From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] RE Life Like Loco's Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:02:25 +1000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C013F3.58BF8120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Listers, I can still get the Life Like 0-8-0's here in Australia if anyone os = interested. Landed in the USA insured for US$150.00. Most roads are available still. Also I should be able to do a similar thing on the FA-1's, SD60's and = the new Gondolas. The SD60's are superb. My email address is as follows "prr" followed by "@" then "unite.com.au" Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C013F3.58BF8120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Listers,
 
I can still get the Life Like 0-8-0's = here in=20 Australia if anyone os interested. Landed in the USA insured for=20 US$150.00.
 
Most roads are available = still.
 
Also I should be able to do a similar = thing on the=20 FA-1's, SD60's and the new Gondolas.
 
The SD60's are superb.
 
My email address is as follows "prr" = followed by=20 "@" then "unite.com.au"
 
Graeme Nitz
PRRT&HS Member = #1313
An=20 Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak"
With a touch of=20 Reading.
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C013F3.58BF8120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:35:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Interlocking Diagrams -- Middle Division From: Jerry Britton Looking for online interlocking diagrams for VIEW, WORKS, ALTO, and SLOPE, in the Middle Division. Anyone know of any URL's? (I already checked Mark Bej's site. No luck.) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 11:18:06 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blure Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. DWSNRHS@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings to List; Thought you would like to know that the Borough of > Tyrone, Pennsylvania on the former PRR MAIN LINE Middle Division (at Jct of > ex-PRR Bald Eagle Branch) has a new Railroad (Transportation Center) Station > under construction. Although it does not resemble the prior 2 + 1/2 story > brick ediface (which should have been preserved and fell to the wrecker's > ball immediately after the Penn Central merger), the new passenger station > is, nonetheless, being constructed in the best example of PRR architecture. > > The new station is rectangular, with a striking hip roof design in Vermont > Green with verticle seams. The windows have definite PRR architectural > details and are painted in three colors: Hunter green , trimmed in tan, and > outlined in maroon (we'll say Tuscan Red). The exterior walls appear similar > to wainscoating from floor to roof in light cream. The west end of the > building has an extended platform canopy with an expansion on the extreme > west end. > > The east end of the building has a circular drive/turn around for vehicles. > The entire area is referred to locally at Railroad Park and has two cabooses > (actually, a Conrail Caboose and a PRR Cabin) across the street from the > station, as is a nicely designed oval gazebo with seasonal flowers planted > around the perimeter. > > Tyrone, although somewhat late, is restoring the former glory of their > passenger station area, replacing at long last, the bus stop open air shelter > that bears absolutely no resemblance to a railroad passenger facility. > > While the station boarding area is far from complete, the two single tracks > passing the site are a far cry from the 5 that dominated the area pre-1968. > It's still a great place to watch trains. Tyrone will, no doubt, continue to > be a flag stop, but, at long last, there is a suitable structure to garner > community pride and, perhaps, increase boardings at this location. That is, > if NS would let Amtrak operate on the ADVERTISED SCHEDULE. > Dave Seidel > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 07:55:01 -0700 Bennett Levin writes: > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blue > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. Didn't most passenger trains even fifty years ago carry mail and express freight? Amtrak hardly thought of the idea first. And from what I remember reading, even back then many passenger trains would not have turned a profit were it not for the mail and freight ... if Amtrak needs to do this for its trains to break even, then I say let them. Would you rather the train lost money and eventually was abandoned? As for being the fault of the government -- well, I see Amtrak trying to function as a business rather than a money-losing sucker of our hard-earned taxes. They're just dealing with the commercial realities of the situation, which are that it is hard to make money running passenger trains in modern America. Since the rules they operate under allow them to attach express freight to passenger trains, and such freight turns a nice profit, why should they walk away? Would you rather Amtrak lose money and be in a much more perilous state? -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 12:06:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION From: Jerry Britton On 9/1/00 10:55 AM, Matthew J. Brown (morven@byz.org) wrote: > Bennett Levin writes: >> Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling >> freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK >> trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blue >> Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not >> hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect >> examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. > > Didn't most passenger trains even fifty years ago carry mail and express > freight? Amtrak hardly thought of the idea first. > A big difference, however, is how the railroad views the action of dropping/adding cars. The PRR had switchers staged and ready to go the moment a train arrived. I've recently watched the Three Rivers at Harrisburg and it takes them 30-45 minutes to drop the last five cars off the train. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Interlocking Diagrams -- Middle Division Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:39:34 -0500 Rails Northeast, April 1978 has interlocking diagrams of ALTO, SLOPE, & WORKS. I can scan & email if you like. Andy -----Original Message----- Looking for online interlocking diagrams for VIEW, WORKS, ALTO, and SLOPE, in the Middle Division. Anyone know of any URL's? (I already checked Mark Bej's site. No luck.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:49:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Imports (OLD Query) In a message dated 3/2/2000 5:53:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, pgrace@aspects.net writes: > While the John Bull is the best known import by the Pennsy there was a later > import.. In the late 1890's a Webb compound was imported. It was a copy by > Bayer Peacock of a "Dreadnaught" class locomotive of the London & North > Western Railway. This arrangement instead of the LNWR works at Crewe because > British laws forbade railway works building locomotives for export. It was a > 2-4-0 tender locomotive, but as a result of the design it was effectively a 2- > 2-2-0 locomotive. It was possible to get the wheels spinning in opposite > directions! I believe it was numbered 1520. ( The information above comes > from a book called Railways at the Turn of the Century by O.S. Nock ). Does > any one else know anything about it. > What Patrick Grace made this query, I knew I had seen picture of the locomotive sometime in the prior year or so, but couldn't remember where: just putting away some accumulations from my pile system, and see p. 35 of the Spring 1999 issue of (Volume XXII, Number 3): caption reads as follows: "Engine 1520 (...) was a Webb compound built in Great Britain by Beyer, Peacock in 1888. Modified early by the PRR, it featured a single under-the-boiler cylinder driving the first driving axle and two exterior cylinders connected to the second. It never received a class letter and had a brief life. In Great Britain, too, these engines soon earned a dubious reputation for, among other things, needed a push to get a train into motion if the engine was stopped in a bad position of the valve gear. Unclassified (1 2-2-2 Webb compound engine) 2-14 and 1 30x24cyls 75"DR Beyer-Peacock, 1888 Karl E. Schlachter collection" I do not recall any other responses to this query; if there were, please forgive the repeat of the information. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 13:04:21 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Coils of steel hardly qualify as "express". Amtrak was not created to be a freight railroad and the Stab's politically motivated redefinition of Express is not only impacting the on time performance of AMTRAK's trains, but also freight railroad revenues. In all of AMTRAK's PR on their heightened earnings nowhere do they report their expenses. Recently one of the director's of AMTRAK's reform board resigned with a stinging indictment of there operation and the financial hocus-pocus and slight of hand financial tricks. Not a word of it in TRAINS or any other railfan press! Read what Mr. Vranich has to say. His letter of resignation is posted at http:/home.att.net/~JVranich/index/.html. My point is don't beat on NS for problems that AMTRAK has created for itself! I think if an objective evaluation of the full cost to provide express service was undertaken for the express business we would find out that it too looses money. I believe that not only do they loose money on their core a/k/a passenger business, but loose it on the so-called express business. What they claim is that they make it up in volume!!!!!! Where are the expenses allocated. All that AMTRAK releases to the press is their gross revenues. I would like AMTRAK to be honest in their accounting, fair in their business dealings, and a creditable railroad entity. If they cannot make it in their core business don't milk someone else's business at less than your costs in order to generate a gross revenue stream. Amtrak losses money and will continue to loose money. It was, is, and will continue to be a political boondoggle where those we elect can stash some patronage, appear to be progressive, and buy a few votes! If it is going to feed at the public trough, than the taxpayer's are entitled to a full measure of value for their participation. The taxpayers should not have to carry the burden unless there is some great purpose. I say privatize the viable portions of its charter and abandon the rest! The government did it with great success in the creation and privatization of the late lamented CONRAIL, why not AMTRAK? Read Vranich and reconsider you opinion. AMTRAK should not exist for you and I to photograph, to benefit a supply industry and its consultants, or to provide a nest of jobs. This is not to say that there are not a significant number of good, decent, and hard working employees at Amtrak. But they would survive in a real world organization. I guess the point really is why put the blame on NS!!!!!! "Matthew J. Brown" wrote: > > Bennett Levin writes: > > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blue > > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. > > Didn't most passenger trains even fifty years ago carry mail and express > freight? Amtrak hardly thought of the idea first. > > And from what I remember reading, even back then many passenger trains would > not have turned a profit were it not for the mail and freight ... if Amtrak > needs to do this for its trains to break even, then I say let them. Would > you rather the train lost money and eventually was abandoned? > > As for being the fault of the government -- well, I see Amtrak trying to > function as a business rather than a money-losing sucker of our hard-earned > taxes. They're just dealing with the commercial realities of the situation, > which are that it is hard to make money running passenger trains in modern > America. Since the rules they operate under allow them to attach express > freight to passenger trains, and such freight turns a nice profit, why > should they walk away? Would you rather Amtrak lose money and be in a much > more perilous state? > > -Matt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 13:09:30 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION FYI: Here is the full text of Vranich's letter to Sen Lott: "Derailed," a book about Amtrak, passenger trains, and public policy by Joseph Vranich St. Martin’s Press, New York SEE EXTENSIVE PRAISE FOR BOOK BELOW News Flash: Vranich Calls for Removal of Amtrak Board, Resigns from Amtrak Reform Council Because Amtrak Blocks ARC Work, Calls for Congressional Probe of Amtrak Practices The full text of Mr. Vranich’s resignation letter is printed below. Content about the book remains, but follows the letter. July 10, 2000 To: The Honorable Trent Lott, Majority Leader, U.S. Senate Dear Senator Lott: With regard to my service as a member of the Amtrak Reform Council (ARC), to which you appointed me, I have concluded with great regret that the ARC is unable to effectively fulfill the oversight role that Congress intended for it, and that there is no realistic prospect that it will be able to do so in the foreseeable future. Thus, I am resigning my position effective immediately. By separating from the ARC I can speak more freely. Most urgently, I urge Congress to take appropriate measures to dismiss the present members of the Amtrak "Reform Board of Directors." In this letter I will outline the board's negligence that warrants such action. I will also make the case that the Treasury Secretary should replace the Transportation Secretary as the federal government's ex-officio member on the Amtrak board. I also want to focus public attention on Amtrak's failure to bring modern, cost-effective rail passenger service to the United States. ARC'S MISSION The ARC was created by the Amtrak Reform and Accountability Act of 1997 (ARAA) to independently evaluate Amtrak's performance, make recommendations to Amtrak for cost containment and financial reforms, and recommend to Congress changes in the law that are believed to be necessary or appropriate. If the ARC finds that Amtrak isn't meeting its mandated goal of operating self-sufficiency by the end of fiscal year 2002 (i.e., after September 30, 2002), the ARC must submit within 90 days to Congress a plan for a restructured and rationalized inter-city rail passenger system. In that same period, Amtrak must prepare a plan for its complete liquidation. YOUR DIRECTION IN APPOINTING ME When you appointed me on February 24, 1998, you said, "The ARC will ensure that Amtrak spends the taxpayers' money wisely. The Council's first loyalty will be to the American taxpayer - not to the nostalgic sound of passenger trains going down the tracks." I responded in a letter, saying, "I assure you that I will take very seriously the trust that you have placed in me, and I'll work conscientiously to evaluate Amtrak's feasibility into the next millennium." For the following reasons, I am unable to fulfill that commitment. - AMTRAK's LACK OF COOPERATION WITH ARC: Amtrak has resisted the ARC, having failed to provide needed information. This has interfered with the ARC's ability to carry out its legal obligations to Congress. - "BACK DOOR" SUBSIDIES INCREASING: Taxpayer funding for Amtrak is increasing. It is being hidden in numerous non-Amtrak accounts, making it more difficult to determine just how much in public funds Amtrak actually is receiving. - AMTRAK DISGUISES LOSSES: Amtrak's operating losses are no longer fully transparent, that is, the financial performance and condition of certain Amtrak business units no longer are clearly reported and readily understandable. - SETTING THE STAGE FOR ANOTHER AMTRAK BAILOUT - THE BOND BILL: If Congress passes the so-called High Speed Rail Investment Act, it will set the stage for another Amtrak fiasco that will cost taxpayers billions of dollars. - COSTLY ACELA DELAYS AND QUESTIONABLE FUNDING: Amtrak is not forthcoming about the fiscal consequences of the serious delays that have occurred within its Acela high-speed Northeast Corridor program. It's time that Congress gave higher regard to warnings by the General Accounting Office (GAO) and Transportation Department Inspector General (IG) about Acela-related revenue shortfalls. Moreover, Congress should begin to look into previously undisclosed loans from Canada for the Acela. - ADDITIONAL POOR, COSTLY SERVICES ARE BEING PLANNED: Amtrak is not using a significant portion of capital subsidies for the kinds of high-priority, high-return investments that will help its bottom line. Amtrak is adding trains that are slower than those of many decades ago, including pork-barrel trains to the hometowns of Amtrak board members. I will now elaborate on each of these issues. AMTRAK's LACK OF COOPERATION WITH ARC Amtrak refuses to disclose information required by the ARC. Governor Tommy Thompson, Amtrak's board chairperson, assured me at a September 24, 1998, meeting that Amtrak would provide the ARC with what it needs to meet statutory obligations. Because Amtrak was claiming "success" with its freight program - but always citing only revenues, not costs - I asked in that meeting for cost information to determine the extent of freight’s contribution to Amtrak's bottom line. As of today, one year and 9 months later, the questions remain unanswered. Freight income/expenses is a major issue. Amtrak claims that carrying freight can make it a profitable operation, but has provided no substantiation of this to the ARC. Indeed, the ARC has urged a transparent accounting of Amtrak's freight revenues and expenses, but Amtrak has ignored its request. Yet, Amtrak spokespersons assert to the news media that the railroad's express program is making a "positive contribution" to the bottom line. If that's true, why cannot Amtrak respond to the ARC by supplying the requested balance sheet? Amtrak's action is indefensible, because the ARC has a statutory obligation to examine which Amtrak programs are succeeding or failing. For example, the new Kentucky Cardinal exists primarily to carry United Parcel Service (UPS) package freight from Louisville to Chicago. It's possible that this train is losing money, which would mean that public funds intended for passenger travel are subsidizing UPS. When rail advocates (and I was among them) worked to create Amtrak in 1970, none of us had any intention of creating a government subsidy for a private freight hauler. Also, Amtrak has denied the ARC access to information regarding labor productivity, failed to identify the revenue impact of delays in starting Acela high-speed service, and has not volunteered information about loans from Canada to help finance the Acela. While all are serious matters, failure to respond to labor productivity questions permits Congress to remain misinformed. Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, chair of the Surface Transportation subcommittee, said on November 7, 1997, that Amtrak assured her that the pay raises negotiated that year would be paid for by more efficient operations. It appears that no data can be found to substantiate the efficiency claims. "BACK DOOR" SUBSIDIES INCREASING No one really knows the full public cost of running Amtrak. No entity has yet quantified all of Amtrak's public costs for general scrutiny. Excluded from Amtrak's accounting system, annual reports, and congressional testimony are the costs of 10 public programs that help finance Amtrak or artificially lower Amtrak’s costs by shifting expenses to other agencies, as follows: - Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) funding benefits Amtrak through grants for train stations, historic building restorations, grade crossing improvements, high-speed rail studies, and technology development. - Federal Transit Administration (FTA) Grants - two examples are a grant of $18.7 million to Pennsylvania to purchase coaches for Amtrak and $3.5 million to Vermont to start a train to Rutland. FTA grants also help pay for improvements at Amtrak stations. - Other federal funds - some states like California rely on Congestion Mitigation & Air Quality funds to support Amtrak. - De facto federally guaranteed loans - in 1996, Amtrak borrowed $1 billion from an agency of the Canadian government, a sum that is still outstanding. Because it is unlikely that Congress will precipitate an international incident by allowing this loan to go into default, it will ultimately be repaid by U.S. taxpayers. - Special funding by states for cars, locomotives, track work, station construction - California and New York alone have each spent about $1 billion on Amtrak. - Federal job-training funds have benefitted Amtrak in several locations, such as a $500,000 grant to Amtrak to retain a reservations office in Philadelphia. - Local Government's Direct Subsidies: In California, counties purchased and are upgrading the Los Angeles-San Diego rail line, while Amtrak expects more local communities to build and maintain Amtrak stations across the country. - Local Bond Issues/Local Incentives: Amtrak benefits from bond issues and incentive packages to keep jobs in cities like Chicago. - Local Tax Exemptions: The ARAA exempted Amtrak from property taxes levied in Beech Grove, Indiana, where its major maintenance shop is located, and the community is losing about $5 million in tax revenue over a five-year period. - Internet-Style Tax Exemption - A controversy has developed about Internet merchants not paying certain state or local taxes, but it's little known that Amtrak enjoys the same benefit. According to the Congressional Budget Office, Amtrak passengers are exempted from "most state and local taxes, fees, and charges." Most of these funds and tax forgiveness measures are not reflected in Amtrak's books and are separated from the federal government's $24.1 billion in expenditures for Amtrak since its 1971 creation. AMTRAK DISGUISES LOSSES Amtrak repeatedly offers a glowing picture of its own' finances, yet for the first two quarters of this fiscal year, its operating loss grew from $248.8 million to $265.9 million, a $17.1 million increase. The deficit is growing at the same time that Amtrak is boasting of major ridership and revenue successes. Congress is failing to put Amtrak's financial affairs to a simple litmus test - do Amtrak's numbers fairly represent its condition to taxpayers? Unfortunately, the answer is "no," and Amtrak's financial hemorrhaging continues. Notably, the DOT Inspector General and the GAO have found that Amtrak is unlikely to meet a legal requirement of zero operating subsidies by the end of fiscal year 2002. If a "Ripley's Believe it or Not" existed for accountants, Amtrak would be featured. Consider the bogus methods now under way to make Amtrak’s books look better: - Amtrak now inflates income by counting many public subsidies as "revenue," something it hasn't done through most of its history. The amount last year from the states alone totaled $100 million. - Amtrak has lowered operating losses by shifting almost a half a billion dollars in maintenance costs to its capital account, according a GAO study. - Amtrak benefits from a unique taxpayer-sponsored bonanza. Although Amtrak has never paid a penny in income taxes, Congress ordered the IRS to give Amtrak a $2.2 billion "tax refund." Amtrak is using the funds in two ways - partly to repay a portion of its $1.6 billion in debt to the private capital markets and partly by investing the funds in high-yield, interest-bearing accounts. Thus, the "tax refund" - money Amtrak did not "earn" in the true business sense - is reducing Amtrak debt costs and increasing interest income, a balance-sheet sweetener that masks the extent of its poor financial condition. The GAO reported last month that Amtrak "has had, and continues to have, difficulty in controlling its costs" and that the railroad's' net losses have remained high - about $900 million in fiscal 1999. And the DOT IG reported last year an estimate that, over time, Amtrak will incur $695 million more in cash losses than Amtrak estimates. An airline using Amtrak's accounting methodologies would be slapped hard by the Securities and Exchange Commission, shareholders would be outraged, and the Chairman would be looking for a new job. SETTING THE STAGE FOR ANOTHER AMTRAK BAILOUT - THE BOND BILL No credible evidence exists that Amtrak will achieve its financial goals. Amtrak will need additional billions in subsidies to keep operating, as evidenced by the June GAO report, which states that Amtrak continues to have difficulty in controlling costs, and that interest costs are increasing as debt obligations grow. The new high-speed Acela service, which is touted to generate $125 million in annual profits, is again delayed on account of the Acela’s design deficiencies. Amtrak has launched a new effort to obtain $10 billion more in subsidies by arguing in favor of the High Speed Rail Investment Act (S. 1900 and H.R. 3700). The bill should be stopped dead in its tracks because it is deceptive in its promise to Americans and contains objectionable features. I say this because (1) the money will not necessarily go to build high-speed rail systems, (2) the costs will be higher than Amtrak claims, (3) taxpayers will be left liable for another Amtrak bailout, and (4) the bill establishes a conflict-of interest regarding the Secretary of Transportation. Taking these issues in order: (1) Amtrak's "re-definition" of what constitutes a “high-speed” train is a ploy to plow more funding into its conventional trains. As a long-standing advocate of high-speed trains, I believe this legislation ought to be called the "anti-high speed train bill." I say that because if enacted the result will be Amtrak "high-speed" trains for the Midwest, the South, and West Coast that in most cases will offer slower travel times than travelers found in the 1950s and earlier. Amtrak will also spend funds on routes that are so long (e.g., Washington, D.C. to Macon, Georgia) that there is no way – not now, not ever that even the fastest high-speed trains could compete with air travel. The bill is a step backward because it institutionalizes Amtrak's second-rate planning and inhibits development of the kind of fast corridor train service America needs. (2) The bill permits a future transfer of costs from Amtrak's books to obscure ledgers buried in the Treasury Department, thus freeing Amtrak to again issue inappropriate claims of financial "success." The bill authorizes Amtrak to sell $10 billion in bonds, with the government giving $2.3 billion in tax credits to bondholders in lieu of interest payments. But tax credits are indirect tax expenditures with a cost to the Treasury - the equivalent of spending. Another troublesome aspect is that the analysis of the bill's costs end with the year 2010, yet 20-year bonds are permissible. It's likely that as late as 2010 Amtrak could issue bonds that will expire in 2030. It's conservative to estimate that the tax-credit cost to the Treasury will be at least double the amount claimed by the bill's proponents. Thus, the bill creates additional subsidies of unknown proportions to Amtrak that will not be reflected in Amtrak's books. (3) It's been asserted that the proposal is sound because funding will be managed by an independent trustee and repayment assured by a guaranteed investment contract. But these measures are deceptive because they apply only to the 20 percent state share, not the 80 percent federal share. Thus, the preponderance of the funds would remain at risk. Does anyone really believe that Amtrak, which hasn't made a profit on a single train when all costs are considered, will pay off these bonds? The inescapable conclusion is that the bill sets the stage for another bailout of Amtrak. (4) The bill gives the Secretary of Transportation authority to prescribe regulations about how certain bond-related transactions are reported to the public even though the Secretary also sits on the Amtrak Board of Directors - an obvious conflict of interest. This is alarming because the current Secretary has demonstrated a gross lack of concern for fiscal integrity in order to help Amtrak (as will be explained later in the section entitled, "Permanently Remove Transportation Secretary from Board"). Amtrak will be unable to pay off bond principal and interest, with the result that Americans will be set up for still another multi-billion dollar Amtrak bailout in future years. Examine the record. Bailouts have happened before with Amtrak's government-guaranteed loans. In submissions to Congress and in annual reports, Amtrak fails to list funds received through guaranteed loans. Amtrak never repaid $880 million in loans received between 1971 and 1975, and that obligation, plus more than a quarter of a billion dollars in interest, were paid by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) on Amtrak's behalf. For evidence of this continuing Amtrak-inspired taxpayer obligation, we need to go back all the way to the 1983 Amtrak annual report to find this disclosure: "On September 30, 1983, Amtrak had borrowed under notes payable to the Federal Financing Bank up to its maximum Federal guaranteed loan authority of $880,000,000. On October 5, 1983, this obligation, plus $239,635,000 in accrued interest, was paid on Amtrak's behalf by the Federal Railroad Administration, and a new note in the amount of $1,119,635,000 was executed as of that date between Amtrak and the U.S. Government. The note matures on November 1, 2082, and will be renewed for successive 99-year terms. Interest is payable only in the event of prepayment or acceleration of the principal." It is commonly known that Congress since 1971 has appropriated more than $23 billion to Amtrak. But if this $1.1 billion is added (which is never done because it wasn't an "appropriation"), the federal government's expenditures and current obligations for Amtrak total at least $24.1 billion. Add operating and capital subsidies from states and it's possible to add at least another $1 billion for a total of at least $25 billion in public funding. Senator Lott, when is "enough" ever "enough" for Amtrak? With a record like that, Amtrak cannot justify passage of the so-called High Speed Rail Investment Act. - COSTLY ACELA DELAYS AND QUESTIONABLE FUNDING Amtrak has estimated that revenue will improve by about $125 million in fiscal years 2000 and 2001, due primarily to the introduction of the Acela high-speed trains in the Northeast. But the Acela program is seriously troubled, and determining the extent of the revenue shortfall is difficult. Amtrak tells the public that it will "make up" revenue deficiencies, but has been unable to convince the DOT IG or the GAO that such a feat is possible. Moreover, despite requests, Amtrak has failed to provide the ARC with updated revenue forecasts for the Acela. Questions now arise as to the degree to which Amtrak has disclosed Acela costs to these three federal oversight bodies. It now appears that Amtrak may have been unduly induced by an agency of the Canadian government to select Acela equipment manufactured by the Canadian-based Bombardier Corporation in preference to more proven technologies such as the X2000, a train which Amtrak had tested with great success in the early 1990s. According to an Ottawa Citizen story on March 18, 2000, "The federal Export Development Corp. (EDC) secretly loaned $1-billion to the deficit-plagued U.S. railroad agency Amtrak while the Chretien government sharply cut passenger rail funding in Canada. The money allowed the U.S. government-owned Amtrak to side-step a congressional cap on capital grants . . . The loan package has been a closely guarded secret. As of the end of 1998, the $1-billion was still owing. Officials from Bombardier and Amtrak declined to disclose details about the deal. Details of the EDC-Amtrak loans are not disclosed in EDC annual reports or financial statements . . ..” The secrecy only induces the sense that the Canadian government and Amtrak have something to hide. I urge that a complete Congressional investigation be undertaken to examine this transaction that potentially has handed U.S. taxpayers a $1 billion liability to the Canadian government - a liability that would still be secret were it not for an enterprising Canadian newspaper. For the record, to my knowledge, the ARC was never informed of a loan from the Canadian government, the uses to which it was put, principal amount owed, interest rate or other terms, repayment schedule, or its effect on Amtrak's financial condition. Nor is the ARC aware of what other secret loans Amtrak may have obtained from other foreign nations. Although I'm a 30-year proponent of high-speed trains, and I've testified before Congress many times for federal funding for the Acela, I remain unconvinced by Amtrak's explanations for the Acela’s many delays. When The Washington Post exposed Acela’s design flaws last year, Amtrak announced a "six-month delay" in service startup. For the record, as long ago as 1993, Amtrak promised that it would have the trains running by 1997. Said Amtrak on November 3, 1993 (news release number ATK-93-57): "Amtrak plans to award a contract by the middle of 1994 with the first trains being delivered two years later. The new trainsets will replace Amtrak's existing Metroliner fleet used on the Northeast Corridor. With completion of the New York-Boston improvement program in 1997, Amtrak plans to operate 16 high-speed Metroliner [since re-named Acela] service round-trips each business day between Boston, New York and Washington, with trip time between Boston and New York reduced to less than three hours." (Note: the latest Boston-New York travel time estimate is three hours and 15 minutes.) Hence, the record conclusively shows that Acela is three years behind schedule, and that its performance goals have been compromised. Amtrak has been developing the Acela for seven years, an absurdity compared with the four years other nations take to build new high-speed trains and start running them successfully. Amtrak should have simply purchased an Americanized version of off-the-shelf technology, like the Swedish-Swiss X2000, which would have been built in this country, and Amtrak could have had spectacular high-speed trains up and running several years ago. MORE POOR, COSTLY SERVICES PLANNED Prospects for improved Amtrak service in most of the nation are even gloomier. Amtrak's national expansion plans, supported by a so-called Market Based Network Analysis, is doomed to failure. The plan violates Amtrak's legal requirement to run modern rail passenger service. Amtrak will add embarrassingly slow trains that won't serve vital markets. Amtrak is simply stuffing more pork-barrel trains through as many Congressional districts as possible to the detriment of areas that really need better train service. For evidence, simply compare Amtrak timetables with train schedules from decades ago. For example, the Amtrak's new Kentucky Cardinal is inferior to the equivalent service provided by the Pennsylvania Railroad even 70 years ago. Amtrak's 12-hour Chicago-Jeffersonville, Ind., (near Louisville) schedule is three hours longer than it took our great-grandparents to ride a 1926 "milk run" on the same route, which was pulled by a steam locomotive and served nearly every village along the way. This is why I have called this Amtrak train - one of the slowest in the world - a "Conestoga Wagon With Lights." This train is driven by Amtrak's desire to carry UPS parcel freight, and the passenger accommodations are but a fig leaf to provide Amtrak with legal cover behind which it expands freight operations. Expect more such nonsense. Amtrak is financing highly questionable new trains in Governor Thompson's home state. On April 15, Amtrak began a new passenger train between Chicago and Janesville, Wisconsin, the Lake Country Limited, on a 2 hour, 50 minute schedule – an hour slower than in the early 1950s. On many days the train runs nearly empty. Next, Amtrak plans to add a train between Chicago and Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, again on a schedule slower than in the early 1950s. Amtrak also is looking for ways to add trains to Meridian, Mississippi, home to ARC Chairman Gilbert Carmichael and Amtrak Board member John Robert Smith. In Amtrak's expansion plan, trains on most new routes will be slow. Amtrak's assertion that millions of new travelers will climb aboard such trains is bogus. It is even probable that trains such as the Kentucky Cardinal, Lake Country Limited and the proposed Fond du Lac and Meridian services are illegal because they violate Amtrak's statutory mandate to provide modern rail passenger service, 49 USC Sec. 24101 (a)(1), (b). CONGRESS MUST OUST AMTRAK'S "REFORM BOARD OF DIRECTORS" Amtrak's Reform Board of Directors must be held accountable for their actions. On an urgent basis, I believe Congress should amend the Amtrak law to require the removal of every current Amtrak board member and require their replacements to be individuals who have succeeded in turning around troubled businesses. I urge Congress to not give Amtrak a penny more until a new board is seated. If we wait until their terms expire in 2003, Amtrak will be in deeper fiscal trouble. Current board members are: - Tommy G. Thompson, Chairman - Governor of Wisconsin - Michael S. Dukakis, Vice Chairman - former Governor of Massachusetts - Linwood Holton - former Governor of Virginia - Rodney Slater U.S. Secretary of Transportation - John Robert Smith - Mayor of Meridian, Mississippi - Sylvia de Leon - Amy Rosen - George D. Warrington, Amtrak President & CEO A previous attempt to place new individuals on the Amtrak board was made in the ARAA, which created a "Reform Board of Directors." But the Clinton Administration blatantly ignored the provision by reappointing many members of the old board. On February 11, 1998, Senator John McCain objected, saying, "Congress did not call for the formulation of a new Board so that existing members could be reappointed. Congress called for a new Board with a fresh approach in order to attain Amtrak's operating and financial goals." Events have proven Senator McCain to be right. It's time for Congress to replace the Amtrak board with people who have bona-fide business turn-around credentials and the interest of the taxpayers at heart. PERMANENTLY REMOVE TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY FROM BOARD Federal law for many years required Amtrak to issue preferred stock to the federal government in exchange for federal operating and capital grants subsidies. The Secretary of Transportation, on behalf of the federal government, holds all preferred shares in Amtrak. This is the historical reason for the Transportation Secretary serving as an ex-officio member of the Amtrak Board of Directors. Congress should place the preferred shares at the Treasury Department and assign the ex-officio seat to the Secretary of the Treasury. Presumably, this representative of the public trust will be better equipped to halt Amtrak's inappropriate financial maneuvering and less inclined to permit intolerable actions on Amtrak's behalf. This issue has come to a head because DOT Secretary Slater has again demonstrated a gross lack of concern for fiscal integrity in order to help Amtrak. The most recent example involves DOT interference with a legitimate contract negotiated in Boston. There, after a decade of dissatisfaction with Amtrak's high costs for maintaining its equipment, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) conducted a legitimate competitive bidding process and attempted to turn over the equipment maintenance contract to a winning private operator named Bay State Transit Service. The new company offered to provide the same service as Amtrak for $175 million over five years - $116 million less than Amtrak's bid. The efficiency benefits could help commuters if MBTA were to use part of the $116 million to add trains on busy lines. Or, the funds could have been returned to the taxpayers. But the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) compelled MBTA to accept the absurd Amtrak contract by freezing $70 million in federal funds for local transit construction. Secretary Slater oversees the FTA and is duty-bound to spend transit funds in a prudent manner to help commuters. In fact, the FTA action hurt Boston commuters. Mr. Slater also serves on the Amtrak board of directors, and his acquiescence to FTA’s action only preserved an overpriced Amtrak arrangement and perpetuated an MBTA-financed subsidy for Amtrak. This is an example of a Cabinet member ignoring a conflict of interest and outrageously fostering inefficiency in railroad passenger services, both commuter and inter-city. CONGRESSIONAL ACTION NEEDED Luca Pacioli, an Italian mathematician who lived in the 1400s, reportedly said, "If you cannot be a good accountant, you will grope your way forward like a blind man and may meet great losses." Amtrak is "meeting great losses" and is showing no signs of changing its ways. In fact, one conclusion that ARC reached in its January report was that Amtrak is spending capital funds in ways "that may not have any beneficial effect on Amtrak's financial performance." If alarm bells from the GAO, DOT Inspector General, and ARC aren't enough to cause serious concerns, then consider the review conducted in the midst of a threatened Amtrak bankruptcy. In June 1997, the Working Group on Inter-City Rail, created by the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, concluded in its report: "Amtrak is awash in red ink, buffeted by conflicting missions and ballooning debt. . . . Amtrak has missed its financial targets . . . . Amtrak's capital and operating funding should be directed toward routes with the market potential, which are primarily the higher density inter-city corridors . . . . Amtrak is requiring large subsidies from taxpayers and those subsidies are not directed to activities of maximum benefit." Senator Lott, little has changed since that report. For these reasons, I believe Congress should take the following actions (listed in the order in which the issues were raised in this letter): NEEDED DIRECTIVES - Determine from the ARC what inquiries Amtrak has ignored, and require Amtrak to supply timely, forthright, accurate responses. In particular, demand that Amtrak provide, within 30 days, a balance sheet regarding its freight program, a document sufficiently clear as to shed light on the program's financial performance. - Require the GAO to prepare and issue a study on Amtrak's labor productivity to help set a misleading record straight in the House and Senate. AMEND THE AMTRAK LAW - Require Amtrak annual reports to the public and submissions to Congress to clearly identify subsidies, the source of all public funds, and interest costs paid by other agencies for Amtrak-incurred debt. The objective should be simply to require publication of sensible reports that forthrightly explain the true extent of Amtrak's revenues, subsidies, costs, and losses. - Replace the existing Amtrak board with executives who have business turn-around expertise, innovative thinking, and a commitment to run modern trains where they are justified by the marketplace. - Seat the Treasury Secretary as the U.S. Government's ex-officio member of Amtrak's board in place of the Transportation Secretary. INVESTIGATE CANADIAN LOAN - Probe Canada's $1 billion Acela loan to Amtrak for the purposes of determining the uses to which it was put, the reasons for the secrecy, and the potential liability to American taxpayers. STOP NEW BAIL-OUT LEGISLATION - Refuse to pass the so-called High Speed Rail Investment Act until a new direction can be established for the effective planning of high-speed train systems, a direction that includes market-sensitive private businesses. CONCLUSION Senator Lott, passenger traffic growth will not save Amtrak. The ARC, in its January report, issued an assessment that bears repeating: "During a decade when the American economy and most of its transportation system have expanded in an unprecedented manner, Amtrak's ridership has remained virtually unchanged." This is accurate. Amtrak's much-ballyhooed fiscal year 1999 ridership of 21.5 million passengers was lower than the 22.2 million who boarded Amtrak back in 1990. Senator Lott, you are a member of the Commerce Committee, which has general oversight over Amtrak, and a member of the Finance Committee, to which the new Amtrak bail-out legislation has been referred. I urge you to use your influence on those committees to carry out a true reform of Amtrak and to protect taxpayers from future liabilities that will total billions of additional dollars. I thank you for the trust you have shown in appointing me to the ARC. I believe I am making a contribution on my last day of service by bringing to your attention Amtrak's non-responsiveness to the ARC and recent examples of Amtrak mismanagement and financial contrivance. Respectfully yours, Joseph Vranich Copy: Gil Carmichael, Chairman, Amtrak Reform Council The usual content of this Web page begins here: ABOUT THE BOOK Although he worked to create Amtrak and lobbied on behalf of federal funds for Amtrak’s Acela program, Joseph Vranich’s latest book declares Amtrak a failure and calls for a carefully planned liquidation. In Derailed: What Went Wrong and What to Do About America’s Passenger Trains, he proposes that new public and private entities replace Amtrak and run trains on routes that have the greatest chance of success. Free of ties to the rail industry, he reviews Amtrak’s troubled past, examines why Amtrak’s ridership is barely higher than two decades ago, and recounts Amtrak’s promises to improve service – promises that have been broken despite at least $24.5 billion in public subsidies. Derailed reveals how Amtrak trains on most routes are slower than trains were fifty years ago, in the Truman era, and in some cases are slower than today’s Third World trains. Today, Amtrak’s market share is the lowest in history. Vranich argues for passenger trains and praises innovative commuter agencies, high-speed train planners, long-distance “land-cruise” trains and selected foreign railroads. The book reveals that Amtrak-style overnight trains are declining in use throughout the world. Derailed offers insights from countries that are regionalizing, privatizing, devolving, and liquidating their public railroads. In England, a franchise system, even though flawed, has lured Virgin Atlantic Airlines and bus companies into the rail passenger business; Argentina, Japan, and other countries have phased out their Amtrak-style public railroads. PRAISE FOR DERAILED “When one of Amtrak’s true believers begins to question the cause, then maybe it’s time for the rest of us to listen. That’s certainly the case with Joe Vranich... whose newest book Derailed calls for the end of Amtrak as we know it.” – David Field, USA Today. “He argues that Amtrak’s service is of abysmal quality, that its trains are embarrassingly slow [and] often late.... Unfortunately, Vranich’s criticisms are largely correct.” – The Nation. “The book is not simply a damning review of Amtrak’s perceived historical failures.... Much of it is constructive and highly thought-provoking. The reforms proposed by Vranich appear solid and workable, and they are likely to receive serious consideration at a political level.” – International Railway Journal. “Derailed is a surprisingly accessible book on public policy... fine reading.” – Politics and Government Editor's Recommended Book at Amazon.com. “A searing indictment of Amtrak and a powerful call for the kind of ground transportation system America desperately needs today.” – E. S. “Steve” Savas, Director, Baruch College Privatization Research Organization. “Derailed is a refreshing look at how to save and improve passenger trains that make sense for America. Travelers should thank Joe Vranich for showing us how to phase out deficit-ridden national rail systems such as Amtrak and develop innovative high-speed train systems – the kind of systems Americans want to ride.” – Stephen J. McKnight, former Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, High Speed Ground Transportation Association. “If the Pope one morning announced that he had become a Buddhist, it would be big news. Similarly, for a longtime passenger-rail insider to denounce Amtrak as a failure and argue for its liquidation is big news.” – Robert W. Poole, Jr., Reason Magazine. Vranich takes a non-partisan approach to rail passenger issues – Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott praised Derailed and President Clinton praised his first book, Supertrains. ACCLAIM FROM LONG-TIME AMTRAK SUPPORTERS “Amtrak is a cruel disappointment. Derailed shows the way to the kinds of passenger trains which will make sense in the 21st century. Vranich has put the ball in the hands of those who must act – the Congress, the Administration, and the people of our country.” – Anthony Haswell, founder, National Association of Railroad Passengers and “father of Amtrak.” “I and many former Amtrak supporters have come to the realization that Amtrak is no longer worth fighting for.... We need to replace Amtrak with a market- based system of trains that make economic sense and serve as viable contributors to our transportation network. Derailed explains how to do that.” – Ken Bird, founder, Illinois Association of Railroad Passengers, and former board member, National Association of Railroad Passengers. “Especially recommended.” – Arizona Rail Passenger Association. “Is there a future for rail passenger service beyond Amtrak’s interminable history of mediocrity and disappointment? Yes, Vranich reassures us, but only if – along with Amtrak – we dump our own self-serving myths. Finally, a book that is hard-hitting, courageous, and chock full of new ideas.” – Alfred Runte, author, Trains of Discovery: Western Railroads and the National Parks, and former National Association of Railroad Passengers board member. “One can support and promote Amtrak just so long before one begins to look really foolish. Vranich has written a most courageous and timely call to action.” – Thomas R. Pulsifer, co-founder and past-President, Ohio Association of Railroad Passengers. CHAPTERS OF DERAILED Preface One – Riding Amtrak: An Adventure Two – Amtrak’s Structural Problems Three – New Long-Distance and Regional Trains Four – Sidetracking High-Speed Trains Five – Big Future for Commuter Rail Six – Who Will Run Tomorrow’s Trains? Photo Section Seven – America’s Booming Freight Railroads Eight – Washington Spins Its Wheels Nine – Should Amtrak Be Privatized? Ten – An Amtrak Transition and Dissolution Plan Bibliography Index “Vranich now sees Amtrak as a huge blunder. It’s an inescapable conclusion that, somehow, escapes Congress. [He asks], ‘Do we have an obligation to speak up when we’ve created something that doesn’t work? I think we do.’” – Newsweek columnist Robert J. Samuelson. ABOUT THE AUTHOR Joseph Vranich, public relations executive and lobbyist, has been published in the United States, Japan, Germany and Russia. He is uniquely qualified to write about Amtrak, which he argued to create and where he later served as a Public Affairs manager. (Washington Post columnist Bill Gold wrote in 1977 that Vranich was “an Amtrak spokesman who cares. Joe loves trains, and believes in them [saying] ‘We’ve just got to succeed.’”) He also has aviation and aerospace experience, having been a Washington Public Affairs Director for Boeing and Grumman. While President of the High Speed Rail Association in the early 1990s, he testified before Congress in favor of funding Amtrak’s Acela project and improvements on other routes; he also lobbied for legislation to induce private financing into all-new rail systems. The membership granted him the organization’s Distinguished Service Award, the “Sparky.” His first book, Supertrains: Solutions To America’s Transportation Gridlock (St. Martin’s), was praised by Tom Clancy, Ray Bradbury, the New York Times Book Review, Delta Airlines’ Sky Magazine and many others and was quoted during U.S. Senate debate. Vranich has been a speaker throughout the U.S. as well as in Europe and Asia and has appeared on all major U.S. television networks. He completed an executive development program at the University of Virginia, Colgate Darden Graduate School of Business, and earned a Bachelor’s Degree in Liberal Arts from Slippery Rock University in Pennsylvania. ”[Vranich’s] tone is finding more and more resonance among longtime Amtrak riders and supporters who once went along with anything Amtrak did on the premise that any passenger train is better than no train.... The book is well-reasoned and well-written.” – Dan Cupper, author of Crossroads of Commerce, in Trains magazine. The following Internet link is provided in association with Amazon.com, which usually ships the book in 24 hours: Order Derailed from Amazon.com at 30% Savings - Fast Shipping! Also, Derailed may be obtained through local bookstores. Or, to order by phone from St. Martin’s Press Book Distributors – in the U.S. call 1-800-288-2131 – the number for Canada and overseas is New York City 718-984-3398. (For those who need Derailed’s ISBN number, it is 0-312-17182-X.) NEWS MEDIA, PLEASE NOTE Journalists wishing to contact the author should call Gregg Sullivan, publicity department, St. Martin’s Press. His phone number is 212-674-5151, ext. 531. WIDESPREAD MEDIA INTEREST Derailed has received extensive notice. Mr. Vranich’s current views about Amtrak have appeared in many newspapers and magazines, and he has also appeared on national TV and radio to discuss railroad passenger service. Accesses: "Matthew J. Brown" wrote: > > Bennett Levin writes: > > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blue > > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. > > Didn't most passenger trains even fifty years ago carry mail and express > freight? Amtrak hardly thought of the idea first. > > And from what I remember reading, even back then many passenger trains would > not have turned a profit were it not for the mail and freight ... if Amtrak > needs to do this for its trains to break even, then I say let them. Would > you rather the train lost money and eventually was abandoned? > > As for being the fault of the government -- well, I see Amtrak trying to > function as a business rather than a money-losing sucker of our hard-earned > taxes. They're just dealing with the commercial realities of the situation, > which are that it is hard to make money running passenger trains in modern > America. Since the rules they operate under allow them to attach express > freight to passenger trains, and such freight turns a nice profit, why > should they walk away? Would you rather Amtrak lose money and be in a much > more perilous state? > > -Matt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Date: Fri, 1 Sep 100 13:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Bennett Levin scribit: > > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blure > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. I would argue that the government, having put its foot in the door (1971), decided to remove it fairly suddenly. Had the government done nothing, save possibly stop regulating passenger trains entirely, Amtrak would exist in 3 isolated pockets in the US, if it existed at all. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] AMTRAK Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:21:36 EDT To the list: We are a PRR list and so I will try to make this more relevant to us. Amtrak is not to be blamed in the way the previous account has blamed it. Why is Amtrak late? I know since I am a very frequent rider over the Broadway. Amtrak is late only coming eastbound from Chicago to NYC. Why? Because they do not own the trackage west of Harrisburg. Thus the trains are consistantly 3 hrs. late due to problems in Ohio where at places there is only double track and the passengers play 2nd fiddle to freight. It's the same story for trains all over the country where Amtrak does not own the right-of-way. This is from a frequent Amtrak rider. I trust Amtrak. I like their service. And let's face it folks. As much as I and you all would like it, there is no PRR and NS will never carry like they did. Amtrak is our last hope as a nation in fixing the terrible rail gap that has existed here for half a century. The rest of the world relies on trains. The US, who pioneered the greatest rail network in the world thinks driving and flying is better. If you all have a better idea than Amtrak. Let's hear it, but for now try to support Amtrak and in doing so the public may see how important passenger service really is. Respectfully, Matt Sichel Youngest PRR Affectionado _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Amtrak (was Tyrone Station) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 14:28:00 -0400 As I understand it, Amtrak needs to show a profit by sometime aroune 2003 or risk going under. I suspect just hauling passengers won't cut it. If they're going to haul mail and express, why not do it like UPS - fines that increase by the minute if they're late. And allow them to pass part of the fines on to the host railroad. Jerry's comment about 30 minutes or so to drop last five cars of train is all too typical. Just uncouple them and pull away. Let host RR retrieve them with a switcher. This isn't rocket science! These problems have all been solved by railroads in the past. Quit playing games and run the railroad! As for not blaming NS (or CSX or whomever), seems to me if they can't get their own trains over the railroad, they aren't likely to do much better with Amtrak's. I leave in less than a month for a 3 week Amtrak trip around the country. I'll have some first hand information to report in late October. I am taking the precaution of packing supplies and provisions! More in a month! I will forward this post to Amtrak, as soon as I find the e-mail address. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:43:33 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be it. Mark Bej wrote: > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blure > > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. > > I would argue that the government, having put its foot in the door (1971), > decided to remove it fairly suddenly. > > Had the government done nothing, save possibly stop regulating passenger > trains entirely, Amtrak would exist in 3 isolated pockets in the US, if > it existed at all. > > -- > Mark D. Bej > bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 14:53:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Bennett Levin wrote: > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > it. So the government should stop paying for any roads other than what tolls will pay for, clearly. But no one ever remembers that. Not that any of this has anything to do with this list. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 15:40:40 -0400 To all: There are all sorts of economic and political factors involved in railroad passenger service anywhere on the globe today and they do not belong here, but no one has recovered fully allocated costs anywhere for half a century. I do recall Pennsy's attempt in the mid-1960's to make the Broadway Limited at least meet out of pocket expenses with some hilarious print ads in New York, Philadelphia and Chicago newspapers and regional editions of the news magazines. It increased volume, but sadly not enough. Does anyone out there have copies of the ads? I particularly liked the one comparing a roomette to a submarine. Gregg Mahlkov http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION > On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Bennett Levin wrote: > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > it. > > So the government should stop paying for any roads other than what tolls > will pay for, clearly. But no one ever remembers that. > > Not that any of this has anything to do with this list. > > -D > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:12:07 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION I seem to recall the one with a businessman, suitcase in hand, standing at the top of an airplane boarding stairway (remember those?) with the Broadway parked underneath. He's peering across the roof looking for his plane! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > To all: > > There are all sorts of economic and political factors involved in railroad > passenger service anywhere on the globe today and they do not belong here, > but no one has recovered fully allocated costs anywhere for half a century. > I do recall Pennsy's attempt in the mid-1960's to make the Broadway Limited > at least meet out of pocket expenses with some hilarious print ads in New > York, Philadelphia and Chicago newspapers and regional editions of the news > magazines. It increased volume, but sadly not enough. > Does anyone out there have copies of the ads? I particularly liked the one > comparing a roomette to a submarine. > > Gregg Mahlkov > http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Date: Fri, 1 Sep 100 17:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Bennett Levin scribit: > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > it. I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my previous post was not). There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the federal government. But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took bankruptcies to change the situation.) Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less than its competing modes. Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the advent of railroads was. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:46:06 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Broadway's twin unit diner I just found the Broadway's twin unit diner! Its touring the country in the "Artrain". Its schedule can be found at: http://www.diamondbullet.com/Artrain/index.html Supposedly its carry some magnificent work of art. But who cares, its the container that's priceless! -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:53:13 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION I commend Mark for his well thought out response. I think we all most remember that the main reason for the demise of the beloved PRR was the intense meddling and regulation by government. The ICC and various PUCs hung the passenger train around the neck of the PRR like the proverbial albatross. Local Full Crew Laws bloated a payroll and nullified many of the benefits of technology. (Today the FRA in its recently adopted Passenger Service Rules has reimposed work rules that go back to the 19th century. What labor has failed to obtain by collective bargaining they now have been gifted by the FRA. I know as I sat on the FRA RASC.) In the case of the PRR, management also shared the blame because when the Board of Directors ceased to promote operating officers (engineers) into the position of President and let a lawyer take control (Saunders) the end was at hand. The government did not allow a sufficient return on investment, so the investment of RR assets were siphoned off into non-rail subsidiaries. To deal with all the intense regulation it was perceived that you needed a lawyer. Like the old Broadway Limited Advertisement, the PRR had ceased being a railroad and as the advertisement said became a "jump-jet". A railroad is a complex organization, and needs an experienced almost military organization to function properly. The PRR was successful in part because it promoted well trained and experienced railroaders into its top management. Look at what happened when a lawyer took the throttle! Had the PRR been able to earn a fair rate of return on its assets and was able to embrace technology for profit, as well as safety and service, and was not bound by hinious government intrusion, we would still be able to see Keystones rounding the "curve", "Pennsylvania Station" would have real meaning, Altoona would be a boom town, the high speed trainsets between New York and Washington would be painted Tuscan rather than some bizarre scheme that looks as if it was designed by A. Calder, and the N&W would be an operating division rather than the current custodian of the franchise. Think of what has happened and the cost! Mark Bej wrote: > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > it. > > I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my > previous post was not). > > There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where > there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the > bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their > cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the > federal government. > > But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias > are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding > for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; > (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of > the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) > or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere > there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. > The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an > open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. > > So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the > airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's > measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just > cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange > the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. > > Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's > assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with > the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable > to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of > public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true > vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took > bankruptcies to change the situation.) > > Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par > with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is > or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is > forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less > than its competing modes. > > Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it > still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly > deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the > advent of railroads was. > > -- > Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 21:39:06 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak (was TYRONE STATION) It is fascinating that a current objective observation of the state of passenger rail service in the U.S. is but a carbon copy of an "autopsy" of the PRR. I thank you gentlemen for your intelligent commentary. Questions: Was the "Metroliner", which received virtually none of the rigorous testing through which a PRR project would have been put, tangled in as much controversy as it's counterpart of today? What role was played by the federal government in the development of the "Metroliner" and are we merely acting out the same high-speed scenario today with a different audience? Bennett Levin wrote: > > I commend Mark for his well thought out response. > > I think we all most remember that the main reason for the demise of the > beloved PRR was the intense meddling and regulation by government. The > ICC and various PUCs hung the passenger train around the neck of the PRR > like the proverbial albatross. Local Full Crew Laws bloated a payroll > and nullified many of the benefits of technology. (Today the FRA in its > recently adopted Passenger Service Rules has reimposed work rules that > go back to the 19th century. What labor has failed to obtain by > collective bargaining they now have been gifted by the FRA. I know as I > sat on the FRA RASC.) > > In the case of the PRR, management also shared the blame because when > the Board of Directors ceased to promote operating officers (engineers) > into the position of President and let a lawyer take control (Saunders) > the end was at hand. The government did not allow a sufficient return on > investment, so the investment of RR assets were siphoned off into > non-rail subsidiaries. > > To deal with all the intense regulation it was perceived that you needed > a lawyer. Like the old Broadway Limited Advertisement, the PRR had > ceased being a railroad and as the advertisement said became a > "jump-jet". A railroad is a complex organization, and needs an > experienced almost military organization to function properly. The PRR > was successful in part because it promoted well trained and experienced > railroaders into its top management. Look at what happened when a lawyer > took the throttle! > > Had the PRR been able to earn a fair rate of return on its assets and > was able to embrace technology for profit, as well as safety and > service, and was not bound by hinious government intrusion, we would > still be able to see Keystones rounding the "curve", "Pennsylvania > Station" would have real meaning, Altoona would be a boom town, the high > speed trainsets between New York and Washington would be painted Tuscan > rather than some bizarre scheme that looks as if it was designed by A. > Calder, and the N&W would be an operating division rather than the > current custodian of the franchise. > > Think of what has happened and the cost! > > > > Mark Bej wrote: > > > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > > it. > > > > I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my > > previous post was not). > > > > There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where > > there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the > > bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their > > cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the > > federal government. > > > > But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias > > are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding > > for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; > > (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of > > the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) > > or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere > > there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. > > The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an > > open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. > > > > So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the > > airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's > > measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just > > cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange > > the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. > > > > Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's > > assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with > > the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable > > to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of > > public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true > > vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took > > bankruptcies to change the situation.) > > > > Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par > > with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is > > or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is > > forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less > > than its competing modes. > > > > Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it > > still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly > > deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the > > advent of railroads was. > > > > -- > > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Amtrak nee: Tyrone Station Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:03:14 -0400 I realize it is political season, but it is not necessary to rehash the demise of the PRR and the condition of Amtrak here. If I recall, one of the minor party presidential candidates in this election even wrote a book called "The Wreck of the Penn Central". I will say just one thing about Amtrak's "express". It is not taking any traffic from the freight railroads. The freight Amtrak is handling is traffic the Class I's wouldn't even know how to solicit, let alone handle. On the Pennsy, the operating department used to tell us traffic types we were drones, they would handle the traffic, or 90 percent of it, without solicitation or marketing. We would remind them that it was that 10 percent that kept the PRR from bankruptcy. The NYC wanted traffic forces to concentrate on the top 20 percent as thay had 80 percent of the freight. PC did as the NYC folks ordered and look what happened! Gregg Mahlkov http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] throw away society? Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 19:18:29 -0700 Some time ago we discussed the K4 restoration cost. There were individuals on this list who said the restoration should stop as the engine was beyond its worth for restoration. That at the cost to restore it, we should build a new one, like what is being done in England with steam engines. Despite this attitude and the difficulties faced in raising funds the engine is going to be restored and probably be finished in the near future. Yes, this is becuase of public funding, but so is Steamtown! Where would we be if Conrail had not been formed and publicly funded? Now it seems many are willing to give up on Amtrak. The problems with Amtrak are not simple and certainly the people on this list are not experts on the subject. While I do not know much about the Amtrak problems, I know we in the southern california area could use a good rail transportation system like that used in Europe. Amtrak is the last great hope for mass transit across the country. I hope we do not give up on it. Something as complex as the issues around it will not be solved quickly or cheaply. I still would like to see it be given a chance to become successful. Let's not give up so easily. It is always easier to throw away than to restore! --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 1 Sep 00 22:19:51 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] TYRONE STATION With all this talk about the Tyrone Station, who can remember what the town of Tyrone, was the "Home Of"? It was hard not to see the sign from any P.R.R train in the station. The sign read: "TYRONE HOME OF W---- C----- S----". ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] SRC 40th steam special Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:52:59 -0400 It's not the PRR but it did happen in Pennsylvania - to a railroad that the PRR served, and I completely forgot about it, until this afternoon on my way home from work! The Strasburg Rail Road ran a special to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the return of steam to the SRC. The train featured #31 which did the honors 40 years ago. On board the train were the three remaining original stockholders (Vice Presidents), many of the current stockholders, directors, employees and former employees, even some of the Amish neighbors, along with lots of family. Special banners for the anniversary where attached to number 31's tender. The special left at 7:00PM, Lynn Moedinger, chief mechanical officer and engineer of the special, gave a short dedication speech at Leaman Place, to honor those that had saved the railroad and turned it into the "best railroad in the country". We returned to East Strasburg at about 8:00pm in the dark to cake and punch. What a privilege to be part of the event (my wife, children and I rode in the Cherry Hill - one of the original cars) and my apologies to those on the lists for not getting the word out. Not that it was a great night for photography, but it was a historical moment non-the-less. I should have a picture of #31 and banner tomorrow Cos President and CBW Cos Communications, Inc. Home of the Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road http://www.wsbcos.com http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 23:56:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION In a message dated 09/01/2000 10:26:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tvpete@usa.net writes: << With all this talk about the Tyrone Station, who can remember what the town of Tyrone, was the "Home Of"? It was hard not to see the sign from any P.R.R train in the station. The sign read: "TYRONE HOME OF W---- C----- S----". >> WHITE CLOVERINE SALVE BY WILSON CHEMICAL COMPANY WHICH HAD IT'S HQ OPPOSITE THE ORIGINAL TYRONE STATION ON THE HILLSIDE WHERE I-99 NOW HAS IT'S CORRIDOR. Dave Seidel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv & Sylvie Brice" Subject: [PRR] Girder Bridges Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 18:53:53 +1000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C0150F.23D49140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G'day Listers, I have a bridge to build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet span and about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be suitable for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the Pennsy have a standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. Given my distance from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most useful. Viv Brice, another SPF from down under PRRT&HS member 6781 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C0150F.23D49140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
G'day=20 Listers,
I have = a bridge to=20 build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet span and=20 about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be = suitable=20 for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the Pennsy = have a=20 standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. Given my = distance=20 from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most=20 useful.

Viv Brice, another SPF from down=20 under
PRRT&HS member=20 6781

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C0150F.23D49140-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 04:56:58 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION I thought "W-C-S" when related to Tyrone stood for "Wrost Corossive Smell" for the smell that was emitted by the West Virginia Paper Company on the east side of town. I remember my first trip through Tyrone enroute to Altoona from State College to see the layouts at the Webster Rec Center and being greeted by the sulphur aroma from the mill. Now, many years later, Tyrone has clear air and is a great town to watch the action on the Middle Div. With the restoration of the K4 hopefully it will become the starting point for some real running on the Bald Eagle. The "Y" is being restored in Lock Haven so a trip there is now a possibility. The station could then have some real significance! There used to be a great restraurant in Tyrone called the Forge. BL DWSNRHS@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 09/01/2000 10:26:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tvpete@usa.net writes: > > << With all this talk about the Tyrone Station, who can remember what the > town of > Tyrone, was the "Home Of"? It was hard not to see the sign from > any P.R.R train in the station. The sign read: > "TYRONE HOME OF W---- C----- S----". > >> > WHITE CLOVERINE SALVE BY WILSON CHEMICAL COMPANY WHICH HAD IT'S HQ OPPOSITE > THE ORIGINAL TYRONE STATION ON THE HILLSIDE WHERE I-99 NOW HAS IT'S CORRIDOR. > Dave Seidel > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 05:20:05 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] throw away society? "One man's banquet is another man's poison" At least with the K4 there will be a lasting tangible result. Those who arranged the portion of the costs that were covered by public funding should be congratulated, commended, and re-elected for life! I know of no better way for the government to spend my hard earned tax money! Frankly, the restoration of the K4 was one of the reasons my family recently bought Conrail 4020, nee PRR 5809! I seem to recall that the US Treasury was the beneficiary of the sale of stock that created a publicly held company from the USRA created entity called CONRAIL. Steamtown will be successful and an asset to the Wyoming Valley because of a commitment to excellence. The Railroad Museum of the State of Pennsylvania grew from the State of Pennsylvania's creative thinking in taking the locomotive collection from Penn Central in lieu of taxes owed the state by the bankrupt carrier. The State RR museum has the highest per capita attendance rate of any of the sites administered by the state's Historic and Museum Commission. It is a key player in the economic engine called tourism. The fact that the PRR collection remains in PA and with the exception of a few pieces (P-5 & I-1) has not been scattered is something of which everyone on this list should be proud! Those of you on the left coast can be equally proud of what your tax dollars created in Sacramento! Sic Transit Gloria! (Whatever that means) BL Greg Stone wrote: > > Some time ago we discussed the K4 restoration cost. There were individuals > on this list who said the restoration should stop as the engine was beyond > its worth for restoration. That at the cost to restore it, we should build a > new one, like what is being done in England with steam engines. Despite this > attitude and the difficulties faced in raising funds the engine is going to > be restored and probably be finished in the near future. Yes, this is > becuase of public funding, but so is Steamtown! > Where would we be if Conrail had not been formed and publicly funded? > Now it seems many are willing to give up on Amtrak. > The problems with Amtrak are not simple and certainly the people on this > list are not experts on the subject. While I do not know much about the > Amtrak problems, I know we in the southern california area could use a good > rail transportation system like that used in Europe. Amtrak is the last > great hope for mass transit across the country. I hope we do not give up on > it. Something as complex as the issues around it will not be solved quickly > or cheaply. I still would like to see it be given a chance to become > successful. Let's not give up so easily. It is always easier to throw away > than to restore! > --Greg > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 06:09:29 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak (was TYRONE STATION) The cars were a development funded by the PRR, GE, Westinghouse, and Budd. The cars were purchased by the PRr with the exception of the last 10 which were the beneficaries of funding by the State of Pennsylvania. The USDOT paid for some of the track improvement between "County and Millham", (New Brunswick and Trenton) and bought 4 new Silverliner cars which became DOT 1-4. Those cars were instrumented for use on the test track. Richard Nixon used a Metroliner to visit Philadelphia (I think to hear the orchestra) and the METROLINER was thus a "POTUS" train, at least once. There were some technical problems especially with the inrush currents tripping circuit breakers at wayside substations and with windows being sucked out of adjacent trains of MP-54's with wooden sash. Each Metroliner train (numbered in the 100 series) carried an on-board electrical technician to troubleshoot enroute control problems. Before delivery to the PRR the cars were stored on a siding just east of JENKIN interlocking on the RDG and were tested on the West Trenton line from Jenkintown to Neshaminy Falls. This line also had the switching lead into the Budd Red Lion Plant. See my early attachment for Vranich resignation letter for an outline the the Acela high speed trainset problems.The cars are too wide, and too heavy. As we live in a "Blameless Society" without individual responsibllity, it should prove interesting when 60 Minutes or another investigative TV program catches up with the story. Chris Brandt wrote: > > It is fascinating that a current objective observation of the state of > passenger rail service in the U.S. is but a carbon copy of an "autopsy" > of the PRR. I thank you gentlemen for your intelligent commentary. > > Questions: > Was the "Metroliner", which received virtually none of the rigorous > testing through which a PRR project would have been put, tangled in as > much controversy as it's counterpart of today? What role was played by > the federal government in the development of the "Metroliner" and are we > merely acting out the same high-speed scenario today with a different > audience? > > Bennett Levin wrote: > > > > I commend Mark for his well thought out response. > > > > I think we all most remember that the main reason for the demise of the > > beloved PRR was the intense meddling and regulation by government. The > > ICC and various PUCs hung the passenger train around the neck of the PRR > > like the proverbial albatross. Local Full Crew Laws bloated a payroll > > and nullified many of the benefits of technology. (Today the FRA in its > > recently adopted Passenger Service Rules has reimposed work rules that > > go back to the 19th century. What labor has failed to obtain by > > collective bargaining they now have been gifted by the FRA. I know as I > > sat on the FRA RASC.) > > > > In the case of the PRR, management also shared the blame because when > > the Board of Directors ceased to promote operating officers (engineers) > > into the position of President and let a lawyer take control (Saunders) > > the end was at hand. The government did not allow a sufficient return on > > investment, so the investment of RR assets were siphoned off into > > non-rail subsidiaries. > > > > To deal with all the intense regulation it was perceived that you needed > > a lawyer. Like the old Broadway Limited Advertisement, the PRR had > > ceased being a railroad and as the advertisement said became a > > "jump-jet". A railroad is a complex organization, and needs an > > experienced almost military organization to function properly. The PRR > > was successful in part because it promoted well trained and experienced > > railroaders into its top management. Look at what happened when a lawyer > > took the throttle! > > > > Had the PRR been able to earn a fair rate of return on its assets and > > was able to embrace technology for profit, as well as safety and > > service, and was not bound by hinious government intrusion, we would > > still be able to see Keystones rounding the "curve", "Pennsylvania > > Station" would have real meaning, Altoona would be a boom town, the high > > speed trainsets between New York and Washington would be painted Tuscan > > rather than some bizarre scheme that looks as if it was designed by A. > > Calder, and the N&W would be an operating division rather than the > > current custodian of the franchise. > > > > Think of what has happened and the cost! > > > > > > > > Mark Bej wrote: > > > > > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > > > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > > > it. > > > > > > I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my > > > previous post was not). > > > > > > There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where > > > there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the > > > bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their > > > cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the > > > federal government. > > > > > > But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias > > > are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding > > > for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; > > > (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of > > > the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) > > > or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere > > > there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. > > > The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an > > > open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. > > > > > > So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the > > > airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's > > > measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just > > > cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange > > > the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. > > > > > > Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's > > > assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with > > > the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable > > > to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of > > > public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true > > > vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took > > > bankruptcies to change the situation.) > > > > > > Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par > > > with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is > > > or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is > > > forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less > > > than its competing modes. > > > > > > Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it > > > still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly > > > deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the > > > advent of railroads was. > > > > > > -- > > > Mark > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > -- > Chris Brandt > cobrandt@eclipse.net > http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 06:09:29 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak (was TYRONE STATION) The cars were a development funded by the PRR, GE, Westinghouse, and Budd. The cars were purchased by the PRr with the exception of the last 10 which were the beneficaries of funding by the State of Pennsylvania. The USDOT paid for some of the track improvement between "County and Millham", (New Brunswick and Trenton) and bought 4 new Silverliner cars which became DOT 1-4. Those cars were instrumented for use on the test track. Richard Nixon used a Metroliner to visit Philadelphia (I think to hear the orchestra) and the METROLINER was thus a "POTUS" train, at least once. There were some technical problems especially with the inrush currents tripping circuit breakers at wayside substations and with windows being sucked out of adjacent trains of MP-54's with wooden sash. Each Metroliner train (numbered in the 100 series) carried an on-board electrical technician to troubleshoot enroute control problems. Before delivery to the PRR the cars were stored on a siding just east of JENKIN interlocking on the RDG and were tested on the West Trenton line from Jenkintown to Neshaminy Falls. This line also had the switching lead into the Budd Red Lion Plant. See my early attachment for Vranich resignation letter for an outline the the Acela high speed trainset problems.The cars are too wide, and too heavy. As we live in a "Blameless Society" without individual responsibllity, it should prove interesting when 60 Minutes or another investigative TV program catches up with the story. Chris Brandt wrote: > > It is fascinating that a current objective observation of the state of > passenger rail service in the U.S. is but a carbon copy of an "autopsy" > of the PRR. I thank you gentlemen for your intelligent commentary. > > Questions: > Was the "Metroliner", which received virtually none of the rigorous > testing through which a PRR project would have been put, tangled in as > much controversy as it's counterpart of today? What role was played by > the federal government in the development of the "Metroliner" and are we > merely acting out the same high-speed scenario today with a different > audience? > > Bennett Levin wrote: > > > > I commend Mark for his well thought out response. > > > > I think we all most remember that the main reason for the demise of the > > beloved PRR was the intense meddling and regulation by government. The > > ICC and various PUCs hung the passenger train around the neck of the PRR > > like the proverbial albatross. Local Full Crew Laws bloated a payroll > > and nullified many of the benefits of technology. (Today the FRA in its > > recently adopted Passenger Service Rules has reimposed work rules that > > go back to the 19th century. What labor has failed to obtain by > > collective bargaining they now have been gifted by the FRA. I know as I > > sat on the FRA RASC.) > > > > In the case of the PRR, management also shared the blame because when > > the Board of Directors ceased to promote operating officers (engineers) > > into the position of President and let a lawyer take control (Saunders) > > the end was at hand. The government did not allow a sufficient return on > > investment, so the investment of RR assets were siphoned off into > > non-rail subsidiaries. > > > > To deal with all the intense regulation it was perceived that you needed > > a lawyer. Like the old Broadway Limited Advertisement, the PRR had > > ceased being a railroad and as the advertisement said became a > > "jump-jet". A railroad is a complex organization, and needs an > > experienced almost military organization to function properly. The PRR > > was successful in part because it promoted well trained and experienced > > railroaders into its top management. Look at what happened when a lawyer > > took the throttle! > > > > Had the PRR been able to earn a fair rate of return on its assets and > > was able to embrace technology for profit, as well as safety and > > service, and was not bound by hinious government intrusion, we would > > still be able to see Keystones rounding the "curve", "Pennsylvania > > Station" would have real meaning, Altoona would be a boom town, the high > > speed trainsets between New York and Washington would be painted Tuscan > > rather than some bizarre scheme that looks as if it was designed by A. > > Calder, and the N&W would be an operating division rather than the > > current custodian of the franchise. > > > > Think of what has happened and the cost! > > > > > > > > Mark Bej wrote: > > > > > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > > > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > > > it. > > > > > > I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my > > > previous post was not). > > > > > > There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where > > > there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the > > > bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their > > > cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the > > > federal government. > > > > > > But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias > > > are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding > > > for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; > > > (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of > > > the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) > > > or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere > > > there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. > > > The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an > > > open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. > > > > > > So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the > > > airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's > > > measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just > > > cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange > > > the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. > > > > > > Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's > > > assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with > > > the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable > > > to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of > > > public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true > > > vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took > > > bankruptcies to change the situation.) > > > > > > Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par > > > with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is > > > or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is > > > forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less > > > than its competing modes. > > > > > > Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it > > > still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly > > > deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the > > > advent of railroads was. > > > > > > -- > > > Mark > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > -- > Chris Brandt > cobrandt@eclipse.net > http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] throw away society? Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 17:55:34 +0100 The reason that locomotives are being built in Britain is two fold: 1. To recreate classes lost at the end of steam ( A1 Pacific), or earlier Planet ) 2. To supply motive power for lines where more locomotives are needed David Lloyd George on the Festeniog ) and no suitable machines are available. A third category is for the theme park industry ie Disney. I know that there is discussion in the local railway press about designing a class of new locomotives for the preserved scene, the suggestion being for a suitable 2-6-2 of 2-6-4 tank, reasins being given as either the age of the locomotive stock or the shortage of suitable medium sized locomotives.... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stone" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 3:18 AM Subject: [PRR] throw away society? > Some time ago we discussed the K4 restoration cost. There were individuals > on this list who said the restoration should stop as the engine was beyond > its worth for restoration. That at the cost to restore it, we should build a > new one, like what is being done in England with steam engines. Despite this > attitude and the difficulties faced in raising funds the engine is going to > be restored and probably be finished in the near future. Yes, this is > becuase of public funding, but so is Steamtown! > Where would we be if Conrail had not been formed and publicly funded? > Now it seems many are willing to give up on Amtrak. > The problems with Amtrak are not simple and certainly the people on this > list are not experts on the subject. While I do not know much about the > Amtrak problems, I know we in the southern california area could use a good > rail transportation system like that used in Europe. Amtrak is the last > great hope for mass transit across the country. I hope we do not give up on > it. Something as complex as the issues around it will not be solved quickly > or cheaply. I still would like to see it be given a chance to become > successful. Let's not give up so easily. It is always easier to throw away > than to restore! > --Greg > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:46:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Waiting is over, Teichmoeller Hopper Book is out Hi Folks It arrived today priority mail. I had ordered it last summer when I saw the prepublication offer. Be prepared, you will want to spend some time on this book, fight the temptation to dig out all the kits to get started right away. It was well worth the wait. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. -----------------------