From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:58:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. Al,. I[ve been making this point for years. Go into the financial pages 90 years ago and you won't find a reference to the PFtW&CRWCO or the Fort Wayne System. All refenence to the co0mpany operating train s over these lines iis the Pennsylvania Co., shortened to P Co. in somepapers headline styles. LIke wise the financialpages don't mention Pittsburgh, Ciincinnati, Chicago & SSt. Louiis RR Co. or the PCC&StLRRCo.Associated Press sstyle applied to thisroad would have Paahandle Route on first reference cut to Pnahandle on all subsequent references. Everything slse but Pennsylvannia Co andthe Panhandle arerailfan construcitons. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:23:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on P.Co. vs. PRR (long) /Dan, To amplify my last posT, the primary financial pages I refer to are those in the New York Times. The P Co./Pennsylvania Co. and Panhande Route were trade names like Milwaukee Road, Cotton Belt and Frisco When I write histoRY, which I'm doing more and more, I try to be as histiorically accurate as possible.As one writing buddy and much mmore accomplished author than I says, "Why do the research if ya aiin't gonna do it right. If the informatiion isn;t accuraate, it's nmeaningless." Just call me a littkle anal on this. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 05:40:13 -0700 Usually, if a train were sold out, you found other accomodations. However, if there was enough demand, the train would run in several sections. The NYC once ran the 20th Century Limited in 7 sections in the 1920's. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:35 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger train question >In reading it appears that nearly all trains had fixed consists. Did the PRR >ever vary train consists? For example, the Broadway Limited was app. 8 cars. >If one nights demand exceeded the accomadations available would they add cars >or turn away business? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:47:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question If the Pennsy wanted the business bad enough, they would have either added cars to the Broadway Limited or operate the train in two or more sections as New York Central did the Century, which often ran as many as six sections during heavy travel periods. Turning away business would have made the railroad look bad in the public's eyes and the Pennsy was concerned about its image with the public and wanted to maintain a good image. Accommodating the travel demand as best as the railroad could was a key to this. Other railroads might have gotten away with it, but a railroad as well-known as the Pennsylvania would have been left with one hell of a black eye. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:59:47 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Modeling Chris, >After a drought of PRR articles in the model railroad press we have a >bonanza. We had the L1 article, the I1 in Feb MR, the GSh gondola >article in RMC, and now the March MR arrives and there on the cover is >an O scale Horseshoe Curve Layout with a K$ working upgrade and 2 hippos >drifting down. Well, you would think that the K4 was working up and the I-1s drifting down, but one of the compromises that Mr. Rappe made was the reversal of the grade...and the direction of traffic...thus, those hippos are really WESTBOUND, going uphill. We all make choices, and he is obviously not completely happy with his as the article states that his next layout will have the curve in the correct orientation. I personally find reorientation of known geographical features to be very jarring. >The article opens with a 5 column photo showing a J, two >K4's (one in 1940 streamline) and an I1 on the curve. Ed Rappe of Va. >is the modeler. Almost makes you want to go into O scale(if your not >already in it). The modeling is spectacular, and one photo shows very nicely how a shelf layout need only be barely wide enough for the tracks, with very nicely painted backdrops. Also to be commended is the attempt to model each locomotive on a specific prorotype! Of course, 1500 sq feet is a nice layout space, but it does make you wonder what he could have done in Ken McCorry's space ... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:02:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 Nose As I've said, I've not seen pictures of a T1 with a door cut in the side of the smokebox, but this could be interpreted as a quick and dirty way to avoid unbolting the nose of an early T1 to get at the smokebox faster. That is the conclusion that I have come to after much thought. The door is on the left side behind the nose handrail and is very plain once you know it is there. It dawned on me that since there is no external latch mechanism for the door there is no external latch mechanism for the swing away sheet metal nose necesitating some shop guy to wiggle his way into the nose to unbolt it. I would never make it at my size! No wonder shop forces hated streamlining. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:41:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question Adding cars or adding sections to a train were both used. Consists also varied by day of the week and season. In the case of the Broadway where on-time service was of paramount importance and therefore ability to maintain speed was also important, sections would be added rather than cars. The Broadway was designed to run with K4s locomotives at top speed. Additional weight would have severely hampered the ability to meet the "advertised". So sections would have been added. Other less time sensitive trains would have had minimum number of cars added. Again if the ability to maintain schedule was hampered sections would be added. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:14:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: 1950s industries in Allegheny County Many thanks to Derrick Brashear, Ron Dugas, Vagel Keller, Brian Brooks, Kevin Trichtinger, Rich Orr, Elden Gatewood, and Mark Evans for their help with the Allegheny County industries question recently. (They are now enjoying the latest release of our State of Pennsylvania industries database.) This is such a helpful news group. Thanks to you guys, and to all the others who share information here. Lee Rainey 6009 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:13:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question In a message dated 02/01/2000 6:49:17 AM Central Standard Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << Usually, if a train were sold out, you found other accomodations. However, if there was enough demand, the train would run in several sections. The NYC once ran the 20th Century Limited in 7 sections in the 1920's. >> I wonder if, in the Pennsy's case, specifically for the Broadway, they didn't just steer the customer to the General, leaving an hour earlier, I believe (my CRS disease is rampant this morning and I am at work so can't check). My understanding was that they kept the General a top train to meet the Central competition, the Central having ordered enough sets of the Century to run two sections consistently. I am talking about the lightweight era, now. I have always thought of the General informally as the "Advance Broadway". The above thoughts only apply to unpredicted traffic upsurges; holidays and such would involve extra cars and sections, if need be. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:10:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Curious Question!!! List, I have several last questions concerning the model of the PRR HH-1, the x-N&W Y-3. The LifeLike Proto 2000 model came with molded on Roanoke Builders plates. I removed these with the intention of replacing them with the common PRR Oval Builders Plates that were used when the Pennsy made the make over to the HH-1 class. I am still in the search mode for HO scale builders plates for the HH-1. I thought Schukyill Division made some but evidently not. There may have been HH-1 builders plates made by the late John Stewert. These came in a sheet of brass etched plates. The sheet contained various class loco plates. Does anyone on this list have a sheet of these and are willing to part with the 2 HH-1 plates? I also have this question on my question list and it also concerns the HH-1 builders plates. As we know this loco was built in the N&W's Roanoke Shops. When the Pennsy replaced those builders plates with the PRR Oval builders plates, did the Pennsy cast in the Roanoke Shops words again or did they cast in Altoona or Juniata Shops? My guess is Altoona Shops. Any comments? Thanks,....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:57:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Regarding the HH-1 and it's builders plates. Why would the PRR bother to change the plates ? Is there any proof that they did ? Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:13:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Ken, A little correction on my part here but my question still stands. I stated that the Y3's were Roanoke built. They were not, they were built by Alco. As delivered the Y3 had the rectangular Alco builders plate. Just as the Proo 2000 model. When seen in Pennsy service they are seen with the Oval PRR plate. There are plenty of photos in PP3 that show this. Pages 78 and 79. That is part of my question, WHY would the PRR change it if the PRR didn't build it? Another little typo in my orignal post. I said Altoona Shops instead of Altoona Works....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:00:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! In a message dated 02/01/2000 2:09:56 PM Central Standard Time, KEMACPRR@aol.com writes: << Regarding the HH-1 and it's builders plates. Why would the PRR bother to change the plates ? Is there any proof that they did ? >> According to the NJ International book on the USRA 2-8-8-2s, 5 of the Pennsy units were built by Alco (rectangular plate) and one by Baldwin (round plate). I guess by S. Holmes inductive reasoning, one could conclude that the oval plates in the photos were Altoona plates. The Altoona plates would have had the PRR class on them--don't know what else was on them. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:13:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General The question of fixed consists, and therefore fixed capacity, is indeed an interesting operational question. I recall the late 50's and early 60's, when my family was still making our twice annual journeys from Minnepolis to Philley. By then there were enough of us that there was no way for my dad's mailman salary to pay for Pullman, but coachs had better veiwing, so as a young railfan I certainly didn't mind. The train of choice was the General, a fine train that even carried a COACH observation, as I recall. Seems like about half the summer trips were always a bit up in the air, as the train was often sold out, leaving the much inferior Admiral as the default accomodation. That train's later departure also necessitated a lot longer lay over in Chicago, turning a twenty three hour trip into more like 27 or 28 hours. Every time the reservations filled out there'd be a few days of mild anxiety while the Pennsy debated over adding another coach or turning away the business, but almost every time the old home town railroad would come up with another P85. Good thing, too, as more than once the General would stage a race with the NYC out of Englewood, ala Broadway/20th Century. Our EP22's must have been faster, as I clearly recall a pair of really hard working two-tone grey Central passenger geeps gradually being passed. Another time I was awake too early, wandered into the Baltimore coach and ran up against the folding gate, watching the rest of the train getting smaller . Luckily that car got shoved back and a kindly crewman led me back to the "Philadelphia" cars. Kinda scary when you're ten or twelve. Good days back then for passenger trains. Amtrak sure ain't the same. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:28:12 EST Subject: Re: [ldsig] Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General In a message dated 02/01/2000 3:18:41 PM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << The train of choice was the General, a fine train that even carried a COACH observation, as I recall >> Sounds right. Before 1948, no observation. After 1948, while it was all-Pullman, it had the Pullman observation off the 1938 Broadway, skirts and all. In the time era you mention, it was probably merged with the Trailblazer and had its coach observation. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:30:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General It was late 1967 when the General was combined with the Broadway into a coach-Pullman train adopting the Broadway name, but using the G eneral's numbers. As for Amtrak, we should be grateful that there are passenger trains at all. The very same Congress that gave these huge subsidies to the railroads" competitors seem to want to destroy what is left. They were well on their way to destroying the railroad industry in the 1970s. No wonder our transportation is all screwed up. T he airways are overburdened with too many planes and the highways too congested. Shift a substantial portion of this passenger and freight traffic back on to the trains and much of the problem is solved. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:39:53 EST Subject: Re: [ldsig] Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General The General was combined with the Broadway in late 1967 and adopted the Broadway name but retained its train numbers, thus making the Broadway a coach-pullman train. This after an earlier combination with the Trailblazer. It was one of several remaining trains on the New York-Chicago run, the others being the Pennsylvania and Manhattan Limiteds. The Admiral was a New York to St. Louis train, but may have had a Chicago section for a time. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:04:26 EST Subject: Re: [ldsig] Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General Thanks for the reply Jim, but far as I know the Admiral was always a Chicago train, and even carried West Coast through cars for a spell. Looking at a 1952 Guide, it had a San Francisco 10-6 that alternated between C&NW-UP-SP and Q/D&RGW/WP. (That would have been between the Cal Zephyr and Frisco Overland).Westbounf that car ran on the PA LTD. Perhaps you're thinking of the American? Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:17:23 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question List: Perhaps this is not a good thing to bring up, but... I recall reading that the "Broadway" was always a lesser used train than the "20th Century," and that periodically during steam days there was talk of discontinuing this expensive vanity operation. If so, there would have been little reason to worry about second sections except on rare occasions. True or false? Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:59:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! In a message dated 2/1/00 1:24:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << When the Pennsy replaced those builders plates with the PRR Oval builders plates, did the Pennsy cast No direct knowledge but my guess would be that they cast in the original builder's name and the original builder's sequence numbers Why did they do it and why do I think they did it this way? Because that's what they did with every other engine on the premises - Like U.P.S. they refused to have builders ads on the engines - No square round or diamond plates, only PRR oval Here's a follow up question: when the Pennsy sold an engine did they remove the ovals ? Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:25:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Dick, A good place to check to see if the Pennsy removed their plates before selling off the locos is the 2-8-2's they sold to ATSF and Lehigh ???? and the 4-4-2's that went to the Monongehelia RR. I remember seeing photos of a 2-8-2 in ATSF but can't recall where. Hopefully the builders plate is visble in those photos. Not to get to far off my original posting but check out page 117 of Pennsy Power 3. There is an N2sa with 3, count them, 3 builders plates. I see an Alco. PRR and another possibly saying Brooks. I assume the 2 were removed later and only the Pennsy Oval remaining.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:32:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Part 2 Dick, Here is a quick answer to your part of the question. I found a photo of an x-PRR K-3 that was sold to the N&W as #500. It shows the PRR Oval plate still attached and no other plates visible. The picture is in the book, Norfolk & Western Steam, The last 25 years.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:12:47 EST Subject: [PRR] THE BIG RED SUBWAY One of my favorite "Trains" articles of all times was by John Barringer "The professional iconoclast" when he wrote the one pager, inside the back cover, He talked about riding trains during WW 2 - Out of New York the NYC would run scheduled trains - perhaps several sections - but would tell folks "that's it - come back tomorrow" The Pennsy, dispatched train after train and it seemed like the crowd on the platform never diminished. The station crews kept telling the paying customers, as a matter of pride, "be patient we won't leave anyone behind" kept pulling equipment out of the coach yards. It might be an old commuter car, he wrote, or a Jim Crow coach purloined from a southern line or even a converted box car with rattan seats but everyone rode - some who couldn't wait sat on their suitcases and duffel bags...... This tradition continued even into the 1960's Returning to Ohio from Christmas break in my College days - When snow closed all the airports from Denver to New York I thought I'd be stuck in Chicago, for sure. The PRR kept adding cars and locomotives to outbound trains and before I knew it I was on a "College Car" an old "tourist" Pullman that reeked like a museum - opened only on Saturdays, but I was on my way, through the blizzard and the darkness, back to Alliance, Ohio. (Mount Union College) One of my seatmates "beefed" about the low head room and the knee to knee seating - I explained that it was a Pullman car. One of the girls had some sort of tools with her skis and we soon found that the mattresses were still in place, in the overhead and, in less time than it takes to tell about it, we'd made up all the bunks (no linen, of course) and were sleeping two to each single bed. The Conductor smiled and shook his head at the ingenuity of the "kids" -"I probably should charge you extra" he joked "who's idea was this?" When I fessed up and told him that my Grandfather was a PRR Conductor, he was very nice - he probably thought he'd have trouble with us. It was probably the greatest train ride of my life - I spent the night curled up with a very nice young woman who got off the train, mid morning, in Ada, Ohio (Ohio Northern University) Wish there was more to it than that, I never saw her again.... If anyone is wondering if anything else happened - remember that this was the 1960's, the Pullman curtains were long gone - and the steam lines were barely reaching our car, at the end of the train (We were all wearing almost everything we had ! ) Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:18:06 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] To Font, or Not to Font, That is the Question Greetings to Rick, Fred, and the List: Have been reading the discussion of font/typeface and thought it might be pertinent to note the origin of the word "font" and its relationship to this topic. As someone who's old enough to have actually worked at a newspaper that used hot lead (actually an alloy, I believe) in production, the word -- and its usage as described by Fred B. -- makes sense to me. In linotype operation, metal was melted and forced into molds of each individual letter of a headline, story, caption, or whatever, to cool. This had to be done for everything that was printed in a newspaper (or book, magazine, or whatever). Because the liquefied metal was injected, the process was like a fountain -- which is the English translation of the French word font (just as mountain is the equivalent of mont). When the metal cooled and solidified and created an entire stack of lines of type cast to a given column width, they were taken to the next step in the process -- page composition. And there were several more steps in production beyond that that are beyond our topic here. It all seems like chisel-and-stone technology to us now that millions of people have laser or inkjet printers sitting on their desks. But back then, thousands of newspapers and many thousands more job shops did business this way every day, edition after edition. Think of the immense amount of hot metal it would take to put out a Sunday New York Times. After each day's newspaper was completed, the type was melted down and the process started all over again the next day. In the newspaper setting, we would look at galley proofs -- a paper impression taken of the line of just-cast type -- and mark corrections. If something was amiss such as an italic letter where it wasn't supposed to be, or a bold letter that was supposed to be normal weight, we'd circle it and send it back to the composing room with the notation "WF" -- for Wrong Font. There wasn't an equivalent Wrong Typeface notation, -- we'd simply write the name of the correct typeface -- Bodoni Bold, etc. Perhaps because of having seen the printing/composition process firsthand, I've always felt that the word "font" did not properly describe what we see when we describe or discuss the lettering on, say, the side of a P70. <=obligatory PRR content. By the way, when I observed the fonts being cast in the composing room, it was often while I was on my way to the rear window of the Harrisburg Patriot-News to check out which GG1s were parked outside at the west end of Harrisburg station.<=obligatory PRR content #2 in case #1 was not enough. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com John 10:10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:38:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question In a message dated 2/2/00 9:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << I'm also curious as to why this would be: psychologically, why did people prefer the Century to the Broadway? The Broadway was considered a "Philadelphia" train by New Yorkers - the psychology was that by going to Philadelphia FIRST - they were actually going out of their way, EVEN THOUGH the Pennsy route was actually many miles shorter. New Yorkers invented the concept of "the flyover zone" even before they flew, regularly. REMEMBER also the Philadelphia executives who named the train were not overly sensitive to the "New Yawkers" either .The train was originally "The Broad Way Limited" - named for the beautiful broad way which ran through the "Main Line" suburbs of Philadelphia - it was only later that it occurred to them that there was a street in Manhatten, by that name. ALSO - there was that thing about "The Waterlevel Route - you can sleep" The Central Trains actually had to move faster, to make the same schedule, but the Pennsy had to keep adding locomotives all the way to Altoona to blast the trains up over the Curve. It would have been great fun for a rail fan, but not for a businessman who wanted to sleep - And FINALLY the Central trip began with the beautiful scenery up the Hudson - the Pennsy trip began by going "down the tubes" The daylight portion of the trip was very heavy on the Marshes (Swamps) Mills and burning garbage dumps of "The Garden State" I suppose there are some beautiful spots in New Jersey, but few, if any are visible from the Pennsy Main Line.... That's what you get when you offer a nut and bolt guy an opportunity to do "Psychology" - Dick Ross Cleveland Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] To Font, or Not to Font, That is the Question Date: Wed, 2 Feb 100 17:02:29 -0500 (EST) Dan Cupper scribit: > Because the liquefied metal was > injected, the process was like a fountain -- which is the English translation of > the French word font (just as mountain is the equivalent of mont). This got me thinking. I had looked it up once before, and frankly, what I really need is the OED [== Oxford English Dictionary] entries, which I cannot get on-line, but which I've asked a friend to get for me. Nonetheless. Stating that fountain was the English translation of a French word font struck me as incorrect. Those who know me may know that I'm a bit of a student of French and English, including the linguistic history of both, and to a lesser extent, a student of German as well. But I'm rambling once again. My Petit Larousse confirms that English "fountain" == French "fountaine" (feminine). Lines Westerners (whether born-and-bred or adopted) may know of Bellefontaine (Ohio), which is a Big Place on the NYC (CCC&StL) and thus does not get me the PRR content I need for this post. My recollection (which awaits confirmation via OED) is that English "font" is an archaic equivalent of "fountain" which, nevertheless, is still rarely used in lay speech: "a font of knowledge", etc. Its use among movable-type printers, I would argue, would fall under the category of trade-specific speech, which is a whole different animal. I can provide several examples of words from the medical side which, in the medical writing, have retained an older sense/meaning, whereas their lay use is something quite different: embarassment, insult, compromise, toilet (as in "good pulmonary toilet"). Most intriguing, however, is the next entry in my dictionary: fonte ... f[eminine]: melting; smelting; casting; thawing [neige [snow]]; cast iron; fount (typogr.) So it looks like fonte --> font AND fontaine --> fountain --> font ... a process not unknown in English, though not one that consistently produces a matching _spelling_ in addition to the matching _pronunciation_. Since I cannot find any other PRR content to include, let me just say that I stand now only 2 diagrams away from completing the Chicago-area interlocking diagrams. The Panhandle page at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_log_chi_main.html is little changed; however, the Fort Wayne page at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_ftw_chi_main.html has had wholesale replacements of the diagrams refereced thereon, the old noisy diagrams having been very substantially cleaned up; and finally, the Chicago branches page at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_chi_branch.html has had many new diagrams added and much better documentation added, for which I have Andre Kristopans, Richard Wallis, Al Buchan, and Bob Poortinga to thank, as well as John Cooper for doing the first (and major) map cleanup work. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:15:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Y-3 Speaking of the Proto 2000 Y-3 does anyone know of a source that still has any to purchase??? Harold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:54:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question In a message dated 00-02-01 08:00:11 EST, GenJim833@aol.com writes: << Turning away business would have made the railroad look bad in the public's eyes >> But, in those days, patrons seeking space on a sold-out Broadway wouldn't be "turned away" in the sense that they would be today on Amtrak's one-train-per-day schedules. They would just be directed to the General, which ran within an hour of the Broadway. I believe that the PRR seldom, if ever, ran following sections of the Broadway after the streamlined equipment came. And I sometimes wonder what the trip was like for those who rode 4th and 5th sections of the 20th Century. No barbershop, probably no observation car, certainly lots of yellow signals due to the previous section closely ahead. It might even be enough to induce the passenger to try Penn Station the next time! Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:06:29 -0600 From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] Re: HH1 Actually yes the bean counters require equipment ID's but so did the ICC for several reasons, esp. if the equipment is on an "equipment trust", which the bulk of RR equipment was. And don't sell those roundhouse asnd hostlers sort, they know a lot about equipment, nmore thasn you might think. When I was an Asst Supt on ATSF, the night hostler could practically tell you where the iron ore was mined to make the cylinder liners ! Very informed group, cause it was their BUTT if the train didn't make it out the door, over the prairie and up the mountain! They were also a very superstious group, for example, they always followed the belief that with multiple units, "good lead in.....good lead out.", even if it meant a few minuted to turn that lead unit. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:38:31 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Part 3 Ted and the list, I can only offer generalities, but the K3s class was built for Lines West and tended to stay there at least until WWII, when the 25 engines remaining (five were sold to N&W in 1930 as Gary has posted) could be found on the former Lines East as well. Aside from the 5 engines sold, the class remained intact until December, 1946, when 8391 was scrapped. Attrition thereafter was rapid; K3s 7149 was the last K3s on the roster; she was sold for scrap in October 1949. I have not yet seen a picture of a K3s on my New York and Long Branch, but I have seen pictures of the sister K2s class on the LIRR (about as far east as you can get) and on the New York and Long Branch. I would hesitate to rule out any branches or mail lines, at least during the WWII period. The sister K2s/K2sa class was far more numerous, and could be found systemwide throughout their lives. Naturally, some were assigned to Lines East and Lines West at birth. Doug "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > PRR Gize: > > I have a question regarding this interesting engine. Where did these engines > typically operate on the Pennsy? I am assuming around the Pittsburgh/Wierton > area and maybe the Columbus, Ohio area. Did these engines venture out to > Chicago or get on the Elmira Branch? Does anyone have thoughts on this? > Thank you in advance! > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > -----Original Message----- > From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:32 PM > To: VVA249@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Part 2 > > Dick, > > Here is a quick answer to your part of the question. I found a photo > of an x-PRR K-3 that was sold to the N&W as #500. It shows the PRR Oval > plate still attached and no other plates visible. The picture is in the > book, Norfolk & Western Steam, The last 25 years.......Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:17:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Folks, The Broadway vs the Century was always a fascinating duel, largely a matter of ego from the Pennsy perspective. From what I've gathered the NYC always had the edge on Chi-NY traffic, though being a Pennsy guy with Philley roots I could never understand why. Certainly the fact that the Central had a Manhatten terminal long before the PRR had to be a factor. So too did the fact that NYC was a "flashier" and more flamboyant operator than the Pennsy, which was always considered a bit blue collar and very conservative. Remember when Broadway (the stage center, not the LTD) had a long running play called, of course, "20th Century Limited" (or something like that). Poor Pennsy tried to counter with a rather good B movie, the "Broadway Limited", which was good for railfans if not to the critics. Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. And there was a very real rivalry between New York and Philley in the equation. And if the NYC was regarded as being more fashionable, who in hell is more image conscious than the "sophisticates" of New York? Funny this topic should come up just after I was reflecting on how appealing the gritty brick industrial cities always seemed to me. What could be more flavorful than a Baldwin switcher lumbering along a brick-paved street enroute to some grimey industry? (Well, you don't really have to answer that.) Throw in the smell of anthracite wafting from someone's row house chimney on a chilley gray day, anticipation of a new Honeymooners or Lucy episode on the tube later, maybe an Ortliebs or two, and how could anyone prefer the 20th Century? Water Level Route? Sounds like an overflowing bathtub to me. Next stop, North Philadelphia ("our only stop in Philadelphia....") Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:18:48 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Modeling I just got my copy of the latest MR today, and all I can say is WOW! The layout is outstanding, and in O scale no less. Makes one wonder, just how many fine PRR layouts are out there that we never hear of. Larry Christopher Chany wrote: > Listers, > > After a drought of PRR articles in the model railroad press we have a > bonanza. We had the L1 article, the I1 in Feb MR, the GSh gondola > article in RMC, and now the March MR arrives and there on the cover is > an O scale Horseshoe Curve Layout with a K$ working upgrade and 2 hippos > drifting down. The article opens with a 5 column photo showing a J, two > K4's (one in 1940 streamline) and an I1 on the curve. Ed Rappe of Va. > is the modeler. Almost makes you want to go into O scale(if your not > already in it). > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:50:10 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Y-3 Bill and the List, At the risk of starting a flame war, I feel that the Lifelike Y-3's benefit is more to the hobby in general than to PRR modellers. Here is a superbly crafted and smooth running steam locomotive that several railroads used. In years past, we would have had to pay for brass to get this level of detail out of the box. I will leave the value issue alone; I recently cheerfully paid $300 for a tiny (by comparison) brass H6sb because I felt I couldn't live without one. Any engine will be a bargain to some, and outrageously overpriced to others. Anyway, quality sells, and there can never be enough good engines on the market. As far as the PRR goes, the engines did get the road through the WWII years. As a collector of engines, I can appreciate the addition to one's collection of a rare PRR articulated. At the same time, I agree with Bill that some other PRR prototype would probably grab my attention faster. Now that I have my H6sb, I'd love to see an affordable B6sb in any scale (I model in HO), or a resin boiler for a K2s/K2sa/K3s pacific to mount on a Bowser chassis. Bill Lane wrote: > I don't really understand what all the chat is about in reference to the new > HO Y-3 is. Admittedly, I am not a HO modeler, so I am not sharing in the > excitement. My question is, what is the big deal ? It was not a significant > PRR locomotive. They were a second hand purchase of a small number that did > not make into the 1950's. I could understand and maybe be a little envious > if a great plastic K-4, M-1 or I-1 was produced. I just don't get it. Just > my opinion... > > Bill > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:26:40 EST Subject: [PRR] ENGINE NUMBERS - RULE OF THUMB A good "rule of thumb" for all PRR locos built prior to 1920: Numbers up to 5000 were built for service east of Pittsburgh - numbers over 5000 were built for Lines west, and there were specific series for PFtW&C, C&P CA&C etc. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Spray Booth Expert Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:49:20 -0500 Sorry about that!! I was as surprised as ( I am sure), the list was to see my Email to a client sent as a cc to PRR-Talk. The assistant editor of Products Finishing Magazine (in which my monthly column appears), who was the intended recipient, is one line above PRR-Talk in my address book. The cause of the mistake is either the innate perversity of inanimate objects, old-timers disease or my fat fingers. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 02:01:01 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Y-3 --On Mit, 2. Feb 2000 19:50 -0600 "doug.kisala" wrote: > At the same time, I agree ... that some other PRR prototype would > probably grab my attention faster. Now that I have my H6sb, I'd love to see > an affordable B6sb in any scale (I model in HO), or a resin boiler for a > K2s/K2sa/K3s pacific to mount on a Bowser chassis. Alas, we seem doomed to depend upon the Bowser line for our affordable Pennsy modeling needs (in HO, at any rate). I'm not a collector, but a user. Therefore, I was very happy when Sunset came out with its minimalist, yet nice running H6sb for under $250 at about the time when Railworks was importing its criminally insane (albeit beautifully detailed) $695 D16. Would that some enterprising person would put together a deal that put PRR engines of the quality of the Bachmann and/or Life-Like releases on the market here. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:27:28 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR HH-1 378 Builder Plate In a message dated 2/1/2000 1:24:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << I also have this question on my question list and it also concerns the HH-1 builders plates. As we know this loco was built in the N&W's Roanoke Shops. When the Pennsy replaced those builders plates with the PRR Oval builders plates, did the Pennsy cast in the Roanoke Shops words again or did they cast in Altoona or Juniata Shops? My guess is Altoona Shops. Any comments? Thanks,....Gary >> Well, Gary, I was going to guess it would show Roanoke as the true shop of origin, just as Baldwin-built K4s ovals say "Baldwin" on them -- or at least, the one we sold from the Jack Fravert collection did. But then I remembered that I have a print of HH-1 378. This shot was taken by R.J.Foster at Columbus OH on 4-7-46, enlarged/printed by C.T.Felstead, and sold to me by John Lueke of Como Shops at Bandana Square, St. Paul MN. I can't read the entire plate, but it is clear that the top wraparound lettering says "NORFOLK & WESTERN". It's possible that the straight line underneath that (but above the large HH-1) says "ROANOKE", but I'm less sure. The wraparound at the bottom looks like standard date-and-builder-number data, but I can't resolve those characters in this small an image. The engine looks to be alongside the soutwest corner of the Columbus roundhouse (I could be wrong here), and as this HH-1 thread has pointed out, has a footboard pilot, spoked pony wheels, low un-PRR-looking headlight, a Keystone 378 number plate centered on the smokebox door, and a "forehead bell". The oval plate is the only one visible in this leftside shot. Farther back, the characteristic N&W/USRA-style cab and tender with visible fishbelly side sill belie the "PENNSYLVANIA" across the tender side. BTW, from this angle you can see that the keystone number plate has the triangular stud arrangement. Unsurprisingly, all the number plates I've seen from PRR and N&W have these mounting studs in an 11" equilateral triangle, which of course (if universally true) made switching an engine from N&W to PRR dead easy. Aside from this subject, my understanding is that John Lueke of Como Shops is recovering from a heart attack. Should you contact him, convey my best regards for a speedy recovery. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:41:32 -0500 To the metallurgists on the list. I'm scratch building some parts for the K4 I'm working on. I want to make mounting straps for the air tanks under the running boards. I have lots of the correct diameter tube but its aluminum. My question is not so much can I solder brass to the aluminum (I'll figure that out on my own) more importantly if this process works will the metals react with each other over time and corrode. Kinda like the problem that occurred on Statue of Liberty with the iron bar frame work reacting with the copper skin (I know there is a name for it but it escapes me at the time). My bolts would get really torqued if I did this work and in six months after I completed the job little bubbles of corrosion and pitting started to form. Also can aluminum be soldered to aluminum? My alternative is to go out and buy some brass tube but that would require another trip back to the distant hobby shop. Any wisdom would be much appreciated ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:00:06 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] ENGINE NUMBERS - RULE OF THUMB and 6500's for the VERY far east NYP&N engines that were renumbered into the PRR. JimMcDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 100 09:15:11 -0500 (EST) Kollar, Kris scribit: > To the metallurgists on the list. I'm scratch building some parts for the > K4 I'm working on. I want to make mounting straps for the air tanks under > the running boards. I have lots of the correct diameter tube but its > aluminum. My question is not so much can I solder brass to the aluminum > (I'll figure that out on my own) more importantly if this process works will > the metals react with each other over time and corrode. Kinda like the > problem that occurred on Statue of Liberty with the iron bar frame work > reacting with the copper skin (I know there is a name for it but it escapes > me at the time). My bolts would get really torqued if I did this work and > in six months after I completed the job little bubbles of corrosion and > pitting started to form. I'm not a metallurgist, but a chemist (undergrad); I have a partial answer. Yes, the metals will react. This happens any time 2 metals with different reduction potentials touch. The standard reduction potential for aluminum: Al(3+) + 3 e- <==> Al(s) -1.677 V Brass is, of course, an alloy of copper and zinc (bronze is copper and tin), so it has no single reduction potential. Cu(2+) + 2 e- <==> Cu(s) 0.339 Zn(2+) + 2 e- <==> Zn(s) -0.762 Thus, copper tends to give up electrons, Al and Zn to receive them. Whatever copper oxidizes (from natual processes) will give up electrons to Al (which wants them more badly) and Zn. Yes, they will corrode: both on their own, and in addition to the dissimilar metals problem. You're familiar with brass rail corroding, and if you've ever swept your hand along anything aluminum after it's been sitting a while, and seen the dark grey stuff on your hand, you've seen aluminum oxide. BUT the real question is: is this severe enough to cause a problem? Unfortunately, I can't help you on this. I suspect the answer is that it won't matter, because none of these 3 elements oxidize destructively: i.e. their "rust" does not flake off, like iron oxide does. But best to find out from someone who's actually done it. (But also see below.) > Also can aluminum be soldered to aluminum? Very difficult, according to several metal shop friends of mine. Most metal shops don't even carry the stuff and equipment needed to do it. (IIRC, very high temperatures are also required.) > My alternative is to go out and buy some brass tube but that would require > another trip back to the distant hobby shop. This would be my recommendation. Brass solders/braizes much more easily. Oh, BTW, the reduction potentials were not simply pulled out of my head. They were right here on my bookshelf. Harris, Daniel C. _Quantitative Chemical Analysis_, 4th ed. New York: W. H. Freeman and Co., 1982, pp. AP33-AP41 (Appendix H). Doctor Dan was a professor of mine in college till he got pissed off at the politics of academics, moved back to California, and went off into industry; one of the few people to survive a private plane crash. My year he taught from galley proofs of this book, which I helped proofread. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 100 09:24:26 -0500 (EST) PRRMAN@aol.com scribit: > And I sometimes wonder what the trip was like for those who > rode 4th and 5th sections of the 20th Century. No barbershop, > probably no observation car, certainly lots of yellow signals due > to the previous section closely ahead. It might even be enough > to induce the passenger to try Penn Station the next time! Ignorant question: Were additional sections run ahead or behind the name train, or both, or did it depend on the RR and/or the day or circumstances? (Can you tell I'm not old enough to remember intercity passenger trains run by anyone but Amtrak?) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:39:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR HH-1 378 Builder Plate Rick, Thanks for that additional info. I would have never guessed that the words NORFOLK & WESTERN would appear on that builders plate for this reason. The Locos were actually built at Alco Locomotive works. I would assume, (if normal practice) the Alco Shops name (whichever site) appeared on the plate. Oh well, If you can read that plate then that is what was cast on it. (Off Topic) Just a note on the Keystones. Concerning our emails several weeks ago about the K4 Keystone Number Plates, I recieved my K4s #958 plate the other day. It arrived safely thru the mail. The restoration of it is very good. The guy I purchased this from did the work and used real 22k gold leaf paint for the numbers and trim. The three studs appear to be the full 4 inch in length. Evidently this Keystone was removed by unbolting it from the K instead of the normal torching. I am well pleased with the purchase. Again, thanks for the info on the HH-1 buliders plate and the Keystones....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:03:25 -0500 Kris: There is a low temperature aluminum welding rod available through Sears, Montgomery Ward etc. for fusing aluminum. I've used it on the farm to repair tent poles, folding furniture etc. The demonstrations I have seen at the store always use this stuff to repair holes in beer cans. :-) It's cheap and can be worked with a standard propane torch and its own flux, but falls under the "gimmick" domain since the welds are rather brittle and easily broken. The aluminum mower deck I repaired rebroke easily. It would be perfect for low impact work like modeling. A friend of mine uses it to fasten his aluminum garden railway track together. Aluminum and brass cannot be soldered together, since they each have a different type of molecule and will resist coupling or bonding with the solder. (I will avoid the disertation on face centered molecules etc.) Electrolysis, or bi-metalic corrosion is actually the least of your concerns. Your best bet with material at hand is to use ACC or epoxy for your bond. Make good, clean, oxide free joints and the chemical fastener will hold different metals very well for a long time. With careful temperature control, even a baked on paint finish can be accomplished. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Kollar, Kris To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 7:46 AM Subject: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) >To the metallurgists on the list. I'm scratch building some parts for the >K4 I'm working on. I want to make mounting straps for the air tanks under >the running boards. I have lots of the correct diameter tube but its >aluminum. My question is not so much can I solder brass to the aluminum >(I'll figure that out on my own) more importantly if this process works will >the metals react with each other over time and corrode. Kinda like the >problem that occurred on Statue of Liberty with the iron bar frame work >reacting with the copper skin (I know there is a name for it but it escapes >me at the time). My bolts would get really torqued if I did this work and >in six months after I completed the job little bubbles of corrosion and >pitting started to form. > >Also can aluminum be soldered to aluminum? > >My alternative is to go out and buy some brass tube but that would require >another trip back to the distant hobby shop. > >Any wisdom would be much appreciated > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:13:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main Line" making it the choice of those residents? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:18:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) I think I would super glue the two and I wouldn't clean the oxide off the aluminum. IT is a very pwoerful insulator thus minimizing the problem. An alternative would be epoxy so that the metals don't come in contact with each other at all and a lot easier than soldering. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:38:28 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR 50' car #'s Greetings from NH (There's snow for skiing and life is much quieter since all the pols and satellite trucks have left)! I have picked up three of the Branchline PRR cars, each with a different #. Anyone know how many different #'s they issued?? Thanks. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:58:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline PRR 50' car #'s From: Jerry Britton On 2/3/00 10:38 AM, Tom Mahon (tmahon@cfnh.com) wrote: > Greetings from NH (There's snow for skiing and life is much quieter > since all the pols and satellite trucks have left)! > > I have picked up three of the Branchline PRR cars, each with a different > #. Anyone know how many different #'s they issued?? Four. The single car had a separate number from the three-pack which was three additional numbers. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:03:49 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline PRR 50' car #'s Tom Mahon wrote: > Greetings from NH (There's snow for skiing and life is much quieter > since all the pols and satellite trucks have left)! > > I have picked up three of the Branchline PRR cars, each with a different > #. Anyone know how many different #'s they issued?? > Tom: I believe you have them all! Larry > Thanks. > > Tom Mahon > Merrimack, NH > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:04:29 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question The NH had several trains a day which serviced Penn Station on their way to Washington; the Senator, the Colonial, and the Patriot come to mind. So a connection to the Broadway was available. There are upper class New York City suburbs in New Jersey as well. Residents of Montclair and the Oranges would find catching the B'way at Newark as convenient as people along the Hudson would find catching the Century at Harmon. I think it was a matter of image marketing, and the Central won that battle with the name and the red carpet and all the other gimmicks. I delight, now, in telling my New York Central modeling friends that while the 20th Century is now (or soon will be) gone, there will always be a "Broadway"! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, > apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. > > Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main Line" > making it the choice of those residents? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:27:20 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/03/00 >> NYC seemed to get more Hollywood publicity, including Cary >> Grant being seduced (or as much as was allowed in those days) by Eva Marie >> Saint to join her in her room on the Century in the movie North by >> Norhtwest. > >And in the last scene, returned from Chicago to NY on the Santa Fe!! >Hollywood struck again. > >Andy Miller ==== Naw, that was just a case of mega-merger mania! :-}> Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:38:32 -0500 Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for plastic, resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! (purchased by non-purists no doubt) I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. my 2 cents worth... Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:04 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question The NH had several trains a day which serviced Penn Station on their way to Washington; the Senator, the Colonial, and the Patriot come to mind. So a connection to the Broadway was available. There are upper class New York City suburbs in New Jersey as well. Residents of Montclair and the Oranges would find catching the B'way at Newark as convenient as people along the Hudson would find catching the Century at Harmon. I think it was a matter of image marketing, and the Central won that battle with the name and the red carpet and all the other gimmicks. I delight, now, in telling my New York Central modeling friends that while the 20th Century is now (or soon will be) gone, there will always be a "Broadway"! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, > apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. > > Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main Line" > making it the choice of those residents? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:55:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works From: Jerry Britton Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? A few months back the same thing occured about the PRR version of the C-Liners. No word from Life Like, yet it is rumored to be in the works. What is the source of this info? Any word on ETA's of either of the above? The new Bethlehem Car Works 40' PRR TrucTrain Trailers are now available for order via Merchandise Service. This is an unpainted resin model with decals. It is an outside-ribbed trailer with curb-side door. (Thanks to Ken McCorry for tipping me off that it had been released.) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:00:06 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Regards, The Scioto Valley Model RR Club in Columbus OH has a (vague) model scene of the Horseshoe curve. Not wanting to spend the bucks on a Bachmann or Bowser K4, the loco in the park is a Monogram J3 Hudson lettered for the PRR as I recall! Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass > models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for plastic, > resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi > lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! > (purchased by non-purists no doubt) > > I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. > > my 2 cents worth... > > Ted Andrews -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:40:04 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Jerry Britton wrote: > A few months back the same thing occured about the PRR version of the > C-Liners. No word from Life Like, yet it is rumored to be in the works. What > is the source of this info? A hobby shop site in Germany has part numbers already. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:18:04 -0500 Jerry and the list: I have a question about the Bethlehem Car Works PRR Truc Train trailer. Is the trailer a solid resin model or is it hollow? When fully built and placed on a 75' or 86' flatcar, would the trailer tend to make the faltcar top heavy? Just curious.... Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:55 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? A few months back the same thing occured about the PRR version of the C-Liners. No word from Life Like, yet it is rumored to be in the works. What is the source of this info? Any word on ETA's of either of the above? The new Bethlehem Car Works 40' PRR TrucTrain Trailers are now available for order via Merchandise Service. This is an unpainted resin model with decals. It is an outside-ribbed trailer with curb-side door. (Thanks to Ken McCorry for tipping me off that it had been released.) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:16:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works The trailer is hollow with a seperate floor. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:35:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question In terms of multiple sections of a given train, generally, only the first section would make all of the scheduled stops as per timetable schedule, the second section would make some stops and skip others and so on down the line. Each section would be assigned a set of stops that it would make and some would run express between more distant stops. I believe that is how the Central operated the Century and other trains operated in multiple sections. Only the first section made all the stops. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:41:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question It is true that the Pennsy has the edge on books and I happen to be working on one about the Standard Railroad of the World in its f inal years of independence. I can always use photos of diesel passenger and freight trains from around the system. Does any one have any extras I might be able to buy or swap some timetables for? Jim Mancuso 56B S. Main St. Perry, NY 14530 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:43:04 -0500 Ken: Thank you for the information. I am now off to build TT-1! Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: KEMACPRR@aol.com [mailto:KEMACPRR@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 2:17 PM To: Ted.Andrews@woolpert.com Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works The trailer is hollow with a seperate floor. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:42:43 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: Sections (was:PRR passenger train question) No wonder there were so many collisions between sections! Would the subsequent, non-stop, sections quickly overtake the all-stops, first section? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== GenJim833@aol.com wrote: > > In terms of multiple sections of a given train, generally, only the first > section would make all of the scheduled stops as per timetable schedule, the > second section would make some stops and skip others and so on down the line. > Each section would be assigned a set of stops that it would make and some > would run express between more distant stops. I believe that is how the > Central operated the Century and other trains operated in multiple sections. > Only the first section made all the stops. > > Jim Mancuso > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:51:07 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Jerry asked: >Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like >will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, >there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing >it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? 2 pieces of evidence, both from Life-Like 1) In the booklet that comes with the Y-3, LL discusses that they will contribute a portion of the proceeds to each historical society of the roads being offered, and the PRRT&HS is listed 2) In my undec version, all the spare parts for the different versions are included, and there is a KEYSTONE number plate! All in all, pretty solid evidence eh? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:59:21 -0500 And I believe a lot more PRR steam engines were saved than NYC, too! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted To: 'Andy Miller' ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question >Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass >models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for plastic, >resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >(purchased by non-purists no doubt) > >I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. > >my 2 cents worth... > >Ted Andrews > >-----Original Message----- >From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] >Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:04 AM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question > > >The NH had several trains a day which serviced Penn Station on their way >to Washington; the Senator, the Colonial, and the Patriot come to mind. >So a connection to the Broadway was available. > >There are upper class New York City suburbs in New Jersey as well. >Residents of Montclair and the Oranges would find catching the B'way at >Newark as convenient as people along the Hudson would find catching the >Century at Harmon. > >I think it was a matter of image marketing, and the Central won that >battle with the name and the red carpet and all the other gimmicks. I >delight, now, in telling my New York Central modeling friends that while >the 20th Century is now (or soon will be) gone, there will always be a >"Broadway"! > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >=================================================== >NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: >> >> Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, >> apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. >> >> Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main >Line" >> making it the choice of those residents? >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >-- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brooks" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:08:34 -0500 Let's not forget to mention that the PRR has 'em beat on the Internet, too! Brian -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted To: 'Andy Miller' ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:36 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question >Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass >models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for plastic, >resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >(purchased by non-purists no doubt) > >I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. > >my 2 cents worth... > >Ted Andrews > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:15:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Jerry, If I remember correctly the C-Liners are a LifeLike Proto of Canada project. I believe it has little to do with the US market hence no public announcment on LifeLikes US site. Although when I visited a Canadian website (Don't remeber what the url is) the PRR version is the 3rd on the list to be released behind the 2 Canadian Roads. I also believe there will be a PRR version of the HH-1 released as well. In fact, they went as far as placing a Keystone Number Plate in the extra parts bag of the released undecorated locos. I also read on a discussion group that LifeLike left 2 voids in the list of stock numbers. Could this be for the future PRR version as well as the D&RGW version? I have heard rumors that the PRR version will be released next year. Maybe that is why LifeLike did not announce it yet. Hell, I don't even think the USRA 0-8-0 is announced on ther page yet but everyone seems to know that is the next Proto 2000 Steam project. The new "rumor" has it that the next Steamer after that will be a run of the Lima Super Power Berkshires. All in the form of NKP, PM, W&LE and C&O. I was kinda leaning towards some nice Challengers. Only time will tell on what will be released... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:36:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works In a message dated 2/3/00 3:05:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << 2) In my undec version, all the spare parts for the different versions are included, and there is a KEYSTONE number plate! All in all, pretty solid evidence eh? >> I would say that that above all seals the deal. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:37:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works In a message dated 02/03/2000 11:08:48 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? >> VERY VERY broad hints from LifeLike at their booth at the Chicagoland Hobby Show in October. However, it could be a while. They operate on a 2-year window. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:57:23 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Close call? List: We should extend condolences to our Milwaukee Road-fan brethren--they lost a freight station last night in downtown Chicago. Of course, I did not know it was their's and not ours until I got downtown, only that an old brick freight depot had burned alongside Metra tracks. (Seems like it delayed quite a few trains in the process, too.) What worried me, of course, was the fact that an old Pan Handle freight station stood close by, diagonally across the joint north approach tracks to CUS about one block west at Peoria Street, and the news story I saw briefly on my way in this morning was not clear on which building burned. Fortunately for us, it was their's. But condolences are still in order--it was a fine old station that was destroyed at Union Street. Something that ran through my mind at the time was: what if? Who will help me try to save the molded concrete Keystone built into the Pan Handle freight station's gabled end should there ever be a similar disaster? Or is that a ridiculous pipedream? The Keystone contains the legend "Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh-freight station," and should be on display somewhere at "Lewistown." The station--I've had the pleasure of being inside it--is red brick with slate roof, and a wooden-trussed roof support inside that has a bazillion turnbuckled rods keeping it tight. Given the Keystone and its inscription, I would guess it to date from the 1890s or 1900s. Certainly, it is newer than the former Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh freight station about a third-mile further east at Canal Street, which dates from 1884. Anyway, forgive this ramble. And remember, we dodged a preservationist's bullet last night. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:07:57 -0800 Jerry, any chance of putting a photo of one of these up on your "Merchandise" web site? What's your judgement as to the accuracy/quality of the decals? What PRR number series are these trailers? Thanks. Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA >The new Bethlehem Car Works 40' PRR TrucTrain Trailers are now available for >order via Merchandise Service. This is an unpainted resin model with decals. >It is an outside-ribbed trailer with curb-side door. (Thanks to Ken McCorry >for tipping me off that it had been released.) >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:51:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works As far as the decals go, Curt La Rue of the PRR Cinncinatti group helped Bethlehem Car Works with the prototype info and color/information. Better help could not of been found and probably doesn't exist. Included on the decal set are 4 trailer heralds two each of the different size circular Truc Train discs. Excelsior leasing decals. 5 PRRZ and numerous number combinations. This is a set that PRR Truc Train modelers have been waiting for years to come out. I am proud to have been one of the instigators of this project as it turned out far better than I would have ever invisioned. Enjoy, Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:59:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Close call? Richard, Who owns the Panhandle station? Is it abandoned? Could it be preserved intact? Are there any pictures of it on the net? Rick Rowlands ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:40:37 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question Mark, The first set of equipment in sequence would have to be the "first section." Carrying green signals indicates a following section, not the specific section. The lack of green signals indicates that no more sections will follow. It would thus be disastrous to omit signals on an intermediate section unless the fact were protected by orders or established sighal policy. If one section runs around another, they are required to exchange signals and orders with each other - NY Central, 1937, Rule 85: "...A section may pass and run ahead of another section of the same schedule, first exchanging train orders, signals, and numbers with the section to be passed. The change in sections must be reported from the next available point of communications." Designation of engines as to their respective sections, as well as providing for the change of their relative positions, was also addressed in train order Forms. BTW, and definitely FWIW, Hungerford's very wordy _The Run of 20th Century_ states that all sections were "complete" as to diners, lounges, etc., with no reduction in amenities being allowed. Even taken with a grain of salt, this seems reasonable given the status of the train in times past. Hungerford also stated that the last section made any intermediate stops. Regarding another post on following sections "running on yellow signals," at some point the Central apparently was strongly in favor of following engineers holding back a block with their following train so they could run at track speed on green signals rather than attempt to illegally make the same speed on yellow signals, with the very definite possibility of rear-ending an unexpectedly delayed or stopped train. Steve Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question From: "Mark Bej" Date: Thu, 3 Feb 100 09:24:26 -0500 (EST) PRRMAN@aol.com scribit: > And I sometimes wonder what the trip was like for those who > rode 4th and 5th sections of the 20th Century. No barbershop, > probably no observation car, certainly lots of yellow signals due > to the previous section closely ahead. It might even be enough > to induce the passenger to try Penn Station the next time! Ignorant question: Were additional sections run ahead or behind the name train, or both, or did it depend on the RR and/or the day or circumstances? (Can you tell I'm not old enough to remember intercity passenger trains run by anyone but Amtrak?) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:16:10 -0700 Guys, ConCor did exactly this in N scale and it actually sold! Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- >...I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >(purchased by non-purists no doubt) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:20:02 -0700 No thanks to "big" Al Perleman. No wonder he got the nickname "butcher boy of the San Juans". (for those of you not in the know, Al Perleman was with the D&RGW before he went onto "bigger and better things"...and guess what...NO standard gauge steamers were saved by the Grande.) Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bigler To: Andrews, Ted ; 'Andy Miller' ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question >And I believe a lot more PRR steam engines were saved than NYC, too! > >Bill Bigler >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII > >-----Original Message----- >From: Andrews, Ted >To: 'Andy Miller' ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > >Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:44 AM >Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question > > >>Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass >>models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for >plastic, >>resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >>lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >>(purchased by non-purists no doubt) >> >>I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. >> >>my 2 cents worth... >> >>Ted Andrews >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] >>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:04 AM >>To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >>Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question >> >> >>The NH had several trains a day which serviced Penn Station on their way >>to Washington; the Senator, the Colonial, and the Patriot come to mind. >>So a connection to the Broadway was available. >> >>There are upper class New York City suburbs in New Jersey as well. >>Residents of Montclair and the Oranges would find catching the B'way at >>Newark as convenient as people along the Hudson would find catching the >>Century at Harmon. >> >>I think it was a matter of image marketing, and the Central won that >>battle with the name and the red carpet and all the other gimmicks. I >>delight, now, in telling my New York Central modeling friends that while >>the 20th Century is now (or soon will be) gone, there will always be a >>"Broadway"! >> >>Regards, >> >>Andy Miller >>asmiller@mitre.org >> >>=================================================== >>NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, >>> apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. >>> >>> Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main >>Line" >>> making it the choice of those residents? >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >>-- >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:26:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Releases... Jerry, I too have heard from a very reliable resource that there will be a second version of the Y-3(a) released in the near future. I believe it! You could have heard that LIFE LIKE OF CANADA was releasing the FM CFA-16-44's from me or perhaps read my Scuttle Butt column in Mainline Modeler in December, because I first announced it the week following the National Model and Hobby Show (MRIA) in Chicago, IL this past fall. I have seen the test shots and they are beautiful. Again they will be released in Canada first followed by a limited release through the Baltimore office. Jerry, you are a small retailer and need to keep in touch with Nolan Null personally to make sure you get your share and don't loose out like the Y-3's. Again these will be very limited production, in the Proto 1000 series, NO B UNITS, NO 5 axle variants. Anyone wishing more details Email me direct off line! Jerry again for the benefit of your customers, contact Nolan Null and make him your primary contact, you have a good following of loyal customers here and Nolan needs to know that. I know him well, with that being said, bug him, bug him, bug him.... Greg Martin Jerry Britton writes: << Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? A few months back the same thing occurred about the PRR version of the C-liner. No word from Life Like, yet it is rumored to be in the works. What is the source of this info? Any word on ETA's of either of the above?>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: [PRR] Kato follies... Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:23:42 -0700 Guys, I am on a regular e-mail list from ECMR, and today I got the following message from Al...thought I would pass it on. Nice to know that the "wonderful" folks at Kato think so much of their customers. Dear Friends, In the past we have filled virtually every Kato reservation in both N and HO Scale. Limited Production is normal for Kato, but with this GP35 release I must ask these people why bother??? I want to be honest and up front. I may have to ration or even cut some orders. I am working feverishly to secure as many as I can so everyone gets what they wanted. I will notify you as soon as possible if there are cuts. I apologoze for this. Never in a million years would I think that Kato would produce so little of something, I mean this is ridiculous. One distributor, and a very prominent one, told me he has 16 of each number to sell to 250 accounts. I would guess 240 smaller accounts will get zero. Way to go Kato!! If you are thinking of calling Kato, save your time and money. I did for years and they do things their way, and are not interested in anyones advice or suggestions. Please stand by, I hope to bring everyone better news in my next update. Best Regards, Al Nice guys...wanna bet that it will be a cold day in Hell before I again purchase one of Kato's items? Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:01:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question In a message dated 00-02-02 13:47:11 EST, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Or wannabes. NYC seemed to get more Hollywood publicity, including Cary Grant being seduced (or as much as was allowed in those days) by Eva Marie Saint to join her in her room on the Century jin the movie North by Norhtwest. Almost revived train travel for a while :-). The advertising ploy of the red carpet at Grand Central and La Salle Stree didn't hurt the image. >> Beebe's book "20th Century" (I'm almost ashamed to say I own it---at $8.95 it must have been some youthful indiscretion!) thoroughly discusses the excellent advertising/publicity machine which the NYC had. They kept up an unending stream of publicity which caused the 20th Century to have a glitzy, star-studded aura which no PRR train ever had. Most of the passengers who opted for the Century over the Broadway probably were just hoping to see a movie star. In terms of actual performance and amenities, the trains were equal. Remember "The Sting"? The onboard high-stakes card game, with the conductor holding and tallying the bets for the Chicago gangsters, had to be on the Century. That kinda stuff wouldn't have been permitted on "our train"! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 07:34:13 -0600 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Hudson? >... I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >(purchased by non-purists no doubt) We should be very careful about this sort of thing. Considering what Ravioli has done to that locomotive - C&O, Milwaukee Road, Santa Fe - they might just do it. It's a wonder that the UP 4-8-4 hasn't come out as NYC and D&H - after all, they all had elephant ears, and the Niagara had a centipede tank. What we really need is for them to bring out a plastic J1... Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 15:02:29 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Releases... TGREGMRTN@aol.com schrieb: > Jerry, > > I too have heard from a very reliable resource that there will be a second > version of the Y-3(a) released in the near future. I believe it! > Hi folks, just received a almost sensational news from Nuremberg Toy Fair, opened yesterday: Roco announced the Proto 2000 2-8-8-2 in a special release, as: Santa Fe, Roco-item # 63351 N&W, Roco-item # 63350 They donīt tell where the models are built, but explicitely mention a versioin offered by Life Like for the US-market (probably the release now almost sold out), and name some changes to the version offered by Roco for the European market: - Wheelsets slightly changed to match also NEM-standards - NEM-coupler-boxes (there is, of course, the Kadee for NEM...) The picture in their new folder looks great, and very much like the Proto 2000 photos. See also: "News 2000" on the Roco-website: http://www.roco.co.at/index.htm The co-operation with Life Like is rather astonishing, because up to now some selected Proto 2000 items were supplied through the German company Brawa, and not by Roco. However, Brawa announces again some Life Like models: RDC-2 (B&O, Amtrak, WP) USRA 0-8-0 (CB&Q, NYC, SR) SD-60 GP-9 (GN, UP) Alco FA-1/FB-1 (GN, NH, UP, MoPac, Frisco, LV, Rock Island) More under: http://www.brawa.de/neuheit/us.htm Roco also re-releases a FP-7 in UP-colours, now for the European market. Maybe more will come... I will keep you informed of any other news I can get from Nuremberg! Burkhard ---- Dr. Burkhard Sanner Lahnau Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:17:13 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question In a message dated 00-02-02 13:47:11 EST, Bobspf@aol.com writes: Remember "The Sting"? The onboard high stakes card game, with the conductor holding and tallying the bets for the Chicago gangsters, had to be on the Century. That kinda stuff wouldn't have been permitted on "our train"! -------- Yeh, that's why my Dad, a Circulation Department employee for the Camden (NJ) Courier-Post, could always tell us where the high stakes games were in Atlantic City, especially during the summer when the race track was open. All they did was legalize what was rampant in AC when they allowed casinos. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:43:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Source For Bachmann Spectrum at up to 50% Off! From: Jerry Britton I normally only make sales posts to the Merchandise Announce list, but this one is too good to not share with all... One of our distributors is having an inventory reduction sale on Bachmann Spectrum products. There are limited quantities and we cannot guarantee delivery on all orders, but the savings are substantial: 30-50% off! PRR items include the 44 ton switcher, heavyweight passenger cars, and many other locos. Other roadnames are available but not listed in the eStore. If you are looking for a non-PRR roadname, e-mail us for availability. --------------------------------------------