Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Question
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rholden wrote:
> Again, guys, my comments on the PRR paying dividends each and every
> year to stockholders, is not pushing the idea of whether or not they
> used N & W stock to make the dividend payments. Lot's of companies do
> it. I am making it a point to show the longevity of the PRR was no
> accident. It was operated by people who were railroad people. Whether
> or not the PRR used N&W stock to pay stockholders is a moot point.
> Whether it was a bad business practice...I'll leave that up to the
> experts. Many roads, including the PRR had interest in other roads all
> the time. The whole conjecture about the PRR and Penn Central is that
> it probably should have merged with the N&W rather than use its stock
> to pay dividends. And, perhaps, there would have never been a Penn
> Central. That is the focus of this discussion...not on business
> practices. Thanks guys, Bob
>
>
Bob:
I'm confused. Who are you having this discussion with? I'm getting
only your posts.
Richard Wallis
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rholden wrote:
Again, guys, my comments
on the PRR paying dividends each and every year to stockholders, is not
pushing the idea of whether or not they used N & W stock to make the
dividend payments. Lot's of companies do it. I am making it a point to
show the longevity of the PRR was no accident. It was operated by people
who were railroad people. Whether or not the PRR used N&W stock to
pay stockholders is a moot point. Whether it was a bad business practice...I'll
leave that up to the experts. Many roads, including the PRR had interest
in other roads all the time. The whole conjecture about the PRR and Penn
Central is that it probably should have merged with the N&W rather
than use its stock to pay dividends. And, perhaps, there would have never
been a Penn Central. That is the focus of this discussion...not on business
practices. Thanks guys, Bob
Bob:
I'm confused. Who are you having this discussion with? I'm
getting only your posts.
Richard Wallis
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From: Paul Stumpff
Subject: RE: [PRR] [ldsig] Auto Parts Trains
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:40:30 -0500
Barry:
I spent a few years in the automotive supply chain, even though not at the time frame specified, I did learn some of the history.
In 1952, I believe Ford did have the Atlanta assembly plant and Ford's truck plant at Louisville, but I do not think there were any other BIg Three assembly plants in the South or south of the Ohio. Most plants were in Michigan or Ontario, other places Delaware [Chrysler], Baltimore [GM]; New Jersey [Ford]; New York [GM]; Massachusetts [GM]; Ohio had a couple assembly plants, but many component plants in north and between Toledo and Cincinnati. There may have been a few component factories in Virginia, but these would not be anywhere near the size of current operations that are now common south of the Ohio. Auto parts in box cars going to either Atlanta or Louisville may have been possible.
I would believe that most car shipments through that region would be in lots in the automobile box cars of the period.
During that period, most interest was in taking all the coal and lumber there was; not industrializing other than some chemical plants.
Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio]
-----Original Message-----
From: BPX29@aol.com [SMTP:BPX29@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 8:40 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] [ldsig] Auto Parts Trains
Folks,
Over on the layout design list, one of the members posted this question. Can
anyone help Paul with this inquiry?
He wrote:
From: Paul Catapano
I model West Virginia, July 1952. Draw a circle with Charleston in
the center. Include Eastern Kentucky, up to Zanesville, Ohio. East to
Clifton Forge, and South to Dante, Va. [] ... . Auto
parts/Finished Autos, in which direction could I expect to run trains of
this make-up? In 1952 were there any parts plants outside of , what is
generally considered to be the auto capitol, Detroit. Would Parts trains
be going to or coming from the South? Or would my auto trains be
finished autos going to distribution centers? Was a concept of a
centralized regional distribution center around in 1952? Would I be more
likely to find a few auto cars in a train as opposed to a solid
auto/auto parts train?
I'm very sorry to be so vague and take so long. Thanks to every one.
Paul Catapano
Burbank, Ca.
Thanks,
Barry Peltier
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From: Ljgurke@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:16:32 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 Baggage Cars - roof and paint schemes
>It is my understanding that that the B60b was originally built with the
round roof (well before WWII), and I do not believe that any of the
clerestory roof B60 were given round roofs ...Hope that someone else can
answer this with more authority. Dates built and roof configurations?<
I have 2 ECW B-60s that are about read for the paintshop. Have a question
about roof vents and paint schemes for these cars ...
Referencing Pennsy Power III and PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger
Equipment, I see pictures of this car with roof vents - with what appear to
be circular vents (PPIII p. 369, w/rectangular windows) and the "bent over"
rectangular vents, as well as with no vents at all. Are any of these
correct, depending on the particular car modelled? Obviously the "express
messenger baggage car" would be vented - page 4 of the PRR Color Guide shows
this car with the "modern" paint scheme (PRR w/2 large keystones) - was the
express messenger car also painted in the earlier "Pennsylvania" scheme or
was it a more recent development? If so is there a star on the side and
where is it located? Also, neither of these references have a picture of a
B60 for my era (1956) - where would the "Railway Express Agency" lettering be
located (above or below the belt rail, centered or at end)?
Any on-line references for pictures of the B60 would also be appreciated.
Finishing these cars must be placed "on hold" until I can get some answers to
the above queries ...
Mike Hagan
Andover MA
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From: "Stephen A. D'Addio"
Subject: [PRR] SoundTraxx Decoder for GG-1
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:57:20 -0500
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Bruce & List,
I own 13 GG-1's and would love to put sound decoders in them. Maybe, =
based on your responses, Jerry could "influence" SoundTraxx!
Thanks,
Steve D'Addio
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Bruce & List,
I own 13 GG-1's and would love to put sound decoders =
in them.=20
Maybe, based on your responses, Jerry could =
"influence"=20
SoundTraxx!
Thanks,
Steve D'Addio
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From: DPoole17@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:07:10 EST
Subject: [PRR] DIAMOND PLATE
CONTACT . . . RALPH PICARELLO (Sales) with RIMEX METALS (USA) Inc.
2850 Woodbridge Ave.
Edison, NJ 08837
(800)526-7600
http://www.rimexmetals.com
FAX: (732)549-6435
Mr. Picarello sent me a nice piece of color literature that details the
material they make and it includes several things that I feel would make good
diamond plate. We are going to have to get samples to be sure but opinion is
everything. Each of us will have to make the choice. #2-FD is what we have
used for a long time and it really looks good on ONE INCH (1/12th) models.
The problem that exists with #2-FD is that the die is damaged and it now has
a streak down the middle. Using this for things wider that about 1 1/2 may
be a problem. It should work fine for walkways, etc. He gave me a
"ballpark" figure of $1 per foot.
My suggestion is that you call or E-Mail Mr. Picarello and request the
literature and after you see the literature, request samples of the material
you feel you can use.
I am going to pursue this with Mr. Picarello as soon as I need diamond
plate again.
Since I will not be doing anything about this in the near future, please
let me know how any of you make out in getting what you want.
THANKS!!
DICK POOLE Dpoole17@aol.com
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From: "lew matt"
Subject: Re: [PRR] SoundTraxx Decoder for GG-1
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:10:51 -0500
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>From my close call experiences with the Gs, you only need to have the =
air horn sound. They are quiet beasties!
Lew Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen A. D'Addio
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Date: Saturday, March 11, 2000 3:57 PM
Subject: [PRR] SoundTraxx Decoder for GG-1
Bruce & List,
I own 13 GG-1's and would love to put sound decoders in them. Maybe, =
based on your responses, Jerry could "influence" SoundTraxx!
Thanks,
Steve D'Addio
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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From my close call experiences with the Gs, you only =
need to=20
have the air horn sound. They are quiet beasties!
Lew Matt
Bruce & List,
I own 13 GG-1's and would love to put sound =
decoders in=20
them. Maybe, based on your responses, Jerry could=20
"influence" SoundTraxx!
Thanks,
Steve =
D'Addio
------=_NextPart_000_006F_01BF8B74.5F12D480--
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From: Ljgurke@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:59:01 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 Baggage Cars - roof and paint schemes
Lew,
It's the ECW B60b kit. I did find a drawing showing lettering detail and
vent locations for the Express Messenger car on Rob Schoenberg's web page.
Regards,
Mike Hagan
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From: "Sam Vastano"
Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 from Locomotive Workshop??
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 19:55:24 EST
Chris, Group,
No the ad specifically said HO, had a price of 300.00 for kit and 599.00
for one built. any information woul be appreciated.
Sam
>From: Christopher Chany
>Reply-To: no-soup-4-you@worldnet.att.net
>To: Sam Vastano
>Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 from Locomotive Workshop??
>Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:28:11 -0500
>
>Sam,
>
>I think Locomotive workshop only makes O gauge stuff.
>
>Chris
______________________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 10:05:16 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Colossus -- The Actual Announcement
From: Jerry Britton
Okay, folks, here it is...the answer to "What is Colossus?"
Dana at Train Stuff has provided me with the information to make the
following pre-announcement over the PRR-Talk list (thanks, Dana!). It will
be formally announced on their web site on Saturday, March 18.
Colossus is....The Wilmington (DE) Passenger Station!
This kit will be an extremely limited release. Only three kits are being
allocated per dealer. Merchandise Service is ready to accept Advance
Reservations. Visit
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/
Select "Manufacturer = 'Train Stuff' " and search
There are more details about the product and four scanned samples of kit
portions.
This kit won't appeal to everyone, but for some it will be a "must have"!
Don't miss out, reserve today!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS
"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
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From: Jpk815@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:05:19 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR Photos
While passing the NS Van Dorn Terminal (the prototype) today in Alexandria,
VA, I happened to notice some interesting new power in the yard. I also
happened to have my digital camera handy and snapped a few pics. The
principal subject matter was the PRR 5345, a former Conrail GP-38-2. Good to
see the Standard Railroad of the World's reporting marks freshly painted on a
locomotive. I put the pics up at zing.com for all to see. Enjoy:
http://www.zing.com/album/?
id=4294614877
Jay Keese
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From: DPoole17@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 23:28:31 EST
Subject: [PRR] LETTERING HELP
I am building a 50', single-door box car and I need some assistance in
lettering it correctly. The era I am modeling is 1945-1955. The lettering I
need is NORFOLK & WESTERN and BALTIMORE & OHIO. The cars are being built in
0NE INCH scale (1/12). If someone has the drawings for this lettering, the
decal lettering sheet out of a decal set of HO or O scale decals or a good
side view of these cars, could you please Zerox me a copy of the information
and I will E-Mail you my address.
The lettering will be applied to the cars in vinyl lettering so what I
need should be of good enough quality to be scanned into a vinyl cutting
computer.
The B&O and the N&W had a company logo on their cars at that time. The
B&O was a capitol dome inside a circle while the N&W had circle with a curved
N&W inside it with a white cap on top & bottom. The drawing of these logos
would be most helpful but if the picture is large enough, it should work out
OK.
The cars will be painted box car red and the lettering will be done in
white unless you know something about these cars that I do not. Your input
will be most appreciated.
If I can help any of you get lettering for the larger scales, ONE INCH
(1/12) or larger, I would be happy to do so. The vinyl is reasonably cheap
and with the appropriate artwork, reasonably accurate.
THANKS for your help in advance . . .
DICK POOLE Dpoole17@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:44:36 -0500
From: Jason Jaquith
Subject: [PRR] Towers around Corry PA
Does anyone know anything about PRR towers in and around Corry PA? I know
of MS tower, which controlled the crossing with the Erie mainline, but what
about the points where the Chautauqua branch joined the P&E line in
downtown Corry as well as where the two lines separated again near Lovell,
about 3 miles to the west? Were there towers at both of these
locations? If so, what were their names? Anybody know if any photos of
these other towers (not MS) have been published? Thanks.
Jason Jaquith
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From: "Andrews, Ted"
Subject: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:39:36 -0500
Gentlemen:
Does anyone know if there are published photos of PRR PA-1's in the Chicago
area? I would think that the most probable time frame would be in the late
1940's and early 1950's.
Thanks in advance!
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana
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From: "lew matt"
Subject: [PRR] Re: ***there is a polite PRR list, also...
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:47:53 -0500
Bill:
Please, cut the man a break! I think he's doing a good job. Maintaining
this list is a lot of work and he doesn't get paid for it. None of us are
perfect, so the watchwords are patience and understanding in our dealings
with those who have a responsibility to the rest of us, particularly a
volunteer. :-) Have a nice day, and play nice! :-)
Lew Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Strassner
To: lmatt@alltel.net
Date: Sunday, March 12, 2000 11:51 PM
Subject: ***there is a polite PRR list, also...
>***where those antics are NOT tolerated, let alone from the
>'listmeister".......
>
>Mostly prototypical PRR, as described in the Keystone, and you are welcome
>to try it out at =
>
>PRR-Subscribe@onelist.com
>
>Thx, Bill*-*
>
>
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:51:19 -0500
Subject: [PRR] "Colossus" - Wilmington Station
From: Jerry Britton
Just passing on that one of my allocation of three kits is already accounted
for.
If you want one of the two remaining, reserve soon!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
http://modelrailroadnews.net
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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:10:27 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
Ted and All,
I have one excellant shot of a PA set coming out of Chicago, IL in the late Forties or early 50's on hot varnish in Brunswick Green (DGLE) with Gold Leaf "cat wiskers." I can't ell you the lead units numbers but it will be the support photo for my so to be released article in Mainline Modeler. It is a great 8x10 B&W. Which ever unit it is it appears it has hit something as it has a petty good nick on the engineman's side above the pilot. some ave seen a "sneak peek" of my completed engines. They were a fun project and will introduce some new weathering techniques. Watch for it.
Greg Martin
Ted Andrews wrote:
"Gentlemen:
Does anyone know if there are published photos of PRR PA-1's in the Chicago area? I would think that the most probable time frame would be in the late 1940's and early 1950's.
Thanks in advance!
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana"
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:46:42 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler
Subject: Re: [PRR] Towers around Corry PA
> >From: Jason Jaquith
> >To: prr-talk@dsop.com
> >Subject: [PRR] Towers around Corry PA
> >Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:44:36 -0500
> >
> >Does anyone know anything about PRR towers in and around Corry PA? I know
> >of MS tower, which controlled the crossing with the Erie mainline, but what
> >about the points where the Chautauqua branch joined the P&E line in
> >downtown Corry as well as where the two lines separated again near Lovell,
> >about 3 miles to the west? Were there towers at both of these
> >locations? If so, what were their names? Anybody know if any photos of
> >these other towers (not MS) have been published? Thanks.
> >
> >Jason Jaquith
> >
The following info is from Rick Bell, who provided many of the P&E
pictures on my site:
"EY" tower (pronounced "eye") still exists on the west end of the Corry
yard, on the south side of the tracks. It is a yellow, single story,
block building. The interlocking at Lovell was controlled by EY tower.
The structure at the Lovell interlocking contained the CTC system for
the Chautauqua branch.
Track charts of the Corry/Lovell area from 1945 are posted on my site
at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/tccorry.gif
Rick believes he has a picture of EY tower, and will give it to me to
post when he finds it.
--
Jerry Shickler
Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:43:51 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
In a message dated 3/13/2000 9:47:10 AM Central Standard Time,
Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes:
<< Does anyone know if there are published photos of PRR PA-1's in the Chicago
area? I would think that the most probable time frame would be in the late
1940's and early 1950's. >>
Well, the Kalmbach book Pennsy streamliners has a photo on page 70 which
shows 5755 and an Erie-built and identifies the location as Chicago and the
date as 1950, though the limitations of the photo would allow it to be
anywhere and any date. You are right about the dates in general: Bill
Volkmer in his intro to Pennsy Diesel Years vol. 6 indicates that even the
Alco and Baldwin freighters were mostly East of Crestline by 1960.
Bob Zoeller
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:53:19 -0500
From: Andy Miller
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 Baggage Cars - roof and paint schemes
MIke,
As far as I know, the messenger cars are a s old an idea as the B60b
itself. The mess cars always had the star on the side between the 2
doors. I too am building some B60b's from Bethlehem parts which I
bought at the Springfield show. I am currently modifying the sides to
recess the doors. Fotos of the cars show that the doors were recessed
about 6-9 inches. The Bethlehem/ECW sides are flat.
I bought the sides and roofs from Bethlehem for $.50 apiece! I will
build a brass floor for them and fabricate my own ends. At $1.50 I
figured I could afford a fleet of them!
I notice that you reside in Andover. If you want to compare notes on
the cars (or any other PRR stuff) I can be found Thursday nights at the
North Shore Club in Wakefield.
Regards,
Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org
===================================================
Ljgurke@aol.com wrote:
>
> >It is my understanding that that the B60b was originally built with the
> round roof (well before WWII), and I do not believe that any of the
> clerestory roof B60 were given round roofs ...Hope that someone else can
> answer this with more authority. Dates built and roof configurations?<
>
> I have 2 ECW B-60s that are about read for the paintshop. Have a question
> about roof vents and paint schemes for these cars ...
>
> Referencing Pennsy Power III and PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger
> Equipment, I see pictures of this car with roof vents - with what appear to
> be circular vents (PPIII p. 369, w/rectangular windows) and the "bent over"
> rectangular vents, as well as with no vents at all. Are any of these
> correct, depending on the particular car modelled? Obviously the "express
> messenger baggage car" would be vented - page 4 of the PRR Color Guide shows
> this car with the "modern" paint scheme (PRR w/2 large keystones) - was the
> express messenger car also painted in the earlier "Pennsylvania" scheme or
> was it a more recent development? If so is there a star on the side and
> where is it located? Also, neither of these references have a picture of a
> B60 for my era (1956) - where would the "Railway Express Agency" lettering be
> located (above or below the belt rail, centered or at end)?
>
> Any on-line references for pictures of the B60 would also be appreciated.
> Finishing these cars must be placed "on hold" until I can get some answers to
> the above queries ...
>
> Mike Hagan
> Andover MA
>
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From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil
Subject: RE: [PRR] Allegheny & South Side RR query
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:37:43 -0800
Dan and list, Thanks for the replies on the Allegheny & South Side RR! The
info you dug up, as is often the case, raising as many questions as I had
initially. That is, I guess, what makes this all so fun.
The PRR's CT1000 for 1945 shows the A&SS tracks as PRR on the track
charts, but refers to ti in "Stations & Sidings" as "Allegheny & South Side
R.R. under the PRR's Whitehall Branch of the Mon Division! Argh.
If Oliver Iron & Steel owned it, why did it continue to run into the
60's? The list of sidings also includes several other industries, including
Levinson Steel, Keystone Lumber, Sam Bluestone, Union Supply, Oliver (of
course), Macintosh-Hemphill, United Iron & Metal, A.M. Byers, Republic
Steel, and the Pittsburgh Terminal Warehouse & Transfer. Many of these I
remember seeing, although several had gone out of business by the 60's.
Also, if Oliver closed, someone else bought the property and was operating
something at that site later, although I don't know what it might have been.
Is it possible that PRR took over the track (c.1959) to reach their
customers that would have been cut off?
Thanks again for doing all this digging! It is very interesting stuff.
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@mciworld.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 10:11 PM
To: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Allegheny & South Side RR query
egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil wrote:
> OK, OK! After a deafening silence due to my questions on the Allegheny &
> South Side RR (Not a single response),
Greetings to Elden and the list:
Let's try to change that.
A&SS was not corporately affiliated with the Pennsylvania. It does not show
up
in the three most likely histories: Schotter, Kennedy, or Coverdale &
Colpitts.
It does show up in Tom Taber's Railroads of Pennsylvania Encyclopedia and
Atlas
(1987), p. 10. Here's a summary of the entry: Opened 1895 with five miles of
track on Pittsburgh's South Side (its charter envisioned 12 miles of track,
running to/from Allegheny, the old name for what is now Pittsburgh's North
Side,
but it never made it there). Taber says "apparently not initially controlled
by
a steel company. Later owned by Oliver Iron & Steel Co. to serve their mill.
Plant shut down in 1959 and railroad discontinued operations 8-1-59.
Basically a
plant facility." The roster that Taber lists shows five steam engines, all
0-6-0s or 0-6-0Ts, a Whitcomb 65-ton diesel, and an EMD switcher, 600 hp,
sold
to Pittsburgh & Ohio Valley (I remember at least one SW1 on the P&OV;
perhaps
that was the former A&SS unit).
Hope this helps.
Dan
Dan Cupper
cupper@mciworld
Matthew 6:33
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:26:11 -0600
From: "doug.kisala"
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
Ted and the list,
Check out page 99 of Carleton's Pennsy Diesel Power Review. It has a shot of
PAs 5754 and 5758 at Englewood, IL on 22 August 1949. The engines have the
original number boards, antenna sets, one horn, and closed front coupler
doors. Naturally, the engines are in the dark green locomotive enamel scheme
with 5 stripes.
I don't own any of the Pennsy Diesel Years books (yet), but you might check
them for shots as well.
Doug
"Andrews, Ted" wrote:
> Gentlemen:
>
> Does anyone know if there are published photos of PRR PA-1's in the Chicago
> area? I would think that the most probable time frame would be in the late
> 1940's and early 1950's.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Ted Andrews
> Carmel, Indiana
>
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From: "Rail Classics"
Subject: [PRR] PRR H-2a Hoppers
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:26:57 -0500
Hello List;
Do any of you have photos of PRR H-2a Hoppers ? We are looking for material
on the unique hoppers that the PRR used in the 1950's for a project.
Thanks,
EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS
www.railclassics.com
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:24:28 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Appeal to FAX List Subscribers
From: Jerry Britton
For anyone participating on any of Bill Strassner's FAX lists, I'd like to
make an appeal...
It was brought to my attention privately and off-list that Mr. Strassner was
making derogatory comments about this list AND ALL OF ITS SUBSCRIBERS.
Now, while I can quickly hit the delete key and forget about it, please
remember that, like every issue of The Keystone, every post to "PRR-Talk",
"PRR-FAX", and other lists become part of the permanent legacy of our
beloved Pennsylvania Railroad...via searchable archives.
I contacted Mr. Strassner, off-list, about this and asked him to cease and
desist. Not only did he not, but he brought all of the dirty laundry onto at
least two of his FAX lists.
No, I am not asking you to boycott his lists. I recognize that they may
better serve the needs of some PRR fans.
However, I am asking those of you on both this list and the PRR-FAX lists to
drop Mr. Strassner a polite request to discontinue this online garbage.
There is no room for it on-line or on-list. He can SPAM me personally as
much as he wants...or even do it on a web page. But please, keep it out of
the permanent legacy of the PRR.
Thank you.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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http://modelrailroadnews.net
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:23:28 -0600
From: Richard Wallis
Subject: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show
Okay.
"That does it. Out you two pixies go... through the door or out the window."
(--Nick in "It's A Wonderful Life")
Knock it off, the both of you. Please.
It's the railroad, remember? That's why we're here. Individually, we can all
be irritating enough to each other that we'll never get along. So let's focus
on the big picture... the one that's painted tuscan red and gold, and has a big
stylized keystone emblem all over it.
We love the both of you, but you're driving us CRAZY.
Richard Wallis
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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:53:38 EST
Subject: [PRR] Tom V. Back on line, what's new with LWFF, wants N6 drawings
Howdy all,
I realize it's been awhile but I'm back on line ands looking forward to
resuming my modeling and historical research.
A miracle occurred last night. My mouse began working again. Without this
ubiquitous device it was nearly impossible to file. As I've sold one story
(on a local history, non rail-related subject) and will use the proceeds to
complete upgrading my system with at least another 32 megs of memory ( 64
would be ideal) for me to install voice data entry and command. And I've been
told to expect my disability claim to be approved so I may have an income (I
hope, I hope, I hope) which I can use to support the second Lines West Fans
Fest but I'll still need help pulling it off.
Has anything been settled about LWFF II?
In one of the myriad crashes my system has suffered, I lost the N6
drawings that Al Buchan posted back late last year. If any of ya'll archived
them, I'd really appreciate it if you could send me a copy.
Tom V.
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:59:41 -0500
From: "John Ryan, Jr."
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] The Bill & Jerry Show
Amen, Amen and Amen!
Richard Wallis wrote:
> Okay.
> "That does it. Out you two pixies go... through the door or out the window."
> (--Nick in "It's A Wonderful Life")
> Knock it off, the both of you. Please. It's the railroad, remember? That's why we're here.
> Individually, we can all be irritating enough to each other that we'll never get along. So let's
> focus on the big picture... the one that's painted tuscan red and gold, and has a big stylized
> keystone emblem all over it. We love the both of you, but you're driving us CRAZY.
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:17:34 -0500
Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Materials
From: Jerry Britton
My new issue of The Keystone arrived yesterday, with a fine article on the
Frederick Branch by Northern Central Chapter member Ivan Frantz.
It also included a convention registration form, which, as far as I know,
wasn't planned. Therefore, everyone in the Society will end up getting this
form in advance of those who requested the full mailer. It should be mailing
just about now.
Final reminder: the banquet this year will only seat 350. In prior years it
sold out at 500. There was another event booked for this venue BEFORE the
PRRT&HS committed to their three year stay. This will not be a problem in
2001 and 2002.
Also, there are still seats for the Friday night dinner for PRR-Talk
subscribers / Cyber Division members. It will be held at a nearby restaurant
where we can order off the menu but will have a private room. Figure $10-20
per person, depending on whether you order a sandwich or a full dinner. See
the Cyber Division web site to place a reservation:
http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com
Hope to meet even more of you, as well as to get reacquainted with those
I've already met!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
http://modelrailroadnews.net
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:32:01 -0500
Subject: [PRR] More Steam Roster Photo Indexers Needed
From: Jerry Britton
The numerical information for the massive steam roster searchable database
is progressing...even slightly ahead of schedule.
Quite a few folks have signed on to index photographs from various sources,
but many more are needed. There are a lot of very common books still
available on the list to select from. Please take a look and consider
helping us out here.
See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/steamdataentry.html
Thanks!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
http://www.brasstrains.net
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http://modelrailroadnews.net
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From: CAl2446507@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:15:19 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show
No Man is a failer if he has freinds. Clairance
Charlie
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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:05:59 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
Ted, Doug and List,
As I start my article and gather all my personal thought and data on the PRR ALCo PA/B-1, I reviewed my photo of the pair of PA/B-1 coming out of Chicago, IL last night. IT was 5750 and an unidentified B-unit. The photo is dated 11/49. The unit has definitely hit something as the Bi-Fold doors on the engineman's side are gone, and the coupler cut lever is damaged but in place.
There is a question that I would like to throw out to the list as there seems to be some conflict on exactly what happened. When did the PRR change from the 726 traction motors to the 752 traction motors? If we can deduce that the gearing changed in 1952, was the traction motors changed at the same time? If so, why would the PRR have installed the traction motor vents in 1951 on the noses, are they related or not? Perhaps Bill Volkmer can tackle this one...
Also if Dan Cupper is lurking, can you contact me privately off list, I would appreiate it, Dan I have lost your Email address.
Greg Martin
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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:50:01 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
While we are on the subject of the Pennsy Alco PAs, didn't the Pennsy pick up
some of Lehigh Valley's PA's after that railroad terminated passenger service
in 1961 or did the Lehigh use them all in freight service afterward?
Jim Mancuso
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From: "Andrews, Ted"
Subject: RE: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:59:31 -0500
Jim:
I don't believe that the PRR purchased any of the LV PA's. In fact, right
about that time (1961 through 1964) the PRR was beginning to trade in their
PA's for 2nd Generation units such as the RS-27's and the C-series from
Alco.
I think it was the consensus of the PRR motive power staff (please feel free
to jump in on this, Bill V.!) in the late 1950's that the PA's had a limited
future and should be "used 'til the drop", to quote a phase from an Al
Stauffer book.
Ted Andrews
-----Original Message-----
From: GenJim833@aol.com [mailto:GenJim833@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 3:50 PM
To: TGREGMRTN@aol.com; doug.kisala@mciworld.com
Cc: Ted.Andrews@woolpert.com; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
While we are on the subject of the Pennsy Alco PAs, didn't the Pennsy pick
up
some of Lehigh Valley's PA's after that railroad terminated passenger
service
in 1961 or did the Lehigh use them all in freight service afterward?
Jim Mancuso
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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:09:55 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
I quickly looked through Pennsy Power II and III. No shots
of PA's anywhere west of the Steubenville area. Lots of
shots east of Pittsburgh, and one caption describing a
"rare appearance" of the units on the Pittsburgh Division.
I seem to recall a shot of a PA-1 on the Union, but couldn't
readily say where (either in terms of shot location, or in terms
of where I saw it!)
Rich Copeland
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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:29:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
Ted,
Your original question asks if there is any published photos of PA's
in the Chicago area. How about Englewood, Ill.? In the book "A Pennsy
Diesel Power Review" by Carlton on page 99 is a photo of PA # 5754 &
5758. Date is August 22 1949. Also on the next page, 100, is a photo of
PA #5754 and unknown B Unit heading up the Brodway Limited!!! So says
the caption anyway. Photo taken in Sept. of 1948. According to these
dates the locos' would still be painted DGLE. .....Gary
Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA
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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:54:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PRR] Back Cover New Keystone
List,
For those of you who have recieved the new Keystone issue, take a
look on the back cover. You will see an N6-B Cabin. Is it my eyes or has
the sides of this cabin been painted "Caboose Red"? You can see the
"normal" frieght car color on the steps, the end sill and even where the
"re-pack" stenciling was saved. Looks a little unPennsy in this
color......Gary
Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA
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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:25:19 EST
Subject: [PRR] N6B on Keystone
I noticed the Caboose also. It does look a little to red for the photo date
mid 1957, Iwas also wondering if the date on the photo was correct since if
it is 1957 why doesn't the keystone have a shadow, and what PRR Hopper
class(es) were painted black in 1957? The hopper is in the background. I
thought the PRR's first black hoppers were the H39's in 1958-59 but I could
be wrong.
Brian J Carlson
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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:58:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] N6B on Keystone
Brian,
The description of the photo is a little confusing the way it is
written. The photo was actually taken in the mid-late 60's. Its
assignment was Enola in 1957.
I got a magnifying glass out and read the "repack date" It appears
to be 1-17-63. That will expain the black H-39? in the background. The
red paint (my guess) was probably a local shop applied paint. A "paint
it with what ever you got lying around" order!.....Gary
Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:23:06 -0600
From: "doug.kisala"
Subject: [PRR] Looking for Ray Burkhart
Hello list,
Ray, please forgive my mispelling of your last name. Please contact me
off list.
The package arrived in great shape!
Doug
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From: "Rick Schoch"
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:32:18 -0500
Being a "newbie" to this list, I may be going out on a limb here, but I
would like to add my voice to the chorus of those clamoring for an end to
the personal flaming etc. that's sullying an otherwise tremendous effort
here. I have to say I was almost scared away initially by some of what I
have seen. I made a post a while ago to that effect and it was only a kind
response off-list by one of the members that kept me going. I really
appreciate the work that the Listmaster has put into maintaining this forum;
God knows I couldn't even begin to do something like this. And who knows how
many potential fellow "followers of the Keystone Order" (love that term, Mr.
Wood) have been scared off by this.
Just my opinion, flawed as it may be.
Rick S.
Parsippany NJ
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From: Cathatjim@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:47:27 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show
I know I'll get flamed for this, but here it goes.
The disagreement that's happening right now sort of reminds me of the Penn
Central in fighting. The Red Team thought they did things the best way and
the Green team thought theirs was the best. Hopefully, we can find a middle
ground without destroying both list.
Both list serve their purpose and not everyone's going to get along, the
world just doesn't work that way.
Let's keep the topic to the "standard railroad of the world" and the memory
of that time. Whether it's through modeling or other esoteric way's
My 2 cents worth
Jim
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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:11:42 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show
I am researching a book on the Pennsylvania Railroad and some of this crap is
making it very difficult for me to get the information I need, such as on
passenger operations, diesel roster, where I can get photos to illustrate the
book and the like and yet the manure pile grows larger with this sort of
thing and trivial tripe about how a Bowser K4 is supposed to run on one's
layout. Modelling the Pennsy is all well and good, but I am after the
information to put together an accurate book about the great Pennsylvania
Railroad in its final years of operation and a swelling manure pile of tripe
and insignficent trivia isn't helping the cause. Let's knock it off and get
back on the right track.
Jim Mancuso
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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:00:25 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] N6B on Keystone
In a message dated 3/14/00 8:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mittner@webtv.net writes:
> Brian,
>
> The description of the photo is a little confusing the way it is
> written. The photo was actually taken in the mid-late 60's. Its
> assignment was Enola in 1957.
> I got a magnifying glass out and read the "repack date" It appears
> to be 1-17-63. That will expain the black H-39? in the background. The
> red paint (my guess) was probably a local shop applied paint. A "paint
> it with what ever you got lying around" order!.....Gary
I thought it was the mid 60's also. Another tip was the reading cars in the
background. They appear to be 3 bay covered hoppers if one looks at the
lettering layout. 1957 would be a tad early for them too. Not sure if that is
a H39 in the background but I can't think of another car that got that style
lettering on black paint.
Regards Brian
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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:30:06 EST
Subject: [PRR] A little civility, please
To all,
It seems like I never had a massive equipment failure that kept me
offline for six months. The threads are just where they were in October when
Mr. Stassner got under my skin sparking an ill-considered response that did
nothing but embarrassed me and convinced the data processing gods to smite my
machine with a plague of glitches.
I generally disagree with Mr. Strassner but I now see no reason to argue
with him. We need to be patient and devote our energies to building the
PRRT&HS into a better organization rather than infighting. I see my LWFF
events as an adjunct of PRRT&HS activities. Nearly all who attended the first
one in April 1999 were T&HS members. Instead of infighting, I'd rather build
a good record of planning and executing well-attended events focusing on
Lines West issues. That way at some time in the near future (2002 or 2003 I
hope.) I and others can present a strong case for a Lines West PRRT&HS
national convention location and start a new tradition of alternating East
and west locations.
And then maybe we could effectively raise cash from a growing and
activated membership to finally complete organizing and indexing the data now
inaccessible in Lewiston, Pa.
Just my 2 cents worth. Long ago I realized that living well is the best
revenge.
Tom V.
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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:40:30 EST
Subject: [PRR] PA's in Chicago, the true photos are out there...
Rich,
Rick Tipton's got a lovely shot of a westbound Green A-B--A lashup on the
Panhandle southern Columbus Division mainline at Zimmerman entering the
nearly 1 percent grade between Xenia and Dayton circa 1948. The lack of
photos is from a smaller number of photographers and an interest in
photographing steam. Regularly scheduled passenger and freight service The
Panhandle main lines through Xenia to Cincinnati and Dayton were fully
disseized in August 1949. There had to be something pulling them trains.
Tom V.
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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:26:52 EST
Subject: [PRR] PA's west of Columbus
In a message dated 3/14/2000 4:20:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRRMAN@aol.com
writes:
<< I quickly looked through Pennsy Power II and III. No shots
of PA's anywhere west of the Steubenville area. Lots of
shots east of Pittsburgh, and one caption describing a
"rare appearance" of the units on the Pittsburgh Division.
I seem to recall a shot of a PA-1 on the Union, but couldn't
readily say where (either in terms of shot location, or in terms
of where I saw it!)
Rich Copeland
>>
It's not Chicago, but I have a late 40's George McKay shot of a PA-PB-PA at
speed at Milepost 8 (Zimmerman Ohio) west of Xenia, headed for Dayton. All
of this is on the Columbus Division. Unfortunately, the lighting doesn't
permit reading the leading unit's number, but it appears (of course) in
5-stripe.
Logic says the shot is 1948 or so -- the passenger trains to St Louis were
converted to EMD E units as fast as they could be delivered (presumably
because of their greater reliability). Earlier but similar shots from 1946
in the area show one (or often two) K4s as power. Specifically, the
westbound Union through here carried a single K4, judging from Richard D.
Acton, Sr. shots.
Til the next train out,
Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968
(HO)
Operating the Panhandle Route
And Remembering PRR Lines West
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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:26:50 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 on clearance.
Talk about being a long way from the flagpole (Philadelphia?). Sometimes the
Lines West blues can become acute.
Happened to be in the local Great Train Store today, and noticed that they
had reduced their copy of Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide Vol 1 to $33.75.
Mind you, this is a key PRR reference book that's out of print and already
sought by the Pennsy fans who missed it, and it's being clearanced!
This could only happen in a town where 75% of the people are L&N fans, the
other 25% like CSX, and exotic is spelled "Clinchfield".
FWIW, me and the other Pennsy modeler in this metro area of 830,000 people
got together Monday night to operate my layout. This week is the first time
in a year I've seen him (he's been working out of town).
Rick Tipton
Still modeling the Pennsy in Louisville, KY
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From: "Andrews, Ted"
Subject: RE: [PRR] PA's in Chicago, the true photos are out there...
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:37:25 -0500
Rich, Tom, and the List:
Upon looking in the Kalmbach's Pennsy Streamliner book, there is a photo of
a PA lashup (can't read the number) leaving St. Louis terminal pulling a
passenger train. This is additional photographic proof of the PA's west of
Pittsburgh on the Panhandle. I believe the photo is in the same time frame
as the Zimmerman, Ohio photo.
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: LINESWEST@aol.com [mailto:LINESWEST@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 1:41 AM
To: PRRMAN@aol.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PA's in Chicago, the true photos are out there...
Rich,
Rick Tipton's got a lovely shot of a westbound Green A-B--A lashup on
the
Panhandle southern Columbus Division mainline at Zimmerman entering the
nearly 1 percent grade between Xenia and Dayton circa 1948. The lack of
photos is from a smaller number of photographers and an interest in
photographing steam. Regularly scheduled passenger and freight service The
Panhandle main lines through Xenia to Cincinnati and Dayton were fully
disseized in August 1949. There had to be something pulling them trains.
Tom V.
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:39:12 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler
Subject: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations
Has the society ever considered videotaping the convention
presentations? If they could sell the tape, along with copies of any
charts/handouts etc. for the same price as admission, I'm sure a lot of
people who are unable to attend would be interested. I hate that I'll
miss Al Buchan's PRR in Erie presentation. :-(
--
Jerry Shickler, PRRT&HS #6288
Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:16:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations
In a message dated 3/15/2000 8:47:15 AM Central Standard Time,
jshickler@lkerie.com writes:
<< Has the society ever considered videotaping the convention
presentations? If they could sell the tape, along with copies of any
charts/handouts etc. for the same price as admission, I'm sure a lot of
people who are unable to attend would be interested. >>
What a great idea!
Bob Zoeller
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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:21:59 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 on clearance.
In a message dated 3/15/00 5:31:30 AM Mountain Standard Time,
RickTipton@aol.com writes:
<< Happened to be in the local Great Train Store today, and noticed that they
had reduced their copy of Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide Vol 1 to $33.75.
Mind you, this is a key PRR reference book that's out of print and already
sought by the Pennsy fans who missed it, and it's being clearanced! >>
Rick,
That probably has something to do with the fact that I just heard that this
chain of stores is going out of business. Personally, I already have this
vol., but I would probably havepicked up that one as a spare.
Stuart
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From: "Andrews, Ted"