From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Northern Division Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:54:05 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFCB63.E2C62320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good Evening...Jerry, and everyone. Gonna be heading next week up through Sunbury and over through = Williamsport...eventually gonna try to get over to Renovo and then back = down to Horseshoe Curve...and I'd be real interested if any of you guys = who reside in these areas...particularly the Williamsport and Sunbury = area to know where I can find traces of the PRR to photograph? I'm = pretty familiar with the Curve...but I have never been to Sunbury or = Williamsport...any suggestions? Regards All. Bob Holden. PRRT&HS # 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFCB63.E2C62320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good Evening...Jerry, and everyone.
 
Gonna be heading next week up through Sunbury and over through=20 Williamsport...eventually gonna try to get over to Renovo and then back = down to=20 Horseshoe Curve...and I'd be real interested if any of you guys who = reside in=20 these areas...particularly the Williamsport and Sunbury area to know = where I can=20 find traces of the PRR to photograph? I'm pretty familiar with the = Curve...but I=20 have never been to Sunbury or Williamsport...any suggestions?
 
Regards All.
 
Bob Holden.
PRRT&HS # 5044
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFCB63.E2C62320-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:29:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steel Mill Questions In a message dated 00-05-31 22:44:55 EDT, you write: << Did the PRR or the Reading service Allan Wood Steel in Conshohocken PA? What was the name of Phoenix Steel in Claymont Delaware in the late 50's and who serviced it? >> Both the PRR and the RDG served Allan Wood. The RDG from their mainline directly and the PRR from a branch that connected with the Trenton Cutoff. The PRR had a middle siding at Howellville on the cutoff called the westbound back off siding. This siding was in fact a 1 mile long crossover. Since the PRR could only access the branch to the plant from the EB main this siding was used for WB trains to drop off their AWS traffic so the local from Thorndale could pick it up on it's EB move to the branch. The plant ceased operations in 1977 I believe. The coke works lasted about another ten years. Some of the rolling mills on the north bank of the river are still being operated by Beth/Lukens. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:02:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] EMD PRR F5's Stu, Bill and listers, I actually wonder if those that say the Pennsy did not have F5's know the spotting features of the F 5 if they saw a photo of one? Could they really tell? Let me quote David Peck and Roger Boor in their article in Mainline Modeler Jan/Feb 1982, "EMD very quickly lost the unique designation of F 2 and later F 5. F2's became F-3's, F5's later became F-7's; however that doesn't necessarily mean the units were rebuilt or changed from their original F 2 or F 5 configuration." This article and the proceeding articles were very comprehensive studies on the F-units not meant to duplicate the work that Extra 2200 South had done on the subject almost ten years prior. What are the spotting features of the F 5 and how are they different from the F 3, can anyone tell me how to tell from a picture? I can't and I am doing an incredible amount of research on the EMD F-UINTS for several up coming articles. Some Pennsy, some not. With the information I have gathered and the photo research on the F 5 (and I will tell you some of the prettiest F5's were the Rio Grande units #5561(A), 5562(B), 5563(B), 5564(A)) I cannot tell from a picture, but you can from the builders dates and if you were a diesel mechanic you could because the changes were inside, an upgraded generator and F 3 traction motors. Tell me again how to spot them in a photo of a Pennsy engine on the high Iron at 40 MPH, please. From the numbers... It is pointless to try to model the difference in an F 3 phase 4 and the F 5... four 36" diameter fans, twin parallel dynamic brake screened vents, horizontal stainless grills, and most important delivered from late in September 1948 to late in January and early February 1949. That makes the following units F5's: 9542 thru 9555 inclusive and 9679 thru 9689 inclusive. Hey wait, I was told by an expert that Pennsy did not buy F5's though? Yea right... I'm no expert and I am not always right [but my wife is 3^) ] but I did a little research on the subject. The information is out there if you know where to look. And I think, but I will not swear to the fact that some of the last F5's received a 36" diameter fan in place of the dynamic brake exhaust vents, but I need to recheck my color EMD builders photo and get back to you guys. Just remember to do the research and don't take one persons word on a subject, form your own conclusions. I only wish that in all the archives out there someone would have had enough brains to save a few Purchase Orders from the Motive Power guys during the transition period. So if you want to model an F 5, then pick one of the above numbers and buy a Stewart F 3 phase 4 shell (s) (from your dealer) and pick up a the matching number of Bachmann Plus F 7 B-units from Train World (10 bucks plus shipping) slap them babies together and for about 30 bucks or less you can have a Pennsy F 5 that runs almost as good as a KATO (some say as good, check the reviews in RMJ) and laugh all the way to the bank... Greg Martin mostly a rivet counter, sometimes not ... but Outlawed by NMRA Cajon Div ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:07:54 -0400 From: demcneil Subject: [PRR] RE: Window trim on a T1 Sam, I can't answer for the J1 and all T1's, but on 6110 the window trim appears to be aluminum or stainless steel. This is based on the full page builder's photo in color at Eddystone found on page 14 of Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World Vol. 1 bu Plant & Yanosey. That picture and the following page are simply the best color pictures I've seen of any "NEW" power. The rest of the painted trim and lettering appears to be "Dulux Gold" . This is the scheme with the 4 stripes on the tender and the large encircled Keystone at the back end of the tender. Hope this helps, Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:26:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR F5's a factory designation, not PRR's. In a message dated 5/30/2000 3:47:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Anyone who attended the GP session at the PRRT&HS Convention was witness to what almost became a fight!>> A very near miss. This discussion/argument unfortunately broke out during the presentation on GP7's and GP's. Immediately after the slide show ended, a spot near my chair was the site of an encounter between those eager souls who "knew" the Pennsy had no F-5's, and those who "knew" they did.... << An attendee was claiming that the PRR had F5's. The speaker claimed otherwise, that the PRR had only F-3's and F-7's. The attendee claimed that the engineers at EMD referred internally to the Phase III F-3's as F-5's. Who knows who is right, but I found it interesting that in Sweetland's new book one of the captions makes the same claim almost verbatim!!! >> As all involved discovered within a few hours, Sweetland's book accurately points out F-5 as a "manufacturing and engineering" designation, meaningful inside the plant. But this means that EMD sales people, customer railroads, and quite possibly EMD field service people would NOT use the F-5 moniker. A simple test -- have you ever seen an EMD operator's manual for an F-5? I haven't. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the F-5 is a minor variant of the phase four F-3. If I understand correctly, the higher-capacity-design F-7 traction motors were ready early, and were shipped on a bunch of F-3's, making them F-5's to the factory (but not necessarily anyone else). What this means to us is that a batch of the F-3 helpers that PRR bought and called EH-15's were actually running around with a better traction motor. Since the units still had 567B prime movers and the usual F-3 traction generator, it's questionable whether this meant anything performance-wise. Perhaps there was a lower rate of traction motor failure. But this was mainly an opportunity to get the new traction motor tested out in the field. 4. I don't have a late enough Form 109, but it would be interesting to know if this variance in traction motor was even tracked in PRR's motive power records. 5. I decline to join the argument as to whether these PRR "F-5" units were externally distinguishable from their straight F-3 bretheren, but I will repeat the caution that a picture of a unit is your best friend. As always, EMD made most detail changes when they were ready to, not necessarily at the time of a major model changeover. Model changeovers are almost always built around a major "guts" change (prime mover, generator, electrical cabinet), and we're just lucky that this often means a different capacity radiator or some other "styling" change that's externally obvious. 6. By the time the participants in this verbal near-brawl had chewed over all the facts at hand (a process which went on into the next day), I think we all realized we were on the same page -- the F-5 was very real to the folks at the EMD factory (LaGrange Illinois), but not to the customer. Also, I was happy to know that diesel enthusiasts are alive and well in the PRRT&HS -- now if we can just get some of the participants to do more Keystone articles on the diesel fleet. Rick Tipton Who once went to school (and roomed) with engineering coop students from EMD. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Window trim on a T1 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:46:30 EDT I thought that it was kinda gold/silver color, But wasn't sure. Thanks to all that responded. Sam >From: demcneil >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] RE: Window trim on a T1 >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:07:54 -0400 > >Sam, > >I can't answer for the J1 and all T1's, but on 6110 the window trim >appears to be aluminum or stainless steel. This is based on the full >page builder's photo in color at Eddystone found on page 14 of >Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World Vol. 1 bu Plant & Yanosey. >That picture and the following page are simply the best color pictures >I've seen of any "NEW" power. The rest of the painted trim and lettering >appears to be "Dulux Gold" . This is the scheme with the 4 stripes on >the tender and the large encircled Keystone at the back end of the >tender. >Hope this helps, >Dave McNeil > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDGbuff@webtv.net (FrancisinSunbury) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:52:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Northern Division Basically live right beside the tracks. While I am a RDG fan, I am very interested in the PRR as it crossed the RDG in Sunbury and they sometimes ran side by side. What are you looking to see. Traffic is sometimes irregular. Both PRR and RDG (1st electrically lighted in world) have been saved. They are used by businesses but basically refurbished original exteriors. Sunbury is very easy to ge around in as most streets are laid out N/S and E/W. Will have more tonight. Hope to run into yo as I can tell you a lot abot what was and where it was. Francis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: [PRR] Baltimore Steel Mill Questions Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:26:35 -0400 What was the name of the Armco Steel Co. works near Sparrows Point Maryland and who serviced it? There where/are two facilities directly adjacent to the NEC in east Baltimore. Leaving Penn Station northbound (east) and exiting the Union tunnels, about 3-5 miles north side of tracks was Armco at the top of the grade that descended into Orangeville and Bayview yard. They had a small yard off the southbound main. Most of that facility is gone today, but some remnants still remain. They had several mills and an electric furnace(s). It was served directly by the PRR with a number of spurs serving adjacent industries. Although the B&O is close by, I am not sure if it served this plant. The second plant was at the north end of Bayview yard. This is still standing and I think still in production; also an electric furnace shop. There is a scrape yard just off the road near the car repair facility in Bayview. Up here too is the branch that was later built down to the Sparrows Point area; I don't know the date that this branch was built. I don't know much about the switching of this plant, but I do know that the Canton Railroad served it. I am not sure if there was an interchange between the PRR and Canton in this area. The local area is called Eastpoint. Please let me know if anyone knows more of this area and can fill in the gaps or correct my "impression" Later... Conan Evans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Northern Division Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:23:44 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCBBB.D8885740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank You Mark, Ike, Jerry and Rick. This Pennsy trip started with the idea that I would take my wife up to = the Grand Canyon area of Northern Pennsylvania...the Wellsboro area. My = wife was gracious enough to allow some time and days in searching for = regions the Pennsylvania Railroad served. Since we will be in = Harrisburg...I'll get a chance to check out Enola and the new bridge up = near Interstate 81. And then, we're off up 11-15 to the area of = Selinsgrove, Sunbury...and on up to Williamsport. We'll spend some time = up at the 'Grand Canyon' before heading over to Lock Haven...and over to = Renovo then back down the Bald Eagle Branch into Altoona. I would have = loved to do this back in 1952!!!! I'll try to keep in touch with = everyone. taking a digital cam corder...and a 35 mm camera...see what I = can come up with. It is really nice to have a motor home that can tow a = car...! And I believe that if you are going to model a region of the = Pennsy...it is much better to explore the region to get a feel of the = region. Regards, Bob Holden. PRRT&HS 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCBBB.D8885740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank You Mark, Ike, Jerry and Rick.
This Pennsy trip started with the idea that I would take my wife up = to the=20 Grand Canyon area of Northern Pennsylvania...the Wellsboro area. My wife = was=20 gracious enough to allow some time and days in searching for = regions  the=20 Pennsylvania Railroad served. Since we will be in Harrisburg...I'll get = a chance=20 to check out Enola and the new bridge up near Interstate 81. And then, = we're off=20 up 11-15 to the area of Selinsgrove, Sunbury...and on up to = Williamsport. We'll=20 spend some time up at the 'Grand Canyon' before heading over to Lock = Haven...and=20 over to Renovo then back down the Bald Eagle Branch into Altoona. I = would have=20 loved to do this back in 1952!!!! I'll try to keep in touch with = everyone.=20 taking a digital cam corder...and a 35 mm camera...see what I can come = up with.=20 It is really nice to have a motor home that can tow a car...! And I = believe that=20 if you are going to model a region of the Pennsy...it is much better to = explore=20 the region to get a feel of the region.
Regards, Bob Holden. PRRT&HS 5044
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCBBB.D8885740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:49:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] F3-F5-F7 Boondogle Jerry, Greg & folks, Funny Jerry should mention the new Sweetland book the other day, as I had just picked it up last saturday, and also noticed the F5 remark in a photo caption. The further mention of an argument (you can't really dignify those encounters as "discussions") that almost erupted into a fight and carried into the next day also rang a familar bell. Even though Pennsy lists and gatherings seem somehow more genial than most, seems they can get pretty bad too. These endless disputes over petty, or even non-existant, points (isn't the term "phase" strictly a railfan invention anyway?)are one of the main reasons I studiously avoid most fan gatherings, fantrips and public shows, as well as email lists. (Again let me mention a far higher than average standard that seems to prevail in things Pennsy. The B&O list is pretty decent, too, as is the Reading). But boy oh boy does it get old, and after fourty odd years of modeling/fanning I still can't comprehend it. You oughta see and hear the GN vs NP crowd some alcohol-enhanced evening....you'd think Pennsy and NYC were the best of affiliates! Oh well, guess that's what friends are for, so ya got someone to hang with and stay out of these fanatical frays. Hang in there guys. Say, just what color were firemen's bandanas on the second Millville local in July, '54 anyway..... Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:55:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Northern Division Bob, When you're in Williamsport, you Have to stay at the Thomas Lightfoot Inn. Unless the rates have really gone up, it's a bargain, and a great resturant to boot. Also make a trip to the Bowser hobby shop in Montoursville, in "suburban" Williamsport. That old inn will make your wife happy, to be sure Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: RE: [PRR] Northern Division Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:25:11 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BFCBC4.6EA1F6C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Take lots a film * In Sunbury you will want to go to the middle of town and get a picture of where the railroad came through the middle of town. You will also want to see where the PRR and the Reading had a diamond crossing. You can find it because the old Reading Railroad bridge over the Susquehanna will come into Sunbury. Follow it and you will see where they use to cross. The PRR I still believe goes out of Sunbury northeast towards Shamokin. It will follow Rt61 eventually. Go to the North end of town and you can find where the railroad goes. * You can go to the north end of town and also see where the PRR crosses the Susquehanna from Sunbury into Northumberland. Be sure you go to the old PRR Railroad Passenger station in Northumberland. They have an old passenger car and I believe a N5C caboose there. Both are fully restored. There is a restaurant there that you can also eat at. There is hardly anything left to the old yard at Northumberland and it is hard to get pictures due to the overgrowth of vegetation. * Follow the road out of Northumberland along the river that parallels the river till you get to I-180. Get on I-180 and go to the Watsontown exit. Got to Watsontown, the PRR made stops there. Some interesting things there to photograph. I am not quite sure but you may cross a track that goes northeast. Conrail used this line for a while. I don’t think that it is used now and I am not quite sure where it goes. I will research it and get back to you. I have the info at home and I am not there right now. * Continue up to Williamsport on RT 11/15. Now when you get to South Williamsport, the PRR stayed on this track and only went over to Williamsport if it was a passenger or was to set off cars at Newberry to interchanged with the NYC or Reading. Erie Lackawanna also came into there. There is very little evidence of the PRR in Williamsport. The train station is gone as are most of the tracks. There is a single main track that goes through Willliamsport down by the river and cuts up through town to Newberry. It’s a shame Williamsport was laid out neat for the railroad and the passengers had to back into the station. * If you do continue up to Renovo you may want to go up “Old RT 220” I believe it is now named RT150. it will take you to Jersey Shore. Here you can get a picture of the Train Station in town and the railroad line still goes through there. The tracks are accessible and the cutoff up Pine Creek that the New York Central used is accessible. Thought the tracks are gone the roadbed is there. Was double tracked all the way to Wellsboro. They turned the roadbed into a rails to trails path. The old line out of Kersey Shore is now privately owned and was once part of the New York Central. * Then you may want to double back to take RT220 out of Williamsport and go to Lock Haven. When you cross the Susquehanna you will see where the NYC crosses the PRR. A little farther up and you will see where the NYC and the PRR interchange. Not much left in Lock Haven. Small yard and the interchange with the Bald Eagle Line. I am not sure haw many coal unit trains are coming up that way now. Suppose to be around 8 to 12 a day. * Continue up Rt 120 and 28 miles later you will come to Renovo. Nothing there as far as track. Single main line through and on the west end they keep some engines for breakdowns or additional power. The shops are there and are owned by the county. There are a bunch of Conrail cabooses in the yard. The guy who owns them wanted to rebuild them and sell them as cabins. Never really got started. I think he wants to get rid of them but I don’t know that for sure. Everything is posted but I don’t think anybody will bother you if you are taking pictures. Don’t go on the old foot bridge across the tracks. It is rotted out real bad. If a train ever goes on the ground through there or the bridge falls because of vibrations it will take out half of the the stores there on Eire Ave. They exchange crews on the east end of the town. The crews lay over at the sportsman tavern. If you talk to them they can tell you the train schedule of arrivals. * From Renovo you can get to Altoona by going over PA 144 to Rt 220 or continue up to Driftwood and go into Clearfield and then to Altoona. The PRR follows the river to Sinnemahoning creek and the NYC wyes off to Clearfield there. You can get some pictures there too. Well I hope that gives you some help. I have some land outside of Renovo and will be going up the week of the 20th I think. Depends upon the kids and school. If you want more info give a shout Good hunting Wayne F. Dibert 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of rholden Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:54 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Northern Division Good Evening...Jerry, and everyone. Gonna be heading next week up through Sunbury and over through Williamsport...eventually gonna try to get over to Renovo and then back down to Horseshoe Curve...and I'd be real interested if any of you guys who reside in these areas...particularly the Williamsport and Sunbury area to know where I can find traces of the PRR to photograph? I'm pretty familiar with the Curve...but I have never been to Sunbury or Williamsport...any suggestions? Regards All. Bob Holden. PRRT&HS # 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BFCBC4.6EA1F6C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ta= ke lots a film

 

  • In= Sunbury you will want to go to the middle of town and get a picture = of where the railroad came through the middle of town. You will also = want to see where the PRR and the Reading had a diamond crossing. You can = find it because the old Reading Railroad bridge over the Susquehanna will = come into Sunbury. Follow it and you will see where they use to cross. The = PRR I still believe goes out of Sunbury northeast towards Shamokin. It = will follow Rt61 eventually. Go to the North end of town and you can = find where the railroad goes.
  • Yo= u can go to the north end of town and also see where the PRR crosses = the Susquehanna from Sunbury into Northumberland. Be sure you go to the old PRR = Railroad Passenger station in Northumberland. They have an old passenger car = and I believe a N5C caboose there. Both are fully restored. There is a = restaurant there that you can also eat at. There is hardly anything left to = the old yard at Northumberland and it is hard to get pictures due to the = overgrowth of vegetation.
  • Fo= llow the road out of Northumberland along the river that parallels the = river till you get to I-180. Get on I-180 and go to the Watsontown exit. = Got to Watsontown, the PRR made stops there. Some interesting things there = to photograph. I am not quite sure but you may cross a track that goes northeast. Conrail used this line for a while. I don’t think = that it is used now and I am not quite sure where it goes. I will research it = and get back to you. I have the info at home and I am not there right = now.
  • Co= ntinue up to Williamsport on RT 11/15. Now when you get to South = Williamsport, the PRR stayed on this track and only went over to Williamsport if = it was a passenger or was to set off cars at Newberry to interchanged with = the NYC or Reading. Erie Lackawanna also came into there. There is very = little evidence of the PRR in Williamsport. The train station is gone as are most = of the tracks. There is a single main track that goes through Willliamsport down = by the river and cuts up through town to Newberry. It’s a shame = Williamsport was laid out neat for the railroad and the passengers had to back into = the station.
  • If= you do continue up to Renovo you may want to go up “Old RT = 220” I believe it is now named RT150. it will take you to Jersey Shore. Here you can = get a picture of the Train Station in town and the railroad line still = goes through there. The tracks are accessible and the cutoff up Pine Creek that = the New York Central used is accessible. Thought the tracks are gone the = roadbed is there. Was double tracked all the way to Wellsboro. They turned the = roadbed into a rails to trails path. The old line out of Kersey Shore is = now privately owned and was once part of the New York Central. =
  • Th= en you may want to double back to take RT220 out of Williamsport and go to = Lock Haven. When you cross the Susquehanna you  will see where the NYC crosses the PRR. A little = farther up and you will see where the NYC and the PRR interchange. Not much = left in Lock Haven. Small yard and the interchange with the Bald Eagle = Line. I am not sure haw many coal unit trains are coming up that way now. = Suppose to be around 8 to 12 a day.
  • Co= ntinue up Rt 120 and 28 miles later you will come to Renovo. Nothing there = as far as track. Single main line through and on the west end they keep = some engines for breakdowns or additional power. The shops are there and = are owned by the county. There are a bunch of Conrail cabooses in the = yard. The guy who owns them wanted to rebuild them and sell them as = cabins. Never really got started. I think he wants to get rid of them but I = don’t know that for sure. Everything is posted but I don’t think = anybody will bother you if you are taking pictures. Don’t go on the old = foot bridge across the tracks. It is rotted out real bad. If a train ever goes on the = ground through there or the bridge falls because of vibrations it will = take out half of the the stores there on Eire Ave. They exchange crews on the = east end of the town. The crews lay over at the sportsman tavern. If you = talk to them they can tell you the train schedule of arrivals. =
  • Fr= om Renovo you can get to Altoona by going over PA 144 to Rt 220 or continue = up to Driftwood and go into Clearfield and then to Altoona. The PRR = follows the river to Sinnemahoning creek and the NYC wyes off to Clearfield there. = You can get some pictures there too.

 

We= ll I hope that gives you some help. I have some land outside of Renovo and will be = going up the week of the 20th I think. Depends upon the kids and = school. If you want more info give a shout

 

Go= od hunting

 

Wayne F. Dibert

102016.1343@worldnet.att.net

<= span class=3DEmailStyle15> 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of rholden
Sent: Thursday, June 01, = 2000 12:54 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Northern = Division

 

Good Evening...Jerry, and everyone.<= /p>

 <= /p>

Gonna be heading next week up through Sunbury and over through = Williamsport...eventually gonna try to get over to Renovo and then back down to Horseshoe = Curve...and I'd be real interested if any of you guys who reside in these = areas...particularly the Williamsport and Sunbury area to know where I can find traces of the = PRR to photograph? I'm pretty familiar with the Curve...but I have never been = to Sunbury or Williamsport...any suggestions?<= /p>

 <= /p>

Regards All.<= /p>

 <= /p>

Bob Holden.<= /p>

PRRT&HS # 5044

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BFCBC4.6EA1F6C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:52:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] Baltimore Steel Mill Hello Conan, The plant just above the Bayview carshops was Eastern Stainless Steel, now under a different name (I think it is Avista now). The Canton RR serves this plant. To the best of my knowledge, the Canton does not interchange with the NEC at Eastpoint. Yes, the PRR had a spur that went to Sparrows Point from this area, which is still in use. Hope this helps. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] How Black is Black? Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:14:26 EDT Remember, Pennsy men would refer to a freshly out shopped unites as being "a fresh coat of varnish" which tells you that a! > repainted unit was not likely repainted but more often re-varnished. >Once the varnish was re-applied to a cleaned locomotive that had been wiped >with "hot water,oil soap and kerosene" the orginal color could be >established with a coat of varnish. _______________________________________ In fact, on a railfan trip in 1953 to Enola out of D.C., E8's were coupled on at Harrisburg for the ride across the Bridge and over to Enola. While at Harrisburg, I got a real close look at the diesels. They had just been varnished, perhaps the day before. The surface was still a bit tacky. I could see the dark red paint with variations in color, meaning it had been on there a while and had oxidized in some areas, then there were tell-tale specks of insects, grime, and dents from small stones tossed by passing trains at high speed, and an obvious effort to get rid of most of this through a pressure washer, followed by a coat of clear varnish. I even remember the smell of it--sort of like spar varnish--the kind that never really dries. Andrew Harmantas, loading up the car even now for the day-long drive to Strasburg for RR artists Weekend at the RR musuem. See you there. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDGbuff@webtv.net (FrancisinSunbury) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:58:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Northern Division I think my earlier message definetly needs some editing. I left out that they are PRR & RDG "stations". Also, some very trivial misspellings. You mentioned Selinsgrove. There are two bridges and a wye between the main street and the river. !st leg - comes from Sunbury(eastern side) of the river 2nd leg - heads norh to a power plant 3rd leg - heads west to (on other side of main street) a station and then further on to grain elevator and I believe Kreamer (couple of miles) Sunbury Perusing another letter, the old Reading Bridge is gone. Opening in flood wall closed in. Only the abutment on Sunbury side left. SF tower and crossin gone. The North Shore has a connection between the old PRR main and the old Reading main that was left intact on the east side of Third Street. This line runs on the old RDG main for a while and then uses the old PRR main further on to get to Shamokin. (Basically the PRR track was a branch but ran sometimes right along the RDG on the way. They crossed Shamokin Creek side-by-side.) North end of town has a one-story concrete tower(now maintenance???) named KASE. CP Rail diverges/converges here. Island Park Between Sunbury and Northumberland (Norry locally). The rr bridges on both sides of the island I think are neat. One set has bridge built on piers adjacent and attached to old piers on north side. Other on the south side. There was a previous bridge there at one time. Northumberland The station has two passenger cars under roof, and a Keystone in upper brickwork on track side. If you walk down tracks towards river (east) and walkover highway overpass a line bears north. This is the North Shore (ex-DL&W,E-L). They usually have a few cars there. The North Shore itself has its' headquarters at the old DL&W station. When you first come into Norry, take first right. Can't miss. That is where the caboose is that was restored. I have had the privilege of riding the back platform from Sunbury to Paxinos and back (12 miles). Their power changes. Their own engine in E-L colors, Wellsboro & Corning, Lycoming Valley, Lewisburg & ??? and even the ex-P&S bi-centennial units. I believe they are all repainted. Didn't mention Norry Yards. Depends, sometimes very strict. Watsontown Other letter mentioned a line tat they weren't sure of. I believe it goes to a power plant in Washingtonville. Conrail used to run a "brown" caboose on the unit train on that line. ONE misspelling for sure. Have fun. Lot more little things that show te past. Ah! Growing up with double track,locals,businesses,spurs(sidings) and the PRR freight platforms and RDG freight station. Didn't even mention the horn and Mount Carmel ore trains or the wye in Sunbury. Francis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:28:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steam Roster Project From: Jerry Britton Folks: I'm pleased to report that 100% of the data has been input for Phase I of the searchable steam roster project on "Keystone Crossings"! I just need to tweak the HTML search forms and then Phase I will be complete. Phase I includes only two fields of data: road number and class. So, you can enter a road number and see all the classes that bore that number, or you can search by class and get a list of road numbers. Phase II will be done by the end of the summer. It adds hundreds of photos of various locos, many with location information. Phase III is a distributed project and I still need your help. It involves indexing numerous published texts on PRR steam. Each road number's record will involve a reference list to published photographs. There are many common books for which nobody has volunteered to index yet. If you can spare some time, please see http://kc.pennsyrr.com/steamdataentry.html TRIVIA: How many PRR steam locomotive road number "uses"* were there? * "uses" means that if one locomotive was renumbered twice, for a total of three numbers, it would count as three "uses". --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Northern Division/PRR Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:13:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFCBDB.FBB9D700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can you imagine what a nice wife I have that would allow me search out = remnents of the 'Standard Railroad of the World'! We are fortunate to = have a nice motor home in which to make this journey. Although this is = not 1952...I am looking forward to seeing the towns that the Pennsy = served so well for so long. I grew up in Baltimore...and saw mostly = varnish...but no steam...and few PRR freights, unless they bypassed Penn = Station. But I believe the Middle and Northern Division were the heart = and soul of the Pennsylvania Railroad (No offense to those other = regions). As each day goes by...a little bit more of the Pennsy is = dismantled...and I look forward of exploring a little bit of what = remains. Either way, I end up at Horseshoe Curve...and when I'm = there...if I just close my eyes for a minute...isn't that a J-1 = coming...or a T-1 pulling the 'Broadway Limited'!!! Regards Everyone...and I have printed everything you guys were gracious = enough to put together for me! Bob Holden, PRRT&HS 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFCBDB.FBB9D700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can you imagine what a nice wife I have that would = allow me=20 search out remnents of the 'Standard Railroad of the World'! We are = fortunate to=20 have a nice motor home in which to make this journey. Although this is = not=20 1952...I am looking forward to seeing the towns that the Pennsy served = so well=20 for so long. I grew up in Baltimore...and saw mostly varnish...but no=20 steam...and few PRR freights, unless they bypassed Penn Station. But I = believe=20 the Middle and Northern Division were the heart and soul of the = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad (No offense to those other regions). As each day goes by...a = little bit=20 more of the Pennsy is dismantled...and I look forward of exploring a = little bit=20 of what remains. Either way, I end up at Horseshoe Curve...and when I'm=20 there...if I just close my eyes for a minute...isn't that a J-1 = coming...or a=20 T-1 pulling  the 'Broadway Limited'!!!
 
Regards Everyone...and I have printed everything you guys were = gracious=20 enough to put together for me!
Bob Holden, PRRT&HS 5044
 
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFCBDB.FBB9D700-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:11:06 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PRR scales Looking at the lists of locations of track scales in the 1923 CT1000. Several scales in the hard coal region are listed as being equiped with "double gross beam". What does "double gross beam" mean? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:51:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Clip Art Found a web page today that some of you may know about that has PRR clip art. There are a couple of GG1's an S2. The site is www.ribbonrail.com/art. The entire site is RR related clip art for downloading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:28:28 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steel Mill Questions Hi all... I've been reading the posts and forgot about the small plant near Bay View yard. It was'nt very large. There was one spur heading north from the north-eastern side of the yard to the plant. The plant area itself was about only two city blocks square. Its up on a slight hill above the north end of the yard. PRR was the only railroad to service this plant. There used to be a small shopping center(later state offices) and a Chevy dealer (Luby Chervolet?) to the east of it facing Eastern Ave. The PRR Bay View spur to Beth steel's plant ran behind this plant and crossed Eastern Ave. near it. During the 1970's there used to be a old heavyweight Pullman sleeper (was formerly owned by the U.S.Army) and a old Western Maryland heavyweight RPO inside the plant property,but not used by the plant. They both were there for years rusting away. Both are now gone and may have gone to the B&O museum. As for the plant off the NEC closer to town,I have no idea what the local name was for it.But i do recall "Armco" painted on the mill buildings in large letters facing the tracks for years. As far as i know the PRR was the only railroad to service this plant too,as the B&O's main line is way over on the other side of a hill north of this plant. If you head north from Rte.40 toward this plant on Edison Hwy you had a city park to the left and the former city dump to the right, then you crossed the NEC main and the main plant was on the right. From here still heading north was a few small factories on the right and a residential area to the left. You will be heading up hill the whole time. Just before reaching the B&O main you will see the back side of the "Baltimore Cemetery". I think a gas station was on the right just across from it.The B&O main was in a cut thru the hill(western end goes thru several small tunnel before crossing the NEC main near Penn station and heading into the Howard st. tunnel to downtown. The PRR interchanged with the Canton RR just east of the interharbor and near the I-895 harbor tunnel bridges and tunnel entrance. The Canton railroad was a small switching and terminal RR in the Canton section (East Baltimore near the Harbor) of Baltimore. The PRR might have had a controlling interest in this railroad...don't know. They also interchanged with the B&O in this area too. The PRR had a large yard near the water front in this area.This yard was built by the Northern Central Rwy before this RR was later leased by the PRR. Later a large Chevy plant was built just to the East of this yard and both the PRR and B&O serviced this plant. PRR's main coal pier in Baltimore was located here too. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:42:09 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Hello list, This will probably ignite a firestorm of flames; please forgive my biases. I've noticed that a lot of folks on the list have home layouts, and so are most interested in running said layout. I really envy you guys, and I can easily see your point of view. For folks building a layout, it's usually easier to take a completed engine out of the box and place it on the track. My grandfather is one of these folks. We have a symbiotic relationship; I build kits, and he runs the completed product. I am without a layout. On top of this, I like to build kits. If I had my druthers, I'd buy all of my steamers this way. I would be the first to admit that my priorities would probably change if I were building a home layout. I would hope that Bowser's new J1 will be a kit, though I will probably buy one either way. I'm hoping that if and when Bowser rereleases the G5s, that it will also be a kit. I cannot argue the virtues of plastic for duplicating detail, but I would argue that it's hard to beat zinc for electrical contact at the rail and for traction. I believe that Bowser's steamers are nice layout quality models, and that the market for PRR steam is probably too small to support competitors. The K4s, which has two manufacturers, is, perhaps, the only exception. I would, however, love to see resin boilers for a K2s/K3s, and I would cheerfully give a large portion of my internal organs for a 110P75a tender. In the 60s, Cary did many boilers in lead before it became too expensive to do so; resin would, I think, make this viable again. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:32:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Along the main In a message dated 5/30/2000 4:54:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BBReynolds writes: > the passenger station is a good prototype for those who have Pennsylvania > Station New York asperations Sorry, could not let that misspelled word stay online without correction: aspirations. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Doug, Well said. Opinions count. I myself purchase both ways. There is really no ready to run PRR Steamer or Diesel out there. There is always some PRR detail to add or change to be more loco specific. Even Brass locos. There always seems to be something that needs changed or improved upon ie: details or paint. As for the Bowser J, I am speculating here, but with the Chineese involved, I suspect a "ready to run" Loco. And if so, I expect to add or change something on that one too....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:10:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Doug and all, There's a lot of truth in what you've said about kit vs RTR. For the many years I didn't have a place for a layout, I thought nothing of building complex and time-consuming kits, kitbashing and even scatchbuilding.. At least I had a lot of rolling stock and structures ready to go when I was building my first major layout. But now, working on my "for the foreseeable future" layout, I've done what would have been unthinkable even a few years ago: abandoned some layout space. Instead of 75% of the basement I've withdrawn to about 60% of the land area. I'm getting older, and if I ever want to reach a decent level of completeness, my priorities really had to be defined down. My first Westerfield kit, an X25 auto car, took me probably 12 hours, minimum, and it's not even painted. To be sure, the next one would be much faster, and I have some in my stash. But I figure for the same 12-15 hours for one car I could have laid out an entire yard or probably 50 feet of plywood roadbed complete with risers. I still love building kits, kitbashing Pullmans and decaling. But most of that's temporarily on the back burner. Meanwhile I've got a railroad and an HO city to build. While it's possible , of course, to have a large and fully detailed layout populated by a fleet of superdetailed engines and cars, for most of us that's a long-off dream. Four feet of trackage laid in a brick street took me almost a week of evenings, but it sure whet my appitite for more of the same! Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Re: northern division Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:13:51 -0700 Bob, If you want to see an old PRR shop complex, stop at Renovo! Renovo has one of the last, if not the last, coaling towers of the PRR still extant in Pa. More so it has many of its' appliances still on it! The boiler shop , at least part of it, dates to "1865". The office complex, power plant, blacksmith shop, paint shop, wood working shop, transfer table, hump weigh house, light tower, a couple of N5s in MOW gray, and blue Conrail cabins, a PRR MOW converted heavyweight were there last I visited. Take plenty of pictures as I have heard report some of the buildings are slated to be razed. --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:46:25 -0700 The original factory color for that era on that line was a bright red, except in the case of senior fireman who were near, within a few months, of becoming actual engineers who were allowed to, but not required to, wear blue, a deep blue to be technically correct. However it should be noted that in most photos this red often appears darker and more often lighter red. The reason for this is the type of film of that era and the color changes that invariably occur to film over the years. There are a host of other factors that affect the shade of red. I.e. weather the fireman was in the cab in the shade or in bright light when the photo was taken. Also the color was affected by the type of coal that was used in the engine. The better quality coal because of its' more thorough burning quality would not leave as much ash in the exhaust smoke and hence the bandana was a brighter color. In regions of poorer coal the bandanas were a darker red leaning towards almost black but not an actual black. So as you see it is important to know the region you are modeling. Probably one area that has received the least attention is the respective "shop" were the bandana was serviced. For example some wives, mothers, girlfriends or in rare cases non-union workers in laundry shops used various different detergents and machines or handtools for cleaning the bandanas. Hence a well serviced bandana that had seen machined washing and factory laundry detergent would retain its brilliant red much longer than say one that was serviced by hand on a washboard with plain old lye soap. In either case nearly all of the heavily used ones eventually faded to a lighter red except of course in the case poor coal regions were they tended to be dark even after "shopping". So as you can see it is a complex question, before you even ask about which paint manufacturer has the best paint for your situation. In the era, and region you mentioned I would just go with plain old red! To tell the truth though, I have never researched the clothing line to find out what the actual dye color was! Perhaps the PRRT&HS could come out with a color chip for this. --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JWTrains@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:22:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] (PRR) PRR F5's??? I felt that I should respond to the F5 E-Mail's because I was the fellow that put on the clinic on GP-7's and GP-9's at the PRRT&HS Convention. I have the complete parts catalogs for first generation diesels and nowhere in any of these catalogs is any reference made to a F5. They only refer to replacement parts for FT's, F2's, F3's, F7's, FP7's and FP9's. This was the basis of my argument. I decided to look at these catalogs again and I did find something that might clear up some of this argument. In Volumn 2, Catalog No. 90 they list all the railroads that bought F units up through April, 1954. This section covers the original pilots and replacement pilots, the original EMD Production Order and Locomotive Model Numbers. Again, no Model F5 was listed as being produced. Something I did find was that EMD's Order No. E-1080 was for both F3's and F7's. Maybe, and I am only speculating that the portion of F7's built with Order No. E-1080 were the ones that EMD's engineering department called F5's. Again, only speculating! I have listed below the complete EMD Production Order and Locomotive Model Numbers for all F, FP and E units as given in the catalog mentioned above. Order No. Model No. Order No. Model No. E-843 F3 E-3037 F7 E-863 F3 E-3038 F7 E-896 F3 E-3051 F7 E-921 F3 E-3066 FP7 E-922 F3 E-3144 F7 E-1004 F3 E-671 E7 E-1021 F3 E-745 E7 E-1080 F3 E-864 E7 E-1080 F7 E-1113 E7 E-1108 F3 E-2054 E8 E-1138 F3 E-6079 E8 E-1144 F7 E-6181 E8 E-1221 F7 E-6354 E8 E-3025 F7 Before someone catches the discrepancy please note that in Mr Sweetland's latest PRR book, he shows EMD Order No. E-864 was for F3's #9506A-9517A. The catalog shows this as an order for E7's. Also, his reference to Order No. 1080 was for only F3's. I hope this is informational and my comments helpfull. Jim Williams ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 23:39:10 -0400 From: ERIC LAUTERBACH Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam The new plastic steam seems to be a lot more amenable to modification with all the seperate parts. So they can be detailed for a particular engine fairly easy. I would also think that a RTR engine would sell more to the general railroad population then a kit. Don't think that just pennsy fans will buy this locomotive. While not on the level of the K4, this engine is well liked in the non SPF world. Besides it would be the only model of a 2-10-4 in plastic. I can honestly say that if Bowser comes out with this engine and it is comparable to their current kits then I would not likely buy any. I not only don't have time to build a kit amd really super detail an engine, but don't like the looks compared to my brass and newer plastic. I have a westside J that I bought for a song and I could not help but compare a new J to the brass J. My new plastic engines like the Life Like and Athearn look as good as brass. They don't appear to be toyish next the brass, but rather they appear on the level. Plus I have a fairly small layout, so the engines is a big focal point. Don't take this as an attack on Bowser. I have many Bowser freight cars and cabin cars that I am very pleased with. I also have quite a few Bowser engines, even with all the super detailing they look good but not as good as a Life Like or Spectrum engine straight out of the box. Just my 2 cents worth, Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:24:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR scales In a message dated 6/1/2000 3:19:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > What does "double gross beam" mean? > Venture a guess that it means the scale could weigh an entire car at one time, rather than one truck at a time. Just a guess, now, just a guess. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:24:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Thanx to Greg for his "stone-washed" review of bandana colors; he missed an extra element in distinguishing the color, which depends on whether the laundress hung the bandana up on the "Lines West" or the "Lines East" of her house. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv & Sylvie Brice" Subject: [PRR] How Black is Black Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:31:22 +1000 Listers, To all of you who responded to my question on DGLE, my thanks. Viv Brice, a Pennsy fan from Down Under ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 07:29:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Well, see, even with your extensive research into the matter, an all-important factor has been overlooked: How much does the fireman in question sweat? And does he wipe his face with it, use it for a napkin or tie it around his head Rambo-style or Jesse Ventura style? This one simple factor can throw all other calculations out the window. Guess it's best to use the color chips (and it was never called 'dark red'; it was always DRBD), and failing that to depend on historical study. Only as a last resort use photograpic evidence. After all, whaterya gonna trust: what you see or what someone tells ya? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:35:09 EDT Doug, I am right in you corner, I have no room to build a layout but I love to put together Steam kits. Amen to Bowser J1 KIT!!!! Sam Vastano >From: "doug.kisala" >To: "prr-talk@dsop.com" >Subject: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:42:09 -0500 > >Hello list, > >This will probably ignite a firestorm of flames; please forgive my >biases. > >I've noticed that a lot of folks on the list have home layouts, and so >are most interested in running said layout. I really envy you guys, and >I can easily see your point of view. For folks building a layout, it's >usually easier to take a completed engine out of the box and place it on >the track. > >My grandfather is one of these folks. We have a symbiotic relationship; >I build kits, and he runs the completed product. > >I am without a layout. On top of this, I like to build kits. If I had >my druthers, I'd buy all of my steamers this way. I would be the first >to admit that my priorities would probably change if I were building a >home layout. I would hope that Bowser's new J1 will be a kit, though I >will probably buy one either way. I'm hoping that if and when Bowser >rereleases the G5s, that it will also be a kit. I cannot argue the >virtues of plastic for duplicating detail, but I would argue that it's >hard to beat zinc for electrical contact at the rail and for traction. > >I believe that Bowser's steamers are nice layout quality models, and >that the market for PRR steam is probably too small to support >competitors. The K4s, which has two manufacturers, is, perhaps, the >only exception. > > I would, however, love to see resin boilers for a K2s/K3s, and I would >cheerfully give a large portion of my internal organs for a 110P75a >tender. In the 60s, Cary did many boilers in lead before it became too >expensive to do so; resin would, I think, make this viable again. > >Doug > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 07:57:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR F5's a factory designation, not PRR's. In a message dated 6/1/00 5:33:44 AM Mountain Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << 4. I don't have a late enough Form 109, but it would be interesting to know if this variance in traction motor was even tracked in PRR's motive power records. >> Rick and others, I would suspect that the difference was indeed made note of, and tracked. Whether the PRR did so by designating these units as F5's is not known. Officialy they may not have, but at shops, and service points the shop personel may have used the F5 designation as a way to highlight the fact that these "F3's" had different equipment in them. This would would most certainly help out the shop personel that would have to work on these units. Just a thought. We'll probably never know for sure. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 05:04:58 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Hi Doug and all, A couple of comments here regarding your comments about kits. First, let me say that I ahve nothing against kits...I have piles of 'em in the closet (someday I will finish that Bowser L1s and start on the rest of the green boxes just below it ;-) However, for today's modeler, rtr models will outsell kits by maybe 100 to 1. Look on the shelves of your favorite hobby shop and count the number of Westerfield kits...come back in a month and I'll be willing to bet that the number doesn't change much. A lot of people have too much disposable income and not enough time, along with a change in attitude that values quantity over quality. I think that the market would support a plastic rtr PRR locomotive...there are enough modelers out there with a Pennsy bent that it would sell. Doing what guys like Mike's Train House does in 3-rail O scale (if you've ever seen some of their latest models you will understand my use of the word scale) would be even better. I don't believe that resin boilers would work well for steam...not enough weight (I would love to be proved wrong), so the Cary approach is still viable. Incidentally, Cary's boilers are still around...made by (who else) Bowser, who picked up the line after the death of the founder. Some of their stuff is gone forever, made obsolete by the plethora of plastic diesel shells. (I wonder how their USRA MIke boiler is doing these days...) Doug, you might consider brass for your 110P75a...if you can find one of the old Red Ball K4s models it was equipped with one (the model is of one of the last 5 K4s locomotives built...the equivalent of the PFM version offered at the same time in the late 1960's). Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:04:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors You mean to tell me there wasn't a standard for these on the PRR or a company store where they had to be purchased? LOL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Northern Division! Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:42:21 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFCC76.D9EA9560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Francis...and thank you Greg! Greg...I must have just missed you...I live seven miles from Gettysburg! = Our motor home is a 1988 Heritage 1000...30 footer, with very low = miles...We love it...This trip has been evolving into more of an = exploration of regions served by the PRR. We never thought for a moment = that we would be up in Wellsboro walking on a trail which was a New York = Central connection. Looking forward to the trip and hope to take lots of = photographs and video especially interested in the Renovo area...and of = course coming down to Horseshoe Curve. Thanks guys...Bob Holden PRRT&HS # 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFCC76.D9EA9560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you Francis...and thank you Greg!
 
Greg...I must have just missed you...I live seven miles from = Gettysburg!=20 Our motor home is a 1988 Heritage 1000...30 footer, with very low = miles...We=20 love it...This trip has been evolving into more of an exploration of = regions=20 served by the PRR. We never thought for a moment that we would be up in=20 Wellsboro walking on a trail which was a New York Central connection. = Looking=20 forward to the trip and hope to take lots of photographs and video = especially=20 interested in the Renovo area...and of course coming down to Horseshoe=20 Curve.
Thanks guys...Bob Holden
PRRT&HS # 5044
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFCC76.D9EA9560-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:40:51 -0400 Barry Peltier, thinking he could remain annonomous by not signing his post, points out: "Guess it's best to use the color chips (and it was never called 'dark red'; it was always DRBD), and failing that to depend on historical study. Only as a last resort use photograpic evidence. After all, whaterya gonna trust: what you see or what someone tells ya?" Barry, I have never found any reference to DRBD (Dark Red Bandana Dye) in all my years of researching the PRR. I know this is a popular term that we all use regularly, but did Pennsy employees actually use it? There are numerous listings showing "Bandana Red", "Neckerchief Color" and even "Headwear Vermillion", but no DRBD to be found. I had heard that this color was formulated by merely adding one part black dye to 100 parts red. You have to look at the fireman in just the right light to catch a glimps of black. No doubt, when a PRR employee stood next to a competing railroad's bandana-wearing soul, the color difference would be quite dramatic. Does anyone know if Floquil plans this color? Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 06:42:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors --- NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > You mean to tell me there wasn't a standard for > these on the PRR or a company store where they had > to be purchased? LOL > Several decades ago I was helping my mother sort out odds and ends inherited from her mother. There was a bed spread which had red embroidery, except that at one end the embroidery was a pale brownish pink rather than red. I asked about that and was told that the work had been begun before WW1 with floss dyed with German dyes. But, that had run out and the new floss had been dyed with American dyes since German dyes were no longer available. Although the new floss matched the old when new, over time it had faded, while the pre-war stuff had not. (Score one for I. G. Farben.) Now that throws an additional variable into the mix. Surely the USRA would not have permitted bandanas dyed with German dyes to have been worn, even had such been available. That, I suspect, would have led to rather rapid fading of the bandanas, regardless of washing technique or other factors. Whether firemen would allow themselves to be seen in public wearing a pink bandana is another question. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:12:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Oh boy, now Bob's gone and introduced another variable into the equation. Unfortunately, Bob's account of the WWI-era blanket has reminded me of a magazine article regarding WWI material which I never figured would get into Pennsy lore, but our quest for historical accuracy is unending. Seems America's attitude toward the tragic conflict raging in Europe was neutral, at best. Germany was supported by Americans of German, Austrian, Hungarian, and other Central European extractions, as well as heavily by Irish-Americans. And many American enterprises highly valued German dyes, becoming hard to obtain due to the British blockade of German exports. About this time the Germans launched a new effort: the freight-service U Boat. These were sizable craft, something of an underwater version of a Pennsy I1. Anyway, there was great hoopla and fanfare when one of these vessels landed at a Jersey port, carrying, you guessed it, dye. This was something of a setback for Woodrow Wilson and his cohort, Winston Churchill, who were doing their best to get the USA into the conflict. Now I'm betting somebody knows which B60's the dye was loaded into and how much ended up in PRSL neckware. I guess the only logical conclusion is that you can't trust drift cards, photos, personal recounts or research when it comes to bandanas, cause some nitpicker is going to take a magnifier to your HO employees and prove you wrong anyway, or at least argue about it. Serve beer in styrofoam glasses to minimize resulting physical damages. Barry Jones (new member who hasn't said anything before) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:14:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steam Roster Now Online! From: Jerry Britton The initial version of the searchable steam locomotive roster is now online!!! http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/steam/ PLEASE, take a moment to follow the links to Search Tips and Scope of Project before using the database!!! These sections explain the format of the data and the current content of the database. Currently, only the road numbers and classes are in the system. So, if you want to search for what classes were represented by certain road numbers (e.g. birthdays, anniversaries, etc.), you can obtain that data at this time. Assuming that you have read the above two sections, your comments are welcome and appreciated. Is there other data that we should be maintaining as well? Over the coming weeks I will be attaching photos to several hundred records. By the end of the summer I will be entering the "Cross Reference to Published Photos" data. This is a distributed data entry project for which help is still needed! See the Scope of Project link from the main page of the database. Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story Barry J,         Remember, that submarine, which by the way only had a tractive effort of 50,000 lbs,, far less than that of a PRR I1, had a group of sabatour's out to destroy the Pennsy's Horseshoe Curve. Luckily they were caught in time before any damage was done. On their possession was that barrel of that red dye. Who knows what happened to it after it was confiscated! Could have made its way out to the Lines West Officials and used in the Bandanas on that division.... Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:44:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story They were easily spotted because their bandanas were too red. With the superior dye job there was nothing they could do about it either. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JWTrains@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:38:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR list for F3, F7, FP7, E7, E8 Sorry, the previous list got screwed up. I'll list them again in a single row. Order No. Model No. E-843 F3 E-863 F3 E-896 F3 E-921 F3 E-922 F3 E-1004 F3 E-1021 F3 E-1080 F3* E-1080 F7* E-1108 F3 E-1138 F3 E-1144 F7 E-1221 F7 E-3025 F7 E-3037 F7 E-3038 F7 E-3051 F7 E-3066 FP7 E-3144 F7 E-671 E7 E-745 E7 E-864 E7 E-1113 E7 E-2054 E8 E-6079 E8 E-6181 E8 E-6354 E8 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:31:26 -0400 From: Garry Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR F5's a factory designation, not PRR's. Stuthayer@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 6/1/00 5:33:44 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > << 4. I don't have a late enough Form 109, but it would be interesting to > know > if this variance in traction motor was even tracked in PRR's motive power > records. >> > > Rick and others, > > I would suspect that the difference was indeed made note of, and tracked. > Whether the PRR did so by designating these units as F5's is not known. > Officialy they may not have, but at shops, and service points the shop > personel may have used the F5 designation as a way to highlight the fact that > these "F3's" had different equipment in them. This would would most > certainly help out the shop personel that would have to work on these units. > Just a thought. We'll probably never know for sure. > > Stuart Thayer > I never heard of any differences. When traction motors and generators were rebuilt they were rebuilt to the current engineering standard. You would have the same engineering standard for traction motors under EF15s and EF17s. Same comment for the traction motors under EP20s and EP22s. You could even have the same model generators in different model engines. Yes, records were kept as to the current engineering level of the traction motors and generators, but the shop forces did not use or care. In 1965 the PRR rebuilt some EP22s that had rebuilt generator, traction motor, and electrical cabinets applied. These items were the current EMD engineering level. All these items were rated for a 2400 hp locomotive. Does this make these engines closet E9s. I think not! The prime movers never were never rerated. The locomotives were still 2200 hp. I worked in Juniata in 1965 on locomotive repairs & in 1967 in the traction motor and generator repair shop. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:45:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Great News For N-Scalers!!! From: Jerry Britton For the benefit of those not on the "Merchandise Announce" list, the previously "pre-announced" N-5 Cabin Cars are now available for Advance Reservation. Thirty road names/liveries are announced, including PRR, Penn Central, and Conrail. You can learn more by visiting the Merchandise Service eStore at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Enter the store and perform a search on Manufacturer = Bowser Category = N Scale --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:06:32 +0100 While making due note of all the expert theories, this Brit will continue to do his own thing as usual and insist on matching model bandana colour to those found on his 'extensive' collection of weathered bandana photographs. Regards, John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: 02 June 2000 15:44 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:12:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [CR] Great News For N-Scalers!!! Guys, Am I correct in thinking that the old PRR cabin that sits at the small park next to the tunnels at Gallitzin is an N5? Sean McDonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:20:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser G-5 In a message dated 5/31/00 7:28:40 AM Central Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << he Gem one was done by Olympia and is a little more suspect. Some Gem's are gems (pardon the pun) and some are rocks. From personal experience both the H10s's and E6s's from Gem are good runners (although the details need some work...even by the standards of the mid 1960's they were pretty plain), and while I had a G5 once upon a time I can't remember how well it ran...not a good sign. >> MIne runs as smooth as glass. Details are a matter of choice. Since I like operation first, I am content with fewer things to fall off with handling for those of us unfortunate enough to have to transport our rolling stock often. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:40:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion In a message dated 5/31/00 7:54:43 PM Central Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << Incidentally, I believe that the GP30's were the last delivered units with the antennas...the U25B's delivered next had no antennas. >> Close, but at least a significant number of U25B's had antennas. I think GP35 was first with no antennas, though the antennas might have stopped in the middle of the U25B run. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:55:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Window trim color on a T1? In a message dated 5/31/00 9:24:34 PM Central Daylight Time, svastano@hotmail.com writes: << Since I am just a kid when it comes to my knowledge of the PRR What color was the trim around the windows of a T1 and a J1? since I am asking. >> The J1 is a little easier (I think). The trim is the same color as the lettering in every photo I have seen (I am not sure of the changeover datefrom gold leaf to buff lettering). Your question about the T1 has shaken me a little. For years I assumed it was gold leaf. But only photos I can find show either stainless or aluminum or jjust plain DGLE (or something which is so dirty as to look DGLE). Will continue to search. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Shelb68man@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:01:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steel Mill Questions Hi, I believe Phoenix Steel in Claymont,DE was Worth Steel in the 1950's. It was served by the PRR.I been told that the old Pennsy right of way (before relocation) is now a part of the trackage in the mill today. You ride over it when driving through the plant on the Philadelphia Pk.. Charlie C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brooks" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [CR] Great News For N-Scalers!!! Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:07:16 -0400 Sean, It's actually an N5C. Brian Brooks ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 3:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [CR] Great News For N-Scalers!!! > Guys, > > Am I correct in thinking that the old PRR cabin that sits at the small park > next to the tunnels at Gallitzin is an N5? > > Sean McDonnell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:09:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors In a message dated 6/1/00 9:56:01 PM Central Daylight Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << To tell the truth though, I have never researched the clothing line to find out what the actual dye color was! Perhaps the PRRT&HS could come out with a color chip for this. >> Red and blue will not do as the description for the color. It should be something like DRBC (Deluxe Red Bandanna Color) or something like that to make sure that only SPF's will know what the h--- we are talking about. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Window trim color on a T1? Bob, I was in the same opinion you were. I also presumed the T1 window trim was Gold Leaf. Upon closer look at my color T1 slides it appears the trim is DGLE. B/W photos in books show a lighter color so something changed through the years. Here is a long shot and maybe an answer can be found. Does anyone on this list own the spectacular 1/32 scale PRR T1 produced by Marketing Corporation of America? Much attention was given to detail on these locos. What is the color of the trim on this loco? I remember when the M1a was released by this company. There was a big squabble over a certain pipeing position. The 2 combatants was the company that built it, MCA, and the Smithsoniun Museum. Story was the museum wouldn't allow it in their display until the builder changed the routing of this pipe. MCA said it was correct the way they did it. Seems they had proof. The Smithsoniun thought otherwise. Never did hear what happened in the end. Anyway, this is the example of the high quality of these huge models. So if we could find out what this T1 had for window trim color, we may have an answer to the prototype T1 color question........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:33:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] EMD PRR F5's Jim, My point exactly. the engineering department did release F5's and several raods did roster them and recognized this notation, like Clinchfield and Rio Grande for example. But to try to tell the difference at a glance or via a photo, uou simply can't. The point is they were built and you need to know the production dates. You can't tell from a photo unless you know the corresponding F5 numbers. Greg << Greg, Not to be contrary, but I believe that Dave and Roger and have it wrong in their MM article. The F5 was simply an EMD engineering department designation for the very last version of the F3. The EMD marketing department never marketed the late F3 as F5, but simple as an F3. A few roads like the Clinchfield picked up on the EMD Engineering designation of F5 and classified their late F3 locomotives as F5, . . . but this was not an official EMD model. As for appearance, these late F3 [F5] locos were identical to the early F7 -- provided dynamic brakes are ignored. There is no appearance difference between the late F3 and early F7 if no dynamics. On the other hand, late F3s with dynamic brakes had the parallel screened roof vents for DB cooling whereas the early F7s had a 36-inch pan-top cooling fan in place of the twin vents. Jim -------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; "Paul Bizier" ; Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 3:02 AM Subject: [PM-list] EMD PRR F5's > Stu, Bill and listers, > > I actually wonder if those that say the Pennsy did not have F5's know the > spotting features of the F 5 if they saw a photo of one? Could they really > tell? Let me quote David Peck and Roger Boor in their article in Mainline > Modeler Jan/Feb 1982, > > "EMD very quickly lost the unique designation of F 2 and later F 5. F2's > became F-3's, F5's later became F-7's; however that doesn't necessarily mean > the units were rebuilt or changed from their original F 2 or F 5 > configuration." > > This article and the proceeding articles were very comprehensive studies on > the F-units not meant to duplicate the work that Extra 2200 South had done on > the subject almost ten years prior. > > What are the spotting features of the F 5 and how are they different from the > F 3, can anyone tell me how to tell from a picture? I can't and I am doing > an incredible amount of research on the EMD F-UINTS for several up coming > articles. Some Pennsy, some not. With the information I have gathered and > the photo research on the F 5 (and I will tell you some of the prettiest F5's > were the Rio Grande units #5561(A), 5562(B), 5563(B), 5564(A)) I cannot tell > from a picture, but you can from the builders dates and if you were a diesel > mechanic you could because the changes were inside, an upgraded generator and > F 3 traction motors. Tell me again how to spot them in a photo of a Pennsy > engine on the high Iron at 40 MPH, please. From the numbers... > > It is pointless to try to model the difference in an F 3 phase 4 and the F > 5... four 36" diameter fans, twin parallel dynamic brake screened vents, > horizontal stainless grills, and most important delivered from late in > September 1948 to late in January and early February 1949. That makes the > following units F5's: 9542 thru 9555 inclusive and 9679 thru 9689 inclusive. > Hey wait, I was told by an expert that Pennsy did not buy F5's though? Yea > right... I'm no expert and I am not always right [but my wife is 3^) ] but I > did a little research on the subject. The information is out there if you > know where to look. And I think, but I will not swear to the fact that some > of the last F5's received a 36" diameter fan in place of the dynamic brake > exhaust vents, but I need to recheck my color EMD builders photo and get back > to you guys. > > Just remember to do the research and don't take one persons word on a > subject, form your own conclusions. > > I only wish that in all the archives out there someone would have had enough > brains to save a few Purchase Orders from the Motive Power guys during the > transition period. > > So if you want to model an F 5, then pick one of the above numbers and buy a > Stewart F 3 phase 4 shell (s) (from your dealer) and pick up a the matching > number of Bachmann Plus F 7 B-units from Train World (10 bucks plus shipping) > slap them babies together and for about 30 bucks or less you can have a > Pennsy F 5 that runs almost as good as a KATO (some say as good, check the > reviews in RMJ) and laugh all the way to the bank... > > Greg Martin > mostly a rivet counter, sometimes not ... but Outlawed by NMRA Cajon Div > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Scrap your search engine. > Inforocket.com is the fast way to the right answer - guaranteed. > http://click.egroups.com/1/4517/0/_/702554/_/959842970/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Community email addresses: > Post message: PROTOTYPEmodeler@onelist.com > Subscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-subscribe@onelist.com > Unsubscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-unsubscribe@onelist.com > List owner: PROTOTYPEmodeler-owner@onelist.com > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/PROTOTYPEmodeler > > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:54:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion In a message dated 6/2/00 1:50:32 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Close, but at least a significant number of U25B's had antennas. I think GP35 was first with no antennas, though the antennas might have stopped in the middle of the U25B run. >> I believe you are correct. The early purchases of U25B's had the Antennas, and the later purchases did not. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Steel Industry, kind'a Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 19:34:16 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFCCC9.8A4C1D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list, Based upon comments received, Johnstown appears to be where it is at. = Now where can I find the following (circa 1952)? 1) Map showing rail lines within a, say 20 mile radius of the city? = Major and minor arteries, not necessarily sidings for individual = industries. 2) Relatively detailed map of Conemaugh Yard? 3) Train schedule for Johnstown? With this info in hand, I would be able to narrow down "points of = interest" for inclusion on my pike. Just when I was about to bemoan the lack of mill town homes (at least = the ones I remember) I began looking thru the recently arrived July = Model Railroader. Lo and Behold! On pages 42 and 46, by Ed Fulasz an HO = 3 Story Tenement to Let! Looks like quite a few of the homes I remember = renovating in the Pittsburgh area. Wouldn't surprise me if the basis for = this building is right off McClure St in Homestead. After all, you gotta = house those mill hunkies. (FYI, happen to be an ex Mill hunkie, thanks = and pass the boilermaker) Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFCCC9.8A4C1D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list,
 
Based upon comments received, Johnstown appears to = be where it=20 is at. Now where can I find the following (circa 1952)?
1) Map showing rail lines within a, say 20 mile = radius of the=20 city? Major and minor arteries, not necessarily sidings for individual=20 industries.
2) Relatively detailed map of Conemaugh = Yard?
3) Train schedule for Johnstown?
 
With this info in hand, I would be able to narrow = down "points=20 of interest" for inclusion on my pike.
 
Just when I was about to bemoan the lack of mill = town homes=20 (at least the ones I remember) I began looking thru the recently arrived = July=20 Model Railroader. Lo and Behold! On pages 42 and 46, by Ed = Fulasz an HO=20 3 Story Tenement to Let! Looks like quite a few of the homes I remember=20 renovating in the Pittsburgh area. Wouldn't surprise me if the basis for = this=20 building is right off McClure St in Homestead. After all, you gotta = house those=20 mill hunkies. (FYI, happen to be an ex Mill hunkie, thanks and pass = the=20 boilermaker)
 
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFCCC9.8A4C1D00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:00:51 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story Gary, Wasn't that group of saboteur's washed ashore during WWII? If I recall correctly the submarine in question (and we won't ask which question) sailed (if that can be the correct word) during WWI. I know old boats (submarines, at least American subs, are called boats. Not enough time nor space to explain it now. However, I can't speak for the Kreigsmarine's Unterseaboatens.) weren't fast sailers, but this is ridiculous. But necessary. Maybe with all that good German Dye (and a couple kegs of Oktoberfest) there wasn't room for the saboteurs. But again, if they were HO scale... Bill Daniels former subsailor. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 19:30:16 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] RYPN article on RR Museum of PA Hello list, Railway Preservation News (http://www.rypn.org) has a new feature article on the RR Museum of PA. Click on features, then on the uppermost (the RR Museum of PA) article. Now that I'm 1500 miles from the East Coast, it was nice to visit with some friends of the belpaire fireboxed variety. The article's lead photo has a beautiful shot of H10s 7688. While not as comprehensive as the RR Museum of PA's own page, it was an excellent article. Enjoy! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR Firemans B