From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:38:14 EST
Subject: [PRR] opps  that snuck by me...

Hey Yuze Gize,

Did anyone notice that Accrual snuck one in on us?  They are no producing a 
close stand in for the X-54 and X-54A.  If you are not familiar with this 
class it is a 40 foot plug Door box car.  The kit is close but not a dead 
ringer.  <A HREF="http://www.elnet.com/~accurail/art/3100/3102.jpg">ACCRAIL 
X-54 Stand in</A>    Check it out!  I will let you guys figure out the 
differences, so look close and let's PRR-Talk...

Thank Stu Thayer for finding this one for you all.

Greg Martin  

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From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil
Subject: [PRR] Allegheny and South Side RR
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:15:32 -0800 

Hi all,  I was wondering if any Pittsburgh-familiar folks know anything
about the PRR's "Allegheny and South Side Railroad".  What little I know is
that by the 40's it was a single-track running from PRR's 21st Street Yard
adjacent to the P&LE tracks on the South Side west to the Pittsburgh
Terminal Warehouse Transfer operation near the Liberty Bridge.  Through the
years it appears to keep its separate identity, although it is included as
PRR track in all the track charts, etc.  It served a number of big
industries, including Levinson Steel, Oliver Iron & Steel,
Mackintosh-Hemphill Co. - Garrison Works, and Republic Steel's Dilworth
Porter Division.  Although sometimes included as part of PRR's "Whitehall
Branch", it is also sometimes refered to seperately.  I remember PRR locos
(SW-1s due to tight curves) exclusively, but that may have not always been
the case.  The P&LE both interchanged with, and, I believe(!), crossed the
A&SS to get at these industries, but I can find no decent detailed track
chart (9868 is not detailed) of the operation.  It has disappeared now,
although you can still find portions of track buried in the asphalt in
places.  
   Does anyone know how this RR was integrated into PRR?  Was it a RR in
name only?  Did they ever maintain separate facilities or equipment?  Was it
co-owned, like the Monongahela or PC&Y?  Are there any photos out there?
The old plat maps for the South Side do not show it.  Any info would be
appreciated. Thanks,
Elden

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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:03:16 EST
Subject: [PRR] Ohio Connecting Bridge

I was reading through the two books by Ken Kobus and Jack Consoli about the 
PRR in the Pittsburgh area, and was intrigued by the construction of the Ohio 
Connecting bridge.

In the book it stated that when the span over the main channel of the river 
was constructed, additional framework was built in the opposite direction to 
balance the bridge spans until they could be connected.  Looking at the 
photos I noticed that this temporary framework looks identical to the 
construction of the main span itself. 

By comparing the dates for construction of the main span versus the 
construction of the span over the back channel a few months later, I have 
come to form a theory that the balancing framework for the main channel span 
is actually the material for the span over the back channel, and that once 
the main span was completed, the balancing framework was dismantled, moved to 
the other end of the bridge and re-erected as the back channel span.

Is that what happened?  If so, that's a heck of a solution to that particular 
problem.

Rick Rowlands



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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
Subject: [PRR] Big Hook
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:37:27 -0500 

Listers,

Can the Athearn "big hook" 200t crane pass for anything the PRR had?

On the same topic did steam powered cranes carry there own supply of coal
and water?  If it was carried in a tender how did the coal get to the crane
(bucket and shovel) What about the water?

Chris

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Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:44:42 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Ohio Connecting Bridge

--- BigHookX45@aol.com wrote:
> I was reading through the two books by Ken Kobus and
> Jack Consoli about the 
> PRR in the Pittsburgh area,
<snip>
> In the book it stated that when the span over the
> main channel of the river 
> was constructed, additional framework was built in
> the opposite direction to 
> balance the bridge spans until they could be
> connected.
<snip>
> I have 
> come to form a theory that the balancing framework
> for the main channel span 
> is actually the material for the span over the back
> channel, and that once 
> the main span was completed, the balancing framework
> was dismantled, moved to 
> the other end of the bridge and re-erected as the
> back channel span.
> 
> Is that what happened?  If so, that's a heck of a
> solution to that particular 
> problem.

I agree it does sound complicated. But the Corps of
Engineers takes a very dim view of blocking navigation
on the Ohio or any inland waterway, as would have been
the case had they built falsework to support the
incomplete main truss while it was under construction.

An alternative would have been to build the falsework
on a group of barges, build the truss on that
falsework, then float the whole assembly into place,
install the span, then float the falsework away. That
may not have been a choice, perhaps because the truss
was too big to allow it or perhaps even that would
have blocked river traffic for an unacceptable period.



=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:53:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Big Hook

Chris,
I can't speak for the Athearn crane (I've got one myself I haven't assembled 
yet), but isn't that a diesel version? I haven't taken a look at it for quite 
some time, but it seems to be nicely-done.
Steam cranes sometimes had tenders, often from smaller scrapped locos, but 
many, like the Tichey model, had coal bunkers built into the back of the cab. 
Water tanks (someone help me out here) were sometimes in the frame for 
additional ballasting as well as water supply, but I'd guess there were a 
number of variations. MRING or RMJ had an article on prototypes for the 
Tichey a while back and I don't recall if Pennsy was one of them. To my 
mind's eye, the athearn looks more Pennsyish, but that's purely subjective.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:36:06 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Big Hook

Chris, Berry and all,

I think the problem is in the siaze of the boom and not the shell/cab.  The Boom when compared to a good photo of a Pennsy 250 ton Derrick is small throught the girth. With a new boom it would probably fly otherwise...

Greg Martin

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:40:09 EST
Subject: [PRR] Big Hook

  Following originally sent to wrong list.

In a message dated 3/1/2000 1:44:13 PM Central Standard Time, 
cpc1@westchestergov.com writes:

<< Can the Athearn "big hook" 200t crane pass for anything the PRR had? >>

PRR had no 200 ton cranes.  They bought six 250 ton cranes after acquiring 
the J1s.  My understanding (I haven't studied plans) is that the biggest 
difference is in the dimensions of the boom.  
I believe the Tichy 120 ton crane is accurate for the Pennsy version of that 
size.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:30:45 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

Hello list,

My April Model Railroader arrived today.  Intermountain's HO USRA
composite gondola was reviewed; the review said that PRR had 750 of
these cars built for them, and that they eventually got steel sides and
had the hopper bottoms removed.

I wanted to figure out what PRR class this was (I know more about motive
power than about rolling stock, so this became convoluted).  I looked in
both PRR freight car color guides from Morning Sun.  I found only one
shot that appears to match; it's on page 46 of Volume I; it shows a G29c
with steel sides in the shadow keystone scheme.

Rob's PRR page has a diagram of the class and numbers, which may come in
handy.  His page had car numbers and said that Sunshine models made
resin kits of the G29c.

Also in the April MR, this time on page 126, is Lifelike's announcement
of a Proto 1000 USRA 50 ton drop bottome composite gondola.

Now for my questions to the list.  How late did the wooden sided G29
gondolas last (assuming I'm correct on the car's class)?  When were the
drop bottoms removed?

I'd be interested in modelling a G29 circa 1948 (naturally, with my
favorite circle keystone scheme).

Thanks in advance!

Doug


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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:38:21 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Answers to questions no one asked....

Hello list,

I just received another batch of old Model Railroaders from my
grandfather.  On page 25 of the December 1973 issue is a review of the
Lambert PRR H6sb in HO scale.  I was somewhat surprised that my engine
is just 3 years younger than I am....

In the January 1967 issue on pages 48-50 is an article on
scratchbuilding steam locomotive frames that's different from all of the
other approaches I've seen.  The article was written for HO scale, and
the basic idea is using a piece of brass channel that's 1/2" by 3/8" by
1/16.  The 1/2" dimension is for the width of the frame.  The author cut
holes in the frame for the gear/gearbox, axle slots, and used Mantua
driver bearings.

I wonder if brass channel like this is still available?  I like the idea
of this approach because the brass channel is already square, versus a
built up frame that I'd have to solder and somehow keep square
(machining not being my strong suit at present).

Doug


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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:43:45 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] More in the April MR

Hello list,

I noticed a few more things in my April MR.  On page 48, there's a shot
of Westerfield's G22b with a one piece body casting and Youngstown bulk
cement containers in the shadow keystone scheme.  Also, on page 52,
there's a color photo of NKP Car Co.'s 21 roomette PRR sleepers.  They
look nice, but I know little about them (the New York and Long Branch
was rich in P70s and poor in sleepers).

Doug


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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:33:36 -0500
From: Bob Colquitt <wahsatch@vaix.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Answers to questions no one asked....

Doug & List,
  Contact 'Special Shapes' @ http://www.specialshapes.com/ & they might
mill a channel if there is enough interest. The largest channel they
offer now is 1/2" by 3/16" with 1/32" wall.
--Bob

"doug.kisala" wrote:
> 
> In the January 1967 issue on pages 48-50 is an article on
> scratchbuilding steam locomotive frames that's different from all of the
> other approaches I've seen.  The article was written for HO scale, and
> the basic idea is using a piece of brass channel that's 1/2" by 3/8" by
> 1/16.  The 1/2" dimension is for the width of the frame.  The author cut
> holes in the frame for the gear/gearbox, axle slots, and used Mantua
> driver bearings.
> 
> I wonder if brass channel like this is still available?  I like the idea
> of this approach because the brass channel is already square, versus a
> built up frame that I'd have to solder and somehow keep square
> (machining not being my strong suit at present).

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:02:15 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] K4s 1361 restoration photos at Steam Central

Hello list,

Steam Central (www.Steamcentral.com) has a new page on K4s 1361's
restoration.  There are several nice photos.  Enjoy!

Doug


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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:59:30 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Big Hook

In a message dated 00-03-01 18:01:11 EST, you write:

> Chris,
>  I can't speak for the Athearn crane (I've got one myself I haven't 
assembled 
> 
>  yet), but isn't that a diesel version? I haven't taken a look at it for 
> quite 
>  some time, but it seems to be nicely-done.
>  Steam cranes sometimes had tenders, often from smaller scrapped locos, but 
>  many, like the Tichey model, had coal bunkers built into the back of the 
cab.
>  
>  Water tanks (someone help me out here) were sometimes in the frame for 
>  additional ballasting as well as water supply, but I'd guess there were a 
>  number of variations. MRING or RMJ had an article on prototypes for the 
>  Tichey a while back and I don't recall if Pennsy was one of them. To my 
>  mind's eye, the athearn looks more Pennsyish, but that's purely subjective.
>  Regards,
>  Barry Peltier

I've never seen a wrecking derrick with additional water supply in the frame. 
 Water tanks were usually alongside the boiler, coal on the operators side 
and water on the left side.  Additional weight was not needed, or wanted, in 
the frame as it did not help in stabilizing the crane.  At 380,000 lbs. for a 
250 tonner they were too heavy as it was! 

Rick

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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:06:16 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Big Hook

In a message dated 00-03-01 20:52:07 EST, you write:

> PRR had no 200 ton cranes.  They bought six 250 ton cranes after acquiring 
>  the J1s.  My understanding (I haven't studied plans) is that the biggest 
>  difference is in the dimensions of the boom.  
>  I believe the Tichy 120 ton crane is accurate for the Pennsy version of 
that 
> 
>  size.

The major differences between an Industrial Brownhoist 200 ton steam crane 
and an older IB 250 ton crane are:

1) weight 356,000 vs. 366,000 to 380,000 lbs.
2) cable size  1" vs. 1 1/4"
3) length of boom and strengthening.
4) carbody was a little longer.

As you can see, there isn't much difference between the two capacities.  The 
engines were the same size, and there were only minor detail variations 
between the machinery of the 200  vs. the 250.   Now the later IB 250 tonners 
built in the 1940s and later were much longer, had larger wheelbase trucks, 
and were in the neighborhood of 390,000 lbs.  These had welded booms and some 
had three hooks.

I used to own a 250 ton steam derrick, and now own a 200 ton steamer, so I 
have a little firsthand knowlege of these beasts.

Rick Rowlands

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From: "Walt Prusick" <walpru@stargate.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:23:56 -0800
Subject: [PRR] 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF83CC.D578E420
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Doug and list,
Look at same book, top page 55. You can have your gon and paint scheme =
too. Even appears to have the sides redone in metal. BTW, that project I =
was working on utilizing the IHC composite gons to recreate a G29c, well =
it didn't work out. Guess I will have to spend the cash for a decent =
model.

Walt P.=20

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF83CC.D578E420
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Doug and list,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Look at same book, top page 55. You can =
have your=20
gon and paint scheme too. Even appears to have the sides redone in =
metal. BTW,=20
that project I was working on utilizing the IHC composite gons to =
recreate a=20
G29c, well it didn't work out. Guess I will have to spend the cash for a =
decent=20
model.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt =
P.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF83CC.D578E420--


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:35:09 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

The G29 and its subclasses are far too new to be USRA cars.  They were built 
in the 30's and 40's.  The G29a, G29b, G29c and G29d were composite cars 
built to comply with the "less steel" requirements of WWII.

Rich Orr

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:52:42 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

In a message dated 3/1/2000 11:51:55 PM Central Standard Time, 
SUVCWORR@aol.com writes:

<< The G29 and its subclasses are far too new to be USRA cars.  They were 
built 
 in the 30's and 40's.  The G29a, G29b, G29c and G29d were composite cars 
 built to comply with the "less steel" requirements of WWII. >>

I was also confused by how the 42 foot USRA car could become a 46 foot G29.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 06:23:16 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] problems with the mail
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 2/29/00 9:20 PM, lew matt at (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote:

> I can't get into the conference web page and also can't send you this info
> by regular e-mail.....
> 
Unless you've been living under a rock, I made numerous announcements that
access would be sporadic from 2/28-29 as my site was converted from a 56K
line to SDSL. That connection is now complete and there should be no further
interruptions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 06:28:22 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Train Meet in Harrisburg This Sunday
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Just want to pass along the reminder that this Sunday, March 5, is the
annual train meet at the Zembo Mosque in Harrisburg, from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m.
The event is sponsored by the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS.

I'll be there...two tables and the overhead "www.pennsyrr.com" sign. Stop by
and say hello.

P.S. Will have the new Bethlehem Car Works PRR TrucTrain trailers on hand,
as well as the new E-R Models RF-16 freight sharks, including the new
CORRECT five-stripe version. These latter models are a significant
improvement over the older Roco/Model Power units and deserve a close look!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] problems with the mail
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:49:35 -0500

Yes Jerry, I have been living under a rock.  I just got back from traveling
and I'm wading through over 500 messages.  Thanks for your understanding.

Lew


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
To: lew matt <lmatt@alltel.net>; PRR talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] problems with the mail


>On 2/29/00 9:20 PM, lew matt at (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote:
>
>> I can't get into the conference web page and also can't send you this
info
>> by regular e-mail.....
>>
>Unless you've been living under a rock, I made numerous announcements that
>access would be sporadic from 2/28-29 as my site was converted from a 56K
>line to SDSL. That connection is now complete and there should be no
further
>interruptions.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS
>
>"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
>Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
>products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
>the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
>Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
>providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
>our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
>------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
>
>


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From: SNY114@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:41:10 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR USRA gondolas

Hi all.

I'm pretty sure that the USRA gonds were class G24 on the Pennsy. Initially 
they were all assigned to one of the Lines West roads. Unfortunately, I don't 
have time right now to look up more info on them like road numbers, length of 
service, etc. If nobody does that by this weekend I can probably do it then.


Jim Anderson
Thorndale, PA
sny114@aol.com
PRRT&HS 3995
Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 07:55:12 -0500
From: Park Varieties <parkvarieties@provide.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

The USRA gons were class G24 on the Pennsy.  There is an article on these cars
in the February, 2000 issue of Railmodel Journal which has the only picture I
have
seen in print of a G24.  Article mentions that 200 of the original allocation
went
to the LIRR and by the 1930's, many of the former LIRR cars were equipped
with racks for auto frame loading.  By the eraly 1950's the auto frame racks
had
been removed.  Steel sides were applied to the cars after only 10 years of
service
and at the same time the bottom doors were removed.  I have had conversations
with the folks at Intermountain and they plan to issue a PRR version of their
USRA gon with steel sides in the "near future".

Frank Brua

Bobspf@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/1/2000 11:51:55 PM Central Standard Time,
> SUVCWORR@aol.com writes:
>
> << The G29 and its subclasses are far too new to be USRA cars.  They were
> built
>  in the 30's and 40's.  The G29a, G29b, G29c and G29d were composite cars
>  built to comply with the "less steel" requirements of WWII. >>
>
> I was also confused by how the 42 foot USRA car could become a 46 foot G29.
>
> Bob Zoeller
>
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:09:05 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR USRA gondolas

In a message dated 3/2/2000 6:51:48 AM Central Standard Time, SNY114@aol.com 
writes:

<< I'm pretty sure that the USRA gonds were class G24 on the Pennsy. 
Initially 
 they were all assigned to one of the Lines West roads.  >>

The 1953 ORER still lists 263 G24s in service, though they were all steel by 
that time.

Bob Zoeller

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:17:20 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

In a message dated 3/2/2000 6:54:14 AM Central Standard Time, 
parkvarieties@provide.net writes:

<< I have had conversations
 with the folks at Intermountain and they plan to issue a PRR version of their
 USRA gon with steel sides in the "near future". >>

That is great news and shows another good reason for the way they designed 
the kit with separate side inserts, the other being there is nothing like 
weathering a real wood interior--looks great.  That is why I replace my 
floors on flats (like the Sunshine FM)with real wood planking .  I have the 
IMC car in CB&Q and will likely get a Milwaukee car.

BTW, Sunshine also has (or at least had)  the kit for the WWII war emergency 
52'6" gon with wood sides, G30 on the Pennsy.

Bob Zoeller 

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From: "Rob Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:25:37 -0500

Hi all,

The Intermountain car is definitely class G24.  I'm about 3/4 of the way
through
building one of them (another RR) and it is a great looking kit!   I don't
think
Intermountain has announced them in PRR yet but I'd guess they will...

For some more info check out..
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G24

Unfortunately Rich's roster data on the page doesn't differentiate between
composite and steel sided cars...

(The Sunshine G29 kits are very nice too, but are of a totally different
car!)

Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 9:26 PM
Subject: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO


>Hello list,
>
>My April Model Railroader arrived today.  Intermountain's HO USRA
>composite gondola was reviewed; the review said that PRR had 750 of
>these cars built for them, and that they eventually got steel sides and
>had the hopper bottoms removed.
>
>I wanted to figure out what PRR class this was (I know more about motive
>power than about rolling stock, so this became convoluted).  I looked in
>both PRR freight car color guides from Morning Sun.  I found only one
>shot that appears to match; it's on page 46 of Volume I; it shows a G29c
>with steel sides in the shadow keystone scheme.
>
>Rob's PRR page has a diagram of the class and numbers, which may come in
>handy.  His page had car numbers and said that Sunshine models made
>resin kits of the G29c.
>
>Also in the April MR, this time on page 126, is Lifelike's announcement
>of a Proto 1000 USRA 50 ton drop bottome composite gondola.
>
>Now for my questions to the list.  How late did the wooden sided G29
>gondolas last (assuming I'm correct on the car's class)?  When were the
>drop bottoms removed?
>
>I'd be interested in modelling a G29 circa 1948 (naturally, with my
>favorite circle keystone scheme).
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Doug
>
>
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From: "Bill Laird" <blaird@gvtc.com>
Subject: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:17:02 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Trainstuff has announced their "Colossus Project" on their web site.  It =
simply says "if you are a Pennsy fan you won't want to miss this, it is =
museum quality and bigger than a bread box".  They go on to say that it =
will be debuted at the Savannah Prototype Modeler's Show March 24-25.

Anyone know what this is?

Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, Texas



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Trainstuff has announced their =
&quot;Colossus=20
Project&quot; on their web site.&nbsp; It simply says &quot;if you are a =
Pennsy=20
fan you won't want to miss this, it is museum quality and bigger than a =
bread=20
box&quot;.&nbsp; They go on to say that it will be debuted at the =
Savannah=20
Prototype Modeler's Show March 24-25.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Anyone know what this =
is?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Laird</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Canyon Lake, Texas</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF8441.3760E1A0--


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:32:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

 Bill Laird wrote:
  
Trainstuff has announced their "Colossus Project" on their web site. 
It simply says "if you are a Pennsy fan you won't want to miss this, it
is museum quality and bigger than a bread box".  They go on to say
that it will be debuted at the Savannah Prototype Modeler's Show March
24-25.
 
Anyone know what this is? <end snip>

I say:

Hmmmm, Bigger than a bread box. I assume this is HO scale? A breadbox is
pretty big, assuming it is not an HO Scale breadbox. I will take a
guess, (my own personal wishs). Either a PRR Style Coaling Tower or a
PRR Roundhouse! Those are both bigger than a Breadbox, real or HO sale
size. <G>..... Gary.   
 
 
  




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:54:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Gary Mittner wrote:

> Hmmmm, Bigger than a bread box. I assume this is HO scale? A breadbox is
> pretty big, assuming it is not an HO Scale breadbox. I will take a
> guess, (my own personal wishs). Either a PRR Style Coaling Tower or a
> PRR Roundhouse! Those are both bigger than a Breadbox, real or HO sale
> size. <G>..... Gary.   

How big is a breadbox? ;-) Is a set of Centipedes back to back bigger? 

-D



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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:01:49 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/2/00 1:32 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote:

> Trainstuff has announced their "Colossus Project" on their web site. 
> It simply says "if you are a Pennsy fan you won't want to miss this, it
> is museum quality and bigger than a bread box".  They go on to say
> that it will be debuted at the Savannah Prototype Modeler's Show March
> 24-25.
>  
> Anyone know what this is? <end snip>
> 
> I say:
> 
> Hmmmm, Bigger than a bread box. I assume this is HO scale? A breadbox is
> pretty big, assuming it is not an HO Scale breadbox. I will take a
> guess, (my own personal wishs). Either a PRR Style Coaling Tower or a
> PRR Roundhouse! Those are both bigger than a Breadbox, real or HO sale
> size. <G>..... Gary.

They aren't even clueing in the dealer network. However, since it is being
unveiled at a "Prototype" show, it would seem that it is probably based on a
true prototype.

Roundhouses and coaling towers came in many forms on the PRR, almost as many
as towers. (Thankfully we have Bob Strong to build us any tower we want!)

My guess is a station component. Since TrainStuff is located in the
northeast (Mass., I believe) and they are all modelers of NE lines, I'm
thinking its going to be from the eastern end of the PRR.

It's also cited as "museum quality". Hmmm. Could it be? No! Not Penn
Station!!!  ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:33:49 -0500 


Well according to the Phila Chapter newsletter They're producing MP54's in
coach, baggage coach, and baggage mail along with a 90F82 tender for the
Bowser I1. The newsletter also states Miracle is working on Centipedes!

Chris Chany

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From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:50:49 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

My guess would be a Centipede. will be interesting to see what they use for a 
drive.
                                                                       Ken 
McCorry

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:36:06 -0500
Subject: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

I checked the archives, but could not find a good answer to my current
question, even though we discussed all around it a few months back.

Looking to build my mainline in Code 100 w/brown ties. I need some curved
turnouts and I'd like to use the ready-made type. Walthers/Shinohara makes
them in #6 and #8, but I need something in between, even in 1/2 sizes, if
possible. Any recommendations? What about BK Engineering, anyone have
experience with them?

Next question. We previously discussed that Code 83 would be appropriate for
the Harrisburg station tracks. Would two of the prototype through tracks
have remained at 155 pound rail (Code 100 equiv.) or would all ten have been
lighter?

Would the step-down to lighter rail have occured AFTER the yard throat or
BEFORE? In other words, should my turnouts be Code 100 or Code 83?

May even step down to some Code 70 for some of the very light industry in
the area. We'll see what all fits. Thanks!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:14:31 EST
Subject: [PRR] Manhattan Transfer

Where were engines serviced that came off for the DD1's at M. T.?  How far 
away was it?

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 08:59:52 -0500
From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 21 Roomette Passenger Car

Ted,

PS never made any 21 rmts for the PRR.  Most were made by Budd.  Those
at the lower end of the alphabet were made by ACF.  The Budd cars had a
unique "paneled" side.  It was stainless steel, but not fluted.  It did
have the usual Budd fluted roof with the two heavy ribs down the top. 
The ACF cars were smooth side.  I believe the NKP is doing the Budd
version of the car.  It was the more numerous.

I have a NKP Prod C&O 10-6 Pullman yet to be built.  The sides are
etched nickel plated brass.  As such they have a lovely stainless steel
shine, but I suspect the depth of the fluting is shallow.  I believe the
USP gets their fluting closer to the right depth.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

===================================================

"Andrews, Ted" wrote:
> 
> Gentlemen:
> 
> In the latest MR that arrived yesterday, NKP Products had an advertisement
> of their new model, the 21-roomette passenger car in HO scale. I do not have
> the ad in front of me but I believe it is the Pullman Standard version. The
> photo of the model looks very, very good.
> 
> Has anyone built NKP cars before? Are they similar to using the Union
> Station Products car sides and the ECW "core" kit?
> 
> The 21-Roomette car was widely used on the PRR from the late 40's on. In my
> 1948 passenger timetable, this car could be found on nearly all of the Blue
> Ribbon Fleet including the Broadway Limited. This will be a great model to
> have.
> 
> Start stockin' em, Jerry!!
> 
> Ted Andrews
> Carmel, Indiana
> 
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From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: [PRR] Do we have a problem ?
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 05:53:22 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I for one can't get into Jerry's machine.....and I haven't seen any mail =
from anyone  on the list ? All the other list work fine, so whats up ?


Bill  Knepper
PRRT&HS # 1818

(boxcar46@nfdc.net)
End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.

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<HTML>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old Style">I for one can't =
get into=20
Jerry's machine.....and I haven't seen any mail from anyone&nbsp; on the =
list ?=20
All the other list work fine, so whats up ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><BR>Bill&nbsp;=20
Knepper<BR>PRRT&amp;HS # 1818</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old Style">(<A=20
href=3D"mailto:boxcar46@nfdc.net">boxcar46@nfdc.net</A>)<BR>End of the =
NCR tracks,=20
New Freedom, Pa.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:10:01 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] More 1361 information

Hello list,

There's more news on K4s 1361 at www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nhrs.

Enjoy!

Doug


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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 15:53:44 -0500
Subject: [PRR] How To Really Market "Colossus"
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Boy, the folks at TrainStuff must really want to sell their products. I
tried to send them e-mail using the e-mail link from their web site:

> The following message could not be delivered because the address
> custsrv@trainstuffllc.com was rejected by host trainstuffllc.com
> (209.60.16.140).
> 550 <custsrv@trainstuffllc.com>... User unknown
> 
Just think of how much business they might be missing!  ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:15:54 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

Here's a wild guess.....Centipedes!

Stuart Thayer

In a message dated Thu, 2 Mar 2000  1:17:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Bill Laird" <blaird@gvtc.com> writes:

> Trainstuff has announced their "Colossus Project" on their web site.  It simply says "if you are a Pennsy fan you won't want to miss this, it is museum quality and bigger than a bread box".  They go on to say that it will be debuted at the Savannah Prototype Modeler's Show March 24-25.
> 
> Anyone know what this is?
> 
> Bill Laird
> Canyon Lake, Texas


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From: "Chris Brandt" <cobrandt@eclipse.net>
Subject: [PRR] Detailed maps (NJ)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:17:56 -0500

Greetings to the group,

	NJDOT has put up some really nice hi-res county maps on their website.

	http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/gis/county_maps.htm
	
	Lots of detail and abandoned tracks as well.

Chris Brandt
cobrandt@eclipse.net
http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:19:03 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

Bill,

I know what it is but I am sworn not to tell. But, most will not be disappointed!

Greg Martin   

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:50:12 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR USRA gondolas

All:

G24 data

                        No. cars on roster
G24             1944      1949    1952
351473-351872   400     400     399     
751043-751329       178     178     177 
775755-775966       132     131     129 
882514-882563       38      38      38  

cuft 1826   OL: 42 11   IH: 4 8     IL: 41 6    IW:  9 5    EXW: 10 3  EXH: 8 
4  

Rich Orr 

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:03:45 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

In a message dated 03/02/2000 10:31:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
robs@actel.com writes:

<< Unfortunately Rich's roster data on the page doesn't differentiate between
 composite and steel sided cars...
  >>
All:

I went back through the ORER issues used to develop the freight car 
information.  By 1944 the cars were all listed as all steel, tight ends, wood 
floor.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that these were converted from composite 
to all steel as part of the car building and rebuilding program of the mid 
30's.  I can't seem to locate the article at the moment.

Rich Orr

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 16:51:08 -0500
From: Casimer P Zakrzewski <zak@acadia.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

If it is Penn Station (now that *would* be a
'colossus'), I think I'd want one.
Zak

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From: "pgrace" <pgrace@aspects.net>
Subject: [PRR] Imports
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:40:53 -0000

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF8498.5E08E580
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

While the John Bull is the best known import by the Pennsy there was a =
later import.. In the late 1890's a Webb compound was imported. It was a =
copy by Bayer Peacock of a "Dreadnaught" class locomotive of the London =
& North Western Railway. This arrangement instead of the LNWR works at =
Crewe because British laws forbade railway works building locomotives =
for export.  It was a 2-4-0 tender locomotive, but as a result of the =
design it was effectively a 2-2-2-0 locomotive. It was possible to get =
the wheels spinning in opposite directions! I believe it was numbered =
1520. ( The information above comes from a book called Railways at the =
Turn of the Century by O.S. Nock ). Does any one else know anything =
about it.

Patrick Grace

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF8498.5E08E580
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>While the John Bull is the best known =
import by the=20
Pennsy there was a later import.. In the late 1890's a Webb compound was =

imported. It was a copy by Bayer Peacock of a "Dreadnaught" class =
locomotive of=20
the London &amp; North Western Railway. This arrangement instead of the =
LNWR=20
works at Crewe because British laws forbade railway works building =
locomotives=20
for export.&nbsp; It was a 2-4-0 tender locomotive, but as a result of =
the=20
design it was effectively a 2-2-2-0 locomotive. It was possible to get =
the=20
wheels spinning in opposite directions! I believe it was numbered 1520. =
( The=20
information above comes from a book called Railways at the Turn of the =
Century=20
by O.S. Nock ). Does any one else know anything about it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Patrick =
Grace</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF8498.5E08E580--


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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 18:13:21 -0500
From: DDembinski <DDembinski@Centurytel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Detailed maps (NJ)

For those who are so inclined, another site to visit for maps is http://www.topozone.com.
You can zoom in and see a fair amount of detail, like the location of buildings and RR
tracks.  Abandoned roadbeds can be spotted because of their higher elevation than the
surrounding land.  Much cheaper than buying topographic maps for ALL those favorite areas.

Here is a link that will take you directly to Horseshoe Curve:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=40.4926&lon=-78.4677&s=25&size=m

In this view, note that there is a tiny (on the map, at least) abandoned reservoir located
south of Kittanning Reservoir, somewhat near the tracks.  Might this have been a water
source for track pans?  Would track pans have been needed this close to Altoona?

Dale

Chris Brandt wrote:

> Greetings to the group,
>
>         NJDOT has put up some really nice hi-res county maps on their website.
>
>         http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/gis/county_maps.htm
>
>         Lots of detail and abandoned tracks as well.
>
> Chris Brandt
> cobrandt@eclipse.net
> http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt
>
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:36:45 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR USRA gondolas

In a message dated 3/2/2000 4:22:33 PM Central Standard Time, 
SUVCWORR@aol.com writes:

<< G24 data
 
                         No. cars on roster
 G24             1944      1949    1952
 351473-351872   400     400     399     
 751043-751329       178     178     177 
 775755-775966       132     131     129 
 882514-882563       38      38      38   >>

Just to correct the record, I missed the 351xxx series in my post about 1953. 
 There were 282 left in that series in 1953 to add to the 263 in the other 
three series.

Bob Zoeller

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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:39:50 EST
Subject: [PRR] "Colossus"

Jerry & List - I know I've been very quiet lately as we up here at Trainstuff 
have been very busy. So let me try to put all my thoughts in this one post. 
First of all let me thank the Philadelphia Chapter members for their help and 
encouragement for almost a year now. You know who you are and you know my 
thanks are sincere. Loosing ones eyesight is a terrible thing to happen to 
anyone but when it happens suddenly to a first rate modeler it's a real 
tragedy. For those of you who have e-mailed John with words of 
encouragement,(especially you Greg, you rascal!) it has been appreciated. 
John used to build all our masters. When he first became ill we had the 
Wallingford Station which was half turned into a kit. We had the MP54s which 
we were making into a one piece shell so it would be easier to put together 
and "Colossus" was in it's planning stage. Plus several projects for other 
railroads. My partners and I, when the dust settled took a good long look and 
said "What are we going to do?" We went for about 2 1/2 months turning away 
work. People were sending us checks with notes saying when you get a 
chance...send me this or that. We were overwhelmed by the amount of trust 
people had in us. So we all dug in and here is where we are today. The 
Wallingford Station is complete and we are waiting on packaging and the 
printed instructions are being reviewed for ease of assembly. The MP54s are 
well underway (after someone filed off all the rivets by mistake and we had 
to start over!). Now we come to "Colossus". When we announce what "Colossus" 
is we will also tell the list who built the masters. It is not a centipede. 
It is not an HO scale breadbox. And Penn Station in HO scale would be 
approximately the size of a '56 Buick. And Jerry don't ask me how I know 
that. We do intend to let our dealer network know before Savannah what it is. 
It probably won't be ready for sale until the end of April. We will post 
pictures on our website and in Mainline Modeler as soon as we can. Our main 
concern at this point is keeping the price down. We built "Colossus" as a 
tribute to the Pennsylvania Railroad and the wonderful people who remember 
it. It's not going to be cheap but we are going to try to keep the price 
within just about everyone's reach. Jerry - it must have been a cyber gremlin 
that told you "host unknown". I just tested it and its working fine. I've 
taken up enough space for tonight. Thank you and God Bless you all. 
Dayna
Trainstuff LLC
www.trainstuffllc.com

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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s 1361 restoration photos at Steam Central
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:46:31 -0500

With respect to 1361, I understand that the Museum in Altoona doesn't plan
to use it in excursion service (nowhere practical to run it), but may run it
back and forth on a museum track.  If so, that's a lot of $$$ for a rebuild
they don't plan to use!  Along the way, does anyone know whether Steamtown
plans to run it up the hill to test it?  I'd go to great trouble to be there
for that one, if they do and I can find out when!  Assuming I can find
somewhere to stand among the crowds!

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

-----Original Message-----
From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 9:50 PM
Subject: [PRR] K4s 1361 restoration photos at Steam Central


>Hello list,
>
>Steam Central (www.Steamcentral.com) has a new page on K4s 1361's
>restoration.  There are several nice photos.  Enjoy!
>
>Doug
>
>
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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:00:20 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track

Jerry,
I've had some limited experience with the BK switches and I generally like 
them, but be sure to buy the complete kit and not just the points/frog, 
because the price difference isn't much and saves a lot of gauging. I have a 
freind who's used about a dozen of the larger sizes in his passenger terminal 
and really likes them. I've used a few #5's and have had good luck in a 
fairly busy yard area.
Barry Peltier

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:00:55 -0500
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s 1361 restoration photos at Steam Central



Bill Bigler wrote:
> 
> With respect to 1361, I understand that the Museum in Altoona doesn't plan
> to use it in excursion service (nowhere practical to run it), but may run it
> back and forth on a museum track.  If so, that's a lot of $$$ for a rebuild
> they don't plan to use!  Along the way, does anyone know whether Steamtown
> plans to run it up the hill to test it?  I'd go to great trouble to be there
> for that one, if they do and I can find out when!  Assuming I can find
> somewhere to stand among the crowds!

They have no place to run it NOW but who knows what the future may bring.

Patrick

-- 
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of
the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a
patent yet." 
   -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky
PRRT&HS #6713
============================================================================

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From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] "Colossus"
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:20:39 -0600

I'm hoping "Colossus" is a working model of the South Branch Bridge in
Chicago.


Andy


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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:36:55 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] "Colossus"

Sorry - Wrong guess. Dayna

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:01:09 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] G24 questions

Hello list,

Thanks to all of you who corrected my misidentification of the new
Intermountain G24.  I think I will wait for the PRR version before I
spring for one (laziness wins again over paint and decals...).

Doug


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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 21:29:11 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Colossus


  Hi...

   My guess for this would be that its old Broad Street station.
   Besides Penn station in New York....Broad street station 
   was one of the many things the PRR was known by.
   Now if its not this....then perhaps its one of these....

   Hell Gate bridge in New York....The S-1.or.Q-2...The FF-1 or DD-1
   or perhaps a kit for the Rockville bridge....Remember folks...
   The PRR was known for a lot of BIG things....LOL
                              Til Later
                              Hank Mummert


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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 21:54:31 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Colossus


 Hi all....

  Hmmmm speaking of things Colossus....The NEC main (former PRR
  Washington to New York main) roughly rounded off is about
  240 miles....
  Now if you were to model this in exact scale (of 240 Miles)
  in H.O. including all yards,stations,signals,switches,bridges,etc.
  you would need 2.75 REAL miles to do it in. This of course
  because of its size would have to be a outdoor operation
  (Hmmm more prototypically correct?) and Lord only knows
  how many people you would need to build and operate it and what the
  costs would be for supplies and electrical bills(a 1:87 PRR NEC
  electric bill.) You really would need a Wilmington shops
  and Penn coach yard to keep it going too.Now this would really
  be a Colossus!

  Well enough of this light hearted rambling....

  Anyone got 2.75 miles of real estate to spare?  LOL

                                 Til Later
                                 Hank Mummert


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From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:53:59 -0800

Jerry--I have several BK #6 turnouts in code 70 in use in my yards.  I
like them a lot, and I prefer to use just the point/frog.  Although I
have to file the stock rails where they are contacted by the points,
this lets the rails flow right into the turnout.  Next best thing to
laying everything by hand.  Also, with everything in guage, I have no
difficulty with shorts affecting the DCC system.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:14:23 -0500
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] running the k4



Greg Stone wrote:

>     My real dream would be to see her under the coaling tower at Renovo.

Mine would be to see her running up the Fort Wayne Line pulling Tuscan
Red heavyweights. it is extremely unlikely to happen but I can dream! :)

Patrick

-- 
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of
the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a
patent yet." 
   -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky
PRRT&HS #6713
============================================================================

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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:50:29 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] A running K-4


 Hi again all...

  Perhaps we should ask Bill Knepper about this...but what about the 
  possibility of running 1361 between York and New Freedom on the
  former PRR Northern Central. 1361 has been there before....both
  in PRR days and during the 1980's. And this line is'nt under
  Conrail..Er Norfolk Southern control.

  Ehhh it could happen. The'll find someplace for her to run.
  Hmmm it be fitting for her to run on NJT's Jersey lines again
  as in days of old.

                                Til Later
                                Hank Mummert


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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 23:18:48 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Colossus

Hank - Because you're trying so hard and those were all worthy guesses I'm 
going to give you a little clue. It does have something to do with bridges. I 
have been told but am not sure that it is the last of it's kind still in 
operation. In fact it is very easy to see. That's it for clues. Jerry will be 
able to post the answer shortly before Savannah. One person immediately 
guessed and has already sent out a deposit even though we don't have the 
faintest idea what it will cost. We don't want any more orders until the 
prototype is finished.
Dayna

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Subject: Re: [PRR] running the k4
From: Fred G Rea <fredrea@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 00:31:15 EST

Why not the Panhandle.  The Ohio Central has a bunch of tuscan (well
almost tuscan) heavyweights and they  run steam!

Fred Rea
Columbus OH

________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 00:40:32 -0500
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] running the k4



Fred G Rea wrote:
> 
> Why not the Panhandle.  The Ohio Central has a bunch of tuscan (well
> almost tuscan) heavyweights and they  run steam!

How easy would it be to transport 1361 from Altoona to a place where it
could run on the Ohio Central? What requirements would NS demand? I
think a good number of excursions would be needed to justify taking the
K4s so far from home and making it worthwhile. It couldn't be taken back
into its own bed each night.

Patrick

-- 
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of
the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a
patent yet." 
   -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky
PRRT&HS #6713
============================================================================

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From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:46:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track

Jerry, the big visual difference between Code 100 and 83 is not the rail. 
It's the attachment clips holding the rail to the tie strip. The Atlas 100 
has a big block as a spike which stands out in closeups. Take a look at some 
Model Power Code 100. It flex's almost as nice as the Atlas is usually 
cheaper and the spike detail is much smaller. Regarding turnouts the 
Walthers/ Shinohara can be adjusted slightly by cutting the webbing between 
ties. The frog area is pretty well fixed but the rest can be changed from 
it's original configuration. Since both 83 and 100 have about the same 
turnout selection either could be used. I wouldn't worry about the visual 
difference between 83 and 100 to make a here is the 152 lb. rail and here is 
the 136 lb. rail. The difference between 83/100 and the code 70 will be 
noticible.  I can't tell you how many people have asked me after seeing the 
rr whose code 83 did I use !! They just stand there when I tell them it's all 
Code 100 just weathered and ballasted.
                                                                             
Ken McCorry

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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 05:32:41 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4

NJ Transit would be a good place for the 1361 to run, especially since the 
C&O 614 is up for sale and is not likely to be available for any trips on NJ  
Transit this year. Both are really beautiful engines. Though I am not really 
much into steam, I would kind of like to see 1361 strut her stuff at a good 
speed like I saw C&O 614, N&W611 and NKP765plus MILW 261 do, beautiful 
engines all. To add this PRR engine to these proud steeds in operation would 
be to add a t ouch of class and the PRR was a classy railroad in its day.

Jim Mancuso
Perry, NY

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:00:35 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track

In a message dated 3/2/2000 11:54:39 PM Central Standard Time, 
KEMACPRR@aol.com writes:

<< I wouldn't worry about the visual 
 difference between 83 and 100 to make a here is the 152 lb. rail and here is 
 the 136 lb. rail. The difference between 83/100 and the code 70 will be 
 noticible.  I can't tell you how many people have asked me after seeing the 
 rr whose code 83 did I use !! They just stand there when I tell them it's 
all 
 Code 100 just weathered and ballasted. >>

Although I prefer the subtle difference between code 83 and code 100, 
couldn't agree with you more about the weathering and ballasting making a big 
difference.  In addition, we so far have ramped down our industrial sidings 
from the mainline to "no ballast" (read no roadbed) without changing rail to 
code 70.  The effect of going from a heavy ballasted main line with drainage 
to a weed grown buried tie siding is achieved all with code 83 and is 
effective.  However, on my own layout I will change rail as well to "double 
the pleasure".

Bob Zoeller
Cedar Creek Central Railroad
Jackson, Wisconsin

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Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:14:03 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track

Jerry,

>Next question. We previously discussed that Code 83 would be appropriate for
>the Harrisburg station tracks. Would two of the prototype through tracks
>have remained at 155 pound rail (Code 100 equiv.) or would all ten have been
>lighter?

I will also agree that you would be better off to stick with one size rail
and to emphasize the differences with ballast.  A good example of this
would be to use a darker ballast on all sidings, and to have the ballast
cover more of the ties.  In the Harrisburg station, I would alos modle some
protoypically wet areas where steam lines have leaked and or water has
pooled.  As an additional note, apparently, Atlas has re-issued the code
100 with much more protoypical sized spike heads...or so the rumor mill
says.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry

PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com
       _               _
      / \             / \
  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
 |- _______/ O     \_______ -| |_  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  _|
 | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |
 |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_|
 | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O | |=| 0==0                      0==0 |=|




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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:30:01 -0500

Jerry:

I have to concur with Ken.  I had passenger station tracks, on a previous
layout, with code 100 mainline tracks, code 83 passing tracks, code 70 track
at the baggage/mail car storage tracks and some code 55 on the adjacent
freight tracks.  After the rail was properly weathered, you had to carefully
study the passenger tracks to see the differences.  Even the code 70 was not
easy to spot and differentiate from normal viewing distance.  The code 55
was easy to notice, though.

I no longer worry about rail size on the layout beyond three feet from
normal view unless I seriously intend to make a photo display of that
particular area.  I only use different rail sizes right up at the edge of
the layout.  I do use Model Power up front, and the Atlas in the back,
tunnels, hidden sidings etc.

On turnouts, I scratchbuild all the curved and special turnouts and turnouts
right up front and use weathered Atlas Custom Line (and others) other
places.  Once the track is in, weathered and ballasted, it is VERY difficult
to tell weather a turnout is scratchbuilt or Rivarossi, brass or nickle
silver, metal or plastic frog.  (Don't use plastic frogs in high traffic
areas, they don't wear well over the years).  If you are building a photo
diorama that will be inspected up close, in detail, then go ahead and spend
the time to make everything exact scale.

Years ago, my then 13 yr old son, without my knowledge, weathered all my
turnouts (Atlas, Shinoharra, Rivarossi, Model Power etc) by scrubbing them
with a toothbrush and detergent, rinsing and soaking them upside down in
Hobby Black in a glass baking dish, then put them in the dishwasher to clean
them off.  *Fortunately for him*, it worked.  The turnouts blackened nicely
and there has never been any corrosion on them or electrical contact
problems.  I do this routinely now, and it makes weathering a turnout easy.

Have fun!

Lew


-----Original Message-----
From: KEMACPRR@aol.com <KEMACPRR@aol.com>
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Cc: Prr-talk@dsop.com <Prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track


>Jerry, the big visual difference between Code 100 and 83 is not the rail.
>It's the attachment clips holding the rail to the tie strip. The Atlas 100
>has a big block as a spike which stands out in closeups. Take a look at
some
>Model Power Code 100. It flex's almost as nice as the Atlas is usually
>cheaper and the spike detail is much smaller. Regarding turnouts the
>Walthers/ Shinohara can be adjusted slightly by cutting the webbing between
>ties. The frog area is pretty well fixed but the rest can be changed from
>it's original configuration. Since both 83 and 100 have about the same
>turnout selection either could be used. I wouldn't worry about the visual
>difference between 83 and 100 to make a here is the 152 lb. rail and here
is
>the 136 lb. rail. The difference between 83/100 and the code 70 will be
>noticible.  I can't tell you how many people have asked me after seeing the
>rr whose code 83 did I use !! They just stand there when I tell them it's
all
>Code 100 just weathered and ballasted.
>
>Ken McCorry
>
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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:03:03 EST
Subject: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

Jerry & Folks,
Well, I'm glad to see other people besides myself use the old standard code 100, and Model Power flex, no less. I like the extreme flexiiblity of the stuff, and used to get it from Standard Hobby Supplyt for about $.89 a section. I think it's about $1.29 nowadays. It looks good, as well. Now sure where they make it now, used to be Austria and/or Jugoslavia (now Croatia).My standards have been Atlas and Peco, but nothing wrong with MP flex.
Personally, I never would have used any code 83 except that an outfit in California once sent me 60 sections of it rather than the code 100 I'd asked for. Truly, except for the large Atlas 'tie plates', the differnces are hard to spot at any range. For a while it was a status thing to use code 70, but it's way too small for Pennsy main lines, obviously.
As for the BK switches, if you want a notch in the stock rail (sometimes called a "Sampson Fit"), it's easy enough to file one in the kit version. Pecos, by the way, already come with one, another mark in their favor.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:20:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/3/00 10:03 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote:

> Well, I'm glad to see other people besides myself use the old standard code
> 100...my
> standards have been Atlas and Peco, but nothing wrong with MP flex.

Seems that most people prefer Code 100 and Atlas. Big task is weathering.

> As for the BK switches, if you want a notch in the stock rail (sometimes
> called a "Sampson Fit"), it's easy enough to file one in the kit version.
> Pecos, by the way, already come with one, another mark in their favor.

I cited wanting curved turnouts between the #6 and #8 that Shinohara offers.
Walthers Code 83, made by Shinohara, is also available in #7. From here on
out, Walthers will be the exclusive distributor of all Shinohara, under
their name, so maybe we'll see #7 in Code 100 in the future.

I could really use #6.5 and #7.5 as well. Why? My main line ends and
disappears into hidding staging. To do so, it must turn 180-degrees with an
outer radius of no more than 40". The entrance to staing is CORK
interlocking, which will provide three yard lead tracks. If I can start the
yard throat on this curve, it will significantly lengthen my stub-end yard
tracks.

The #6, if I recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".
Some sizes in the middle would bode well for meeting my needs.

---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:53:06 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

Jerry,
WHOA......what radii did you cite for those curved switchs?    "he #6, if I recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".
 Some sizes in the middle would bode well for meeting my needs."
You might want to check out those tables in Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation. I don't have it here at work (can't get away with that much), but I think the nominal radius on a number 6 is in the 60-some inch radius and a number 8 goes up around 90-100 inchs. Even the Peco curved ('large') is in the region of 36" off a 60" radius. Maybe you should post this question to the LDSIG list? Somebody over there always has this data handy.
Barry Peltier



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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 11:03:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/3/00 10:53 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote:

> WHOA......what radii did you cite for those curved switchs?    "he #6, if I
> recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".

Walthers quotes those for their Code 83, and a mail order house in the
current MR cites those for Code 100 Shinohara.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:31:49 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

In a message dated 3/3/2000 10:01:03 AM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com 
writes:

<< WHOA......what radii did you cite for those curved switchs?    "he #6, if 
I recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".
  Some sizes in the middle would bode well for meeting my needs."
 You might want to check out those tables in Armstrong's Track Planning for 
Realistic Operation. I don't have it here at work (can't get away with that 
much), but I think the nominal radius on a number 6 is in the 60-some inch 
radius and a number 8 goes up around 90-100 inchs.  >>

I think you are right on the curved leg through the frog on a standard No 6.  
However, the No. 6-1/2 curved of Walthers Shinohara  flows into  20/24inch 
radii, the No. 7 to 24/28, the No. 7-1/2 to 28/32, and the No. 8 to 32/36. I 
don't know if the frogs are curved or straight on the curved turnouts, and 
don't know what the radius is if they are curved.  Will let you know as we 
are in the process of buying and installing our first curved turnout.

BTW, Jerry, I agree with Barry.  Ask the question over on the LDSIG list.  
You might also ask how much trouble you are buying with curved turnouts, 
especially in quantity in key locations.  We are approaching it cautiously in 
a tight situation at a major mine.

Bob Zoeller

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:55:41 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

In a message dated 03/03/2000 11:11:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< Walthers quotes those for their Code 83, and a mail order house in the
 current MR cites those for Code 100 Shinohara.
 - >>
Jerry, 

Remember that Walthers and Shinohara are one and the same.  Shinohara makes 
the Walthers turnouts and simple changes the name on the back ot the finished 
product.  Only need to made dew dies for the back of the ties to accomplishe 
this.

Rich Orr

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 12:01:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/3/00 11:55 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote:

> << Walthers quotes those for their Code 83, and a mail order house in the
> current MR cites those for Code 100 Shinohara.
> - >>
> Jerry, 
> 
> Remember that Walthers and Shinohara are one and the same.  Shinohara makes
> the Walthers turnouts and simple changes the name on the back ot the finished
> product.  Only need to made dew dies for the back of the ties to accomplishe
> this.

Yes, Rich, I realize that and pointed that out in one of my other e-mails.
However, for anyone to look it up in a catalog, anything other than Code 83
is still under the Shinohara name. However, I've been told that Walthers has
secured the rights as exclusive distributor for them as of the next catalog.

The current printed Walthers catalog has them under their respective names.
However, their online catalog already has them all under the Walthers name.

Just wish they'd offer more sizes in Code 100.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:07:14 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

Bob,
Boy oh boy, are you correct about using caution on mainline curved switchs! I've got some Pecos in service, but it took some real didling to line them where I wanted them. (I'm using them in a curved cross-over). They have the nice feature of serving as something of a spiral curve, but like all such transistion curves, they have to figured into your track alignment. It's not like going from a tangent into a 36" radius curve, for example, and I was crazy enough to go from curve switch to curved switch. Looks good now, but keep your Xuron sharp! (And an old one for nipping ties).
By the way, did you guys ever notice that horrendous kink, using a Shinohara, in the track section of the Walthers catalog? I think it's on the first page of the Walthers track section. Heck, these guys make the darn things and even they couldn't  get it to line up!
Have fun, but lay aside a little extra time.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: LeeRainey@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:26:09 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser

In a message dated 2/24/2000 4:29:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
mittner@webtv.net writes:

<< he additional info Rick brings up leads me to this answer. Now we
 must build a Locomotive Test Plant similar to the one the PRR used in
 Altoona to figure out the scale tractive effort. In HO scale proportions
 of course. <G>....Gary >>

I seem to recall Gordon Odegaard doing this in Model Railroader about 1960 -- 
used a hanging spring scale like you would weigh a fish with.

Hmmm.

Nothing new under the sun.

Lee Rainey

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From: LeeRainey@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:07:16 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Serious business

In a message dated 2/21/2000 9:08:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
velure@surfnj.net writes:

<< Modelers have a minor interest in the Prototype,
 in that they only need to know the color of the locomotives, the types of
 equipment used and the time frames they operated in, and also typical
 traffic routings and types.  when you start getting into the minutiae of
 operations and super detail information, such as the locomotive XXXX was the
 only one to have the XXXX, the modelers turn a deaf ear.  >>

I am not sure what modelers you are thinking of, but that is not the case 
here. The pursuit of this kind of detail is the main reason I belong to BOTH 
this on-line group and the PRRT&HS -- and will continue to do so.

Lee Rainey
PRRT&HS 6009
PRR in S scale

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 13:42:53 -0500
Subject: [PRR] ROY Interlocking
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

With regards to ROY interlocking at Royalton, Pa. (Middletown) where the
main line and the Columbia Branch join on their way to Harrisburg...

When was the Columbia Branch reduced from two tracks to one?

The interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site shows it as one track. The
diagram is marked revised as of 1962.

Triumph II contains a diagram which shows both tracks.

Per usual, am trying to substantiate status as of 1954.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK, curved turnouts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 17:17:03 -0500

I've been using curved turnouts since 1965.  I prefer them for yard leads
because they really l@@k good!  :-)  They are also great for "compacting"
passing sidings, yard leads etc, where space is at a premium.  I've used
commercially made and scratchbuilt ones and have had no more problems with
the curved turnouts than with straight turnouts (except for some early Model
Power brass w/plastic frog).   In operation, I noticed that the segment of
arc with a curved turnout is so short that the radius doesn't really make a
lot of difference for the wide minimum radius equipment I own.  If you are
running a rigid frame S2 it might, but my P5s, L6, L5, T1s, J1, GG1s and
Milw Little Joe can negotiate all my #6, #8 et al curved turnouts at speed.

I prefer to build straight frog curved turnouts for large radii crossovers
only because they are easier to build.  I built a curved frog #3 for an
industrial area that works rather well.  The curved points are designed to
be a short spiral easement into the tighter radius frog area.  When you buy
or make a curved turnout, you *gotta* check every clearance carefully and
gage everything.  Make sure the sharp end of the point on the outside curve
nestles into the rail very well because a wheel will have more opportunity
to pick the point on the outside of a curve than any other area.  Same with
the curved frog point, but not so much the straight frog in a curved
turnout.  If you have trouble with flanges picking the outside curve point,
do what the real RRs do, put a guard rail just before the inside curve point
to keep the wheels from bearing too tightly on the outside.

Lew Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com <Bobspf@aol.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK


>In a message dated 3/3/2000 10:01:03 AM Central Standard Time,
BPX29@aol.com
>writes:
>
><< WHOA......what radii did you cite for those curved switchs?    "he #6,
if
>I recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".
>  Some sizes in the middle would bode well for meeting my needs."
> You might want to check out those tables in Armstrong's Track Planning for
>Realistic Operation. I don't have it here at work (can't get away with that
>much), but I think the nominal radius on a number 6 is in the 60-some inch
>radius and a number 8 goes up around 90-100 inchs.  >>
>
>I think you are right on the curved leg through the frog on a standard No
6.
>However, the No. 6-1/2 curved of Walthers Shinohara  flows into  20/24inch
>radii, the No. 7 to 24/28, the No. 7-1/2 to 28/32, and the No. 8 to 32/36.
I
>don't know if the frogs are curved or straight on the curved turnouts, and
>don't know what the radius is if they are curved.  Will let you know as we
>are in the process of buying and installing our first curved turnout.
>
>BTW, Jerry, I agree with Barry.  Ask the question over on the LDSIG list.
>You might also ask how much trouble you are buying with curved turnouts,
>especially in quantity in key locations.  We are approaching it cautiously
in
>a tight situation at a major mine.
>
>Bob Zoeller
>
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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:45:02 EST
Subject: [PRR] Colossus

List - In last nights postings someone mentioned that after Colossus we were 
going to take a look at tenders and while I have been in touch with a few of 
the finest model makers around it is still in the "thinking about it stage". 
We have been provided some fine photographs but nothing is set in stone. We 
will let you know as soon as it is. Dayna

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:55:03 -0500
From: Dany Seymour <dannysey@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: [PRR] Track Pans

I am installing a track pan on my railroad.  My question is - what type
of indicators were used to locate the pans and for the firemen to lower
and raise the scoop?

Dan Seymour
Visit the Shark River & Western Railway at

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4374/

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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:01:18 -0500

I agree! Anyone else want to see 1361 storm out of South Amboy and run down
the NY&LB like days of old? It's just too bad she couldn't take over from a
G!
----- Original Message -----
From: <GenJim833@aol.com>
To: <bubbles@visi.net>; <PRR-TALK@dsop.com>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4


> NJ Transit would be a good place for the 1361 to run, especially since the
> C&O 614 is up for sale and is not likely to be available for any trips on
NJ
> Transit this year. Both are really beautiful engines. Though I am not
really
> much into steam, I would kind of like to see 1361 strut her stuff at a
good
> speed like I saw C&O 614, N&W611 and NKP765plus MILW 261 do, beautiful
> engines all. To add this PRR engine to these proud steeds in operation
would
> be to add a t ouch of class and the PRR was a classy railroad in its day.
>
> Jim Mancuso
> Perry, NY
>
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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] More 1361 information
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:03:56 -0500

That URL should be www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs .
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 10:10 PM
Subject: [PRR] More 1361 information


> Hello list,
> 
> There's more news on K4s 1361 at www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nhrs.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> Doug
> 
> 
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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 19:19:28 -0600
From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>
Subject: [PRR] Code 100 track

Bobspf@aol.com wrote:

> BTW, Jerry, I agree with Barry.  Ask the question over on the LDSIG
list.
> You might also ask how much trouble you are buying with curved
turnouts,
> especially in quantity in key locations.  We are approaching it
cautiously in
> a tight situation at a major mine.

Hi Bob and All:

Has anyone out there ever tried curving the code 100 and code 83
Shinohara stock
#8 turnouts?  I have a number on my layout, and have been told that they
appear
to be hand laid.  If you do it right they can really look good, and also
allow
fitting turnouts into places you may not normally put them due to a lack
of a
tangent.  It's not all that hard to do, and the results are well worth
the extra
effort.  I'm not into, (politically correct for, "I'm not talented
enough to"),
hand laying custom turnouts, so taking a quality part like Shinohara and
curving
it to conform to my track alignment is just the ticket for me.

One other thing.  I also read, with a chuckle, Barry Peltier's posting
about the
"horrendous kink using a Shinohara, in the track section of the Walthers

catalog".  This is something that has bugged me for years.  I'm happy to
see that
someone else has noticed it. <VBG>

Regards,

Larry







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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:27:14 EST
Subject: [PRR] Mystery car

OK, now that we have discussed the white X29 car for battery service, I now 
see in Volume 6 of Pennsy diesel years on page 25 a white boxcar with large 
roof hatches being switched with a cut of passenger cars at the Chicago coach 
yards.  Anyone know what it is?

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 21:55:51 -0500
From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [PRR] Colossus

I'm guessing that Colossus is one of the Newark drawbridges.


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From: Paul Stumpff <urr304@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Pans
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 08:07:56 -0500

Danny:
According to my 1925 PRR rule book, no.701:
"Track troughs in service will be marked:
At entrance   -by day: white target
	         by night: lunar white light
At exit:	        -by day: yellow target
	         by night: yellow light
At middle
    [when used]- same as entrance
Out of service	-by day and night, all yellow targets and yellow lights.

Includes other rules concerning coal and water, including that when doubleheading , second engine drops first then halfway first engine does.
One engine on front, one pushing, front engine goes one third way before dropping scoop, pusher when it reaches trough.
Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio]


-----Original Message-----
From:	Dany Seymour [SMTP:dannysey@bellatlantic.net]
Sent:	Friday, March 03, 2000 6:55 PM
To:	PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:	[PRR] Track Pans

I am installing a track pan on my railroad.  My question is - what type
of indicators were used to locate the pans and for the firemen to lower
and raise the scoop?

Dan Seymour


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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] ROY Interlocking
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:56:41 -0500

Jerry:
I've checked all my books, and can't find but one picture of traffic on the
Royalton branch (at TMI ) Interesting question, as I have always thought the
branch was single track!
Cos

> With regards to ROY interlocking at Royalton, Pa. (Middletown) where the
> main line and the Columbia Branch join on their way to Harrisburg...
>
> When was the Columbia Branch reduced from two tracks to one?
>
> The interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site shows it as one track. The
> diagram is marked revised as of 1962.
>
> Triumph II contains a diagram which shows both tracks.
>
> Per usual, am trying to substantiate status as of 1954.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com



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Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:29:43 -0600 (CST)
From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)
Subject: [PRR] PRR:  Engine numbering

Question tor the historians:  If an Altoona-built engine is lettered for, and working on, a partly or wholly owned subsidiary line (i.e. New York and Long Branch or  Cleveland & Pittsburgh) is the number of the engine also a PRR number?  

Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540



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From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>
Subject: [PRR] Railfan Alert
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:00:28 -0500


Ohio and Pennsylvania Fans...  be on the lookout for another ALASKA SD70MAC
and a Central New England GP10, both heading for Conway Yard from opposite
directions.

Details on these and other really neat photo opportunities on the
"OS/Sightings" page at:

www.forcomm.net/flagstop





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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:52:52 -0500

Yes, a running K-4 would be awesome!  I, too, have seen all these
locomotives and found them to be really impressive.  However, the museum in
Altoona owns the locomotive and will want to use it to attract visitors
and/or revenue for the museum, so they might be reluctant to loan it out too
often.  Not to mention that I can't imagine a steam engine turning a profit
in today's world - just costs too much to keep them running.  However, the
museum has been good at raising $$$, and there's a lot of abandoned former
PRR right of way around Altoona where track could be laid.  Or talk NS into
making the line to Hollidaysburg available to them.  Not that NS is very
flexible, but money talks in American business.  Just my $0.02 worth!

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

-----Original Message-----
From: GenJim833@aol.com <GenJim833@aol.com>
To: bubbles@visi.net <bubbles@visi.net>; PRR-TALK@dsop.com
<PRR-TALK@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4


>NJ Transit would be a good place for the 1361 to run, especially since the
>C&O 614 is up for sale and is not likely to be available for any trips on
NJ
>Transit this year. Both are really beautiful engines. Though I am not
really
>much into steam, I would kind of like to see 1361 strut her stuff at a good
>speed like I saw C&O 614, N&W611 and NKP765plus MILW 261 do, beautiful
>engines all. To add this PRR engine to these proud steeds in operation
would
>be to add a t ouch of class and the PRR was a classy railroad in its day.
>
>Jim Mancuso
>Perry, NY
>
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From: "Steven Bundick" <sbundick@ezy.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re:  ROY Interlocking
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:07:43 -0500

Jerry-

I've got an interlocking diagram of ROY dated 1-1-1957. It shows two tracks
on the Columbia branch.  It must have been single tracked between 57 and 62.
It's actually labeled 'ROY Block Station', not interlocking.  That may
explain why all of the switches are hand operated. I can send you a scan if
you'd like.

-Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
To: PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 1:49 PM
Subject: [PRR] ROY Interlocking


>With regards to ROY interlocking at Royalton, Pa. (Middletown) where the
>main line and the Columbia Branch join on their way to Harrisburg...
>
>When was the Columbia Branch reduced from two tracks to one?
>
>The interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site shows it as one track. The
>diagram is marked revised as of 1962.
>
>Tri