From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:38:14 EST
Subject: [PRR] opps  that snuck by me...

Hey Yuze Gize,

Did anyone notice that Accrual snuck one in on us?  They are no producing a 
close stand in for the X-54 and X-54A.  If you are not familiar with this 
class it is a 40 foot plug Door box car.  The kit is close but not a dead 
ringer.  <A HREF="http://www.elnet.com/~accurail/art/3100/3102.jpg">ACCRAIL 
X-54 Stand in</A>    Check it out!  I will let you guys figure out the 
differences, so look close and let's PRR-Talk...

Thank Stu Thayer for finding this one for you all.

Greg Martin  

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From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil
Subject: [PRR] Allegheny and South Side RR
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:15:32 -0800 

Hi all,  I was wondering if any Pittsburgh-familiar folks know anything
about the PRR's "Allegheny and South Side Railroad".  What little I know is
that by the 40's it was a single-track running from PRR's 21st Street Yard
adjacent to the P&LE tracks on the South Side west to the Pittsburgh
Terminal Warehouse Transfer operation near the Liberty Bridge.  Through the
years it appears to keep its separate identity, although it is included as
PRR track in all the track charts, etc.  It served a number of big
industries, including Levinson Steel, Oliver Iron & Steel,
Mackintosh-Hemphill Co. - Garrison Works, and Republic Steel's Dilworth
Porter Division.  Although sometimes included as part of PRR's "Whitehall
Branch", it is also sometimes refered to seperately.  I remember PRR locos
(SW-1s due to tight curves) exclusively, but that may have not always been
the case.  The P&LE both interchanged with, and, I believe(!), crossed the
A&SS to get at these industries, but I can find no decent detailed track
chart (9868 is not detailed) of the operation.  It has disappeared now,
although you can still find portions of track buried in the asphalt in
places.  
   Does anyone know how this RR was integrated into PRR?  Was it a RR in
name only?  Did they ever maintain separate facilities or equipment?  Was it
co-owned, like the Monongahela or PC&Y?  Are there any photos out there?
The old plat maps for the South Side do not show it.  Any info would be
appreciated. Thanks,
Elden

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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:03:16 EST
Subject: [PRR] Ohio Connecting Bridge

I was reading through the two books by Ken Kobus and Jack Consoli about the 
PRR in the Pittsburgh area, and was intrigued by the construction of the Ohio 
Connecting bridge.

In the book it stated that when the span over the main channel of the river 
was constructed, additional framework was built in the opposite direction to 
balance the bridge spans until they could be connected.  Looking at the 
photos I noticed that this temporary framework looks identical to the 
construction of the main span itself. 

By comparing the dates for construction of the main span versus the 
construction of the span over the back channel a few months later, I have 
come to form a theory that the balancing framework for the main channel span 
is actually the material for the span over the back channel, and that once 
the main span was completed, the balancing framework was dismantled, moved to 
the other end of the bridge and re-erected as the back channel span.

Is that what happened?  If so, that's a heck of a solution to that particular 
problem.

Rick Rowlands



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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
Subject: [PRR] Big Hook
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:37:27 -0500 

Listers,

Can the Athearn "big hook" 200t crane pass for anything the PRR had?

On the same topic did steam powered cranes carry there own supply of coal
and water?  If it was carried in a tender how did the coal get to the crane
(bucket and shovel) What about the water?

Chris

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Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:44:42 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Ohio Connecting Bridge

--- BigHookX45@aol.com wrote:
> I was reading through the two books by Ken Kobus and
> Jack Consoli about the 
> PRR in the Pittsburgh area,
<snip>
> In the book it stated that when the span over the
> main channel of the river 
> was constructed, additional framework was built in
> the opposite direction to 
> balance the bridge spans until they could be
> connected.
<snip>
> I have 
> come to form a theory that the balancing framework
> for the main channel span 
> is actually the material for the span over the back
> channel, and that once 
> the main span was completed, the balancing framework
> was dismantled, moved to 
> the other end of the bridge and re-erected as the
> back channel span.
> 
> Is that what happened?  If so, that's a heck of a
> solution to that particular 
> problem.

I agree it does sound complicated. But the Corps of
Engineers takes a very dim view of blocking navigation
on the Ohio or any inland waterway, as would have been
the case had they built falsework to support the
incomplete main truss while it was under construction.

An alternative would have been to build the falsework
on a group of barges, build the truss on that
falsework, then float the whole assembly into place,
install the span, then float the falsework away. That
may not have been a choice, perhaps because the truss
was too big to allow it or perhaps even that would
have blocked river traffic for an unacceptable period.



=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:53:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Big Hook

Chris,
I can't speak for the Athearn crane (I've got one myself I haven't assembled 
yet), but isn't that a diesel version? I haven't taken a look at it for quite 
some time, but it seems to be nicely-done.
Steam cranes sometimes had tenders, often from smaller scrapped locos, but 
many, like the Tichey model, had coal bunkers built into the back of the cab. 
Water tanks (someone help me out here) were sometimes in the frame for 
additional ballasting as well as water supply, but I'd guess there were a 
number of variations. MRING or RMJ had an article on prototypes for the 
Tichey a while back and I don't recall if Pennsy was one of them. To my 
mind's eye, the athearn looks more Pennsyish, but that's purely subjective.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:36:06 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Big Hook

Chris, Berry and all,

I think the problem is in the siaze of the boom and not the shell/cab.  The Boom when compared to a good photo of a Pennsy 250 ton Derrick is small throught the girth. With a new boom it would probably fly otherwise...

Greg Martin

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:40:09 EST
Subject: [PRR] Big Hook

  Following originally sent to wrong list.

In a message dated 3/1/2000 1:44:13 PM Central Standard Time, 
cpc1@westchestergov.com writes:

<< Can the Athearn "big hook" 200t crane pass for anything the PRR had? >>

PRR had no 200 ton cranes.  They bought six 250 ton cranes after acquiring 
the J1s.  My understanding (I haven't studied plans) is that the biggest 
difference is in the dimensions of the boom.  
I believe the Tichy 120 ton crane is accurate for the Pennsy version of that 
size.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:30:45 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

Hello list,

My April Model Railroader arrived today.  Intermountain's HO USRA
composite gondola was reviewed; the review said that PRR had 750 of
these cars built for them, and that they eventually got steel sides and
had the hopper bottoms removed.

I wanted to figure out what PRR class this was (I know more about motive
power than about rolling stock, so this became convoluted).  I looked in
both PRR freight car color guides from Morning Sun.  I found only one
shot that appears to match; it's on page 46 of Volume I; it shows a G29c
with steel sides in the shadow keystone scheme.

Rob's PRR page has a diagram of the class and numbers, which may come in
handy.  His page had car numbers and said that Sunshine models made
resin kits of the G29c.

Also in the April MR, this time on page 126, is Lifelike's announcement
of a Proto 1000 USRA 50 ton drop bottome composite gondola.

Now for my questions to the list.  How late did the wooden sided G29
gondolas last (assuming I'm correct on the car's class)?  When were the
drop bottoms removed?

I'd be interested in modelling a G29 circa 1948 (naturally, with my
favorite circle keystone scheme).

Thanks in advance!

Doug


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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:38:21 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Answers to questions no one asked....

Hello list,

I just received another batch of old Model Railroaders from my
grandfather.  On page 25 of the December 1973 issue is a review of the
Lambert PRR H6sb in HO scale.  I was somewhat surprised that my engine
is just 3 years younger than I am....

In the January 1967 issue on pages 48-50 is an article on
scratchbuilding steam locomotive frames that's different from all of the
other approaches I've seen.  The article was written for HO scale, and
the basic idea is using a piece of brass channel that's 1/2" by 3/8" by
1/16.  The 1/2" dimension is for the width of the frame.  The author cut
holes in the frame for the gear/gearbox, axle slots, and used Mantua
driver bearings.

I wonder if brass channel like this is still available?  I like the idea
of this approach because the brass channel is already square, versus a
built up frame that I'd have to solder and somehow keep square
(machining not being my strong suit at present).

Doug


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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:43:45 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] More in the April MR

Hello list,

I noticed a few more things in my April MR.  On page 48, there's a shot
of Westerfield's G22b with a one piece body casting and Youngstown bulk
cement containers in the shadow keystone scheme.  Also, on page 52,
there's a color photo of NKP Car Co.'s 21 roomette PRR sleepers.  They
look nice, but I know little about them (the New York and Long Branch
was rich in P70s and poor in sleepers).

Doug


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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:33:36 -0500
From: Bob Colquitt <wahsatch@vaix.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Answers to questions no one asked....

Doug & List,
  Contact 'Special Shapes' @ http://www.specialshapes.com/ & they might
mill a channel if there is enough interest. The largest channel they
offer now is 1/2" by 3/16" with 1/32" wall.
--Bob

"doug.kisala" wrote:
> 
> In the January 1967 issue on pages 48-50 is an article on
> scratchbuilding steam locomotive frames that's different from all of the
> other approaches I've seen.  The article was written for HO scale, and
> the basic idea is using a piece of brass channel that's 1/2" by 3/8" by
> 1/16.  The 1/2" dimension is for the width of the frame.  The author cut
> holes in the frame for the gear/gearbox, axle slots, and used Mantua
> driver bearings.
> 
> I wonder if brass channel like this is still available?  I like the idea
> of this approach because the brass channel is already square, versus a
> built up frame that I'd have to solder and somehow keep square
> (machining not being my strong suit at present).

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:02:15 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] K4s 1361 restoration photos at Steam Central

Hello list,

Steam Central (www.Steamcentral.com) has a new page on K4s 1361's
restoration.  There are several nice photos.  Enjoy!

Doug


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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:59:30 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Big Hook

In a message dated 00-03-01 18:01:11 EST, you write:

> Chris,
>  I can't speak for the Athearn crane (I've got one myself I haven't 
assembled 
> 
>  yet), but isn't that a diesel version? I haven't taken a look at it for 
> quite 
>  some time, but it seems to be nicely-done.
>  Steam cranes sometimes had tenders, often from smaller scrapped locos, but 
>  many, like the Tichey model, had coal bunkers built into the back of the 
cab.
>  
>  Water tanks (someone help me out here) were sometimes in the frame for 
>  additional ballasting as well as water supply, but I'd guess there were a 
>  number of variations. MRING or RMJ had an article on prototypes for the 
>  Tichey a while back and I don't recall if Pennsy was one of them. To my 
>  mind's eye, the athearn looks more Pennsyish, but that's purely subjective.
>  Regards,
>  Barry Peltier

I've never seen a wrecking derrick with additional water supply in the frame. 
 Water tanks were usually alongside the boiler, coal on the operators side 
and water on the left side.  Additional weight was not needed, or wanted, in 
the frame as it did not help in stabilizing the crane.  At 380,000 lbs. for a 
250 tonner they were too heavy as it was! 

Rick

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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:06:16 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Big Hook

In a message dated 00-03-01 20:52:07 EST, you write:

> PRR had no 200 ton cranes.  They bought six 250 ton cranes after acquiring 
>  the J1s.  My understanding (I haven't studied plans) is that the biggest 
>  difference is in the dimensions of the boom.  
>  I believe the Tichy 120 ton crane is accurate for the Pennsy version of 
that 
> 
>  size.

The major differences between an Industrial Brownhoist 200 ton steam crane 
and an older IB 250 ton crane are:

1) weight 356,000 vs. 366,000 to 380,000 lbs.
2) cable size  1" vs. 1 1/4"
3) length of boom and strengthening.
4) carbody was a little longer.

As you can see, there isn't much difference between the two capacities.  The 
engines were the same size, and there were only minor detail variations 
between the machinery of the 200  vs. the 250.   Now the later IB 250 tonners 
built in the 1940s and later were much longer, had larger wheelbase trucks, 
and were in the neighborhood of 390,000 lbs.  These had welded booms and some 
had three hooks.

I used to own a 250 ton steam derrick, and now own a 200 ton steamer, so I 
have a little firsthand knowlege of these beasts.

Rick Rowlands

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From: "Walt Prusick" <walpru@stargate.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:23:56 -0800
Subject: [PRR] 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF83CC.D578E420
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Doug and list,
Look at same book, top page 55. You can have your gon and paint scheme =
too. Even appears to have the sides redone in metal. BTW, that project I =
was working on utilizing the IHC composite gons to recreate a G29c, well =
it didn't work out. Guess I will have to spend the cash for a decent =
model.

Walt P.=20

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF83CC.D578E420
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Doug and list,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Look at same book, top page 55. You can =
have your=20
gon and paint scheme too. Even appears to have the sides redone in =
metal. BTW,=20
that project I was working on utilizing the IHC composite gons to =
recreate a=20
G29c, well it didn't work out. Guess I will have to spend the cash for a =
decent=20
model.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt =
P.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF83CC.D578E420--


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:35:09 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

The G29 and its subclasses are far too new to be USRA cars.  They were built 
in the 30's and 40's.  The G29a, G29b, G29c and G29d were composite cars 
built to comply with the "less steel" requirements of WWII.

Rich Orr

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:52:42 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

In a message dated 3/1/2000 11:51:55 PM Central Standard Time, 
SUVCWORR@aol.com writes:

<< The G29 and its subclasses are far too new to be USRA cars.  They were 
built 
 in the 30's and 40's.  The G29a, G29b, G29c and G29d were composite cars 
 built to comply with the "less steel" requirements of WWII. >>

I was also confused by how the 42 foot USRA car could become a 46 foot G29.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 06:23:16 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] problems with the mail
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 2/29/00 9:20 PM, lew matt at (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote:

> I can't get into the conference web page and also can't send you this info
> by regular e-mail.....
> 
Unless you've been living under a rock, I made numerous announcements that
access would be sporadic from 2/28-29 as my site was converted from a 56K
line to SDSL. That connection is now complete and there should be no further
interruptions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 06:28:22 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Train Meet in Harrisburg This Sunday
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Just want to pass along the reminder that this Sunday, March 5, is the
annual train meet at the Zembo Mosque in Harrisburg, from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m.
The event is sponsored by the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS.

I'll be there...two tables and the overhead "www.pennsyrr.com" sign. Stop by
and say hello.

P.S. Will have the new Bethlehem Car Works PRR TrucTrain trailers on hand,
as well as the new E-R Models RF-16 freight sharks, including the new
CORRECT five-stripe version. These latter models are a significant
improvement over the older Roco/Model Power units and deserve a close look!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] problems with the mail
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:49:35 -0500

Yes Jerry, I have been living under a rock.  I just got back from traveling
and I'm wading through over 500 messages.  Thanks for your understanding.

Lew


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
To: lew matt <lmatt@alltel.net>; PRR talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] problems with the mail


>On 2/29/00 9:20 PM, lew matt at (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote:
>
>> I can't get into the conference web page and also can't send you this
info
>> by regular e-mail.....
>>
>Unless you've been living under a rock, I made numerous announcements that
>access would be sporadic from 2/28-29 as my site was converted from a 56K
>line to SDSL. That connection is now complete and there should be no
further
>interruptions.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS
>
>"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
>Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
>products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
>the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
>Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
>providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
>our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
>------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
>
>


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From: SNY114@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:41:10 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR USRA gondolas

Hi all.

I'm pretty sure that the USRA gonds were class G24 on the Pennsy. Initially 
they were all assigned to one of the Lines West roads. Unfortunately, I don't 
have time right now to look up more info on them like road numbers, length of 
service, etc. If nobody does that by this weekend I can probably do it then.


Jim Anderson
Thorndale, PA
sny114@aol.com
PRRT&HS 3995
Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 07:55:12 -0500
From: Park Varieties <parkvarieties@provide.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

The USRA gons were class G24 on the Pennsy.  There is an article on these cars
in the February, 2000 issue of Railmodel Journal which has the only picture I
have
seen in print of a G24.  Article mentions that 200 of the original allocation
went
to the LIRR and by the 1930's, many of the former LIRR cars were equipped
with racks for auto frame loading.  By the eraly 1950's the auto frame racks
had
been removed.  Steel sides were applied to the cars after only 10 years of
service
and at the same time the bottom doors were removed.  I have had conversations
with the folks at Intermountain and they plan to issue a PRR version of their
USRA gon with steel sides in the "near future".

Frank Brua

Bobspf@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/1/2000 11:51:55 PM Central Standard Time,
> SUVCWORR@aol.com writes:
>
> << The G29 and its subclasses are far too new to be USRA cars.  They were
> built
>  in the 30's and 40's.  The G29a, G29b, G29c and G29d were composite cars
>  built to comply with the "less steel" requirements of WWII. >>
>
> I was also confused by how the 42 foot USRA car could become a 46 foot G29.
>
> Bob Zoeller
>
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:09:05 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR USRA gondolas

In a message dated 3/2/2000 6:51:48 AM Central Standard Time, SNY114@aol.com 
writes:

<< I'm pretty sure that the USRA gonds were class G24 on the Pennsy. 
Initially 
 they were all assigned to one of the Lines West roads.  >>

The 1953 ORER still lists 263 G24s in service, though they were all steel by 
that time.

Bob Zoeller

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:17:20 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

In a message dated 3/2/2000 6:54:14 AM Central Standard Time, 
parkvarieties@provide.net writes:

<< I have had conversations
 with the folks at Intermountain and they plan to issue a PRR version of their
 USRA gon with steel sides in the "near future". >>

That is great news and shows another good reason for the way they designed 
the kit with separate side inserts, the other being there is nothing like 
weathering a real wood interior--looks great.  That is why I replace my 
floors on flats (like the Sunshine FM)with real wood planking .  I have the 
IMC car in CB&Q and will likely get a Milwaukee car.

BTW, Sunshine also has (or at least had)  the kit for the WWII war emergency 
52'6" gon with wood sides, G30 on the Pennsy.

Bob Zoeller 

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From: "Rob Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:25:37 -0500

Hi all,

The Intermountain car is definitely class G24.  I'm about 3/4 of the way
through
building one of them (another RR) and it is a great looking kit!   I don't
think
Intermountain has announced them in PRR yet but I'd guess they will...

For some more info check out..
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G24

Unfortunately Rich's roster data on the page doesn't differentiate between
composite and steel sided cars...

(The Sunshine G29 kits are very nice too, but are of a totally different
car!)

Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 9:26 PM
Subject: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO


>Hello list,
>
>My April Model Railroader arrived today.  Intermountain's HO USRA
>composite gondola was reviewed; the review said that PRR had 750 of
>these cars built for them, and that they eventually got steel sides and
>had the hopper bottoms removed.
>
>I wanted to figure out what PRR class this was (I know more about motive
>power than about rolling stock, so this became convoluted).  I looked in
>both PRR freight car color guides from Morning Sun.  I found only one
>shot that appears to match; it's on page 46 of Volume I; it shows a G29c
>with steel sides in the shadow keystone scheme.
>
>Rob's PRR page has a diagram of the class and numbers, which may come in
>handy.  His page had car numbers and said that Sunshine models made
>resin kits of the G29c.
>
>Also in the April MR, this time on page 126, is Lifelike's announcement
>of a Proto 1000 USRA 50 ton drop bottome composite gondola.
>
>Now for my questions to the list.  How late did the wooden sided G29
>gondolas last (assuming I'm correct on the car's class)?  When were the
>drop bottoms removed?
>
>I'd be interested in modelling a G29 circa 1948 (naturally, with my
>favorite circle keystone scheme).
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Doug
>
>
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From: "Bill Laird" <blaird@gvtc.com>
Subject: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:17:02 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Trainstuff has announced their "Colossus Project" on their web site.  It =
simply says "if you are a Pennsy fan you won't want to miss this, it is =
museum quality and bigger than a bread box".  They go on to say that it =
will be debuted at the Savannah Prototype Modeler's Show March 24-25.

Anyone know what this is?

Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, Texas



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Trainstuff has announced their =
&quot;Colossus=20
Project&quot; on their web site.&nbsp; It simply says &quot;if you are a =
Pennsy=20
fan you won't want to miss this, it is museum quality and bigger than a =
bread=20
box&quot;.&nbsp; They go on to say that it will be debuted at the =
Savannah=20
Prototype Modeler's Show March 24-25.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Anyone know what this =
is?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bill Laird</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Canyon Lake, Texas</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF8441.3760E1A0--


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:32:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

 Bill Laird wrote:
  
Trainstuff has announced their "Colossus Project" on their web site. 
It simply says "if you are a Pennsy fan you won't want to miss this, it
is museum quality and bigger than a bread box".  They go on to say
that it will be debuted at the Savannah Prototype Modeler's Show March
24-25.
 
Anyone know what this is? <end snip>

I say:

Hmmmm, Bigger than a bread box. I assume this is HO scale? A breadbox is
pretty big, assuming it is not an HO Scale breadbox. I will take a
guess, (my own personal wishs). Either a PRR Style Coaling Tower or a
PRR Roundhouse! Those are both bigger than a Breadbox, real or HO sale
size. <G>..... Gary.   
 
 
  




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:54:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Gary Mittner wrote:

> Hmmmm, Bigger than a bread box. I assume this is HO scale? A breadbox is
> pretty big, assuming it is not an HO Scale breadbox. I will take a
> guess, (my own personal wishs). Either a PRR Style Coaling Tower or a
> PRR Roundhouse! Those are both bigger than a Breadbox, real or HO sale
> size. <G>..... Gary.   

How big is a breadbox? ;-) Is a set of Centipedes back to back bigger? 

-D



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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:01:49 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/2/00 1:32 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote:

> Trainstuff has announced their "Colossus Project" on their web site. 
> It simply says "if you are a Pennsy fan you won't want to miss this, it
> is museum quality and bigger than a bread box".  They go on to say
> that it will be debuted at the Savannah Prototype Modeler's Show March
> 24-25.
>  
> Anyone know what this is? <end snip>
> 
> I say:
> 
> Hmmmm, Bigger than a bread box. I assume this is HO scale? A breadbox is
> pretty big, assuming it is not an HO Scale breadbox. I will take a
> guess, (my own personal wishs). Either a PRR Style Coaling Tower or a
> PRR Roundhouse! Those are both bigger than a Breadbox, real or HO sale
> size. <G>..... Gary.

They aren't even clueing in the dealer network. However, since it is being
unveiled at a "Prototype" show, it would seem that it is probably based on a
true prototype.

Roundhouses and coaling towers came in many forms on the PRR, almost as many
as towers. (Thankfully we have Bob Strong to build us any tower we want!)

My guess is a station component. Since TrainStuff is located in the
northeast (Mass., I believe) and they are all modelers of NE lines, I'm
thinking its going to be from the eastern end of the PRR.

It's also cited as "museum quality". Hmmm. Could it be? No! Not Penn
Station!!!  ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:33:49 -0500 


Well according to the Phila Chapter newsletter They're producing MP54's in
coach, baggage coach, and baggage mail along with a 90F82 tender for the
Bowser I1. The newsletter also states Miracle is working on Centipedes!

Chris Chany

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From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:50:49 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

My guess would be a Centipede. will be interesting to see what they use for a 
drive.
                                                                       Ken 
McCorry

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:36:06 -0500
Subject: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

I checked the archives, but could not find a good answer to my current
question, even though we discussed all around it a few months back.

Looking to build my mainline in Code 100 w/brown ties. I need some curved
turnouts and I'd like to use the ready-made type. Walthers/Shinohara makes
them in #6 and #8, but I need something in between, even in 1/2 sizes, if
possible. Any recommendations? What about BK Engineering, anyone have
experience with them?

Next question. We previously discussed that Code 83 would be appropriate for
the Harrisburg station tracks. Would two of the prototype through tracks
have remained at 155 pound rail (Code 100 equiv.) or would all ten have been
lighter?

Would the step-down to lighter rail have occured AFTER the yard throat or
BEFORE? In other words, should my turnouts be Code 100 or Code 83?

May even step down to some Code 70 for some of the very light industry in
the area. We'll see what all fits. Thanks!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:14:31 EST
Subject: [PRR] Manhattan Transfer

Where were engines serviced that came off for the DD1's at M. T.?  How far 
away was it?

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 08:59:52 -0500
From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 21 Roomette Passenger Car

Ted,

PS never made any 21 rmts for the PRR.  Most were made by Budd.  Those
at the lower end of the alphabet were made by ACF.  The Budd cars had a
unique "paneled" side.  It was stainless steel, but not fluted.  It did
have the usual Budd fluted roof with the two heavy ribs down the top. 
The ACF cars were smooth side.  I believe the NKP is doing the Budd
version of the car.  It was the more numerous.

I have a NKP Prod C&O 10-6 Pullman yet to be built.  The sides are
etched nickel plated brass.  As such they have a lovely stainless steel
shine, but I suspect the depth of the fluting is shallow.  I believe the
USP gets their fluting closer to the right depth.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

===================================================

"Andrews, Ted" wrote:
> 
> Gentlemen:
> 
> In the latest MR that arrived yesterday, NKP Products had an advertisement
> of their new model, the 21-roomette passenger car in HO scale. I do not have
> the ad in front of me but I believe it is the Pullman Standard version. The
> photo of the model looks very, very good.
> 
> Has anyone built NKP cars before? Are they similar to using the Union
> Station Products car sides and the ECW "core" kit?
> 
> The 21-Roomette car was widely used on the PRR from the late 40's on. In my
> 1948 passenger timetable, this car could be found on nearly all of the Blue
> Ribbon Fleet including the Broadway Limited. This will be a great model to
> have.
> 
> Start stockin' em, Jerry!!
> 
> Ted Andrews
> Carmel, Indiana
> 
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From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: [PRR] Do we have a problem ?
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 05:53:22 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I for one can't get into Jerry's machine.....and I haven't seen any mail =
from anyone  on the list ? All the other list work fine, so whats up ?


Bill  Knepper
PRRT&HS # 1818

(boxcar46@nfdc.net)
End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.

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<HTML>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old Style">I for one can't =
get into=20
Jerry's machine.....and I haven't seen any mail from anyone&nbsp; on the =
list ?=20
All the other list work fine, so whats up ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old Style"><BR>Bill&nbsp;=20
Knepper<BR>PRRT&amp;HS # 1818</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"Bookman Old Style">(<A=20
href=3D"mailto:boxcar46@nfdc.net">boxcar46@nfdc.net</A>)<BR>End of the =
NCR tracks,=20
New Freedom, Pa.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:10:01 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] More 1361 information

Hello list,

There's more news on K4s 1361 at www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nhrs.

Enjoy!

Doug


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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 15:53:44 -0500
Subject: [PRR] How To Really Market "Colossus"
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Boy, the folks at TrainStuff must really want to sell their products. I
tried to send them e-mail using the e-mail link from their web site:

> The following message could not be delivered because the address
> custsrv@trainstuffllc.com was rejected by host trainstuffllc.com
> (209.60.16.140).
> 550 <custsrv@trainstuffllc.com>... User unknown
> 
Just think of how much business they might be missing!  ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:15:54 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

Here's a wild guess.....Centipedes!

Stuart Thayer

In a message dated Thu, 2 Mar 2000  1:17:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Bill Laird" <blaird@gvtc.com> writes:

> Trainstuff has announced their "Colossus Project" on their web site.  It simply says "if you are a Pennsy fan you won't want to miss this, it is museum quality and bigger than a bread box".  They go on to say that it will be debuted at the Savannah Prototype Modeler's Show March 24-25.
> 
> Anyone know what this is?
> 
> Bill Laird
> Canyon Lake, Texas


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From: "Chris Brandt" <cobrandt@eclipse.net>
Subject: [PRR] Detailed maps (NJ)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:17:56 -0500

Greetings to the group,

	NJDOT has put up some really nice hi-res county maps on their website.

	http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/gis/county_maps.htm
	
	Lots of detail and abandoned tracks as well.

Chris Brandt
cobrandt@eclipse.net
http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:19:03 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

Bill,

I know what it is but I am sworn not to tell. But, most will not be disappointed!

Greg Martin   

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:50:12 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR USRA gondolas

All:

G24 data

                        No. cars on roster
G24             1944      1949    1952
351473-351872   400     400     399     
751043-751329       178     178     177 
775755-775966       132     131     129 
882514-882563       38      38      38  

cuft 1826   OL: 42 11   IH: 4 8     IL: 41 6    IW:  9 5    EXW: 10 3  EXH: 8 
4  

Rich Orr 

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:03:45 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Intermountain and Lifelike composite gondolas in HO

In a message dated 03/02/2000 10:31:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
robs@actel.com writes:

<< Unfortunately Rich's roster data on the page doesn't differentiate between
 composite and steel sided cars...
  >>
All:

I went back through the ORER issues used to develop the freight car 
information.  By 1944 the cars were all listed as all steel, tight ends, wood 
floor.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that these were converted from composite 
to all steel as part of the car building and rebuilding program of the mid 
30's.  I can't seem to locate the article at the moment.

Rich Orr

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 16:51:08 -0500
From: Casimer P Zakrzewski <zak@acadia.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff Colossus Project

If it is Penn Station (now that *would* be a
'colossus'), I think I'd want one.
Zak

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From: "pgrace" <pgrace@aspects.net>
Subject: [PRR] Imports
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:40:53 -0000

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF8498.5E08E580
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

While the John Bull is the best known import by the Pennsy there was a =
later import.. In the late 1890's a Webb compound was imported. It was a =
copy by Bayer Peacock of a "Dreadnaught" class locomotive of the London =
& North Western Railway. This arrangement instead of the LNWR works at =
Crewe because British laws forbade railway works building locomotives =
for export.  It was a 2-4-0 tender locomotive, but as a result of the =
design it was effectively a 2-2-2-0 locomotive. It was possible to get =
the wheels spinning in opposite directions! I believe it was numbered =
1520. ( The information above comes from a book called Railways at the =
Turn of the Century by O.S. Nock ). Does any one else know anything =
about it.

Patrick Grace

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF8498.5E08E580
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>While the John Bull is the best known =
import by the=20
Pennsy there was a later import.. In the late 1890's a Webb compound was =

imported. It was a copy by Bayer Peacock of a "Dreadnaught" class =
locomotive of=20
the London &amp; North Western Railway. This arrangement instead of the =
LNWR=20
works at Crewe because British laws forbade railway works building =
locomotives=20
for export.&nbsp; It was a 2-4-0 tender locomotive, but as a result of =
the=20
design it was effectively a 2-2-2-0 locomotive. It was possible to get =
the=20
wheels spinning in opposite directions! I believe it was numbered 1520. =
( The=20
information above comes from a book called Railways at the Turn of the =
Century=20
by O.S. Nock ). Does any one else know anything about it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Patrick =
Grace</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF8498.5E08E580--


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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 18:13:21 -0500
From: DDembinski <DDembinski@Centurytel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Detailed maps (NJ)

For those who are so inclined, another site to visit for maps is http://www.topozone.com.
You can zoom in and see a fair amount of detail, like the location of buildings and RR
tracks.  Abandoned roadbeds can be spotted because of their higher elevation than the
surrounding land.  Much cheaper than buying topographic maps for ALL those favorite areas.

Here is a link that will take you directly to Horseshoe Curve:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=40.4926&lon=-78.4677&s=25&size=m

In this view, note that there is a tiny (on the map, at least) abandoned reservoir located
south of Kittanning Reservoir, somewhat near the tracks.  Might this have been a water
source for track pans?  Would track pans have been needed this close to Altoona?

Dale

Chris Brandt wrote:

> Greetings to the group,
>
>         NJDOT has put up some really nice hi-res county maps on their website.
>
>         http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/gis/county_maps.htm
>
>         Lots of detail and abandoned tracks as well.
>
> Chris Brandt
> cobrandt@eclipse.net
> http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt
>
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:36:45 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR USRA gondolas

In a message dated 3/2/2000 4:22:33 PM Central Standard Time, 
SUVCWORR@aol.com writes:

<< G24 data
 
                         No. cars on roster
 G24             1944      1949    1952
 351473-351872   400     400     399     
 751043-751329       178     178     177 
 775755-775966       132     131     129 
 882514-882563       38      38      38   >>

Just to correct the record, I missed the 351xxx series in my post about 1953. 
 There were 282 left in that series in 1953 to add to the 263 in the other 
three series.

Bob Zoeller

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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:39:50 EST
Subject: [PRR] "Colossus"

Jerry & List - I know I've been very quiet lately as we up here at Trainstuff 
have been very busy. So let me try to put all my thoughts in this one post. 
First of all let me thank the Philadelphia Chapter members for their help and 
encouragement for almost a year now. You know who you are and you know my 
thanks are sincere. Loosing ones eyesight is a terrible thing to happen to 
anyone but when it happens suddenly to a first rate modeler it's a real 
tragedy. For those of you who have e-mailed John with words of 
encouragement,(especially you Greg, you rascal!) it has been appreciated. 
John used to build all our masters. When he first became ill we had the 
Wallingford Station which was half turned into a kit. We had the MP54s which 
we were making into a one piece shell so it would be easier to put together 
and "Colossus" was in it's planning stage. Plus several projects for other 
railroads. My partners and I, when the dust settled took a good long look and 
said "What are we going to do?" We went for about 2 1/2 months turning away 
work. People were sending us checks with notes saying when you get a 
chance...send me this or that. We were overwhelmed by the amount of trust 
people had in us. So we all dug in and here is where we are today. The 
Wallingford Station is complete and we are waiting on packaging and the 
printed instructions are being reviewed for ease of assembly. The MP54s are 
well underway (after someone filed off all the rivets by mistake and we had 
to start over!). Now we come to "Colossus". When we announce what "Colossus" 
is we will also tell the list who built the masters. It is not a centipede. 
It is not an HO scale breadbox. And Penn Station in HO scale would be 
approximately the size of a '56 Buick. And Jerry don't ask me how I know 
that. We do intend to let our dealer network know before Savannah what it is. 
It probably won't be ready for sale until the end of April. We will post 
pictures on our website and in Mainline Modeler as soon as we can. Our main 
concern at this point is keeping the price down. We built "Colossus" as a 
tribute to the Pennsylvania Railroad and the wonderful people who remember 
it. It's not going to be cheap but we are going to try to keep the price 
within just about everyone's reach. Jerry - it must have been a cyber gremlin 
that told you "host unknown". I just tested it and its working fine. I've 
taken up enough space for tonight. Thank you and God Bless you all. 
Dayna
Trainstuff LLC
www.trainstuffllc.com

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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s 1361 restoration photos at Steam Central
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:46:31 -0500

With respect to 1361, I understand that the Museum in Altoona doesn't plan
to use it in excursion service (nowhere practical to run it), but may run it
back and forth on a museum track.  If so, that's a lot of $$$ for a rebuild
they don't plan to use!  Along the way, does anyone know whether Steamtown
plans to run it up the hill to test it?  I'd go to great trouble to be there
for that one, if they do and I can find out when!  Assuming I can find
somewhere to stand among the crowds!

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

-----Original Message-----
From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 9:50 PM
Subject: [PRR] K4s 1361 restoration photos at Steam Central


>Hello list,
>
>Steam Central (www.Steamcentral.com) has a new page on K4s 1361's
>restoration.  There are several nice photos.  Enjoy!
>
>Doug
>
>
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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:00:20 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track

Jerry,
I've had some limited experience with the BK switches and I generally like 
them, but be sure to buy the complete kit and not just the points/frog, 
because the price difference isn't much and saves a lot of gauging. I have a 
freind who's used about a dozen of the larger sizes in his passenger terminal 
and really likes them. I've used a few #5's and have had good luck in a 
fairly busy yard area.
Barry Peltier

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:00:55 -0500
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s 1361 restoration photos at Steam Central



Bill Bigler wrote:
> 
> With respect to 1361, I understand that the Museum in Altoona doesn't plan
> to use it in excursion service (nowhere practical to run it), but may run it
> back and forth on a museum track.  If so, that's a lot of $$$ for a rebuild
> they don't plan to use!  Along the way, does anyone know whether Steamtown
> plans to run it up the hill to test it?  I'd go to great trouble to be there
> for that one, if they do and I can find out when!  Assuming I can find
> somewhere to stand among the crowds!

They have no place to run it NOW but who knows what the future may bring.

Patrick

-- 
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of
the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a
patent yet." 
   -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky
PRRT&HS #6713
============================================================================

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From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] "Colossus"
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:20:39 -0600

I'm hoping "Colossus" is a working model of the South Branch Bridge in
Chicago.


Andy


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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:36:55 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] "Colossus"

Sorry - Wrong guess. Dayna

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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:01:09 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] G24 questions

Hello list,

Thanks to all of you who corrected my misidentification of the new
Intermountain G24.  I think I will wait for the PRR version before I
spring for one (laziness wins again over paint and decals...).

Doug


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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 21:29:11 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Colossus


  Hi...

   My guess for this would be that its old Broad Street station.
   Besides Penn station in New York....Broad street station 
   was one of the many things the PRR was known by.
   Now if its not this....then perhaps its one of these....

   Hell Gate bridge in New York....The S-1.or.Q-2...The FF-1 or DD-1
   or perhaps a kit for the Rockville bridge....Remember folks...
   The PRR was known for a lot of BIG things....LOL
                              Til Later
                              Hank Mummert


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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 21:54:31 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] Colossus


 Hi all....

  Hmmmm speaking of things Colossus....The NEC main (former PRR
  Washington to New York main) roughly rounded off is about
  240 miles....
  Now if you were to model this in exact scale (of 240 Miles)
  in H.O. including all yards,stations,signals,switches,bridges,etc.
  you would need 2.75 REAL miles to do it in. This of course
  because of its size would have to be a outdoor operation
  (Hmmm more prototypically correct?) and Lord only knows
  how many people you would need to build and operate it and what the
  costs would be for supplies and electrical bills(a 1:87 PRR NEC
  electric bill.) You really would need a Wilmington shops
  and Penn coach yard to keep it going too.Now this would really
  be a Colossus!

  Well enough of this light hearted rambling....

  Anyone got 2.75 miles of real estate to spare?  LOL

                                 Til Later
                                 Hank Mummert


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From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:53:59 -0800

Jerry--I have several BK #6 turnouts in code 70 in use in my yards.  I
like them a lot, and I prefer to use just the point/frog.  Although I
have to file the stock rails where they are contacted by the points,
this lets the rails flow right into the turnout.  Next best thing to
laying everything by hand.  Also, with everything in guage, I have no
difficulty with shorts affecting the DCC system.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


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Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:14:23 -0500
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] running the k4



Greg Stone wrote:

>     My real dream would be to see her under the coaling tower at Renovo.

Mine would be to see her running up the Fort Wayne Line pulling Tuscan
Red heavyweights. it is extremely unlikely to happen but I can dream! :)

Patrick

-- 
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of
the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a
patent yet." 
   -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky
PRRT&HS #6713
============================================================================

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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:50:29 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] A running K-4


 Hi again all...

  Perhaps we should ask Bill Knepper about this...but what about the 
  possibility of running 1361 between York and New Freedom on the
  former PRR Northern Central. 1361 has been there before....both
  in PRR days and during the 1980's. And this line is'nt under
  Conrail..Er Norfolk Southern control.

  Ehhh it could happen. The'll find someplace for her to run.
  Hmmm it be fitting for her to run on NJT's Jersey lines again
  as in days of old.

                                Til Later
                                Hank Mummert


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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 23:18:48 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Colossus

Hank - Because you're trying so hard and those were all worthy guesses I'm 
going to give you a little clue. It does have something to do with bridges. I 
have been told but am not sure that it is the last of it's kind still in 
operation. In fact it is very easy to see. That's it for clues. Jerry will be 
able to post the answer shortly before Savannah. One person immediately 
guessed and has already sent out a deposit even though we don't have the 
faintest idea what it will cost. We don't want any more orders until the 
prototype is finished.
Dayna

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Subject: Re: [PRR] running the k4
From: Fred G Rea <fredrea@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 00:31:15 EST

Why not the Panhandle.  The Ohio Central has a bunch of tuscan (well
almost tuscan) heavyweights and they  run steam!

Fred Rea
Columbus OH

________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 00:40:32 -0500
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] running the k4



Fred G Rea wrote:
> 
> Why not the Panhandle.  The Ohio Central has a bunch of tuscan (well
> almost tuscan) heavyweights and they  run steam!

How easy would it be to transport 1361 from Altoona to a place where it
could run on the Ohio Central? What requirements would NS demand? I
think a good number of excursions would be needed to justify taking the
K4s so far from home and making it worthwhile. It couldn't be taken back
into its own bed each night.

Patrick

-- 
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of
the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a
patent yet." 
   -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky
PRRT&HS #6713
============================================================================

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From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:46:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track

Jerry, the big visual difference between Code 100 and 83 is not the rail. 
It's the attachment clips holding the rail to the tie strip. The Atlas 100 
has a big block as a spike which stands out in closeups. Take a look at some 
Model Power Code 100. It flex's almost as nice as the Atlas is usually 
cheaper and the spike detail is much smaller. Regarding turnouts the 
Walthers/ Shinohara can be adjusted slightly by cutting the webbing between 
ties. The frog area is pretty well fixed but the rest can be changed from 
it's original configuration. Since both 83 and 100 have about the same 
turnout selection either could be used. I wouldn't worry about the visual 
difference between 83 and 100 to make a here is the 152 lb. rail and here is 
the 136 lb. rail. The difference between 83/100 and the code 70 will be 
noticible.  I can't tell you how many people have asked me after seeing the 
rr whose code 83 did I use !! They just stand there when I tell them it's all 
Code 100 just weathered and ballasted.
                                                                             
Ken McCorry

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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 05:32:41 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4

NJ Transit would be a good place for the 1361 to run, especially since the 
C&O 614 is up for sale and is not likely to be available for any trips on NJ  
Transit this year. Both are really beautiful engines. Though I am not really 
much into steam, I would kind of like to see 1361 strut her stuff at a good 
speed like I saw C&O 614, N&W611 and NKP765plus MILW 261 do, beautiful 
engines all. To add this PRR engine to these proud steeds in operation would 
be to add a t ouch of class and the PRR was a classy railroad in its day.

Jim Mancuso
Perry, NY

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:00:35 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track

In a message dated 3/2/2000 11:54:39 PM Central Standard Time, 
KEMACPRR@aol.com writes:

<< I wouldn't worry about the visual 
 difference between 83 and 100 to make a here is the 152 lb. rail and here is 
 the 136 lb. rail. The difference between 83/100 and the code 70 will be 
 noticible.  I can't tell you how many people have asked me after seeing the 
 rr whose code 83 did I use !! They just stand there when I tell them it's 
all 
 Code 100 just weathered and ballasted. >>

Although I prefer the subtle difference between code 83 and code 100, 
couldn't agree with you more about the weathering and ballasting making a big 
difference.  In addition, we so far have ramped down our industrial sidings 
from the mainline to "no ballast" (read no roadbed) without changing rail to 
code 70.  The effect of going from a heavy ballasted main line with drainage 
to a weed grown buried tie siding is achieved all with code 83 and is 
effective.  However, on my own layout I will change rail as well to "double 
the pleasure".

Bob Zoeller
Cedar Creek Central Railroad
Jackson, Wisconsin

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Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:14:03 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track

Jerry,

>Next question. We previously discussed that Code 83 would be appropriate for
>the Harrisburg station tracks. Would two of the prototype through tracks
>have remained at 155 pound rail (Code 100 equiv.) or would all ten have been
>lighter?

I will also agree that you would be better off to stick with one size rail
and to emphasize the differences with ballast.  A good example of this
would be to use a darker ballast on all sidings, and to have the ballast
cover more of the ties.  In the Harrisburg station, I would alos modle some
protoypically wet areas where steam lines have leaked and or water has
pooled.  As an additional note, apparently, Atlas has re-issued the code
100 with much more protoypical sized spike heads...or so the rumor mill
says.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry

PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com
       _               _
      / \             / \
  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
 |- _______/ O     \_______ -| |_  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  _|
 | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |
 |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_|
 | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O | |=| 0==0                      0==0 |=|




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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:30:01 -0500

Jerry:

I have to concur with Ken.  I had passenger station tracks, on a previous
layout, with code 100 mainline tracks, code 83 passing tracks, code 70 track
at the baggage/mail car storage tracks and some code 55 on the adjacent
freight tracks.  After the rail was properly weathered, you had to carefully
study the passenger tracks to see the differences.  Even the code 70 was not
easy to spot and differentiate from normal viewing distance.  The code 55
was easy to notice, though.

I no longer worry about rail size on the layout beyond three feet from
normal view unless I seriously intend to make a photo display of that
particular area.  I only use different rail sizes right up at the edge of
the layout.  I do use Model Power up front, and the Atlas in the back,
tunnels, hidden sidings etc.

On turnouts, I scratchbuild all the curved and special turnouts and turnouts
right up front and use weathered Atlas Custom Line (and others) other
places.  Once the track is in, weathered and ballasted, it is VERY difficult
to tell weather a turnout is scratchbuilt or Rivarossi, brass or nickle
silver, metal or plastic frog.  (Don't use plastic frogs in high traffic
areas, they don't wear well over the years).  If you are building a photo
diorama that will be inspected up close, in detail, then go ahead and spend
the time to make everything exact scale.

Years ago, my then 13 yr old son, without my knowledge, weathered all my
turnouts (Atlas, Shinoharra, Rivarossi, Model Power etc) by scrubbing them
with a toothbrush and detergent, rinsing and soaking them upside down in
Hobby Black in a glass baking dish, then put them in the dishwasher to clean
them off.  *Fortunately for him*, it worked.  The turnouts blackened nicely
and there has never been any corrosion on them or electrical contact
problems.  I do this routinely now, and it makes weathering a turnout easy.

Have fun!

Lew


-----Original Message-----
From: KEMACPRR@aol.com <KEMACPRR@aol.com>
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Cc: Prr-talk@dsop.com <Prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Code 100 Track


>Jerry, the big visual difference between Code 100 and 83 is not the rail.
>It's the attachment clips holding the rail to the tie strip. The Atlas 100
>has a big block as a spike which stands out in closeups. Take a look at
some
>Model Power Code 100. It flex's almost as nice as the Atlas is usually
>cheaper and the spike detail is much smaller. Regarding turnouts the
>Walthers/ Shinohara can be adjusted slightly by cutting the webbing between
>ties. The frog area is pretty well fixed but the rest can be changed from
>it's original configuration. Since both 83 and 100 have about the same
>turnout selection either could be used. I wouldn't worry about the visual
>difference between 83 and 100 to make a here is the 152 lb. rail and here
is
>the 136 lb. rail. The difference between 83/100 and the code 70 will be
>noticible.  I can't tell you how many people have asked me after seeing the
>rr whose code 83 did I use !! They just stand there when I tell them it's
all
>Code 100 just weathered and ballasted.
>
>Ken McCorry
>
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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:03:03 EST
Subject: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

Jerry & Folks,
Well, I'm glad to see other people besides myself use the old standard code 100, and Model Power flex, no less. I like the extreme flexiiblity of the stuff, and used to get it from Standard Hobby Supplyt for about $.89 a section. I think it's about $1.29 nowadays. It looks good, as well. Now sure where they make it now, used to be Austria and/or Jugoslavia (now Croatia).My standards have been Atlas and Peco, but nothing wrong with MP flex.
Personally, I never would have used any code 83 except that an outfit in California once sent me 60 sections of it rather than the code 100 I'd asked for. Truly, except for the large Atlas 'tie plates', the differnces are hard to spot at any range. For a while it was a status thing to use code 70, but it's way too small for Pennsy main lines, obviously.
As for the BK switches, if you want a notch in the stock rail (sometimes called a "Sampson Fit"), it's easy enough to file one in the kit version. Pecos, by the way, already come with one, another mark in their favor.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:20:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/3/00 10:03 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote:

> Well, I'm glad to see other people besides myself use the old standard code
> 100...my
> standards have been Atlas and Peco, but nothing wrong with MP flex.

Seems that most people prefer Code 100 and Atlas. Big task is weathering.

> As for the BK switches, if you want a notch in the stock rail (sometimes
> called a "Sampson Fit"), it's easy enough to file one in the kit version.
> Pecos, by the way, already come with one, another mark in their favor.

I cited wanting curved turnouts between the #6 and #8 that Shinohara offers.
Walthers Code 83, made by Shinohara, is also available in #7. From here on
out, Walthers will be the exclusive distributor of all Shinohara, under
their name, so maybe we'll see #7 in Code 100 in the future.

I could really use #6.5 and #7.5 as well. Why? My main line ends and
disappears into hidding staging. To do so, it must turn 180-degrees with an
outer radius of no more than 40". The entrance to staing is CORK
interlocking, which will provide three yard lead tracks. If I can start the
yard throat on this curve, it will significantly lengthen my stub-end yard
tracks.

The #6, if I recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".
Some sizes in the middle would bode well for meeting my needs.

---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:53:06 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

Jerry,
WHOA......what radii did you cite for those curved switchs?    "he #6, if I recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".
 Some sizes in the middle would bode well for meeting my needs."
You might want to check out those tables in Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation. I don't have it here at work (can't get away with that much), but I think the nominal radius on a number 6 is in the 60-some inch radius and a number 8 goes up around 90-100 inchs. Even the Peco curved ('large') is in the region of 36" off a 60" radius. Maybe you should post this question to the LDSIG list? Somebody over there always has this data handy.
Barry Peltier



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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 11:03:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/3/00 10:53 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote:

> WHOA......what radii did you cite for those curved switchs?    "he #6, if I
> recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".

Walthers quotes those for their Code 83, and a mail order house in the
current MR cites those for Code 100 Shinohara.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:31:49 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

In a message dated 3/3/2000 10:01:03 AM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com 
writes:

<< WHOA......what radii did you cite for those curved switchs?    "he #6, if 
I recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".
  Some sizes in the middle would bode well for meeting my needs."
 You might want to check out those tables in Armstrong's Track Planning for 
Realistic Operation. I don't have it here at work (can't get away with that 
much), but I think the nominal radius on a number 6 is in the 60-some inch 
radius and a number 8 goes up around 90-100 inchs.  >>

I think you are right on the curved leg through the frog on a standard No 6.  
However, the No. 6-1/2 curved of Walthers Shinohara  flows into  20/24inch 
radii, the No. 7 to 24/28, the No. 7-1/2 to 28/32, and the No. 8 to 32/36. I 
don't know if the frogs are curved or straight on the curved turnouts, and 
don't know what the radius is if they are curved.  Will let you know as we 
are in the process of buying and installing our first curved turnout.

BTW, Jerry, I agree with Barry.  Ask the question over on the LDSIG list.  
You might also ask how much trouble you are buying with curved turnouts, 
especially in quantity in key locations.  We are approaching it cautiously in 
a tight situation at a major mine.

Bob Zoeller

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:55:41 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

In a message dated 03/03/2000 11:11:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< Walthers quotes those for their Code 83, and a mail order house in the
 current MR cites those for Code 100 Shinohara.
 - >>
Jerry, 

Remember that Walthers and Shinohara are one and the same.  Shinohara makes 
the Walthers turnouts and simple changes the name on the back ot the finished 
product.  Only need to made dew dies for the back of the ties to accomplishe 
this.

Rich Orr

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 12:01:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/3/00 11:55 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote:

> << Walthers quotes those for their Code 83, and a mail order house in the
> current MR cites those for Code 100 Shinohara.
> - >>
> Jerry, 
> 
> Remember that Walthers and Shinohara are one and the same.  Shinohara makes
> the Walthers turnouts and simple changes the name on the back ot the finished
> product.  Only need to made dew dies for the back of the ties to accomplishe
> this.

Yes, Rich, I realize that and pointed that out in one of my other e-mails.
However, for anyone to look it up in a catalog, anything other than Code 83
is still under the Shinohara name. However, I've been told that Walthers has
secured the rights as exclusive distributor for them as of the next catalog.

The current printed Walthers catalog has them under their respective names.
However, their online catalog already has them all under the Walthers name.

Just wish they'd offer more sizes in Code 100.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:07:14 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK

Bob,
Boy oh boy, are you correct about using caution on mainline curved switchs! I've got some Pecos in service, but it took some real didling to line them where I wanted them. (I'm using them in a curved cross-over). They have the nice feature of serving as something of a spiral curve, but like all such transistion curves, they have to figured into your track alignment. It's not like going from a tangent into a 36" radius curve, for example, and I was crazy enough to go from curve switch to curved switch. Looks good now, but keep your Xuron sharp! (And an old one for nipping ties).
By the way, did you guys ever notice that horrendous kink, using a Shinohara, in the track section of the Walthers catalog? I think it's on the first page of the Walthers track section. Heck, these guys make the darn things and even they couldn't  get it to line up!
Have fun, but lay aside a little extra time.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: LeeRainey@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:26:09 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser

In a message dated 2/24/2000 4:29:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
mittner@webtv.net writes:

<< he additional info Rick brings up leads me to this answer. Now we
 must build a Locomotive Test Plant similar to the one the PRR used in
 Altoona to figure out the scale tractive effort. In HO scale proportions
 of course. <G>....Gary >>

I seem to recall Gordon Odegaard doing this in Model Railroader about 1960 -- 
used a hanging spring scale like you would weigh a fish with.

Hmmm.

Nothing new under the sun.

Lee Rainey

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From: LeeRainey@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:07:16 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Serious business

In a message dated 2/21/2000 9:08:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
velure@surfnj.net writes:

<< Modelers have a minor interest in the Prototype,
 in that they only need to know the color of the locomotives, the types of
 equipment used and the time frames they operated in, and also typical
 traffic routings and types.  when you start getting into the minutiae of
 operations and super detail information, such as the locomotive XXXX was the
 only one to have the XXXX, the modelers turn a deaf ear.  >>

I am not sure what modelers you are thinking of, but that is not the case 
here. The pursuit of this kind of detail is the main reason I belong to BOTH 
this on-line group and the PRRT&HS -- and will continue to do so.

Lee Rainey
PRRT&HS 6009
PRR in S scale

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 13:42:53 -0500
Subject: [PRR] ROY Interlocking
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

With regards to ROY interlocking at Royalton, Pa. (Middletown) where the
main line and the Columbia Branch join on their way to Harrisburg...

When was the Columbia Branch reduced from two tracks to one?

The interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site shows it as one track. The
diagram is marked revised as of 1962.

Triumph II contains a diagram which shows both tracks.

Per usual, am trying to substantiate status as of 1954.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK, curved turnouts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 17:17:03 -0500

I've been using curved turnouts since 1965.  I prefer them for yard leads
because they really l@@k good!  :-)  They are also great for "compacting"
passing sidings, yard leads etc, where space is at a premium.  I've used
commercially made and scratchbuilt ones and have had no more problems with
the curved turnouts than with straight turnouts (except for some early Model
Power brass w/plastic frog).   In operation, I noticed that the segment of
arc with a curved turnout is so short that the radius doesn't really make a
lot of difference for the wide minimum radius equipment I own.  If you are
running a rigid frame S2 it might, but my P5s, L6, L5, T1s, J1, GG1s and
Milw Little Joe can negotiate all my #6, #8 et al curved turnouts at speed.

I prefer to build straight frog curved turnouts for large radii crossovers
only because they are easier to build.  I built a curved frog #3 for an
industrial area that works rather well.  The curved points are designed to
be a short spiral easement into the tighter radius frog area.  When you buy
or make a curved turnout, you *gotta* check every clearance carefully and
gage everything.  Make sure the sharp end of the point on the outside curve
nestles into the rail very well because a wheel will have more opportunity
to pick the point on the outside of a curve than any other area.  Same with
the curved frog point, but not so much the straight frog in a curved
turnout.  If you have trouble with flanges picking the outside curve point,
do what the real RRs do, put a guard rail just before the inside curve point
to keep the wheels from bearing too tightly on the outside.

Lew Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com <Bobspf@aol.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] CODE 100 TRACK


>In a message dated 3/3/2000 10:01:03 AM Central Standard Time,
BPX29@aol.com
>writes:
>
><< WHOA......what radii did you cite for those curved switchs?    "he #6,
if
>I recall, is based on 20" and 24" radii. The #8, 32" and 36".
>  Some sizes in the middle would bode well for meeting my needs."
> You might want to check out those tables in Armstrong's Track Planning for
>Realistic Operation. I don't have it here at work (can't get away with that
>much), but I think the nominal radius on a number 6 is in the 60-some inch
>radius and a number 8 goes up around 90-100 inchs.  >>
>
>I think you are right on the curved leg through the frog on a standard No
6.
>However, the No. 6-1/2 curved of Walthers Shinohara  flows into  20/24inch
>radii, the No. 7 to 24/28, the No. 7-1/2 to 28/32, and the No. 8 to 32/36.
I
>don't know if the frogs are curved or straight on the curved turnouts, and
>don't know what the radius is if they are curved.  Will let you know as we
>are in the process of buying and installing our first curved turnout.
>
>BTW, Jerry, I agree with Barry.  Ask the question over on the LDSIG list.
>You might also ask how much trouble you are buying with curved turnouts,
>especially in quantity in key locations.  We are approaching it cautiously
in
>a tight situation at a major mine.
>
>Bob Zoeller
>
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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:45:02 EST
Subject: [PRR] Colossus

List - In last nights postings someone mentioned that after Colossus we were 
going to take a look at tenders and while I have been in touch with a few of 
the finest model makers around it is still in the "thinking about it stage". 
We have been provided some fine photographs but nothing is set in stone. We 
will let you know as soon as it is. Dayna

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:55:03 -0500
From: Dany Seymour <dannysey@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: [PRR] Track Pans

I am installing a track pan on my railroad.  My question is - what type
of indicators were used to locate the pans and for the firemen to lower
and raise the scoop?

Dan Seymour
Visit the Shark River & Western Railway at

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4374/

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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:01:18 -0500

I agree! Anyone else want to see 1361 storm out of South Amboy and run down
the NY&LB like days of old? It's just too bad she couldn't take over from a
G!
----- Original Message -----
From: <GenJim833@aol.com>
To: <bubbles@visi.net>; <PRR-TALK@dsop.com>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4


> NJ Transit would be a good place for the 1361 to run, especially since the
> C&O 614 is up for sale and is not likely to be available for any trips on
NJ
> Transit this year. Both are really beautiful engines. Though I am not
really
> much into steam, I would kind of like to see 1361 strut her stuff at a
good
> speed like I saw C&O 614, N&W611 and NKP765plus MILW 261 do, beautiful
> engines all. To add this PRR engine to these proud steeds in operation
would
> be to add a t ouch of class and the PRR was a classy railroad in its day.
>
> Jim Mancuso
> Perry, NY
>
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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] More 1361 information
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:03:56 -0500

That URL should be www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs .
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 10:10 PM
Subject: [PRR] More 1361 information


> Hello list,
> 
> There's more news on K4s 1361 at www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nhrs.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> Doug
> 
> 
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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 19:19:28 -0600
From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>
Subject: [PRR] Code 100 track

Bobspf@aol.com wrote:

> BTW, Jerry, I agree with Barry.  Ask the question over on the LDSIG
list.
> You might also ask how much trouble you are buying with curved
turnouts,
> especially in quantity in key locations.  We are approaching it
cautiously in
> a tight situation at a major mine.

Hi Bob and All:

Has anyone out there ever tried curving the code 100 and code 83
Shinohara stock
#8 turnouts?  I have a number on my layout, and have been told that they
appear
to be hand laid.  If you do it right they can really look good, and also
allow
fitting turnouts into places you may not normally put them due to a lack
of a
tangent.  It's not all that hard to do, and the results are well worth
the extra
effort.  I'm not into, (politically correct for, "I'm not talented
enough to"),
hand laying custom turnouts, so taking a quality part like Shinohara and
curving
it to conform to my track alignment is just the ticket for me.

One other thing.  I also read, with a chuckle, Barry Peltier's posting
about the
"horrendous kink using a Shinohara, in the track section of the Walthers

catalog".  This is something that has bugged me for years.  I'm happy to
see that
someone else has noticed it. <VBG>

Regards,

Larry







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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:27:14 EST
Subject: [PRR] Mystery car

OK, now that we have discussed the white X29 car for battery service, I now 
see in Volume 6 of Pennsy diesel years on page 25 a white boxcar with large 
roof hatches being switched with a cut of passenger cars at the Chicago coach 
yards.  Anyone know what it is?

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 21:55:51 -0500
From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [PRR] Colossus

I'm guessing that Colossus is one of the Newark drawbridges.


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From: Paul Stumpff <urr304@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Pans
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 08:07:56 -0500

Danny:
According to my 1925 PRR rule book, no.701:
"Track troughs in service will be marked:
At entrance   -by day: white target
	         by night: lunar white light
At exit:	        -by day: yellow target
	         by night: yellow light
At middle
    [when used]- same as entrance
Out of service	-by day and night, all yellow targets and yellow lights.

Includes other rules concerning coal and water, including that when doubleheading , second engine drops first then halfway first engine does.
One engine on front, one pushing, front engine goes one third way before dropping scoop, pusher when it reaches trough.
Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio]


-----Original Message-----
From:	Dany Seymour [SMTP:dannysey@bellatlantic.net]
Sent:	Friday, March 03, 2000 6:55 PM
To:	PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:	[PRR] Track Pans

I am installing a track pan on my railroad.  My question is - what type
of indicators were used to locate the pans and for the firemen to lower
and raise the scoop?

Dan Seymour


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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] ROY Interlocking
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:56:41 -0500

Jerry:
I've checked all my books, and can't find but one picture of traffic on the
Royalton branch (at TMI ) Interesting question, as I have always thought the
branch was single track!
Cos

> With regards to ROY interlocking at Royalton, Pa. (Middletown) where the
> main line and the Columbia Branch join on their way to Harrisburg...
>
> When was the Columbia Branch reduced from two tracks to one?
>
> The interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site shows it as one track. The
> diagram is marked revised as of 1962.
>
> Triumph II contains a diagram which shows both tracks.
>
> Per usual, am trying to substantiate status as of 1954.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com



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Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:29:43 -0600 (CST)
From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)
Subject: [PRR] PRR:  Engine numbering

Question tor the historians:  If an Altoona-built engine is lettered for, and working on, a partly or wholly owned subsidiary line (i.e. New York and Long Branch or  Cleveland & Pittsburgh) is the number of the engine also a PRR number?  

Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540



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From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>
Subject: [PRR] Railfan Alert
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:00:28 -0500


Ohio and Pennsylvania Fans...  be on the lookout for another ALASKA SD70MAC
and a Central New England GP10, both heading for Conway Yard from opposite
directions.

Details on these and other really neat photo opportunities on the
"OS/Sightings" page at:

www.forcomm.net/flagstop





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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:52:52 -0500

Yes, a running K-4 would be awesome!  I, too, have seen all these
locomotives and found them to be really impressive.  However, the museum in
Altoona owns the locomotive and will want to use it to attract visitors
and/or revenue for the museum, so they might be reluctant to loan it out too
often.  Not to mention that I can't imagine a steam engine turning a profit
in today's world - just costs too much to keep them running.  However, the
museum has been good at raising $$$, and there's a lot of abandoned former
PRR right of way around Altoona where track could be laid.  Or talk NS into
making the line to Hollidaysburg available to them.  Not that NS is very
flexible, but money talks in American business.  Just my $0.02 worth!

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

-----Original Message-----
From: GenJim833@aol.com <GenJim833@aol.com>
To: bubbles@visi.net <bubbles@visi.net>; PRR-TALK@dsop.com
<PRR-TALK@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4


>NJ Transit would be a good place for the 1361 to run, especially since the
>C&O 614 is up for sale and is not likely to be available for any trips on
NJ
>Transit this year. Both are really beautiful engines. Though I am not
really
>much into steam, I would kind of like to see 1361 strut her stuff at a good
>speed like I saw C&O 614, N&W611 and NKP765plus MILW 261 do, beautiful
>engines all. To add this PRR engine to these proud steeds in operation
would
>be to add a t ouch of class and the PRR was a classy railroad in its day.
>
>Jim Mancuso
>Perry, NY
>
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From: "Steven Bundick" <sbundick@ezy.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re:  ROY Interlocking
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:07:43 -0500

Jerry-

I've got an interlocking diagram of ROY dated 1-1-1957. It shows two tracks
on the Columbia branch.  It must have been single tracked between 57 and 62.
It's actually labeled 'ROY Block Station', not interlocking.  That may
explain why all of the switches are hand operated. I can send you a scan if
you'd like.

-Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
To: PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 1:49 PM
Subject: [PRR] ROY Interlocking


>With regards to ROY interlocking at Royalton, Pa. (Middletown) where the
>main line and the Columbia Branch join on their way to Harrisburg...
>
>When was the Columbia Branch reduced from two tracks to one?
>
>The interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site shows it as one track. The
>diagram is marked revised as of 1962.
>
>Triumph II contains a diagram which shows both tracks.
>
>Per usual, am trying to substantiate status as of 1954.
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
>Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
>    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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>    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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>    http://www.brasstrains.net
>For Dealers and Manufacturers
>    http://modelrailroadnews.net
>
>
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Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 12:50:21 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4

Rick and the list,

I know it wouldn't be possible any more, but I'd love to see a duplication of
the Broker's old route to Jersey City's Exchange place.  I remember reading that
when the 1361 was first restored in the 80s that there had been discussions with
NJ Transit about running on the North Jersey Coast Line; this is something I'd
love to see (considering that it last happened 13 years before I was born).

Doug

Rick Schoch wrote:

> I agree! Anyone else want to see 1361 storm out of South Amboy and run down
> the NY&LB like days of old? It's just too bad she couldn't take over from a
> G!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <GenJim833@aol.com>
> To: <bubbles@visi.net>; <PRR-TALK@dsop.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 5:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4
>
> > NJ Transit would be a good place for the 1361 to run, especially since the
> > C&O 614 is up for sale and is not likely to be available for any trips on
> NJ
> > Transit this year. Both are really beautiful engines. Though I am not
> really
> > much into steam, I would kind of like to see 1361 strut her stuff at a
> good
> > speed like I saw C&O 614, N&W611 and NKP765plus MILW 261 do, beautiful
> > engines all. To add this PRR engine to these proud steeds in operation
> would
> > be to add a t ouch of class and the PRR was a classy railroad in its day.
> >
> > Jim Mancuso
> > Perry, NY
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
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From: DPoole17@aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:37:46 EST
Subject: [PRR] ONE INCH FREIGHT CARS

I have four one inch scale, 4 3/4" gauge, freight cars FOR SALE.  If you are 
interested they can be seen at

http://home.att.net/~livesteam/livesteamtrains.htm

DICK POOLE          Dpoole17@aol.com

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Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:01:57 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Engine numbering

Don and the list,

I won't speak to the rest of the PRR system, but as far as the New York and Long Branch goes, neither PRR nor CNJ ever lettered engines for that line.  Engines were used as necessary; Ks 3750 was a regular on the PRSL but could be
frequently seen on the New York and Long Branch, while K4s 1361 was a New York and Long Branch regular that could also be seen on the PRSL.  I'll go out on a limb and say that (at least during the 50s) all of PRR's steam in the Eastern
Region could be used anywhere within the region, without regard for subsidiary status.

I'll go out on another limb and say that the main reason that the PRSL had it's own engines and the NYLB didn't was that the PRSL was created in 1933, which was a more regulated  era versus the 1880s for the joint PRR/CNJ operation on the
NYLB.

One other tidbit; the PRR engines that LIRR leased remained PRR engines (K4s 5406 and E6s 460 being two of the most famous) remained lettered for PRR while on the LIRR.

Hope this hasn't confused you too thoroughly.

Doug

Don Harper wrote:

> Question tor the historians:  If an Altoona-built engine is lettered for, and working on, a partly or wholly owned subsidiary line (i.e. New York and Long Branch or  Cleveland & Pittsburgh) is the number of the engine also a PRR number?
>
> Don Harper
> Texas A&M Marine Lab
> 5007 Avenue U
> Galveston, TX  77551
> 409/740-4540
>
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:45:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery car

In a message dated 03/03/2000 9:36:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Bobspf@aol.com writes:

<< OK, now that we have discussed the white X29 car for battery service, I 
now 
 see in Volume 6 of Pennsy diesel years on page 25 a white boxcar with large 
 roof hatches being switched with a cut of passenger cars at the Chicago 
coach 
 yards.  Anyone know what it is?
  >>
Bob:

It is either an X29H or and X29K.  the differences is the size of the roof 
hatches and I can't locate my information on these subclasses.  The quest is 
why are they in passenger service.  These cars were designed for carry pitch.

Rich Orr

Rich Orr

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Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 14:01:24 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] ROY Interlocking
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/4/00 9:56 AM, Wayne S. Betty at (cos@mycyberlink.net) wrote:

> I've checked all my books, and can't find but one picture of traffic on the
> Royalton branch (at TMI ) Interesting question, as I have always thought the
> branch was single track!

I recently saw, but I don't know a date of, a chart that showed the entire
Columbia Branch double-tracked except for a short stretch between Columbia
and Marietta.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
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From: keninwillshire@webtv.net (Ken Miller)
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 21:55:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PRR] PRR cabin cars.

Does any one have any S-scale cabin cars for sale? Also does any one
know where I can find a drawing of the PRR/NYC crossing in Van Wert
Ohio?


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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 22:01:05 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4

In a message dated 00-03-03 19:08:36 EST, rickstug@mindspring.com writes:

<< Anyone else want to see 1361 storm out of South Amboy and run down
 the NY&LB like days of old? It's just too bad she couldn't take over from a 
G >>

I'd love that!  But they would have to make the consist short,
or else use a diesel helper (unless another working K4 can be
found!).  Imagine how much a sponsoring fan group could charge
per seat on a 6-7 car train on 1361's "first run"....

Rich Copeland

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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 04:09:23 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4

As for a diesel helper for the K4 1361, how about the CNJ F3 set, or the GP7 
painted back into its original CNJ scheme, or even the Lehigh Valley F units 
as possibilties? The CNJ units would be appropriate helpers on the NY&LB 
since both that railroad and the Pennsy owned and operated that and put an MU 
box  in the 1361's cab so  her engineer can also control the diesel helper as 
well?


Jim Mancuso
Perry, NY

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From: BBReynolds@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:09:09 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery car

In a message dated 3/4/2000 1:55:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
SUVCWORR@aol.com writes:

> It is either an X29H or and X29K.  the differences is the size of the roof 
>  hatches and I can't locate my information on these subclasses.  The quest 
is 
> 
>  why are they in passenger service.  These cars were designed for carry 
pitch.
> 
>  
The key might be in "designed for (sic) carry pitch", as in heated material 
for roofing repairs, thus insulated: and insulation works both ways---could 
these white cars have
been used for ice service or dry ice service???

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 10:06:52 -0500

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Good Morning PRR-List...O.K. it's Sunday, we might have a little more =
time for this question. We've all had a lot of feelings about this =
subject, and without beating a dead horse...I really would like to know =
what you all think. If my memory serves me right, I remember the PRR =
(and other roads, as well) back in the time after WWII, facing a host of =
competition from the trucking industry and gov't regulations, etc, etc. =
The ICC still is much involved, but would there have been a better =
chance for the Pennsy today? Suppose Stuart Saunders and his other =
buddies would have found a better merge partner than NYC? But the PRR =
was instrumental in many modern engineering designs and bought about =
Truc-Train service...things that today's NS and CSX are making major =
money on...a lot of it on an infrastructure that was built by the PRR. =
I'd like to see Conrail or NS build a Rockville Bridge or a Pennsylvania =
Station in New York with todays dollars without gov't intervention. I =
know I'm partial to the PRR, and this is stuff that has been hashed =
about for years, but after riding Amtrak for a couple of days, I miss =
the Pennsy that much more!  Regards, everybody...Bob. =
rholden@superpa.net=20

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Good Morning PRR-List...O.K. it's Sunday, we might =
have a=20
little more time for this question. We've all had a lot of feelings =
about this=20
subject, and without beating a dead horse...I really would like to know =
what you=20
all think.&nbsp;If my memory serves me right, I remember the PRR (and =
other=20
roads, as well) back in the time after WWII, facing a host of =
competition from=20
the trucking industry and gov't regulations, etc, etc. The ICC still is =
much=20
involved, but would there have been a better chance for the Pennsy =
today?=20
Suppose Stuart Saunders and his other buddies would have found a better =
merge=20
partner than NYC? But the PRR was instrumental in many modern =
engineering=20
designs and bought about Truc-Train service...things that today's NS and =
CSX are=20
making major money on...a lot of it on an infrastructure that was built =
by the=20
PRR. I'd like to see Conrail or NS build a Rockville Bridge or a =
Pennsylvania=20
Station in New York with todays dollars without gov't intervention. I =
know I'm=20
partial to the PRR, and this is stuff that has been hashed about for =
years, but=20
after riding Amtrak for a couple of days, I miss the Pennsy that much=20
more!&nbsp; Regards, everybody...Bob. <A=20
href=3D"mailto:rholden@superpa.net">rholden@superpa.net</A>=20
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 10:39:07 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

The Pennsylvania Railroad would have probably done much better to either 
absorb its subsidiary Norfolk and Western, or else merge with one of its 
western connections: Santa Fe, Burlington on the west, plus take in the New 
Haven Railroad on the east in its entirety in a three-way end to end merger 
that would have created a true transcontinenal railroad and without the 
horsing around stemming from the recent mergers. Another possibility would 
have the Pennsy lining up with the Cotton Belt-Southern Pacific combination 
or even merging with the Rock Island and one of its western connections. In 
any event, a true transcontinental Pennsylvania Railroad would have been the 
result from any of these possiblie combinations. On the New York Central 
side, Central would line up with a combination of the Milwaukee Road or 
Chicago and Northwestern and Union Pacific or else Burlington plus the Great 
Northern and Northern Pacific systems. Thus there would be at least two major 
transcontinental systems and still be plenty of other railroads, especially 
the north-south oriented lines. Here is a list of possibilities as I see 
them, had they occurred:

1. Pennsylvania+ Cotton Belt+Southern Pacific = Pennsylvania Southern Pacific 
Lines
2.New York Central+ Milwaukee Road+ Union Pacific=New York Central Pacific
3.Erie+Lackawanna+Nickel Plate+ Great Northern= Erie Lackawanna Great Northern
4. Baltimore and Ohio+Rock Island+Denver&Rio Grande Western+Western 
Pacific=Baltimore,Ohio&Western Pacific. 

These combinations would result in four major transcontinental systems. 
Wabash, Chesapeake and Ohio, Pere Marquette, Norfolk and Western would all 
become parts of midwestern regional systems. How are these for possibilities 
of what might have been?

Jim Mancuso
Perry, NY

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:00:50 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

Bob,

It is really hard to tell if the P Co. would be around today or not. After 
1970 the whole world changed.  We had Mr. "Whip Inflation Now" Greenspan, we 
developed an agency to help subsidize the removal of the Steel Industry 
without complete union chaos, the EPA and we are still trying to do the same 
with the mining industries.  We learned that the US really doesn't control 
the price of a gallon of gas... "over a dollar a gallon for gas, well I can 
remember..." and the influx of foreign car sales into the US economy, the Us 
Auto manufacturers that own these companies abroad needed to produce a car 
where parts were produced cheaply, enter Isuzu, Mazda, and Mitsubishi...  

The point is had deregulation taken place in 1967 and there was no merger and 
there was court demands taken place less profitable lines hauling nearly 
empty passenger past nameless small stations, your right it might have 
recovered from it financial premerger problems.  Remember at the time of the 
merger the PRR was in serious financial trouble and it certainly didn't need 
the NYC and the NYNH&H's bankrupt headaches to play into the situation.

However; if history is our teacher there is no reason to believe that PRR 
would not have been absorbed by a Railroad in better financial position to 
run the railroad, like Norfolk & Western.  Post deregulation this nation 
consolidated most of it's "bridge carriers" into nice comfortable money 
making railroads.  There is no reason to believe that the PRR would not have 
suffered the same fate as the MILW, SP or any of the other victim of the post 
deregulation first round knock out and merger mania.  It was told to me that 
if the UP and the SP were not allowed to merge the SP would have been 
bankrupt in 11 months.  That was by a very influential ex-SP member of 
management that did not make the merger and took the buy out...  So the 
question looms ... but I don't believe the PRR would have lasted to become as 
big as Conrail was prior to the merger.  Nor do I believe that they would 
have been a single name railroad either. I do believe they would have 
expanded south and west.  I don't believe they would have kept up with the 
amount of passenger service that was going on during the late sixties and 
early seventies.  Amtrak has without question restored comfort and quality to 
rail passenger travel, and should be allowed to compete for time sensitive 
freight shipments.

But again this is all guess work...

Just throwing in my 2˘ in.

Greg Martin  Salem, OR 

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From: "Walt Prusick" <walpru@stargate.net>
Subject: [PRR] Post merger
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:14:36 -0800

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Dear List.
I am of the opinion that the Pennsy (at least the Pgh area) was doomed =
by WWII. Reasoning as follows: This area of the Pennsy was highly =
dependant on steel industry (coal, iron ore, steel so forth). US Gov. in =
reviewing how USAAF as well as RAF was able to pound Ruhr in Germany =
determined that "vital" industries, in case of nuclear attack, had to be =
decentralized.Witness what has happened . Pennsy could no longer depend =
on this "centralized" market. I view this as one of the contributing =
factors in the decline of the Pennsy Dynasty. Just had to add my $.02.

Walt P.

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear List.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am of the opinion that the Pennsy (at =
least the=20
Pgh area) was doomed by WWII. Reasoning as follows: This area of the =
Pennsy was=20
highly dependant on steel industry (coal, iron ore, steel so forth). US =
Gov. in=20
reviewing how USAAF as well as RAF was able to pound Ruhr in Germany =
determined=20
that "vital" industries, in case of nuclear attack, had to be=20
decentralized.Witness what has happened . Pennsy could no longer depend =
on this=20
"centralized" market. I view this as one of the contributing factors in =
the=20
decline of the Pennsy Dynasty. Just had to add my $.02.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt P.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:51:29 -0500

I'm probably wrong, because I'm too young to have been trackside, but didn't
the K4's usually run singly on the NY&LB? Most of the pictures I've seen
suggest this. With a fairly level profile and 60 MPH running it would make
sense. I for one would really like to see that beauty run unassisted if
possible, and judging by what I've seen courtesy of the guys who helpfully
provided the links, 1361 should be almost like new when the folks at
Steamtown get finished with her. What do you think guys?
----- Original Message -----
From: <GenJim833@aol.com>
To: <PRRMAN@aol.com>; <rickstug@mindspring.com>; <bubbles@visi.net>;
<PRR-TALK@dsop.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 4:09 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4


> As for a diesel helper for the K4 1361, how about the CNJ F3 set, or the
GP7
> painted back into its original CNJ scheme, or even the Lehigh Valley F
units
> as possibilties? The CNJ units would be appropriate helpers on the NY&LB
> since both that railroad and the Pennsy owned and operated that and put an
MU
> box  in the 1361's cab so  her engineer can also control the diesel helper
as
> well?
>
>
> Jim Mancuso
> Perry, NY


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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:01:35 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

Guys,
The Penn Central merger defied all logic at the time. In order for a 
marginally profitable carrier like the Pennsy to throw away big income from 
N&W and Wabash stock in order to merge with an equally marginal NYC and 
absolute money loser like the New Haven , logic has to be discarded. The only 
rational explanation is that Saunders and Pearlman stood to make large 
personal gains. They certainly couldn't have honestly tried to make the 
merger work...hell, the average second year business student could have done 
better than the PC's management structure. If they's been actually looking 
out for the PRR interest they would have sought a healthy partner, instead of 
a competing one. Of course, at that time the ICC wasn't keen on end to end 
mergers, especially if they jumped the invisible wall separating eastern from 
western carriers. (Still largely that way).
The whole thing was a crock and saunders and Pearlman should have been 
cellmates with McGinnis, for my $.02 worth.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:06:48 -0500

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I think one of the problems the PRR had was its slowness to adopt =
TCS/CTC on a systemwide scale and rationalize it's excess trackage (an =
area in which the NYC unfortunately beat the pants off 'em). I feel if =
the PRR had done this, and, with all railroads, found earlier relief =
from excessive government regulation & intervention (hello Mr. =
Staggers), she would have lasted much longer, although she would surely =
have been involved in today's mega-merger movement. Also PRR should have =
merged with N&W/NKP rather than NYC (who should have gone with C&O/B&O). =
That's why the way the ex-Conrail trackage was divided up makes sense, =
but it's years too late; we could have avoided the PC nightmare, and =
therefore CR as well (and maybe have enjoyed the EL a little while =
longer, sorry off topic).

Whew! That's enough for me for a while!=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: rholden=20
  To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20
  Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 10:06 AM
  Subject: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?


  Good Morning PRR-List...O.K. it's Sunday, we might have a little more =
time for this question. We've all had a lot of feelings about this =
subject, and without beating a dead horse...I really would like to know =
what you all think. If my memory serves me right, I remember the PRR =
(and other roads, as well) back in the time after WWII, facing a host of =
competition from the trucking industry and gov't regulations, etc, etc. =
The ICC still is much involved, but would there have been a better =
chance for the Pennsy today? Suppose Stuart Saunders and his other =
buddies would have found a better merge partner than NYC? But the PRR =
was instrumental in many modern engineering designs and bought about =
Truc-Train service...things that today's NS and CSX are making major =
money on...a lot of it on an infrastructure that was built by the PRR. =
I'd like to see Conrail or NS build a Rockville Bridge or a Pennsylvania =
Station in New York with todays dollars without gov't intervention. I =
know I'm partial to the PRR, and this is stuff that has been hashed =
about for years, but after riding Amtrak for a couple of days, I miss =
the Pennsy that much more!  Regards, everybody...Bob. =
rholden@superpa.net=20

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>I think one of the problems the PRR had was its slowness to adopt =
TCS/CTC=20
on a systemwide scale and rationalize it's excess trackage (an area in =
which the=20
NYC unfortunately beat the pants off 'em). I feel if the PRR had done =
this, and,=20
with all railroads, found earlier relief from excessive government =
regulation=20
&amp; intervention (hello Mr. Staggers), she would have lasted much =
longer,=20
although she would surely have been involved in today's mega-merger =
movement.=20
Also PRR should have merged with N&amp;W/NKP rather than NYC (who should =
have=20
gone with C&amp;O/B&amp;O).&nbsp;That's why the way the ex-Conrail =
trackage was=20
divided up makes sense, but it's years too&nbsp;late; we could have =
avoided the=20
PC nightmare, and therefore CR as well (and maybe have enjoyed the EL a =
little=20
while longer, sorry off topic).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Whew! That's enough for me for a while!&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:rholden@superpa.net" =
title=3Drholden@superpa.net>rholden</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:prr-talk@dsop.com"=20
  title=3Dprr-talk@dsop.com>prr-talk@dsop.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 05, 2000 =
10:06=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [PRR] PRR/Post Merger=20
  Question?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Good Morning PRR-List...O.K. it's Sunday, we might =
have a=20
  little more time for this question. We've all had a lot of feelings =
about this=20
  subject, and without beating a dead horse...I really would like to =
know what=20
  you all think.&nbsp;If my memory serves me right, I remember the PRR =
(and=20
  other roads, as well) back in the time after WWII, facing a host of=20
  competition from the trucking industry and gov't regulations, etc, =
etc. The=20
  ICC still is much involved, but would there have been a better chance =
for the=20
  Pennsy today? Suppose Stuart Saunders and his other buddies would have =
found a=20
  better merge partner than NYC? But the PRR was instrumental in many =
modern=20
  engineering designs and bought about Truc-Train service...things that =
today's=20
  NS and CSX are making major money on...a lot of it on an =
infrastructure that=20
  was built by the PRR. I'd like to see Conrail or NS build a Rockville =
Bridge=20
  or a Pennsylvania Station in New York with todays dollars without =
gov't=20
  intervention. I know I'm partial to the PRR, and this is stuff that =
has been=20
  hashed about for years, but after riding Amtrak for a couple of days, =
I miss=20
  the Pennsy that much more!&nbsp; Regards, everybody...Bob. <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:rholden@superpa.net">rholden@superpa.net</A>=20
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:33:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4

List,

    While this thread about  K4 1361 continues I thought I would throw
this comment out to see if anyone else heard of this.. I know it is
probably impossible to confirm unless there is someone with first hand
knowledge. Mr Volkmer? According to a high PRR, later Conrail and now an
NS  Official  from Pittsburgh, (Greentree Office),  K4s #1361 had and
still has a major flaw. During its regular years of service the trailing
truck (I believe that is the part, it maybe the pony truck) had a
tendency to derail. This was due to the loco frame not being built
squarely or having become warped over time. This Offical, who's first
name is "Max", most of you know who this is, said the #1361 was a lemon
the day it was built.  It is hard to believe that since the 1361
operated a lot longer than most other K's.  Has anyone else heard
anything similar to this story? If true, I hope the future operators of
the K have no problems when hitting those speeds of 60 mph. 
     And while everyone has a wish list to where they would like to see
the K4 run, my wish is to see the K run from Altoona, up the Curve to
the Galitzin turnaround and return. A one time run, once  a month run
during the summer months would be great. This is guaranteed not to
happen as we all know how big of steam fans the NS is. Remember what
they did with the J and A?  I realize  this is a working Railroad too so
any chance of the K4 seeing mainline service is just about zero! The
most likely area the K will run is back to the Bald Eagle Branch. IF the
NS gives them permission to do that. Time and money will tell......Gary    




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 12:53:04 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?



BPX29@aol.com wrote:

>  In order for a
> marginally profitable carrier like the Pennsy to throw away big income from
> N&W and Wabash stock in order to merge with an equally marginal NYC and
> absolute money loser like the New Haven , logic has to be discarded. The only
> rational explanation is that Saunders and Pearlman stood to make large
> personal gains.

With all due respect... You're kidding, right?  At least on that last comment?
Perlman was against the merger.  The PRR did not give up ownership of N&W and
Wabash "in order to merge" with the NYC; it was forced to give up its interests
in those two carriers as a condition of the N&W-NKP merger.  It could have said
"no" and derailed the eastern merger movement, and graciously did disinvest in
the hopes that its own merger would also be approved.  But the income form those
two investments was keeping the railroad alive.

> If they's been actually looking
> out for the PRR interest they would have sought a healthy partner, instead of
> a competing one.

The name of the game then--as now, by the way, judging from Conrail's
performance--is cost control.  There was no way to "grow" the business; the
business itself, not just the PRR, was in decline.  What better way to cut costs
than to merge with one of your prime competitors.  Unfortunately, the
incompetence of management, the utter lack of proper planning, and the economic
climate of the period doomed the effort from the start.

Seriously speaking, the railroad industry of today is at a similar
crossroads--check out the latest issue of Railway Age.  Costs have been cut to
the very bone--into the bone on some carriers; and they still are unable to cover
the costs of capital.  Something will have to change pretty soon, or else.

Richard Wallis



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Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 13:26:34 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4

Rick and the List,

I've seen shots of single K4s engines on the NYLB making time with 11 and 12
cars (and these were heavyweight P70s); with today's lighter commuter coaches,
there's no reason a restored K4s couldn't handle more cars (ie more passengers,
and more revenue dollars for someone organizing a trip).  Are you thinking of
breaking her in on the NYLB?  I thought they were going to break the 1361 in at
and around Scranton.

Doug

PRRMAN@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 00-03-03 19:08:36 EST, rickstug@mindspring.com writes:
>
> << Anyone else want to see 1361 storm out of South Amboy and run down
>  the NY&LB like days of old? It's just too bad she couldn't take over from a
> G >>
>
> I'd love that!  But they would have to make the consist short,
> or else use a diesel helper (unless another working K4 can be
> found!).  Imagine how much a sponsoring fan group could charge
> per seat on a 6-7 car train on 1361's "first run"....
>
> Rich Copeland
>
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Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 13:34:21 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] A running K-4

Gary and the list,

According to Loeb's Altoona and the Pennsylvania Railroad:  Between a Roar
and a Whimper, K4s 1361 ran 2,496,000 miles during her 39 years of service
(May 1918 to May, 1957).  I find it difficult to believe that the PRR would
run a bad engine that long (or fail to find a way to correct the engine's
flaws in that time period).  I was last at Scranton in 1997; when I took the
shop tour and saw the 1361, she had been stripped down to boiler and frame.
The rear of her frames had been replaced with a steel casting.  The area
replaced looked to be from the trailing truck back.

The only explanation I can think of is that at some point the rear of her
fabricated frames needed renewal, or a casting was made to save weight (ie
reduce axle loadings) as was done on K5 5698 (but she had a bed frame from
birth, specifically to save weight at the rear of the engine).  Before I saw
the 1361, I didn't think this type of hybrid frame was possible, but go
figure!

Doug

Gary Mittner wrote:

> List,
>
>     While this thread about  K4 1361 continues I thought I would throw
> this comment out to see if anyone else heard of this.. I know it is
> probably impossible to confirm unless there is someone with first hand
> knowledge. Mr Volkmer? According to a high PRR, later Conrail and now an
> NS  Official  from Pittsburgh, (Greentree Office),  K4s #1361 had and
> still has a major flaw. During its regular years of service the trailing
> truck (I believe that is the part, it maybe the pony truck) had a
> tendency to derail. This was due to the loco frame not being built
> squarely or having become warped over time. This Offical, who's first
> name is "Max", most of you know who this is, said the #1361 was a lemon
> the day it was built.  It is hard to believe that since the 1361
> operated a lot longer than most other K's.  Has anyone else heard
> anything similar to this story? If true, I hope the future operators of
> the K have no problems when hitting those speeds of 60 mph.
>      And while everyone has a wish list to where they would like to see
> the K4 run, my wish is to see the K run from Altoona, up the Curve to
> the Galitzin turnaround and return. A one time run, once  a month run
> during the summer months would be great. This is guaranteed not to
> happen as we all know how big of steam fans the NS is. Remember what
> they did with the J and A?  I realize  this is a working Railroad too so
> any chance of the K4 seeing mainline service is just about zero! The
> most likely area the K will run is back to the Bald Eagle Branch. IF the
> NS gives them permission to do that. Time and money will tell......Gary
>
> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA
>
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 14:21:24 -0500
From: jpbtrans <jpbtrans@gateway.net>
Subject: [PRR] Farmdale Jct.

Good afternoon List
 In an earlier posts answering my questions about the Peoria branch, it
was mentioned that the PRR went onto NKP tracks at Farmdale Jct.
Can anyone tell me anything about the Jct? Was the NKP single track?
Were there any sidings on either line at the Jct? Type of tower? All
info would be welcome.
Thank you for the help!!
Jon Anderson
jpbtrans@gateway.net

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 14:29:02 -0500

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Barry...my sentiments exactly. It's interesting to look at what made the =
southern roads profitable,i,e...the Norfolk & Western, Southern. History =
proves to us that is (Pearlman & Saunders) exactly what happened. =
Amazing, considering that Saunders , in my opinion...was not a railroad =
man...a N & W lawyer. And for all the great comments the board has =
recieved...it is elementary to consider that NYC was the worse choice =
(my opinion) for a merger partner...unless you consider the money these =
Penn Central advocates were gonna make. Sad...the Standard Railroad of =
the Road trashed for the gain of a few stockholders and board members. =
Still, though, it amazes me to this day...how can a company take what is =
profitable and merge with the marginally profitable. Defies logic! =
Gentlemen...correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Pearlman wanted to =
keep more of the long distance trains than did Pearlman...odd the '20th =
Century was gone before they even merged! To be continued...Bob

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Barry...my sentiments exactly. It's interesting to =
look at=20
what made the southern roads profitable,i,e...the Norfolk &amp; Western, =

Southern. History proves to us that is (Pearlman &amp; Saunders) exactly =
what=20
happened. Amazing, considering that Saunders , in my opinion...was not a =

railroad man...a N &amp; W lawyer. And for all the great comments the =
board has=20
recieved...it is elementary to consider that NYC was the worse choice =
(my=20
opinion) for a merger partner...unless you consider the money these Penn =
Central=20
advocates were gonna make. Sad...the Standard Railroad of the Road =
trashed for=20
the gain of&nbsp;a few stockholders and board members. Still, though, it =
amazes=20
me to this day...how can a company take what is profitable and merge =
with the=20
marginally profitable. Defies logic! Gentlemen...correct me if I'm =
wrong, but I=20
believe Pearlman wanted to keep more of the long distance trains than =
did=20
Pearlman...odd the '20th Century was gone before they even merged! To be =

continued...Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR?NYC
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 14:30:31 -0500

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Rick...you are a bullseye with your comments! Later...Bob

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rick...you are a bullseye with your comments!=20
Later...Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Pearlman
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 14:42:18 -0500

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I know this is not a forum for the New York Central...but Richard, I =
wonder if 'publically' Pearlman was against the "merger". He had been =
quoted, long after the fact, that he felt it was a PRR 'takeover'. I do =
not believe Pearlman's heart was in it...perhaps Saunders pushed it down =
the throat of the NYC. Still, these two partners absolutely knew what =
was going to happened. I want to offend no one, but years later...most =
of Penn Central makes me sick. But I do feel it's possible for both =
Pearlman and Saunders to place blame, after the fact, on each =
other...and that's exactly what they did. Leaving what was left of both =
roads, in shambles. It took almost 30 years to begin to recover...at =
least, (in my opinion) for the former roads to recover through Conrail. =
I would have much rather seen the Reading and Erie Lackawanna last =
longer than ever see Penn Central. I know that this didn't all begin and =
end with the Penn Central...I believe the PRR was talking merger with =
the NYC well before Saunders was involved...as early as the early =
fifties! Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I know this is not a forum for the New York =
Central...but=20
Richard, I wonder if 'publically' Pearlman was against the "merger". He =
had been=20
quoted, long after the fact, that he felt it was a PRR =
'takeover'.&nbsp;I do not=20
believe Pearlman's heart was in it...perhaps Saunders pushed it down the =
throat=20
of the NYC. Still, these two partners absolutely knew what was going to=20
happened. I want to offend no one, but years later...most of Penn =
Central makes=20
me sick. But I do feel it's possible for both Pearlman and Saunders to =
place=20
blame, after the fact, on each other...and that's exactly what they did. =
Leaving=20
what was left of both roads, in shambles. It took almost 30 years to =
begin to=20
recover...at least, (in my opinion) for the former roads to recover =
through=20
Conrail. I would have much rather seen the Reading and Erie Lackawanna =
last=20
longer than ever see Penn Central. I know that this didn't all begin and =
end=20
with the Penn Central...I believe the PRR was talking merger with the =
NYC well=20
before Saunders was involved...as early as the early fifties! Someone =
correct me=20
if I'm wrong.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:37:17 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

In a message dated 3/5/00 8:43:21 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
GenJim833@aol.com writes:

<< 1. Pennsylvania+ Cotton Belt+Southern Pacific = Pennsylvania Southern 
Pacific 
 Lines >>

I could see this happening.  The PRR and SSW had some very strong freight 
pools out of St. Louis in the 60's.  This would make a very natural end to 
end merger.

<<  2.New York Central+ Milwaukee Road+ Union Pacific=New York Central 
Pacific >>

I can't see the Milwaukee involved in this at all.  They were not a very 
strong railroad when it cam to trans-continental operations.  They were 
always a day late, and a dollar short.  Also, a merger between the NYC and UP 
wopuld have resulted in a larger UP system.  The UP has never been the lesser 
in any merger.  They have always been too strong.  However, I could see a 
merger of the NYC and CB&Q.  This would be a good end to end merger.

 << Wabash, Chesapeake and Ohio, Pere Marquette, Norfolk and Western would 
all 
 become parts of midwestern regional systems. How are these for possibilities 
 of what might have been? >>

The problem with all of this is the fact that the ICC would have never 
allowed it.  A Transcontinental railroad would have severly limited 
competition in their eyes during the 60's.

Stuart Thayer

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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:46:47 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pearlman

The Penn Central merger talks began with James Symes and Robert R. Young back 
in 1957. Young was head of the Central at the time while Symes was head of 
the Pennsy and Stuart Saunders' direct predecessor. The talks were resumed 
after Young's death in early 1958 with Al Perlman who never really wanted 
this particular merger to begin with. Mr. Perlman wanted to become part of 
the C&O-B&O system rather than part of the Pennsylvania or else become part 
of the enlarged system that Norfolk and Western was then conceiving back in 
the 1960s. Since neither was interested in Central, Perlman was stuck with 
the Pennsy. A very bad hand was delt to all. It all started going down the 
toilet from day 1 of the merger. The computer-related glitches experienced by 
the Penn Central with its incompatible systems w as very similar to those 
Norfolk Southern experienced with its part of Conrail's system, so what goes 
around has a way of coming around, and with one hell of a bite, no less!

Jim Mancuso
Perry, NY

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From: "J. R. N. Witmer" <jwitmer@mail1.21stcentury.net>
Subject: [PRR] import
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:33:08 -0600

>I replied to this last week but never saw it on the list, so it must have
>gone to La-La Land. The PRR did indeed import a strange beas (with a 2-4-0
>or 2-2-2-0 wheel arrangement)  from England. The date was 1888, andf the
>locomotive was a three-cylinder compound designed by F. W. Webb and built
>by Beyer-Peacock and Company.
>The locomotive had two high-pressure cylinders 14" by 24" driving the rear
>axle. A single low-pressure cylinder 30", by 24" drove the front axle by
>means of a crank in the axle. Steam pressure was 175 lbs. Driver diameter
>was 75" and tractive effort (compound) was a whopping 16,400 lbs. The two
>axles were independently driven which is why you could consider it a
>2-2-2-0. Maybe an ancestor to the T1?
>The locomotive didn't really have the right right stuff for North American
>service and was scrapped in 1898.
>
>Captain Jack, looking for information on the PRR's branch to Peoria.



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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR/What could have been
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:50:22 -0500

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Jim...excellent points. Another interesting part of history. What would =
have happened had Robert Young not passed away...what a tragedy! He =
really supported passenger operations, if I remember correctly. I think =
he was responsible for the 'Sunburst' B & O scheme that I remember way =
back when I was watching the Western Maryland, B & O and the =
Pennsylvania here in Baltimore. It just always seemed that the PRR =
always vacillated on decisions, sticking with something way to long. And =
I'm not talking the steam versus diesel arguments. I'm talking survival. =
I don't know about you all-list-, but I seemed to remember there was a =
recession, I think in 1959, and a railroad strike...but whatever...the =
PRR that I remember was never the same after about that date...clearly a =
time when President Symes was talking with the NYC. Correct me if I'm =
wrong folks. Where I lived there seemed to be a dramatic decline in road =
maintenence, the motor power looked a little more drab...like the classy =
road the PRR was, it just seemed like you really could see the =
handwriting on the wall. But the New York Central! In Baltimore...we =
never would have wanted Vanderbilt's road. The Pennsy worked hard like =
the city I lived in. Cripes, if you missed a NYC train...tough. The PRR =
would 'always, always pull cars and run sections. Looks like history =
proved that Stuart Saunders and a few others did in six years what =
Vanderbilt could never do. And as far as the decline of the steel =
industry in Pittsburgh, I also grew up in a steel city (Beth Steel, =
Sparrow Point) and we have a lot of the legislators in Washington who =
allowed tons of foreign steel on us...also (in my opinion) ruined the =
railroads, taxed them to death, played favorites with the Interstate =
system and fell in love with the trucking companines. And if it wasn't =
for the PRR, there would have been no Conrail. They would have had no =
infrastructure to work with. West of Pittsburgh, I can't even find =
traces of the PRR! Still amazes me to this day!

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jim...excellent points. Another interesting part of =
history.=20
What would have happened had Robert Young not passed away...what a =
tragedy! He=20
really supported passenger operations, if I remember correctly. I think =
he was=20
responsible for the 'Sunburst' B &amp; O scheme that I remember way back =
when I=20
was watching the Western Maryland, B &amp; O and the Pennsylvania here =
in=20
Baltimore. It just always seemed that the PRR always vacillated on =
decisions,=20
sticking with something way to long. And I'm not talking the steam =
versus diesel=20
arguments. I'm talking survival. I don't know about you all-list-, but I =
seemed=20
to remember there was a recession, I think in 1959, and a railroad =
strike...but=20
whatever...the PRR that I remember was never the same after about that=20
date...clearly a time when President Symes was talking with the NYC. =
Correct me=20
if I'm wrong folks. Where I lived there seemed to be a dramatic decline =
in road=20
maintenence, the motor power looked a little more drab...like the classy =
road=20
the PRR was, it just seemed like you really could see the handwriting on =
the=20
wall. But the New York Central! In Baltimore...we never would have =
wanted=20
Vanderbilt's road. The Pennsy worked hard like the city I lived in. =
Cripes, if=20
you missed a NYC train...tough. The PRR would 'always, always pull cars =
and run=20
sections. Looks like history proved that Stuart Saunders and a few =
others did in=20
six years what Vanderbilt could never do. And as far as the decline of =
the steel=20
industry in Pittsburgh, I also grew up in a steel city (Beth Steel, =
Sparrow=20
Point) and we have a lot of the legislators in Washington who allowed =
tons of=20
foreign steel on us...also (in my opinion) ruined the railroads, taxed =
them to=20
death, played favorites with the Interstate system and fell in love with =
the=20
trucking companines. And if it wasn't for the PRR, there would have been =
no=20
Conrail. They would have had no infrastructure to work with. West of =
Pittsburgh,=20
I can't even find traces of the PRR! Still amazes me to this=20
day!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] J-I Bowser Project?
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:55:13 -0500

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O.K. I've talked about the Penn Central stuff long enough! Before I wear =
out my welcome...I've been away for a while, can any body fill me in on =
what Mr. English and Bowser are doing with the J-I? I have heard nothing =
except that they were trying to get the drawings from, I guess, the =
archives on the J-I. Anything that I should know about...such as what =
version is gonna be done? Don't burn any bridges getting back to me =
guys, but I'd sure appreciate hearing from you all. Any price point =
decided yet? Regards, all...Bob

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>O.K. I've talked about the Penn Central stuff long =
enough!=20
Before I wear out my welcome...I've been away for a while, can any body =
fill me=20
in on what Mr. English and Bowser are doing with the J-I? I have heard =
nothing=20
except that they were trying to get the drawings from, I guess, the =
archives on=20
the J-I. Anything that I should know about...such as what version is =
gonna be=20
done? Don't burn any bridges getting back to me guys, but I'd sure =
appreciate=20
hearing from you all. Any price point decided yet? Regards,=20
all...Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: CAl2446507@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:05:03 EST
Subject: [PRR] K-4

How about running it on the PRSL to Atlantic City on NJ Trainsit out of 30th 
Street.
                                                                     Charlie

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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] import
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:29:57 -0500

You said:

"The two
>axles were independently driven which is why you could consider it a
>2-2-2-0. Maybe an ancestor to the T1?
>The locomotive didn't really have the right right stuff for North American
>service and was scrapped in 1898."

Considering the expense and considering the failure, Pperhaps we should
class this as  a T 1/2.  :-)

Lew





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From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:39:33 EST
Subject: [PRR] MDF underlayment

Has anybody used medium density fiberbard for underlayment instead of 
plywood?  It appears to have a number of advantages including two smooth 
sides without the problems of particle board.  Any experiences or comments?

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 19:36:43 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

Richard Wallis wrote:
"With all due respect... You're kidding, right?  At least on that last 
comment?
Perlman was against the merger.  The PRR did not give up ownership of N&W and
Wabash "in order to merge" with the NYC; it was forced to give up its 
interests
in those two carriers as a condition of the N&W-NKP merger.  It could have 
said
"no" and derailed the eastern merger movement, and graciously did disinvest in
the hopes that its own merger would also be approved.  But the income form 
those
two investments was keeping the railroad alive."
-----
Now you're joking, correct? The Pennsy "graciously" disinvested in hopes of 
being allowed to merge?  43% of N&W's stock and most of Wabash's (actually 
owned, by the way, by the Pennsylvania Company...the dreaded P COMPANY) on 
the "hopes" it might make the ICC think they were nice folks? Come on! 
Dumping that stock was very much a requirement, as much so as taking the New 
Haven
As for Perlman "being against the merger", aside from taking his word for it 
years later, after he'd mauled the WP, that's inconceivable. It was very, 
very diffacult to get merger permission when both parties begged for it. How 
far along do you suppose it would get if one of the parties was "against' the 
merger? This was no hostile take over...the poor Pennsy didn't have any cash 
for taking over anything by that time.
Poor Perlman, so maligned. And how could anyone harbor any suspicions against 
a good corporate lawyer like Mr. Saunders.
Those guys make me glad to be a B&O fan. Which reminds me, my annual dues for 
the B&OHS are about due. Spring's here already.
Barry Peltier

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] 
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:09:29 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF86DE.B6E84400
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Barry...Your comments are excellent...and appreciated! Let me clarify =
that I was not attempting to put Mr. Pearlman in good light or bad =
light. I just meant that what he might have said publcally in memoirs or =
in the press meant nothing as what was agreed upon in the board room. As =
a matter of record...I believe the PRR initiated the talks...and =
initially, I believe Pearlman had no interest, until things got =
dramatically worse for the NYC. Neither were saints. Many feel that it =
wasn't a merger at all...from a NYC point of view it was a takeover! I =
just meant that they (Pearlman, Saunders made strange partners! The rest =
is history anyway. Barry, do you know what ever happened to Pearlman =
after the WP? And was I correct to assume that Robert Young was =
responsible for the B & O Sunburst Scheme. After all...I saw a lot of it =
in Baltimore. Thanks for your comments! Bob Holden=20

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF86DE.B6E84400
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Barry...Your comments are excellent...and =
appreciated! Let me=20
clarify that I was not attempting to put Mr. Pearlman in good light or =
bad=20
light. I just meant that what he might have said publcally in memoirs or =
in the=20
press meant nothing as what was agreed upon in the board room. As a =
matter of=20
record...I believe the PRR initiated the talks...and initially, I =
believe=20
Pearlman had no interest, until things got dramatically worse for the =
NYC.=20
Neither were saints. Many feel that it wasn't a merger at all...from a =
NYC point=20
of view it was a takeover! I just meant that they (Pearlman, Saunders =
made=20
strange partners! The rest is history anyway. Barry, do you know what =
ever=20
happened to Pearlman after the WP? And was I correct to assume that =
Robert Young=20
was responsible for the B &amp; O Sunburst Scheme. After all...I saw a =
lot of it=20
in Baltimore. Thanks for your comments! Bob Holden =
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF86DE.B6E84400--


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Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 20:10:30 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Important Convention Announcement
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

The Schedule of Events for the Annual Meeting of the PRRT&HS is now set in
stone. My information comes directly from Ivan Frantz, convention
coordinator and a director of the Society.

The schedule of events is located on the Cyber Division web site.

    http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com

The schedule appearing previous to today had all of the correct seminars,
but the time slots have since been shuffled around. Now they are all fixed.

There are also a few seats left for the Cyber Division / PRR-Talk dinner on
Friday night.

The five-page convention materials have been printed. Ivan is waiting on the
envelopes. He expects the mailer to go out in 7-10 days.

HOWEVER, Ivan has given me permission to place the registration materials
online, which I have done. Go to the schedule on the Cyber Division site
and, near the top, you will find a link to a PDF file which includes all
five pages as they will appear when those on the mailing list receive them.

I am recommending that you go ahead and register if you know that you are
going, for several reasons.

1. The banquet is limited to 350 this year. It normally allows 500. It
always sells out.

2. If you plan to be a vendor, vendor space always sells out. There are 85
tables this year.

Hope to see many of you in Camp Hill this May!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: BBReynolds@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:50:54 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Post merger

In a message dated 3/5/2000 12:19:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
walpru@stargate.net writes:

> US Gov. in reviewing how USAAF as well as RAF was able to pound Ruhr in 
> Germany determined that "vital" industries, in case of nuclear attack, had 
to 
> be decentralized.Witness what has happened .

How, might I ask, did the "US Gov." implement the decentralization of the 
steel
industry???

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA

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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:25:27 -0500

Not a bad idea either! NJT controls that line too (at least from SHORE
over).
----- Original Message -----
From: <CAl2446507@aol.com>
To: <Prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 6:05 PM
Subject: [PRR] K-4


> How about running it on the PRSL to Atlantic City on NJ Trainsit out of
30th
> Street.
>
Charlie
>
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Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 23:10:55 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

Barry:

I'm sorry, but history contradicts you.  I'll say it again: the requirement that
the PRR give up its 43 percent interest in the N&W came from the N&W-NKP merger,
not--repeat, NOT the PRR-NYC merger.  James Symes, the president of the PRR who
agreed to to honor this requirement, knew that if he did not help facilitate the
N&W-NKP merger, his own planned consolidation with the NYC would be seriously
compromised politically.  That is not conjecture, that is fact.

As for Mr. Perlman, he was "on the record" with many of his NYC staff who attested
to his resistance to the merger.  But after the C&O-B&O merger was put together
and his attempt to include the NYC in that union failed, Perlman quite literally
faced a 'fate acompli.'  Moreover, once Penn Central was a fact, Perlman did very
little to insure its success.

Richard Wallis


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From: Paul Stumpff <urr304@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Post merger
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:11:17 -0500

Bruce:
The Federal government had a big push to decentralize industry after WWII as noted by posters. Following was a part of an advertisement for industrial development in the PRR's East-West Public tt of Jan.1949.

"Over 3000 communities provide opportunity for plant locations outside congested industrial areas, meeting urgent recommendations of National Security Resources Board for dispersal of industry to areas which would be relatively safe in event of atomic attack."

In the same advertisement, PRR touted the fact that they served 9 of the 11 largest US cities; presumably those places would be targeted in an attack.

Why would anyone invest in their old mills that the Federal government is telling them are already considered casualities. 

On other facets of this discussion, please refer to the book, "Wreck of the Penn Central"; although I do not abscribe to all observations it is the best place to start studying this affair. 

Perlman could have had reservations on merger even as NYC and PRR were working on doing it, because his board had already approved the process. It took so long in those days to get approval, he figured if NYC pulled a miracle or actually got to implement a merger with C&O/B&O, merger with PRR could have been averted. The balance sheet just got worse and C&O/B&O plans went away, so he stopped outside resistance to merger. Whether he expressed his doubts other than to NYC confidants is another thing. 

Mr. Young's unfortunate end may have delayed the process several years that if PC had had perhaps it would have had the capital and the time to put together something, or at least a decent company ripe for merger with a western partner. Instead, Perlman's stalling with the regulatory process itself cut the available time down. PRR could take blame for some of the capital because it continued its dividend when it should not have. 

Too many organization men in both groups was a problem. It is okay to not be talking to outsiders about problems, but there was never enough honest talk inside both organizations to work on solutions. Saunders' relationship with his own chief financial officer, Bevan, was also another factor. 

Tie all this along with an aging physical plant, a shrinking traffic base, taking on New Haven for government's sake, continued losses on passenger service that government turned a deaf ear to, and not rationalizing labor force; this goose was cooked before it got to the kitchen. 

Oh well.
Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio]

-----Original Message-----
From:	BBReynolds@aol.com [SMTP:BBReynolds@aol.com]
Sent:	Sunday, March 05, 2000 8:51 PM
To:	walpru@stargate.net; prr-talk@dsop.com
Cc:	BBReynolds@aol.com
Subject:	Re: [PRR] Post merger

In a message dated 3/5/2000 12:19:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
walpru@stargate.net writes:

> US Gov. in reviewing how USAAF as well as RAF was able to pound Ruhr in 
> Germany determined that "vital" industries, in case of nuclear attack, had 
to 
> be decentralized.Witness what has happened .

How, might I ask, did the "US Gov." implement the decentralization of the 
steel
industry???

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA



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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:22:12 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?Reply

Barry,

In context:
<< ...to merge with an equally marginal NYC and absolute money loser like the 
New Haven, logic has to be discarded. >>
 I can't argue with the rational of the NYC portion but you have to remember 
the bankrupt New Haven was thrust into the deal by the courts, not at the PRR 
and NYC's choice.  

<<The only rational explanation is that Saunders and Perlman stood to make 
large 
personal gains. They certainly couldn't have honestly tried to make the 
merger work...>>

Not so fast, these gentlemen both had golden parachutes regardless if it 
worked or not.  But both would stand to fair better if they could have pulled 
it off. There is one individual that almost always escapes the blame ... the 
Devil himself... David Bevan.  He lost more of the PRR as well as Penn 
Central's money and personally profited more than any one individual.  That 
man needed to go to jail forever!  

Not to say that there was not a hit list in Saunders office as well as 
Perlman's office.  And remember the Red Team/Green Team?  

<<Of course, at that time the ICC wasn't keen on end to end mergers, 
especially if they jumped the invisible wall separating eastern from western 
carriers. (Still largely that way.)>>

A transcontinental merger would have been and would be now welcomed by the 
then ICC and now the STB.  The reason as I see it why a east/west merger has 
never been purposed is which powerful railroad and it's leader(s) would be in 
control? I deal with the railroads on a daily basis and hey are absolute 
control freaks! 

Food for thought!

Greg Martin 

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:46:30 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Reply #2 

Bob and all,

I think we are talking about Alfred E. Perlman...  Not << Pearlman >>

The merger was courted around the politicians long before 1968. Alfred 
Perlman did his best to hide his companies debt as did James Symes. Saunders 
was a puppet to Symes.  The New York Central was looking for a merger to 
happen long before 1960.  Symes knew in his article in Trains magazine in 
1955 that the PRR was in trouble and he alluded to it then.  The condition of 
the physical plant was in shambles as a result of W.W.II when the profit 
taking by the railroad executives was GOOD.  


Greg Martin   

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:59:17 EST
Subject:  [PRR] Perlman

Gize,

Why do we look to blame the NYC people, it goes right back to the Red 
Team/Green Team battles?  It was a mission on self destruction...

<< It took almost 30 years to begin to recover...at least, (in my opinion) 
for the former roads to recover through Conrail.>>

Wrong, it took deregulation to heal all the railroads wounds!  It could have 
happened in 1968 if Congress would have deregulated the industry and did it 
before it deregulated the trucking industry, now that would have made a 
difference quicker.

<<...I believe the PRR was talking merger with the NYC well before Saunders 
was involved...as early as the early fifties! Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 >>

No, they did not start merger talks with the NYC until November 1, 1957.  But 
the NYC had been courting a new partner for years.

Greg Martin 

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 02:31:15 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Post merger

Gize,

The US Government never decentralized it, they abolished it with the graces 
of the steel companies, by financing it through the EPA.  

Greg Martin 

<< How, might I ask, did the "US Gov." implement the decentralization of the 
 steel
 industry??? >>

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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 07:14:20 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?Reply



TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote:

>  There is one individual that almost always escapes the blame ... the
> Devil himself... David Bevan.  He lost more of the PRR as well as Penn
> Central's money and personally profited more than any one individual.  That
> man needed to go to jail forever!

All PRR historians should gather around a huge bonfire and burn as many copies of
"The Wreck of The Penn Central" as can be found.  It was written by two
enterprising reporters from the old Philadelphia Evening Bulletin (remember it?)
who had covered the story, and was shot through with factual errors that have
long since been corrected.

While we're at, we should burn the Patman  committee Report as well.  A
self-serving document, it promoted the "evil David Bevan scenario" with a
vengeance, mainly because so many hands were involved--including governmental
hands--that a good scapegoat was needed.  Please--all of you--if you do nothing
else, read Stephen Salisbury's well-documented book, "No Way To Run A Railroad."
It will be an eye opener for you, particularly in the way it explains the
condition of the PRR's pre-Penn Central management situation.

Continuing to rely on Daughen & Binzen as a primary resource for the PC failure
is like using the National Enquirer as a documentary resource for a term paper.
There's too much that's been made available since then that is much more accurate
(and documented).

Richard Wallis


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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 08:37:37 -0500
From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

The ICC wouldn't allow a PRR-N&W merger because of anti-trust
implcations...they worried about such stuff at that time.  Why they then
allowed the PRR-NYC merger is probably politics; both railroads were
financially ailing and at the time it seemed a way to improve both by
dropping costs of duplicate lines, etc--which PC didn't do of course.

Another reason PRR didnd't merge with N&W was cost--N&W was financially
sound and PRR couldn't afford to buy them out.  Of course a N&W-PRR
merger has finally happened tho' not the way PRR folks thought it
would.  JimMcDaniel

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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 08:43:34 -0500
From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

According to the managment books that look at the PC merger, ALL of
PRR's profits for a number of years prior to merger had come from the
dividends of it's N&W stock.  The RR itself lost buckets of money, hence
the deffered maintanence and all that,  leading to the sorry PC merger
with equally sorry NYC. JimMcDaniel

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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 08:51:31 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Condolences to PRR-FAX
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Hate to see any list in hard times, but my heart goes out to the folks at
PRR-FAX.

You see, they placed an ad in the forthcoming issue of "The Keystone" (I saw
an advance copy yesterday) which claims they have more than 500 members
exchanging information online. I just checked the OneList site and see that,
as of today, they only have 163 members.

Now, we now that they only dispurse FAXual information. Therefore, there was
either a typo (which the Keystone editor would surely correct in the next
issue) or they've lost at least 337 members since the ad was submitted! I
don't think I've ever known a list to die so rapidly! In lieu of flowers,
I'll kick off another donation to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.

I understand they are now having a discussion of the woes of the Society.
Been there, done that!

BTW: PRR-Talk subscriber #400 just signed up yesterday...probably as a
result of the coverage at the Harrisburg Train Show. Met a few more listers
there. Good to finally meet you!!!

Also a reminder to all that there is a searchable list archive -- with many
advanced options -- at

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
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For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:52:18 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

Richard Wallis wrote:
I'm sorry, but history contradicts you.  I'll say it again: the requirement
 that
 the PRR give up its 43 percent interest in the N&W came from the N&W-NKP
 merger,
 not--repeat, NOT the PRR-NYC merger.  James Symes, the president of the PRR
 who
 agreed to to honor this requirement, knew that if he did not help facilitate
 the
 N&W-NKP merger, his own planned consolidation with the NYC would be seriously
 compromised politically.  That is not conjecture, that is fact.
-----
This was in response to my original statement that the Pennsy had to divest it's N&W/Wabash stock in order to acheive the PC merger. If I'm wrong about this being a reqirement, why are you stating above that it was a requirement? Perhaps I can put this in a better historical perspective.
In late 1962, the boards of Pennsy and NYC agreed to merge,well before the N&W merger. At this time two other major eastern mergers were in the works: NKP/N&W/Wabash and C&O/B&O. Perlman had tried to be included in C&O/B&O and was soundly refused by the other two carriers. Nobody with any profit potential wanted NYC as a merger partner, so it was back to the PC concept. Now this would have been the largest corporate merger in American history at the time, a fact the ICC was well aware of. And it would have been in control of a long-standing competitor, the NKP/Wabash portions of that system. The Pennsy "leadership" tried to convince the ICC that they had no controlling interest in the N&W or Wabash, but that was too much for even those folks to swallow. So the ICC made it pretty plain: you're not going to have a PC merger, the largest in the USA history, and retain control of your competitors. Now Richard, or anyone else who's ever tried to interpret history, do you really thi!
nk the Pennsy people gave up that stock, the "lifeblood" of PRR's finances, on a mere "hope"? To roll the dice on the very survival of your company on a "hope"? That's not how this world works. If they had of done something that infantile, every stockholder of the Pennsy (or P Company) would have had a right to bring suit. Would you gamble your IRA's and retirement funds on a hope? Neither would they.
I'll return to my original contention. It was illogical for the Pennsy to give up it's N&W and Wabash stock to merge with the NYC. When inclusion of New Haven was made another requirement, it was illogical to proceed with the merger. Perlman and Saunders stood to personally gain regardless because of their golden parachutes and a bit of Penn Central Properties stock, and wouldn't end up hurting in any event. The merged company was totally mismanaged, and management people were allowed to behave in a way that would gotten them fired during probation at most companies. Business elements as simple as computer compatability had been overlooked. One big flop.
Barry Peltier


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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 09:43:52 -0500
From: "Tom Mahon" <tmahon@cfnh.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4

Sign me up!! A nice flat run in Jersey.

Of course, getting through the Speedline areas with steam will make it
interesting. If they got lucky, they could run it the weekend of the
Haddonfield street sale. AH! the smell of burning coal and clouds of
smoke wafting down Kings Hwy, not to mention all the cinders on all the
Beamers, Volvos and Saabs. They'll be screaming!!

Tom Mahon
Merrimack, NH


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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:49:51 -0600 (CST)
From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Engine numbering

>Don and the list,
>
>I won't speak to the rest of the PRR system, but as far as the New York and Long Branch goes, neither PRR nor CNJ ever lettered engines for that line.  Engines were used as necessary; Ks 3750 was a regular on the PRSL but could be
>frequently seen on the New York and Long Branch, while K4s 1361 was a New York and Long Branch regular that could also be seen on the PRSL.  I'll go out on a limb and say that (at least during the 50s) all of PRR's steam in the Eastern
>Region could be used anywhere within the region, without regard for subsidiary status.


Doug and the list.  

I am abstracting "Those Amazing Class D Locomotives for Jerry's project.  The photos are from about 1850 to 1910.  Most are of tenders  are lettered P.R.R. or PENNSYLVANIA and were photographed on Pennsy lines. But there are several engines operating on subsidiary lines.  So the question is:  is engine number 10 (just an example, not a real case) on the subsidiary line also PRR #10?  Or would the engine have been renumbered when sent to the subsidiary line? 

 It would seem that at least in the modern era on the NYLB, PRR sent its own engines to work the line.  But the Cleveland and Pittsburgh tenders behind Class D, Altoona-built engines were lettered C&P, so would the numbers on those engines also be PRR numbers?

Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540



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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:15:45 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Custom Model Painting Services
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

For a new page on Keystone Crossings, will all those who provide custom
model detailing/painting services please e-mail me for inclusion in a new
listing. 

Also, if you have a web site of your work, please include the URL.

Thanks.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:19:52 +0000
From: "Roger P. Hensley" <rhensley@anderson.cioe.com>
Subject: [PRR] Model Railroad Discussion Forum

	I thought that I'd pass this along for those who are into RR
	modeling. This is a rather low volume forum structured so that 
	you can run down the threads that you choose and see all of 
	the messages if you wish.

	I joined to see if I could offer some answers and have already
	picked up some good ideas.


Dale Marthaller wrote:
> We invite you to come and visit our Model Railroad Discussion Forum.
> Our forum works a bit differently than a news group so please take a
> minute to check us out.
>
> We are located at:
> http://www.marthaller.com/forum/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi


Roger

Roger Hensley -
rhensley@anderson.cioe.com
                             
=== The Signal's yours.  High Ball! ===
CID MWR NMRA

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From: "Claus Schlund" <schlund@cwnet.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:28:41 -0800
Subject: [PRR] K4 w/ reversed bell/sanddome

Hi all,

More info on K4 locos w/ reversed bell/sanddome
positions...

While looking thru my long-lost-but recently-found
copy of "Pennsylvania Railroad K-4s Steam Locomotives
of Yesteryear" by Harry Albrecht I found it has
photos of the following K4 locos w/ reversed bell/sanddome
positions: 8373,8378,8278,8309. These are all
"Lines West" locos.

  -  Claus


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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:33:24 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Condolences to PRR-FAX

Jerry,
Interesting info there. But I'm afraid I don't understand the one sentence:
---
Now, we now that they only dispurse FAXual information.
----
What is the meaning of the term "dispurse"? If "purse" would mean something like "pocket" something, usually money, does "dispurse" mean they're paying money? If so, who would I contact to get a little something? I could always use a few extra bucks!
Seriously, I'm only kidding. But I think who's ever keeping you posted has exaggerated any discussion of the PRRT&HS woes. I only saw three postings: the first one expressed alarm at 700 nonrenewals; the second posting expressed curiosity as to how the leadership would react to 700 nonrenewals; and the third posting expressed some very sincere concerns regarding the leadership and past experiences with the same. Nothing too serious as far as volume of postings, though the points raised were certainly valid. I don't feel personally that the FAX list would be a promising arena to launch criticism of the society's leadership. In fact, I don't know of any promising arena to discuss the PRRT&HS, electronic, printed or otherwise. 
Oh well, just to let ya's know.
regards,
Barry Peltier


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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Condolences to PRR-FAX
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 100 12:07:56 -0500 (EST)

Jerry Britton scribit:
> 
> You see, they placed an ad in the forthcoming issue of "The Keystone" (I saw
> an advance copy yesterday) which claims they have more than 500 members
> exchanging information online. I just checked the OneList site and see that,
> as of today, they only have 163 members.

Jerry,
perhaps one might reach 500 if one counts PRR-FAX *plus* all the related
sub-lists? This does result in a lot of double-counting, of course.

-- 
Mark

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From: "Bud Kaiser" <bkaiser@voicenet.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?Reply
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:26:46 -0500

Has anyone read or have comments on the Richard Saunders book, "Railroad
Mergers and the Coming of Conrail"?  I understand that it covers a lot of
the background to the PRR/NYC merger.  I have been unable to locate a copy
although I know of someone who obtained a loan copy through the Central
Philadelphia Library. I was given the author's name but I can't find a
reference to it through the Internet search engines for used/out of print
books.
Bud Kaiser
-


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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:43:40 -0500
From: Casimer P Zakrzewski <zak@acadia.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger

Hi, all.
Bob made a *very* interesting point:  "...unless you
consider the money these Peen Central advocates were
gonna make."
Now I have no idea if any or all of those involved did,
in fact, make any money out of a losing proposition,
however the idea reminds me of the scene in "All That
Jazz" wherein Roy Scheider(sp?) is laying in the
hospital bed - for all intents dying - while the
producers, accountants, and lawyers of the show he was
working on were sitting around a conference table...and
found out that if the show never opened, each of them
would make money on the deal...as long as Scheider (the
play and movie was about the real life Bob Fosse) died.
Interesting scenario for the making of the PC.
Zak

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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:46:23 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] Sources for Saunders' Merger/Conrail book

Someone spoke well of "The Railroad Mergers and the
Coming Of Conrail" by Richard Saunders.

Checking some library catalogs online, I found:

Penn State:
1 each at Altoona, Mont Alto, Abington, and
Harrisburg.
There's one copy at the Paterno Library on main
campus, but it's on loan until 05/04/2000.

Pitt:
1 each at main campus and Bradford.

Clarion:
No have got

IUP:
1 entry in catalog BUT it's marked "lost"

Carnegie Lib. of Pgh:
1 copy at main library.

Published: Westport, CT; Greenwood Press; 1978
ISBN: 0313200491
Call number (PSU and Carnegie): HE2757 1978.S28

Hoping y'ns find this useful,
I remain, 


=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 15:52:44 -0600
From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>
Subject: [PRR] Opperators wanted

Hello to All:

I am currently in the process of looking for model railroaders that
would like to join the fun of operating a large home layout.  I have
been attacking the railroad's construction for about three and a half
years, and feel it will be ready for some serious, or maybe not so
serious, <BG>, operating sessions within the next couple of months.  I
live in the Lehigh Valley, just west of Allentown, so if you're
interested, and live within a reasonable distance, you're invited to
participate.  So far there are four guys that are already part of this
group, but we would like to have more.  Split groups are also a
consideration, depending on how many folks are interested as well as
their individual interests.  In other words, some may be interested in
just running trains while others may be interested in prototype
operations only.  Also, time availability is not usually the same for
all.  There are no current operating rules or procedures, so we will
welcome suggestions from anyone in the proposed group.  The idea is to
have fun, however that is accomplished.

A brief description and track plan can be viewed on Jerry Britton's KC
Model Railroad Layouts at
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/reynolds/reynolds.html   (Scenery is
further along than the discription shows.)

If you're interested, or have questions, please contact me off list.

Regards,

Larry


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From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil
Subject: [PRR] Another subject
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:57:54 -0800 

OK, OK!  After a deafening silence due to my questions on the Allegheny &
South Side RR (Not a single response), I guess I will try another subject.
   Who knows, for circa 1955-65, what kind of cars, specifically, were
generated by the Clairton By-Products plant of USS in Clairton, PA. and
moved out on PRR rails?  Was the interchange site at Maple Avenue yard or
Wilson yard?  How were the various products shipped vis-a-vis what type of
tanks, insulated or uninsulated, capacity, chemical or regular?  Were the
full tanks sent out immediately, or were some stored until a sufficient
number were stocked to fulfill orders elsewhere?  How many coke-filled cars
per day were sent out via PRR (as opposed to URR).  Were the
PRR-interchanged cars standard hoppers or H-21L-type extended hoppers?  Were
the boxcars hauling ammonium sulfate (powder) fitted like a grain boxcar?
What do you know about this end of the business?
   SOMEONE must know some of this stuff.  As I seem to be always asking
questions that no one knows the answers to, or more likely, is about
subjects that no one has any interest in, maybe someone can put me in touch
with someone else who might be a good resource to talk to......
   Many thanks in advance,
Elden

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From: Bill Lane <BLane@wilmar.com>
Subject: [PRR] Larry Reynolds Posting
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:58:31 -0500 

List,

 For those of you who are able to operate Larry's layout, do so. It is an
awesome sight to be seen. I model in S Scale and it takes a lot to impress
me when it comes to HO Layouts. Larry's layout more then impressed me. At
least arrange for a tour. He is a most gracious host.

Thanks
Bill

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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:09:55 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?

In a message dated 00-03-05 13:13:25 EST, rickstug@mindspring.com writes:

<< I feel if the PRR had done this, and, with all railroads, found earlier 
relief from excessive government regulation & intervention  >>

That, in my opinion, is the key to this whole "what-if" discussion.
Suppose the deregulation had happened in 1965?  History would
certainly have been different.  But, what happened, happened!

Rich Copeland

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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:20:47 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Re: The loss of the US Steel Industry
From: Fred G Rea <fredrea@juno.com>

I worked at the US Steel Labs in Monroeville (suburban Pittsburgh)  for a
Summer in 1960.  The guys at the labs had many ways to improve much of
the equipment (furnaces etc).  Two big problems:  US Steel had a huge
investment in facilities and was not about to replace it all.  Many
people told me we had given the Japanese and Germans the chance to build
all new facilities.   The other problem, foreign steel off the boat in
Cleveland was cheaper than American made steel.  Look at steel in
Pittsburgh now.

Fred Rea
________________________________________________________________
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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:43:24 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The loss of the US Steel Industry

Besides that, we can also thank Ronald Reagan, in his eight years of looting 
and plundering this country for finishing off the destruction of our steel 
and other strategic industries, which is why I am not sorry to see him losing 
what passes for a mind. More than any other President, Reagan destroyed not 
only t he steel industry, but much of our other heavy industries, no wonder 
the welfare rolls ended up shooting up after the Reagan years. People could 
not and cannot support their families on the low wage jobs that replaced 
steel making and other such vital industries. May Reagan r ot and burn in 
hell for this.

J. Mancuso

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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 16:50:47 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re:Re:Re: Post Merger Question

Dear Barry & List:

I dunno why I keep trying, but okay--let's have a go at it one more
time:

The N&W-NKP merger was filed in 1960 or 1961--I am not going to put
hours of research into this, so I am giving you approximates.  The point
is, it was in the works well before PRR-NYC was filed in 1962 (second
half of 1962 as I recall).  The condition that the PRR had to divest
itself of N&W came from the ICC administrative judge overseeing the
N&W-NKP merger case (check it out) sometime in 1962 or 1963.  James
Symes had been (since the late 1950s) a rather outspoken advocate of
railroad mergers--he supported the N&W-VGN merger of 1958-59 both in the
press and in the boardroom.  With the conditional requirement that the
PRR sell its N&W stock as a part of the N&W-NKP case, it was deemed
politically expedient (correct) to cooperate, even if it meant giving up
a lot of extremely important income--income that was carrying the
railroad business.  But because the income was so necessary, it became
absolutely paramount to replace the N&W investment with something
equally profitable, hence the reinvestment by Penn Co in Buckeye
Pipeline, etc.

Whether the PRR-NYC merger was approved or not, the railroad's
continuing losses required an alternate source of income to keep the
ship afloat.  Significantly, the merger itself (PRR-NYC) would not
supply any additional profit, ergo, they were not giving up N&W in
"hopes" of getting their merger approved.  The merger itself was seen as
a way to cut the costs of transportation to make the railroad operation
break even, NOT a way to increase profits (they weren't that crazy).

If you are saying that--indirectly--Symes realized that without his
cooperation in the N&W-NKP merger case by selling the N&W stock he was
jeopardizing the chances of his own merger, that is true.  But my point
was and still is that the condition itself did not derive from the
actual PRR-NYC case but rather the N&W-NKP case.

As it turned out, of course, divesting the N&W interest was small
potatoes compared to the active opposition of shippers and various state
and municipal governments.

Richard Wallis


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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:58:31 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The loss of the US Steel Industry

Joe,

Jeeze don't hold back!  One thing I don't remember seeing is Ronald Regan ever standing arm in arm supporting NAFTA.  I dod remember seeing, Slick Willie, George "read my lips" Bush, Jimmy "the Peanut man" Carter, and Gerald "I owe my sole to the oil companies" Ford.  But were was Ronnie... he never support the idea of losing tax dollars to imports.  Unfortunately NAFTA was wished on him. I am not a great Regan supporter as I lived in California during his term as Govenor, but he took care of the state at the time.  He did have a bad habbit of leaving tax increases on the incumbents. He did take on and break the back of the Russian Bear.  Like he said in his early years if we are to break the Russian Bear will will have to out spend them, even if it breaks us.  Spoken like a true Republican Capitolist. And of course he did get deregulation through too. Without this we would still all be partners in Conrail.

Greg Martin  

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:34:04 EST
Subject: [PRR] POLITICAL TIRADES

JERRY,
PLEASE PUT THE BRAKES ON THIS POLITICAL BULLS#@T ASAP. This is jumping into 
some very volatile water, and I don't want to listen to a lot of sociological 
illiteracy when I go to read a posting about railroading and industry. 
Please? It's bad enough having Jesse the Body Ventura for my governor....this 
hobby is supposed to be an escape.
Thank you.
Barry Peltier

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:41:51 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Re:Re: Post Merger Question

Richard,
OK, OK, it's not that important to me. Bigger and smellier fish have surfaced 
on the list and I'm seriously thinking of unsubscribing if it keeps up. Maybe 
I've had my fill of Pennsy fandom for awhile and I better get back in the 
basement and keep working on the layout. Santuary....sanctuary...
Barry Peltier

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From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:52:39 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Another subject

Having worked in the steel industry for many years I can answer some of your 
questions. Dependent on the raw coal make up each push of coke generates 
various amounts of things like benzene and other organics.  Since they are 
hot coming off the coke oven it is merely  a simple job of cooling the mix 
until the various fractions liquify and then storing them in tanks at the 
site until sufficient quantity is generated to create a shipment.  In all my 
time in the steel mills ( 1968 onward) the vast bulk of traffic is handeled 
by tank trucks.  There is no reason why tank cars could not and probably were 
used st some time.  There are 23 known carcinogens generated by coke plants.  
Nearly all the tanks I recall were black with the hazmat chemical diamonds 
like tanks have to indicate procedures in the event of an accident as well as 
a large stenciled label of what it contained.  So tank cars for the chemicals 
and hoppers for the coke if it was being shipped somewhere else.  receiving 
loads would be refractories usually in box cars and machinery usually small 
enough to be shipped in box cars also.

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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 19:13:12 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] N6b details

Hello list,

I'm moving on to the final details of my HO Model Power N6b, and I have
a question or two.  I was unable to access the archives today, so
forgive me if this has been addressed in the past.

Some N6b cabin cars were modernized with Ajax (or some similar
company's) brake stands.  It appears that the trucks were replaced with
trucks like those under the N5c cabin cars at the same time.

When did this modernization occur?  Was it possible for an N6b (in the
late 40s or early 50s) to have old arch bar trucks and the modern brake
stands?

All of the photos I've seen of modernized N6b cabins show that the new
brake stands and cast steel trucks were a package deal.  I went through
both of the Morning Sun PRR color guides and PRR Power III before
posting this.

Thanks in advance!

Doug

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Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 19:36:45 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Engine numbering

Don and the list,

> Don Harper wrote:
>
> I am abstracting "Those Amazing Class D Locomotives for Jerry's project.  The photos are from about 1850 to 1910.  Most are of tenders  are lettered P.R.R. or PENNSYLVANIA and were photographed on Pennsy lines. But there are several engines operating on subsidiary lines.  So the question is:  is engine number 10 (just an example, not a real case) on the subsidiary line also PRR #10?  Or would the engine have been renumbered when sent to the subsidiary line?
>
>  It would seem that at least in the modern era on the NYLB, PRR sent its own engines to work the line.  But the Cleveland and Pittsburgh tenders behind Class D, Altoona-built engines were lettered C&P, so would the numbers on those engines also be PRR numbers?
>
> Don Harper
> Texas A&M Marine Lab
> 5007 Avenue U
> Galveston, TX  77551
> 409/740-4540

I think that some subsidiaries had overlapping numbers with PRR engines before renumbering and absorbtion (sp?).  As one example, PRR D2 American 925 (AMS, 9/1873) was sold to the WJ&S in August 1899 as WJ&S 6.  This engine was scrapped in November 1905 with the WJ&S number 6.

PRR D16b (Juniata, June 1903) 6 was built in June 1903; the two engines overlapped by about two years (D16b 6 was scrapped in November 1926).   My information comes from pages 188  and 211 of Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster.

I think that most of the overlapping, if not all, was eliminated by about 1920 (after all of the subsidiary mergers and the abolition of Lines West), but I'll take corrections cheerfully.

Doug

>
>
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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The loss of the US Steel Industry
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:30:05 -0500

I agree. One can't totally blame Reagan for the systematic plunder of
American manufacturing in general. This has been a policy of big business
for decades and he was one in a long line of officials who they had in their
pockets and gave them his support. The Slickster is also just carrying on
the tradition and it doesn't really matter which party these people are.
    Oh Jeez, off topic! Back to PRR! Sorry.


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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Ronald Reagan!
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 23:10:51 -0500

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Not to open a can of worms, but by the time Reagan came into office we =
were at the bottom of a recession which took six years to dig out of. =
The steel industry was in trouble during the time of Truman and =
Ike...one man wasn't responsible. And I wouldn't wish a lost mind on any =
soul in this world, no matter what. We all have our differences as to =
the cause of the demise of the PRR, not the steel industry, even though =
I know they were vital to the PRR. I'd like to keep the PRR in focus, =
not the demise of U.S.Steel...no disrespect intended guys! And I also, =
hate foreign steel, too! What are you gonna do? Regard, everyone...Bob


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Not to open a can of worms, but by the time Reagan =
came into=20
office we were at the bottom of a recession which took six years to dig =
out of.=20
The steel industry was in trouble during the time of Truman and =
Ike...one man=20
wasn't responsible. And I wouldn't wish a lost mind on any soul in this =
world,=20
no matter what. We all have our differences as to the cause of the =
demise of the=20
PRR, not the steel industry, even though I know they were vital to the =
PRR. I'd=20
like to keep the PRR in focus, not the demise of U.S.Steel...no =
disrespect=20
intended guys! And I also, hate foreign steel, too! What are you gonna =
do?=20
Regard, everyone...Bob<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF87C1.3734AC60--


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From: "RANDY  WILLIAMSON" <pennsy@vbe.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The loss of the US Steel Industry
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:06:00 -0600

which is why I am not sorry to see him losing
> what passes for a mind.

I take this as a personal insult.  My mother is suffering from alzheimers
and this kind of comment is very much uncalled for.  I hope no one in your
family has alzheimers.  You may think twice of making this very repulsive
comment.

Randy Williamson
----- Original Message -----
From: <GenJim833@aol.com>
To: <fredrea@juno.com>; <BBReynolds@aol.com>; <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The loss of the US Steel Industry


> Besides that, we can also thank Ronald Reagan, in his eight years of
looting
> and plundering this country for finishing off the destruction of our steel
> and other strategic industries, which is why I am not sorry to see him
losing
> what passes for a mind. More than any other President, Reagan destroyed
not
> only t he steel industry, but much of our other heavy industries, no
wonder
> the welfare rolls ended up shooting up after the Reagan years. People
could
> not and cannot support their families on the low wage jobs that replaced
> steel making and other such vital industries. May Reagan r ot and burn in
> hell for this.
>
> J. Mancuso
>
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> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>


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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Memories!
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 23:28:24 -0500

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Thanks for your comments, Barry! When I was a kid in Baltimore back in =
the early fifties (showing my age), the PRR was friendly, so was the B & =
O. I got a ride through the B & P tunnel with a pusher on a GGI. I think =
I was so scared, I peed in my pants, but my dad knew all the crews and =
always took me down to Penn Station! If you missed a train on the PRR, =
they would run sections, or try to help you out. Some other roads would =
say, "sorry, come back tommorow!" And not to knock Amtrak (we need =
them)...theyr'e a bus company compared to the PRR...even towards the =
end! I rode the Congressional with my dad quite a few times, as well as =
clockers to Philly... remember what a Pullman Porter shoes looked like? =
They looked like a Marine spit shine...o.k. guys, I'm getting  tired, =
but the memories I will treasure as lone as I live...what a great road =
the PRR was! Regards, everybody! Bob

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks for your comments, Barry! When I was a kid in =
Baltimore=20
back in the early fifties (showing my age), the PRR was friendly, so was =
the B=20
&amp; O. I got a ride through the B &amp; P tunnel with a pusher on a =
GGI. I=20
think I was so scared, I peed in my pants, but my dad knew all the crews =
and=20
always took me down to Penn Station! If you missed a train on the PRR, =
they=20
would run sections, or try to help you out. Some other roads would say, =
"sorry,=20
come back tommorow!" And not to knock Amtrak (we need them)...theyr'e a =
bus=20
company compared to the PRR...even towards the end! I rode the =
Congressional=20
with my dad quite a few times, as well as clockers to Philly... remember =
what a=20
Pullman Porter shoes looked like? They looked like a Marine spit =
shine...o.k.=20
guys, I'm getting&nbsp; tired, but the memories I will treasure as lone =
as I=20
live...what a great road the PRR was! Regards, everybody!=20
Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BF87C3.AB303920--


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Date:  6 Mar 00 23:21:09 EST
From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." <tvpete@usa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re: The loss of the US Steel Industry

Does the person who blamed the loss of the steel industry on Reagan, know that
Reagan was the only US President to head a Labor union?
The problem with our steel plants was they had to compete with the new
plants that truman built for the Germans, under the Marshall Plan after the
war.

____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1

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From: "Walt Prusick" <walpru@stargate.net>
Subject: [PRR] Pennsy & steel
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 07:53:15 -0800

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Dear List,
Allow me to tender my apologies for starting the thread which has lead =
to the discussion as to which "politico" is responsible for the downfall =
of steel in the US.=20
My intent was to point out that "our" railroad is first a transportation =
system, and as such needs products and people to transport. With the =
termination of the steel industry in the Pittsburgh Area, it was only =
natural that the Mighty Pennsy would be adversely affected. Their =
dependence is witnessed by the vast number of hoppers owned for the =
transportation of coal,coke and iron ore for these mills. Anybody =
remember the vast number of these hoppers sitting at such places as =
Holidaysburg and other storage facilities?
Granted Broad St. is in not in Pittsburgh, but I have always felt that =
the "Steel City", and it's products were the linch pin of "our" =
railroad. You had commuters out east, but human nature in the form of =
independence with the help of the auto,put the kibosh to that.
So it is nice to speculate as to what would have happened had "we" =
merged with railroad X, but be aware, the Pennsy was trailing blood like =
a gut shot deer. And much like that deer, about to drop in it's =
tracks.(No pun intended.)
Maybe that is why we model her, in our minds all is right with the world =
and steam is still King (maybe a first generation diesel occasionally). =
But PLEASE DROP THE BASHING!!!

Walt Prusick

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear List,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Allow me to tender my apologies for =
starting the=20
thread which has lead to the discussion as to which "politico" is =
responsible=20
for the downfall of steel in the US. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My intent was to point out that "our" =
railroad is=20
first a transportation system, and as such needs products and people to=20
transport. With the termination of the steel industry in the Pittsburgh =
Area, it=20
was only natural that the Mighty Pennsy would be adversely affected. =
Their=20
dependence is witnessed by the vast number of hoppers owned for the=20
transportation of coal,coke and iron ore for these mills. Anybody =
remember the=20
vast number of these hoppers sitting at such places as Holidaysburg and =
other=20
storage facilities?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Granted Broad St. is in not in =
Pittsburgh, but I=20
have always felt that the "Steel City", and it's products were the linch =
pin of=20
"our" railroad.&nbsp;You had commuters out east, but human nature in the =
form of=20
independence with the help of the auto,put the kibosh to =
that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So it is nice to speculate as to what =
would have=20
happened had "we" merged with railroad X, but be aware, the Pennsy was =
trailing=20
blood like a gut shot deer. And much like that deer, about to drop in =
it's=20
tracks.(No pun intended.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Maybe that is why we model her, in our =
minds all is=20
right with the world and steam is still King (maybe a first generation =
diesel=20
occasionally). But PLEASE DROP THE BASHING!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt Prusick</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF880A.31971A60--


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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 07:55:44 -0500
Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Stop thread on Steel Industry
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Please stop the thread on the steel industry...while interesting to many, it
is not directly related to this list. I have received complaints. Thank you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 08:28:30 EST
Subject: [PRR] Steel Industry

I had just spent a good length of time yesterday crafting a posting outlining 
several of the reasons for the massive changes in the steel industry, 
including obsolete mills, the price basing system, westward movement of the 
steel market, and transportation inequities regarding making steel at inland 
locations vs. waterfront locations. It did not make any disparaging remarks 
about our government. I tried to shed some light on the root causes of the 
massive changes of the 1980s which had their start way back in the 1920s, and 
was partly caused by the railroads, like the PRR.

I had not sent it yet because I was trying to verify some of my facts, but 
since we're not allowed to talk about the industries the PRR served, but only 
the PRR itself, I deleted it. 

That'll teach me from spending too much time in the future working on posts 
for the list.

Rick Rowlands
President
Jeannette Blast Furnace Preservation Association, Inc.
Youngstown, OH
"Preserving Youngstown's Steel Industry Heritage"

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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 10:13:43 -0500
Subject: LISTMASTER: Re: [PRR] Steel Industry
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/7/00 8:28 AM, BigHookX45@aol.com at (BigHookX45@aol.com) wrote:

> I had just spent a good length of time yesterday crafting a posting outlining
> several of the reasons for the massive changes in the steel industry,
> including obsolete mills, the price basing system, westward movement of the
> steel market, and transportation inequities regarding making steel at inland
> locations vs. waterfront locations. It did not make any disparaging remarks
> about our government. I tried to shed some light on the root causes of the
> massive changes of the 1980s which had their start way back in the 1920s, and
> was partly caused by the railroads, like the PRR.
> 
> I had not sent it yet because I was trying to verify some of my facts, but
> since we're not allowed to talk about the industries the PRR served, but only
> the PRR itself, I deleted it.
> 
> That'll teach me from spending too much time in the future working on posts
> for the list.

Does this mean you are taking your ball and going home?

I am hoping that your reaction was merely in the "heat" of the moment. We
want folks to prepare well researched posts. Don't let one bad experience
turn you off.

Please folks, talking about the steel industry and the PRR is pertinent.
However, the thread clearly shifted to NAFTA, Ronald Reagan, etc., things
that occurred 20+ years after the PRR was gone! That is not pertinent!
--------------------------------------
Listmaster
Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
http://www.dsop.com
listmaster@dsop.com


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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:30:29 EST
Subject: Re: LISTMASTER: Re: [PRR] Steel Industry

Jerry & folks,
Glad to see this discussion refocused. In fact, I've been wondering about the existing steel mills in Ohio/PA that are still functioning. Not everything is gone, and I understand the Mingo Jct operations of Pittsburgh-Wheeling Steel have always been active. Just what is still going on in these areas for steel production? And what's locaated on the former Pennsy?
Barry Peltier

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:48:15 EST
Subject: [PRR] Westerfield X23

I note in RailLine News, in addition to good photos of Westerfield's new 
Youngstown cement containers, a news item that one of his next projects is 
the X23/R7.  One of the items on my wish list being fulfilled! 
Now if Bowser would do a K7 or K8 stockcar (I need a fleet of these, so resin 
wouldn't be an answer).

Bob Zoeller

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:20:09 EST
Subject: Re: LISTMASTER: Re: [PRR] Steel Industry

In a message dated 03/07/2000 10:33:39 Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com 
writes:

> Glad to see this discussion refocused. In fact, I've been wondering about 
the 
> existing steel mills in Ohio/PA that are still functioning. Not everything 
is 
> gone, and I understand the Mingo Jct operations of Pittsburgh-Wheeling 
Steel 
> have always been active. Just what is still going on in these areas for 
steel 
> production? And what's locaated on the former Pennsy?
>  
All:

The Edgar Thompson works in Braddock and the Clairton Coke works are 
certainly still very much alive.  Also, Allegheny Ludlum's Brackenridge 
specialty steel complex is thriving.  Those are about all that is left in the 
Pittsburgh area.  NS serves all three.  CSX serves the coke plant.

Rich Orr

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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: The loss of the US Steel Industry
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 100 13:43:07 -0500 (EST)

GenJim833@aol.com scribit:
> 
> Besides that, we can also thank Ronald Reagan, in his eight years of looting 
> and plundering this country for finishing off the destruction of our steel 
> and other strategic industries, which is why I am not sorry to see him losing 
> what passes for a mind. More than any other President, Reagan destroyed not 
> only t he steel industry, but much of our other heavy industries, no wonder 
> the welfare rolls ended up shooting up after the Reagan years. People could 
> not and cannot support their families on the low wage jobs that replaced 
> steel making and other such vital industries. May Reagan r ot and burn in 
> hell for this.


However, someone on the other side of the fence would say that steel got
too expensive because of labor, i.e., the unions doing their job a little
bit too well. And someone on the third side of the fence(*) would say that
it's because of free trade and sweatshop-style labor overseas.

The bottom line is, it's never one thing. The issue is multifactorial.
To put all the blame on one factor, or in one person's lap, is to
oversimplify the situation.

-- 
Mark D. Bej
bejm@eeg.ccf.org 

(*)This is sort of like the Car Talk guys, who now have 3 halves to their
program.


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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 100 13:37:40 -0500 (EST)

PRRMAN@aol.com scribit:
> 
> In a message dated 00-03-05 13:13:25 EST, rickstug@mindspring.com writes:
> 
> << I feel if the PRR had done this, and, with all railroads, found earlier 
> relief from excessive government regulation & intervention  >>
> 
> That, in my opinion, is the key to this whole "what-if" discussion.
> Suppose the deregulation had happened in 1965?  History would
> certainly have been different.  But, what happened, happened!


Gents:

the deregulation would not have happened without a Penn Central.

Note I did not say without _the_ Penn Central, but without _a_ Penn
Central.

A New Haven, or an Erie, or any number of smaller roads going
bankrupt would not have caused a large enough ripple IMHO.

-- 
Mark D. Bej
bejm@eeg.ccf.org 

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From: "pgrace" <pgrace@aspects.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re MDF
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:45:15 -0000

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While I have not used it my self several layouts at my local club have =
and they have been not only VERY heavy to move around, they are also =
somewhat susceptible to damp, in a way ply does not seem to be...
Being in the UK we have to move our layouts as a major part of the hobby =
involves taking layouts to exhibitions. We now have standardised either =
on 9mm ply on a wood frame or entirely from 4mm ply using a girder =
method.

Patrick Grace



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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>While I have not used it my self =
several layouts at=20
my local club have and they have been not only VERY heavy to move =
around, they=20
are also somewhat susceptible to damp, in a way ply does not seem to=20
be...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Being in the UK we have to move our =
layouts as a=20
major part of the hobby involves taking layouts to exhibitions. We now =
have=20
standardised either on 9mm ply on a wood frame or entirely from 4mm ply =
using a=20
girder method.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Patrick Grace</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR/NYC
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:36:41 -0500

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O.K. List...I'll need somebody with a good memory of the PRR back about =
1957-1959. Wasn't there a recession in that period...about 1959...where =
there was a slowdown in PRR traffic. I think that was about the time the =
Interstate System came into play...and the trucking industry was getting =
major transportation give me's from Uncle Sam. Also, the interstate =
system would have had a dramatic influence on the PRR passenger =
operations as well. We have a well developed idea that loss of steel was =
a major player in the demise of the PRR...but the real death would have =
been the trucking industry and people using the interstates. I'm not =
trying to say that the loss of Pittsburgh steel would have been a =
catastrophy...it was. Seems like the PRR knew the future around the time =
of James Symes? I believe he (Symes) had stated to the Pennsy board of =
directors as early as 1955! that there was trouble ahead. What do you =
all think? And, also, was David Bevan a railroad man or a pencil pusher =
bureaucrat, following Mr. Saunders around...How important was Bevan to =
pushing the merger? Regards all, Bob

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>O.K. List...I'll need somebody with a good memory of =
the PRR=20
back about 1957-1959. Wasn't there a recession in that period...about=20
1959...where there was a slowdown in PRR traffic. I think that was about =
the=20
time the Interstate System came into play...and the trucking industry =
was=20
getting major transportation give me's from Uncle Sam. Also, the =
interstate=20
system would have had a dramatic influence on the PRR passenger =
operations as=20
well. We have a well developed idea that loss of steel was a major =
player in the=20
demise of the PRR...but the real death&nbsp;would have been the trucking =

industry and people using the interstates. I'm not trying to say that =
the loss=20
of Pittsburgh steel would have been a catastrophy...it was. Seems like =
the PRR=20
knew the future around the time of James Symes? I believe he (Symes) had =
stated=20
to the Pennsy board of directors as early as 1955! that there was =
trouble ahead.=20
What do you all think? And, also, was David Bevan a railroad man or a =
pencil=20
pusher bureaucrat, following Mr. Saunders around...How important was =
Bevan to=20
pushing the merger? Regards all, Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Bowser K-9's
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:39:13 -0500

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Jerry...that's a good question? When is Bowser going to set a date on =
release of the K-8 and K-9? Or are we jumping the gun on this...all of =
us need these! Regards, Bob

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<HTML><HEAD>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jerry...that's a good question? When is Bowser going =
to set a=20
date on release of the K-8 and K-9? Or are we jumping the gun on =
this...all of=20
us need these! Regards, Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BF884B.4A0612E0--


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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 14:39:29 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Post Merger Question?



Mark Bej wrote:

> the deregulation would not have happened without a Penn Central.
>
> Note I did not say without _the_ Penn Central, but without _a_ Penn
> Central.
>
> A New Haven, or an Erie, or any number of smaller roads going
> bankrupt would not have caused a large enough ripple IMHO.

Precisely correct.  As it was, it took several years, and several pieces of
legislation to get the industry fully deregulated.

As a corollary we could probably also say that, had there been real deregulation
in the fifties and sixties, there would not have been a Penn Central.

Richard Wallis


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From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:48:33 EST
Subject: [PRR] Steel industry

I have to enter this steel industry discussion because I have spent the 
better part of my career in the industry and have had to change jobs more 
than once because of it.  The biggest factors in the decline of the steel 
industry were the complete rebuilding of the Japanese steel industry after 
world war II giving them a cost advantage for a number of years currently not 
enjoyed and the advent of the minimill.  Nobody wants to live near a steel 
mill or other large industry now that everyone has access to an automobile 
for transportation.  A greenfield site steel mill would be imposible to build 
today.  Nobody would allow it, the environmental study would take at least a 
decade followed by permits and the need isn't presentas well as the 
satronoimical cost for an integrated mill - on the order of 5-7 billion 
dollars.  The advent of minimills was due to the vast amount of scrap that is 
available.  The US is an exporter of scrap because we make so much.  the need 
for making iron and steel from ore just doesn't exisit the way it used to.  
Cars are smaller and over 90% of it is recyceled.  The next step will be the 
advent of minimills that can roll surface quality strip for exposed 
automotive and appliance applications. Nucor is the leader and steel industry 
companies are monitoring their progress in that field very closely.  The 
industry anticipates that in the future a steel company and a stamping 
operation will build side by side and ship steel and scrap over the fence.  
When one reachs its life cycle the other will be shuttered also.  Hence no 
shipping of any kind and captive market. Time will tell.  The steel mills of 
Pgh. were built primarily to supply the PRR with rails from what I have seen 
in the history books and branched out as that need dried up.

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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 14:48:15 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR/NYC

Dear list:

Bob Holden wrote:
We have a well developed idea that loss of steel was a major player in
the demise of the PRR...but the real
death would have been the trucking industry and people using the
interstates.

I don't think so.  When you go back and look at the sheer volume of
coal, iron ore and steel products--bulk traffic--that the PRR carried,
not just in the 1950s, but as far back as the 1880s, it become clear
just how much the railroad was dependent on those classes of freight.
The PRR Annual Reports give percentages of traffic by class.  It is
staggering.  Something like 60-70 percent of the PRR's freight revenue
came from steel making raw material and finished steel product freight.

Richard Wallis


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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 15:25:55 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Farmdale Jct.



jpbtrans wrote:

> Good afternoon List
>  In an earlier posts answering my questions about the Peoria branch, it
> was mentioned that the PRR went onto NKP tracks at Farmdale Jct.
> Can anyone tell me anything about the Jct? Was the NKP single track?
> Were there any sidings on either line at the Jct? Type of tower?

Jon & Listfellows:

Apologies for the delay in posting this.

First, remember that prior to Feb. 16, 1931, the PRR (and predecessor TH&P,
et al) entered Peoria over the tracks of the TP&W.  It was only because a
(state?) dam control project on Farm Creek rerouted the TP&W at a higher
elevation further west that the PRR was forced to utilize the ex-LE&W line
of the NKP.

Until the change there was a tower--called Farmdale (FD)-- that controlled
the interlocked connection with the TP&W and the crossing of the TP&W and
the NKP.  There is a picture of this in Paul Stringham's book "Toledo,
Peoria & Western: Tried, Proven & Willing."

After the TP&W crossing (and PRR connection) was eliminated, a new NKP
interlocking (called Farmdale Jct.) took its place a half-mile east of the
old "FD," remote controlled from Farmdale Tower.  By 1952 (I have ETTs 1946
& 1952), FD was retired in favor of remote control from East Peoria and
Farmdale Tower was removed.

>From my memory of the picture in Stringham's book, it was a typical frame
structure, and most likely a mechanical interlocking (before the addition of
the remote control board).  By-the-way: you can still follow the old TH&P
ROW right to the Farmdale Jct. location.

I hope that helps.

Richard Wallis

> All
> info would be welcome.
> Thank you for the help!!
> Jon Anderson
> jpbtrans@gateway.net
>
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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 15:32:31 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Detailed maps (NJ)



DDembinski wrote:

> For those who are so inclined, another site to visit for maps is http://www.topozone.com.

I just want to thank Dale for putting me onto Topozone.  It is infinitely superior to the
other map-making sites.  I am most grateful.  Now if we could just find someone to put old
USGS quads online.

Richard Wallis



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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 15:50:42 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] More Farmdale Jct.

Sorry, I forgot to add that there was one siding on the PRR at Farmdale
in 1930--it held nine cars.  There were no sidings at Farmdale Jct.on
the PRR.

The nearest siding was at Morton, 25 car capacity.  There were plenty of
short sidings on the line above Maroa, generally 20-30 cars.  Only two,
at Mt. Joy and Waynesville were longer--approximately 70 cars, and these
probably had been used in steam days to double trains over the grades
between them.  The short-short sidings are a clue as to the dearth of
traffic on the line.

Richard Wallis


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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 16:55:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser K-9's
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/7/00 3:39 PM, rholden at (rholden@superpa.net) wrote:

> Jerry...that's a good question? When is Bowser going to set a date on release
> of the K-8 and K-9? Or are we jumping the gun on this...all of us need these!
> Regards, Bob
> 
A year or more ago, some of the subscribers of this list took offense to the
fact that I posted product announcements on this list as they were viewed as
ads for my company, Merchandise Service (which pays for the costs of the
lists). To attempt to satisfy their feelings, and my own goals, I
voluntarily put information about my business in my signature and rarely
ever place product announcements directly on the list.

I also then created the "Merchandise Announce" list which is an
announcement-only list with 1-2 posts per week through which I propogate
product announcements such as the one you are asking about. I made the
Bowser announcements about 6-8 weeks ago!

To join this list, visit our web site and follow the directions...

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

That web site also lists all newly received products, all advance
reservation products, and many future product "rumors".

Now, on to your question:

Bowser has never indicated that they are working on a K-8. However, look for
one from Bethlehem Car Works very late this year.

Bowser did announce that they will ship the K-9 50' stock car in April and
the K-11 40' stock car in May. We are taking Advance Reservations on both,
in a variety of paint schemes.

Along the same lines, Bethlehem Car Works is planning three new versions of
the B-60 baggage car, hopefully in time for the PRRT&HS meeting in May. They
are also "considering" an R-50b, as is Sunshine. If you need R050's, please
contact BCW and hype them. With enough demand, it'll get made!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: Peter Reinhold <preinhol@unidie.com>
Subject:  [PRR] Bowser K-9's
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:56:45 -0600

Release date is in May I think (don't have my dealer sheet handy). I will look it up tonight.

Pete Reinhold
PRRT&HS
preinhol@unidie.com

-----Original Message-----
From:	rholden [SMTP:rholden@superpa.net]
Sent:	Tuesday, 07 March, 2000 2:39 PM
To:	prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject:	[PRR] Bowser K-9's

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Jerry...that's a good question? When is Bowser going to set a date on =
release of the K-8 and K-9? Or are we jumping the gun on this...all of =
us need these! Regards, Bob

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jerry...that's a good question? When is Bowser going =
to set a=20
date on release of the K-8 and K-9? Or are we jumping the gun on =
this...all of=20
us need these! Regards, Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BF884B.4A0612E0--


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From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil
Subject: RE: [PRR] Steel industry
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:01:30 -0800 

Hi all,  I don't know about you, but I find this discussion very
interesting.  Given PRR/Steel Industry interdepence, what was good for one
was good for the other.  The Pittsburgh mills are an interesting case in
point, and one for which I've gotten numerous different viewpoints over the
years.  Could you listers tell me if the following info is correct?
   I understand from talking to a number of former USSteel employees that
most of the mills in Pgh (area) WERE integrated, i.e., that they did
everything at one site.  They brought their own ore in via B&LE and URR, and
only took additional via PRR when necessary, as PRR was more expensive on
average when compared to their own operations.  The increasing use of PRR
for ore shipments in the late 50's (and hence, development of the G38/G39
jennies and over the "hill" ore shipments from Philly) was primarily due to
U.S. sources becoming exhausted and foreign ore (Venezuela for one) becoming
more viable.  They brought coal in via barge from upriver USS-owned mines
and processed it at their own coke plants (Clairton being the largest),
again because coal hauled via PRR was more expensive to them.  Limestone and
other additives were brought in from the cheapest source, which at times was
the PRR.  At any one of the integrated mills, the facility would produce hot
metal (iron) at a blast furnace complex, transfer it by bottle to an open
hearth at the same site (or if needed, take it to one of the other USS
facilities).  The open hearths were partially charged by scrap, which was
largely brought in by outside RRs from a variety of sources.  The hot slab
was then sent to the on-site primary and secondary mills which produced
finished product for outside use (or also taken to other USS facilities via
slab cars, i.e., Duquesne to Irvin).  
   The thing I never understood was how the various integrated mills
functioned with each other.  I only recently began to think about USSteel
operations in Pgh in terms of the whole picture.  The fact that the PRR
served ALL of them indicates that the products were not necessarily the
same.  When I correlated the info I got from former employees at each site,
the differences between the operations popped up.  Duquesne had blast
furnaces, open hearths, and has "Merchants Mills" producing things like
REBar from billet.  They did not produce other steel products.  McKeesport
(National Tube) produced tubular products for primarily Oil Country use, and
also had blast furnaces, open hearths and tube works on-site.  They did not
make other products that these folks were aware of.  Clairton Works (not the
by-products div) also had blast furnaces ('til '63), open hearths and
produced structural steel, like I-Beams, Elevator Bar ("Ls"), "Tee's",
Channel, RR Rail, and even railroad wheel blanks, from blooms and other
large steel shapes.  Irvin took hot steel slab from Duquesne and other, and
produced finished strip steel (coils) for use in the adjacent GM Fisher Body
plant, as well as where else it might be needed.  Thus, these four
facilities produced all four of the primary steel products without
duplication!  Is that cool, or what?  The duplication came in when you added
Homestead and other USS plants, which may have IN SUM produced, or had
capacity, for far more steel than would be purchased.  This may be why
individual, out-of-date operations, like the blast furnaces at Clairton ONLY
(which were very old, and perhaps in need of new refractory at $$$$ cost),
were phased out in the 1960's in favor of bringing in ingots from another,
more efficient (newer? more recently lined?), facility nearby.
   If any of this doesn't make sense, I would love to keep this thread
going, as this is a subject that USS (and others) don't seem to have
discussed much publicly.  The day-to-day interaction between the Pennsy and
the steel industry is not well documented, either.  Perhaps if we can locate
a former USS employee who worked in the shipping department (I found one
that answered some questions), we can determine how much was generated, what
proportions of different products were generated, how it was shipped, how it
might have appeared on PRR rails, etc.  Thanks all in advance for your
input!
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: NDBPRR@aol.com [mailto:NDBPRR@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 12:49 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Steel industry


I have to enter this steel industry discussion because I have spent the 
better part of my career in the industry and have had to change jobs more 
than once because of it.  The biggest factors in the decline of the steel 
industry were the complete rebuilding of the Japanese steel industry after 
world war II giving them a cost advantage for a number of years currently
not 
enjoyed and the advent of the minimill.  Nobody wants to live near a steel 
mill or other large industry now that everyone has access to an automobile 
for transportation.  A greenfield site steel mill would be imposible to
build 
today.  Nobody would allow it, the environmental study would take at least a

decade followed by permits and the need isn't presentas well as the 
satronoimical cost for an integrated mill - on the order of 5-7 billion 
dollars.  The advent of minimills was due to the vast amount of scrap that
is 
available.  The US is an exporter of scrap because we make so much.  the
need 
for making iron and steel from ore just doesn't exisit the way it used to.  
Cars are smaller and over 90% of it is recyceled.  The next step will be the

advent of minimills that can roll surface quality strip for exposed 
automotive and appliance applications. Nucor is the leader and steel
industry 
companies are monitoring their progress in that field very closely.  The 
industry anticipates that in the future a steel company and a stamping 
operation will build side by side and ship steel and scrap over the fence.  
When one reachs its life cycle the other will be shuttered also.  Hence no 
shipping of any kind and captive market. Time will tell.  The steel mills of

Pgh. were built primarily to supply the PRR with rails from what I have seen

in the history books and branched out as that need dried up.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 20:12:15 -0500
From: 442 <442@mail.pa.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Stop thread on Steel Industry

Why?  I found some of it interesting.

thanks


At 07:55 3/7/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Please stop the thread on the steel industry...while interesting to many, it
>is not directly related to this list. I have received complaints. Thank you.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS
>
>"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
>Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
>products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
>the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
>Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
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>our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
>------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
>
>
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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 20:52:01 -0500
Subject: [PRR] ROY Interlocking Follow Up
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

A few days ago I asked if anyone had a track chart of ROY Interlocking, at
Royalton, Pa., just a few miles east of Harrisburg. Triumph II has a
map/diagram from early years showing the Columbia Branch with two tracks
there. The interlocking diagram from Mark Bej's site is a later version,
showing only one track. I was attempting to substantiate two tracks for my
modeling era of 1954.

Steve Bundick came through for me, with a diagram dated 1945 and revised to
1957...with two tracks on the Columbia Branch. I've added it to my maps
page, under the Philadelphia Division:

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/

Couple of questions:

1. The twin passenger mains (main line) and the twin freight mains (Columbia
Branch) typically were signaled one way per track (keep to the right).
However, both approaches from the east appear to show mast signals (not
bridges) for both tracks, indicating that a westbound could be on any of the
four tracks. Any comments?

2. Also these approaches from the east, it looks like the signal for the two
tracks going against normal traffic is a mast signal between the two tracks,
rather than on an overhead signal bridge. Am I reading this correctly?

3. There is a turnout (#13) just east of the split, on the Columbia Branch.
It is a dead end spur on every diagram I have seem. Yet it appears to have a
mast signal protecting the interlocking. What might this spur have been used
for to warrant such attention?

4. Note that an eastbound on the EB freight track can switch to the WB
freight track but cannot switch any further (like to the main lines to
continue east). Why would one want to do this? Or perhaps this was the end
of "local delivery territory" out of Harrisburg and this was a runaround for
locos for the trip back to Harrisburg?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
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Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 21:47:18 -0500
Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Tell Me If Any Dupes
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Every now and then we've had a duping problem. Though not DIRECTLY related,
it was somewhat related to my former low bandwidth.

I just changed a setting to the way mail is sent. If anyone starts getting
dupes, alert me immediately! I will change the setting back!

If this works at the higher bandwidth, there are new services that I can
provide.

DETAILED EXPLANATION FOR GEEKS LIKE ME:

All inbound list mail is received by my mail server.

The listserv POPs into the mail server every five minutes and retrieves
command messages and list posts and processes them accordingly.

All outbound list mail is then routed to the mail server.

The mail server then distributes the mail.

I just changed the setting to have the listserv distribute the mail
directly. This is what failed before. If it works now, it would enable me to
serve lists from multiple domains. Right now, I can only have lists attached
to the DSOP.COM domain.
--------------------------------------
Listmaster
Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
http://www.dsop.com
listmaster@dsop.com


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From: SNY114@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:49:10 EST
Subject: [PRR] N6b Cabin Cars: trucks and brake systems

Hi all.

This post is in response to a question about the N6b trucks and brakes 
modernizations. I neglected to note the name of the person who posted the 
question; sorry, but it's been a tough day. Anyway, here's some quotes from 
the Keystone.

Vol. 22 No. 3  Summer 1989

Article "N6b: From Kindling to Showpiece" by John W. Smith and Dan Cupper, 
about the restoration of N6b 980016, now at Harrisburg Train Station.
On page 10: "The original archbar truck fittings had been replaced with cast 
sideframes of type 2A-F5. This change is believed to have occurred about 
1938, as the number '38' is cast in raised digits into the sideframes. 
Sometime thereafter, beginning in November 1943, PRR re-equipped the brake 
systems on those cars that had been converted to cast 2A-F4 or 2A-F5 frames. 
The original KD brake system was updated to a Westinghouse AB system."


Vol. 5 No. 4   December 1972

In "The Test Plant", an article entitled "Quality Craft Models HO Scale PRR 
Center Cupola N6b Cabin Car - Part 2"   (a 2 part review article) by Robert 
L. Johnson

On page 14-15: "Beginning in November 1943 AB brake systems and special cast 
trucks were applied to N6b's. Both the brake system and the trucks were 
changed at the same time. The trucks resembled the AAR standard (so-called 
Bettendorf) style except for having nested springs which gave the appearance 
of being one large coil spring. Evidently when the trucks were changed, a 
change was also made in the bolsters. The bolsters with archbar trucks were 
recessed slightly under the sides, but the ends were still visible. When cast 
trucks were applied, the bolsters were cut back so that the ends could not be 
seen in side views of the car. All of the above changes occurred over a 
period of time so that at least as late as 1949 there were still N6b's around 
which had the original end platform railings, horizontal brake wheels, K 
brake system, and archbar trucks."


Hope this helps.

Jim Anderson
Thorndale, PA
sny114@aol.com
PRRT&HS 3995
Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925

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Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:50:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: [PRR] looking for a layout...

or more precisely an area of the Pennsy to model that has what I want:
-at least one steel mill
-at least one interlocking with a flyover or duckunder, or both, and
  hopefully with interesting signalling possibilities
-somewhere I could plausibly use a Model Railroad StoneWorks bridge: 
  in this case the 2 arch bridge from the Spruce Creek area
-a decent amount of "main" trackage so I can run some passenger service
-and of course some switching opportunities
-a town of some consequence (not necessarily a city)
-a reasonably sized set of facilities would be very nice to have
-something where i can get it a small amount of electrified trackage (not
the bulk of the layout) would also be nice but is a lower priority

I have a 28x13 foot room to play with; The 13 foot dimension is
constrained by ceilings which slope down towards it, making it more useful
to keep the layout along the outside. 

The 28 foot dimension is bisected on one side by the entrance to the room,
outside the 28x13 dimensions. The 13 foot dimension has windows placed in
the middle of those walls, meaning I'll need to hold the loop across the
end of the room in a few feet.

A second level is a possibility but probably not in the cards at the
start.

It's probably more appropriate to reply to me directly rather than to the
list. I look forward to any suggestions.

-D



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From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] B60 (was Bowser K-9's)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:59:54 -0600

Jerry wrote:
>Along the same lines, Bethlehem Car Works is planning
>three new versions of the B-60 baggage car

Why is Bethlehem car works planning any new versions of this car?  They sold
their molds to Eastern Car Works (Along with the M70).  Is it Eastern Car
Works or Bethlehem?

What versions could they be planning?  Clerestory roof?  I can't remember
the class, but wasn't there the 60' baggage with three panels between the
door and end, rather than the four of the B60?



Andy



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From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Tracings
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:51:56 -0600

About a year ago, I ordered and received tracing indices for several
passenger cars and freight cars.  I'm planning on ordering some underframe
arrangement drawings for the B-60 and M-70 cars to complete my kits.

Has anyone ordered any tracings recently?  What kind of turnaround time can
I expect on my order?

Thanks,


Andy


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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Steel Industry
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:05:09 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF8891.F7A53CA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello! everyone...I have found the steel industry and the PRR part in =
it...a real eye opener. As I mentioned in my original question about the =
factors that may have contributed to the loss of the PRR, I did not grow =
up in a region that was primarily known for steel. (Baltimore). Yes, we =
had Bethlehem Steel, Sparrows Point, but we were a port city, as well... =
The PRR had extensive passenger operations here, as well. It didn't take =
a rocket scientist to see a dramatic change in Baltimore with the Penn =
Central. I, absolutely understand the importance of steel  and other =
commodities on the PRR, but they were burdened, in  many respects, with =
large passenger losses on the average. My point is, that the =
Pennsylvania was such a vast system, even by todays standards; that many =
factors contributed to problems...depending what region you were talking =
about. Things were different in Pittsburgh, as opposed to the problems =
the PRR had in Philly, for example. But I have learned a lot the past =
couple of days. And I'm thankful for everyone on the list that has =
shared his perspective and opinions...each has been excellent. And in =
retrospect, the PRR has outlived, in terms of years (122 years, I =
believe) the railroads that replaced it. Quite a record, to this day. =
Let's see the BNSF survive as long...Thanks, guys...Bob

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF8891.F7A53CA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hello! everyone...I have found the steel industry =
and the PRR=20
part in it...a real eye opener. As I mentioned in my original question =
about the=20
factors that may have contributed to the loss of the PRR, I did not grow =
up in a=20
region that was primarily known for steel. (Baltimore). Yes, we had =
Bethlehem=20
Steel, Sparrows Point, but we were a port city, as well... The PRR had =
extensive=20
passenger operations here, as well. It didn't take a rocket scientist to =
see a=20
dramatic change in Baltimore with the Penn Central. I, absolutely =
understand the=20
importance of steel&nbsp; and other commodities on the PRR, but they =
were=20
burdened, in&nbsp; many respects, with large passenger losses on the =
average. My=20
point is, that the Pennsylvania was such a vast system, even by todays=20
standards; that many factors contributed to problems...depending what =
region you=20
were talking about. Things were different in Pittsburgh, as opposed to =
the=20
problems the PRR had in Philly, for example. But I have learned a lot =
the past=20
couple of days. And I'm thankful for everyone on the list that has =
shared his=20
perspective and opinions...each has been excellent. And in retrospect, =
the PRR=20
has outlived, in terms of years (122 years, I believe) the railroads =
that=20
replaced it. Quite a record, to this day. Let's see the BNSF survive as=20
long...Thanks, guys...Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF8891.F7A53CA0--


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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:15:01 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Engine numbering

In a message dated 3/6/2000 9:56:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes:

<< It would seem that at least in the modern era on the NYLB, PRR sent its 
own engines to work the line.  But the Cleveland and Pittsburgh tenders 
behind Class D, Altoona-built engines were lettered C&P, so would the numbers 
on those engines also be PRR numbers? >>

I hope I have my facts straight... my belief is that Lines West subsidiaries 
were operating with their own number series up to about 1910, at which time I 
have photo evidence that they had been renumbered into the PRR-consolidated, 
4-digit numbers.  Wouldn't the Cleveland & Pittsburgh tender markings have 
changed to Pennsylvania Lines in/around 1910, and then to Pennsylvania in 
1920?

It's interesting that, in the big scheme of things, engine numbers were 
locally determined until sometime close to 1910.  Then, in 1920, the 
consolidated roster was already accomplished, and ready for whatever would 
happen under the consolidated PRR management.  Certainly, one would think a 
"Central Region" would have no reservations about redeploying engines off the 
Panhandle Division and onto the Pittsburgh Division if operating conditions 
demanded. 

Funny to think that PRR's famed and oft-cursed "geographical" locomotive 
numbering scheme held strictly true for maybe 10 years.  Obviously, though, 
the bulk of steam engines never left home, even to the end of steam.

Rick Tipton

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 01:11:28 -0500
From: Dan Cupper <cupper@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Allegheny & South Side RR query

egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil wrote:

> OK, OK!  After a deafening silence due to my questions on the Allegheny &
> South Side RR (Not a single response),

Greetings to Elden and the list:

Let's try to change that.

A&SS was not corporately affiliated with the Pennsylvania. It does not show up
in the three most likely histories: Schotter, Kennedy, or Coverdale & Colpitts.

It does show up in Tom Taber's Railroads of Pennsylvania Encyclopedia and Atlas
(1987), p. 10. Here's a summary of the entry: Opened 1895 with five miles of
track on Pittsburgh's South Side (its charter envisioned 12 miles of track,
running to/from Allegheny, the old name for what is now Pittsburgh's North Side,
but it never made it there). Taber says "apparently not initially controlled by
a steel company. Later owned by Oliver Iron & Steel Co. to serve their mill.
Plant shut down in 1959 and railroad discontinued operations 8-1-59. Basically a
plant facility." The roster that Taber lists shows five steam engines, all
0-6-0s or 0-6-0Ts, a Whitcomb 65-ton diesel, and an EMD switcher, 600 hp, sold
to Pittsburgh & Ohio Valley (I remember at least one SW1 on the P&OV; perhaps
that was the former A&SS unit).

Hope this helps.

Dan




Dan Cupper
cupper@mciworld
Matthew 6:33






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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 06:21:38 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 (was Bowser K-9's)
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/7/00 10:59 PM, Andy Cich at (ajc5150@net66.com) wrote:

> Jerry wrote:
>> Along the same lines, Bethlehem Car Works is planning
>> three new versions of the B-60 baggage car
> 
> Why is Bethlehem car works planning any new versions of this car?  They sold
> their molds to Eastern Car Works (Along with the M70).  Is it Eastern Car
> Works or Bethlehem?

Correct, and I don't know what was driving this or what their original plans
were. However, my information comes direct from John Green at BCW. There are
three versions planned, with different door arrangements, mostly.
> 
> What versions could they be planning?  Clerestory roof?  I can't remember
> the class, but wasn't there the 60' baggage with three panels between the
> door and end, rather than the four of the B60?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 06:25:11 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] looking for a layout...
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/7/00 10:50 PM, Derrick J Brashear at (shadow@dementia.org) wrote:

> or more precisely an area of the Pennsy to model that has what I want:

south (railroad east) of Harrisburg...

> -at least one steel mill

Bethlehem mill at Steelton

> -at least one interlocking with a flyover or duckunder, or both, and

duckunder and interlocking at ROY.

> hopefully with interesting signalling possibilities

yes

> -somewhere I could plausibly use a Model Railroad StoneWorks bridge:
> in this case the 2 arch bridge from the Spruce Creek area

There is a low stone arch bridge over the Swatara Creek between the mill and
ROY.

> -a decent amount of "main" trackage so I can run some passenger service

main line, baby!

> -and of course some switching opportunities

did we mention the mill? There are also some grain silos. Depending on the
era, there was also iron ore mining and lumbering nearby.

> -a town of some consequence (not necessarily a city)

yes.

> -a reasonably sized set of facilities would be very nice to have

could stretch into Harrisburg as well.

> -something where i can get it a small amount of electrified trackage (not
> the bulk of the layout) would also be nice but is a lower priority
> 
this is the main line east of Harrisburg, so the mains would be electrified.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 07:12:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 (was Bowser K-9's)

Didn't the Pennsy streamline all their baggage cars with fairings that 
eliminated the clerestory roof's nonstreamlined appearance at the time the 
railroad went on its postwar  passenger equipment buying spree to replace  
the broken down prewar cars that were  virtually junk by the time WWII ended? 
It would seem like a logical thing to do given the fact the lightweight cars 
were all streamlined.   To me, it would make sense that the Pennsy would have 
modified and/or refurbished these cars to harmonize with the new equipment as 
it came on line. Smaller roads, such as the Erie and Lackawanna did precisely 
that when those roads got the new, lightweight, streamlined passenger 
equipment.

Jim Mancuso
56B South Main Street
Perry, NY 14530

Pennsy is the subject of a book I am working on and what I can learn about 
the passenger operations will prove to be most useful, especially about the 
equipment operated.

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 08:27:55 -0500
From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Steel industry

One thing to keep in mind is that all the works you mentioned pre-dated
USS.  They were founded by Carnagie and other industry pioneers  to make
a particular product--ie, the Edgar Thompson Works  of Carnagie Steel
made RR rail for the PRR (hence it's name) and later became part of the
USS mergers about 1900.  

The early mills were all horizontally integrated as you describe since
they were each separate concerns who did not want to be dependant on
another firm for anything.  Vertical integration, with raw material
suppliers, URR, ore boats and such came as a result of the USS and other
mergers.  JimMcDaniel

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Date: Wed,  8 Mar 2000 08:45:47 -0500
From: "cwhary" <cwhary@paonline.com>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Kits

Gentlemen,

I have two new Boswers kits with super detail kits included.  One M-1 and one L-1.  I would like to offer these to the list prior to an E-bay listing.  Anyone interested please contact me.  

--
Charles E. Whary
--

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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Tracings
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:30:18 -0500

Andy:

Are you going to order B60 or B60b plans?

Lew


-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Cich <ajc5150@net66.com>
To: Prr-talk <Prr-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 11:53 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Tracings


>About a year ago, I ordered and received tracing indices for several
>passenger cars and freight cars.  I'm planning on ordering some underframe
>arrangement drawings for the B-60 and M-70 cars to complete my kits.
>
>Has anyone ordered any tracings recently?  What kind of turnaround time can
>I expect on my order?
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Andy
>
>
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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR Engine numbering
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:22:39 -0000

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Engine numbering
From: <RickTipton@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:15:01 EST

Rick, et.al.

Based on my research for the E&P Book, it appears that initially the PRR
proper had its own locomotive numbering system and as new companies were
acquired (not leased) generally their locomotive numbers were changed to be
compatible with the rest of the PRR's system numbering scheme. However, with
the leased companies it was a different story. They came to the PRR system
with their own locomotive numbering systems and by-in-large kept those
separate systems until later. For an example the E&P RR came on line with
its first locomotive in 1861. By the time they were leased by the PRR in
1870, they had acquired 26 locomotives, numbered 1-26. As a side note almost
immediately the E&P was transferred from the PRR and became part of the
P.Co. In 1890, Lines West-Northwest System (P.Co.) adopted a uniform
numbering system for all of the leased lines locomotives with the E&P being
in the 400 series. Again in 1902 the Northwest system power was renumbered
and the E&P power was now in the 7540-7599 (inclusive) series. Finally in
1907 there was another renumbering with the E&P owned equipment now in the
9200-9264 (inclusive) series. When the Lines West organization was
eliminated locomotive numbers were assigned to new equipment by class and
the practice of assigning numbers by owning company ended.

There is more information about locomotive numbering in Staufer's 'Pennsy
Power III', Hirsimaki's 'Black Gold-Black Diamonds', and of course Edson's
very good 'Steam Locomotives of the PRR - An all time Roster.'

Al


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:28:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 (was Bowser K-9's)

In a message dated 3/8/2000 5:25:16 AM Central Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< Correct, and I don't know what was driving this or what their original 
plans
 were. However, my information comes direct from John Green at BCW. There are
 three versions planned, with different door arrangements, mostly. >>

Although they sold their molds to ECW, my understanding is that BCW would 
continue to produce cars with etched brass sides.

Bob Zoeller

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From: Paul Stumpff <urr304@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Steel industry
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:06:27 -0500

Most of Carnegie's, later USS, vertical integration of not only production but services too, was in fact due to Carnegie's relations with PRR after 1880. The acquisition of the transportation links [lakers, barges, and railroads] was the result of Carnegie wanting to get around using PRR as noted. These all were done before Carnegie sold out in formation of USS.

Other producers did own mines too, but never had the power to do what Carnegie was able to do about his transportation costs. PRR was a big customer, but Carnegie was not going to be at their knees either. 

Remember this is the guy who got left holding the bag [in a fashion] after the South Pennsylvania Central/West Shore deal that Morgan hammered out. One of the reasons that Carnegie did not like Morgan even though he finally sold out to Morgan in 1901.  

-----Original Message-----
From:	James L. McDaniel [SMTP:jlmcdaniel@esva.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, March 08, 2000 8:28 AM
To:	egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil
Cc:	PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:	Re: [PRR] Steel industry

One thing to keep in mind is that all the works you mentioned pre-dated
USS.   []  .... 

The early mills were all horizontally integrated as you describe since
they were each separate concerns who did not want to be dependant on
another firm for anything.  Vertical integration, with raw material
suppliers, URR, ore boats and such came as a result of the USS and other
mergers.  JimMcDaniel



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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:30:24 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Steel Industry

In a message dated 03/08/2000 00:07:41 Eastern Standard Time, 
rholden@superpa.net writes:

> And in retrospect, the PRR has outlived, in terms of years (122 years, I 
> believe) the railroads that replaced it. Quite a record, to this day. Let's 
> see the BNSF survive as long...Thanks, guys...Bob
The only one close is the Union Pacific actually exceeds at 133 or 134 years. 
 And the only road to open and close the 20th century with the same name.

Rich Orr

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:34:12 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 (was Bowser K-9's)

In a message dated 3/8/2000 6:19:24 AM Central Standard Time, 
GenJim833@aol.com writes:

<< Didn't the Pennsy streamline all their baggage cars with fairings that 
 eliminated the clerestory roof's nonstreamlined appearance at the time the 
 railroad went on its postwar  passenger equipment buying spree to replace  
 the broken down prewar cars that were  virtually junk by the time WWII 
ended?  >>

I'm not sure what you are referring to.  Pennsy had no streamlined or even 
semi-streamlined baggage cars to my knowledge.  They did "streamstyle" some 
combines.

Bob Zoeller

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From: "Carl Izzo" <CPIZZO@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Colors
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:35:15 -0500

Hi Rich:

I am trying to pin down reason for the change to a darker PRR freight car
color that occurred in 1952.   Did they finally start using ready-mixed
paints?  Did they finally discover synthetic iron oxides?  Did they start
using alkyd resin based paints?

It is my understanding that the PRR was a very conservative (read: slow to
keep up with technology) company.  According to my archives of old paint
books, synthetic iron oxide pigments were produced prior to W.W.II as were
ready-mixed paints.  The use of synthetic iron oxide pigments in ready-mixed
paints provided an excellent means of color control from paint shop to paint
shop.

Since ready-mixed paints using synthetic iron oxide pigments could be shaded
to any color under the sun, there was no reason to go to darker.  There had
to be another reason.  Weather resistance is more dependant on the type of
vehicle used than on the pigment. They may have started using paints based
on alkyd resin technology rather than linseed oil in 1952.  Alkyds which are
more weather resistant than linseed oil based paints,  were used extensively
immediately after W.W.II.  I would like to know.

If you have any reference or other information that could shed some light on
this change, I would appreciate your sharing it with me.

Carl P. Izzo
Industrial Paint Consultant
PRRT&HS #832


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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 (was Bowser K-9's)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:06:34 -0500

Are you talking about a B60 or a B60b?

Lew Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com <Bobspf@aol.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 (was Bowser K-9's)


>In a message dated 3/8/2000 5:25:16 AM Central Standard Time,
>jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:
>
><< Correct, and I don't know what was driving this or what their original
>plans
> were. However, my information comes direct from John Green at BCW. There
are
> three versions planned, with different door arrangements, mostly. >>
>
>Although they sold their molds to ECW, my understanding is that BCW would
>continue to produce cars with etched brass sides.
>
>Bob Zoeller
>
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:23:00 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Colors

Hi Carl,

>From what my grandfather told me and what I have been able to find in print, 
the PRR went to synthetic iron oxide pigments in 1952.  This was done to 
standardize the color of the cars and because synthetic paints finally became 
less expensive than natural pigments.  The result was the change from the 
orangish iron sesquioxide color to the brownish color.  I am not sure about 
the use of alkyd based resin paints.  I have often thought I might write 
DuPont and ask about the formulation numbers on the back of the drift cards 
which the Society reproduced a few years ago.  But as with many projects, it 
seems to keep getting put on the back burner.  There is a definite darkening 
of the paint between 1952 and 1968.  This raise another question: was the 
darkening an official change in pigment or simply the result of formula 
changes by suppliers.

Rich Orr

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR/Penn Central
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:06:07 -0500

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Hi, everyone...Just a quick note to say that my remarks about BNSF were =
in know way a disparaging remark about them. Quite a few western roads =
make up this road, and off course, the PRR was primarily a eastern road, =
which reached into the mid-west. And thanks about the Union Pacific! =
Regards all, Bob

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi, everyone...Just a quick note to say that my =
remarks about=20
BNSF were in know way a disparaging remark about them. Quite a few =
western roads=20
make up this road, and off course, the PRR was primarily a eastern road, =
which=20
reached into the mid-west. And thanks about the Union Pacific! Regards =
all,=20
Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Tracings
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:07:52 -0600

I was in a hurry typing my message last night and got sloppy; I should have
said B60b and M70b.

The car BCW/ECW currently produces is a B60b, as identified by the side
panel arrangement, 3 between the doors, and four between the door and end.

Maybe the new car BCW has announced is a B60, with 2 panels between doors,
and 3 between the door and end.  As far as different versions are concerned,
it would be real nice if they offered both windows or plated over windows.

And I will be ordering drawings for the B60b and M70b, since these are the
kits I have.

Andy



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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:06:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Penn Central

Unlike the Penn Central merger, the true motive behind the proposed BNSF/CN 
combination is greed at the expense of the workers and the shippers who have 
had to suffer with shitty service as exemplified the Penn Central's first 
year of operation and more recently NS and CSX digesting, or is it 
INdigesting, Conrail's line haul operations. This greed factor is a good 
reason why the workers should be taking up arms against the executive suites 
of both railroads, for it is they, not the executives at the top who are 
going to get screwed while the shippers get handed yet another snow job about 
how wonderful the service is going to be with the merger. Come on now, what 
are these executives smoking any way, Wacky Tobacky?

J. Mancuso

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 16:24:26 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Steel Industry

--On Wed, Mar 8, 2000 11:30 AM +0000 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: 

 in response to:

>> And in retrospect, the PRR has outlived ... 
>> the railroads that replaced it. 

> The only one close is the Union Pacific actually exceeds at 133 or 134
years. 
>  And the only road to open and close the 20th century with the same name.


Ah, yes, but didn't the UP go into receivership?

Vagel

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:52:09 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Steel Industry/UP

Folks,
Vagel K. quotes an earlier posting that says, in part:
----
 The only one close is the Union Pacific actually exceeds at 133 or 134
years. 
>  And the only road to open and close the 20th century with the same name.
----------------------
Didn't the B&O go well over 150 years? And so did the D&H, though partially 
as a canal company. As for entering and leaving the 20th century under one 
moniker, how about KCS, BAR and the FEC? I'm kinda asking, cause I don't 
really keep up on modern railroading, but aren't these lines still around? 
How about EJ&E, TRRA, and the IC (though not continuous under that nane). CP 
may be unfair as it's Canadian, but has had trackage in America under that 
nane for over a hundred years. Must be others that escape me at the moment. 
Any ideas?
Barry Peltier
ps-C&NW also went over 150 years, it seems.bp

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:11:56 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Steel Industry/UP

--On Wed, Mar 8, 2000 4:52 PM +0000 BPX29@aol.com wrote: 

> Didn't the B&O go well over 150 years? 

The B&O went thru two receiverships, although for less scandalous reasons
than UP.  

Vagel Keller



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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:15:31 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Steel Industry/UP, correction

I mis-spoke in stating B&O went thru 2 receiverships;  I was thinking of the
CONTROL of B&O by PRR.  I guess the only receivership would have been the
post-WW 2 one in which the B&O couldn't make the interest payments on the
RFA loan.  Still, that's one more than the PRR experienced.

Vagel

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:32:12 -0500
From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR Engine numbering

I looked up the engine numbers for the NYP&NRR in "Rails along the
Chesapeake." This may shed some light on how the engine numbering worked
but it's right complicated--no suprise there.

The NYP&NRR was built by AJ Cassatt in the 1880's and bought many of
it's locomotives new and used from PRR.  The  NYP&NRR stock was bought
by PRR after AJ became PRR president and the NYP&NRR was leased to the
PRR in 1920--but remained a separate corporate entity til 1958. Once the
lease went through,  loco's were renumbered into the PRR system in
August of 1918 by adding 6500 to the NYP&N numbers; ie, NYP&N 1 became
PRR 6501, and NYP&N 13 became PRR 6513, etc.  Tenders did not get
"PENNSYLVANIA" painted over "NYP&NRR" til March of 1920!

To further complicate things, many of these were second hand PRR engines
like #13/#6513.  It was originally PRR 1649 E6s built Juniata as 
construction number 2808.  My understanding is that it's still around
somewhere--there are photos in Don Ball's PRR in the 40's book (not sure
the exact title).  

Hope this helps a little, JimMcDaniel, lost down here in Delmarva

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] BNSF/CN
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:48:09 -0500

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I saw a published report indicating that if BNSF could not 'acquire' =
CN...they would target the Norfolk/Southern. Later, Bob

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<DIV>I saw a published report indicating that if BNSF could not =
'acquire'=20
CN...they would target the Norfolk/Southern. Later, =
Bob</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Double Postings!
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:52:38 -0500

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Jerry....Any body else getting double postings on our list? Thanks, Bob =
Holden.

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jerry....Any body else getting double postings on =
our list?=20
Thanks, Bob Holden.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:49:11 -0500
From: Casimer P Zakrzewski <zak@acadia.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Steel Industry/UP

Hello, all.
As I'm living in Maine now, and just happen to have
"Bangor and Aroostook - The Maine Railroad" by J.
Angier and H. Cleaves on my lap as I type this, so I
can answer one point.
The BAR, known as the B&A in Maine, was organized under
Maine laws on 13 February 1891, and still exists
today...with that name.
It should be noted, however, that the B&A has - like
others - gone under ownership of Iron Road Railways. 
Sets of decals showing the change are even available.
However the B&A, or BAR, still exists.
Now, I know this is *totally* off the the 'steel
thread', but recently the B&A has been wooing back an
industry of Maine that it served exclusively in the
past.  Potatoes!  It seems the truckers don't want to
go North empty just to truck 'taters South, so the B&A
is trying to get back the job it lost during 1976-1977
to those truckers!
(And yes, I'm still a whole-hearted PRR fan; please
reserve your flames for the yoyos that send you ads for
insurance.)
Zak

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] B & O, Union Pacific
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:01:19 -0500

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Hi! everyone...As far as I understand...the Pennsylvania Railroad was =
never in recievership, and payed dividends continuously until Penn =
Central. I guess we can say that the PRR was able to stay out of =
recievership because of the conservative leadership it offered, promoted =
from within and was run by railroad people. Unlike many roads today. =
Just my opinion, everyone. And it might be safe to say, by some, that =
they remained ultra-conservative for too long! But there is an old =
saying, we've all heard...hindsight is always 20/20. Bob Holden=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi! everyone...As far as I understand...the Pennsylvania Railroad =
was never=20
in recievership, and payed dividends continuously until Penn Central. I =
guess we=20
can say that the PRR was able to stay out of recievership because of the =

conservative leadership it offered, promoted from within and was run by =
railroad=20
people. Unlike many roads today. Just my opinion, everyone. And it might =
be safe=20
to say, by some, that they remained ultra-conservative for too long! But =
there=20
is an old saying, we've all heard...hindsight is always 20/20. Bob =
Holden=20
</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:30:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Steel Industry

In a message dated 03/08/2000 4:16:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes:

<< >> And in retrospect, the PRR has outlived ... 
 >> the railroads that replaced it. 
 
 > The only one close is the Union Pacific actually exceeds at 133 or 134
 years. 
 >  And the only road to open and close the 20th century with the same name.
 
 
 Ah, yes, but didn't the UP go into receivership?
  >>
Yes, I believe they came out of receivership in 1887.  So that would still 
make 113 years.  Not quite up to the PRR yet.

Rich Orr

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 21:45:19 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] looking for a layout...

Derrick,

Are you looking for a branch line or a piece of the Broad Way from, say,
Harrisburg to Chicago?

Based on what you're describing, it almost sounds to me like you'd want a
piece of the main line near (but not necessarily in) Pittsburgh.  You could
have your steel mills, complex trackwork, long distance passenger service, and
a healthy (at least in the steam era) commuter service.

For me steam locomotives are essential; are you like me, or can you be
flexible?

Do you want your freight traffic to be mostly steel oriented, or would you
like a broader traffic base?

Don't misunderstand; I'm throwing this out as food for though.  I envy your
space and wish you well in the planning and construction process!

Doug

Derrick J Brashear wrote:

> or more precisely an area of the Pennsy to model that has what I want:
> -at least one steel mill
> -at least one interlocking with a flyover or duckunder, or both, and
>   hopefully with interesting signalling possibilities
> -somewhere I could plausibly use a Model Railroad StoneWorks bridge:
>   in this case the 2 arch bridge from the Spruce Creek area
> -a decent amount of "main" trackage so I can run some passenger service
> -and of course some switching opportunities
> -a town of some consequence (not necessarily a city)
> -a reasonably sized set of facilities would be very nice to have
> -something where i can get it a small amount of electrified trackage (not
> the bulk of the layout) would also be nice but is a lower priority
>
> I have a 28x13 foot room to play with; The 13 foot dimension is
> constrained by ceilings which slope down towards it, making it more useful
> to keep the layout along the outside.
>
> The 28 foot dimension is bisected on one side by the entrance to the room,
> outside the 28x13 dimensions. The 13 foot dimension has windows placed in
> the middle of those walls, meaning I'll need to hold the loop across the
> end of the room in a few feet.
>
> A second level is a possibility but probably not in the cards at the
> start.
>
> It's probably more appropriate to reply to me directly rather than to the
> list. I look forward to any suggestions.
>
> -D
>
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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR/PENN CENTRAL
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:57:05 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Let's keep this discussion on the PRR, and not personal questions. The =
responses I have given, I have qualified them for everyone. I am not =
concerned with any merger's, or for that matter, anything other than =
learning about the PRR. I have found the many opinions offered by fellow =
list members to be enlightening. Let me make one more thing very clear, =
whatever my job activities are, is my business alone. Please, keep our =
focus on the PRR. Thanks, Bob.

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF8951.9F959580
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Let's keep this discussion on the PRR, and not =
personal=20
questions. The responses I have given, I have qualified them for =
everyone. I am=20
not concerned with any merger's, or for that matter, anything other than =

learning about the PRR. I have found the many opinions offered by fellow =
list=20
members to be enlightening. Let me make one more thing very clear, =
whatever my=20
job activities are, is my business alone. Please, keep our focus on the =
PRR.=20
Thanks, Bob.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 22:33:49 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Bowser G5s repower with NWSL 142-6 gearbox

Hello list,

I'm planning to repower my Bowser G5s with a can motor and NWSL 142-6
gearbox.  My original plans to regear and use an Alco Products E6s
repower kit fell through when that manufacturer ceased operations.

Has anybody done this?  I've done three gearbox conversions so far, but,
as always, I welcome any wisdom from the list.

I used a Bowser G5s chassis with a 142-6 gearbox and one of the old
Sagami 1630 motors for another kitbash, and that combination (despite
the "speed" gearing) turned out to be a bit slow and lacked the lugging
ability of the DC-71 (which, sadly, did not fit in my application).

NWSL has 1630 motors back in stock; their product number for a double
shafted motor is 16307-9, with 17 mm shafts on each end.  I received a
very polite and prompt email from Mr. Martin, who owns the company,
telling me the dimensions of the shafts and that the motors were in
stock.  I'm always glad to see service like this.

I hope the above information helps at least some of you with kitbashing
projects.

Doug


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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] ROY Interlocking Follow Up
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:28:47 -0500

Howdy Jerry:
I'm still researching the other items, but I'd like to take a stab at #3.

The 1956 ct400 (book of rules) -
605. Interlocking signals govern the use of the routes of an interlocking,
and as to movements within interocking limits that are protected by home
signals and distant signals, their indications supersede the superiority of
trains, and engine and train crews are relieved from observing Rule 99 and
Rule 152.  Movements against the current fo traffic beyond home signal
limits must not be made escept under flag protection.
611. Signals must be kept in the postion displaying the most restrictive
indication except when displayed for a movement.

>From the cab signals section - engines (not equiped with cab signals)
operating within the confines of cab signal territory must observe all
signals and not exceed 20mph.  (Rule 564)

My guess is since this is also cab signal territory that all routes (read
sidings and branches) that intersect (with main lines) within the confines
of the home signals of an interlocking, must have a signal that can display
a complete stop.
I checked a couple of other interlockings and found that any route that
directly connected to a "main line" had a signal protecting it.
I have pictures of Roy from 1991 and it looks like the sheet on Mark Bej's
site and except for the addition of a crossover from Conrails (NS) freight
main to the east bound passenger main.  The cross over is a reverse of the
others - an eastbound on the freight main can cross over to the eastbound
main.  The last time I went through the area (1995), Amtrak was using the
siding for storage.  I'll need to go back again and see if the siding is
still there.  I do not recall if the signal is still there.
You might also want to check with some signal list - I'm just getting
started on signal stuff.

Cos
Home Page http://www.wsbcos.com
Train Page http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm
100mb of web space for  $25.00 per month

> 3. There is a turnout (#13) just east of the split, on the Columbia
Branch.
> It is a dead end spur on every diagram I have seem. Yet it appears to have
a
> mast signal protecting the interlocking. What might this spur have been
used
> for to warrant such attention?



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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 23:40:58 -0800
From: "Stueart Engineering - Doug, Sharon, Sarah Edwards" <stueart@ior.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Steel Industry/UP

Lets not forget the California Western either!

Doug

BPX29@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> Vagel K. quotes an earlier posting that says, in part:
> ----
>  The only one close is the Union Pacific actually exceeds at 133 or 134
> years.
> >  And the only road to open and close the 20th century with the same name.
> ----------------------
> Didn't the B&O go well over 150 years? And so did the D&H, though partially
> as a canal company. As for entering and leaving the 20th century under one
> moniker, how about KCS, BAR and the FEC? I'm kinda asking, cause I don't
> really keep up on modern railroading, but aren't these lines still around?
> How about EJ&E, TRRA, and the IC (though not continuous under that nane). CP
> may be unfair as it's Canadian, but has had trackage in America under that
> nane for over a hundred years. Must be others that escape me at the moment.
> Any ideas?
> Barry Peltier
> ps-C&NW also went over 150 years, it seems.bp
> 
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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 08:26:35 -0500
From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] B & O, Union Pacific

One more time....the PRR paid those dividends every year  using the cash
it got from owning N&W stock (at the expense of maintaining the PRR's
structure.)  Not exactly a good business practice. JimMcDaniel

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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:51:57 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: RE:  [PRR] Looking for a Layout

Derrick, you're looking for an area to model that includes a steel mill,
reasonable passenger service, a stone arch bridge, an interlocking w/
fly-over and fairly complex track arrangement, some other (presumably
industrial) switching, and reasonably large (presumably engine) facilities. 
Electrified trackage, you state, would be nice, as well.

Sounds like the Philly area vic. Eddystone, pre-WW 2, I think.  I'm not sure
about the steel mill bit, but you might be able to include the Phoenix
rolling mill.  That concern went WAY back to the early 19th century, but may
have survived in some steel making capacity into the 1930s or 40s.

Let me recommend an area that I have a somewhat better feel for, which,
except for catenary, meets your needs very nicely:  East Pittsburgh to
Pennsylvania Station in Downtown Pgh, ca. 1930s - 1940s.  Note, I did not
include Braddock, w/ ET Works.  In my scenario, you would be modeling a
smaller, independent mill in the Lawrenceville/Strip District area, such as
Cyclops or Crucible.  Your interlocking w/ flyover would be the Jct. between
mainline and Brilliant Branch and includes the wonderful 3-story brick
interlocker w/ carefully manicured lawn and shrubs.  The stone bridge would
be the high viaduct on the Brilliant Branch over Silver Lake enroute down to
the Allehgheny river.  Passenger service, besides mainline trains, would be
commuter service between E. Pgh and Penn Station ... G5's in steam, RS-3's
in diesel-electric.  Loads of industrial switching between Wilkinsburg and
downtown, and you could even include a cameo by the B&O as it passes under
and runs parallel coming out of the west portal of Schenley Tunnel.  Engine
servicing facilities at 21st (?) Street approaching the passenger station. 
E. Pgh and Penn Station/Strip District produce yards could be "off scene" w/
staging, allowing you to concentrate on modeling and operating the mill in
the Allegheny valley, selected industries vic. Wilkinsburg, and commuter
passenger service at such places as Wilkinsburg, Homewood, and E. Liberty. 
As to electrified trackage, why not a street car line?  

Catenary?  GG-1s?  Git Aught!

Vagel Keller
Unabashed Pittsburgh Booster

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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:24:21 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: RE:  [PRR] Looking for a Layout

--- vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote:
> Derrick, you're looking for an area to model that
> includes a steel mill,
<snip>
> Electrified trackage, you state, would be nice, as
> well.
<snip>
> As to electrified trackage, why not a street car
> line?  

I can't cite a source, but I recall reading something
to the effect that for a time, the Westinghouse
inter-works railway between East Pittsburgh and North
Trafford was set up with overhead wiring to allow
testing of electric locomotives.

If I had to make a stab at it, I'd say sometime in the
teens or 20's. Don't know whether it was trolley wire
or catenary, but I suspect the latter, as Westinghouse
himself was a proponent of a standard electrification
scheme for railroads and presumably would want a test
track to demonstrate his ideas.


=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

__________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:07:44 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <jshickler@lkerie.com>
Subject: [PRR] Wayne & Strafford station info request

I received the following e-mail requesting info on Wayne & Strafford
stations.  I'm up in the other corner of the state, so I'm not familiar
with them.  If anyone can help, please e-mail her at the address
listed.  Thanks!

-----------------------

> Hi, 
> 
> My name is Melodye Jemmott. I am doing some research on the
Pennsylvania
> Railroad. I am mainly trying to find information on the Wayne and
> Strafford Stations. 
> I am not having much success, especially with the Strafford
Station.
> Could you please send me some information about these two
stations?
> 
> If you can, I would appreciate it.
> 
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Melodye Jemmott
> 
> 
> My e-mail address is: meljemmott@juno.com



--------------------------------------

-- 
Jerry Shickler
Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm


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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:24:11 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] Westinghouse I-W Rwy Was: Looking for a layout

Looking about a bit, I found:

www.georgewestinghouse.com

There, at /inter.html and /inter2.html are photos of a
steam train or trains, said to be on the inter-works
railway. There are poles with some sort of overhead
wire visible. Unfortunately, no date on the image.

At /valley.html one finds the text of a pamphlet
boosting the Westinghouse Valley, put out by the W. V.
Board of Trade. In it, one finds:

"Adjoining the electrical works is the Westinghouse
Machine Company buildings. This department constructs
and builds electric locomotives, some as high as
10,000 horse power, and much other heavy machinery,
such as air pumps, steam turbines,... 

"Three miles up the valley is located the Westinghouse
Foundry at Trafford City,... The foundry plant is
connected with Turtle Creek and East Pittsburgh by an
electric inter-works railroad.  On this road the
electric locomotives are tested out, and are speeded
back and forth running a thousand miles before being
shipped to the buyer."

/silver.html gives the text of a pamphlet printed for
the 25th anniversary of the founding of Wilmerding.
There it states that the Board of Trade was founded in
1915.

So, although the date is not given for the material in
/valley.html, it could hardly have been before 1915,
since before then there was no Board of Trade to
publish it. The statements about the electric railway
are in present tense, so I take it that in 1915 one
would have found electric locomotives of up to 10,000
HP hurtling between East Pittsburgh and Trafford on
the Westinghouse Inter-Works Railway.

While I have reservations about 10,000 HP in 1915, it
would seem that the author was thinking of something
bigger than a streetcar. Granted, 1915 is rather early
for the Derrick project, but perhaps he paid extra for
the Five Decade Slip Rider on his modeller's license. 



=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob

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From: AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:34:10 EST
Subject: [PRR] Spruce Tower

Hello fellow Pennsy Enthusiasts.

     I am an avid HO Gauge PRR Modeler and am attempting to scratchbuild an 
HO model of Spruce Tower which was located near the Spruce Creek Tunnels in 
Central Pennsylvania.  I am interested in any info on the tower as well as 
any photos anyone may have that I may purchase for the modeling project.  
Thanks in advance.
Gus Minardi     augustominardi@cs.com           

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR/NYC Merger
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:52:50 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Greg...& list...One of the things I have learned about the PRR, =
including how powerful they were in the city that I grew up =
in...(Baltimore). is how vast the Pennsy System really was. The only =
reason I made the reference to the BNSF, was to compare roads , one =
former, one current that is as large as the PRR was! It is in no way an =
effort to compare the two roads. We live in a totally different economic =
climate nowadays, anyway...it would be impossible to judge the Pennsy by =
todays standards. Hence, the PRR is still known; and respected even =
today. I feel the roads that are running today are in a different =
climate and I am grateful that a lot of the former PRR infracture is =
still in use. Can you imagine Amtrak constructing a Northeast Corridor =
with out government assistance? It would cost an estimated one billion =
dollars, is a figure that I heard! No knock on Amtrak!!!! I am so happy =
that we had a Conrail, even if they tore up a lot of the former Pennsy. =
I couldn't imagine going up to the Horshoe and not see any trains!!! =
Regards Everyone, Bob

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Greg...&amp; list...One of the things I have learned =
about the=20
PRR, including how powerful they were in the city that I grew up=20
in...(Baltimore). is how vast the Pennsy System really was. The only =
reason I=20
made the reference to the BNSF, was to compare roads , one former, one =
current=20
that is as large as the PRR was! It is in no way an effort to compare =
the two=20
roads. We live in a totally different economic climate nowadays, =
anyway...it=20
would be impossible to judge the Pennsy by todays standards. Hence, the =
PRR is=20
still known; and respected even today. I feel the roads that are running =
today=20
are in a different climate and I am grateful that a lot of the former =
PRR=20
infracture is still in use. Can you imagine Amtrak constructing a =
Northeast=20
Corridor with out government assistance? It would cost an estimated one =
billion=20
dollars, is a figure that I heard! No knock on Amtrak!!!! I am so happy =
that we=20
had a Conrail, even if they tore up a lot of the former Pennsy. I =
couldn't=20
imagine going up to the Horshoe and not see any trains!!! Regards =
Everyone,=20
Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser G5s repower with NWSL 142-6 gearbox
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:07:43 -0000

The combination of the NWSL 142-6 gearbox and a Sagami 16-30 is pretty
sound.  A larger motor with more torque would be even better.
I have built / re-motored  a few locos with the 142-6 plus a Mashima 18/30
and 18/33 including a Bowser L1.  The Mashima range is readily available in
the U.K. and I notice their advert and website in the latest (for us) Model
Railroader. Excellent slow speed through the range to a sensible top speed
..... I'm not in the business of creating projectiles :-) The gearbox needs
a
steady bar attached to the mounting frame of the motor.  If the gearbox is
on a sprung or compensated axle it is advisable to make a 'floating'
mounting for the motor.  I also like the NWSL universal couplings to
transmit the drive from motor to gearbox.

Regards,
John H. Wright
Visit the Newcastle & District MRS website at its new URL:
http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ndmrs.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: 09 March 2000 04:33
Subject: [PRR] Bowser G5s repower with NWSL 142-6 gearbox


> Hello list,
>
> I'm planning to repower my Bowser G5s with a can motor and NWSL 142-6
> gearbox.  My original plans to regear and use an Alco Products E6s
> repower kit fell through when that manufacturer ceased operations.
>
> Has anybody done this?  I've done three gearbox conversions so far, but,
> as always, I welcome any wisdom from the list.
>
> I used a Bowser G5s chassis with a 142-6 gearbox and one of the old
> Sagami 1630 motors for another kitbash, and that combination (despite
> the "speed" gearing) turned out to be a bit slow and lacked the lugging
> ability of the DC-71 (which, sadly, did not fit in my application).
>
> NWSL has 1630 motors back in stock; their product number for a double
> shafted motor is 16307-9, with 17 mm shafts on each end.  I received a
> very polite and prompt email from Mr. Martin, who owns the company,
> telling me the dimensions of the shafts and that the motors were in
> stock.  I'm always glad to see service like this.
>
> I hope the above information helps at least some of you with kitbashing
> projects.
>
> Doug
>
>
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From: Hal6963@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:54:00 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Spruce Tower

Unusual tower, no windows track side. Ends only.

I may have a picture someplace, will search.

Harold
Modeling the Middle Division Circa 1916.
PRRT&HS 5224

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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 22:51:13 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] New IHC Heavyweights and IHC website

Hello list,

I was surfing, and I just found out that IHC's website is now fully
operational.  Their netdress is www.ihc-hobby.com.  You can also link
through Model Railroader's home page; IHC is listed under the heading of
manufacturers of locomotives and rolling stock.

I found out that IHC is planning a new series of heavyweight passenger
cars.  The web site said summer delivery, but this is the first I've
heard about them.  The site said that they'd be offering 8 cars lettered
for PRR.  Without knowing what prototype IHC has picked, I've no idea
whether or not the baggage car, combine, coach, and diner will be
accurate.

IHC did go into specifics about the observation (3-2, which I'm not sure
about what that means), sleeper (8-1-2), and a 12-1 sleeper.

Did the PRR have any of these cars?

Please forgive my Pullman myopia; I have all I can do to keep the
various members of the P70 family straight.

Doug


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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:14:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "Keith B. Thompson - Sun" <thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM>
Subject: [PRR] MP54 data


Hello,

I am looking for information, plans, text, photos,
on the various PRR MP54 MU cars. There are several
photos in Under Pennsy Wires, Pennsy Electric
Years and some other books that I have. And I have
a drawing for a class 54 coach and combine before
they were converted from the NJ Int. book on PRR
passenger car drawings.  The areas that I feel I
have the least amount of information are roof details
(esp. around the pan), the underside, the (powered)
trucks and how many different cars there were.

If anyone has possession of, or know where there
are more detailed photos and drawings I'd be happy
to pay for copies, shipping etc.

Also, if there are any known examples of MP54s
surviving in the northeast I would be interested
in that information as well.

Thanks in advance,
kbt

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From: "Sam Vastano" <svastano@hotmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] T1 from Locomotive Workshop??
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:39:01 EST

Hi group,
I wanted to know if anyone has ever had dealings with Locomotive Workshop 
from Englishtown NJ I saw their ad in March Model Railroad Craftsman Page 
112 Is this a good HO Kit, Comparable to Bowser???

Thanks

Sam
svastano@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:57:01 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Models - DCC & Sound

Howdy,

Man, am I BUMMED!  I just got off the phone with the folks at Soundtraxx
after asking for the umpteenth time when the GG-1 decoder would be
released.  The answer this time was that they currently have no plans to do
a GG-1 sound decoder!  Thus a rough chronology goes:

1998 - advertised in MR announcing a GG-1 decoder (about 6 months after
Dallee anounced theirs) release delayed 6 months ("due to other projects")
1999 - release delayed ("did we say we were doing this?")
2000 - no release contemplated ("you're the only person asking for one")

ARRRRRGH!  So, if you are interested in a DCC decoder for the GG-1 (and
adaptable to most other PRR electrics) please let me know, and I will
forward a list, or write Soundtraxx directly at: sales@soundtraxx.com

Happy? Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry
       _               _
      / \             / \
  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
 |- _______/ O     \_______ -| |_  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  _|
 | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |
 |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_|
 | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O | |=| 0==0                      0==0 |=|




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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:42:02 -0600
From: "Dr. George Pierson" <george.pierson@trnty.edu>
Subject: [PRR] Train show

> Hi, all,
>
> I wanted to alert you to a modular model railroad show next week in
> LaGrange, IL.  It's the All-American Railroad Show on Saturday, March
> 18th from 9 am to 5 pm.  It's at the Lyons Twsp. High School Field House
> (corner of Brainard & Cossitt).  Admission is $3.  This is a strictly
> "loook at the models" show - no selling of anything.
>
> There are lots of neat modular layouts in all scales.  However, pay
> particular attention to the Calumet Division of the NMRA modular layout,
> where you will see a fairly large HOn3 section, courtesy of John Massura
> and yours truely.  I'll have the really good stuff - eastern narrow
> gauge!!  Oh, yeh, and John will bring along a few items from someplace
> called Colorado.  There will also be some PRR standard gauge - Lord
> willing, I'll have my Miracle Castings BP-20's running occasionally, as
> well as a few other things.
>
> I'll probably be wandering around the layout trying to make converts to
> eastern n.g. or the PRR, as the occasion demands.  Say hello if you make
> the show.
>
> George Pierson


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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:25:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Detailed maps (NJ) 

Incidentally, I hate TopoZone, because there's no way to get at complete
maps, only to have them build an image from a bunch of small blocks of
maps on the fly. If that's what you want it works well (but doesn't
Microsoft Terraserver do the same thing these days?) but if not something
like the DRG exchange site  (http://216.36.33.21/~mgreger/GIS) is probably
more useful. 

-D




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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Projects
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:23:41 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Rich, Again, everyone...my point is not to place Amtrak in any bad =
light. I think everyone would agree that the PRR uncomplished massive =
improvement projects,i.e; Penn Station: 1910, Electricifying Project: =
1934-1938 approx, 30th St Station....the list goes on and on. And the =
projects were completed in a typical PRR fashion...'On Time". Something =
Amtrak would be hard pressed to do under normal circumstances. And =
without gov't intervention. That's why I am still, to this day, amazed =
to walk through 30th Street Station, or Penn Station, Baltimore...as an =
example and look at the quality of work accomplished by the PRR. And if =
infrastructure is any indication for the greatness of the PRR, I look at =
what is still being used today by other roads that was completed and =
designed by the PRR. It's awesome! Later, Everyone! Bob Holden

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rich, Again, everyone...my point is not to place =
Amtrak in any=20
bad light. I think everyone would agree that the PRR uncomplished =
massive=20
improvement projects,i.e; Penn Station: 1910, Electricifying Project: =
1934-1938=20
approx, 30th St Station....the list goes on and on. And the projects =
were=20
completed in a typical PRR fashion...'On Time". Something Amtrak would =
be hard=20
pressed to do under normal circumstances. And without gov't =
intervention. That's=20
why I am still, to this day, amazed to walk through 30th Street Station, =
or Penn=20
Station, Baltimore...as an example and look at the quality of work =
accomplished=20
by the PRR. And if infrastructure is any indication for the greatness of =
the=20
PRR, I look at what is still being used today by other roads that was =
completed=20
and designed by the PRR. It's awesome! Later, Everyone! Bob=20
Holden</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF8A69.F13450C0--


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From: "Dennis @ D & S HOBBIES" <dennis@onerrave.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New IHC Heavyweights and IHC website
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:47:31 -0500

I hope they do a better job choosing the specific plans than they did on the
streamlined cars.  The Pullman 3-2, 8-1-2 and 12-1 all have PRR potential.

Maybe they will have more information at the East Coast Hobby show in Fort
Washington at the end of the month.

I wonder if Branchline's product announcements helped them in their choice
of Pullman sleepers?   :o)

Dennis
mailto:dennis@onerrave.com

D & S HOBBIES
http://www.onerrave.com
34 Main Street
South Bound Brook, NJ 08880

(732) 271-0800     Voice
(732) 271-0805     Fax



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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] ROY Interlocking Follow Up
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 100 09:13:02 -0500 (EST)

Jerry Britton scribit:

> Couple of questions:

Here are some answers. You're aware that anything I say is probably incorrect,
and no doubt you will take that into account.

:-)

> 1. The twin passenger mains (main line) and the twin freight mains (Columbia
> Branch) typically were signaled one way per track (keep to the right).

They are on this diagram as well.

> However, both approaches from the east appear to show mast signals (not
> bridges) for both tracks, indicating that a westbound could be on any of the
> four tracks. Any comments?

Not mast signals as I think you mean the term. Note the bottom item on each
signal diagram is a circle. This indicated that the signal was mounted on the
(vertical) catenary pole. Had the signal been mounted on the ground, the diagram
would end in an inverted "T" at the bottom, such as you see with the 10LC dwarf.

> 2. Also these approaches from the east, it looks like the signal for the two
> tracks going against normal traffic is a mast signal between the two tracks,
> rather than on an overhead signal bridge. Am I reading this correctly?

You mean 8L and 12L. Indeed they are between the tracks. They are dwarf signals.
It was typical on PRR that, when approaching an interlocking on a track not
signanalled for travel in that direction, the home signal was a dwarf.

I really should get a short presentation together. Briefly, interlockings must
have all approaches protected. (This partially answers your question below, too.)
The ways into ROY interlocking are by passing the following signals: 6R, 8R,
10R, 12R eastbound; 6L, 8L, 10LC, 10L[AB], 12L westbound.


> 3. There is a turnout (#13) just east of the split, on the Columbia Branch.
> It is a dead end spur on every diagram I have seem. Yet it appears to have a
> mast signal protecting the interlocking. What might this spur have been used
> for to warrant such attention?

It is not a mast signal. Aside: "high signal", or more formally "high home signal",
would be the more appropriate term.

This is a dwarf signal. The only way to tell a dwarf apart from a high signal is the
height/length of the vertical line ("mast").  Hopefully (as on your diagram) thes
draftsman was conscientious and distinguished the two for you nicely. Context may help
to distinguish high signals (what you're calling a "mast signal") from dwarves if
you know the particular RR's practices. But I've seen some diagrams where it was not
entirely clear with some signals.

 
> 4. Note that an eastbound on the EB freight track can switch to the WB
> freight track but cannot switch any further (like to the main lines to
> continue east). Why would one want to do this? Or perhaps this was the end
> of "local delivery territory" out of Harrisburg and this was a runaround for
> locos for the trip back to Harrisburg?

Or perhaps it was a way to get a (short?) freight into the pocket protected by
the 10LC signal?

ROY seems to be designed to be able to get freights off the passenger tracks
(eastbound) and/or westbound freights onto the passenger tracks when necessary.
Seems. Speculation. Don't know. Wasn't there in 1957.


-- 
Mark D. Bej
bejm@eeg.ccf.org 

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Question
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:36:55 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Again, guys, my comments on the PRR paying dividends each and every year =
to stockholders, is not pushing the idea of whether or not they used N & =
W stock to make the dividend payments. Lot's of companies do it. I am =
making it a point to show the longevity of the PRR was no accident. It =
was operated by people who were railroad people. Whether or not the PRR =
used N&W stock to pay stockholders is a moot point. Whether it was a bad =
business practice...I'll leave that up to the experts. Many roads, =
including the PRR had interest in other roads all the time. The whole =
conjecture about the PRR and Penn Central is that it probably should =
have merged with the N&W rather than use its stock to pay dividends. =
And, perhaps, there would have never been a Penn Central. That is the =
focus of this discussion...not on business practices. Thanks guys, Bob=20

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Again, guys, my comments on the PRR paying dividends =
each and=20
every year to stockholders, is not pushing the idea of whether or not =
they used=20
N &amp; W stock to make the dividend payments. Lot's of companies do it. =
I am=20
making it a point to show the longevity of the PRR was no accident. It =
was=20
operated by people who were railroad people. Whether or not the PRR used =
N&amp;W=20
stock to pay stockholders is a moot point. Whether it was a bad business =

practice...I'll leave that up to the experts. Many roads, including the =
PRR had=20
interest in other roads all the time. The whole conjecture about the PRR =
and=20
Penn Central is that it probably should have merged with the N&amp;W =
rather than=20
use its stock to pay dividends. And, perhaps, there would have never =
been a Penn=20
Central. That is the focus of this discussion...not on business =
practices.=20
Thanks guys, Bob </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF8A74.2C73F6E0--


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From: "Bill Box" <bbox@csi.com>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Steam Loco Walkways
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:42:25 -0500

PRR Talkers:

I know that most PRR steam engines have dimpled walkways to improve
traction. Some even look like they were homemade with an arc welder.  Does
anyone know the pitch or distance between the dimples?  I am trying to make
a reasonably accurate conversion of a Fine Art Models Gauge 1 M1a into an
M1.

Bill Box


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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:55:28 EST
Subject: [PRR] B&O Group Available Again-Onelist

Folks,
I'm happy to report that I stumbled over a B&O list on Onelist.
URL:
 http://www.onelist.com/group/Baltimore_and_Ohio 

Apparently the old capitolist never got back up and running. Hopefully this 
can serve as a replacement.
regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:06:15 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/NYC Merger

In a message dated 00-03-09 12:47:14 EST, rholden@superpa.net writes:

<< Can you imagine Amtrak constructing a Northeast Corridor with out 
government assistance?  >>
    Even if they had total and unlimited government cooperation and
funds (which they don't), they would be hard pressed to do what the
PRR did from 1910 to 1938 on the Corridor. The current project is a
mere "lick-and-promise" in terms of actually achieving its stated goals.
   I tend to agree with those who claim that projects such as Penn
Station and its approaches "just couldn't be done today".  Unbridled
capitalism had its good aspects.

Rich Copeland


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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:27:03 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Detailed maps (NJ) 

On Topozone, I have found that if you wanted a map of New Jersey, you would 
have to build it county by county and NJ has quite a few counties and that is 
a fair amount of paper just for one map.


Jim Mancuso

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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1 Models - DCC & Sound
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:38:31 -0500

Hey Bruce and List:
I would love to have 5 for my GG1 fleet and about 4 to 5 more some other
stuff, however, I won't need them for about 4 to 5 years yet.
I guess they would work okay on the DD2, R1, P5, O1 and L6s, but what about
the E44s - wait, I could just record a Hoover vac and load that into the
chip! :)

Cos
Home Page http://www.wsbcos.com
Train Page http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm
100mb of web space for  $25.00 per month

> ARRRRRGH!  So, if you are interested in a DCC decoder for the GG-1 (and
> adaptable to most other PRR electrics) please let me know, and I will
> forward a list, or write Soundtraxx directly at: sales@soundtraxx.com
>
> Happy? Rails
> Bruce



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From: "Claus Schlund" <schlund@cwnet.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:46:12 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 data

There is an MP54 at Strasburg, in green Penn Central paint the last
time I saw it...

  -  Claus

From:           	"Keith B. Thompson - Sun" <thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM>

> Also, if there are any known examples of MP54s
> surviving in the northeast I would be interested
> in that information as well.


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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:10:46 -0800
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 (was Bowser K-9's)
From: "Doug and Marianne" <babal@slip.net>

> Didn't the Pennsy streamline all their baggage cars with fairings that 
> eliminated the clerestory roof's nonstreamlined appearance


This is not true.  It is my understanding that that the B60b was originally
built with the round roof (well before WWII), and I do not believe that any
of the clerestory roof B60 were given round roofs.  I do not have the
documentation for this however, and I hope that someone else can answer this
with more authority.  Dates built and roof configurations?

It was a very rare PRR passenger train that was not a mixture of heavyweight
and streamlined equipment.

Doug N.

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Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:34:44 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Morrisville Yard
From: Norman O Mueller <nmueller4@juno.com>

Does anyone know what changes, if any, were made to the Morrisville, PA
yard to accommodate the opening of the US Steel Fairless Works in 1951?

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:39:53 EST
Subject: [PRR] [ldsig] Auto Parts Trains

Folks,
Over on the layout design list, one of the members posted this question. Can 
anyone help Paul with this inquiry? 

He wrote:

From: Paul Catapano <hpcatapano@earthlink.net>

   I model West Virginia, July 1952. Draw a circle with Charleston in
the center. Include Eastern Kentucky, up to Zanesville, Ohio. East to
Clifton Forge, and South to Dante, Va. I do not model this whole area,
but for the sake of my question take this area in to consideration. Auto
parts/Finished Autos, in which direction could I expect to run trains of
this make-up? In 1952 were there any parts plants outside of , what is
generally considered to be the auto capitol, Detroit. Would Parts trains
be going to or coming from the South? Or would my auto trains be
finished autos going to distribution centers? Was a concept of a
centralized regional distribution center around in 1952? Would I be more
likely to find a few auto cars in a train as opposed to a solid
auto/auto parts train?
   I'm very sorry to be so vague and take so long. Thanks to every one.

Paul Catapano
Burbank, Ca.

Thanks,
Barry Peltier

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Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:57:40 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Question


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rholden wrote:

> Again, guys, my comments on the PRR paying dividends each and every
> year to stockholders, is not pushing the idea of whether or not they
> used N & W stock to make the dividend payments. Lot's of companies do
> it. I am making it a point to show the longevity of the PRR was no
> accident. It was operated by people who were railroad people. Whether
> or not the PRR used N&W stock to pay stockholders is a moot point.
> Whether it was a bad business practice...I'll leave that up to the
> experts. Many roads, including the PRR had interest in other roads all
> the time. The whole conjecture about the PRR and Penn Central is that
> it probably should have merged with the N&W rather than use its stock
> to pay dividends. And, perhaps, there would have never been a Penn
> Central. That is the focus of this discussion...not on business
> practices. Thanks guys, Bob
>
>

Bob:

I'm confused.  Who are you having this discussion with?  I'm getting
only your posts.

Richard Wallis

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
&nbsp;
<p>rholden wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font size=-1>Again, guys, my comments
on the PRR paying dividends each and every year to stockholders, is not
pushing the idea of whether or not they used N &amp; W stock to make the
dividend payments. Lot's of companies do it. I am making it a point to
show the longevity of the PRR was no accident. It was operated by people
who were railroad people. Whether or not the PRR used N&amp;W stock to
pay stockholders is a moot point. Whether it was a bad business practice...I'll
leave that up to the experts. Many roads, including the PRR had interest
in other roads all the time. The whole conjecture about the PRR and Penn
Central is that it probably should have merged with the N&amp;W rather
than use its stock to pay dividends. And, perhaps, there would have never
been a Penn Central. That is the focus of this discussion...not on business
practices. Thanks guys, Bob</font>
<br><font size=-1></font>&nbsp;
<br><font size=-1></font>&nbsp;</blockquote>
Bob:
<p>I'm confused.&nbsp; Who are you having this discussion with?&nbsp; I'm
getting only your posts.
<p>Richard Wallis
</body>
</html>

--------------0105E1B09A68EE8E14620281--


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From: Paul Stumpff <urr304@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] [ldsig] Auto Parts Trains
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:40:30 -0500

Barry:
I spent a few years in the automotive supply chain, even though not at the time frame specified, I did learn some of the history.

In 1952, I believe Ford did have the Atlanta assembly plant and Ford's truck plant at Louisville, but I do not think there were any other BIg Three assembly plants in the South or south of the Ohio. Most plants were in Michigan or Ontario, other places Delaware [Chrysler], Baltimore [GM]; New Jersey [Ford]; New York [GM]; Massachusetts [GM]; Ohio had a couple assembly plants, but many component plants in north and between Toledo and Cincinnati. There may have been a few component factories in Virginia, but these would not be anywhere near the size of current operations that are now common south of the Ohio. Auto parts in box cars going to either Atlanta or Louisville may have been possible.

I would believe that most car shipments through that region would be in lots in the automobile box cars of the period. 

During that period, most interest was in taking all the coal and lumber there was; not industrializing other than some chemical plants.

Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio]


-----Original Message-----
From:	BPX29@aol.com [SMTP:BPX29@aol.com]
Sent:	Saturday, March 11, 2000 8:40 AM
To:	prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject:	[PRR] [ldsig] Auto Parts Trains

Folks,
Over on the layout design list, one of the members posted this question. Can 
anyone help Paul with this inquiry? 

He wrote:

From: Paul Catapano <hpcatapano@earthlink.net>

   I model West Virginia, July 1952. Draw a circle with Charleston in
the center. Include Eastern Kentucky, up to Zanesville, Ohio. East to
Clifton Forge, and South to Dante, Va.  []  ... . Auto
parts/Finished Autos, in which direction could I expect to run trains of
this make-up? In 1952 were there any parts plants outside of , what is
generally considered to be the auto capitol, Detroit. Would Parts trains
be going to or coming from the South? Or would my auto trains be
finished autos going to distribution centers? Was a concept of a
centralized regional distribution center around in 1952? Would I be more
likely to find a few auto cars in a train as opposed to a solid
auto/auto parts train?
   I'm very sorry to be so vague and take so long. Thanks to every one.

Paul Catapano
Burbank, Ca.

Thanks,
Barry Peltier



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From: Ljgurke@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:16:32 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 Baggage Cars - roof and paint schemes

>It is my understanding that that the B60b was originally built with the 
round roof (well before WWII), and I do not believe that any of the 
clerestory roof B60 were given round roofs ...Hope that someone else can 
answer this with more authority.  Dates built and roof configurations?<

I have 2 ECW B-60s that are about read for the paintshop.  Have a question 
about roof vents and paint schemes for these cars ...

Referencing Pennsy Power III and PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger 
Equipment, I see pictures of this car with roof vents - with what appear to 
be circular vents (PPIII p. 369, w/rectangular windows) and the "bent over" 
rectangular vents, as well as with no vents at all.  Are any of these 
correct, depending on the particular car modelled?  Obviously the "express 
messenger baggage car" would be vented - page 4 of the PRR Color Guide shows 
this car with the "modern" paint scheme (PRR w/2 large keystones) - was the 
express messenger car also painted in the earlier "Pennsylvania" scheme or 
was it a more recent development?  If so is there a star on the side and 
where is it located?  Also, neither of these references have a picture of a 
B60 for my era (1956) - where would the "Railway Express Agency" lettering be 
located (above or below the belt rail, centered or at end)?

Any on-line references for pictures of the B60 would also be appreciated.  
Finishing these cars must be placed "on hold" until I can get some answers to 
the above queries ...

Mike Hagan
Andover MA

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From: "Stephen A. D'Addio" <saddio@snet.net>
Subject: [PRR] SoundTraxx Decoder for GG-1
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:57:20 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BF8B50.F4D4E220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bruce & List,

I own 13 GG-1's and would love to put sound decoders in them. Maybe, =
based on your responses, Jerry could "influence" SoundTraxx!

Thanks,
Steve D'Addio

------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BF8B50.F4D4E220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bruce &amp; List,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I own 13 GG-1's and would love to put sound decoders =
in them.=20
Maybe, based on your responses, Jerry c</FONT><FONT size=3D2>ould =
"influence"=20
SoundTraxx!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Steve D'Addio</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BF8B50.F4D4E220--


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From: DPoole17@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:07:10 EST
Subject: [PRR] DIAMOND PLATE

CONTACT . . . RALPH PICARELLO (Sales) with RIMEX METALS (USA) Inc.
2850 Woodbridge Ave.
Edison, NJ  08837
(800)526-7600
http://www.rimexmetals.com
FAX: (732)549-6435

     Mr. Picarello sent me a nice piece of color literature that details the 
material they make and it includes several things that I feel would make good 
diamond plate.  We are going to have to get samples to be sure but opinion is 
everything.  Each of us will have to make the choice.  #2-FD is what we have 
used for a long time and it really looks good on ONE INCH (1/12th) models.  
The problem that exists with #2-FD is that the die is damaged and it now has 
a streak down the middle.  Using this for things wider that about 1 1/2 may 
be a problem.  It should work fine for walkways, etc.  He gave me a 
"ballpark" figure of $1 per foot.  
     My suggestion is that you call or E-Mail Mr. Picarello and request the 
literature and after you see the literature, request samples of the material 
you feel you can use.
     I am going to pursue this with Mr. Picarello as soon as I need diamond 
plate again.
     Since I will not be doing anything about this in the near future, please 
let me know how any of you make out in getting what you want.

THANKS!!  
DICK POOLE                  Dpoole17@aol.com

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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] SoundTraxx Decoder for GG-1
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:10:51 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_006F_01BF8B74.5F12D480
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>From my close call experiences with the Gs, you only need to have the =
air horn sound.  They are quiet beasties!

Lew Matt
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Stephen A. D'Addio <saddio@snet.net>
  To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
  Date: Saturday, March 11, 2000 3:57 PM
  Subject: [PRR] SoundTraxx Decoder for GG-1


  Bruce & List,

  I own 13 GG-1's and would love to put sound decoders in them. Maybe, =
based on your responses, Jerry could "influence" SoundTraxx!

  Thanks,
  Steve D'Addio

------=_NextPart_000_006F_01BF8B74.5F12D480
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>From my close call experiences with the Gs, you only =
need to=20
have the air horn sound.&nbsp; They are quiet beasties!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lew Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
  </B>Stephen A. D'Addio &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:saddio@snet.net">saddio@snet.net</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
  href=3D"mailto:prr-talk@dsop.com">prr-talk@dsop.com</A> &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:prr-talk@dsop.com">prr-talk@dsop.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
  </B>Saturday, March 11, 2000 3:57 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>[PRR] =
SoundTraxx=20
  Decoder for GG-1<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bruce &amp; List,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I own 13 GG-1's and would love to put sound =
decoders in=20
  them. Maybe, based on your responses, Jerry c</FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>ould=20
  "influence" SoundTraxx!</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Steve =
D'Addio</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_006F_01BF8B74.5F12D480--


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From: Ljgurke@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:59:01 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 Baggage Cars - roof and paint schemes

Lew,

It's the ECW B60b kit.  I did find a drawing showing lettering detail and 
vent locations for the Express Messenger car on Rob Schoenberg's web page.

Regards,
Mike Hagan

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From: "Sam Vastano" <svastano@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 from Locomotive Workshop??
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 19:55:24 EST

Chris, Group,

No the ad specifically said HO, had a price of 300.00 for kit  and 599.00 
for one built. any information woul be appreciated.

Sam

>From: Christopher Chany <no-soup-4-you@worldnet.att.net>
>Reply-To: no-soup-4-you@worldnet.att.net
>To: Sam Vastano <svastano@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 from Locomotive Workshop??
>Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:28:11 -0500
>
>Sam,
>
>I think Locomotive workshop only makes O gauge stuff.
>
>Chris

______________________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 10:05:16 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Colossus -- The Actual Announcement
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Okay, folks, here it is...the answer to "What is Colossus?"

Dana at Train Stuff has provided me with the information to make the
following pre-announcement over the PRR-Talk list (thanks, Dana!). It will
be formally announced on their web site on Saturday, March 18.

Colossus is....The Wilmington (DE) Passenger Station!

This kit will be an extremely limited release. Only three kits are being
allocated per dealer. Merchandise Service is ready to accept Advance
Reservations. Visit

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/

    Select "Manufacturer = 'Train Stuff' " and search

There are more details about the product and four scanned samples of kit
portions.

This kit won't appeal to everyone, but for some it will be a "must have"!

Don't miss out, reserve today!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: Jpk815@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:05:19 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR Photos

While passing the NS Van Dorn Terminal (the prototype) today in Alexandria, 
VA, I happened to notice some interesting new power in the yard.  I also 
happened to have my digital camera handy and snapped a few pics.  The 
principal subject matter was the PRR 5345, a former Conrail GP-38-2.  Good to 
see the Standard Railroad of the World's reporting marks freshly painted on a 
locomotive.  I put the pics up at zing.com for all to see.  Enjoy:

<A HREF="http://www.zing.com/album/?id=4294614877">http://www.zing.com/album/?
id=4294614877</A>

Jay Keese

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From: DPoole17@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 23:28:31 EST
Subject: [PRR] LETTERING HELP

     I am building a 50', single-door box car and I need some assistance in 
lettering it correctly.  The era I am modeling is 1945-1955.  The lettering I 
need is NORFOLK & WESTERN and BALTIMORE & OHIO.  The cars are being built in 
0NE INCH scale (1/12).  If someone has the drawings for this lettering, the 
decal lettering sheet out of a decal set of HO or O scale decals or a good 
side view of these cars, could you please Zerox me a copy of the information 
and I will E-Mail you my address.
     The lettering will be applied to the cars in vinyl lettering so what I 
need should be of good enough quality to be scanned into a vinyl cutting 
computer.   
     The B&O and the N&W had a company logo on their cars at that time.  The 
B&O was a capitol dome inside a circle while the N&W had circle with a curved 
N&W inside it with a white cap on top & bottom.  The drawing of these logos 
would be most helpful but if the picture is large enough, it should work out 
OK.     
     The cars will be painted box car red and the lettering will be done in 
white unless you know something about these cars that I do not.  Your input 
will be most appreciated.   
     If I can help any of you get lettering for the larger scales, ONE INCH 
(1/12) or larger, I would be happy to do so.  The vinyl is reasonably cheap 
and with the appropriate artwork, reasonably accurate.
     THANKS for your help in advance . . .

DICK POOLE             Dpoole17@aol.com

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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:44:36 -0500
From: Jason Jaquith <jaj165@psu.edu>
Subject: [PRR] Towers around Corry PA

Does anyone know anything about PRR towers in and around Corry PA?  I know 
of MS tower, which controlled the crossing with the Erie mainline, but what 
about the points where the Chautauqua branch joined the P&E line in 
downtown Corry as well as where the two lines separated again near Lovell, 
about 3 miles to the west?  Were there towers at both of these 
locations?  If so, what were their names?  Anybody know if any photos of 
these other towers (not MS) have been published?  Thanks.

Jason Jaquith


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From: "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>
Subject: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:39:36 -0500

Gentlemen:

Does anyone know if there are published photos of PRR PA-1's in the Chicago
area? I would think that the most probable time frame would be in the late
1940's and early 1950's. 

Thanks in advance!


Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana

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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re: ***there is a polite PRR list, also...
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:47:53 -0500

Bill:

Please, cut the man a break!  I think he's doing a good job.  Maintaining
this list is a lot of work and he doesn't get paid for it.  None of us are
perfect, so the watchwords are patience and understanding in our dealings
with those who have a responsibility to the rest of us, particularly a
volunteer.  :-)  Have a nice day, and play nice!  :-)

Lew Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Strassner <prrsignals@adelphia.net>
To: lmatt@alltel.net <lmatt@alltel.net>
Date: Sunday, March 12, 2000 11:51 PM
Subject: ***there is a polite PRR list, also...


>***where those antics are NOT tolerated, let alone from the
>'listmeister".......
>
>Mostly prototypical PRR, as described in the Keystone, and you are welcome
>to try it out at =
>
>PRR-Subscribe@onelist.com
>
>Thx, Bill*-*
>
>


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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:51:19 -0500
Subject: [PRR] "Colossus" - Wilmington Station
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Just passing on that one of my allocation of three kits is already accounted
for.

If you want one of the two remaining, reserve soon!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:10:27 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago

Ted and All,

I have one excellant shot of a PA set coming out of Chicago, IL in the late Forties or early 50's on hot varnish in Brunswick Green (DGLE) with Gold Leaf "cat wiskers."  I can't ell you the lead units numbers but it will be the support photo for my so to be released article in Mainline Modeler.  It is a great 8x10 B&W.  Which ever unit it is it appears it has hit something as it has a petty good nick on the engineman's side above the pilot.  some ave seen a "sneak peek" of my completed engines.  They were a fun project and will introduce some new weathering techniques.  Watch for it.

Greg Martin

Ted Andrews wrote:

"Gentlemen:

 Does anyone know if there are published photos of PRR PA-1's in the Chicago area? I would think that the most probable time frame would be in the late 1940's and early 1950's.
Thanks in advance!
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana" 

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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:46:42 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <jshickler@lkerie.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Towers around Corry PA

> >From: Jason Jaquith <jaj165@psu.edu>
> >To: prr-talk@dsop.com
> >Subject: [PRR] Towers around Corry PA
> >Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:44:36 -0500
> >
> >Does anyone know anything about PRR towers in and around Corry PA?  I know
> >of MS tower, which controlled the crossing with the Erie mainline, but what
> >about the points where the Chautauqua branch joined the P&E line in
> >downtown Corry as well as where the two lines separated again near Lovell,
> >about 3 miles to the west?  Were there towers at both of these
> >locations?  If so, what were their names?  Anybody know if any photos of
> >these other towers (not MS) have been published?  Thanks.
> >
> >Jason Jaquith
> >

The following info is from Rick Bell, who provided many of the P&E
pictures on my site:

"EY" tower (pronounced "eye") still exists on the west end of the Corry
yard, on the south side of the tracks.  It is a yellow, single story,
block building.  The interlocking at Lovell was controlled by EY tower. 
The structure at the Lovell interlocking contained the CTC system for
the Chautauqua branch.

Track charts of the Corry/Lovell area from 1945 are posted on my site
at:

http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/tccorry.gif

Rick believes he has a picture of EY tower, and will give it to me to
post when he finds it.
-- 
Jerry Shickler
Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:43:51 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago

In a message dated 3/13/2000 9:47:10 AM Central Standard Time, 
Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes:

<< Does anyone know if there are published photos of PRR PA-1's in the Chicago
 area? I would think that the most probable time frame would be in the late
 1940's and early 1950's.  >>

Well,  the Kalmbach book Pennsy streamliners has a photo on page 70 which 
shows 5755 and an Erie-built and identifies the location as Chicago and the 
date as 1950, though the limitations of the photo would allow it to be 
anywhere and any date.  You are right about the dates in general: Bill 
Volkmer in his intro to Pennsy Diesel Years vol. 6 indicates that even the 
Alco and Baldwin freighters were mostly East of Crestline by 1960.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:53:19 -0500
From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 Baggage Cars - roof and paint schemes

MIke,

As far as I know, the messenger cars are a s old an idea as the B60b
itself.  The mess cars always had the star on the side between the 2
doors.   I too am building some B60b's from Bethlehem parts which I
bought at the Springfield show.  I am currently modifying the sides to
recess the doors.  Fotos of the cars show that the doors were recessed
about 6-9 inches.  The Bethlehem/ECW sides are flat.

  I bought the sides and roofs from Bethlehem for $.50 apiece!  I will
build a brass floor for them and fabricate my own ends.  At $1.50 I
figured I could afford a fleet of them!

I notice that you reside in Andover.  If you want to compare notes on
the cars (or any other PRR stuff) I can be found Thursday nights at the
North Shore Club in Wakefield.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

===================================================
Ljgurke@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >It is my understanding that that the B60b was originally built with the
> round roof (well before WWII), and I do not believe that any of the
> clerestory roof B60 were given round roofs ...Hope that someone else can
> answer this with more authority.  Dates built and roof configurations?<
> 
> I have 2 ECW B-60s that are about read for the paintshop.  Have a question
> about roof vents and paint schemes for these cars ...
> 
> Referencing Pennsy Power III and PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger
> Equipment, I see pictures of this car with roof vents - with what appear to
> be circular vents (PPIII p. 369, w/rectangular windows) and the "bent over"
> rectangular vents, as well as with no vents at all.  Are any of these
> correct, depending on the particular car modelled?  Obviously the "express
> messenger baggage car" would be vented - page 4 of the PRR Color Guide shows
> this car with the "modern" paint scheme (PRR w/2 large keystones) - was the
> express messenger car also painted in the earlier "Pennsylvania" scheme or
> was it a more recent development?  If so is there a star on the side and
> where is it located?  Also, neither of these references have a picture of a
> B60 for my era (1956) - where would the "Railway Express Agency" lettering be
> located (above or below the belt rail, centered or at end)?
> 
> Any on-line references for pictures of the B60 would also be appreciated.
> Finishing these cars must be placed "on hold" until I can get some answers to
> the above queries ...
> 
> Mike Hagan
> Andover MA
> 
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From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil
Subject: RE: [PRR] Allegheny & South Side RR query
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:37:43 -0800

Dan and list,  Thanks for the replies on the Allegheny & South Side RR!  The
info you dug up, as is often the case, raising as many questions as I had
initially.  That is, I guess, what makes this all so fun.
   The PRR's CT1000 for 1945 shows the A&SS tracks as PRR on the track
charts, but refers to ti in "Stations & Sidings" as "Allegheny & South Side
R.R. under the PRR's Whitehall Branch of the Mon Division!  Argh.
   If Oliver Iron & Steel owned it, why did it continue to run into the
60's?  The list of sidings also includes several other industries, including
Levinson Steel, Keystone Lumber, Sam Bluestone, Union Supply, Oliver (of
course), Macintosh-Hemphill, United Iron & Metal, A.M. Byers, Republic
Steel, and the Pittsburgh Terminal Warehouse & Transfer.  Many of these I
remember seeing, although several had gone out of business by the 60's.
Also, if Oliver closed, someone else bought the property and was operating
something at that site later, although I don't know what it might have been.
   Is it possible that PRR took over the track (c.1959) to reach their
customers that would have been cut off?
   Thanks again for doing all this digging!  It is very interesting stuff.
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@mciworld.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 10:11 PM
To: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Allegheny & South Side RR query


egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil wrote:

> OK, OK!  After a deafening silence due to my questions on the Allegheny &
> South Side RR (Not a single response),

Greetings to Elden and the list:

Let's try to change that.

A&SS was not corporately affiliated with the Pennsylvania. It does not show
up
in the three most likely histories: Schotter, Kennedy, or Coverdale &
Colpitts.

It does show up in Tom Taber's Railroads of Pennsylvania Encyclopedia and
Atlas
(1987), p. 10. Here's a summary of the entry: Opened 1895 with five miles of
track on Pittsburgh's South Side (its charter envisioned 12 miles of track,
running to/from Allegheny, the old name for what is now Pittsburgh's North
Side,
but it never made it there). Taber says "apparently not initially controlled
by
a steel company. Later owned by Oliver Iron & Steel Co. to serve their mill.
Plant shut down in 1959 and railroad discontinued operations 8-1-59.
Basically a
plant facility." The roster that Taber lists shows five steam engines, all
0-6-0s or 0-6-0Ts, a Whitcomb 65-ton diesel, and an EMD switcher, 600 hp,
sold
to Pittsburgh & Ohio Valley (I remember at least one SW1 on the P&OV;
perhaps
that was the former A&SS unit).

Hope this helps.

Dan




Dan Cupper
cupper@mciworld
Matthew 6:33






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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:26:11 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago

Ted and the list,

Check out page 99 of Carleton's Pennsy Diesel Power Review.  It has a shot of
PAs 5754 and 5758 at Englewood, IL on 22 August 1949.  The engines have the
original number boards, antenna sets, one horn, and closed front coupler
doors.  Naturally, the engines are in the dark green locomotive enamel scheme
with 5 stripes.

I don't own any of the Pennsy Diesel Years books (yet), but you might check
them for shots as well.

Doug

"Andrews, Ted" wrote:

> Gentlemen:
>
> Does anyone know if there are published photos of PRR PA-1's in the Chicago
> area? I would think that the most probable time frame would be in the late
> 1940's and early 1950's.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Ted Andrews
> Carmel, Indiana
>
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From: "Rail Classics" <railclassics@psn.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR H-2a Hoppers
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:26:57 -0500

Hello List;

Do any of you have photos of PRR H-2a Hoppers ? We are looking for material
on the unique hoppers that the PRR used in the 1950's for a project.

Thanks,
EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS
www.railclassics.com



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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:24:28 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Appeal to FAX List Subscribers
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

For anyone participating on any of Bill Strassner's FAX lists, I'd like to
make an appeal...

It was brought to my attention privately and off-list that Mr. Strassner was
making derogatory comments about this list AND ALL OF ITS SUBSCRIBERS.

Now, while I can quickly hit the delete key and forget about it, please
remember that, like every issue of The Keystone, every post to "PRR-Talk",
"PRR-FAX", and other lists become part of the permanent legacy of our
beloved Pennsylvania Railroad...via searchable archives.

I contacted Mr. Strassner, off-list, about this and asked him to cease and
desist. Not only did he not, but he brought all of the dirty laundry onto at
least two of his FAX lists.

No, I am not asking you to boycott his lists. I recognize that they may
better serve the needs of some PRR fans.

However, I am asking those of you on both this list and the PRR-FAX lists to
drop Mr. Strassner a polite request to discontinue this online garbage.

There is no room for it on-line or on-list. He can SPAM me personally as
much as he wants...or even do it on a web page. But please, keep it out of
the permanent legacy of the PRR.

Thank you.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:23:28 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show

Okay.
"That does it.  Out you two pixies go... through the door or out the window."
(--Nick in "It's A Wonderful Life")
Knock it off, the both of you.  Please.
It's the railroad, remember?  That's why we're here.  Individually, we can all
be irritating enough to each other that we'll never get along.  So let's focus
on the big picture... the one that's painted tuscan red and gold, and has a big
stylized keystone emblem all over it.
We love the both of you, but you're driving us CRAZY.

Richard Wallis


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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:53:38 EST
Subject: [PRR] Tom V. Back on line, what's new with LWFF, wants N6 drawings

Howdy all,

    I realize it's been awhile but I'm back on line ands looking forward to 
resuming my modeling and historical research.
    A miracle occurred last night. My mouse began working again. Without this 
ubiquitous device it was nearly impossible to file. As I've sold one story 
(on a local history, non rail-related subject) and will use the proceeds to 
complete upgrading my system with at least another 32 megs of memory ( 64 
would be ideal) for me to install voice data entry and command. And I've been 
told to expect my disability claim to be approved so I may have an income (I 
hope, I hope, I hope) which I can use to support the second Lines West Fans 
Fest but I'll still need help pulling it off.
    Has anything been settled about LWFF II?

    In one of the myriad crashes my system has suffered, I lost the N6 
drawings that Al Buchan posted back late last year. If any of ya'll archived 
them, I'd really appreciate it if you could send me a copy.

Tom V.

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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:59:41 -0500
From: "John Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] The Bill & Jerry Show

Amen, Amen and Amen!

Richard Wallis wrote:

> Okay.
> "That does it.  Out you two pixies go... through the door or out the window."
> (--Nick in "It's A Wonderful Life")
> Knock it off, the both of you.  Please. It's the railroad, remember?  That's why we're here.
> Individually, we can all be irritating enough to each other that we'll never get along.  So let's
> focus on the big picture... the one that's painted tuscan red and gold, and has a big stylized
> keystone emblem all over it. We love the both of you, but you're driving us CRAZY.

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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:17:34 -0500
Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Materials
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

My new issue of The Keystone arrived yesterday, with a fine article on the
Frederick Branch by Northern Central Chapter member Ivan Frantz.

It also included a convention registration form, which, as far as I know,
wasn't planned. Therefore, everyone in the Society will end up getting this
form in advance of those who requested the full mailer. It should be mailing
just about now.

Final reminder: the banquet this year will only seat 350. In prior years it
sold out at 500. There was another event booked for this venue BEFORE the
PRRT&HS committed to their three year stay. This will not be a problem in
2001 and 2002.

Also, there are still seats for the Friday night dinner for PRR-Talk
subscribers / Cyber Division members. It will be held at a nearby restaurant
where we can order off the menu but will have a private room. Figure $10-20
per person, depending on whether you order a sandwich or a full dinner. See
the Cyber Division web site to place a reservation:

    http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com

Hope to meet even more of you, as well as to get reacquainted with those
I've already met!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:32:01 -0500
Subject: [PRR] More Steam Roster Photo Indexers Needed
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

The numerical information for the massive steam roster searchable database
is progressing...even slightly ahead of schedule.

Quite a few folks have signed on to index photographs from various sources,
but many more are needed. There are a lot of very common books still
available on the list to select from. Please take a look and consider
helping us out here.

    See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/steamdataentry.html

Thanks!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
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From: CAl2446507@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:15:19 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show

No Man is a failer if he has freinds. Clairance
                                                     
                                                   Charlie

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:05:59 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago

Ted, Doug and List,

As I start my article and gather all my personal thought and data on the PRR ALCo PA/B-1, I reviewed my photo of the pair of PA/B-1 coming out of Chicago, IL last night.  IT was 5750 and an unidentified B-unit.  The photo is dated 11/49.  The unit has definitely hit something as the Bi-Fold doors on the engineman's side are gone, and the coupler cut lever is damaged but in place.  

There is a question that I would like to throw out to the list as there seems to be some conflict on exactly what happened. When did the PRR change from the 726 traction motors to the 752 traction motors?  If we can deduce that the gearing changed in 1952, was the traction motors changed at the same time?  If so, why would the PRR have installed the traction motor vents in 1951 on the noses, are they related or not?  Perhaps Bill Volkmer can tackle this one...  

Also if Dan Cupper is lurking, can you contact me privately off list, I would appreiate it, Dan I have lost your Email address.

Greg Martin 

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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:50:01 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago

While we are on the subject of the Pennsy Alco PAs, didn't the Pennsy pick up 
some of Lehigh Valley's PA's after that railroad terminated passenger service 
in 1961 or did the Lehigh use them all in freight service afterward?


Jim Mancuso

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From: "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] PA's in Chicago
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:59:31 -0500


Jim:

I don't believe that the PRR purchased any of the LV PA's. In fact, right
about that time (1961 through 1964) the PRR was beginning to trade in their
PA's for 2nd Generation units such as the RS-27's and the C-series from
Alco.

I think it was the consensus of the PRR motive power staff (please feel free
to jump in on this, Bill V.!) in the late 1950's that the PA's had a limited
future and should be "used 'til the drop", to quote a phase from an Al
Stauffer book.

Ted Andrews
-----Original Message-----
From: GenJim833@aol.com [mailto:GenJim833@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 3:50 PM
To: TGREGMRTN@aol.com; doug.kisala@mciworld.com
Cc: Ted.Andrews@woolpert.com; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago


While we are on the subject of the Pennsy Alco PAs, didn't the Pennsy pick
up 
some of Lehigh Valley's PA's after that railroad terminated passenger
service 
in 1961 or did the Lehigh use them all in freight service afterward?


Jim Mancuso

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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:09:55 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago

I quickly looked through Pennsy Power II and III.  No shots
of PA's anywhere west of the Steubenville area. Lots of
shots east of Pittsburgh, and one caption describing a
"rare appearance" of the units on the Pittsburgh Division.

I seem to recall a shot of a PA-1 on the Union, but couldn't
readily say where (either in terms of shot location, or in terms
of where I saw it!)


Rich Copeland

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:29:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] PA's in Chicago

Ted,

    Your original question asks if there is any published photos of PA's
in the Chicago area. How about Englewood, Ill.? In the book "A Pennsy
Diesel Power Review" by Carlton on page 99 is a photo of PA # 5754 &
5758. Date is August 22 1949. Also on the next page, 100, is a photo of
PA #5754 and unknown B Unit heading up the Brodway Limited!!! So says
the caption anyway. Photo taken in Sept. of 1948. According to these
dates the locos' would still be painted DGLE. .....Gary




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:54:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PRR] Back Cover New Keystone

List,

     For those of you who have recieved the new Keystone issue, take a
look on the back cover. You will see an N6-B Cabin. Is it my eyes or has
the sides of this cabin been painted "Caboose Red"?  You can see the
"normal" frieght car color on the steps, the end sill and even where the
"re-pack" stenciling was saved. Looks a little unPennsy in this
color......Gary 




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:25:19 EST
Subject: [PRR] N6B on Keystone

I noticed the Caboose also. It does look a little to red for the photo date 
mid 1957, Iwas also wondering if the date on the photo was correct since if 
it is 1957 why doesn't the keystone have a shadow, and what PRR Hopper 
class(es) were painted black in 1957? The hopper is in the background. I 
thought the PRR's first black hoppers were the H39's in 1958-59 but I could 
be wrong.

Brian J Carlson

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:58:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] N6B on Keystone

Brian,

     The description of the photo is a little confusing the way it is
written. The photo was actually taken in the mid-late 60's. Its
assignment was Enola in 1957. 
     I got a magnifying glass out and read the "repack date"  It appears
to be 1-17-63. That will expain the black H-39? in the background. The
red paint (my guess) was probably a local shop applied paint. A "paint
it with what ever you got lying around" order!.....Gary




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:23:06 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Looking for Ray Burkhart

Hello list,

Ray, please forgive my mispelling of your last name.  Please contact me
off list.
The package arrived in great shape!

Doug


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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:32:18 -0500

Being a "newbie" to this list, I may be going out on a limb here, but I
would like to add my voice to the chorus of those clamoring for an end to
the personal flaming etc. that's sullying an otherwise tremendous effort
here. I have to say I was almost scared away initially by some of what I
have seen. I made a post a while ago to that effect and it was only a kind
response off-list by one of the members that kept me going. I really
appreciate the work that the Listmaster has put into maintaining this forum;
God knows I couldn't even begin to do something like this. And who knows how
many potential fellow "followers of the Keystone Order" (love that term, Mr.
Wood) have been scared off by this.

Just my opinion, flawed as it may be.

Rick S.
Parsippany NJ



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From: Cathatjim@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:47:27 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show

I know I'll get flamed for this, but here it goes.
The disagreement that's happening right now sort of reminds me of the Penn 
Central in fighting. The Red Team thought they did things the best way and 
the Green team thought theirs was the best. Hopefully, we can find a middle 
ground without destroying both list.
Both list serve their purpose and not everyone's going to get along, the 
world just doesn't work that way.
Let's keep the topic to the "standard railroad of the world" and the memory 
of that time. Whether it's through modeling or other esoteric way's
My 2 cents worth
Jim

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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:11:42 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show

I am researching a book on the Pennsylvania Railroad and some of this crap is 
making it very difficult for me to get the information I need, such as on 
passenger operations, diesel roster, where I can get photos to illustrate the 
book and the like and yet the manure pile grows larger with this sort of 
thing and trivial tripe about how a Bowser K4 is supposed to run on one's 
layout. Modelling the Pennsy is all well and good, but I am after the 
information to put together an accurate book about the great Pennsylvania 
Railroad in its final years of operation and  a swelling manure pile of tripe 
and insignficent trivia isn't helping the cause. Let's knock it off and get 
back on the right track.

Jim Mancuso

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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:00:25 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] N6B on Keystone

In a message dated 3/14/00 8:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mittner@webtv.net writes:

> Brian,
>  
>       The description of the photo is a little confusing the way it is
>  written. The photo was actually taken in the mid-late 60's. Its
>  assignment was Enola in 1957. 
>       I got a magnifying glass out and read the "repack date"  It appears
>  to be 1-17-63. That will expain the black H-39? in the background. The
>  red paint (my guess) was probably a local shop applied paint. A "paint
>  it with what ever you got lying around" order!.....Gary

I thought it was the mid 60's also. Another tip was the reading cars in the 
background. They appear to be 3 bay covered hoppers if one looks at the 
lettering layout. 1957 would be a tad early for them too. Not sure if that is 
a H39 in the background but I can't think of another car that got that style 
lettering on black paint.
 Regards Brian

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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:30:06 EST
Subject: [PRR] A little civility, please

To all,

    It seems like I never had a massive equipment failure that kept me 
offline for six months. The threads are just where they were in October when 
Mr. Stassner got under my skin sparking an ill-considered response that did 
nothing but embarrassed me and convinced the data processing gods to smite my 
machine with a plague of glitches.
    I generally disagree with Mr. Strassner but I now see no reason to argue 
with him. We need to be patient and devote our energies to building the 
PRRT&HS into a better organization rather than infighting. I see my LWFF 
events as an adjunct of PRRT&HS activities. Nearly all who attended the first 
one in April 1999 were T&HS members. Instead of infighting, I'd rather build 
a good record of planning and executing well-attended events focusing on 
Lines West issues. That way at some time in the near future (2002 or 2003 I 
hope.) I and others can present a strong case for a Lines West PRRT&HS 
national convention location and start a new tradition of alternating East 
and west locations.
    And then maybe we could effectively raise cash from a growing and 
activated membership to finally complete organizing and indexing the data now 
inaccessible in Lewiston, Pa.
    Just my 2 cents worth. Long ago I realized that living well is the best 
revenge. 

Tom V.

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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:40:30 EST
Subject: [PRR] PA's in Chicago, the true photos are out there...

Rich, 

    Rick Tipton's got a lovely shot of a westbound Green A-B--A lashup on the 
Panhandle southern Columbus Division mainline at Zimmerman entering the 
nearly 1 percent grade between Xenia and Dayton circa 1948. The lack of 
photos is from a smaller number of photographers and an interest in 
photographing steam. Regularly scheduled passenger and freight service The 
Panhandle main lines through Xenia to Cincinnati and Dayton were fully 
disseized in August 1949. There had to be something pulling them trains.

Tom V.

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:26:52 EST
Subject: [PRR] PA's west of Columbus

In a message dated 3/14/2000 4:20:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRRMAN@aol.com 
writes:

<< I quickly looked through Pennsy Power II and III.  No shots
 of PA's anywhere west of the Steubenville area. Lots of
 shots east of Pittsburgh, and one caption describing a
 "rare appearance" of the units on the Pittsburgh Division.
 
 I seem to recall a shot of a PA-1 on the Union, but couldn't
 readily say where (either in terms of shot location, or in terms
 of where I saw it!)
 
 
 Rich Copeland
  >>
It's not Chicago, but I have a late 40's George McKay shot of a PA-PB-PA at 
speed at Milepost 8 (Zimmerman Ohio) west of Xenia, headed for Dayton.  All 
of this is on the Columbus Division.  Unfortunately, the lighting doesn't 
permit reading the leading unit's number, but it appears (of course) in 
5-stripe.

Logic says the shot is 1948 or so -- the passenger trains to St Louis were 
converted to EMD E units as fast as they could be delivered (presumably 
because of their greater reliability).  Earlier but similar shots from 1946 
in the area show one (or often two) K4s as power.  Specifically, the 
westbound Union through here carried a single K4, judging from Richard D. 
Acton, Sr. shots.



Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 
(HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West 

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:26:50 EST
Subject: [PRR] PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 on clearance.

Talk about being a long way from the flagpole (Philadelphia?).  Sometimes the 
Lines West blues can become acute.

Happened to be in the local Great Train Store today, and noticed that they 
had reduced their copy of Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide Vol 1 to $33.75.  
Mind you, this is a key PRR reference book that's out of print and already 
sought by the Pennsy fans who missed it, and it's being clearanced!

This could only happen in a town where 75% of the people are L&N fans, the 
other 25% like CSX, and exotic is spelled "Clinchfield".

FWIW, me and the other Pennsy modeler in this metro area of 830,000 people  
got together Monday night to operate my layout.  This week is the first time 
in a year I've seen him (he's been working out of town).

Rick Tipton
Still modeling the Pennsy in Louisville, KY

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From: "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] PA's in Chicago, the true photos are out there...
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:37:25 -0500

Rich, Tom, and the List:

Upon looking in the Kalmbach's Pennsy Streamliner book, there is a photo of
a PA lashup (can't read the number) leaving St. Louis terminal pulling a
passenger train. This is additional photographic proof of the PA's west of
Pittsburgh on the Panhandle. I believe the photo is in the same time frame
as the Zimmerman, Ohio photo.


Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: LINESWEST@aol.com [mailto:LINESWEST@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 1:41 AM
To: PRRMAN@aol.com; PRR-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PA's in Chicago, the true photos are out there...


Rich, 

    Rick Tipton's got a lovely shot of a westbound Green A-B--A lashup on
the 
Panhandle southern Columbus Division mainline at Zimmerman entering the 
nearly 1 percent grade between Xenia and Dayton circa 1948. The lack of 
photos is from a smaller number of photographers and an interest in 
photographing steam. Regularly scheduled passenger and freight service The 
Panhandle main lines through Xenia to Cincinnati and Dayton were fully 
disseized in August 1949. There had to be something pulling them trains.

Tom V.

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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:39:12 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <jshickler@lkerie.com>
Subject: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations

Has the society ever considered videotaping the convention
presentations?  If they could sell the tape, along with copies of any
charts/handouts etc. for the same price as admission, I'm sure a lot of
people who are unable to attend would be interested.  I hate that I'll
miss Al Buchan's PRR in Erie presentation. :-(
-- 
Jerry Shickler, PRRT&HS #6288
Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:16:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations

In a message dated 3/15/2000 8:47:15 AM Central Standard Time, 
jshickler@lkerie.com writes:

<< Has the society ever considered videotaping the convention
 presentations?  If they could sell the tape, along with copies of any
 charts/handouts etc. for the same price as admission, I'm sure a lot of
 people who are unable to attend would be interested. >>

What a great idea!  

Bob Zoeller

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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:21:59 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 on clearance.

In a message dated 3/15/00 5:31:30 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
RickTipton@aol.com writes:

<< Happened to be in the local Great Train Store today, and noticed that they 
 had reduced their copy of Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide Vol 1 to $33.75.  
 Mind you, this is a key PRR reference book that's out of print and already 
 sought by the Pennsy fans who missed it, and it's being clearanced! >>

Rick,

That probably has something to do with the fact that I just heard that this 
chain of stores is going out of business.  Personally, I already have this 
vol., but I would probably havepicked up that one as a spare.

Stuart

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From: "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:22:31 -0500

Ditto!!


-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 10:17 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations


In a message dated 3/15/2000 8:47:15 AM Central Standard Time, 
jshickler@lkerie.com writes:

<< Has the society ever considered videotaping the convention
 presentations?  If they could sell the tape, along with copies of any
 charts/handouts etc. for the same price as admission, I'm sure a lot of
 people who are unable to attend would be interested. >>

What a great idea!  

Bob Zoeller

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:51:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations

RE:
----
Has the society ever considered videotaping the convention
 presentations?  If they could sell the tape, along with copies of any
 charts/handouts etc. for the same price as admission, I'm sure a lot of
 people who are unable to attend would be interested.  I hate that I'll
 miss Al Buchan's PRR in Erie presentation. :-(
 -- 
 Jerry Shickler, PRRT&HS #6288
 Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:
 http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm
---------------
This is a really great idea! Seeing as how the convention location will be the same for three years running, attendance may get a bit spotty in the second and third years, so this could be an excellant revenue source for the PRRT&HS. It would also serve as a good fill-in for those of us who can't always travel long distances at that time of the year. Think the guys in charge would go for it?
On the side, another good revenue producer for the society might be offers of specially decorated model rolling stock, as many other societies offer. Say an ECW  Z74 "business car" done up with something like "Camp Hill 2000" for the car nane. Might make a nice momento of the anuual convention. Maybe they need a few ideas to bolster revenues to insure a steady production of Keystones and other ongoing projects.
Again, a great idea from Jerry S.
Regards,
Barry Peltier





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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:52:59 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show
From: "Joseph Andrews" <joeandrews1@zdnetonebox.com>

Add my name to the list of newbies who is inclined to unsubscribe because
of the silly childish bickering that seems to be going on. I'll give
it a few more days, but if it continues, I'm gone.

-- 
Joseph Andrews
joeandrews1@zdnetonebox.com - email



---- "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Being a "newbie" to this list, I may be going out on a limb here, but
> I
> would like to add my voice to the chorus of those clamoring for an
> end to
> the personal flaming etc. that's sullying an otherwise tremendous effort
> here. I have to say I was almost scared away initially by some of what
> I
> have seen. I made a post a while ago to that effect and it was only
> a kind
> response off-list by one of the members that kept me going. I really
> appreciate the work that the Listmaster has put into maintaining this
> forum;
> God knows I couldn't even begin to do something like this. And who
> knows how
> many potential fellow "followers of the Keystone Order" (love that
> term, Mr.
> Wood) have been scared off by this.
> 
> Just my opinion, flawed as it may be.
> 
> Rick S.
> Parsippany NJ
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
> 

___________________________________________________________________
To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax,
all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com


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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:56:22 -0500
Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Stop Flame/List Wars Threads
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Folks:

I did not intend to start an on-list discussion of "This list vs. that
list". To further my intent, my original post...

...did not repeat the content in question posted repeatedly my Mr. Strassner
to his FAX lists;

...did not make any derogatory comments about Mr. Strassner nor his lists;

...did not make any comments comparing the PRR-Talk list vs. the FAX family
of lists;

...did not ask anyone to take sides.

What I did ask was for any caring subscribers of the FAX lists to contact
Mr. Strassner privately and ask him to stop discontinue his derogatory
comments on his lists. I contacted him directly, off-list, but he chose to
bring it to public light to "further his cause" via his lists. I considered
this inappropriate, unnecessary, and off-topic, as many of you have also
voiced.

Again, I did not intend to start a thread on this list about the matter and,
if you re-read my original post as well as the four items above, I do not
see how I could have done it any better.

Please discontinue this thread and those related on the PRR-Talk list.

Thank you.
--------------------------------------
Listmaster
Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
http://www.dsop.com
listmaster@dsop.com


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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:13:19 -0500

I think this is a great idea too.

Lew Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrews, Ted <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>
To: 'Bobspf@aol.com' <Bobspf@aol.com>; prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 10:29 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations


>Ditto!!
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 10:17 AM
>To: prr-talk@dsop.com
>Subject: Re: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations
>
>
>In a message dated 3/15/2000 8:47:15 AM Central Standard Time,
>jshickler@lkerie.com writes:
>
><< Has the society ever considered videotaping the convention
> presentations?  If they could sell the tape, along with copies of any
> charts/handouts etc. for the same price as admission, I'm sure a lot of
> people who are unable to attend would be interested. >>
>
>What a great idea!
>
>Bob Zoeller
>
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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:32:37 -0500

Listers,
 I too think its a good idea.  I know Jim Kelly(?) usually brings his camera
and tapes the presentations I assume for his own use.  So I don't think the
organization has a problem with video taping.  If it's done I guess you
would have to get the presenters permission to video their talk.  I know in
the forensic organization I belong to if you apply to give a paper you also
give permission for audio/video taping.

On another note to those who think that the convention may get less people
each year it repeats at Camp Hill.  I ask the following question? Are you
going to the convention because your going to railfan PRR sites or are you
going for the content of the talks?  Too me it is the content of the talks
that gets me there every year no matter where its held!

Chris Chany

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From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:50:14 -1000

Concur.  Enjoying the discussion on the PA's, but have seen way too much
bickering and not nearly enough useful information exchange going on.

Ben Hom
b.hom@worldnet.att.net

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Joseph
Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 6:53 AM
To: Rick Schoch
Cc: Richard Wallis; PRR-Talk LIST; PRR@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bill & Jerry Show


Add my name to the list of newbies who is inclined to unsubscribe because
of the silly childish bickering that seems to be going on. I'll give
it a few more days, but if it continues, I'm gone.

--
Joseph Andrews
joeandrews1@zdnetonebox.com - email



---- "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Being a "newbie" to this list, I may be going out on a limb here, but
> I would like to add my voice to the chorus of those clamoring for an
> end to the personal flaming etc. that's sullying an otherwise tremendous
effort
> here. I have to say I was almost scared away initially by some of what I
> have seen. I made a post a while ago to that effect and it was only a kind
> response off-list by one of the members that kept me going. I really
> appreciate the work that the Listmaster has put into maintaining this
> forum; God knows I couldn't even begin to do something like this. And who
> knows how many potential fellow "followers of the Keystone Order" (love
that
> term, Mr. Wood) have been scared off by this.
>
> Just my opinion, flawed as it may be.
>
> Rick S.
> Parsippany NJ



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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:54:14 -0800
From: 442 <442@pa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Amtrak derailment!!!

Jerry,

YOU started it and YOU brought to public attention.  I am NOT taking sides- 
I am calling it as I see it.

Why (even now) must you keep throwing the jabs (as found below).  Why can't 
you just ask that this thread stop, without throwing in more spam (repeats 
of your previous messages).

Sounds like YOU can't let go!

As I said before (read my lips) "I saw NOTHING about you or your list on 
the FAX lists".

Why are YOU being derogatory to further YOUR cause?

Reminds me of a saying I heard once "If you can't join 'em - bad mouth 'em".

Why don't YOU set the example and drop this thread- you sound like a 
nagging woman that must have the last word.

442






At 12:56 PM 3/15/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Folks:
>
>I did not intend to start an on-list discussion of "This list vs. that
>list". To further my intent, my original post...
>
>...did not repeat the content in question posted repeatedly my Mr. Strassner
>to his FAX lists;
>
>...did not make any derogatory comments about Mr. Strassner nor his lists;
>
>...did not make any comments comparing the PRR-Talk list vs. the FAX family
>of lists;
>
>...did not ask anyone to take sides.
>
>What I did ask was for any caring subscribers of the FAX lists to contact
>Mr. Strassner privately and ask him to stop discontinue his derogatory
>comments on his lists. I contacted him directly, off-list, but he chose to
>bring it to public light to "further his cause" via his lists. I considered
>this inappropriate, unnecessary, and off-topic, as many of you have also
>voiced.
>
>Again, I did not intend to start a thread on this list about the matter and,
>if you re-read my original post as well as the four items above, I do not
>see how I could have done it any better.
>
>Please discontinue this thread and those related on the PRR-Talk list.
>
>Thank you.
>--------------------------------------
>Listmaster
>Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
>http://www.dsop.com
>listmaster@dsop.com
>
>
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:43:09 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: [PRR] Lessons Learned

Jerry and fellow subscribers,

Appologies for this reply to Jerry's request to stop these threads.  But I
must express myself on this because I've personally been through this sort
of thing in a RR-related preservation nonprofit.  Please do not post a
response to this on this or any other list.

The absolute best thing for uninvolved persons to do in cases of criticism
of the type alluded to is to ignor them.  The responsible thing to do if
you're absolutely compelled to involve yourself in conflicts of this nature
is to contact the combatants personally with questions, viewpoints, etc.,
thus preventing divisiveness that undermines the purpose of the organization
(or, in this case, medium).  I learned this lesson the hard way and it gives
me a gas bubble in my chest to see the same symptoms happening here.

So, thank you, Jerry, for clarifying and stopping a thread that otherwise
would have gotten out of hand.  

Vagel Keller
Pittsburgh



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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:32:45 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 on clearance.



RickTipton@aol.com wrote:

> Happened to be in the local Great Train Store today, and noticed that they
> had reduced their copy of Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide Vol 1 to $33.75.
> Mind you, this is a key PRR reference book that's out of print and already
> sought by the Pennsy fans who missed it, and it's being clearanced!

You all heard?  Great Train Store went belly-up.  They will be closing a number
of stores--though not all.  Check locally to see if yours is one for some
possible deals.

Richard Wallis



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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:38:05 EST
Subject: RE: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations

Chris Chany wrote, amoung other things:
--------------
On another note to those who think that the convention may get less people
 each year it repeats at Camp Hill.  I ask the following question? Are you
 going to the convention because your going to railfan PRR sites or are you
 going for the content of the talks?  Too me it is the content of the talks that gets me there every year no matter where its held!
----------------
Chris & folks,
Well, yes, it's certainly true that the talks and presentations alone can make the convention worth while by themselves. Throw in the vendor's tables and slide shows and you can't go too far wrong.
But I do like to go also for the local envirorment and to sample different surrondings. Nice to get variety in layout tours and local hobby shops as well. I've got to cover well over 1,000 miles to Harrisburg, and I guess for me a change of location adds interest. I did enjoy the Camp Hill location before: nice accomodations and surronding area, cozy little bar, nice breakfast buffet and cafe. I just don't think three years in a row at a setting I've been to before is the best option for me. But the locale is not a subject that's open to discussion in any event, so I guess the point is moot.
Regards,
Barry Peltier
 


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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:54:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Stop Flame/List Wars Threads
From: "Eugene Nowlan" <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>

One of the first rule of conduct that Amateur Radio operators learn is to 
treat the obnoxious operator with silence.  To discontinue a thread- ask for
it to stop and make no further comment that people might respond to.

But on a related topic. Why don't lists (this one in particular) require
people to use legitimate names and filter those that send spam like the
alias "442" just did?

What is the purpose of using names like "LINESWEST" or "442" to name just
two?  This is not a CB environment so why use a cute handle?


--

Eugene Nowlan
Corning, NY USA
<ENowlan@stny.rr.com>

----------
>From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
>To: PRR-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
>Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Stop Flame/List Wars Threads
>Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000, 12:56 PM
>

> Folks:
>
> I did not intend to start an on-list discussion of "This list vs. that
> list". To further my intent, my original post...
>
> ...did not repeat the content in question posted repeatedly my Mr. Strassner
> to his FAX lists;
>
> ...did not make any derogatory comments about Mr. Strassner nor his lists;
>
> ...did not make any comments comparing the PRR-Talk list vs. the FAX family
> of lists;
>
> ...did not ask anyone to take sides.
>
> What I did ask was for any caring subscribers of the FAX lists to contact
> Mr. Strassner privately and ask him to stop discontinue his derogatory
> comments on his lists. I contacted him directly, off-list, but he chose to
> bring it to public light to "further his cause" via his lists. I considered
> this inappropriate, unnecessary, and off-topic, as many of you have also
> voiced.
>
> Again, I did not intend to start a thread on this list about the matter and,
> if you re-read my original post as well as the four items above, I do not
> see how I could have done it any better.
>
> Please discontinue this thread and those related on the PRR-Talk list.
>
> Thank you.
> --------------------------------------
> Listmaster
> Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
> http://www.dsop.com
> listmaster@dsop.com
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:27:14 -0500
From: jpbtrans <jpbtrans@gateway.net>
Subject: [PRR] Peoria

I thank all that have tried to steer me in the right direction on this
subject. If I have it straight, the PRR coming into Peoria was on
trackage rights on the NKP starting from Farmdale Jct. I was told that
at some point, the PRR then changed to P+PU trackage. Where was that
point, and once on the P+PU did the PRR share facilities with the P+PU
or did they have their own yard and passenger station? Where the PRR met
the P+PU, was there a tower? Whos'? Any info on the Passenger station?
Thanks for the help!!

Jon Anderson

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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:23:28 -0800
From: 442 <442@pa.net>
Subject: [PRR] King of nonsense?

Dear Eugene (if that is your real name),

That is a dumb question.  Anyone with half a brain knows that you DO NOT 
give out personal info to someone you do not know personally, especially on 
the internet.

How do I know that your real name isn't John Smith?

Is that the best gripe you can come up with about my posts! It goes to show 
your caliber.

If you're going to complain about the way I sign my posts you better start 
complaining about the railnuts out there that sign with CSX4409, CR4022 or 
something similar.  Who appointed you email police?  You have the nerve to 
complain about the triviality of the way someone signs their posts, I'd 
hate to see you handle a REAL problem.

You call 2 maybe 3 posts SPAM?  Boy I would hate to see you if you really 
got spammed.

And what gives YOU the right to blast me and lineswest in front of the 
world. Are YOU god or do you think youre god?

GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

442



At 03:41 PM 3/15/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for spamming the list with your nonsense. Why don't you have the
>fortitude to sign your name.  442 $$@!
>--
>
>Eugene Nowlan
>Corning, NY USA
><ENowlan@stny.rr.com>
>
>----------
> >From: 442 <442@pa.net>
> >To: jerry@pennsyrr.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PRR@onelist.com
> >Subject: [PRR] Amtrak derailment!!!
> >Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000, 4:54 PM
> >
>
> > Jerry,
> >
> > YOU started it and YOU brought to public attention.  I am NOT taking sides-
> > I am calling it as I see it.
> >
> > Why (even now) must you keep throwing the jabs (as found below).  Why can't
> > you just ask that this thread stop, without throwing in more spam (repeats
> > of your previous messages).
> >
> > Sounds like YOU can't let go!
> >
> > As I said before (read my lips) "I saw NOTHING about you or your list on
> > the FAX lists".
> >
> > Why are YOU being derogatory to further YOUR cause?
> >
> > Reminds me of a saying I heard once "If you can't join 'em - bad mouth 
> 'em".
> >
> > Why don't YOU set the example and drop this thread- you sound like a
> > nagging woman that must have the last word.
> >
> > 442
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 12:56 PM 3/15/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >>Folks:
> >>
> >>I did not intend to start an on-list discussion of "This list vs. that
> >>list". To further my intent, my original post...
> >>
> >>...did not repeat the content in question posted repeatedly my Mr. 
> Strassner
> >>to his FAX lists;
> >>
> >>...did not make any derogatory comments about Mr. Strassner nor his lists;
> >>
> >>...did not make any comments comparing the PRR-Talk list vs. the FAX family
> >>of lists;
> >>
> >>...did not ask anyone to take sides.
> >>
> >>What I did ask was for any caring subscribers of the FAX lists to contact
> >>Mr. Strassner privately and ask him to stop discontinue his derogatory
> >>comments on his lists. I contacted him directly, off-list, but he chose to
> >>bring it to public light to "further his cause" via his lists. I considered
> >>this inappropriate, unnecessary, and off-topic, as many of you have also
> >>voiced.
> >>
> >>Again, I did not intend to start a thread on this list about the matter 
> and,
> >>if you re-read my original post as well as the four items above, I do not
> >>see how I could have done it any better.
> >>
> >>Please discontinue this thread and those related on the PRR-Talk list.
> >>
> >>Thank you.
> >>--------------------------------------
> >>Listmaster
> >>Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
> >>http://www.dsop.com
> >>listmaster@dsop.com
> >>
> >>
> >>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
> >
> >
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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 F-3's
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:04:44 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF8EA0.8FE4A0A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, everybody! Anyone have any imput and ideas in making the F-3's from =
L-Like a little more prototypical in appearance. At the least...some =
diaphrams and Kadee's that will allow them to run closer together. I'm =
going to go back to all my materials to look at other details. Also, did =
the PRR add lift rings to the A units? Regards, Bob

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF8EA0.8FE4A0A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi, everybody! Anyone have any imput and ideas in =
making the=20
F-3's from L-Like a little more prototypical in appearance. At the =
least...some=20
diaphrams and Kadee's that will allow them to run closer together. I'm =
going to=20
go back to all my materials to look at other details. Also, did the PRR =
add lift=20
rings to the A units? Regards, Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF8EA0.8FE4A0A0--


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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:10:51 -0600
From: John Sheets <johnit@interaccess.com>
Subject: [PRR] RE: PA's in Chicago

It's not Chicago, but what better place than the Curve, ppg 149-151 of Don
Ball's The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-a950's, on Mail #9 with a GP helper

Also single unit in Pasenger Red at East Altoona pg 140; teo green units of
freight at North Philadelphia pg 62; two red units on a NY&LB local at Raritan
ppg 51, 54

John

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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:10:41 -0500
From: Casimer P Zakrzewski <zak@acadia.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak derailment!!!

Hello, all.
Okay, I think this is probably the most inane thing
I've seen on a lot of nets...even the Linux nets which
spend most of their time denigrating 'doze and not
performing any useful function.
(I use both 'doze *and* Linux.)
This reply of mine is being sent...well everyone can
read the Subject line.  I seldom attach a copy of the
original message, but this time I shall.
I find *nothing* in the original message dealing with
Amtrak derailment.
I have stated in the past that I am just a 'lurker' for
the most part, trying to pick up hints about the PRR. 
Sadly, this net, step by step, is wandering away from
PRR - either prototype or modeling!
If anyone reading this doesn't believe me, check the
percentage of e-mail on PRR-Talk concerning those items
in the past two months.
The people (one who has complained) who do want valid
information can't seem to get it.
It would seem prudent that those who wish to engage in
an e-mail urination contest set up their own little
net, whereby they can yak at each other until fully
sated.
Just give the rest of us a break, okay?
Zak

442 wrote:
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> YOU started it and YOU brought to public attention.  I am NOT taking sides-
> I am calling it as I see it.
> 
> Why (even now) must you keep throwing the jabs (as found below).  Why can't
> you just ask that this thread stop, without throwing in more spam (repeats
> of your previous messages).
> 
> Sounds like YOU can't let go!
> 
> As I said before (read my lips) "I saw NOTHING about you or your list on
> the FAX lists".
> 
> Why are YOU being derogatory to further YOUR cause?
> 
> Reminds me of a saying I heard once "If you can't join 'em - bad mouth 'em".
> 
> Why don't YOU set the example and drop this thread- you sound like a
> nagging woman that must have the last word.
> 
> 442
> 
> At 12:56 PM 3/15/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >Folks:
> >
> >I did not intend to start an on-list discussion of "This list vs. that
> >list". To further my intent, my original post...
> >
> >...did not repeat the content in question posted repeatedly my Mr. Strassner
> >to his FAX lists;
> >
> >...did not make any derogatory comments about Mr. Strassner nor his lists;
> >
> >...did not make any comments comparing the PRR-Talk list vs. the FAX family
> >of lists;
> >
> >...did not ask anyone to take sides.
> >
> >What I did ask was for any caring subscribers of the FAX lists to contact
> >Mr. Strassner privately and ask him to stop discontinue his derogatory
> >comments on his lists. I contacted him directly, off-list, but he chose to
> >bring it to public light to "further his cause" via his lists. I considered
> >this inappropriate, unnecessary, and off-topic, as many of you have also
> >voiced.
> >
> >Again, I did not intend to start a thread on this list about the matter and,
> >if you re-read my original post as well as the four items above, I do not
> >see how I could have done it any better.
> >
> >Please discontinue this thread and those related on the PRR-Talk list.
> >
> >Thank you.
> >--------------------------------------
> >Listmaster
> >Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
> >http://www.dsop.com
> >listmaster@dsop.com
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
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> 
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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:12:56 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 F-3's

>From what I have seen of Pennsy F units, I believe only the FP7 dual service 
units had the lift rings as did all the E-units. I don't believe any of the F 
unit freighters had them. I could be wrong. If proven so, I stand corrected.

Jim Mancuso

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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:15:18 EST
Subject: [PRR] Great American Train Stores - on clearance.

In a message dated 3/15/00 7:31:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
RickTipton@aol.com writes:

<< Happened to be in the local Great Train Store today, and noticed that they 
 had reduced their copy of Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 to $33.75.  
 Mind you, this is a key PRR reference book that's out of print and already 
 sought by the Pennsy fans who missed it, and it's being clearanced!
  >>

    There is probably more to the "clearance" than you might expect - Great 
American Train Stores, usually avoided by serious Train people because they 
normally sell at 100 to 125% of MSRP, filed for Chapter 11 protection on 
Monday, March 6. 10 of the 29 stores, almost exclusively at "upscale" malls, 
are to be closed.
    Depending on what you looked at, on the way to the "way back" where the 
books are, you may have noticed a serious lack of actual trains. MTH shut 
them off a long time ago and "word" is they stuck Lionel for quite a bit.
    One nice book set, in the front of the store, is a kids story about the 
PRR Torpedo and the 1939 World's Fair. In common with many rail books written 
by non railroaders, the book takes a few liberties with the facts. 
    There is a nice, and fairly accurate painting of the K-4 Torpedo 
suspended in the erection shops, above a standard K-4, the book describes the 
building as a "hanger" Is it possible that the word "erection" is not to be 
used in children's books?
    As the story progresses the Torpedo is described as being Blue. While 
serious Pennsy fans have debated the actual color of that K-4, blue is not 
one of the colors I've ever heard defended, and goes on to combine the 
Torpedo K-4 with the S-1, on display at the Fair, while giving one of the 
kids credit for the invention of the dome car - which they will ride in their 
next adventure - on the Espee. (In book one, they rescued "The President 
Washington" on the Beano RR)
    The "set" comes with a battery operated, blue, 6100 loco, a book and a 
tape: great for young readers as they can follow along. Sold at "GTS" for 
$29.95 and at your neighborhood hobby shops for $24.00 or less....... Great 
way to pass the "love of trains"

Dick Ross
Cleveland

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:37:00 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Great American Train Stores - on clearance.

Dick,
You didn't happen to notice which stores were to be closed and which to stay 
open, did you? The only two I've been in were doing steady business, and I 
would actually miss the one in Washington Union Station. Been a few years 
since I was there, but it was something to do between trains.
The other one, here in the Twin Cities own Largest Mall In The World (ug!), 
the Mall of America, seems to sell steadily as well. With over a hundred 
thousand people a day wandering through the mall from all over heck, there's 
always a few that don't know prices and want some cutsey train trinket. Only 
been there once, but their supply of books was good, and once in a blue moon 
they have a special.
Just curious.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:49:42 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Peoria



jpbtrans wrote:

>  I was told that
> at some point, the PRR then changed to P+PU trackage. Where was that
> point, and once on the P+PU did the PRR share facilities with the P+PU
> or did they have their own yard and passenger station? Where the PRR met
> the P+PU, was there a tower? Whos'? Any info on the Passenger station?

They tole you wrong, son.  The PRR (and the Pan Handle, Vandalia and TH&P
before it) utilized the P&PU for terminal facilities in East Peoria and
Peoria, as did practically every other road entering the vicinity.  The
Peoria Union Freight Terminal and Peoria Union (passenger) Station were
always the PRR's terminals.  To my knowledge, the PRR (TH&P, later Penndel)
did not own anything west of Farmdale.

There was a P&PU tower at Washington Street in E.P., which was the remote
control point for Farmdale Jct. after Farmdale (FD) closed.

Richard Wallis


P.S.--Jon, if you're digging around the Peoria area, I am still in need of
info on exactly when the deal took effect (1966-67) between the PRR and IT
which swapped the use of IT's track by PRR between Allentown and East
Morton, and the use of PRR (plus its trackage rights into E.P. for the IT's
old Caldwell Hill route west of Morton.  (Use of PRR by IT within Morton
took effect at end of 1955.)


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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:51:48 EST
Subject: [PRR] What In the Hxxx Is Going On Here?

Jerry and other Pennsy Folks,
What is going on here today? This list is beginning to sound like the 
'issues" message boards here on AOL where everyone has at each other, no 
holds barred. Up till very recently the tone on this list, and yes, FAX, has 
been quite mild and almost mellow. I been around a bit, and can handle a 
little rough and tumble in a sporting way ..but, .after all, we're all 
supposed to be on the same side here. We gotta keep this place civilized or a 
lot of us are going to bail.
How about it guys, before we start making enemies over a few words? 
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:56:13 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 F-3's

In a message dated 3/15/2000 4:10:43 PM Central Standard Time, 
rholden@superpa.net writes:

<< Also, did the PRR add lift rings to the A units?  >>

Yup.

Bob Zoeller

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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:00:48 EST
Subject: [PRR] Wilmington Station

Hi Guys - First of all let me thank you for your interest in Colossus which 
by now you all know is the station at Wilmington, DE. I will try to post a 
picture of part of the actual wall on our website this weekend. To all of you 
who have emailed us. We have not yet set a price. Your best bet is to see 
Jerry or your local dealer. Our first run will be special. We are only 
allowing our dealers 3 complete units of this run and except for members of 
the Trainstuff family dealers orders will be filled on a first come first 
served basis. This is a big kit and will be released in sections. So if you 
are interested get your order in soon. And for those of you who have been 
trying to guess offline. Hope you had as much fun as I did. Dayna

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:05:08 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 F-3's

In a message dated 3/15/2000 4:22:37 PM Central Standard Time, 
GenJim833@aol.com writes:

<< From what I have seen of Pennsy F units, I believe only the FP7 dual 
service 
 units had the lift rings as did all the E-units. I don't believe any of the 
F 
 unit freighters had them. I could be wrong. If proven so, I stand corrected.
  >>
JIm, the photos of both the F3s and F7s in Pennsy Power II show lift rings 
added.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:06:08 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] What In the Hxxx Is Going On Here?


Well said Barry.  If this doesn't end real soo, we're going to have to cancel any
type of actual get-togethers, like the PRRT&HS convention.  Otherwise, some
bodies might get kilt :-).

Seriously.  Cut it out.  We're the LOVE generation, remember?

Richard Wallis


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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:10:48 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak derailment!!!

In a message dated 3/15/00 2:00:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 442@pa.net 
writes:

<< nagging woman >>

Okay guys - I can put up with you arguing where tracks go or who's the most 
knowledgeable or even what color is Brunswick green but at least lets keep it 
gender friendly. I resemble that remark ;-) Dayna

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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:13:27 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Peoria

Jon:

Oops.  They didn't tell you wrong.  I misread what you were asking.

Richard


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Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1980 18:20:14 -0500
From: "Earl T. Hackett" <hacketet@delaware.infi.net>
Subject: [PRR] Wilmington, Delaware waterfront operations

Back when I was doing research on the Wilmington station I got interested
in the waterfront freight operations.  I got copies of the 1920 valuation
maps from the National Archives, digitized them (manually), and put them
all into a single CAD file.  I originally thought I'd write an article
about the area for Mainline Modeler, but found there were a lot of other
things I wanted to do.  I saw in the archives that someone was interested
in modeling that area.  I think it would be impossible for an individual to
do it because all of the track is custom designed, VERY complicated, and
would have to be hand laid.  A dedicated club might pull it off.  If
someone is interested in checking out these drawings, I can send them as a
.dxf file attachment.  This is a BIG file and could possibly take an hour
to download.  You will require a 3D CAD program to view it.  

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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:30:57 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] What In the Hxxx Is Going On Here?

In a message dated 3/15/00 3:56:24 PM Mountain Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com 
writes:

<< We gotta keep this place civilized or a 
 lot of us are going to bail. >>

I most certainly agree.

Stuart

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From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto 1000 F-3's
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:34:17 -1000

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF8F4C.54103CE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As luck would have it, I'm working on detailing a set of Athearn F7s and
have my F-Unit references handy..  Some suggestions:

General:  Kadees and diaphragms are a good start.  American Limited parts
(147-9900) makes sets for both Athearn and Stewart units; Larry Puckett used
a Stewart set for an SAL F3 in the April 2000 MR.

PRR specific details:  A quick look through Pennsy Diesel Years (Vol 1)
revealed that nose lift rings were a common sight on all classes of PRR EMD
cab "A" units.  (Cal Scale 190-415 or Detail Associates LR 1102).  Cal Scale
has an F Unit antenna kit (190-402), or you can use the Utah Pacific 755-91
or 755-92.  Pennsy F Units were delivered with the "Passenger Pilot" instead
of the EMD standard freight pilot - Cal Scale 190-442 or Detail Associates
SY 2214.  Use the Cal Scale part if you can get it, and be careful taking
off the cast on pilot, as it is a lot easier to cut short of the anticlimber
and file to it than to try to add material back (hard won experience here!).

Specific photos:

PDY Vol 1, p. 38: PRR 9251, Enola, 6/16/62 (Bill Volkmer)
PDY Vol 1, p. 52: PRR 9516, on BF4 south of Sunbury, 3/30/57 (Bob
Makinowski)

Hope this helps.  Let me know off-list if you want to swap more notes.

Ben Hom
b.hom@worlnet.att.net


  -----Original Message-----
  From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of rholden
  Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 12:05 PM
  To: prr-talk@dsop.com
  Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 F-3's


  Hi, everybody! Anyone have any imput and ideas in making the F-3's from
L-Like a little more prototypical in appearance. At the least...some
diaphrams and Kadee's that will allow them to run closer together. I'm going
to go back to all my materials to look at other details. Also, did the PRR
add lift rings to the A units? Regards, Bob

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF8F4C.54103CE0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D710405622-16032000>As luck=20
would have it, I'm working on detailing a set of Athearn F7s and have my =
F-Unit=20
references handy..&nbsp; Some suggestions:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D710405622-16032000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D710405622-16032000>General:&nbsp; Kadees and diaphragms are a =
good=20
start.&nbsp;&nbsp;American Limited parts (147-9900) makes sets for both =
Athearn=20
and Stewart units; Larry Puckett used a Stewart set for an SAL F3 in the =
April=20
2000 MR.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D710405622-16032000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D710405622-16032000>PRR specific=20
details:&nbsp; A quick look through Pennsy Diesel Years (Vol 1) revealed =
that=20
nose lift rings were a common sight on all classes of PRR EMD cab "A"=20
units.&nbsp; (Cal Scale 190-415 or Detail Associates LR 1102).&nbsp; Cal =
Scale=20
has an F Unit antenna kit (190-402), or you can use the Utah Pacific =
755-91 or=20
755-92.&nbsp; Pennsy F Units were delivered with the "Passenger Pilot" =
instead=20
of the EMD standard freight pilot - Cal Scale 190-442 or Detail =
Associates SY=20
2214.&nbsp; Use the Cal Scale part if you can get it, and be careful =
taking off=20
the cast on pilot, as it is a lot easier to cut short of the anticlimber =
and=20
file to it than to try to add&nbsp;material back (hard won experience=20
here!).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D710405622-16032000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D710405622-16032000>Specific=20
photos:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D710405622-16032000>PDY Vol 1,=20
p. 38: PRR 9251, Enola, 6/16/62 (Bill Volkmer)</SPAN></FONT></DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D710405622-16032000>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D710405622-16032000>PDY Vol 1,=20
p. 52: PRR 9516, on BF4 south of Sunbury, 3/30/57 (Bob=20
Makinowski)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D710405622-16032000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D710405622-16032000>Hope this=20
helps.&nbsp; Let me know off-list if you want to swap more=20
notes.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D710405622-16032000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D710405622-16032000>Ben=20
Hom</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D710405622-16032000><A=20
href=3D"mailto:b.hom@worlnet.att.net">b.hom@worlnet.att.net</A></SPAN></F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New"><FONT size=3D2>
<DIV>&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
  [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>rholden<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
  Wednesday, March 15, 2000 12:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  prr-talk@dsop.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [PRR] Proto 1000=20
  F-3's<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi, everybody! Anyone have any imput and ideas in =
making the=20
  F-3's from L-Like a little more prototypical in appearance. At the=20
  least...some diaphrams and Kadee's that will allow them to run closer=20
  together. I'm going to go back to all my materials to look at other =
details.=20
  Also, did the PRR add lift rings to the A units? Regards,=20
Bob</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF8F4C.54103CE0--


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From: Huber25@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:32:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] What In the Hxxx Is Going On Here?

Hi, Guys.

I've been a subscriber to the PRR list for quite some time and have joined 2 
other lists in the past few weeks. I have generally enjoyed the discussions 
on this list. Lately, though the discussions have gotten nasty and started 
pointing fingers and grumbling. The fun discussions and qestion/answer part 
has been replaced by ugliness towards each other. Why don't those 
dissatisfied with someone or something take their beefs to the personal email 
level and let us alone to enjoy each other's company for the intended purpose 
of these lists? Don't we come here to escape the hassles of work and everyday 
life? Let's leave the ugliness out of these lists. Everyone has a personal 
opinion about everything nut if you disagree with someone there's no need to 
get personal here. If you don't like the topic....just page on through.

My 2˘
Roger

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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:56:59 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Great American Train Stores - on clearance.

In a message dated 3/15/00 5:46:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com 
writes:

<< You didn't happen to notice which stores were to be closed and which to 
stay  open, did you?  >>

Sorry - I didn't get that info. Store here in Cleveland is in "Tower City" 
the former Cleveland Union Terminal concourse, which has been tastefully 
converted to retail while retaining the flavor of the old Terminal, with RTA 
light and heavy rail traction still squealing through the lower level

Dick Ross
Cleveland

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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:04:46 -0500
From: Phil Tripician <trip7687@gate.net>
Subject: [PRR] New e-mail address

  My new e-mail address is ptripician @ adelphia.net

       Thanks,

       Phil Tripician


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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:16:00 -0500
From: 442 <442@mail.pa.net>
Subject: [PRR] topo maps from feds, links to states

Follow the link below to a semi-short list of links to topo maps from 
certain states.

http://www.fgdc.gov/stakeholders/partnerships/partrost.html

c ya
442

PS still looking for MD


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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:17:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] topo maps from feds, links to states

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, 442 wrote:

> Follow the link below to a semi-short list of links to topo maps from 
> certain states.
> 
> http://www.fgdc.gov/stakeholders/partnerships/partrost.html
> 
> c ya
> 442
> 
> PS still looking for MD

Look at the site I posted last week, namely:
http://216.36.33.21/~mgreger/GIS

You will find pointers to maps covering all of Maryland.

The only Pennsy territory not covered by free maps linked from here are
the northern half of Indiana, and pretty much all of Michigan. NY, PA, OH,
NJ, DE, MD, IL, and at least the relevant parts of VA, MO and KY are
covered. If I could find a library with the missing maps, I'd gladly drive
there, copy the CDs and upload them to Mr. Greger's site....

-D



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From: "Andy Cich" <ajc5150@net66.com>
Subject: [PRR] New Bowser H-21 Paint Schemes
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:44:40 -0600

Bowser has announced 11 new paint schemes for the H-21 w/clamshell doors.
They are for non-PRR roads and private owners.  Photos are on their website.
They are:

Berth Coal
Donora Southern
Erie
B&O
Bethlehem Mines
Fairport, Painesville, & Eastern
Rainey Wood Coke Co.
Alcoa Ore Co.
Republic Iron & Steel
Youngstown Sheet & Tube
Davies Steel

My question is: Which of these are prototypical?

The Davies is named after Dean Freitag's free lance RR, and is fictitious.

Westerfield's data sheet lists Bethlehem mines as a known owner.  It also
lists a Bertha, but not a Berth.

The data sheet lists Republic and Rainey as possible owners.  It also says
some cars were sold to the B&O.

The Alcoa car is lettered as if it is constructed from aluminum.  Was there
ever such a thing as an aluminum H-21?

What about Donora Sou, Fairport, and Youngstown?

And did the Erie ever own any H-21's?

So by my count we have 5 prototypical, 1 fictitious, and 5 question marks.
Can anybody clear up any of the question marks?


Thanks,

Andy


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From: WAyersRR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:02:42 EST
Subject: Re:  [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations

I think this is a supurb idea!! As a member of one of my professional 
organizations which holds an annual convention, I am unable to attend every 
year. To the benefit of all, one of my colleages is a video hobbiest and 
tapes all lectures and other informal presentations. He edits them and sells 
them along with any and all handouts for a reasonable price. I have purchaced 
tapes of missed lectures as well as some that I have attended. I live in Iowa 
and getting to the convention is near impossible. Videos are NOT a substitute 
for attending, as you miss out on one of the best parts of the convention: 
meeting new friends and visiting with old friends. If this is at all a 
possibility, I urge you to give it a try.

Bill Ayers


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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 00:39:47 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 F-3's

Bob,

How much effort are you willing to put into these little gems? 

First I want to refer you to a back issue of Diesel Era, issue Nov./Dec. 93.  
If you transition era modelers out there don't have this issue, GET IT!  It 
has the first article I ever remember seeing with the late Jack Hahn's work 
spotlighted.  GREAT STUFF!  Paul Withers and Dan Cupper blessed us when they 
brought this mans photo's to print!  On page 26, there is a FANATIC shot of 
9500A and 9507A back to back in Ebenezer, NY on 9/2/56 (the day after my wife 
was born...sssshhhhhh!!!!  don't tell her you heard it from me... ) all 
shinny and ready to notch up.  I have a copy of this photo for to support my 
article coming up on the upgrade of the LL P2K units. 

Back to my original question how much work are you willing to do because I 
can give you the basics: Cal Scale 4 digit number boards, Cal Scale Modified 
enclosed coupler pilot (PRR Style), Antenna mast--Cal Scale, Detail Assoc. 
nose mount lift rings, American Limited diaphragms.  That is the bare bone 
version and the level to which I will take this is going to cost me at least 
another $25.900 or more in parts and about 2 more months of research.  This 
phase of the F-3 just happens to be one of my favorite.  I can take this a 
bit deeper off line if you wish or keep it online depending...

Greg Martin   

<< Hi, everybody! Anyone have any input and ideas in making the F-3's from 
LL-P1K a little more prototypical in appearance. At the least...some 
diaphragms and Kadee's that will allow them to run closer together. I'm going 
to go back to all my materials to look at other details. Also, did the PRR 
add lift rings to the A units? Regards, Bob
  >>

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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:05:54 -0500
From: Phil Tripician <trip7687@gate.net>
Subject: [PRR] e-mail address change

Please change my e-mail address to ptripician@adelphia.net

Thanks,

Phil

PRR-Talk wrote:

> PRR-Talk Digest - Monday, February 21, 2000
>
>   PRR Trucks
>           by "Rail Classics" <railclassics@psn.net>
>   PRR H2a Hopper
>           by "Rail Classics" <railclassics@psn.net>
>   Re: [PRR] PRR H2a Hopper
>           by <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
>   Re: [PRR] PRR H2a Hopper
>           by <FarbLand@aol.com>
>   Funaro & Camerlengo kits
>           by "Fred G Rea" <fredrea@juno.com>
>   Re: [PRR] Funaro & Camerlengo kits
>           by "Stephen Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>
>   Re: [PRR] passenger pilots
>           by "Stephen Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: PRR Trucks
> From: "Rail Classics" <railclassics@psn.net>
> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 04:24:14 -0500
>
> Hello List;
>
> When our X-40 project arrives in July, we have decided to also offer extra
> 2D-F26 and 2D-F26a trucks. In addition, at that time we will have available
> again the 2D-P5 trucks in Friction Bearing, Roller Bearing and Hyatt Roller
> Bearing.
>
> EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS
> www.railclassics.com
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: PRR H2a Hopper
> From: "Rail Classics" <railclassics@psn.net>
> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 04:28:32 -0500
>
> Hello List;
>
> We are looking for info on the H2a Hoppers that the PRR had in the mid
> 1950's. Anybody have photos or other material on this class.
>
> Thanks,
> EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS
> www.railclassics.com
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR H2a Hopper
> From: <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:58:12 EST
>
> Eddy:
>
> These were leased from the N&W and are the identical car to the N&W H2a
> hoppers.  Several years ago there was an extensive article in the N&W
> Historical Society magazine about these cars.  The society has most of the
> information you will need and you could also market these to N&W modelers.
>
> Rich Orr
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR H2a Hopper
> From: <FarbLand@aol.com>
> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:59:18 EST
>
> In a message dated 2/20/00 10:05:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> SUVCWORR@aol.com writes:
>
> > These were leased from the N&W and are the identical car to the N&W H2a
> >  hoppers.  Several years ago there was an extensive article in the N&W
> >  Historical Society magazine about these cars.  The society has most of the
> >  information you will need and you could also market these to N&W modelers.
> >
> >  Rich Orr
> The H2a was also included in the PRR Hopper series by John Techmoieler (sp)
> in Model railroading a few years back it should also be in the forthcomming
> book. I believe he modeled an H2a by kitbashing the Roundhouse 3 bay hopper.
> As an aside I have been thinking recenly tht I needed to add a few other PRR
> hoppers to my fleet besides H21a's H31, Gla H22a's and others currently
> available in plastic. The H39's and H43's are too modern for my August 1957
> layout.  So I would definately purchase a few H2a, H35, H36, class cars in
> Brass.
> Regards Brian J carlson
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Funaro & Camerlengo kits
> From: "Fred G Rea" <fredrea@juno.com>
> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:12:51 EST
>
> I have been noticing the line of F&C kits in the Walthers catalog.  Many
> nice looking PRR cars including a variety of gons.  Does anyone on th
> list have any experience with these kits?  I assume the styro-urethane
> castings make them similar to resin kits.  At these prices I would want
> to be sure I have a decent chance of getting  nice looking cars for the
> time and money invested.
>
> Any comments?
>
> Fred Rea
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Funaro & Camerlengo kits
> From: "Stephen Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>
> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:46:38 -0800
>
> Fred--I am very experienced with Westerfield and Sunshine kits.  The
> only F & C kit I have attempted is the H31 covered hopper.  Very
> disappointed in the basic castings.  I will stay away from them unless
> someone can prove they have mended their ways.
>
> Steve Hoxie
> Pensacola FL
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] passenger pilots
> From: "Stephen Hoxie" <steveh@dotstar.net>
> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:53:39 -0800
>
> Greg, Jim, and Andrew--I am on the side that says the P2K E7 and E8
> pilots are inaccurate for PRR engines.  I know some roads had pilots
> like the models, but not the PRR.  When you look at the model from the
> side, in profile, with the stock pilot there is a very distinctive
> "buck tooth" appearance as the pilot slopes out in front too much.
> The appearance would be much more accurate if they had just continued
> the angle made by the front of ther nose.
>
> The IM pilot is the neatest thing since CalScale started making
> antenna sets.  High compliment:  they got it right.
>
> Steve Hoxie
> Pensacola FL
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> End of PRR-Talk Digest
>
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Paul Stumpff <urr304@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] New Bowser H-21 Paint Schemes
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:39:34 -0500

Andy:
I will check if there is any data on FP&E rolling stock. I did get some interesting info Tuesday night in conversation with a retired NKP/N&W engineman on FP&E. Seems PRR had some financial dealings with line since intent was to build from Perry, Ohio to Austinburg to connect to PY&A;therefore allowing PRR access to Fairport Harbor. Actual line was built to Unionville after crossing NKP at Perry. ROW still seen where it crossed Ohio Rt.84. Possible that FP&E needed some rolling stock for online business with two quarries in Unionville vicinity. Operations were scaled back to Perry at beginning of WWII.
Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio]

-----Original Message-----
From:	Andy Cich [SMTP:ajc5150@net66.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, March 15, 2000 10:45 PM
To:	Prr-talk
Subject:	[PRR] New Bowser H-21 Paint Schemes

Bowser has announced 11 new paint schemes for the H-21 w/clamshell doors.
They are for non-PRR roads and private owners.  Photos are on their website.
They are:

Berth Coal
Donora Southern
Erie
B&O
Bethlehem Mines
Fairport, Painesville, & Eastern
Rainey Wood Coke Co.
Alcoa Ore Co.
Republic Iron & Steel
Youngstown Sheet & Tube
Davies Steel

My question is: Which of these are prototypical?
[]  ... 

Thanks,

Andy



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 04:09:37 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] Looking for Bill26860

Back in November and December I exchanged some e-mail
with Bill26860@aol.com, who used to be on this list.
Yesterday I had some additional info, sent it there,
it bounced.

Hey Bill, you out there under a new address?

=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: Prr1187@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:09:06 EST
Subject: RE: [PRR] Videotaping convention presentations

There have been a number of people videotaping including myself.  Jim Kelly obtained a copy of one of my videos for a program he missed.

Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS 1974



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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:42:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Peoria/M&StL Interchange

Richard & folks,
I always find the more obscure western and northern reachs of the Pennsy interesting, especially when they involve connections with other railroads of interest. In this case it would be "the Peoria Gateway", the M&StL, a colorful line not much known outside of it's own neighborhood. But the 'Louie' ran a pair of very fast freights, #'s 19 and 20, between Minneapolis and Peoria, and was something of a contender for Chicago-bypass traffic.These freights, carded first class, left Cedar Lake Yard in MPLS about breakfast time and made Peoria in time for interchange ahead of per diem charges. Not bad, considering the distance was almost as great as Chicago to Buffalo, NY. The M&StL had a modest yard and engine facility on the west side of the Peoria area.
     Anyway, I was wondering how interchange was handled with Pennsy. I know the NYC (P&E) was Louie's big connection, but the Keystone line had to account for something. Were there direct transfer runs between lines, or was most everything handed over to P&PU, ala MT in the Twin Cities? In other words, was there a "Clearing Yard" in Peoria? M&StL ran some transfers, but I don't know if they went direct to other lines or to a P&PU yard. Any ideas?
Regards,
Barry Peltier



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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:04:59 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re: Peoria interchange on PRR

Barry & List:

I know this sounds subversive, but I don't think the PRR did much of an
interchange business, if any, at Peoria.  The Louie probably
interchanged with the TP&W and P&E via Pekin.

The PRR's Peoria Branch simply was not set up for overhead business.
Track conditions, both in bridge strength and rail weight, was extremely
light, and operationally, there was not much traffic.  I doubt very much
if the PRR did much business period west of Decatur.  The preferred
route was via the TP&W and Effner; much better physically, and with a
faster set diverging PRR routes at Logansport.  In other words, put no
bets on the Peoria branch.

Richard Wallis


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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:30:10 -0500
From: Drew McGhee <drm6@psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Peoria interchange on PRR

Barry, Richard and the group,

One way to track down PRR interchanges is to use an _Official Guide..._ to
cross reference an interchange location between the two railroads involved.
Sometimes one railroad will list a location as an interchange point with,
let's say the PRR. However, the PRR might not consider that an interchage
point to that railroad. The PRR would probably just pick up from that RR at
that location but not set anything out. To confirm a two-way interchange,
see that the location is listed as an interchange for both RRs. 

Case in point, The Bellefonte Central had an interchange with the PRR at
Tyrone. The PRR didn't consider Tyrone an interchange point with the
Bellefonte Central. Cars that the PRR had for the Bellefonte Central were
turned over to them at Bellefonte and not Tyrone although the Bellefonte
Central would forward cars to the PRR at both Tyrone and Bellefonte. Do to
lack of traffic, the connection at Tyrone was abandanded early. The 'half
bridge' just southeast of Tyrone on PA Route 45 was part of the Bellefonte
Central line into Tyrone.

Drew R. McGhee
Altoona, PA
drm6@psu.edu
http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/

At 01:04 PM 03/16/2000 -0600, Richard Wallis wrote:
>Barry & List:
>
>I know this sounds subversive, but I don't think the PRR did much of an
>interchange business, if any, at Peoria.  The Louie probably
>interchanged with the TP&W and P&E via Pekin.
>
>The PRR's Peoria Branch simply was not set up for overhead business.
>Track conditions, both in bridge strength and rail weight, was extremely
>light, and operationally, there was not much traffic.  I doubt very much
>if the PRR did much business period west of Decatur.  The preferred
>route was via the TP&W and Effner; much better physically, and with a
>faster set diverging PRR routes at Logansport.  In other words, put no
>bets on the Peoria branch.
>
>Richard Wallis
>
>
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:25:52 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Peoria interchange on PRR



Drew McGhee wrote:

> Barry, Richard and the group,
>
> One way to track down PRR interchanges is to use an _Official Guide..._ to
> cross reference an interchange location between the two railroads involved.
> Sometimes one railroad will list a location as an interchange point with,
> let's say the PRR. However, the PRR might not consider that an interchage
> point to that railroad. The PRR would probably just pick up from that RR at
> that location but not set anything out. To confirm a two-way interchange,
> see that the location is listed as an interchange for both RRs.

But just because two railroads were physically connected at any given point
does not necessarily imply active interchange business.  The fact that the PRR
entered Peoria over the tracks of the P&PU does not mean there was much, if
any, interchange with other P&PU connections and owners.

The CT-1000 for 1945 lists E. Peoria as the junction point between the NKP and
the P&PU, then adds parenthetically: "PCC&StL freight trains enter P&PU
classification yards."  There is no other notation except for the union
passenger and freight terminals, and a connection in Peoria with the TP&W vis
the P&PU.  I reiterate: I doubt very much that there was much being
interchanged there.

The PRR's Peoria branch west of Decatur was a loser, and had been for decades.

Richard Wallis

>
>
> Case in point, The Bellefonte Central had an interchange with the PRR at
> Tyrone. The PRR didn't consider Tyrone an interchange point with the
> Bellefonte Central. Cars that the PRR had for the Bellefonte Central were
> turned over to them at Bellefonte and not Tyrone although the Bellefonte
> Central would forward cars to the PRR at both Tyrone and Bellefonte. Do to
> lack of traffic, the connection at Tyrone was abandanded early. The 'half
> bridge' just southeast of Tyrone on PA Route 45 was part of the Bellefonte
> Central line into Tyrone.
>
> Drew R. McGhee
> Altoona, PA
> drm6@psu.edu
> http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/
>
> At 01:04 PM 03/16/2000 -0600, Richard Wallis wrote:
> >Barry & List:
> >
> >I know this sounds subversive, but I don't think the PRR did much of an
> >interchange business, if any, at Peoria.  The Louie probably
> >interchanged with the TP&W and P&E via Pekin.
> >
> >The PRR's Peoria Branch simply was not set up for overhead business.
> >Track conditions, both in bridge strength and rail weight, was extremely
> >light, and operationally, there was not much traffic.  I doubt very much
> >if the PRR did much business period west of Decatur.  The preferred
> >route was via the TP&W and Effner; much better physically, and with a
> >faster set diverging PRR routes at Logansport.  In other words, put no
> >bets on the Peoria branch.
> >
> >Richard Wallis
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:27:03 EST
Subject: [PRR] A genteel reply to Eugene Nowland's posting

Howdy, Eugene,

    Welcome to one of the best places to learn about the Standard Railroad of 
the World. You're right, the noise level is a bit high because of the 
upcoming PRRT&HS convention. By and at large we PRR-talkers are younger, more 
modeling oriented and cybersavvy than the current leadership of the society, 
and more interested in PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh & Erie than the current 
leadership. Young is relative. I am 44 some are in their 50s. still consider 
that a friend hired as a track hand in Xenia at 18 in 1967 today is 51 years 
old. Clearly, the society is going to have to adapt and become more modeling 
oriented to attract and keep the interest of new members. It's a sad fact 
that little of the original system remains for real-time railfanning. I joke 
my fan trips are to libraries and archives.
    Two years ago the current leadership entered into a three-year contract 
to hold the annual convention in Lancaster, Pa. This led many to believe that 
the leadership was giving up on PRR Lines West which served more states with 
nearly as much track mileage as the PRR "proper" east of Pittsburgh. I have 
Parkinson's and I hope to have my disability claim approved soon. Getting to 
eastern Pennsylvania is extremely difficult. Many believe that the current 
leadership is acting from self-fulfilling prophecy -- No one near me is 
interested in Lines West so we won't schedule any events west of Harrisburg.
    A third issue is access to information. We web heads are from a cultural 
which places a premium on collective scholarship and shared resources, a 
relatively new way of doing business. Many perceive the current leadership as 
being too restrictive on the release of information.

    About the use of screen names, I use TVondruska@aol.com professionally. 
Using Lineswest is a a quick way to let other Pennsy fans know where my main 
interests lie. I'm no t nearly as paranoid as others on line but I do believe 
e in investing in a good Anti-virus program.

    I hope the noise subsides to your comfort level and you hang around 
awhile. My interests include scratch building and craftsman kit building of 
rolling stock and structures for my point to point layout depicting the PRR 
Springfield branch crossing the Little Miami River in its shallow valley 
between Xenia and Yellow Springs. It requires the building of 12 through 
girder, plate girder, through truss steel bridges and two wooden bridges, one 
a simple arched trestle and the other a covered wooden Warren truss. 
Paralleling the single track branch is the Springfield & Xenia Railway which 
in my universe is still operating an electric interurban line in spring of 
1949, having decided against converting to the S&X Bus Line in 1934. 
    I can still use steam as the Columbus Div. was dieselized in August 1949.

Take care. This is how I sign most of my postings.

Tom V.

Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio;
on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the Panh
andle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part of 
the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for 
non-motorized intercity travel.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Peter Reinhold <preinhol@unidie.com>
Subject: [PRR] Cabin car roof colors
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:33:04 -0600

Hi to the list,
   I have seen pictures of cabin cars with body color roofs, although this 
seems NOT to be the normal practice. Was there a reason for this or a time 
frame when this occurred ? From a modelers point of view it looks like I 
should just follow the photo whenever I can.
   Thanks in advance,
Pete Reinhold
PRRT&HS #5518
Universal Die & Stampings
preinhol@unidie.com


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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:54:26 -0500
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
Subject: [PRR] Keystone Question

Hello folks,
             when is the nest issue of The Keystone due to be released?

Thank You

Patrick

-- 
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of
the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a
patent yet." 
   -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky
PRRT&HS #6713
============================================================================

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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:41:29 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Question

In a message dated 3/16/00 5:58:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
patrick@dementia.org writes:

> Hello folks,
>               when is the nest issue of The Keystone due to be released?
>  
>  Thank You
>  
>  Patrick
Had minw for a week now up here in Buffalo NY Brian C

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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:54:25 EST
Subject: [PRR] ETT

This should be an easy question. I am interested in the P&E between Renovo 
and Erie in 1957 What ETT should I look for to by. Many on Ebay just not sure 
which one is correct for me. Northern Region I know but what division. Thanks 
Brian C

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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:30:57 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] New Bowser X31f is listed on their web page

Hello list,

Bowser updated their web page on March 13th.  The new X31f is listed,
with four variations, starting with number 55358, the Circle Keystone
scheme.  My interest largely ceases there, but there is a shadow
keystone car and, I believe, a plain keystone car as well (the last is
Ashley, Drew, and Northern).  List price looks to be $12.95.

Doug


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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:41:46 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car roof colors

Peter and the list,

I went through this dilemma with my rebuilt Model Power N6b.  Nearly all color
photos of PRR cabin cars (ie from the very late 40s until the focal orange
scheme of the 60s) show cabin cars with black roofs.  At the same time, it
appears that many black and white builders photos of PRR cabin cars show body
colored roofs.

It's possible (during my late 1940s-early 50s timeframe) to have cabin cars
with body colored roofs, black roofs and body colored cupola sides, and all
black upperworks.

I took the easy way out and painted the upperworks of my N6b all black.

Working from photos is probably best.  I will leave the discussion of the
later shadow keystone and focal orange schemes (not to mention the pool cabin
cars with yellow or grey cupolas) to abler hands.

Doug

Peter Reinhold wrote:

> Hi to the list,
>    I have seen pictures of cabin cars with body color roofs, although this
> seems NOT to be the normal practice. Was there a reason for this or a time
> frame when this occurred ? From a modelers point of view it looks like I
> should just follow the photo whenever I can.
>    Thanks in advance,
> Pete Reinhold
> PRRT&HS #5518
> Universal Die & Stampings
> preinhol@unidie.com
>
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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:01:36 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 F-3's


--------------EB5AE182A3A2C2275CE458AD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bob, list,

As a steam modeller, I may be out of place here, but I have done a few
PRR diesels.  Most of the parts you'll want to add are in the Bowser
catalog's Cal Scale section.

Start by replacing the pilot; use part 190-441, the "passenger" pilot.
You'll need to remove the number boards; replace them with the 190-416
number boards.  Add 190-415 lift rings, and the 190-402 antenna support
set as well.

Add lift rings of your choice.  You'll probably also want to remove the
molded on grab irons and replace them with wire.

You'll need to add the dynamic brake hatch; LifeLike modelled a
nondynamic unit.  I don't know of an easy way to do this.

Finally, there are other passenger pilots out there.  I've used the
Detail Associates passenger pilot, but several other listmembers have
pointed out that it's inaccurate.  I'll defer to their judgement.  The
new Intermountain passenger pilot is supposed to be excellent.

Enjoy your Fs.

Doug

rholden wrote:

> Hi, everybody! Anyone have any imput and ideas in making the F-3's
> from L-Like a little more prototypical in appearance. At the
> least...some diaphrams and Kadee's that will allow them to run closer
> together. I'm going to go back to all my materials to look at other
> details. Also, did the PRR add lift rings to the A units? Regards, Bob

--------------EB5AE182A3A2C2275CE458AD
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Bob, list,
<p>As a steam modeller, I may be out of place here, but I have done a few
PRR diesels.&nbsp; Most of the parts you'll want to add are in the Bowser
catalog's Cal Scale section.
<p>Start by replacing the pilot; use part 190-441, the "passenger" pilot.&nbsp;
You'll need to remove the number boards; replace them with the 190-416
number boards.&nbsp; Add 190-415 lift rings, and the 190-402 antenna support
set as well.
<p>Add lift rings of your choice.&nbsp; You'll probably also want to remove
the molded on grab irons and replace them with wire.
<p>You'll need to add the dynamic brake hatch; LifeLike modelled a nondynamic
unit.&nbsp; I don't know of an easy way to do this.
<p>Finally, there are other passenger pilots out there.&nbsp; I've used
the Detail Associates passenger pilot, but several other listmembers have
pointed out that it's inaccurate.&nbsp; I'll defer to their judgement.&nbsp;
The new Intermountain passenger pilot is supposed to be excellent.
<p>Enjoy your Fs.
<p>Doug
<p>rholden wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font size=-1>Hi, everybody! Anyone
have any imput and ideas in making the F-3's from L-Like a little more
prototypical in appearance. At the least...some diaphrams and Kadee's that
will allow them to run closer together. I'm going to go back to all my
materials to look at other details. Also, did the PRR add lift rings to
the A units? Regards, Bob</font></blockquote>

</body>
</html>

--------------EB5AE182A3A2C2275CE458AD--


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:43:44 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] ETT

This may help.

1949 - Buffalo and Renovo Divisions
1951 -  Northern Division
1961 -  Northern Region
1967 - Central Region

Don't have a 1957 connecting ETT

Rich Orr

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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:00:57 -0500
From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car roof colors

--On Don, 16. Mär 2000 16:33 -0600 "Peter Reinhold" <preinhol@unidie.com>
wrote: 

> Hi to the list,
>    I have seen pictures of cabin cars with body color roofs, although this

> seems NOT to be the normal practice. Was there a reason for this or a time

> frame when this occurred ? From a modelers point of view it looks like I 
> should just follow the photo whenever I can.

knock over a can o' worms much!?

heh, heh,

Vagel Keller
Pittsburgh

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Life-Like Pennsy F-3's
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:12:25 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF8F8C.53B49440
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Evening...everyone....thanks so much for the helpful info on detailing =
my Proto 1000 F-3's. I've got a lot of photo's to help me now...and I've =
been lucky to find some nice photos, both the enginemen side and the =
fireman side. Only other question I have guys, any known photo's of an =
overhead shot of F-3's? I know there are some out there. This is one of =
those projects that once you start doing, it's hard to stop!=20
Regards,
Bob Holden, 'Going back to work on these F-3's!

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF8F8C.53B49440
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Evening...everyone....thanks so much for the helpful =
info on=20
detailing my Proto 1000 F-3's. I've got a lot of photo's to help me =
now...and=20
I've been lucky to find some nice photos, both the enginemen side and =
the=20
fireman side. Only other question I have guys, any known photo's of an =
overhead=20
shot of F-3's? I know there are some out there. This is one of those =
projects=20
that once you start doing, it's hard to stop! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV>Bob Holden, 'Going back to work on these F-3's!</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF8F8C.53B49440--


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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Trademark Question?
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:17:39 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BF8F8D.0EC649E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Fellow PRR-List members.=20
I've got a question, maybe Jerry might know the answer to this one!
Does anyone still hold the rights to the PRR 'Keystone'? Can a business =
use a sort of look alike keystone that the PRR used? I know that one of =
our PRR list members out in, I believe Indiana, had a railroad using a =
Keystone?anybody want to tackle this one...I'm all ears. Bob Holden.

------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BF8F8D.0EC649E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hello Fellow PRR-List members. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I've got a question, maybe Jerry might know the answer to this =
one!</DIV>
<DIV>Does anyone still hold the rights to the PRR 'Keystone'? Can a =
business use=20
a sort of look alike keystone that the PRR used? I know that one of our =
PRR list=20
members out in, I believe Indiana, had a railroad using a =
Keystone?anybody want=20
to tackle this one...I'm all ears. Bob Holden.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BF8F8D.0EC649E0--


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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:25:58 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trademark Question?

The regional carrier Indianapolis and Louisville Railroad is using a keystone 
for its logo and the type style of the Pennsylvania Railroad as used in 
timetables and other forms of the 1950s. The I&L incidentally is the former 
Pennsy main line between the two cities and now hosts a section of Amtrak's 
Cardinal as well. I hope this helps everyone out.

Jim Mancuso

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:29:29 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car roof colors

In a message dated 3/16/2000 4:43:13 PM Central Standard Time, 
preinhol@unidie.com writes:

<< I have seen pictures of cabin cars with body color roofs, although this 
 seems NOT to be the normal practice. Was there a reason for this or a time 
 frame when this occurred ? From a modelers point of view it looks like I 
 should just follow the photo whenever I can. >>

The Article in the December 1974 Keystone on painting cabin cars says from 
1920 to the late 1940s the roof was body color.  Sometime in the late 40's 
roofs began to be painted black and sometime later the cupola so painted.
BTW, that article by Gary Rauch, Robert Johnson, and Frecedric Shaefer also 
gives 1949 as the date handholds began to be painted yellow (substantiated by 
the published drawings).  
In addition a 1961 drawing specifies the yellow cupola for pool cabins.
Beyond that I cannot tell, since these old eyes can't make out the lettering.

Bob Zoeller







Bob Zoeller

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From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: [PRR] Savannah Protype Modelers Meet
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:13:12 -0800

Anyone from the List going to Savannah for the Prototype Modelers Meet
next weekend, March 24-25?

Please contact me off list.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 02:11:17 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car roof colors

I'm wiring writing a story on the development of the N6 cabin car classes 
that'll answer these questions. Contact me off list if you are interested in 
a bibliography of by sources. 
Prior to 1954, official color of all cabin car roofs is the ever mysterious 
FCC or "Freight Car Color" which was applied to canvas stretched across the 
roof opening. Asphaltum was applied to the roofs as waterproofing when the 
cars were shopped. When the Shadow Keystone was adopted in December 1954, 
Asphaultum was listed as the top coat of cabin Car roofs and their underframes
 
Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio;
on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the 
Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part 
of the 72-miile The 'Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for 
non-motorized intercity travel. t

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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:51:11 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Sodus Point Yard Diagram -- Elmira/Northern Central Branch
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

For you folks interested in the Elmira Branch (nee Northern Central Branch),
there's a Sodus Point Yard diagram for sale on eBay:

    PRR Sodus Point Yard Diagram
    Item #285561899
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:54:34 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Actually, A Bunch Of Yard Diagrams
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

It appears that I spoke too soon in my previous post. There are a lot of
good yard diagrams on eBay right now:

PRR Sodus Point Yard Diagram
Item #285561899

PRR Yard Diagram Watkins Glen NY
Item #285556762

PRR Oil City Yard Layout Diagram 1964
Item #285549730

PRR Olean Receiving and Class Yard Diagram
Item #285543067
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:53:22 -0600
From: John Sheets <johnit@interaccess.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser H-21 Paint Schemes

Andy wrote:

> Rainey Wood Coke Co.

> 
> My question is: Which of these are prototypical?
> []  ... 

There was, at least thru WWII, a Rainey-Wood Coke Company in Swedeland, PA.

Believe that became Alan Wood Steel, was served by the Upper Merion & Plymouth
RR (UMP) with both a PRR and Reading RR connection.

John

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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:01:33 -0500
From: Drew McGhee <drm6@psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Peoria interchange on PRR

Greetings to the group,

That's why I suggested the _Official Guide..._ for the era in question. It
lists the RR's interchange points so shippers and station agents can figure
out car routings. As I mentioned you would need to cross reference each
railroad to see if a given location was a two way interchange or one way
interchange point.

Drew R. McGhee
Altoona, PA
drm6@psu.edu
http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/

At 03:25 PM 03/16/2000 -0600, Richard Wallis wrote:
>
>
>Drew McGhee wrote:
>
>> Barry, Richard and the group,
>>
>> One way to track down PRR interchanges is to use an _Official Guide..._ to
>> cross reference an interchange location between the two railroads involved.
>> Sometimes one railroad will list a location as an interchange point with,
>> let's say the PRR. However, the PRR might not consider that an interchage
>> point to that railroad. The PRR would probably just pick up from that RR at
>> that location but not set anything out. To confirm a two-way interchange,
>> see that the location is listed as an interchange for both RRs.
>
>But just because two railroads were physically connected at any given point
>does not necessarily imply active interchange business.  The fact that the
PRR
>entered Peoria over the tracks of the P&PU does not mean there was much, if
>any, interchange with other P&PU connections and owners.
>
>The CT-1000 for 1945 lists E. Peoria as the junction point between the NKP
and
>the P&PU, then adds parenthetically: "PCC&StL freight trains enter P&PU
>classification yards."  There is no other notation except for the union
>passenger and freight terminals, and a connection in Peoria with the TP&W vis
>the P&PU.  I reiterate: I doubt very much that there was much being
>interchanged there.


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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:04:02 -0600 (CST)
From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)
Subject: [PRR] PRR:  Oil Creek area question

Hey yunz

Jerry's note about an Oil City track plan on e-bay triggered a question that I had meant to ask some time ago but forgot.

Last July I traveled on the Oil Creek and Titusville Railroad tourist train.  The engineer told me that line used to be PRR.  Said the whistleposts were set for 45 mph and that I-1 engines used to go through regularly.  What PRR branch was that line?  It runs from Oil City to Titusville and north.  I've read through the Centennial History book and still cannot decide which line it was.

In August I visited the Drake Well Museum and walked these same tracks for quite a distance.  There are many 1959 date nails still in the ties.  


Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540



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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:06:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Oil Creek area question
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/17/00 11:04 AM, Don Harper (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote:

> Jerry's note about an Oil City track plan on e-bay triggered a question that I
> had meant to ask some time ago but forgot.
> 
> Last July I traveled on the Oil Creek and Titusville Railroad tourist train.
> The engineer told me that line used to be PRR.  Said the whistleposts were set
> for 45 mph and that I-1 engines used to go through regularly.  What PRR branch
> was that line?  It runs from Oil City to Titusville and north.  I've read
> through the Centennial History book and still cannot decide which line it was.
> 
> In August I visited the Drake Well Museum and walked these same tracks for
> quite a distance.  There are many 1959 date nails still in the ties.
> 
Referencing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C (available on "Keystone
Crossings" web site), I find the following:

p. 276: Central Region/Northern Division/Buffalo Division shows the line at
mile 117.1 (from Pittsburgh) becoming the Allegheny Branch at South Oil
City...terminating at Oil City at mile 120.5 with a junction to the
Salamanca Branch.

In reviewing the Salamanca Branch, the Oil City station entry also indicates
an interchange with the Chautauqua Branch, not mentioned in the entry above.

The Chautauqua Branch is your answer, and its details are on p.281. It runs
from Oil City through Rouseville, Petroleum Center, Miller Farm, (into
Crawford County where the Britton family resided as of the 1840's!),
Titusville, Hydetown, Tryonville, Centerville, Glynden, Spartensburg, (into
Erie County), a few other towns, then into New York state, eventually
terminating at Buffalo.

Enough info for ya?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:49:04 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser H-21 Paint Schemes

--- John Sheets <johnit@interaccess.com> wrote:
> Andy wrote:
> 
> > Rainey Wood Coke Co.
> 
> > 
> > My question is: Which of these are prototypical?
> > []  ... 
> 
> There was, at least thru WWII, a Rainey-Wood Coke
> Company in Swedeland, PA.
> 
> Believe that became Alan Wood Steel, was served by
> the Upper Merion & Plymouth
> RR (UMP) with both a PRR and Reading RR connection.
> 
The Rainey name has been associated with coke-making
in Western Pa since, I think, 1900 or perhaps earlier.
Lots of pictures of cars marked with that name. (J. R.
Rainey seems right.)

Perhaps the Rainey-Wood Coke Co. was formed when Alan
Wood, looking at the latest Rainey to take the helm of
the coke company, decided that he needed to get
involved in order to protect the steel company's coke
supply.

That's speculation, but I find the idea of a coke
company established anywhere in Pa. other than
Westmoreland or Fayette counties to be odd.

The idea of a coke producer becoming a steel producer
also seems odd. (Yeah, H. C. Frick himself managed the
trick, but the coke company stayed a coke company, it
didn't become Carnegie Steel).

So, if the Rainey-Wood Coke Co. was set up to assure a
supply of coke to the Alan Wood Steel Co. in eastern
Pa., it would probably need a fleet of cars to haul
the stuff from the western Pa. ovens to the eastern
Pa. furnaces. Remember too that when PRR first built
the H21, it was billed as a coke car.

None of the above proves anything, of course.

=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


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From: "Roy Breon" <roybreon@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Actually, A Bunch Of Yard Diagrams
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:01:52 -0500

You can view all the Elmira Branch track diagrams from my storage site at
https://www.idrive.com/roybreon/

Go to Elmira Branch maps.  I think the Sodus Yard is on file elmbr018.tif

They might not be as detailed as those being auctioned off.  Don't know.

Roy Breon
Pittsford, NY
roybreon@netzero.net


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
>To: PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com>
>Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:02 AM
>Subject: [PRR] Actually, A Bunch Of Yard Diagrams
>
>
>>It appears that I spoke too soon in my previous post. There are a lot of
>>good yard diagrams on eBay right now:
>>
>>PRR Sodus Point Yard Diagram
>>Item #285561899
>>
>>PRR Yard Diagram Watkins Glen NY
>>Item #285556762
>>
>>PRR Oil City Yard Layout Diagram 1964
>>Item #285549730
>>
>>PRR Olean Receiving and Class Yard Diagram
>>Item #285543067
>
>

__________________________________________
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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Oil Creek area question
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:26:59 -0500

Jerry and list:

This posted question revealed to me that there is another operating RR on
old PRR trackage, and I wasn't aware that it existed.  I've ridden on
several of PAs tourist railroads but I guess there are several more that I
don't know about.  Anyone care to fill me in on this Oil Creek line and
others?  Thanks in advance.

Lew Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
To: Don Harper <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>; PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Oil Creek area question


>On 3/17/00 11:04 AM, Don Harper (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote:
>
>> Jerry's note about an Oil City track plan on e-bay triggered a question
that I
>> had meant to ask some time ago but forgot.
>>
>> Last July I traveled on the Oil Creek and Titusville Railroad tourist
train.
>> The engineer told me that line used to be PRR.  Said the whistleposts
were set
>> for 45 mph and that I-1 engines used to go through regularly.  What PRR
branch
>> was that line?  It runs from Oil City to Titusville and north.  I've read
>> through the Centennial History book and still cannot decide which line it
was.
>>
>> In August I visited the Drake Well Museum and walked these same tracks
for
>> quite a distance.  There are many 1959 date nails still in the ties.
>>
>Referencing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C (available on "Keystone
>Crossings" web site), I find the following:
>
>p. 276: Central Region/Northern Division/Buffalo Division shows the line at
>mile 117.1 (from Pittsburgh) becoming the Allegheny Branch at South Oil
>City...terminating at Oil City at mile 120.5 with a junction to the
>Salamanca Branch.
>
>In reviewing the Salamanca Branch, the Oil City station entry also
indicates
>an interchange with the Chautauqua Branch, not mentioned in the entry
above.
>
>The Chautauqua Branch is your answer, and its details are on p.281. It runs
>from Oil City through Rouseville, Petroleum Center, Miller Farm, (into
>Crawford County where the Britton family resided as of the 1840's!),
>Titusville, Hydetown, Tryonville, Centerville, Glynden, Spartensburg, (into
>Erie County), a few other towns, then into New York state, eventually
>terminating at Buffalo.
>
>Enough info for ya?
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
>Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
>    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
>For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
>    http://www.brasstrains.net
>For Dealers and Manufacturers
>    http://modelrailroadnews.net
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:42:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Will <alcoman@net.bluemoon.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Oil Creek area question


Dear Lew

The OCTL runs from Titusville...I have a link to it at
http://alcoman.railfan.net/rrlinks.html.  The operation is run by a
society with motive power being supplied by the OCT Lines which is part of
the New York and Lake Erie RR.  The OCTL also handles freight in the area.

Hope this helps

On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, lew matt wrote:

>Jerry and list:
>
>This posted question revealed to me that there is another operating RR on
>old PRR trackage, and I wasn't aware that it existed.  I've ridden on
>several of PAs tourist railroads but I guess there are several more that I
>don't know about.  Anyone care to fill me in on this Oil Creek line and
>others?  Thanks in advance.
>
>Lew Matt
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
>To: Don Harper <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>; PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com>
>Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 12:10 PM
>Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Oil Creek area question
>
>
>>On 3/17/00 11:04 AM, Don Harper (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote:
>>
>>> Jerry's note about an Oil City track plan on e-bay triggered a question
>that I
>>> had meant to ask some time ago but forgot.
>>>
>>> Last July I traveled on the Oil Creek and Titusville Railroad tourist
>train.
>>> The engineer told me that line used to be PRR.  Said the whistleposts
>were set
>>> for 45 mph and that I-1 engines used to go through regularly.  What PRR
>branch
>>> was that line?  It runs from Oil City to Titusville and north.  I've read
>>> through the Centennial History book and still cannot decide which line it
>was.
>>>
>>> In August I visited the Drake Well Museum and walked these same tracks
>for
>>> quite a distance.  There are many 1959 date nails still in the ties.
>>>
>>Referencing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C (available on "Keystone
>>Crossings" web site), I find the following:
>>
>>p. 276: Central Region/Northern Division/Buffalo Division shows the line at
>>mile 117.1 (from Pittsburgh) becoming the Allegheny Branch at South Oil
>>City...terminating at Oil City at mile 120.5 with a junction to the
>>Salamanca Branch.
>>
>>In reviewing the Salamanca Branch, the Oil City station entry also
>indicates
>>an interchange with the Chautauqua Branch, not mentioned in the entry
>above.
>>
>>The Chautauqua Branch is your answer, and its details are on p.281. It runs
>>from Oil City through Rouseville, Petroleum Center, Miller Farm, (into
>>Crawford County where the Britton family resided as of the 1840's!),
>>Titusville, Hydetown, Tryonville, Centerville, Glynden, Spartensburg, (into
>>Erie County), a few other towns, then into New York state, eventually
>>terminating at Buffalo.
>>
>>Enough info for ya?
>>---------------------------------------------------------
>>Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
>>Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
>>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
>>    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>>    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
>>For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
>>    http://www.brasstrains.net
>>For Dealers and Manufacturers
>>    http://modelrailroadnews.net
>>
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>

Will Semanchuk-Enser      Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator         
alcoman@bluemoon.net      net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System    
V.90, X2 & K56flex        www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network        
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bbs.bluemoon.net          irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server

                 Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net                     


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Oil Creek area question
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:06:41 -0500

Dear Will:

Very informative.  I am going to schedule a trip in June.  Thanks.

Any other RRs out there?

Lew Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Will <alcoman@net.bluemoon.net>
To: lew matt <lmatt@alltel.net>
Cc: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>; PRR talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Oil Creek area question


>
>Dear Lew
>
>The OCTL runs from Titusville...I have a link to it at
>http://alcoman.railfan.net/rrlinks.html.  The operation is run by a
>society with motive power being supplied by the OCT Lines which is part of
>the New York and Lake Erie RR.  The OCTL also handles freight in the area.
>
>Hope this helps
>
>On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, lew matt wrote:
>
>>Jerry and list:
>>
>>This posted question revealed to me that there is another operating RR on
>>old PRR trackage, and I wasn't aware that it existed.  I've ridden on
>>several of PAs tourist railroads but I guess there are several more that I
>>don't know about.  Anyone care to fill me in on this Oil Creek line and
>>others?  Thanks in advance.
>>
>>Lew Matt
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
>>To: Don Harper <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>; PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com>
>>Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 12:10 PM
>>Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Oil Creek area question
>>
>>
>>>On 3/17/00 11:04 AM, Don Harper (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jerry's note about an Oil City track plan on e-bay triggered a question
>>that I
>>>> had meant to ask some time ago but forgot.
>>>>
>>>> Last July I traveled on the Oil Creek and Titusville Railroad tourist
>>train.
>>>> The engineer told me that line used to be PRR.  Said the whistleposts
>>were set
>>>> for 45 mph and that I-1 engines used to go through regularly.  What PRR
>>branch
>>>> was that line?  It runs from Oil City to Titusville and north.  I've
read
>>>> through the Centennial History book and still cannot decide which line
it
>>was.
>>>>
>>>> In August I visited the Drake Well Museum and walked these same tracks
>>for
>>>> quite a distance.  There are many 1959 date nails still in the ties.
>>>>
>>>Referencing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C (available on "Keystone
>>>Crossings" web site), I find the following:
>>>
>>>p. 276: Central Region/Northern Division/Buffalo Division shows the line
at
>>>mile 117.1 (from Pittsburgh) becoming the Allegheny Branch at South Oil
>>>City...terminating at Oil City at mile 120.5 with a junction to the
>>>Salamanca Branch.
>>>
>>>In reviewing the Salamanca Branch, the Oil City station entry also
>>indicates
>>>an interchange with the Chautauqua Branch, not mentioned in the entry
>>above.
>>>
>>>The Chautauqua Branch is your answer, and its details are on p.281. It
runs
>>>from Oil City through Rouseville, Petroleum Center, Miller Farm, (into
>>>Crawford County where the Britton family resided as of the 1840's!),
>>>Titusville, Hydetown, Tryonville, Centerville, Glynden, Spartensburg,
(into
>>>Erie County), a few other towns, then into New York state, eventually
>>>terminating at Buffalo.
>>>
>>>Enough info for ya?
>>>---------------------------------------------------------
>>>Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
>>>Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
>>>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
>>>    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>>>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>>>    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
>>>For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
>>>    http://www.brasstrains.net
>>>For Dealers and Manufacturers
>>>    http://modelrailroadnews.net
>>>
>>>
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>>>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>>>
>>
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
>Will Semanchuk-Enser      Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator
>alcoman@bluemoon.net      net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System
>V.90, X2 & K56flex        www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network
>http://www.bluemoon.net   mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud
>bbs.bluemoon.net          irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server
>
>                 Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net
>
>


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:37:08 -0500
From: Jerry Shickler <jshickler@lkerie.com>
Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR: Oil Creek area question

Don wrote:
<<
Hey yunz

Jerry's note about an Oil City track plan on e-bay triggered a question
that I
had meant to ask some time ago but forgot.

Last July I traveled on the Oil Creek and Titusville Railroad tourist
train. 
The engineer told me that line used to be PRR.  Said the whistleposts
were set
for 45 mph and that I-1 engines used to go through regularly.  What PRR
branch
was that line?  It runs from Oil City to Titusville and north.  I've
read
through the Centennial History book and still cannot decide which line
it was.

In August I visited the Drake Well Museum and walked these same tracks
for quite
a distance.  There are many 1959 date nails still in the ties. >>

Don,

If you want to go north, you're on the Chautauqua branch.  South is the
Allegheny branch. I have some 1971 aerial pictures of the yard and wye
bridge from the Library of Congress site posted on my site:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/oilcity.htm


-- 
Jerry Shickler
Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:30:05 EST
Subject: [PRR] Savannah Prototype Modelers Meet

Hey Yuze Gize,

Over on the Prototype Modelers list we have been working on a little event coming up at the end of the month.  You are all invited to partcipate.  Prototype Modelers is a growing association.  We focus on REALISTIC modeling without egos. We are of the opinion we are here to help and share. If you don't belong you may want to consider it. Contact me off line... Sorry for the short notice.  We have several friends that have set up Photo points for their models through PROTOtype@onelist.com.  We are growing!  

One week from today March 24 & 25, 2000, marks the start of the Savannah Prototype Modeler's meet.  This is the first meet of the new Prototype Modeler's Association [PMA].  The meet starts at 1:00 PM March 24 and ends late Saturday evening March 25.

Pre-registration is $10 per person, $12 at the door.

If you have not yet made plans to attend this get together of many of the hobby's best known prototype modelers, you might to consider doing so. There will be several hundred prototype railroad models on display ranging from locomotives to freight cars, passenger cars, and other rolling stock along with railroad structures! Dayna and John will have the first sample of "Colosus" on display. 

Models will represent any prototype railroad ranging from the New York Central and Atlantic Coast Line [water level routes] to the Great Northern and the Santa Fe western railroads as well as our favorite the PRR. Steve Hoxie will be there! This should be the largest and highest quality display of prototype railroad models you will have ever seen.

For directions and registration information contact Bob Harpe at bobharpe@webtv.net...

We are looking to hold a National Convention in the coming year.  If all goes well with this regional gathering we will be holding more regional events also nationwide. If you would like to host an event let us know.  

Please check yor egos at the door...  3^)   

Greg Martin



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:54:05 -0800
From: Chuck Friedlein <diehexe@uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trademark Question?

Greetings all,

Very briefly and without the gory details, there was a court
decision a few years back that declared the PRR keystone and
the other "fallen flag" monograms were public property.
This was as a result of the hobby industry (MRIA) taking up
the fight when someone alleged trademark infringement, but
had no right to the trademark in the first place.

Chuck Friedlein

rholden wrote:

> Hello Fellow PRR-List members.I've got a question, maybe
> Jerry might know the answer to this one!Does anyone still
> hold the rights to the PRR 'Keystone'? Can a business use
> a sort of look alike keystone that the PRR used? I know
> that one of our PRR list members out in, I believe
> Indiana, had a railroad using a Keystone?anybody want to
> tackle this one...I'm all ears. Bob Holden.


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Walt Prusick" <walpru@stargate.net>
Subject: [PRR] Oil Creek
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:59:21 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF9032.23B08A00
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Guys,=20
Was on it last year. The thought of I 1's on that rail and roadbed gives =
me shivers! Granted that was more than a few years since they ran on =
that stretch, but good gosh!
Walt Prusick

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF9032.23B08A00
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Guys, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Was on it last year. The thought of I =
1's on that=20
rail and roadbed gives me shivers! Granted that was more than a few =
years since=20
they ran on that stretch, but good gosh!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt Prusick</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF9032.23B08A00--


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:24:17 -0500
From: "David R. Campbell" <southern@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil Creek

> Walt Prusick wrote:
> 
> Guys,
> Was on it last year. The thought of I 1's on that rail and roadbed
> gives me shivers! Granted that was more than a few years since they
> ran on that stretch, but good gosh!
> Walt Prusick

I was thinking the same thing, no real grades to speak of. I lived in
Oil City for about 32 years and had walked most parts of those tracks
for one reason or another. I just cannot imagine decapods in regular
service on that line. I think they were used to push out of Erie, but I
thought that was as close as they came to Oil City in regular use. Just
born a little late I guess.

David Campbell
Norton, VA

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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:27:10 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trademark Question?

In a message dated 3/16/2000 9:23:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rholden@superpa.net writes:

<< Hello Fellow PRR-List members. 
 I've got a question, maybe Jerry might know the answer to this one!
 Does anyone still hold the rights to the PRR 'Keystone'? Can a business use 
a sort of look alike keystone that the PRR used? I know that one of our PRR 
list members out in, I believe Indiana, had a railroad using a 
Keystone?anybody want to tackle this one...I'm all ears. Bob Holden.
  >>

Answer One: As already posted, the Louisville & Indianapolis (a shortline 
operating the PRR Louisville Branch) uses a keystone prominently as its 
symbol.  It can appear in red on gray, or in green on yellow.

I wouldn't have to look around very far to find other businesses that use 
versions of PRR keystones as their business logos (or as the railroad would 
say, monograms).

Answer Two: Bob, your question is a natural one, and please understand that I 
am not picking on you....  

However, the question of trademark, and legal rights to use a trademark, and 
discussion about the ability of fans and enthusiasts to use trademarks now or 
previously held by various corporations, have already wasted much bandwidth 
previously on this list, on the Freight cars List, on the Layout Design SIG 
list, and probably everywhere else where railroading and email are spoken.  
Particularly with the PRR keystone, the answer may depend entirely on which 
lawyer you've retained.  I've concluded in my last two years online that all 
such discussions are a complete waste of time (sort of like debating whether 
Lines West was really part of the Pennsy or not <G>), because nothing is ever 
settled.

Thus, I'd suggest strongly to Jerry that trademarks and copyrights be one 
more of the topics we avoid on PRR-Talk, in the interests of concentrating on 
matters of real PRR interest.

Thanks for listening,

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West 

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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] RE:Oil Creek Area Question
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:52:42 -0000


Additional input on PRR's Oil City - Titusville Line

It was constructed like many lines, in pieces.  Titusville to Petroleum
Centre on the west bank of Oil Creek, 11.00 miles, by the Oil Creek Railroad
Company in 1863. Petroleum Centre to Oil City , 8.00 miles, by Farmers'
Railroad Company in 1866. Titusville to Pioneer on the east bank of oil
Creek, 9.00 miles, by the Titusville and Oil City Railway Company in 1880.
Through a series of very complicated consolidations, mergers and
acquisitions all of the lines eventually became part of the Western New York
and Pennsylvania Railway Company (WNY&P) a.k.a. NYP pronounced NIP. The NYP
was incorporated March 18, 1895 and was operated by the PRR effective July
1, 1930.

In my opinion the NYP was one of the most complicated assemblages of
railroad properties in the entire PRR System. It was the only leased line to
have property in both Lines East and Lines West. Although most all of the
NYP was in Lines East the branch from Mahoningtown to Stoneboro, thence via
NYC trackage rights to Oil City was assigned to the E&A Division, Lines
West.


Al


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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:05:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trademark Question?

Rick,

    Normally I defer to you but the answer to this a question is that the 
Trademarks of the on the corporate logos of the Pennsylvania Railroad have 
lapsed and currently are in the public domain. To settle this question once 
and for all I'd like to see them placed in safekeeping with the PRRT&HS if 
the NS doesn't start using them again.
    The more complex question involves the calendar pictures and other 
advertising materials since these were often copyrighted by the ad agency, 
not the railroad.

Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio;
on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the 
Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part 
of the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for 
non-motorized intercity travel.

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Railroad Heralds
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:32:56 -0500

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Sorry Everyone...One of the reasons I asked the question about the =
'Keystone' herald use is the fact that I am in Harrisburg checking on =
the name 'Keystone' so that I might use it with a business I am =
starting. I did not know this had previously been aired out on the list. =
Suffice to say, I know everyone is not a lawyer on our site, but I was =
looking for basic information on this question. I just want to make a =
comment that a few of you out there are getting a little snippy and =
touchy about what we discuss of this page. It is an 'open forum'. =
Everyone must understand that many of us are just coming on board...Why =
can't a few of you just ignore questions that seem mundane, or not =
interesting...? Either that, or Jerry is going to have to post protocals =
about what we can talk about. I'm getting less hassle going on CSX =
property to photograph!!! Bob=20

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sorry Everyone...One of the reasons I asked the =
question about=20
the 'Keystone' herald use is the fact that I am in Harrisburg checking =
on the=20
name 'Keystone' so that I might use it with a business I am starting. I =
did not=20
know this had previously been aired out on the list. Suffice to say, I =
know=20
everyone is not a lawyer on our site, but I was looking for basic =
information on=20
this question. I just want to make a comment that a few of you out there =
are=20
getting a little snippy and touchy about what we discuss of this page. =
It is an=20
'open forum'. Everyone must understand that many of us are just coming =
on=20
board...Why can't a few of you just ignore questions that seem mundane, =
or not=20
interesting...? Either that, or Jerry is going to have to post protocals =
about=20
what we can talk about. I'm getting less hassle going on CSX property to =

photograph!!! Bob </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF9047.98C22000--


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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:07:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trademark Question?
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/17/00 7:05 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com at (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote:

> The more complex question involves the calendar pictures and other
> advertising materials since these were often copyrighted by the ad agency,
> not the railroad.
> 
The calendar images were all copyrighted by the railroad. The railroad did
not renew them. They are in the public domain.

Advertising materials are "likely" in the same situation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Heralds
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:09:16 -0500

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Thanks for the word, Harold...I harbor no ill will and appreciate the =
info. No offense intended.  . Sorry Listmembers for my =
ignorance...probably won't be the last time. May I not clog anybody's =
arteries further!!!  *I'll check the archives from this point forward. =
Bob

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks for the word, Harold...I harbor no ill will =
and=20
appreciate the info. No offense intended.&nbsp; . Sorry Listmembers for =
my=20
ignorance...probably won't be the last time. May I not clog anybody's =
arteries=20
further!!!&nbsp; *I'll check the archives from this point forward.=20
Bob</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Herald
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:11:17 -0500

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Sorry...Albert...That apology was directed to you! Not Harold!

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sorry...Albert...That apology was directed to you! =
Not=20
Harold!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:45:07 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser X31f is listed on their web page

Hello list,

You can get to Bowser's web site several ways.  They're at
www.bowser-trains.com.  You can also link to them through Jerry's Keystone
Crossings or through Model Railroader's home page.  Bowser's home page has
a link so you can email them.  Whichever way you go, enjoy.

Doug

DPoole17@aol.com wrote:

> Can anyone give me BOWSER's E-Mail address AND it's web site address??


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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:27:56 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad Heralds

Bob,
I have to agree with you on this. As Jerry pointed out on one of his postings 
earlier this week, he doesn't have to support what listers say, but feels 
compelled to support their right to say it (within reason). Certainly, not 
everyone is interested in the same topics....my delete key works overtime on 
Proto F3's for example. 
I guess I have the impression this is indeed an open forum unless specified 
otherwise. (On the side, I was immensely entertained by some guy's bizare 
attempt to copyright the PRR keystone for himself. While details of the 
goings-on were surpressed or avoided like the bubonic, enough did leak out in 
precyber days to make a lot of us curious. But never enough to satisfy the 
curiosity).
Oh well, just throwing in a two-cent piece.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:07:05 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Trainworld of New York Sale includes PRR items

Hello list,

Trainworld of New York sent me a flyer in the mail.  They're having a
sale on some Bachmann items.  Of interest to the PRR fan would include
the P70 coaches ($16.99 or in 6 car sets for $109.99), the F7A and F7B
(EF-15) for $19.99 and 9.99 respectively, the FM H-16-44s at $19.99 and
24.99 (note that this is the late production FM, not the earlier
Loewy-styled unit that Miracle Castings will hopefull be bringing to
market soon), the GP30 (EF-22) at $24.99, the GE 44 tonner (GS-4) at
$24.99, GP-35 (EF-25) at $24.99, and the SD-45 (EF-30) at $29.99.

The ad didn't say whether or not the SD-45s were the Plus or the
Spectrum.  It should be noted that most of the Bachmann models have
deviations from the prototype.  These may or may not be the end of the
world to you, and in some cases are easily fixable.  The F7 models are
too tall, but the MR product review from the July 93 issue (pages 39+)
showed how to fix that.  The GP-35 apparently is too tall, and the Plus
version of the SD-45 was condemned by some for the cab windows.

While I reside firmly in the steam era, I have a soft spot for GP-30s
(it must be that unique cab) and I am very pleased with my pair.  They
are louder than Kato units, but quieter than Athearn diesels.  I don't
own a 44 tonner, but that model received good reviews when it was
introduced in 1988 (am I really that old?).  I also own a pair of the
H-16-44s (though I must confess that mine are painted for CNJ), and they
run well, too.

In any case, if this helps complete anyone's roster,  so much the
better.  Trainworld gives good service, but they don't carry all of the
little parts like Jerry, or Bowser, or Standard Hobby Supply.

Now, back to my N6b.....

Doug


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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Archives!
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:57:21 -0500

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Thanks, Barry...live and learn! I'll be checking the posts in the =
archives...that's what they are there for! I'm too old to fight anyway, =
not with my PRR-List Kinfolk!!!! Regards, everyone!, Bob Holden.

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks, Barry...live and learn! I'll be checking the =
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anyway, not=20
with my PRR-List Kinfolk!!!! Regards, everyone!, Bob=20
Holden.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:27:00 -0800
From: Frank Bagrash <fbagrash@fullerton.edu>
Subject: [PRR] PRR horsecars

Hi,

Does anybody know if the PRR horsecars modeled by the recent HO scale
Bethlehem kit were ever used in interchange service with western
railroads? Were these models ever done in brass in HO scale? Thanks!

Frank

--
Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D.                  714-278-2669
Department of Psychology                 714-278-7134 (Fax)
P.O. Box 6846
California State University
Fullerton, California 92834-6846
E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu
Boogie gently, babies



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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:53:28 -0500
From: Garry <gspear@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trademark Question?

>>  SNIP
>>
See >>http://fairuse.stanford.edu/library/faq.html<< for a basic
discussion on copyright.  The keystone symbol is a corporate trademark
and is covered differently.
Garry Spear

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Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:49:14 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Questions
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

I'm in the final planning stages of modeling the Liberty Limited. I'm
following a consist report from Rails Northeast, dated 9/27/53. It reads

E7A
E7B
E7A
PL85
P85br
P85br
14-section
6DBR-bar (PS6L)
D85 diner
D85 kitchen dorm
4CMPT-2DR-4DBR (PS442)
12DUP-4DBR (PS124)
21RMT (PS21)
2DR-1CMPT-1DBR-bar-lounge (POS211)

Aside from Life Like Proto 2000 locos, I can account for all of the rest of
the cars using Eastern Car Works core kits and Union Station Products car
sides. (Except the POS211, which uses a Rivarossi tail car as the core.)

Now, the three I need help on....

The 14 section -- I am assuming this is a heavyweight. Were there any
others? Nobody makes this yet, do they? If not, hopefully it will be a
future Branchline Trains choice.

The PL85 -- This car is described as a baggage-lounge-bar. I've never seen a
reference to it anywhere else. Anyone know of elevation or floor plans? No
mention of it in "The Official Pullman Standard Library, Volume 4",
"Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting & Lettering" (PRRT&HS), or
"Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book"
(N.J. International).

The PS21 -- This was the "Inn" series. Anyone know of elevation or floor
plans? Budd built 50 of them in 1949. Looks like AC&F did 7 of them. And
Pullman Standard built 2 (Class PS21c). Most were converted to coaches in
1963.

If I can get elevation plans on the PL85 and the PS21, I have someone who
can create a template for laser cut sides.

Lastly, most cars seem to have the narrow "just wider than the door"
diaphragms*. Yet others have diaphragms the full width** of the car. Was
there a rhyme or reason for the difference?

*See p. 52 bottom, "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting &
Lettering" (PRRT&HS).

**See p. 65 top, "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting & Lettering"
(PRRT&HS).

Thanks!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:09:40 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Questions

In a message dated 3/17/2000 8:54:35 PM Central Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< The 14 section -- I am assuming this is a heavyweight. Were there any
 others? Nobody makes this yet, do they? If not, hopefully it will be a
 future Branchline Trains choice.>>

Not a standard 14 section. I bid (too much) for  a Walthers standard 14 
section kit  at NMRA convention in KC, but will use it for Korean war troop 
trains.  I picked up a (to me) bargain 14 section semistreamlined Betterment 
car (which is the one you need) in brass which I will use in my General.
 
 <<The PL85 -- This car is described as a baggage-lounge-bar. I've never seen 
a
 reference to it anywhere else. Anyone know of elevation or floor plans? No
 mention of it in "The Official Pullman Standard Library, Volume 4",
 "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting & Lettering" (PRRT&HS), or
 "Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book"
 (N.J. International).>>

This is the car the Middle Division was going to produce after the P85BR.  
Obviously not available.


 
 <<The PS21 -- This was the "Inn" series. Anyone know of elevation or floor
 plans? Budd built 50 of them in 1949. Looks like AC&F did 7 of them. And
 Pullman Standard built 2 (Class PS21c). Most were converted to coaches in
 1963. >>

There is a new supplier of PS21, I think the Budd version.  Check the latest 
MRR pubs for publicity.

Bob Zoeller

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:24:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR horsecars

Frank,

    Check the archives for the service of the Horse Cars. I believe your
answer wll be found there. It was talked about maybe 3-4 months ago here
n PRR-Talk.. 
     New Jersey Custom Brass released the B-74 Horse Car in the mid
1970's. In my opinion the overall appearence is captured much better
with the Bethlahem Car Works model. Yes more work but that is part of
the fun.....Gary

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4s/new2.jpg


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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:39:35 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser X31f is listed on their web page

In a message dated 3/17/00 7:04:08 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes:

<< Bowser's home page has
 a link so you can email them. >>

Good luck.  I have tried to email them several times, and everytime it gets 
kicked back undeliverable.

Stuart Thayer

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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:52:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Questions

Jerry,
Looks like you picked a challenge with this one. I've got a few odds and ends 
for you.
RE:
The PL85 -- This car is described as a baggage-lounge-bar. I've never seen a
reference to it anywhere else. Anyone know of elevation or floor plans? No
mention of it in "The Official Pullman Standard Library, Volume 4",
"Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting & Lettering" (PRRT&HS), or
"Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book"
(N.J. International).
-----------
Check out Wayner's "Pennsy Car Plans".Class PL85, #'s 1151, 1152 built by 
Budd. Coach capacity 28, lounge 21. There's no baggage section, which is 
probably why the class lacks the "B" such as PB70,etc There's no vestabule on 
the bar end, and it looks like a kitbashing possibility. These cars are also 
shown, with floor plans in Wayner's "Car Nanes, Numbers and Consists"
Regarding the 21 roomette car, why am I thinking that Union Station offers 
that? Oh well, you can get a stand-in 18 roomette side from Brass Car Sides 
and pretend it's running as a sub. That would work for me, but I'm a long way 
from most Pennsy fans and could sneak it by.
The infamous 14 section car is another challenge. You might consider the IHC 
12 section using the NERS 14 S conversion kit, and NERS AC ducts and 
underbody. He was going to offer thermopane windows but said there wasn;t 
enough interest. I have the same problem with this car as the B&O used them 
as well, but I'm gonna cheat and use my Walthers car updated with AC. I don't 
know that all Pennsy's 14S cars got the thermopanes (I know not all the 12S 
cars did) anyway, and most folks won't complain about the lack of rounded 
windows, you'd think.
Well, good luck.
Barry Peltier

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:21:19 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Questions

In a message dated 3/17/2000 8:54:35 PM Central Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< The PL85 -- This car is described as a baggage-lounge-bar. I've never seen 
a
 reference to it anywhere else. Anyone know of elevation or floor plans? >>

I left out another comment on these cars.  There is a diagram on page 47 of 
Wayner's Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams of a PLB85R 
car. I think this is the car referred to, but can't be sure.

Bob Zoeller 

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:26:10 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR horsecars

In a message dated 3/17/2000 8:25:09 PM Central Standard Time, 
fbagrash@fullerton.edu writes:

<< Does anybody know if the PRR horsecars modeled by the recent HO scale
 Bethlehem kit were ever used in interchange service with western
 railroads? >>

Following up my previous post, I thought I had seen a picture of the 
horsecars in Dallas, but the photo was of a scenery car on page 5 of the PRR 
Color Guide Vol 1.  The photo below of the horse car is unidentified as to 
location. But the original statement still stands.  Most of the Pennsy 
headend cars made it into interchange service nationwide.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:53:49 -0500
From: Garry <gspear@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Questions

Jerry Britton wrote:
> 
  SNIP

> The 14 section -- I am assuming this is a heavyweight. Were there any
> others? Nobody makes this yet, do they? If not, hopefully it will be a
> future Branchline Trains choice.

Easy and not easy.  The PRR had two standard 14 Sec. cars (New Nicollet
and Samuel Morse) and twelve 14 Sec. Streamstyled (the PRR term for
betterment) cars.  The stream styled cars were used to provide sections
in the streamlined trains of the late 30s - 40s - 50s - 60s.  There is a
drawing of the ANDREW CARNEGIE in the March 1966 RMC.  I build mine from
an AHM 12-1 with the NERS conversion kit.  Then Pullman roof stock from
Bethlemhem Car Works, skirts from strip plastic and end flairing from
AHM 1930 series cars.  Underframe details are from NERS, Precesion
Scale, and Bethlemhem Cars Works.  Not hard, but not for the faint at
heart. 

> 
> The PL85 -- This car is described as a baggage-lounge-bar. I've never seen a
> reference to it anywhere else. Anyone know of elevation or floor plans? No
> mention of it in "The Official Pullman Standard Library, Volume 4",
> "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting & Lettering" (PRRT&HS), or
> "Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book"
> (N.J. International).

Is there a car number available for this car. The PRR had a class
PLB85R, Wayner's 1981 'PRR Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" page 47,
bottom. 

> 
> The PS21 -- This was the "Inn" series. Anyone know of elevation or floor
> plans? Budd built 50 of them in 1949. Looks like AC&F did 7 of them. And
> Pullman Standard built 2 (Class PS21c). Most were converted to coaches in
> 1963.

Again check the Wayner book, page 65, bottom.  Brass Car Sides has the
correct side for this car.

> 
> Lastly, most cars seem to have the narrow "just wider than the door"
> diaphragms*. Yet others have diaphragms the full width** of the car. Was
> there a rhyme or reason for the difference?

Old and new.  Full width were a maintenance problem and the rrs were
going back to the earlier door width style. 

Garry Spear

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 01:16:23 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Questions

Jerry, Bob, Berry and ALL,

Check Model Railroader for April, the 21 roomette car was announced by NKP 
car.  I believe the cars are set up for the Rivarossi cars.  You might 
consider it, and I believe they also make a P85BR, not sure on the PL85?  

<< Regarding the 21 roomette car, why am I thinking that Union Station offers 
 that?  >>
  Greg Martin 

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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 01:37:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainworld of New York Sale includes PRR items

On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, doug.kisala wrote:

> Hello list,
> 
> Trainworld of New York sent me a flyer in the mail.  They're having a
> sale on some Bachmann items.  Of interest to the PRR fan would include
> the P70 coaches ($16.99 or in 6 car sets for $109.99), the F7A and F7B

That's a real deal:
16.99*6 = 101.94

> While I reside firmly in the steam era, I have a soft spot for GP-30s
> (it must be that unique cab) and I am very pleased with my pair.  They
> are louder than Kato units, but quieter than Athearn diesels.  I don't

I retired mine in favor of P2K units;-)

As he noted, the Bachmann units tend to be not exactly the most highly
thought of, but the 44 ton is a nice unit. All of the other Bachmann units
in my fleet are now mothballed awaiting an upturn in traffic. I suspect
plastic Centipedes would see service first.

-D



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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:22:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:  Oil Creek area question

In a message dated 03/17/2000 11:17:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes:

<< Last July I traveled on the Oil Creek and Titusville Railroad tourist 
train.  The engineer told me that line used to be PRR.  Said the whistleposts 
were set for 45 mph and that I-1 engines used to go through regularly.  What 
PRR branch was that line?  It runs from Oil City to Titusville and north.  
I've read through the Centennial History book and still cannot decide which 
line it was.
  >>
This was part of the Allegheny Valley Railroad and was operated as the 
Allegheny branch of the Connemaugh Division to 2 miles north of Brady Siding 
where it became part of the Buffalo/Northern Division.  The Buffalo Division 
operated the track as the Allegeheny Branch to BRIDGE (mp 138.4 from BUffalo) 
where it became the Chautaqua Branck to tower BM (mp 50.2 from Buffalo) where 
it joined the N&W.  The PRR had running rights over the N&W to tower GB (mp 
7.4 from Buffalo).  At GB the branch also connected to the West Seneca 
Branch.  The Salamanca Brack diverged from the Allegheny Brach at BRIDGE  
>From GB the line followed the West SEneca branch to tower GJ on the mainline.

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:27:04 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil Creek

In a message dated 03/17/2000 5:06:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
walpru@stargate.net writes:

<< Was on it last year. The thought of I 1's on that rail and roadbed gives 
me shivers! Granted that was more than a few years since they ran on that 
stretch, but good gosh!
  >>
How about N-1s on the same track.  Many tons of iron ore from the Erie docks 
went to Pittsburgh blast furnances on those tracks.
Rich Orr

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR Herald
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:15:17 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF90C2.DBD9C340
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill, Thanks, I will be in touch with you in regards to my F-3's. As far =
as my question about the PRR Herald registration, I am putting a lot of =
money of starting a business, utilizing the name 'Keystone'. I don't =
mind being asked to look it up in the archives...but you don't have to =
tell me it's "conversational cholesterol" and that I'm "clogging the =
arteries of our chat group!" I will say it again, Bill, it's an open =
forum...use your delete key...and stop trashing others in the =
group...verbally! And you tell me how many members are searching Jerrys =
archives every time we have a PRR related question? On this List...you =
don't get a polite whisper, you get a slap in the face! That's the =
bottom line of it...a lot of fine people are going to be lost to this =
list as a result...just my 2 cents worth. Now back to my Red Caboose =
X-29. Regards, All...Bob

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF90C2.DBD9C340
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#008000 size=3D2><EM>Bill, Thanks, I will be in touch =
with you in=20
regards to my F-3's. As far as my question about the PRR Herald =
registration, I=20
am putting a lot of money of starting a business, utilizing the name =
'Keystone'.=20
I don't mind being asked to look it up in the archives...but you don't =
have to=20
tell me it's "conversational cholesterol" and that I'm "clogging the =
arteries of=20
our chat group!" I will say it again, Bill, it's an open forum...use =
your delete=20
key...and stop trashing others in the group...verbally! And you tell me =
how many=20
members are searching Jerrys archives every time we have a PRR related =
question?=20
On this List...you don't get a polite whisper, you get a slap in the =
face!=20
That's the bottom line of it...a lot of fine people are going to be lost =
to this=20
list as a result...just my 2 cents worth. Now back to my Red Caboose =
X-29.=20
Regards, All...Bob</EM></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF90C2.DBD9C340--


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From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:41:14 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR horsecars

Does anybody know if the PRR horsecars modeled by the recent HO scale
Bethlehem kit were ever used in interchange service with western
railroads? 

Ball's book the PRR in the 40's and 50's shows one on Mail #13 going up the 
curve on P. 149.  I suppose that some might have been used to get to the 
Kentucky Derby and as such would have had to leave PRR rails for a short time 
but that probably doen't answer your question.

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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:37:36 EST
Subject: [PRR] railroad print

Guys - I recently acquired a print done by a well known artist who has done 
numerous paintings that have been in many railroad related magazines. This 
print is of the Wilmington Station and you are looking down the tracks 
towards the center platform. On one side of the platform is a GG1 and on the 
other is a BP20 passenger shark in Tuscan livery. Did they run BP20s through 
Wilmington or is this a little artistic license? Either way it is a gorgeous 
print.
Dayna
www.trainstuffllc.com

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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:42:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "David L." <berean_two_edge@yahoo.com>
Subject: [PRR] PRR in Reading

Hi Guys,

I'm looking for information on the PRR in Reading
Pennsylvania including the station and the interchange
with the West Reading Branch.  Can anyone help?

Thanks, David

PS. I'm getting ready to deploy to Saudi for 3 months
so I would appreciate off list replies to go to my
Navy address.  I won't have time to keep up with the
list while I am gone so I will be unsubxcribing.

Address: lindd@naswi.navy.mil

Thanks again, David

=====
V/R   David C. Lind      Disaster Preparedness Operations
      AT1       USN      Specialist: NBC Warfare Survival
                         VAQ-133, NAS WHIDBEY ISLAND, WA

Acts 17:11 Be a Berean, search the scriptures.
Ephesians 6:19 A prayer for me.
Model Railroaders: Proverbs 22:6,"Train your children!"

__________________________________________________
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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:37:12 EST
Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati. or Columbus? which is best to model as PRR?

In a message dated 3/18/00 11:30:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton 
writes:

<< If I build a new, smaller layout, do I "move" the locus modeled to a city 
yard?  Dayton, Xenia, Columbus, or Cincinnati?
 
 Hint - Columbus has the most variety of operations, requires interchange 
with N&W.  But all the others have much to offer. >>

Hmmm, I always thought Cincinnati would offer the most challenges with the 
B&O, PRR, NYC, and C&O passing through the city E-W and interchanging with 
the L&N, Southern, and N&W to the south, plenty of manufacturing and the 
rail-barge interchange plus the CL&N tunnel through Walnut Hill at the head 
of the Deer Creek Valley (Gilbert Avenue area.) 
    And you could always complicate an operating session by sending in 
varnish pulled by a T-1 4-4-4-4 whose drawbar must be broken to turn the 
beast at on the too short turntable at the Pendleton Engine house. Another 
challenge would be managing traffic on the single track approaches to the 
Queen City, The Little Miami RR down the Little Miami River valley and its 
interchange south of Morrow with the CL&N's Middletown & Cincinnati spur 
serving the Armco Steel works, doing enough business to require its own yard, 
New Reed yard, just south of the plant on the west side of Cincinnati-Dayton 
Pike (old US 25) and the Richmond & Cincinnati through Hamilton and then up 
the Seven-Mile Creek valley through Eaton to Richmond.;-))
Tom V.

Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio;
on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the 
Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part 
of the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for 
non-motorized intercity travel.

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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:55:11 -0500
From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] railroad print

I never heard of them running there, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody
found 1 or 2 exceptions.   I have a Ted Xaras print that shows a northbound
MP-54 on the center track and a northbound GG-1 with Congressional on the
southbound track.  I don't ever remember seeing the local trains use the center
track.   BTW, will your Wilmington station include the center umbrella shelter?

John Ryan

DWa9975062@aol.com wrote:

> Guys - I recently acquired a print done by a well known artist who has done
> numerous paintings that have been in many railroad related magazines. This
> print is of the Wilmington Station and you are looking down the tracks
> towards the center platform. On one side of the platform is a GG1 and on the
> other is a BP20 passenger shark in Tuscan livery. Did they run BP20s through
> Wilmington or is this a little artistic license? Either way it is a gorgeous
> print.
> Dayna


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X-eGroups-From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:55:11 -0500
From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [PRR-FAX] MP / OP = Sharks in Wilmington ? railroad print

From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>

I never heard of them running there, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody
found 1 or 2 exceptions.   I have a Ted Xaras print that shows a northbound
MP-54 on the center track and a northbound GG-1 with Congressional on the
southbound track.  I don't ever remember seeing the local trains use the center
track.   BTW, will your Wilmington station include the center umbrella shelter?

John Ryan

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From: "Steve Hipes" <sthipes@hotmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] Train symbol help
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:59:28 PST

I'm working on a project regarding the changes to the PRR west of 
Pittsburgh.  I have a list of train symbols from around 1965/1966 but need 
to verity origin/destination.  Are there any train symbol/schedule gurus out 
there who might be willing to help?  Any hhelp would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Steve
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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:20:03 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser X31f is listed on their web page

Stuart and the list,

I seem to be having better luck than you.  I've emailed Bowser several times
(most recently with J1 information) and I've gotten through with no problems.
Mr. English is busy, but he has answered every email I've sent him.

Doug

Stuthayer@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/17/00 7:04:08 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes:
>
> << Bowser's home page has
>  a link so you can email them. >>
>
> Good luck.  I have tried to email them several times, and everytime it gets
> kicked back undeliverable.
>
> Stuart Thayer


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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:39:29 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] M1/M1a mechanical lubricators

Hello list,

I've been doing more research, and I've discovered (more likely
rediscovered) that the M1a class was built without mechanical
lubricators.  I had always assumed that they'd had them from birth, but
plans in Pennypacker's Pennyslvania M1 (Classic Power 8) show the 6700s
without the lubricator, as built.

The earliest photo I've seen of an M1a with a mechanical lubricator is
dated 1936 in the Durham Book Pennysylvania Steam Locomotives and Trains
on page 44.  The 6736 is shown with the runningboard jogging further
forward, though I did have to do a bit of squinting.

One M1a in Pennypacker's book (the 6775) has a lubricator on the right
side in September 1938 (page 72).  Unlike the previous book, the
lubricator is very easy to see in this shot.   On page 103, there's a
shot of 6782 in September 1937, again with the lubricator on the right
side.  6799 is pictured on page 105 in 1946 with the lubricator on the
right side.  Until I'd looked closer, I'd always thought that PRR
engines with mechanical lubricators carried them on the right side.

Most M1/M1a/M1b engines appear to have the lubricators added sometime
during the late 30s and early 40s, and most have them on the left side.
However, as late as 1946, M1a 6794 could be seen without a lubricator
(Pennypacker, page 109).

I also looked in Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T, and on page 162,
there's a shot of M1 6903 in passenger helper service in 1950 without
the lubricator.  This engine was not dropped from the roster until
October 1955.  Did any M1 engines retire without a lubricator being
added?

Doug


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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:19:37 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser X31f is listed on their web page
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/18/00 7:20 PM, doug.kisala at (doug.kisala@mciworld.com) wrote:

> I seem to be having better luck than you.  I've emailed Bowser several times
> (most recently with J1 information) and I've gotten through with no problems.
> Mr. English is busy, but he has answered every email I've sent him.
> 
I also have no problem with e-mailing them or getting to their web site.

For photos of the X-31f's, they are also available in my eStore. Photos are
not yet in for the X-33's, K-9's, or K-11's, but I'll post them as soon as
they become available to dealers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:46:47 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Lettering on PRR cabin car ends

Hello list,

It appears that PRR lettered the ends of their cabin cars at some
point.  The NJ International book Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and
LIRR has several shots of cabins with end lettering.  There's a shot of
N5 477618 with both PRR and the car number above the door (the book
doesn't have page numbers, so you're going to have to trust me).  This
is a builder's photo from 1929.

There's a color shot of an elderly ND with PRR above the right hand
window (not centered above the door) with no car number visible.

There's also a shot of N5c 477829 (one of the cars Bowser has modelled),
and the PRR is barely visible above the door.  Finally, there are a few
shots of N6b cabins with the PRR to the right of the door above the
window.

My question to the list:  can any of you provide some sort of time frame
for these lettering changes?  It appears to me that at least in the 20s,
the PRR and car number were included, but this practice seems to have
been discontinued at least by the time the N5c class was built.

Thanks in advance!

Doug


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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:27:00 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser X31f is listed on their web page

Attention all: For those of you who collect Pennsy timetables, I have some 
specials for you to help fill in any gaps you may have:

3 Form 1s from early 1960s for 7.50 including shipping.
Limited Number of May 1953 Form 1 with Grif Teller artwork on cover 3.00 
including shipping. If interested, please contact:

James Mancuso
56B South Main Street
Perry, NY 14530

Also see my eBay listings under GeneralJim1 for some terrific bargains I am 
sure you will enjoy adding to your collections. Thank you.

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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:00:42 EST
Subject: [PRR] South Wall/ Wilminton Station

For those of you who would like to take a look I have posted on our website a 
scan of the south wall of the main building of the Wilmington Station. It has 
not been cleaned up but is straight from the mold. The east and west walls 
will be coming soon and I plan to paint one up and scan that in soon.
Dayna
www.trainstuffllc.com

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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:40:10 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati. or Columbus? which is best to model as PRR?

In a message dated 3/18/00 11:44:40 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
LINESWEST@aol.com writes:

<< Hmmm, I always thought Cincinnati would offer the most challenges with the 
 B&O, PRR, NYC, and C&O passing through the city E-W and interchanging with 
 the L&N, Southern, and N&W to the south, plenty of manufacturing and the 
 rail-barge interchange plus the CL&N tunnel through Walnut Hill at the head 
 of the Deer Creek Valley (Gilbert Avenue area.) >>

Tom,

I did up a trackplan for a 25'x25' two car garage that followed the PRR from 
Oasis to Pendleton.  It included all the highlights: Pendleton, Undercliff, 
Red Bank Jct., and the N&W's Clare yard and interchange.  There was also the 
possibility of including some of the Dayton Street Ry.  To be honest, I have 
never had any trackplan fall together so nicely.

    << And you could always complicate an operating session by sending in 
 varnish pulled by a T-1 4-4-4-4 whose drawbar must be broken to turn the 
 beast at on the too short turntable at the Pendleton Engine house. >>

Wouldn't that engine be serviced at the CUT engine terminal, or are we 
talking an earlier era?

 << Another 
 challenge would be managing traffic on the single track approaches to the 
 Queen City, The Little Miami RR down the Little Miami River valley and its 
 interchange south of Morrow with the CL&N's Middletown & Cincinnati spur 
 serving the Armco Steel works, doing enough business to require its own 
yard, 
 New Reed yard, just south of the plant on the west side of Cincinnati-Dayton 
 Pike (old US 25) and the Richmond & Cincinnati through Hamilton and then up 
 the Seven-Mile Creek valley through Eaton to Richmond.;-))
 Tom V. >>

All of this was handled by a hidden staging yard on the trackplan I described 
above.  Now if the focus of a Cincinnati layout is the single track lines 
coming in from the North, then I would simulate Undercliff with staging 
tracks.  To attempt to do both would require a much larger layout built as 2 
decks possibly.  That would interesting also.  Maybe I should get some paper 
and a pencil, and see what it would look like.

Stuart Thayer

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Subject: [PRR] H9 Air tanks
From: Fred G Rea <fredrea@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:44:12 EST

I have a Bowser H9 waiting for me to finish detailing and paint It.  It
looks entirely to "naked" under the cab.  I notice some photos, such as
the Spring 2000 Keystone, pg 45, show large air tanks, with their axes
vertical, under the cab.  Can any one tell me what the time and location
windows were for these.  I am particularly interested in the New
Philadelphia branch of the C&P around 1948.  

Also, are HO versions of these tanks made commercially?

Thanks,

Fred Rea

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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:58:50 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser X31f is listed on their web page

In a message dated 3/18/00 4:59:21 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes:

<< I seem to be having better luck than you.  I've emailed Bowser several 
times
 (most recently with J1 information) and I've gotten through with no problems.
 Mr. English is busy, but he has answered every email I've sent him. >>

I'll try again.  Thanks.

Stuart Thayer

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:19:27 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Lettering on PRR cabin car ends

In a message dated 3/18/2000 6:34:15 PM Central Standard Time, 
doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes:

<< My question to the list:  can any of you provide some sort of time frame
 for these lettering changes?  It appears to me that at least in the 20s,
 the PRR and car number were included, but this practice seems to have
 been discontinued at least by the time the N5c class was built. >>

 A short, simple answer is that they were removed between 1920 and 1930, most 
from 1927-30.  They were restored to wood cars from 1956 on.  Steel  cars 
from 1956 to 1960 had letters and numbers restored.  N8 started with PRR only 
and numbers were added  (can't read the drawing date).

Bob Zoeller

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From: "Trombone Man" <trombone@alltel.net>
Subject: [PRR] re PRR:  Oil Creek area question
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 07:22:43 -0500





>>Very informative.  I am going to schedule a trip in June.  >Thanks.
>
>>Any other RRs out there?
>
>>Lew Matt
>
    The Kiski Junction RR is at Schenley in southern Armstrong County and
runs on a portion of the former PRR along the easter side of the Allegheny
River.  They would like to expand north to Ford City, PA.

    This news article appeared in the Leader Times of Kittanning:

(begin quote)
March 17, 2000

County supports extending and enhancing the lines
By MICHAEL MILLER---Staff Writer
    Armstrong County has a burgeoning industry - the railroad.

    The Armstrong County Board of Commissioners unanimously approved the
formation of the new Armstrong County Rail Authority to keep the county's
rails and get some of the old rails back.

    Currently, the county has two major businesses interested in maintaining
the rail service in the area, the Kiski Junction Railroad and Rosebud Mining
Co.

    Commissioner Homer Crytzer said at a meeting about the rail authority
held last week that the formation of the authority was not just for the two
businesses but for the whole county.

    On the top of the commissioners list for the railroad is getting a line
back into the proposed development projects in Ford City.

    "(Getting the railroad extended) would only enhance the Ford City
project," said Commissioner James Scahill.

    The formation of the authority was also a necessary step for a planned
extension of the Kiski Valley Railroad in the state's capital projects, he
said.

    Scahill said at last week's meeting that "he tried every tactic and
maneuver to keep the rail lines in Armstrong County in operation," and
expressed regret at yesterday's meeting that an authority was not formed at
that time to help save the rails.

    "We hate to abandon our railroads," Scahill said. The new authority
would focus on attempting to acquire land for rail lines and maintaining and
supporting current rail lines, including those owned by Pittsburg and
Shawmut and the Buffalo and Pittsburgh railroads.

    The authority would have to work in conjunction with the Allegheny
Valley Land Trust, which currently owns the right-of-way on several former
rail lines, according to Commissioner Jack Dunmire.

    "The land trust has agreed to work with us," Dunmire said.

    A formal submission to the state for the formation of the authority will
be made in the next month, Dunmire said. The commissioners are currently
looking for people to fill the five-person board which will make up the
authority.

    Appointments for the board should be announced at the commissioner's
April 6 meeting, Scahill said.

(end quote)

The Kiski Junction RR does offer tourist rides.



DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor

       www.geocities.com/armconband



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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:21:23 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser X31f is listed on their web page
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/18/00 11:13 PM, lew matt at (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote:

> Please share Lou English's e-mail address and the Bowser web site URL.
> 
http://www.bowser-trains.com

bowser@mail.csrlink.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
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Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:33:26 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Larry Reynolds' Layout
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Yesterday I had the opportunity to join in on an op session on Larry
Reynolds' "Altoona Area" layout. Wow! If anyone ever gets a chance to do
this, do it!

He's using Digitrax Chief DCC, mostly with radio throttles. A few of us were
asked at the last minute to bring our own radio throttles due to the
expected turnout -- 12-15, I think. Fellow listers Eugene Nowland and Bruce
Smith (from Alabama) were there, along with Burce's brother Dave, Doug (from
Ken McCorry's group), and Jim Hertzog (who formerly ran the Lehigh & New
England but is working on a Reading layout now).

Larry has an incredible array of motive power and detailed passenger
equipment. Most of the locos also had Soundtraxx systems. Wow does that make
a difference!

I started by running the eastbound Broadway down the mountain, through to
HUNT, with AP22's at the head. I than ran her back west.

Next was the westbound Liberty Limited, with EP20's. Traffic was really
backed up coming out of Altoona. Somehow they had gotten Bruce Smith's huge
train, led by a pair of J's, onto track 4, where my passenger train was
supposed to go. Larry's layout normally has the helpers returning on track 3
(rather than 2), but I waited patiently for a pair of BP50 helpers to finish
downgrade and then they cleared me for track 2. I really had to lay on the
throttle up hill so that I could meet the head end of Bruce's drag right at
The Curve!!! Both Bruce and I snapped photos of the meet. Afterwards I took
the train back eastward.

On my last run of the day I had a manifest freight headed west with three
units at head.

Larry also had a nice Spirit of St. Louis train with BP20's at head.

I'll post photos to Larry's web site in a few days.

     http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/reynolds/reynolds.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
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------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: "jbreon" <jbreon@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Larry Reynolds' Layout
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:58:14 -0500

The "other" Jerry B. wrote:
>Yesterday I had the opportunity to join in on an op session on Larry
>Reynolds' "Altoona Area" layout. Wow! If anyone ever gets a chance to do
>this, do it!

Darn, how did I miss out on this? Actually, I had to work all day yesterday,
but it sure sounded fun. I do remember Larry's post about operators wanted.
I've got to hook up with Larry and compare layouts soon!
Jerry Breon





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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:07:34 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Update of PRRT&HS website

Hello list,

The PRRT&HS has recently updated it's website, and one of the additions
is a modeller's page.  There's only one entry, by a gentleman from Japan
who's scratchbuilt a gorgeous GG1.  You can link to the Society's page
through Jerry's Keystone Crossings or directly at www.prrths.com.

Doug


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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:10:42 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] M1a mechanical lubricators

Hello list,

Just when I was certain that no M1a engines had mechanical lubricators
as built,  I opened up Pennsy Power I to page 198, and there was a shot
of Lima built M1a 6775 with the mechanical lubricator on the right side.

Of course, this opens up another can of worms.  Why didn't the Baldwin
and Juniata (actually, by this time it was the Altoona Works) engines
have the lubricators as built?  How many of the Lima engines had the
lubricators as built?

The more I research, the more I realize what I don't know can drive me
slightly crazy.

Doug


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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:05:50 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Larry Reynolds' Layout

I thought this list was supposed to be about the Pennsylvania Railroad, its 
history and operations. Though modeling the railroad  is all well and good. 
Us historians have been overwhelmed by the ever growing manure pile of 
irrelevant tripe that has been bandied about ever since I myself got involved 
with this. It is supposed to be PRR-talk, not a manure pile of irrelavant 
tripe. In as much as I respect those who wish to model the railroad, the  
true importance of the purpose of PRR-talk seems to have gotten lost in the 
ever growing manure pile of tripe and trivia, much of  which seems to have 
little to do with the Pennsylvania Railroad. I am trying to research a book 
on the  railroad, but this manure pile of tripe has made it so difficult for 
me to get much in the way of useful information about the Pennsy that I am 
going to have to go elsewhere. Enjoy the smell of the manure.

JM

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:27:36 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] H9 Air tanks

Fred and the list,

My Spring Keystone hasn't arrived yet, so until I see the photograph I can't
be certain.  However, it sounds to me like you're talking about an H6sb, and
not an H8s/H9s engine.  I've never seen pictures of the H9s with vertical
under cab air tanks.  The standard caveat is that someone will have
photographic evidence I haven't seen.

All of the H8s/H9s/H10s engines I've seen have had two air tanks, one under
each running board.

However, I can offer some advice about detailing under the cab of an H9s.
About two years ago I redetailed my H9s to represent H10s 7688, and I also
came across the naked under-cab area.  For starters, add Cal Scale's 190-380
toe boards (there's another, smaller size for the smaller steel cabs; be
sure and get the one I've specified, as I made this mistake myself).

You should also add a pair of Bowser's 90071 ash pans.  These are intended
for the G5s kit, but I used them on my H10s conversion, and they worked
well.

In the December 1990 MR, Tom Busack wrote about detailing Bowser E6s
engines.  He had a really neat way to make under-cab braces for the right
and left side.  You can order this article through interlibrary loan, or
friends may have a copy.  Mr. Busack also added a wooden view block below
the cab; you could do this too.  On my H10s, between the stoker, the water
piping, the toe boards, and the air pipes, things looked busy enough.

My H10s has a stoker, but no H9s engines were ever stoker fired, so don't
worry about this.

You should add piping running up to the injectors (which were mounted on the
backhead in the H9s).

Finally, should I be incorrect about the air tanks, you could use Bowser's
part 90460.  These are meant for the A5s kit, but I'm going to use them to
redetail my Lambert H6sb to represent the 2846.

Enjoy your kit!

Doug

Fred G Rea wrote:

> I have a Bowser H9 waiting for me to finish detailing and paint It.  It
> looks entirely to "naked" under the cab.  I notice some photos, such as
> the Spring 2000 Keystone, pg 45, show large air tanks, with their axes
> vertical, under the cab.  Can any one tell me what the time and location
> windows were for these.  I am particularly interested in the New
> Philadelphia branch of the C&P around 1948.
>
> Also, are HO versions of these tanks made commercially?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Fred Rea
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:26:31 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: unsubscribe.

Thanks I will try it that way. I tried the direct way only the Mail Daemon 
keeps kicking it back to me. Which is why I want Steve Case and the llikes of 
Bill Gates dead.

JM.

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:31:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] H9 Air tanks

Doug,

     I can back up Fred's posting. It is an H-9. I was curious myself so
I took a look at the photo. I thought it may have been a mislabeled
photo but it isn't. Before I looked I thought it may have been an H6-sb.
Who knows, this may be a one of a kind variation on the H-9 air tanks
set up, I surely havn't seen any other wih this arrangment. I thought
this was only done on A5's B'6's and H6sb's. As always, The Pennsy did
what they felt like doing.....Gary 




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:01:11 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] horse cars out west


 Hi all...

  I'm a little late getting this out,but here is something i found.
  In the little book "Pennsylvania Railroad-K-4s" "steam locomotives
  of yesteryear" by Harry P. Albrecht there is a picture on page 17
  of K-4s No.5493 taken by Martin Flattley,Jr. The text says it was
  taken at Chicago. This engine also has a long distance tender
  (250-P-75) and since it does'nt mention a year the photo was
  taken i would guess it to be during the 1930's.

  Anyway behind the engine are two B-74a or B-74b class horse cars.
  As the text mentions the train to be the Liberty Limited
  its my guess its a east-bound train as the tender is loaded up.
The Liberty Limited ran through "horse country" on its eastern end
(Maryland and near Delaware) and connected directly to two horse
  racing tracks and ran near others right in Maryland.
I would also guess the horse cars came off in either Baltimore or
Washington (remember this is a top PRR train,no time enroute to switch)
  and were moved from there to the race tracks (Bowie and Timonium were on
  line). I'm again guessing that they are coming from some track
  near Chicago. (horse racing was hot during the 1930's).

                              Til Later
                              Hank Mummert


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From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Larry Reynolds' Layout
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:57:13 -0800

Jim--I for one am really beginning to have a problem.  In my pursuit
of my PRR interests I can not separate <its history and operations>
from modeling.  I am becoming somewhat intolerant of your insistence
that we all do so.  However, in the spirit of keeping this on the
single track of pursuing our PRR interests, take a look at this
message which I recently sent to another list.
<
<
Hi all--Why I have DCC:   The Ore Train--It is a beautiful day in May,
1954, in Northumberland, central Pennsylvania.  But down at the PRR
yard the guys have been too busy to notice. S-390 has to be assembled
and put out on the road--a day like any other spring day.  Earlier
this morning four Decapods, class I1sa, 4620, 4628, 4644, and 4308,
were marked up for today's trip to the LV interchange at Mt. Carmel.
Hostlers have been topping off coal and water.  All morning two
switchers, today an H9s 2-8-0 and a Diesel Alco S-4, have been pushing
and pulling hoppers with iron ore and coal as well as a handful of
boxcars around, sometimes even working both ends of the same track.
There is even one of those black BeanO four bay hoppers.  The crews
have been called, and we watch as they check over their charges, the
enginemen on the ground poking and prodding with oil cans and waste,
firemen intently getting the fires perfect.  One engine, 4628, is just
coming off the turntable, moving very slowly, but without hesitation
onto the ready track.  Now it's time.  The switchers have moved on to
other chores, one heading to the cabin track.  First one, then all
four of the Decapods begin to move toward the eastbound departure
yard.  What a sight;  they don't call them hippos for nothing.  Two,
4628 and 4308, move toward the front of their train, the other two
assigned to the rear.  First 4308 backs down to the first boxcar and
makes the joint, then 4628.  On the other end, 4644 eases up to the
last hopper, then 4620.  As soon as 4620 is coupled, the H9s brings up
the N5 cabin, coupling it to the rear of 4620's tank.  We wait as the
air is pumped up, brakes checked.  We notice that the enginemen are
absolutely intent on the task at hand; the firemen even now are
tinkering with their fires.  Suddenly there is a blast from 4628's
whistle, and all four enginemen open their throttles, unleashing over
360,000 pounds of tractive effort.  Amazing what a little coal and
water can do.  Slowly S-390 gathers momentum, its motion felt as well
as observed as the hippos do exactly what they were designed to do 30
years earlier.

Reality?  No, but it is as close as we can get 46 years after the
fact.  That is why I have DCC, and I particularly like my Digitrax
system, although I use a variey of manufacturers' decoders.  On one
throttle of my handheld controller I can operate the lead Decs,
consisted together.  On the other throttle of the same controller I
can control the rear helpers.  Serious railroading, as it used to be.

Sound?  Not yet......but it is coming, as long as I remember to warn
my wife when S-390 is ready to go.  Now if their were only a way to
reproduce the smell of coal smoke.......
<
<
Now, was this a <manure pile of irrelavant tripe>?  I do not think so.
It was what happened (HISTORY), and how it was done (OPERATIONS) by
real professionals, men with integrity that we can only marvel at
today.

I wish you the best in your efforts to write a book on the PRR.
However, I would hope it is not a chronicle of boardroom machinations.
A book of PRR history should have lots of well captioned photos of
equipment and structures;  after all, out on the road was where men
made history happen.  I will be watching for it.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL




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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:58:49 EST
Subject: [PRR] GENJIM

Boy oh boy!

Did I miss something here or is a list like this for all who wish to 
participate and what they wish to share.  And of course like most wannabee 
historians, they always believe we modelers are something less and of course 
are not historians, because being a modeler, by default, means you can't be 
both.  Well, that's the real pile of tripe and dung!  I just spent seven plus 
months on research of the PRR PA's and when I would post questions to the 
list Jim M. never answered one question.  So, I guess he will have to 
research his book elsewhere.  For the rest of this list we will survive, I 
think.  As I have always said I have a passion for modeling but I am a 
historian by damn...  But that doesn't mean I am not a historian.  I am not 
researching a book, but I have been writing articles since 1989 and still at 
it.  Everyday I learn something new, and I have always been willing to share 
what I know, and what I do.  I figured out Jim with his post on mergers...  
Back to business as normal in PRR-Talk land.  Jerry did I ever tell you how 
thankful I am you made this list for us?  Jerry, Thanks a Lot!  Really do 
appreciate the ability to escape and share PRR discussions in your forum.  

Greg Martin  from LINES way out WEST in...  Salem, OR 

<< I thought this list was supposed to be about the Pennsylvania Railroad, 
its history and operations. Though modeling the railroad is all well and 
good. Us historians have been overwhelmed by the ever growing manure pile of 
irrelevant tripe that has been bandied about ever since I myself got involved 
with this. It is supposed to be PRR-talk, not a manure pile of irrelevant  
tripe. In as much as I respect those who wish to model the railroad, the true 
importance of the purpose of PRR-talk seems to have gotten lost in the ever 
growing manure pile of tripe and trivia, much of which seems to have little 
to do with the Pennsylvania Railroad. I am trying to research a book on the 
railroad, but this manure pile of tripe has made it so difficult for me to 
get much in the way of useful information about the Pennsy that I am going to 
have to go elsewhere. Enjoy the smell of the manure.
 
 JM >>

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From: GenJim833@aol.com
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:14:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] GENJIM

waybill consist of my PRR book includes the followiing:

1. Brief History and description
2.General Operations- Operational Region make up in the last years and diesel 
roster.
3. Passenger Operations, including commuter
4. Freight Operations as follows: A. Carload.B. TrucTRain. C. Unit. D. 
Package Car.
5. Timetable forms issued over the latter years.
6. Principal Operating Documents Required on Duty.

More to be added as I develop information or so I hope.  I apologize for the 
badmouthing. I just want to get this thing done and get it available to all 
of you as soon as possible. I will not make no excuses.  I  might just print 
up copies  of what I have now and send  what I have to as many of you as I 
can so you can have a sneak preview.

JM

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:29:45 -0500
From: Jeff Knorek <jknorek@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] GENJIM

You could also put it up on a website, pictures and all.
That way it can grow in stages as the info turns up.

JK

GenJim833@aol.com wrote:

>  I  might just print
> up copies  of what I have now and send  what I have to as many of you as I
> can so you can have a sneak preview.


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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:35:59 -0500
Subject: LISTMASTER - Re: [PRR] Larry Reynolds' Layout
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/19/00 11:05 AM, GenJim833@aol.com at (GenJim833@aol.com) wrote:

> I thought this list was supposed to be about the Pennsylvania Railroad, its
> history and operations. Though modeling the railroad  is all well and good.
> Us historians have been overwhelmed by the ever growing manure pile of
> irrelevant tripe that has been bandied about ever since I myself got involved
> with this. It is supposed to be PRR-talk, not a manure pile of irrelavant
> tripe. In as much as I respect those who wish to model the railroad, the
> true importance of the purpose of PRR-talk seems to have gotten lost in the
> ever growing manure pile of tripe and trivia, much of  which seems to have
> little to do with the Pennsylvania Railroad. I am trying to research a book
> on the  railroad, but this manure pile of tripe has made it so difficult for
> me to get much in the way of useful information about the Pennsy that I am
> going to have to go elsewhere. Enjoy the smell of the manure.
> 
The charter of this list CLEARLY states that this list addresses both
prototypical AND modeling concerns.

Not only was your flaming response directed to the list instead of to the
sender, but the original sender was also the listmaster himself!!!

If you are unsure of the purpose of the list AND how to react to problems
you see with it, please visit the list's page at

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrtalk.html

This is not the first time you have made inappropriate outbursts on this
lists. Continued behavior in this vein will result in revocation of list
privileges. 

This is a public warning to others on the list who have behaved similarly
recently. Thank you.
--------------------------------------
Listmaster
Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
http://www.dsop.com
listmaster@dsop.com


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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:54:11 -0500
Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- GENJIM
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

I was surprised to learn that "GenJim833@aol.com" -- or "General Jim" -- as
some have called him, is Jim Mancuso. He did not always use this "handle".

Anyway, I've received dozens of complaints about him over the past week or
so, and I've decided that his outbursts of today have gone too far.

He has been permanently banned from the list (via that address, anyway).
--------------------------------------
Listmaster
Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
http://www.dsop.com
listmaster@dsop.com


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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:29:03 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Bel-Del Branch
From: Norman O Mueller <nmueller4@juno.com>

 What type of authority (Timetable, train order, etc.) was required to
operate on the Bel-Del Branch in New Jersey?  What type of switch (I
assume manually-operated) controlled the access to the Flemington Branch
in Lambertville?

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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:47:24 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Larry Reynolds' Layout

Dear List:

Ignoring, for a moment, the merits of your complaint with GenJim, I simply
can't let the following comment pass:

Stephen Hoxie wrote:

> I wish you the best in your efforts to write a book on the PRR.
> However, I would hope it is not a chronicle of boardroom machinations.
> A book of PRR history should have lots of well captioned photos of
> equipment and structures;  after all, out on the road was where men
> made history happen.

Really?  As someone who spent over eight years researching, and four years
writing a book on the Vandalia Line (and the Terre Haute banker who owned
it), I find that statement astonishingly offensive.  Wherever they were,
boardroom or boxcar, they all were important.  The protagonist in my
narrative was a remarkable and fascinating gentleman who managed to
checkmate the executives of the mighty PRR, and he did it in the boardroom.
And you're wrong: a book of PRR history should be accurate, well documented
and readable.  Pictures are secondary and best used as a supplement to
clarify and illustrate what's in the text.

In my efforts to get my own book published, I had to find and pay for the
pictures to be included.  But those pictures are not mine.  The book I
wrote, the effort I made, is in the text.  If you plan on judging my work,
be sure you know what it truly constitutes.

I am troubled by the idea that if it does not contain a lot of pictures, it
must not be very good.  What follows, therefore, is that Don Ball's Pennsy
book is superior to James Ward's masterful biography of J. Edgar Thomson.
Only a cretin or a fool would agree with that statement.  While one might
like the Ball book better for its photographs, most reasonable people would
see that Ward's biography was a much greater contribution to the
Pennsylvania's collected history (and, yes, it is also the better book).

You should know that my own manusript went off to the printer with
approximately 72 pictures supplied for inclusion, and that four weeks later,
I received a letter from the publisher asking me to cut 15 to 20 on my own
or they would cut that many themselves.  (I believe it had to do with the
economics of the project.)

I guess, then, that you should be forewarned:  If all that satisfies your
curiosity is a coffeetable-style book with a bunch of photographs, you'll
probably want to take a pass on my book when its released early next year.

Richard Wallis



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From: LINESWEST@aol.com
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 17:02:48 EST
Subject: [PRR] Need help with PRR reserach

Jim,

    Have you developed any information  about the weather crises of 1913 and 
their effects of on the bottom line in Philadelphia. It's said that the PRR 
never got over
the $29 million losses suffered by the Pennsylvania Co.and its subsidiaries 
in March 1913 a situation when adverse winter weather  the next February 
disrupted operations nearly systemwide, with the cumulative effect being to 
sap  company resources that its ended the first quarter of  1914 with less 
than $700,000 cash on hand and laid off 38,000 people (25,000 lines east   
and 13,000 Lines West)  and eliminated 120 trains from the schedules of the 
PRR Co., P. Co., and Panhandle.
    I am particularly interested in any leads you might have on the PRR Co. 
Boards thinking in deciding to still pay a dividend, albeit one slashed by 60 
percent. I'm also looking for information that would shed light on the P. 
CO's decision to build the N6 class of cabin cars instead of the 
state-of-the-art N5 design chosen by the folks down on Broad Street. Had 
there already been a joint investment in underframes with Lines East, what 
effect did the time frame specified Ohio's caboose safety act of 1913 have on 
the decision-making-process. Finally, can you point me to a definitive source 
that can tell me how many cars were built during the 13-year N6 program, 
ideally breaking them down into specific totals for each of the five design 
variations.
    I need this information for a prototype article accompanying articles on 
using the Gloor Craft N, HO and O scale kits to model each of the five 
variants in its seven (or is it six) lettering schemes.
    I am a writer of history who also builds historically accurate models of 
railroad prototypes. For me the activities are complimentary and necessary to 
preserve the heritage of the Standard Railroad of the World. As the PRR fades 
further from living memory, it will be the modelers who will preserve the 
past. I already joke that my fan trips are to libraries and museums.
    I makes me sad that you are so narrow minded that you can't accept ha we 
all bring different but still beautiful treasures to the table to share. Good 
luck with your research. It's fun. I'm buying a replacement tape drive next 
month so I will be able to recover my corporate genealogy of PRR Lines West 
with capsule histories of nearly 100 precursors or PRR subsidiaries that made 
up this system serving eight states.

Tom V.

Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio;
on Ohio's first cross-state rail line, the old Little Miami Railroad, the 
Panhandle's Springfield branch, PRR Columbus Div block station JS; now part 
of the 72-miile Springlield-Xenia-Milford Little Miami Scenic Trail for 
non-motorized intercity travel.

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From: "Miracle Castings Inc." <miracle-castings@on.aibn.com>
Subject: [PRR] GENJIM
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 18:14:32 -0500

Jerry wrote:

>Subject: LISTMASTER -- GENJIM
>From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
>Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:54:11 -0500

I> was surprised to learn that "GenJim833@aol.com" -- or "General Jim" >--
as
>some have called him, is Jim Mancuso. He did not always use this >"handle".

>Anyway, I've received dozens of complaints about him over the past >week or
>so, and I've decided that his outbursts of today have gone too far.

>He has been permanently banned from the list (via that address, >anyway).
>--------------------------------------
>Listmaster

Jerry, are you saying you threw him onto the Manure Pile of Tripe and
Trivia? ;-) Hopefully the Manure Pile of Tripe and Trivia will swallow him
up in it's Manurey, Tripey, Trivianess, and he'll not be seen again!

Pat



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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:04:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] H9 Air tanks

List,

    Back to the photo in the new issue of the Keystone of the H9s with
vertical air tanks under the cab. Here is my question. H9 #1920 which is
pictured in the photo, has the normal air tanks under the walkway as
well. Why would it need the tanks under the cab as well? Could it be it
needed the extra air supply because this loco was used for Passenger
Service in the Fredrick area as the photo caption states? Would the H9
need more air than it was normally supplied for frieght service, for
better control of the Loco in passenger service? Just a thought.....Gary




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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From: bobsin@nac.net
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:21:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bel-Del Branch

I have employee timetables only from the last few years of 
operation of the Bel-Del, but a quick perusal of Warren Lee's 
excellent book "Down Along the Old Bel-Del" shows no indication 
that the line was ever signalled.  So operation was no doubt by 
timetable and train order.  Eastern District Timetable No. 21, April 
24, 1966, shows only one part-time interlocking on the whole line, 
at Frenchtown; elsewhere there are only block-limit stations 
northward from MG Interlocking (1.4 miles from Fair in Trenton on 
the Main Line - New York Division); the block-limit stations (which 
are just fixed signals -- signs with reflectors, in other words) were 
at WB, GW (Washington Crossing), Moore (4 miles south of 
Lambertville), RK (Raven Rock), the Frenchtown interlocking, 
interlocking station, and block station, MD (Milford), HD four miles 
north of MD, Kent at PG south and north of Phllipsburg, DY 
between Phillipsburg and Martins Creek, CR north of Martins 
Creek, and G, a (manned) block station just south of Phillipsburg.W

WB, GW, and Moore were controlled by MG; RK, MD and HD were 
controlled by Frenchtown when open, otherwise by MG; the rest 
were controlled from G block station.

This timetable no longer showed the junction with the branch to 
Flemington, which may have been out of service or operated as 
industrial trackage by this time.  Note that Lambertville itself was 
not even a block-limit station by 1966, and that the junction itself is 
some distance north of the station at Lambertville; Lee says the 
junction was called Flemington Junction, 0.48 miles north of the 
Lambertville depot, and was called locally "Bum Junction."

By 1970, the interlocking at Frenchtown had disappeared from the 
Penn Central operating timetable.  The last passenger trains ran on 
October 26, 1960, when gas-electric No. 4658, operating as Train 
2372, arrived in Phillipsburg for the last time.  I myself had the 
pleasure of riding the southbound morning train once from 
Lambertville to Trenton, a few years before the service died.

Today of course the line is abandoned, except for the once-sleepy 
Flemington Branch and a mile or so of track in Lambertville, all this 
operated by the Black River & Western Railroad, which connects 
at Flemington via the traditional PRR-CNJ connection to the ex-
CNJ branch (originally to Somerville), which then runs only a few 
miles over to the Norfolk Southern (ex-LV) Lehigh Line interchange. 
The Lehigh Valley's own short branch into Flemington (which 
boasted commuter service from Penn Station NY until at least 
around 1960) never connected in Flemington with the PRR or CNJ.

Hope this helps a bit!

John Bobsin
Basking Ridge, NJ

On 19 Mar 00, at 16:29, Norman O Mueller wrote:

>  What type of authority (Timetable, train order, etc.) was required 
to
> operate on the Bel-Del Branch in New Jersey?  What type of 
switch (I
> assume manually-operated) controlled the access to the 
Flemington
> Branch in Lambertville?
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:37:04 -0500
Subject: [PRR] H9 tanks and our list
From: Fred G Rea <fredrea@juno.com>

Thanks to those who helped me with my H9 tank question.  Looks like I
have a wide range of choices.

Buy the way,  last nite I had 138 messages from PRR Talk in my in basket.
 The overwhelming majority were of no interest to me, the others were
real gems.  I find the delete button so easy to use, it was no problem. 
I love the list and sense no foul smell, at least since it got one
subscriber smaller!

Fred Rea
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re: None
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:30:14 -0500

Checked the MP 229 of 11/1/44
H9s 1920 was equipped with a whistle and acknowledger. 
Cos

Why would it need the tanks under the cab as well? Could it be it
> needed the extra air supply because this loco was used for Passenger
> Service in the Fredrick area as the photo caption states? Would the H9
> need more air than it was normally supplied for frieght service, for
> better control of the Loco in passenger service? Just a thought.....Gary



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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:09:42 EST
Subject: [PRR] Pennsy History Books (was Larry Reynolds Layout)

Folks,
Earlier, Stephen Hoxie wrote, to a Gentleman Jim:
----
I wish you the best in your efforts to write a book on the PRR.
> However, I would hope it is not a chronicle of boardroom machinations.
> A book of PRR history should have lots of well captioned photos of
> equipment and structures;  after all, out on the road was where men
> made history happen.
-------------------
To which Richard Wallis offered many differing opinions, one of which was 
that a biography of J.E.Thomson was a much  better bit of history than Ball's 
Pennsy in the 1940's-50's. Well now, corporate history can be interesting (in 
very moderate doses), but to say it contributes more to the railroad's 
collective history is pretty subjective. I have to feel an "action" book such 
as Ball's is far liklier to attract interest, and will have a far broader 
appeal. Most financial minipulation is repetitive and you've seen it once 
you've basiclly seen it all, as regards 19th Century boardrooms. To say it 
constitutes better historical study is like saying Michael Grant is a better 
historian than Francis Parkman , to which I say B as in "b' and S as in "s". 
Most of us love the Pennsy for it's soul, not for it's financial records.
And as a dedicated PRR historian once said,  I better sign off before I 
wander too far into the piles of tripe and trivial manure.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:15:16 +0100
From: Burkhard Sanner <Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: Re: [PRR] H9 tanks and our list



Fred G Rea scribit:

> Buy the way,  last nite I had 138 messages from PRR Talk in my in basket.
>  The overwhelming majority were of no interest to me, the others were
> real gems.  I find the delete button so easy to use, it was no problem.
> I love the list ...

For a person living several thousand miles
away from any PRR trackage like me, the
list is an absolutely phantastic source of
information, even if a lot of the stuff is of
limited interest. I strongly support the lines
wrote by Fred Rea!

Regards

Burkhard Sanner
Germany



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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 04:04:46 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] GENJIM

--- "Miracle Castings Inc."
<miracle-castings@on.aibn.com> wrote:
> Jerry wrote:
> 
> >Subject: LISTMASTER -- GENJIM
> >From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
> >Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:54:11 -0500
> 
> I> was surprised to learn that "GenJim833@aol.com"
> -- or "General Jim" >--

Apparently not "Gentleman Jim".

=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


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From: "Sam Vastano" <svastano@hotmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Marker lights on T1
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:31:32 EST

List,

I am now putting together my Bowser T1 kit and was wondering. The 2 marker 
lights that are on the front of the number boards were they a certain color? 
I have used mini lamps to light them but was wondering if they were a color.

Thank you

Sam

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:02:56 -0500
From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Questions



BPX29@aol.com wrote: (In part)
> 
> The infamous 14 section car is another challenge. You might consider the IHC
> 12 section using the NERS 14 S conversion kit, and NERS AC ducts and
> underbody. He was going to offer thermopane windows but said there wasn;t
> enough interest. I have the same problem with this car as the B&O used them
> as well, but I'm gonna cheat and use my Walthers car updated with AC. I don't
> know that all Pennsy's 14S cars got the thermopanes (I know not all the 12S
> cars did) anyway, and most folks won't complain about the lack of rounded
> windows, you'd think.
> Well, good luck.
> Barry Peltier

===================================================
PRR did the betterment beauty job on all their 14 sec pullmans (except
maybe SAMUEL MORSE).. This means you will need a high profile arch roof
tapering at the end to the std streamlined height.  You will also need
to put skirts on the car.  The PRR betterments did not have thermopane
windows.  That one headache you don't have!  Consider running a 12-1 as
a protection car.  Its easier!
-- 
Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:58:09 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Diesel Horns
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

In yet another example of why PRR-Talk combines prototype and modeling
interests, I need some info on horns so I can get it right on the model!

My visit to Larry Reynolds' layout is going to be an expensive one. I've
gotta have sound!

But which Soundtraxx units are correct? Don't have to remind you that I am
modeling 1954. That, I think, would mean that all of my EMD units would be
considered "1st generation"...correct me if I am wrong.

Which of the following Soundtraxx horns...

    823201    EMD 1st Generation w/Wabco Airhorn
    823202    EMD 1st Generation w/3-chime Leslie Horn
    823203    EMD 1st Generation w/Nathan Airhorn
    823204    EMD 1st Generation W/Wabco E2 Single Chime Airhorn
    823205    EMD 1st Generation w/Nathan M5 Five Chime Airhorn

...are appropriate (if any) for my...

    Class EP20 EMD E7's (got two sets of ABA's)
    Class EP22 EMD E8's (got one pair of A's)
    Class EFP15 EMD FP7
    Class EF15 EMD F3's (got an ABA lashup)
    Class ES12 EMD SW9's (got two)
    Class ES15m EMD GP7's (got five, but may sell two)

Moving right along, which of these...

    823211    ALCO w/Webco 3-Chime Airhorn
    823212    ALCO w/Leslie 3-Chime Airhorn
    823213    ALCO w/Nathan 3-Chime Airhorn
    823214    ALCO w/Wabco E2 Single Chime Action
    823215    ALCO w/Nathan M5 Five Chime Action

...are appropriate (if any) for my...

    Class AP20 Alco PA-1's (got two sets of ABA's)
    Class AS10 Alco S-2
    Class AS10 Alco S-4
    Class AS10s Alco RS-1
    Class AF15 Alco FA-2's (have an AB lashup)

All for now!!!

---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:27:24 -0600
From: John Sheets <johnit@interaccess.com>
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Bel-Del Branch

John wrote:

> I have employee timetables only from the last few years of 
> operation of the Bel-Del, but a quick perusal of Warren Lee's 
> excellent book "Down Along the Old Bel-Del" shows no indication 
> that the line was ever signalled. 

There is (was) a one aspect position light signal lying along the abandoned
roadbed about 1/2 way between Trenton and Lambertville on the Pennsylvania side,
viewable from the NJ side.

Also, as I did some consulting work at the then active James River plant south
of Phillipsburg several years ago, there was a lot of siganl boxes etc. along
the branch including some signal mast mounting blaocks.  

Now since most of this was no-where near any junctions or interlockings, it
would seem to indicate the Bel-Del had some sort of block signals.

Also PRR Eastern Reg EET  #18 form 1964 makes ref to: (PPG 199 - use of
signals)1027-A1 Belvidere Deleware Br - Frenchtown and crew action when they
encounter a dark "clear block indication".  Also, existence of 5 Block stations
and 10 block limit stations.

John

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:33:19 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] horse cars out west

Hank said:
>
>  I'm a little late getting this out,but here is something i found.
>  In the little book "Pennsylvania Railroad-K-4s" "steam locomotives
>  of yesteryear" by Harry P. Albrecht there is a picture on page 17
>  of K-4s No.5493 taken by Martin Flattley,Jr. The text says it was
>  taken at Chicago. This engine also has a long distance tender
>  (250-P-75) and since it does'nt mention a year the photo was
>  taken i would guess it to be during the 1930's.

Not to speak for Gary Mittner <G>, but I believe Gary has a copy of this
photo in his collection and it is dated 1938.

BTW, the tender is a welded 250-P-75 which was transferred to an M-1
(perhaps 6940?) in the early '40s.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry
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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:46:34 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Questions/14Section

Andy, and folks,
Thanks for the note Someone else has mentioned plans in March, 1966 RMC, which I went downstairs and dug up.(I knew there's a good reason I have every railroad mag I ever bought down there). The car in question was Andrew Carnegie, awaiting disposition in Northumberland, 1963.
Somewhere else, in Mainline Modeler I think, there's plans for another version of the 14s car.
Anyway, this car is a project I've been stashing up for a rainey week. The Pennsy version, I'm thinking, could be done passibly well with the Bethlehem " baloon roof" on the Walthers 14s car and using Northeastern streamline floor to get the skirting. That BCW roof fits well on AHM/IHC cars as well, but there the skirting would have to be done up with styrene. By the period that interests me, 1957, the skirting had been largely removed along the sides....but even then a 12s sub would be easier, to be sure. I'm more likely to do the B&O version at any rate, but Pennsy colors would look awfully nice on such a kitbash.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Bel-Del Branch
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 100 10:58:44 -0500 (EST)

John Sheets scribit:
> 
> [another] John wrote:
> 
> > I have employee timetables only from the last few years of 
> > operation of the Bel-Del, but a quick perusal of Warren Lee's 
> > excellent book "Down Along the Old Bel-Del" shows no indication 
> > that the line was ever signalled. 
 
> There is (was) a one aspect position light signal lying along the abandoned
> roadbed about 1/2 way between Trenton and Lambertville on the Pennsylvania side,
> viewable from the NJ side.
[snip]
> Now since most of this was no-where near any junctions or interlockings, it
> would seem to indicate the Bel-Del had some sort of block signals.

The line definitely had signals, just not a whole lot. It was manual block
for all of its distance or nearly so (sorry, my ETT is not here at work). Please
check out the interlocking/signal diagrams on my site. You may start at
   http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk
and click on the Philadelphia to New York Branches page.

As I recall, Bill Strassner worked this branch.  I don't know if he's a member
of PRR-Talk at the moment.  You may wish to contact him directly, or post to
PRR-FAX.

-- 
Mark D. Bej
bejm@eeg.ccf.org 

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:20:16 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Need help with PRR reserach

In a message dated 03/19/2000 17:09:55 Eastern Standard Time, 
LINESWEST@aol.com writes:

> I'm also looking for information that would shed light on the P. 
>  CO's decision to build the N6 class of cabin cars instead of the 
>  state-of-the-art N5 design chosen by the folks down on Broad Street. Had 
>  there already been a joint investment in underframes with Lines East, what 
>  effect did the time frame specified Ohio's caboose safety act of 1913 have 
> on 
>  the decision-making-process. 
Tom:

I can provide some help on the N6.  This is based upon a presentation made at 
a PRRT&HS convention and a presentation at a Pittsburgh Chapter meeting by 
Bob Johnson.  He has made a life long study of PRR cabin cars.  The N6 cars 
were a direct result of the Ohio 1913 safety act and were a Lines West 
exclusive development.  Most of the N6 cars were built by stretching previous 
classes of cabin cars.  Bob has a number of slides which clearly show how the 
older cars were spliced to add the required length.  The various window 
arrangements were the result of different splice locations.  This also 
accounted for the centered versus offset cupola location.

Rich Orr

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:43:26 -0600
From: John Sheets <johnit@interaccess.com>
Subject: [PRR] Manor, Pa Secondary track?

Mark wrote:

Mark Bej wrote:
>>  You may start at
>>    http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk
 

Wow , what a great site, thanks!  Say, do you know the junction 
name/history of a secondary track that ran off the main line at Manor, Pa up to
around Claridge?

Have not found a ref to it.  Appears to have been out of service for 
sometime, there was some talk of re-inventing it to an open coal mine about 15 
years ago,
near Harrison City

Thanks
John

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:37:38 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Whistle Sounds, was [PRR] Diesel Horns

>My visit to Larry Reynolds' layout is going to be an expensive one. I've
>gotta have sound!

Amen Brother!

>But which Soundtraxx units are correct?

While I don't need no stinkin diesels (unlike Jerry) I too had a question
regarding correctness.  First, in lieu of a true I-1 whistle, Larry's use
of the Soundtraxx "British L-1 Class Tank" sounded about as close to a PRR
banshee as I can differentiate (from recordings, having never heard the
original), so I'll be ordering these for my I-1s...now the questions...

What type of whistle would the L-1 mikes have had?
How about class A and B switchers?
How about class H consols?
How about classes J and Q?

I assume that the M-1, G-5 and E-6 had a whistle similar to the K-4, so
I'll be waiting on those to be released.

One lister responded to me privately suggesting the Dallee system for the
GG-1.  I have one of these, and one for an I-1.  The adavantage that I can
see of the Dallee system is that they make a GG-1, a T-1, and a PRR
"passenger" version.  The disadvantages of the Dallee systems are numberous
and include size (bigger than a breadbox comes to mind), "single track
play" meaning that ringing the bell causes the cuff to be inaudible, and
blowing the whistle causes the bell to stop etc, and you need to buy a
decoder too, making the cost the same as soundtraxx.  In order to use the
Dallee GG-1 sound system, I will have to convert one of my powered GG-1s
into a dummy as the thing is too big to fit into an HO GG-1 otherwise,
resulting in the requirement for a permanent "lash up".  I would have to do
the same thing for my brass P-5s :^(  So, on a cost basis, for DCC,
Soundtraxx and Dallee are equal, but Soundtraxx outperforms Dallee by a
mile...

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry
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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:57:26 -0500
From: "Robert L. Johnson" <rjohnson@capslock.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Need help with PRR reserach

Greetings to Rich and the list:

Since I'm mentioned in the following, I thought I should offer a few
clarifications.

SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I can provide some help on the N6.  This is based upon a presentation made at
> a PRRT&HS convention and a presentation at a Pittsburgh Chapter meeting by
> Bob Johnson.  He has made a life long study of PRR cabin cars. 

Not quite life long - just since 1969.

> The N6 cars were a direct result of the Ohio 1913 safety act...

Probably, but that's just an assumption based on secondary sources.  Tom
asks some interesting questions.  Researching the legislative history of
RR safety acts in various Lines West (and Lines East) states might be
very illuminating, both from what laws were passed and what ones were
proposed, but defeated.  I hope someone will take on the task.

> ...and were a Lines West exclusive development.

Not exclusive, although nearly so.  There were two N6b's rebuilt from
Northern Central NC's which carried numbers below 500000.

> Most of the N6 cars were built by stretching previous
> classes of cabin cars.  Bob has a number of slides which clearly show how the
> older cars were spliced to add the required length.  The various window
> arrangements were the result of different splice locations.

Not exactly.  The window locations were determined in some cases by the
length of the four-wheeled car they started with.  But, there seem to
have been exceptions.

> This also accounted for the centered versus offset cupola location.

Again, not exactly.  At one time it did appear that the center cupola
cars were those built new and the offset cupola cars were those rebuilt
from older cars.  However, there were some N6a's built new.  No photo,
diagram or drawing has yet shown up depicting a center-cupola N6a. 
Also, there is at least one pair of photos of the same car (at least the
same car number) where the older photo shows an offset cupola and the
newer shows a center cupola.  This remains a confusing and difficult
subject.

Bob Johnson

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:10:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Whistle Sounds, was [PRR] Diesel Horns

Bruce,

     When I get a chance I will  post what locos got which whistle. The
answer is bascally Bansee on Frieght and 3 chime on Passenger. There
were however exceptions. When I purchased my 3 Chime PRR Whistle (The
sound is on my 2nd website listed below) I did research on this subject.
I have drawings of the 2 style whistles and what locos got which style.
I will post that info in a few hours, I am busy decaling right
now....Gary




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:02:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] The book,  was: Larry Reynolds' Layout
From: Michael Allen <ptrmgtsvc@juno.com>

Mr. Wallis;

	I will be awaiting the announcement so that I can order a copy.

MEA

__________________________________________________
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Telephone 609-683-0356                                Telecopier
609-683-0192
Michael E. Allen, Managing Partner                    meallen@juno.com
W.R. ALLEN Associates                        wrallenassoc@earthlink.net


On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:47:24 -0600 Richard Wallis
<rwallis1@earthlink.net> writes:
> Dear List:
> 
> Ignoring, for a moment, the merits of your complaint with GenJim, I 
> simply can't let the following comment pass:
> 
> Stephen Hoxie wrote:
> 
> > I wish you the best in your efforts to write a book on the PRR. 
However, I would hope it is not a chronicle of boardroom  machinations. A
book of PRR history should have lots of well captioned photos of 
equipment and structures;  after all, out on the road was where men  made
history happen.
> 
> Really?  As someone who spent over eight years researching, and four 
years writing a book on the Vandalia Line (and the Terre Haute banker who
owned it), I find that statement astonishingly offensive.  Wherever they 
were, boardroom or boxcar, they all were important.  The protagonist in
my narrative was a remarkable and fascinating gentleman who managed to
checkmate the executives of the mighty PRR, and he did it in the 
> boardroom.
> And you're wrong: a book of PRR history should be accurate, well
documented and readable.  Pictures are secondary and best used as a
supplement to clarify and illustrate what's in the text.
> 
> In my efforts to get my own book published, I had to find and pay for
the pictures to be included.  But those pictures are not mine.  The book
I wrote, the effort I made, is in the text.  If you plan on judging my
work, be sure you know what it truly constitutes.
> 
> I am troubled by the idea that if it does not contain a lot of
pictures, it must not be very good.  What follows, therefore, is that Don
Ball's Pennsy book is superior to James Ward's masterful biography of J.
Edgar Thomson. Only a cretin or a fool would agree with that statement. 
While one might like the Ball book better for its photographs, most
reasonable people wouldsee that Ward's biography was a much greater
contribution to the Pennsylvania's collected history (and, yes, it is
also the better book).
> 
> You should know that my own manusript went off to the printer with
approximately 72 pictures supplied for inclusion, and that four weeks
later, I received a letter from the publisher asking me to cut 15 to 20
on my own or they would cut that many themselves.  (I believe it had to
do with the economics of the project.)
> 
> I guess, then, that you should be forewarned:  If all that satisfies
your curiosity is a coffeetable-style book with a bunch of photographs, 
you'll probably want to take a pass on my book when its released early
next year.
> 
> Richard Wallis
> 
> 
> 
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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:54:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Manor, Pa Secondary track?

On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, John Sheets wrote:

> Wow , what a great site, thanks!  Say, do you know the junction 
> name/history of a secondary track that ran off the main line at Manor, Pa up to
> around Claridge?
> 
> Have not found a ref to it.  Appears to have been out of service for 
> sometime, there was some talk of re-inventing it to an open coal mine about 15 
> years ago,
> near Harrison City

Well, the bridge just off the main line at Manor was removed some time
ago, so that'd have to be rebuilt before it could have been used for that.

I don't know if the mine in question (presumably you mean the strip mine
north of Harrison City on the road to Export) is stil in service, either.

-D



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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:58:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Whistle Sounds, was [PRR] Diesel Horns

Bruce, List,

     Time to take a break at decaling. I have been at it for 2 hours
already! Now, the PRR had 2 styles of whstles. The Bashee and the 3
Chime. Before I bought my 3 Chime I always thought there were 3 styles.
In additon to the two above I thought there was a "regular" Frieght
Whistle. Nope! Just the Banshee and the 3 Chime. These whistles were
evidently built at the shops in Altoona and either installed as the Loco
came in from outside Builders ie Baldwin, Alco etc. or the whistles were
shipped to those builders and installed at their shops. Of course
Altoona Built Loco had the Whistles installed there. Now the rundown of
what Locos got what Whistle. My drawings indicate the 3 Chime Whistle
was installed on E5's, E6's, G5's, K4's, K5's, M1's, M1a-b's, Q1, J1,
T1, I1's, I1sa's and N1s. The Banshee Whistle drawing shows the
following locos had this style whistle. Before I list them I will say it
is hard to make out the whole list as the photo copy did not take very
well. Hopefully someone else has this drawing so they can edit any
mistakes I might type and missing classes. Class A5's, All B6 classess
and subclasses, C1's, CC2's, All H classes and subclasses, L1's, L2's. I
can not make out any other class listed, (there are several more, maybe
the K2's-K3's?.) This particlar drawing has an original date of 5-23-35?
It has a footnote that Class I1, I1sa, N1s, and N2sa have been removed
from this list of classes that used this banshee whistle. This footnote
is dated 6-28-46.   
     There are no records of what the S1 or the Q2 used, unless it is
listed where the photo copy didn't come out too good. No mention of the
D class locos either. My guess these 3 class locos had the 3 Chime. I am
pretty sure D16sb 1223 at Strasburg had the 3 Chime. 
     It is interesting to see the List for the 3 Chime Whistles included
the I1 classes. I presume all were built with the Banshee and in 1946
(according to the drawing) were "ordered" changed to 3 Chime. 
    I will have to get my PRRT&HS recordings out again to see if I can
notice the sounds of the I1's and compare them to the dates they were
recorded. If I recall the recordings of the I1's are from the 1950's. I
also recall they sound like Banshees. Evidently all I1 locos didn't get
switched to the 3 Chimes.   
     Hopefully someone can fill in the missing info and or correct any
booboo's I may have stated....Gary      




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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:28:11 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Renewed Request For Info
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

My apologies for those who've seen this before, but the list has grown a lot
as of late, and I'm hoping there's a new subscriber out there with what I'm
looking for...

I am looking for copies of any of the following:

"Through Freight Train Schedules Between Principal Points", dated 1954 and
in effect as of September 26th. I have a 1952 version, and have seen a late
'54 version. I suspect there was probably a spring '54 version.

Info (e.g. name, block assignments) on the following freights as of 9/54 or
thereabouts:

    HP-1
    BF-7
    NL-7
    P-17

"Makeup of Trains" book for Philadelphia Division, 1954.

"Makeup of Trains" book for Maryland Division, 1954.

Conversely, if anyone has a "Makeup of Trains" book from '54 for the cities
of Chicago, St. Louis, or Buffalo, they would also be helpful. This provides
the EXACT consists I need for passenger trains not originating/destinating
in New York City.

If anyone can help with copies or a loaner, please contact me off-list.
Thanks.
    
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:47:19 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Re: Whistle Sounds, was [PRR] Diesel Horns

Gary,

As usual, you are a font of wisdom and information!  Many thanks for the
info on the whistles!  Since I model '44, I'll be happy with banshees on
the I-1s and not worry about the conversion dates <G>.  The info about the
T-1 makes me wonder about the Dallee system especially for the T-1...

BTW, I believe that the S-1 and T-1 (at least the two prototypes) had air
horns in addition to whistles?

Right now, I'm trying to find the best match between your K4 whistle:
 http://www.goodnet.com/~mittner/whistle.wav
and the samples listed at:
 http://www.soundtraxx.com/dcc/sound.html

If anyone has an opinion, please share it!

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry
       _               _
      / \             / \
  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
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 | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |
 |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_|
 | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O | |=| 0==0                      0==0 |=|




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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:49:33 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Need help with PRR reserach

Bob:

Thanks for clarifying my memory.  It has been a few years since I last heard 
your presentation.

Rich

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:09:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Whistle Sounds, was [PRR] Diesel Horns

Bruce,

     Remember, my whistle was blown on 150 lbs steam pressure, not the
210? Lbs that is in the Steam Dome. There is a slight change in pitch
using less pressure. Mine is close to the original sound but you can
tell it is not blown at "full" pressure. 
     By the way, I just checked my whistle wav file out and it did not
function to its full capacity. The recording should be about 1 minute
long, not 20 seconds like I heard. Maybe the internet is too
busy.....Gary




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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:55:34 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Railworks Clearance Car
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Wow! My Railworks Clearance Car arrived today. Beautiful!!!

Can't wait to run this as a passenger extra!

There a handful left at the importer if anyone is interested.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bel-Del Branch
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:02:57 -0500

In addition to the BR&W trackage, shortline Belvidere-Delaware operates from
Milford NJ up into Phillipsburg to interchange with NS (ex-CR). I assume NS
still runs coal trains from P'burg up to Martins Creek on what's now called
the Hudson Secondary; at least I haven't heard to the contrary. If anyone
knows differently, please advise! So the old Bel-Del ain't completely dead
yet!


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:13:06 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Railworks Clearance Car

In a message dated 3/20/2000 4:03:16 PM Central Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< Can't wait to run this as a passenger extra! >>

A question, not a statement.  Wouldn't it run more as a work extra, if it 
didn't have a category of its own?

Bob Zoeller

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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] RE: Manor, PA Secondary Track
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:49:58 -0000


Subject: Manor, Pa Secondary track?
From: "John Sheets" <johnit@interaccess.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:43:26 -0600



There was a Manor Branch, it came off main at Manor, PA at MP 90.8 (east of
Irwin) and proceeded north through, Harrison City MP 93.1, Clark's Crossing
MP 94.3, and Clairidge MP 95.0 ending at MP 95.4.

There was a coal mine (ca. 1945) between Harrison City and Clark's
Crossing - McCollough Coll. (Westmoreland Coal Co.) at MP 93.5.

>From 1945 CT1000, page 224.

Part of it was still in service ca. 1967 as it shows up in Central Region
ETT No 4, SI 1151-D1  PGH Div, as a Secondary Track of No Assigned
Direction - Manor to Harrison City, controlled by 'CP', Rule 110 applies.
'CP' was the Block Station, Interlocking and Interlocking Station at MP
332.7 between Shafton and Trafford on the Main Line PHL-PGH

Al


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:15:03 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Manor, PA Secondary Track

The Sept. 26, 1948 ETT for the Pittsburgh Division TT No. 11 list this as the 
Manor secondary track extneding from Manor on the mainline to Harrison City 
at MP 2.1  So the line had been shotened to Harrison City by 1948

Rich Orr

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:03:26 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] H9 Air tanks

Gary, list,

I'm still eagerly awaiting my Keystone so I can see this for myself.  I can,
however, add a bit about the engine's history.  H8sb 1920 was built in
August 1912 by Juniata (as a superheated engine), she was converted to an
H9s at an unknown date, and she was not dropped from the roster until April
1958.

Just when I think I have PRR motive power practices nailed down, something
like this happens....

Doug

Gary Mittner wrote:

> Doug,
>
>      I can back up Fred's posting. It is an H-9. I was curious myself so
> I took a look at the photo. I thought it may have been a mislabeled
> photo but it isn't. Before I looked I thought it may have been an H6-sb.
> Who knows, this may be a one of a kind variation on the H-9 air tanks
> set up, I surely havn't seen any other wih this arrangment. I thought
> this was only done on A5's B'6's and H6sb's. As always, The Pennsy did
> what they felt like doing.....Gary
>
> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:10:43 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: None

Wayne, list,

Please forgive this unenlightened question:  what's an acknowledger, as
applied to steam power?

Thanks in advance!

Doug

"Wayne S. Betty" wrote:

> Checked the MP 229 of 11/1/44
> H9s 1920 was equipped with a whistle and acknowledger.
> Cos
>
> Why would it need the tanks under the cab as well? Could it be it
> > needed the extra air supply because this loco was used for Passenger
> > Service in the Fredrick area as the photo caption states? Would the H9
> > need more air than it was normally supplied for frieght service, for
> > better control of the Loco in passenger service? Just a thought.....Gary
>
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From: bobsin@nac.net
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:58:52 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Bel-Del Branch

Just to clarify, I should have said I didn't think the Bel-Del ever had 
automatic block signals.  John Sheet's employee timetable refers 
to a dark "clear block indication", which would seem to be MBS 
rules.  Signals conveying manual block indications may of course 
have been present; in my Timetable # 21 (4/24/66) there is a note 
that when the Frenchtown interlocking is not in service, "Home 
signals will convey no Manual Block indication," which suggests 
that at other hours they did indeed convey block information, that 
is, permission to enter the next manual block (Frenchtown was a 
part time block station as well as a part time interlocking station).

The signal observed along the right of way (is it still there?  what 
indications was it capable of conveying, i.e., was it a manual block 
signal only, capable usually of displaying only Clear Block or 
Restricting aspects?) may have been remotely controlled, or 
perhaps there was even a block station there at one time.

There were also Distant Switch Indicator signals along the line.  I 
recall visiting Lambertville at one time when the line was in service, 
and finding switch locks on every turnout, except the lead switch 
on the main line!  This switch was however connected to a distant 
switch indicator, but it seems very hazardous, especially if 
someone tampers with the switch after the engine were to pass the 
signal (I think this was the cause of a major wreck on the Long 
Island at one of the state hospital spurs on the LIRR Main Line at 
one time).

We didn't discuss Somerset Junction, the takeoff point for the line 
to Millstone, on which the famous Frog War occured when the 
Reading tried to build across the line.  Somerset Junction was 
about a mile south of Washington Crossing, judging from the map 
in Lee's book.  

Keep up the research!  Almost time to go out and walk the line and 
look for artifacts!

John Bobsin
Basking Ridge, NJ

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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:54:45 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Western NY Ry Historical Society

Hello list,

I just linked to the Western NY Ry Historical Society's page
(www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/).  They're the owners of ex-PRR 4483, and
they've posted some photos of the recently repaired cab sides and
windows.  The 90F82 tender has received a new coat of paint and a proper
Pennsylvania on the side.

The society also has an ex-M1 tender with 8 wheel trucks (210F75a?) that
they plan to display with I1sa 4483 when her cosmetic restoration is
complete (one of the society's pages said that the engine would need to
be retubed before she could run again...).  The ex-M1 tender is
apparently in much better shape than the 90F82.

In any case, check it out.  I would love a return to the glory days of
1987, when we had a D16sb, an E7s, and a K4s all in steam (this was
quite intoxicating to a teenager at the time).

Doug


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:41:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] H9 Air tanks

Doug, List

    Well, I had sometime to read the new Keystone issue a little better
tonight. I didn't think this would happen so quickly but it did. A
second H class with vertical air tanks is pictured in the same article!
Class H-8sb #3401 late 1940's. The photo caption says it is filling in
for a Gas-Electric. (Is this a coincidence?-this H Class is also pulling
a Passenger Train). Again  does my reasoning make any sense with the
extra vertical tanks and Passenger Service? Did this Class need extra
air to run passenger trains? I can't think of any myself.....Gary 




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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:56:01 -0500
From: davep <davep@quik.com>
Subject: [PRR] Acknowledger



"doug.kisala" wrote:
 
> Wayne, list,

> Please forgive this unenlightened question:
>what's an acknowledger, as applied to steam power?

	Same thing as applied to diesel power...
	8)>>

	Its part of ATC (Automatic Train Control.  When a train runs
	past a signal more restricting than what it has been running
	under, a whistle sounds.

	The engineer has 'foo' seconds to 'acknowledge' either by
	braking, OR by operating the acknowledger.  In some cases,
	the proper thing is NOT to apply the brake, hence the
	acknowledger, by which the runner 'says':
		Yep I am under a more restricting signal.
		Yep I am awake & alert
		Yep I think the thing to do is NOT to brake.

	Its only recently that 'puters have begun to approach
	the abilities of a competent engineer...

	If the acknowledger is not operated, the brakes apply automatically.

	When cab signals/atc first came out, the automatics were a Lot
	Stupider.

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 06:22:01 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Railworks Clearance Car
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/20/00 5:13 PM, Bobspf@aol.com at (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote:

> << Can't wait to run this as a passenger extra! >>
> 
> A question, not a statement.  Wouldn't it run more as a work extra, if it
> didn't have a category of its own?
> 
You'd think so, since it is technically a MoW car. However, numerous
sources, including one of its operators who wrote an article on the PRRT&HS
site, reports that it ran as a passenger extra.

In fact, in a past Keystone issue, about three years ago, there was an
article on "Trainwatching at Harrisburg". It had a photo of this
one-of-a-kind car sitting at the Harrisburg passenger station.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:20:22 -0500
Subject: [PRR] 1931 ETT's for sale
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

There's a whole collection of 1931 for sale on eBay:

http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=ttcollector
81

Make sure the complete URL fits on one line when you put it to your browser.
In my e-mail client, the "81" is breaking to a second line.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:55:06 -0600 (CST)
From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Western NY Ry Historical Society

Doug

Thanks for the web site.  I just checked it out.  For those of you wondering what the whistle sounds like, there is a soundbite of the original 4483 banshee whistle you can listen to.  

Wonder how they got the entire backhead into one photo. The tender got in my way when I tried to get a whole view.


>Hello list,
>
>I just linked to the Western NY Ry Historical Society's page
>(www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/).  They're the owners of ex-PRR 4483, and
>they've posted some photos of the recently repaired cab sides and
>windows.  The 90F82 tender has received a new coat of paint and a proper
>Pennsylvania on the side.
>
>The society also has an ex-M1 tender with 8 wheel trucks (210F75a?) that
>they plan to display with I1sa 4483 when her cosmetic restoration is
>complete (one of the society's pages said that the engine would need to
>be retubed before she could run again...).  The ex-M1 tender is
>apparently in much better shape than the 90F82.
>
>In any case, check it out.  I would love a return to the glory days of
>1987, when we had a D16sb, an E7s, and a K4s all in steam (this was
>quite intoxicating to a teenager at the time).
>
>Doug
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".

Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:57:03 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Layout List Invitation
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

With construction of my layout very close becoming reality, I would like to
invite anyone who is interested to join a new, private mailing list to
discuss the design, construction, and operation of the new layout.

Because this is a private list, I will need to manually subscribe you. Those
who have already expressed an interest in operating with me will be added to
the list initially. The first post to the list will be later this week.

The following are encouraged to participate:

1. Those who are in a proximity to Etters PA (between Harrisburg and York)
and are interested in operating or constructing the layout;

2. Those who are interested in the general modeling of Harrisburg;

3. Those who just want to follow the construction of an operating pike.

I will highly encourage constructive criticism on this list.

Related: I have recently updated many of the documentation about the layout
plan on my site. I will post pencil drawings of the design tomorrow night
(3/22) to be followed later by 3rd PlanIt CAD drawings.

The URL for the layout is

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://modelrailroadnews.net


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From: WAJK4@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:00:32 EST
Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's x48 boxcars

Can anyone help me with a modeling dilemma?  I have the Walther's PS-1/X48 
boxcars kits, and I want to make sure I put the right doors on the cars.  
Should I use the Pullman doors, the Superior doors, or the Youngstown doors?


Walt

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From: "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
Subject: [PRR] Slide Collection Info Wanted
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:13:59 -0000

To the list,
I am looking for any help that might lead me to information regarding a
splendid collection of PRR 35mm colour slides I've just acquired.  The
collection is around 240 in total and covers the period late 40s to early
60s I would guess, with the great majority of diesel and electric classes
featured and quite a bit of steam, too.  Even a Baltimore street
tractor is in there.
The slides are curiously catalogued and based on a kind of a date system
i.e.  (slide) 39  (set) SEP82P8
Many are stamped with the legend:  FJC Products,  P.O.Box 3102, Newport, DE
19804
I tried an internet search with no luck.
Can anybody tell me if this company still exists as I would like to enquire
if they ever produced a describing list that accompanied their slides?
Though I can guess a few of the locations  such as Horseshoe Curve and the
hump at Renovo it would be nice if more information was available.
Grateful for any help you folks can give.

Regards,
John H. Wright
Visit the Newcastle & District MRS website at its new URL:
http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ndmrs.htm







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From: "Walt Prusick" <walpru@stargate.net>
Subject: [PRR] PS-1/X48
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:30:43 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF9339.A8179540
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear list,
Go one better. I am "cleaning" out under my layout and discowered four =
of those PS1 lettered in Pennsy  BUT painted green and labeled for DF =
service. Are these cars applicable for a pike circa 1952/53?

Thanks
Walt Prusick

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF9339.A8179540
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear list,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Go one better. I am "cleaning" out =
under my layout=20
and discowered four of those PS1 lettered in Pennsy&nbsp; BUT painted =
green and=20
labeled for DF service. Are these cars applicable for a pike circa=20
1952/53?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt Prusick</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF9339.A8179540--


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:46:12 -0500
From: "John Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Slide Collection Info Wanted

That sounds like my old friend, Franklin J. Cramer.  He was an NRHS member.  I
don't know if he's still around.  Nice guy, though, and I think Bob Colquitt
also knew him.  You might try the Wilmington, DE phone book.

John Ryan

"John H. Wright" wrote:

> To the list,
> I am looking for any help that might lead me to information regarding a
> splendid collection of PRR 35mm colour slides I've just acquired.  The
> collection is around 240 in total and covers the period late 40s to early
> 60s I would guess, with the great majority of diesel and electric classes
> featured and quite a bit of steam, too.  Even a Baltimore street
> tractor is in there.
> The slides are curiously catalogued and based on a kind of a date system
> i.e.  (slide) 39  (set) SEP82P8
> Many are stamped with the legend:  FJC Products,  P.O.Box 3102, Newport, DE
> 19804
> I tried an internet search with no luck.


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:08:08 -0500
From: "John Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [PRR] Slide Collection

It may have been Franklin B. Cramer.  He went by "Pete"  Try this
listing.

John Ryan


F B Cramer
3600 Rustic Lane
Wilmington, DE
19808-1763

Phone: 302-737-1011



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:19:21 -0600 (CST)
From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)
Subject: [PRR] M-1 characteristics

I am working on Pennypacker's M-1 book for Jerry's steam data base.   On page 97, Pennypacker lists the numbers of all M1a engines that were converted to M1b between 1945 and 1953.    In carefully going through the book and comparing engine numbers in photo captions with the list of converted engines,  I find there appear tobe  many misidentifications.  For example, on page 27, Engine 6702 is labeled an M1a.  The photo is dated June 1956, thus 6702 should be a M1b (if the list of M1b numbers is correct and the photo date is correct).

In examining the photos, the only differences I can find between engines are that: 1)  the generator and headlight were switched at some point and this was a modernization effort across all versions, and 2)  M1 engines appear to have been built with a single compressor and the train control box forward, but M1a (and by default, M1b) appear to have been built with two compressors and the train control box aft of them.   I found no photos of an M1 with two compressors (in this book, that is - surely there is one out there somewhere).

Is there any reliable way of differentiating a M1b from a M1a using external characteristics, aside from the number plate (which is obscured in many of the photos) and date of photo (which is not listed in many photos)?   

Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:20:56 -0500
From: Jeff Knorek <jknorek@mail.msen.com>
Subject: [PRR] ?Pittsburgh Housing Near The RR?

Greetings-
Sorry to bother ya'll with this, but I figure that a lot
of you know Pittsburgh...and know the trains there.

A friend of mine will be doing his internship at
St Francis Hospital (not the unit by Civic Arena).

He'd like to be within 15-20 minutes of the hospital,
near a busy rail line, and in a safe neighborhood. Access
to the trolly is a big plus.

In April we are going there to scout out a place for him to live.

Anybody have any ideas on where to steer us so we can
hit the ground running?

Many thanks-
 Jeff Knorek


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:44:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] M-1 characteristics

Don,

    There is no visible differences between an M1a and the 41 M1b's.
One modification between the two classes was the boost in boiler
pressure from 250 lbs in the M1a to 270 lbs in the M1b. Anoher added
feature to the M1b was circulators added in the firebox. Again unseen
from the outside.
   As to the mistakes you noticed on photo captions. That is just one
more frustration to deal with.....Gary




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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:01:23 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] M-1 characteristics
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/21/00 3:44 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote:

> There is no visible differences between an M1a and the 41 M1b's.
> One modification between the two classes was the boost in boiler
> pressure from 250 lbs in the M1a to 270 lbs in the M1b. Anoher added
> feature to the M1b was circulators added in the firebox. Again unseen
> from the outside.
> As to the mistakes you noticed on photo captions. That is just one
> more frustration to deal with.....Gary
> 
Brings to mind another question...if you saw an M1 just sitting somewhere,
was there any visual clue as to whether or not it was assigned to passenger
service?

What I am getting at is, if one were to model an M1 for passenger service,
would it be any different than an M1 for freight service? Was it truly "dual
service" vs. being dedicated to one or the other?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://www.modelrailroadnews.net


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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Western NY Ry Historical Society
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:20:59 -0500

WOW! That banshee sends a chill though ya. I've always wondered what an I1's
whistle sounded like!


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:30:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] M-1 characteristics

Jerry,

    This isn't an easy question to answer. At least not for me. This
will have to involve a little research on my part. I do recall that 10
M1a's from the first batch? were designated for passenger service. I
also know they had the slatted pilot.  Most all (not all) others had the
footboard pilot. Later still more recieved the fabricated steel pilot
with drop coupler. The 10 Passenger M1a's also recieved the 210p75?
tenders.
       Your question was is it easy to tell a Passenger M1a from a
Freight M1a. If you think of it, there are not many photos of M1a's in
Passenger service to help answer your question. If you do see any they
are early in their carrers (1930's). The Pennsy believed so much in the
K4 as the main stay of Passenger service. Even if they had to double
head. Remember, the Pennsy had a chance to order more M1's and decided
to place the order for 5400 series K4's from Baldwin instead. I see I
still didn't answer your question<G>. I will get back to you later if no
one else steps forward with info you ae looking for...... Gary   




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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:34:23 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PS-1/X48

In a message dated 3/21/2000 12:35:06 PM Central Standard Time, 
walpru@stargate.net writes:

<< Go one better. I am "cleaning" out under my layout and discowered four of 
those PS1 lettered in Pennsy  BUT painted green and labeled for DF service. 
Are these cars applicable for a pike circa 1952/53? >>

Era would be OK, but the Green DF cars that I know of were built (and leased 
originally before Pennsy finally bought them) by General American Evans and 
were 50-footers.  I did buy a 3-pack of Athearn 50-footers a few years ago 
that had been painted in the three different paint scheme variations and look 
the other way when the prototype police arrive. 

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:49:21 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] Passenger vs. Freight M1

Jerry,

I would think the lack of the jointed steam connection
on the rear of the tender would identify a
freight-only M1 (or any PRR steam). Similarly, the
presence of one would indicate that someone intended
to use the locomotive in passenger service.

In that connection (oops. no pun intended) were the
flatcars used to carry containers in express trains
equiped with steam connections? Same question in re
cabins in that service?

 

=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


__________________________________________________
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From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: Re: [PRR] M-1 characteristics
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:40:26 -0800

M1's---Now we are getting serious.  Gary as usual hit the nail on the
head with no visible differences between M1a and M1b.

Jerry--I think you are asking about M1, not M1a.  And I assume you are
interested only in mid 50's (1954).  And I assume your principal
interest is in and out of Harrisburg.  The short version of the answer
is look for the 130P75 tender;  probably only 6810, 6845, 6861 in that
timeframe.  I am on my way out the door to teach a class, will provide
picture documentation in a few hours.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:12:27 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's x48 boxcars

The 20 PRR PS-1 cars had 6 panel superior doors.  There is another major 
problem with both the Walthers and Intermountain PS-1 cars in PRR livery.  
Neither has the sliding center sill cushion underframe.  All of the PRR cars 
were so equipped.

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:21:02 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PS-1/X48

In a message dated 03/21/2000 1:35:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
walpru@stargate.net writes:

<< Go one better. I am "cleaning" out under my layout and discowered four of 
those PS1 lettered in Pennsy  BUT painted green and labeled for DF service. 
Are these cars applicable for a pike circa 1952/53?
  >>
Green PS-1 in PRR letter is not applicable to any time frame.  

In 1950 General American Transportation Company and Evans Car company 
combined to produce 50' cars with 8' doors and Evans 8 rail DF loaders.  The 
PRR leased a number of these cars which carried the reporting marks GAEX.  
The experiment between the two companies did not work out and was abandoned.  
In 1960 and 1964 the PRR acquired a total of 149 of thes cars on term leases. 
 They were lettered PRR and numbered 47100-47149.  These cars never received 
a PRR class designation and remained in green paint to easily segregate them 
from cars not equipped with the DF equipment.  The car was an entirely 
different design from the PS-1.

Rich Orr

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:27:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] M-1 characteristics

Jerry,

    Here is a short update. I found this info in Pennsy Power 1. ALL M
Class locos were built with Slatted pilots. Only later did most recieve
the foot boards and later the Drop Coupler Pilot.
Originally 20 M1's and 10 M1a's,                      (#'s 6700-6709)
were assigned to Passenger service. The break down to assignments for
the 30 Passenger M1's/M1a's during the early 1930's were 3 for the
Cleveland Division, 4 to the Ft. Wayne and the remaining 27 for
Harrisburg-Pittsburgh-Columbus territory.  It states that by the 40's
most 4-8-2's were in freight service. However in the 40's several M1's
were fitted with class 110-p-75 (Actually maybe 130-P-75's) tenders and
worked the Harrisburg, Williamsport and Buffalo (The Buffalo Day
Express?) runs. I believe this is the last of the passeger trains
powered by any M class loco. I am sure it is possible to find them
heading one in a pinch at a later date. The M1/M1a's prooved to many
they were more suitable for freight engines. Just look what they did
during WW2. 
      Like I said, finding  photos with  Passenger trains powered by
M1a's are pretty hard. Not one showed up in Pennsy Power 1. There is
however a builders photo of #6707. 
     I believe I may have a photo on my website of a Passenger Train
headed up by an M1a. I will have to check. I will list it here in a few
moments if I do. If it was a Color photo you could probably see the
additional stripping their tenders recieved. All for now...Gary




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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:34:17 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] ?Pittsburgh Housing Near The RR?

In a message dated 03/21/2000 3:29:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jknorek@mail.msen.com writes:

<< A friend of mine will be doing his internship at
 St Francis Hospital (not the unit by Civic Arena).
 
 He'd like to be within 15-20 minutes of the hospital,
 near a busy rail line, and in a safe neighborhood. Access
 to the trolly is a big plus.
  >>
Good news and bad news.

Bad news.
The nearest the "T" comes to St. Francis hospital wound be the terminus at 
the old Pennsy station -- 12th street and Liberty Avenue.  ST. Francis 
hospital is at 54th St. and Penn Avenue.  making them about 4 miles apart.  

Good news.
As for busy tracks - southward about 6 blocks from St. Francis is the 
Pittsburgh Division mainline down in a valley.  You can drive or walk to the 
tracks and park within 10 feet of the west bound main.  In the other 
direction - north - go 4 blocks down the hill to Butler Street then either 
west to the 40th street bridge or east to the 62nd street bridge.  Cross 
either bridge and at the northern end of the bridge you can look down on the 
Connemaugh Division tracks.  CP Etna, CP sharps, Etna yard and Sharpsburg 
yard are all in this area and generally accessible to varying degrees.

Can't help much on the housing.  Too many variable for this medium.

Rich Orr

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:45:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PRR] M1a Passenger Photo

Jerry,

     Here is a photo of M1a #6704 in 1930. She is seen in East Liberty,
(Pgh.)  in 1930. First car appears to be an R50-b. The M1a looks like
all other M1a's to my eyes. ......Gary

http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4s/prr6704.jpg




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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:47:30 EST
Subject: [PRR] I1s whistle

All:

The PRRT&HS has/had a set of CDs with many of the whistle sounds.  These were 
release several years ago and had been remastered from 33 1/3 rpm vinyls 
issued many years earlier.  I have no idea if they are still available.

Jerry, you might want to check with Ivan.  He was involved in the CD project.

Rich Orr

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:50:19 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] H9 Air tanks

Gary, list,

I can't come up with an alternative explanation for those mysterious air
tanks.  However, I don't think they were related to passenger service.  PRR
7688, preserved at the RR Museum of PA is stoker fired and had steam and
signal lines added so she could pull troop trains.  Other H10s engines were
stoker fired for the same service, and none that I've seen have those
under-cab air tanks.

Some other thoughts.  On page 55 of Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T, there's
a shot of H9s 176 (built as an H8b in January 1911 by Baldwin, to H9s in
August 1917, and dropped from the roster in March, 1950) pulling a local
passenger train.  She does not have under-cab air tanks.  Also, on page 34
of Pennsy Steam Years I, there's a shot of H10s 8259 (Alco-Brooks August
1916, ss February 1959) heading a fan trip in1947.  She's stoker fired and
in passenger service, but lacks under cab air tanks.

I realize that with a small sample like this, it's hard to prove things one
way or another; consider it food for thought or further debate.

Doug

Gary Mittner wrote:

> Doug, List
>
>     Well, I had sometime to read the new Keystone issue a little better
> tonight. I didn't think this would happen so quickly but it did. A
> second H class with vertical air tanks is pictured in the same article!
> Class H-8sb #3401 late 1940's. The photo caption says it is filling in
> for a Gas-Electric. (Is this a coincidence?-this H Class is also pulling
> a Passenger Train). Again  does my reasoning make any sense with the
> extra vertical tanks and Passenger Service? Did this Class need extra
> air to run passenger trains? I can't think of any myself.....Gary
>
> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:00:10 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] M-1 characteristics

Hello Don and the list,

Pennypacker's book has nice photos, but I've learned he sometimes (okay, regularly) skimps on caption research.  The M1 book has fewer errors than the K4s book (Classic Power 6), so I guess we have to be happy with any improvment.

Despite what happened with the I1s/I1sa fleet, with some engines upgraded to twin compressors, I've never seen photographic evidence of an M1 being equipped with twin compressors.

One easy way to tell an M1 from an M1a is to look at the cylinder saddle.  The M1 class has external steam pipes from the smokebox to the cylinders.  The M1a/b class has internal steam pipes.

The M1b class had new boilers rated at 270 psi, raising tractive force to 69,700 pounds, and circulators were added.  Since both of these changes were internal, they don't help you in your quest for identification.

One other thing that I recently posted on is the haphazard addition of mechanical lubricators to the M1/M1a/M1b fleet.  I now believe that the Lima built M1a engines had them as built (6775-6799), and that the rest of the fleet had them added starting in the late 30s, occurring mostly in the 40s.  The Lima engines had them on the right side; all other M1 installations of mechanical lubricators were on the left side (watch, someone will prove me wrong with a photo). Some M1 engines had not received mechanical lubricators as late as 1947.
Based on photos, it appears that all M1b engines had mechanical lubricators.

Doug

Don Harper wrote:

> I am working on Pennypacker's M-1 book for Jerry's steam data base.   On page 97, Pennypacker lists the numbers of all M1a engines that were converted to M1b between 1945 and 1953.    In carefully going through the book and comparing engine numbers in photo captions with the list of converted engines,  I find there appear tobe  many misidentifications.  For example, on page 27, Engine 6702 is labeled an M1a.  The photo is dated June 1956, thus 6702 should be a M1b (if the list of M1b numbers is correct and the photo date is correct).
>
> In examining the photos, the only differences I can find between engines are that: 1)  the generator and headlight were switched at some point and this was a modernization effort across all versions, and 2)  M1 engines appear to have been built with a single compressor and the train control box forward, but M1a (and by default, M1b) appear to have been built with two compressors and the train control box aft of them.   I found no photos of an M1 with two compressors (in this book, that is - surely there is one out there somewhere).
>
> Is there any reliable way of differentiating a M1b from a M1a using external characteristics, aside from the number plate (which is obscured in many of the photos) and date of photo (which is not listed in many photos)?
>
> Don Harper
> Texas A&M Marine Lab
> 5007 Avenue U
> Galveston, TX  77551
> 409/740-4540
>
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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:08:00 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] M-1 characteristics

Jerry and the list,

One possibility might be the presence or absence of steam and signal lines on
the pilots and tenders.  Looking in Staufer's Pennsy Power III,  shots in the
50s show the M1/M1a/M1b classes with just one air line on the pilots (see 6761
on page 185).  Since the engines weren't used in passenger service by this time,
this photo isn't particularly helpful.

However, on page 187, there's a shot of M1 6869 rolling tonnage.  She has what
looks like a tender from a PRR K4s (it looks like a former 250P75; has a short
coal space and long water space with what look like six wheel trucks), and just
one air hose on a footboard pilot.

On the same page, there's a shot of M1 6856 on a passenger train; she has the
candlepin markers on both smokebox and pilot, and what looks like the closely
spaced tender lettering of the 30s on what is definitely a Kiesel tender.

Before 1940, when the candlepin marker lights started coming off the smokebox on
passenger power (apparently they came off on freight power in the early 30s),
you could look for the presence or absence of the candlepin marker lights as
well.

Doug

Jerry Britton wrote:

> On 3/21/00 3:44 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote:
>
> > There is no visible differences between an M1a and the 41 M1b's.
> > One modification between the two classes was the boost in boiler
> > pressure from 250 lbs in the M1a to 270 lbs in the M1b. Anoher added
> > feature to the M1b was circulators added in the firebox. Again unseen
> > from the outside.
> > As to the mistakes you noticed on photo captions. That is just one
> > more frustration to deal with.....Gary
> >
> Brings to mind another question...if you saw an M1 just sitting somewhere,
> was there any visual clue as to whether or not it was assigned to passenger
> service?
>
> What I am getting at is, if one were to model an M1 for passenger service,
> would it be any different than an M1 for freight service? Was it truly "dual
> service" vs. being dedicated to one or the other?
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
>     http://www.brasstrains.net
> For Dealers and Manufacturers
>     http://www.modelrailroadnews.net
>
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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:13:26 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's x48 boxcars

Walt, list,

On page 50 of PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment, Vol II,
there's a shot of PRR 47001 in the shadow keystone scheme.  She has a 6 panel
Superior door.  According to the caption, PRR only bought 20 of these PS1
boxcars, numbering them 47000-47019.

Hope this helps!

Doug



WAJK4@aol.com wrote:

> Can anyone help me with a modeling dilemma?  I have the Walther's PS-1/X48
> boxcars kits, and I want to make sure I put the right doors on the cars.
> Should I use the Pullman doors, the Superior doors, or the Youngstown doors?
>
> Walt
>
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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s whistle
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:10:45 -0500

The PRR steam CD's were available at last years PRRT&HS convention from the
Stanley's.  I believe they still are available, and can probably be obtained
at Camp Hill.  You could drop the Stanley's a line to be sure, or to order a
set.  Awesome, in my opinion!  I had the original vinyl records, and
upgraded to the CD's last year.

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

-----Original Message-----
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
To: rickstug@mindspring.com <rickstug@mindspring.com>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
<PRR-Talk@dsop.com>; harperd@tamug.tamu.edu <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 6:50 PM
Subject: [PRR] I1s whistle


>All:
>
>The PRRT&HS has/had a set of CDs with many of the whistle sounds.  These
were
>release several years ago and had been remastered from 33 1/3 rpm vinyls
>issued many years earlier.  I have no idea if they are still available.
>
>Jerry, you might want to check with Ivan.  He was involved in the CD
project.
>
>Rich Orr
>
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From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s whistle
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:15:58 -0500

Hello,
I don't think that the CD's were made from the 33 1/3 recordings, but from
the same masters....The CD's were done by Semaphore Recordings,the same
people that did the records.  Contact the PRRT&HS for (S4R-7M) for the
CD's......No idea of the price at this time.....There are 8 tracks on the 2
CD's.
track 1...T1's, E6s, doubleheaded K4's
track 2... K4's,and doubleheaded K4's
track 3....G5s, H9s, L1s
track 4.... I1sa
track 5.....J1, i1sa,
track 6.....M1, M1a
track 7.....M1
track 8.....I1sa, B6sa, 4-I1sa's, C1, doubleheaded  I1sa's & NYC-J1d

Great sounds!



-----Original Message-----
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
To: rickstug@mindspring.com <rickstug@mindspring.com>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
<PRR-Talk@dsop.com>; harperd@tamug.tamu.edu <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 6:51 PM
Subject: [PRR] I1s whistle


>All:
>
>The PRRT&HS has/had a set of CDs with many of the whistle sounds.  These
were
>release several years ago and had been remastered from 33 1/3 rpm vinyls
>issued many years earlier.  I have no idea if they are still available.
>
>Jerry, you might want to check with Ivan.  He was involved in the CD
project.
>
>Rich Orr
>
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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:29:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s whistle

Bill,

    I agree, those recordings are a must have. I wasn't born yet when
the last of the steamers were still running.  Turn these recordings on
at night and close your eyes. You can just imagine what it was like back
in the 40's-50's. I am not sure if it is on this recording or not but,
man, listen to the that M1 or is it an I1? trying to get her train
started from the Denholm Coal Warf. Now that is something to hear!
Better than some of the video stuff out there.....Gary




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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From: PRR5499@att.net
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:14:46 +0000
Subject: [PRR] 

  
    Jerry,
          I have the following information about PRR
 M1a's and M-1b's. There is an external differance 
between the two. The circulators do show in the M-1b's 
firebox, you have to look closely. Also M-1a #6799 was 
equipped with a 100F75 tender in 1949.It had its picture 
taken in Columbus. My friend fired it when it had that 
tender on it. It had a duplex stoker.I also have a 
picture of #6788 M-1a with a 110-F-75 tender equipped 
with a three-man doghouse.This is unusual for these 
engines.BTW #6799 was in a tremendous wreck at 
Bradford,Ohio I'll have to try and find out,but I think 
it might have gotten a new boiler.

                        Hope this helps--------Ed Case

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From: "boxcar46" <boxcar46@nfdc.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s whistle
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:53:41 -0500

Gary,

Worst thing is ....I did see them run, and I was two young to have a camera.
But I grew up next to the PRR main line into Baltimore, seeing K's, E's,
L's, and a bunch of others that I didn't know what they were ( at the time
!)
On trips to the mountains....I saw T's and M's and even some I's....but the
best was those GG1's ( I was young at the time !) The smoke gods will
forgive me for that one....
And it didn't hurt having a father who liked to watch the trains go by.....

Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Mittner <mittner@webtv.net>
To: boxcar46 <boxcar46@nfdc.net>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s whistle


>Bill,
>
>    I agree, those recordings are a must have. I wasn't born yet when
>the last of the steamers were still running.  Turn these recordings on
>at night and close your eyes. You can just imagine what it was like back
>in the 40's-50's. I am not sure if it is on this recording or not but,
>man, listen to the that M1 or is it an I1? trying to get her train
>started from the Denholm Coal Warf. Now that is something to hear!
>Better than some of the video stuff out there.....Gary
>
>
>
>
>Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
>http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
>http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA
>
>


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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:03:49 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s whistle

In a message dated 00-03-21 22:02:16 EST, you write:

> On trips to the mountains....I saw T's and M's and even some I's....but the
>  best was those GG1's ( I was young at the time !) The smoke gods will
>  forgive me for that one....

Never apologize for liking the GG1s.  They were unique, and are honorary 
steam locomotives as far as I'm concerned.

Rick

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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:54:14 EST
Subject: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

Pennsy fans,

Awhile ago, someone inquired about existing steel facilities being served by 
successor lines to the PRR.  I can think of at least one.

Weirton Steel was served by both the PRR and Norfolk and Western since the 
early part (20s?) of the century.  There are a number of modelers listed on 
Keystone Crossings who have done more extensive research on this than me.  
However, I seem to remember there is also a connecting railroad - Delran?

Weirton Steel is still in business and, I suppose, still served by Norfolk 
Southern.

Best wishes,

George

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From: Sean121982@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:10:10 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

Off the top of my head, I can think of 

U.S. Steel-Gary Works
Bethlehem Steel- Burns Harbor Works
I/NTek Steel- Somewhere in northern IN off the Chicago Line
Rouge Steel in Detroit

Sean McDonnell

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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:14:47 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: Cabin car roof colors

Folks,

The MTH RailKing PRR N5c (30-7730) has a yellow cupola.  The car is marked as:
    Blt 3-41
    Rpkd AC 2-6-59

Usually MTH is pretty good about car markings.

Hope that helps,

George

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From: "Walt Prusick" <walpru@stargate.net>
Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Cabin Car Roof Colors
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:00:17 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF9391.9B651FE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

George and list,
A while back it was brought to my attention that a yellow copula =
signified a cabin assigned to east-west pool, grey signified north-south =
pool assignment. Just goes to show you what you can learn on this list =
by keeping your eyes open.

Walt Prusick

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF9391.9B651FE0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>George and list,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A while back it was brought to my =
attention that a=20
yellow copula signified a cabin assigned to east-west pool, grey =
signified=20
north-south pool assignment. Just goes to show you what you can learn on =
this=20
list by keeping your eyes open.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Walt Prusick</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF9391.9B651FE0--


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From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie)
Subject: Re: [PRR] M-1 characteristics
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:31:32 -0800

Jerry-- Probably should add 6811 to the list of early 50's, Harrisburg
area, passenger M1's.  Published photos:

6810--Keystone Sep 79 p. 15 departing Harrisburg.  Believe the caption
date, 1946, is incorrect since engine has the small round class lites.
Also Keystone Spring 88, p. 29 in Altoona in 1956 long after any
passenger use had ceased.  There is also another picture I have seen
recently taken at Northumberland in 56 or 57.

6811--Keystone June 81 p. 22 on train 571 at Renovo.  No date but
engine has all the modernization it can stand including round class
lites.

6845--Keystone June 79 p. 4 near Sunbury.  Caption says train 570 in
1954.  Keystone Sep 79 p.14 on train 570 below Sunbury.

6861--Keystone Spring 88 p. 29.  Tender photo, date and place unknown,
but after the war.  There is another really good photo in a Keystone
which I am unable to put a hand on tonight, but I know it is there.
6861 is just arriving in Sunbury on a passenger train in 1952, nearly
a headon shot, but the 130P75 tender is visible, as is the bar pilot
and everything else modernized.  Later, in a Don Wood photo shown in
"I Remember Pennsy" p. 133, 6861 has a 210F75a tender and still
retains the bar pilot, as well as the extra signal hose on the pilot.
Photo is not dated so we can't tell when they put that tender on.  A
unique engine.

To answer your modeling question (again Harrisburg, 1954), for
passenger service an M1 would have a steam line/coupling on a 130P75
tender and a signal hose on the pilot in additon to the air brake
line.  Everything else would be specific to a certain engine, even
whether or not there was a doghouse on the tender.  And the engine
could still be used in freight service.  A really good source for
general info is Penn Valley's video, "Susquehanna Division".  Some
really good M1 scenes, including passenger and passenger equipped M1's
on freight.  A small detail that I have no way to verify would be the
enginehouse assignment shown on the pilot beam.  I think M1's actually
assigned to passenger service, as opposed to being capable of it,
would show assignment to Harrisburg engine terminal, while the freight
assigned engines would show Enola, Altoona, or Northumberland.  At
least that would seem logical, but this is the PRR so anything can
happen.

Hope some of this is useful to you!

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:26:00 EST
Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's x48 boxcars - doors and end color

In a message dated 3/21/2000 1:08:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, WAJK4@aol.com 
writes:

<< Can anyone help me with a modeling dilemma?  I have the Walther's PS-1/X48 
 boxcars kits, and I want to make sure I put the right doors on the cars.  
 Should I use the Pullman doors, the Superior doors, or the Youngstown doors?
 
 
 Walt >>
Photo on p25 of the Keystone Vol 21 #2 (Summer '88) shows a 6-panel Superior 
door.  While you're looking at 47003 (one twentieth of the total fleet of 
X48's),  you may contemplate the great mystery - is this a black end, or is 
it freight-car-colored?  Since this is a b&w photo, an ironclad answer is 
dificult, but it doesn't look very black to me -- 

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West 

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From: "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Slide Collection Info Wanted
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:30:43 -0000

Thanks to everyone who replied to my query.  Some useful leads there ....
should be fun trying to track "Pete" down.

I guess a bit of explanation is the least I can give in return.
Last weekend saw one of our NMRA British Regional meets and I was in
attendance with my PRR layout.  One of the regulars was once a Pennsy
enthusiast who has now, sadly,  changed his allegiance and was disposing of
the last of his stuff.  If you remember I posted about a pair of brass
passenger Sharks up for sale last year ..... they were his.  He sold me a
nice wad of 80s Keystones and Pennsy Journals, a '56 rule book along with
the slides for an
embarrassingly modest amount though I kid myself my conscience is  eased by
the fact that I tried to talk him out of dumping the Pennsy two years ago
when he first mentioned it.  He had a wonderful collection of HO brass
electrics and first gen.  diesels.  All gone and swapped for G-scale save a
pair of Baldwin 'Pedes which I have on loan, here.

He told me he had got the slides second hand, too, but I didn't ask about
it, unfortunately.
Still, I hope they've come to a good home.   Once they're catalogued and
sorted I might just be able add the odd snippet of info when called upon.
Just with a quick scan through it was interesting to note variations on
diesel
details that were not apparent in my albeit limited photo collection in
books and that "Pete" had a  taste for Tuscan Red E-units and
Baldwins of all descriptions.

Regards,
John H. Wright
Visit the Newcastle & District MRS website at its new URL:
http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ndmrs.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
To: "PRR-Talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: 21 March 2000 18:13
Subject: [PRR] Slide Collection Info Wanted


> To the list,
> I am looking for any help that might lead me to information regarding a
> splendid collection of PRR 35mm colour slides I've just acquired.  The
> collection is around 240 in total and covers the period late 40s to early
> 60s I would guess, with the great majority of diesel and electric classes
> featured and quite a bit of steam, too.  Even a Baltimore street
> tractor is in there.
> The slides are curiously catalogued and based on a kind of a date system
> i.e.  (slide) 39  (set) SEP82P8
> Many are stamped with the legend:  FJC Products,  P.O.Box 3102, Newport,
DE
> 19804
> I tried an internet search with no luck.
> Can anybody tell me if this company still exists as I would like to
enquire
> if they ever produced a describing list that accompanied their slides?
> Though I can guess a few of the locations  such as Horseshoe Curve and the
> hump at Renovo it would be nice if more information was available.
> Grateful for any help you folks can give.










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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:21:59 EST
Subject: [PRR] Check out PRR Search Results

Gize,
  I think someone was looking for photo's on the Horse Express cars, I found 
photo of one while browsing the Otto Perry site.  Also Jerry I think you were 
looking for photo's on Mountains hauling Passenger Trains found some of those 
too.  Steve Hoxie, if you are still in town and haven't headed to the PMA 
meet in Savannah, there is a photo of PA 5755A and a snapper on the point.  
This site is a wealth of good photography system wide and from 1915 to 1955.  
Check it out I have provided a link.  Jerry, you might want to consider 
linking the sight from Keystone Crossings, but I think you might have to get 
permission though.

Greg Martin 






 <A 
HREF="http://gowest.coalliance.org:8080/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?resultsScreen+9403+1+10
+-4">Click here: Search Results</A> 

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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 05:47:04 -0600
From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>
Subject: [PRR] Reading T-1 Whistle

Listers:

I know I've asked this question before, but I don't think I ever got an
answer.  So...I'll ask it again. <G>  Does anyone have an opinion as to
what Soundtraxx whistle would be the closest to the Reading T-1?

Thanks,

Larry


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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:45:17 -0500
From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] M1a Passenger Photo

Gary,
6704 does not look like all other M1a's.  It is the only one which had a
position light mounted on its stack! ;-)

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

===================================================
Gary Mittner wrote:
> 
> Jerry,
> 
>      Here is a photo of M1a #6704 in 1930. She is seen in East Liberty,
> (Pgh.)  in 1930. First car appears to be an R50-b. The M1a looks like
> all other M1a's to my eyes. ......Gary
> 
> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4s/prr6704.jpg
> 
> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA
> 
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--


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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:08:23 -0600 (CST)
From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper)
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s whistle

The PRR CD's ARE a must for any serious Pennsy person.  I play them while working on models.  When my wife is gone the setting is generally just below the volume where the safety valve on the speakers cuts out.  

If you like this kind of sound, I also highly recommend the Norfolk and Western CD that came out last(?) year.  This volume contains recordings by the venerable O.W. Link.  The first 5 or 6 tracks are of 611 on excursion runs.  Later, there is a really great sequences of engines struggling up the hills in rural areas - I think I remember from the description that it was the Virginia Creeper.  On some of those recordings Link must have had the microphone right beside the roadbed.

Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540



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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:14:37 -0600
From: tracker <jp3@cableone.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reading T-1 Whistle

While I have no idea what the Soundtraxx whistles sound like, as a former
fireman on the 2102, it was a deep riverboat style whistle.
Jud Powell

Larry Reynolds wrote:

> Listers:
>
> I know I've asked this question before, but I don't think I ever got an
> answer.  So...I'll ask it again. <G>  Does anyone have an opinion as to
> what Soundtraxx whistle would be the closest to the Reading T-1?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Larry
>
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:33:41 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's x48 boxcars

In a message dated 03/21/2000 19:57:50 Eastern Standard Time, 
doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes:

> On page 50 of PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment, Vol II,
>  there's a shot of PRR 47001 in the shadow keystone scheme.  She has a 6 
> panel
>  Superior door.  According to the caption, PRR only bought 20 of these PS1
>  boxcars, numbering them 47000-47019.
>  
Just a little further information.  The X48 built in 1954 only wore the 
Shadow Keystone and the block lettering plain Keystone.  They never wore the 
Circle Keystone.  Also, be careful with the font of the lettering. 

Rich Orr

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:57:07 -0500
Subject: [PRR] [CR] Tresspassing and Liability; was:  Re: [CR] CROWN
From: Michael Allen <ptrmgtsvc@juno.com>

The Mc Donalds coffee verdict is probably the worst example to use for
runaway verdicts. The reason for the high award was not just that the
coffee was boiling but because the plaintiff's attorney managed to
uncover an internal decision paper which balanced the cost of potential
claims for accidents resulting from serving  superheated coffee [such as
the one which did occur] against the savings to be obtained by using a
much cheaper [low quality] coffee bean and making the coffee in pressure
vessels at 400% F [normal coffee makers are between 195 and 210 %F]. 
What the jury actually did was decide that burning people was not an
acceptable way to save money on making coffee and  made the claim cost
sufficiently high that there was no longer an economic benefit  in taking
the risk.  I believe that as part of the settlement Mc Ds no longer uses
the high pressure/high temperature method.

How this applies to railroads and railfans is that you are not only
basically responsible for your own actions but for exercising a
reasonable amount of care that your actions do not injure others. If we
allow someone onto our property we are accepting the liability for
accidents. If we enter onto sombody else's property where we know we
aren't supposed to be we are accepting the risk ourselves. There are
exceptions both ways.

We have helped get verdicts in favor of tresspassers who were injured on 
a railroad right- of-way and I believe they were justified. I turn down 
well over  fifty percent of such cases on presentation, and after we have
investigated it gets up above ninety percent. And these are cases that
have already made it through a law firm's review.  

The guy who falls off of a ladder and gets hit by a train while stealing
a sign I am not going to work for. He is tresspassing, he is also
stealing. You can't make the argument that he should have been there. 
Its on him.

The guy who is following a well used public footpath, trips on the track
and is run over by a train who's crew could see him a mile away I will
work for. The railroad knew about the path, they never did anything to
close it off. The crew saw the obstruction, decided that it was a garbage
bag, and didn't even try to stop until it was two late. While I feel for
the crew, the railroad is going to eat this one.

For God's Sake guys, think about what your doing out there. I don't want
to be in a lawyer's conference room someday looking at a case file and
find my self saying "I used to know this guy. He was on the RR [or CR,
PRR, NYS&W, et c List]".

MEA

DanRapak@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< Your observations are correct. It's nuts! I don't know if you heard
 about this in the UK or not, but a little while ago there was a woman
 who picked up some food at a McDonald's drive-through window. Included
 in her order was a cup of hot coffee which she placed between her legs.
 In the course of driving, she spilled the coffee and was scalded. She
 sued McDonalds and won several million dollars in damages. >>

On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:18:14 +500 "Brian F.
Gilleran"<bgilleran@macconnect.com> writes:
> >Excuse me for intruding into this line of thought but I know a bit
more of  this case as a working paralegal at the time.  The coffee was
actually BOILING and the woman did not get scalded but got third degree
burns.  Puts a different light on the matter.

> >-Doc Not to wander further into the abyss, but it seems to me that the

> type of drip coffeemakers used at fast food restaurants are not capable
of 
> boiling water...
> 
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________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:43:25 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

Edgar Thompson Works USS  Braddock, PA
Allegheny Ludlum Specialty Steel, Brackenridge, PA
Weirton Steel, Weirton, WV and Wellsboro, WV
Clairton Coke Works USS, Clairton, PA

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:46:06 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Cabin car roof colors

In a message dated 03/21/2000 23:21:45 Eastern Standard Time, 
GPandelios@aol.com writes:

> The MTH RailKing PRR N5c (30-7730) has a yellow cupola.  The car is marked 
as:
> 
>      Blt 3-41
>      Rpkd AC 2-6-59
>  
>  Usually MTH is pretty good about car markings.
>  
The standard roof color on cabin cars was black for all but pool cars, MOW 
and the orange cabins.  Orange cabins had both orange and black roofs.  Pool 
cabins could have either yellow roofs or gray roofs depending on the normal 
travel direction of the pool -- east-west or north-south.

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:49:40 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's x48 boxcars - doors and end color

In a message dated 03/22/2000 02:31:17 Eastern Standard Time, 
RickTipton@aol.com writes:

>  While you're looking at 47003 (one twentieth of the total fleet of 
>  X48's),  you may contemplate the great mystery - is this a black end, or 
is 
>  it freight-car-colored?  Since this is a b&w photo, an ironclad answer is 
>  dificult, but it doesn't look very black to me -- 
>  
Rick:

Black ends were an early "trade mark" of PS.  The 20 X48 class cars were 
delivered with black ends.  Being much to PRR's dislike, the ends were 
repainted Freight Car Color the first time the cars were shopped for anything.

Rich Orr

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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s whistle
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:33:29 -0500

There were three locomotives that used to terrorize me if I stood too close.
One was a NYC Niagara, the second was a NKP Berkshire, and the third,
believe it or not, was the GG-1.  Watching one go by at speed on the
platform track at Princeton Jcn. had you diving for cover!  Awesome!

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

-----Original Message-----
From: BigHookX45@aol.com <BigHookX45@aol.com>
To: boxcar46@nfdc.net <boxcar46@nfdc.net>; prr-talk@dsop.com
<prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1s whistle


>In a message dated 00-03-21 22:02:16 EST, you write:
>
>> On trips to the mountains....I saw T's and M's and even some I's....but
the
>>  best was those GG1's ( I was young at the time !) The smoke gods will
>>  forgive me for that one....
>
>Never apologize for liking the GG1s.  They were unique, and are honorary
>steam locomotives as far as I'm concerned.
>
>Rick
>
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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:34:50 -0500
Subject: [PRR] New Macintosh DCC List
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

If anyone is using Macintosh computers and is interested in DCC control via
the computer, I was just alerted to the MAC_DCC list at onelist.com. I
joined, in digest mode. There are 61 other subscribers. I can't attest to
how good it is, but there it is!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
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For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
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For Dealers and Manufacturers
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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:12:10 -0500
From: Jeff Knorek <jknorek@mail.msen.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

Greetings-
So that's four in 2000.  How many do ya'll
think existed in 1944?

SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote:

> Edgar Thompson Works USS  Braddock, PA
> Allegheny Ludlum Specialty Steel, Brackenridge, PA
> Weirton Steel, Weirton, WV and Wellsboro, WV
> Clairton Coke Works USS, Clairton, PA


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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:30:40 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Reading Branch at Lancaster
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

I'm looking for the name of the Reading Co. branch that bisects the PRR west
of Lancaster at the location the PRR called Dillerville Junction.

For PRR experts, its just west of CORK interlocking and, facing west, the
main line and the Columbia Branch have just parted ways.

The Reading line, coming from the west, comes parallel to the PRR main line,
crosses over it (turnouts), then leaves the main. It then bisects the
Columbia Branch and travels parallel to the PRR's Dillerville Yard.

Anyone got a name of this Reading branch for me?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:37:11 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Rockville PA
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

An interesting observation...

I was reading the CT1000E from 1945 (every bathroom should have one!),
following the Philadelphia Division along the main. When you get to
Rockville, it indicates a junction with the Reading Company, and no
connection to the Williamsport Division.

So I did a "reverse lookup" and went to the Williamsport Division section.
It shows the connection with the Philadelphia Division at Rockville!

Now why would one division reference it as another PRR division, but another
reference it as another railroad?

I know the stretch between Sunbury and Williamsport (I believe) was
originally P&E, with trackage rights attained by the Northern Central
Railway, which later was leased by the PRR for 999 years. But where does the
Reading Company come into play here?

Inquiring minds want to know!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville PA
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 100 16:02:43 -0500 (EST)

Jerry Britton scribit:
> I was reading the CT1000E from 1945 (every bathroom should have one!),
> following the Philadelphia Division along the main. When you get to
> Rockville, it indicates a junction with the Reading Company, and no
> connection to the Williamsport Division.
> 
> So I did a "reverse lookup" and went to the Williamsport Division section.
> It shows the connection with the Philadelphia Division at Rockville!
> 
> Now why would one division reference it as another PRR division, but another
> reference it as another railroad?
> 
> I know the stretch between Sunbury and Williamsport (I believe) was
> originally P&E, with trackage rights attained by the Northern Central
> Railway, which later was leased by the PRR for 999 years. But where does the
> Reading Company come into play here?

Jerry,
as I recall from past Harrisburg Chapter NRHS meetings, RDG ran a "circle"
passenger service from Phila (I think) through the coal regions to Shamokin
to Sunbury, then on trackage rights to Rockville and Capitol, then back
to Reading (and Phila?).

IIRC there was no physical connection at Rockville, but don't hold me to it.
Please inquire with the Harrisburg Chapter guys. Fred Wertz, if he doesn't
know, will be able to tell you whom to contact about this.

-- 
Mark

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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:43:12 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville PA
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 5/11/39 4:02 PM, Mark Bej at (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:

> as I recall from past Harrisburg Chapter NRHS meetings, RDG ran a "circle"
> passenger service from Phila (I think) through the coal regions to Shamokin
> to Sunbury, then on trackage rights to Rockville and Capitol, then back
> to Reading (and Phila?).
> 
> IIRC there was no physical connection at Rockville, but don't hold me to it.
> Please inquire with the Harrisburg Chapter guys. Fred Wertz, if he doesn't
> know, will be able to tell you whom to contact about this.
> 
But the Reading having trackage rights doesn't explain why Penny's own
CT1000 list the connection the Reading Co., but not to its own Williamsport
Division!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

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providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
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From: "jbreon" <jbreon@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reading Branch at Lancaster
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:52:31 -0500


Jerry asked:


>I'm looking for the name of the Reading Co. branch that bisects the PRR
west
>of Lancaster at the location the PRR called Dillerville Junction.

Jerry,
      I've got a Reading system map on the wall in my office. Snuck out a
little early today, but I'll check it out in the morning.
Jerry Breon




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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:55:39 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville PA

--- Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com> wrote:
> An interesting observation...
> 
> I was reading the CT1000E from 1945 (every bathroom
> should have one!),
> following the Philadelphia Division along the main.
> When you get to
> Rockville, it indicates a junction with the Reading
> Company, and no
> connection to the Williamsport Division.
> 
> So I did a "reverse lookup" and went to the
> Williamsport Division section.
> It shows the connection with the Philadelphia
> Division at Rockville!
> 
> Now why would one division reference it as another
> PRR division, but another
> reference it as another railroad?
> 
<snip>

I don't have specific knowlege of the situation you
ask about, but this is typical of the sort of thing
which caused me to remark some time ago that "the
CT1000 is not the bible one could hope for".

One aspect of the CT1000 which has emerged from much
reading of it is that each division seemed to have its
own idea as to just what they were supposed to report
to the 5th Vice President for CT1000 Publication.

(I'm thinking primarily of the 1923 CT1000, but I
assume these remarks would apply to the later one as
well.) In the vicinity of Atlantic City, Chicago, and
Oil City, I find dupicate descriptions of the same
track, except they are not exact duplicates. That
caused me a lot of puzzlement before I noticed the
similarity between a list on page 189 and one on page
263.

On the other hand, here and there there are unfilled
gaps, where one division says "here I end at a
junction with <some other division>", but the other
division doesn't mention that junction.

Similarly, the Monongahela Division claimed to meet
the Pgh Div. Southside tracks at one point, the Pgh
Div. claimed to meet the Mon. Div. at a point about
3.5 miles closer to Pittsburgh. I doubt that the
trains levitated over the gap, I assume one of the
lists is in error, but which one?

To respond to "now why would one division...", perhaps
Philadelphia division reported the track as belonging
to another railroad because it did, even though
Philadelphia division used it; while the Williamsport
division saw the junction with that track as the point
where trains left their hands and became the
responsibility of the Philadelphia division, and they
didn't care whose track it was, since it wasn't
theirs.

"The CT1000 is not the bible one could hope for."
 


=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From: FredAbend@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:06:38 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reading Branch at Lancaster

Jerry,
>From Reading Company Reading Division ETT No. 51, Sunday, April 30, 1950:
The entire line from Sinking Spring (near Reading) through all of its splits 
to Joint Line Junction, Lancaster, and Columbia was the Reading and Columbia 
Branch.  The line got its name from the original railroad, the Reading & 
Columbia Railroad.
--Fred Abendschein

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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:34:57 -0500
From: Dan Cupper <cupper@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville PA



Jerry Britton wrote:

> An interesting observation...
>
> I was reading the CT1000E from 1945 (every bathroom should have one!),
> following the Philadelphia Division along the main. When you get to
> Rockville, it indicates a junction with the Reading Company, and no
> connection to the Williamsport Division.
>
> So I did a "reverse lookup" and went to the Williamsport Division section.
> It shows the connection with the Philadelphia Division at Rockville!
>
> Now why would one division reference it as another PRR division, but another
> reference it as another railroad?
>
> I know the stretch between Sunbury and Williamsport (I believe) was
> originally P&E, with trackage rights attained by the Northern Central
> Railway, which later was leased by the PRR for 999 years. But where does the
> Reading Company come into play here?
>
> Inquiring minds want to know!

Jerry:

Hard as it may seem to believe, the Reading actually entered Rockville and had a
junction with PRR there, including a public delivery siding.

Reading's Schuylkill & Susquehanna branch meandered westward from Auburn (on the
Philadelphia-Pottsville main line) through Pine Grove, to Dauphin. There, it
turned southward and paralleled the PRR's Rockville Branch to Rockville. RDG
passenger trains from Auburn entered Harrisburg via trackage rights over PRR for
the last 5-6 miles from Rockville to Harrisburg (there were two trains each way
in 1905)  The S&S was abandoned about 1945 and became the state's first
rail-trail, even though it wasn't called that back then, when it became part of
the state game lands.

And speaking of the Reading, the answer to your other question is that the line
that crossed PRR just outside Lancaster is part of the Reading & Columbia
Branch. The main part of the R&C Branch ran from Sinking Spring (on hte
Reading-Lebanon-Harrisburg line) to Columbia, crossing PRR's Harrisburg line at
Landisville. A 7.8-mile branch off the main R&C branch diverged from that branch
at Lancaster Jct., near East Petersburg, and ran to Lancaster.

Hope this helps.

Dan



Dan Cupper
cupper@mciworld.com
Acts 4:12


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From: John Cooper <johncoop@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Acknowledger
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:57:34 -0800

Speaking of acknowledgers and ATC, here's a related question.

On the PRR MU equipment I've seen, the controller was spring loaded to
return to the idle position.  It seemed like the engineer had to press
either the acknowledger or possibly a different pedal when he let the
controller return to the center idle position.  I assume the train would
otherwise go into emergency.  Sometimes I saw the engineer was very
deliberate about this, even when stopped at a station.  But other times when
stopped in a station, I'd see the engineer completely walk away from the
control stand.  Does anyone know exactly how this worked?

Also, below the controller on the controller housing, there were two holes
that looked like cigarette lighter recepticals.  The engineer would insert
something in these holes that looked like a cigarette lighter adapter.  If I
recall they were labelled "control" and "reset"  Usually the "control" hole
was used, but every once in a while I might see him move it to the "reset"
hole and back.  Any idea what this accomplished?

John

> ----------
> From: 	davep[SMTP:davep@quik.com]
> Sent: 	Monday, March 20, 2000 8:56 PM
> To: 	doug.kisala
> Cc: 	Wayne S. Betty; prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject: 	[PRR] Acknowledger
> 
> 
> 
> "doug.kisala" wrote:
>  
> > Wayne, list,
> 
> > Please forgive this unenlightened question:
> >what's an acknowledger, as applied to steam power?
> 
> 	Same thing as applied to diesel power...
> 	8)>>
> 
> 	Its part of ATC (Automatic Train Control.  When a train runs
> 	past a signal more restricting than what it has been running
> 	under, a whistle sounds.
> 
> 	The engineer has 'foo' seconds to 'acknowledge' either by
> 	braking, OR by operating the acknowledger.  In some cases,
> 	the proper thing is NOT to apply the brake, hence the
> 	acknowledger, by which the runner 'says':
> 		Yep I am under a more restricting signal.
> 		Yep I am awake & alert
> 		Yep I think the thing to do is NOT to brake.
> 
> 	Its only recently that 'puters have begun to approach
> 	the abilities of a competent engineer...
> 
> 	If the acknowledger is not operated, the brakes apply automatically.
> 
> 	When cab signals/atc first came out, the automatics were a Lot
> 	Stupider.
> 
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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] RE: Cabin car roof colors
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:39:01 -0000


Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Cabin car roof colors
From: <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:46:06 EST

Rich stated>
The standard roof color on cabin cars was black for all but pool cars, MOW
and the orange cabins.  Orange cabins had both orange and black roofs.  Pool
cabins could have either yellow roofs or gray roofs depending on the normal
travel direction of the pool -- east-west or north-south.
------------------------------------------

This is not exactly correct. The MW cabins had both yellow and black roofs.
When the MW car color was changed from gray to yellow the initial specs call
for an all yellow car, including roof. This was subsequently changed to
black, and further changed on the Pullman conversions to aluminum.
Also the yellow and gray on the pool cabins was applied to the cupola not
the roof of the car.

Al


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:58:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Cabin car roof colors

List,

     According to a back issue of the Keystone (1972?) the first time
the pool cabins recieved the yelow or gray color, 1961?,  the color was
only applied to the side sheets of the cupola, not the whole cupola.
This practice didn't last long though. A few months if my memory recalls
the article. So if you model the early months of 1961, you can add this
version of the pool cabins to your roster. I did one right after the
Bowser N5-C's were released. I eventually sold it off becuse it was not
my era. Is there one pictured in Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania
Railroad?. If not, there is a color photo somewhere I remember
seeing....Gary 




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:00:07 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

In a message dated 00-03-22 14:23:43 EST, you write:

> Greetings-
>  So that's four in 2000.  How many do ya'll
>  think existed in 1944?

OK, off the top of my memory:

Youngstown Sheet & Tube Brier Hill and Campbell Works
USS Ohio Works
Republic Steel Warren and Youngstown Works
Sharon Steel Corp. Farrell and Lowellville Works
USS Duquesne, Clairton, Mckeesport, Edgar Thomson, Homestead
J&L Pittsburgh Works
Pittsburgh Steel- Monessen, PA
National Steel- Weirton
Wheeling Steel- Mingo Jct.
USS Fairless Works

and many more which I would have to research before saying one way or the 
other.

Rick


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:01:05 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Andy Miller on Baggage vs. Express

In a message dated 3/22/2000 6:18:02 PM Central Standard Time, 
tmadden@netcom.com writes:

<< Furthermore consist
 sheets frequently showed cars designated as MS-60s. I believe these were
 B60 baggage cars in mail service.  There was a separate indication if
 they were sealed, so of them were and some were not.  Presumably an
 unsealed baggage car in mail service had an attendant.  I don't think
 the Post Office would allow mail to go unattended and unsealed.   If it
 was attended it was probably because the attendant dropped sealed bags
 of mail off at various stops along the line.  If the entire car was a
 unit shipment to the end of the line, then it was probably just sealed.
 That's enough guessing for one e-mail
  >>

Please allow some more guessing, hopefully an educated guess. I will check 
more when I have time, but I think the MS60s that were listed as "open" were 
attached to an RPO and were worked.  As I said, I will check ASAP.  
Otherwise, does anyone know if US Post Office employees occupied the 
"messenger"-equipped B60s for mail service?

Bob Zoeller

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:05:05 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Cabin car roof colors

I believe the steel cars started out with freight car color roofs, didn't 
they? Will check again tonight to find the date of the changeover.  I always 
thought it was late 40s, like the end lettering change.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:42:47 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Bel-Del Branch
From: Michael Allen <ptrmgtsvc@juno.com>

John,

1. Can you give me a cross road or a landmark for the signal?

2. Which James River plant?
	There is the one still active at Milford served by the Del-Bel, an
abandonded one 	at Reiglesville which was served by the Bel-Del and what
is now Warren Paper[?] 	in Pohatcong which was served by the LV  

MEA

On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:27:24 -0600 John Sheets <johnit@interaccess.com>
writes:
> John wrote:
> 
> > I have employee timetables only from the last few years of operation
of the Bel-Del, but a quick perusal of Warren Lee's excellent book "Down
Along the Old Bel-Del" shows no indication that the line was ever
signalled. 
> 
> There is (was) a one aspect position light signal lying along the 
> abandoned roadbed about 1/2 way between Trenton and Lambertville on the

> Pennsylvania side, viewable from the NJ side.
> 
> Also, as I did some consulting work at the then active James River
plant south of Phillipsburg several years ago, there was a lot of siganl
boxes etc. along the branch including some signal mast mounting blaocks. 

> 
> Now since most of this was no-where near any junctions or
interlockings, it would seem to indicate the Bel-Del had some sort of
block signals.
> 
> Also PRR Eastern Reg EET  #18 form 1964 makes ref to: (PPG 199 - use of
signals)1027-A1 Belvidere Deleware Br - Frenchtown and crew action  when
they encounter a dark "clear block indication".  Also, existence of 5 
Block stations and 10 block limit stations.
> 
> John
> 
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From: WAyersRR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:23:29 EST
Subject: [PRR] Crestline Questions

Dear List,
I am beginning to plan my next layout which will focus on Crestline, Ohio, 
ca.1952. I have the ICC Vualuation Report but unfortunatly it was done ( 
May-June,1917) before the facilities were moved to the west end of town . It 
does have several good photos of some of the original buildings (with rolling 
stock, but no engines), including the passenger station. Does anyone know:
1. Is it possible to obtain plans for the station?
2. Where can plans for the USRA design enginehouse such as at Crestline 
(assuming the photo caption is correct in Pennsy Q Class, p. 50) be located 
and when was it built? 
3.  A yard map was published in Pennsy Journal, Vol. 2 #4, Fall 1982. If 
anyone has a copy of this issue and is willing to copy the map and any text 
for me, please contact me off-line to make arrangements.
4. For all you engine nuts out there, what classes and engine  #'s (steam and 
diesel) were assigned to Crestline in 1952, or where might I find this info?

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From: WAyersRR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:29:21 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: Crestline questions

Dear list, 

I was running auto AOL and my Cresline questions went before it was finished. 
I lived there when I was a teen and was wondering when the top 2 floors of 
the passenger station were torn  off. We moved there in 1961 so I know it was 
done before then.

Thanks in advance.

Bill Ayers

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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:29:28 EST
Subject: [PRR] TWO Rockvilles!!!

Folks,

By the way, according to Ken Kobus and Jack Consoli's book (excellent by the 
way!) "The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle", there were 2 Rockville 
towers (page 45).

Does that confuse things more? ;^)

George

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From: WAyersRR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:29:44 EST
Subject: [PRR] Crestline Questions

Dear List,
I am beginning to plan my next layout which will focus on Crestline, Ohio, 
ca.1952. I have the ICC Vualuation Report but unfortunatly it was done ( 
May-June,1917) before the facilities were moved to the west end of town . It 
does have several good photos of some of the original buildings (with rolling 
stock, but no engines), including the passenger station. Does anyone know:
1. Is it possible to obtain plans for the station?
2. Where can plans for the USRA design enginehouse (assuming the photo 
caption is correct in Pennsy Q Class, p. 50) such as at Crestline be located 
and when was it built? 
3.  A yard map was published in Pennsy Journal, Vol. 2 #4, Fall 1982. If 
anyone has a copy of this issue and is willing to copy the map and any text 
for me, please contact me off-line.
4. For all you engine nuts out there, what classes and engine  #'s (steam and 
diesel) were assigned to Crestline in 1952, or where might I find this info?

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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Whistle and Acknowledger
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:55:21 -0500

Howdy List:
Sorry for the delay, the Whistle and Acknowledger that I referred to in an
earlier post is for train communication.  The ATC Acknowledger is a later
invention - utilizing an electric/pneumatic control to sense the signal
indication and then time out on the brakes.

The Whistle and Acknowledger that I was referred to was also called Train
Air Signals.  A diagram for them is found in the 1941 Locomotive Cyclopedia
on page 811.  It shows a Westinghouse No. 8-ET Steam Locomotive Brake.
Included is the Signal Whistle, and "C" Engine Signal Valve.  This is
connected to a 3/4inch "signal pipe"  It ran along side the "brake pipe" and
was connected via a standard size air hose.

" Train Air Signals
The Train Air Signal Apparatus is a substitute for the older bell cord
method of passenger train signal and is arranged to give train signals by
the use of compressed air.  A separate line or signal pipe, similar to the
brake pipe. extends throughout the train, being connected between the cars
by hose and couplings.  A car discharge valve, connected to this signal
pipe, is located in each car and attached to the bell cord in such manner
that pulling on the cord releases air from the signal pipe.  In the cab on
the engine or motor car is a signal valve, which is also connected with the
main signal pipe and a small signal whistle.  The supply of air is received
from the main reservoir through a reducing valve, which maintains a pressure
of about 45 lb. per square inch in the signal apparatus.
When the car discharge valve is opened, by pulling on the cord, the
diaphragm in the signal valve is operated so as to blow the whistle.
Signals can be given in this way with rapidity and great certainty.  If the
train breaks in two the whistle is blown loudly for a considerable time."

A more in-depth description is given in the 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia, on
page 979.

On the PRR most late model steam locomotives had this option, listed were
locos in the B6sb, E5s, E6s, G5s, H9s, H10s, I1s, I1sa, J1, J1a,  K2s, K2sa,
K3s, K4s, L1s, M1, M1a, M1b, N2sa, Q2 and S1 class.  The Electrics had them
also, all GG1's, P5 series, O1 series, L6 series, R1, DD2, some of the DD1s
and the MP54s.  You'll need to check your specific engine and passenger car
to be sure that it had the signal pipe.

Article 16 of the1956 Book of Rules still listed 11 signals.

Cos
Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road
NMRA, Mid-East Region, Susquehanna Division 11
Home Page http://www.wsbcos.com
Train Page http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm
100 mb of web space for  $25.00 per month from
MyCyberLink.net


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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reading Branch at Lancaster
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:50:36 -0500

Howdy Jerry and PRR-Talk:

The other day I was out and about and caught the Lititz local coming out of
Lancaster.
I just happened to have a few extra minutes and chased the train up to
Manheim.
I posted a picture of NS GP15-1 1412 at Lancaster Junction PA.  The engine
is on the "branch" to Lancaster and the main line used to be in front of it.
The switch (to Columbia) was just a little way North yet.  The old main line
is now a rail trail.
http://www.wsbcos.com/rcjob001.jpg

If you can find it, the Autumn 1963 (Issued 14 September 1964) Journal of
the Lancaster County Historical Society contains a very complete history (up
to that time 1962) of The Reading and Columbia Railroad, by John D. Denney,
Jr.

And a heads up for Dr. Bruce: It has a great picture of the coal loading
wharf at Columbia PA.

Cos
Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road
NMRA, Mid-East Region, Susquehanna Division 11
Home Page http://www.wsbcos.com
Train Page http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm
100 mb of web space for  $25.00 per month from
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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:54:16 -0500
From: davep <davep@quik.com>
Subject: [PRR] Control Plug

John Cooper wrote:
 
> Speaking of acknowledgers and ATC, here's a related question.
 
> On the PRR MU equipment I've seen, the controller was spring loaded to
> return to the idle position.  It seemed like the engineer had to press
> either the acknowledger or possibly a different pedal when he let the
> controller return to the center idle position.  I assume the train would
> otherwise go into emergency.

	Without checking, I think a full service, rather than emergency.
	I could be wrong.

> Sometimes I saw the engineer was very deliberate about this, even when
> stopped at a station.  But other times when stopped in a station, I'd
>see the engineer completely walk away from the
> control stand.  Does anyone know exactly how this worked?

	Once stopped and with air brakes on, the controller reacst differntly.
 
> Also, below the controller on the controller housing, there were two holes
> that looked like cigarette lighter recepticals.  The engineer would insert
> something in these holes that looked like a cigarette lighter adapter.  If I
> recall they were labelled "control" and "reset"  Usually the "control" hole
> was used, but every once in a while I might see him move it to the "reset"
> hole and back.  Any idea what this accomplished?

	IIR, it was called the 'control plug' (i could look it up, if need be.)
	Basically, it activates that control stand (and, implicitly,
	deactivates the others.

	Certain alarms, possibly including failure to acknowledge, were reset
	by plugging it into the 'reset' plug.  Think of it as sort of an
	ignition key.
 
	best
	dwp

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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:30:23 -0600
From: John Sheets <johnit@interaccess.com>
Subject: [PRR] Re: T-1 Whistle

> While I have no idea what the Soundtraxx whistles sound like, as a former
> fireman on the 2102, it was a deep riverboat style whistle.
> Jud Powell
> 

And I believe that the last whistles used on the RDG T-1s, by then in Ramble
Service, were chime whistles from RDG G-3 Pacifics

John

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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:09:48 -0500
From: "David (Fresh) Freshwater" <dfresh20@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

Rich,

Not sure where Wellsboro, WV, is, or even if it exists.  I was raised in
Wellsburg, WV; it is about 7 miles down river from Weirton - where my
dad worked in the shipping department at the mill.

On the west bank of the Ohio, there are two additional mills within 7
miles of Weirton Steel - the Wheeling Pittsburgh Steubenville works and
the Mingo works.  Both are along the old PRR River Branch - but I am not
sure that service today is from NS.  CR was servicing them, but the
Wheeling and Lake Erie has track in there too.  Across from the
Stuebenville works, on the east bank of the Ohio, is the Wheeling Pitt
Coke Plant.  Transfers bewteen the two are by their own RR, including
the bridge across the river.  NS did take over what's left of the old
Wheeling Branch on the east bank of the river.

Dave Freshwater

-------------Message Separator---------------------
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS
From: <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:43:25 EST

Edgar Thompson Works USS  Braddock, PA
Allegheny Ludlum Specialty Steel, Brackenridge, PA
Weirton Steel, Weirton, WV and Wellsboro, WV
Clairton Coke Works USS, Clairton, PA

Rich Orr


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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:33:02 -0500
From: Park Varieties <parkvarieties@provide.net>
Subject: [PRR] C-Liner Antennas

Has anybody given any thought as to which Cal-Scale  antenna set would
best suit the upcoming Life-Like C-Liner?  Lee English at Bowser has
advised me that he
has no plans to do a C-Liner set and could not offer any suggestions.

Frank Brua


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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:57:56 -0600
From: tracker <jp3@cableone.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

Republic Steel Works - Canton

BigHookX45@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 00-03-22 14:23:43 EST, you write:
>
> > Greetings-
> >  So that's four in 2000.  How many do ya'll
> >  think existed in 1944?
>
> OK, off the top of my memory:
>
> Youngstown Sheet & Tube Brier Hill and Campbell Works
> USS Ohio Works
> Republic Steel Warren and Youngstown Works
> Sharon Steel Corp. Farrell and Lowellville Works
> USS Duquesne, Clairton, Mckeesport, Edgar Thomson, Homestead
> J&L Pittsburgh Works
> Pittsburgh Steel- Monessen, PA
> National Steel- Weirton
> Wheeling Steel- Mingo Jct.
> USS Fairless Works
>
> and many more which I would have to research before saying one way or the
> other.
>
> Rick
>
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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:20:53 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Another CT1000 Observation
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

My perusal of the 1945 CT1000 also took me to Lewistown Junction in
Lewistown, Pa. At this location the very short Milroy Branch connects to the
main line in the Middle Division.

Just a stone's throw up the Milroy Branch is the junction with the
Wilkes-Barre Division's Lewistown Branch.

That got me to thinking....why would the Lewistown Branch be in the
Wilkes-Barre Division?

It runs between Lewistown (Middle Division) and ends at Sunbury
(Williamsport Division). All of the other territory it runs through is
Williamsport Division. So why, then, was the Lewistown Branch part of the
W-B Division?

I did a "reverse search" from the Williamsport Division portion of the
CT1000. No record. Looked it up in the W-B portion and it is there. It would
seem that all divisions involved concur on this one.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
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For Dealers and Manufacturers
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:30:03 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

In a message dated 03/22/2000 9:15:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
BigHookX45@aol.com writes:

<< Youngstown Sheet & Tube Brier Hill and Campbell Works
 USS Ohio Works
 Republic Steel Warren and Youngstown Works
 Sharon Steel Corp. Farrell and Lowellville Works
 USS Duquesne, Clairton, Mckeesport, Edgar Thomson, Homestead
 J&L Pittsburgh Works
 Pittsburgh Steel- Monessen, PA
 National Steel- Weirton
 Wheeling Steel- Mingo Jct.
 USS Fairless Works
  >>
Add
Bethlehem Steel - Ambridge
American Bridge - Ambridge
Shenago Steel - Neville
J&L Aliquippa
Heppenstall - Pittsburgh

let me think about this some more.

Rich Orr

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From: Paul Stumpff <urr304@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:55:12 -0500

If we are talking past facilities, please add Shenango Steel in Sharpsville.

I am confused where this thread started. By title, it is existing steel facilities; most listed are gone. 

Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio]



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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:43:26 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

--- Paul Stumpff <urr304@alltel.net> wrote:
<snip>
> I am confused where this thread started. By title,
> it is existing steel facilities; most listed are
> gone. 

I think it started with something like "Here are the
steel mills I know of. How does that compare with the
good old days?"




=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From: "Brady Burdge" <burdgeb@interquest.de>
Subject: [PRR] New Cabin Car
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:57:06 +0100

Williams is going to produce an N5c in O gauge.

http://www.williamstrains.com/caboosepreview.htm



Brady
http://ogauge.homestead.com/




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From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:22:59 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

US Gary was not serviced by CR. It is serviced by the EJ&E as was South 
Works.  Beth Burns Harbor was a CR customer as well as Midwest Div. of 
National next door.  Inland was serviced by the IHB but INTEK is in New 
Alexandria and serviced by CR.  J&L and YS&T were CR customers.

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From: John Cooper <johncoop@microsoft.com>
Subject: [PRR] RE: Bel-Del Branch
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:23:07 -0800

I forwarded the Bel-Del Branch thread to my father who worked as a block
operator in Lambertville.  His comments are appended below.

> ----------
> From: 	RRRailer@aol.com[SMTP:RRRailer@aol.com]
> Sent: 	Wednesday, March 22, 2000 1:55 PM
> To: 	John Cooper
> Subject: 	Bel-Del Branch
> 
> 
> After I got out of the Navy, in the Spring of 1946, I reported back to the
> 
> PRR in order to protect my Block Operator seniority, and that's when they 
> sent me to work at Lambertville and Frenchtown.  That only lasted about
> six 
> weeks until it was time to go back to the summer session at MIT, which
> began 
> in late June.  I worked a 6-day relief schedule: one day on each trick at 
> Lambertville and at Frenchtown.  To answer some of the questions: the 
> operation was indeed Timetable and Train Order under Manual Block Signal 
> System Rules.  At Lambertville, as at many other points, it was standard
> PRR 
> practice to give each switch a number.  Thus, the switches at Lambertville
> 
> were known (from North to South) as Switch 1, Switch 2, etc.  The long 
> passing siding north of town extended from Switch 1 to Switch 3, and the 
> shorter passing siding south of town from Switch 4 to Switch 5.  The 
> Flemington Branch switch was in between Switch 1 and Switch 3, so it was 
> known as Switch 2.  I don't ever remember it being known as Flemington 
> Junction for operating purposes, but I wouldn't be surprised to find it 
> called that in the CT1000.  This was a thick, timetable-sized volume that 
> listed all stations and branches: primarily for the purposes of Car
> Movement 
> Reporting.  As for "Bum Junction",  I never heard it.
> 
> The arrangement of signals at Lambertville is something the others might
> be 
> interested in.  To this day, I don't think anybody ever knew exactly what 
> rules were in effect there.  Ostensibly, Lambertville was just an 
> intermediate point in Manual Block Signal System territory.  However, it
> had 
> a little, three lever table-top control machine which could change four 
> signals from their normal postion of Stop Signal.  Two signals were
> located 
> directly opposite each other South of town.  One was the Southbound Block 
> Signal, which displayed Permissive Block or Clear Block for Southbound
> trains 
> and the other was the Northbound Home Signal which displayed either
> Approach 
> or Clear for Northbound trains depending on the indication of the
> Northbound 
> Block Signal.  The  other two signals were located directly opposite each 
> other North of town similarly as Northbound  Block Signal and Southbound
> Home 
> Signal.  The question is: what type of rules were in effect between the
> two 
> Home Signals?  Certainly not Manual Block Rules: there was clearly a gap
> in 
> the continuity of the Manual Block System between the Home signals. 
> Furthermore, the Home Signals didn't display Manual Block indications:
> they 
> displayed indications that you would expect to find In Automatic Block 
> territory or at an Interlocking.  But: the Bel-Del certainly wasn't
> Automatic 
> Block and Lambertville wasn't an Interlocking.  The only safety feature
> was 
> the fact that Lever 2 in the control machine controlled both Home Signals.
> 
> Left for the Northbound and Right for the Southbound, so it was physically
> 
> impossible to display them both at the same time and, if the track was 
> occupied between them, you couldn't display either one.  I honestly don't 
> know if they had a Stop-and-Proceed indication or not, but I don't think
> so.
> 
> Frenchtown was a little simpler.  It was indeed an Interlocking, just
> south 
> of the station, consisting of a crossover from the main track to the
> siding, 
> Northbound  and Southbound Home signals which governed through the 
> interlocking and displayed the block indication for movement beyond, and
> two 
> low-type Home Signals on the siding, which actually extended through the 
> interlocking to a short "house track" stub at the station.
> 
> I never worked at "G" Tower, but I recollect that it was a complete 
> Mechanical Interlocking.  There were a few other signals on the Bel-Del.
> Of 
> course, there were distant signals for Lambertville, Frenchtown and "G",
> and 
> then there were what were known as "Distant Switch Indicators".  These
> were 
> located in the approach to most, but I don't think all, facing point 
> switches.  They were of two types.  The older ones were semaphores and
> were 
> "line-controlled": that is, they normally displayed Clear but would
> display 
> Caution if the switch were misaligned.  However, the control was strictly
> by 
> line wires: no track circuit was involved, so they weren't actuated by a 
> train.  The other type were regular position-light type signals and were 
> track-circuit controlled so they would display Caution if a switch were 
> misaligned or when actuated by a train.
> 
> When I worked at Lambertville, the Block Operator was also the ticket
> clerk, 
> the express clerk, and the crossing watchman. That last job required some 
> fancy footwork to get out and flag the crossing at night with a red
> lantern 
> (shielded so that an approaching train woudln't see it) while getting
> ready 
> to hoop up two sets of train orders to a pair of L1's, double-headed on a 
> southbound train, bearing down on you at 45 miles per hour and whistling
> like 
> a banshee for the crossing.
> 
> My recollections of Frenchtown aren't quite as sharp, but I do remember
> that 
> in 1946 the Bel-Del was selected to test the PRR's Inductive "Trainphone" 
> Communication System.  This was supposed to be a low frequency alternative
> to 
> radio and depended on inductive coupling between the train and the wayside
> 
> pole line wires.  It certainly didn't work very well on the Bel-Del
> whenever 
> I used it to try and communicate with a train, and I'm not sure it ever 
> worked very well anywhere else although it eventually was installed 
> systemwide and then junked after a few years in favor of radio.  Working
> the 
> Manual Block System at Frenchtown was a little bit different than 
> Lambertville. The Block Operators at "MG" (Trenton), Lambertville and 
> Frenchtown always communicated with each other in blocking trains, but
> north 
> of Frenchtown, you were "on your own".  The Block Operators at "G" Tower 
> wouldn't participate in blocking trains between Frenchtown and
> Phillipsburg; 
> likewise, they wouldn't consult Frenchtown when blocking trains between 
> Phillipsburg and Belvedere.  I always thought this negated one of the 
> principal safety features of the Manual Block System,  but I wasn't
> involved 
> there long enough to try and do anything about it.
> 
> Dad
> 

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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:41:05 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: [PRR] X-31f

Howdy,

When it rains, it pours!  It seems just Sunday, I was looking through my
brothers copy of the NEB&W (RPI's incredible model RR) books on steam era
modeling when I noticed a photo of a PRR X-31f "turtleback" boxcar.  The
caption noted that this car was built to carry Jeeps.  I started thinking
about kitbashing one from a Bowser X-31.  Then, yesterday, those of you who
are on the Merchandise Service lsit will know that Bowser now has the X-31f
(http://www.bowser-trains.com/New%20HO.htm) and it is available through
Jerry.

Was this car really designed to carry jeeps?
Was this the exclusive use?

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry
       _               _
      / \             / \
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 | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |
 |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_|
 | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O | |=| 0==0                      0==0 |=|




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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:02:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] X-31f
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/23/00 1:41 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu)
wrote:

> When it rains, it pours!  It seems just Sunday, I was looking through my
> brothers copy of the NEB&W (RPI's incredible model RR) books on steam era
> modeling when I noticed a photo of a PRR X-31f "turtleback" boxcar.  The
> caption noted that this car was built to carry Jeeps.  I started thinking
> about kitbashing one from a Bowser X-31.  Then, yesterday, those of you who
> are on the Merchandise Service lsit will know that Bowser now has the X-31f
> (http://www.bowser-trains.com/New%20HO.htm) and it is available through
> Jerry.
> 
> Was this car really designed to carry jeeps?
> Was this the exclusive use?
> 
Yesterday I received Bowser's new color car catalog. Under the photos of the
new X-31f's, it also indicates that they were used to carry jeeps during
WWII. It further indicates that some of the cars were equipped with
autoloaders.

It is doubtful that they only carried jeeps, but perhaps autos in general.
But still, they did not put "AUTOMOBILES" on the side.

I have these kits in stock at this time. Three car numbers are available.

I am also accepting advance reservations on the soon-to-be-released K-9,
K-11, and X-33 cars as well.

Be advised that my web site is down at the moment, but will return to
service no later than 4:30 p.m. ET.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://www.modelrailroadnews.net


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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:14:50 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: [PRR] Tan-Troop Sleepers - model review

Hello,

Just an update for those of you interested in troop sleepers.  I recieved
four kits (#9702 as built, Pullman Green, w/Allied full cushion trucks,
$28.95) from Cannonball Car Shops (through Jerry Britton
http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) over the weekend.  The kits look pretty
nice.  These are all new tooling and as noted include ECW Allied FC truck
kits, as well as cast metal stairwells.  These cars represent the Pullman
built troop sleepers and are appropriate from late 1943 on.  The cars are
cast in styrene, and resemble ECW kits in the gating etc.  The level of
detail is good, although not up to that of contemporary resin kits.  The
cars look relatively simple to assemble and drilling dimples are present
for grab locations.  Underbody detail is sparse, but a detailed diagram is
included for superdetailers like me.  The castings were free of warpage,
and the only down side is that the roof has a thin edge around all four
sides that the instructions repeated warn IS NOT FLASH!  One entire long
edge of this roof is used to gate the roof to the sprue, and so freeing it
without damage will be a bit of a challenge.  The walls have very nice vent
details that include see through mesh!  The kit materials note that another
manufacturer may provide interior detail kits at a later date.

Now for the bad news...in the materials in the kit is included more
information on Red Ball's PRR Troop Sleepers.  These are described as
photoengraved carsides and ends, "Athearn" metal 50' roundroof, est $79.
These, as I noted earlier will be the porthole version.  I am disappointed
that the Athearn roof will be used as I was under the opinion that it was
not particularly accurate.  In addition, I just picked up a Railworks car
for $100...so a $21 difference means I'm just as likely to go on the hunt
for more Railworks cars as I am to buy this car.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry
       _               _
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From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil
Subject: RE: [PRR] X-31f
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:26:57 -0800

Hi guys,  I talked to a PRR employee once upon a time that told me that the
X31f's were indeed used during WW2 for Jeep transport out of Baltimore (or
environs).  I guess they had a Jeep plant near there?  After WW2, with a
drop in Jeep production, Pennsy took to reassigning some to transporting
Austin-Healeys and MG's from the docks to locations from which they would be
trucked to dealerships.  They were not used for regular autos due to the
small size of the interior space designated for each vehicle.  I would also
suspect that as some were taken out of Jeep service and the loading racks
removed, they might have been used in regular service like an X31a.
Somewhere I have seen a photo of one which had been whitelined that had no
exterior indications of still having any auto loading capability.  I did a
Sunshine X31f this way and it looks ultra-cool.
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 11:02 AM
To: PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: Re: [PRR] X-31f


On 3/23/00 1:41 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu)
wrote:

> When it rains, it pours!  It seems just Sunday, I was looking through my
> brothers copy of the NEB&W (RPI's incredible model RR) books on steam era
> modeling when I noticed a photo of a PRR X-31f "turtleback" boxcar.  The
> caption noted that this car was built to carry Jeeps.  I started thinking
> about kitbashing one from a Bowser X-31.  Then, yesterday, those of you
who
> are on the Merchandise Service lsit will know that Bowser now has the
X-31f
> (http://www.bowser-trains.com/New%20HO.htm) and it is available through
> Jerry.
> 
> Was this car really designed to carry jeeps?
> Was this the exclusive use?
> 
Yesterday I received Bowser's new color car catalog. Under the photos of the
new X-31f's, it also indicates that they were used to carry jeeps during
WWII. It further indicates that some of the cars were equipped with
autoloaders.

It is doubtful that they only carried jeeps, but perhaps autos in general.
But still, they did not put "AUTOMOBILES" on the side.

I have these kits in stock at this time. Three car numbers are available.

I am also accepting advance reservations on the soon-to-be-released K-9,
K-11, and X-33 cars as well.

Be advised that my web site is down at the moment, but will return to
service no later than 4:30 p.m. ET.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://www.modelrailroadnews.net


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:49:19 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] X-31f

In a message dated 3/23/2000 12:49:09 PM Central Standard Time, 
smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:

<< Was this car really designed to carry jeeps?
 Was this the exclusive use? >>

Yes,in 1939 they were built to haul jeeps from  Kenosha, Wisconsin, an 
offline location, interestingly enough.   
After 1947 automobile boxcar traffic declined so, although they might have 
continued to haul auto parts,  probably shortly thereafter they had the 
special "jeep" racks removed so they could be used in general service.
This info is from the data sheet supplied in the Sunshine models X31F resin 
kit which I bought in 1992.

Bob Zoeller
Fox Point, Wisconsin

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From: "Sam Vastano" <svastano@hotmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] PRR T1 marker lights
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:58:59 EST

Group,

Does anyone know the color of the marker lights on a T1?

Thank you

Sam Vastano
svastano@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:32:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Cabin Car

In a message dated 3/23/00 1:04:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
burdgeb@interquest.de writes:

<< Williams is going to produce an N5c in O gauge. >>
    Which begs the question WHY - 
    The Lionel "0-27" version has been around 30 or 40 years. MTH Trains 
started making an EXCELLENT scale N-5c last year in their Rail King Line 
(plus an excellent scale N-8 in their Premier Line) AND K-Line has announced 
the N-5c, with and without train phone antennas, in their 2000 catalog. WHY 
couldn't Williams do a square window N-5 or, better yet, an N-6 ! Such is the 
way of model trains..........

Dick Ross
Cleveland

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:47:28 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Cabin car roof colors

As I surmised, the December 1974 article on painting cabin cars indicated 
roofs were same color as body (for example, freight car color)  from 1920 
through late 40's. Black appeared on roofs beginning in late 40s.  Question 
is what about the wooden cars with ashphatum (or whatever) coverings?  Was 
this coating painted with freight car color afterwards prior to the late 40s? 
Sorry for the dumb question, but is that even possible?

Bob Zoeller

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From: bobsin@nac.net
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:56:51 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Bel-Del Branch

Thanks to John Cooper and especially his Dad for making the Bel-
Del come alive again!

I spent some summers in Stockton as a very young boy in the 
early 1950s, and at that time what was left of the passenger 
service was still steam powered, and I have some dim memories of 
BIG engines at the Bridge Street crossing, making the station stop 
for the northbound commuter run in the evening.

I would only add, regarding distant switch indicators, more recent 
memory (and today no doubt) would be of color light signals, green 
for switch closed and yellow for switch open; I find that in a Penn 
Central C.T. 400, 1968, Rule 295.  I wonder if John's Dad has a 
comment on my finding (1960s?) all switches locked in the 
Lambertville yard, except the main line lead switch!  (This was 
south of the station, at the end of the small yard as I recall.)

I also recall dragging aluminum canoes across the track while 
portaging from the canal to the river (look out for the copperheads!) 
and shorting the rails and activating crossing protection!

Thanks for all the info!

John Bobsin
Basking Ridge, NJ

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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:11:44 -0500
From: Jason Jaquith <jaj165@psu.edu>
Subject: [PRR] K4 questions

I'm hoping that some of the more knowledgeable Pennsy fans out there can 
help answer some questions for a neophyte like me.

The following picture shows the wreck of a passenger train near Garland, 
PA.  This is on the P&E branch between Warren and Corry, PA.

http://www.tbscc.com/users/warren/eng-ga1.jpg

Now I'm assuming that the engine, which appears to be #6845 from the 
picture, is a K4 because of the keystone number plate and the wreck was a 
passenger train.  For more photos, check out the whole page at:

http://www.tbscc.com/users/warren/Lawson.htm

Anyway, the questions are about the lettering on the pilot.  The lettering 
on the right side of the engine looks like it is "EE".  Is this the 
designation for the loco's shop?  I can't make out what the lettering on 
the left is, can anybody explain what this is, and what it means?  Thanks.

Jason Jaquith


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:31:40 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville PA

In a message dated 03/22/2000 4:52:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< But the Reading having trackage rights doesn't explain why Penny's own
 CT1000 list the connection the Reading Co., but not to its own Williamsport
 Division!
 ------------------------------- >>
Jerry:

I am looking at a 1945 CT1000E page 147 it lists the following:

Harisburg Passenger Station  MP 103.8
Rockville,. PA (Rockville Tower)  MP 109.0  
Jct Reading Co.  MP 109.1
Storage  MP 109.7
Hecks, PA (Jct Willamsport Div)  MP 110.6

THe Williamsprt Division shows on page  178
Harrisburg Passenger Station  MP 0.0
Rockville, PA (Rockville Tower) MP 5.3
Jct Reading Co  MP 5.4
Hecks, PA Jct Philadelphia Division  MP 6.7

Where is the problem?  The Williamsport Division and Philadelphia Division 
use the same tracks from the Harrisburg passenger station to Rockville and 
Heck,  The Philadelphia Divison considers these track to be theirs while the 
Williamsport also claims them as evidenced by the 0.0 MP for the division at 
the station.  There is some variation in the distance from the Passenger 
station to Rockville -- accountable by using the southern end and nortern end 
of the station as the MP.

Ths distance is the same to the Jct with the Reading and nearly the same to 
Heck,

Rich Orr

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:53:36 EST
Subject: [PRR] Lost contact

Sorry to waste bandwidth on two lists, but my itchy finger accidentally 
deleted an offlist message from a gentleman on one of these two lists moving 
to Oshkosh from Chicago.  Will he please accept my apology and resend his 
message offlist with his name and email address.

Bob (tying down that finger now) Zoeller

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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:52:23 -0500
From: Park Varieties <parkvarieties@provide.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] X-31f

There was also a group of these cars assigned to the Jeep plant in Toledo, OH
during WWII so I think it is safe to assume that they found their way into
freight trains  all over the Pennsy system.

Frank Brua

Bobspf@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/23/2000 12:49:09 PM Central Standard Time,
> smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:
>
> << Was this car really designed to carry jeeps?
>  Was this the exclusive use? >>
>
> Yes,in 1939 they were built to haul jeeps from  Kenosha, Wisconsin, an
> offline location, interestingly enough.
> After 1947 automobile boxcar traffic declined so, although they might have
> continued to haul auto parts,  probably shortly thereafter they had the
> special "jeep" racks removed so they could be used in general service.
> This info is from the data sheet supplied in the Sunshine models X31F resin
> kit which I bought in 1992.
>
> Bob Zoeller
> Fox Point, Wisconsin
>
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:05:23 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Existing Steel served by PRR/Conrail/NS

Dave:

Maybe it is Wellsburg.  I thought the sign said Wellsboro when I was there 
two weeks ago.  Any way the place I am refering to is near Follansebee, WV 
across the river from Steubenville.

Rich

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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:35:15 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Antennas

Frank, list,

The C-liner antennas were very short vertically.  I believe the shortest
antenna set that Bowser (Cal Scale) sells is for the freight sharks
(RF-15/16).  This looks to be about the same height as the C liner antenna
set.  Cal Scale's part number for the freight shark antenna set is 190-409.

There are 11 antenna stanchions on each side of the C-liner.  However, there
are only 9 stanchions per side on each freight shark.  If you go this route,
you'll have to purchase 2 packages of stanchions per unit.  Actually, if
you're doing more than one engine, this wouldn't be so bad; you'd only need
4 sets to do 3 units.

In the dark old days before the beautiful Cal Scale antenna sets, some
modellers used Athearn handrail stanchions, cut to length, for antenna
sets.  You might also consider this route.

Doug

Park Varieties wrote:

> Has anybody given any thought as to which Cal-Scale  antenna set would
> best suit the upcoming Life-Like C-Liner?  Lee English at Bowser has
> advised me that he
> has no plans to do a C-Liner set and could not offer any suggestions.
>
> Frank Brua
>
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:15:12 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Another CT1000 Observation

Jerry:

The reference to the WilkesBaree Division at MP o.o of the Milroy branch does 
not mean the Milroy branch is part of the WB Division but that it has a jct 
with the WB Junction.  On page 200 is the Lewistown branch running from 
Sunbury to a JCt with the Middle division 1.5 miles from the Middle Div. 
mainline.  This jucntion is in Lewistown.  The Milroy branck is part of the 
Middle Division.  The Lewiston Branch described above is part of the WB 
Division.

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:20:22 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] X-31f

In a message dated 03/23/2000 1:49:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:

<< Was this car really designed to carry jeeps?
 Was this the exclusive use?
  >>
Bruce,

The car was indeed designed to carry jeeps.  The additional height allow the 
jeeps to be shipped standing on end and thus get more in a car.  Following 
WWII, the internal autoracks were slowly removed from the cars and they were 
assigned to general merchandise service.  Of the 690 cars nearly all of them 
lasted into PC.

Rich Orr

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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:26:36 EST
Subject: [PRR] O Scale Victorian model houses

Pennsy Fans,

Does anybody know of a model kit for a standalone (not a row house) O scale 
Victorian?  My wife wants to build and put one on the layout.

This wouldn't work in Weirton (it's too young), but it might fly for 
Steubenville, OH or Holiday's Cove, WV.

Thanks!

George
Modeling the PRR in Weirton-Steubenville between 1948-1957

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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 questions
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:45:44 -0500

I'm pretty sure that's an M1 on its side there, not a K4s. The lettering is
"EE" & "HBG". I forget what EE stands for (East Enola pool, maybe? Help me
out, guys) and HBG signifies Harrisburg which is where the engine was
assigned for maintenance. This looks like one of the rare (by
1947)passenger-assigned M1's, shame to see her down & out!


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From: "Rick Schoch" <rickstug@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Bel-Del Branch
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:01:08 -0500

What a tremendous post on the Bel-Del! One thing this underscores is the
need to get more recollections like these on tape or paper before they are
lost forever. Many of the men & women who worked in the steam days are in
their golden years (Hell, some of us "second-generation era "guys are
getting close ;)). Thank God most of the T&HS's know this and are working on
it and I doff my hat to them. Maybe some day I'll be able to help, but for
now it's great to take a break and relax by reading posts like this. Thanks
Mr. Cooper (and son)!


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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 questions
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:59:49 -0500

Howdy List:
Rick is correct!  One big give away that this engine is not a K4s (or any
other K class) is the large air tank above the cast passenger pilot.  The
next one would be the lack of dual poppet valves on top of the fire box.
The locomotive is M1 6845 built by Baldwin.  The best way is by the number,
the Pennsy is not know for putting steam locomotives in numerical sequence,
but all the M1, M1a's where in the 6699 to 6999 number series.

> The following picture shows the wreck of a passenger train near Garland,
> PA.  This is on the P&E branch between Warren and Corry, PA.
>
> http://www.tbscc.com/users/warren/eng-ga1.jpg
>
> Now I'm assuming that the engine, which appears to be #6845 from the
> picture, is a K4 because of the keystone number plate and the wreck was a
> passenger train.  For more photos, check out the whole page at:
>
> http://www.tbscc.com/users/warren/Lawson.htm
>
> Anyway, the questions are about the lettering on the pilot.  The lettering
> on the right side of the engine looks like it is "EE".  Is this the
> designation for the loco's shop?  I can't make out what the lettering on
> the left is, can anybody explain what this is, and what it means?  Thanks.
>
> Jason Jaquith



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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:55:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 questions

 
Jason, Rick, List 

            One look at the photo shows the loco
is an M1 class. But we all know that now. Rich you said the symbols
shown are EE (engineers side) and HBG (firemans side)? If this is
correct the Loco was assigned to the Eastern Pennsylvania Division
(Phila Div) and assigned to the Harrisburg Enginehouse for monthly
inspections. The wreck happened in Garland Pa. I am not sure where that
is. I suppose it has to be in the eastern part of the state. 
          There was an excellent article on Pilot
Beam Symbols in 2 past issues of the Keystone. Vo 5 #1 and Vol. 6 #2. It
explains the whole purpose of the markings and list all known symbols
used....Gary 




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's X48 Boxcar - Doors and End Color / GAEX "No Damage
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:05:59 -1000

Walt, Rick, Rich, et. al.,

A few other notes on Class X48 and PS-1's in general:

Depending on the level of detail and amount of work you want to put into the
car, your Walthers PS-1 is a "good news, bad news" model:

Good news:  The printing job on the car is excellent and matches the SK1a
lettering on the car series accurately as shown in the photo on page 25 in
Brady McGuire's article on PRR boxcar lettering schemes in the Summer 1988
Keystone.  (By the way, get a copy of this article if you can.  It's a great
resource loaded with prototype pictures and lettering diagrams.)  The SK1a
(Shadow Keystone with "Calendar" style reporting mark numerals) was a
short-lived scheme (2/54 - 6/54), but was not limited to new cars and was
applied to a number of classes repainted during this time, as seen on PRR
569356 (Class X29), pictured on  the back cover of the same issue.

Bad news:
(1)  The red used on the car is Scalecoat II Tuscan Red and not freight car
color.  However, the black ends are correct.  Rich's observation that they
were a "trademark" of P-S and is confirmed in many builders photos of both
40 and 50 ft PS-1s.  Check out Hundman's PS-1 article (early Mainline
Modeler - I don't remember which issue, but it was reprinted in his series
of Freight Car books and a sheet containing many of the builders photos used
in the article were included in McKean's original run of PS-1s) or the
continuing run of PS-1 photos printed in magazines that Schleicher is/was
the editor.  The photo of PRR 47001 in PRR Color Guide Volume 2 bears out
the fact that the black ends were repainted freight car color.
(2)  The prototype had a cushion underframe.  Jim Six used a cut-down
Details West Evans cushion underframe in his article in the June 1990 issue
of Model Railroading.  I have never seen a photo of the 40 ft P-S cushion
underframe, so I don't know how close a match this is, but it will give you
the extended coupler pockets.  Be careful when using this article as a
reference - it contains some great ideas on how to model this class of cars
(he used a McKean kit) but lacks prototype photos.
(3)  The Walthers car is essentially the old AHM 40 ft PS-1 and suffers from
the same shortcomings of shake the box kits:  overscale roofwalk and brake
wheel, heavy door tracks and "claws" on door, and heavy stirrups.
Additionally, the end cross section seems a little off and has rivets on
each rib that don't belong.  The Superior doors supplied with the model have
the tack boards molded in the wrong location - Jim Six used some extra Front
Range doors he had on hand and added the tack boards.

If you want to go with a "tan dot" model, I'd replace the roofwalk and
brakewheel, install a cushion underframe, cut off the claws of the door (or
replace the door), carefully thin down or fabricate new stirrups, remove the
extra rivets on the ends, touch everything up with the matching color of
Scalecoat II, then mask off the ends and lightly overspray the body with
your favorite shade of Freight Car Color to lighten the model without
obliterating the lettering, then finish weathering the car.

If you want a more detailed model, I'd start from something other than the
Walthers/Model Power/AHM car and go from there.  Use a Middle Division
Boxcar decal set for the SK1a scheme if you can get one.

GAEX "Damage Free" Boxcars:
Green is definitely out for Pennsy 40 ft boxcars and was limited to only a
small class of specially equipped 50 ft cars leased to PRR by General
American Evans Corporation.  I'd sell them off on eBay.

Hope this info helps.

Ben Hom



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From: "Bill Daniels" <billd@gci-net.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] O Scale Victorian model houses
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 05:43:57 -0700

Design Preservation does a small resin one...should be about $60.00.

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ
-----Original Message-----
From: GPandelios@aol.com <GPandelios@aol.com>
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 8:29 PM
Subject: [PRR] O Scale Victorian model houses


>Pennsy Fans,
>
>Does anybody know of a model kit for a standalone (not a row house) O scale
>Victorian?  My wife wants to build and put one on the layout.
>



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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Roadbed
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:35:38 -0500

Last month's Model Railroader had a fairly comprehensive article about
superelevation on mainline tracks.

Lew Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: John F. Ryan, Jr. <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
To: PRR Layout <prr-er@dsop.com>
Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 10:14 PM
Subject: [PRR-ER] Roadbed


>How is superelevation handled in 4-track areas.
>
>John Ryan
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"PRR-ER" is a private mailing list for the discussion of the planning,
>construction, and operation of Jerry Britton's "PRR Eastern Region" in
>HO scale. The layout's web site is at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/.
>To unsubscribe from this list, or for other list help, please contact
>jerry@pennsyrr.com. Thank you for your participation!
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


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From: "Bob Rothrock" <bobr@tridelta.com>
Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/24/00
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:04:30 -0500

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: O Scale Victorian model houses
From: <GPandelios@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:26:36 EST

Pennsy Fans,

Does anybody know of a model kit for a standalone (not a row house) O scale
Victorian?  My wife wants to build and put one on the layout.

This wouldn't work in Weirton (it's too young), but it might fly for
Steubenville, OH or Holiday's Cove, WV.

Thanks!

George
Modeling the PRR in Weirton-Steubenville between 1948-1957

----------------------------------------------------------------------

George:

  Design Preservation Models makes a very nice resin kit of a Victorian
style home in O scale. P&D Hobby Shop (Fraser, MI) had a bunch of them at
the O scale national in Atlanta last year at significant discount from list
price. Another place to check out is Valley Model Trains,
http://www.idsi.net/~vmt/oscale.html .

Bob Rothrock


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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] O Scale Victorian model houses
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:37:33 -0500


Bill and List,

I think Micro-Mark might have one.

Chris

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Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:20:27 -0500
From: Jason Jaquith <jaj165@psu.edu>
Subject: [PRR] mistake on the K4 call, and more

   I knew that there was a chance that the loco could have been an M1 as 
well with the keystone number plate.  Thanks for the correction and the 
info on the lettering on the pilot.  BTW, Garland is in Northwestern PA, 
about 50 miles from Erie on the Philadelphia & Erie branch.

Jason


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:14:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] mistake on the K4 call, and more

Jason, list,

    I kinda figured the location of Garland was up in the northwest part
of Pa.because of the wod "Warren" in the url address. As you say Jason,
those reporting marks on the pilot make no sense then. Unless the M1 was
newly assigned to the Erie Enginehouse and not yet restenciled. For an
engine to be assigned to the Erie Enginehouse it would have to carry any
of  the following symbols.  CN, REN EE. This is the symbol for a loco
working out of the Renovo Div and assigned to the Erie Enginehouse. CL
E&A EE. This is for a loco on the Lake Div and assigned to the Erie
Enginehouse. Looking in the Keystone Article on these pilot symbols,
these are the only two listed for the Erie Enginehouse. I looked at the
M1 wreck photo again to see if I can clearly make out the pilot
stenciling. It is very difficult. It appears however it does say EE HGB
which means the loco was assigned to the Eastern Pa.Div and the
Harrisburg  Enginehouse. If this is true then the loco may have wrecked
on its move to it's new division assignment or like I said earlier,
never had the restencilling done before the wreck occured. Any more
input?. I am still scratching my head...Gary




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http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
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Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:40:08 -0500
Subject: [PRR] List Archives Improvement
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

With an update to my web server software comes a new enhancement...

The database server now acts as a mail client...which I have subscribed to
each of the lists. Every five minutes it logs in and checks for list mail.
If present, it immediately adds it to the E-mail Search Archives.

This means that new posts are added to the archives within minutes of their
original posts, instead of the 24+ hour delay that has been the norm (when
it imported digests that I manually fed to it).

Yeah for small miracles!  8-)

P.S. For the newbies on the lists that are saying "What?" All of the lists
are archived in an extensive searchable archive:

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://www.modelrailroadnews.net


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Subject: [PRR] Lines West Train Symbols
From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:42:00 -0600


 These all come from the Freight Train Symbol Book revised 12-15-55.  I did
only the trains that originated/terminated west of Pittsburgh:

BEC-1          "The Excelsior      Buffalo         Canton
BEC-2          "The Salesman"      Crestline       Buffalo
CAC-1                              Cleveland       Crestline
CC--1                              Canton          Columbus
CC-2                          East St. Louis       Canton
CE-2      "The Eagle"              Cleveland       Enola
CE-4                          Cleveland       Conway
CE-5                          Conway          Cleveland
CFW-5                         Camden (Pavonia)     Fort Wayne
CG-2      "The Reliable"      Chicago (59th St.)   Greenville
CG-8      "The Ace"           Chicago (59th St.)   Greenville
CI-3                          Cincinnati           Indianapolis
CIN-1          "The Rocket"        Enola                Cincinnati
CIN-2          "The Captivator"          Cincinnati          Enola
CIN-3                              Pitcairn        Cincinnati
CNY-2                         Chicago (????)  Greenville
CO-2                          Chicago (59th St.)   Cincinnati
CO-3      "The Challenger"         Cincinnati           Logansport
CP-6                          Chicago (59th St.)   Fort Wayne
CS-6                          Chicago (55th St.)   Conway
CS-8                          Chicago (55th St.)   Greenville
ED-2      "The Gas Wagon"          Detroit         Conway
ED-3                          Enola                Detroit
ED-4                          Detroit         Camden
EP-2                          Erie            Conway
FC-2      "The Forest City"        Cincinnati           Cleveland
FW-8      "Man o' War"        Chicago (55th St.)   Harismus Cove
FW-18                              Crestline       Cleveland
FW-88                              Logansport           Ft. Wayne
GR-7                          Richmond        Mackinaw City
GRE-2          "Midwest Merchant"  Chicago (55th St.)   Greenville
IL-1                          Jeffersonville       Chicago (59th St.)
IL-2      "The Derby"              Chicago (59th St.)   Louisville
LC-11                              Jeffersonville       Indianapolis
(Hawthorne Yd.)
LCL-1                              Harismus Cove   Chicago (55th St.)
LCL-2                              Chicago (22nd St.)   Harismus Cove
LCL-3                              Harismus Cove   East St. Louis
LM-3                          Canton          Cincinnati
LM-4      "Spark Plug"             Cincinnati           Columbus
LM-5                          Columbus        Cincinnati
NF-6                          Chicago (55th St.)   Harismus Cove
NL-5                          Enola                Crestline
NW-82                         Chicago (59th St.)   Enola
NW-85     "The Big Smoke"          Columbus        Logansport
NW-88                         Chicago (59th St.)   Enola
PD-1                          Pitcairn        Toledo
PF-1                          Enola                Logansport
PF-3                          Conway          Crestline
PH-7                          Pitcairn        Columbus
PH-9                          Columbus        Indianapolis
PH-10          "The Greyhound"           East St. Louis           Pitcairn
PH-11                              Pitcairn        East. St. Louis
PWC-1          "Steeler"           Pitcairn        Chicago(59th St.)
PWS-3          "The Tom Kat"       Conway          East St. Louis
PY-1                          Conway          Niles
PY-2                          Niles                Conway
PYC-1          "Steeler"           Conway          Chicago (55th St)
SC-1                          New Castle           Canton
SC-2                          Canton          New Castle
ST-2                          Toledo          Canton
ST-3                          Canton          Toledo
ST-4                          Toledo          Conway
SW-1      "The SouthWesterner"     Enola                East St. Louis
SW-2                          Indianapolis         Enola
SW-8      "The Premier"       East St. Louis       Greeenville
SW-30                              Peoria               Columbus
SWC-1          "The West Coast Comet"    Greenville          East St. Louis
TC-12          "The Dixie"               Toledo         Columbus
TC-16                              Toledo          Columbus
TM-2                          Canton          Mingo Jct.
TM-1                          Mingo Jct.           Canton
TT-1                          Harismus Cove   Chicago (55th St.)
TT-2                          Chicago (55th St.)   Harismus Cove
VC-1      "The Meteor              Enola                Cleveland
VL-2      "Uncle Sam"              East St. Louis       Greeenville
VL-6      "The Trail Blazer"       Columbus        Pittsburgh Produce
Terminal
VL-9                          Enola                Columbus
WC-1      "The West Coast Clipper" Harismus Cove   Chicago (55th St.)




I would really like to find out the origins of some of the name trains.
Some of them are easy, others like 'The Big Smoke' are not.

Randy Williamson .



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Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:24:41 -0600
From: John Sheets <johnit@interaccess.com>
Subject: [PRR] Re: Bel-Del

> "Michael Allen" <ptrmgtsvc@juno.com>
> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:42:47 -0500
> 
> John,
> 
> 1. Can you give me a cross road or a landmark for the signal?
> 
> 2. Which James River plant?
>         There is the one still active at Milford served by the Del-Bel, an
> abandonded one  at Reiglesville which was served by the Bel-Del and what
> is now Warren Paper[?]  in Pohatcong which was served by the LV  
> 
> MEA

Michael

No I cannot exactly pinpont the signal, but it is clearly visible across the
river from  New Jersey Hwy 29, somewhere across from Titusville.  Again it was
lying on the ground, between the riverbank and the abandoned roadbed. 
Interesting since it was/is there for a long time and all the grass around it is
kept mowed.  Soorry I live west of Chicago. o/t=wise I'd drive over 

The James River Plant was at Milford, that was end of track at that time (1991?)

John

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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Roadbed
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:35:05 -0500

Dear Jerry and Bruce:

I use foam core board for roadbed sometimes.  It comes in varius thicknesses
(you can match the cork easily) and can be tapered to form ramps.  I cut the
"bottom" off and put paper shims where needed to ramp up and down.  You can
cut any shape you want and apply any taper to the shoulder as needed.  It
makes a good transition form mainline to branch and to yards by ramping down
and decreasing the angle of the shoulder profile as you go.

After I lay my cork roadbed, I coat the whole thing with spackle, filling
all voids ( I don't like the gaps between cork pieces and at turnouts) and
then sand for a good flat surface with no dips or bumps.  Large depressions
and verticle changes can be easily filled in or shaped with spackle.
Spackle aslo can be formed into special roadbed shoulder profiles and
besides, its fun to play with that stuff!  :-)

Lew



-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
To: prr-er@dsop.com <prr-er@dsop.com>
Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR-ER] Roadbed


>>On 3/23/00 10:37 PM, Larry Reynolds at (reynoldl@gte.net) wrote:
>>
>>> With all due respect to two very knowledgeable men.  Do you realize that
3"
>>> translates to .035 in HO scale? <BG>  I don't think you'll be able to
>>>tell the
>>> difference.  If you want the effect, why not exaggerate the height a
>>>little so
>>> the effect can be appreciated.
>
>I warned y'all that I'm a dyed in the wool rivet counter <G>!!!  3" is a
>measurable if barely noticable difference...
>
>>Duh!  I've been thinking about this overnight. Unfortunately, an extra
layer
>>of N scale cork will be too thick (I reckon). However, cork would have
been
>>great since you can curve it. Otherwise I'll need to trim (some kind of
>>material) to fit. Posterboard? I think the effect would be worth it.
>
>or 0.04 styrene shims...you can purchase styrene is very large sheets if
>you go to sign supply companies etc (there should be a discussion on this
>in the onelist LDSIG archives Jerry).  I think that this would give a
>noticable increase in height when viewed from the side.  'Course, I'm all 2
>track, so I'm not going to bother.
>
>As for superelevating 4 track curves...raise the center two tracks 3", and
>then superelevate the outer rail on each track...I used to have a great
>example of this at the Claymont DE station as it is built on a curved
>section of track.  BTW, Precision Scale sells very nice, already
>superelevated HO flex track!
>
>Happy Rails
>Bruce
>
>
>Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
>Scott-Ritchey Research Center
>334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
>http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
>
>There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave
Barry
>       _               _
>      / \             / \
>  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
> |- _______/ O     \_______ -| |_  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  _|
> | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |
> |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_|
> | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O | |=| 0==0                      0==0 |=|
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"PRR-ER" is a private mailing list for the discussion of the planning,
>construction, and operation of Jerry Britton's "PRR Eastern Region" in
>HO scale. The layout's web site is at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/.
>To unsubscribe from this list, or for other list help, please contact
>jerry@pennsyrr.com. Thank you for your participation!
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:07:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PRR] Tender Steps?

Modelers,

     I need a pair of rear tender steps (actually just the firemans
side) for a PFM HO Scale K4 Tender that I am rebuildng. There was one
missing when I purchased this. I thought Cal-Scale or Bowser (Cary)
would have made this part available. I couldn't find any listed. A few
years ago there was a company called Keystone Replica's that made brass
detail parts for PRR Tenders. I know they made dog houses, antenna, and
complete tenders. Did they make any rear steps for sepearte sale? If so
does anyone have a package I can purchase? Any other sources I could
check for these steps? Thanks all....Gary 




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:39:16 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender Steps?

Gary, list,

Bowser's new T1 tender has steps cast separately in a non-zinc metal (it's
probably pewter).  These look close to me (any listmembers with another
opinion, by all means, sound off).  They might be a bit tall; the worst case
is you'd have to cut a bit off of the top and make a new top out of styrene.

The Bowser part numbers are 70360 for the right side step and 70361 for the
left side step.

Doug

Gary Mittner wrote:

> Modelers,
>
>      I need a pair of rear tender steps (actually just the firemans
> side) for a PFM HO Scale K4 Tender that I am rebuildng. There was one
> missing when I purchased this. I thought Cal-Scale or Bowser (Cary)
> would have made this part available. I couldn't find any listed. A few
> years ago there was a company called Keystone Replica's that made brass
> detail parts for PRR Tenders. I know they made dog houses, antenna, and
> complete tenders. Did they make any rear steps for sepearte sale? If so
> does anyone have a package I can purchase? Any other sources I could
> check for these steps? Thanks all....Gary
>
> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Middle Division
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 21:36:01 -0000

Is the PRR modeling company 'Middle Division' still in business?

If so will someone please forward their current address?

Thanx.

Al

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From: keninwillshire@webtv.net (Ken Miller)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 21:52:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PRR] Depressed center flats.

I`m looking for photos of 6 wheel depressed center flat cars for a
S-scale project. Any help would be appreciated. Thank`s Ken 


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From: DPoole17@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:32:40 EST
Subject: [PRR] NEED HELP

I have a bad E-Mail address for BOB HORNSBY.  He is connected with the 
BROTHERHOOD OF LIVE STEAMERS and recently moved to TEXAS.  Can you get me a 
good E-Mail address for him?  THANKS in advance!!

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From: WAyersRR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 01:33:45 EST
Subject: Re:  [PRR] Crestline Questions

My appologies to you who responded to my questions. While downloading my mail 
today, AOL, in all its digital splendor, unexpectedly quit and I lost most of 
it. Would you be kind enough to re-post your responses? I thank you kindly.

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From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] C-Liner Antennas
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:21:02 -1000

Frank, Doug, list,

Fairbanks-Morse cab units had very tall carbodies as a result of the
opposed-piston design of the F-M prime mover, so both Erie-builts and
C-Liners both had very short antenna stanchions.  A close look at various
PRR C-Liner pictures in David Sweetland's C-Liners - Fairbanks-Morse's
Consolidation Line of Locomotives shows that the antenna stanchions on this
class have a unique cross-section at the top of the stanchion which will
take some fine work with a good set of needle nose pliers to reproduce.  I'd
get a couple sets of Freight Shark antennas and use them - you'd have to get
two anyway because one of the Shark stanchions on either side is shorter
than the rest, so you really get 16 stanchions per package for this project
instead of 18.  (Besides, having a few extra isn't a bad thing if you break
a couple trying to bend them!)  Another route to go would be to use Utah
Pacific's 755-91 (the old Alco Models part in brass), but the top cross
section of these stanchions is too boxy compared to the ones on the
prototype.

Of course, Life-Like is introducing this model only because I've assembled
enough parts to do an A-B-A set using the old AHM models.  :(

Ben Hom


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Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:46:49 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/24/00 4:36 PM, Alan Buchan at (abbuchan@earthlink.net) wrote:

> Is the PRR modeling company 'Middle Division' still in business?
> 
> If so will someone please forward their current address?
> 
They are, but not real involved right now.

I saw Nick Semen at the Harrisburg Show earlier in the month. He indicated
he had been out of town for all but two weeks of the past year! He is now
set to re-establish himself with his company. I am sure he will be at the
PRRT&HS show. 

He tells me he has new decal sets ready that cover EVERY passenger car name
(without splicing) in Dulux Gold!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:55:04 -0600
From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>
Subject: [PRR] Opinions wanted, fascia color

Gentlemen:

I am finally going to paint the fascia on my layout.  I've seen Hunter
Green and various shades of brown/tan, and these all look good.  Being a
"Serious Pennsy Lover", (SPL) <G>, I'm considering Tuscan.  However, I'm
concerned that Tuscan may be distracting.

Any thoughts or opinions?

Thanks,

Larry


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From: "jbreon" <jbreon@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Opinions wanted, fascia color
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:19:00 -0500

Larry,
     I've been working on the same problem. I built a small module (actually
the Woodland Scenics scenery test kit) and painted all of the sides flat
black. It looks pretty good and doesn't detract from the finished modeling
"above ground". George Sellios' F&SM also has black fascia, I believe, and
looks good to me. I would use the same color on the overhead lighting
valence as well. I might add that it has occurred to me to tint the black
with a little green as in DGLE!
Jerry Breon




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From: BPX29@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:06:26 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Opinions wanted, fascia color

Larry,
I don't know if you're on the Layout Design email list, but they've had 
extensive discussions/debates on this subject. You could consider going to 
onelist and signing up long enough to search their archives for their input.
    I like the idea of using Hunter or some other darker green in highly 
forrested areas, perhaps as a way to add to the effect of the scenery 
surronding the railroad. The idea of using earth tones around more urbanized 
areas seems appealing too, but when you think about it, wouldn't tuscan go 
nice with a concentration of brick buildings and brick station platforms? 
Just a thought.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: "Brady Burdge" <burdgeb@interquest.de>
Subject: [PRR] Divisions
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:51:31 +0100

Can anyone tell me the boundries or area of each PRR division?

Brady
http://ogauge.homestead.com/




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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:51:43 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Opinions wanted, fascia color

In a message dated 3/25/00 6:04:15 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
reynoldl@gte.net writes:

<< I am finally going to paint the fascia on my layout.  I've seen Hunter
 Green and various shades of brown/tan, and these all look good.  Being a
 "Serious Pennsy Lover", (SPL) <G>, I'm considering Tuscan.  However, I'm
 concerned that Tuscan may be distracting.
 
 Any thoughts or opinions?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Larry >>

Larry,

Have you considered black as a facia color.  This would help to make the 
layout really stand out.  It also offers a good background for station names, 
and/or track diagrams in a nice contrasting color like Depot buff.

Stuart Thayer

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From: SNY114@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:06:51 EST
Subject: [PRR] Fascia colors

I used a tan/light brown color on my last layout, and I didn't like it. I 
think the next time I'm going to use a dark green. It will complement the 
scenery, I think, without diverting attention from the real show.

I used the station sign-maker at Keystone Crossings to make and print signs 
for the stations and towers that will be on my next pike, and will mount 
those on the fascia to tell visitors "where they are". I think the signs made 
by the sign-maker are just the right size. I plan to make signs of styrene, 
and use pounce wheels to transfer the patterns to the styrene for cutting. 
Then the sign will have a raised edge and lettering. Painted red and gold on 
a dark green fascia; sounds pretty classy looking to me.  We'll see. I may do 
a mock up of it first. But that's one man's opinion on the subject.

Jim Anderson
Thorndale, PA
sny114@aol.com
PRRT&HS 3995
Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925

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From: SNY114@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:09:00 EST
Subject: [PRR] Divisions

The answer to the question is "it depends": on the time era, mainly. The PRR 
system was arranged and re-arranged in different divisions at different 
points in time. So when are you interested in?

Jim Anderson
Thorndale, PA
sny114@aol.com
PRRT&HS 3995
Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925

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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Lines West Train Symbols
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:54:36 -0000

Randy and list,

Perhaps it wasn't shown in the 12/55 symbol book, however, you should add:

EP-1 Conway - Erie, it was the flip side of EP-2 which was listed.

Al

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From: "rholden" <rholden@superpa.net>
Subject: [PRR] Speed on Horseshoe Curve
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:15:09 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF9664.8781F400
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello! Listmembers...Have been spending a lot of hours working on my F-3 =
(Life-Like) project...and, at the same time watching a lot of Penn =
Valley, etc videos at the same time.( My wife is at work!!!)

Obviously, since the time of the PRR running up the curve was decade =
after decade...which leads to my question. When did the speeds up and =
down the curve begin to slow down, and was it a result of simply heavier =
trains? The last time I went to the Curve...NS was running up and down =
the courve slower than many of the PRR trains in the 40's, for example. =
Did the heavier trains tear up the outer rail? I tell you, the PRR ran =
fast up the curve in the 30's and 40's!! Obviously, there were many coal =
drags and ore trains in the PRR days...and I'm know they didn't =
fly...but I know a fellow list member will know the answer to this =
question? Regards, Bob =20

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF9664.8781F400
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hello! Listmembers...Have been spending a lot of =
hours working=20
on my F-3 (Life-Like) project...and, at the same time watching a lot of =
Penn=20
Valley, etc videos at the same time.( My wife is at =
work!!!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Obviously, since the time of the PRR running up the =
curve was=20
decade after decade...which leads to my question. When did the speeds up =
and=20
down the curve begin to slow down, and was it a result of simply heavier =
trains?=20
The last time I went to the Curve...NS was running up and down the =
courve slower=20
than many of the PRR trains in the 40's, for example. Did the heavier =
trains=20
tear up the outer rail? I tell you, the PRR ran fast up the curve in the =
30's=20
and 40's!! Obviously, there were many coal drags and ore trains in the =
PRR=20
days...and I'm know they didn't fly...but I know a fellow list member =
will know=20
the answer to this question? Regards, Bob&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF9664.8781F400--


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Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:26:06 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Station sign-maker
From: "Eugene Nowlan" <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>

>From: SNY114@aol.com
>Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 12:06 PM
> Jim Anderson wrote:
> I used a tan/light brown color on my last layout, and I didn't like it. I
> think the next time I'm going to use a dark green. It will complement the
> scenery, I think, without diverting attention from the real show.
>
> I used the station sign-maker at Keystone Crossings to make and print signs
> for the stations and towers that will be on my next pike, and will mount


Jim

What is the URL for the Station Sign-maker that you refer to.  I couldn't
find anything on Jerry's or prr.railfan site.


Eugene Nowlan
Corning, NY USA
<ENowlan@stny.rr.com>


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From: "Rob Schoenberg" <robs@actel.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Station sign-maker
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:49:27 -0500

Hi,

The PRR station sign maker is on my page (prr.railfan.net)
The URL of the sign maker is http://prr.railfan.net/makesign.html

Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Nowlan <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 2:28 PM
Subject: [PRR] Station sign-maker


>>From: SNY114@aol.com
>>Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 12:06 PM
>> Jim Anderson wrote:
>> I used a tan/light brown color on my last layout, and I didn't like it. I
>> think the next time I'm going to use a dark green. It will complement the
>> scenery, I think, without diverting attention from the real show.
>>
>> I used the station sign-maker at Keystone Crossings to make and print
signs
>> for the stations and towers that will be on my next pike, and will mount
>
>
>Jim
>
>What is the URL for the Station Sign-maker that you refer to.  I couldn't
>find anything on Jerry's or prr.railfan site.
>
>
>Eugene Nowlan
>Corning, NY USA
><ENowlan@stny.rr.com>
>
>
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>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>


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Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 16:06:03 -0600
From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Station sign-maker

Eugene:

You'll find the sign maker on Rob's page. http://prr.railfan.net/  This is what I
made the
Spruce Creek and Tyrone signs from on my layout.  Did you see them when you were
here last week?  They really turned out nice.  I have a bunch more that will go
on as soon as the fascia is painted.

Larry

Eugene Nowlan wrote:

> >From: SNY114@aol.com
> >Date: Sat, Mar 25, 2000, 12:06 PM
> > Jim Anderson wrote:
> > I used a tan/light brown color on my last layout, and I didn't like it. I
> > think the next time I'm going to use a dark green. It will complement the
> > scenery, I think, without diverting attention from the real show.
> >
> > I used the station sign-maker at Keystone Crossings to make and print signs
> > for the stations and towers that will be on my next pike, and will mount
>
> Jim
>
> What is the URL for the Station Sign-maker that you refer to.  I couldn't
> find anything on Jerry's or prr.railfan site.
>
> Eugene Nowlan
> Corning, NY USA
> <ENowlan@stny.rr.com>
>
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> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".




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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 20:38:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [PRR] PRR Regions, Divisions +

Brady, List,

    The past day or so there has been a few postings concerning Regions
and Divisions. I have posted several myself and Brady asks what the
boundries were. It is not a simple question to answer. Things changed
throughout the years. I may answer part of your questions with what I
have to share with you all now. This info comes from the several
Keystone articles of the past. It pertains to Locomotive assignments but
once you start reading, you will get the fill of where the Regions and
Divisions were. It won't answer all your qestions but it will help get
the novice to more understand how the Pennsy worked.  I learned more
myself while typing the info today. Anyway, it is all included in the
url posted below. ......Gary


http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4s
     
.
.
.
.
.




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY  and
http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA


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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 20:56:02 EST
Subject: [PRR] Wellsburg & Follansbee WV

Rich wrote:

>Maybe it is Wellsburg.  I thought the sign said Wellsboro when I was there 
>two weeks ago.  Any way the place I am refering to is near Follansebee, WV 
>across the river from Steubenville.
>
>Rich

It's definitely Wellsburg.  I'm originally from Weirton (north of 
Follansbee).  Incidentally, thanks to the coke ovens at Follansbee and the 
other steel mills directly across the Ohio at that point, that area just 
north of Follansbee was regarded as the most polluted place on Earth 
(regarding particulate matter anyway).

George

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From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wellsburg & Follansbee WV
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:38:13 -0500

Wellsburg is definitely near Follansbee and Wierton.  I don't know how this
thread started.  There is considerable railfan interest there, and the steel
mills in the area are a wonderful reminder of how great the PRR operations
once were.

NS still receives quite a bit of business thanks to Wierton Steel, with some
going to connecting lines as well.  Ore comes down from Lake Erie along the
Cleveland Line and the paralleling Ohio River, and much coal and coke arrive
there by rail as well.  Slab trains also bring in import steel.  The mills
yell and scream about import steel, yet they continue to import same.
Fortunately, they are also producing some of their own.  Somehow that's all
caught up in politics and economics that few could even begin to understand.

"Polluted" or not, it's one of the few places left where the one-time
industrial might of the United States is still in evidence.  By contrast,
Pittsburgh now looks like a barren wasteland, although lately they are given
to replacing the steel mills with Lowe's stores and other such things.  It's
truly depressing when one is aware of what was once there.

I, for one, will always cherish my memories of the great mills; the trains
that served them; and the jobs they provided both steel workers and
railroaders.

They are a significant part of the reason the Pennsy WAS "The Standard
Railroad of the World."




-----Original Message-----
From: GPandelios@aol.com <GPandelios@aol.com>
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 9:31 PM
Subject: [PRR] Wellsburg & Follansbee WV


>Rich wrote:
>
>>Maybe it is Wellsburg.  I thought the sign said Wellsboro when I was there
>>two weeks ago.  Any way the place I am refering to is near Follansebee, WV
>>across the river from Steubenville.
>>
>>Rich
>
>It's definitely Wellsburg.  I'm originally from Weirton (north of
>Follansbee).  Incidentally, thanks to the coke ovens at Follansbee and the
>other steel mills directly across the Ohio at that point, that area just
>north of Follansbee was regarded as the most polluted place on Earth
>(regarding particulate matter anyway).
>
>George
>
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From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Fascia colors
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:02:03 -1000

We use a "Rutland" green on the fascia boards on the NEB&W.  It really does
a great job of providing a finished look to the layout without taking away
from the scenery, and black on yellow information placards look good against
it.  For a PRR home layout, a shade closer to DGLE with tuscan and gold
signs is more appropriate (and would work just as well).  :)

Ben Hom


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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:13:13 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] TWO Rockvilles!!!

In a message dated 00-03-22 21:55:31 EST, GPandelios@aol.com writes:

<< there were 2 Rockville 
 towers (page 45).
 
 Does that confuse things more? ;^) >>

There were also two Thorns (actually a Thorn and a Thorne, I think),
and two Davises.  But the railroad was so highly division-oriented
that this duplication of names between non-adjoining divisions
didn't cause any problems at all.

Rich Copeland

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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:13:12 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville PA

In a message dated 00-03-22 17:44:55 EST, cupper@mciworld.com writes:

<< through Pine Grove, to Dauphin. There, it  turned  southward
 and paralleled the PRR's Rockville Branch to Rockville. RDG >>

By Gawd, yer right!  I knew about this bizarre Reading route, but
had always thought RDG ownership ended at Dauphin and they
ran on the PRR the rest of the way into Harrisburg. Steam Powered
Video atlas (a wonderful "bible" for this type of thing) clearly shows
the abandoned Reading track, east of and parallel to ours, all the
way down into Reading's Harrisburg station.

Rich Copeland

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From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] X32 Wartime Troop Car Conversions (was Tan-Troop
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:27:13 -1000

Bruce, list,

The Autumn 1998 issue of The Keystone contains a comprehensive article on
wartime boxcar conversions.  A look at the X32 conversions reveals that
boxcars with both the inset and flush roof designs were used, so the old
Athearn metal roof does have some utility.

Ben Hom


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From: PKMac1@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:18:52 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] TWO Rockvilles!!!

Hi to All. There were also three MG's. One on the Bel-Del, one on the Chicago 
Term. and the more famous on the mountain at MP 243.4 Pgh. Div.
Pat McKinney
PRRT&HS

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From: "Brady Burdge" <burdgeb@interquest.de>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Divisions
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:41:16 +0200

>The answer to the question is "it depends": on the time era, mainly. The
PRR
>system was arranged and re-arranged in different divisions at different
>points in time. So when are you interested in?

Jim

The period around 1950

Brady
http://ogauge.homestead.com/


----- Original Message -----
From: <SNY114@aol.com>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 7:09 PM
Subject: [PRR] Divisions


The answer to the question is "it depends": on the time era, mainly. The PRR
system was arranged and re-arranged in different divisions at different
points in time. So when are you interested in?

Jim Anderson
Thorndale, PA
sny114@aol.com
PRRT&HS 3995
Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:44:12 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] X32 Wartime Troop Car Conversions (was Tan-Troop

Hey Yuze Gize,

Ben is right the roof will come into play again the future when Cannon Ball 
Shops uses in and Brass car sides to produce the PRR Troop cars.  Yes, there 
is no doubt that it a bit expensive but at least we should all have a chance 
at getting one.  When I spoke with them at the National Hobby Show this past 
Fall they said they were committed to upgrading the line, but it takes 
capitol and I think the Pullman Troop cars are a way to start the rebuilding 
process.  One exciting announcement was for an NYC (Yikes/Yuke/Yea depending 
on your view point) Wood Caboose and a re-release of their (Kurzt-Kraft) PS-1 
with the only scale 7 foot door (New Haven, early B&M) available.

Hope this helps.  And remember those converted Pullman Troop sleepers came 
rolling in of the New Haven on a daily basis and I think the same was going 
on in Chicago from the "Q" side.  

Hope this Helps...
Greg Martin 

Ben Hom write:
<Snip>
<< A look at the X32 conversions reveals that boxcars with both the inset and 
flush roof designs were used, so the old Athearn metal roof does have some 
utility. 
Ben Hom >>

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From: "Mark T. Evans" <mtevans@jps.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] X32 Wartime Troop Car Conversions
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:32:28 -0800

> Greg Martin said:

[snip]

>One exciting announcement was for an NYC (Yikes/Yuke/Yea depending
> on your view point) Wood Caboose and a re-release of their (Kurzt-Kraft)
PS-1
> with the only scale 7 foot door (New Haven, early B&M) available.

Intermountain has had a 7-ft. door version of their 40-ft. PS-1 available
for some time now. The initial release had incorrect length (too short) door
tracks, but the model has been corrected.

Mark T. Evans



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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 12:07:27 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s

Hello list,

My Bowser order arrived yesterday.  Among the goodies were an X31f in
the Circle Keystone scheme and a new frame for my G5s.

I built the G5s in 1994 (mine was the LIRR version; to me, the old high
sided tender was the lesser of the two evils offered at the time).  I
followed pictures of the 5741 at the RR Museum of PA, and completed my
model.

What motivated this rebuilding was a desire for flywheels and the fact
that in my ignnorance of what really causes binds I filed the bearing
slots in the frames.  The new frame atones for that error.

Removing the old Bowser gear and adding the NWSL gear was pretty
straightforward.  As I've posted in the past, I DO NOT try to change the
factory quartering.  I scribed a mark on the wheel and on the axle so
I'd have something to line up with when I put the wheel back together.
When removing wheels, always remove the uninsulated wheel if you have a
choice.  To get the bearing off, you'll have to file the striations that
hold the Bowser driver in place down a bit (this doesn't affect
reassembly).  Once the old gear is gone and the NWSL gear is in place,
reassemble slowly.

I have a sensipress, which I used with a V plate (NWSL sells both) to
reassemble the driver set.  I used the scribed lines on the wheel and
axle to line everything up.  It's better to do two or three small
presses rather than one big one.

I put all the drivers back into the frame, and I was lucky enough to
have everything run smoothly on reassembly.  When I first started
regearing engines, this was not the case; it does take practice.

One minor hiccup; the stock gearbox doesn't clear the frame slots and
braces.  I ended up filing down the crosspiece immediately behind the
first driver slot to minimum thickness, and I had to remove some of the
gearbox's rear to make it fit.  This cost me one of the screw holes to
mount the lower cover plate, so I'll be adding another alongside the
remaining one at the front of the  gearbox.

Now, I have to build a mounting pad for the motor (out of styrene
strip), complete the wiring, and see if I have room to stuff in a
flywheel.  I'm using one of NWSL's new 1630 motor (made by someone other
than Sagami).  Mine has dual shafts (2mm), and I had initially hoped to
mount the gear directly to the motor (which would have made the gearbox
and motor essentially one assembly) to save space and mount the biggest
flywheel I could find.  However, the 142-6 gearbox has a 2.4 mm shaft,
which makes this impractical.  I have some bushings that would fit over
the 2mm motor shaft to make it 2.4mm, but I fear that this will cause
wobble were I to mount the worm on the bushing on the shaft.

More on this as I progress.....

Doug


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From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 17:14:38 EST
Subject: [PRR] LL C-liners and other PRR items

Just got back from the East Coast Hobby show in Fort Washington and got the 
chance to see the C-liners in the PRR paint. Really looked nice had the four 
fans as per PRR. Hopefully in the future a B unit will follow.  Easten Car 
works was there the only new PRR item was a new set of sideframes for the 
MP-54. They are also offering new bolsters for all their trucks for the new 
P-87 style wheelsets.  Betlehem Car works had a display with their new PRR 
40' Truc Train trailers . Bowser was there with the finished K-9 stockcar and 
the end door X-33 both looked nice although the K-9 doesn't have see thru 
screening but witha wash of some black paint I think the effect would work. 
Also found a company making ceramic buildings in N, HO and O scale. Two of 
their structures are "J" tower now at Strasburg and the freight station at 
Gap. They had J tower in O scale with the HO version coming soon and the 
freight house was in all three scales. The windows on the freight house were 
a little heavy but the structure was nice looking and with a little work 
would fit right in a PRR railroad. As soon as I find the card from them I'll 
post the name and web address. 
                                                                           
Ken McCorry

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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:17:12 -0500
From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." <RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [PRR] Colossus

Just got back from the PM meet in Savannah.  Al Westerfield said he'd
have something new for the annual meeting as usual.  I also saw the
Colossus.  It's really great and I hope to have a few pictures soon to
forward to Jerry for posting.  I suspect a few people may want to try a
Wilmington module - if not have Wilmington on their layouts.  Jerry, too
bad you couldn't get them to do the Harrisburg station and especially
train shed.

John Ryan


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From: RGortowski@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:25:46 EST
Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Ltd.Milk Car

The Penny's 1950 Make-Up of Trains (New York Division No.19) shows the 
Eastbound Pennsylvania Limited (train 2) carrying a milk car daily from 
Chicago.  It does not have a destination listed.  Can anyone tell me more 
information about this operation, especially what type of equipment was used 
for this service and how it would get to Chicago Union Station?  

Thanks,

Rich

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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:28:51 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Colossus
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/26/00 8:17 PM, John F. Ryan, Jr. at (RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net)
wrote:

> I also saw the
> Colossus.  It's really great and I hope to have a few pictures soon to
> forward to Jerry for posting.  I suspect a few people may want to try a
> Wilmington module - if not have Wilmington on their layouts.

As previously noted by myself and Train Stuff...each dealer is only allowed
to order three of these kits for customers. Two of mine are sold. So act
fast if you want one!!!  ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:34:42 EST
Subject: [PRR] More on O Scale Victorians

Dear Pennsy Fans:

Many thanks for the responses.  Also my apologies.  I did not phrase my 
requirements very well.  
I've seen the IHC 5 San Francisco model houses (I've seen the prototypes, too 
- they're great).  They are nice models.  I'm looking for a large Victorian 
as might be found in the Pittsburgh / Ohio River valley.  Features of 
interest are:
- a wrap-around porch
- a turret
- 2 or 3 stories
- lots of gingerbread

In O, this house would probably occupy a fair amount of landscape.  The 
Lionel victorians and the IHC "painted ladies" (although much better detailed 
than Lionel) are somewhat reminiscent of "row houses" because they sit cheek 
to jowl.  I guess I'm looking for a victorian mansion.

Sorry for the incomplete requirements statement.

Thanks again.

George

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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:47:21 EST
Subject: [PRR] Weirton Steel

Dear Terry Stuart and the other Pennsy Fans:

Don't get me wrong.  My little hometown clings precariously to life, and I'm 
very concerned about its long-term future.  Regardless of the pollution, 
steel made the greater Pittsburgh area, and its demise has destroyed a great 
deal of it.

I, too remember the tremendous prosperity and standard of living brought by 
the mills.  My parents made a good life for me and my sister on the basis of 
that mill, and one that no service economy can easily match.

My father has given me a bundle of old Weirton Steel Bulletins, the monthly 
company magazine.  It is a wonderful resource for my building my layout and 
at the same time, a superb illustration of the American Dream in action 
during the late 50's and 60's.

Best wishes,

George

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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:52:01 -0600
From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>
Subject: [PRR] Opinions wanted, fascia color

Hello Listers:

My thanks to the many that shared their opinions and suggestions
concerning the best choice for fascia color.  After much consideration,
I have decided to go with a satin or egg shell black.  Now I must tell
you that I'll be putting at least two drops of green into each gallon of
black........  Just for fun! <VBG>

Larry


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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:20:11 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Reconstruction of the Zanesville Branch
From: Fred G Rea <fredrea@juno.com>

In December I posted information on the return of the Zanesville branch
to service to allow Norfolk Southern and Ohio Central to haul coal from a
new mine in Glouster OH to a power plant in Conesville.

I toured the Zanesville branch from Zanesville to New Lexington OH today
and took some slides.  Quite a bit of progress has been made as it is
returned to service after many years of inactivity.  Most noticeably, the
brush and trees have been removed from the ROW making it look like a
railroad once again.  The track is still in terrible condition, but 
reconstruction will begin soon.   The flange ways have been cleared at
all the grade crossings and the line appears to have  seen frequent use
by Hi-rail equipment.  There are many large piles of ties and ballast
along the ROW.  At least two bridges have been removed and are being
replaced.  The ones I saw were over creeks in Roseville and Crooksville. 
 Some kids in Roseville told me that the highway overpass just north of
the old depot will also be replaced.  A quick look at it shows it has
pretty tight clearances.  Many places where locals have encroached on the
ROW with fences, sheds, and junk are now cleared. 

I have heard that over 90% of the ties are being replaced and welded rail
will be laid. The 90% number seems low!  

As a side comment to modelers, my slide of the ROW in Crooksville will
also show the bank building, once marketed in HO as the Crooksville Bank
by Heljan, now Merchants Row-III by Walthers. 

Most grade crossings are getting major rebuilding.  In many cases the new
highway elevation is six inches to a foot higher than the existing rail
heads. In these spots some pieces of panel track (snap track to the
modelers) are laying on or near the old track. It will be interesting to
see if the rails get raised or the roads get lowered.

No obvious work has been performed on the high steel trestle near the
tunnel.  The dead wood has been cleared out of the rock cuts at both ends
of the tunnel.  While I could not get very close to the tunnel it appears
to be unlined rock with very tight clearances.  I have no idea if the
tunnel will be modified in any way.

Now for some questions.  All rhetorical, but maybe some on the list may
know the answers.  

First, the present track layout would require the following train
movements.  A train heading North from Glouster on the NS (formerly NYC)
would then have to back onto the OC (formerly PRR Zanesville branch) in
New Lexington.  Travel would be in reverse all the way to Zanesville
where the train would end up on the CSX (formerly B&O).  It could the
head forward across the Muskingum River and back onto the OC (formerly
W&LE) line and continue backwards to Conesville.  Replacing the missing
leg on the wye in New Lexington would solve part of the problem.  No such
simple solution in Zanesville.  Anybody know or have any idea how this
would be handled? I estimate there will be at least one 40 car train a
day.  While not huge by todays standards, I doubt 20 mile backing moves
would be considered.  Several run-around moves seems a bit much.  One
thought I had was putting power on each end so a manned locomotive leads
in either direction.  Any thoughts?

The second question.  What does one do with a too tight rock tunnel?
Daylighting is out of the question due to the amount of geology and
realestate above it. My guess is it will work as is but it sure ooks
small.

I have become fascinated as I watch the re-birth of a bit of the PRR.   I
hope to make several more visits to this line with my camera.   Let me
know if  additional  posts to the list are of interest to any one.

My aplogies to those who aren't familiar with SE Ohio geography.  An SPV
or old Rand-McNally RR Atlass will make much of this a lot clearer.

Fred Rea 
________________________________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:32:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reconstruction of the Zanesville Branch

On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Fred G Rea wrote:

> No obvious work has been performed on the high steel trestle near the
> tunnel.  The dead wood has been cleared out of the rock cuts at both ends
> of the tunnel.  While I could not get very close to the tunnel it appears
> to be unlined rock with very tight clearances.  I have no idea if the
> tunnel will be modified in any way.
> 
> The second question.  What does one do with a too tight rock tunnel?
> Daylighting is out of the question due to the amount of geology and
> realestate above it. My guess is it will work as is but it sure ooks
> small.

tight width or height? height, the answer is to undercut; width, is still
doable but harder. Port Authority did it with an ex-PRR line for the
creation of the West Busway in Pittsburgh, but it's probably far more than
they'd want to spend.

-D



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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:07:50 EST
Subject: [PRR] Savannah

Listers - Just got back from Savannah...dead tired! Two and a half hours 
getting through New York. Anyone that tells you that Savannah was a train 
show is putting you on! INDEED! It was a gathering of eagles which this 
sparrow was lucky enough to attend. Have a lot of stories. Was Pennsy 
represented? You better believe it! This was one of the best gatherings I 
have ever been privileged to attend. Some real heavy hitters but one big 
happy family. Jim Six and Bob Harpe are to be commended. Will there be one in 
Ohio in the future? Gotta get some sleep. Have more to tell you tomorrow. 
Dayna

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From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Weirton Steel
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:25:26 -0500

George Pandelios wrote...

>steel made the greater Pittsburgh area, and its demise has destroyed a
great
>deal of it.
>

The situation in Pittsburgh is worse than that, George.  Mayor Tom Murphy is
attempting to level AN ENTIRE SECTION of the city, taking the PRIVATE
PROPERTY consisting of dozens of historic buildings by EMINENT DOMAIN (which
is probably unconstitutional, but no one seems to care); so he can sell the
land to an out-of-town developer.  The idea is to replace the historic
OCCUPIED stores and businesses with "high rent district" specialty shops,
etc.  In other words, the last truly historic section of Pittsburgh will
then be destroyed.

And that doesn't even BEGIN to take into consideration the fact that the
bridges and streets are in a CONSTANT state of closure due to construction
projects...

... projects which include TWO NEW STADIUMS which the voters TWICE VOTED
AGAINST...

... and which no ORDINARY person wil be able to afford to go to anyway...

... plus they will then tear down THREE RIVERS STADIUM.

Every time I drive through there I thank the Good Lord for my childhood
memories of the REAL PITTSBURGH.

And...  that I am a model railroader who can "put it all back the way it was
supposed to be."








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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:21:00 -0500
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Weirton Steel


Don't forget about what Heinz did last year: they went straight to
Murphy and told him they wanted him to take land owned by a neighbor of
Heinz through Eminent Domain so Heinz could build a new warehouse. The
neighbor is the Pittsburgh Wool Company who had occupied that land for
120 years, and owned by the same family for 100 years. Heinz couldn't go
straight to Pittsburgh Wool and make a deal, they had to avoid them and
get the land for free. I'm not sure of how things were settled but I do
know Pittsburgh Wool got $5,000,000, the worth of the land, and not
enough money to establish themselves elsewhere. Just wait for the next
mayoral election.

> The situation in Pittsburgh is worse than that, George.  Mayor Tom Murphy is
> attempting to level AN ENTIRE SECTION of the city, taking the PRIVATE
> PROPERTY consisting of dozens of historic buildings by EMINENT DOMAIN (which
> is probably unconstitutional, but no one seems to care); 

Eminent Domain is practiced from the Feds on down. It is based on the
idea that the soveriegn power has the power to take private land for
public use with just compensation given. It is the only situation where
the individual has no choice, they have no right to fight the taking of
their land. The amount paid is determined by evaluating the worth of the
land ONLY, not everything else like buildings, machinery, etc. The
person/company can take the government to court if they disagree with
the determined worth  of the land but they still have to vacate the land
within the stated amount of time. And it's not like a company can just
reopen tomorrow somewhere else, they pretty much have to start over with
having to build a customer base, building/adapting buildings, etc. The
whole idea of Eminent Domain stems from Europe when all of the land was
owned by the King and therefore the King as the government could say the
land was going to be used for something else, even if it was being used
by people already.

Pittsburgh is the hometown of both my wife and me, and what we see from
afar while studying to be Planners sickens us. Murphy has no concern for
the people who already own businesses in downtown Pittsburgh, that it is
already a successful commercial area. He is still thinking along the
lines of the Urban Renewal programs of the 50's and 60's, the programs
that DIDN"T WORK. Just look at Allegheny Center on the North Side. And
where does he think all of those people who he is kicking out are going
to go? They are not going to just diappear, they have to go somewhere.
Murphy wants to attract people downtown but it looks like only a certain
type with the stores he wants to bring in. Yep, it's Urban renewal all
over again.

Now back to talking about the PRR.

Patrick

-- 
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of
the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a
patent yet." 
   -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky
PRRT&HS #6713
============================================================================

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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:49:03 -0500
Subject: [PRR] PARK Tower (Parkesburg, Pa.)
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Question about Parkesburg and the PARK tower there...

Triumph II shows the "classical" two story PRR tower there and states that
it was built in 1907. By "classic", I mean the stucco w/fancy wood trim,
like JACKS, LEMO, etc.

Then, on the facing page, it shows its replacement, as of 1997, a one story
somewhat boring brick structure.

Anyone know when the current structure replaced the "classical"?

If not exactly when, can anyone substantiate that one was present vs. the
other as of 1954?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
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From: "W. Terry Stuart" <tstuart@forcomm.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Weirton Steel
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:48:48 -0500

Patrick Rieger wrote...

Now back to talking about the PRR.

And I agree, with this one brief observation.  The PROBLEM is that everyday
Americans allow people like Mayor Tom Murphy to GET AWAY with this kind of
thing.  Whether they are "too busy" making money in the stock market or just
being "soccer moms," I'm not certain.  They won't wake up until a branch of
government does something to THEM, which will law of averages mandates will
eventually happen.  Then they'll be screaming bloody murder, when the damage
will have already been done, as it's being done in Pittsburgh.

I, for one, bombard my Senators and Representatives with letters (there is a
FABULOUS website which allows people to do this quickly and easily via
e-mail, which I would be happy to share with anyone off-line) and
continually make phone calls and other types of contacts and gain extreme
personal satisfaction from exercising my First Amendment rights, while we
still have them.  It's FUN to go after politicians, for whom I have
virtually NO RESPECT AT ALL, because of the way they mistreat their
constituents.  But, again, WE permit them to do it.

I personally believe that if the present power structure in Washington and
elsewhere (and Murphy is a part of this) is allowed to remain in place, the
Constitution of the United States WILL continue to be eroded and eventually
the United States will cease to be that country which other nations admire.
If you doubt my words in the least, look at the attacks on smokers, gun
owners, and probably soon SUV owners and purchasers of high-fat food--all of
which are perfectly legal products.

And...

NOW back to talking about the PRR!





-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
To: W. Terry Stuart <tstuart@forcomm.net>
Cc: GPandelios@aol.com <GPandelios@aol.com>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
<PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Sunday, March 26, 2000 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Weirton Steel


>
>Don't forget about what Heinz did last year: they went straight to
>Murphy and told him they wanted him to take land owned by a neighbor of
>Heinz through Eminent Domain so Heinz could build a new warehouse. The
>neighbor is the Pittsburgh Wool Company who had occupied that land for
>120 years, and owned by the same family for 100 years. Heinz couldn't go
>straight to Pittsburgh Wool and make a deal, they had to avoid them and
>get the land for free. I'm not sure of how things were settled but I do
>know Pittsburgh Wool got $5,000,000, the worth of the land, and not
>enough money to establish themselves elsewhere. Just wait for the next
>mayoral election.
>
>> The situation in Pittsburgh is worse than that, George.  Mayor Tom Murphy
is
>> attempting to level AN ENTIRE SECTION of the city, taking the PRIVATE
>> PROPERTY consisting of dozens of historic buildings by EMINENT DOMAIN
(which
>> is probably unconstitutional, but no one seems to care);
>
>Eminent Domain is practiced from the Feds on down. It is based on the
>idea that the soveriegn power has the power to take private land for
>public use with just compensation given. It is the only situation where
>the individual has no choice, they have no right to fight the taking of
>their land. The amount paid is determined by evaluating the worth of the
>land ONLY, not everything else like buildings, machinery, etc. The
>person/company can take the government to court if they disagree with
>the determined worth  of the land but they still have to vacate the land
>within the stated amount of time. And it's not like a company can just
>reopen tomorrow somewhere else, they pretty much have to start over with
>having to build a customer base, building/adapting buildings, etc. The
>whole idea of Eminent Domain stems from Europe when all of the land was
>owned by the King and therefore the King as the government could say the
>land was going to be used for something else, even if it was being used
>by people already.
>
>Pittsburgh is the hometown of both my wife and me, and what we see from
>afar while studying to be Planners sickens us. Murphy has no concern for
>the people who already own businesses in downtown Pittsburgh, that it is
>already a successful commercial area. He is still thinking along the
>lines of the Urban Renewal programs of the 50's and 60's, the programs
>that DIDN"T WORK. Just look at Allegheny Center on the North Side. And
>where does he think all of those people who he is kicking out are going
>to go? They are not going to just diappear, they have to go somewhere.
>Murphy wants to attract people downtown but it looks like only a certain
>type with the stores he wants to bring in. Yep, it's Urban renewal all
>over again.
>
>Now back to talking about the PRR.
>
>Patrick
>



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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:49:04 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Arranged Freight Schedules vs. Unit Trains
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Another question for y'all...

Obviously scores of unit trains (coal, ore, etc.) traveled the PRR each day.
In looking at the Arranged Freight Schedules, these trains don't seem to be
listed. Are these schedules for mixed freights only?

Did the unit trains have symbols? Or did they all run as extras, as they
were made ready and a route was available?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
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For Dealers and Manufacturers
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From: "Chany, Christopher" <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Arranged Freight Schedules vs. Unit Trains(TAN)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:07:05 -0500

Jerry wrote:

"Another question for y'all.."

Going Southern on us Jerry or did you sneak down to Savanah.


Chris Chany

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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:14:10 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Schedules vs. Unit Trains

--- Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com> wrote:
> Another question for y'all...
> 
> Obviously scores of unit trains (coal, ore, etc.)
> traveled the PRR each day.

As I recall, "Unit Trains" were a breaktrough in
meeting the cstomers' rail transportation needs
(additional hype optional) in the early 1960's. So, if
you're looking at references for "your era", you won't
find unit trains.



=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:19:26 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Schedules vs. Unit Trains
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/27/00 9:14 AM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote:

> As I recall, "Unit Trains" were a breaktrough in
> meeting the cstomers' rail transportation needs
> (additional hype optional) in the early 1960's. So, if
> you're looking at references for "your era", you won't
> find unit trains.
> 
By any other name...okay, let's call it a "coal drag"... a solid train of
coal cars...or a solid train of ore cars...these ran for decades. Did they
have symbols, or were they run as "extras" when ready and with a clear
route?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:19:21 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: RE: [PRR] X32 Wartime Troop Car Conversions (was Tan-Troop 

Ben wrote:
>The Autumn 1998 issue of The Keystone contains a comprehensive article on
>wartime boxcar conversions.  A look at the X32 conversions reveals that
>boxcars with both the inset and flush roof designs were used, so the old
>Athearn metal roof does have some utility.
>
Ben,

I always get it confused...which one had the inset roof?  I agree in
looking at the pics that at least some of the cars appear to have inset
roofs.  My Bowser X-32a has a flush roof, as does the Railworks P-30a.  The
article states that both X-32 and X-32a cars were used for conversions but
that all the troop sleepers were X-32 (and not X-32a).

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry
       _               _
      / \             / \
  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
 |- _______/ O     \_______ -| |_  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  _|
 | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |
 |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_|
 | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O | |=| 0==0                      0==0 |=|




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From: Stuthayer@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:25:21 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Schedules vs. Unit Trains

In a message dated 3/27/00 6:53:12 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< Obviously scores of unit trains (coal, ore, etc.) traveled the PRR each 
day.
 In looking at the Arranged Freight Schedules, these trains don't seem to be
 listed. Are these schedules for mixed freights only?
 
 Did the unit trains have symbols? Or did they all run as extras, as they
 were made ready and a route was available? >>

My experience with unit train operations is that some do run on a loose 
schedule, but most are run as extras.  The reason probably being that in the 
case of unit coal trains, the originating mine or tipple really dictates the 
schedule of when they can load a train.  In SE KY there were 4 hour unit 
train loading tipples and 24 hour.  What this tranlates into is that the 
tipple could only load a train every 4 or 24 hours.  When you refer to 
mineral trains such as ore, I am sure similar conditions would exist.  If the 
ore is being transloaded off of Great Lakes ore freighters, then the schedule 
of the boats in dock would have a lot o do with it I'm sure.

Stuart Thayer

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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:50:51 -0500
From: Rick Nelson <rcnelson@bright.net>
Subject: [PRR] ZAnesville Branch

Hope that Fred keeps up the reports on Zanesville Branch.  Very nice to see
somthing about the PRR in Ohio.

Rick Nelson, W8PRR

Luke 4:4


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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:48:33 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: [PRR] Photo archive at Virginia Tech

Although not directly a PRR matter, I found a N&W
resource which some of you might like to know about.

The URL is:

scholar.lib.vt.edu/imagebase

When N&W merged into NS, the N&W photo archive was
given to Virginia Tech.

There are hundreds or even thousands of images.
Unfortunately finding anything in particular is pretty
much pot luck. There is a search engine, but since
many of the images are "subject not yet entered", a
search can miss a lot.

Enjoy

=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:05:00 -0800 (PST)
From: robert netzlof <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Schedules vs. Unit Trains



--- Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com> wrote:
> On 3/27/00 9:14 AM, robert netzlof
> (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote:
> 
> > As I recall, "Unit Trains" were a breaktrough in
> > meeting the cstomers' rail transportation needs
> > (additional hype optional) in the early 1960's.
> So, if
> > you're looking at references for "your era", you
> won't
> > find unit trains.
> > 
> By any other name...okay, let's call it a "coal
> drag"... a solid train of
> coal cars...or a solid train of ore cars...these ran
> for decades. Did they
> have symbols, or were they run as "extras" when
> ready and with a clear
> route?
<snip>

Mark's freight schedules include (in file as20, I
think) a schedule for four coal trains from Altoona to
Southport. There is a note something like "to be run
as needed". There may be other such there, don't
recall off hand.

Part of the "deal" on unit trains was that the
equipment used was dedicated to that service and kept
in a high state of repair to promote reliability.
Hopper cars qualified for unit train service were
marked with, as I recall, a tall narrow yellow
triangle to denote their "better than ordinary"
status.

Another part of the concept was that the set of cars
stayed together, simply shuttling from producer to
consumer without being broken at yards between.
Contracts for unit train service often, if not always,
were for a fixed fee. Cars were not weighed (which
would have implied breaking the train), the cars to be
delivered "visibly full".



=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:27:04 -0500
From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] LL C-liners and other PRR items

KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: (in part)
> 
> . . .  Easten Car
> works was there the only new PRR item was a new set of sideframes for the
> MP-54. 
-- 

Is ECW making an MP54?????   :))) 

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

===================================================


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:11:36 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Schedules vs. Unit Trains

In a message dated 03/27/2000 09:28:41 Eastern Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

> By any other name...okay, let's call it a "coal drag"... a solid train of
>  coal cars...or a solid train of ore cars...these ran for decades. Did they
>  have symbols, or were they run as "extras" when ready and with a clear
>  route?
The correct Pennsy terminology is mineral train.

Rich Orr

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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:03:57 -0500
Subject: [PRR] PARK Interlocking Diagram
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

The interlocking diagram for PARK, available on Mark Bej's site, is revised
to 1963. It shows the "main line" west of the interlocking plant already
reduced to two tracks.

At one time the main line was four tracks west of this plant. Does anyone
have any earlier versions of this interlocking that are dated?

I wish to substantiate how many tracks were there in 1954.

The diagram in Triumph II shows the four tracks, but the date doesn't help
me. Anyone have a diagram from the mid to late '50's?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:29:41 EST
Subject: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv

In a message dated 3/26/2000 8:22:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, PKMac1@aol.com 
writes:

<< Hi to All. There were also three MG's. One on the Bel-Del, one on the 
Chicago 
 Term. and the more famous on the mountain at MP 243.4 Pgh. Div.
 Pat McKinney
 PRRT&HS >>

Where's MG on the Chicago Terminal?  Is it on the Fort Wayne side, or the 
Panhandle side?  (I don't have an ETT that covers this, so sorry for the 
ignorant question).

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West 

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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:45:11 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] PARK Interlocking Diagram
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/27/00 2:37 PM, E. Mike (evillmike@hotmail.com) wrote:

> I have a 1948 electrified trackage diagram that shows 4 tracks from PARK to
> almost CORK.  I could never understand why the PRR had a 4 track main there.
> The A&S makes it effectivly a 6 track main.  Furthermore it goes to 2
> tracks right before CORK.  I guess that they just didn't have the sence to
> revome 2 of the tracks when everything was rebuilt for the electrifacation.

The narrowing to 2 tracks before CORK is at the Conestoga Bridge, which was
only 2 tracks wide. The plan was to widen the bridge, but it never happened
once the Atglen & Susquehanna was developed instead.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:45:21 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] PARK Interlocking Diagram
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 5/16/39 2:29 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote:

> Jerry Britton scribit:
>> 
>> The interlocking diagram for PARK, available on Mark Bej's site, is revised
>> to 1963. It shows the "main line" west of the interlocking plant already
>> reduced to two tracks.
> 
> Jerry,
> I don't have specifics, but I was told it was a very early change.
> 
> I happen to have PRR Phila region [E]TT #13, effective April 29 1962, which
> shows only tracks 2 and 4 west of PARK. See p. 225, Special Instruction
> 1157-C1,
> which shows the speeds on various tracks.
> 
> Now this brings up a most interesting issue! I always remembered these tracks
> as being **#1** and #4. Cross-checking with PRR Eastern Reg ETT #23, effective
> April 30 1967, the same Special Instruction, p. 281, shows that the tracks are
> the familiar #1 and #4 from PARK to CORK. (West of CORK they become #1 and
> #2.)
> 
> Now, in the 1962 ETT, the tracks were #1 and #4 within the limits of PARK, and
> became #2 and #4 west of PARK.
> 
> Granted I've only narrowed your window by 1 year. I have older Philly ETTs at
> home I could check; please call me tonite after 21:00 to remind me to look

Mark (& list):

I didn't think to check an ETT for this information. I guess 'cause I didn't
recall a section of it indicating "how many tracks" each leg of the line
might have. Since I've PDF'd many of these books already, I decided to take
a look. Sure enough, the info is under the heading of "Maximum Speeds".

Now to answer my own question from the Philadelphia Division ETT (aviable on
"Keystone Crossings") effective 9/26/54 (the exact date I need)...

On page 67, four tracks are indicated from the Division Post (Philadelphia
Terminal Division) through THORN and PARK to CORK. From CORK to STATE to the
Division Post (Middle Division) two tracks are indicated.

>From HARRIS to BANKS, the freight and passenger mains are separate, but
parallel. It's interesting that the ETT indicates only Track 1 and Track 2,
with corresponding speeds for freight vs. passenger. It's almost as if each
line (freight or passenger) had its own Track 1 and Track 2 instead of being
tracks 1-4.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:51:28 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Okay, now that I've got the right term -- mineral traffic -- what sorts of
such would have passed through Harrisburg (not Enola) circa 1954?

I imagine eastbound coal...for power plants in Philly and perhaps New
York...with returning empties.

Ken McCorry indicated ore. From where to where?

Any others "solid consist" trains?  (See, I avoided that "unit train"
misnomer!)

Obviously I can model the usual local steel mill traffic between Harrisburg
and the Bethlehem mills at Steelton.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:19:14 -0500

Jerry:

For mineral traffic, don't forget "Hemotite" (spelling) a condensed iron ore
in 3/4" round purplish colored pellets.  I kinda remember them loaded into
hundreds of hoppers that were only 1/2 to 3/4 full because of the density of
the mineral.  As a kid, I used to climb aboard the stopped hoppers along the
Lancaster Broadway and retrieve handsfulls (actually, I put the stuff in my
pockets much to my mother's dismay) to play with.  It was neat stuff but
used to stain everything it came in contact with.  I remember the color of
the load of wash mom did when she missed several of those little balls in my
pockets before washing!  I remembered not to sit down too!  :-)

Lew Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
To: PRR-Talk LIST <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Monday, March 27, 2000 2:59 PM
Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic


>Okay, now that I've got the right term -- mineral traffic -- what sorts of
>such would have passed through Harrisburg (not Enola) circa 1954?
>
>I imagine eastbound coal...for power plants in Philly and perhaps New
>York...with returning empties.
>
>Ken McCorry indicated ore. From where to where?
>
>Any others "solid consist" trains?  (See, I avoided that "unit train"
>misnomer!)
>
>Obviously I can model the usual local steel mill traffic between Harrisburg
>and the Bethlehem mills at Steelton.
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
>Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
>    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
>For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
>    http://www.brasstrains.net
>For Dealers and Manufacturers
>    http://www.modelrailroadnews.net
>
>
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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:27:54 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

On 3/27/00 3:19 PM, lew matt (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote:

> For mineral traffic, don't forget "Hemotite" (spelling) a condensed iron ore
> in 3/4" round purplish colored pellets.  I kinda remember them loaded into
> hundreds of hoppers that were only 1/2 to 3/4 full because of the density of
> the mineral.  As a kid, I used to climb aboard the stopped hoppers along the
> Lancaster Broadway and retrieve handsfulls (actually, I put the stuff in my
> pockets much to my mother's dismay) to play with.  It was neat stuff but
> used to stain everything it came in contact with.  I remember the color of
> the load of wash mom did when she missed several of those little balls in my
> pockets before washing!  I remembered not to sit down too!  :-)
> 
Was this traffic heading east? To the Philly docks, perhaps?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
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"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
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For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://www.modelrailroadnews.net


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From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:50:00 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic

I imagine eastbound coal...for power plants in Philly and perhaps New
York...with returning empties.

Don't forget that Girard Point had grain facilities and Greenwich both in 
South Philly originated iron ore and shipped coal.  Thete were many mineral 
trains that ran to that location.  I would suspect that there were perishable 
blocks also as the fruit and vegetable markets were right next door also.

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From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:52:06 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic

For mineral traffic, don't forget "Hemotite" (spelling) a condensed iron ore
in 3/4" round purplish colored pellets.

The correct term is Taconite pellets.  They contain Hematite iron that was 
magnetically seperated from the fines after crushing at the iron source and 
fused into the iron balls for use in the blast furnaces.

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From: Mark Bej <bejm@eeg.ccf.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PARK Interlocking Diagram
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 100 17:25:44 -0500 (EST)

Jerry Britton scribit:
> 
> I didn't think to check an ETT for this information. I guess 'cause I didn't
> recall a section of it indicating "how many tracks" each leg of the line
> might have. Since I've PDF'd many of these books already, I decided to take
> a look. Sure enough, the info is under the heading of "Maximum Speeds".

It is _also_ there under "Track Assignments" which is just a bit earlier in the
timetable than Maximum Speeds. 1151, IIRC?

It is _also also_ there under Signal Rules, 1251 IIRC, though reading the
signal rules pages the way the PRR did them was considerably more difficult,
as they (PRR ETT writers) did not list them in (geographically) consistent
"jumps". I.e. it may list Tracks 1 and 4 from A to B, then the next line has
Tracks 2 and 3 from A to C, then Track 1 and 4 from B to C. I.e. not really 
confusing, and not truly incomplete, but just enough to be difficult to read
and comprehend "at a glance".

{
Unsolicited Editorial:
I've heard arguments like "well, railroading isn't easy, so why should this be?"
To which I simply reply that Einstein was right. (*) (**)
End Unsolicited Editorial
}


-- 
Mark




(*) things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
paraphrasing. exact quote upon request.

(**) to which I will add that making things more complicated than needed
is asking for trouble, and specifically for hunam eroor.


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From: PKMac1@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:56:32 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv

Rick. Going by the CT1000 May 1945 pg 386, distance from Colehour 5.5 miles, 
S.C.& S.R.R..
Any help? Thats all I can tell you.

Pat McKinney

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:18:49 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic

In a message dated 3/27/2000 2:38:51 PM Central Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< Was this traffic heading east? To the Philly docks, perhaps? >>

I am going crazy trying to find the article in Trains in the 50s on Pennsy 
ore traffic in my library.  Anyway, as someone pointed out already, the 
correct term for the pellets is taconite.  One of the other divisions of 
Allis-Chalmers where I worked many years ago was a leader in iron ore 
pelletizing plants.  
Long introduction to an answer.  Originally, a lot of the ore came from the 
Missabe range.  However, by at least the mid-50s import ore was a significant 
factor and I think the article I refer to points out the shift. To give you 
an idea, by the 70s a friend of mine and several Canadians had already moved 
to Sweden  where the mining equipment market had long ago shifted, near the 
artic circle. I am not sure when the shift to the taconite process took 
place, either on the Missabe range or overseas.
In addition, I did find the article in Trains in 1957 on the "World's Busiest 
Mountain Railroad".  In that there were four ore trains on the mountain at a 
midnight snapshot in time, September 2, 1956, all Westbound all or most 
Venezuelan import ore from Philadelphia and all loads. To give you an idea of 
names and makeup:

Train GH Ore,  56 loads,  5400 tons , Engines 6155 and 6456  (J1's ? 
downhill).
Train WBJ Ore , 80 loads and one empty , 8000 tons,  Engines 9618A, 9620B, 
9622B (downhill).
Train Ore Extra, 36 loads and one empty, 3700 tons, Engines 8809 and 8810, 
helper 5817, nearing the summit.
Train GH Ore, Extra, 55 loads, 5500 tons, Engines 9490A, 9476B, 9453B, 9473A, 
helper 5814.

I believe at the time we were exporting coal and importing ore so the hoppers 
got max utilization both ways

Bob Zoeller




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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:21:27 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic

In a message dated 3/27/2000 2:37:47 PM Central Standard Time, 
lmatt@alltel.net writes:

<< I remember the color of
 the load of wash mom did when she missed several of those little balls in my
 pockets before washing!   >>

I'm a big boy, but my new bride looks at me like I am crazy when she empties 
my pockets after at trip to the Wisconsin Central/s Fondulac  shops and finds 
those little round balls of taconite.  Picked up loose in the carshops.  A 
lot of Ortner dump cars in for repair.

Bob Zoeller

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:57:52 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic

In a message dated 03/27/2000 3:00:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< I imagine eastbound coal...for power plants in Philly and perhaps New
 York...with returning empties.
  >>
Jerry:

East bound ore for export off the Buffalo line from the ore docks in Erie and 
south bound ore from the docks in Sodus Point.  Also coal from the same docks.

Destinations would be export through Philly and Baltimore ports.  Also may 
have been route of ore and soft coal for coke to Bethlehem-Allentown mills 
and other steel mills in the eastern part of the state and around Baltimore.  
You can reverse send hard coal loads for home heating etc. westward.  Would 
be in Anthricite road cars since these roads loaded most of the hard coal.  
So you can run these back home as mt's.

Remember H21 cars with ore were only filled to about 1/3 volume because of 
the weight so you need small loads down in the car.

Rich Orr

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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:56:31 -0000


First of all from at least the 1920s (maybe even before) all PRR freight
trains ran as extras, that is to say there were no timetable scheduled
freight trains. Read the fine print on the arranged freight service
schedules - "The time shown conveys no timetable authority."  So to say did
they have symbols or did they run as extra is not correct - they all ran as
extras, typically only passenger and mail trains ran as a 'Regular Train' -
i.e., a train authorized by a time-table schedule.

The times show in the arranged freight service schedule was the 'game plan'
and trains departed when they were determined to be ready to depart. Each
train was typically destined to carry specific blocks of traffic for a
specific destination and the connecting train(s) for each block was
specified. Some trains were dedicated to carry only specific commodities,
some trains were designated to carry all commodities, while others were to
carry all commodities except specified ones (stock and perishables because
of the time sensitivity of these commodities were typical exclusions).

Some times a specific block was mineral in nature. For examples on the E&P
Branch - train EP-1, Conway-Erie, had a 'Lake Coal' block, among other
merchandise type blocks, for the coal dock at Erie; there was also a train
ES-1, Shire Oaks-Erie, which was typically a solid coal train for the coal
dock at Erie; and there was also a SN-1/2 train, Shenango-Niles, which ran
as required to handle the movement of ore from the B&LE interchange at
Shenango, PA to various locations between those two points.

The frequency of each symbol train is also specified Daily, DESS, MWF, etc.
as well as - 'as required'. Typically the 'as required trains' (but not
always) were those that handled the mineral traffic, as that type traffic
was the function of sufficient cars being marshaled at mine yards to make a
block or train, or the arrival of ore boats on Lake Erie or the ore ships at
Philly from South America.

With all of these trains each car and its commodity was typically a separate
movement to a separate consignee with a separate waybill. In some cases, I
believe, multiple cars to a single consignee could run under a single
waybill but I would say this was the exception.

The unit train concept introduced around the 1960s was a complete train of
one commodity for one consignee and if my memory serves me right, could move
under one waybill, regardless of the number of cars in the train. For all
intents and purposes many of these were dedicated trains. For example the
Detroit Edison trains even had Detroit Edison motive power assigned. The
idea was to keep that train intact to maximize its effectiveness.

When the 100-ton H43 series hoppers came on line they had 'yellow balls'
marked on the side (not triangles as someone said) and the purpose of that
marking was to alert transpiration people on the ground not to break up sets
of those cars for use in other less desirable services. Of course this
didn't always work - when some trainmaster on the ground is screaming we
need a hopper - he got a hopper yellow ball or no.

Someone mentioned eastbound ore going to Philly, and there were no furnaces
in PHL. No way, ore was an inbound commodity at PHL not outbound. Some may
have been going to Morrisville, north or PHL. By 1964 sufficient amounts of
iron ore were moving west from PHL to the Mahoning, Shenango, Mon and Ohio
valleys. Many of these movements were by solid trains of ore.
Some ships arriving at PHL had ore for USS at Morrisville, but because of
the depth of the Delaware River channel had to be made lighter at PHL before
proceeding up river to finish the discharge at Morrisville. The ore that was
off-loaded at PHL was moved by solid train to Morrisville by the PRR.

Someone mentioned 'Hematite' as a commodity - perhaps, I never heard that
term, mostly what the PRR moved was 'Taconite', which were the purplish
marble sized pellets previously described.

Someone else said cars were not weighed (which would have implied breaking
the train). While the cars in a unit train may not have requiring weighing -
the PRR did have weigh-in-motion scales on which a complete train could be
weighed while enroute. I believe there were three locations, Denholm,
Morrisville and another, which escapes me at this time.

In later years, I believe under Penn Central, the arranged freight schedules
had a special section for unit train symbols.

Hope this clarifies some 'stuff'.

Al


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:03:58 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic

In a message dated 03/27/2000 3:00:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< Any others "solid consist" trains?  (See, I avoided that "unit train"
 misnomer!)
  >>
Live stock for Lancaster.  Principally off FW-8. These would have been fed 
and watered on Herr's Island in Pittsburgh so you have 36 hours to get them 
off loaded at Lancaster and points east.  See Marks freight car schedule for 
details.  In the early 50's this was still exclusively a live stock train the 
classifed freight was not yet being tacked on to fill out the train.  FW = 
feed and water in this case not Fort Wayne orgin.   

Also, blocks of produce for points east.

Rich Orr

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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:30:30 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] LL C-liners and other PRR items

Andy, list,

The ECW MP54 sideframes are intended for the Trainstuff MP54s.  Trainstuff's
website is www.trainstuffllc.com.

Now, does anyone have any ideas on power trucks (since the NWSL PDTs are out of
production for the moment)?

Doug

Andy Miller wrote:

> KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: (in part)
> >
> > . . .  Easten Car
> > works was there the only new PRR item was a new set of sideframes for the
> > MP-54.
> --
>
> Is ECW making an MP54?????   :)))
>
> Regards,
>
> Andy Miller
> asmiller@mitre.org
>
> ===================================================
>
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From: DWa9975062@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:24:56 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] LL C-liners and other PRR items

Andy, Doug & list - Trainstuff has their own drive with correct 8' axle 
spacing and 36" wheels. Both trucks are powered. It will pull 2 or 3 
trailers. 
Side frames should fit both powered and unpowered units.
Dayna

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:57:06 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic

In looking at my post from Trains I was struck by the loco variety in 
September, 1956.  Please feel free to correct my number-type cross-reference, 
but as I make it out, the four trains were:
Train GH Ore.  J1's 6155 and 6456
Train WBJ Ore   Alco FAs 9618A, 9620B, 9622B 
Train Ore Extra.  Baby trainmasters  8809 and 8810, with Baldwin centipede 
helper
  5817 (apparently giving only the lead unit number).
Train GH Ore.  FM  9490A, 9476B, 9453B, 9473A,  (9453B a C-liner, the others 
Erie-builts?) ,helper Centipede 5814.
Great for the roster collector.

Bob Zoeller

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From: FredAbend@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:57:51 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PARK Interlocking Diagram

January 1, 1950 track chart (which Rails Northeast published as a two volume 
set for the New York-Chicago main line) shows four tracks all the way from 
Parkesburg to the "bottleneck" at the Conestoga River bridge.
--Fred Abendschein

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From: "Steve Hipes" <sthipes@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:58:47 PST

Regarding Al's posting on the weigh in motion scales, the third scale was 
(is) at McElhatten, near Lock Haven on the Buffalo Line.

Steve
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:50:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PARK Interlocking Diagram

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 FredAbend@aol.com wrote:

> January 1, 1950 track chart (which Rails Northeast published as a two volume 
> set for the New York-Chicago main line) shows four tracks all the way from 
> Parkesburg to the "bottleneck" at the Conestoga River bridge.

Things like this really make me wish it wasn't so hard/expensive to find
back issues of Rails Northeast....

Sigh.

-D



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From: "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:12:36 +0100

Doug,
Have you tried using the NWSL universal couplings?  They do a number of  2.4
and a 2mm sets which come together in the same pack.  I use them for
connecting motors to gearboxes in almost all motor / gearbox upgrades these
days.  You have to make sure the gearbox doesn't move around, though.  A
'steady' bar fixing gearbox to motor usually solves this problem.

Regards,
John H. Wright
Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/

-----Original Message-----
From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: 26 March 2000 18:51
Subject: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s


>
>
>Now, I have to build a mounting pad for the motor (out of styrene
>strip), complete the wiring, and see if I have room to stuff in a
>flywheel.  I'm using one of NWSL's new 1630 motor (made by someone other
>than Sagami).  Mine has dual shafts (2mm), and I had initially hoped to
>mount the gear directly to the motor (which would have made the gearbox
>and motor essentially one assembly) to save space and mount the biggest
>flywheel I could find.  However, the 142-6 gearbox has a 2.4 mm shaft,
>which makes this impractical.  I have some bushings that would fit over
>the 2mm motor shaft to make it 2.4mm, but I fear that this will cause
>wobble were I to mount the worm on the bushing on the shaft.
>
>More on this as I progress.....
>
>Doug
>
>
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>


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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:30:52 -0500
From: Park Varieties <parkvarieties@provide.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s

John,

Could you elaborate a little more on the gear box "steady" and how it is
installed?
I have been seriously contemplating upgrades for all my brass steam to include
the NWSL u-joints. Thanks.

Frank Brua
John H. Wright wrote:

> Doug,
> Have you tried using the NWSL universal couplings?  They do a number of  2.4
> and a 2mm sets which come together in the same pack.  I use them for
> connecting motors to gearboxes in almost all motor / gearbox upgrades these
> days.  You have to make sure the gearbox doesn't move around, though.  A
> 'steady' bar fixing gearbox to motor usually solves this problem.
>
> Regards,
> John H. Wright
> Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
> http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
> To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
> Date: 26 March 2000 18:51
> Subject: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
>
> >
> >
> >Now, I have to build a mounting pad for the motor (out of styrene
> >strip), complete the wiring, and see if I have room to stuff in a
> >flywheel.  I'm using one of NWSL's new 1630 motor (made by someone other
> >than Sagami).  Mine has dual shafts (2mm), and I had initially hoped to
> >mount the gear directly to the motor (which would have made the gearbox
> >and motor essentially one assembly) to save space and mount the biggest
> >flywheel I could find.  However, the 142-6 gearbox has a 2.4 mm shaft,
> >which makes this impractical.  I have some bushings that would fit over
> >the 2mm motor shaft to make it 2.4mm, but I fear that this will cause
> >wobble were I to mount the worm on the bushing on the shaft.
> >
> >More on this as I progress.....
> >
> >Doug
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:27:23 -0500
From: Drew McGhee <drm6@psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.

Greetings to Al and the group,

There is a weigh in motion scale for mineral freight on the PRR's old
Northern Division between Lock Haven and McElhattan (RICH). It was
installed around the time of the PC merger and is still in use by NS.

Drew R. McGhee
Altoona, PA
drm6@psu.edu
http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/


At 07:56 PM 03/27/2000 -0000, Al wrote:

stuff deleted.

>
>Someone else said cars were not weighed (which would have implied breaking
>the train). While the cars in a unit train may not have requiring weighing -
>the PRR did have weigh-in-motion scales on which a complete train could be
>weighed while enroute. I believe there were three locations, Denholm,
>Morrisville and another, which escapes me at this time.
>
>In later years, I believe under Penn Central, the arranged freight schedules
>had a special section for unit train symbols.
>
>Hope this clarifies some 'stuff'.
>
>Al


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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:27:37 -0500
From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] LL C-liners and other PRR items

Is this an under-the-floor power truck or will all of my commuter trains
have to have a combine or baggage car to hide the motor?

Is the $125 price for a powered unit and the $75 price for the dummy?
Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

===================================================
DWa9975062@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Andy, Doug & list - Trainstuff has their own drive with correct 8' axle
> spacing and 36" wheels. Both trucks are powered. It will pull 2 or 3
> trailers.
> Side frames should fit both powered and unpowered units.
> Dayna
> 
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--


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From: "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:41:33 -0500

It was the interlocking at Calumet Park. The S.C.& S.R.R. crossed the IHB
and Michigan Central. Unfortunately, the tower was a two story wood frame
structure and did not possess the architectural beauty of its counterpart
near Horseshoe Curve.  :(

Ted  
-----Original Message-----
From: PKMac1@aol.com [mailto:PKMac1@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 5:57 PM
To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv


Rick. Going by the CT1000 May 1945 pg 386, distance from Colehour 5.5 miles,

S.C.& S.R.R..
Any help? Thats all I can tell you.

Pat McKinney

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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:43:50 -0600
From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv



PKMac1@aol.com wrote:

> Rick. Going by the CT1000 May 1945 pg 386, distance from Colehour 5.5 miles,
> S.C.& S.R.R..

ie-Calumet Park tower.

Richard Wallis



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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:12:25 -0600
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: [PRR] MP 54 - was LL C-liners and other PRR items

Doug said:

>The ECW MP54 sideframes are intended for the Trainstuff MP54s.  Trainstuff's
>website is www.trainstuffllc.com.
>
>Now, does anyone have any ideas on power trucks (since the NWSL PDTs are
>out of
>production for the moment)?

Would the new Bowser HO Trolley Mechanisms work?

the Specifics:
#125100   With 26" wheels    $42.50
#125110   With 30" wheels   $42.50
#125120   With 34" wheels   $42.50

6' 6" Wheel Base Power Truck
Can motor
Universals and drive shaft
Gear box with bearings
All-wheel pickup
Bolster with screw holes for mounting geared truck
Electric track brake side frames

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
                           __
                          /  \
  __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________
 |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |
 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|
 | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0



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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Weirton Steel
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:52:43 -0500

Yeah, the old Pittsburgh.  Station Square a station instead of a mall.
Trolleys.  Real steam boats.  Forbes Field.  The Montour Railroad.  Those
were sure the good old days.  I suppose progress is progress, but . . . . .
!!??

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

-----Original Message-----
From: W. Terry Stuart <tstuart@forcomm.net>
To: GPandelios@aol.com <GPandelios@aol.com>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
<PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Sunday, March 26, 2000 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Weirton Steel


>George Pandelios wrote...
>
>>steel made the greater Pittsburgh area, and its demise has destroyed a
>great
>>deal of it.
>>
>
>The situation in Pittsburgh is worse than that, George.  Mayor Tom Murphy
is
>attempting to level AN ENTIRE SECTION of the city, taking the PRIVATE
>PROPERTY consisting of dozens of historic buildings by EMINENT DOMAIN
(which
>is probably unconstitutional, but no one seems to care); so he can sell the
>land to an out-of-town developer.  The idea is to replace the historic
>OCCUPIED stores and businesses with "high rent district" specialty shops,
>etc.  In other words, the last truly historic section of Pittsburgh will
>then be destroyed.
>
>And that doesn't even BEGIN to take into consideration the fact that the
>bridges and streets are in a CONSTANT state of closure due to construction
>projects...
>
>... projects which include TWO NEW STADIUMS which the voters TWICE VOTED
>AGAINST...
>
>... and which no ORDINARY person wil be able to afford to go to anyway...
>
>... plus they will then tear down THREE RIVERS STADIUM.
>
>Every time I drive through there I thank the Good Lord for my childhood
>memories of the REAL PITTSBURGH.
>
>And...  that I am a model railroader who can "put it all back the way it
was
>supposed to be."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From: "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
Subject: [PRR] Prints from slide collection
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:00:54 +0100

Six images  from the slide collection I posted about last week are now on
the web:

http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm

The slides were taken at random with the exception of the Renovo shot which
one of the members of the list wanted to see.

1) J1, location unknown
2) I1 on the hump at Renovo (I think?)
3) L1 with auxilliary tender double heading with RS3 unit, location unknown
4) GG1 in Tuscan red, pin stripe livery, location unkown.
5) Fairbanks Morse FS10 switcher  (specially for Greg Martin)
6) A pair of Baldwin BP20s in Tuscan Red single stripe livery ......
possibly on Long Branch duty?

Any information about the locations or whatever,  will be appreciated.


Regards,
John H. Wright
Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/







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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:12:14 -0500
From: Garry <gspear@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.

> 
> When the 100-ton H43 series hoppers came on line they had 'yellow balls'
> marked on the side (not triangles as someone said) and the purpose of that
> marking was to alert transpiration people on the ground not to break up sets
> of those cars for use in other less desirable services. Of course this
> didn't always work - when some trainmaster on the ground is screaming we
> need a hopper - he got a hopper yellow ball or no.
> 
I was given a different reason by the Chief Air Brake Inspector, Central
Region.  His reason was that these were the first PRR cars equipped with
ABD air brakes.  The Yellow Ball was a visual reminder to the train
crews that these cars' ABD air brakes would release much quicker and
with a smaller brake pipe increase that the normal (mid 1960s) AB air
brakes.   With a loaded hopper releasing brakes quicker than expected
and on roller bearing cars the train would start down hill quicker than
the crews were expecting.
Garry Spear

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From: "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:40:15 +0100

For details of a 'steady bar' connecting gearbox to motor have a look at the
following web page:

http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/p87/loco1.htm

You'll find an account of the conversion of a Sunset A5 0-4-0 to P87
track/wheel standards.  There are photos and a description of the motor
gearbox relationship that might be useful to you.

Regards,
John H. Wright
Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/

-----Original Message-----
From: Park Varieties <parkvarieties@provide.net>
To: John H. Wright <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
Cc: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>; prr-talk@dsop.com
<prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: 28 March 2000 13:38
Subject: Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s


>John,
>
>Could you elaborate a little more on the gear box "steady" and how it is
>installed?
>I have been seriously contemplating upgrades for all my brass steam to
include
>the NWSL u-joints. Thanks.
>
>Frank Brua
>John H. Wright wrote:
>
>> Doug,
>> Have you tried using the NWSL universal couplings?  They do a number of
2.4
>> and a 2mm sets which come together in the same pack.  I use them for
>> connecting motors to gearboxes in almost all motor / gearbox upgrades
these
>> days.  You have to make sure the gearbox doesn't move around, though.  A
>> 'steady' bar fixing gearbox to motor usually solves this problem.
>>
>> Regards,
>> John H. Wright
>> Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
>> http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
>> To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
>> Date: 26 March 2000 18:51
>> Subject: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Now, I have to build a mounting pad for the motor (out of styrene
>> >strip), complete the wiring, and see if I have room to stuff in a
>> >flywheel.  I'm using one of NWSL's new 1630 motor (made by someone other
>> >than Sagami).  Mine has dual shafts (2mm), and I had initially hoped to
>> >mount the gear directly to the motor (which would have made the gearbox
>> >and motor essentially one assembly) to save space and mount the biggest
>> >flywheel I could find.  However, the 142-6 gearbox has a 2.4 mm shaft,
>> >which makes this impractical.  I have some bushings that would fit over
>> >the 2mm motor shaft to make it 2.4mm, but I fear that this will cause
>> >wobble were I to mount the worm on the bushing on the shaft.
>> >
>> >More on this as I progress.....
>> >
>> >Doug
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>>
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>
>
>
>
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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:29:22 -0000

-----Original Message-----
From: Garry [mailto:gspear@erols.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 8:12 PM
To: Alan Buchan
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.

Gary said>
The Yellow Ball was a visual reminder to the train crews that these cars'
ABD air brakes would release much quicker and
with a smaller brake pipe increase that the normal (mid 1960s) AB air
brakes.
---------------------------
What you said regarding the dynamics of handling a train with ABD brakes may
be true and the yellow balls would certainly assist a crew in identifying
that potential. However, the symbol was meant to show the car to be in
special or assigned service such as unit train. This is substantiated in
'The Pennsy' Sep-Oct 1964 issue, page 22, article on the class H-43 cars. As
I recall car trucks and side bearings on the class H43 cars were
subsequently modified at some point in time to prevent their rocking off the
track at certain speeds. Those cars, so modified, received a black dot
within the center of the yellow ball.

Markings on the side of a car were typically instructions to station agents,
yardmasters and other personnel concerned with allowable commodities,
special load capacities as well as the use and routing of the car. Some
markings were also used to indicate the presence of special interior load
restraining devices and other damage free (DF) equipment. I know for awhile
the WM marked the all of their cars equipped with roller bearings with
special yellow markings.

Most train crews never walked or saw their entire train on the ground before
departing a terminal, except for a conductor or trainmen who walked the
train observing the application and release of brakes during a terminal
departure test. Therefore, would have not observed any cars special
markings. A train crew's major clue as to what they were hauling was a
consist list (or waybills) indicating number of loads and mtys and a listing
of all cars in the train. It would be primarily from this a conductor and
engineman would determine the types of cars in the train and there placement
within the train (e.g., loads up front-mtys in rear, mtys up front-loads in
rear, all loads, all mtys, or whatever) and thus some clue as to what
train-track dynamics to expect enroute. This is especially important for the
enginemen to know when operating over undulating terrain.

BTW FWIW - In later years hoppers and hi-side gons with rotary couplers (no
PRR cars) were given special color markings on the rotary end of the car.
This was to ensure that a rotary end was always coupled to a non-rotary end
and that two non-rotary ends were not together. If at the unloading point
the crew noticed that two non-rotary ends were coupled, they could stop the
unloading process before ripping out the coupler and derailing the trailing
car. Handling the misaligned cars would disrupt the throughput but save a
major rerailing operation.

Al


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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:28:41 -0600
From: Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>
Subject: [PRR] Tower signs

Hello SPF's:

Can anyone tell me what the height of the Pennsy tower signs were.  An
approximation will do.

Thank you,

Larry


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From: DPoole17@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:55:09 EST
Subject: [PRR] PC RAILROADER - RAILS NORTHEAST

I have PC RAILROADER from JANUARY 1974 to DECEMBER 1975 and I have RAILS 
NORTHEAST from JANUARY 1976 to DECEMBER 1982.  These magazines are in good 
condition and are excellent reference material.  They are FOR SALE.
Contact . . . DICK POOLE    Dpoole17@aol.com

ASKING $150

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From: "mcmahon" <radclyff@erie.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower signs
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:05:43 -0500

Tower DF's sign is about 30 in

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Reynolds" <reynoldl@gte.net>
To: "PRR-Talk LIST" <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 6:28 PM
Subject: [PRR] Tower signs


> Hello SPF's:
> 
> Can anyone tell me what the height of the Pennsy tower signs were.  An
> approximation will do.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
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> 


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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:59:31 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s

John, list,

I used the NWSL universal couplings on the first Bowser G5s chassis (it
masquerades as CNJ L7sa 778 with a kitbashed Mantua shell).  They work just
fine.  They do, however, take up a bit of space which I'd rather use for a
flywheel if I have a choice.  I have added an NWSL 16mm flywheel to the second
(rear) shaft of the motor.  Coasting action is minimal (it doesn't coast like my
Alco repowered K4s engines, anyway), but it should get over dead spots just
fine.

I'm using a section of flexible tubing to attach my motor and gearbox on my G5s
at the moment; I have left enough space (I hope) to use the universal joints if
I need to.  The universal joints are smoother in operation, while the flexible
tubing obviates the need for a torque arm to hold the gearbox upright.  I have
found the Bowser G5s chassis a bit cramped to work on, so I consider the
flexible tubing a benefit, at least for now.

Another list member pointed out that NWSL sells a conversion kit for their 142-6
gearbox that switches the gearbox shaft from 2.4mm to 2.0 mm.  It's NWSL part
165-6 (I have looked through their catalog several times and not seen this part
until it was pointed out to me; I learn something new every day!!!).  I will
probably order a couple, as I'll be builder several more G5s engines in the
future (once again, several will become CNJ camelbacks for my New York and Long
Branch, and at least one more will become PRR).

One other concern of mine; the current NWSL 1630 motor has 17 mm shafts (in the
double shafted version), which are barely long enough to mate to the 142-6
gearbox.  I might not have enough space between the motor and gearbox to mount
the valve gear hangers; I'm not sure what I'll do about this when and if the
time comes.

I always welcome further suggestions or comments.  Until I joined the list, I
felt like the last steam modeller on earth.  It is nice to have company.

Doug

"John H. Wright" wrote:

> Doug,
> Have you tried using the NWSL universal couplings?  They do a number of  2.4
> and a 2mm sets which come together in the same pack.  I use them for
> connecting motors to gearboxes in almost all motor / gearbox upgrades these
> days.  You have to make sure the gearbox doesn't move around, though.  A
> 'steady' bar fixing gearbox to motor usually solves this problem.
>
> Regards,
> John H. Wright
> Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
> http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
> To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
> Date: 26 March 2000 18:51
> Subject: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
>
> >
> >
> >Now, I have to build a mounting pad for the motor (out of styrene
> >strip), complete the wiring, and see if I have room to stuff in a
> >flywheel.  I'm using one of NWSL's new 1630 motor (made by someone other
> >than Sagami).  Mine has dual shafts (2mm), and I had initially hoped to
> >mount the gear directly to the motor (which would have made the gearbox
> >and motor essentially one assembly) to save space and mount the biggest
> >flywheel I could find.  However, the 142-6 gearbox has a 2.4 mm shaft,
> >which makes this impractical.  I have some bushings that would fit over
> >the 2mm motor shaft to make it 2.4mm, but I fear that this will cause
> >wobble were I to mount the worm on the bushing on the shaft.
> >
> >More on this as I progress.....
> >
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
> >
> >


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Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:05:10 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s

Frank, list,

Once you add a gearbox to a Bowser steamer (or any other engine that had a
conventional worm and gear relationship), you have to find a way to keep it from
flopping around.  If you use flexible tubing to connect the motor and gearbox, the
gearbox will stay up, but it will not be quite as smooth as if you used NWSL
universal couplings.

On my first G5s gearbox conversion, I drilled and tapped an 0-80 hole on the left
side of the frame by the main driving axle.  I used a thin strip of brass and cut
holes in each end; one end is attached to the gearbox, and another is attached to
the frame; the gearbox is now fixed in place.  I call this a torque arm, though I
now believe this is inaccurate.

In any case, the universal couplings are worth the effort, though they'll take
some shoehorning to fit into smaller models like the Bowser G5s and E6s (I've done
gearbox conversions using the 142-6 gearbox on each; on the E6s I sacrificed the
flywheel, though I now think I could have found a way to shoehorn it in).

On most recent brass imports, a torque arm connects the gearbox and motor,
preventing binds in the universal joints.

Doug

Park Varieties wrote:

> John,
>
> Could you elaborate a little more on the gear box "steady" and how it is
> installed?
> I have been seriously contemplating upgrades for all my brass steam to include
> the NWSL u-joints. Thanks.
>
> Frank Brua
> John H. Wright wrote:
>
> > Doug,
> > Have you tried using the NWSL universal couplings?  They do a number of  2.4
> > and a 2mm sets which come together in the same pack.  I use them for
> > connecting motors to gearboxes in almost all motor / gearbox upgrades these
> > days.  You have to make sure the gearbox doesn't move around, though.  A
> > 'steady' bar fixing gearbox to motor usually solves this problem.
> >
> > Regards,
> > John H. Wright
> > Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
> > http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
> > To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
> > Date: 26 March 2000 18:51
> > Subject: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >Now, I have to build a mounting pad for the motor (out of styrene
> > >strip), complete the wiring, and see if I have room to stuff in a
> > >flywheel.  I'm using one of NWSL's new 1630 motor (made by someone other
> > >than Sagami).  Mine has dual shafts (2mm), and I had initially hoped to
> > >mount the gear directly to the motor (which would have made the gearbox
> > >and motor essentially one assembly) to save space and mount the biggest
> > >flywheel I could find.  However, the 142-6 gearbox has a 2.4 mm shaft,
> > >which makes this impractical.  I have some bushings that would fit over
> > >the 2mm motor shaft to make it 2.4mm, but I fear that this will cause
> > >wobble were I to mount the worm on the bushing on the shaft.
> > >
> > >More on this as I progress.....
> > >
> > >Doug
> > >
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> > >
> >
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:20:59 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Circulators on M1b class and on K4sa class

Hello list,

I was going over my PRR steam photos again (my excuse this time was
preparing to catalog the photos in Pennsy Steam: A Second Look to help
Jerry with the steam database project) when it hit me that the M1b class
and K4sa class engines got circulators about the same time (the first
M1b engines appearing around 1944 and the first K4sa engines appearing
right after the end of WWII).

So, do any of you think there's any relationship between the 2 rebuild
programs here?  I think I'm reading into this a bit much, as the M1b
class got renewed boilers, while no evidence has come to light regarding
boiler renewals for the K4sa class.  Also, why would the M1b engines get
higher boiler pressure and the K4sa class not, and why would the K4sa
engines get front end throttles and skip the M1b engines?

As always, just a bit curious!

Doug


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From: BigHookX45@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:40:57 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Weirton Steel

In a message dated 00-03-28 12:04:09 EST, you write:

> Yeah, the old Pittsburgh.  Station Square a station instead of a mall.
>  Trolleys.  Real steam boats.  Forbes Field.  The Montour Railroad.  Those
>  were sure the good old days.  I suppose progress is progress, but . . . . .
>  !!??

At least your not in Coumbus, OH.  Everything here seems to have been built 
within the last 10 years.

Rick

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From: "Roy Breon" <roybreon@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Prints from slide collection
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:52:14 -0500

Re: 2)  Yes, it looks like hump at Renovo.  The long building is still
standing as of summer 1998.  Not sure whether the tracks are still on the
hump though.  Others might know.

Roy Breon
Pittsford, NY
roybreon@netzero.net


-----Original Message-----
From: John H. Wright <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
To: PRR-talk@dsop.com <PRR-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 3:08 PM
Subject: [PRR] Prints from slide collection


>Six images  from the slide collection I posted about last week are now on
>the web:
>
>http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm
>
>The slides were taken at random with the exception of the Renovo shot which
>one of the members of the list wanted to see.
>
>1) J1, location unknown
>2) I1 on the hump at Renovo (I think?)
>3) L1 with auxilliary tender double heading with RS3 unit, location unknown
>4) GG1 in Tuscan red, pin stripe livery, location unkown.
>5) Fairbanks Morse FS10 switcher  (specially for Greg Martin)
>6) A pair of Baldwin BP20s in Tuscan Red single stripe livery ......
>possibly on Long Branch duty?
>
>Any information about the locations or whatever,  will be appreciated.
>
>
>Regards,
>John H. Wright
>Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
>http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Roy Breon" <roybreon@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:57:24 -0500

Brings up an interesting question about Sodus docks.  I'm remembering from
childhood visits but I don't remember any ship unloading facilities there.
Only the gigantic coal dock used to load the ships.  Anyone know?

Roy Breon
Pittsford, NY
roybreon@netzero.net


-----Original Message-----
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com <jerry@pennsyrr.com>; prr-talk@dsop.com
<prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date: Monday, March 27, 2000 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic


>In a message dated 03/27/2000 3:00:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:
>
><< I imagine eastbound coal...for power plants in Philly and perhaps New
> York...with returning empties.
>  >>
>Jerry:
>
>East bound ore for export off the Buffalo line from the ore docks in Erie
and
>south bound ore from the docks in Sodus Point.  Also coal from the same
docks.
>

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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:28:47 EST
Subject: [PRR] Existing Steel Mills - photo

Pennsy Fans:

Below is a link to my first webpage.  On it is a hot metal car sitting under 
a blast furnace.  It's my first attempt, so the picture is a little small 
(I'm limited to a 30K image).  I will refine it over time.

Enjoy.

George

http://hometown.aol.com/gpandelios/myhomepage/collection.html

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:44:06 -0500
From: Rick Nelson <rcnelson@bright.net>
Subject: [PRR] Commercial Radios

Setn this to railscan list also.  I have a friend that is a large two-way
radio dealer. I use his equipment to monitor the rairoad radios and it is
great.

Contact me off list and I will try to help you get set up.  I don't make
anything on these deals, just love radio almost as much as trains.

Part of the time used equipment is available, and new gear is not that bad.

Rick Nelson, W8PRR
rcnelson@bright.net

Luke 4:4


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:23:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] PC RAILROADER - RAILS NORTHEAST

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 DPoole17@aol.com wrote:

> I have PC RAILROADER from JANUARY 1974 to DECEMBER 1975 and I have RAILS 
> NORTHEAST from JANUARY 1976 to DECEMBER 1982.  These magazines are in good 
> condition and are excellent reference material.  They are FOR SALE.

After missing out on yet another set of these, I reiterate: it's a damn
shame these materials which are so useful for reference are so rare.

-D



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Greg Stone" <gas@fastinet.net>
Subject: [PRR] Re: Renovo Hump 
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:31:08 -0800

The building is still standing. NS tracks run immediately behind it, as did
the original PRR mainline. The scale is still in front but no rails on it.
Of the main structures at Renovo, only the roundhouse is no longer there.
The turntable pit is filled in with sand and soil. Many lesser buildings are
gone. i.e. the yard masters office and lumber sheds etc. The coaling tower
still remains and may be the only one left in Pennsylvania. It is in very
good shape and worthy of restoration.
--Greg Stone
PRRT&HS member
special interest in the Renovo Yards
always looking for information on Renovo, particularly photos


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:07:44 -0500
From: "cwhary" <cwhary@paonline.com>
Subject: [PRR] RF & P Interface

People,

Was there a working interface between the PRR and the RF & P? If so what level of involvement existed?  Any help would be greatly appreciated and thanx.

--
Charles E. Whary
--

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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/29/00
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:48:33 -0000


Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg - 1954 - Mineral Traffic
From: "Roy Breon" <roybreon@netzero.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:57:24 -0500

Roy and list,

Sodus Point was coal out only.

Al

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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:26:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "Keith B. Thompson - Sun" <thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM>
Subject: [PRR] Re: MP 54 - was LL C-liners and other PRR items


> DWa9975062@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > Andy, Doug & list - Trainstuff has their own drive with correct 8' axle
> > spacing and 36" wheels. Both trucks are powered. It will pull 2 or 3
> > trailers.
> > Side frames should fit both powered and unpowered units.
> > Dayna


The powered truck on an MP54 was either 8'8"
or 8'10" axle spacing depending on the rebuild.
The non-powered truck was 8'. i.e. the cars had
two different size trucks. Both used 36" wheels.
(I'm not sure but i think some latter cars had
8'10" trucks on both ends?)

kbt


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: MP 54 - was LL C-liners and other PRR items
> From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:12:25 -0600
> 
> Doug said:
> 
> >The ECW MP54 sideframes are intended for the Trainstuff MP54s.  Trainstuff's
> >website is www.trainstuffllc.com.
> >
> >Now, does anyone have any ideas on power trucks (since the NWSL PDTs are
> >out of
> >production for the moment)?
> 
> Would the new Bowser HO Trolley Mechanisms work?
> 
> the Specifics:
> #125100   With 26" wheels    $42.50
> #125110   With 30" wheels   $42.50
> #125120   With 34" wheels   $42.50
> 
> 6' 6" Wheel Base Power Truck
> Can motor
> Universals and drive shaft
> Gear box with bearings
> All-wheel pickup
> Bolster with screw holes for mounting geared truck
> Electric track brake side frames
> 
> Happy Rails
> Bruce

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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:27:01 -0500
From: Jason Jaquith <jaj165@psu.edu>
Subject: [PRR] I1 question

How many I1's were there?  I've heard that there were 598 of them.  Is this 
number correct?




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From: Anderson Charles L CRPH <AndersonCL@nswccd.navy.mil>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: MP 54 - was LL C-liners and other PRR items
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:40:10 -0500

Minor poratoes...

Truck dimensions were often very different between EMU's or "doodle bugs"... even more interesting were power trucks - usually of the same general design, that retained significantly larger wheels - 40" vs. 36" as an example.

Such installations afforded "shifts' in the C.G. - center of gravity, which applied great weight to the power truck for traction/adhesion. m The Reading Company was a traditional user of this novel, but, effective technique.

Chas 

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith B. Thompson - Sun [mailto:thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 10:26 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: MP 54 - was LL C-liners and other PRR items



> DWa9975062@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > Andy, Doug & list - Trainstuff has their own drive with correct 8' axle
> > spacing and 36" wheels. Both trucks are powered. It will pull 2 or 3
> > trailers.
> > Side frames should fit both powered and unpowered units.
> > Dayna


The powered truck on an MP54 was either 8'8"
or 8'10" axle spacing depending on the rebuild.
The non-powered truck was 8'. i.e. the cars had
two different size trucks. Both used 36" wheels.
(I'm not sure but i think some latter cars had
8'10" trucks on both ends?)

kbt


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: MP 54 - was LL C-liners and other PRR items
> From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:12:25 -0600
> 
> Doug said:
> 
> >The ECW MP54 sideframes are intended for the Trainstuff MP54s.  Trainstuff's
> >website is www.trainstuffllc.com.
> >
> >Now, does anyone have any ideas on power trucks (since the NWSL PDTs are
> >out of
> >production for the moment)?
> 
> Would the new Bowser HO Trolley Mechanisms work?
> 
> the Specifics:
> #125100   With 26" wheels    $42.50
> #125110   With 30" wheels   $42.50
> #125120   With 34" wheels   $42.50
> 
> 6' 6" Wheel Base Power Truck
> Can motor
> Universals and drive shaft
> Gear box with bearings
> All-wheel pickup
> Bolster with screw holes for mounting geared truck
> Electric track brake side frames
> 
> Happy Rails
> Bruce

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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:20:07 -0500
From: Dan Cupper <cupper@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1 question

Jason:

Yes, 598 is correct --

475 built by Baldwin
123 built at Altoona


Dan Cupper


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:57:51 -0500
From: Jeff Knorek <jknorek@mail.msen.com>
Subject: [PRR] PRR, PC, and CR images online

Greetings-
More photographs of PRR, PC, and CR subjects have been
added to the Lost and Found Images website. One is
even a picture of a J1 Steam locomotive (!).

You can find them at:
http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/Found/FortWayne.htm

Enjoy-

Jeff Knorek


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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Prints from slide collection
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:07:57 -0500

Tracks gone from hump in Renovo.  The track the locomotive is on was a scale
track, I assume for weighing hopper cars.  It was standing in Oct. 98, but
gutted and in pretty bad shape.  The locomotive shops (erecting hall, boiler
shop, and main machine shop) were in pretty good shape, with large gantry
cranes still in place.  Tracks still present inside, and access pits still
there with steel plates over them.  Smaller machine shop has big sections of
roof missing.  Other buildings pretty well gutted and in various states of
decay.  Coal tower still standing.  Roundhouse gone and pit filled in.  Foot
bridge over the track intact but blocked from access.  I photogaphed
everything inside and out, as I suspected NS would fence it off or tear it
down.  Owner has tried to sell the complex, but no takers.  Presumably
remote location is the issue.  Remote location and undesireability is also
presumably why it was never torn down or replaced with a K-Mart!

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII

-----Original Message-----
From: Roy Breon <roybreon@netzero.net>
To: PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Prints from slide collection


>Re: 2)  Yes, it looks like hump at Renovo.  The long building is still
>standing as of summer 1998.  Not sure whether the tracks are still on the
>hump though.  Others might know.
>
>Roy Breon
>Pittsford, NY
>roybreon@netzero.net
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John H. Wright <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
>To: PRR-talk@dsop.com <PRR-talk@dsop.com>
>Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 3:08 PM
>Subject: [PRR] Prints from slide collection
>
>
>>Six images  from the slide collection I posted about last week are now on
>>the web:
>>
>>http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/prr_pics/contents.htm
>>
>>The slides were taken at random with the exception of the Renovo shot
which
>>one of the members of the list wanted to see.
>>
>>1) J1, location unknown
>>2) I1 on the hump at Renovo (I think?)
>>3) L1 with auxilliary tender double heading with RS3 unit, location
unknown
>>4) GG1 in Tuscan red, pin stripe livery, location unkown.
>>5) Fairbanks Morse FS10 switcher  (specially for Greg Martin)
>>6) A pair of Baldwin BP20s in Tuscan Red single stripe livery ......
>>possibly on Long Branch duty?
>>
>>Any information about the locations or whatever,  will be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>John H. Wright
>>Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
>>http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>_____________________________________________
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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Weigh-in-Motion Scales
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:23:41 -0000

The other day I mentioned the WIM scales at Denholm and Morrisville and
mentioned a third one. Someone subsequently posted it as being on the
Northern Div which is correct.
I dug into the Central Region ETT No. 4 in effect 10/29/67 and found some
details under the Special Instructions. See SI 1155-B59 for the one between
Mifflin and Wall at Denholm on the Allegheny Div - located for eastward
movement on No 3 track, 4120' west of MP 155. Further instructions tell how
to proceed through the scale. See SI 1155-B62 for the scale between
McElhatten and Lane on the Northern Div one - located on Scale Running
track, 3800' east of MP 226 (at MP 225.2). Again further instructions tell
how to proceed through the scale.

Al


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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: [PRR] Icing trains enroute
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:23:44 -0000

I know awhile back there was a thread on PRR enroute icing locations. While
investigating the WIM Special Instructions I came upon a SI governing
operations at the Huntingdon (vic. MP 202.3) Icing Station on the Allegheny
Div. Its SI 1156-A11. Among other things it states 'All through cars in
arranged service trains, requiring icing, will be iced at Huntingdon.' It
then goes on the instruct the conductors of both eastward trains, and
surprising to me westward trains, that need icing how to proceed.
Although there was also an icing station at Canton, OH, I could not find any
SI pertaining to operations there.

This is an interesting subject given the great article on modeling and
prototype icing operations (albeit out west) in the latest 'RMJ.'

Al


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:27:20 -0500
Subject: [PRR] For DCC Modelers
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

I know many of you are DCC modelers. A subset of you are probably already
familiar with a web site by Allan Gartner called "Wiring For DCC".

In visiting his site recently, I read that the site was spread across two
Internet servers due to space constraints. I am pleased to announce that we
are now serving his site from our location and with plenty of space.

The site has not yet been completely uploaded and relinked internally, but
Allan is working hard at it. If you are into DCC, this is one bookmark you
should have in your browser:

    http://www.wiringfordcc.com/

Shameless related plug: all Digitrax products are on sale in our eStore at
20% off through April 15th.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://www.modelrailroadnews.net


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:52:27 -0500
From: Phil Tripician <trip7687@gate.net>
Subject: [PRR] Address Change

Please tell me how to tell you that my new e-mail address is:
ptripician@adelphia.net

    Thanks,.


    Trip

PRR-Talk wrote:

> PRR-Talk Digest - Tuesday, March 28, 2000
>
>   Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
>           by "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
>   Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
>           by "Park Varieties" <parkvarieties@provide.net>
>   Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
>           by "Drew McGhee" <drm6@psu.edu>
>   Re: [PRR] LL C-liners and other PRR items
>           by "Andy Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>
>   RE: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv
>           by "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>
>   Re: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv
>           by "Richard Wallis" <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
>   MP 54 - was LL C-liners and other PRR items
>           by "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
>   Re: [PRR] Weirton Steel
>           by "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
>   Prints from slide collection
>           by "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
>   Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
>           by "Garry" <gspear@erols.com>
>   Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
>           by "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
>   RE: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
>           by "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
>   Tower signs
>           by "Larry Reynolds" <reynoldl@gte.net>
>   PC RAILROADER - RAILS NORTHEAST
>           by <DPoole17@aol.com>
>   Re: [PRR] Tower signs
>           by "mcmahon" <radclyff@erie.net>
>   Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
>           by "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
> From: "John H. Wright" <johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:12:36 +0100
>
> Doug,
> Have you tried using the NWSL universal couplings?  They do a number of  2.4
> and a 2mm sets which come together in the same pack.  I use them for
> connecting motors to gearboxes in almost all motor / gearbox upgrades these
> days.  You have to make sure the gearbox doesn't move around, though.  A
> 'steady' bar fixing gearbox to motor usually solves this problem.
>
> Regards,
> John H. Wright
> Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
> http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
> To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
> Date: 26 March 2000 18:51
> Subject: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
>
> >
> >
> >Now, I have to build a mounting pad for the motor (out of styrene
> >strip), complete the wiring, and see if I have room to stuff in a
> >flywheel.  I'm using one of NWSL's new 1630 motor (made by someone other
> >than Sagami).  Mine has dual shafts (2mm), and I had initially hoped to
> >mount the gear directly to the motor (which would have made the gearbox
> >and motor essentially one assembly) to save space and mount the biggest
> >flywheel I could find.  However, the 142-6 gearbox has a 2.4 mm shaft,
> >which makes this impractical.  I have some bushings that would fit over
> >the 2mm motor shaft to make it 2.4mm, but I fear that this will cause
> >wobble were I to mount the worm on the bushing on the shaft.
> >
> >More on this as I progress.....
> >
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
> From: "Park Varieties" <parkvarieties@provide.net>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:30:52 -0500
>
> John,
>
> Could you elaborate a little more on the gear box "steady" and how it is
> installed?
> I have been seriously contemplating upgrades for all my brass steam to include
> the NWSL u-joints. Thanks.
>
> Frank Brua
> John H. Wright wrote:
>
> > Doug,
> > Have you tried using the NWSL universal couplings?  They do a number of  2.4
> > and a 2mm sets which come together in the same pack.  I use them for
> > connecting motors to gearboxes in almost all motor / gearbox upgrades these
> > days.  You have to make sure the gearbox doesn't move around, though.  A
> > 'steady' bar fixing gearbox to motor usually solves this problem.
> >
> > Regards,
> > John H. Wright
> > Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at:
> > http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
> > To: prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
> > Date: 26 March 2000 18:51
> > Subject: [PRR] NWSL 142-6 gearbox for Bowser G5s
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >Now, I have to build a mounting pad for the motor (out of styrene
> > >strip), complete the wiring, and see if I have room to stuff in a
> > >flywheel.  I'm using one of NWSL's new 1630 motor (made by someone other
> > >than Sagami).  Mine has dual shafts (2mm), and I had initially hoped to
> > >mount the gear directly to the motor (which would have made the gearbox
> > >and motor essentially one assembly) to save space and mount the biggest
> > >flywheel I could find.  However, the 142-6 gearbox has a 2.4 mm shaft,
> > >which makes this impractical.  I have some bushings that would fit over
> > >the 2mm motor shaft to make it 2.4mm, but I fear that this will cause
> > >wobble were I to mount the worm on the bushing on the shaft.
> > >
> > >More on this as I progress.....
> > >
> > >Doug
> > >
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> > >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
> From: "Drew McGhee" <drm6@psu.edu>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:27:23 -0500
>
> Greetings to Al and the group,
>
> There is a weigh in motion scale for mineral freight on the PRR's old
> Northern Division between Lock Haven and McElhattan (RICH). It was
> installed around the time of the PC merger and is still in use by NS.
>
> Drew R. McGhee
> Altoona, PA
> drm6@psu.edu
> http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/
>
> At 07:56 PM 03/27/2000 -0000, Al wrote:
>
> stuff deleted.
>
> >
> >Someone else said cars were not weighed (which would have implied breaking
> >the train). While the cars in a unit train may not have requiring weighing -
> >the PRR did have weigh-in-motion scales on which a complete train could be
> >weighed while enroute. I believe there were three locations, Denholm,
> >Morrisville and another, which escapes me at this time.
> >
> >In later years, I believe under Penn Central, the arranged freight schedules
> >had a special section for unit train symbols.
> >
> >Hope this clarifies some 'stuff'.
> >
> >Al
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] LL C-liners and other PRR items
> From: "Andy Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:27:37 -0500
>
> Is this an under-the-floor power truck or will all of my commuter trains
> have to have a combine or baggage car to hide the motor?
>
> Is the $125 price for a powered unit and the $75 price for the dummy?
> Regards,
>
> Andy Miller
> asmiller@mitre.org
>
> ===================================================
> DWa9975062@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Andy, Doug & list - Trainstuff has their own drive with correct 8' axle
> > spacing and 36" wheels. Both trucks are powered. It will pull 2 or 3
> > trailers.
> > Side frames should fit both powered and unpowered units.
> > Dayna
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>
> --
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: RE: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv
> From: "Andrews, Ted" <Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:41:33 -0500
>
> It was the interlocking at Calumet Park. The S.C.& S.R.R. crossed the IHB
> and Michigan Central. Unfortunately, the tower was a two story wood frame
> structure and did not possess the architectural beauty of its counterpart
> near Horseshoe Curve.  :(
>
> Ted
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PKMac1@aol.com [mailto:PKMac1@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 5:57 PM
> To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv
>
> Rick. Going by the CT1000 May 1945 pg 386, distance from Colehour 5.5 miles,
>
> S.C.& S.R.R..
> Any help? Thats all I can tell you.
>
> Pat McKinney
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] MG in ChiTermDiv
> From: "Richard Wallis" <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:43:50 -0600
>
> PKMac1@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Rick. Going by the CT1000 May 1945 pg 386, distance from Colehour 5.5 miles,
> > S.C.& S.R.R..
>
> ie-Calumet Park tower.
>
> Richard Wallis
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: MP 54 - was LL C-liners and other PRR items
> From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:12:25 -0600
>
> Doug said:
>
> >The ECW MP54 sideframes are intended for the Trainstuff MP54s.  Trainstuff's
> >website is www.trainstuffllc.com.
> >
> >Now, does anyone have any ideas on power trucks (since the NWSL PDTs are
> >out of
> >production for the moment)?
>
> Would the new Bowser HO Trolley Mechanisms work?
>
> the Specifics:
> #125100   With 26" wheels    $42.50
> #125110   With 30" wheels   $42.50
> #125120   With 34" wheels   $42.50
>
> 6' 6" Wheel Base Power Truck
> Can motor
> Universals and drive shaft
> Gear box with bearings
> All-wheel pickup
> Bolster with screw holes for mounting geared truck
> Electric track brake side frames
>
> Happy Rails
> Bruce
>
> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
> Scott-Ritchey Research Center
> 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
>
> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
>                            __
>                           /  \
>   __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________
>  |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |
>  | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
>  |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|
>  | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Weirton Steel
> From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:52:43 -0500
>
> Yeah, the old Pittsburgh.  Station Square a station instead of a mall.
> Trolleys.  Real steam boats.  Forbes Field.  The Montour Railroad.  Those
> were sure the good old days.  I suppose progress is progress, but . . . .


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From: FarbLand@aol.com
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:38:29 EST
Subject: [PRR] Timo

Anyone going to the Timonium show this weekend, I like to meet anyone from 
these lists. I'll be the guy with a limp and on saturday I'll probably be 
wearing a bright red Model Railroad Club of Buffalo T-shirt. When not 
wandering the hall I'll be at the K-Val Hobbies Table. Hope to see some of 
you there and sppend a lot of cash 
Regards Brian Carlson

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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:33:08 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings Website back up

Hello list,

I was surfing earlier tonight (29 March), and the Miracle Castings web
pages are back up.  They have no new information, but I remain hopeful
that things will work out for them.

Doug


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:47:14 -0600
From: "doug.kisala" <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] I1 question

Jason, list,

Yes.  The 790, the first I1s, was built in 1916.  Juniata built 122 more in
1918-1919.  These first 123 engines had no feedwater heaters, had hand reverse,
and no air tanks on the pilot as built.

Baldwin built 475 more during 1922-1923.  These engines had power reverse, the
BL feedwater heaters, air tanks on the pilot, passenger pilots, and extended
piston rods as built.

Doug

Jason Jaquith wrote:

> How many I1's were there?  I've heard that there were 598 of them.  Is this
> number correct?
>
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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:32:17 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Web Additions
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Busy night for me...

Added yet another Employee Timetable to the Docs page:

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/

Added three back issues of The Signal Bridge and a photo of the New Freedom
Station to the Northern Central Chapter site:

    http://prrths-ncc.pennsyrr.com

Next is an update to Larry Reynolds' layout page and photos and track plan
for Steve Hoxie's layout page. Plus, dozens of track charts courtesy of
Randy Williamson (who's been very patient since November!).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:39:45 -0500

Additionally these yellow balls were used on the 100 ton hoppers that the
PRR came out with in the early sixties. The side of the car had on one side
PRR and the other side the yellow ball. You are also correct that when they
modified them they painted a black dot in the middle of the yellow ball to
indicate that it was modified. The oversize "Shock Absorbers" placed at the
end of the bodies were at an angle from the body of the car to the frame.
There were two on each end. I am not aware that these cars were marked with
the yellow ball to indicate an air brake modification. I do know that
hoppers were marked on a vertical rib painted yellow. Perhaps these cars
were marked to indicate that they had the modification to there brake
system.

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
To: "PRR-TALK" <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>; "Garry" <gspear@erols.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Garry [mailto:gspear@erols.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 8:12 PM
> To: Alan Buchan
> Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
>
> Gary said>
> The Yellow Ball was a visual reminder to the train crews that these cars'
> ABD air brakes would release much quicker and
> with a smaller brake pipe increase that the normal (mid 1960s) AB air
> brakes.
> ---------------------------
> What you said regarding the dynamics of handling a train with ABD brakes
may
> be true and the yellow balls would certainly assist a crew in identifying
> that potential. However, the symbol was meant to show the car to be in
> special or assigned service such as unit train. This is substantiated in
> 'The Pennsy' Sep-Oct 1964 issue, page 22, article on the class H-43 cars.
As
> I recall car trucks and side bearings on the class H43 cars were
> subsequently modified at some point in time to prevent their rocking off
the
> track at certain speeds. Those cars, so modified, received a black dot
> within the center of the yellow ball.
>
> Markings on the side of a car were typically instructions to station
agents,
> yardmasters and other personnel concerned with allowable commodities,
> special load capacities as well as the use and routing of the car. Some
> markings were also used to indicate the presence of special interior load
> restraining devices and other damage free (DF) equipment. I know for
awhile
> the WM marked the all of their cars equipped with roller bearings with
> special yellow markings.
>
> Most train crews never walked or saw their entire train on the ground
before
> departing a terminal, except for a conductor or trainmen who walked the
> train observing the application and release of brakes during a terminal
> departure test. Therefore, would have not observed any cars special
> markings. A train crew's major clue as to what they were hauling was a
> consist list (or waybills) indicating number of loads and mtys and a
listing
> of all cars in the train. It would be primarily from this a conductor and
> engineman would determine the types of cars in the train and there
placement
> within the train (e.g., loads up front-mtys in rear, mtys up front-loads
in
> rear, all loads, all mtys, or whatever) and thus some clue as to what
> train-track dynamics to expect enroute. This is especially important for
the
> enginemen to know when operating over undulating terrain.
>
> BTW FWIW - In later years hoppers and hi-side gons with rotary couplers
(no
> PRR cars) were given special color markings on the rotary end of the car.
> This was to ensure that a rotary end was always coupled to a non-rotary
end
> and that two non-rotary ends were not together. If at the unloading point
> the crew noticed that two non-rotary ends were coupled, they could stop
the
> unloading process before ripping out the coupler and derailing the
trailing
> car. Handling the misaligned cars would disrupt the throughput but save a
> major rerailing operation.
>
> Al
>
>
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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:03:22 -0000

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Dibert [mailto:102016.1343@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 1:40 AM
To: Alan Buchan
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.

Wayne you said>
Additionally these yellow balls were used on the 100 ton hoppers that the
PRR came out with in the early sixties.
--------------------------------------------
Yes, that's what the entire post is about, the class H43 100 ton hoppers.
Those are the only PRR cars that had yellow balls. I don't know what you
mean be additionally?
===========================================
You also said>
The side of the car had on one side PRR and the other side the yellow ball.
------------------------------------------
This is incorrect. Both sides (left and right) had PRR reporting marks and
both sides had yellow balls.
=========================================
You went on to say>
You are also correct that when they modified them they painted a black dot
in the middle of the yellow ball to
indicate that it was modified. The oversize "Shock Absorbers" placed at the
end of the bodies were at an angle from the body of the car to the frame.
There were two on each end.
----------------------------------------
Thanx for substantiating my comment about the black dot. However, I don't
know exactly what the fix was. Perhaps you are correct.
========================================
You also said>
I am not aware that these cars were marked with the yellow ball to indicate
an air brake modification.
---------------------------------------
I agree with you they weren't - somebody else stated that and I took
exception to it.
======================================
And finally you said>
I do know that hoppers were marked on a vertical rib painted yellow. Perhaps
these cars were marked to indicate that they had the modification to there
brake system.
-------------------------------------
I don't recall any PRR hoppers being so marked. The EL did mark some of
their hopper end ribs with yellow and I think it was to indicate a higher
capacity but I'm not positive on that.

Al


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From: "Alan Buchan" <abbuchan@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:05:53 -0000

-----Original Message-----
From: Garry [mailto:gspear@erols.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 8:12 PM
To: Alan Buchan
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.

Gary said>
The Yellow Ball was a visual reminder to the train crews that these cars'
ABD air brakes would release much quicker and
with a smaller brake pipe increase that the normal (mid 1960s) AB air
brakes.
---------------------------
What you said regarding the dynamics of handling a train with ABD brakes may
be true and the yellow balls would certainly assist a crew in identifying
that potential. However, the symbol was meant to show the car to be in
special or assigned service such as unit train. As I recall the car trucks
and side bearings were subsequently modified at some point in time to
prevent their rocking off the track at certain speeds. Those cars, so
modified, received a black dot within the center of the yellow ball.

Markings on the side of a car were typically instructions to station agents,
yardmasters and other personnel concerned with allowable commodities,
special capacity as well as the use and routing of the car. Some markings
were also used to indicate the presence of special interior load restraining
devices and other damage free (DF) equipment. I know for awhile the WM also
marked the all of their cars equipped with roller bearings with special
yellow markings.

Most train crews never walked or saw their entire train on the ground before
departing a terminal, except for a conductor or trainmen who walked the
train observing the application and release of brakes during a terminal
departure test. Therefore, would have not observed any cars special
markings. A train crew's major clue as to what they were hauling was a
consist list (or waybills) indicating number of loads and mtys and a listing
of all cars in the train. It would be primarily from this a conductor and
engineman would determine the types of cars in the train and there placement
within the train (e.g., loads up front-mtys in rear, mtys up front-loads in
rear, all loads, all mtys, or whatever) and thus some clue as to what
train-track dynamics to expect enroute. This is especially important for the
enginemen to know when operating over undulating terrain.

BTW FWIW - In later years hoppers and hi-side gons with rotary couplers (no
PRR cars) were given special color markings on the rotary end of the car.
This was to ensure that a rotary end was always coupled to a non-rotary end
and that two non-rotary ends were not together. If at the unloading point
the crew noticed that two non-rotary ends were coupled, they could stop the
unloading process before ripping out the coupler and derailing the trailing
car. Handling the misaligned cars would disrupt the throughput but save a
major rerailing operation.

Al


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From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:43:06 -0500




Alan
Great way that you responded to my post.
Just a few additional comments to add.

I do know for fact that the yellow ball represented 100 Ton Hopper. I do
know for fact that the dot represented that the car had been modified. You
are right that the cars did sway and that the modification was to stop the
sway. Yes both sides of the cars are marked identical, the point I was
making was as you looked at only one side. I guess I did not describe it too
good. :(  I do remember the ribs of some NYC and B&O hoppers having one rib
painted yellow. Still don't know why. Above information verified by my uncle
who worked for PRR, PC, Conrail 40 years on the Renovo, Williamsport,
Buffalo, and Harrisburg Division during his career.

Wayne F. Dibert
102016.1343@worldnet.att.net

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Alan Buchan
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 4:03 PM
To: Wayne Dibert
Cc: PRR-TALK
Subject: RE: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Dibert [mailto:102016.1343@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 1:40 AM
To: Alan Buchan
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.

Wayne you said>
Additionally these yellow balls were used on the 100 ton hoppers that the
PRR came out with in the early sixties.
--------------------------------------------
Yes, that's what the entire post is about, the class H43 100 ton hoppers.
Those are the only PRR cars that had yellow balls. I don't know what you
mean be additionally?
===========================================
You also said>
The side of the car had on one side PRR and the other side the yellow ball.
------------------------------------------
This is incorrect. Both sides (left and right) had PRR reporting marks and
both sides had yellow balls.
=========================================
You went on to say>
You are also correct that when they modified them they painted a black dot
in the middle of the yellow ball to
indicate that it was modified. The oversize "Shock Absorbers" placed at the
end of the bodies were at an angle from the body of the car to the frame.
There were two on each end.
----------------------------------------
Thanx for substantiating my comment about the black dot. However, I don't
know exactly what the fix was. Perhaps you are correct.
========================================
You also said>
I am not aware that these cars were marked with the yellow ball to indicate
an air brake modification.
---------------------------------------
I agree with you they weren't - somebody else stated that and I took
exception to it.
======================================
And finally you said>
I do know that hoppers were marked on a vertical rib painted yellow. Perhaps
these cars were marked to indicate that they had the modification to there
brake system.
-------------------------------------
I don't recall any PRR hoppers being so marked. The EL did mark some of
their hopper end ribs with yellow and I think it was to indicate a higher
capacity but I'm not positive on that.

Al


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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:57:30 EST
Subject: [PRR] Existing Steel photo - 2nd try

Dear Pennsy Fans:

I think I did a better job this time.  Thanks for suffering through the first 
attempt.

Enjoy,

George

http://hometown.aol.com/gpandelios/myhomepage/collection.html

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:29:06 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR, PC, and CR images online

Jeff:

That photo of the J1 near Gallitzen is awesome.  One of the best and clearest 
I have seen of the locomotive.

Bob Zoeller

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From: Paul Stumpff <urr304@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:08:58 -0500

Al and list:

Some of the older hoppers [H21] that PC was still using in 1968-71 throught Greenville on E&P had a green mark, can not remember if rib or dot. I have seen where a green panel indicated that car was in MoW service, but this was the normal unit coal train. Do not remember seeing those cars in consists coming off B&LE to PRR [then PC]. Pretty much disappeared after late 1970.

Do remember the H43s rocking. Thought they were going to drop some in our backyard some days. What was wrong, too high of center of gravity? Know that problem was not evident in the lower height H39s or those ancient H21s.

Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio [formerly Greenville, PA & Niles, Ohio]


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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:50:12 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Parlor 28-1
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Who built the many Parlor 28-1's in use by the PRR, Pullman?

If so, was this a standard plan used by other railroads?

And if so, did the PRR have any deviations from the otherwise "standard"
appearance?

Prospective model designers want to know!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://www.modelrailroadnews.net


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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:31:23 -0500
From: Garry <gspear@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Parlor 28-1

Jerry Britton wrote:
> 
> Who built the many Parlor 28-1's in use by the PRR, Pullman?
> 
> If so, was this a standard plan used by other railroads?
> 
> And if so, did the PRR have any deviations from the otherwise "standard"
> appearance?
> 
> Prospective model designers want to know!!!

>> Snip

All Standard Weight (PRR term for Pullman Heavy Weight) 28-1 PRR Parlor
cars were built by Pullman to Plans 3416 or 3416A.  The were 66 cars in
this group all with Ice AC in 1950.  Some of the Plan 3416A cars were
converted to Pullman Mechanical AC by 1957.

New England Rail Service (NERS) sells a window conversion kit with good
instructions for creating a 3416 car from an AHM/IHC/Riv. 12-1 Pullman. 
The PRR had a total of 128 Standare Weight Parlor cars.  Using NERS
parts, some of these other cars can easily be converted from the 12-1
body.

I have modeled the QUEEN MARY and 10 or so other PRR Pullman Standard
Weight cars of the early 1950s.

Garry Spear

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:53:51 -0500
From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Parlor 28-1

Wasn't the roof line of PRR assigned cars different from the standard
Pullman design?  I remember having read somewhere that the raised center
portion of the roof on PRR assigned sleepers and parlors from Pullman
was wider than those for other roads or pool service.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

===================================================

Garry wrote:
> 
> Jerry Britton wrote:
> >
> > Who built the many Parlor 28-1's in use by the PRR, Pullman?
> >
> > If so, was this a standard plan used by other railroads?
> >
> > And if so, did the PRR have any deviations from the otherwise "standard"
> > appearance?
> >
> > Prospective model designers want to know!!!
> 
> >> Snip
> 
> All Standard Weight (PRR term for Pullman Heavy Weight) 28-1 PRR Parlor
> cars were built by Pullman to Plans 3416 or 3416A.  The were 66 cars in
> this group all with Ice AC in 1950.  Some of the Plan 3416A cars were
> converted to Pullman Mechanical AC by 1957.
> 
> New England Rail Service (NERS) sells a window conversion kit with good
> instructions for creating a 3416 car from an AHM/IHC/Riv. 12-1 Pullman.
> The PRR had a total of 128 Standare Weight Parlor cars.  Using NERS
> parts, some of these other cars can easily be converted from the 12-1
> body.
> 
> I have modeled the QUEEN MARY and 10 or so other PRR Pullman Standard
> Weight cars of the early 1950s.
> 
> Garry Spear
>


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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:35:10 -0500
From: Garry <gspear@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Parlor 28-1

Andy Miller wrote:
> 
> Wasn't the roof line of PRR assigned cars different from the standard
> Pullman design?  I remember having read somewhere that the raised center
> portion of the roof on PRR assigned sleepers and parlors from Pullman
> was wider than those for other roads or pool service.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andy Miller
> asmiller@mitre.org
> 
> ===================================================
>>
>>snip
>
Parlor cars and non Section cars "in general" had a wider center
section.  The narrow center section was to accomodate the upper bearth
in the closed position.  I say in general because Pullman rebuilt
equipment into different configurations.  Quite often the PRR assigned
cars were built in lots with other RR and GS assigned cars.

Garry Spear

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:37:30 -0500
Subject: [PRR] K4s #1361
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

I have been contacted by someone "on the inside" who indicates that there
will be a significant announcement tomorrow morning in Altoona regarding
funding for completion of work on PRR K4 1361.

Stay tuned!
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:53:47 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Parlor 28-1

In a message dated 3/30/2000 9:34:31 AM Central Standard Time, 
gspear@erols.com writes:

<< I have modeled the QUEEN MARY and 10 or so other PRR Pullman Standard
 Weight cars of the early 1950s. >>

Gary, I have an older Walthers supposed 28-1 Parlor.  Any comments on its 
resemblence to the Pennsy cars.  I know I followed the Walthers plan for AC 
ducts which I have been advised is probably wrong.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:04:16 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Form 109 & Assignment of Locomotives
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Form 109 contains specs for the Pennsy's fleet of locos. I have Form 109-K,
which was published in 1952. The "K" suffix indicates the release.

Does anyone know the print date of Form 109-L?

I am trying to determine if my Form 109-K was still the current version as
of 9/54.

Next question: I know there is a form number that indicates which
locomotives are assigned to which regions/divisions. Seems to me it was Form
20x or something. Couldn't find it on Mark Bej's extensive site of form
designations.

Which form number was it?

And does anyone have one circa 1954?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: "Bill Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Subject: [PRR] Staging Design
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:28:24 -0500

I'm in the design stages of my PRR WWII Renovo Division and need some input
on staging design.

My current design thoughts are as follows, and I would appreciate any
feedback or comments, as I'm sure others have gone this direction, and found
surprises - both pleasant and otherwise.

Due to a small basement, I'm designing a 3 level HO railroad to fit into a
13.5 x 18 foot space.  It will be operated mostly by one person (me), but
sometimes by me and 2-4 others.  My aisles will be narrower than I'd like
due to the space limitations.

My basic design is for a double track HO railroad, using the entire railroad
as the "helix" to get from one level to another.  The middle level will be
the yard complex at Renovo.  Bottom level will be Williamsport; top level
will include Emporium up to Keating Summit.  Each end of the railroad will
have a reverse loop, so eastbound trains arriving in Williamsport, for
example, will go from the eastbound main around the loop and back on the
westbound main.  Same at the other end.  This way I can run point to point
or continuously for visitors.

I'm planning open, active staging, using the yards at Renovo, Williamsport,
and Emporium for staging.  When a train arrives in a destination yard, it
can be parked as is, ready to continue during the next session, or be broken
down to make up a new train by a yard operator.  This way a session never
ends - trains can pick up in the next session where they left off in the
previous one.  I can run the same train in the next session, or break it
down and make up a new one.  Virtually no re-staging between sessions.  I'm
operating my small railroad this way now.

I plan to use car cards/waybills for car forwarding.  I don't plan to use
TT/TO initially, but I'd prefer not to burn any bridges.  Who knows where my
interests will go down the road?

I'd appreciate any comments/suggestions on this approach, with plusses and
minuses.  Thanks in advance for the comments!

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII



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From: "Wayne S. Betty" <cos@mycyberlink.net>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Form 109 & Assignment of Locomotives
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:41:18 -0500

Howdy All:
Jerry, are you thinking of  the MP229 Assignment of Locomotives?
I have one dated 11/1/44 - a little early for 1954.
Don't know about the 109-L,  I have 109-J 5/15/48

Cos
Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road
NMRA, Mid-East Region, Susquehanna Division 11
Home Page http://www.wsbcos.com
Train Page http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm
100 mb of web space for  $25.00 per month from 
MyCyberLink.net


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From: KEMACPRR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:25:58 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Arranged Freight Service, Unit Trains, etc.

If I remember correctly the problem with the H-43 hoppers was a combination 
of the length between truck centers and the 39' jointed rail. With low joints 
the car would start rocking as the centers would hit the low joints at the 
same time. I believe there was a critical speed in the high teens or low 
twenties where this would occur. One way to eliminate the problem was not to 
run at the critical speed but this was often impossible so the truck dampers 
were tried. 
                                                                              
Ken

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From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil
Subject: [PRR] Freight train make-up, etc.
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:43:51 -0800

Hi all,  I have been talking with Al Buchan off-line on this subject, and
have exhausted our collective knowledge on this subject/area.  Maybe some of
you can add a great deal to our knowledge base.
   Does anyone know the  1) frequency of occurrence,  2) train make-up (avg
# of cars, motive power, type of freight, customer destinations, etc.),  3)
routing,  and any other interesting info, on the following freight trains:
PT5 Pitcairn to Pgh 30th St.
PT61 Pitcairn to Pgh 16th St. (where IS 16th St.?)
MA50 Pitcairn to Shire Oaks
YR2 Pitcairn to Uniontown
PT4 Pgh 30th St. to Pitcairn
PT60 Pgh 16th St. to Pitcairn
PT3 Pgh 30th St. to Pgh 43rd St. (where is 43rd St.???)
ED45 Pgh 43rd St. to Conway
PT2 Pgh 43rd St. to Pgh 30th St.
HS1 Shire Oaks to Ashtabula
SO1 Shire Oaks to Buffalo
SC5, SC7, SC9  Shire Oaks to Conway
ED57  Thomson to Conway

   I imagine the Shire Oaks to X trains were largely coal, but I have not
seen any freight train consists from this period for this area to confirm
the make-up.  Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Elden Gatwood

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:59:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight train make-up, etc.

>  Hi all,  I have been talking with Al Buchan off-line on this subject, and
>  have exhausted our collective knowledge on this subject/area.  Maybe some of
>  you can add a great deal to our knowledge base.
>     Does anyone know the  1) frequency of occurrence,  2) train make-up (avg
>  # of cars, motive power, type of freight, customer destinations, etc.),  3)
>  routing,  and any other interesting info, on the following freight trains:
>  PT5 Pitcairn to Pgh 30th St.
>  PT61 Pitcairn to Pgh 16th St. (where IS 16th St.?)

I would assume 16th would be in the Strip District 
and

>  PT3 Pgh 30th St. to Pgh 43rd St. (where is 43rd St.???)
43rd would be in Lawrenceville... so my best guess would put both of these on
AVRR...


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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:12:17 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Parlor 28-1

In a message dated 03/30/2000 8:55:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< Who built the many Parlor 28-1's in use by the PRR, Pullman?

Pullman 1927  PUrchased from Pullman in 1945
 
 If so, was this a standard plan used by other railroads?  Was a standard 
pullman company car so maybe but I have no definite information


 
 And if so, did the PRR have any deviations from the otherwise "standard"
 appearance?
  >>

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:22:43 -0500 (EST)
From: bubbles@visi.net
Subject: [PRR] 28-1 parlors


 Hi All...

  I can't remember if its similar,but i built the Pullman built
  (1926)solarium parlor "Trimount" (PRR no.7033) (former Burlington
  Bridge). I also used a Rivarossi 12-1 car and the NERS parts.
  This was also one of the cars Pullman cars sold to the PRR
  after WWII. You might be able to see it in one of my layout
  pictures at Jerry's site.


  I had seen the real car at Baltimore during the seventies
  parked on one of the old sleeper tracks at the station
  in M of W service. Although painted yellow and with some of its
  windows covered over,it still had all its solarium windows
  intact.

                                Til Later
                                Hank Mummert


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From: DWSNRHS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:19:50 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] 28-1 parlors

Interesting comment by Hank Mummert about his model of the "Trimount" - 
ex-PRR No. 7033 and former Burlington Bridge.  I photographed this car in the 
late 60's at Hollidaysburg, Pa. where it was whitelined.  Never learned final 
disposition.  At that time the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS had just formed 
and had hoped to save this car but were unsuccessful. Now, where are the 
photos?

Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS will re-attempt 32 years later by acquiring the 
sun parlor lounge Union League Club from Altoona Railroader's Memorial 
Museum.  Plans call for a cosmetic restoration only, but this will be better 
than MofW Yellow.

David Seidel
Altoona Pa.

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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:06:53 -0500
From: Garry <gspear@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] 28-1 parlors

DWSNRHS@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Interesting comment by Hank Mummert about his model of the "Trimount" -
> ex-PRR No. 7033 and former Burlington Bridge.  I photographed this car in the
> late 60's at Hollidaysburg, Pa. where it was whitelined.  Never learned final
> disposition.  At that time the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS had just formed
> and had hoped to save this car but were unsuccessful. Now, where are the
> photos?
> 
> Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS will re-attempt 32 years later by acquiring the
> sun parlor lounge Union League Club from Altoona Railroader's Memorial
> Museum.  Plans call for a cosmetic restoration only, but this will be better
> than MofW Yellow.
> 
> David Seidel
> Altoona Pa.
> 
More interesting is Wayner's "Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman
Cars" page 184.  Plan 3964 lot 4965 Burlington Bridge - 5/37 to TRIMOUNT
12/45 LTP by PRR, #7033 added; 10/56 WFL: to buffet-bar car 1120. (WFL =
Withdrawn From Lease).  It would be very nice to see a picture of the
car in whiteline status.  Wayner is not always correct, but most of the
time he is.

The car UNION LEAGUE CLUB - Plan 3989A. Lot 6274 - was/is not a Parlor
car.  Is is an 8 Section, Buffet, Sun Room sleeper.  Maybe the interior
has been modified over the years to that configuration, but in PRR
service it was a sleeper.  Accounting number 8628.  Again interior
photos would clear up any confusion.

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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:07:21 -0500
From: Garry <gspear@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [PRR] 28-1 parlors

DWSNRHS@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Interesting comment by Hank Mummert about his model of the "Trimount" -
> ex-PRR No. 7033 and former Burlington Bridge.  I photographed this car in the
> late 60's at Hollidaysburg, Pa. where it was whitelined.  Never learned final
> disposition.  At that time the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS had just formed
> and had hoped to save this car but were unsuccessful. Now, where are the
> photos?
> 
> Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS will re-attempt 32 years later by acquiring the
> sun parlor lounge Union League Club from Altoona Railroader's Memorial
> Museum.  Plans call for a cosmetic restoration only, but this will be better
> than MofW Yellow.
> 
> David Seidel
> Altoona Pa.
> 
More interesting is Wayner's "Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman
Cars" page 184.  Plan 3964 lot 4965 Burlington Bridge - 5/37 to TRIMOUNT
12/45 LTP by PRR, #7033 added; 10/56 WFL: to buffet-bar car 1120. (WFL =
Withdrawn From Lease).  It would be very nice to see a picture of the
car in whiteline status.  Wayner is not always correct, but most of the
time he is.

The car UNION LEAGUE CLUB - Plan 3989A. Lot 6274 - was/is not a Parlor
car.  Is is an 8 Section, Buffet, Sun Room sleeper.  Maybe the interior
has been modified over the years to that configuration, but in PRR
service it was a sleeper.  Accounting number 8628.  Again interior
photos would clear up any confusion.

Garry Spear

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:24:36 EST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight train make-up, etc.


16th street was the receiving location for the produce yards.

43rd was the original AVRR yard, engine and car shop facilities.  

Rich Orr

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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:51:55 -0500
From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>
Subject: [PRR] Delmarva info

I am looking for information on the Delmarva Division in the 50's--or

actually anytime back to and including the NYP&N.  In particular, I want
a copy of the  article about the Chesapeake Bay Car floats  that is
alledged to to be in ??Spring 1990 Keystone which is no longer available
fromn the PRRT&HS.  
I also would like any Delmarva Division employee timetables (I have
none, but several Chesapeake Regionals) and the relevant sections from
the 1923 CT1000E lsit of stations and sidings (I am unable to down load
from Jerry's site and can't use the CD he offers.) 



Please contact me off line if you can help.  I haven't got any thing to

swap but would purchase or accept copies (which I will be happy to pay
postage and copying costs)   thanks, JimMcDaniel

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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:49:04 -0500
Subject: [PRR] K4s #1361 Announcement!!!
From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

The costs of restoring K4s #1361 to operating status has now been fully
funded. The press release follows. You can download a complete 10 page Adobe
Acrobat Press Kit from the main page of "Keystone Crossings":

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com


State Grant Assures Future for K4s #1361
Path Cleared for Full Restoration of Official State Steam Locomotive

Governor Tom Ridge this morning released $600,000 for the full restoration
and return to service of the Stateıs Official Steam Locomotive. The
announcement was made this morning by Representative Rick Geist (R-Altoona).
The grant is part of the Department of Community and Economic Developmentıs
(DCED) Community Revitalization Program.

Museum Executive Director R. Cummins McNitt says the support from the
Commonwealth comes at a critical time for the Altoona Railroaders Memorial
Museum ­ owner of the locomotive. ³The restoration process was on the verge
of shutdown due to lack of funding. We have been working tirelessly with our
Board and a group of local banks to avert the need to layoff the crew at
Steamtown and return this magnificent artifact to mothballs. This news comes
at the best possible time. We have received great cooperation from Keystone
Financial, Hollidaysburg Trust, Mellon Bank, Laurel Bank and Central Bank.²

The Pennsylvania Railroad donated the K4s #1361 to the City of Altoona in
June of 1957 after more than two million miles of rail and passenger
service. For nearly 30 years, the locomotive was on display at the Horseshoe
Curve National Historic Landmark. In 1985, under the leadership of
Representative Rick Geist, the K4s #1361 was towed from the Horseshoe Curve
to the Juniata Locomotive Shops where a combination of paid and volunteer
labor began work to return the locomotive to service.

During 1987 and 1988, large numbers of residents and railfans supported
several excursion trips on non-Conrail short-lines in the region. In 1988,
during a return trip from
York, PA, catastrophic failure of a main bearing and drive axle ended the
renewed operating status.

Large scale, professional restoration of the K4s #1361 was initiated in 1992
with a $420,000 grant from the Southwestern Pennsylvania Heritage
Preservation Commission. In May of 1996, the Museum created a partnership
with the University of Scranton and Steamtown National Historic Site. The
locomotive and associated parts were then moved to Steamtown. The
restoration process is currently 60% complete.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk"
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For Brass Enthusiasts (under development)
    http://www.brasstrains.net
For Dealers and Manufacturers
    http://www.modelrailroadnews.net


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:37:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s #1361 Announcement!!!

Jerry,

     It was also announced that Gov. Ridge is pledging state  money for
the  video of the K4 restoration and the K4's trip back back to Altoona
once it is finished, which will probably a hefty fee itself.....Gary


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From: "lew matt" <lmatt@alltel.net>
Subject: [PRR] former PRR trackage
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:38:03 -0500

Hey guys:

Check out this news article on CSX track work.

http://www.msnbc.com/local/rtpa/4439.asp

Lew

White Buck Farm <white.buck.farm@alltel.net> is a certified organic grower.
We market a wide selection of all natural jams, jellies, pickles, dried
fruits and vegetables and herbs.  E-mail your USPS address to us for our
current price list.  White Buck Farm is located in Greene County,
Pennsylvania, USA



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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:59:48 -0500
From: Andy Miller <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] former PRR trackage

Sounds more like former RF&P (CSX, VRE, and Amtrak) and B&O (Amtrak
DC-Chicago)track.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

===================================================

lew matt wrote:
> 
> Hey guys:
> 
> Check out this news article on CSX track work.
> 
> http://www.msnbc.com/local/rtpa/4439.asp
> 
> Lew
> 
> White Buck Farm <white.buck.farm@alltel.net> is a certified organic grower.
> We market a wide selection of all natural jams, jellies, pickles, dried
> fruits and vegetables and herbs.  E-mail your USPS address to us for our
> current price list.  White Buck Farm is located in Greene County,
> Pennsylvania, USA
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".

--


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:13:31 EST
Subject: [PRR] Ore trains (again) and K4 whistles

Appropos of the recent discussions on mineral traffic patterns, I was in the 
"library" reading David Morgan's and Phillip Hastings "The Mohawk that 
refused to abdicate, and other tales" for the first time in a long time.
Two things struck me:
1. Morgan describes a "Great Circle Route"  for the ore cars (H21s and H25s). 
 The 1956 train he covers is bringing 90 cars and 9000 tons of ore from the 
port at Erie to a connection with the Lehigh Valley for Bethlehem steel. He 
says the cars then will travel empty to either Baltimore or Philadelphia to 
pick up import ore, then deliver it over the hill to Johnstown steel mills.  
The empties from  there complete the circle by
heading for Erie.
2.  He notes that by this time the banshee whistles on the I1's have been 
replaced by whistles from K4's.

I am well aware of the poetic license sometime taken at that time (David was 
a heck of a writer), but thought it might be of interest and see if anyone 
can confirm.

Also, about when did I1's begin to get the passenger whistles?

Bob Zoeller

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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:48:26 EST
Subject: [PRR] Re: Freight Train Make-up

In a message dated 3/31/00 1:11:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
PRR-Talk@dsop.com Elden writes:

<< PT61 Pitcairn to Pgh 16th St. (where IS 16th St.?) >>

If memory serves me correctly, 16th street has a bridge across the Allegheny.

George

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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:03:39 -0500
From: Patrick James Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Freight Train Make-up



GPandelios@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 3/31/00 1:11:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> PRR-Talk@dsop.com Elden writes:
> 
> << PT61 Pitcairn to Pgh 16th St. (where IS 16th St.?) >>
> 
> If memory serves me correctly, 16th street has a bridge across the Allegheny.

Yes it does. Built in 1936. At the north end is the Heinz plant and you
go under the Conemaugh line. At the south end you go over the PRR's old
(and no longer existent) yard in the Strip District. Go two more lights
south and you are facing the old Pennsy mainline.

Patrick

-- 
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of
the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a
patent yet." 
   -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky
PRRT&HS #6713
============================================================================

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Date: 31 Mar 00 23:41:01 EST
From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." <tvpete@usa.net>
Subject: [PRR] PRR silverliners

About a year ago I found a site on the web, under SEPTA Roster, which listed
all of the Silverliners inherited from PC and PRR. I can no longer find this
site, is it gone or in a new location?  Can anyone help?

____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1

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