Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 11:10:42 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: [PRR] Steam Pics --=====_95455144241=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi fellow SPFs, For those who haven't noticed, Paul Walton has posted some excellent PRR steam pics to the alt.binaries.pictures.rail newsgroup. Well worth a look! Mick --=====_95455144241=_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Hi fellow SPFs,

For those who haven't noticed,

Paul Walton has posted some excellent PRR steam pics to

the alt.binaries.pictures.rail newsgroup.

Well worth a look!

Mick

--=====_95455144241=_-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] X31/X32 Family Roof Design (was X32 Wartime Troop Car Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 19:25:21 -1000 Bruce wrote: I always get it confused...which one had the inset roof? I agree in looking at the pics that at least some of the cars appear to have inset roofs. My Bowser X-32a has a flush roof, as does the Railworks P-30a. The article states that both X-32 and X-32a cars were used for conversions but that all the troop sleepers were X-32 (and not X-32a). Bruce, Sorry for the delay - had to research the references, and I've been on the road a bunch lately. Early Class X31, X32, and X33 boxcars had the inset roof design with a pronounced center peak that tapered toward the eaves. During late 1935 - early 1936, the cars were revised to incorporate the "flush roof" design to add approximately 5 inches of clearance across the width of the car. X32 number series 60112-60171 and X33 number series 60172-60221 were built with the inset roof. All other number series had the flush roof. I don't have information that specific for X31 class cars, but the changeover happened at about the same time for the 40 ft cars. (By the way, if anyone has a copy of Ian Fischer's article from Vol 14 No 1 of The Keystone, I will gladly pay for a reproduction). References: Richard Burg, "Pennsy 50 ft Round Roof Boxes", Rail Model Journal, Feb 96, p 15. Richard Burg, "Pennsylvania Railroad X31 40 ft Boxcars", Rail Model Journal, Mar 15, p 15. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 07:27:01 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Railroad No. 99-C-1 Brake and Train Air Many of you are undoubtedly familiar with PRR's 99-C-1 rule book of braking instructions, but I just found my first in Jack Fravert's materials that we are preparing for auction. As I'd expect, on the Pennsy an important subject like air braking has many detailed rules covering most operating conditions. Of course, I already knew that the special Madison Hill braking instructions in Western Region timetables supplement this document. However, one thing that surprised me is the list in the back of 99-C-1 naming specific grades and their minimum descent time. These included: Newton to Pottsville 10.8 miles 39 minutes Clearfield Branch, Summit to Vail 9.8 miles 43 minutes AR to Slope 11.1 miles 38 minutes AR to Wye 16.4 miles 62 minutes Keating Summit Grade 5 miles 20 minutes Kane to Wilcox 8.6 miles 28 minutes North Madison to Madison 1.36 miles 7 minutes Unsurprisingly, the Madison Incline is the only one of these notorious grades in Western Region. Incidentally, my local division of the NMRA will be making a field trip to Madison IN on Saturday May 13. By then, the trees, the flowering plants, and the snake population in the woods around this picturesque river town should be in full bloom. We expect to visit the grade and the station restoration; I'm sure I'll find gone all the 1893 Weir Frog switchwork that survived into the 1970's. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone 502-426-0089 (8am to 8pm please) Fax same number 3800 Little Bend Road Louisville, KY 40241-1625 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 15:53:49 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] flatcars Hello All... A while back someone asked for info on the PRR's depressed center six wheeled truck flat cars. I had remembered that Railworks had some brass cars in HO scale,but this modeler was building in S scale. i deleted my e-mail and lost the address. To who ever it was there are pictures of one of these cars and other Pennsy flats in Railworks ad in the February issue of Model Railroad Craftsman. This is on page 105. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 07:27:01 EST From: RickTipton@aol.com Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad No. 99-C-1 Brake and Train Air Signal Instructions Many of you are undoubtedly familiar with PRR's 99-C-1 rule book of braking instructions, but I just found my first in Jack Fravert's materials that we are preparing for auction. As I'd expect, on the Pennsy an important subject like air braking has many detailed rules covering most operating conditions. Of course, I already knew that the special Madison Hill braking instructions in Western Region timetables supplement this document. However, one thing that surprised me is the list in the back of 99-C-1 naming specific grades and their minimum descent time. These included: Newton to Pottsville 10.8 miles 39 minutes Clearfield Branch, Summit to Vail 9.8 miles 43 minutes AR to Slope 11.1 miles 38 minutes AR to Wye 16.4 miles 62 minutes Keating Summit Grade 5 miles 20 minutes Kane to Wilcox 8.6 miles 28 minutes North Madison to Madison 1.36 miles 7 minutes Unsurprisingly, the Madison Incline is the only one of these notorious grades in Western Region. Incidentally, my local division of the NMRA will be making a field trip to Madison IN on Saturday May 13. By then, the trees, the flowering plants, and the snake population in the woods around this picturesque river town should be in full bloom. We expect to visit the grade and the station restoration; I'm sure I'll find gone all the 1893 Weir Frog switchwork that survived into the 1970's. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone 502-426-0089 (8am to 8pm please) Fax same number 3800 Little Bend Road Louisville, KY 40241-1625 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ LOW RATE, NO WAIT! Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Learn more at: http://click.egroups.com/1/937/4/_/586931/_/954628166/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:33:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Convention -- Added Event From: Jerry Britton Just got off the phone with the organizers of this year's PRRT&HS convention. Exciting news! Early on the planners had hoped to arrange a special run of the Liberty Limited Dinner Train, which runs out of New Freedom to just south of York on the former Northern Central Branch. Those plans fizzled out until just this week. In an unprecendented showing of cooperation, the following has been arranged: A special Liberty Limited will run on Sunday following the convention. It will pick passengers up at a makeshift station in New Cumberland on the York Haven Line (NS territory). This site was chosen as it keeps the train out of Enola. The Rockville Bridge was out of the question due to all the interlocking requirements. Anyway, NS agreed to do this as there is very little traffic on the York Haven line on Sundays. The train will go south on the York Haven Line and bear south at Wago Junction onto the former Northern Central Line. At downtown York, the train will continue on the NCRy trackage, now owned by the Maryland & Pennsylvania RR. Continuing on NCRy trackage now the regular route of the Dinner Train, the excursion will continue to New Freedom. Passengers will disembark for about an hour to enjoy the recently restored station before reboarding to head back north. Unfortunately, the only PRR car in the consist is the Catulpa Falls. How reservations for this excursion are going to be handled has not yet been resolved. There should be no problem accomodating everyone, as there will be no meal served on board. Exciting news indeed!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 19:33:29 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: [PRR] Re: RF & P Interface [PRR] "cwhary" wrote on 3/29/00 2:07 pm: >Was there a working interface between the PRR >and the RF & P? If so what >level of involvement existed? Sure! Potomac Yard, the very northern end of the RF & P. Parts of the yard were electrified so that the PRR freight motors could run into the yard. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 21:20:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Atglen and Susquehanna Line From: "Richards" Hello all. I am interested in modeling the Atglen and Susquehanna freight line and would like to know what resources there are out there. I'd love to find photos or drawings of Smith Tower and any books or articles or track plans related to the Low Grade Line. I'm modeling in O scale and my interest is in heavy electrics. Thanks in advance, Thomas Richards Cambridge, MA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 22:04:20 -0500 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: [PRR] Re: RF & P Interface [PRR] Dennis Rockwell wrote in reply to charlie: (Charlie) >> Was there a working interface between the PRR >> and the RF & P? If so what >> level of involvement existed? > Sure! Potomac Yard, the very northern end of the RF & P. Parts of the yard were electrified so that the PRR freight motors could run into the yard. My friend George Paine replied to Charlie's question at some length. He writes: RF&P was jointly owned by ACL and SAL (on the south), C&O (on both ends) and B&O and PRR (on the north). as such it operated as a neutral bridge road and endeavoured to provide the same level of service to all owners. keeping that diverse lot happy was probably quite a headache from time to time. (Charlie) > I model the PRR and I particularly like the passenger side of > trains. The time frame I model is 1930 to 50 primarly steam. I > recently have been looking at some steam engine models that RF & P > used and was wondering if they would be within my PRR scheme of > things. > power was always changed at Washington; RF&P steam (later diesel) for PRR steam (later electric). in history it's always easy to say "usually" but hard to say either "never" or "always", but I'm unaware of any exceptions to this. so to fit your RF&P locomotive in, all you need to do is include Washington Terminal (and perhaps the Ivy City roundhouse). in steam days power was always changed at Richmond, but after dieselisation and the introduction of lightweight passenger cars, some (but not all) ACL and SCL units would run through to Washington (and, conversely, some RF&P units would show up in Florida). so if you run to diesels you can put some small number of white, and of purple, units into Ivy City. I remember seeing them there in the days before Amtrak. > > What color was there Heavy Weight passenger cars painted? > the heavyweights were Pullman green. RF&P participated in the through service to Florida so its cars ran all the way through. local service on the RF&P never amounted to much; they had a few HW coaches for a commuter service that expired right after WW II (precursor to the Fredericksburg line of today's Virginia Railway Express). RF&P also had a heavyweight business car, marked "ONE" (not "1"). after the war, RF&P had quite a few lightweight cars, which went to Amtrak, along with all but two (or 4?) of the E8 passenger diesels (there are either 1 or 2 each preserved in Roanoke and Richmond). although the RF&P was nominally independent and neutrally operated, it worked closely with its connecting lines for service planning, schedules, passenger equipment, etc.. this also extended to freight service, where the handoffs were at Acca Yard in Richmond and Potomac Yard in Alexandria. RF&P freights were handled by their own units - no runthroughs as for passenger trains. the PRR ran its electrification along the RF&P from the junction at RO down to the north end of Potomac Yard, where GG1, E33 and E44 locomotives took over from RF&P diesels. on a passenger note: this is where troop trains were handed off, not Union Station). the B&O had trackage rights over the PRR freight line (Benning to RO) and RF&P (RO into Potomac Yard), so you can include B&O operations, but AFAICT the B&O did not participate in the Florida service; for them Washington was the place where trains from Jersey City (and after ~1957, Baltimore) turned west. to this day Acca is an important node in the current CSX network but Pot Yard is gone - the land under the yard was worth too much to allow the rail operation to remain. but that's another story, for another time. RF&P had charter protection, under which no other railroad could be built in VA from Richmond to Washington (although the C&O had a roundabout route through Orange, Gordonsville and Doswell, it never amounted to much). this was another reason it had to work so well with its connections. > > So in closing I think if I had a RF & P train on my layout it would > fit in. Thanx again for your help. Your a gold mine of information. This was exactly > what I was hoping to find out with my posting. I beleve this would > add a nice change to my layout. Pullman green passenger train will > help break up the tuscan red trains I have. Thanx again. > oops. I need to be a bit more specific here. PRR had thru Pullmans connecting at Washington to C&O and SOU, and also to RF&P thence ACL and SAL. but an all-green RF&P coach consist, and its attendant motive power, wouldn't have made it past Washington (or, to be precise, the coach yards and engine terminal, respectively). and sorry for omitting Southern Railway from the list of Washington connections. there were, however, solid trains hauled by PRR, but my only knowledge of them would be from reconstructing service through old timetables or copies of the Official Guide - and my collection of OGs goes only back to the mid 1950s (~1956). IIRC it was their practice to combine several of these inbound trains and/or thru cars and them haul them on to New York in a combined movement, so you might see a mix of sleepers, lounges and diners from a variety of PRR's southern connections in one train - other movements would be your usual generic PRR train. the precise details would vary with the year, and season, as the arrangements tended to fluctuate to some extent. just to make things interesting there were also through movements from the other end - trains like the Federal which started in Boston on the NH and then switched over to the PRR at Penn Station New York. and if you turn back the clock far enough, there were also through cars to other points in New England, and eastern Canada. and here's another complexity. the head-end business, consisting of RPOs, REA and other express traffic, had its own highly complex set of through runs. often there were through cars of this kind of traffic on runs where no through passenger cars operated. for an interesting glimpse at how this worked just at the end, in the last few years before Amtrak, see Fred Fraley's excellent book "Twilight of the Great Trains" (Kalmbach, 1998). alas, the work he did on reconstructing service patterns for head end traffic is much harder to replicate, as these were less well documented in public sources like timetables or the Guide. he has an excellent example of the PRR haulage service, which if you can forgive me I'll quote here at some length: "However, the east-west lines paled beside Pennsy's north-south passenger line between New York City and Washington, what we know today as the Northeast Corridor. These 226.6 high-speed, electrified miles were unique to American railroading, combining a high volume of freight trains with an even higher volume of suburban, corridor and long-distance passenger trains in not just the colors of Pennsylvania Railroad but also those of New Haven, Southern, Chesapeake & Ohio, Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard Air Line and Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac. (p.177) "... you cannot help but be drawn to the era. If you close your eyes, you can almost imagine the summer of 1960. It's 1:45 am. On one of those through tracks beneath cavernous Washington Union Station, RF&P has just brought the "Havana Special" in from Miami, and Southern Railway its "Piedmont Limited" from New Orleans. From these trains and other equipment, a Washington Terminal RS1 switcher concocts a remarkable train, in this order: an Atlantic Coast Line heavyweight baggage car, a Pennsy P70 heavyweight coach and three ACL lightweight coaches, trailed by ten New York City-bound sleepers -- two out of Florida on the "Havana Special", one from Richmond, three off the "Piedmont" from New Orleans and points south of Washington and four of Pennsy's sleepers added at Washington. A car inspector hands the airbrake clearance to the engineer on the forward of the two GG1 electric locomotives. Presently train 108 will head North. "A mile away, Dwight Eisenhower sleeps in the White House. But here off North Capitol Street, the half-century-old station never rests. The combined southbound "Havana Special-Piedmont" is being separated on adjacent tracks. C&O's northbound "F.F.V." is due at 3 o'clock and Southern's "Crescent Limited" at 3:10, to be combined and leave town with 15 sleepers, a Southern diner and two coaches. Then will come the first of three southbound mail trains and, before long, the dawn of another day. That day would later see the leaving of the "Afternoon Congressional", still the finest day train in America. Its eight-year-old equipment will include six coach-lounges, a twin-unit diner and kitchen-bar-lounge and six parlor cars, one of them a blunt-end observation car." (p. 179) this ought to give you something to work with ... out of curiosity, are you going with GG1s, full catenary and EMUs? am not myself into modeling, but it does seem to me that it would be a considerable challenge to include that aspect of the physical plant. the above is not completely correct. I do have a model, but it's digital rather than tangiible, and attempts to represent current operations in the Mid-Atlantic area - see http://www.pacerfarm.org/wta.htm and at ~575 trains for six operators over ~4,100 route miles it wouldn't fit into the house even if we did have a basement. cheers. G. T. Paine Washington Grove Pacer Farm Washington Grove, MD MP 20.5 on the CSX (former B&O) Metropolitan Subdivision george@pacerfarm.org http://www.pacerfarm.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 22:45:21 -0500 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: Re: [PRR] flatcars Greetings- I have a photograph of one of these cars at: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/Found/FortWayne.htm Probably because I am a trucker, I call them Lowboys. If anybody can set me straight on what they were called by the railroad, or has any interesting information to add about them, I'd be most grateful. Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Hello All... > > A while back someone asked for info on the PRR's depressed center > six wheeled truck flat cars. I had remembered that Railworks > had some brass cars in HO scale,but this modeler was building in > S scale. i deleted my e-mail and lost the address. > > To who ever it was there are pictures of one of these cars > and other Pennsy flats in Railworks ad in the February issue > of Model Railroad Craftsman. This is on page 105. > > Til Later ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: RF & P Interface [PRR] Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 23:06:34 -0500 Thanks to everyone that contributed to this disertation on the RF&P. This is the most comprehensive and interesting thread of PRR history on this group in a long time. Thanks again! Lew Matt -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Knorek To: Dennis Rockwell ; PRR Talk ; Conrail-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 10:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: RF & P Interface [PRR] > > >Dennis Rockwell wrote in reply to charlie: > >(Charlie) >>> Was there a working interface between the PRR >>> and the RF & P? If so what >>> level of involvement existed? > >> Sure! Potomac Yard, the very northern end of the RF & P. Parts of the yard were electrified so that the PRR freight motors could run into the yard. > >My friend George Paine replied to Charlie's question at some length. He writes: > >RF&P was jointly owned by ACL and SAL (on the south), C&O (on both >ends) and B&O and PRR (on the north). as such it operated as a >neutral bridge road and endeavoured to provide the same level of >service to all owners. keeping that diverse lot happy was probably >quite a headache from time to time. > > >(Charlie) >> I model the PRR and I particularly like the passenger side of >> trains. The time frame I model is 1930 to 50 primarly steam. I >> recently have been looking at some steam engine models that RF & P >> used and was wondering if they would be within my PRR scheme of >> things. >> > > power was always changed at Washington; RF&P steam (later diesel) >for PRR steam (later electric). in history it's always easy to say >"usually" but hard to say either "never" or "always", but I'm >unaware of any exceptions to this. so to fit your RF&P locomotive in, >all you need to do is include Washington Terminal (and perhaps the Ivy >City roundhouse). in steam days power was always changed at Richmond, >but after dieselisation and the introduction of lightweight passenger >cars, some (but not all) ACL and SCL units would run through to >Washington (and, conversely, some RF&P units would show up in >Florida). so if you run to diesels you can put some small number of >white, and of purple, units into Ivy City. I remember seeing them >there in the days before Amtrak. > > >> >> What color was there Heavy Weight passenger cars painted? >> > > the heavyweights were Pullman green. RF&P participated in the >through service to Florida so its cars ran all the way through. local >service on the RF&P never amounted to much; they had a few HW coaches >for a commuter service that expired right after WW II (precursor to the >Fredericksburg line of today's Virginia Railway Express). RF&P also >had a heavyweight business car, marked "ONE" (not "1"). after the war, >RF&P had quite a few lightweight cars, which went to Amtrak, along >with all but two (or 4?) of the E8 passenger diesels (there are either >1 or 2 each preserved in Roanoke and Richmond). > > although the RF&P was nominally independent and neutrally >operated, it worked closely with its connecting lines for service >planning, schedules, passenger equipment, etc.. this also extended to >freight service, where the handoffs were at Acca Yard in Richmond and >Potomac Yard in Alexandria. RF&P freights were handled by their own >units - no runthroughs as for passenger trains. the PRR ran its >electrification along the RF&P from the junction at RO down to the >north end of Potomac Yard, where GG1, E33 and E44 locomotives took >over from RF&P diesels. on a passenger note: this is where troop >trains were handed off, not Union Station). the B&O had trackage >rights over the PRR freight line (Benning to RO) and RF&P (RO into >Potomac Yard), so you can include B&O operations, but AFAICT the B&O >did not participate in the Florida service; for them Washington was >the place where trains from Jersey City (and after ~1957, Baltimore) >turned west. to this day Acca is an important node in the current CSX >network but Pot Yard is gone - the land under the yard was worth too >much to allow the rail operation to remain. but that's another story, >for another time. > > > RF&P had charter protection, under which no other railroad could be >built in VA from Richmond to Washington (although the C&O had a >roundabout route through Orange, Gordonsville and Doswell, it never >amounted to much). this was another reason it had to work so well with >its connections. > >> >> So in closing I think if I had a RF & P train on my layout it would >> fit in. Thanx again for your help. Your a gold mine of information. This was exactly >> what I was hoping to find out with my posting. I beleve this would >> add a nice change to my layout. Pullman green passenger train will >> help break up the tuscan red trains I have. Thanx again. >> > > oops. I need to be a bit more specific here. PRR had thru >Pullmans connecting at Washington to C&O and SOU, and also to >RF&P thence ACL and SAL. but an all-green RF&P coach consist, and >its attendant motive power, wouldn't have made it past Washington >(or, to be precise, the coach yards and engine terminal, >respectively). and sorry for omitting Southern Railway from the >list of Washington connections. > > there were, however, solid trains hauled by PRR, but my only >knowledge of them would be from reconstructing service through old >timetables or copies of the Official Guide - and my collection of >OGs goes only back to the mid 1950s (~1956). IIRC it was their >practice to combine several of these inbound trains and/or thru >cars and them haul them on to New York in a combined movement, so >you might see a mix of sleepers, lounges and diners from a variety >of PRR's southern connections in one train - other movements would be >your usual generic PRR train. the precise details would vary with the >year, and season, as the arrangements tended to fluctuate to some >extent. > > just to make things interesting there were also through movements >from the other end - trains like the Federal which started in Boston >on the NH and then switched over to the PRR at Penn Station New York. >and if you turn back the clock far enough, there were also through >cars to other points in New England, and eastern Canada. > > and here's another complexity. the head-end business, consisting >of RPOs, REA and other express traffic, had its own highly complex >set of through runs. often there were through cars of this kind of >traffic on runs where no through passenger cars operated. for an >interesting glimpse at how this worked just at the end, in the last >few years before Amtrak, see Fred Fraley's excellent book "Twilight >of the Great Trains" (Kalmbach, 1998). alas, the work he did on >reconstructing service patterns for head end traffic is much harder >to replicate, as these were less well documented in public sources >like timetables or the Guide. he has an excellent example of the >PRR haulage service, which if you can forgive me I'll quote here at >some length: > > "However, the east-west lines paled beside Pennsy's north-south > passenger line between New York City and Washington, what we know > today as the Northeast Corridor. These 226.6 high-speed, > electrified miles were unique to American railroading, combining > a high volume of freight trains with an even higher volume of > suburban, corridor and long-distance passenger trains in not just > the colors of Pennsylvania Railroad but also those of New Haven, > Southern, Chesapeake & Ohio, Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard Air > Line and Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac. > >(p.177) > > > "... you cannot help but be drawn to the era. If you close your > eyes, you can almost imagine the summer of 1960. It's 1:45 am. > On one of those through tracks beneath cavernous Washington Union > Station, RF&P has just brought the "Havana Special" in from > Miami, and Southern Railway its "Piedmont Limited" from New > Orleans. From these trains and other equipment, a Washington > Terminal RS1 switcher concocts a remarkable train, in this > order: an Atlantic Coast Line heavyweight baggage car, a Pennsy > P70 heavyweight coach and three ACL lightweight coaches, trailed > by ten New York City-bound sleepers -- two out of Florida on the > "Havana Special", one from Richmond, three off the "Piedmont" > from New Orleans and points south of Washington and four of > Pennsy's sleepers added at Washington. A car inspector hands the > airbrake clearance to the engineer on the forward of the two > GG1 electric locomotives. Presently train 108 will head North. > > "A mile away, Dwight Eisenhower sleeps in the White House. But > here off North Capitol Street, the half-century-old station > never rests. The combined southbound "Havana Special-Piedmont" > is being separated on adjacent tracks. C&O's northbound "F.F.V." > is due at 3 o'clock and Southern's "Crescent Limited" at 3:10, to > be combined and leave town with 15 sleepers, a Southern diner and > two coaches. Then will come the first of three southbound mail > trains and, before long, the dawn of another day. That day would > later see the leaving of the "Afternoon Congressional", still the > finest day train in America. Its eight-year-old equipment will > include six coach-lounges, a twin-unit diner and kitchen-bar-lounge > and six parlor cars, one of them a blunt-end observation car." > >(p. 179) > > > this ought to give you something to work with ... out of >curiosity, are you going with GG1s, full catenary and EMUs? am >not myself into modeling, but it does seem to me that it would be >a considerable challenge to include that aspect of the physical >plant. > > the above is not completely correct. I do have a model, but it's >digital rather than tangiible, and attempts to represent current >operations in the Mid-Atlantic area - see > > http://www.pacerfarm.org/wta.htm > >and at ~575 trains for six operators over ~4,100 route miles it >wouldn't fit into the house even if we did have a basement. > >cheers. > >G. T. Paine >Washington Grove Pacer Farm >Washington Grove, MD >MP 20.5 on the CSX (former B&O) Metropolitan Subdivision > george@pacerfarm.org > http://www.pacerfarm.org > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:49:44 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: [PRR] Altoona and The Curve --=====_95465098441=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I'm working on a new section of my web site= (http://keystone.alphalink.com.au ) and would like to include an expanded section on Horseshoe Curve and= Altoona yard/shops. I am therefore unashamedly soliciting for information to add to what I= have. I'm looking for pictures (with permission to reproduce them on the website)= of action on the curve, around Altoona Yard, and anything I can get on the shops. I have a short section on The Curve up now, but feel that the area needs= more to do it full justice. As you can imagine information regarding the Pennsy is a little scarce in= this part of the world, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers all, Pennsy (Mick) Australia's No:1 SPF Happy Rails --=====_95465098441=_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all,

I'm working on a new section of my web site (http://keystone.alphalink.com.au )

and would like to include an expanded section on Horseshoe Curve and Altoona yard/shops.

I am therefore unashamedly soliciting for information to add to what I have.

I'm looking for pictures (with permission to reproduce them on the website) of action on the curve,

around Altoona Yard, and anything I can get on the shops.

I have a short section on The Curve up now, but feel that the area needs more to do it full justice.

As you can imagine information regarding the Pennsy is a little scarce in this part of the world, so

any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers all,

Pennsy (Mick)

Australia's No:1 SPF

Happy Rails

--=====_95465098441=_-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jason Myers" Subject: [PRR] Webpage updated Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 04:06:53 -0500 Hi everyone Ive update my webpage htpp://jasonstrainpics.homestead.com Jason Myers St Elmo Illinois CP 158 CSX STL line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:35:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention -- Added Event -- APRIL FOOL's From: Jerry Britton Geez! The following post that I made last evening was supposed to be this year's April Fool's gig, but either everyone was off-line or it sounded too plausible. Nobody made mention of it!!! Lots of folks anticipate something to happen each year, but this makes two sleeper years in a row! No, there is no excursion as described. Until next year... On 4/1/00 5:33 PM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Just got off the phone with the organizers of this year's PRRT&HS > convention. Exciting news! > > Early on the planners had hoped to arrange a special run of the Liberty > Limited Dinner Train, which runs out of New Freedom to just south of York on > the former Northern Central Branch. Those plans fizzled out until just this > week. > > In an unprecendented showing of cooperation, the following has been > arranged: > > A special Liberty Limited will run on Sunday following the convention. It > will pick passengers up at a makeshift station in New Cumberland on the York > Haven Line (NS territory). This site was chosen as it keeps the train out of > Enola. The Rockville Bridge was out of the question due to all the > interlocking requirements. Anyway, NS agreed to do this as there is very > little traffic on the York Haven line on Sundays. > > The train will go south on the York Haven Line and bear south at Wago > Junction onto the former Northern Central Line. At downtown York, the train > will continue on the NCRy trackage, now owned by the Maryland & Pennsylvania > RR. Continuing on NCRy trackage now the regular route of the Dinner Train, > the excursion will continue to New Freedom. > > Passengers will disembark for about an hour to enjoy the recently restored > station before reboarding to head back north. > > Unfortunately, the only PRR car in the consist is the Catulpa Falls. > > How reservations for this excursion are going to be handled has not yet been > resolved. There should be no problem accomodating everyone, as there will be > no meal served on board. > > Exciting news indeed!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S HOBBIES" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention -- Added Event -- APRIL FOOL's Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 11:41:02 -0400 You got me Jerry.....I was sorry I would not be able to take advantage and was envious!!!! Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention -- Added Event -- APRIL FOOL's > Geez! The following post that I made last evening was supposed to be this > year's April Fool's gig, but either everyone was off-line or it sounded too > plausible. Nobody made mention of it!!! > > Lots of folks anticipate something to happen each year, but this makes two > sleeper years in a row! > > No, there is no excursion as described. Until next year... > > On 4/1/00 5:33 PM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > > > Just got off the phone with the organizers of this year's PRRT&HS > > convention. Exciting news! > > > > Early on the planners had hoped to arrange a special run of the Liberty > > Limited Dinner Train, which runs out of New Freedom to just south of York on > > the former Northern Central Branch. Those plans fizzled out until just this > > week. > > > > In an unprecendented showing of cooperation, the following has been > > arranged: > > > > A special Liberty Limited will run on Sunday following the convention. It > > will pick passengers up at a makeshift station in New Cumberland on the York > > Haven Line (NS territory). This site was chosen as it keeps the train out of > > Enola. The Rockville Bridge was out of the question due to all the > > interlocking requirements. Anyway, NS agreed to do this as there is very > > little traffic on the York Haven line on Sundays. > > > > The train will go south on the York Haven Line and bear south at Wago > > Junction onto the former Northern Central Line. At downtown York, the train > > will continue on the NCRy trackage, now owned by the Maryland & Pennsylvania > > RR. Continuing on NCRy trackage now the regular route of the Dinner Train, > > the excursion will continue to New Freedom. > > > > Passengers will disembark for about an hour to enjoy the recently restored > > station before reboarding to head back north. > > > > Unfortunately, the only PRR car in the consist is the Catulpa Falls. > > > > How reservations for this excursion are going to be handled has not yet been > > resolved. There should be no problem accomodating everyone, as there will be > > no meal served on board. > > > > Exciting news indeed!!! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention -- Added Event -- APRIL FOOL's Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:09:10 -0400 Jerry, I was trying to figure out how many days it was going to take to back that train from New Freedom to New Cumberland, under the running in reverse rules!!!! Plus how they talked the Emonds Group into letting them across there Ma&Pa. rails..... I thought it was a spoof, but forgot it was April 1st.....(da !) ...I have other things on my mind at the time.....I'll be notifying my company of 38 yrs that I will retire in two weeks, to peruse a new career....... Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 Northern Central Chapter (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. Check out the Station......Oh , Jerry cast station signs will be made for the New Freedom station. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk Date: Sunday, April 02, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention -- Added Event -- APRIL FOOL's >Geez! The following post that I made last evening was supposed to be this >year's April Fool's gig, but either everyone was off-line or it sounded too >plausible. Nobody made mention of it!!! > >Lots of folks anticipate something to happen each year, but this makes two >sleeper years in a row! > >No, there is no excursion as described. Until next year... > >On 4/1/00 5:33 PM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > >> Just got off the phone with the organizers of this year's PRRT&HS >> convention. Exciting news! >> >> Early on the planners had hoped to arrange a special run of the Liberty >> Limited Dinner Train, which runs out of New Freedom to just south of York on >> the former Northern Central Branch. Those plans fizzled out until just this >> week. >> >> In an unprecendented showing of cooperation, the following has been >> arranged: >> >> A special Liberty Limited will run on Sunday following the convention. It >> will pick passengers up at a makeshift station in New Cumberland on the York >> Haven Line (NS territory). This site was chosen as it keeps the train out of >> Enola. The Rockville Bridge was out of the question due to all the >> interlocking requirements. Anyway, NS agreed to do this as there is very >> little traffic on the York Haven line on Sundays. >> >> The train will go south on the York Haven Line and bear south at Wago >> Junction onto the former Northern Central Line. At downtown York, the train >> will continue on the NCRy trackage, now owned by the Maryland & Pennsylvania >> RR. Continuing on NCRy trackage now the regular route of the Dinner Train, >> the excursion will continue to New Freedom. >> >> Passengers will disembark for about an hour to enjoy the recently restored >> station before reboarding to head back north. >> >> Unfortunately, the only PRR car in the consist is the Catulpa Falls. >> >> How reservations for this excursion are going to be handled has not yet been >> resolved. There should be no problem accomodating everyone, as there will be >> no meal served on board. >> >> Exciting news indeed!!! > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:49:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Atglen and Susquehanna Line On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, Richards wrote: > Hello all. I am interested in modeling the Atglen and Susquehanna freight > line and would like to know what resources there are out there. I'd love to > find photos or drawings of Smith Tower and any books or articles or track > plans related to the Low Grade Line. I'm modeling in O scale and my > interest is in heavy electrics. oddly yesterday i saw a picture of smith tower in a book, probably "from bullets to bart" by william d middleton. -d ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] Harrison St. Interlocking Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:40:24 -0500 Today, I purchased an interlocking drawing of the South side of Chicago Union Station. It is on a Chicago Union Station Co. title block. Not only is it an intelocking diagram, it also is a scale drawing of 1"=50'. It goes from just south of Roosevelt road to the concourse, so the platform tracks are shown in their entirety. The drawing has an original issue date of 3/15/33, and the latest revision is 8/66. The drawing is about 50" long and 12" high. On Mark Bej's web site, he asks for specific documentation of where CUS trackage begins, and PRR ends. This drawing shows the line directly under the Roosevelt Road bridge. I also have a Chicago Division track chart, and it shows the break point in the same place. Anyway, I have this drawing scanned in and ready to go if anybody would like a copy. Maybe Mark's web page would be the best place for it, so I'll also offer it there. Due to scanner size, I had to scan it in in 5 pieces. Unfortunately, the drawing does not show the Polk Street freight house or the PRR coach yards. If anybody has a drawing showing these areas, I would like to get a copy (Either a scan or I'll pay for duplication) Thanks, Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] 21st St. Interlocking Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:07:20 -0500 I've often seen the massive diamond to the south of the South Branch Lift Bridge commonly referred to as "21st St. Interlocking". However, today I saw a photograph of a K4 pulling several P-70s running south out of the bridge. The picture is taken much farther to the south than others I've seen, and in the right side of the photo there is the corner of a building. On this building, there is a sign of the familiar PRR type, the kind with the keystone in the center. On this sign is the lettering "22nd Street". The whole building cannot be seen, but could this be the interlocking tower? And if so, was it officially known as "22nd Street"? I found this interesting. I didn't buy the photo. It was in a bad frame and overpriced, but maybe I should have bought it. Just after I typed the above, I went and got an employee timetable I have, and it also refers to this tower as 22nd Street. I remember recently a discussion of interlocking vs: interlocking station vs: block station. Going from south to north, the ETT lists stations ...40th St(463.8), 22nd St(466.0), Alton Jct(466.2), South Branch Bridge(466.2),... All but 22nd st are interlockings and interlocking stations. South Branch Bridge is also a block station. 22nd st is listed as none. What does this mean? The ETT I'm referring to is 10/29/67. So I guess this interlocking is officially 22nd St. Any other comments? Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] X-58 box cars From: Fred G Rea Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 00:07:50 EDT Are there any decent kits for the PRR X-58 box cars? Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FW: Question about PRR Line Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 00:00:15 -0400 Hi all, Can anyone help Margaret out? Thanks, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Margaret McElliott [mailto:mmcelliott@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 11:50 AM To: robs@railfan.net Subject: Question about PRR Line Hi Are you aware of a site on the PRR line called: Rattigan's Gap? Probably in Cambria County? Thanks Margaret McElliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention -- Added Event -- APRIL FOOL's Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:11:16 -0500 -----Original Message----- Lots of folks anticipate something to happen each year, but this makes two sleeper years in a row! I don't know about that. Last year, the Rat gig got me pretty good. I was trying to figure out how a GG-1 truck could be used before I figured it out. Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 00:10:36 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] 21st St. Interlocking "Andy Cich" writes: > I've often seen the massive diamond to the south of the South Branch Lift > Bridge commonly referred to as "21st St. Interlocking". However, today I > saw a photograph of a K4 pulling several P-70s running south out of the > bridge. The picture is taken much farther to the south than others I've > seen, and in the right side of the photo there is the corner of a building. > On this building, there is a sign of the familiar PRR type, the kind with > the keystone in the center. On this sign is the lettering "22nd Street". > > The whole building cannot be seen, but could this be the interlocking tower? No. 21st Interlocking is known as Alton Jct in PRR/PC/Conrail parlance. > Just after I typed the above, I went and got an employee timetable I have, > and it also refers to this tower as 22nd Street. I remember recently a > discussion of interlocking vs: interlocking station vs: block station. > Going from south to north, the ETT lists stations ...40th St(463.8), 22nd > St(466.0), Alton Jct(466.2), South Branch Bridge(466.2),... All but 22nd st > are interlockings and interlocking stations. South Branch Bridge is also a > block station. 22nd st is listed as none. What does this mean? The ETT > I'm referring to is 10/29/67. As far as I know, 22nd St was simply a timetable location for the turnout for No. 4 track (from No. 1 track). Deliveries for 55th St. yard went south (timetable east) from CUS through South Branch, Alton Jct. (21st St), and onto No. 4 track at 22nd St. which was a secondary track of no assigned direction. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Technology Service Corp. Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] More pictures on website plus a couple of questions Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:18:32 +0100 Some more pictures are on the website: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm An F unit in DGLE / A U28c (black?) / The curve with a Centipede and a J1 pushing tender first / Two pics of the Boston street tractors. Two questions: 1) Is the F unit an F7? The re-numbering has got me confused (not very difficult :-) 2) At the risk of bringing up the old DGLE issue again. To me the picture of the U28c shows a black livery applied ...... in fact it looks as black as it ever gets ..... compare with the F unit. Were the later PRR diesels painted black? If not, anybody know what's going on here? Regards, John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] More pictures on website plus a couple of questions Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 05:56:56 -0700 John, list, > 1) Is the F unit an F7? The re-numbering has got me confused (not very difficult :-) The F unit is an FP7. The spotting feature is the extra tank forward of the fuel tank - it's an easier visual cue than trying to spot the extra length, which isn't as apparent unless the locomotive is seen next to an F3 or F7. > 2) At the risk of bringing up the old DGLE issue again. To me the picture of the U28c shows a black livery applied ...... in fact it looks as black as it ever gets ..... compare with the F unit. Were the later PRR diesels painted black? If not, anybody know what's going on here? The U28C is definitely in DGLE. The FP7 appears more greenish due to the age of its paint job, whereas the U28C looks to be new or recently shopped. Black did not appear until after the merger. > Two pics of the Boston street tractors. Also, the street tractors are from Baltimore (Fells Point), not Boston. Regards, Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:48:37 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Street tractors. Was: More pictures... --- Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > John, list, > Also, the street tractors are from Baltimore (Fells > Point), not Boston. > I had gotten the idea that similar tractors were used in Philadelphia also. Were there such? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] Freight train make-up, etc. Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:58:55 -0700 Derrick and folks, Thanks for the reply(ies). I think you're right. Rich and others have responded that 16th St. was the Produce Terminal's designation. That makes sense, as there wasn't much going there but reefers. By process of elimination that would make 43rd the only remaining yard, and the AV the only remaining line. As many times as I've asked, and knowing that this information probably does not exist, I would still like to know what type of freight, how much, how often, what types of cars, what motive power, where destined, etc. This is a subject so infrequently discussed! There just HAS to be someone out there that can enlighten us.... By discussion with various people (and years of digging!), I understand that 30th St. was primarily interchange w/J&L (Mon Con), but would have also classified freight off the Whitehall and A&SS. This appears to be correct from photos. Thomson was classifier for URR interchange, and got lots of coil cars and auto parts boxes from IrvinWorks/Fisher Body up the hill. Shire Oaks was classifier for all the coal from MonRwy/PRR further upriver (Mon). Wilson Yard classified for Clairton Works, Connelly Yard for Duquesne Works, etc. The big three (Conway, Pitcairn, Scully) were for the mainline classification jobs. That would make 43rd the classifier for the Allegheny traffic/Conemaugh Div.(?). Too bad no one has more on this subject. For those of us modeling the area, it would make an interesting part of operations to have actual destinations/origins for our traffic. On this subject, has anyone seen the article done by Bob Malinoski in a Keystone (something about the Middle Division) that had a centerspread photo of a freight going W/B on the curve in 1965, and later in the article a computer consist of the same train? It is an absolutely fascinating portion of that article. It is one of the few places I have EVER seen actual info tacked on to actual photo documentation. Several of the first boxcars in the train were hauling sheet steel or tinplate. Is anyone modeling this operation? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 3:59 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight train make-up, etc. > Hi all, I have been talking with Al Buchan off-line on this subject, and > have exhausted our collective knowledge on this subject/area. Maybe some of > you can add a great deal to our knowledge base. > Does anyone know the 1) frequency of occurrence, 2) train make-up (avg > # of cars, motive power, type of freight, customer destinations, etc.), 3) > routing, and any other interesting info, on the following freight trains: > PT5 Pitcairn to Pgh 30th St. > PT61 Pitcairn to Pgh 16th St. (where IS 16th St.?) I would assume 16th would be in the Strip District and > PT3 Pgh 30th St. to Pgh 43rd St. (where is 43rd St.???) 43rd would be in Lawrenceville... so my best guess would put both of these on AVRR... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 12:22:12 -0400 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] Street tractors. Was: More pictures... As a kid, I most definitely remember seeing rubber-tired motors along the water front in Philly. However, I don't remember if they were Pennsy or Reading units. Frank Brua robert netzlof wrote: > --- Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > > John, list, > > > Also, the street tractors are from Baltimore (Fells > > Point), not Boston. > > > > I had gotten the idea that similar tractors were used > in Philadelphia also. Were there such? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: Re: [PRR] Street tractors. Was: More pictures... Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:38:58 -0400 Hi all, I have a page on my site dedicated to these street tractors. I have about a dozen photos of them online. They're all either in Jersey City or Baltimore. Books say that they were used in Philly also but I haven't seen a photo... The page is at: http://prr.railfan.net/RubberTiredSwitchers.html I'm trying to gather more information on these critters. If you have any info that I can add to the page or photos that I can use, please e-mail! Did they have a PRR class? I'm especially interested in obtaining PRR drawings or diagrams for them.. Thanks! Rob -----Original Message----- From: robert netzlof To: Benjamin Frank Hom ; John H. Wright Cc: PRR Talk Date: Monday, April 03, 2000 11:56 AM Subject: [PRR] Street tractors. Was: More pictures... >--- Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: >> John, list, > >> Also, the street tractors are from Baltimore (Fells >> Point), not Boston. >> > >I had gotten the idea that similar tractors were used >in Philadelphia also. Were there such? > >===== >Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:00:15 -0400 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch Hi everyone, You guys got me hooked on the Elmira Branch about 2 months ago and since then I have been aquiring as much info as I can (afford) on it. I've got Caloroso's book and the Northern Central book. Does anyone have an idea where I can get more photo's. I'm focusing on 1956-57 timeframe. Thanks Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 Elmira Branch circa 1956-57 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:15:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch From: Jerry Britton On 4/3/00 1:00 PM, Mike Morrow (morrow4@bellatlantic.net) wrote: > You guys got me hooked on the Elmira Branch about 2 months ago and since > then I have been aquiring as much info as I can (afford) on it. I've got > Caloroso's book and the Northern Central book. Does anyone have an idea > where I can get more photo's. I'm focusing on 1956-57 timeframe. Thanks > The late John Keel sent me a couple of photos before he passed away. I'll see if I can get them uploaded this week. Do you have Gunnarson's book on the "History of the Northern Central Railway"? The Elmira Branch was its PRR name, but it was built and operated by the NCRy until the PRR lease in the 19-teens. This book has some good info and photos as well. I believe Randy Williamson just acquired some maps. Randy, if you care to send them to me for scanning I'll get them right back to you. (Yeah, right! No, actually, I am almost done with all of your other charts!) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:24:19 -0400 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Russian? Last night I was watching a video on the Illinios Railway Museum that I bought when I was up there. They had a segment on their operational Frisco russain #1630. The narrator said this locomotive had an interesting history and was operated by the Pennsylvania Railroad and then the St. Louis and San Fran. Railroad. Does anyone know if this is true? I think it just might be a mistake, but I am very curious. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Russian? Eric, I can't speak for that particular Russian 2-10-0 as an x-PRR loco but in a back issue of the Keystone (question and answer section) someone asked if the Pennsy had these locos. The answer was yes! There were several used at Conway yards as trimmer engines (circa 1919?). Is this statement true?, I do not know. That Keystone issue is the only place I have ever seen that mentioned those 2-10-0's in Pennsy service.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] former PRR trackage Date: Mon, 3 Apr 100 13:45:20 -0400 (EDT) lew matt wrote: > > > > Hey guys: > > Check out this news article on CSX track work. > > http://www.msnbc.com/local/rtpa/4439.asp Andy Miller scribit: > > Sounds more like former RF&P (CSX, VRE, and Amtrak) and B&O (Amtrak > DC-Chicago)track. Actually, no. Former PRR. Article says: Two such wide areas were found in the District of Columbia on the line used by Amtrak, Virginia Railway Express and all north-south CSX freight trains. This describes perfectly the PRR combined trackage from VIRGINIA tower to the Long Bridge over the Potomac. At Virginia, the trackage split into the passenger line (NE, then N) and freight line (basically E). The passenger line quickly went from PRR to WUT (Washington Union Terminal) Co. ownership, whereas the other remained PRR its entire length. WUT owned through the station and to the north side of it, where B&O split off, then PRR owned again along New York Ave. (US 50). This passenger line and the freight line rejoined at LANDOVER tower. To complicate matters further, CSX (and predecessors) had trackage rights over the PRR freight line to a location near ANACOSTIA tower (between VIRGINIA and LANDOVER) where a B&O line peeled off and ultimately crossed over PRR to join the other B&O trackage. RF&P, to my knowledge, had no trackage in the state of Maryland. I have never quite figured out where all the property lines were. If someone could enlighten me (and the list), it would be most interesting I think. I am in possession of a WUT Co. ETT from 1978 which has maps in the back. There are dashed lines just north of the southbound home signals for VIRGINIA which may be a property line, but it is not specifically marked as such. On the other end, the property boundary between WUT and B&O and/or Amtrak is not marked at all. And I'd like to know where the property boundary was between PRR and RF&P. -- Mark D. Bej, M.D. bejm@eeg.ccf.org Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders Section of Neurological Computing Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 (nonclinical only) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:04:45 -0400 I've seen some video of the Elmira branch on some of the PRR commercial videos. Herron's Pennsy Glory 3 is one, if I remember right.l Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: Mike Morrow To: PRR-Talk Date: Monday, April 03, 2000 1:03 PM Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch >Hi everyone, >You guys got me hooked on the Elmira Branch about 2 months ago and since >then I have been aquiring as much info as I can (afford) on it. I've got >Caloroso's book and the Northern Central book. Does anyone have an idea >where I can get more photo's. I'm focusing on 1956-57 timeframe. Thanks > >Mike Morrow >PRRT&HS #6703 >Elmira Branch circa 1956-57 > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:35:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin in Boston? Hi all, As I am far from my usual haunts, and streaming email on the "fly" I wanted to ask if anyone was aware of a Pennsy cabin car in Boston? Specifically, I saw what looked to be an N-5 in Conrail paint on blocks in an industrial area near the tunnel from Logan (West 1st between Aves D and E). Of course, this was on the fly from the shuttle van window...and I'm not terribly sure that I wnt to venture back into the neighborhood to try to get some photos, unless y'all can confirm that this is an N-5! Happy Rails, from Beantown Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:36:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Atglen and Susquehanna Line >Hello all. I am interested in modeling the Atglen and Susquehanna freight >line and would like to know what resources there are out there. I'd love to >find photos or drawings of Smith Tower and any books or articles or track >plans related to the Low Grade Line. I'm modeling in O scale and my >interest is in heavy electrics. > >Thanks in advance, > >Thomas Richards >Cambridge, MA Gee Thomas, If only I'd known! I am currently staying just acros the river at the Backbay Hilton! I am an avid fan of the A&S and could have brought some of my materials, as I am planning to model the area around Columbia including the A&S C&PD, Columbia branch etc. Will you be modeling the bridges at Safe Harbor? What is the extent of the branch that you intend to model? BTW, an excellent article on the A&S is available in a past issue of the Keystone (written by Fred Abendeschein) and I believe that Smith tower may be shown...although I'm working without a net here! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:47:05 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin in Boston? Next time I'm near the airport (and have the time) I'll have to check it out. The only PRR hardware I'm familiar with in Boston is a B60b in the Allston yard (visible from the turnpike) and the diner from the Senator, attached to a restaurant in Watertown. Unfortunatly its on the side of the building against another building and only the end is visible - and on this they glued a mock open platform!!!! How the mighty have fallen :-( Bruce F Smith wrote: > > Hi all, > > As I am far from my usual haunts, and streaming email on the "fly" I > wanted to ask if anyone was aware of a Pennsy cabin car in Boston? > > Specifically, I saw what looked to be an N-5 in Conrail paint on blocks in > an industrial area near the tunnel from Logan (West 1st between Aves D and > E). Of course, this was on the fly from the shuttle van window...and I'm > not terribly sure that I wnt to venture back into the neighborhood to try > to get some photos, unless y'all can confirm that this is an N-5! > > Happy Rails, from Beantown > Bruce > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] K4's in freight service Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:25:21 -0400 PRR Gize: Once in a great while, I come across pictures of K-4s hauling freight trains. I was wondering on how rare (or common) that this practice was. Was it more common in certan parts of the railroad than in other areas? Did it occur basically to balance power? The photos taken indicate to me that although it was rare, K-4's on frieght trains were common enough to be caught on film. Any thoughts? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4's in freight service Ted, Good question. My answer, well more of a guess, is they used the K4 on freight trains when in a pinch for power. Possibly power moves also. As many here know, I collect PRR Photos. 3500+ or so now i my collection. I probably have about 700+ K4 photographs. Maybe more. I can recall on 1 photo, possibly 2 photos, K4s seen in freight service. I know one photo shows a double headed K4 on a reefer train. I believe the location was out in Indiana or Illinois. I think I have that picture scanned so I will return shortly with the url for all to see. I also recall seeing photos in books as well but can't think of any off hand.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4's in freight service Ted, List, That was easy. My photo of the Double Headed K4's is located on my 1st website listed below. It is on the first page and easily found. The photo was taken in Ill. in the 1930's....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:44:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-58 box cars Fred, Unfortunately not kit built cars are accurate enough for the X-58, they all require work. Years ago I did an article on the X-58, but the ends were wrong but a better choie than the Athearn car. I would change that and the roof is a problem, but not an easy fix either. Then there is the matter of the side ribs which need to be extended. If I were a betting man, I would say it is always going to be a major kitbash, but not beyonf the relm of good modeling. Greg Martin In a message dated Mon, 3 Apr 2000 Fred G Rea writes: << Are there any decent kits for the PRR X-58 box cars? Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4's in freight service Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:52:13 -0400 Gary: Thanks for the info. As a matter of fact, your picture prompted my question to begin with. I was looking at your web pages last week. There is another photo of a K-4 on a freight. It appeared in the Keystone in 1982-4. It was the James Lynch article on the Logansport Division. The K-4 was doubleheaded with consolidation northbound on the South Bend Branch in Plymouth, Indiana Ted -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 2:44 PM To: Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] K4's in freight service Ted, List, That was easy. My photo of the Double Headed K4's is located on my 1st website listed below. It is on the first page and easily found. The photo was taken in Ill. in the 1930's....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4's in freight service Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:26:57 -0400 This is only a guess based on practices by other railroads, but here goes. K-4's were used on milk trains, which were sort of freight/reefer trains. One of them, RJ-4, ran from Renovo to Jersey City, and east of Harrisburg made as good or better time than the Boradway, which had station stops. I have also seen passenger engines used for freight service when testing and breaking them in after a major shopping. They would often be used on freight locals. Not sure what PRR's practice was. I would also assume that on rare occasions there would be power shortages that would lead to the practice. Hopefully someone on the list knows for sure. I hate guessing, especially in front (cyberly speaking) of so many knowledgeable people! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted To: 'PRR-Talk' Date: Monday, April 03, 2000 3:25 PM Subject: [PRR] K4's in freight service >PRR Gize: > > >Once in a great while, I come across pictures of K-4s hauling freight >trains. I was wondering on how rare (or common) that this practice was. Was >it more common in certan parts of the railroad than in other areas? Did it >occur basically to balance power? > >The photos taken indicate to me that although it was rare, K-4's on frieght >trains were common enough to be caught on film. > >Any thoughts? > > >Ted Andrews >Carmel, Indiana > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:46:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K4's in freight service In a message dated 4/3/00 2:33:11 PM Central Daylight Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << Once in a great while, I come across pictures of K-4s hauling freight trains. I was wondering on how rare (or common) that this practice was. >> Funny you should ask. I was just reading the Autumn 99 issue of the Keystone article by former fireman/engineman John R. Ashmore on "Practical Steam Locomotive Firing (a truly fascinating and engrossing article, BTW) and he mentioned a freight doubleheader with L1s and K4s. The L1s was usually the lead engine on a freight, but in the incident he relates, the L1s stoker malfunctioned enroute so they switched the K4s to the lead. The freight was A5 from Greenville Yard (S. Jersey City) to Camden. The year was 1952. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:53:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K4's in freight service In a message dated 4/3/00 2:33:11 PM Central Daylight Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << I was wondering on how rare (or common) that this practice was. Was it more common in certan parts of the railroad than in other areas? >> Another incident just occured to me, but I need to search the dim recesses of my memory to find the documentation. I seem to recall that one of the fast freights out of Chicago which I believe either left Polk Street freighthouse (LCL?) or the through track at CUS (hot traffic from the West?)rather than 55th St. was occasionally assigned a K4. Maybe an excuse to pull some of those Merchandise Service cars with a K4 after all? Would love to see a photo which documented this. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:34:07 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin in Boston? Bruce F Smith wrote: > Hi all, > As I am far from my usual haunts, and streaming email on the "fly" I > wanted to ask if anyone was aware of a Pennsy cabin car in Boston? could be. > Specifically, I saw what looked to be an N-5 in Conrail paint on blocks in > an industrial area near the tunnel from Logan (West 1st between Aves D and > E). Of course, this was on the fly from the shuttle van window...and I'm > not terribly sure that I wnt to venture back into the neighborhood to try > to get some photos, unless y'all can confirm that this is an N-5! I've taken the liberty of posting to the NERAIL list. We shall see what the collective wisdom is... Had it not been for the 'on blocks', I'd Assume it was something to do with big-dig spoil trains... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Interesting sighting From: Fred G Rea Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:48:15 EDT I saw an interesting Ohio license plate today. PRR-GG1 ! I was following it on the East side of Columbus Ohio, in pouring rain and heavy traffic, no chance to say "Hi". Was it anyone on the list, or anybody know this person? Someone has a more than passing interest in our RR. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:29:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [CR] Re: RF & P Interface [PRR] From: Michael Allen Jeff et alia Some where in my references are several pictures of Florida-bound streamliners with ACL et c power at 30th Street MEA The following has been massivilly snipped: On Sat, 01 Apr 2000 22:04:20 -0500 Jeff Knorek writes: > > > Dennis Rockwell wrote in reply to charlie: > > (Charlie) > >> Was there a working interface between the PRR > >> and the RF & P? If so what > >> level of involvement existed? > > > Sure! Potomac Yard, the very northern end of the RF & P. Parts > of the yard were electrified so that the PRR freight motors could > run into the yard. > > My friend George Paine replied to Charlie's question at some length. > He writes: > > > power was always changed at Washington; RF&P steam (later diesel) > for PRR steam (later electric). in history it's always easy to say > "usually" but hard to say either "never" or "always", but I'm > unaware of any exceptions to this. so to fit your RF&P locomotive > in, > all you need to do is include Washington Terminal (and perhaps the > Ivy > City roundhouse). in steam days power was always changed at > Richmond, but after dieselisation and the introduction of lightweight > passenger cars, some (but not all) ACL and SCL units would run through to > Washington (and, conversely, some RF&P units would show up in > Florida). so if you run to diesels you can put some small number of > white, and of purple, units into Ivy City. I remember seeing them > there in the days before Amtrak. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:52:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [CR] Re: RF & P Interface [PRR] Ball's book The PRR in the 40's and 50's shows ACL and RF&P E units at 30th St. when the g's were having te snow ingestion problems. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:09:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Atglen & Susquehanna / Main Line / Hobo's Guide From: Jerry Britton Two line histories have been added to the Hobo's Guide to the Pennsy: Main line from Washington thru Baltimore Atglen & Susquehanna Branch See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/ Thanks to the contributors, and apologies for taking so long to post them! If anyone else wants to contribute, visit the above URL and pick a branch that's not on the list! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 14:15:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] CT220's From: Jerry Britton Anyone have any CT220's -- passenger train consist reports? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 14:25:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Official Register of Passenger Equipment From: Jerry Britton Anyone have the 1954 edition of the Official Register of Passenger Equipment? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:48:53 -0400 From: davep Subject: [Fwd: RE: [NERAIL] [Fwd: [PRR] PRR Cabin in Boston?]] Colleagues: Confirmed? Anyway, enough for the interested to trace it... 1) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: [NERAIL] [Fwd: [PRR] PRR Cabin in Boston?] Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:19:05 -0400 From: "Reading, John (COGRA)" March Callboy, Message Wire excerpt: Effective 2/18, the hand-throw switch off Track 1 on the Eastern Route in Chelsea was out of service for future removal. This switch, east of the station at Arlington and 6th Streets, had been used for maintenance-of-way purposes when the T rehabbed the Eastern Route from Everett Jct. and Salem. It connected to the remnant of CSX's ex-Boston & Albany Grand Junction Branch, once Conrail's access to East Boston, allowing CR to abandon the parallel Grand Junction track to the New England Produce Center. Until the mid-1990s, CR used trackage rights on the Eastern Route from Everett Jct. to Revere and down the B&M East Boston Branch (the original Eastern Railroad right of way) to serve the Mobil plant. The Grand Junction in East Boston, isolated since the counterweight of B&A's Chelsea Creek draw-bridge fell off in 1955, has been torn up south of Day Square for the Greenway project. *** CSX donated an old caboose for a Greenway park off Meridian St. *** Track is still in to Bell Steel, which hasn't received rail shipments in a long time. At the tank farm on the Revere-East Boston border, the old warehouses are being torn down, leaving only oil docks for tank cars and trucks. By the Railroad St. crossing is a small rail yard; Guilford uses one track to set off tank cars at about 11 PM twice a week. ======================= (2) ========================= Subject: Re: [NERAIL] [Fwd: [PRR] PRR Cabin in Boston?] Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:16:27 EDT From: Michael Clements To: NERAIL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Yes sir, it is located near the A Street Yard in South Boston at the Shaugnessey Crane Co. It is on Roger K.'s list too. ======================== best dwp MC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:34:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] New Pennsy Book Folks, My local hobby shop fella just called and tells me he has a new Pennsy 'picture book' from Four Ways West, for a change of pace. Guess the title is something like The Pennsylvania railroad Altoona to New York". Anyone seen this yet, or even heard of it? I probably won't be able to resist a copy this weekend if the Morning Sun trackside Philley hasn't arrived yet. (I can't afford both at one hit at the moment what with all the layout building going ahead down in the nether regions of the house). Well, anyway, keep an eye out. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:39:06 -0400 From: "John Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [CR] Re: RF & P Interface [PRR] It seems like I've seen pictues of RF&P and/or ACL E's north of Washington when GG-1's were disabled by snow in air intakes. I don't remember where the pics were. John Ryan Michael Allen wrote: > Jeff et alia > > Some where in my references are several pictures of Florida-bound > streamliners with ACL et c power at 30th Street > > MEA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:19:18 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4's in freight service Ted, list, Just common enough to be documented. In the Altoona-Pittsburg area K4s engines occasionally hauled freight east (light tonnage relative to what the freight power usually lugged) to balance power. I've also seen shots of K4s engines double headed near Chicago with freight. At the same time, by the late 30s and beyond, with relatively few other passenger engines (most of the early Atlantics and K2s/K2sa Pacifics having been scrapped by 1939, with a few surivivors hanging on until the late 40s), the K4s engines active were nearly always involved in speeding passenger trains along. While use of passenger power in freight service may seem odd, remember that a K4s Pacific's tractive force is equivalent to that of an H8sb class engine (44,460 for the K4s and 45327 for the H8sb). Doug "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > PRR Gize: > > Once in a great while, I come across pictures of K-4s hauling freight > trains. I was wondering on how rare (or common) that this practice was. Was > it more common in certan parts of the railroad than in other areas? Did it > occur basically to balance power? > > The photos taken indicate to me that although it was rare, K-4's on frieght > trains were common enough to be caught on film. > > Any thoughts? > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Intermountain body shells From: Fred G Rea Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:50:46 EDT Can anyone tell me what power chassis would be best with the Intermountain F B-unit body shell ? Thanks Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Convention -- Added Event Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:21:26 -0400 You got me too Jerry. Unfortunately when you are lurking in the shadows, there is not enough light to make out all the words . Carl P. Izzo PRRT&HS #0832 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention -- Added Event -- APRIL FOOL's From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:35:02 -0400 Geez! The following post that I made last evening was supposed to be this year's April Fool's gig, but either everyone was off-line or it sounded too plausible. Nobody made mention of it!!! Lots of folks anticipate something to happen each year, but this makes two sleeper years in a row! No, there is no excursion as described. Until next year... On 4/1/00 5:33 PM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: tserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Official Register of Passenger Equipment Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:04:05 -0400 Howdy Jerry: 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956 Official Rgeister of Passenger Equipment issues on hand Cos ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 2:25 PM Subject: [PRR] Official Register of Passenger Equipment > > List-Unsubscribe: > > Anyone have the 1954 edition of the Official Register of Passenger > Equipment? > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) > http://www.brasstrains.net > For Dealers and Manufacturers > http://www.modelrailroadnews.net > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:10:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting sighting In a message dated 00-04-03 23:02:09 EDT, fredrea@juno.com writes: << Was it anyone on the list, or anybody know this person? >> Don't know, but there's somebody around Philly with the identical PRR-GG1 on a Pennsylvania tag. I believe I saw it on a third state's car also. There's no reason that there wouldn't be one in every Eastern state which allows vanity tags! Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:17:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New Pennsy Book Barry and all, I picked up the book this past weekend at the Timonium Train show for $40. Dave was signing the books, after taking off the shrink wrap it smelled like it just came off the press. It is similiar in format to the Pennsy Diesel Years books. Good pictures and as was mentioned most have not been published before. Still not enough Northern Division photos for me, but this book was Altoona to New York, maybe a future book will have more. I also picked up a the Elmira branch book for $23 so I haven't read all of the New book yet. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Wreck Photos Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:43:08 -0400 Hi All, I have just posted more official PRR diesel wreck photos in the photos section of the Yahoo Pennsylvania railroad club. http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/pennslyvaniarailroad Yes, I know it is spelled wrong - sorry. Anyway, does anyone know when, where, and why F-3 # 5901a went for a big dump? I am guessing it is in the mid-50s from the date on the rear coupler. The PRR chose to fix her. There is also a freshly painted Baldwin Switcher # 5959 , wrecked Centipedes, and an E-8a Any help would be most appreciated. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:48:41 -0400 From: Richard Campbell Subject: [PRR] PCL Anyone have the address of the Passenger Car List Thanks Neil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:51:44 -0400 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain body shells The shells were designed for an Athearn or Stewart/Kato chassis but I have customers that have had good success using a Proto 1000 chassis. Frank Brua Fred G Rea wrote: > Can anyone tell me what power chassis would be best with the > Intermountain F B-unit body shell ? > > Thanks > > Fred Rea > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:52:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PCL In a message dated 4/5/00 6:50:01 AM Central Daylight Time, pennsyneil@home.com writes: << Anyone have the address of the Passenger Car List >> pcl@nshore.org is what I have as most recent. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: [PRR] BOWSER announces the N5 / N5C Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:31:50 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: threebutchers@cs.com [mailto:threebutchers@cs.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:20 AM To: N@egroups.com; n_scale@egroups.com; PRR@egroups.com; PROTOTYPEModeler@egroups.com Subject: [PM-list] PRR, LIRR, NH N-Scale interest...BOWSER announces the N5 / N5C List / Pennsy Fans... BOWSER has formally announced the PRR N5 caboose, with the N5C soon to follow. Paint schemes will vary from as-built to CONRAIL. Previously, these prototypes have only been available in brass from Con-Cor, Quality-Craft, Precision Scale, and KEY. Most of these offerings were LOADED with errors and inaccuracies, so if BOWSER follows the quality of their HO offering, we will have a great model we can afford to own and model in virtually any variation. HOWEVER, I was informed by Lee English of BOWSER that they WILL NOT BE OFFERING THE CORRECT "Pennsy" CABOOSE TRUCK, but Atlas' Bettendorf as a substitute. The correct truck has the VERY distinct spotting features of high arch and a single spring. This same truck was used on nearly every Pennsy caboose class until the N8 in 1950. Lee is concerned about adding the additional cost to the product (@ $5). He also said that feedback from others indicated the correct truck "does not matter." It is not too late....please e-mail Lee English at BOWSER and let him know you want the correct truck......Microtrains compatible for wheelset and coupler conversion. Let him know there is a tremendous secondary market for the truck to upgrade previously released kits like the GLOORCRAFT, Con-Cor, brass, etc. Since this is BOWSERS first N Tooling, they are VERY interested in feedback. If you know of others who would be concerned as well, please forward on this e-mail so they can contact BOWSER as well... bowser@uplink.com Thanks in advance; Brian Butcher PRRT&HS #5540 PRR 30s-50s 1/160th ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click.egroups.com/1/936/0/_/702554/_/954940797/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Community email addresses: Post message: PROTOTYPEmodeler@onelist.com Subscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-subscribe@onelist.com Unsubscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-unsubscribe@onelist.com List owner: PROTOTYPEmodeler-owner@onelist.com Shortcut URL to this page: http://www.onelist.com/community/PROTOTYPEmodeler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:46:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain body shells In a message dated 04/04/2000 22:06:48 Eastern Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: > Can anyone tell me what power chassis would be best with the > Intermountain F B-unit body shell ? > They slip right onto the Steward frame. Use the ones with Kato drive if you can find them. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Intermountain body shells Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:01:22 -0400 I was just wondering... Has the PRR units come out yet? If so, how good is the paint job and lettering? Is it a good shade of Brunswick Green? Is the striping and lettering crisp and straight? Is the lettering the correct size and type set? Thank you in advance for any information that you can relay. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com [mailto:SUVCWORR@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 8:46 AM To: fredrea@juno.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain body shells In a message dated 04/04/2000 22:06:48 Eastern Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: > Can anyone tell me what power chassis would be best with the > Intermountain F B-unit body shell ? > They slip right onto the Steward frame. Use the ones with Kato drive if you can find them. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:23:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Custom Finishing Work Sought From: Jerry Britton I am looking to establish a relationship with one or more individuals to custom build/detail/paint numerous locomotives for me on a barter arrangement. The desired person would have the available time to do my work, since I don't, which is what is creating this need. I would supply all detail parts per your specifications. In return, the selected individual would receive model railroad product at wholesale pricing (and/or commercial web/eCommerce hosting). Leave me to work on the web site, which I am good at, and I'll leave you to work on the painting/detailing, which I am not good at!!! Please contact me off-list if you might be interested. -------- Some of the work to be performed: Bowser K-4 -- Complete kit underway; already in running mode. Need to finish detail parts, add DCC decoder, paint, letter, and weather. Bowser H-9 -- Completely build kit. Need to add detail parts, DCC decoder, paint, letter, and weather. Bachmann Spectrum K4's (2) -- Add DCC decoders, detail parts, weather. LL P2K E7's ABA (2 sets) -- Add DCC decoders, detail parts, weather. LL P2K PA1's ABA (2 sets) -- Add DCC decoders, detail parts, weather. LL P2K FA2's AB -- Add DCC decoder, detail parts, weather. LL P2K GP7's (3) -- Add DCC decoders, detail parts, weather. LL P2K SW900's (2) -- Add DCC decoders, detail parts, weather. LL P1K F3's ABA -- Add DCC decoders, detail parts, weather. E-R Models RF-16 A's (4) -- Add DCC decoders, detail parts, weather. Atlas S-2 -- Add DCC decoder, detail parts, weather. Atlas S-4 -- Add DCC decoder, detail parts, weather. Atlas RS-1 -- Add DCC decoder, detail parts, weather. Miracle Castings BP20's ABA -- Build up, paint, add DCC decoders, detail parts, weather. Miracle Castings Erie-built's ABA -- Build up, paint, add DCC decoders, detail parts, weather. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Mystery loco 6799 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:10:28 +0100 Can anyone tell me what class of loco this is, please? http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm It's the one labelled FS??? It looks like a Fairbanks-Morse road switcher (FRS24m) but appears to have 4 wheel trucks (Bo-Bo in UK terms) instead of the 6 wheel trucks on the FS24m. Nor can I find any reference to a loco with the (new) number 6799 in Pennsy Power 2 or 3. The only clue is there's a reference to a class FRS20 in PP 3 (but no photo). Any offers? Regards, John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:29:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery loco 6799 From: Jerry Britton On 4/5/00 2:10 PM, John H. Wright (johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk) wrote: > Can anyone tell me what class of loco this is, please? > > http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm > > It's the one labelled FS??? > > It looks like a Fairbanks-Morse road switcher (FRS24m) but appears to have 4 > wheel trucks (Bo-Bo in UK terms) instead of the 6 wheel trucks on the FS24m. > Nor can I find any reference to a loco with the (new) number 6799 in Pennsy > Power 2 or 3. The only clue is there's a reference to a class FRS20 in PP 3 > (but no photo). Now you've done it!!! I thought I'd be cocky and perform a real quick check on my own web site's searchable diesel roster... but, according to it, there never was a diesel numbered 6799...yet you have a photo of it!!! I then searched for any road number beginning with "67". Still nothing. Did a search on class FS24. Came up with 9 units. All start with "87xx" except for "8699". Did a search on class FRS24. No matches. Was this a valid class? What would the "R" refer to? My hunch... this photo was taken just after the Penn Central merger. The unit still bears Pennsylvania livery, but had to be renumbered due to a conflict with a New York Central number. To support my hunch, look how bright white the number is. Was likely just painted. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:49:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery loco 6799 The 6799 was the ex PC 6700 the ex PRR 6700 H24-66. The unit was renumbered to 6799 from 6700 to make room for the new U-23C's that had been ordered. THis was the last H24-66 still on the roster. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:03:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] New Pennsy Book Guys, Thanks for the tips on the "PRR Altoona to New York City " book. Guess here's something else I better fit into my budget. (Not easy around tax time). Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:04:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery loco 6799 In a message dated 4/5/00 1:19:14 PM Central Daylight Time, johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk writes: << Can anyone tell me what class of loco this is, please? >> Picture is a little dark, but looks like an FS16m, Baby Trainmaster. Probably one of the Penn Central sites has a number crossreference which would confirm(or deny) it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:00:00 -0400 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? Hello all- Did PRR arrange their GP7 and GP9 locomotives long hood forward or short hood forward? thank you- Jeff Knorek ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:03:39 -0500 From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] Re: K-4s in Freight Service Ball's book, The Pennsylvania RR 1940-1950's has a picture of a K-4s at Greenwood, Delaware on a work train John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:27:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steel water tank color Local O gauge PRR modeler not on the net asked me what color the steel water tanks (ala the Overland models) were painted. Can anyone help? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:51:59 -0400 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Marker Light Lens Colors Need some help from the List - I am apparently having a "senior moment". I remember reading an interesting article on the color of marker light lenses on Pennsy stream engines but can't for the life of me remember where I saw it. It included a time line on when the various lens colors changed plus timeframe in which they eliminated the marker lights from steam engine pilot beams. Anybody on the list recall what I am talking about and where I can find the article?? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Marker Light Lens Colors Frank, My brother asked this same question on the PRRT&HS discussion group. At that time I didn't know the exact combinations of the colors either. This is what I can recall as to what the answer was. Class Lights: Those located on the Smoke Box. These were green green clear clear. Meanng if Green was facing forward Green also faced to the outsides. If Clear was facing forward Clear would then have to be to the outsides as well. Pilot Beam Markers: Colors would be red red amber amber. Meaning if Red faced forward Red had to be display to the outsides. If Amber faced forward then Amber would have to be displayed to the outsides as well. The Tender markers are the same rules as the Pilot Markers. Now when the Pennsy started using the small bullseye class lights, things changed because only one lens was in that style of lights. I am not sure but I think those lights were either clear or red. I believe they changed colors electrically. I don't know if green was involved or not. That info is still quite scetchy. Hopefll someone can add to what I was told....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 19:44:14 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? Jeff: The Pennsy ran just about all of their hoods long hood forward. I believe this stopped with the RSD15. Maybe the RSD7. Larry Jeff Knorek wrote: > Hello all- > Did PRR arrange their GP7 and GP9 locomotives > long hood forward or short hood forward? > > thank you- > Jeff Knorek > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? GP9 and 7 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:01:32 -0400 On the same vein.... Does anyone know where to get the conversion kit in HO to make a Beep9, the "B" unit GP9??? Lew Matt -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Knorek To: PRR Talk Date: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:07 PM Subject: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? >Hello all- >Did PRR arrange their GP7 and GP9 locomotives >long hood forward or short hood forward? > >thank you- > Jeff Knorek > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:09:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Marker Light Lens Colors In regards to the colors of the markers (I'm not talking about the class lights here) the colors changed sometime between 1910 and 1925. I have copies of the Rule Book from those two years, and both use color on the drawings of the lights that accompany the text of the rules. In 1910, the marker lights are all shown as being red-green-green-green. In the 1925 book, the markers are red-yellow-yellow-yellow. I haven't found a definite time as to when the change occurred. Some one else on the list may know. Also, the rules on which colors faced which way on the markers is a bit more complicated. I'll have to look it up again before I report back again, but I recall that if the train is in a passing siding waiting for an opposing train, the rules indicated that the yellow or green lights should face forward (backward on the cabin, of course). This would indicate to the other train that they were safely off the "main" and completely "in the hole". I suspect that these types of rules are why the second color on the marker was changed from green to yellow: it eliminated the possibility of mistaking green class lights for green marker lights! Again, though, I've never seen it spelled out explicitly why they were changed, nor exactly when. Hope this helps. Jim Anderson Thorndale, PA sny114@aol.com PRRT&HS 3995 Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:11:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steel water tank color In every picture I've ever seen of the steel water tanks, both color and b&w, they appear to be all black. Probably flat black, since I would think that any gloss would quickly fade. Jim Anderson Thorndale, PA sny114@aol.com PRRT&HS 3995 Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dmurp670@cs.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:34:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER announces the N5 / N5C In a message dated 4/5/00 9:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cevans@onlinesecurities.net writes: > BOWSER has formally announced the PRR N5 caboose, with the N5C soon to > follow. Paint schemes will vary from as-built to CONRAIL. Previously, these > prototypes have only been available in brass from Con-Cor, Quality-Craft, > Precision Scale, and KEY. Most of these offerings were LOADED with errors > and > inaccuracies, so if BOWSER follows the quality of their HO offering, we will > have a great model we can afford to own and model in virtually any > variation. > Greetings! I just resubscribed to the list and found the annoucement about Bowser's N5 and N5C. I've been buying these for years. I don't think they are "new" models or am I missing something? Don Murphy The Renovo Dispatcher ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dmurp670@cs.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:37:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER announces the N5 / N5C In a message dated 4/5/00 9:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cevans@onlinesecurities.net writes: > Since this is BOWSERS first N Tooling, they are VERY interested in feedback. Oops! I did miss something. Egads! It's N scale. Don Murphy The Nbarresed Renovo Dispatcher ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER announces the N5 / N5C Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:41:12 -0400 I was hoping he meant Nscale. Mark Franke MD ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER announces the N5 / N5C > In a message dated 4/5/00 9:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > cevans@onlinesecurities.net writes: > > > BOWSER has formally announced the PRR N5 caboose, with the N5C soon to > > follow. Paint schemes will vary from as-built to CONRAIL. Previously, these > > prototypes have only been available in brass from Con-Cor, Quality-Craft, > > Precision Scale, and KEY. Most of these offerings were LOADED with errors > > and > > inaccuracies, so if BOWSER follows the quality of their HO offering, we > will > > have a great model we can afford to own and model in virtually any > > variation. > > > > Greetings! > > I just resubscribed to the list and found the annoucement about Bowser's N5 > and N5C. I've been buying these for years. I don't think they are "new" > models or am I missing something? > > Don Murphy > The Renovo Dispatcher > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? GP9 and 7 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:00:57 -0400 Lew, Depends on the GP-9 you use. Hi-Tech makes one for the Proto-2000 unit. Smokey Valley makes two - one for Athearn and one for FRP. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: lew matt To: PRR talk Date: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? GP9 and 7 >On the same vein.... Does anyone know where to get the conversion kit in HO >to make a Beep9, the "B" unit GP9??? > >Lew Matt > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Knorek >To: PRR Talk >Date: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:07 PM >Subject: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? > > >>Hello all- >>Did PRR arrange their GP7 and GP9 locomotives >>long hood forward or short hood forward? >> >>thank you- >> Jeff Knorek >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 19:01:01 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER announces the N5 / N5C Yeah, you are missing something--these are in N scale. Chuck F. Dmurp670@cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/5/00 9:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > cevans@onlinesecurities.net writes: > > > BOWSER has formally announced the PRR N5 caboose, with the N5C soon to > > follow. Paint schemes will vary from as-built to CONRAIL. Previously, these > > prototypes have only been available in brass from Con-Cor, Quality-Craft, > > Precision Scale, and KEY. Most of these offerings were LOADED with errors > > and > > inaccuracies, so if BOWSER follows the quality of their HO offering, we > will > > have a great model we can afford to own and model in virtually any > > variation. > > > > Greetings! > > I just resubscribed to the list and found the annoucement about Bowser's N5 > and N5C. I've been buying these for years. I don't think they are "new" > models or am I missing something? > > Don Murphy > The Renovo Dispatcher > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:49:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery loco 6799 In a message dated 4/5/00 12:19:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time, johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk writes: << Can anyone tell me what class of loco this is, please? http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm It's the one labelled FS??? >> That is a Fairbanks Morse H10-44 switcher. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:08:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bowser N Scale N5 Cabins Trucks From: Jerry Britton I contacted Lee English about the wrong trucks being planned for the forthcoming Bowser N scale N5 and N5c cabins. Here is his response... On 4/6/00 8:32 AM, Lee English (bowser@uplink.net) wrote: > Correct truck N-5 will add about $7.50 to the list price of the car > It will be $19.95 with Bettendorf or $$27.50 with PRR > Help us decide as it is not too late. > The PRR n-5c will follow the N-5 Please contact him direct with your preferences. This is YOUR CHANCE to make a difference! I had related to him that I felt PRR modelers would be willing to pay for the correct trucks. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:09:11 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Cabin Car Roger Kirkpatrick said: >There is PRR 477309/PC 19202/22984/CR 20063R, Class N-5B, at >Shaughnessey Crane, Cypher & D Sts., South Boston, MA. Could this be >it? Yes, I think that would be the most likely - the cabin was in an industrial area, and near D street (Cypher may be the other parallel street to the one I was on..). Any idea of the future of this cabin (ie office?, scrap?) There did appear to be some wheels nearby...perhaps refit and continued use ? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:15:00 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser N Scale N5 Cabins Trucks Hi All PRR N-Scalers, I've just sent off my response to Lee and would strongly urge those who this makes a difference to to send Lee your thoughts. Speak now or forever hold our peace. Thanks, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:38:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Dinner on Friday From: Jerry Britton Reminder that Cyber Division members and PRR-Talk subscribers are invited to a private dinner on Friday, May 5th. Seating is limited, but there are still seats available. This dinner is off-site, but only a block away. It was also scheduled at a time that will not conflict with any goings-on at the convention itself. Please contact me to make new reservations or to adjust existing reservations. Thank you!!! BTW: I will have something very "special" on display at my table!!! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:57:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Hood Forward? GP9 and 7 On the same vein.... Does anyone know where to get the conversion kit in HO to make a Beep9, the "B" unit GP9??? I used a GP18 with Detail West radiator grills and a Smokey Valley cab for the Athearn engine. I had to remove some material from the the roof due o the excess width of the Athearn GP9. Very easy conversion. By the way all GP9B's had 48" fans. That is why I used the GP18. Immediately got told by some blowhard at the hobby shop that I didn't know anything about PRR engines as they all had small fans and bet him he would pay me a buck for every picture of one with 48" fans and I would give him ten for every one with the small fans. Just had about 50 pictures with me that day. He still hasn't paid up. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Lima LS25m location query Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:30:44 +0100 New photo: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm This time I know that the loco is a Lima LS25m ( #5680 ) but does anyone know the location? As a modeller I find the buildings in the background fascinating and full of character.... especially the roadway coming out of them and slanting up and over the tracks. BTW thanks to everyone who replied re the "mystery locomotive." Mystery no longer. Regards, John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:33:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER announces the N5 / N5C In a message dated 04/05/2000 8:43:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dmurp670@cs.com writes: << I just resubscribed to the list and found the annoucement about Bowser's N5 and N5C. I've been buying these for years. I don't think they are "new" models or am I missing something? >> Don: I believe this is an announcement of N scale cars not the HO cars which have been available for years. I think you missed the original post. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:37:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] 6799 is a Trainmaster, not a baby In a message dated 4/5/2000 5:17:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 4/5/00 1:19:14 PM Central Daylight Time, johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk writes: << Can anyone tell me what class of loco this is, please? >> Picture is a little dark, but looks like an FS16m, Baby Trainmaster. Probably one of the Penn Central sites has a number crossreference which would confirm(or deny) it. Bob Zoeller >> In all the post-1966 numbering, a 6000 number indicates a 6-motor unit. IIRC, circa 1970 or so, all the active FM's had been moved to Chicago (Panhandle's 59th Street Yard). The remaining PC (ex-PRR) Trainmaster 6700 was renumbered in 1970 to 6799 to make room for new U23C's 6700-6718. According to Yanosey's Penn Central Power, 6799 didn't survive 1970 under that number. Interesting that the two rosters I have on hand seem to disagree whether PC6700/PC6799 was originally PRR 8700 or PRR 8699 (reference Yanosey PC Power vs Reid's Penn Central System Bi-Annual). See, even after the PC merger, the practice of sending the wierd and the unusual to Lines West continued..... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:03:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Another curious keystone, not Lines West I wonder if this is unusual -- found an 1896 PRR schedule card. Cover of this folder reads in part: Schedule of Through Trains. Pennsylvania Railroad between Boston, New York, Washington and Richmond with Arrangement of Parlor and Sleeping Cars. in effect June 28, 1896 (revised). Besides a timetable between Boston and Richmond and a couple of maps, this small 10-panel document describes connecting train consists (sleepers) for C&O, SOU, ACL, and Boston (NYNH&H). What caught my eye is the red keystone between two griffins on the cover. Those of you who followed us through the thread of offbeat Lines West heralds/monograms about 2 years ago will appreciate my excitement at seeing a keystone with "PRR" interlaced in the usual way, but with the bottom of a letter "L" protruding from the bottom of the "P". In other words, the upright stroke looks like it's both the vertical of a P, and the vertical of an L. It's not the same as the "PL" (Pennsylvania Lines) keystone in use by Lines West before 1920. OTOH, it's not that different. Are there other examples of this that I've simply ignored in the past, or is this a distinctly different rendering of the Lines East keystone? Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone 502-426-0089 (8am to 8pm please) Fax same number 3800 Little Bend Road Louisville, KY 40241-1625 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:03:36 EDT From: RickTipton@aol.com Subject: [PRR-FAX] Another curious keystone, not Lines West I wonder if this is unusual -- found an 1896 PRR schedule card. Cover of this folder reads in part: Schedule of Through Trains. Pennsylvania Railroad between Boston, New York, Washington and Richmond with Arrangement of Parlor and Sleeping Cars. in effect June 28, 1896 (revised). Besides a timetable between Boston and Richmond and a couple of maps, this small 10-panel document describes connecting train consists (sleepers) for C&O, SOU, ACL, and Boston (NYNH&H). What caught my eye is the red keystone between two griffins on the cover. Those of you who followed us through the thread of offbeat Lines West heralds/monograms about 2 years ago will appreciate my excitement at seeing a keystone with "PRR" interlaced in the usual way, but with the bottom of a letter "L" protruding from the bottom of the "P". In other words, the upright stroke looks like it's both the vertical of a P, and the vertical of an L. It's not the same as the "PL" (Pennsylvania Lines) keystone in use by Lines West before 1920. OTOH, it's not that different. Are there other examples of this that I've simply ignored in the past, or is this a distinctly different rendering of the Lines East keystone? Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone 502-426-0089 (8am to 8pm please) Fax same number 3800 Little Bend Road Louisville, KY 40241-1625 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click.egroups.com/1/936/4/_/586931/_/955092327/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:26:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] What was the Panhandle? (You had to ask) In a message dated 1/11/2000 5:25:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, VVA249 writes: << In a message dated 1/10/00 9:55:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << the Panhandle Railroad was a line of few miles (13?) that crossed West Virginia to reach Steubenville Ohio. This was an achievement partly because of the mountains in West Virginia's panhandle, but mostly because the territory had just ceased to be part of Virginia, a state that had long blocked Pennsy entry as a matter of policy.>> According to Railroad and State histories, the railroad had a great deal to do with the seccession of West Virginia from Virginia - at the beginning of the Civil War. The PRR helped grease the skids with lots of $$$ - starting a great tradition of graft in the new State. The Charter for the "Panhandle" was one of the first acts of the new West Va legislature Dick Ross >> And there's even a story -- just a rumor mind you -- that the Act of Congress admitting West Virginia to the Union was written by lawyers at Pennsy headquarters. They'd waited years to cross that little piece of Virginia, and the PRR wasted no time in organizing to cross the Panhandle into Ohio. Personally, I'm surprised there are no stories about the PRR influencing Union troops to "liberate" the right territory. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:44:03 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Another curious keystone, not Lines West --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > I wonder if this is unusual -- found an 1896 PRR > schedule card. > What caught my eye is the red keystone > with the bottom of a > letter "L" protruding from the bottom of the "P". Look at the antique PRR monogram on the start page of the PRRT&HS site. What you've written reads like a description of that. There was some discussion on PRR-talk a while ago about where that came from. Don't remember what conclusion, if any, that led to. I think the stroke at the bottom of the P is just one of several decorative flourishes added to the basic letter forms by the designer of that emblem. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:12:04 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] What was the Panhandle? (You had to ask) --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/11/2000 5:25:41 PM Eastern > Standard Time, VVA249 writes: > > << In a message dated 1/10/00 9:55:33 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > << the Panhandle Railroad was a line of few miles > (13?) that crossed West > Virginia to reach Steubenville Ohio. > mostly because the > territory had just ceased to be part of Virginia, > a state that had long > blocked Pennsy entry as a matter of policy.>> > > The PRR helped grease the skids with lots of $$$ - > starting a great > tradition of graft in the new State. The Charter for > the "Panhandle" was one > of the first acts of the new West Va legislature > > Dick Ross >> > the Act of Congress > admitting West Virginia to the Union was written by > lawyers at Pennsy > headquarters. > Personally, I'm surprised there are no stories about > the PRR influencing > Union troops to "liberate" the right territory. > By Jove, I think we're on to something here. Who was the Secretary of War? Simon Cameron of the Northern Central, that's who. And let's not forget that Hermann Haupt, formerly of the PRR engineering department worked his way into the top slot in the USMRR. He, in concert with Thomas Scott (another PRR biggie) re-gauged the L&N from Cincinnati to Nashville, ostensibly to expedite movement of troops. But I see it now. The real reason was to open at least one through route (and a Lines West route at that) right into the heart of Dixie. The whole Civil War must have been a cover for a covert attempt by PRR to dominate the Old South. Sly, crafty devils, those Philadelphians. One wonders, did the heirs of Nicolo Machiavelli have a seat on the board? (No, name ends with a vowel. Not a chance.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:18:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 6799 is a Trainmaster, not a baby Fellow SPF's, When I originally replied to the original question I followed the URL to a series of pictures, and the instructions in the original email said to go to the FS photo. Well, I did that, and found a photo of an H10-44. Hence I responded that was what he was looking at. Now I am seeing all this discussion about #6799. Where was that photo? As Rick Tipton knows, I am very familiar with the 6799. I built a model of it some years ago, that I still have, that ran on his layout for a while. Tell me where that photo is so that I can take a look. Sorry for the confusion about the H10-44. I guess I wasn't paying attention, and looked at the wrong thing. Wouldn't be the first time... Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:51:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] What was the Panhandle? (You had to ask) Rick, that's the short answer. Here's the full explanation. According to Burgess & Kennedy's Centennial History of the PRR Co., the spelling of this company was Pan Handle Railroad Co., in 1867 it was consolidated with the Steubenville & Indiana which ran from Steubenville to Newark Ohio on its own right-of-way and from Newark to Columbus on a right of way owned jointly with the Central Ohio railway and the Holiday's Cove Rail Road Co. that was organized specifically to build the PRR bridge across the Ohio between Steubenville and Wierton. W.Va. into the Panhandle Railway Co After Jay Gould and his Erie RR tried to take control of the Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central in 1869, the PRR Co. exercised its power as the CC&IC's primary creditor forced it into a 999-year lease and operating agreement. The Panhandle Railway Co. and the Pittsburgh and Steubenville were merged into the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati & St. Louis Railroad Co. In 1871, the Pennsylvania Co. was organized as wholly owned PRR subsidiary to operate the PRR lines west of Pittsburgh & Erie. Given the trade name "The Panhandle Route" but usually just referred to as "The Panhandle," The PC&StL was spun off as an independently operated subsidiary and assigned the leases and operating agreements to the CC&IC and the Litt.le Miami Railroad (its lease was only for 99 years). In 1872 the Panhandle took over the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis by operating agreement The CC&IC, poorly financed and engineered, was constantly in financial turmoil. After spending most of the 1870s in receivership, it was reorganized in the early 1880s into the St. Louis, Chicago & Pittsburgh which limped along until 1890 when it was merged into the PC&StL which got it's second C out of the deal, becoming the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad Co. But contemporary news reports still referred to the Panhandle in all references, never calling is by its formal name. PRR Lines West, The P. Co. and the Panhandle formally disappeared in the 1920 consolidation of operations. Tom V. Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio; on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part of the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for non-motorized intercity travel. In a message dated 4/7/00 7:42:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << << In a message dated 1/10/00 9:55:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << The Panhandle Railroad was a line of few miles (13)? that crossed West Virginia to reach Steubenville Ohio. This was an achievement partly because of the mountains in West Virginia's panhandle, but mostly because the territory had just ceased to be part of Virginia, a state that had long blocked Pennsy entry as a matter of policy.>> According to Railroad and State histories, the railroad had a great deal to do with the secession of West Virginia from Virginia - at the beginning of the Civil War. The PRR helped grease the skids with lots of $$$ -- starting a great tradition of graft in the new State. The Charter for the "Panhandle" was one of the first acts of the new West Va legislature Dick Ross >> And there's even a story -- just a rumor mind you -- that the Act of Congress admitting West Virginia to the Union was written by lawyers at Pennsy headquarters. They'd waited years to cross that little piece of Virginia, and the PRR wasted no time in organizing to cross the Panhandle into Ohio. Personally, I'm surprised there are no stories about the PRR influencing Union troops to "liberate" the right territory. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:01:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] What was the Panhandle? (You had to ask) Rick wrote, in part: -------------- "Personally, I'm surprised there are no stories about the PRR influencing Union troops to "liberate" the right territory." ------------------------------- Hmmm, I don't think any Pennsy-owned (at that time, c1861-65) trackage was in areas actually controlled by the Confederates. Suppose a guy could stretch a point and refer to short-lived incursions, such as the Gettysburg Campaign, but all of them involved bigger fish than Pennsy interests. I don't think Meade or McClelland were on Pennsy's payroll (especially as McClelland had competeing railroad interests in mind), and they probably would have gotten around to repelling rebel invasions in any event. And I've even heard rumors to the effect that the mountaineers of western Virginia had had long standing gripes with the aloof "aristocrats" that tradtionally ran the state. I imagine ole Bobby Lee found it particularly galling to be beaten by those "hicks" while exercising his first command. Interesting subject, though. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:18:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] A day at COLA tower Hi All, In a manner similar to Jerry's "A day at Harrisburg" I have started to compile "A Day at COLA". The first place I went was the arranged freight schedules from the Philadelphia Division, Employee Timetable #6, April 25, 1954. (I'm still looking for 1944 - anyone help me there?) and picked out the times for COLA. Its a busy place - 30 Westbounds and 35 Eastbounds, and this is only the arranged schedule - not the extras etc... Here they are - I would appreciate any help identifying trains as to origin and destination - THANKS! 1st Trick 00:10 EC-10 00:15 AP-19 00:45 LCL-2 Chicago (22nd St.) Harismus Cove 01:00 AEC-5 01:05 LCL-7 01:10 P-6 01:30 PG-10 01:30 AP-9 01:55 LCL-1 Harismus Cove Chicago (55th St.) 02:00 ET-1 02:15 P-5 (1ST) 02:15 NY-6 02:30 CG-8 03:25 LCL-3 Harismus Cove East St. Louis 03:55 B-10 04:00 P-5 (2ND) 04:00 BF-14 04:30 SW-8 05:00 P-17 05:30 B-9 05:45 WPB-2 06:00 P-29 06:30 EM-1 07:30 EM-2 07:45 TH-1 07:45 B-5 2nd Trick 08:00 P-9 08:10 P-19 09:00 NY-8 09:00 HPY-2 09:15 CFW-5 Camden (Pavonia) Fort Wayne 09:15 PG-11 09:45 PG-11 (2ND) 10:15 EC-5 10:15 P-8 11:10 AB-6 11:10 SP-8 11:59 PNE-2 12:30 BL-34 13:10 B-3 14:30 AG-12 14:45 TH-4 15:00 AC-10 Third Trick 17:15 TP-3 17:45 P-1 18:15 B-2 18:45 BF-7 19:00 NY-4 19:30 CG-2 20:00 PL-5 20:25 FW-8 20:30 P-14 20:30 P-84 20:40 HC-2 20:40 SP-2 21:15 JC-5 21:15 B-6 21:40 FJ-6 22:00 P-2 22:30 LCL-5 22:45 B-8 23:30 ET-2 23:30 P-7 23:30 P-85 23:50 EH-2 In addition, I have the following trains, but have no idea as to the time that they were scheduled through COLA F-80 York to Columbia F-81 Columbia to York YP-1 Philadelphia to York YP-2 York to Philadelphia 563 Lancaster to Frederick (RPO - service d/c as of 1948) 566 Frederick to Lancaster (RPO - service d/c as of 1948) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:17:56 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] What was the Panhandle? (You had to ask) LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > According to Burgess & Kennedy's Centennial History of the PRR Co., the > spelling of this company was Pan Handle Railroad Co. And that was the proper spelling of the nickname up until the PCC&StL ceased independent operations in 1921. All advertising and timetables spelled it as two words. So, why do we spell it (erroneously) as one word today? Probably because the PRR called it the "Panhandle Division," and because historians like Julius Grodinsky consolidated it into one word. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:28:52 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] What was the Panhandle? (You had to ask) RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Personally, I'm surprised there are no stories about the PRR influencing > Union troops to "liberate" the right territory. Remember that PRR VP Thomas A. Scott was Assistant Secretary of War for about a year, early in the war. Kammes'(?) excellent book detailing Scott's Civil War Career would be an eye-opener for those interested in the period. Also, Thomson and Scott were always politically adept, and involved financially with several important politicians including Simon Cameron. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:45:32 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Marker Light Lens Colors Frank, I would love to see such an article. The portion of your question that I can answer is about the removal of marker lights from steam engine pilot beams. The PRR in the 20s had marker lights on the smokebox and pilot for it's freight and passenger engines. During the 30s, markers were removed from the smokebox on freight power. During the very late 30s and early 40s, passenger engines began to have their smokebox markers removed, making them look like freight power in this respect. About 1942-43, PRR introduced a new marker light (it seems to have first appeared on the J1 class engines) and mounted them on the smokebox of all engines receiving them (freight, passenger, and switchers). The new markers were applied to engines as they were overhauled until the end of the steam era. There was considerable overlap; some engines retained their original candlepin markers on the pilot beams until scrapped in the late 40s. Hope this helps! Doug Park Varieties wrote: > Need some help from the List - I am apparently having a > "senior moment". I remember reading an interesting article on > the color of marker light lenses on Pennsy stream engines but can't > for the life of me remember where I saw it. It included a time line > on when the various lens colors changed plus timeframe in which > they eliminated the marker lights from steam engine pilot beams. > Anybody on the list recall what I am talking about and where I > can find the article?? Thanks. > > Frank Brua > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:53:07 -0400 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: Re: [PRR] A day at COLA tower Aye' Bruce! Cool post. Where is COLA? Jeff Knorek ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: RE: [PRR] Marker Light Lens Colors Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:03:44 -0400 Doug, Frank and all: As someone previously posted here and on PRRT&HS discussion web, the lights on the smoke box were classification signals; those on the beam were marker lamps. The PRR started to do away with classification signals on many of their lines in the 1920s as movement by timetable was being phased out even on branch lines. The rules 20 [green for 2nd section] & 21 [white for extra train] were eliminated by 1956 rule book; 1925 rule book has them. Was there a rule book in between that had those rule eliminated? I know different etts had a special instruction that rules 20 and 21 were not in force. Marker lamps, whether on beam or on smoke box, were only used if engine was running in reverse for a distance, such as a helper or running light. The marker lamps followed the same convention as rear passenger car or caboose. Anything else? I know more can be added. Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:15:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A day at COLA tower Jeff and List, COLA is in my hometown of Columbia, Pa., in the south-central part of the Commonwealth. The town is on the Susquehanna River, half way between Lancaster and York. In PRR days traffic to and from the Columbia & Port Deposit Branch (C&PD, the Port Road), Atglen & Susquehanna Branch (A&S, Low Grade), Columbia Branch, and Frederick Branch all went by COLA. See these Keystone articles: Autumn 1994: John Denney, Jr., "Columbia on the Pennsy" Winter 1994: my article, "The Atglen & Susquehanna: Lancaster County's Low Grade Spring 2000: Ivan E. Frantz, Jr., "The PRR's Frederick Branch" COLA still stands although it is bricked up. The tower holds the relays and communications equipment NS dispatchers use to control the tracks through the area. --Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] adhesives Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:28:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFA134.7B4D5460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list, Hope I don't get booed, but I am "building" an Athear Trainmaster into a = Class FS24m for my daughter. I am thinking of adding working "marker = lights" by drilling out the existing in running fiber-optics in from = behind.=20 The first question is, what adhesive is correct for this application. I = don't wish to damage the fiber-optic material, yet I want it held in = place. Second method/question, ( more time consuming than above) if I drill out = the plastic shell then cement a brass pipe in the hole (the pipe would = be modified by counter sinking on the exterior end) assuming I can = "work" the fiber-optic in, taking a small maker jewel (filing the back = side slightly so that it accepts the transmitted light) and affixing it = with white glue. Does this sound plausible? Would like some feedback on = both issues. Thanks in advance, Walt Prusick=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFA134.7B4D5460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear list,

Hope I don't get booed, but I am = "building" an=20 Athear Trainmaster into a Class FS24m for my daughter. I am thinking of = adding=20 working "marker lights" by drilling out the existing in running = fiber-optics in=20 from behind.

The first question is, what adhesive is = correct for=20 this application. I don't wish to damage the fiber-optic material, yet I = want it=20 held in place.

Second method/question, ( more time = consuming than=20 above) if I drill out the plastic shell then cement a brass pipe in the = hole=20 (the pipe would be modified by counter sinking on the exterior end) = assuming I=20 can "work" the fiber-optic in, taking a small = maker jewel =20 (filing the back side slightly so that it accepts the transmitted light) = and=20 affixing it with white glue. Does this sound plausible? Would like = some=20 feedback on both issues.

Thanks in advance,

Walt = Prusick

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFA134.7B4D5460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:02:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] adhesives On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Walt Prusick wrote: > Dear list, > Hope I don't get booed, but I am "building" an Athear Trainmaster into > a Class FS24m for my daughter. Are you correcting the "fan grates" and the louvers on the shell for the arrangement found on the phase the Pennsy had? If not yet and you wish to let me know and I'll see if I can find my notes. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Marker Light Lens Colors Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 07:14:48 -0700 Paul, Doug and all, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the PRR did away with class lights on freight locomotives in 1929, and on passenger locomotives in 1939. Photos from the era confirm this. If anybody has a copy of the rule book from the period, they can look it up to find an exact date. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Paul Stumpff To: PRR-talk (E-mail) Date: Friday, April 07, 2000 7:10 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Marker Light Lens Colors Doug, Frank and all: As someone previously posted here and on PRRT&HS discussion web, the lights on the smoke box were classification signals; those on the beam were marker lamps. The PRR started to do away with classification signals on many of their lines in the 1920s as movement by timetable was being phased out even on branch lines. The rules 20 [green for 2nd section] & 21 [white for extra train] were eliminated by 1956 rule book; 1925 rule book has them. Was there a rule book in between that had those rule eliminated? I know different etts had a special instruction that rules 20 and 21 were not in force. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:43:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] A day at COLA tower Bruce and List, >From "Names and Nicknames of Freight Trains Operated on the Railroads of the United States," Association of American Railroads, October 1948: CG-8: The Ace, Chicago-Greenville, NJ SW-8: The Premier, East St. Louis-Greenville, NJ FW-8: Man O'War, Chicago-Harismus Cove, NJ I don't have anything on 1944, but bracket it with 1942 and 1946 >From September 27, 1942 Form 41: Train/Freq/York, Columbia, Mountville, Lancaster 650/Daily/740a,808a,----,828a 654/Weekdays/1211p,1239p,-----,1259p 656/Weekdays/230p,258p,304pf,318p 668/Weekdays/447p,521p,----,545p 658/Sunday/457p,525p,----,545p 660/Weekdays/735p,803p,----,823p 664/Sunday/935p,1003p,-----,1023p Train/Freq/Lancaster, Mountville, Columbia, York 669/Weekdays/630a,642a,653a,732a 651/Weekdays/1007a,-----,1027a,1055a 653/Sunday/1102a,-----,1122a,1150a 655/Weekdays/138p,151pf,158p,225p 657/Daily/638p,----658p,725p 659/Weekdays/853p,----,913p,940p 665/Sunday/1057p,-----,1117p,1145p >From September 29, 1946 Form 41: Train/Freq/York, Columbia, Mountville, Lancaster 648/Weekdays/627a,655a,----,715a 650/Daily/840a,908a,----,928a 654/Weekdays/1205p,1233p,-----,1253p 656/Weekdays/217p,245p,251pf,305p 668/Weekdays/420p,500p,----,525p 658/Sunday/457p,525p,----,545p 660/Weekdays/735p,803p,----,823p 664/Sunday/930p,958p,-----,1018p Train/Freq/Lancaster, Mountville, Columbia, York 669/Weekdays/645a,657a,708a,749a 651/Weekdays/730a,-----,750a,818a 653/Weekdays/950a,-----,1010a,1038a 661/Sunday/1102a,-----,1122a,1150a 655/Weekdays/105p,118pf,125p,153p 657/Daily/638p,----658p,725p 659/Weekdays/900p,----,920p,943p 667/Sunday/1100p,-----,1120p,1148p a: a.m. p: p.m. f: flagstop --Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] OnLine Digital Special Collections...ICC RR Accident Reports From: Fred G Rea Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 16:42:35 EDT My son gave me this URL he got from the DT&I List. . The govt is digitizing accident reports starting in the 1800's. The DT&I folks were disappointed there weren't many for the DT&I, but it is full of PRR reports. After you get to this page click in the ICC Report line and you will see several volumes to browse. http://specialcollections.tasc.dot.gov/ Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:55:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: The Panhandle & the Civil War << Subject: Re: [PRR] What was the Panhandle? (You had to ask) From: "robert netzlof" Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:12:04 -0700 (PDT) >> >By Jove, I think we're on to something here. > >Who was the Secretary of War? Simon Cameron of the >Northern Central, that's who. Actually, Lincoln's Secretary of War was Edwin Staunton (sp?). And his hometown was???? Steubenville, Ohio So there could have been a connection right on LIncoln's cabinet. In fact there is a statue of Staunton in front of the courthouse in downtown Steubenville. And there was no Weirton, WV at the time. The settlement nearest the bridge would have been Holiday's Cove, WV. Weirton came along in the early years of the 20th century and was named for owner of the steel mills, E.T. Weir. Personally, I think it was all done by space aliens. ;^) George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:21:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The Panhandle & the Civil War In a message dated 4/8/00 6:01:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, GPandelios@aol.com writes: << Who was the Secretary of War? Simon Cameron of the >Northern Central, that's who. Actually, Lincoln's Secretary of War was Edwin Staunton >> Actually Lincoln had an original Sec of War - Cameron - and a replacement - Stanton. Stanton was by far the most important, but not the only. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:48:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The Panhandle & the Civil War In a message dated 4/8/00 10:36:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LeeRainey@aol.com writes: << Actually Lincoln had an original Sec of War - Cameron - and a replacement - Stanton. Stanton was by far the most important, but not the only. >> And Cameron, by most accounts, was the more corrupt, actually most corrupt member any Lincoln cabinet. Tom V. Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio; on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part of the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for non-motorized intercity travel. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:50:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The Panhandle & the Civil War In a message dated 4/8/00 7:48:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LINESWEST writes: << And Cameron, by most accounts, was the more corrupt, actually most corrupt member any Lincoln cabinet. >> Everyone has to excell at something. Lee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jason Myers" Subject: [PRR] Power of towers Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:11:03 -0500 Hello everyone here is a web page on Towers if anyone carres to take a look http://www.internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/Default.htm Jason Myers St Elmo Illinois CP 158 CSX STL line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 07:27:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Panhandle Invasion of Dixie? I'm gratified that we've been able to have so much fun with the idea that in 1863 the Pennsylvania Railroad Legal Department, and Lincoln's War Department, "created" the state of West Virginia for fun and profit (no offense, Mountaineers!). Now we may be heading off on another thread near and dear to my historian friends in Louisville and in the L&N Historical Society. One of my favorite statements (that gets me and Stu Thayer into trouble from time to time) is that the L&N interests and the PRR interests acted in very close concert time and again in creating bridges and sometimes whole divisions of railroad around the Cincinnati and Louisville area. Just a few samples: 1. Newport & Cincinnati rail bridge built/owned originally by Little Miami (PRR) and Louisville Cincinnati & Lexington (L&N). 2. Louisville Bridge Company (first "Panhandle" bridge at Louisville) funded by Jeffersonville RR (PRR) and L&N. Bridge engineer was Albert Fink, Chief Engineer of the L&NRR. 3. The LCL /L&N used the Panhandle passenger station in Cincinnati until Cincinnati Union Terminal opened in 1933. The L&N freight house in the middle of Pennsy's downtown Cincinnati facilities was still standing in the 1970's. 4. In Louisville, the PRR used L&N's Union Station (first at 9th and Broadway, then the "new" one at 10th and Broadway) from the time the Panhandle bridge crossed the Ohio River. Bob Netslof mentions there was a gauge change from Cincinnati to Nashville during the Civil War. This is the first I've heard of this. We all know that, generally, gauge was 4'9" or so north of the Ohio, and 5'0" south of it in this era. I think this will be a long and involved story, which I intend to consult my local experts on. In a message dated 4/7/2000 8:24:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << > Personally, I'm surprised there are no stories about > the PRR influencing > Union troops to "liberate" the right territory. > By Jove, I think we're on to something here. Who was the Secretary of War? Simon Cameron of the Northern Central, that's who. And let's not forget that Hermann Haupt, formerly of the PRR engineering department worked his way into the top slot in the USMRR. He, in concert with Thomas Scott (another PRR biggie) re-gauged the L&N from Cincinnati to Nashville, ostensibly to expedite movement of troops.>> << ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob >> I'd like to hear more about this standard-gauging of the route from Cincinnati to Nashville. For one thing, I didn't think the now-L&N from Newport (Cincinnati) to Louisville existed during the Civil War, opening about 1869. The Louisville-to-Nashville route was open before and during the Wah (at least on the days part of it wasn't in Confederate hands). I know the first Ohio River bridge letting an "Indianapolis" railroad into Louisville opened in 1871. OTOH, the stories of gauge changes and "gauge wars" around here seem to be many. And Tom Scott was capable of almost anything to project the power of the PRR. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:48:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Colossus Jerry & list - From time to time the question has been posed why don't manufacturers ask us? Well, here is your chance. The South wall of the main building (Wilmington station) has seven double windows at the foundation level. The grade is also uphill making each one of these windows a slightly different size. If we follow prototype the end user will have to put in this grade or display his model with a row of tapered windows. What do you think about making all the windows the same size? This would also require adding 2 steps leading up to the doorway. This would make the model more user friendly and the purist could very easily taper the windows with a little styrene and putty if he so desires. I'd really like to know what you guys think. Jerry, you might want to ask your customers. As these are final production masters, whatever we decide now, it's going to stay that way for a long time to come. Hope you'll help. Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] adhesives Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:43:42 -0400 Hi Walt; If you mean something like Elmer's glue when you say "white glue" , don't use it. Instead, use clear epoxy, or one of the cyanoacrylates (crazy glue) to adhere the jewel to the fiber-optic material. The surface pretreatments are, remove loose powdery materials (filing residues) and oily soils finger grease) before applying the adhesive. Follow the manufacturer's suggestions such as do not touch you eyes, avoid long term exposure, etc. Carl P. Izzo Industrial Paint Consultant PRRT&HS # 832 Subject: adhesives From: "Walt Prusick" Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:28:56 -0400 Dear list, Hope I don't get booed, but I am "building" an Athear Trainmaster into a = Class FS24m for my daughter. I am thinking of adding working "marker = lights" by drilling out the existing in running fiber-optics in from = behind.=20 The first question is, what adhesive is correct for this application. I = don't wish to damage the fiber-optic material, yet I want it held in = place. Second method/question, ( more time consuming than above) if I drill out = the plastic shell then cement a brass pipe in the hole (the pipe would = be modified by counter sinking on the exterior end) assuming I can = "work" the fiber-optic in, taking a small maker jewel (filing the back = side slightly so that it accepts the transmitted light) and affixing it = with white glue. Does this sound plausible? Would like some feedback on = both issues. Thanks in advance, Walt Prusick=20 @dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:57:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Gauges at the time of the Civil War In a message dated 4/9/00 4:43:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << We all know that, generally, gauge was 4'9" or so north of the Ohio, and 5'0" south of it in this era. I think this will be a long and involved story, which I intend to consult my local experts on. >> Actually, the story is much more involved than that. Gauges in the South (south of Potomac and Ohio) were 4-8.5, 5-0 and 5-6 before, during and after the war. There was 5-foot gauge all the way from Louisville to Nashville to Chattanooga to Atlanta and on to the Atlantic coast and to the Chattahoochie River. From Chattanooga the 5-foot gauge ran up to Bristol and on into Richmond, and also west to Memphis. Most of the other railroads in Northern Va and those in NC were 4-8.5. Alas for the South, the Montgomery [AL] & West Point [GA] was also 4-8.5, causing a bottleneck in the Deep South if you were going west from Atlanta. 5-6 was common on the few lines west of the Mississippi. During the war, 5-foot locomotives of the L&N were taken south and run in Georgia, locos from the 5-foot Western & Atlantic in Georgia were trapped in southwestern Virginia by Yankee incursions, 5-foot W&A equipment was run west into Mississippi in support of the Shiloh offensive and then trapped in Mississippi and laboriously brought home through Mobile, being ferried on "narrow gauge" [as described in period sources -- really 4-8.5] cars across the M&WP gap. But this gauge issue did not exist only in the South. In Ohio, the state's original legal gauge was 4-10 (hence the original gauge on the Iron Railroad.) At the time of the Civil War, other gauges in use were approx. 4-8.5, and 6 (there was a continuous Erie-affiliated route through Cincy to St. Louis). I believe there was some 5-3 in northern Ohio, but I don't have my notes handy. Note the 4-8.5 was nominal -- various roads had as much as .5" less and .75" more and still called it the same gauge. Many other places in the north had a cacophony of gauges as well -- 4-10 was the legal gauge in New Jersey, the Canadian affiliated lines in Maine used 5-3, etc. You entered Phila via a different gauge depending on whether you came from Penna, Md or Jersey, for example. Got done yesterday reading a couple items at the Western Reserve Historical Society Library re such matters -- one an account by a Detroit car builder of building cars for the US MIlitary Railroads for use in Tennessee during The War. They were built to 5 foot gauge and taken on 4-8.5 flats to Jeffersonville, where they were ferried across the river and onto the 5 foot gauge. Also another account of some roads trumpeting a new through freight service from Chicago to Penna -- using special cars with extra wide treads to accomodate the several versions of "standard" 4-8.5 or approximations along the way. Everyone always says the South lost The War because its railroads were all different gauges and did not connect and interchange freight. The joke is that the northern railroads had at least as many changes in gauge - so either they lost too or else this was not as big a deal as people say!!!! Watch for my forthcoming layout-design / railroad-you-can model series on the Western & Atlantic in The War -- tentatively accepted by the Craftsman. I'd love to be in touch with others who follow the railroads of the 1850s-1860s. Robert Lee Rainey (named for guess who?) PRRT&HS 6009 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:33:03 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Colossus Danya, I guess I'd say, "Make them the correct size". I wonder, though, if you could make inserts that could be inserted into openings so that the builder would have an option of building the model either way. John Ryan DWa9975062@aol.com wrote: > Jerry & list - From time to time the question has been posed why don't > manufacturers ask us? Well, here is your chance. The South wall of the main > building (Wilmington station) has seven double windows at the foundation > level. The grade is also uphill making each one of these windows a slightly > different size. If we follow prototype the end user will have to put in this > grade or display his model with a row of tapered windows. What do you think > about making all the windows the same size? This would also require adding 2 > steps leading up to the doorway. This would make the model more user friendly > and the purist could very easily taper the windows with a little styrene and > putty if he so desires. I'd really like to know what you guys think. Jerry, > you might want to ask your customers. As these are final production masters, > whatever we decide now, it's going to stay that way for a long time to come. > Hope you'll help. > Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:00:15 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] PRR Car sighted in Boston Area In case ssome one is keeping track of such Diner (?) Car number 4526 Stainless, two axle trucks, fluted sides. PRR Keystone on red decall. Dutch door on one side leads me to guess diner. 'sandwiched' between two esisiting restaurants (arggh, did NOT right them down. Steet adress of the restaruants 17 and 21 Nichols Ave, Atertown, MA.) Its _end_ _on_ to street, so not real obvious, in fact I've driven by before and not noticed it... It's on a stub of track, currently utterly disconnected from live rail. Car itself seems to be active, in use (hooked up to city water & sewer) & in good exterior shape. Eateries were closed, so did not confirm... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:07:10 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Bowser 130P75 tender steps Hello list, A while back Gary Mittner asked for rear tender steps to use on a K5 tender. I just received a Bowser E6s with the Bowser 13000 gallon tender (more or less a 130P75). It has separate steps at all four corners and they'd probably be a better choice than the Bowser T1 tender steps I originally recommended. The rear step part numbers are 70376 for the left rear step and 70377 for the right rear step. In case anyone needed them, the front step parts are 70374 for the left front step (might come in handy to modify the the Bachmann 110P70 to an ersatz 110P75; the coal space will be too short, but at least the firing deck will be high enough) and 70375 for the right front step. I'm using the E6s mostly for the chassis; I'm starting to rebuild a beautiful Alco Models E5s that has a fantastic boiler and tender, but an aged and recalcitrant chassis. I've just started the project, and I'll try to post more on it as I progress. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Colors of Pennsy stations & towers What color did the pennsy paint there wooden stations & towers? Is the tower in Strausburg,Pa painted in true Pennsy colors? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130P75 tender steps Doug, Thanks for the updated step part number. I will get that part soon. It is actually for a K4 tender. I am in the midst of modeling two different versions of the K4 to go along with my other fleet of K's. This time I am modeling a PFM Modernized K with the slatted pilot (several lasted this way well into the 50's and probably still had it when scrapped). The second version is the PFM Solid Drop Coupler Pilot with the orginal headlight/generator position version. A handful operated this way during the mid to late 40's. You could say this is the 1/2 modernized verson. These different features really make them stand out quite differently.. When finished these will put me up to 6 different versions of the K which include, 1. the 1927-28 version. 2. The post war version. 3. the 1936 Streamlined. 4 The 1940 Streamlined. 5 and 6 as mentioned above. In the future I wouldn't mind modeling a 1917 "as built" loco complete with oil burning headlight and extended piston rod guides. Yes the tender will be a big problem there, as usual! Oh well, I am young. Someday I will get to that one too....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Track pans at Wilmore,Pa =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0=A0=A0=A0?= Anyone know when the track pans were removed from Wilmore,Pa? What happend to the cut stone that lined them? Thax Mark. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] Colors of Pennsy stations & towers Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:32:27 -0400 First of all you will have to pick a time frame....The tower " J " is 100% correct for the time frame that it was painted for. The PRRT&HS sells paint cards for the correct colors of the buildings and railway cars, and some trim paint. Contact Ivan Frantz at the convention.....In the earlier years the colors were more yellowish, because of the natural pigments used at that time. Later (around the early 50's) some of the buildings received a coat of dark gray and light gray color. But true to the standard railroad of the world...not all structures received this color. Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 Northern Central chapter (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Lehman To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, April 09, 2000 7:36 PM Subject: [PRR] Colors of Pennsy stations & towers >What color did the pennsy paint there wooden stations & towers? Is the >tower in Strausburg,Pa painted in true Pennsy colors? > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: [PRR] Day at Cola Tower Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 20:28:47 PDT Thanks to Bruce for his April 7 posting "A Day at Cola Tower". This is the kind of information that those of us who are interested in operations really crave and appreciate. Personally, I'd love to see more of this type of postings or get directions on how to find operational information at other sites on the net. Certainly there are people who spent time trackside at places like Cresson, East Conway, Wooster Hill, Bradford, North Judson, etc during the 1950s and 1960s who recorded train symbols, times and consists. The vast majority of those people are probably not on-line so the question is, how do we find that information and get into some type of format where future generations of PRR fans can find and use it? Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:07:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Steel water tank color From: Michael Allen The tank at Bayhead was flat black. MEA On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:11:30 EDT SNY114@aol.com writes: > In every picture I've ever seen of the steel water tanks, both color > and b&w, > they appear to be all black. Probably flat black, since I would > think that > any gloss would quickly fade. > > > Jim Anderson > Thorndale, PA > sny114@aol.com > PRRT&HS 3995 > Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:24:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Street tractors. Was: More pictures... From: Michael Allen 1. It all depends on how you read the statement. The area in Baltimore [Fells Point et c.] where the tractors were operated includes Boston Street. 2. I've also heard of tractors being tried on the Philadelphia Belt but I've never seen a picture or talked to anybody who actually saw them. [speculation follows] If it is true they were almost certainly either PRR or B&O and sent to Philadelphia as an experiment. I have never heard of the reading using tractors. Remember that the Belt was owned in equal shares by the PRR, RDG, and B&O and operated by all three. If there was such an experiment it probably used a tractor borrowed from another location, which means PRR from Jersey City or Baltimore, or B&O from Fells Point. MEA On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:48:37 -0700 (PDT) robert netzlof writes: > --- Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > > John, list, > > > Also, the street tractors are from Baltimore (Fells > > Point), not Boston. > > > > I had gotten the idea that similar tractors were used > in Philadelphia also. Were there such? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:53:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf Survives!!! From: Jerry Britton No, this is not an April Fool's joke, though it would have been perfect. This is actually all true!!! Bill Lewis called me yesterday morning. (Bill is the president of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and has a massive PRR collection.) He reported something to me that I found hard to believe yet, coming from him, he saw it first hand and is not easily fooled. Later in the day he reported the same at the chapter meeting. Anyway... Bill was recently visiting an acquaintance in Burnham, Pa., near Lewistown. The main reason for the visit was to see this person's N scale PRR layout, which features over 3,000 cars and 120 locos!!! Anyway, also part of the visit was a tour of the steel plant at Burnham. After the tour, the group went to the local Burger King. During lunch, the host asked "Have you guys ever heard of the Denholm Coal Wharf". Duh!!! The host then took this unsuspecting group a few blocks to a salvage yard located just north of the steel mill. There, just some 50' beyond the fence, sits the Denholm Coal Wharf!!! Turns out this company was hired to dismantle the wharf. There are piles of the typical PRR brown stones from the piers, those big round handles that operated the chutes, an many more RECOGNIZABLE portions of the wharf!!! The scrap yard also contains portions of PRR locos, some complete 1880-era tank cars back in the weeds, and more! I will be getting the full name of the salvage company and Bill and I will be returning to take photos. Unbelievable!!! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:05:13 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Recordings Hi All, I am working with SoundTraxx to custom produce a DCC-Sound decoder for the GG-1 and other electrics (once produced, these decoders will be available to anyone). I am looking for clear recordings of GG-1s. In particular, I will need recordings of the bell, horn and blowers, without extraneous sound. The most promising recordings would most likely be those made on modern recording equipment in the last few years of operation. These recordings must be your property or uncopywrited, and you must be willing to allow them to be distributed as part of the SoundTraxx line of sound systems. Can you help? (BTW, neither you nor I will receive any compensation other than having an appropriate sound decoder for the GG-1 available!) Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:38:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] Colors of Pennsy Towers: Buff and Brown Somewhere along the way one of the paiunt makers got the idea that PRR "Buff" was a chrome yellow, at one time it may have been. BUT for the time period most of us model (1940 to 1959) the color was a sand beige or Desert Tan. But, as the previous poster noted, the exceptions proved the rule on the "Standard Railroad of the World" Well into the Conrail era Jacks Tower at Mount Union Pa kept its "Buff" paint on the north - sheer drop to the river - side long after the other three sides had recieved two or more "updated" paint jobs PC green and, later the Conrail two tone grey. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:40:32 -0500 From: tracker Subject: Re: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf Survives!!! Photos..hell. someone needs to be attempting to save at least the tank cars Jerry Britton wrote: > No, this is not an April Fool's joke, though it would have been perfect. > This is actually all true!!! > > Bill Lewis called me yesterday morning. (Bill is the president of the > Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and has a massive PRR collection.) > He reported something to me that I found hard to believe yet, coming from > him, he saw it first hand and is not easily fooled. Later in the day he > reported the same at the chapter meeting. Anyway... > > Bill was recently visiting an acquaintance in Burnham, Pa., near Lewistown. > The main reason for the visit was to see this person's N scale PRR layout, > which features over 3,000 cars and 120 locos!!! Anyway, also part of the > visit was a tour of the steel plant at Burnham. After the tour, the group > went to the local Burger King. During lunch, the host asked "Have you guys > ever heard of the Denholm Coal Wharf". Duh!!! > > The host then took this unsuspecting group a few blocks to a salvage yard > located just north of the steel mill. There, just some 50' beyond the fence, > sits the Denholm Coal Wharf!!! > > Turns out this company was hired to dismantle the wharf. There are piles of > the typical PRR brown stones from the piers, those big round handles that > operated the chutes, an many more RECOGNIZABLE portions of the wharf!!! > > The scrap yard also contains portions of PRR locos, some complete 1880-era > tank cars back in the weeds, and more! > > I will be getting the full name of the salvage company and Bill and I will > be returning to take photos. Unbelievable!!! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) > http://www.brasstrains.net > For Dealers and Manufacturers > http://www.modelrailroadnews.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:46:33 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] A day at COLA tower Fred said: >I don't have anything on 1944, but bracket it with 1942 and 1946 >>From Form 41: BTW, dumb question, but what's a "Form 41"? As I count it, there seem to be 5 trains on weekdays each way on September 27, 1942 Lancaster York 630a(669) 732a 828a 740a(650) 1007a(651) 1055a 1259p 1211p(654) 138p(655) 225p 318p 230p(656) 638p(657) 725p 545p 447p(668) 823p 735p(660) 853p(659) 940p And, by September 29, 1946 the numbers and times of some trains had changed, and there were now 6 each way! Lancaster York 715a 627a(648) 645a(669) 749a 730a(651) 818a 928a 840a(650) 950a,(653) 1038a 1253p 1205p(654) 105p(655) 153p 305p 217p(656) 525p 420p(668) 638p(657) 725p 823p 735p(660) 900p,(659) 943p Would trains numbered in the same series (ie 650, 651, etc) be turn arond moves of the same equipment? It looks as if 668/669 might actually be the Frederick train, but I can't tell from this information (the number given in the Keystoner was 563/566) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:21:37 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130P75 tender steps Gary and the list, Off the top of my head, K4s engines 5475 and 5497 were retired at the end of 1957 (5475 and 5497 were dropped in April 1958) with the slatted pilot. Both had 110P75a tenders when retired. K4s 5497, as one of the last five K4s engines built, had the cast engine bed. I believe that only Bowser's kit models the cast bed (or at least I've never seen any brass K4s engines model the cast bed). On the Bowser kits I've done so far, I've simply left off the part (Bowser #864) because the engines I've modelled so far have had the bolted frames. You could probably add strips of styrene to represent the cast frame near the cylinders and come up with a similar effect if you wanted to model K4s engines 5495-5499. Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > Doug, > > Thanks for the updated step part number. I will get that part soon. > It is actually for a K4 tender. > I am in the midst of modeling two different versions of the K4 > to go along with my other fleet of K's. This time I am modeling a PFM > Modernized K with the slatted pilot (several lasted this way well into > the 50's and probably still had it when scrapped). The second version is > the PFM Solid Drop Coupler Pilot with the orginal headlight/generator > position version. A handful operated this way during the mid to late > 40's. You could say this is the 1/2 modernized verson. These different > features really make them stand out quite differently.. When finished > these will put me up to 6 different versions of the K which include, > 1. the 1927-28 version. 2. The post war version. 3. the 1936 > Streamlined. 4 The 1940 Streamlined. 5 and 6 as mentioned above. In the > future I wouldn't mind modeling a 1917 "as built" loco complete with oil > burning headlight and extended piston rod guides. Yes the tender will be > a big problem there, as usual! Oh well, I am young. Someday I will get > to that one too....Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130P75 tender steps Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:57:02 -0700 Doug, The K4s that was done by Red Ball in the late 1960's was of a cast bed locomotive...and it was modeled after 5497 (I got one in my closet.) The Bowser locomotive can be easily done up as one of the earlier K4s's by omitting the cast part that simulates the frame rails and adding the Bowser brass boiler stays. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: Gary Mittner ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, April 10, 2000 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130P75 tender steps >I believe that only Bowser's kit models the cast bed (or at least I've never >seen any brass K4s engines model the cast bed). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Ligonier Valley RR Hello, Anyone know if the Pennsy used the LVRR line after the LVRR went out of business? What happened to the equipment? dose any of the equipment still exist? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:50:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Denholm Coal Wharf Survives!!! Hi All. Probabaly Joe Kovalchick, as in owner of EBTRR. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:06:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Wlimington walls To all of you who responded to my post this past weekend. Thank you, your in put is important. For those of you who are interested I have put three more wall on the web site on the web specials page. you can see them at Thanks again, Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: [PRR] St Louis Mail Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:50:27 PDT Can anyone help identify the origin/destinations of trains No. 13 and No.14? I believe these trains were the St. Louis Mail trains between St Louis and New York. Did they operate concurrenlty with No. 10/No 11 or were they replaced those trains? Thanks for the help, Steve ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:04:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Laura E Lombardi Subject: [PRR] searching for RR stories I am a student photographer at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, PA. At the end of April, I will be having an art exhibition of my railroad photographs. I have spent a lot of time photographing the amazing sights around the tracks of Pittsburgh. In addition to my photographs, I wish to display statements I have collected from people regarding railroads. These written contributions could include short essays, poems, a favorite quote about railroads, a train ride memory, stories about working on the railroad or anything else you can think of. Just to get you started here are some things you could write about: --When was your first train ride? When was the last time you rode a train? --Did you or someone you know work on the railroad? --Do you have an interest in model railroading? --What do you remember about railroads from when you were a child? --How have railroads changed throughout your lifetime? --How does the experience of traveling by train differ from other means of traveling? --What do you know about the history of the railroad industry in Pittsburgh or elsewhere? The written statements will be included in a scrapbook in the gallery and some excerpts will be written on the walls alongside the photographs. If you wish to participate please send your contribution to this address: Laura Lombardi P.O. Box 8230 Pittsburgh, PA 15217 Or email your contribution to this address: lel@andrew.cmu.edu And of course, you are welcome to attend the show~ April 26~30 The Frame Gallery 5200 Forbes Ave Pittsburgh, PA Opening: April 28, 7-9 PM ****Thanks in advance for your participation!**** Laura Lombardi All contributions to this project become the property of Laura Lombardi and will not be returned. By participating you give permission for your words to be used in this project and any other future projects ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:40:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] St Louis Mail In a message dated 04/10/2000 10:02:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sthipes@hotmail.com writes: << Can anyone help identify the origin/destinations of trains No. 13 and No.14? I believe these trains were the St. Louis Mail trains between St Louis and New York. Did they operate concurrenlty with No. 10/No 11 or were they replaced those trains? >> The Sept. 26, 1948 ETT's for the Panhandle Division and Pittsburgh Division show the following No 11 arriving Pittsburgh from Altoona at 8:48 AM daily NO. 11 departing Pittsburgh west bound at 9:10 AM daily No 13 arriving Pittsburgh from Altoona at 1:55 PM daily No. 13 departing Pittsburgh westbound at 2:40 PM daily. No. 14 departing Pittsburgh eastbound at 3:40 AM daily No 10 is not shown in either ETT No 10 does not appear in the 1951 consist of trains either. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:48:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A day at COLA tower Bruce and List: Form 41 is the public timetable form for Philadelphia-Harrisburg-Roanoke. Form 1 was the System timetable. Form 36 was for New York-Philadelphia and Norfolk. Form 39 was Baltimore-Harrisburg, etc. Form 41 does not list Frederick, but Form 39 does. April 28, 1946 Form 39 confirms 668/669 as the Frederick train, discontinued August 14, 1948. I agree the others were turn-around trains. At Lancaster the self-propelled cars would lay over on a stub track that was in an indentation in the west end of the westbound platform. That indentation is still there. --Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:22:56 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Ligonier Valley RR --- Mark Lehman wrote: > Hello, Anyone know if the Pennsy used the LVRR line > after the LVRR went > out of business? In general, they did not. The state highway department wanted to add two lanes to US30. Between Kingston and Long Bridge, they built the westbound lanes on the Liggie Valley right of way. >From east of Idlewild Park to Ligonier, they used the RoW for the eastbound lanes. As I recall, the LV lasted a year or so longer than it might have due to a need to haul stone from a quarry near Long Bridge for use in constructing the Conemaugh flood control dam. Every day, the LV would fetch 20 or so H-21's loaded with stone down to Latrobe, take the same number of empties back to the quarry. Once that ended, the railroad shut down right quickly. That was, I believe, in 1953. PRR operated about a mile and a half of the Latrobe end as a branch to reach several industries in the south end of Latrobe and a couple of businesses at the wye. The feed mill/farm supply moved out of town, the lumber yard burned down. Vulcan Mold and Iron went out of business. PRR in the late 50's built a new freight station on the site vacated by the feed mill. As of today, the track is in place, but it has been a couple of years or more since I have seen any train moving on it other than in the immediate vicinity of the freight station. The very last thing I saw on that line was well over a year ago. Conrail moved a TTX 8-axle flat loaded with a part for a big press to the Timken plant (ex-Latrobe Steel, exx-Latrobe Electric Steel). I only saw the flat sitting in the plant, marvelled that it had made it over the less-than-perfect track. > What happened to the equipment? > dose any of the > equipment still exist? So far as I know, the only equipment left is a privately owned hand car, which from time to time gets hauled into Latrobe on a trailer and operated along the remaining track by its owner and his buddies. The passenger station in Ligonier is now the district office of the Pa Game Comission (or is the office for the state forester?) The enginehouse became a Catholic Church. The waiting room/shelter at Millbank, just east of Idlewild was still standing a few years ago, but I think expansion at the park took it out. All told, in the nearly 50 years since the Liggy Valley folded, much of the traces of it have become obliterated. You have to know just where to look, and then you often don't see. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:03:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Adhesive Recommendation From: Jerry Britton Looking for an adhesive recommendation. Have the new Railworks Clearance Car. It came with eight lenses for its spotlights, made by MV. Need to attach these to the brass car. Brad Bower recommended "SA", which I am as yet not familiar with. Tried Ambroid Proweld. They held initially, but dropped right off once dry. Any other comments from the field? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:44:07 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Adhesive Recommendation Jerry, Try Elmers "StixAll". Not "GlueAll", the famous white wood glue. StixAll is an acetic acid based - it smells like vinegar! It is clear and slow setting glue. It will bond anything and is also very useful when a very slow setting glue is needed. It is waterproof and flexible when dry. Its one downside is that it can not be painted. It comes in a tube and can be found in most stationery stores. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > Looking for an adhesive recommendation. > > Have the new Railworks Clearance Car. It came with eight lenses for its > spotlights, made by MV. Need to attach these to the brass car. > > Brad Bower recommended "SA", which I am as yet not familiar with. Tried > Ambroid Proweld. They held initially, but dropped right off once dry. > > Any other comments from the field? > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) > http://www.brasstrains.net > For Dealers and Manufacturers > http://www.modelrailroadnews.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jason Myers" Subject: [PRR] Webpage up dated Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:52:18 -0500 Hi all I've updated my page.I'm also uploading and scanning more pics for the page and should have them all up by the end of the week. http://jasonstrainpics.homestead.com/index.html Jason Myers St Elmo Illinois CP 158 CSX STL line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Adhesive Recommendation Jerry, I use Kristal Klear made by Micro-Scale for setting in all my MV lenses. It is a water based adhesive that drys "Crystal Clear". Perfect for MV lenes. Use a toothpick to place a dab in the marker light where the lens is to set. It is usually used for making windows but is a great glue type substance. Cleans up easily if any excess gets anywhere. Try it, you'll like it!....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Re:Long Hood Forward? Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:22:49 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BFA3C1.6A5A9480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff and the list: I am late getting into this thread, but happiness is = a new hard drive. As near as we can figure all the GP9's and all but two GP7's were = arranged for long hood forward. The two GP7's were 8551 and 8552, which = were equipped with dual controls for either direction, also steam = generator, train phone, torpedo tubes and no dynamic brakes, purchased = for use on the Elmira Branch. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BFA3C1.6A5A9480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff and the list: I am late = getting into=20 this thread, but happiness is a new hard drive.

As near as we can figure all the GP9's = and all but=20 two GP7's were arranged for long hood forward. The two GP7's were = 8551 and=20 8552, which were equipped with dual controls for either direction, also = steam=20 generator, train phone, torpedo tubes and no dynamic brakes, purchased = for use=20 on the Elmira Branch.

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BFA3C1.6A5A9480-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:32:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Long Hood Forward? From: Jerry Britton On 4/11/00 3:22 PM, Steve Hoxie (steveh@dotstar.net) wrote: > Jeff and the list: I am late getting into this thread, but happiness is a new > hard drive. > Perhaps late... > As near as we can figure all the GP9's and all but two GP7's were arranged for > long hood forward. The two GP7's were 8551 and 8552, which were equipped with > dual controls for either direction, also steam generator, train phone, torpedo > tubes and no dynamic brakes, purchased for use on the Elmira Branch. > ...but with unique and excellent information! Guess there is a use for the "torpedo tube" version that LL P2K did, huh? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:13:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Long Hood Forward? In a message dated 4/11/00 2:32:39 PM Central Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << As near as we can figure all the GP9's and all but two GP7's were arranged for long hood forward. The two GP7's were 8551 and 8552, which were equipped with dual controls for either direction, also steam generator, train phone, torpedo tubes and no dynamic brakes, purchased for use on the Elmira Branch. >> 8553 is usually lumped with that group and was used on the Chicago Valpo dummies (transfer freights on the weekends or offhours). It is pictured quite often short end forward, so I always suspected it had dual controls. There might be others, since there were more than one used in the service in Chicago--sure that 8551 or 8552 didn't migrate Westward? My current project is a torpedo boat GP7. Modifiying an Atlas GP7 sans dynamic brakes with the Details West kit for the torpedos. I don't know if the underbody tanks need to be modified or if I am up to that. If I get the torpedos and antennas, that will get the major appearance items. BTW, how many of you guys with Proto2000 Geeps have turned your engineer and fireman around? :-) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:24:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Long Hood Forward? In a message dated 4/11/00 4:21:30 PM Central Daylight Time, I wrote: << 8553 is usually lumped with that group and was used on the Chicago Valpo dummies (transfer freights on the weekends or offhours). >> I realize I might have confused newcomers with the above, who might have concluded I was defining dummies as transfer freights. To clarify, the dummies were commuter trains. When they weren't being used in that service (such as on Sundays) , the GP7's without dynamic brakes and with the torpedo air tanks on the roof were used on transfer freights. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Long Hood Forward? Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:47:46 -0500 Bob Zoeller wrote: > > 8553 is usually lumped with that group and was used on the Chicago Valpo > dummies (transfer freights on the weekends or offhours). It is pictured quite > often short end forward, so I always suspected it had dual controls. There > might be others, since there were more than one used in the service in > Chicago--sure that 8551 or 8552 didn't migrate Westward? > 8553 may have had dual controls, but the info I have does not make it clear. All three were delivered in 1953. That is the trouble with GP7's--PRR had so many different configurations. I do not know if 8551 and 8552 migrated west--for some of us time stops in 1954. > > My current project is a torpedo boat GP7. Modifiying an Atlas GP7 sans > dynamic brakes with the Details West kit for the torpedos. I don't know if > the underbody tanks need to be modified or if I am up to that. If I get the > torpedos and antennas, that will get the major appearance items. > The main difficulty with using an Atlas is having to revise the hard cast metal footboards to the later style which had "pockets" to retain the loose ends of the MU hoses. 8797 to 8806 would be appropriate, but these did not have steam generators. P2K GP7's have to have these changed also, but the plastic is a lot easier to slice off to make room for Detail Associates 2208. The underbody does need modification to make room for the train control boxes. The real trick on any torpedo tube GP7 is routing the train phone antenna---I have yet to find a photo that show this installation. > > BTW, how many of you guys with Proto2000 Geeps have turned your engineer and > fireman around? :-) > Of course! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:02:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Passenger Shark question Okay guys, I'm looking at Pat Lawless' models. I know that the Erie Builts were purchased and originally run in ABA lashups. What was the most common lashup for the BP20s -- AB or ABA?? Which cal scale antenna kit or kits do you buy for Erie Bults, for the BP20s? I'm modeling early summer 1949. The original livery of the Erie built was LE and single stripe with small Pennsylvania. The BP20s are also DGLE but which lettering scheme.? TIA Tom V. Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio; on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part of the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for non-motorized intercity travel. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:12:51 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question :) LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the > Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part > of the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for > non-motorized intercity travel. Also Known As --- "The Standard BikePath of The World" <(crawling back into my corner)> -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:51:42 -0500 Tom--For BP20 antennas I have used the Shark set, 409, but obviously you will need more than one. For 1949, they should be painted DGLE with bronze gold and five stripes. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:44:28 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question Tom, In addition to Steve's comments, remember that as originally delivered the BP20s did not have the whisker stripes all the way down the nose. Rather they stopped at the circle keystone behind the cab. The nose whiskers were added later; but I don't know if that was concurrent with their being painted Tuscan or while they were still DGLE. Anyone? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > Okay guys, > I'm looking at Pat Lawless' models. I know that the Erie Builts were > purchased and originally run in ABA lashups. What was the most common lashup > for the BP20s -- AB or ABA?? > Which cal scale antenna kit or kits do you buy for Erie Bults, for the > BP20s? > I'm modeling early summer 1949. The original livery of the Erie built was > LE and single stripe with small Pennsylvania. The BP20s are also DGLE but > which lettering scheme.? > TIA > Tom V. > > Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio; > on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the > Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part > of the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for > non-motorized intercity travel. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:08:35 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question >Tom, > >In addition to Steve's comments, remember that as originally delivered >the BP20s did not have the whisker stripes all the way down the nose. >Rather they stopped at the circle keystone behind the cab. The nose >whiskers were added later; but I don't know if that was concurrent with >their being painted Tuscan or while they were still DGLE. Anyone? Yes, the BP-20 did sport the "classic" DGLE 5 stripe, gold "whiskers" scheme for a time. Also, photos from Harrisburg show AB, AA and ABA arrangements, so Tom, it depends on your time/budget! (that ABA lashup is a LOT of locomotive too...how BIG is your layout?) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:10:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question From: Jerry Britton On 4/12/00 8:44 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > In addition to Steve's comments, remember that as originally delivered > the BP20s did not have the whisker stripes all the way down the nose. > Rather they stopped at the circle keystone behind the cab. The nose > whiskers were added later; but I don't know if that was concurrent with > their being painted Tuscan or while they were still DGLE. Anyone? > The whiskers did make it onto at least some DGLE units. I've seen photos. Just don't recall where!!! A lot of information is available from my site. There's a page called "Painting & Lettering Guide for Passenger Sharks" at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/bg_bp20/index.html --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:12:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question In a message dated 4/12/00 7:57:07 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << The nose whiskers were added later; but I don't know if that was concurrent with their being painted Tuscan or while they were still DGLE. Anyone? >> Not concurrent. As best I can tell, the whiskers in gold leaf were added to the DGLE scheme on drawing dated 9-18-51. The scheme was changed to tuscan red enamel and synthetic buff stripes and lettering 8-11-52, about a year later. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:20:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question From: Jerry Britton On 4/12/00 9:08 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Also, photos from Harrisburg show AB, AA and ABA arrangements, so Tom, it > depends on your time/budget! (that ABA lashup is a LOT of locomotive > too...how BIG is your layout?) > Also keep in mind that these were LONG engines. You'll need a decent minimum radius -- suggest 30" minimum! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:33:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] Altoona Rail Fest Hi All, I have been trying to get free for the Rail Fest for several years and can make it this year. I understand the dates are Oct 7 & 8? Can someone tell me how to register and what is available? Is it written up on any web page? It will be great to meet some of you there. Jerry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:49:42 -0400 There are pictures showing them in DGLE with the striping all the way to the nose. One excellent shot is in PDY2 on p.79 and the caption has a good explanation of the change. Makes sense to me. Rick S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:51:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Rail Fest From: Jerry Britton On 4/12/00 10:33 AM, ARRJERRY@aol.com (ARRJERRY@aol.com) wrote: > I have been trying to get free for the Rail Fest for several years and can > make it this year. I understand the dates are Oct 7 & 8? Can someone tell me > how to register and what is available? Is it written up on any web page? It > will be great to meet some of you there. Watch: http://www.railroadcity.com/railroad/Jun-OctSpecEv.htm This is the listing of events posted by the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. It is up-to-date for 2000, but only includes minimal information as of yet for RailFest. They typically -- by June-July -- post an e-mail address that you can ask to be added to their registration mailing list. I've only done this once and I get the packet every year. The actual registration packets are usually mailed in early August. If you want to ride one of the excursions, respond IMMEDIATELY. They ALWAYS sell out well in advance. The shop tour, usually offered every year, is worthwhile. However, very little new stuff is to be seen -- except for what's in the paint shop -- so repeating the tour year to year is usually not worthwhile. The museum is first rate. Excellent exhibits, though its prototype collection pales in comparison to Strassburg (quantity and quality). --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question Tom, If this will help you out a little concerning the BP-20 Paint scheme, I have listed on my website a Photo of an A and a B Unit. These are not the Miracle Casting Sharks but rather the Oriental Brass Imports. I decided to paint these in the 1950 era paint and lettering. I preferred the full gold stripping over the other style. I also debated long and hard on which of the colors I wanted to do. DGLE or Tuscan. Well, you can see what I ended up with. After they were done I purchased a second set of A-B Oriental BP-20's. These will be finished with the Tuscan and single Broad stripe as seen on the Long Branch during the mid 1950's. I did build and paint the Miracle Castings Sharks for someone once and I did those in the Tuscan and 5 Stripe version. But I still prefer the DGLE version the best. To view my Sharks see the first website listed below. It is on page 2 near the top.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:44:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question In a message dated 4/12/00 8:21:36 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Also, photos from Harrisburg show AB, AA and ABA arrangements, so Tom, it depends on your time/budget! (that ABA lashup is a LOT of locomotive too...how BIG is your layout?) >> My O-gauge friend who asked the question about the color of steel water tanks (BTW, confirmed black in the PRR MOW plan book) has an ABBA lashup! Got an invite to see them--can't wait! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:53:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question From: Jerry Britton On 4/12/00 11:44 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > In a message dated 4/12/00 8:21:36 AM Central Daylight Time, > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > << Also, photos from Harrisburg show AB, AA and ABA arrangements, so Tom, it > depends on your time/budget! (that ABA lashup is a LOT of locomotive > too...how BIG is your layout?) >> > > My O-gauge friend who asked the question about the color of steel water tanks > (BTW, confirmed black in the PRR MOW plan book) has an ABBA lashup! Got an > invite to see them--can't wait! > As far as I am aware, and based on the number of each type of units purchased, the PRR never ran BP20 passenger sharks as ABBA lashups. They did, however, run the freight sharks as ABBA's. The freight shark is significantly shorter than the passenger version. In fact, four freight sharks and three passenger sharks may be about the same length!!! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:01:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Modeling Observation From: Jerry Britton Of all the layouts that have been discussed on this list over the years -- a few Horseshoe Curves, a couple of Philadelphia's, two or three Harrisburg's, a few Elmira Branches, etc. -- I'm surprised that nobody is modeling Pittsburgh! You'd think that with the convergence of Lines West, a large city passenger station, all of that freight with the steel industry, etc. Yet nobody has modeled it? Reminder, if you've got a PRR layout, give it a web page...free hosting on the "Keystone Crossings" layouts page http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/ Or, if you've already got a dedicated layout page, let me link to it. Send me the URL. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:52:03 -0400 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] Weaver Just saw that Weaver is offering a diecast O scale C-1 0-8-0. The price is not too bad at $429 without sound. Take a look at their web. http://www.weavermodels.com/ Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation Date: Wed, 12 Apr 100 14:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Jerry Britton scribit: > > Of all the layouts that have been discussed on this list over the years -- a > few Horseshoe Curves, a couple of Philadelphia's, two or three Harrisburg's, > a few Elmira Branches, etc. -- I'm surprised that nobody is modeling > Pittsburgh! > > You'd think that with the convergence of Lines West, a large city passenger > station, all of that freight with the steel industry, etc. Yet nobody has > modeled it? Rivers. Bridges. Tunnel. 2 freight yards. 3 main lines. Bypasses. The Conway -- Pitcairn transfer traffic alone could be the theme for an entire layout. Equally interesting is the local traffic both downtown and, as Jerry mentions, elsewhere in the mills area. Plus you get to model P&LE, B&LE, URR, B&O, and even, thanks to P&LE, some old beat-up NYC equipment. :-) Jerry, perhaps, like the NEC, it's one of those things that's just a bit too daunting? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:16:26 -0500 (CDT) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation >Jerry Britton scribit: >> >> Of all the layouts that have been discussed on this list over the years -- a >> few Horseshoe Curves, a couple of Philadelphia's, two or three Harrisburg's, >> a few Elmira Branches, etc. -- I'm surprised that nobody is modeling >> Pittsburgh! >> >> You'd think that with the convergence of Lines West, a large city passenger >> station, all of that freight with the steel industry, etc. Yet nobody has >> modeled it? > > >Rivers. Bridges. Tunnel. 2 freight yards. 3 main lines. Bypasses. > >The Conway -- Pitcairn transfer traffic alone could be the theme for an >entire layout. Equally interesting is the local traffic both downtown and, >as Jerry mentions, elsewhere in the mills area. Plus you get to model >P&LE, B&LE, URR, B&O, and even, thanks to P&LE, some old beat-up NYC >equipment. :-) > Don't forget the Montour. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Rail Fest Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:22:21 -0400 Listers, The Railfest this year is going to be extremely crowded since 3 NMRA Regions are having their conventions in conjunction with Railfest. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:24:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation > Of all the layouts that have been discussed on this list over the years -- a > few Horseshoe Curves, a couple of Philadelphia's, two or three Harrisburg's, > a few Elmira Branches, etc. -- I'm surprised that nobody is modeling > Pittsburgh! > > You'd think that with the convergence of Lines West, a large city passenger > station, all of that freight with the steel industry, etc. Yet nobody has > modeled it? So hard, where do you come up with credible bridges to use? I'd like to, and I'm still toying with the idea. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:29:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Rail Fest From: Jerry Britton On 4/12/00 3:22 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > The Railfest this year is going to be extremely crowded since 3 NMRA Regions > are having their conventions in conjunction with Railfest. > Don't know if I'll go or not. I've been there twice and there's really no attraction once you've done the shop tour, the museum, and the excursion (although they did open the car shop last year). HOWEVER, it is a unique time to have a bit of a "tailgate party" behind the Station Mall and watch trains all day. Last time I went -- two years ago -- it drizzled all day. But that didn't stop us from setting up a few folding chairs and propping out feet up on the cooler! (We even had a portable TV to watch our favorite football team -- Go Lions!) Sure, we could watch trackside anytime, but it is kind of neat when there are so many people there to interact with! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:56:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation > Rivers. Bridges. Tunnel. 2 freight yards. 3 main lines. Bypasses. Several tunnels. Port Perry Corliss the Panhandle tunnel under Grant's Hill... and depending on how far out of town you get, and how long ago, tunnels on the Conemaugh, on the main line on either side of Greensburg, etc, etc.... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation Lets not forget the famous inclines!. And speaking of the many Bridges in Pittsburgh, you should see the model of the Famous Smithfield Street Bridge (Street Car and auto) located at the Model Railroad Club in Gibsonia, Pa. I don't know all the details but I believe it is built to scale dimensions. Oh yeah, I think they have the Wabash Bridge as well. Both look impressive! ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:57:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Rail Fest Information on Railfest can be found at: Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Home Page and/or Horseshoe Curve Chapter, NRHS . Dave Seidel Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation- Pittsburgh Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:18:11 -0500 Not wanting to bite off more than I can chew, I have chosen to model only the Monongahela area of Pittsburgh, with its abundance of heavy industry and interesting traffic mix. On the layout I have interchange operations with the P&LE and the B&O. Yes, it would be nice to have Pitcairn or Conway, the Panhandle, the depot and perhaps the produce terminal. But my 22' x 33' space is pretty full recreating the southwestern side of town. As Clint Eastwood would say, "you got to know your limitations". Regards, Greg Johnson Modeling 1967 Pittsburgh in 2000 Houston, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" Of all the layouts that have been discussed on this list over the years -- a > few Horseshoe Curves, a couple of Philadelphia's, two or three Harrisburg's, > a few Elmira Branches, etc. -- I'm surprised that nobody is modeling > Pittsburgh! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Pittsburgh Club Was: [PRR] Modeling Observation Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:35:39 -0400 Yes, Gary, and there is some representation of downtown Pittsburgh as well as areas surrounding Pittsburgh on that layout as well. They have changed their name to "Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum," but it's still the model railroad club and a fantastic layout that portrays lines including the Western Maryland and the Salisbury Viaduct. One really has to SEE this layout, although opportunites are minimal save for the Christmas Season open house. Lets not forget the famous inclines!. And speaking of the many Bridges in Pittsburgh, you should see the model of the Famous Smithfield Street Bridge (Street Car and auto) located at the Model Railroad Club in Gibsonia, Pa. I don't know all the details but I believe it is built to scale dimensions. Oh yeah, I think they have the Wabash Bridge as well. Both look impressive! ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:44:50 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Shark question Tom and the list, We had a few posts on this a couple weeks back. Cal Scale (Bowser) does not market an antenna set for Erie Built locomotives. The consensus that we reached was that the support set for Sharks (190-409) was short enough. However, you'll need two sets per locomotive (or, if you're doing an ABA set, 3 sets for the two A units). If you do this, this is something you should take pictures of and post, because it would benefit most of the folks on the list. In any case, enjoy! Doug LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > Okay guys, > I'm looking at Pat Lawless' models. I know that the Erie Builts were > purchased and originally run in ABA lashups. What was the most common lashup > for the BP20s -- AB or ABA?? > Which cal scale antenna kit or kits do you buy for Erie Bults, for the > BP20s? > I'm modeling early summer 1949. The original livery of the Erie built was > LE and single stripe with small Pennsylvania. The BP20s are also DGLE but > which lettering scheme.? > TIA > Tom V. > > Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio; > on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the > Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part > of the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for > non-motorized intercity travel. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:55:16 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] New Mantua PRR Atlantic Hello list, Logic finally hit me (hard, in the face), and I emailed Mantua about their upcoming PRR Atlantic. They were very nice and emailed back. The new engine will have the piston valve cylinders and a round headlight. I didn't ask about numbers or paint schemes, but with the round headlight and piston valves, the engine would be an E3sa/E7s, and appropriate from the early 20s (when the round headlights replaced the old square ones) to 1939, when the last E7s, the 8063, was retired. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:06:49 -0400 From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation Gary Mittner wrote: > > Lets not forget the famous inclines!. And speaking of the many Bridges > in Pittsburgh, you should see the model of the Famous Smithfield Street > Bridge (Street Car and auto) located at the Model Railroad Club in > Gibsonia, Pa. I don't know all the details but I believe it is built to > scale dimensions. Oh yeah, I think they have the Wabash Bridge as well. > Both look impressive! ....Gary Last time I was there (back in August when I was packing my stuff, I used to be a member until I moved to Cincinnati), the Smithfield Street Bridge was half done, and the Wabash had been done back in 1996. In HO scale the Wabash would be 17 feet long (about a 6th the length of the building!), but the builder used selective compression so it is only 9 feet long. Still very impressive. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky PRRT&HS #6713 ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:18:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] GP-7's-was-Long Hood Forward? Steve, Bob and list, I wrote an article years ago in Mainline Modler and detail the GP-7's and much of the roster material was edited out, but the breath of the article was printed. Bob is right the 8553 was seen often in the Chicago area. I have seen a picture of it tied up with a DT&I GP-7 on a weekend freight chore, Pennsy had leased these DT&I engines being a power short period. And I have seen the 8553 in Maryland too. I have nott seen the 8551 or 8552 in the west. Steve hit it right, the Atlas has to have work on the pilot. But a great locomotive. They represent early phase 2 GP-7's. In my article I detaile the antenna mast location in drawings I did for the article. Now remember the drawings were based on the old Frint Range shell and i might need some very minor adjustments for the Atlas shell, but very little as I recall. People complained about the running characteristics of the Front Range,but I never experienced these problems. Bob remember to make the canvas shades over the cab windows, I show how to do them in the article too. I loe the GeeP's, geat engine too bad they were consider more than a switcher... Greg Martin Bob and Steve wrote: > > 8553 is usually lumped with that group and was used on the Chicago Valpo dummies (transfer freights on the weekends or offhours). It is pictured quite often short end forward, so I always suspected it had dual controls. There might be others, since there were more than one used in the service in Chicago--sure that 8551 or 8552 didn't migrate Westward?<< > 8553 may have had dual controls, but the info I have does not make it clear. All three were delivered in 1953. That is the trouble with GP7's--PRR had so many different configurations. I do not know if 8551 and 8552 migrated west--for some of us time stops in 1954.< > > My current project is a torpedo boat GP7. Modifiying an Atlas GP7 sans dynamic brakes with the Details West kit for the torpedos. I don't know if the underbody tanks need to be modified or if I am up to that. If I get the torpedos and antennas, that will get the major appearance items.<< > The main difficulty with using an Atlas is having to revise the hard cast metal footboards to the later style which had "pockets" to retain the loose ends of the MU hoses. 8797 to 8806 would be appropriate, but these did not have steam generators. P2K GP7's have to have these changed also, but the plastic is a lot easier to slice off to make room for Detail Associates 2208. The underbody does need modification to make room for the train control boxes. The real trick on any torpedo tube GP7 is routing the train phone antenna---I have yet to find a photo that show this installation.< > > BTW, how many of you guys with Proto2000 Geeps have turned your engineer and fireman around? :-) > Of course!< > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:47:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation In a message dated 04/12/2000 4:22:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Lets not forget the famous inclines!. And speaking of the many Bridges in Pittsburgh, you should see the model of the Famous Smithfield Street Bridge (Street Car and auto) located at the Model Railroad Club in Gibsonia, Pa. I don't know all the details but I believe it is built to scale dimensions. Oh yeah, I think they have the Wabash Bridge as well. Both look impressive! ....Gary >> All: First for legal reasons and tax status as a non-profit organization it the the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum (WPMRM). It is not a model railroad club. Sorry to be emphatic but it is extremely important. The Smithfield STreet bridge was built from Penn DOT's plans used during the major renovation of the bridge about 5 years ago. It is actually approximately 2/3 full scale size. The Wabash bridge was built following erection plans and is about 1/2 scale size. Both bridges were shortened because of room constraints. Nevertheless they are impressive. The north shore approach of the Panhandle bridge will be appearing on the layout in the next year or so as well as the north end of the Liberty bridge. Both will terminate at the edge of the layout. Rich Orr Chr. Design Committee and Operations Committee Board of Sirectors WPMRM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:52:49 EDT Subject: Re: Pittsburgh Club Was: [PRR] Modeling Observation In a message dated 04/12/2000 5:46:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tstuart@forcomm.net writes: << They have changed their name to "Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum," but it's still the model railroad club and a fantastic layout that portrays lines including the Western Maryland and the Salisbury Viaduct. One really has to SEE this layout, although opportunites are minimal save for the Christmas Season open house. >> We are always accepting new members -- then you get to build the layout. Generally the layout is being worked on from March through October. Our holiday show runs from the week before Theanksgving to the second weekend of January. Open Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday and some weekdays between Christmas and New Years. Work sessions are on Monday and Wednesday evening (except when Penn DOT cuts our power line like today), you can usually get a tour of the layout but it is not operating on these nights. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling Observation Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:08:55 -0700 Don't jump to an early conclusion! Both myself and Jack Consoli are modeling the Monongahela Branch in different eras, and several others are modeling or planning layouts on other areas or aspects of the PRR in Pittsburgh. While most of us don't have the space to do the whole pie, and Mark is right about it being daunting, maybe we can divide it up into manageable slices? Anyone for pie ala mode? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej [mailto:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] Sent: None To: jerry@pennsyrr.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation Jerry Britton scribit: > > Of all the layouts that have been discussed on this list over the years -- a > few Horseshoe Curves, a couple of Philadelphia's, two or three Harrisburg's, > a few Elmira Branches, etc. -- I'm surprised that nobody is modeling > Pittsburgh! > > You'd think that with the convergence of Lines West, a large city passenger > station, all of that freight with the steel industry, etc. Yet nobody has > modeled it? Rivers. Bridges. Tunnel. 2 freight yards. 3 main lines. Bypasses. The Conway -- Pitcairn transfer traffic alone could be the theme for an entire layout. Equally interesting is the local traffic both downtown and, as Jerry mentions, elsewhere in the mills area. Plus you get to model P&LE, B&LE, URR, B&O, and even, thanks to P&LE, some old beat-up NYC equipment. :-) Jerry, perhaps, like the NEC, it's one of those things that's just a bit too daunting? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:19:24 -0500 From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] Interesting car on ex-PRR Saw an interesting reefer (?) on the NS (nee -PRR) tonight in Indiana, it was a long, about 60', UP box, with UPFE reporting marks, smooth sides with apparent material of fiberglass or resin material, not quick enough to get a numbber, sat between two UPFE mechanical reefers of the older PFE design. Didn't notice any mechanical devices, but they might have been buried in the end. Joyhn ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: Modeling Observation Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:31:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation From: "Mark Bej" Date: Wed, 12 Apr 100 14:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Pe PGH Mark said> Plus you get to model P&LE, B&LE, URR, B&O, and even, thanks to P&LE, some old beat-up NYC equipment. :-) -------------------------- Please be advised the P&LE did not operate NYC's beat up equipment. The P&LE had their own excellent motive power and equipment fleet which they kept well maintained. In the later years their excellent car shop refurbished freight cars for lease and resale. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:37:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Rail Fest I hope to get out there this year. (Intended to last year, but got sick and had to cancel at last minute). But the key to the whole thing for me is whether or not they run the trips up to Gallitzin. If not, I probably won't bother going out. Rumor has it that NS is not as interested in Railfest as CR was. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:50:28 -0400 From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation Mark Bej wrote: > Rivers. Bridges. Tunnel. 2 freight yards. 3 main lines. Bypasses. > > The Conway -- Pitcairn transfer traffic alone could be the theme for an > entire layout. Equally interesting is the local traffic both downtown and, > as Jerry mentions, elsewhere in the mills area. Plus you get to model > P&LE, B&LE, URR, B&O, and even, thanks to P&LE, some old beat-up NYC > equipment. :-) Don't forget the Wabash/P&WV station at the corner of Liberty and Stanwix (Stanwix had a different name atthe time but I forget what it was). The PRR yard along Liberty Avenue would make a decent layout in itself. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky PRRT&HS #6713 ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:00:52 -0400 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: [PRR] Modeling The Conemaugh I've always had this dream on modeling the Conemaugh in the late 60's some day, and I think the time is getting nearer. Looks like we're going to convert our two car garage into a train room! I've been looking through the CT1000 along with some maps I have, and the Railpace Conemaugh article from April 1990, and think with a little modelers license I could go from Conpit to Etna yard. This could possibly include the branch line up to Butler for interchange with the B&LE and the B&O. Plenty of industries along the way too, possibilities include Allegheny Ludlum Steel in Brackenridge, Penn Salt in Natrona, PPG in Creighton, Alcoa in West New Kensington, a power plant in Cheswick(?) not to mention all the sidings and smaller yards along the route. Does anyone have info on the "Tunnelton Coal Loop"? The railpace article mentions trains FW-8 and VC-1 being regulars on the Conemaugh. I've also found WP-20/WP-21 and KC-1/KC-2 into and out of Kiski junction. Any suggestions where I could locate some more info on regular trains using this route? I'd really like to put together a railroad with plenty of operating potential. Any help will be very appreciated. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] General Interlocking Question Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:33:39 -0500 I've studied several interlocking diagrams, and can figure out signal types, # of levers, which lever controls which turnout or sgnal, etc. But how is the actual "interlocking" documented. For instance, given positions of levers 1, 2, and 3; can lever 4 be moved? For smaller interlockings, I think I can figure this out, but what about larger plants like ZOO? I think the general procedure is for signals to normally show stop. The operator would align the turnouts for a particular route, then move the lever for the signal to proceed, or some other aspect. If the turnouts were in some conflicting route, the signal lever would be "locked out", and the operator couldn't move it to some proceed aspect. Is this correct? I would appreciate hearing more about how interlockings are actually operated. Thanks, Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Modeling Observation Date: Thu, 13 Apr 100 08:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Al Buchan responds: > > Pe PGH Mark said> > > Plus you get to model P&LE, B&LE, URR, B&O, and even, thanks to P&LE, some > > old beat-up NYC equipment. :-) > Please be advised the P&LE did not operate NYC's beat up equipment. The P&LE > had their own excellent motive power and equipment fleet which they kept > well maintained. In the later years their excellent car shop refurbished > freight cars for lease and resale. Al, given the NYC connection, the P&LE would have had some NYC cars in interchange, no? Please also note the smiley. The last phrase was a joke, given that this is a PRR list. I ASSumed that a PRR modeler throwing in some P&LE for good measure might want to model an NYC car or two, and to, shall we say, "ultra-weather" them to make a, shall we say, political statement. Chill out, man! :-) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: RE: [PRR] General Interlocking Question Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:16:50 -0400 Andy: My own experience as a visitor at Bruin [PRR's E&P/EL] and Shenango [XN, B&LE/EL] was: there is a table which lists which levers are to be reversed for a particular routing. Usually, unless another routing is on a parallel path, all other levers are returned to normal position in reverse order that they were set, then you reverse the new route's levers in order [turnouts have locks which are pulled first, turnout is operated, then lock is returned to normal position], finally you hit the signal levers, some of those were small levers that were bidirectional [ie forward meant east, full back meant west, center, stop all], then last you turned on the time lock which locked up plant for 5 minutes [or whatever]. When routing was done, levers were returned to normal position in reverse order. In case of following movements on same routing, signal levers were cycled to normal then correct direction then time lock activated again. Parallel routes could be set up so two trains could go through plant at same time. Certain signal levers had halfway points for slow approach indications, and this was noted on certain routings; these were the small levers of the XN plant. Other signal indications were predetermined by interlocking depending on routing, and conditions of advance blocks. Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio] -----Original Message----- From: Andy Cich [SMTP:ajc5150@net66.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 1:34 AM To: Prr-talk Subject: [PRR] General Interlocking Question I've studied several interlocking diagrams, and can figure out signal types, # of levers, which lever controls which turnout or sgnal, etc. But how is the actual "interlocking" documented. For instance, given positions of levers 1, 2, and 3; can lever 4 be moved? For smaller interlockings, I think I can figure this out, but what about larger plants like ZOO? I think the general procedure is for signals to normally show stop. The operator would align the turnouts for a particular route, then move the lever for the signal to proceed, or some other aspect. If the turnouts were in some conflicting route, the signal lever would be "locked out", and the operator couldn't move it to some proceed aspect. Is this correct? I would appreciate hearing more about how interlockings are actually operated. Thanks, Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:25:15 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Pittsburgh Club Was: [PRR] Modeling Observation Greetings to the group, I had the opportunity to see this club's layout in action during the 1996 PRR T&HS convention. As Gary said, this layout is truly a MUST SEE. _Railroad Model Craftsman_ did an article of the layout too. Can't remember the year but I believe it was between 1990 and 1996. In addition to a great prototype orented layout, they are (or at least were in 1996) using Dr. Bruce Chubb's C/MRI system for signals and train automation. It was really neat to see a train slow to a smooth stop in front of a signal, see the switch points move over, the signal change and the train slowly begin moving again. If you get a chance, take the opportunity to see it. They have a web site at http://www.fyi.net/~wpmrm/ that will give you some idea of how well executed it is and that's not real water under those bridges either! Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 05:35 PM 04/12/2000 -0400, W. Terry Stuart wrote: >Yes, Gary, and there is some representation of downtown Pittsburgh as well >as areas surrounding Pittsburgh on that layout as well. > >They have changed their name to "Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad >Museum," but it's still the model railroad club and a fantastic layout that >portrays lines including the Western Maryland and the Salisbury Viaduct. >One really has to SEE this layout, although opportunites are minimal save >for the Christmas Season open house. > > > > >Lets not forget the famous inclines!. And speaking of the many Bridges >in Pittsburgh, you should see the model of the Famous Smithfield Street >Bridge (Street Car and auto) located at the Model Railroad Club in >Gibsonia, Pa. I don't know all the details but I believe it is built to >scale dimensions. Oh yeah, I think they have the Wabash Bridge as well. >Both look impressive! ....Gary > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:56:18 -0500 From: st96ap87@drexel.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] General Interlocking Question >I've studied several interlocking diagrams, and can figure out signal types, ># of levers, which lever controls which turnout or sgnal, etc. > >But how is the actual "interlocking" documented. For instance, given >positions of levers 1, 2, and 3; can lever 4 be moved? For smaller >interlockings, I think I can figure this out, but what about larger plants >like ZOO? > >I think the general procedure is for signals to normally show stop. The >operator would align the turnouts for a particular route, then move the >lever for the signal to proceed, or some other aspect. If the turnouts were >in some conflicting route, the signal lever would be "locked out", and the >operator couldn't move it to some proceed aspect. > >Is this correct? I would appreciate hearing more about how interlockings >are actually operated. > >Thanks, > > >Andy > > At interlockings like Zoo; Odd numbers are for switches and even are for signals. Switches have normal(N) and reverse(R) positions. The normal position of home and controlled signals is stop. You will be able to tell if the signal is a controlled signal or automatic on the diagram and also all possible aspects. Controlled signals have a half quarter moon darkened in where the signal arm and mast meet while automatics do not. The top arm on the signal is known as the A arm and the bottom as the B arm. On the A arm of a controlled signal you will see a darkened horizontal line. This indicates a normal position of stop. The thinner lines at 45 and 90 degrees indicate possible approach and clear aspects. Which ever line is darkened on an automatic shows it's normal position. The most restrictive aspect on 99.99% of automatics is stop and proceed. For controlled signals it is possible for one of these signal levers to controll more than on signal on the ground, both of which would share the same number such as 134R. The position of a turnout such as 129 switch in advance of the signal will determine which signal displays when the signal lever is moved to the right(R) position. The 134L signal would be the opposing signal to the 134R and would display with the lever moved to the left. Signal levers also have a normal(N) position which is in the middle. If the operator had the 134R displayed he could knock it down or bring it back to stop by attempting to bring the lever back to the N position. The signal would go to stop instantly on the ground. The operator would then have to run time to be able to bring the lever to the full restore postion or normal position. The amount of time is predetermined according to speeds and braking distances and different for every siganl. While the operator is running time the entire route through the interlocking would be locked out preventing any of the swiches being thrown. This is time locking at an interlocking. After time had run the operator would have to reset the clock and move the signal lever to the full normal position. He would then be able to throw his switches. If the operator dropped the signal in the face of a train and the train was too close to stop and proceeded into the route the switches would be locked out by route locking. The presence of a T.O.L or shunted track circuit by the train prevents the throwing of switches in the route. If the operator had a T.O.L pop because of eqipment failure or even from broken rail(extremely rare cause of a T.O.L) he could get the signal on the button. This is a round button above the lever that will allow the signal to display stop and proceed. This reduces delays by allowing the operator to avoid giving the train permission by a stop signal. I hope this is of some use to you. I apolgize for poor grammar and or writing. Dave >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:54:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Standard time vs. PRR A month or so ago I raised a question regarding the role of Allegheny Observatory as the source of standard time fo the PRR. Today I stumbled over a web site which reproduces a number of magazine articles from the late 19th century. Among them is a lengthy article from Harper's Monthly of April, 1878 titled "The Electric Time Service", which goes on at some length about timekeeping in the era before the adoption of Standard Time in 1883. The URL is http://www.railroadextra.com/sttime.Html ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:07:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] General Interlocking Question The comments so far have been most interesting, especially Dave's; his use of vocabulary suggests that he has really had his hands on the machines and has used them! (Your grammar is fine, Dave!). I wonder if the answers would depend greatly on what kind of interlocking machine was in service; purely mechanical, with pipes connected to switches and maybe semaphores ("Armstrong"), electro-pneumatic, or more modern types which must be totally electronic by now. (What did the PRR use typically?) Also, the original question I think wanted some answers as to how the interlocking was accomplished, that is, what kept the operator from moving say a switch lever, and how did it work? Of course, the basic idea is that an operator could not clear a signal for a route until all the turnouts were set properly and locked, the track circuits clear, and no conflicting signals cleared already. Switches can't be unlocked or moved unless there are no routes cleared through the switch and the track circuit is unocupied, and so on. But how is this done? I recall a Model Railroader article series back in the early Sixties -- build your own model of an interlocking machine. I think it may have been by Gordon Odegard. It showed how to build, from brass shapes, miniature levers and the interlocking mechanism for a model Armstrong interlocker. There was an arrangement of crossbars, located below the levers, which have locking pins or "dogs" fitting into notches in the vertical bars connected to each manual lever. The horizontal crossbars would have the "dogs" located at several levers, which could not be simultaneously cleared -- the horizontal bar prevented this. This is hard to describe without a picture! But I imagine the original Armstrong plants were quite similar to the MR model. I am not sure I have the right terminology for all this! John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:32:17 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Passenger track, Freight track, which is which? As I recall, passenger trains would approach Latrobe on one of the inner tracks, going through a crossover to the outer track if they were stopping at the station. Leaving the station, they would go through another crossover to return to the inner track. That on the 4-track main line. So, when I've run into references to "the passenger track", "the freight track", I've assumed that in 4-track territory, the inner tracks were passenger, the outer tracks freight. Recently I saw a track diagram which had the 4 tracks marked with F's and P's, and the outer tracks had the P's. Hmmmm. Was there a general rule (with an exception here and there), or did the designation of freight vs. passenger vary from place to place? In all that, I'm thinking of 4-track territory. For double or single track the question doesn't really arise, does it? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:35:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] General Interlocking Question Bob & folks, At home i have a book called "The American Railway" which is a reprint of a 19th Century text. One of the chapters has an interesting desciption of armstrong interlocking plants and how they work. I'll see if I can't glean some info from that to post later. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:36:53 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] A day at COLA tower >Bruce and List: >Form 41 is the public timetable form for Philadelphia-Harrisburg-Roanoke. >Form 1 was the System timetable. Form 36 was for New York-Philadelphia and >Norfolk. Form 39 was Baltimore-Harrisburg, etc. >Form 41 does not list Frederick, but Form 39 does. April 28, 1946 Form 39 >confirms 668/669 as the Frederick train, discontinued August 14, 1948. >I agree the others were turn-around trains. At Lancaster the self-propelled >cars would lay over on a stub track that was in an indentation in the west >end of the westbound platform. That indentation is still there. >--Fred Abendschein > Fred, Would they turn these cars around on the turntable at Lancaster? What about in York or Frederick. I know that most of the gas/oil electric cars could run in both directions, but I also thought that the PRR was a bit averse to running them in reverse (so to say ) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:06:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] A day at COLA tower From: Jerry Britton On 4/13/00 2:36 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Would they turn these cars around on the turntable at Lancaster? What > about in York or Frederick. I know that most of the gas/oil electric cars > could run in both directions, but I also thought that the PRR was a bit > averse to running them in reverse (so to say ) > York had a wye. FYI. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:49:46 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] A day at COLA tower >On 4/13/00 2:36 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) >wrote: > >> Would they turn these cars around on the turntable at Lancaster? What >> about in York or Frederick. I know that most of the gas/oil electric cars >> could run in both directions, but I also thought that the PRR was a bit >> averse to running them in reverse (so to say ) >> >York had a wye. FYI. Du-uh. To the corner with me...I KNEW that! Heck, I've read Ivan's article on the Frederick Branch in the latest Keystone cover to cover at least twice already . Now, it does seem likely that they would turn the cars...(nice shot of one being turned on an armstrong table in the High Line reprint on the Octoraro branch) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling Observation- Pittsburgh Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:18:04 -0700 Greg, Can you tell us more about your layout? I'd love to see how you are doing the trackwork, industries, etc. We don't get to see much good Pgh modeling, and I don't know why. There are a few of us out there who model Pgh and environs, and would like to see what others are doing. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Greg Johnson [mailto:gjohnson@unitedvalve.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 2:18 PM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling Observation- Pittsburgh Not wanting to bite off more than I can chew, I have chosen to model only the Monongahela area of Pittsburgh, with its abundance of heavy industry and interesting traffic mix. On the layout I have interchange operations with the P&LE and the B&O. Yes, it would be nice to have Pitcairn or Conway, the Panhandle, the depot and perhaps the produce terminal. But my 22' x 33' space is pretty full recreating the southwestern side of town. As Clint Eastwood would say, "you got to know your limitations". Regards, Greg Johnson Modeling 1967 Pittsburgh in 2000 Houston, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" Of all the layouts that have been discussed on this list over the years -- a > few Horseshoe Curves, a couple of Philadelphia's, two or three Harrisburg's, > a few Elmira Branches, etc. -- I'm surprised that nobody is modeling > Pittsburgh! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:25:22 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] Bell location On p. 48-49 in the lastest Keystone there is a 1947 drawing which shows the bell located on the lower front of the smokebox. I don't recall seeing any photos of locos with the bell located there. Any comments? -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:27:59 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] Steam builder reputations For early diesels, EMD had the best reputation for quality & Baldwin had the worst. I was just curious if any of the steam builders had a better or worse reputation. -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:38:34 EDT Subject: Re: Pittsburgh Club Was: [PRR] Modeling Observation In a message dated 04/13/2000 9:35:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: << n addition to a great prototype orented layout, they are (or at least were in 1996) using Dr. Bruce Chubb's C/MRI system for signals and train automation. >> Bruce Chubb has been and continues to be consulted on the system. However, the size of the layout necessitated some modification of his system. WE currently have three mother boards benaeth the layout and will be adding at least one more and probably 2 more. The software used by Dr. Cubbb serves as the basis for the software running the layout but it has been rewritten so many times that it is totally different. Currently, one of our members who writes code for a living is updating the software in Visual C++. This will allow multiple monitors with each showing only a portion of the layout -- dispatchers will only see the territory they control -- and we can add new blocks, turnouts, signals and other items through the use of built in screens rather than changing the code by hand. When conpleted the system will be controlling well over 150 blocks (50-60 in Glennwood yard alone) 300+ turnouts signals. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bell location Jerry, The modernized K5 class Pacific is the loco in question.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:47:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Bell location >On p. 48-49 in the lastest Keystone there is a 1947 drawing which shows >the bell located on the lower front of the smokebox. I don't recall >seeing any photos of locos with the bell located there. Any comments? I too saw that drawing, and thought it might be a Q-2 or J-1...but a look at the fine print indicates that it is specifically for the K-5 Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger track, Freight track, which is which? Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:13:49 -0400 > So, when I've run into references to "the passenger track", "the freight track", >I've assumed that in 4-track territory, the inner tracks were passenger, > the outer tracks freight. > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob Bob This must have depended on the territory. As I remember from living there in the late '50s and early '60s, on the Main Line west of Philadelphia (Overbrook to Paoli) the outside tracks were reserved for commuter traffic (MP54's , etc) while frieght and through passanger traffic used the inner tracks. When maintenance work would occasionally close an inner track, wooden walk ways would be placed between the rails where the MP54 car doors were to be located during station stops. Bruce Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] General Interlocking Question Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:30:31 -0700 You are correct that the interlocking logic is not documented on the interlocking diagrams. This would be documented elsewhere. It would essentially be a list, showing under what conditions each lever would lock. For a place like Zoo, this would be an enormously complex list. But the basic logic is not difficult to apply. The signal levers are prevented from moving when the route ahead (determined by the switch levers) is invalid. The signal levers are also prevented from moving when an opposing signal lever has been pulled off. Also if check levers and traffic levers are not correct. The switch levers are prevented from moving when a route has been pulled off (by a signal lever) over the switch. Switch levers are also prevented from moving when there is a train in the interlocking either enroute to or on the switch. This is called route locking and is necessary because the signal lever can be restored to normal as soon as the train accepts (passes) the signal. Route locking logic depends on the direction of the train in an interlocking, and this is why the rulebook states that trains cannot reverse direction within interlocking. The switch levers actually had four positions. The lever would only be able to move into the extreme left and right (normal,reverse) positions when the switchpoints on the ground were in correspondance with the lever. So to throw a switch reverse, the leverman would move the lever from far left position to the middle right. At this point the switch motor would begin to move the points. When the switch had completely thrown and locked, the leverman would then be able to move the lever the rest of the way rightward to the reverse position. And vice-versa going normal. The signal levers actually had 5 positions. Center was normal, far left for leftward signals (as drawn on tower's modelboard), far right for rightward. Under normal circumstances, the leverman would use only the center and extreme positions. Only if a train accepts a signal can the lever be moved from extreme left/right to center. If the leverman takes the signal away without a train passing it, the lever can only move halfway toward the center position. This takes the signal away, but keeps the route locking in effect. Only after run-down (the timer) has expired, can the signal lever be fully restored to the center normal position. Pictures of the lever machines can be found at: http://johncoop.home.netcom.com/pt/pictures/zoo1.jpg http://johncoop.home.netcom.com/pt/pictures/zoo2.jpg http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps/C-index.html John > ---------- > From: Andy Cich[SMTP:ajc5150@net66.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:33 PM > To: Prr-talk > Subject: [PRR] General Interlocking Question > > I've studied several interlocking diagrams, and can figure out signal > types, > # of levers, which lever controls which turnout or sgnal, etc. > > But how is the actual "interlocking" documented. For instance, given > positions of levers 1, 2, and 3; can lever 4 be moved? For smaller > interlockings, I think I can figure this out, but what about larger plants > like ZOO? > > I think the general procedure is for signals to normally show stop. The > operator would align the turnouts for a particular route, then move the > lever for the signal to proceed, or some other aspect. If the turnouts > were > in some conflicting route, the signal lever would be "locked out", and the > operator couldn't move it to some proceed aspect. > > Is this correct? I would appreciate hearing more about how interlockings > are actually operated. > > Thanks, > > > Andy > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:20:52 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bell location Jerry, list, The bell location on pages 48-49 of the Spring 2000 Keystone applied only to K5 engines 5698 and 5699 after WWII when they received the headlight and generator switch and drop coupler pilots. Unlike the K4s class, the K5 engines had boilers too fat to allow mounting on the boiler tops (and still meet systemwide clearance restrictions). Doug Jerry Shickler wrote: > On p. 48-49 in the lastest Keystone there is a 1947 drawing which shows > the bell located on the lower front of the smokebox. I don't recall > seeing any photos of locos with the bell located there. Any comments? > -- > Jerry Shickler > Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:20:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam builder reputations In a message dated 4/13/00 5:44:19 PM Central Daylight Time, egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil writes: << Since I was not grown enough to remember steam, the only story I've heard in that regard is that the PRR did not think that highly of their steam power, either, compared to their own, Baldwins or Alcos. >> I don't know much about the relative merits of the three builders, but IMHO the best loco Pennsy ever had was the J1, a Lima design, though built at Altoona. I'm not sure I would tar Lima with a negative brush as a company overall based upon their diesel engine acquisition, Hamilton. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] Update on B60 kitbash project Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:21:34 -0400 Dear list: I promised that I would report back to you on the success I had with the Smithsonian and others for geting photos of B60 Baggage cars. So far, except for Keith Retterer, a commercial supplier of photos, I have NOT received an answer from ANYBODY ELSE! (I'm rather disgusted by the lack of response from the Smithsonian in particular. I sent them seven e-mails, to various addresses, C/O various people etc. I also wrote and mailed them a USPS letter.) Keith sent me a free photo of PRR #7376 with his list. This baggage car is fascinating. It looks just like the B60 from the side, (my hunch is that it is 60' long) but it has end doors like the horse and theatre cars. It has 3 - 2 - 3 rivit panels per side and the four windows and two doors with rectangular windows/panels. It has numbers under the belt rail positioned below the end windows, "Pennsylvania Lines" in PRR Roman, with "Adams Express Company" on two lines, cenetered, under the belt rail. The car rides on 4 wheel trucks, and is covered with the "turtle" roof! Anyone know anything about this car? This one is new to me. I ordered a copy of a photo of PRR #5623 from Keith which appears to be an "as built" B60 with windows. Thanks for your help folks, Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower. We market a wide selection of all natural jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. E-mail your USPS address to us for our current price list. White Buck Farm is located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:13:54 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on B60 kitbash project Hi Lew & list members, > Keith sent me a free photo of PRR #7376 with his list. This baggage car is > fascinating. It looks just like the B60 from the side, (my hunch is that it > is 60' long) but it has end doors like the horse and theatre cars. It has > 3 - 2 - 3 rivit panels per side and the four windows and two doors with > rectangular windows/panels. It has numbers under the belt rail positioned > below the end windows, "Pennsylvania Lines" in PRR Roman, with "Adams > Express Company" on two lines, cenetered, under the belt rail. The car > rides on 4 wheel trucks, and is covered with the "turtle" roof! Anyone know > anything about this car? This one is new to me. I've heard tell of a PRR class B60-a which had end doors, but I've never seen a drawing or photo. Might this be that mystery car class? > I promised that I would report back to you on the success I had with the > Smithsonian and others for geting photos of B60 Baggage cars. So far, > except for Keith Retterer, a commercial supplier of photos, I have NOT > received an answer from ANYBODY ELSE! (I'm rather disgusted by the lack of > response from the Smithsonian in particular. I sent them seven e-mails, to > various addresses, C/O various people etc. I also wrote and mailed them a > USPS letter.) Lew, the Smithsonian is a huge place, and unless you know where to "plug yourself into" it is like telephoning into a black hole. After some trial and error, I've had some good luck with them - get in touch with me if you still can't get an response from them and we can exchange notes and trade contact info. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam builder reputations Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:37:36 -0700 >From talking to various diesel maintainers/motive power foremen, etc. over the years, not even Baldwin (which got much better after 1950)could compare to the miserable performance of the Hamilton-powered Limas. The Centipedes and "Baby-Face" Baldwins were horrible, but the Limas were universally detested. I talked to a B&O shop guy that told me he heard a rumor that someone once set one on fire to "help it" toward retirement, but it wouldn't even burn, probably out of spite. I would love to hear more stories on this subject, but one of the best is Bill Volkmer's story in PDY#6. An absolute classic. Since I was not grown enough to remember steam, the only story I've heard in that regard is that the PRR did not think that highly of their steam power, either, compared to their own, Baldwins or Alcos. Come on, let's hear your best!! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Shickler [mailto:jshickler@lkerie.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 1:28 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Steam builder reputations For early diesels, EMD had the best reputation for quality & Baldwin had the worst. I was just curious if any of the steam builders had a better or worse reputation. -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] General Interlocking Question Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:11:12 -0500 Thanks to the many answers to my question. They were exactly what I was looking for. I've got some good stuff to digest, and I'll probably ask more questions later. Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:18:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7's-was-Long Hood Forward? Don, Stu, Bob and all, The article appeared in Mainline Modeler March of 1992. It is a double dipper PRR issue, my GP-7 article and my brother Ed Martin kitbashes a MDC/Roundhouse Ore Jenny in to a correct G-38 ore Jenny. Plus Martin Lofton did an article on the Meat Reefers and Noel Holley does an excellent article on the Tichy steam wrecker. This issue is a must have issue... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:06:05 -0400 From: Rick Nelson Subject: [PRR] interlockings Tp Andy and other list members, if you would like to operate an electric interlocking machine, visit us at AC tower in Marion, Ohio. The tower was moved to the property of Marion Unio Station Association, just across the track form where it guarded the Erie/PRR crossing. To be sure the tower is open, contact me and set up a time. We are usually there on Sat and Sun afternoons, but to be sure, let me know and we'll meet you. Also, on Sunday PM you can see the layout of the Marion Model RR Club in the station building where it has been from 1950 on. Rick Nelson, W8PRR rcnelson @ bright.net Luke 4:4 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:17:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] From: Jerry Britton On 4/14/99 10:10 AM, Thomas von Trott (prr643@usa.net) wrote: > Hey, I was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me about the > new Bachman K4s. I have heard that they now run much better, but someone > told me that the front number plate on them was incorrect (he said it said > PRR > instead of the locomotive number). Is this true? I would like to know > before I purchase, as I am planning on eventually getting both 3750 and > 1361(to doublehead them of course). Thanks. > Can't tell you which, off hand, but one has the PRR plate and one has the number plate. I have both, at home. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:21:08 -0500 From: st96ap87@drexel.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] General Interlocking Question >Who is Dave? a maintainer or an operator at Zoo? > Woody I'm a maintainer working out of Penn Coach Yard but the railroad is already out of money for the year and I'm hoping to hold on anywhere. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:30:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Subject: [PRR] Model RR Club of Buffalo Semi Annual Open House This year our Spring Open House is Saturday, April 15th and Sunday, April 16th from 1 PM to 6 PM both days. We ask for a small donation at the door to help us pay our yearly expenses, $5 for the immediate family or $2 per adult, children under 5 free. Our club is located at the Town Boys and Girls Club at 54 Riverdale near Vulcan and Tonawanda streets in Tonawanda, NY near the Buffalo city line. The Club entrance is on the Edgar Street side of the building Hope some people from the list can come and see our work Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:14:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] In a message dated 4/14/00 9:31:37 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Can't tell you which, off hand, but one has the PRR plate and one has the number plate. I have both, at home. >> 3750 has the PRR plate. An easy fix. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri Apr 14 14:37:38 2000 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Update:ALCo PA's Heading to Oregon Hey Yuze Gize, Here is an upadate as of 11:15 am PST. The PA's are now in Pueblo, Co on track #726 seq 69&70 and are assigned to an Albuquerque to Denver train and as of this morning has no crew call. (Stuart Thayer get your camera ready)I will be unable to track them again until Mnday morning as the office will be closed. As they approach Portland the PA's will have the option to head to Albany, OR on the Up (most logical) or down the UP to Salem, Or and west into Albany on the BNSF(Oreagon Electric line) which would mean they will run by our office across the interchange here about 500 yards south of our ofice (cascade Warehouse). Regardless, when they arrive in Albany the trucks and prime mover will be waiting for them. I think the Pat Lawless (Miracle Castings) told me these trucks were taken from scraped FM-C-liners. I know that the prime mover for at least one units is on a hulk BCOL Alco that is currently in Albany,OR covered with a blue tarp. I don't have photo's of them as I ! have felt they are not going anywhere. I know that when Todd made his last trip out he did shoot a couple of photo's of them just for ducks (Oregon Ducks pun intended). Stu, if you get a chance to catch them this weekend maybe you can update this list on their condition. I hear they are in sad shape. But they will look like new when they are done. The restoration work will be handled by the Willamette & Pacific (a Genoveese & Wyoming Co) at their shops. The shops are about 28 miles south of me here. I will keep all updated! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Doodlebug pics and queries Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 19:04:38 +0100 Three new pictures (Doodlebugs) are on the website: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm 1) OEG415 Brill Model 660 #4668 This picture appears to be taken next to a coaling tower. Were these vehicles stabled along with steam locomotives? In the UK there were a number of steam-powered railcars (mainly built by Clayton and Sentinel in the 1920s for the London & North Eastern Railway). The operating department allocated them to steam depots where they shared the ready tracks with the genuine articles. This proved to be somewhat of a mistake as they got into a deplorably filthy state. My father remembers riding them in the late '30s and '40s and recalls the clouds of soot and ash that rose from the seats when anyone sat down. 2) OEG415 #4667 Can anyone identify the location? I've scanned this one because of the variation in paintwork that's apparent. Not being able to find any references to changes in the formula for Tuscan Red, am I right in thinking the colour difference is due to ageing and weathering alone? Crimson based pigments as used on our railways were prone to change quite rapidly and soon tended to become a purple-brown. Did a similar effect such as this occur with PRR stock? 3) OEG350 Pullman Number not known I've included this one because the bell gable on the building in the background should be a clue as to the location. Any ideas, anyone? Regards, John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:06:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Doodlebug pics and queries From: Jerry Britton On 4/14/00 2:04 PM, John H. Wright (johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk) wrote: > Three new pictures (Doodlebugs) are on the website: > http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm > > 2) OEG415 #4667 > Can anyone identify the location? I am 99% sure this is Baltimore. View is from present day site of I-83. Passenger station would be about 45-degrees to the left. It has a raised platform and the driveway descending to the lower level exactly as this appears. The actual main line passenger platforms were on the opposite side of the station. However, the locals used this side after the trackage was reworked and B&P and Union towers were put in. To the left (west) these tracks merged with those coming out of the station to head to either Washington or York (Northern Central Branch). To the right they curved away from the main line and headed into downtown Baltimore (Calvert Station). Further support. The Baltimore Post Office was built directly east of the passenger station and in the same style as the passenger station. See that building in the background with the clock? That's the post office. You can't read the characters, but there are the right number for "Baltimore Post Office". The retaining wall in the right foreground is the Jones Falls waterway. heck, make it 100% sure!!! 8-) > > 3) OEG350 Pullman Number not known > I've included this one because the bell gable on the building in the > background should be a clue as to the location. Any ideas, anyone? > Note also the REA station to the right. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:22:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Doodlebug pics and queries John, Excellant photos, thank you for posting them! Gas electrics have always been a favorite of mine. Photo 1-If I could take a guess, I'd think it was Camden, NJ. The engine facilities there were rather linear, and quite a few of these cars ran out of there. I wonder if the open skyline behind the reefers isn't above the Delaware River? Photo 3)-Please let us know on this one. That setting looks like prime modeling territory to me! Thanks again. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:50:03 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] Hi Tom: I purchased one of these "new" Bachmann K4's and I am very pleased with it's looks as well as it's running characteristics. It's not the strongest engine in the world, but it will pull at least five passenger cars up a 1.5% grade. It does run very smooth. I have a fleet of 39 brass steam locomotives. This Bachmann is the only plastic steam loco on the roster. It runs as well as most of my brass, and better than some. Your friend is correct about the number plate. Mine does have the PRR rather than the number. This is easily fixed with a little paint and decals. Don't let this dissuade you from your purchase. Heck, even if the decal gods prevented you from redoing the number plate....Who cares! It's still a fine model, especially considering the price. Now for the down side. The drivers are incorrect. They do scale out to a 76" diameter. I never noticed it until I double headed it with a PFM K4. Then I noticed that the Bachmann drivers were going faster than the PFM. Since you're going to double head it with another Bachmann, I wouldn't worry too much. The drivers themselves have a very nice black oxide finish that adds to the good looks of the engine. My suggestion.... go ahead an buy it. Larry Thomas von Trott wrote: > Hi there guys and gals: > > Hey, I was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me about the > new Bachman K4s. I have heard that they now run much better, but someone > told me that the front number plate on them was incorrect (he said it said > PRR > instead of the locomotive number). Is this true? I would like to know > before I purchase, as I am planning on eventually getting both 3750 and > 1361(to doublehead them of course). Thanks. > > Tom von Trott > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:54:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Update:ALCo PA's Heading to Oregon In a message dated 4/14/00 12:38:34 PM Mountain Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN writes: << Stu, if you get a chance to catch them this weekend maybe you can update this list on their condition. >> I just ran a trace on them, and they must have gone through the Springs about an hour and a half ago. Unfortunately, it looks like I missed them. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:17:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR] In a message dated 4/14/00 6:57:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, reynoldl@gte.net writes: << Mine does have the PRR rather than the number. This is easily fixed with a little paint and decals. Don't let this dissuade you from your purchase. Heck, even if the decal gods prevented you from redoing the number plate....Who cares! >> You can also buy one of several Brass number plates from the Schuychill Division at the convention, or by mail Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam builder reputations Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:19:44 -0400 I HAVE to jump into this thread in defense of Lima-built steam. The J1 was already mentioned, and the Nickel Plate Berks were untouchable. Lima and Super-Power were synonymous. I was surprised to hear about the L-H diesels though. I had always heard the Hamilton engines ran like a watch (maybe that was the problem, not rugged enough?). But in steam, Lima was BIG TIME! Rick S. Parsippany NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:40:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] General Interlocking Question Questions were raised about interlockings, and I just came across a site that features an HO scale model railroad of Suburban Station, 30th Station and Arsenal Interlocking. The modeler actually built a working lever machine for his layout, and gives some good information on the prototype and how he built his own version for his layout. The link is KC: John Cooper's Philadelphia Terminal , or http://pweb.netcom.com/~johncoop/pt/cooper.htm. Nice site. Check it out. Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:22:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger track, Freight track, which is which? In a message dated 00-04-13 14:40:37 EDT, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << Recently I saw a track diagram which had the 4 tracks marked with F's and P's, and the outer tracks had the P's. Hmmmm. Was there a general rule (with an >> On the Philly-New York 4-track sections, Tracks 1 and 4 generally had maximum speeds of 80mph, and Tracks 2 and 3 (the inner ones) had maximum speeds of 75mph in the pre-Metroliner days. It would be logical to assign the outer tracks for passenger use so that the platforms could be used. Nothing prevented an express from running on an inner track to overtake a local between certain points. I remember a North Philly-New York trip where an engineman (long since dead, but who will remain nameless anyway) welcomed me and a railfan buddy onto the engine of the Broadway, which was on No. 1 track. The eastward Spirit of St.Louis, running a bit late, was on No. 2, right next to us. (Or maybe he was on time and No. 28 was a bit late. This had to be sometime in 1966). We got "assigned seats" in the unoccupied rear cab of the GG-1, and were shocked to emerge into the rear cab as the train accelerated out of N.Philly with No. 30's engine right next to us! But, due to the variance in track speed, we gradually gained on him, and by the time both trains reached Bridesburg or Wissinoming, No. 30 was far enough back that his engineman couldn't see two unauthorized riders on 28's engine. Because 28 skipped Trenton and 30 made same, we never saw him again. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:44:35 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] Tom, list, I bought both of the latest production Bachmann K4s engines. Mine run nicely. In the inevitable comparison to the Bowser K4s, the Bachmann's plastic boiler is easier to redetail to correct minor inaccuracies (the marker lights are wrong, there's no stoker under the cab, and there's no mechanical lubricator to hit the high points). The new Bachmann engines weigh more than their predecessors, but do not lug as well as the much heavier Bowser engines. Anyway, the 1361 came with a Keystone number plate with "1361" on it. I've forgotten what my model of the 3750 came with; on both engines I removed the original plate and substituted one from Cal Scale that I'd painted and decalled. Doug Thomas von Trott wrote: > Hi there guys and gals: > > Hey, I was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me about the > new Bachman K4s. I have heard that they now run much better, but someone > told me that the front number plate on them was incorrect (he said it said > PRR > instead of the locomotive number). Is this true? I would like to know > before I purchase, as I am planning on eventually getting both 3750 and > 1361(to doublehead them of course). Thanks. > > Tom von Trott > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:46:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Centipedes Just had a random thought about centipedes. Can you imagine the clatter all those wheels made on jointed rail? I'll bet a pair of them sounded like a couple of hundred cars were coming. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Centipedes Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:19:50 -0400 Or crossing a diamond! Probably helped cause insomnia to those residing around junctions! :P Ted -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com [mailto:NDBPRR@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 12:46 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Centipedes Just had a random thought about centipedes. Can you imagine the clatter all those wheels made on jointed rail? I'll bet a pair of them sounded like a couple of hundred cars were coming. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:44:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes In a message dated 4/15/2000 1:51:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: > Just had a random thought about centipedes. Can you imagine the clatter all > those wheels made on jointed rail? I'll bet a pair of them sounded like a > couple of hundred cars were coming. I would think that a good deal of the noise from a wheel crossing a jointed-rail joint comes from the vertical displacement of the components of the joint by the depressive force of the oncoming wheel, which happens before the wheel crosses the rail ends themselves. A two-axle truck crossing a joint would thus make four distinct noises: (1) joint depression, (2) first wheel crossing rail ends (completing the depression of the joint), (3) second wheel crossing rail ends (quieter, as the rails would now be vertically aligned), and (4) joint rebounding as weight of truck is removed. A Centipede would, with the close wheelbases between each of those many axles, make sound (1), sound (2), a whole bunch of the "quieter" sound (3)'s, and a final sound (4). So, a pair of Centipedes would be quieter than an A-B-B-A lashup of F's or FA's; this all akin to the R-1 vs. GG-1 discussion. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:58:06 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] centipede noises Hi all... I got to thinking about it and although they did'nt have as many wheels, the GG-1 would make a lot of noise going over switches and rail crossings. I also remember riding one where we hit a bad section of track (so the engineer said) and it made one hell of a noise. This was during PC years and the track was'nt anywhere where it had been during PRR years and current amtrak days. GG-1s were quiet outside,but noisy on the inside. You had to shout to be heard over the noise. Dad used to say that if the train ran smooth we were probably off the tracks. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:46:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] PA Update... Guys, This would be about right, but I look for delays in Laurel, MT, as well as in Tacoma, WA. Then there is the question of which RR will handle it into Albany, OR. If it is on the BN then it will come down from Vancouver, WA on the 663 which is a night run. If it comes through on the UP it might take 3 days to make the trip... 3^) UP is still having a tough time coming out of Portland, OR. They just need to figure out which way North and South really are... 3^) Greg Martin Harry Marnell writes: Subject: [ATSF] PA body shell update....Sat morning The ALCO PAs are on ATSF flats 94660 and 94604 (not 94606), on the H TPLLAU1 12 train, last reported passing Dalton NE at 07:58 this morning. ETA Albany, OR is Tuesday at 14:07. Harry Marnell http://www.snowcrest.net/marnells/sigalert.htm <~~ What's a SIGalert??? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:31:40 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Marker/class light position on Kiesel tenders Hello list, For my latest 130P75 tender (using as my starting point the Bowser "13000 gallon" tender), I decided to model the class or marker lights (I'm not sure which is the correct terminology) in their 1940s-50s position. Based on a thorough review of the Kiesel tender pictures in the Spring 1988 Keystone, the marker lights were shifted off the top of the tender deck starting in the early 40s. They were then typically placed just below the top of the cistern on the tender's rear wall. I came up with an imperfect solution for modelling this; any suggestions for my next tender are very welcome. The marker lights appear to be the old candlepin type (4 legs), with the legs cut off and mounted on a base that was connected to the rear wall of the tender. I had some Cary 13-106 PRR marker lights (candlepin type) on hand as leftovers from other projects. I used the pair that were intended for smokebox mounting, and bent the brass mounting pin to a perpendicular angle. I drilled a number 50 hole in the appropriate locations (in my case, two on each side and one off center), cleaned up, and super glued the markers in place. The inaccuracy lies in the retention of the candlepin base. My marker lights came out very sturdy, so I feel this is an acceptable compromise. For those of you with few or no moves in your near future, you could build up the mounting bracket from styrene and cut the bases off the marker lights. Cary's 13-165 high mount marker lights might work for that purpose. The other downside to my method is that you'll need two sets for each tender; nearly all Kiesel tenders appear to have had 3 marker lights (I think one had a while lens for use as a backup light) by the late 40s. Since most of the engines I model have the modern markers (Cary 13-159), I usually just stick the marker lights in the Bowser superdetail kits into the scrap box, which has left me with enough for one more tender...... Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:35:48 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Using a Dremel to remove tarnish from brass models Hello list, I have found yet another way to remove tarnish from brass models (or, perhaps, I've just reinvented the wheel). I wanted to polish the boiler and tender on my E5s prior to changing the markers and generator, but I don't own a sand blaster. I had previously stripped most of the lacquer off of the engine, but the boiler, being fairly old, had a fair amount of tarnish. I used the same metal-bristled wheel-shaped head that I use to polish the tread of Kadee wheelsets, and in short order, all of the tarnish I could reach was gone. I think sandblasting would still be a better solution; I'll have to do some hand work in nooks and crannies, but I'm pleased with the results so far. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PA Update... Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:47:36 -0500 You can track (trace) the progress of this shipment on the BNSF website- www.bnsf.com . Just enter the car initials: ATSF94660 Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 11:46 AM Subject: [PRR] PA Update... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:15:14 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR] Hi folks, I purchased a Bachman K4 1361 some months ago, and I am very happy with the engine. Compared to an older unit (in multi-stripe livery, I use it as a kind of fictive museum piece on the layout) it runs very well (the older one cannot handle many cars and is rather slippery on the rails). The drivers are some of the best reproduction I have seen in mass production models (the ones on the older unit are not very prototypical). Not being wealthy enough to go for brass, for me the new plastic steamers from Bachmann Spectrum or Athearn Genesis (I hardly dare to tell on the PRR-list that I own a Genesis 2-8-2 from B&O) are a big step ahead. I am sure you will enjoy the fine K4 engines. Regards Burkhard Sanner Lahnau, Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:09:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] SPRUCE Tower Location From: Jerry Britton This past weekend the family headed to State College, Pa., for my alma mater's annual spring football scrimmage. While the children behaved well for the tailgate, young Andrew (2) wasn't fond of the game...unless he was allowed to go onto the field! Being that it was just a scrimmage and that he was overdue for a nap, the Mrs. suggested we take a scenic drive as that always puts him to sleep. So, what for the unknowing passengers was just a scenic drive, was really a calculated excursion 26 miles down Route 45 to "Gee, I wonder where we are...oh, Spruce Creek!" ;-) About this time the young'n wakes up and says "Daddy, train tracks!" Realizing she had been "had", the Mrs. took a nap while Andrew and I went trackside. In 45 minutes, not a single train! Anyway, I'm questioning the location of SPRUCE Tower. Route 45 approaches from the south and comes parallel to the main line facing railroad west. The road is above the grade of the line and descends until it ducks under, then does a hairpin turn and parallels the line heading eastbound for about 500 yards, descending, until it takes a 9-degree left turn away from the rails and heads on towards State College. Within this left turn, there is a church between the road and the Little Juniata River. Across from this church, up on the hill along the RoW, I found a stone foundation/retaining wall about 15 feet long. I climbed up on top of the hill to take a look and there were also some concrete footers. The location and spacing from the tracks is about right for a tower. Was this the location of SPRUCE? Or was it closer to the tunnels so it just hung on the bank above the Little Juniata River? Beautiful area to see...especially on the first day of trout season (even though I don't fish). I think this was my fourth visit there. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:49:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Former PRR Main Activity By NS From: Jerry Britton Over the weekend I drove twice along Routes 11/15 between Cove (west of Enola) and VIEW (now CP CANNON) at Duncannon. All along the way, Norfolk Southern has bulldozed away a significant amount of growth between their right of way and the Susquehanna River. Even further west, as 11/15 crosses the Juniata, it looks like vegetation has been bulldozed away on the river side. Anyone know if they are planning to add trackage? (Perhaps they need more parking as trains wait to get into the yard!!!) Possibly related, a Sperry Rail Service car is in the siding at Duncannon. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:24:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Former PRR Main Activity By NS In a message dated 04/17/2000 09:55:43 Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Possibly related, a Sperry Rail Service car is in the siding at Duncannon. Jerry, If that is a rail grinder car, they may plan on dressing the railheads and do not want to start a brush fire from the sparks. Thus the removal of brush near the ROW. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Former PRR Main Activity By NS Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:50:20 -0400 Jerry, There is NO END to the speculation about this, including the suggestion that they are preparing for eventual "service roads" trackside when one-man crews become the norm. Of course, they already HAVE a service road between the tracks because of the elimination of one of the mains. Still, one can only imagine how THAT "explanation" affects the crews, what with everything else NS is forcing them to deal with because of the take-over. Interesting note... I, too, saw the bulldozing in question this past weekend. What you did NOT see is the same thing being done in the area of Coburn, PA, on the east slope of The Mountain (Horseshoe Curve). And it's taking place numerous other places as well, including near us on the Youngstown Line. Now, the installation of fibre optic cable is another possible explanation. But let's see what the List Members come up with! Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST ; Conrail-Talk LIST Date: Monday, April 17, 2000 10:24 AM Subject: [PRR] Former PRR Main Activity By NS >Over the weekend I drove twice along Routes 11/15 between Cove (west of >Enola) and VIEW (now CP CANNON) at Duncannon. > >All along the way, Norfolk Southern has bulldozed away a significant amount >of growth between their right of way and the Susquehanna River. Even further >west, as 11/15 crosses the Juniata, it looks like vegetation has been >bulldozed away on the river side. > >Anyone know if they are planning to add trackage? > >(Perhaps they need more parking as trains wait to get into the yard!!!) > >Possibly related, a Sperry Rail Service car is in the siding at Duncannon. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) > http://www.brasstrains.net >For Dealers and Manufacturers > http://www.modelrailroadnews.net > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Former PRR Main Activity By NS Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:52:11 -0400 No, Rich. It was a standard Sperry rail defect detector car ducked into the siding. -----Original Message----- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com To: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com ; conrail-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, April 17, 2000 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Former PRR Main Activity By NS >In a message dated 04/17/2000 09:55:43 Eastern Daylight Time, >jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > >> Possibly related, a Sperry Rail Service car is in the siding at Duncannon. >Jerry, > >If that is a rail grinder car, they may plan on dressing the railheads and do >not want to start a brush fire from the sparks. Thus the removal of brush >near the ROW. > >Rich Orr > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Former PRR Main Activity By NS From: Jerry Britton On 4/17/00 11:50 AM, W. Terry Stuart (tstuart@forcomm.net) wrote: > But let's see what the List Members come up with! > Maybe they plan to add parallel parking along the entire main! ;-) Also noticed some clearing was going on at the east end of the former Marysville Yard. Not much yet, however, and not yet in the area in front of the station, where railfans really need it to come down! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] General Interlocking Question Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:15:44 -0700 Thanks for the endorsement. My lever machine does have mechanical locking but the logic is electronic. John > ---------- > From: MarkCFry@aol.com[SMTP:MarkCFry@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 8:40 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] General Interlocking Question > > Questions were raised about interlockings, and I just came across a site > that > features an HO scale model railroad of Suburban Station, 30th Station and > Arsenal Interlocking. The modeler actually built a working lever machine > for > his layout, and gives some good information on the prototype and how he > built > his own version for his layout. The link is HREF="http://pweb.netcom.com/~johncoop/pt/cooper.htm">KC: John Cooper's > Philadelphia Terminal , or > http://pweb.netcom.com/~johncoop/pt/cooper.htm. Nice site. Check it out. > > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:30:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Interlocking Diagrams Sought -- VIEW, BANKS, ROCKVILLE From: Jerry Britton I am looking for interlocking diagrams for the following: VIEW, at Duncannon, Pa., preferably in the 1950's. BANKS, corrected into the 1950's, but not beyond. Mark Bej's site has a later version. ROCKVILLE, corrected into the 1950's, but not beyond. Mark Bej's site has a later version. Key recognition point is at the west end of the bridge, the EB freight main is on the same flyover as the two passenger mains. As it enters the bridge, there is a turnout which allowed traffic from the Marysville Yard to enter it at this location. It uses the same flyover as the WB freight main. Anyone know when Marysville Yard was torn up? There is a Don Wood photo of a Baldwin freight shark at Marysville. I think it was dated 1954. The yard is still visible and busy in the background. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:48:16 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: [PRR] Re: Re: Re: RF & P Interface [PRR][CR] "John Ryan, Jr." wrote on 4/4/00 1:39 pm: >It seems like I've seen pictues >of RF&P and/or ACL E's north >of Washington when GG-1's >were disabled by snow in air >intakes. I don't remember >where the pics were. They show up in most books on the history of the NEC; I have copies in Welsh's Florida streamliner book, Zimmerman's GG1 book (I thtnk), and a few more. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Diagrams Sought -- VIEW, BANKS, ROCKVILLE Date: Mon, 17 Apr 100 15:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Jerry Britton scribit: > > I am looking for interlocking diagrams for the following: > > VIEW, at Duncannon, Pa., preferably in the 1950's. > > BANKS, corrected into the 1950's, but not beyond. Mark Bej's site has a > later version. > > ROCKVILLE, corrected into the 1950's, but not beyond. Mark Bej's site has a > later version. Key recognition point is at the west end of the bridge, the > EB freight main is on the same flyover as the two passenger mains. As it > enters the bridge, there is a turnout which allowed traffic from the > Marysville Yard to enter it at this location. It uses the same flyover as > the WB freight main. Jerry, I have somewhere, in an ETT, a General Order that shows ROCKVILLE's "new" signaling arangement. New for that time - it is the arrangement that most of us recall it having, until Conrail's changes (mid-bridge signal bridge, etc.) in the 1980s. I will try to dig it out and scan it for you. One of those things I just have never quite gotten to. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:46:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] SPRUCE Tower Location Jerry. That was foundation work for the Passenger station area. SPRUCE was further east of there. If you recall you can see where you can drive up to the Rof W on the north side and travel a short distance and the road ends. >From there you had to walk to the tower from the west end on that side of the RR. Hope this helps. Pat McKinney Mof W Dept. Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:00:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] advertising Jerry & list - Just to prove we're all human Mainline Modeler, which I'm sure most of you read, made a small error in the new products ad in the April issue which is just out. This is not the Wilmington Delaware Station! 8-) Even though it is a prize winner it belongs to another Northeastern RR. However if you like it and it will fit your railroad Jerry can get it for you. Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Simpson" Subject: [PRR] Looking Around - and a CSX Question Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:45:03 -0500 Last Wednesday, I spent most of my morning between appointments looking around the Indianapolis area at railroad tracks - in particular, old Pennsy stuff. I found it quite interesting that the old Pennsy track west of downtown, heading west-southwest, is now designated QSC - and near Oliver and Warman is a CSX Classification Yard. The original Madison & Indianapolis, which somewhere south of downtown becomes a Louisville and Indiana Railroad track, is designated, not more than a block from my house, as QSL. I am still looking around, but no that the Pennsy line that ran along Kentucky Avenue is now gone, and the one that ran parallel to Washington Street on the Eastside is also no more. (I am comparing the current tracks to a map I have of Indianapolis from 1946 - I can't find my 1876 maps right now!) The question I have is this: is there ANYWHERE I can find out when trains are scheduled to run along the tracks near my house. Within a block of this very location is Milepost 6 on CSX Track QIB (the original Indianapolis Belt Railway) and Milepost 1.98 on CSX Track QSL (the Madison & Indianapolis). (BTW - there is nothing quite like the look on the face of a nine-year-old the first time he stands at the junction of two tracks, realizing that at one point in history the Pennsy ran up and down that line.) Any help would be appreciated. Richard McClelland Simpson III The Indiana Transportation Information Center http://www.oaktree.net/rsimpson3 In memory of Richard McClelland "Red" Simpson, Sr., Altoona, PA, former Pennsylvania Railroad Engineer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:01:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking Around - and a CSX Question In a message dated 00-04-17 20:50:02 EDT, you write: > The question I have is this: is there ANYWHERE I can find out when trains > are scheduled to run along the tracks near my house. Within a block of this > very location is Milepost 6 on CSX Track QIB (the original Indianapolis Belt > Railway) and Milepost 1.98 on CSX Track QSL (the Madison & Indianapolis). Any CSXT employee using the computer network could call up this info. I can bring up schedules for the Columbus line, someone who knows the terminal milepost designations for trains that run over those lines could find it. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:48:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Using a Dremel to remove tarnish from brass models From: Michael Allen Neat idea and I will endorse from experience. When I was in OCS I used a Dremel with a buffing wheel on my uniform brass. The TAC officer hated it but he couldn't find a reg that said the stuff had to be shined by hand. MEA On Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:35:48 -0500 "doug.kisala" writes: > Hello list, > > I have found yet another way to remove tarnish from brass models > (or, > perhaps, I've just reinvented the wheel). I wanted to polish the > boiler > and tender on my E5s prior to changing the markers and generator, > but I > don't own a sand blaster. I had previously stripped most of the > lacquer > off of the engine, but the boiler, being fairly old, had a fair > amount > of tarnish. I used the same metal-bristled wheel-shaped head that I > use > to polish the tread of Kadee wheelsets, and in short order, all of > the > tarnish I could reach was gone. > > I think sandblasting would still be a better solution; I'll have to > do > some hand work in nooks and crannies, but I'm pleased with the > results > so far. > > Doug > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Former PRR Main Activity By NS From: Michael Allen Some of my own speculation here and a question. 1. The Question - Since most of the ROW is already accessible by service road why would special new ones be required for a reduction of crew size? 2. My guess would be that this is part of a good normal maintenance program. eliminating the brush will help the drainage of the track structure. From a track supervisor's standpoint the biggest problem [aside from bean counters who don't give you enough money to fix things] in track maintenance is water that won't go away and turns the substructure into mud which causes the ballast to foul and sink and the track to slide and dip and ties to rot and , well, you get the idea, or worse yet goes away too fast in one place and takes track with it. There is also the fact that during fire season the brush along the track represents an increased fire risk and every time that MOW or Forestry or Municipal Fire crews are dispatched to a fire along the track, trains through the area have to either be halted or proceed at restricted speed and this presents an operating headache that NS just doesn't need. MEA __________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen, Managing Partner meallen@juno.com W.R. ALLEN Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:50:20 -0400 "W. Terry Stuart" writes: > Jerry, > > There is NO END to the speculation about this, including the suggestion that > they are preparing for eventual "service roads" trackside when one-man crews > become the norm. Of course, they already HAVE a service road between the > tracks because of the elimination of one of the mains. Still, one can only > imagine how THAT "explanation" affects the crews, what with everything else > NS is forcing them to deal with because of the take-over. > Interesting note... I, too, saw the bulldozing in question this past weekend. What you did NOT see is the same thing being done in the area of Coburn, PA, on the east slope of The Mountain (Horseshoe Curve). > And it's taking place numerous other places as well, including near us on the Youngstown Line. > > Now, the installation of fibre optic cable is another possible > explanation. > > But let's see what the List Members come up with! > > Terry Stuart > The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B > 62 Beaver Street > Fallston, PA 15066 > www.forcomm.net/flagstop > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Britton > To: PRR-Talk LIST ; Conrail-Talk LIST > > Date: Monday, April 17, 2000 10:24 AM > Subject: [PRR] Former PRR Main Activity By NS > > > >Over the weekend I drove twice along Routes 11/15 between Cove > (west of > >Enola) and VIEW (now CP CANNON) at Duncannon. > > > >All along the way, Norfolk Southern has bulldozed away a > significant amount > >of growth between their right of way and the Susquehanna River. > Even > further > >west, as 11/15 crosses the Juniata, it looks like vegetation has > been > >bulldozed away on the river side. > > > >Anyone know if they are planning to add trackage? > > > >(Perhaps they need more parking as trains wait to get into the > yard!!!) > > > >Possibly related, a Sperry Rail Service car is in the siding at > Duncannon. > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. > >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) > > http://www.brasstrains.net > >For Dealers and Manufacturers > > http://www.modelrailroadnews.net > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] Model RR Interlockings - a little long Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:02:50 -0500 I would like to let you all know about some ideas I have for building model interlockings. Last week, I asked some questions regarding how Interlockings work. This message will show how I plan to put those workings into practice on a model railroad. In my line of work, I have programmed Programmable Logic Controllers (PLCs), and developed operator interfaces on a PC screen. Basically, signals, switch motors, and track detector circuits would be wired to the PLC. The computer screens would have graphic images to show signal aspects, block occupancies, and switch positions. The interlocking levers would also be graphic images, to be manipulated with the mouse. The amount of inputs and outputs (I/O) to the PLC has to be counted to estimate the cost of the PLC. For example, a turnout would require 1 digital output (DO) and 2 digital inputs (DI). When the DO is ON, the turnout is wired to be in the straight position. With the DO OFF, the turnout is diverging. The 2 DI or for the limit switches to get positive feedback for turnout position. Signals also require DO. A 5 position signal would require 4 DO. With no outputs, the signal displays stop. With 1 DO ON, the first aspect displayed. With 2 DO ON, the second is displayed, and so on. As far as track detectors are concerned, most DCC compatible circuits I've seen consist of an opto-isolator. A PLC input is essentially an opto-isolator, so track detectors won't require much more circuitry, keeping their cost down. Smaller and smaller PLCs keep hitting the market. Right now, I think the aggregate cost for an I/O point is $6-7. That is, add up the costs of all the pieces required for the PLC, and divide by the number of I/O. This $6-7 cost is for about 400 I/O points and up. The cost per point rises as the I/O count falls below 400 because the fixed costs (Processor, Power supply, Chassis, etc.) is amortized over fewer I/O points. As far as operator interface, there are many ready-made programs available for the industrial world. However, I think even the lowest cost ones are too expensive to be considered for use on a model railroad. I plan to use Visual Basic to develop my own interface. For the programmers out there, I plan to build ActiveX controls to represent the graphic symbols I need. These building blocks can then be used to easily develop the screens. Most PLC manufacturers offer a communication driver that allows PLC to Visual Basic communication. The actual control logic would be programmed with PLC ladder logic. Based on turnout position, lever position, etc, the program would deterimine the proper signal aspects to display. The levers on screen could also be locked out, depending on conditions. A program printout looks like a wiring diagram, so with a little training, it is fairly easy for someone to look at it and see what is going on. Now that I've made my case for using a PLC, I'd like to know how that compares to something like Chubb's system. Does anybody have an estimate for cost per point? Keep in mind I am looking for something assembled and ready to go. I want to spend my time programming and experimenting, not assembling circuit boards. I already have the knowledge and skill to use PLCs, but what is the learning curve for Chubb's system like? I can probably get my hands on an older PLC from work, so I plan to build a simple interlocking to test my ideas. Something like MG comes to mind. Eventually, I'd like to determine the feasibility of using PLCs on a medium to large layout. So I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions for the PLC idea. Thanks, Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:10:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Interlockings From: Fred G Rea There has been much talk re mechanical interlockings. The Coshocton OH RR club has a fantastic layout at their county fairgrounds. The own two old interlocking plants. One is in pieces out side, the other is in use on their layout. Yes, full 1'=1' mechanical armstrong system. They have a junction that follows the track diagram of their plant. When an operator wants to cleat a route he turns and pulls all the necessary levers in the proper order. The massive clunking sound is fantastic. I visited it during an NMRA open house. I don't know any members but maybe some on the list knows the times when one might visit it. I think one of the plants is the from the old T&OC/Panhandle(joint B&O-PRR) jct in Hebron OH. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:59:56 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Model RR Interlockings - a little long Andy, I built the Chubb system back in 1993, more or less. A serial interface card, 2 in and 2-output cards (24 points each), 12 Cab Relay cards filled for 3 cabs out of 7 max per block, and 12 OD detector cards, plus mother boards, ran about $1000. I bought the cards from Bruce and the components from various sources. At the time I got a good quantity price break on the card order; I think the threshholds have risen a bit since then. Learning the system is not difficult, but I recommend buying both the latest version of the original book and the Chubb's Railroader's Update. It is a cookbook project - follow the directions, and it will work. You will also find various ways to be extremely creative with the system, and it will support them. It is also vertually unlimited in size capabilities. Since you already have considerable ability in the microprocessor field, you have viable choices and may decide the PIC approach is more cost effective. I did mot feel capable of inventing a system myself, and have been very happy with Chubb's. Regarding the computer to use with the system, even a 4 MHz PC will work, but I was given a 486DX with Win 95 after my 286's hard drive self-destructed, and am having a blast with its capabilities. Check out http://www.onelist.com/community/CMRI_Users Steve Bartlett Subject: Model RR Interlockings - a little long From: "Andy Cich" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:02:50 -0500 I would like to let you all know about some ideas I have for building model interlockings. ............................ Now that I've made my case for using a PLC, I'd like to know how that compares to something like Chubb's system. Does anybody have an estimate for cost per point? Keep in mind I am looking for something assembled and ready to go. I want to spend my time programming and experimenting, not assembling circuit boards. I already have the knowledge and skill to use PLCs, but what is the learning curve for Chubb's system like? I can probably get my hands on an older PLC from work, so I plan to build a simple interlocking to test my ideas. Something like MG comes to mind. Eventually, I'd like to determine the feasibility of using PLCs on a medium to large layout. So I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions for the PLC idea. Thanks, Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:30:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Eratta re interlockings From: Fred G Rea Oops, the T&OC-Panhandle interlocking was in Heath not Hebron OH. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:05:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Zoo Tower Dimensions Hello fellow Pennsy Fans, I am interested in scratchbuilding an "HO" Model of Zoo Tower in Philadelphia, Pa. and was wondering if anyone has the outside dimensions of the tower. The dimensions of Pennsy Towers were alot of times given on the track diagrams published by the railroad for that particular tower. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find one for "Zoo". Any help would be great. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:49:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Larry Reynolds' Layout From: Jerry Britton I've posted 12 pics to Larry Reynolds' layout page. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/ I have more in the camera yet, including some from Ken McCorry's expansion. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:02:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Staron Subject: [PRR] Interlockings The Coshocton model railroad is located on the fairgrounds in Coshocton Ohio on Seventh Street. It’s the only blue building on the fair grounds and having a nickel plate and a pennsy cabin cars flanking the front door helps in finding it for those that might be color blind, appropriate operating signals for these car flank their rails, a aid for those at night. Every Friday night most of the crew will be there and most weekends’ arrangements can be made to be open for travelers. The Ohio Central shops are near by at Morgan Run. (4 miles) The operating interlocking plant (32 lever and 6 pistol grip) is out of Morgan tower near Quincy Ohio where the D.T&I crossed the C.C.C.&St L it’s complete and operates as it did when Conrail closed this tower in the 80’s . The heath interlocking tower is where the B&O crossed the panhandle and is also complete but stored in are building for future use. .It I believe is it’s a 36? Lever and 36? pistol grip plant . The club is also open the first week of Oct for the county fair The trains run from 10 to 10 for seven days a big operating time for us as a club we also run a train trip on the OC late in Oct as a fund raiser. If any one is in the area stop by. Dan Staron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:13:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Vegetation along tracks In a message dated 4/17/00 11:07:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << All along the way, Norfolk Southern has bulldozed away a significant amount of growth between their right of way and the Susquehanna River. Even further west, as 11/15 crosses the Juniata, it looks like vegetation has been bulldozed away on the river side. >> Over here at the Rutherford yard area, NS is planting trees at a great clip all along Derry Street. Grrrr. Now where's that chain saw.... George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:26:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Ohio Central (B&O/PRR Lines West) and T&OC (NYC System) In a message dated 4/18/2000 12:44:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << I think one of the plants is the from the old T&OC/Panhandle(joint B&O-PRR) jct in Hebron OH. >> Fred, I'll definitely look this up when next in the area. Meantime, I'm slightly confused by the above. Did Hebron OH ever have a crossing/interlocking? My SPV map shows Hebron OH to be on the Toledo & Ohio Central north of Thurston, thus on the "Eastern Branch" as the New York Central called it. This town never (?) had another railroad. Or was this interlocking really from a plant named HEATH in the town of Heath OH, where the crossing described above was located? The Buckeye Division 1968 timetable shows the crossing of the NYC (T&OC) with the joint B&O/PRR main to be named HEATH, at about MP 162 from Pittsburgh. HEATH was an interlocking and a block station in 1968. _____________________________________________________________ Incidentally, this neck of the woods can get confusing from a railroad history point of view. At HEATH, we literally have a crossing of the Ohio Central and the Toledo & Ohio Central. Ohio Central is the ancestral name of B&O's Columbus & Newark Division, which has also hosted the Panhandle's main since the 1860's. Toledo & Ohio Central was the 1920's surviving name of railroads with names like Kanawha & Michigan and Columbus, Scioto & Hocking Valley. These roads once formed a coal road from a mining district southeast of Charleston WV, coming north to about Grogan Yard, Columbus OH. Sometime after 1893, these roads lost their friendly connection to Lake Erie, when it became the PRR's Sandusky Branch, dedicated to moving N&W coal north out of Columbus. Eventually, the T&OC became part of the NYC Lines, and its Eastern Branch was extended from Thurston OH through Hebron, Heath, Bucyrus, and Fostoria on its way to Stanley Yard, Toledo OH. This still left the T&OC's friendless line into Columbus, which toured the east and north sides of Columbus only to terminate next to hostile PRR and N&W yards. At a time I haven't yet determined, the Western Branch sprouted from this stub at a village called Truro, circumnavigated the south and west sides of Columbus (with a station just south of SCIOTO Tower), and proceeded northwest out of Columbus on its way to Toledo. PFtW&C fans will recognize this T&OC Western Branch as the line that crosses the Pittsburg-Chicago main at Dunkirk OH. This was a more modern right-of-way, suitable for heavy coal traffic, and is still in use, carrying traffic to exk-NYC Stanley Yard. I believe this is the line that got NYC's first CTC installation, in 1927. I hope I've got the above history of the Toledo & Ohio Central approximately correct - I'm running a little in advance of my resources on some of this. Anyway, the result of all this history was the Eastern Branch, the Western Branch, and track that went three fourths of the way around downtown Columbus. Also, we might want to note that while most of the NYC track in central Ohio was identified as Big Four (CCC&StL), the T&OC was a separate company structure under NYC Lines control. Finally, I mentioned NYC/T&OC component Columbus Scioto and Hocking Valley. This should not be confused with the nearby C&O lines, which were once named the Hocking Valley. The Hocking Valley connected coal fields along the Hocking River in southern Ohio with Columbus (Parsons Yard), and was extended from Columbus to Toledo as a really heavy-duly double track main. This extension crossed the PRR Little Miami at SCIOTO, southwest of Columbus Union Station (SCIOTO's other name was LM Tower). Exiting Columbus up the Olentangy River, the extension took the C&O/HV through Marion OH and crossed the PFtW&C at Upper Sandusky. From Fostoria north, this C&O extension and the T&OC Eastern Branch played tag into Toledo. Hope this makes some sense..... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:37:47 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Marysville Yard From: Jerry Britton Does anyone know when Marysville Yard, just north of Enola, was torn up? I've seen a Don Wood photo of freight sharks heading east with the yard in the background to the right...still active. While I don't need an exact year, I do need to know if it made it through 1954. I believe it did. For some reason, I seem to recall someone telling me that there was a "rail mill" there -- perhaps after the yard? -- before the rail mill at Lucknow was built in Harrisburg. Can anyone add to this? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:44:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] REPLY to Advertising FOLKS, My Error! My collumn, I wrote it, I screwed it up! I admit it. MY FALT... 3^) Sorry Dayna, Sorry ALL... I have not been at my computer much, I am preparing some models for the John Thompson's Northwest Santa Fe meet in Kent, WA. I would have appologized earlier. Now back to spelling lessons and typing class. I know, I know excuses are like... 3^) Forgive me all... Greg Martin Salem, OR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:25:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? I'm trying to find out which GG1s Baldwin built and which did Juniata build? I've looked on the various webpages but haven't seen anything there. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? Rick, Baldwin appearently had the help in building locos 4815-4839.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? Rick, And GG-1 #4800 Sorry for the deletion. ...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:34:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? Thanks for the info. However, I'm still a bit confused. Were there three builders of GG1s? General Electric, Baldwin and PRR-Juniata? There were also two suppliers of electrical equipment- GE and Westinghouse. What I am trying to learn is which builder built which units, and what make of electrical equipment did they incorporate into their creations. Obviously a GE built GG1 would have GE electrical equipment, but what about the others. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? Rick, Too complicated to list it all. If someone has the soft cover book "The Remarkable GG-1" and a scanner, maybe they can scan the inside back page and share that info with this list. Like you say, obviously GE parts are in locos GE helped build and Westinghouse Parts are in the locos which Westinghouse helped build- (Is this correct?). In the Baldwin Built locos, most of these recieved mostly Westinghouse parts. 5 Baldwin locos recieved GE parts 4817, 4818, 4821, 4831, and 4837. Hopefully someone can scan that page and share that info with you.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:54:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? I have a copy of the book, but it doesn't explain which units were built by whom. My purpose in asking the question is to find out if all the variations have been preserved. With this info. in hand I could examine the preserved Gs and see if I could find any construction technique differences among the various builders. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] GG-1 How many GG-1's are still around? Did any of the Pennsy's T-1"s survive? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:18:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Staron Subject: Re: [PRR] Ohio Central (B&O/PRR Lines West) and T&OC (NYC System) the "Heath interlocking plant" was located about one mile south of route 16 off Cherry Blossam road which is just west of the city of Heath. On most maps heath and the city of Newark run together. A good good picture of this tower is located at http://www.internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/B&O-Towers/B&O-Heath-OH.htm Today the Ohio Central runs a round trip to Buckeye Yard past where the tower stood daily and the CSX local runs locals intermittley --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/18/2000 12:44:58 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > fredrea@juno.com writes: > > << I think one of the plants is the from the old > T&OC/Panhandle(joint > B&O-PRR) jct in Hebron OH. >> > > Fred, > I'll definitely look this up when next in the area. > Meantime, I'm slightly > confused by the above. Did Hebron OH ever have a > crossing/interlocking? My > SPV map shows Hebron OH to be on the Toledo & Ohio > Central north of Thurston, > thus on the "Eastern Branch" as the New York Central > called it. This town > never (?) had another railroad. > > Or was this interlocking really from a plant named > HEATH in the town of Heath > OH, where the crossing described above was located? > The Buckeye Division > 1968 timetable shows the crossing of the NYC (T&OC) > with the joint B&O/PRR > main to be named HEATH, at about MP 162 from > Pittsburgh. HEATH was an > interlocking and a block station in 1968. > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Incidentally, this neck of the woods can get > confusing from a railroad > history point of view. At HEATH, we literally have > a crossing of the Ohio > Central and the Toledo & Ohio Central. Ohio Central > is the ancestral name of > B&O's Columbus & Newark Division, which has also > hosted the Panhandle's main > since the 1860's. > > Toledo & Ohio Central was the 1920's surviving name > of railroads with names > like Kanawha & Michigan and Columbus, Scioto & > Hocking Valley. These roads > once formed a coal road from a mining district > southeast of Charleston WV, > coming north to about Grogan Yard, Columbus OH. > Sometime after 1893, these > roads lost their friendly connection to Lake Erie, > when it became the PRR's > Sandusky Branch, dedicated to moving N&W coal north > out of Columbus. > Eventually, the T&OC became part of the NYC Lines, > and its Eastern Branch was > extended from Thurston OH through Hebron, Heath, > Bucyrus, and Fostoria on its > way to Stanley Yard, Toledo OH. > > This still left the T&OC's friendless line into > Columbus, which toured the > east and north sides of Columbus only to terminate > next to hostile PRR and > N&W yards. At a time I haven't yet determined, the > Western Branch sprouted > from this stub at a village called Truro, > circumnavigated the south and west > sides of Columbus (with a station just south of > SCIOTO Tower), and proceeded > northwest out of Columbus on its way to Toledo. > PFtW&C fans will recognize > this T&OC Western Branch as the line that crosses > the Pittsburg-Chicago main > at Dunkirk OH. This was a more modern right-of-way, > suitable for heavy coal > traffic, and is still in use, carrying traffic to > exk-NYC Stanley Yard. I > believe this is the line that got NYC's first CTC > installation, in 1927. > > I hope I've got the above history of the Toledo & > Ohio Central approximately > correct - I'm running a little in advance of my > resources on some of this. > Anyway, the result of all this history was the > Eastern Branch, the Western > Branch, and track that went three fourths of the way > around downtown > Columbus. Also, we might want to note that while > most of the NYC track in > central Ohio was identified as Big Four (CCC&StL), > the T&OC was a separate > company structure under NYC Lines control. > > Finally, I mentioned NYC/T&OC component Columbus > Scioto and Hocking Valley. > This should not be confused with the nearby C&O > lines, which were once named > the Hocking Valley. The Hocking Valley connected > coal fields along the > Hocking River in southern Ohio with Columbus > (Parsons Yard), and was extended > from Columbus to Toledo as a really heavy-duly > double track main. This > extension crossed the PRR Little Miami at SCIOTO, > southwest of Columbus Union > Station (SCIOTO's other name was LM Tower). Exiting > Columbus up the > Olentangy River, the extension took the C&O/HV > through Marion OH and crossed > the PFtW&C at Upper Sandusky. From Fostoria north, > this C&O extension and > the T&OC Eastern Branch played tag into Toledo. > > Hope this makes some sense..... > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially > PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Quads? I remember when the GG-1 was open to walk through at the Altoona RR museum. On a later trip I found it was closed to the public. One of the museum workers told me that it had been vandalized and the " Quads" were stolen. I felt dumb because I had no clue what he was talking about. Can anyone help? Mark. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:27:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cadiz branch From: Fred G Rea Well, after botching Hebron vs Heath, let me try a new topic: Does the OC still haul coal from the Cadiz OH area to the big AEP plant in Conesville? If it does, will this continue after the Glouster-Conesville operations begin this Summer? These are not off topic, all are old PRR lines. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? Rick, List, I just recieved this incoming email from a "reader" of PRR-Talk. This is a viewpoint on your question. (No snips or editing) Gary: "For reasons far too complex to explain, I can read the PRR postings but can't reply so I will write to you and you can forward to the list if you choose. The various GG-1 groups were built by GE, Baldwin, Altoona, Westinghouse etc. as listed in the various books on the subject. Other than the very first group assembled in Erie, I believe final assembly to just about all the rest was done in Altoona with carbodies and or running gear coming from Baldwin. But the real info I wish to impart is that which I learned while working at Erie GE. The Gs were built in the days prior to the big anti-trust suit against GE and Westinghouse over price fixing. Hence, if GE and Westinghouse each had say 50% of this or that relay, the two companies would trade off the orders and GE would build 100% of a certain relay but put Westinghouse badge plates on 50% of the product. Westinghouse would reciprocate by putting GE badge plates on the stuff they built." (end email) This was from an unknown author!..........Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:25:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? In a message dated 00-04-19 22:15:18 EDT, you write: > But the real info I wish to impart is that which I learned while working > at Erie GE. The Gs were built in the days prior to the big anti-trust > suit against GE and Westinghouse over price fixing. Hence, if GE and > Westinghouse each had say 50% of this or that relay, the two companies > would trade off the orders and GE would build 100% of a certain relay > but put Westinghouse badge plates on 50% of the product. Westinghouse > would reciprocate by putting GE badge plates on the stuff they built." > (end email) > So basically there would probably be little difference in the electrical systems of the various GG1s, and I should expect to find an assortment of Westinghouse and GE parts in the later units. I wonder if this will hold true on an inspection of the surviving units. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:53:45 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1 Mark, list, In short, 14 GG-1s escaped the torch. Sadly, no T1 engines made it past 1956. Doug Mark Lehman wrote: > How many GG-1's are still around? Did any of the Pennsy's T-1"s survive? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:57:45 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? Rick, list, According to the new book Pennsy Electric Pictorial, by Zak and Withers, 4800 (originally 4899) GE 4801-4814 GE 4815-4928 Juniata Electrical equipment could be from GE or Westinghouse. Doug BigHookX45@aol.com wrote: > I'm trying to find out which GG1s Baldwin built and which did Juniata build? > I've looked on the various webpages but haven't seen anything there. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks. > > Rick > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:01:47 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? Gary, Rick, list, On page 51 of Pennsy Electric Pictorial is their GG1 roster. The following GG1s received Westinghouse electrical equipment: 4815, 4816, 4819-21, 4823-27, 4829, 4830, 4832-4836, 4838-4848, 4850-4854, 4857, 4861, 4863, 4865-4870, 4872, 4874, 4876, 4877, 4879, 4883, 4885, 4888, 4889-4909 (odd numbers only), 4910, 4913-4925 (odd numbers only), 4926, 4928-31, 4933, 4937. All other motors had GE electrical equipment. Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > Rick, > > Too complicated to list it all. If someone has the soft cover book > "The Remarkable GG-1" and a scanner, maybe they can scan the inside > back page and share that info with this list. Like you say, obviously GE > parts are in locos GE helped build and Westinghouse Parts are in the > locos which Westinghouse helped build- (Is this correct?). In the > Baldwin Built locos, most of these recieved mostly Westinghouse parts. > 5 Baldwin locos recieved GE parts 4817, 4818, 4821, 4831, and 4837. > Hopefully someone can scan that page and share that info with > you.....Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:10:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steam Locomotive sighting Folks, Something really exciting happened to me today. I was working late (around 7:30 pm) at my desk when I heard a train running through the Rutherford yard (across Derry Street) from my office (200-300 yards away). I glanced out my window and saw 2 NS black diesels headed west (towards Harrisburg). Behind the engines were 3 flatcars. On the flatcars were a "madison -type" coach, then a tender (tuscan with smudged or rusted lettering that I couldn't make out), followed by a steam locomotive (also badly rusted). I was so surprised that I didn't get the wheel arrangement before it partially disappeared behind some buildings. However, the engine appeared to be relatively short in length. Has anybody heard anything about any steam locomotives on their way to be restored or, heaven forbid, scrapped? Best wishes, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Who Built Which GG1s? Rick, I suspect that would be the case....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam Locomotive sighting Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 03:08:05 -0400 George: May have been CPR Hudson #2839; check Chaski WWW Railfan board for details. http://www.chaski.com/wwwboard/railfan/index.html Paul S. -----Original Message----- From: GPandelios@aol.com [SMTP:GPandelios@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 12:11 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Steam Locomotive sighting Folks, Something really exciting happened to me today. I was working late (around 7:30 pm) at my desk when I heard a train running through the Rutherford yard (across Derry Street) from my office (200-300 yards away). I glanced out my window and saw 2 NS black diesels headed west (towards Harrisburg). Behind the engines were 3 flatcars. On the flatcars were a "madison -type" coach, then a tender (tuscan with smudged or rusted lettering that I couldn't make out), followed by a steam locomotive (also badly rusted). I was so surprised that I didn't get the wheel arrangement before it partially disappeared behind some buildings. However, the engine appeared to be relatively short in length. Has anybody heard anything about any steam locomotives on their way to be restored or, heaven forbid, scrapped? Best wishes, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 06:16:46 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Locomotive sighting George: I saw the same train. I was at the local lumberyard, picking up some blue foam for use on the layout. The time was about 4: PM, Emmaus, PA. My view was through a large garage door, so it was very brief. I didn't see the coach, only the tender and the engine. The engine was without lagging and very rusty. Didn't get to see the wheel arrangement either. It's been a long time since steam rode through that main. Too bad those days are gone. Larry GPandelios@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > > Something really exciting happened to me today. I was working late (around > 7:30 pm) at my desk when I heard a train running through the Rutherford yard > (across Derry Street) from my office (200-300 yards away). > > I glanced out my window and saw 2 NS black diesels headed west (towards > Harrisburg). Behind the engines were 3 flatcars. On the flatcars were a > "madison -type" coach, then a tender (tuscan with smudged or rusted lettering > that I couldn't make out), followed by a steam locomotive (also badly > rusted). I was so surprised that I didn't get the wheel arrangement before > it partially disappeared behind some buildings. However, the engine appeared > to be relatively short in length. > > Has anybody heard anything about any steam locomotives on their way to be > restored or, heaven forbid, scrapped? > > Best wishes, > > George > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil Subject: [PRR] PRR freight car modeling Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:11:32 -0700 Hi folks, I hope you are all as psyched as I am about the convention! I also hope to see you there talking modeling subjects. Speaking of which... I was wondering who out there is working on their PRR freight car fleets? Are there any of you stuck on models of PRR flats and gondolas? Granted, we are looking good on pre-war boxes, and several classes of hoppers, but how many of you are working on models of post-war cars? What are you working on? If you have time to answer a few questions, I'd appreciate it! Other than the F30a (done by Sunshine and Bowser), what other PRR flats have been made (in any medium)? Is the brass F31a a decent model? Is anyone working on converting the Walthers or Tichy Commonwealth flats into an accurate F41 or F41b? Does anyone know when the long-awaited brass PRR flats are due in, and how much $??? Has, or is, anyone other than Champ, producing decals for any PRR flats? Are there others that can be used? How about PRR gons? Other than the G22/25/27/29, are there others being made? Is anyone working on post-war gons? Coil Hoods? Skids? 3-piece removable roofs? Decals? Any good kitbashes? Does anyone know much about some of the other special-use gons and flats? Were you intrigued by the gon photos in the latest Keystone? Is there a reason that no one speculated about their usage? Did they look to you like photos taken during their conversion to oversized tank-head movement (like from Lukens?)? Does anyone know anything about the oversized plate steel loading gons like the G36k (or L?) series? I am working on some of this, but would love to hear from others with similar interests! Drop me a line. Also hope to meet some of you at the convention. Thanks, Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:26:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR freight car modeling From: Jerry Britton On 4/20/00 1:11 PM, egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil (egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil) wrote: > Other than the F30a (done by Sunshine and Bowser), what other PRR flats > have been made (in any medium)? F-3x series due any time from Rail Works (brass). See the Merchandise Service site (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) for exact configurations. F-38 announced from Rail Classics (brass). > Is the brass F31a a decent model? Is > anyone working on converting the Walthers or Tichy Commonwealth flats into > an accurate F41 or F41b? Does anyone know when the long-awaited brass PRR > flats are due in, and how much $??? See above. Prices for the Rail Works units are listed in the eStore. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: [PRR] CPR 2839 move Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:59:17 -0400 Listers: Here is link to discussion on sale and movement. http://www.chaski.com/wwwboard/railfan/messages/13477.html According to descriptions posted on this list, engine may look worse for wear than is admitted to in discussion on RailfanWWW board. Paul S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR freight car modeling Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:19:31 -0400 Elden, A few answers in no particular order... Other gondola kits: GR & G39 ore jennys from Funaro & Camerlengo GRa from Westerfield G30 from F&C (I think Sunshine discontinued theirs) G26 from Eastern Car Works, G24 - USRA composite gon, Intermountain and LifeLike both make the composite side version (not decorated for PRR though) Intermountain is suppsedly doing it in PRR with replacement steel sides but hasn't announced anything yet... GS & GSh from F&C and Bowser Other flat cars I can think of are the Walthers F39's and FM's by Sunshine and Funaro & Camerlengo. Someone also makes a G29 as a wood & metal kit.. The Middle Division makes F39 decals. The Railworks flats should be out sometime in the next month or two... Prices from The Caboose for these are: R-251 F-33, well, w/3f-f4 trucks, FP, $137 R-252 F-34, steel w/ 4 4-wheel tks, UP, $125 R-253 F-35, steel, deprsd ctr, w/3f-f4 trks, FP, $137 R-254 F-36, steel w/ 3f-f4 tks, UP, $125 R-255 F-37, steel well hole, UP, $132 R-255-1 F-37B, steel well hole, UP, $132 As for the Rail Classics F38, price and availability still are unknown (to me at least!..) Some of this and more is on my web page at http://prr.railfan.net/freight Rob -----Original Message----- From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, April 20, 2000 1:17 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR freight car modeling >Hi folks, I hope you are all as psyched as I am about the convention! I >also hope to see you there talking modeling subjects. Speaking of which... > I was wondering who out there is working on their PRR freight car fleets? >Are there any of you stuck on models of PRR flats and gondolas? Granted, we >are looking good on pre-war boxes, and several classes of hoppers, but how >many of you are working on models of post-war cars? What are you working >on? If you have time to answer a few questions, I'd appreciate it! > Other than the F30a (done by Sunshine and Bowser), what other PRR flats >have been made (in any medium)? Is the brass F31a a decent model? Is >anyone working on converting the Walthers or Tichy Commonwealth flats into >an accurate F41 or F41b? Does anyone know when the long-awaited brass PRR >flats are due in, and how much $??? Has, or is, anyone other than Champ, >producing decals for any PRR flats? Are there others that can be used? > How about PRR gons? Other than the G22/25/27/29, are there others being >made? Is anyone working on post-war gons? Coil Hoods? Skids? 3-piece >removable roofs? Decals? Any good kitbashes? Does anyone know much about >some of the other special-use gons and flats? Were you intrigued by the gon >photos in the latest Keystone? Is there a reason that no one speculated >about their usage? Did they look to you like photos taken during their >conversion to oversized tank-head movement (like from Lukens?)? Does anyone >know anything about the oversized plate steel loading gons like the G36k (or >L?) series? > I am working on some of this, but would love to hear from others with >similar interests! Drop me a line. Also hope to meet some of you at the >convention. Thanks, >Elden > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:54:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cadiz branch Fred, Yes, OC is still running a dayly coal train of about 54 ex-BN high-sided coal gons to & from the Cadiz area. What is so special about the train, is that OC runs their red caboose in the middle of the train, and locos on both ends. At Cadiz, the train splits at the caboose. One part without the caboose goes engines first into the mine branch line because there are run around tracks, allowing the locos to escape being trapped and to do the switching. The other part with the caboose goes to a different mine, caboose first for safety. The Eastbound empty passes thru Dennison, OH at about 1:00 PM, which is when I schedule my lunch. Regards, Dennis Sautters In a message dated Wed, 19 Apr 2000 7:30:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Fred G Rea writes: > Well, after botching Hebron vs Heath, let me try a new topic: > > Does the OC still haul coal from the Cadiz OH area to the big AEP plant > in Conesville? If it does, will this continue after the > Glouster-Conesville operations begin this Summer? > > These are not off topic, all are old PRR lines. > > Fred Rea > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cadiz branch Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:10:08 -0400 Dennis and the list: I know that this might by slightly (or completely) pff subject, but what types of engines and caboose are on this train? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 2:54 PM To: fredrea@juno.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Cadiz branch Fred, Yes, OC is still running a dayly coal train of about 54 ex-BN high-sided coal gons to & from the Cadiz area. What is so special about the train, is that OC runs their red caboose in the middle of the train, and locos on both ends. At Cadiz, the train splits at the caboose. One part without the caboose goes engines first into the mine branch line because there are run around tracks, allowing the locos to escape being trapped and to do the switching. The other part with the caboose goes to a different mine, caboose first for safety. The Eastbound empty passes thru Dennison, OH at about 1:00 PM, which is when I schedule my lunch. Regards, Dennis Sautters In a message dated Wed, 19 Apr 2000 7:30:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Fred G Rea writes: > Well, after botching Hebron vs Heath, let me try a new topic: > > Does the OC still haul coal from the Cadiz OH area to the big AEP plant > in Conesville? If it does, will this continue after the > Glouster-Conesville operations begin this Summer? > > These are not off topic, all are old PRR lines. > > Fred Rea > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:52:56 -0400 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] Northern Region ETT Can anyone tell me the correct number for the Northern Region ETT that covers the period of Fall 1956 through Summer 1957? Would anyone have one of these for sale or be willing to make photocopies? Please contact me if off line if you do. Thanks. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 Modeling the Elmira Branch circa 1956-57 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Box" Subject: [PRR] Bell mounting question Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:00:20 -0400 I have seen models of non-modernized PRR engines such as M1, N1, K4, L1 and most have the bell mounting plate attached directly to the boiler lagging wrapper. I have seen plans that suggest that the plate was mounted directly to the boiler. In other words, you could not see the mounting plate because it was covered. Overhead photos are hard to come by showing which method is correct. Anyone know? Thanks, Bill Box ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:23:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bell mounting question Bill, I have a PRR Bell you speak of. It weighs aprox. 275 lbs. If this was bolted directly to the boiler wrapping it would not hold. Underneeth the wrapper is insulation. Still it is not enough to reinforce the sheeting. The Bell as bolted directly to the boiler. 4 holes (one at each corner) was good enough to hold it it place. The boiler sheeting I believe came right up to the curvature of the Bell mounting bracket. You can view my Bell and other goodies on my web site below....Hope that helps.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:31:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] 90F82 tender Can anyone point me in the direction of a photo or drawing of the topside of this tender? I am specifically looking to see the area that the hatch cover and doghouse are on. Thanks in advance - Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender Dayna, I am sure you will hear from someone who has photos of this tender, (the one up in Hamburg, NY with the I1 2-10-0) I forget the name of the member from PRR-Talk who is famlar with this loco on display. I am sue he will help with photos...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:00:18 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender Dayna, list, The best photo I've found so far is on page 95 of Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T (1989). It's of a 90F82, and it's looking down at an angle to the rear of the 90F82 tender. This tender is not, however, very common; it has the larger doghouse like the one applied to J1/J1a tenders. It also has a rear headlight and 3 marker lights. There's a slightly less clear shot on page 111 of Staufer's Pennsy Power 3. It's a 1950s view, and shows a different arrangement on a 90F82, with water hatches to both sides, the doghouse in the middle, 2 marker lights, and a rear headlight. I realize I may just have opened up a can of worms for you; sorry! Doug DWa9975062@aol.com wrote: > Can anyone point me in the direction of a photo or drawing of the topside of > this tender? I am specifically looking to see the area that the hatch cover > and doghouse are on. > Thanks in advance - > Dayna > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 20:23:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender Doug - Not at all. I realize there are more than one version of these and different doghouses. I appreciate any and all information I can get at this point. Topside pix are hard to come by. Especially any that show enough detail to matter. Particularly interested in water hatches. Is there a prototypical one made? If so, by whom and part number if there is such. Don't mind the worms...they're great when you're fishing! Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 20:36:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender George - I would appreciate the photos. I'm particularly looking at the water hatches and the backup light. Looking to see if there is much difference if any. I know there were different doghouses and I have some photos showing the lights might have been slightly different but I can't see the water hatches. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance - Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: electricloco@webtv.net (Richard Duley) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] GG-1 In response to comments on the surviving GG-1s.......There are 16 survivors see http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1 Richard ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:09:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender Gary Mittner wrote: << I am sure you will hear from someone who has photos of this tender, (the one up in Hamburg, NY with the I1 2-10-0) I forget the name of the member from PRR-Talk who is familiar with this loco on display. >> Unfortunately, the tender attached to the I1 in Hamburg, NY is just a shell. It does not have a deck or any separation between what was the coal bunker and the water tank. As a matter of fact, the drive rods from the cylinders to the wheels were stored in the tender the last time I looked.....Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:48:46 EDT Subject: Re: RE: [PRR] Cadiz branch Ohio Central is running GP-40's on their coal train. They have a web site http://www.ohiocentralrr.com/ The caboose is possibly an ex-N&W. Dennis S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jim Lucas Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR freight car modeling Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:39:12 +0100 Elden & List Decals to add to your list :- 'HO' MOW pre & post 54 black, F30 as delivered and post 54, H2A, K9 K11 & KFA: 'N' X29 and X31 pre54: Contact my good friend Ian Clasper at ianclasper@freezone.co.uk for prices etc. Not able to make this years convention but would to think I could meet up in 2002. I hope the above is of some use? Kind regards Jim. -----Original Message----- From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil [SMTP:egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil] Sent: 20 April 2000 18:12 To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR freight car modeling Hi folks, I hope you are all as psyched as I am about the convention! I also hope to see you there talking modeling subjects. Speaking of which... I was wondering who out there is working on their PRR freight car fleets? Are there any of you stuck on models of PRR flats and gondolas? Granted, we are looking good on pre-war boxes, and several classes of hoppers, but how many of you are working on models of post-war cars? What are you working on? If you have time to answer a few questions, I'd appreciate it! Other than the F30a (done by Sunshine and Bowser), what other PRR flats have been made (in any medium)? Is the brass F31a a decent model? Is anyone working on converting the Walthers or Tichy Commonwealth flats into an accurate F41 or F41b? Does anyone know when the long-awaited brass PRR flats are due in, and how much $??? Has, or is, anyone other than Champ, producing decals for any PRR flats? Are there others that can be used? How about PRR gons? Other than the G22/25/27/29, are there others being made? Is anyone working on post-war gons? Coil Hoods? Skids? 3-piece removable roofs? Decals? Any good kitbashes? Does anyone know much about some of the other special-use gons and flats? Were you intrigued by the gon photos in the latest Keystone? Is there a reason that no one speculated about their usage? Did they look to you like photos taken during their conversion to oversized tank-head movement (like from Lukens?)? Does anyone know anything about the oversized plate steel loading gons like the G36k (or L?) series? I am working on some of this, but would love to hear from others with similar interests! Drop me a line. Also hope to meet some of you at the convention. Thanks, Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] Position Light Question Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:49:56 -0400 PRR Gize: I have noticed that some "lower arm" position light signals had their target sheilds "clipped" on both sides so that they are not perfectly circular. Was this done to provide clearance to wide loads to the adjacent tracks? I have never seen it performed on upper arm signals or lower arm signals that were mounted on tall masts. Also, the "clipped" signal shields never displayed the "stop" or horizontal indication since space would not allow. Thank you in advance. I hope that all of you have a great Good Friday and a Happy Easter! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:08:18 -0500 From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] Ore Docks Article The summer 2000 issue of Classic Trains (Kalmbach) has a great articile on the Cleveland Ore Docks with lots of PRR coverage and photos. The best is ppg 2 with a photo of A-A PRR Sharks pulling a lot of Ore Jennies off the C&P dock John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Position Light Question Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:42:29 -0700 > ---------- > From: Andrews, Ted[SMTP:Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com] > Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 6:49 AM > To: 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: [PRR] Position Light Question > > PRR Gize: > > > I have noticed that some "lower arm" position light signals had their > target > sheilds "clipped" on both sides so that they are not perfectly circular. > > Was this done to provide clearance to wide loads to the adjacent tracks? I don't know why this was done, but this is as likely an answer as any other. > I have never seen it performed on upper arm signals or lower arm signals > that were mounted on tall masts. Also, the "clipped" signal shields never > displayed the "stop" or horizontal indication since space would not allow. > Thank you in advance. > I don't think the PRR would have ever used anything but a full circle for the upper head. Newark station would be an exception where they didn't have any background at all because of space constraints. I did however see an Amtrak installation in the Bronx on the Hell Gate Line in the '80s where the top arm was just the horizontal and the background was a narrow sliver around the three lights. Strangest looking thing. Position light signals never had a bottom horizontal not because of this clipping, but because it wouldn't add any information to the aspect. Because each row has three bulbs, there is enough redundancy that they only needed to light the top head for Clear,Approach,Stop. Much like the SP displays Clear as Green over Dark. The background shield on the bottom arm was widely variable. Ranging from nothing at all, to narrow slivers just wide enough for one row, to clipped circles, to full circles. Sometimes they would use just a vertical sliver background even on fully loaded bottom arms. > I hope that all of you have a great Good Friday and a Happy Easter! > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > Ted Andrews > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:31:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Docks Article In a message dated 4/21/00 11:20:31 AM Central Daylight Time, johnit@interaccess.com writes: << The summer 2000 issue of Classic Trains (Kalmbach) has a great articile on the Cleveland Ore Docks with lots of PRR coverage and photos. The best is ppg 2 with a photo of A-A PRR Sharks pulling a lot of Ore Jennies off the C&P dock >> It is a good article, bringing up a few points discussed before, such as foreign road hoppers. I was intrigued by the traffic pattern whereby PRR took C&O and N&W hoppers, after delivering coal to Sandusky, in a train of empties over NYC trackage to Cleveland for loading of ore. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:43:00 +0000 From: Roger Hensley Subject: [PRR] Website Moved After having received several complaints about how slow loading my 'Railroads of Madison County' website had become on Ball State University's VAX server, I have moved it to Railfan.Net. Yes, I pay the Sponsor Fee to house it there but it is well worth it and, yes, there is PRR information there. :-) The URL is http://madisonrails.railfan.net We now return you to your regularly scheduled messages. Roger Roger Hensley rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ == == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas von Trott" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam Locomotive sighting Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:27:27 -0400 Looks like you guys almost definatly saw 2839, here are some pics of her movement at http://www.steamcentral.com/index2.htm This is in general the best site on the net for steam news. It's everything I wanted my "Locmotive Report" site to be and it never was. Kudos to them. Tom -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of GPandelios@aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 12:11 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Steam Locomotive sighting Folks, Something really exciting happened to me today. I was working late (around 7:30 pm) at my desk when I heard a train running through the Rutherford yard (across Derry Street) from my office (200-300 yards away). I glanced out my window and saw 2 NS black diesels headed west (towards Harrisburg). Behind the engines were 3 flatcars. On the flatcars were a "madison -type" coach, then a tender (tuscan with smudged or rusted lettering that I couldn't make out), followed by a steam locomotive (also badly rusted). I was so surprised that I didn't get the wheel arrangement before it partially disappeared behind some buildings. However, the engine appeared to be relatively short in length. Has anybody heard anything about any steam locomotives on their way to be restored or, heaven forbid, scrapped? Best wishes, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Looking for: List, Anyone know if Charlie Horan is online? If so can you make his email available to me. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:32:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for: Charlie Horan can be located, per your request, at: charliehoran@aol.com. Dave Seidel Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] CT&D R.R. Hello, I,m looking for info on the Cherry Tree & Dixonville R.R. in NW Pa, (time tables, Pics,books.) Can anyone help?Thax Mark. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:36:26 -0400 From: David Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR freight car modeling Eldon, I recently finished 2 X59c's made from CON-COR 60' box cars. I plan to bring one to the convention. I am currently working on a G22b from Westerfield and 2 X29 express service cars from Sunshine. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR shop Codes Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:02:55 -0400 Hi List, I am sure that this has been published in the Keystone at one time. My collection goes back to about 1990. What are the painted and reweigh date shop codes? For example, I am pretty sure that P57 is Altoona. Could someone please reference the Keystone article (if I have it) or list the shop codes? My home email address is billlane@snip.net Thank you very much in advance! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DPoole17@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 21:44:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE (1) Book . . . MANAGEMENT of TRAIN OPERATION & TRAIN HANDLING (2) Operating Manuals . . . GE P-42-DC (3 copies) (3) AEM-7 (4) GE DASH-40BP (5) 1992 CR NEW Apointment Calendar (Great pictures) (6) CONRAIL Magazines 1976-1978 (7) CONRAIL "INSIDE TRACK" 1979-1998 (8) CONRAIL Annual Reports 1985-1996 If you are interested in these items, make me an offer. Item #6-8 may have some issues missing. Will give complete listing to interested parties. DICK POOLE Dpoole17@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 07:26:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Ohio Central (B&O/PRR Lines West) and T&OC (NYC System) In a message dated 4/21/2000 8:11:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << PS: At one time the T&OC also crossed the interurban line and maybe the Ohio Canal in Hebron. There are two more subjects I find fascinating. >> AHHHH - I should have checked an early Ohio state Railway Commissioners' Map. The 1905 edition appears to identify the interurban as the Columbus, Buckeye Lake, and Newark Traction. Does this seem right? I also see indications of the canal in the area -- at least, "Licking Reservoir" is shown just south of Heath. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone 502-426-0089 (8am to 8pm please) Fax same number 3800 Little Bend Road Louisville, KY 40241-1625 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:59:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Train 580/581 Greeting all I.ve decided to begin work on modeling train 580/581 as it appeared in 1957. Specifically I would like to find out which PRR EP22's were common on the train (if any one was more common than others) and I need to find out which class of RPO the train used. I know the train used a 30 foot RPO between Erie and Renovo, and I assume in was either a BM70k or BM70ka since they were the most common 30 foot RPO's on the PRR at the time. I also want to find out more about the consist of the train, I presume that by 1957 it was probably mostly head end traffic, but also need to find out the usual number of coaches, baggage cars express, etc. If anyone has photos of the train I'd love to see them. Thanks for any information. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: farbland@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:59:14 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Train 580/581 Greeting all I.ve decided to begin work on modeling train 580/581 as it appeared in 1957. Specifically I would like to find out which PRR EP22's were common on the train (if any one was more common than others) and I need to find out which class of RPO the train used. I know the train used a 30 foot RPO between Erie and Renovo, and I assume in was either a BM70k or BM70ka since they were the most common 30 foot RPO's on the PRR at the time. I also want to find out more about the consist of the train, I presume that by 1957 it was probably mostly head end traffic, but also need to find out the usual number of coaches, baggage cars express, etc. If anyone has photos of the train I'd love to see them. Thanks for any information. Brian C ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at: http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/586931/_/956548658/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 08:32:11 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Docks Article Speaking of PRR coverage, the latest issue of the The Railroad Press has an extensive photo layout on the PRR. Believe they are re-prints from other sources, but, hey, unless you buy a large book ... Tom Mahon Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/21/00 11:20:31 AM Central Daylight Time, > johnit@interaccess.com writes: > > << The summer 2000 issue of Classic Trains (Kalmbach) has a great articile on > the > Cleveland Ore Docks with lots of PRR coverage and photos. The best is ppg 2 > with a photo of A-A PRR Sharks pulling a lot of Ore Jennies off the C&P dock > >> > > It is a good article, bringing up a few points discussed before, such as > foreign road hoppers. I was intrigued by the traffic pattern whereby PRR > took C&O and N&W hoppers, after delivering coal to Sandusky, in a train of > empties over NYC trackage to Cleveland for loading of ore. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 08:45:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] new "color" book I was out yesterday and saw a new book, so I grabbed it... "Pennsylvania Railroad - Color Pictorial - Volume 1 - Altoona to New York City" by David R. Sweetland. $49.95, 127 pages. It actually starts at Cresson rather than Altoona. The first 57 pages are basically between Cresson and East Altoona, but on page 58 there's a shot on the Bedford Branch at Hyndman, PA, and some other diverse locations such as Sunbury, Weigh Scales, Williamsport, Driftwood, Sizerville, Emporium and Keating Summit make an appearance. Many (most?) of the pictures are from Sweetland himself, and some look familiar, I think some were in Pennsy Diesel Years. If so, that's somewhat disappointing, since I'd think there'd be enough pictures out there that books such as this need not duplicate them. Anyhow, I'm glad I picked it up, and I look forward to other volumes in the series. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:24:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Friday Dinner At Convention From: Jerry Britton This coming weekend I will need to provide a final count to the restaurant for the "PRR-Talk"/"Cyber Division" dinner. If you will be at the PRRT&HS convention and would like to join us at this dinner, please RSVP to me directly. There are about a dozen seats still available. We scheduled it so it does not interfere with any other "goings-on" at the convention. Please refer to the Convention Schedule for more information: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:58:51 -0400 CANADIAN STEAM ENGINE ALERT! On a day that is perfect for railfanning/photography, the former Canadian Pacific Hudson, Atlantic Central 2829, has departed Conway Yard and is heading westbound on the NS ex-Conrail Ft. Wayne Line behind lead unit CR 6771. The train (we have no symbol at the moment) passed The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B (across the Beaver River from New Brighton, PA) at 11:25 this morning, and should be in the area of Homewood Jct. (Exit 2, PA Turnpike) as this is posted. Other interesting sightings so far this morning: 07:20 EB on CSX... CEFX ex-SP 9401 still in SP paint, 2nd unit on mixed freight. 10:35 WB on CSX... HLGX 6812 (ex-N&W GE) 2nd unit on mixed freight. 10:55 EB on CSX... HLCX 4410 2nd unit, BN SD40-2 8092 4th unit on mixed freight. 11:45 WB on CSX... CSXT AC6000CW 670, BNSF 9-44CW 4686 'Pumpkin' on mixed freight. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:15:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! From: Jerry Britton On 4/24/00 11:58 AM, W. Terry Stuart (tstuart@forcomm.net) wrote: > CANADIAN STEAM ENGINE ALERT! On a day that is perfect for > railfanning/photography, the former Canadian Pacific Hudson, Atlantic > Central 2829, has departed Conway Yard and is heading westbound on the NS > ex-Conrail Ft. Wayne Line behind lead unit CR 6771. The train (we have no > symbol at the moment) passed The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B (across the > Beaver River from New Brighton, PA) at 11:25 this morning, and should be in > the area of Homewood Jct. (Exit 2, PA Turnpike) as this is posted. > Other interesting sightings so far this morning: > 07:20 EB on CSX... CEFX ex-SP 9401 still in SP paint, 2nd unit on mixed > freight. > 10:35 WB on CSX... HLGX 6812 (ex-N&W GE) 2nd unit on mixed freight. > 10:55 EB on CSX... HLCX 4410 2nd unit, BN SD40-2 8092 4th unit on mixed > freight. > 11:45 WB on CSX... CSXT AC6000CW 670, BNSF 9-44CW 4686 'Pumpkin' on mixed > freight. > > And this relates to the PRR how? Please use these lists for their intended purposes. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] Pittsburg Area Modeling Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:35:06 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BFAE1B.D03138E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was somewhat supprised to come accross a C415 at my local swapmeet, = there was as far as I know no announcement about it in the press. It is = the old AHM/IHC model and has been reissued by Mahano at GBP 30.00. I = know the Pennsy didn't have any but the Monongahela Connecting did have = one ( Low cab not medium cab as modeled ). The same dealer had a supply = of Bachmann "John Bull" locos as well. Patrick Grace ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BFAE1B.D03138E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was somewhat supprised to come = accross a C415 at=20 my local swapmeet, there was as far as I know no announcement about it = in the=20 press. It is the old AHM/IHC model and has been reissued by Mahano at = GBP 30.00.=20 I know the Pennsy didn't have any but the Monongahela Connecting did = have one (=20 Low cab not medium cab as modeled ). The same dealer had a supply of = Bachmann=20 "John Bull" locos as well.

Patrick Grace

------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BFAE1B.D03138E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR shop Codes Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:42:47 -0500 These are actually scale codes. There were several in Altoona. P57 is listed as WH East Altoona. There are 4 others listed in Altoona. A list of these are included in the 1923 CT1000E. The pdf file is available on Jerry's web page. They are listed in numerical order, and include additional info such as Division, capacity, and length. For example, some in Altoona are on the middle division, and some are for the Altoona Works. I have been adding this detail to my models. It adds an extra touch of realism. Champ produces decal sets for these symbols as well as repack data. Their info sheets contain lists for other roads. Andy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Lane Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 12:03 PM To: 'PRR-Talk@dsop.com' Subject: [PRR] PRR shop Codes Hi List, I am sure that this has been published in the Keystone at one time. My collection goes back to about 1990. What are the painted and reweigh date shop codes? For example, I am pretty sure that P57 is Altoona. Could someone please reference the Keystone article (if I have it) or list the shop codes? My home email address is billlane@snip.net Thank you very much in advance! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:21:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] SD80's and 90's Just fixed a trojan horse problem that AOL gave me and wanted to test my system but also was wondering if the PRR was around today how these engines would fair as east slope helpers out of Altoona? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brooks" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:31:28 -0400 Although you call the shots, Jerry, I just want to say Terry's post gave me an excuse to spend a few hours trackside at Ft. Wayne MP124, this afternoon. Although I waited in vain for the steamer, I did get the chance to photo some of the signaling around ORR, and snapped some detail shots of the one of the Orrville Railroad Historical Committee's N5C cabins. It was an enjoyable PRR afternoon, thanks to a non-PRR post. Brian Brooks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "W. Terry Stuart" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" ; Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! > On 4/24/00 11:58 AM, W. Terry Stuart (tstuart@forcomm.net) wrote: > > > CANADIAN STEAM ENGINE ALERT! On a day that is perfect for > > railfanning/photography, the former Canadian Pacific Hudson, Atlantic > > Central 2829, has departed Conway Yard and is heading westbound on the NS > > ex-Conrail Ft. Wayne Line behind lead unit CR 6771. The train (we have no > > symbol at the moment) passed The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B (across the > > Beaver River from New Brighton, PA) at 11:25 this morning, and should be in > > the area of Homewood Jct. (Exit 2, PA Turnpike) as this is posted. > > Other interesting sightings so far this morning: > > 07:20 EB on CSX... CEFX ex-SP 9401 still in SP paint, 2nd unit on mixed > > freight. > > 10:35 WB on CSX... HLGX 6812 (ex-N&W GE) 2nd unit on mixed freight. > > 10:55 EB on CSX... HLCX 4410 2nd unit, BN SD40-2 8092 4th unit on mixed > > freight. > > 11:45 WB on CSX... CSXT AC6000CW 670, BNSF 9-44CW 4686 'Pumpkin' on mixed > > freight. > > > > > And this relates to the PRR how? > > Please use these lists for their intended purposes. Thank you. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, listmaster > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:26:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Layout Has anyone on the list visited the Pennsy layout of Ken Pearson featured in the Nov 88' Model Railroader? I'm going to California in June and would like to see this one if at all possible. Please respond off list. Thanks Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD80's and 90's Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:37:49 -0400 Methinks they would cut it as their FofA is higher than DC-motored SD's and their continuous TE is higher. They surely could reprise the role the PRR 40/45's had and then some. Definitely able to "push all night and take TT-1 to Chicago in the morning." You can almost see them in DGLE with striping, as I'm sure PRR would have dressed them up a little like CR did. One can dream... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:44:28 -0400 Maybe I'm impertinent (and a newbie still afraid to do much posting), but I enjoyed the post even though I live far from the ex-PFW&C. Was it totally off-subject seeing as the line in question possesses the pedigree it does? Or was it just tripe (ouch)? Just asking...Thanks Rick S. Parsippany NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:04:50 -0400 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! I agree with Rick. And it was somewhat borderline, but more on-topic than other stuff I've read here...but we need to jump at any opportunity to see a real steam engine moving on ANY main line nowadays...*especially* an ex-PRR main line. Pulled by a CR unit with PRR ownership markings. Not really at all off-topic. The guy deserves a break - - he performed a useful service, since at least one subscriber spent an enjoyable afternoon trackside waiting to see a steam loco. Who wouldn't have liked to join him (instead of being at work), and spend the afternoon at ORR tower, cameras ready, waiting to see a steam locomotive (even dead) roll past on the ex-Pennsy line? Dale Rick Schoch wrote: > Maybe I'm impertinent (and a newbie still afraid to do much posting), but I > enjoyed the post even though I live far from the ex-PFW&C. Was it totally > off-subject seeing as the line in question possesses the pedigree it does? > Or was it just tripe (ouch)? Just asking...Thanks > > Rick S. > Parsippany NJ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [CYBER] Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:27:00 -0400 Jerry, last time I checked....Conway yard was PRR at one time. And lets face it.....Steam is steam, no matter who's it was at one time ! Bill -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: W. Terry Stuart ; PRR-Talk LIST ; cyber-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, April 24, 2000 12:13 PM Subject: [CYBER] Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! >On 4/24/00 11:58 AM, W. Terry Stuart (tstuart@forcomm.net) wrote: > >> CANADIAN STEAM ENGINE ALERT! On a day that is perfect for >> railfanning/photography, the former Canadian Pacific Hudson, Atlantic >> Central 2829, has departed Conway Yard and is heading westbound on the NS >> ex-Conrail Ft. Wayne Line behind lead unit CR 6771. The train (we have no >> symbol at the moment) passed The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B (across the >> Beaver River from New Brighton, PA) at 11:25 this morning, and should be in >> the area of Homewood Jct. (Exit 2, PA Turnpike) as this is posted. >> Other interesting sightings so far this morning: >> 07:20 EB on CSX... CEFX ex-SP 9401 still in SP paint, 2nd unit on mixed >> freight. >> 10:35 WB on CSX... HLGX 6812 (ex-N&W GE) 2nd unit on mixed freight. >> 10:55 EB on CSX... HLCX 4410 2nd unit, BN SD40-2 8092 4th unit on mixed >> freight. >> 11:45 WB on CSX... CSXT AC6000CW 670, BNSF 9-44CW 4686 'Pumpkin' on mixed >> freight. >> >> >And this relates to the PRR how? > >Please use these lists for their intended purposes. Thank you. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, listmaster > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) >business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should >take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the >message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, >when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:31:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! From: Jerry Britton On 4/24/00 7:44 PM, Rick Schoch at (rickstug@mindspring.com) wrote: > Maybe I'm impertinent (and a newbie still afraid to do much posting), but I > enjoyed the post even though I live far from the ex-PFW&C. Was it totally > off-subject seeing as the line in question possesses the pedigree it does? > Or was it just tripe (ouch)? Just asking...Thanks > Then all NS, CSX, and Amtrak movements would be just as pertinent, wouldn't they? My opinion is that it was reaching a bit far. True, it was enjoyable to many, but just as many complain about such off-topic posts. Technically, it was off-topic. -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:04:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Whitehall Branch I know a few of you are interested in the Whitehall Branch... I did some poking around over the last week or so, including near what I assume to be the (South) 30th St. Yard entrance... In the concrete there is "To PRR Yard Office" imprinted in the concrete, with "PRR" filled in with concrete. Because of heavy traffic on Carson St. due to the Glenwood Bridge deck replacement, I didn't stop for a picture. OB (Ormsby) tower is extant but graffiti-covered and had its door bashed in, from all appearances. Anyhow, I was also up near the former Duquesne Brewery and took pictures, and I plan to go back and take more there and on down S. 21th St and I'll get them online soon if anyone cares, but now I'm investigating this for potential modelling; There seems to be a dearth of readily available information. Any suggested reading or places I might look for more information, a track chart, anything like that? I plan to check out the Sanborn fire insurance maps of the area in the next few days (been busy with family problems and work and so haven't done so yet) and will be happy to report findings in that vein, also, if anyone cares. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:08:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! In a message dated 4/24/00 7:39:14 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Then all NS, CSX, and Amtrak movements would be just as pertinent, wouldn't they? My opinion is that it was reaching a bit far. >> I don't usually like to participate in these discussions (well, that's not really true :-)). However, this is a close call. True there is a steamloco list, but we can't all participate in every list around. If a steamer is moving anywhere, but especially on an ex-PRR line, I think I might side with the poster. I would vote for steam of any sort on an ex-PRR line to have a special visa to this list!! If it ain't steam and it ain't an ex-PRR line, then no visa. My $.02 worth, FWIW. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DPoole17@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:28:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Canadian Steamer Enroute?? When I was an engineer for ConRail running between Harrisburg, Pa and South Kearny, NJ, I used to pass this CP Pacific parked at WEST LAUREL on the READING, BLUE MOUNTAIN & READING tracks. It disappeared about two or three years ago. I assumed it went to HAMBURG, PA for indoor storage. Now I hear it is moving. Does anyone know where it is going? The only reason I'm interested is because I saw the locomotive so often. It is my opinion that if it doesn't have a Belpaire boiler and a keystone, it isn't worth film. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR Happiness is... Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:45:31 -0400 I thought I would give a break in the Steam loco action by sharing my 2 lastest PPR happiness is.... 1. Getting your PRR item from Ebay without ANY other BIDS! ( 6 builders photos) 2. Winning a spot on the State Archives Tour at the convention! See y'all in a few days... Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas von Trott" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:51:37 -0400 Do people have to complain about everything? If you don't think the message is on a topic you want to read about the answer is simple, just delete the message! I do that all the time with this list, you don't have to read every single message that you get, I read a lot of the stuff that comes over this list, but not by any means all of it. What differnece does it make if a few off topic threads get started? It was about railfanning, and most PRR fans are railfans in general. Tom von Trott -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of DDembinski Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 8:05 PM To: Rick Schoch Cc: Brian Brooks; Jerry Britton; W. Terry Stuart; PRR-Talk LIST; cyber-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! I agree with Rick. And it was somewhat borderline, but more on-topic than other stuff I've read here...but we need to jump at any opportunity to see a real steam engine moving on ANY main line nowadays...*especially* an ex-PRR main line. Pulled by a CR unit with PRR ownership markings. Not really at all off-topic. The guy deserves a break - - he performed a useful service, since at least one subscriber spent an enjoyable afternoon trackside waiting to see a steam loco. Who wouldn't have liked to join him (instead of being at work), and spend the afternoon at ORR tower, cameras ready, waiting to see a steam locomotive (even dead) roll past on the ex-Pennsy line? Dale Rick Schoch wrote: > Maybe I'm impertinent (and a newbie still afraid to do much posting), but I > enjoyed the post even though I live far from the ex-PFW&C. Was it totally > off-subject seeing as the line in question possesses the pedigree it does? > Or was it just tripe (ouch)? Just asking...Thanks > > Rick S. > Parsippany NJ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 00:16:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Happiness is... In a message dated 4/25/00 12:10:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BLane@wilmar.com writes: << 1. Getting your PRR item from Ebay without ANY other BIDS! ( 6 builders photos) >> Been there, and it is a pretty sweet feeling, except I deal with CR stuff. I snagged a 1986 ZTS map of Philadelphia for $30, and I was the only bidder! Sean McDonnell PRR-Talk Lurker ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 00:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [CYBER] RE: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! List, Whoa!!!!! I am not taking sides here but this is my 2 cents worth on this subject. Most of the people posting on this Steam Train subject are relatively new posters. At least I don't recognize many of the names. You realize you are biting the hand (Jerrys) that started this list. That takes guts! He is the Listmaster, If he says that a post is streching the PRR boundry a bit, I believe he has the right to inform the "newbies" of the "guidelines". .......Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 00:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! List, Whoa!!!!! I am not taking sides here but this is my 2 cents worth on this subject. Most of the people posting on this Steam Train subject are relatively new posters. At least I don't recognize many of the names. You realize you are biting the hand (Jerrys) that started this list. That takes guts! He is the Listmaster, If he says that a post is streching the PRR boundry a bit, I believe he has the right to inform the "newbies" of the "guidelines". .......Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:53:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! So what was worse? The one post regarding a non PRR steam locomotive moving on the former PRR main line, or the dozen postings defending the appropriateness or inappropriateness of the posting? In my experience with mailing lists such as this, the posts talking about what is, and what is not appropriate far outnumber the number of posts that are actually about the topic of discussion. Its ridiculous. But what this tells me is that the listowner is extremely picky about what he wants on his list. So we are banned from discussing what is happening on former PRR trackage? If we can't talk about a steam locomotive moving on former PRR tracks, then if NS derails a traingoing around Horseshoe Curve you had better not post it on this list as the listowner would definately state that its not appropriate because it wasn't a PRR train that derailed! Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD80's and 90's Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:54:40 -0400 Interesting question. The AC locomotives have awesome tractive effort and can maintain high loads virtually indefinately without overheating the traction motors. Couple this with the high horsepower, and they should be ideally suited for helper service. Understand the early 6000 horse models (both EMD and GE) had a bad habit of turning the crankshaft into a pretzel, but I understand some manufacturing improvements around the heat treat process have eliminated that problem. Starting to see a lot of GE 6000 horse models on CSX across northern Ohio and PA. The few SD-90MAC's I've seen have been the early 4400 horse models, presumably to be converted to 6000 horsepower at a later date. I believe Conrail tested the SD-80MAC's in helper service on the west slope and managed to stall them, but I suppose you can stall anything if you tie too much weight to it. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Monday, April 24, 2000 5:26 PM Subject: [PRR] SD80's and 90's >Just fixed a trojan horse problem that AOL gave me and wanted to test my >system but also was wondering if the PRR was around today how these engines >would fair as east slope helpers out of Altoona? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:48:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours From: Jerry Britton For those going to the PRRT&HS Convention next week, I have received the schedules for two of the layouts that will be open... Nick Culp's layout in Shermans Dale, featuring the same wonderful Soundtraxx sound that Larry Reynolds uses, will be open Friday night and Sunday afternoon. The Keystone Model Railroad Historical Society, in Mechanicsburg, will be open Saturday and Sunday afternoons. They are not a PRR club per se, but they have a very nice LONG main line. Still running DC! The Model Railroad Club of York will be open Sunday afternoon. Times yet to be received. I think there is a fourth layout that will be open, a private layout in Mechanicsburg. Complete convention agenda is available on the Cyber Division web site: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Still a few seats for the PRR-Talk/Cyber Division dinner on Friday evening! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Whitehall Branch Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:03:24 +0100 Derrick, I'd love to see any pictures of remaining evidence of the Whitehall Branch that you have. I'm building a layout based on this part of Pittsburgh from the plans and information sent to me by Elden Gatwood and Ken Kobus. As yet I've still to see any photographs, though. Regards, John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Derrick J Brashear To: Sent: 25 April 2000 02:04 Subject: [PRR] Whitehall Branch > I know a few of you are interested in the Whitehall Branch... I did some > poking around over the last week or so, including near what I assume to > be the (South) 30th St. Yard entrance... In the concrete there is "To PRR > Yard > Office" imprinted in the concrete, with "PRR" filled in with concrete. > Because of heavy traffic on Carson St. due to the Glenwood Bridge deck > replacement, I didn't stop for a picture. OB (Ormsby) tower is extant but > graffiti-covered and had its door bashed in, from all appearances. > > Anyhow, I was also up near the former Duquesne Brewery and took pictures, > and I plan to go back and take more there and on down S. 21th St and I'll > get them online soon if anyone cares, but now I'm investigating this for > potential modelling; There seems to be a dearth of readily available > information. Any suggested reading or places I might look for more > information, a track chart, anything like that? > > I plan to check out the Sanborn fire insurance maps of the area in the > next few days (been busy with family problems and work and so haven't done > so yet) and will be happy to report findings in that vein, also, if anyone > cares. > > -D > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:08:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Data Inputers Still Needed For Steam Roster Database From: Jerry Britton Still looking for more volunteers to index photos of PRR steam engines in numerous books. We've had great success so far, but there is much work yet to be done! If you've got some time, some books, and Microsoft Excel, please stop by http://kc.pennsyrr.com/steamdataentry.html and read about this wonderful project to place online a complete database of PRR steam locomotives. Each record will have vital stats on the specific unit, a listing of known published photos, and, if possible, a photo right there on the web! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:58:28 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Book From: Jerry Britton PRRT&HS convention registrants typically receive a book as part of the package. Last year it was "Altoona: Between a Roar and a Whimper" (or something like that). Anyone know if there is a book this year? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:49:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Engine ON THE MOVE! In a message dated 00-04-24 22:19:45 EDT, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << If it ain't steam and it ain't an ex-PRR line, then no visa. My $.02 worth, FWIW. >> Now here's my $.02. Although I'm not much of a steam fan, I had no objection to the original post about this move, or the next few (which narrowed down the train's location and route). Brief strayings from "the topic" don't bother me. But long arguments, such as this one, over trivial items, such as this one, do bother me! Let's talk about something NEAT, such as why the PRR adopted its track-numbering system as opposed to the systems used by most other multi-track roads. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Zero Track. Now that would be a good topic for discussion especially with steam running on it ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Semaphore Signals Anyone know when the Pennsy removed the semaphore signaling system from the West Slope? I'm trying to date a family photo. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR freight car modeling Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:39:52 -0400 Rob Schoenberg wrote: G24 - USRA composite gon, Intermountain and LifeLike both make the composite side version (not decorated for PRR though) Intermountain is suppsedly doing it in PRR with replacement steel sides but hasn't announced anything yet... The Intermountain kit features separate injection molded truss framing and wood sheathing - it would be easy enough to substitute steel sheathing made from styrene sheet to model the rebuilt cars. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:23:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR freight car modeling Ben, Rob and all, As I reported in my Scuttlebutt Column in Mainline Modeler this month InterMountain has heard this rumor as well. I can tell you they are not considering the Steel sheathed rebuilt car at this time for PRR. They were not even aware of the rebuilt cars in PRR. Sorry guys, it ain't so... Greg Martin In a message b.hom@worldnet.att.net writes: << Rob Schoenberg wrote: G24 - USRA composite gon, Intermountain and LifeLike both make the composite side version (not decorated for PRR though). Intermountain is suppsedly doing it in PRR with replacement steel sides but hasn't announced anything yet... The Intermountain kit features separate injection molded truss framing and wood sheathing - it would be easy enough to substitute steel sheathing made from styrene sheet to model the rebuilt cars. Ben Hom >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:59:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR car plates Greetings all, At an antique store, I saw an oval cast plate (approx 6" long) with "Pennsylvania" on top half and a number stamped in lower half. Were these used to ID rolling stock?? Around what time frame where these used?? Any info would be appreciated. The people at this store had no info on it. Thanks in advance Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:29:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Layouts From: Jerry Britton I've added links to two more PRR layouts on the Layouts page of KC. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/ Also, I don't recall if I ever mentioned that I did post, about two weeks ago, a dozen photos of Larry Reynolds' "Altoona Area" layout page. More are coming, as are some of Ken McCorry's expansion! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:56:49 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Auxilliary air tank on PRR 2-8-0 Some weeks ago, someone posted a note regarding a photo of a 2-8-0 (H9 class?) which had a rather large air tank under the cab on one side or the other. He speculated that perhaps the tank had something to do with the locomotive's having been used in passenger service. Someone else expressed doubt, pointing to numerous freight engines used to pull troop trains without any additions to their brake systems. I suspect that both were right. Both appliying and releasing the brakes exhaust some air from the brake system into the atmosphere. The air pump makes up that loss eventually but requires some time to do so. Hence the air resevoir on the engine, to buffer the mis-match between sudden demands for air vs. the more gradual supply of air by the pump. Given that the brakes can consume air faster than the pump can supply it, some time must pass following a station stop before the reservoir pressure is back to it's pre-stop value. I suggest that the key factor which might motivate fitting an auxiliary air reservoir is service in which a number of stop/start cycles occur in quick succession. Such service could easily occur in local passenger service, but is unlikely in troop train, freight, and long distance passenger service. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:26:12 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Converting Bowser To DCC From: Jerry Britton List Lurker Jeff Warner told me in person last evening about a product that just appeared on Bowser's web page...which I confirmed. http://www.bowser-trains.com/Steam-Locos.htm In order to convert a Bowser locomotive for DCC, you must first electrically isolate the motor brushes. Bowser, for $1, now offers direct to its end users, a new brushplate to replace the brass plate on the motor. It's part number 22193. At least as of this moment, it is not available through dealers like myself. Thanks, Jeff! Related: If you care to know but didn't, my "Merchandise Service" now offers Soundtraxx products in addition to Digitrax. See: http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:36:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Auxilliary air tank on PRR 2-8-0 Bob, That was partly me that mentioned the air tanks on the underside of the H9 cab. I also continued on saying maybe these certain locos needed the extra air supply if it was to be used in "local" passenger service. Your explanation makes sense. I too believe it would need that extra air supply to keep up with demand in stopping a heavy train more often than in freight service. I forget how many photos I seen of an H-9 or whatever with thiese tanks. I can say it wasn't very many. Now on the same subject, sort of. The H6sb 2-8-0. This loco was routinely seen with and without the cab tanks. Mostlikely built without those air tanks, (during the years of lighter trains), is it safe to say they were added to many of these engines because of the Loco needed more air supply to safely control the heavier trains of later years? Just letting my brain roam....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:49:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Auxilliary air tank on PRR 2-8-0 In a message dated 4/26/00 2:43:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Now on the same subject, sort of. The H6sb 2-8-0. This loco was routinely seen with and without the cab tanks. Mostlikely built without those air tanks, (during the years of lighter trains), is it safe to say they were added to many of these engines because of the Loco needed more air supply to safely control the heavier trains of later years? Just letting my brain roam....Gary >> ALSO - would their be any conection to the size/style or model of the air pump? ie the tanks correlated to locos used in local service with single cylinder air pumps? Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Auxilliary air tank on PRR 2-8-0 Dick, Without looking at photos to see which locos or classes of locos got which pumps, I would assume that the earlier locos ie; E2's. E3's early H's etc. got those signle cylinder pumps just because that was the technology at the time. As time went on the familiar (2 phase?) pumps were seen on the E6's K-4 L1's etc. becuase that was the newer and needed technology in those years......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] BH-50 Centipedes! Modelers, I just had the little job of placing window glazing in a pair of Overland BH-50 Centipedes for a customer of mine. Very impressive locos. After I was done I decided to take them down on my layout and see what kind of radius it would travel around. Again very impressive. I am guessing it traveled through a 20-22 (not sure exactly) inch radius curve. It stayed on the track! I didn't run the 2 units together because the lack of couplers at this point so I don't know if it would make it as a pair. Each loco is 12+ inches long, so a 24+ unit around a 22 inch radius would look a little silly. Anyway I was just curious as one never knows if a pair of Centipedes is in ones future. And the knowledge of the radius requirements is a plus......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:28:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BH-50 Centipedes! From: Jerry Britton On 4/26/00 3:15 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > I just had the little job of placing window glazing in a pair of > Overland BH-50 Centipedes for a customer of mine. Very impressive locos. > After I was done I decided to take them down on my layout and see what > kind of radius it would travel around. Again very impressive. I am > guessing it traveled through a 20-22 (not sure exactly) inch radius > curve. It stayed on the track! I didn't run the 2 units together because > the lack of couplers at this point so I don't know if it would make it > as a pair. Each loco is 12+ inches long, so a 24+ unit around a 22 inch > radius would look a little silly. Anyway I was just curious as one never > knows if a pair of Centipedes is in ones future. And the knowledge of > the radius requirements is a plus......Gary > Very prototypic, actually... The Northern Central line between Baltimore and York had a lot of locomotive restrictions -- some due to weight but most due to the sharp curves on the line. While most steam locomotives were banned from the line, BP-60's were quite common. I've seen many photos of them in the station at York. So what's a 22" radius convert to in proto size? ;-) FYI: Common locos in York were E, H and K class steamers; EP20's, EP-22's, and BP60's. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] BH-50 Centipedes! Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:03:28 -0400 Gary wrote: Modelers, I just had the little job of placing window glazing in a pair of Overland BH-50 Centipedes for a customer of mine. Very impressive locos. Gary, One thing you (or their owner) may want to check on these models are the leading and trailing trucks. I have two pairs of these models and on all four units the trucks were supporting most of the model's weight and therefor severely reducing traction. I actually removed the support springs for a while, but ended up substituting a much lighter one. They track fine now and will pull (or push) much better than before. Great models! Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:03:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] OFF TOPIC - BUT BEAR WITH ME...... Sunday, April 30th, marks the 100th anniversary of the death, in service of John Luther Jones, Engineer, of the Illinois Central Railroad, just outside the town of Vaughan Miss, at 3:52 a.m. Since there were several John Jones' in engine service this one was known as "K.C." - from his home town - Kansas City. He became the topic of what was probably the most popular railroad ballad of all times. One of the "runners up" would be the saga of Steve "Pete" Broady, who was at the throttle of the Southern "Fast Mail" Train # 97, when it wrecked at the Stillhouse Trestle, North of Danville, Virginia, in September 1903. Katie Letcher Lyle in her book "Scalded to Death by the Steam" discusses several versions and variations of the song. In some the stanza "it's a mighty rough road from Lynchburg to Danville - lying on a three mile grade it was on that grade the he lost his average" is sung "lost his Air Brake" The author points out that either is correct, in railroad terms. Broady, a fast running Engineer, was known to engage in a practice known as "whittling" braking at the entrance to each curve without backing off the throttle. This practice was dangerous, especially on the long downgrade, as it tended to use up air pressure (the average) faster than the old single lung compressor could make it up. When he hit the sharp curve at the north end of the trestle, he had used up his air pressure, and, as the song continues "he was found in the wreck - with his hand on the throttle, scalded to death by the steam" We now return you to the discussion of auxiliary air tanks on PRR Consolidations................. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 26 Apr 00 16:42:13 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] OFF TOPIC Correction to OFF TOPIC Casey Jones had the nick name Casey because he came from Cayce,KY Not K.C., MO. Evidently Dick Ross doesen't read Trains. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:08:14 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Request for assistance on info, PRR Trains 60/61 Greetings to Jerry and the list: I'm working on a magazine story about the history of PRR trains 60 and 61, the Pittsburgher. If anyone can offer thoughts, or observations on operations, consists, memorabilia, photos, or personal recollections of seeing/riding/working on this train, and would like to help, please e-mail me for discussion off-list. Thanks! Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Rom. 10-9-10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RGortowski@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:37:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] BH-50 Centipedes! Gary, While I'm sure the BH-50's were very impressive, you should see them as BP-60's with the 5-stripe gold leaf striping! (pulling a Blue Ribbon Train to Chicago, of course) Rich Gortowski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Convention Book Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:30:18 -0400 Subject: From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:58:28 -0400 Anyone know if there is a book this year? ----------------------------------------- Yes, it is on Lewistown. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:47:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] 30th Street Station A trip last year on the Corridor made me wonder. How were the NY to Chicago trains handled through 30th Street Station? Were they pulled backwards in or out depending on if they were going east or west? What about Amtrak today, how are they handled for this move? Thanks Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:59:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 30th Street Station Usually they run backwards from 30th ST to New York as the train is headed east from Chicago. They run backwards from New York to 30th St. Then when they pull out of 30th ST they are headed west. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:15:28 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] 30th Street Station CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > A trip last year on the Corridor made me wonder. How were the NY to Chicago > trains handled through 30th Street Station? Were they pulled backwards in or > out depending on if they were going east or west? What about Amtrak today, > how are they handled for this move? Thanks Todd Horton Greetings to Todd and the List: Quick answer is that they weren't. PRR asnd Penn Central NY-Chicago trains did not stop at 30th Street. They used North Philadelphia (as the conductors used to announce, " . . .NORTH Philadelphia, NORTH Philadelphia, the ONLY station stop this train makes in Philadelphia.") They used the "New York-Pittsburgh Subway" at Zoo interlocking to go directly to/from Corridor/Harrisburg line. In PRR, Penn Central, and early Amtrak days, if you were bound to or from Center City, you caught a corridor or local train up to North Philly from 30th Street. At one time PRR had plans for a balloon track at the south end of 30th Street that would have allowed trains from NY to reposition themselves upon arrival so that they could head to Zoo and turn west, but this track was never built. It was a few years into the Amtrak era that NY-Harrisburg-Pittsburgh-Midwest service began to operate via 30th Street. After this change, you rode, and still do ride, backwards from New York, both ways. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 26 Apr 00 22:14:42 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] Re:30th Street Station In the days of the PRR east west trains did not stop at 30th street, unless they were originated or terminated in Phila. All NY trains going west of Phila. only stopped at North Broad Station and Paoli. Amtrak changes from electric to diesel at Phila. The trains go into 30th street and pull out in the opposite direction with the new power on the back end. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:42:22 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Additional air tanks on PRR H class steamers Hello list, Bob's explanation makes sense. Every time we assume consistency on the part of the PRR, we can safely assume that we'll be bit on the hindquarters.... The H6b engines were built without the rear vertical air tanks. It appears that the H6a and H6b engines were born with compressors on both the left and right side (based on inspecting various photos in Pennsy Power I). They look like 9" single phase pumps. I looked at photos and at my Lambert H6sb, and the pumps are definitely smaller than the Cal Scale 11" single phase pumps. Any corrections to my assumptions would be most welcome. So far as I know, no H6sb engines ever received cross compound pumps. Perhaps a few received 11" single phase pumps, but I've not seen any. There appears to be no consistency to the application of the rear vertical air tanks on the H6sb class. H6sb 1760 (pictured on page 51 of Pennsy Steam: A to T) has power reverse, but no rear air tanks. H6sb 1, on the same page, is in switching service, lacks power reverse, and also lacks rear air tanks. On the next page, H6a 2546 is pictured in 1911 with the rear air tanks (the above mentioned photos are from the 40s). Finally, the preserved 2846 has the power reverse and rear air tanks. Once again, any attempts at consistency appear to have been thwarted. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:48:54 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Sunshine X-37 Hello list, I received my Sunshine X37 on Monday. The instructions are much better than those for my X-31f. There's an excellent shot of the underbody that's perfect for detailing the brake gear, and the rest of the instructions are printed on nice glossy paper, with the steps neatly broken down. Anyway, assembly is going smoothly (I wish I could say the same about my E6s chassis). Sunshine includes a nice Kadee compatible coupler pocket that has some stuff that looks like center sills cast on the lid; it's a new trick, and one I hadn't seen before. At the risk of revealing my ignorance, I think the prototype put the draft gear between the center sills; am I correct in this assumption? Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:01:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:30th Street Station Looking at a Form 2 for July 1963, all NY - Chicago trains operated via North Philadelphia (who said North Broad Street? Isn't that on the Reading or something!!), and in fact 30th St was not even shown in the NY-Chicago schedule pages. Some NY-Pittsburgh trains did, however, go into 30 St, including coach train 211-33 and the overnight, all-sleeper 61; presumably these cars were hauled backward NY-Phila, although with sleepers it hardly matters. (Did they switch to diesel at 30 St on these trains like Amtrak does, does anyone know?) At that time, the Broadway was carded at three hours eight minutes NY to (departure) Harrisburg; Amtrak's Three Rivers, in contrast, today takes four hours thirty-five minutes . . .with the same stops, only substituting 30 St for North Phila, and the Three Rivers stops at Trenton which the Broadway skipped. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:26:14 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] 30th Street Station In the "good ole days" the PRR did not delay its Blue Ribbon trains by maneuvering into 30th ST. The only Philly stop was at N Philly. A connecting train (usually lowly MP54s) was always available. I recall taking the Pennsylvania Ltd from Philly to NY once. The first leg of the trip was on a commuter run, probably bound for Trenton. All NY bound passengers changed trains at N Philly. From there I rode in a P85b!! Why didn't I ALWAYS carry a camera in my youth? sigh :-( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > > A trip last year on the Corridor made me wonder. How were the NY to Chicago > trains handled through 30th Street Station? Were they pulled backwards in or > out depending on if they were going east or west? What about Amtrak today, > how are they handled for this move? Thanks Todd Horton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rickstug@mindspring.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:57:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] Re:30th Street Station As far as 211-33 goes, it definitely had a G all the way to Harrisburg. This was the Juniata and I saw it many times as I grew up and I rode it twice as a young lad. bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Looking at a Form 2 for July 1963, all NY - Chicago trains operated via North Philadelphia (who said North Broad Street? Isn't that on the Reading or something!!), and in fact 30th St was not even shown in the NY-Chicago schedule pages. Some NY-Pittsburgh trains did, however, go into 30 St, including coach train 211-33 and the overnight, all-sleeper 61; presumably these cars were hauled backward NY-Phila, although with sleepers it hardly matters. (Did they switch to diesel at 30 St on these trains like Amtrak does, does anyone know?) At that time, the Broadway was carded at three hours eight minutes NY to (departure) Harrisburg; Amtrak's Three Rivers, in contrast, today takes four hours thirty-five minutes . . .with the same stops, only substituting 30 St for North Phila, and the Three Rivers stops at Trenton which the Broadway skipped. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] H-9 and H-10 assignments in the west Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:33:43 -0400 PRR Gize: I am looking for Locomotive assignments for H-9 and H-10s in the Chicago Terminal, Ft.Wayne, and Logansport divisions. Circa WWII era. In James Lynch's article on the Grand Rapids division, locomotive assigned to that division in 1942 were listed. Where there ever published reports for locomotive assignments in the Chicago Term., Ft. Wayne, and Logansport divisions? Any information that you can provide (or point me in the right direction) would be greatly appreciated! Ted M. Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] H-9 and H-10 assignments in the west Ted, I assume you are researching loco numbers for your model PRR 2-8-0. I went through my photos and found some H-9s and H10s that was assigned out your way, (Indiana, Chcago). You will see there was not many H-9's out west. Mostly H10's of the 2-8-0 class. I have found 13 H10's and 1 H-9. I have lots more H10's from East St Louis also. Now to come up with a match for your model version. These are the questions I need the answers for. What exact class is your loco suppose to represent? Does your model have the low side or Lines West Tender? And does the loco have 2 single cylinder air pumps or 1 double phase air pump? The H10 photos I have are a mixture of the items mentioned above. H10 possible candidates that I have photos that are in your area are 7225 (Chicago 1950), 7239 (Chicago 1947), 7351 (Ft. Wayne, 1934), 7505 (Ft. Wayne 1929), 7935 (Chicago 1938) 8030 (Chicago 1946) 8092 (Chicago 1944) 8109 (Chicago ?) 8173 (Chicago 1947), 8177 (Chicago 1938), 8187 (Chicago 1946) and 8311 (Chicago 1938). The loan H9 I have is 5073 (Chicago 1950). I need to know your specific model detailing to see if any of these match.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] BH-50 Centipedes! Jerry, Thanks for the tidbit on the truck springs. I will pass it along to the owner. I know he has no layout but does take his equipment to a club. How well it operates as is, I do not know. These particular Centipedes were already painted when he gave them to me. All I needed to do was put glazing in the windows. I am not sure but they maybe painted "wrong" for what the boxes say they are. The Boxes say they are BH-50's I assume (not too knowledgable on these yet) that these should be painted as Helpers (single stripe), Right now they are painted DGLE with 5 gold stripes. Which I know would have been the as delivered passenger versions. Is there a sighting difference beween the BH-50 and BP-60's. Or was it just the gearing reduction that changed the class from BP-60 to BH-50. If so then the paint job presently on these is not actually "wrong", but "wrong" only according to the box label....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:01:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BH-50 Centipedes! From: Jerry Britton On 4/27/00 12:51 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Thanks for the tidbit on the truck springs. I will pass it along to > the owner. I know he has no layout but does take his equipment to a > club. How well it operates as is, I do not know. > These particular Centipedes were already painted when he gave them > to me. All I needed to do was put glazing in the windows. I am not sure > but they maybe painted "wrong" for what the boxes say they are. The > Boxes say they are BH-50's I assume (not too knowledgable on these yet) > that these should be painted as Helpers (single stripe), Right now they > are painted DGLE with 5 gold stripes. Which I know would have been the > as delivered passenger versions. Is there a sighting difference beween > the BH-50 and BP-60's. Or was it just the gearing reduction that changed > the class from BP-60 to BH-50. If so then the paint job presently on > these is not actually "wrong", but "wrong" only according to the box > label....Gary > I don't think there were any spotting differences between BH-50 and BP-60, except for the paint. They were repainted and downgeared when they became helpers. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:07:39 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention From: "Doug and Marianne" For those of you planning to attend the PRRT&HS convention in Harrisburg, May 5-7: Bill Lewis is planning to have an N scale Kato Unitrack layout set up in the lobby of the convention hall. He is inviting N scalers to bring trains to run. There will be several tracks, so there's plenty of room. Here's the opportunity to bring those complete trains that aren't allowed in the model contest. See you there. Doug N. Mill Valley, CA babal@slip.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:37:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] BH-50's Is there a sighting difference beween the BH-50 and BP-60's. Or was it just the gearing reduction that changed the class from BP-60 to BH-50. My understanding is that it was done by eliminating the turbocharger which was always a problem and therefore there would be extremely minor external differences if any. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:21:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "P Co." usage revisited From: Michael Allen I just acquired some older Pere Marquette employee time tables, nos. 78 and 88 from 1949 and 1950. These ETTs show 5 railroad crossings at grade between the C&O [PM] and the PRR in Muskegon, MI. In the instructions for four of these crossing the PRR is referred to as P RR [P[space]RR]. For the crossing near Park Street in Muskegon Heights, and only for this crossing, the notes refer to the "P. Co." Crossing. All other references in the ETT are to either the Pennsylvania Railroad or PRR. Any speculation as to why? MEA __________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen, Managing Partner meallen@juno.com W.R. ALLEN Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:26:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] Extra air tanks on PRR H class steamers, Madison Hill IN In a message dated 4/26/2000 10:43:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << Hello list, Bob's explanation makes sense. Every time we assume consistency on the part of the PRR, we can safely assume that we'll be bit on the hindquarters.... The H6b engines were built without the rear vertical air tanks. It appears that the H6a and H6b engines were born with compressors on both the left and right side (based on inspecting various photos in Pennsy Power I). They look like 9" single phase pumps. I looked at photos and at my Lambert H6sb, and the pumps are definitely smaller than the Cal Scale 11" single phase pumps. Any corrections to my assumptions would be most welcome. So far as I know, no H6sb engines ever received cross compound pumps. Perhaps a few received 11" single phase pumps, but I've not seen any. There appears to be no consistency to the application of the rear vertical air tanks on the H6sb class. H6sb 1760 (pictured on page 51 of Pennsy Steam: A to T) has power reverse, but no rear air tanks. H6sb 1, on the same page, is in switching service, lacks power reverse, and also lacks rear air tanks. On the next page, H6a 2546 is pictured in 1911 with the rear air tanks (the above mentioned photos are from the 40s). Finally, the preserved 2846 has the power reverse and rear air tanks. Once again, any attempts at consistency appear to have been thwarted. Doug >> Hopefully, none of this confusion is being generated by the rogue H6's that the Indianapolis Division assigned to the 5.89% Madison Hill grade, dropping down to the Ohio River. Pictures of the extra braking equipment on these engines would likely send the unsuspecting detailer to the nuthouse; they carried extra pumps, extra tanks, extra sand boxes, cylinder retardation, and more courtesy of their customization at Columbus (OH) shops. I'm not sure if they carried rail washers; I know the two SD-7's acquired for this service in 1953 did. Of course, the H6sb's equipped for this service are well-known; apparently the list included 2910, 8329, 8606, 8851, 9978, 9979, and 9989. The 2910 in this list bothers me, as of course it should not be a Lines West engine. Best (not the only) sources of info on these engines are: 1. "1.5 Miles at 6%", by Richard Jacobs (the Keystone, but my xerox doesn't say which one). 2. RLHS Bulletin #123: "Locomotives for the Madison Hill" by Elmer G. Sulzer. Dick comments that Madison Hill was one of the last refuges of the H6, into 1952. By this time, the H6 would have been considered very light Consolidations, especially compared to the H10 2-8-0's common to Lines West by then. Looking forward to seeing some of you in Madison on Saturday May 13. I'll be railfanning the Hill -- and its copperhead population -- in the morning/early afternoon before the Division meeting starts at 2pm (at the station, if I've got that right). Wish I could remember whether Madison is on Eastern Standard (Indianapolis) or Eastern Daylight (Cincinnati and Louisville) time. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE:"P Co." usage revisited Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:24:30 -0400 Subject: "P Co." usage revisited From: "Michael Allen" Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:21:03 -0400 Michael, Re your question of usage of both PRR and P.Co. in the PM ETT. I surmise that when the P.Co. became the PRR in March 1920 some but not all of the references in the PM documents were changed. I would suspect some were just overlooked. Remember back in the 1940s changing a printed document was not as easy as it is today with computers. FWIW - the NS today still refers to the former PRR interchange track with the B&LE at Shenango, PA as the "P.Co. Number 2" track, somethings never die. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] 30th Street Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:41:30 EDT Hello all, I have made that trip on Amtrak before, and it's not the backing in and out of 30th Street in Philadelphia that takes forever to make the trip across PA, we must all remember that west of Harrisburg, Amtrak does not own the ROW and the longest waits come trying to leave the state capital. Getting through those yards can take forever since (I have yet to understand why) the freights have higher priority than the Amtrak trains. Of course, this is not the PRR anymore, but I would think that the more time sensitive cargo should have priority. we once sided for a train of scraps and garbage! I guess that's progress for you. Matt Sichel Youngest PRR Romantic --I'm living off of His love ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:01:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Final Count -- Friday Dinner At Convention From: Jerry Britton Here is the current reservation list for the Friday Night Dinner at the Convention (besides myself): Williamson, Randy 2 Izzo, Carl 2 Bej, Mark 1 Sautters, Dennis 1 Brashear, Derrick 2 Chany, Chris (inc. Werner, Bigler) 4 Breon, Jerry 2 Haslett, Carl 1 Ryan, John 2 Matt, Lew 2 Wartell, Dave 2 Nowlan, Eugene 1 Tipton, Rick 1 Please send me any additions/deletions ASAP. I need to provide an update to the restaurant by Sunday. We can accommodate up to 16 additional people. Contact me off-list if you are interested in joining us. You can order off the menu in the $7-15 range. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:33:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Friday Convention Dinner -- Where To Meet From: Jerry Britton For those attending the Cyber Division/PRR-Talk dinner at the Ground Round on Friday, May 5... We will gather at 4:45 p.m. at the main entrance to the convention hall. >From there we will walk/ride the 1/4 mile to the restaurant. Dress is casual, so come as you are from the convention. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri Apr 28 11:03:40 2000 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] 30TH Street Station Folks, It was written in a posting yesterday that all New York bound passengers from Philley had to change stations at North Phil. station, after having taken a local from 30th Street. Actually the only time this would happen under normal circumstances was if the passenger wanted to take one of the "western" trains from Pittsburgh or west. Many of therse trains stopped at North Philley to drop passengers only, but some would receive as well. You could take an MU train bound for Trenton or Chesnut Hill, as well as a PRSL job, but it much easier to use a 30th Street through train for New York. These would include the NY "Clockers" as well as Washington-NY corridor trains. This service was usually shown in a separate table toward the rear of the Form 1 timetable, and in the 1950's included over 30 trains each way serving 30th St-NY passengers. Even today, Amtrak provides pretty good frequency in this zone, but catching a train can be easier than finding a seat. Oh well, old 30th street always brings me happy memories , and the sound of a bowling alley still reminds me of shooting pool behind the ticket counters in my teenage years. Guess that bowling alley's long gone now? Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:14:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 30TH Street Station Was it a usual option to connect with the trains to/from the West at Paoli instead of North Philadelphia? Everything seemed to have stopped at Paoli as well. John Bobsin "Nothing is as holy as a local to Paoli" (because the PRR brass all rode those trains to work!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rickstug@mindspring.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:21:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] 30TH Street Station This was also the best option in the early Amtrak era before the current arrangement was instituted. Did it myself twice. bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Was it a usual option to connect with the trains to/from the West at Paoli instead of North Philadelphia? Everything seemed to have stopped at Paoli as well. John Bobsin "Nothing is as holy as a local to Paoli" (because the PRR brass all rode those trains to work!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:43:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Attendance Thursday Evening? From: Jerry Britton Anyone planning to arrive early Thursday evening for the convention? Al Buchan's session on MoW is Thursday at 7 p.m. I'll be there (if you care!). Perhaps a group of us could get together afterwards. The Penn Harris has decent track pans, err watering hole, err lounge! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://www.modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:08:49 -0400 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: Re: [PRR] RE:"P Co." usage revisited CSX still calls a one of its crossovers on the Detroit Subdivision as "P Company Junction", where the PRR once accessed its own tracks up to Fullerton Wye. FWIW, NS crews in the former Wabash Oakwood Yard still refer any CSX puller as "C&O". Jeff Knorek Al Buchan wrote: > > FWIW - the NS today still refers to the former PRR interchange track with > the B&LE at Shenango, PA as the "P.Co. Number 2" track, somethings never > die. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:23:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 30TH Street Station n a message dated Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:14:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bobsin@nac.net writes: " Was it a usual option to connect with the trains to/from the West at Paoli instead of North Philadelphia? Everything seemed to have stopped at Paoli as well." --------- John, I understand that was indeed the choice of folks over on the Main Line. In my long-lost youth, Philley's Kensington area was my stomping ground and the North Philley station was quite handy...those people over in Ardmore, etc lived on a different planet as far as I was concerned. Paoli, with it's frequent locals following the through trains, was a natural Philley stop for that side of town. It always struck me a bit unfair that visitors to the Quaker City arrived from the west at the drab North Philley Station instead of the very impressive 30th Street, giving the town a rather poor first impression even back when I was a kid in the 50's and 60's. Even when a friend and I rode Amtrak's National Ltd from Indy to Philley during the 'fuel crisis" of late 1972 (I think), there was confusion amidst passengers unfamilar with the old Pennsy ways. Folks who thought they would arrive at 30th st almost panicked to find out they'd be dumped up in that neighborhood. The train was about nine hours late, standing room only east of Dayton, Ohio, arrived well after dark instead of in the morning and half the baggage was on the next day's train. To top it off, there was a taxi strike going on and the only rides up there on North Broad Street were out- of -work cabbies hacking in their personal Chevies, Caddies and whatever. Man, what a nuthouse operation. My buddy and I only rode with one guy cause the depot cop would vouch for him....what those Amtrak-stranded families did I don't know. Nobody was trusting anyone, it seemed, so nobody wanted our advice and we headed off for the Fishtown neighborhood a few miles away. Quite a trip, that early Amtrak. Regards, Barry Peltier St.Paul, MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Centipedes??? List, Thanks to all who submitted posts both directly to me and via this list on the PRR Centipedes. I must now share this with the list as I see it as a very interesting project. Someone emailed me off-list while the BH-50 posts were going on. This is what they alerted me of. Mkes Train House, who many of you know make some pretty outstanding models in O Scale. Both pretty accurate and resonable in price. Rumor has it that MTH is or may release these Centipedes in HO Scale. Now, I have never heard this "rumor" until the other day. I never seen any info in print or on the internet before. I asked around and no one can confirm or deny this so called project. I even emailed MTH themselves and as suspected, never heard a reply. At least not yet. Can anyone else add to this "future release?" I have seen their O scale Centipedes and although not exact, perfect, museum quality models they will surely fit the bill for many modelers. With a little added detail and the right weathering, they will look great. That is, IF this rumor is true.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:40:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Whitehall branch "now" photos About 40 photos taken mostly around the former Duquesne Brewery on S. 21st in Pittsburgh (but some further down S. 21st) can be found at http://www.dementia.org/~shadow/whitehall/ I hope to have an excerpt from a USGS topo map of the area online soon, and maybe a trackage map of some sort; I'm still looking for more information. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 22:34:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 30TH Street Station In a message dated 00-04-28 11:10:31 EDT, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Guess that bowling alley's long gone now? >> It stayed there, unused but with at least some lanes intact, until they started the major renovations about 10 years ago. It then became used as a sort of combined storage area/garage, with everything paved over. Temporary headquarters buildings for the construction contractors were in there. Everybody still called it "the bowling alley". A major fire erupted in the bowling alley two days before Christmas in, I think, 1991 or 92. There had been some labor strife among the construction contractors, and the cause was determined to be arson, but to my knowledge no suspect was ever apprehended. Parts of the building smelled of smoke for months afterwards. Anyway, the most recent renovation, within the past six months, has eliminated all vestiges of the "bowling alley". The area is now partially used as a kitchen for caterers who service the numerous affairs which are held in the north waiting room, and partially used as a valet parking area. Anyone who was familiar with the station 15 years ago and hasn't been back since would probably get lost back there now. Rich Copeland, who just completed his 22nd consecutive year working in 30th Street! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:35:47 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Attendance Thursday Evening? I should be there Thursday evening. Dave At 2:43 PM -0400 04/28/2000, Jerry Britton wrote: >Anyone planning to arrive early Thursday evening for the convention? > >Al Buchan's session on MoW is Thursday at 7 p.m. > >I'll be there (if you care!). Perhaps a group of us could get together >afterwards. The Penn Harris has decent track pans, err watering hole, err >lounge! >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) > http://www.brasstrains.net >For Dealers and Manufacturers > http://www.modelrailroadnews.net > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:24:21 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Extra air tanks on PRR H class steamers, Madison Hill IN Rick, list, We started this thread with the arrival of the Spring 2000 Keystone; it contains shots of H8sb 3401 (page 28) and H9s 1920 (page 45) with air tanks under the cab, like a late H6sb. Many of us were unaware that this configuration existed, especially myself. I am especially partial to H6sb engines. Do you know of any photos on the net that show the Madison Hill H6sb engines? I've never seen them (my collection of Keystones starts only with Spring 1993, with scattered back issues to 1985). As I understand it, the H6sb engines on the Madison Hill grade were replaced (briefly) by H10s engines, and shortly thereafter by the SD7s. Thanks, as always, for the input! Doug Rick Tipton wrote > Hopefully, none of this confusion is being generated by the rogue H6's that > the Indianapolis Division assigned to the 5.89% Madison Hill grade, dropping > down to the Ohio River. Pictures of the extra braking equipment on these > engines would likely send the unsuspecting detailer to the nuthouse; they > carried extra pumps, extra tanks, extra sand boxes, cylinder retardation, and > more courtesy of their customization at Columbus (OH) shops. I'm not sure if > they carried rail washers; I know the two SD-7's acquired for this service in > 1953 did. > > Of course, the H6sb's equipped for this service are well-known; apparently > the list included 2910, 8329, 8606, 8851, 9978, 9979, and 9989. The 2910 in > this list bothers me, as of course it should not be a Lines West engine. > Best (not the only) sources of info on these engines are: > > 1. "1.5 Miles at 6%", by Richard Jacobs (the Keystone, but my xerox doesn't > say which one). > 2. RLHS Bulletin #123: "Locomotives for the Madison Hill" by Elmer G. Sulzer. > > Dick comments that Madison Hill was one of the last refuges of the H6, into > 1952. By this time, the H6 would have been considered very light > Consolidations, especially compared to the H10 2-8-0's common to Lines West > by then. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] 2000 PRR Calenders Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:41:05 -0400 Gentlemen: I am looking for a PRR calender that came out late last year. It had some very interesting pictures in it. Among them, one photo of passenger train pulled by E-7s just east of Plymouth, Indiana. I believe the photo was for the June or July page. I should of picked up a calender when I saw it but guess who procrastinated!! - My fault! If any of you know which calender I am talking about, please contact me off list. Thank you in advance!! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:30:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Stanley E Yoder Subject: [PRR] SW PA news I don't vet many of the message headings (I'm on digest), so the following may be old news. If so, ignore. However: It was reported in the 4/29 Pittsburgh Tribune-Review that an intermodal terminal is to be built next to the ex-Chrysler, ex-Volkswagen, now-Sony plant in Westmoreland County (not far from the New Stanton turnpike interchange) on land owned by the Westm. Cty. Industrial Devel. Corp. The rail link is to be former PRR and B&O trackage running north to Greensburg (PRR/CR/NS) and south to Connellsville (B&O/CSX). This 33-mile stretch is also owned by the WCIDC, dba South-West Penn RR. A tourist rr - Laurel Highlands - operates over part of this route. I would think an upgrade of the line will be required. Sony will clearly make extensive use of the terminal (currently trucking product to Ohio for intermodal loading.) The relatively new ex-Conrail terminal at the former PRR Pitcairn Yard site is about 18 miles NW (nearer Pittsburgh). Stan Yoder Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:00:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings What has happened to MC's web site? They haven't gone to Penn Central land have they? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:10:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/00 3:00 PM, CENTGA@aol.com at (CENTGA@aol.com) wrote: > What has happened to MC's web site? They haven't gone to Penn Central land > have they? Todd Horton > I reported on my "Merchandise Service" "Merchandise Announce" list about 6-8 weeks ago of their status... They aren't out of business, per one of their principals, but they are undergoing a "reorganization". I don't want to speculate too much, but they pretty much were only two people. I'm guessing one wanted out. Perhaps the other doesn't have the resources. I don't know. Their web site going down was supposedly just a "coincidence", that the company hosting it was no longer going to do so. I offered a deal for hosting via my server, but never received a response. My guess is that they are done for. I hope not, but I fear that will be the case. Fortunately, I filled all my backorders for BP20 Sharks and the Erie-builts and kept enough for myself. Other than that, I am sold out. I doubt we'll ever see the FM H16-44. I have several on Advance Reservation for customers. Look at the bright side, at least we got two real good products from them that we did not otherwise have!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:31:18 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings Todd, list, I looked at their page tonight; I access it through the NMRA's links page (they're under manufacturers, A-M). Hope this helps. I'm eagerly awaiting the H-15-44s; I also model CNJ, and I need several. Doug CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > What has happened to MC's web site? They haven't gone to Penn Central land > have they? Todd Horton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:44:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 30TH Street Station (North Philly Station) In a message dated 4/28/2000 11:10:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: > It was written in a posting yesterday that all New York bound passengers from > Philley had to change stations at North Phil. station, after having taken a > local from 30th Street. Actually the only time this would happen under normal > circumstances was if the passenger wanted to take one of the "western" trains > from Pittsburgh or west. Many of therse trains stopped at North Philley to > drop passengers only, but some would receive as well. There was also Harrisburg-New York service via North Philadelphia; in Penn Central days, this train was the Valley Forge; I took it in 1974 because it stopped in New Brunswick, where I was working, even though I was living in downtown Philly (Camac and Waverly), while the 8:00am Clocker from 30th St. did not. That 8:00 Clocker got to North Philadelphia at 8:10, and it was almost all parlor cars; the Valley Forge got to North Philadelphia at 8:15, and it was the people from Paoli who worked in New York (although there were some from Harrisburg who did a daily trek to NYC). I used the Broad St. subway, and the tunnel from Broad and Lehigh to get to the North Philly station. The return train from New Brunswick was also the Valley Forge, and left about 6:00pm; I only did this trek for about six weeks. A twenty-trip ticket cost $58.00. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:53:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] 30th St. Station (Bowling Alley) In a message dated 4/28/2000 10:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRRMAN@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 00-04-28 11:10:31 EDT, BPX29@aol.com writes: > > << Guess that bowling alley's long gone now? >> > It stayed there, unused but with at least some lanes intact, until > they started the major renovations about 10 years ago. My own anecdote about the bowling alley in 30th St.: Time, Feb. 1964, Freshman year at Rutgers in New Brunswick, top movie at the Art Cinema was "David and Lisa", final shots of which were done on the steps, and looking into the foyer, of the Art Museum. None of the group, except myself, had ever been to Philadelphia, and there was a spur of the moment (10pm on a Saturday night) consensus to make a visit. I don't recall the round-trip excursion fare (maybe $3.75), but the New Brunswick station ticket office was still open, and sold six tickets for the next to last southbound Clocker, which got us to Philadelphia around 12:15am. I then led a walking tour of the historical sites, the docks, and of the then barely touched Society Hill area, which worked back to the Art Museum (I remember skirting the B&O tunnel to get to the Museum) and up the steps at about 5:15. We then headed back to 30th St. with the intention of getting on the first train back to New Brunswick. It was then about 20 degrees out, and we had been outdoors in "movie date" clothes all night. We got to 30th St. about 5:50 and found out that the first northbound Sunday morning train which stopped in New Brunswick didn't leave until 8:05. We had two hours, and six very cold people. We figured we could wam up by bowling, as the lanes were open: BUT, we couldn't get a lane, as the whole place was in use by a league which bowled every Sunday morning at 6am. We played pool until our departure. Never have found out who those guys were in the bowling league. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!