slightly "humpbacked" right? Hopefully these will be a smaller tool, and/or better designed so as not to have the cooling problem those did. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:02:26 -0400 Greg, Jerry and the List: In regards to the Walthers post war Budd passenger cars, were these only good for the Pennsy "Congressional"? If not, where else did the Pennsy assign these cars? Were they always stainless steel or did the Pennsy ever paint these cars Tuscan Red? Ted -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 2:30 PM To: NDBPRR@aol.com; rdg2124@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches NDPRR Writes in Reply: <> I am not sure what your level of modeling demans but these cars are far from state-of-art cars... I'll pass, thanks. <> Correct, Walthers is doing a post war Budd Serries Light weight corrugated passenger cars. Jerry and I have reported this several times both here and in my Scuttlebutt column in Mainline Modeler Magazine. I have faith that the quality will all that their AMTRAK cars have been or better. Myself and several friends did the research for the cars on this list and the PCL list this same time last year, after the National Hobby and Model Show in Chicago. They are the results of that research. The manufactures are listening, but be careful what you ask for... Also there are several new projects coming at us that should make the SPF's happy, so stay tuned... Jerry I would recommend you get your scratch pad ready and take some pre-orders on the Athearn Genesis PRR F-7's. A project that my brother, two close friends and I am personally involved in. They should be better than anything available in the past, including brass... Greg Martin -------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:43:24 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches >From what I have heard, non of the new Walthers Budd cars will be correct for the Congo, no matter what scheme Walthers paints them. The Congo had the Budd fluting pattern in which the letterboard was unfluted. The UP sleeper and the 48 seat coach shown in the prototype fotos on the Walthers list should match that pattern, but the Congo had no sleepers and the coach was very different! The diner is somewhat similar to the Senator diner, but it has a fluting pattern with a fluted letterboard. Besides which, what sort of train could you make of all diners? Well, a dinner train of course ;-) To build a proper Congo you would have to start with the sleeper and remove the pier panel (the area where the windows are). Then build a new one with the correct window punched into it. ITs on my long list of "to-do" projects starting with the Rivarossi Budd cars which are much less expensive. Where's Union Station Products when you need them? As far as the other part of your question; The PRR had Budd cars for trains other than the Congo. The prewar Southwind and the pre and postwar Florida connections had Budd built cars. None of these employed the Congo paint scheme. Several were just stainless steel with a black "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboard. All had fluted letterboards. None match the picture provided by Walthers :-(( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > Greg, Jerry and the List: > > In regards to the Walthers post war Budd passenger cars, were these only > good for the Pennsy "Congressional"? If not, where else did the Pennsy > assign these cars? Were they always stainless steel or did the Pennsy ever > paint these cars Tuscan Red? > > Ted > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:22:10 -0400 From: Robert Hornsby Subject: [PRR] True, the IHC & Rivarossi cars are beautiful for the Congressional & Senator train sets, but the window configuration is not correct. Concor sells some, but these may be the IHC & Rivarossi cars; I don't know. Regarding the prototype Budd passenger cars. To my knowledge, the Senator and Congressional were the only non-painted stainless steel Budd built cars in the east; however, the Pennsy had one other Budd built stainless train, the "South Wind". It ran between Chicago and Florida with the cooperation of a couple other railroads, the names of which I forget. I do recall seeing some Budd built stainless steel cars that were painted tuscan red, but I don't recall if they were ordered painted, or were painted at a later date. Actually, the Budd Company built ONLY stainless steel cars. They also invented the disk brake. And they made the first all steel automobile, that is, one which did not have a fabric top on a wood frame. They demonstrated the strength by standing an elephant on the roof of the auto. I have a photo of this. My dad retired from the Budd Company back in 1970. Bob Hornsby RobertHornsby@juno.com Original Message: Greg, Jerry and the List: In regards to the Walthers post war Budd passenger cars, were these only good for the Pennsy "Congressional"? If not, where else did the Pennsy assign these cars? Were they always stainless steel or did the Pennsy ever paint these cars Tuscan Red? Ted -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 2:30 PM ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:20:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: South Wind In a message dated 10/23/00 4:34:01 PM Central Daylight Time, roberthornsby@juno.com writes: << the Pennsy had one other Budd built stainless train, the "South Wind". It ran between Chicago and Florida with the cooperation of a couple other railroads, the names of which I forget. I do recall seeing some Budd built stainless steel cars that were painted tuscan red, but I don't recall if they were ordered painted, or were painted at a later date. >> The South Wind (PRR-L&N-ACL) had prewar Budd cars. Much to Budd's dismay, Pennsy ordered them in the Fleet of Modernism scheme, i.e., painted in two shades of tuscan. Sometime after the war (maybe considerably after--I'll have to do some digging) , the coaches were stripped of their tuscan and appeared in stainless with a tuscan letterboard (photos in the PRRT&HS painting and lettering guide). The diner was later painted in the postwar scheme of tuscan with buff stripes (1967 photo in the PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger equipment Vol. 2 and I have a similar photo). The observation car I think went through that paint scheme (Color Guide Vol. 1 in 1962 photo) in transition to stainless with tuscan letterboard (there is a 1963 photo in that PRR Color Guide Volume 2). I wonder about the dates in those captions. I've never seen a photo of the baggage lounge car in later years--anyone know what happened to it? BTW, L&N painted a streamlined Pacific in tuscan red for the train, at least to start. I briefly considered approaching the new owner of the K-line tooling (haven't heard about them in a few years--still around?) for a custom window arrangement for these cars, but I have never studied the fluting configurations of those cars to see if they were a match. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:47:42 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches Derrick writes: <> No I was not aware of any problems in the first production models of the Amtrak car, but with all the releases of the new Amtrak cars and the sucess I think the bugs have been worked out . The coach will not be the first car released (thank heavens) and more PRR cars will quickly follow, but I guess I should interject that this is a 5 year (or longer) project for Walthers. I don't see how they could afford to take risks. Let's think positive... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:42:58 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches Ted and all Ted Wrote: <> I sent Walthers information on Pennsy's 52, 54, and 56 seat coach information as these cars would offer the most possible combinations possible for recreating in HO Scale. Many cars duplicate cars on the SAL, RF&P, and ACL. The sections will be be the replaced to recreat each car "PER SPECIFIC TRAINS." That will be the focus here SPECIFIC TRAINS. THe first cars announced by Walthers were not specified as to which variant will be done. I will call Walthers and get more info... Perhaps when we know which coach they do first myself or Andy Miller can be more specific as to paint, ect. Greg MArtin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:48:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches PRR also assigned these cars to the Senator in the same paint scheme although there were some more variations on the interiors and possibly windows. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:13:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] The Most famous (PRR) Budd car of All Long time list members have heard me extol on this one before, but my most favorite PRR Budd car was the "Siver Rapids" assigned to the California Zephyr. Although an external to the fluted stainless Zephyr Cars, and not the slab side Red "Rapids" cars. I enjoyed seeing "PRR" on the small letterboards when I was out west and far from home in the 1960's. I also thought it very clever that, namewise, that the car fit the PRR "Rapids" series and the Zephyr type, where all cars were named "Silver" and similar cars were named after "water" features. Dick Ross Coeveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:00:24 -0700 From: Charles Friedlein Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] Roger and the list, Regarding the IHC/Rivarossi Budd cars, I can't say what the actual prototypes for any of the four cars were, even though I worked for IHC for over three years. They were tooled up before I got there and I never had the opportunity to look up that information. One thing I can say for prototype stainless steel cars, especially those made by Budd, is that many railroads left them plain stainless, with only the letterboards and nameboards painted (in some cases). Most of what I've seen in photos was a stainless car with only the lettering, often in black. The PRR's originally delivered Budd cars were painted completely in Tuscan, but the paint didn't adhere well to the stainless and flaked/chipped off very early. Therefore the Pennsy stripped them all down and only painted the letterboards and numberboards in Tuscan (some were in red), leaving the rest of the car bare metal. Back to the models for a minute. The Rivarossi HO passenger cars, regardless of body style, have only been imported by AHM/IHC and now Model Expo. BTW, Model Expo does not import the Budd cars from Rivarossi--tooling ownership situation in play here. Therefore, whatever is on the market now is all that has come into the country with none coming in for a few years, and we probably won't see any more of them for a long time to come. For anyone who doesn't know, AHM was owned by the same person who now owns IHC--long story, not worth getting into here. The Budd cars weren't tooled until IHC days. I don't know who makes the HO cars for Con-Cor, but they're not from Rivarossi. Look on the box and my guess is you'll find they're made somewhere other than Italy where Rivarossi is located. The only HO Rivarossi models that I'm aware Con-Cor has imported were some E-8s, many of the 4-6-4 Hudson steamers, and perhaps a few of the other steamers. As to the IHC/Rivarossi Budd car models' appearance in Congo/Senator Paint--yes, they do really look good as long as you can forgive the incorrect windows. Be aware that there are two versions of the cars available as imported by IHC. The originally released cars have the keystone with a tuscan field. The newer ones have the more common keystone with the (closest they could get to) Toluidine Red field. Chuck Friedlein Robert Hornsby wrote: > True, the IHC & Rivarossi cars are beautiful for the Congressional & > Senator train sets, but the window configuration is not correct. Concor > sells some, but these may be the IHC & Rivarossi cars; I don't know. > > Regarding the prototype Budd passenger cars. To my knowledge, the > Senator and Congressional were the only non-painted stainless steel Budd > built cars in the east; however, the Pennsy had one other Budd built > stainless train, the "South Wind". It ran between Chicago and Florida > with the cooperation of a couple other railroads, the names of which I > forget. I do recall seeing some Budd built stainless steel cars that > were painted tuscan red, but I don't recall if they were ordered painted, > or were painted at a later date. Actually, the Budd Company built ONLY > stainless steel cars. They also invented the disk brake. And they made > the first all steel automobile, that is, one which did not have a fabric > top on a wood frame. They demonstrated the strength by standing an > elephant on the roof of the auto. I have a photo of this. My dad > retired from the Budd Company back in 1970. > > Bob Hornsby > RobertHornsby@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Northern Scale Parts? List, Anyone ever purchase any of the HO Scale Number Plates from Northern Scale Models? I found their website a few days ago and seen they list dozens of sets of 10 plates. They have either PRR Round or Keystones. Even the 5 Streamlined K4s Plates. Prices are $10.00 per set of 10. Do they compare well in size and dimensions? Are they better than Schuykill Division Plates?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:06:06 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches Andy writes and I will reply in context: <> This may be true I am not a Stainless steel passenger fan, but it may be wrong as well. The diagrams came couresty of Rob's website, there in lies the answer, let's not jump to conclusions. <> There will be several different fluting/corrugation patterns specific to the "PER SPECIFIC TRAIN." The window patterns are separate mold inserts. The development of these cars was the result of extensive research and the collaberation of several non-nah-sayers working closely with Walthers and included several meeting and a computer generated spread sheet and meetings provided by ED DeRouin. (Ed you out there?) Ed took the message of what we (as modelers)would like to see as a result of the reseach, we have to thank Ed for the final discovery for Walthers, I was just helping compile the info and provided the initial vehicle to open the dialog. The way in which Walthers addresses the cars is up to Walthers and I guarentee they will not be "like Brass" at 32 and 39 dollars. <> These will be a separate mold insert, once again. <> Once again as the project grows we will see different TRAINS, not all PRR. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:31:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] thanks list Listers - When Bruce Smith was one of the first to place an advance order for our Wilmington Station I had a little apprehension. As you all know Bruce is not only an excellent modeler but an avid researcher and historian. I had never talked to Bruce prior to him placing his order and have found him to be a very personable young man and any praise from him we feel is coming from an expert and we wish to thank him very much. The masters for the next building (the clock tower portion) are well under way and our target date is January. Not a promise but we're trying. We have some requests for a second run. I know some of you haven't received your kit yet but we are continuing to fill those orders and you should be receiving them soon. If you haven't got a kit and are now interested you can contact Jerry or us and we'll keep a count and let you know if we get enough to warrant a second run as this is a monumental project. 90F82 tender - the tender is complete. However we want to use a special material due to it's scale thickness in some areas. Another problem has been HO scale rivets! very closely spaced! We have solved this problem and will be manufacturing as soon as the resin comes in. We are only making 50 on the first run, and while our molds will certainly do more than that, we schedule our runs of 50 at a time to give our suppliers adequate time to produce the add on parts. The minute Bruce mentioned this orders started flowing in. We have 31 left. The price with all the goodies (this includes Bowser trucks, one kadee coupler, plus much, much more). is $59.95. This is a real deal. If you want to know what else this includes contact us off line. They're going fast and if we sell all of them we will not advertise this run to the general public. Thanks again to all of you who have been so helpful in answering my dumb questions. Without your help many of the things we do would not be possible. Dayna & the Gang at Trainstuff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Odd F7 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:40:36 -0500 Hi guys--Can anyone provide any information with regard to this picture of 9879 with its "custom" fuel tank? http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/prr/prr9879s.jpg Compare the fuel tank to the one on the A unit coupled on behind--a much larger tank. Thanks! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 14:35:44 +0000 From: Roger Hensley Subject: [PRR] "Van" Tower Ft. Wayne I have a request from a gentleman who is interested in pictures of old Pennsy interlocking towers in the Fort Wayne area. One in particular that he remembers was "Van" tower. He's looking for web sites or other sources where he might find the pictures he's interested in. What say someone? Roger Roger Hensley rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ == == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] Odd F7 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:13:57 -0700 Steve, Although our friend (and meticulous researcher)Jack Consoli is working up a nice treatise on PRR F-units right now (I think for the Keystone), and I hate to pretend to have the definitive answer, I think the answer is that the last series of PRR F-7's were equipped from the factory with the large tank, and hence, never had skirting like all the earlier orders. It is only obvious when you look hard, like you did. This is why no one ever seems to model the last series! They also had the vertical side vents, round rear window, round side door and window corners, vertical Farr Air grilles, and no overhang, which makes them distinct in a lash-up. This guy also appears to have two different sand fills, too! Ah, I love PRR F-units! elden -----Original Message----- From: Steve Hoxie [mailto:steveh@dotstar.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 11:41 AM To: PRR-talk Cc: Jim Six Subject: [PRR] Odd F7 Hi guys--Can anyone provide any information with regard to this picture of 9879 with its "custom" fuel tank? http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/prr/prr9879s.jpg Compare the fuel tank to the one on the A unit coupled on behind--a much larger tank. Thanks! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen A. D'Addio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:(PRR)New Book Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:32:20 -0400 I'm confused!!! The two red engines that you say have single stripes do not fall into number range of another lister's post who stated that there were 10 GG-1's painted red! Does this mean that there were 12 GG-1's painted red??? Steve D'Addio saddio@snet.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "David ott" To: Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 11:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Re:(PRR)New Book > There were 2 Red with single stripes, 4907 and 4916. > > David > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:06:07 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] Re: Steel Ties/Axle Counters We is getting off topic. 8)>> I have accumulated a bunch of mails, etc, re axle counters. Anyone wanting them, off list, ask. Ob PRR: No One (and this includes PRR specific folks) has heard of PRR using them. (With the clarification that i was referring to _vital_ axle counters, as used in lieu of track circuits...) best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:20:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] Odd F-7 Steve, This is the freight-passenger version of the F-7 known as the FP-7. The fuel tank was shortened to allow for a water tank. The unit was equipped with a steam generator to supply steam to heat the cars. This unit is six feet longer than the F-7 to allow for the steam generator installed at the very back of the car body. There was also the dynamic brake option for the FP-7 but believe the Pennsy did not have any units with it. Evan RCT&HS 346 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:41:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Signal Bridges Hello List Can anyone out there tell me of a source(s) of line drawings for PRR Signal Bridges. Thank You, Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 Friends of the RR Museum ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Odd F-7 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:39:48 -0500 Evan--9879 is in fact an F-7, not an FP-7. PRR FP-7's were in number series 9832 to 9871. If you take a look at http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/prr/prr9837s.jpg you can clearly see the cylindrical tank immediately behind the front truck. That is the water tank. Also the extra length is between the front porthole and the forward most side vent. PRR FP-7's were equipped with dynamic brakes using a 36 inch fan, not the 48 inch fan as on the current E-R Imports HO model. F-7 9879 with that big tank really is an oddball. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:04:51 -0400 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Signal Bridges Plans can be found in the soft cover book entitled "57 MofW Plans for the Pennsylvania Railroad" published by Boynton & Associates in 1967. Other sources may also exist. Frank Brua JONS6755@aol.com wrote: > Hello List > Can anyone out there tell me of a source(s) of line drawings for PRR > Signal Bridges. > Thank You, > Jon S. > PRRT&HS #3079 > Friends of the RR Museum > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:29:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Signal Bridges List Thank you all for the help so far on the PRR signal bridge line drawings. Any one else out there with any more ideas please let me know. Does any one know of a source for this PRR MOW Plans book ? Thank You Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:50:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] MP54's Where was the maintenance base for the MP54's. I don't recall these being worked on at Wilmington. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] "Van" Tower Ft. Wayne Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:33:22 -0400 Roger: Van Tower was located on the Panhandle in Logansport, Indiana. It was not on the Ft. Wayne line but it was an all Pennsy interlocking meaning that all intersecting rail lines were owned and operated by the PRR. There were branch lines going to South Bend, Auburn, Effner, Indianapolis. The Panhandle mainline went to Chicago, and Columbus. I know of one "Keystone" article on the Logansport Division. It was published in either 1981 or '82 (I don't have the copy in front of me). It does have a good photo of Van tower and its interlocking circa 1972. Also, in a "Rails Northeast" article, there is a map of the Logansport are from the PRR (circa 1928). I am sorry that I do not have the specific article information in front of me but let me know, I can easily dig it up for you. Personally, I do have several photos of Van that I took in 1985 shortly before the tower was raised, or as Conrail put it, "rationalized". :P I hope that this helps! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana (I am modeling the Van interlocking on my layout......small world!) -----Original Message----- From: Roger Hensley [mailto:rhensley@anderson.cioe.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:36 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] "Van" Tower Ft. Wayne I have a request from a gentleman who is interested in pictures of old Pennsy interlocking towers in the Fort Wayne area. One in particular that he remembers was "Van" tower. He's looking for web sites or other sources where he might find the pictures he's interested in. What say someone? Roger Roger Hensley rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ == == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:48:42 -0400 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's --On 10/25/2000 08:50:36 AM +0000 NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > Where was the maintenance base for the MP54's. I don't recall these being > worked on at Wilmington. Some if not all were presumably maintained at Paoli. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:58:59 -0400 From: Bob Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's repairs The control boxes for the MP54's were rebuilt in the Electric Shop at Wilmington when I worked in the Metroliner Shop @ Wilm in the early 70's. In spite of being heavily built, the boxes would occasionally evaporate the guts. It was time consuming, but the troops in the Electric Shop would rebuild every component, relays & line switches, & rewire them to perfection - better than new! The ES was across the transfer table at Wilm on the east end of the bldg. Only once in a while would a MP54 be brought in for repairs - it had to be in real bad shape! The carpenter shop, I believe, used to occupy the rest of the bldg that ES was in & was basically shutdown. Further south was the Foundry & Wheel Shop where new whatevers were forged and new wheels were bored for axles. At the other end of this row of buildings was Heavy Loco where the venerable GG-1 was repaired/rebuilt. The traction motors were rebuilt by either the Westinghouse repair shop underneath the roadway north of 30th St or by the GE repair shop. I believe most repairs were done at Paoli. --Bob Colquitt NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > Where was the maintenance base for the MP54's. I don't recall these being > worked on at Wilmington. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Deimling" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Signal Bridges Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:08:51 -0700 The eBay auction site is a where you see them from time to time. They are expensive. Keep on the lookout, you may see an original book rather than the reprint. Gene Deimling -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of JONS6755@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 5:29 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Signal Bridges List Thank you all for the help so far on the PRR signal bridge line drawings. Any one else out there with any more ideas please let me know. Does any one know of a source for this PRR MOW Plans book ? Thank You Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:12:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] MP54's Was Paoli also responsible for the silverliners after the MP54's? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:20:50 -0400 I believe the Paoli yards was the storage, maintenance and disbursement area for the MP-54. I used to go there many years ago to photograph the cars and trailers. On Sundays, there were always a bunch of 'em! Lew -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 8:55 AM Subject: [PRR] MP54's >Where was the maintenance base for the MP54's. I don't recall these being >worked on at Wilmington. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:35:11 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: [PRR] X23 While returning from the Sunshine RPM meet in Naperville this past weekend, I stopped at Coshocktin, Ohio to try and find the Ohio Central RR shop complex (failed). On route 36, there was a tourist trap called The Unusual Station which had in addition to some passenger cars, what appeared to be a former PRR X23. Does anyone know if in fact this is an X23 and the one for which there was a preservation attempt during the past year? One of the passenger cars was labeled "Defender" which I believe is former PRR but was not in PRR colors. Some of the cars appear to be somewhat butchered. Thanks. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] "Van" Tower Ft. Wayne Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:44:11 -0400 Roger: After re-reading your question, I would like to re-answer it, if you do not mind. :) There were 3 PRR towers in the Ft. Wayne area. The easternmost tower was "Adams" and protected the GR&I branch line going down to Richmond, Indiana. The second tower located in the center of the city was "Mike" tower and protected the Ft. Wayne mainline with the Wabash's Detroit to Kansas City mainline. Last, the third tower was "Junction" tower located on the west side of Ft. Wayne. It protected the GR&I line north to Michigan as well as the NKP branch line going south to Muncie, Indiana. The only tower on the Ft. Wayne line that had the word "Van" in it was "Van Hale". This tower was located about 15-20 miles west of Ft. Wayne in Columbia City and protected the Pennsy's Logansport to Auburn branchline with the Ft. Wayne mainline. Perhaps your friend was referring to this tower? Ted -----Original Message----- From: Roger Hensley [mailto:rhensley@anderson.cioe.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:36 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] "Van" Tower Ft. Wayne I have a request from a gentleman who is interested in pictures of old Pennsy interlocking towers in the Fort Wayne area. One in particular that he remembers was "Van" tower. He's looking for web sites or other sources where he might find the pictures he's interested in. What say someone? Roger Roger Hensley rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ == == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:54:45 -0400 SEPTA and Conrail got into big trouble with the EPA over the Paoli maintenance site. It seems PCB's spilled out of the MP54's transformers over the years they were maintained there, making one of the worst polychlorinated biphenol sites in the US. Don't recall the outcome, but there was a lot of finger pointing, as the company, the cars, and the people responsible weren't around anymore. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "lew matt" To: Cc: "PRR talk" Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's > I believe the Paoli yards was the storage, maintenance and disbursement area > for the MP-54. I used to go there many years ago to photograph the cars and > trailers. On Sundays, there were always a bunch of 'em! > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: NDBPRR@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 8:55 AM > Subject: [PRR] MP54's > > > >Where was the maintenance base for the MP54's. I don't recall these being > >worked on at Wilmington. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:51:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's Like Paoli, the yard at South Amboy (used by MP54s and GG1s which were used from New York to end of wires there) seems to have become a polluted cleanup site; the tracks were fenced off for years with environmental warnings. On my last trip through some months ago, it looked as if cleanup had finally begun. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "gregory" Subject: [PRR] X-23 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:23:23 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C03E65.38F3E1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The X-23 that we tried to have moved to the museum in strausburg was at = the Enola yards. Technically it is a MOW car with doors at the ends and = windows on the sides, I am not sure what subclass that makes it. Was the = car you saw unmodified? --Greg ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C03E65.38F3E1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The X-23 that we tried to have moved to = the museum=20 in strausburg was at the Enola yards. Technically it is a MOW car with = doors at=20 the ends and windows on the sides, I am not sure what subclass that = makes it.=20 Was the car you saw unmodified?

--Greg
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C03E65.38F3E1A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:05:52 +0000 From: Roger Hensley Subject: RE: [PRR] "Van" Tower Ft. Wayne > From: "Andrews, Ted" > To: "'rhensley@anderson.cioe.com'" , > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] "Van" Tower Ft. Wayne > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:44:11 -0400 > The only tower on the Ft. Wayne line that had the word "Van" in it was "Van > Hale". This tower was located about 15-20 miles west of Ft. Wayne in > Columbia City and protected the Pennsy's Logansport to Auburn branchline > with the Ft. Wayne mainline. Perhaps your friend was referring to this > tower? > > Ted I think that this is partly what he is looking for. Now, are there pictures available of any of them. We're dealing with a memory from years back. Van could easily be Van Hale. In any event, I'm sending this on to him as well as your other post. Thanks. Roger Roger Hensley rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ == == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54's Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:24:28 -0700 The outcome? The Paoli yard is now gone. The rails are gone, the wire is down. I believe the contaminated dirt has been taken away. The buildings are likely to be torn down. I would look for the land to be redeveloped. Last I saw, the track still remained for the duck under, though it was heavily rusted. Interestly, I had always been led to believe the duckunder was a loop. Not so - it was a switchback. So if it wasn't a loop, how did they turn the steam engines before the MP54? John > ---------- > From: Gregg Mahlkov[SMTP:mahlkov@gtcom.net] > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 7:54 AM > To: lew matt; NDBPRR@aol.com > Cc: PRR talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's > > SEPTA and Conrail got into big trouble with the EPA over the Paoli > maintenance site. It seems PCB's spilled out of the MP54's transformers > over > the years they were maintained there, making one of the worst > polychlorinated biphenol sites in the US. > Don't recall the outcome, but there was a lot of finger pointing, as the > company, the cars, and the people responsible weren't around anymore. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 13:35:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-23 The Northern Ohio Railway (Traction) Museum in Chipewa Lake Ohio owns an unrestored X-23 in MOW yellow (what's left of the paint, that is) They plan to cosmetically restore the exterior of the car and use it for storage Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:42:44 -0400 You have got to remember that the electification to Pasoli was the first High Voltage AC PRR electrification, done around 1910. This was also the era that the main lines were greatly improved with "flying junctions" and "duckunders" all over the greater Philadelphia area, so it is likely that the track arrangement at Paoli was totally different prior to electic operation. If I am not mistaken, PRR had some 19th century suburban tank engines which would have disappeared immediately when the wires went up 90 years ago. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Cooper" To: "lew matt" ; ; "'Gregg Mahlkov'" Cc: "PRR talk" Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 1:24 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54's > The outcome? > > The Paoli yard is now gone. The rails are gone, the wire is down. I > believe the contaminated dirt has been taken away. The buildings are likely > to be torn down. I would look for the land to be redeveloped. Last I saw, > the track still remained for the duck under, though it was heavily rusted. > > Interestly, I had always been led to believe the duckunder was a loop. Not > so - it was a switchback. So if it wasn't a loop, how did they turn the > steam engines before the MP54? > > John > > > ---------- > > From: Gregg Mahlkov[SMTP:mahlkov@gtcom.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 7:54 AM > > To: lew matt; NDBPRR@aol.com > > Cc: PRR talk > > Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's > > > > SEPTA and Conrail got into big trouble with the EPA over the Paoli > > maintenance site. It seems PCB's spilled out of the MP54's transformers > > over > > the years they were maintained there, making one of the worst > > polychlorinated biphenol sites in the US. > > Don't recall the outcome, but there was a lot of finger pointing, as the > > company, the cars, and the people responsible weren't around anymore. > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:37:25 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Buff vs. Dulux Gene and All, Let me see if I can shed some light on this as I just finished the paint and lettering diagrams for the upcoming Athearn/Genesis F units. What I have found is that, like you, the Champ Decals are a very close match for BUFF PRR Shade and way back when the MICROSCALE were too, of course. The color chip you have will be different from a photo in a book, a post card or even a slide. Color separators at printers (for magazine, ect.) need to be closely monitoed by those with the original reproduction in hand to get the colors correct. But if the color of your slide has shifted (usually fading and leaving more blue or magenta behind)then the orginal may be distorted, too bad it wouldn't just turn grayer or lighter, oh well. Dulux gold for us SPF's shouldn't enter our vocabulary until the repaints of the early 60's and the arrival of the second generation diesels. Don't let your eyes fool you into believing that BUFF PRR Shade was a brighter richer color, it wasn't. Hope this helps... Greg Martin In a message "Gene Deimling" writes: << I have asked a question or two before about decal colors for PRR lettering buff. I have the PRRH&TS color chip and it compares closely to the color used by Champ on their F-unit decals. I look at photos in various books and my eyes are seeing a slightly brighter and richer color. It appears to me that the buff has more yellow in it. Did the diesel painters use a different shade of buff? Thanks, Gene Deimling PRRH&TS # 6418>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:50:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Buff vs. Dulux From: Jerry Britton On 10/25/00 3:37 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > Dulux gold for us SPF's shouldn't enter our vocabulary until the repaints of > the early 60's and the arrival of the second generation diesels. > > Don't let your eyes fool you into believing that BUFF PRR Shade was a > brighter richer color, it wasn't. > Greg, I always thought "Buff" and "Dulux Gold" were the same, not unlike "DGLE" and "Brunswick Green" being used interchangeably. I thought the move was from "Bronze Gold" to "Dulux Gold" circa late 40's. I know that's how Champ labels (or used to label) their decals. However, there is a wide variance among model manufacturers. Many get the later gold/buff appearing way too yellow. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] PRR GP30 wanted Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:12:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C03E9E.590C3120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi y'all, Pennsy buffs, . . . do any of you have a Proto 2000 PRR GP30 that they = would be willing to trade or sell? Also, how about a Kato GP35 body = either undec or PRR that they would part with? Jim Six Madison Village, Ohio Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D205020 More than 1100 pictures and growing . . .=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C03E9E.590C3120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi y'all,

Pennsy buffs, . . . do any of you have a = Proto 2000 PRR=20 GP30 that they would be willing to trade or sell? Also, how about = a Kato=20 GP35 body either undec or PRR that they would part with?

Jim=20 Six
Madison Village, Ohio

Visit my GROWING = model=20 railroad website at:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D205020
More than 1100 pictures and growing = . . .=20

------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C03E9E.590C3120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Witcofsky" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:02:58 -0400 In reply to an inquiry: ".......Where was the maintenance base for the MP54's. I don't recall these being worked on at Wilmington...." Derrick J. Brashear replied: "......Some if not all were presumably maintained at Paoli........" Gentlemen: Cars operating on the New York Division were maintained at Sunnyside. Cars operating on lines radiating out of Philadelphia were maintained at Paoli. Cars operating out of Baltimore & Washington were maintained at Orangeville. Most Heavy Repairs were performed at Paoli. Some project work was performed at Wilmington , and Altoona. Light maintenance and cleaning was also performed at outlying layover points such as South Amboy, County, Trenton, Powellton Ave (Phila), Media, Paoli, West Yard (Wilmington), Baltimore, Ivy City (D.C.) and Chestnut Hill.. Joe Witcofsky ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Witcofsky" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:11:08 -0400 NDBPRR asks: "......Was Paoli also responsible for the silverliners after the MP54's?....." Yes, and that includes all Phila area assigned MUs, the Pioneers, the PSIC Silverliners, the GSI cars (opposite side control stands and Harrisburg Service Cars), and the GE Silverliner IV cars delivered in the mid seventies. However, the Jersey Arrow cars were maintained exclusively at Sunnyside until the onset of NJT. This included Arrows leased to MD DOT which replaced MP54s in BW service. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:41:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Buff vs. Dulux Jerry, list, I don't have my reference books to back me up, but the switch to Dulux gold on PRR engines and passenger cars came in 1952. This was the same year PRR switched to Tuscan red on it's passenger diesels. I have found on my models that the Dulux gold stripes show up much better than the bronze gold; I letter my engines and cars with the Champ Dulux gold sets even though my era is closer to 1948, trading accuracy for legibility. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:16:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's In a message dated 10/25/00 2:47:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << You have got to remember that the electification to Pasoli was the first High Voltage AC PRR electrification, done around 1910. This was also the era that the main lines were greatly improved with "flying junctions" and "duckunders" all over the greater Philadelphia area, so it is likely that the track arrangement at Paoli was totally different prior to electic operation. If I am not mistaken, PRR had some 19th century suburban tank engines which would have disappeared immediately when the wires went up 90 years ago. >> The commuter trains before the 1915 electrification were handled by class D 4-4-0 locomotives. I've seen some shots with some older class E 's also being used. There were water facilities in the middle of the wye at Paoli but I've never seen any coaling facilities. There was a sanding facility and a stub track at the east end of Paoli interlocking when the O-1/P-5 motors started handling pass traffic east of Paoli. Light engine moves of K-4's from the 46th st enginehouse to and from Paoli were the norm. --------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:12:58 -0400 There's a car that sure looks like an X23 at the New York Central Museum in Elkhart, In. The only identifying marks is the car # painted on the side. Sure looks like an X23 to me and it's on PRR trucks. Is my id correct? I put a shot of it on my web site at: http://prr.railfan.net/photos/PRR_499656_X23_side_RS_Elkhart_IN.JPG There is also the underframe of another scrapped car identical to this in the weeds outside the museum fence... I'm not sure why a NYC museum would have an X23 but they also have a GG1 so go figure! Thanks! Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Pfeiffer To: Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:35 AM Subject: [PRR] X23 > While returning from the Sunshine RPM meet in Naperville this past > weekend, I stopped at Coshocktin, Ohio to try and find the Ohio Central RR > shop complex (failed). On route 36, there was a tourist trap called The > Unusual Station which had in addition to some passenger cars, what appeared > to be a former PRR X23. Does anyone know if in fact this is an X23 and > the one for which there was a preservation attempt during the past year? > One of the passenger cars was labeled "Defender" which I believe is former > PRR but was not in PRR colors. Some of the cars appear to be somewhat > butchered. > > Thanks. > > Dave Pfeiffer > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:24:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Buff vs. Dulux Doug and all, The Pennsy DID NOT switch to DULUX GOLD In 1952, they changed to BUFF. I have seen the term "Imitation Gold," which replaced Pennsy's Gold Leaf in 1952. I can't find and reference to the use of Dulux Gold until the repaints of the sixties. In a message dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: << Don't have my reference books to back me up, but the switch to Dulux gold on PRR engines and passenger cars came in 1952. This was the same year PRR switched to Tuscan red on it's passenger diesels. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:44:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Buff vs. Dulux Jerry, I have never been able to make the Dulux Gold and Buff connection during the same time period ... unlike Brunswick Green and DGL-P-E PRR shade. jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Greg, I always thought "Buff" and "Dulux Gold" were the same, not unlike "DGLE" and "Brunswick Green" being used interchangeably.>> No records of that just slang from modelers... <> Actually, Bronze Gold (gold leaf) was displaced by Imitation Gold/Buff in 1952, but what throws this date in the crapper is a Pullman reference to their cars (the Brook Series Cars) being painted Imitation Gold in 1942 or perhaps before. There needs to be more research on the passenger cars for sure. Someone have the PRR Passenger car color guide book handy? <> Yes, you are right they do but that only serves to confuse. <> How true you are! That is why in hopes of getting it right on one exceptional model our small group studied and agreed on the chips and recommendations we did for the Athearn Genesis units. we shall approach Intermountain in the future before their F-3 phase 2 hits the market in the spring... oooppppssss... did I let the cat out of the bag, oh no... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sam cali" Subject: [PRR] pnumatic interlockings Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 06:58:24 GMT At the Pennsy's electro-pnumatic interlockings, where were the air compressors located? In sepperate sheds or buildings? This may sound silly, but were they ever located IN the towers. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:59:40 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] X-23 Greg, There was a small door cut in the one end I could see. The other end was in a tight spot. The sides of the car were unmodified. However, there was some hardware missing like ladders, brake wheel, and the roof walk. The car was definitely restorable. Based on the comments I have seen here, X23's aren't as rare as I had thought. Dave At 09:23 AM 10/25/00 -0700, gregory wrote: >>>> The X-23 that we tried to have moved to the museum in strausburg was at the Enola yards. Technically it is a MOW car with doors at the ends and windows on the sides, I am not sure what subclass that makes it. Was the car you saw unmodified?Arial7474,6969,6f6f --Greg Arial7474,6969,6f6f ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] Mileposts Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:12:34 -0400 Fellow Pennsy Nuts: I bought some mileposts from the Funaro & Camerlengo display at a train show in Timonium, MD and was wondering if they were correct for the PRR. They are white/vertical/diamond shaped w/pyramid top and black #'s on the two facing sides. A fellow Pennsy modeler told me that they would probably work as the PRR acquired a lot of railroads over the years and did not change the mileposts that were already in place. I'm modeling the year 1957. Any thoughts/comments/answers on this one? Also, there are a couple of nice old Pennsy signal bridges in Mingo Jct..,OH on the (now) NS mainline on the town-side of the north end of the 80" hot strip mill and on the same mainline adjacent to the old 44" blooming mill. I think they were both over double track main at one time. Not sure, but there may be some further to the north of this location in the area of the old Yellow Creek tower near Hammondsville, OH (about 20 miles to the north along OH State Route 7). This is now single track stuff there I believe. This list is great. Really enjoying all the information. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] More on the PRR F7 with large tank Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:32:07 -0500 For the SPF's and F fans in general: On 10/24 Jim Six brought to our attention the photo of PRR F7 9879 at http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/prr/prr9879s.jpg There has been a little speculation about why this F7 was different from all the others we have seen, but real definitive answers have been lacking. All F units are alike, right? Not hardly. In Yanosey's Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol. 1, on page 95 in the bottom photo 9872 is shown while it was the trailing unit on an eastbound train on Horseshoe Curve. The photo was taken at a medium distance but the large fuel tank with the cutout skirt is clearly seen. The B unit ahead of 9872 may also have the large tank, but that is not at all certain due to the angle and size of the photo. The caption indicates the photo was taken in 1952; we all know that captions are frequently not the best sources of info, but nothing else in the photo leads me to believe the date is in error. Now that is two. 9872 and 9879 were the lead and last units of the Pennsy's last F7 delivery in 1952. The question: did this whole group come new from EMD with these tanks? Were there really eight of these on the railroad? All these years and no one has noticed this before. Thanks, Jim. Greg Martin, you have been very conspicuous by your silence on this. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Mileposts Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:38:18 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Day To: Doug Day Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 12:16 PM Subject: Re: Mileposts > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Doug Day > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 11:12 AM > Subject: Mileposts > > > > Fellow Pennsy Nuts: > > > > I bought some mileposts from the Funaro & Camerlengo display at a train > show > > in Timonium, MD and was wondering if they were correct for the PRR. They > > are white/vertical/diamond shaped w/pyramid top and black #'s on the two > > facing sides. > > > > A fellow Pennsy modeler told me that they would probably work as the PRR > > acquired a lot of railroads over the years and did not change the > mileposts > > that were already in place. I'm modeling the year 1957. Any > > thoughts/comments/answers on this one? > > > > Also, there are a couple of nice old Pennsy signal bridges in Mingo > Jct..,OH > > on the (now) NS mainline on the town-side of the north end of the 80" hot > > strip mill and on the same mainline adjacent to the old 44" blooming mill. > > I think they were both over double track main at one time. Not sure, but > > there may be some further to the north of this location in the area of the > > old Yellow Creek tower near Hammondsville, OH (about 20 miles to the north > > along OH State Route 7). This is now single track stuff there I believe. > > > > This list is great. Really enjoying all the information. > > > > Doug > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] Bachmann (Spectrum) Passenger Cars Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:48:15 -0500 Hi List, Don't know if this has been covered before, sorry if it has. I model the Elmira Branch in 1948-50 and not up to speed on passenger equipment. How accurate are the Bachmann Spectrum PRR passenger cars. OK for stand ins? This sounds like a really stupid question but which paint would be correct pre or post war. BTW, when did the paint change on the passenger cars? Thanks Pete Reinhold PRRT&HS #5518 Universal Die & Stampings preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:50:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Ore cars Which ore car is right for PRR in HO? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54's Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:29:33 -0700 Ken McCorry sent me this privately. I'm posting with permission as it is relevant to the discussion: John there was a wye and the tail track went accross Central Ave. What might happen is that the new Paoli Transportation center will be built on the site of the old yard and mu shops. Septa is currently trying to buy the body shop of Matthews Ford accross the tracks for the location of the new eastbound platforms. - Ken McCorry By the way the track is gone from the duck they are putting all the contaminated dirt in the duck under cut and sealing it. The shops are due to be torn down before the end of the year from what I've heard. ------------ Ken McCorry > ---------- > From: KEMACPRR@aol.com[SMTP:KEMACPRR@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 9:16 PM > To: mahlkov@gtcom.net > Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54's > > In a message dated 10/25/00 2:47:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > > << You have got to remember that the electification to Pasoli was the > first > High Voltage AC PRR electrification, done around 1910. This was also the > era that the main lines were greatly improved with "flying junctions" and > "duckunders" all over the greater Philadelphia area, so it is likely that > the track arrangement at Paoli was totally different prior to electic > operation. If I am not mistaken, PRR had some 19th century suburban tank > engines which would have disappeared immediately when the wires went up > 90 > years ago. > >> > The commuter trains before the 1915 electrification were handled by class > D > 4-4-0 locomotives. I've seen some shots with some older class E 's also > being > used. There were water facilities in the middle of the wye at Paoli but > I've > never seen any coaling facilities. There was a sanding facility and a stub > > track at the east end of Paoli interlocking when the O-1/P-5 motors > started > handling pass traffic east of Paoli. Light engine moves of K-4's from the > 46th st enginehouse to and from Paoli were the norm. --------------------- > > Ken McCorry > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] More on the PRR F7 with large tank Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:21:35 -0400 Greg is too busy for us anymore! Jim Six Madison Village, Ohio Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=205020 Over 60,000 visitors and more than 1100 pictures and growing . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hoxie" To: ; "PRR-talk" Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:32 PM Subject: [PM-list] More on the PRR F7 with large tank > For the SPF's and F fans in general: > > On 10/24 Jim Six brought to our attention the photo of PRR F7 9879 at > http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/prr/prr9879s.jpg > > There has been a little speculation about why this F7 was different from all > the others we have seen, but real definitive answers have been lacking. All > F units are alike, right? Not hardly. > > In Yanosey's Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol. 1, on page 95 in the bottom photo > 9872 is shown while it was the trailing unit on an eastbound train on > Horseshoe Curve. The photo was taken at a medium distance but the large > fuel tank with the cutout skirt is clearly seen. The B unit ahead of 9872 > may also have the large tank, but that is not at all certain due to the > angle and size of the photo. The caption indicates the photo was taken in > 1952; we all know that captions are frequently not the best sources of > info, but nothing else in the photo leads me to believe the date is in > error. > > Now that is two. 9872 and 9879 were the lead and last units of the Pennsy's > last F7 delivery in 1952. The question: did this whole group come new from > EMD with these tanks? Were there really eight of these on the railroad? > > All these years and no one has noticed this before. Thanks, Jim. > > Greg Martin, you have been very conspicuous by your silence on this. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > > > > Community email addresses: > Post message: PROTOTYPEmodeler@egroups.com > Subscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-subscribe@egroups.com > Unsubscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-unsubscribe@egroups.com > List owner: PROTOTYPEmodeler-owner@egroups.com > View pictures of list members at: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=205020&a=6787243 > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/PROTOTYPEmodeler > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:03:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Flats vs. PRR FM's From: Jerry Britton Red Caboose recently came out with a four-pack of PRR MoW cars, which included two flat cars (in addition to two X-29's). We know the RC X-29's are very true to prototype. What can be said of the flat cars? Red Caboose calls them a "42'10" Fish Belly Side Sill Flat Car". The MoW versions are labeled as class FM. I know a lot of FM cars went into MoW. Are these models close? Or world's away? Whose our resident flat car expert? Photo of model: http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_new.html --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:34:53 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] More on the PRR F7 with large tank Steve, Jim and All, Steve comments: <> I have been watching and I plan to do the spread sheet starting this weekend. But from the photos I have reviewed so far it appears that the entire order had the larger tanks, but let me look at the EMD order # and go from there. Greg MArtin Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:45:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] More on the PRR F7 with large tank From: Jerry Britton On 10/26/00 3:34 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > I have been watching and I plan to do the spread sheet starting this weekend. > But from the photos I have reviewed so far it appears that the entire order > had the larger tanks, but let me look at the EMD order # and go from there. > Okay, so where is that Withers book Volume xxxx that has a photo for every unit in the F7 fleet! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [PRR] Re: "dog leg " bridge in Renovo,Pa Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:07:45 -0400 Hi Bonnie I have a newspaper picture of that bridge. I am still trying to find the paper that it came from. Not sure if it was the Express or the Record. When I find out I can let you know and we should be able to get re-prints. Do you live in Renovo? What other pictures do you have? I know that Greg will be interested. Keep in touch Wayne 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bonnie Hess" To: <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 2:23 PM Subject: "dog leg " bridge in Renovo,Pa > I can't fined a photo of that bridge, It was a traffic hazard bridge but > there was never > no accidents on it, location at west end of Renovo,Pa. ,my dad worked > for the > railroad for 22 years, I just wanted to put a book togather for him, of > old pictures of > renovo, I have alot of pictures and the history of renovo. > bonbon13@uplink.net > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Ore cars Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:07:27 -0400 Many years ago MDC (Model Die Casting/Roundhouse) made reasonably close Pennsy ore-jennys. I forget the correct class designations (G39???), but there was a low side and a high side version of approximately the same length. These were "G" class cars w/ solid bottoms and were new to the railroad after steam was retired. The '98' Walthers catalog still had them listed for sale, somewhere around 8 or 9 bucks. I have also see photos of ore trains on the main line in West Philly (Paoli area?) with what looked like DM&IR ore cars being pulled by electrics. Hate being so vague here but I don't have any reference material here at work. Maybe someone else out there can be more specific. Good Luck Buzz -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com [mailto:NDBPRR@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:50 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Ore cars Which ore car is right for PRR in HO? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:16:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars The only really correct car is the resin kit that was made by A&W and now by Funnero and Camerlingo sp? . Most modelers that want to model an ore train including me have used the MDC 26' low side ore jenny that they produce. It's a SP prototype but will do a credible stand in job for a G-38. Decals are available from Middle Division for the PRR jennies. ------------ Ken McCorry -------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:32:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars In a message dated 10/26/00 4:19:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com writes: << I have also see photos of ore trains on the main line in West Philly (Paoli area?) with what looked like DM&IR ore cars being pulled by electrics. Hate being so vague here but I don't have any reference material here at work. Maybe someone else out there can be more specific. Good Luck Buzz >> The DM&IR cars were actually B&LE cars used to bring raw import ore to US Steel's Saxonburg sintering plant which was located on the B&LE. Once the G-38/39 cars were in service the B&LE cars dissappeared from this service. I used to watch the trains going thru my home town of Berwyn day after day with Baldwin Centipedes on the rear pushing to Paoli. ------------------ Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:05:54 -0400 Buzz, The MDC low-side ore jenny is a close model of the PRR low-side jennies as you said. The MDC "extended-height" ore jenny is a good approximation of only one unique PRR tall jenny. All the rest of the PR tall jennies were not of the extended height type which were really a low side jenny with a height extension. There is no HO-scale model that I know of that matches the standard PRR high side jennies. Sure wish there was! Jim Six Madison Village, Ohio Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=205020 Over 60,000 visitors and more than 1100 pictures and growing . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Burnley, Charles" To: Cc: "'PRR-TALK@DSOP.COM'" Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Ore cars > Many years ago MDC (Model Die Casting/Roundhouse) made reasonably close > Pennsy ore-jennys. I forget the correct class designations (G39???), but > there was a low side and a high side version of approximately the same > length. These were "G" class cars w/ solid bottoms and were new to the > railroad after steam was retired. The '98' Walthers catalog still had them > listed for sale, somewhere around 8 or 9 bucks. > I have also see photos of ore trains on the main line in West Philly (Paoli > area?) with what looked like DM&IR ore cars being pulled by electrics. > Hate being so vague here but I don't have any reference material here at > work. Maybe someone else out there can be more specific. > Good Luck > Buzz > > -----Original Message----- > From: NDBPRR@aol.com [mailto:NDBPRR@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:50 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Ore cars > > > Which ore car is right for PRR in HO? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:12:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > The DM&IR cars were actually B&LE cars used to bring raw import ore to US > Steel's Saxonburg sintering plant which was located on the B&LE. Once the > G-38/39 cars were in service the B&LE cars dissappeared from this service. I > used to watch the trains going thru my home town of Berwyn day after day with > Baldwin Centipedes on the rear pushing to Paoli. ------------------ Ken Ken, When would these cars (the B&LE ore jennies) have started in service? Happy Rails, temporarily from the Embassy Suites, Newark DE! Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:14:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Keith B. Thompson - Sun" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Signal Bridges Jon, You see copies of the MOW Plans book come up on ebay every once and awhile. If you want I can mail you a copy of the signal bridge page(s). kbt > Subject: PRR Signal Bridges > From: > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:29:03 EDT > > List > Thank you all for the help so far on the PRR signal bridge line drawings. > Any one else out there with any more ideas please let me know. Does any > one know of a source for this PRR MOW Plans book ? > Thank You > Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:19:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Flats vs. PRR FM's On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Jerry Britton wrote: > Red Caboose recently came out with a four-pack of PRR MoW cars, which > included two flat cars (in addition to two X-29's). > > We know the RC X-29's are very true to prototype. What can be said of the > flat cars? Red Caboose calls them a "42'10" Fish Belly Side Sill Flat Car". > The MoW versions are labeled as class FM. Although why they would offer the 4 pack with one yellow and one grey is beyond me!!!!! Took me right out of the market. >I know a lot of FM cars went into MoW. Are these models close? Or world's > away? Whose our resident flat car expert? Dunno if I count, but these are not "FM" class cars. They are 2' too long, and the side stake and rivet patterns are wrong. The only good "FM" model other thatn the recent Railworks brass versions is the Sunshine kit - Excellent, and offered both in regular, MOW and MOW with side plank versions as I recall. Happy Rails, from on the road Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:29:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars In a message dated 10/26/2000 4:11:55 PM Central Daylight Time, jimsix@ncweb.com writes: << The MDC low-side ore jenny is a close model of the PRR low-side jennies as you said. The MDC "extended-height" ore jenny is a good approximation of only one unique PRR tall jenny. All the rest of the PR tall jennies were not of the extended height type which were really a low side jenny with a height extension. There is no HO-scale model that I know of that matches the standard PRR high side jennies. Sure wish there was! >> Hi Gize, IIRC, and I got it right this time for sure, Ed Martin did an article on kitbashing a very close replica of the ore car from the MDC kit in Mainline a few years back. He followed this with an article on scratchbuilding the higher sided variant shortly thereafter. I'm sure because I have been collecting MDC low side cars for a while to do my ore train. I believe the low sided car was G38 and the higher sided variant was the G39. I also recall there was an article in either the Keystone or Rails Northeast which preceeded Ed's kitbash article by a few years. This article had the diagrams and lots of photographs. Walt Stafa in Columbus would know for sure if it was in the Keystone or Rails Northeast. Al Stump ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:27:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann (Spectrum) Passenger Cars On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Peter Reinhold wrote: > Don't know if this has been covered before, sorry if it has. I model the > Elmira Branch in 1948-50 and not up to speed on passenger equipment. How > accurate are the Bachmann Spectrum PRR passenger cars. OK for stand ins? > This sounds like a really stupid question but which paint would be correct > pre or post war. BTW, when did the paint change on the passenger cars? Peter, These cars are almost perfect for PRR, right down to the PRR protoype trucks under the PRR painted versions (DO NOT BUY UNDEC, they do not get PRR trucks)...incredibly, Botchman will not sell these trucks independently!! The prototypes are the "prewar" heavy weight series, including P70 coaches and he PB70 combine. The post war scheme would be most correct for your years, as the black underbody/trucks is what you need, however, the yellow (dulux gold) lettering will not be appropriate so you may need to strip the bodies and reletter them. A word of caution there- the underbodies are attached to the sides so you need to repaint those if you strip too. I have also had problems with the coupler mechanism, which allows the coupler box to pivot with the truck, as there is slack in the mechanism and the couplers sag, and move up when the slack is pulled out. I am contmeplatijng rigid permanent coupler instalations. Happy Rails, 1 mile from the former PRR mainline in Newark DE Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:38:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars Hello Jerry With this talk about what is the correct HO model for the G38 and G39 PRR Ore jennies. And that there are only "stand in" (re:MDC type jennies) HO models available to the PRR modeling community. Could a message be forwarded to several of the manufactures (ie: Bowser) about this lists interest and inquiries about this missing type of PRR car? This may stir up some dust as G38's and G39's would be purchased in multiples and they would fit the bill for the PC and Conrail eras. Food for thought. Cheers Brad Bower Digital Image Works ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:46:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: [PRR] Safe Harbor Arrangement of tracks Hello all, While zipping through Delaware in my normal hyper caffinated (actually, been off cafiene for over 6 months) manner, I stopped athe Hagley Museum yesterday for a frenetic 2 hours of research...WAY COOL! Here is just one gem I found... A map of "The General Layout of Structures, Safe Harbour Project, Safe Harbor Water Power Corp." Originally drawn 10/23/23, updated 10 times with the final updates on 10/27/34(Hard to read the last digit). This map clearly shows the track alignments as they were post construction of the A&S, but prior to electrification. The siding for the power plant has a turnout just prio to the C&PD bridge. One leg heads under the C&PD and enters the Conowingo substation on the West shore of Conestoga Creek. The other leg heads across the road bridge over conestoga creek and appears to join the siding for the coal loading operation on the other side of the creek. The coal loading siding on the east side of the creek is a single track with a switch back whose tail extends to just under the A&S trestle! Other finds...8x10 color transparancies of ariel photos of Holtwood and Safeharbor, 8x10 B&W photo of the east end of Holtwood showing the track arrangement there (all circa 1958) and a number of brochures showing the dredging operations before the 117 dredge (in one case a steam crane on a barge pushed by a paddlewheeler)...all very cool! Happy Rails, from the road Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:03:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann (Spectrum) Passenger Cars Bruce, Peter, ��The Bachmann P70 series cars are nice models. They do have their little drawbacks. The Keystone reviewed them when first released. Something to do with the end details were wrong. But hey, for $15-$20 the cars are great. ��Bruce. To remedy the sagging couplers, get rid of the swing mech. Discard them completely. Purchase JayBee Mounting Pads. They have a set specificly for these cars. These are body mount so tight radius's have to be avoided. No more uncoupling when tracking over ueven laid track! ��Peter, yes, you need to look for the post war versions. Looks like faded Tuscan with black under body. When this first version hit the market I purchased a set and back dated the paint job to the early-mid 1930's so it would go with one of my PFM K4's. Sure enough the second release was of this paint job version too. I still like mine better as I have the orange sash painted on mine. This sash also could be painted black or aluminum too. But I preferred the Orange sash. I think I have one pictured on my second website listed below. (page 2)......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DATSMan@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:21:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Proper decal color I am finishing a Stewart C628 lettered PRR with no number. While looking thru numerous books it appears that the Champ road number color seems closer than the Microscale color which is yellow. Any thoughts? Also, I applied Microscale Keystones OVER the printed ones on the unit since the color was better - same size - they cover perfectly. Another question - my recollection is that the handrails/steps/etc. were more yellow than the numbers - agree? Thanks. Bob O'Leary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: Re: [PRR] Proper decal color Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:30:30 -0400 Bob, To me, the Microscale yellow numbers are right for the C628 and other late paint jobs. I have seen the real thing and remember then well. But still, time can make for "fuzzy" memories! Jim Six Madison Village, Ohio Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=205020 Over 60,000 visitors and more than 1100 pictures and growing . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 8:21 PM Subject: [PRR] Proper decal color > I am finishing a Stewart C628 lettered PRR with no number. While looking thru > numerous books it appears that the Champ road number color seems closer than > the Microscale color which is yellow. Any thoughts? > Also, I applied Microscale Keystones OVER the printed ones on the unit since > the color was better - same size - they cover perfectly. > Another question - my recollection is that the handrails/steps/etc. were more > yellow than the numbers - agree? Thanks. > > Bob O'Leary > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] ECW N&W class H2, H2a and H3 hoppers Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:39:21 -0400 Eastern Car Works (ECW) has just released their latest kit which is a N&W 70 ton class H2,H2a, H3 car. The kit makes into either class H2, H2a or H3. The class H2a were N&W built in 1956 and leased to the PRR from 1958-1967, see John Teichmoeller's new PRR hopper book (guide)(also found in December 1993 "MRG" on pages 44-49 for those who have not yet bought the book). The B&O and Wabash also had leased some during different time periods. This is a flat castings styrene kit which I have just about completed and want to give you my comments and opinions. This is a typical ECW kit and does not meet the fine standards we have come to appreciate from P2K, Branchline, Red Caboose and Intermountain. This is not a shake the box kit and some knowledge of prototype hopper car construction I believe is a must. The instructions are verbal with three photos and no exploded diagram. This could definitely be better. Also typical of ECW no weight is provided and there is really precious little area in which weights can be stashed in a hopper car. I don't have a good scale but the car feels to be way too light to run without a load. Overall the dimensions seem to be okay or very close according to some Geissel plans I have from an old "MR" and those shown in John's book on pages 86 and 87 . The biggest visual problems are: 1. the side top chord does not meet the end top chord at the corners. However, this can be overcome with some Evergreen strip styrene representing the corner bracing plates which are not molded or provided. The top chord also seems to be a little too deep but I did not have any plans with this dimension to check exactly. 2. the center piece of the "T" section side ribs do not go flush to the bottom, rather they end in a semicircle before reaching the bottom. This is a difficult fault to correct. 3. I think the "Z" bars (parts #2) which connect the pocket doors are too gross and should be replaced by Evergreen material. 4. The pocket doors are way too thick and should be sanded down, probably reducing the thickness by 3/4. This will allow the door locks to interface with the "Z" bar more appropriately. 5. The air brake equipment lacks piping which could have been minimally represented at leased by using the Atlas hopper method. 6. When constructed, the bolster supports (part #?) do not meet the bottom of the slope sheet. I believe they should. Rivet counters will no doubt be disappointed as the rivet patterns on the side ribs do not exactly match those in the photos I had to look at, but are acceptable to me. The inside grab and steps John talks about on page 85 are represented. The clevis on the brake cylinder (part #4) is 90 degrees out of orientation to mate with the brake beam. I carefully twisted the clevis 90 degrees with a long nose pliers after the part had been glued to the under frame. The brake beam (part #6) also appears to be too gross. I fabricated one out of Evergreen HO 1"x6" tapering the sides with a single edge razor blade. Brass wire should be added to represent the retainer pipe and the brake rod. I would also suggest using a Kadee brake wheel rather than the one provided. One thing the instructions do not indicate is where the "A" and "B" ends should be relative to the orientation of the hopper pockets. The N&W diagram (pg 86 in the guide) and the photos show the "A" end closest to the facing pockets while the "B" end is closest to the pockets facing in the same direction. Make sure to clean of all flash and gates, also make sure the ends of each piece is perpendicular as they usually are not in a plastic casting (to allow for mold release). The stirrups are very fragile and I broke three off during construction. I was going to replace them anyway. One nice thing about this kit is the inclusion of slope sheet supports (part #12). However, again not as fine as they could be and I had a difficult time mounting them. As the instructions suggest I had to "file if necessary" that is the top of the coupler pocket on the frame. The instructions indicate to glue the ends on last, I actually glued them on before I added the under frame w/ brake equipment. I think it goes better but this is a personal preference. The trucks provided are typical ECW "Bettendorf Freight" but don't look right according the photos I have. I will have to find replacements. In summary if you are modeling an era when the PRR had lots of these (Oct. 1957- Jan.1966) and don't have an unlimited budget for brass I guess this kit is your answer. If your modeling a later period when there were only a few on the roster (Apr.1966 - Apr. 1967) I would recommend you wait and get one of the Rail Classic versions. Eddy Piazza is pretty fastidious about his products. Overall its not bad, "layout grade" as Allen McClelland would say. However, I wish Stewart or Atlas would have made this class. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:04:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Buff vs. Dulux In a message dated 10/25/00 7:51:13 PM Central Daylight Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: << I have found on my models that the Dulux gold stripes show up much better than the bronze gold; I letter my engines and cars with the Champ Dulux gold sets even though my era is closer to 1948, trading accuracy for legibility. >> Don't tell the prototype police, but I do the same for the same reasons. The bronze gold just doesn't show up on the models like it does in photos of the prototype. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:39:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann (Spectrum) Passenger Cars In a message dated 10/26/00 12:57:40 PM Central Daylight Time, preinhol@unidie.com writes: << BTW, when did the paint change on the passenger cars? >> I don't think it did. Bachmann brought out the cars originally with the color mixed in the plastic. Sort of a salmon pink. Now, they double the price to correctly paint the cars tuscan red and call those "prewar" and the others "postwar". I do believe the "postwar cars" may only have one stripe under the windows, but it is difficult to tell on either. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Modelers List members, I know there are a few Pittsburgh Area Modelers on these lists so this post goes out to you guys/gals. If you have Streetcar trackage on your layout I recommend you search for one of those new 1947 versions of the PGH Railways PCC's that MTS Brass Imports released 3 weeks ago. Gorgeous Models. They are sold out at MTS. Only 50 were imported. (I can't believe that!). A.B. Charles Hobby shop in Pittsburgh recieved his allotmant of 20 and they were spoken for before they arrived. I believe he could have sold all 50. I wish I knew they were that limited, I would have saved up to get one. They are not cheap!. Anyway I just completed painting 6 of the PCC's for Mr. Charles's customers. More to paint later. These are great models. They even come with the destination sign decals for any of the routes in Pittsburgh. Neat!!! With only 30 other PGH PCC's out there the hunt will be pretty hard to secure one The last time I checked D&S Hobbies brass list he still had one of the earlier releases from 2 years ago of the as built version PGH PCC. Either model would look terrific on a Pittsburgh based layout. I will have photos of the new PCC's added to my website at a later date. I do however have a few of the earlier released PCC's listed already. Good Luck if you search for one of these little gems.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:29:27 -0400 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Modelers Gary Mittner wrote: > > List members, > > I know there are a few Pittsburgh Area Modelers on these lists so > this post goes out to you guys/gals. If you have Streetcar trackage on > your layout I recommend you search for one of those new 1947 versions of > the PGH Railways PCC's that MTS Brass Imports released 3 weeks ago. > Gorgeous Models. They are sold out at MTS. Only 50 were imported. The Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum (formerly the Pittsburgh Model Railroad Historical Society) has a few, and you can see them running during their Holiday Show over a gorgeous model of the Smithfield Street Bridge. Patrick -- =========================================================================== " My heart is warm with the friends I make, And better friends I'll not be knowing; Yet there isn't a train I wouldn't take, No matter where it's going." -Edna St. Vincent Millay, Travel, 1921 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, The Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati (formerly Railway Exposition Company), Latonia, Kentucky PRRT&HS #6713 ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:47:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] More on the PRR F7 with large tank Jerry, Give Dan and Paul a little time and I am sure your request will be granted. They have some of the finest photo's I have ever seen, but in the next book I hope they will give us a few shots of the back ends of the A units. Greg Martin jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Okay, so where is that Withers book Volume xxxx that has a photo for every unit in the F7 fleet! -------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:30:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Proper decal color In a message dated 10/26/00 8:26:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DATSMan@aol.com writes: << Another question - my recollection is that the handrails/steps/etc. were more yellow than the numbers - agree? Thanks. >> The handrails and step edges were painted chrome yellow a very bright yellow. ----------------------- Ken McCorry ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:42:59 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Withers diesel series (was PRR F7 with large tank) TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Give Dan and Paul a little time and I am sure your request will be granted. > They have some of the finest photo's I have ever seen, but in the next book I > hope they will give us a few shots of the back ends of the A units. > > Greg Martin Greetings to Greg, Jerry and the list: Greg, thanks for the vote of confidence. With the release of the Fairbanks-Morse installment, the series is officially back in production following the death of original author Jack Hahn. I think I've posted this info before, but it's been several weeks: A final decision hasn't been made on which group of diesels will be the subject of the next book up, but the last time publisher Paul Withers and I discussed the project, his three most likely candidates were being narrowed to GEs, E units, or F units. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com John 3:16 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:52:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Proper decal color Paul, Can I jump in here too...? DATSMan@aol.com writes: << I am finishing a Stewart C628 lettered PRR with no number. While looking thru numerous books it appears that the Champ road number color seems closer than the Microscale color which is yellow. Any thoughts?>> Not really critical if you were going to weather the locomotive, I personally like the MICROSCALE better as they seem closer and the decals film is much thinner (a must on the smooth side of a cab). << Also, I applied Microscale Keystones OVER the printed ones on the unit since the color was better - same size - they cover perfectly. Another question - my recollection is that the handrails/steps/etc. were more yellow than the numbers - agree? Thanks. Bob O'Leary >> Correct, Bob the handrails and step edges were a bright safety yellow. I have always used Testors Chrome Yellow in the Model Master series, but I might be tempted to use ModelFlex and say C&O yellow to do the job if I were doing it today, I like the nontoxic idea more and more. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Withers diesel series (was PRR F7 with large tank) From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:56:18 -0500 Dan Cupper Wrote: Greg, thanks for the vote of confidence. With the release of the Fairbanks-Morse installment, the series is officially back in production following the death of original author Jack Hahn. I think I've posted this info before, but it's been several weeks: A final decision hasn't been made on which group of diesels will be the subject of the next book up, but the last time publisher Paul Withers and I discussed the project, his three most likely candidates were being narrowed to GEs, E units, or F units. Dan It will take two volumes for all the variations of F's. Or maybe a mini-series Randy Williamson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:50:08 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches Greg, Thanx for the info on the replaceable pier panels on the new Walthers cars. My interest is picking up. It sounds like they may do it right. For once I am glad to have procrastinated on kit bashing a Congo :-) -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:13:36 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches The Senator did not carry the all-drawing-room parlor car, or a coffee shop car. It had a single unit diner. Since the Congo had the telephone (in the days before cellular!) in the drawing room car, the Senator had one in the Observation. That made the two observations different. I don't recall off-hand if it produced a difference in window pattern. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > PRR also assigned these cars to the Senator in the same paint scheme although > there were some more variations on the interiors and possibly windows. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul Stumpff" Subject: [PRR] Re: ore cars Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:23:14 -0400 List: The B&LE ore jennies entered in service in 1952. The Venezuelan ore that was imported to Saxonburg Sintering plant started in 1956. Route was via PRR to Butler then B&LE to Saxonburg. B&LE "Bulletin" [in house magazine] of early 1956 shows first train load descending into Butler across B&O [BR&P] at VO tower behind Baldwin Sharks. Paul Stumpff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:26:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Back On Air From: Jerry Britton The lists have been offline since early morning today until just a few minutes ago, due to an equipment failure at our ISP (epix.net). Hopefully it is back up for good! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L Subject: [PRR] Alco book and Arbour J-1 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:13:31 -0500 Who was inquiring about the Withers PRR Diesel Pic Vol 1 Alco Rs series book? I deleted the emails before I found a few copies of the book here in Dallas TX. I have no problem picking these up and mailing them. Email me privately if interested. Also, about the Arbour J-1 I found a few weeks ago. It was already bought when I went back to the store, sorry for those interested. I did get a deal on a fully detailed Penn Line H-9 for $50. J Hildenbrand ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:25:22 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Walthers was CONGO coaches Guys, I forgot to mention the skirts will be a separate part. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 23:10:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] VitaCal PRR List, Opinions please of Vitachrome Graphics' "VitaCal" decal paper for Inkjet Printers. Did it live up to its claim of the Inkjet ink not washing away when immersed? Was it easy to use? Did the fixing spray have an odor (something the better-half would object to)? Pros and Cons plus any helpful hints would be appreciated. Any and all responses will be appreciated. Thank you in advance, Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:28:40 -0400 Subject: MoW Color - was Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Flats vs. PRR FM's From: James K Bunger Bruce, Is the issue with the grey and yellow color of the cars due to the times in which the two schemes existed? Is there a reference book that discusses this? I also assume that the 4 cars are a set and are not available separately. Thanks! James Bunger On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:19:57 -0500 (CDT) Bruce F Smith writes: > On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Jerry Britton wrote: > > Red Caboose recently came out with a four-pack of PRR MoW cars, > which > > included two flat cars (in addition to two X-29's). > > > > We know the RC X-29's are very true to prototype. What can be said > of the > > flat cars? Red Caboose calls them a "42'10" Fish Belly Side Sill > Flat Car". > > The MoW versions are labeled as class FM. > > Although why they would offer the 4 pack with one yellow and one > grey is > beyond me!!!!! Took me right out of the market. > > >I know a lot of FM cars went into MoW. Are these models close? Or > world's > > away? Whose our resident flat car expert? > > Dunno if I count, but these are not "FM" class cars. They are 2' > too > long, and the side stake and rivet patterns are wrong. The only > good "FM" > model other thatn the recent Railworks brass versions is the > Sunshine kit > - Excellent, and offered both in regular, MOW and MOW with side > plank > versions as I recall. > > Happy Rails, from on the road > Bruce > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:08:45 -0400 Subject: Re: MoW Color - was Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Flats vs. PRR FM's From: Jerry Britton On 10/28/00 12:28 AM, James K Bunger at (gg1electric@juno.com) wrote: > Is the issue with the grey and yellow color of the cars due to the > times in which the two schemes existed? Is there a reference book that > discusses this? > There is a book coming out next year on MoW. In fact, several of this list's subscribers are contributors. The yellow/grey color change occured in 1953 (I believe). Red Caboose calls this a "Pre-1954" set. In fact, you would likely see both colors for many years after the change. > I also assume that the 4 cars are a set and are not available > separately. > Correct. Not only that, but Red Caboose lists this as a "Limited Run" set...meaning that it will not be rerun as with their other cars. The "Battery" and "Service" cars are not listed as such. ("Merchandise Service" has both HO and N sets in stock.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:23:37 -0400 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units Reg Neale forwarded this note from the Athearn announcement list: >"F" Units >Latest word is that we'll be shipping the PRR version of the Genesis F7A >before the end of the year (year 2000, that is). The tooling is done, and >production will start soon. After the PRR version, look for the rest of the >road names to arrive in early 2001. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 07:40:35 EST Subject: [PRR] FYI PRR List, Ran across an interesting site that would appeal to the railroad history buffs. See: . Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Order to Clover House for dry transfers Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 13:38:15 -0500 Help..... A couple of weeks ago, some one posted a message that he was planning to send off an order to Clover House for some dry transfers. I was the only bidder on an undecorated MT 36' foot reefer on eBay and now could use a set of dry transfer lettering for the car. If the person posting has not yet ordered please contact me off list so we can make some arrangement. Many thanks, Gregg Mahlkov e-mail: mahlkov@gtcom.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:57:10 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 Hi Rob and list members, I've looked over the image in question. There appear to be similarities to the X23, but there are also some items missing - such as some extra bracing the PRR X23 cars had (missing on this car), and some extra framing along the bottom of the car sides (again, missing on this car). If it is an X23, it has been modified and/or rebuilt at some point. So it's tough to say exactly... - Claus From: "Rob Schoenberg" To: , "Dave Pfeiffer" Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:12:58 -0400 > There's a car that sure looks like an X23 at the New York Central Museum in > Elkhart, In. The only identifying marks is the car # painted on the side. > Sure looks like an X23 to me and it's on PRR trucks. Is my id correct? > I put a shot of it on my web site at: > http://prr.railfan.net/photos/PRR_499656_X23_side_RS_Elkhart_IN.JPG > > There is also the underframe of another scrapped car identical to this in > the weeds outside the museum fence... > > I'm not sure why a NYC museum would have an X23 but they also have a GG1 so > go figure! > > Thanks! > > Rob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave Pfeiffer > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:35 AM > Subject: [PRR] X23 > > > > While returning from the Sunshine RPM meet in Naperville this past > > weekend, I stopped at Coshocktin, Ohio to try and find the Ohio Central RR > > shop complex (failed). On route 36, there was a tourist trap called The > > Unusual Station which had in addition to some passenger cars, what > appeared > > to be a former PRR X23. Does anyone know if in fact this is an X23 and > > the one for which there was a preservation attempt during the past year? > > One of the passenger cars was labeled "Defender" which I believe is former > > PRR but was not in PRR colors. Some of the cars appear to be somewhat > > butchered. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Dave Pfeiffer > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 14:43:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 Gentlemen, Sorry I have to offer my two cents worth. I believe the car in question to be an X-23. I agree it may have been modified over it's long years of service but nonetheless an authentic X-23 in MOW colors and configuration. By the way Rob that photo is rather poor on my end. Please compare to the X-23 I shot at Mingo Jct., Ohio (#499277) May 15, 1977, on your site. I have also reviewed the other photos on your site and though one is a coke car (sans roof and door) the layout and equipment appear the same. We need to get someone over to the Northern Ohio Railway Museum and get some better photos of that car. I'd like to see more of the underframe and the way the AB brake equipment is mounted. If someone accepts the task please take a flash. Ed Martin...Las Vegas, Nevada ...a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving ...banned by Ed Hall Director Cajon Div., NMRA ...member of the gang of two ...SPF (Super Pennsy Fan) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 15:15:45 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: MoW Color - was Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Flats vs. PRR FM's According to lettering tracings in my possession There was no serparate MOW scheme prior to Mid-1940 when the color battleship gray and black lettering was adopted. According to "Shadow Keystone" tracings in the PRR Conpendium published a decade ago by middle Division and now out of print, the Yellow with black lettering scheme was adopted in December 1954 but this is by reference only. I have not been able to locate the tracing referreed to in later diagrams. Tom V. In a message dated Sat, 28 Oct 2000 8:18:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jerry Britton writes: << On 10/28/00 12:28 AM, James K Bunger at (gg1electric@juno.com) wrote: > Is the issue with the grey and yellow color of the cars due to the > times in which the two schemes existed? Is there a reference book that > discusses this? > There is a book coming out next year on MoW. In fact, several of this list's subscribers are contributors. The yellow/grey color change occured in 1953 (I believe). Red Caboose calls this a "Pre-1954" set. In fact, you would likely see both colors for many years after the change. > I also assume that the 4 cars are a set and are not available > separately. > Correct. Not only that, but Red Caboose lists this as a "Limited Run" set...meaning that it will not be rerun as with their other cars. The "Battery" and "Service" cars are not listed as such. ("Merchandise Service" has both HO and N sets in stock.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 15:22:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] A&S Low Grade Line water station. Hello, Anyone have track chart for the line West of Quarryville. Found a person with a small reservoir and granite works building on there property just above the line.It's classic PRR design. I'm thinking it supplied standpipes. It is located about 4 miles west of Smithville.Also were helpers needed anywhere along the A&S ? ��Thax-Mark L�� ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:24:32 -0500 List members: I have got to add that I have never seen bracing shaped the way it is on this car except on X23's, although the horizontal bracing between the vertical and diagonal bracing has been removed except at the ends, as has the additional bracing at the bottom. BUT, the reason this bracing has been removed is also evident. The sheathing on this car runs horizontally, while it was vertical on the original X23's, which was the reason for the additional bracing! However, I seem to recall that the Reading Co. had cars similar to the X23, in both a boxcar and refirgerator car version. Might this have been one of theirs? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: "Rob Schoenberg" Cc: Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 > Hi Rob and list members, > > I've looked over the image in question. There appear to be > similarities to the X23, but there are also some items > missing - such as some extra bracing the PRR X23 > cars had (missing on this car), > and some extra framing along the bottom of the > car sides (again, missing on this car). > If it is an X23, it has been modified and/or rebuilt > at some point. > > So it's tough to say exactly... > > - Claus > > > From: "Rob Schoenberg" > To: , "Dave Pfeiffer" > Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 > Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:12:58 -0400 > > > There's a car that sure looks like an X23 at the New York Central Museum in > > Elkhart, In. The only identifying marks is the car # painted on the side. > > Sure looks like an X23 to me and it's on PRR trucks. Is my id correct? > > I put a shot of it on my web site at: > > http://prr.railfan.net/photos/PRR_499656_X23_side_RS_Elkhart_IN.JPG > > > > There is also the underframe of another scrapped car identical to this in > > the weeds outside the museum fence... > > > > I'm not sure why a NYC museum would have an X23 but they also have a GG1 so > > go figure! > > > > Thanks! > > > > Rob > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dave Pfeiffer > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:35 AM > > Subject: [PRR] X23 > > > > > > > While returning from the Sunshine RPM meet in Naperville this past > > > weekend, I stopped at Coshocktin, Ohio to try and find the Ohio Central RR > > > shop complex (failed). On route 36, there was a tourist trap called The > > > Unusual Station which had in addition to some passenger cars, what > > appeared > > > to be a former PRR X23. Does anyone know if in fact this is an X23 and > > > the one for which there was a preservation attempt during the past year? > > > One of the passenger cars was labeled "Defender" which I believe is former > > > PRR but was not in PRR colors. Some of the cars appear to be somewhat > > > butchered. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Dave Pfeiffer > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:41:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 In a message dated 10/29/00 1:27:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << The sheathing on this car runs horizontally, while it was vertical on the original X23's >> Greg, Are we viewing the same car? The photo I'm looking at on Rob's web site appears to me to be vertical. Ed Martin...graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:59:36 -0500 Ed: I just looked at it again. (the photo website in the message) and the sheathing is definitely horizontal, with the individual boards running from end to doorpost rather than roof to floor. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Cc: Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 > In a message dated 10/29/00 1:27:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, > mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > > << The sheathing on this car runs horizontally, while > it was vertical on the original X23's >> > > Greg, > > Are we viewing the same car? The photo I'm looking at on Rob's web site > appears to me to be vertical. > > Ed Martin...graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:07:30 -0500 From: Bob Subject: [PRR] Auto/pickup/wrecker photo source Over the weekend I received some junk mail as usual and included was a Danbury Mint catalog, "Classics of the Open Road". If the photos & models are correct, the vintages range from 1925 thru 1969. Their models are a touch pricey starting at $125 but the photos of each vehicle is about 4 inches long. Besides cars & pickups, 5 different gas pumps, 4 wreckers, 3 tractors. I only wished the 1929 Dodge pickup & the 1931 US Mail truck had been in color. Hey, it was free! The toll free order number is 800- 493-2934; should be able to ask for a catalog. Checked the `Net for Danbury and only Danbury sports stuff came up. But did find the diecast collectors with nice pics of vehicles @: http://www.diecast.org/ --Bob Colquitt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS BoD Meeting Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:25:18 -0500 List members, I will be attending the PRRT&HS Board of Directors meeting currently scheduled for Nov. 11th. Do any of you (members) have comments or questions that you would like to have aired? If you respond please include your name if it is not obvious from your e-mail address. Thanx. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] X23 Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:00:18 -0800 Gentlemen: The car in question is definitely an X23. The original steel truss design proved to be overbuilt like many other early steel and composite boxcars; as a result, some cars resheathed late in their service lives had the horizontal truss members removed and horizontal sheathing applied (pictures or a rebuilt car exist in Richard Burg's collection and were included in Gary Rauch's clinic on PRR boxcars at San Jose). You'll see the same sheathing and truss pattern on Class X23A coke cars, Class X23B round roof rebuilds, and some Class NX23 cabin cars. It is most definitely NOT a Reading SS reefer - boxcar door opening left, and the truss pattern on the reefer does not alternate diagonals like the X23. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 22:49:55 EST Subject: [PRR] "Cyndis" PRR List, The site I referred to is the site of the U.S. Railroad Retirement Board. To get to cyndislist go to then go down the page to find cyndislist. I still have only briefly perused this site but found that little bit very entertaining, especially the fun facts of railroad terms. My apologies for my internet illiteracy causing you trouble. Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brooks" Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:30:15 -0500 > We need to get someone over to the Northern Ohio Railway Museum and get some > better photos of that car. I'd like to see more of the underframe and the way > the AB brake equipment is mounted. If someone accepts the task please take a > flash. Gize, Since I live less than a mile from this car, I'll accept the photographic task at hand. It won't happen before the weekend, as my schedule is booked to the hilt this week. Honestly, I've been past this collection a zillion times and never noticed the X23. (The eyes go first, I guess.) BTW: Thanks to Dick Ross for sending me the museum's contact information. I'll give them a call and make arrangements to take the photos. Brian Brooks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:38:54 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] VitaCal Evan, I just used the material to prepared decals for a special project for the local community band. I had no trouble running them through the ink jet printer. You have to be careful handling them off the printer. Easy to smudge and smear. Therefore, I only print one at a time and move them off the printer before the next one. I used the manual feed rather then the paper tray. The odor for the fixative is awful! You really need to do this in a well ventilated area or an area that can pull the fumes out quickly. You also need to give the finished product a real good coating of the fixative to prevent wash out and bleeding. The paper is very thick, but the decal material is really thin. It does take a little longer then commercial decales to lift off the backing, so a little patience is required. Good luck. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > PRR List, > > Opinions please of Vitachrome Graphics' "VitaCal" decal paper for Inkjet > Printers. > Did it live up to its claim of the Inkjet ink not washing away when > immersed? Was it easy to use? Did the fixing spray have an odor (something > the better-half would object to)? Pros and Cons plus any helpful hints would > be appreciated. > > Any and all responses will be appreciated. > > Thank you in advance, > > Evan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:01:55 -0500 Derrick and the List: That is good news. But I hope that Athearn decides on using the correct shade of Brunswick Green and not the "Hunter Green" version of Brunswick Green that P2K has done over recent years! Ted -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 6:24 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units Reg Neale forwarded this note from the Athearn announcement list: >"F" Units >Latest word is that we'll be shipping the PRR version of the Genesis F7A >before the end of the year (year 2000, that is). The tooling is done, and >production will start soon. After the PRR version, look for the rest of the >road names to arrive in early 2001. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:31:46 -0500 Hi guys, I am semi-new to PRR-talk and have been reading your messages for a while now. On this list and others I have read people express their discontent with the so-called "Brunswick Green" that Life-Like has used on their P2K models. I certainly agree with y'all that it is not a good match for a just-out-of-the-paintshop locomotive, but when weathered, it makes a great color that looks just like the hundreds of PRR diesels that I watched first hand for many years. My personal take on the hobby of model railroading is to acquire models that are as realistic as reasonably possible, . . . this means the paint/finish needs to look just as it did on the prototype as it worked out on the road and not sitting in front of the paint shop with a fresh coat of paint on it. To see examples, click on: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=205020&a=1594599 . . . I dare say that the color of none of these models match rubbed out paint chips of the prototype, drift cards, or any other means of identifying freshly applied PRR paint. But at least to me, they look very much like the prototype as I remember it. Both the Proto 2000 GP7 and the Kato GP35 have factory applied paint. Now, if your quest is not realism as it was in the daily work life of locomotives, then Life-Like and Kato paint will not get it done for you. Many people want shelf models that reflect "virgin" Pennsy locomotives. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, . . . just a different twist on the hobby from mine. My point is this, . . . not everyone wants their models to appear fresh and virgin just as not everyone wants them to be weathered and "used." While Life-Like's version of PRR Green may not be good enough for some, it is perfect for my use. Jim Six Madison Village, Ohio Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=205020 Over 60,000 visitors and more than 1100 pictures and growing . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrews, Ted" To: "'Derrick J Brashear'" ; Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 9:01 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units > Derrick and the List: > > That is good news. But I hope that Athearn decides on using the correct > shade of Brunswick Green and not the "Hunter Green" version of Brunswick > Green that P2K has done over recent years! > > Ted > > -----Original Message----- > From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] > Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 6:24 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units > > > Reg Neale forwarded this note from the Athearn announcement list: > > >"F" Units > >Latest word is that we'll be shipping the PRR version of the Genesis F7A > >before the end of the year (year 2000, that is). The tooling is done, and > >production will start soon. After the PRR version, look for the rest of the > >road names to arrive in early 2001. > > -D > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:48:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units Jim, Good point. I kinda like the finish of the Proto stuff as well. And yes they do weather up nicely with that as the color base. Ted, I heard that the paint for the Athearn PRR Units will lean towards the black side of black, not the green side of black.. If you know what I mean. With the guys from this list helping out with the product I assume this color will be excellent. Probably somewhere between the Proto 2000 "faded" DGLE and Black. Still should weather up nicely though ...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:53:04 -0500 Jim: I agree with you with what you are saying. I was too young to experience the PRR first hand. The Pennsy Power, Pennsy Diesel Years, and Withers books are very good in displaying how the typical Pennsy engine looked under normal operating conditions. In the Pennsy Diesel Years books, I was amased at the differences in shades and colors that were found on the weathered engines. I think that lighting had allot to do with it, but some engines had greyish, blueish, and greenish shades to their overall appearance. I am planning on weathering some of my engines to reflect this. In addition, your recent published articles on NKP engines show that it can be done quite effectively. I guess my modeling preference is to weather my PRR engines as if they have been on the road for a couple of months or so. The trucks, pilots, fuel cells, and roofs will have weathering but the rest of the engine will still look new. My original reply was more or less, out of frustration since that many of manufacturers like P2K use a brunswick green that has too much green in it, making my job a little tougher. Ted -----Original Message----- From: Jim Six [mailto:jimsix@ncweb.com] Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 9:32 AM To: Andrews, Ted; 'Derrick J Brashear'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units Hi guys, I am semi-new to PRR-talk and have been reading your messages for a while now. On this list and others I have read people express their discontent with the so-called "Brunswick Green" that Life-Like has used on their P2K models. I certainly agree with y'all that it is not a good match for a just-out-of-the-paintshop locomotive, but when weathered, it makes a great color that looks just like the hundreds of PRR diesels that I watched first hand for many years. My personal take on the hobby of model railroading is to acquire models that are as realistic as reasonably possible, . . . this means the paint/finish needs to look just as it did on the prototype as it worked out on the road and not sitting in front of the paint shop with a fresh coat of paint on it. To see examples, click on: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=205020&a=1594599 . . . I dare say that the color of none of these models match rubbed out paint chips of the prototype, drift cards, or any other means of identifying freshly applied PRR paint. But at least to me, they look very much like the prototype as I remember it. Both the Proto 2000 GP7 and the Kato GP35 have factory applied paint. Now, if your quest is not realism as it was in the daily work life of locomotives, then Life-Like and Kato paint will not get it done for you. Many people want shelf models that reflect "virgin" Pennsy locomotives. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, . . . just a different twist on the hobby from mine. My point is this, . . . not everyone wants their models to appear fresh and virgin just as not everyone wants them to be weathered and "used." While Life-Like's version of PRR Green may not be good enough for some, it is perfect for my use. Jim Six Madison Village, Ohio Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=205020 Over 60,000 visitors and more than 1100 pictures and growing . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrews, Ted" To: "'Derrick J Brashear'" ; Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 9:01 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units > Derrick and the List: > > That is good news. But I hope that Athearn decides on using the correct > shade of Brunswick Green and not the "Hunter Green" version of Brunswick > Green that P2K has done over recent years! > > Ted > > -----Original Message----- > From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] > Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 6:24 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units > > > Reg Neale forwarded this note from the Athearn announcement list: > > >"F" Units > >Latest word is that we'll be shipping the PRR version of the Genesis F7A > >before the end of the year (year 2000, that is). The tooling is done, and > >production will start soon. After the PRR version, look for the rest of the > >road names to arrive in early 2001. > > -D > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:02:49 -0500 Hi Ted, I am with you. I want some of my PRR diesels to appear somewhat new and will weather only the roofs, walkway tops and the running gear beneath the walkways. For this, the Life-Like PRR green won't do. I will have to paint my own in some cases. What I am worried about is that the new Athearn will be too black. I know Greg Martin well and he is of the "black school." If one stopped time and looked at all of the PRR diesels at any instant, precious few would appear "fresh" and the vast majority faded and weathered to some degree. For my own selfish reasons, I hope that Athearn does not get it "right" and match a fresh DGLE paint! ;~) Jim Six Madison Village, Ohio Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=205020 Over 60,000 visitors and more than 1100 pictures and growing . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrews, Ted" To: "'Jim Six'" ; "Andrews, Ted" ; "'Derrick J Brashear'" ; Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 9:53 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units > Jim: > > I agree with you with what you are saying. I was too young to experience the > PRR first hand. The Pennsy Power, Pennsy Diesel Years, and Withers books are > very good in displaying how the typical Pennsy engine looked under normal > operating conditions. In the Pennsy Diesel Years books, I was amased at the > differences in shades and colors that were found on the weathered engines. I > think that lighting had allot to do with it, but some engines had greyish, > blueish, and greenish shades to their overall appearance. > > I am planning on weathering some of my engines to reflect this. In addition, > your recent published articles on NKP engines show that it can be done quite > effectively. > > I guess my modeling preference is to weather my PRR engines as if they have > been on the road for a couple of months or so. The trucks, pilots, fuel > cells, and roofs will have weathering but the rest of the engine will still > look new. My original reply was more or less, out of frustration since that > many of manufacturers like P2K use a brunswick green that has too much green > in it, making my job a little tougher. > > > Ted > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Six [mailto:jimsix@ncweb.com] > Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 9:32 AM > To: Andrews, Ted; 'Derrick J Brashear'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units > > > Hi guys, > > I am semi-new to PRR-talk and have been reading your messages for a while > now. On this list and others I have read people express their discontent > with the so-called "Brunswick Green" that Life-Like has used on their P2K > models. I certainly agree with y'all that it is not a good match for a > just-out-of-the-paintshop locomotive, but when weathered, it makes a great > color that looks just like the hundreds of PRR diesels that I watched first > hand for many years. > > My personal take on the hobby of model railroading is to acquire models that > are as realistic as reasonably possible, . . . this means the paint/finish > needs to look just as it did on the prototype as it worked out on the road > and not sitting in front of the paint shop with a fresh coat of paint on it. > To see examples, click on: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=205020&a=1594599 > . . . I dare say that the color of none of these models match rubbed out > paint chips of the prototype, drift cards, or any other means of identifying > freshly applied PRR paint. But at least to me, they look very much like the > prototype as I remember it. Both the Proto 2000 GP7 and the Kato GP35 have > factory applied paint. > > Now, if your quest is not realism as it was in the daily work life of > locomotives, then Life-Like and Kato paint will not get it done for you. > Many people want shelf models that reflect "virgin" Pennsy locomotives. > There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, . . . just a different twist on > the hobby from mine. > > My point is this, . . . not everyone wants their models to appear fresh and > virgin just as not everyone wants them to be weathered and "used." While > Life-Like's version of PRR Green may not be good enough for some, it is > perfect for my use. > > Jim Six > Madison Village, Ohio > > Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=205020 > Over 60,000 visitors and more than 1100 pictures and growing . . . > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrews, Ted" > To: "'Derrick J Brashear'" ; > Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 9:01 AM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units > > > > Derrick and the List: > > > > That is good news. But I hope that Athearn decides on using the correct > > shade of Brunswick Green and not the "Hunter Green" version of Brunswick > > Green that P2K has done over recent years! > > > > Ted > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] > > Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 6:24 PM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units > > > > > > Reg Neale forwarded this note from the Athearn announcement list: > > > > >"F" Units > > >Latest word is that we'll be shipping the PRR version of the Genesis F7A > > >before the end of the year (year 2000, that is). The tooling is done, and > > >production will start soon. After the PRR version, look for the rest of > the > > >road names to arrive in early 2001. > > > > -D > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:51:23 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F units On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Jim Six wrote: > Hi guys, > > I am semi-new to PRR-talk and have been reading your messages for a while now. On this list and others I have read people express their discontent with the so-called "Brunswick Green" that Life-Like has used on their P2K models. I certainly agree with y'all that it is not a good match for a just-out-of-the-paintshop locomotive, but when weathered, it makes a great color that looks just like the hundreds of PRR diesels that I watched first hand for many years. > > My personal take on the hobby of model railroading is to acquire models that are as realistic as reasonably possible, . . . this means the paint/finish needs to look just as it did on the prototype as it worked out on the road and not sitting in front of the paint shop with a fresh coat of paint on it. To see examples, click on: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=205020&a=1594599 > . . . I dare say that the color of none of these models match rubbed out paint chips of the prototype, drift cards, or any other means of identifying freshly applied PRR paint. But at least to me, they look very much like the prototype as I remember it. Both the Proto 2000 GP7 and the Kato GP35 have factory applied paint. > > Now, if your quest is not realism as it was in the daily work life of locomotives, then Life-Like and Kato paint will not get it done for you. Many people want shelf models that reflect "virgin" Pennsy locomotives. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, . . . just a different twist on the hobby from mine. > > My point is this, . . . not everyone wants their models to appear fresh and virgin just as not everyone wants them to be weathered and "used." While Life-Like's version of PRR Green may not be good enough for some, it is perfect for my use. Full disclosure: I wasn't alive in 1968. I'm not old enough to remember much of 1976. That said, in pictures the locomotives tended to look dirty, muddy, grimy; Not lighter green but blacker or dusty-looking. So the "greener" green isn't what I'd do for weathering of those units anyhow. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 14:07:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Loco window Sash color. List, Did the Pennsy always have the Loco Window Sash's painted Sash Color (red/orange) or was this color dropped sometime in the 1930's? The practice of having the Sash Color is stated in the Oct 1929 Paint Guide.The K4 at Strasburg I believe has the Sash Color and this loco is of Post War Look. Any confirmed answers??? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] ECW N&W class H2, H2a and H3 hoppers Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 14:29:29 -0500 Below is a response to my post reviewing the ECW class H2,H2a and H3 hopper from friend and author of the PRR Hopper Book - John Teichmoeller. John has consented to my forwarding his comments. Al ============================================= -----Original Message----- From: John Teichmoeller [mailto:rmighpr@erols.com] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 4:44 PM To: Al Buchan Subject: Re: ECW N&W class H2, H2a and H3 hoppers HI Al: Thanks for your review of this kit. I guess you can look at the car as a half empty or half full glass. Your comments came from the "half empty" point of view. I saw two versions of test shots of the car but have not seen the final kit, but as far as I'm concerned, it is definitely a "half full" situation.. I mentioned the problems with the top chord match and thickness to Gerry, but apparently he didn't make any more changes. I would agree with your characterization of the kit as being consistent with other ECW offerings; these are what I would call semi-craftsman kits, and you really do have to have some prototype photos and diagrams to guide you and forget about relying on any instructions. I assume purchasers of ECW kits recognize this and accept the consequences, but perhaps I make too many assumptions. Personally I'm glad Stewart did NOT do this one because it is a lot easier to add grabs and final details to a flat molded kit than to remove those cast-on things on the Stewart, Bowser and other RTR hoppers. I have the general arrangement drawing of the H2a but haven't compared the rivet pattern with it. The first set of test shots I got had no rivets on it at all. Note that rivets are cast into the slope sheets. As far as other details, I note that he tried to cast the sill steps very fine and probably went too far for the type of plastic he uses. Most operators end up replacing these with metal anyway. The brake gear, well, yes, we have a ways to go there before we match P2k utility. If one were assembling a bunch of these he would want to make a block of wood to assemble the body around since there is no keying of the parts. I so think there is plenty of space in the triangular spaces under the slope sheets for a paste of bird shot and white glue to bring the car up to probably two ounces which should be sufficient as it will be riding very low. I personnally am glad that he didn't compromise the rest of the body to provide for the flat steel weights along the slope sheets. Bird shot may be hard to get someplaces, but it sure is handy at weighting underbodies. Within the tolerances of my scale eye and General Models HO vernier calipers, the principal dimensions of the car scaled out correctly. I didn't know what kind of trucks he packed; the Stewart 70-ton ASF trucks appear correct for at least one of the (I think) three types used on the H2, H2a and H3. Eddy Piazza of Rail Classics, if, in fact he does this car, promises to have extra sets of the proper types of trucks available. A number of the injection-molded manufacturers over the last 7 years have apparently "dicked around" about doing this car; they were sent prototype info by a number of people including me but nobody did anything. Gerry apparently had some available die-making time this summer and produced this car in about three months. It will be interesting to see if the announced Life-Like P2000 WWII composite hopper car raises the bar by having actual wire grabs as the ads suggest. You know, back in 1948 a company called Railmaster had Eastern Car Works-style kits for several gons including a 65 foot mill gon and a composite and offet side hopper. I don't know if they ever did the hoppers, but these all were supposed to have wire grabs. I do know they did the mill gon because I bought one some years ago from Julian Barnard's estate sale and, painted and lettered it could pass for brass. And this was 1948! By the way, Gerry has also released a kit for the Dry-Flo covered hopper. This is basically a kitbash using the sides for his AirSlide (you have to cut and splice) plus new roof and underbody castings he did for the kit. Dimensions are right for this car, PRR class H41. Two kits in one season is pretty good. Now, if only someone would do the H35 and H36! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] X23 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 14:44:21 -0500 Sorry guys - the car shown on the web site below is NOT an X-23. The class X-23 had vertical sheathing and horizontal reinforcing ribs located between the vertical and diagonal ribs, absent on the photo. The X-23 also had much different reinforcement along the bottom chord of the car, absent on photo. See PRR Color Guide - Vol 2. page 109 for a real X-23. The car also looks too squatty to be an X-23. ================= > Sure looks like an X23 to me and it's on PRR trucks. Is my id correct? > I put a shot of it on my web site at: > http://prr.railfan.net/photos/PRR_499656_X23_side_RS_Elkhart_IN.JPG ================= Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:53:00 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco window Sash color. Gary asked: > Did the Pennsy always have the Loco Window Sash's painted Sash >Color (red/orange) or was this color dropped sometime in the 1930's? The >practice of having the Sash Color is stated in the Oct 1929 Paint >Guide.The K4 at Strasburg I believe has the Sash Color and this loco is >of Post War Look. Any confirmed answers??? Thanks, Gary Well...as with all things Pennsy, it depends. Most photographs I have seen indicate that this was dropped in the early '40s (wartime demands?) although some shop personell with spare time often had fun...for example on of the Harrisburg B-1s received the red sash treatment in the '50s... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:31:34 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] M class in Renovo? A while back Greg Stone asked for evidence of M-class locomotives on the Renovo Division. The following site has pictures of a wreck on the P&E at Garland, PA on 2/3/47, involving what appears to be M1 #6845 hauling a passenger train. There are a couple good top views, as it is on its side: http://www.tbscc.com/users/warren/Lawson.htm -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:43:06 -0500 From: "John Ryan, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Jim Lynch Unpublished Articles; BofD Meeting Originally from Chuck Blardone to PRR-Fax Gentlemen: I've two messages. The first I offer as Editor of the PRRT&HS: In response to Ben Anthony's question, Jim Lynch completed a a major article on the Pittsburgh Division, and I have it in hand, with appropriate photographs. I haven't published it yet for two reasons: (1) We did two "Special Publications" on Pittsburgh recently, and I didn't want to sandbag the subject. (2) I was also hoping that passage of time would provide an answer to a vexing problem. Tom Olsen did a marvelous job in rewriting and greatly expanding Jim's Panhandle Division article, which wound so long that I had to serialize it. Although Jim knew at the time (and agreed to the fact) that Tom was rewriting the Panhandle, he (uncharacteristically) objected to the final result, and declined any other rewriting of his efforts. I thought the collaboration produced a marvellous job, so I sat on the Pittsburgh Division article, hoping to convince Jim to change his mind and Tom to agree to redo the Pittsburgh. (Unfortunately) one problem is no more, but Tom has a life of his own and cannot devote the time for the rewrite. We'll see what the future brings. I've also several smaller articles authored by Jim, and I'll be massaging and publishiing them over the next year or two. The second issue I offer as a personal view, not as an Editor or Director: As a follow-up to Al Buchan's request for issues to be addressed at the Nov.11th Board Meeting, the most important issue on the agenda will be (continues to be) how to manage the reconstructed Station and Archive at Lewistown. I have very firm opinions concerning the entire affair...purchase, rebuilding, wrestling with the Archives. I've resisted getting involved over the years. I didn't have a majority interest view, so, like the Borg, "Resistance was futile!" I figured I'd stick to handling "The Keystone." and concentrate on giving members their best value for their money, regardless of the rise or fall of Lewistown. Without getting into details, the Board is considering donating the Archive materials to the State Museum at Strasburg (assuming the Museum will assume ownership), and selling (or otherwise "disposing of") the Station at Lewistown. I've been told that the Hagley is not interested in our Archive collection, but I've not verified this...Chris, is this true? This possible action should spur those who do not wish the curtain to fall on Lewistown to band together and come up with a workable solution to be considered by the Board...and that means personal involvement, big time. I know that several fellows out there have volunteered their time, but at present, this is a group without a leader. New blood is necessary to carry this off, if you want it to happen. I suggest that you express your opinion on the subject to Society President Dick Adams. Please be practical, and concentrate on where we are, not how we got there. His e-mail address is on page 2 of "The Keystone." It's: dadams@pinestreet.org We cannot manage Lewistown with present manpower resources. Members are not receiving any benefit from their $5 dues surcharge. What to do? I apologize to Bill Stassner for addressing PRRT&HS politics, but this is basic policy, and the Board cannot represent the interests of its members without input (realism, and proposals for correcting problems, not plain bitching). Chuck Blardone -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eGroups eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/17/_/586931/_/972926473/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 17:59:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X23 In a message dated 10/30/00 8:38:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, steelfan@ohio.net writes: << Thanks to Dick Ross for sending me the museum's contact information. I'll give them a call and make arrangements to take the photos. >> The Museum people asked me if there was any way to trace the car's "in sevice" road # from the MOW # - Anyone know if this is possible? Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Pennsy Loco Number Plaques Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:07:14 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: Kempinski, Bernard To: Kempinski, Bernard ; 'David (Fresh) Freshwater' ; 'Bill Rutherford' ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 5:51 PM Subject: Pennsy Loco Number Plaques > Fellow SPFs; > > At Mark Franke's request I have etched a set of N Scale Pennsy Locomotive > number boards. The fret contains 90 Keystone and 90 Circular Locomotive > Number Plaques. The neat thing about these is that the plaques have the > numbers etched in. The numbers were executed using a custom drawn font based > on actual Pennsy prototype examples. The numbers represent a wide variety of > Pennsy loco classes. With 180 numbers to choose from, there should be some > that apply to locos that you wish to adorn. The circular plates could be > used for other railroads too. > > To paint these is trivial. Spray paint the whole sheet with the appropriate > color red (It looks brighter than Tuscan). Let them dry overnight. Then with > a 600 sand paper, lightly sand the tops. The outline and the numbers will be > clearly visible. Fast and easy. > > I have a limited number of these. The price is $15.99 for a sheet. I'll be > updating my web site next week when I get back to Va. In the meantime, > please pass the word to other SPFs. > > BCK > Alkem Scale Models > http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/8552/pages/ASM.html > > PS The HO scale corn, N Scale catwalks and N Scale conveyor systems are in > and will be shipping in two weeks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:59:19 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power books Hi... Anyone looking both the first two Pennsy Power books should check here on E-bay.... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=475182993 Til Later Hank Mummert I'll be glad when three comes out again ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] Jim Lynch Unpublished Articles; BofD Meeting Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:45:43 -0800 Hi folks, Firstly, there is no such thing as "too much on Pittsburgh". Except for the PRRT&HS special publications, there has been a paucity of work on the PRR in Pittsburgh over the years, especially given the volume of PRR traffic, and particularly in published photography. I think we would all welcome Jim's unedited (not pared down) work, as so many of the past works have been so valuable. Second, few members of PRRT&HS are aware of the decisions being made now in regards to Lewistown and the collection. I think that, in general, people might be less concerned as to what happens to the station as to what happens to the collection, particularly those that contributed to it or participated in storage, maintenance, etc. over the years. People should be concerned that this is playing out rapidly with little member input, and would probably be gratified to know whether or not their contributions (monetary and otherwise) over the years to the Lewistown project would be still an asset to the Society, whether by sale of the structure or whatever. I think a primary concern that people will have will be that the collection be archived, catalogued, and provided as a resource for all to examine, read, and copy materials. This has not been the case for these recent years at Lewistown, and I would expect that folks would be happy to see this resolved. It has been a concern to all that we have not been able to find a responsible librarian to serve the Society, and therefore make Lewistown a viable asset. I would be very interested to see what other members think of these latest events. And thanks for making this info available to those of us that can't attend. Elden Gatwood 5797 -----Original Message----- From: John Ryan, Jr. [mailto:RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 12:43 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Jim Lynch Unpublished Articles; BofD Meeting Originally from Chuck Blardone to PRR-Fax Gentlemen: I've two messages. The first I offer as Editor of the PRRT&HS: In response to Ben Anthony's question, Jim Lynch completed a a major article on the Pittsburgh Division, and I have it in hand, with appropriate photographs. I haven't published it yet for two reasons: (1) We did two "Special Publications" on Pittsburgh recently, and I didn't want to sandbag the subject. (2) I was also hoping that passage of time would provide an answer to a vexing problem. Tom Olsen did a marvelous job in rewriting and greatly expanding Jim's Panhandle Division article, which wound so long that I had to serialize it. Although Jim knew at the time (and agreed to the fact) that Tom was rewriting the Panhandle, he (uncharacteristically) objected to the final result, and declined any other rewriting of his efforts. I thought the collaboration produced a marvellous job, so I sat on the Pittsburgh Division article, hoping to convince Jim to change his mind and Tom to agree to redo the Pittsburgh. (Unfortunately) one problem is no more, but Tom has a life of his own and cannot devote the time for the rewrite. We'll see what the future brings. I've also several smaller articles authored by Jim, and I'll be massaging and publishiing them over the next year or two. The second issue I offer as a personal view, not as an Editor or Director: As a follow-up to Al Buchan's request for issues to be addressed at the Nov.11th Board Meeting, the most important issue on the agenda will be (continues to be) how to manage the reconstructed Station and Archive at Lewistown. I have very firm opinions concerning the entire affair...purchase, rebuilding, wrestling with the Archives. I've resisted getting involved over the years. I didn't have a majority interest view, so, like the Borg, "Resistance was futile!" I figured I'd stick to handling "The Keystone." and concentrate on giving members their best value for their money, regardless of the rise or fall of Lewistown. Without getting into details, the Board is considering donating the Archive materials to the State Museum at Strasburg (assuming the Museum will assume ownership), and selling (or otherwise "disposing of") the Station at Lewistown. I've been told that the Hagley is not interested in our Archive collection, but I've not verified this...Chris, is this true? This possible action should spur those who do not wish the curtain to fall on Lewistown to band together and come up with a workable solution to be considered by the Board...and that means personal involvement, big time. I know that several fellows out there have volunteered their time, but at present, this is a group without a leader. New blood is necessary to carry this off, if you want it to happen. I suggest that you express your opinion on the subject to Society President Dick Adams. Please be practical, and concentrate on where we are, not how we got there. His e-mail address is on page 2 of "The Keystone." It's: dadams@pinestreet.org We cannot manage Lewistown with present manpower resources. Members are not receiving any benefit from their $5 dues surcharge. What to do? I apologize to Bill Stassner for addressing PRRT&HS politics, but this is basic policy, and the Board cannot represent the interests of its members without input (realism, and proposals for correcting problems, not plain bitching). Chuck Blardone -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eGroups eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/17/_/586931/_/972926473/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power books Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 20:57:00 EST I talked to Al, Last week Pennsy Power 3 will be out in about 3 weeks. Sam Vastano >From: bubbles@visi.net >To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power books >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:59:19 -0500 (EST) > > Hi... > > Anyone looking both the first two Pennsy Power books > should check here on E-bay.... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=475182993 > > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > I'll be glad when three comes out again > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRSL Items for sale Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:27:21 -0500 Gentleman, I am making this one time offer to purchase copies of some very rare original PRLS documents that I have acquired over this past year for substantially LESS then I paid for them. I had to pay dearly for them as they were all purchased from a very well known Ebay PRR seller who likes to post his ads in all caps. If you are in the cc, you probably have bid against me for some of them. I have broken that into 2 lots. PRSL book - Block Stations and Interlockings For the system corrected to 1-3-1973.While it is dated 1974, many drawings are updated with some referencing dates back to 10-12-06. The link shows the cover and a portion of Winslow Junction. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/prslbook.jpg Your copy will be bound with a black plastic "finger" binding. It folds down to be 8 1/2" x 17". Delivery will be approximately 2 weeks after all of the orders are received. The following is an edited copy of the Ebay ad. THIS BOOK WHICH IS STAMPED OFFICE COPY IS AN ORIGINAL PRSL BOOK, NOT A COPY. BOOK IS LARGE FORMAT AND GOES INTO DETAIL ABOUT EVERY INTERLOCKING ON THE PRSL NETWORK. I PHOTOGRAPHED ONE AS A SAMPLE ( ALTHOUGH ITS HARD TO READ IN THE PHOTO), THIS IS THE LINE INTO WILDWOOD SHOWING GRASSY SOUND BRIDGE. BOOK HAS " ATLANTIC INTERLOCKING " IN ATLANTIC CITY SHOWING ATLANTIC MOVEABLE BRIDGE, ATLANTIC CITY STATION, ATLANTIC TOWER, PLEASANTVILLE SECONDARY TRACK, WINSLOW INTERLOCKING SHOWING THE COMLEXT TRACKAGE WHICH INCLUDES THE CRR OF NEW JERSEY ( CNJ ) THE OLD WINDLOW JUNCTION STATION AND TOWER, ANCHOR INTERLOCKING, THE MAIN LINE, AND BRANCH LINES HEADING TO TUCKAHOE, "KIRK" INTERLOCKING " BISHOP" INTERLOCKING, TUCKAHOE INTERLOCKING SHOWING TUCKAHOE TOWER AND THE BRANCH TO OCEAN CITY AND CAPE MAY , IT IEVEN GIVES YOU THE ALLOWABLE SPEEDS SUCH AS WINDLOW JCT TO TUCKAHOE PASSENGER 70 MPH FREIGHT 50 MPH TUCKAHOE TO CROOK HORN MOVABLE BRIDGE ( OCEAN CITY ) 50 PASSENGER 30 FREIGHT , WOODBURY INTERLOCKING ON THE MILLVILLE BRANCH SHOWING THE LINE TO PENNSGROVE AND TO SALEM, B"BROWN" INTERLOCKING IN CAMDEN , CAPE MAY BRANCH "CANAL" MOVABLE BRIDGE INTERLOCKING ( IT EVEN TELLS YOU THAT THE CANAL BRIDGE MAKES ONE QUARTER TURN POWER OPERATED, SMASHBOARDS ARE TYPE T-2 , ETC, GRASSY SOUND MOVABLE BRIDGE, WEST WILDWOOD BLOCK STATION, " WILDWOOD JUNCTION " SHOWING THE WYE AND DETAILS, BRIDGEPORT (RACOON CREEK MOVABLE BRIDGE ON THE PENNSGROVE BRANCH, MANTUA CREEK MOVABLE BRIDGE IN THE PENNS GROVE BRANCH IN PAULSBORO NEW JEREY , THE CRR OF NY ( CNJ) CROSSING AT " LANDIS " IN VINELAND NEW JERSEY , " COHAN " CROSSING INTERCHANGE WITH THE CNJ IN BRIDGETWON, NEW JERSEY, "GATE" INTERLOCKING OFF THE MAIN LINE TO ATLANTIC CITY RACE TRACK , " HAM " INTERLOCKING IN HAMMONTON, "EGG " BLOCK STATION IN EGG HARBOR NEW JERSEY AND SO MUCH MORE DETAIL IT WOULD TAKE AN HOUR TO LIST IT ALL. ALL THE INTERLOCKING TOWERS AND JUNCTION ARE HERE FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT. THIS IS THE ONLY ONE I HAVE, NO MORE AFTER THIS. IF YOU HAVE AN INTEREST IN SOUTH JERSEY RAILROADS, THE PENNSYLVANIA OR THE READING OR THE JERSEY CENTRAL, THIS BOOK IS A MUST. BOOK CAME OUT OF PRSL OFFICE CAMDEN, NEW JERSEY Track Charts- I have 4 track charts corrected to1-1-53 that completes the system from Camden to Cape may and Wildwood. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/trackchart.jpg There were other branches on the line, but I did not get those charts. Pricing Interlocking Book I only have one price so far for reproducing the book. It is very labor intensive because the sizes are 81/2 x 17",20", and 32". My current cost estimate is $30.00 plus shipping. I am hoping to reduce with a better reproduction price. Track Charts This should not be more then $15.00. I have to find a copy center that can reverse the white line on blue background to black line. PLEASE do not reply unless you are serious about purchasing copies. Again, this is a one-time venture to recoup some of my Ebay expenses. I may be requesting a $10.00 deposit for the book. Please reply with your name, shipping address and phone number to billlane@snip.net My mailing address for this project is: Bill Lane Jr. P.O. Box 5252 Deptford NJ 08096 856-848-5133 Thank You Bill Lane ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] X23 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 19:18:34 -0800 Al Buchan wrote: Sorry guys - the car shown on the web site below is NOT an X-23. The class X-23 had vertical sheathing and horizontal reinforcing ribs located between the vertical and diagonal ribs, absent on the photo. The X-23 also had much different reinforcement along the bottom chord of the car, absent on photo. See PRR Color Guide - Vol 2. page 109 for a real X-23. The car also looks too squatty to be an X-23. Al, refer to my previous post: The car in question is definitely an X23. The original steel truss design proved to be overbuilt like many other early steel and composite boxcars; as a result, some cars resheathed late in their service lives had the horizontal truss members removed and horizontal sheathing applied (pictures or a rebuilt car exist in Richard Burg's collection and were included in Gary Rauch's clinic on PRR boxcars at San Jose). You'll see the same sheathing and truss pattern on Class X23A coke cars, Class X23B round roof rebuilds, and some Class NX23 cabin cars. The spotting features that give it away are the pressed steel truss members, the remaining horizontal truss members at each end of the car, and the left opening door. Not all cars were rebuilt to this configuration, so you'll see the cars as built lasting into MOW service. As for the "squatty" issue, the X23 was a very low car, with an IH of only 8 ft, so it will even look short sitting by an X29. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] RE: X23 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 19:21:21 -0800 By the way, the ends are also consistent with those on Class X23. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 00:24:03 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Hello All.... On 10-30-00 Elden Gatwood wrote Hi folks, Firstly, there is no such thing as "too much on Pittsburgh". Except for the PRRT&HS special publications, there has been a paucity of work on the PRR in Pittsburgh over the years, especially given the volume of PRR traffic, and particularly in published photography. I think we would all welcome Jim's unedited (not pared down) work, as so many of the past works have been so valuable. Second, few members of PRRT&HS are aware of the decisions being made now in regards to Lewistown and the collection. I think that, in general, people might be less concerned as to what happens to the station as to what happens to the collection, particularly those that contributed to it or participated in storage, maintenance, etc. over the years. People should be concerned that this is playing out rapidly with little member input, and would probably be gratified to know whether or not their contributions (monetary and otherwise) over the years to the Lewistown project would be still an asset to the Society, whether by sale of the structure or whatever. I think a primary concern that people will have will be that the collection be archived, catalogued, and provided as a resource for all to examine, read, and copy materials. This has not been the case for these recent years at Lewistown, and I would expect that folks would be happy to see this resolved. It has been a concern to all that we have not been able to find a responsible librarian to serve the Society, and therefore make Lewistown a viable asset. I would be very interested to see what other members think of these latest events. And thanks for making this info available to those of us that can't attend. Elden Gatwood 5797 I myself,while only a NC chapter member would second this.While i'd like to see the Lewistown station saved for future PRRT&HS use,the archives are irreplaceable if lost,and almost useless if not properly sorted,cataloged and taken care of. While we as PRR fans are luckier than fans of other rail lines in what we have that is saved,have lost too much already. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 06:22:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRRH&TS From: Jerry Britton On 10/30/00 11:35 PM, John F. Ryan, Jr. at (RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > I have been a little disturbed to read that the PRRT&HS is considering > selling it's archives and the Lewistown station. I hope this isn't > true; but if it is, I hope that considerable thought is given to > alternative possibilities before a decision is made. > > I would hope that the membership would be given a chance for input > before such a decision is made. If the archives are sold, I would hope > that PRRT&HS members would be given some sort of preferential access. > > If the comments about a sale are true, if would seem that the archive > problems are significantly more severe that we have been led to believe. > > I hope we can reach a decision that allows all of us access to these > materials. > Dick: I'm not sure how much of the above is true and how much is rumor mill, but it is certainly getting around fast on the Internet. If there is some urgent need to dispose of the station and/or archives, I urge you to call a special meeting of the membership to be present for discussion/vote. Though the by-laws may allow the directors to make such a decision on their own, I fear that a decision by the directors alone would mark the beginning of the end of our great society. If such a meeting were to be called, I would suggest a Saturday afternoon meeting somewhere in Lewistown. Notice of such meeting should be a first-class mailer to all members mailed to arrive at least four weeks prior to such meeting. Please, don't dispose of these assets without membership involvement! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:27:21 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRSL Items for sale Gentleman, I am making this one time offer to purchase copies of some very rare original PRLS documents that I have acquired over this past year for substantially LESS then I paid for them. I had to pay dearly for them as they were all purchased from a very well known Ebay PRR seller who likes to post his ads in all caps. If you are in the cc, you probably have bid against me for some of them. I have broken that into 2 lots. PRSL book - Block Stations and Interlockings For the system corrected to 1-3-1973.While it is dated 1974, many drawings are updated with some referencing dates back to 10-12-06. The link shows the cover and a portion of Winslow Junction. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/prslbook.jpg Your copy will be bound with a black plastic "finger" binding. It folds down to be 8 1/2" x 17". Delivery will be approximately 2 weeks after all of the orders are received. The following is an edited copy of the Ebay ad. THIS BOOK WHICH IS STAMPED OFFICE COPY IS AN ORIGINAL PRSL BOOK, NOT A COPY. BOOK IS LARGE FORMAT AND GOES INTO DETAIL ABOUT EVERY INTERLOCKING ON THE PRSL NETWORK. I PHOTOGRAPHED ONE AS A SAMPLE ( ALTHOUGH ITS HARD TO READ IN THE PHOTO), THIS IS THE LINE INTO WILDWOOD SHOWING GRASSY SOUND BRIDGE. BOOK HAS " ATLANTIC INTERLOCKING " IN ATLANTIC CITY SHOWING ATLANTIC MOVEABLE BRIDGE, ATLANTIC CITY STATION, ATLANTIC TOWER, PLEASANTVILLE SECONDARY TRACK, WINSLOW INTERLOCKING SHOWING THE COMLEXT TRACKAGE WHICH INCLUDES THE CRR OF NEW JERSEY ( CNJ ) THE OLD WINDLOW JUNCTION STATION AND TOWER, ANCHOR INTERLOCKING, THE MAIN LINE, AND BRANCH LINES HEADING TO TUCKAHOE, "KIRK" INTERLOCKING " BISHOP" INTERLOCKING, TUCKAHOE INTERLOCKING SHOWING TUCKAHOE TOWER AND THE BRANCH TO OCEAN CITY AND CAPE MAY , IT IEVEN GIVES YOU THE ALLOWABLE SPEEDS SUCH AS WINDLOW JCT TO TUCKAHOE PASSENGER 70 MPH FREIGHT 50 MPH TUCKAHOE TO CROOK HORN MOVABLE BRIDGE ( OCEAN CITY ) 50 PASSENGER 30 FREIGHT , WOODBURY INTERLOCKING ON THE MILLVILLE BRANCH SHOWING THE LINE TO PENNSGROVE AND TO SALEM, B"BROWN" INTERLOCKING IN CAMDEN , CAPE MAY BRANCH "CANAL" MOVABLE BRIDGE INTERLOCKING ( IT EVEN TELLS YOU THAT THE CANAL BRIDGE MAKES ONE QUARTER TURN POWER OPERATED, SMASHBOARDS ARE TYPE T-2 , ETC, GRASSY SOUND MOVABLE BRIDGE, WEST WILDWOOD BLOCK STATION, " WILDWOOD JUNCTION " SHOWING THE WYE AND DETAILS, BRIDGEPORT (RACOON CREEK MOVABLE BRIDGE ON THE PENNSGROVE BRANCH, MANTUA CREEK MOVABLE BRIDGE IN THE PENNS GROVE BRANCH IN PAULSBORO NEW JEREY , THE CRR OF NY ( CNJ) CROSSING AT " LANDIS " IN VINELAND NEW JERSEY , " COHAN " CROSSING INTERCHANGE WITH THE CNJ IN BRIDGETWON, NEW JERSEY, "GATE" INTERLOCKING OFF THE MAIN LINE TO ATLANTIC CITY RACE TRACK , " HAM " INTERLOCKING IN HAMMONTON, "EGG " BLOCK STATION IN EGG HARBOR NEW JERSEY AND SO MUCH MORE DETAIL IT WOULD TAKE AN HOUR TO LIST IT ALL. ALL THE INTERLOCKING TOWERS AND JUNCTION ARE HERE FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT. THIS IS THE ONLY ONE I HAVE, NO MORE AFTER THIS. IF YOU HAVE AN INTEREST IN SOUTH JERSEY RAILROADS, THE PENNSYLVANIA OR THE READING OR THE JERSEY CENTRAL, THIS BOOK IS A MUST. BOOK CAME OUT OF PRSL OFFICE CAMDEN, NEW JERSEY Track Charts- I have 4 track charts corrected to1-1-53 that completes the system from Camden to Cape may and Wildwood. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/trackchart.jpg There were other branches on the line, but I did not get those charts. Pricing Interlocking Book I only have one price so far for reproducing the book. It is very labor intensive because the sizes are 81/2 x 17",20", and 32". My current cost estimate is $30.00 plus shipping. I am hoping to reduce with a better reproduction price. Track Charts This should not be more then $15.00. I have to find a copy center that can reverse the white line on blue background to black line. PLEASE do not reply unless you are serious about purchasing copies. Again, this is a one-time venture to recoup some of my Ebay expenses. I may be requesting a $10.00 deposit for the book. Please reply with your name, shipping address and phone number to billlane@snip.net My mailing address for this project is: Bill Lane Jr. P.O. Box 5252 Deptford NJ 08096 856-848-5133 Thank You Bill Lane -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/17/_/586931/_/972995501/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 07:04:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Info on G26 and G26a Gentleman, I am in need of any information that you may have on G26 and G26a gondolas for an upcoming brass model project. I have a few builders photos and 1 General Arrangement drawing. However, I need more, especially end details. Does anyone know if there is still a G26 surviving? Do you have a photo of a G26 in Shadow Keystone? Any information that you have would be most appreciated. You will be compensated for your efforts. Thank You Bill Lane -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eGroups eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/17/_/586931/_/972995777/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 04:57:18 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Re: PRRH&TS --- Jerry Britton wrote: > On 10/30/00 11:35 PM, John F. Ryan, Jr. at > (RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net) > wrote: > > > I have been a little disturbed to read that the > PRRT&HS is considering > > selling it's archives and the Lewistown station. I think Blardone's original post said something like: _donate_ the archives to the State Museum, with something to the effect of "if they will have them". _sell_ or otherwise dispose of the station Not that that makes the matter less severe, but let's get the facks straight. > If there is some urgent need to dispose of the > station and/or archives, I didn't sense any urgency in the Blardone post, rather the feeling that "after all these years, things haven't progressed, it's time to do something different." Again, doesn't alter the situation, but let's keep the facks straight. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRRH&TS Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 08:10:03 -0500 I concur with Jerry. If Jerry's comment is a parlimentary "move", consider this a "second" to it. Lew Matt PRRT&HS #6107 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: John F. Ryan, Jr. ; dadams@pinestreet.org ; PRR-Talk ; Walt Keely Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 6:26 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRRH&TS >On 10/30/00 11:35 PM, John F. Ryan, Jr. at (RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net) >wrote: > >> I have been a little disturbed to read that the PRRT&HS is considering >> selling it's archives and the Lewistown station I >urge you to call a special meeting of the membership to be present for >discussion/vote. Though the by-laws may allow the directors to make such a >decision on their own, I fear that a decision by the directors alone would >mark the beginning of the end of our great society. > >If such a meeting were to be called, I would suggest a Saturday afternoon >meeting somewhere in Lewistown. Notice of such meeting should be a >first-class mailer to all members mailed to arrive at least four weeks prior >to such meeting. > >Please, don't dispose of these assets without membership involvement! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power books Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:12:16 EST Alvin Staupher, I don't have his address here at work But if you want it I can sent it to you when I get home. Sam >From: "Mark Franke" >To: "Sam Vastano" >Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power books >Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 09:16:43 -0500 > >Sam Who is the publisher >Thanks >Mark Franke >----- Original Message ----- >From: Sam Vastano >To: ; >Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 8:57 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power books > > > > I talked to Al, Last week Pennsy Power 3 will be out in about 3 weeks. > > > > > > Sam Vastano > > > > > > >From: bubbles@visi.net > > >To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > > >Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power books > > >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:59:19 -0500 (EST) > > > > > > Hi... > > > > > > Anyone looking both the first two Pennsy Power books > > > should check here on E-bay.... > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=475182993 > > > > > > > > > Til Later > > > Hank Mummert > > > > > > I'll be glad when three comes out again > > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > >"listserv@dsop.com". > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: X23 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:39:54 -0500 Ben, Thanx for your comments. I understand what you are saying regarding the rebuilds and don't disagree with that. I went back to the website photo and reinspected it and found some remaining key structural elements of the class X-23 which in haste I missed the first time. To wit - remaining horizontal ribs, rivet holes where previous horizontal ribs had been located. My initial reactions were based on sheathing and structural side modifications being made to a plain boxcar w/o any other modifications which didn't track w/ typical PRR modifications into other classes and uses. I believe you are correct Ben and I apologize for making a hasty and incorrect post. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: X23 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 12:08:49 -0500 I added some additional photos of the car on the X23 page on my web site. Hopefully they'll help confirm that the car is indeed an X23... See http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X23 The links are at the bottom of the page. I also added a document from the PA state archives that details the cost of the X23's built by ACF in 1913. It's interesting to see how modifications in the cars costing a few cents per car were detailed! It's at http://prr.railfan.net/freight/ACF_X23_1913_costs.html Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 11:40 AM > To: Benjamin Frank Hom; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] RE: X23 > > > Ben, > > Thanx for your comments. I understand what you are saying regarding the > rebuilds and don't disagree with that. I went back to the website > photo and > reinspected it and found some remaining key structural elements > of the class > X-23 which in haste I missed the first time. To wit - remaining horizontal > ribs, rivet holes where previous horizontal ribs had been located. My > initial reactions were based on sheathing and structural side > modifications > being made to a plain boxcar w/o any other modifications which > didn't track > w/ typical PRR modifications into other classes and uses. > I believe you are correct Ben and I apologize for making a hasty and > incorrect post. > > Al > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:41:12 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRRH&TS I'm playing catch up. Keeping control and organizing this collection will be a major task, a full time job for more than one person. Unless that someone steps forward, a partnership with a museum or archieve may be the best way to go. If we were serious about the former, it'd be good to get the input of Chris Baer down at the Hagley Museum in Wilmington and have some people begin attending grant writing seminars. The membership cannot and should not be expected to bear the full cost. This is beginning to sound like clear signs of organizational burn out resulting from not planning for growth, recruitment and change. I'd be willing to attend if I can get a ride. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:25:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRRH&TS --part1_6a.8003832.273092dd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I for one would welcome some deep pockets taking over the job. With roughly 5000 members if you paid someone $20,000 a year it would increase dues by $4.00 per year without additional funding to store, colate, etc.. There is nothing wrong with a COMPETENT museum with state or federal backing doing this as long as it is accesible to members. Any "gift" of the infromation would have to cover disposal of any items and membership access gauruntees. --part1_6a.8003832.273092dd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I for one would welcome some deep pockets taking over the job. With roughly
5000 members if you paid someone $20,000 a year it would increase dues by
$4.00 per year without additional funding to store, colate, etc.. There is
nothing wrong with a COMPETENT museum with state or federal backing doing
this as long as it is accesible to members. Any "gift" of the infromation
would have to cover disposal of any items and membership access gauruntees. --part1_6a.8003832.273092dd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:47:21 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRRH&TS NDBPRR@aol.com wrote:
I for one would welcome some deep pockets taking over the job. With roughly
5000 members if you paid someone $20,000 a year it would increase dues by
$4.00 per year without additional funding to store, colate, etc.. There is
nothing wrong with a COMPETENT museum with state or federal backing doing
this as long as it is accesible to members. Any "gift" of the infromation
would have to cover disposal of any items and membership access gauruntees.

Just to throw in my 2 cents, the National has closer to 3,000 members and we're not going to find a competent, knowledgeable full-time archivist (whose work would be beyond reproach) for anything less than $30-40,000 per year. That would put us closer to $10-13 per member. I would not want to see the archives moved out of Lewistown.
The best approach (IMHO) would be to apply for public/private grant and then see if membership dues would be needed after the grant was awarded.

Bill Morlitz
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:19:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] New PRR Book List, Just recieved my new copy of the Eric Hirsimaki's book Black Gold-Black Diamonds, The Pennsylvania Railroad and Dieselization Part 2. Not sure if it is in the stores yet or not. Filled with lots of fresh photos. This volume has more Early Diesel shots than volume 1, plenty of Steam too. This volume covers 1947 thru 1951 and other misc items. Havn't sat down to read it yet to see how informitive it is. I know some posts on this list and others didn't agree with some of the info that was written in the first volume. At least the pictures are nice. For anyone interested in PRR Hardware, there is a great photo on page 138 of K4s 5428. This paticular K4 had the Keystone Number Plate with double edgeing. I believe only this Keystone was cast this way.. Anyway, I think the book is worth picking up.....Gary PS: Eric states that he has hopes of making this a 5 volume series. All the way to 1968! Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: [PRR] Essential books? Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:39:27 -0800 What would members of the list consider the essential books the serious PRR fan should own? I'm fairly new at all this, and there are a LOT of books out there. I'm interested in the period 1940-1960 in particular, and from both a general historical standpoint and a modelling one. What books should I definitely own? What books should I avoid, also? -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:16:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? First the Stauffer books and then, for reference, Edson's "Keystone Steam & Electric" basically just a book of numbers, it lists every 20th Century Steam and Electric Locomotive by #; by Class and by builder's # An "ORER" might be nice too - the recent NMRA reprint of, I believe, a 1954 book is just Dandy. Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:41:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Essential books? Matt I would have to say of all the PRR books out there (and there are many !!) If I had to pick one it would be The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s by the late Don Ball Jr. published by Elm Tree Books. A must have ! ! ! Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] model pictures Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:21:56 -0500 Hi y'all, I have had lots of activities on my PRR model picture site since mentioning it the other day. It is at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=205020&a=1594599 I also have lots of pictures of my models of your other "favorite" railroad at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=205020&a=1594527 I am not what you should confuse as a PRR historian by any means. However, I have followed the PRR for many years, have lots of PRR books and models, and simply love to prepare models representing equipment of the PRR as well as several other railroads that I grew up with. I joined this list to share and to learn and sincerely appreciate the interaction that y'all have already provided. Thanks, Jim Six Madison Village, Ohio Visit my GROWING model railroad website at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=205020 Over 60,000 visitors and more than 1100 pictures and growing . . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:01:39 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Dissapointment in Cresline From: "William J. Ayers" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3055878100_439702_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results are in on the application for the historical listing of the Crestline roundhouse on the National Register of Historic Places. I received a copy of a letter from the Ohio Historical Society which reads in part: "After careful review the National Register staff has concluded that it does not meet the National Register requirements for historical integrity. ...we sent your questionaire out for peer review. Unfortunatly, our collective opinion is that there has been too much loss of the associated railroad elements that define this property type. I regret that this was not a more positive response. Although the roundhouse does not meet National Register integrity requirements, it is still an important historic property and is certainly worthy of continued preservation efforts." While this is a major setback in the preservation efforts, there is still a continued optimisim that it can be preserved. Sorry for the bad news. Bill Ayers --MS_Mac_OE_3055878100_439702_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dissapointment in Cresline The results are in on the application fo= r the historical listing of the Crestline roundhouse on the National Registe= r of Historic Places. I received a copy of a letter from the Ohio Historical= Society which reads in part:

"After careful review the National Register staff has concluded that i= t does not meet the National Register requirements for historical inte= grity. ...we sent your questionaire out for peer review. Unfortunatly,= our collective opinion is that there has been too much loss of the associat= ed railroad elements that define this property type.

I regret that this was not a more positive response. Although the roundhous= e does not meet National Register integrity requirements, it is still an imp= ortant historic property and is certainly worthy of continued preservation e= fforts."

While this is a major setback in the preservation efforts, there is still a= continued optimisim
that it can be preserved.

Sorry for the bad news.

Bill Ayers --MS_Mac_OE_3055878100_439702_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!