Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 01:30:05 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] did y2k get to prr talk hi all... did this supposed y2k get to PRR talk? I haven't gotten any e-mail. Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: [PRR] did y2k get to prr talk Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 02:22:32 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF53FF.0F0C6660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apparently Y2K didn't get to too much of anything. Thank God for that! = Happy New Year to everyone! Sincerely, Rick ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF53FF.0F0C6660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Apparently Y2K didn't get to too much of anything. = Thank God=20 for that! Happy New Year to everyone!
Sincerely,
Rick
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF53FF.0F0C6660-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 11:43:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] did y2k get to prr talk Happy Millennium All. Y2k is all partied out from last nite. Give them to wake up, eat and let the New Year start talking. We will see what happens when everyone gets back to business to really see what is going to happen. Until then ENJOY. My computer jumped 36 hrs, no problem,just reset the clock and everything has been fine. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 07:27:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: ***ahhahha. In a message dated 12/30/1999 10:19:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, prrsignals@adelphia.net writes: << ***Hi, Rick- I am thinking that it was the Nations' sesquicentennial, as in 1776 + 150 = 1926 .... huh..??? Too early, but my thoughts... Wanna revise / resend your post ? >> Jack Fravert had a PRR-issued tourist brochure from 1926, featuring the US Sesquicentennial celebration (in Philadelphia, of course). I'd consult it for more info, but a member of our team, Ken Durham, is/will be offering it on eBay. Ken specializes in tourist brochures, of which Jack had several hundred. Sorry I don't know much about the US sesquicentennial per se. I guess my dad was 12 that year, so he didn't go either.... :^) Wonder what other sesquicentennials might have been relevant to your original question? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the great Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 11:50:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Colors-1952 In a message dated 12/30/1999 11:25:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << AP20 (PA1)--all delivered in DGLE with 5 bronze gold stripes. At least some, maybe all, were repainted to Tuscan with 5 dulux gold stripes. A few were painted DGLE with single dulux gold stripe for freight service; I do not know if these saw any service in Tuscan first or went to freight service. >> Only 1 PA1 was ever painted in DGLE single stripe. While often photographed it was a loner. The others remained in Tuscan even in freight service. All of the PB 1 units remained in passenger service. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:08:07 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR identified engine on NS There is an exCR SW1500 at Colehour Yard in Hammond Indiana ( #1614 as I recall) that has been identified PRR for break up purposes in what is a first for me. Instead of the number in a white block with PRR either in the number block or under the number this engine has the intertwined PRR that was used in the keystone. Letters are in black in a white square that is about 6" on each side. Script used looks very close to the PRR used script. Somebody must have a sense of history. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] did y2k get to prr talk Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 09:07:47 -0500 We got a railroad! Rule 281. (Aspect from onerrave.com) I've not seen any system degradations. Anyone hear or see otherwise? I run systems in Asia/Pac, Russia, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, the Americas; I've sat on these things since Thursday, today I go home and kiss my loving and understanding wife. All I've seen is a florescent light tube burn out. Now we wait to see how Monday looks, then on to 2/29/2000, then close of first quarter. All the process docs, the "what ifs" all of it...of course if it was not like this, I would have been burned. We are not out of the tunnel yet, but there is the light. Happy New Year everyone and best wishes into the new 'Century (whoops, wrong RR ) Later... Conan -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of bubbles@visi.net Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 1:30 AM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] did y2k get to prr talk hi all... did this supposed y2k get to PRR talk? I haven't gotten any e-mail. Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 11:47:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE MIke: The closest match out of the bottle IMHO is Scalecoat Brunswick green. If used over black plastic or a black primer, it is a good match in artificial light. If used over gray or white plastic, the green is too light. I generally use the SCalecoat with about engine black in a mix of 7:3 for light colored plastics and straight for black plastics. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:28:23 EST Subject: [PRR] 1" Scale PRR Models In a message dated 12/24/99 12:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, alcoman@net.bluemoon.net writes: << On Fri, 24 Dec 1999 DPoole17@aol.com wrote: >Just checking to see if I got the address correct in my address book!! Jus >subscribed. I am an AMTRAK engineer and build ONE INCH scale live steam >engines and rolling stock. PRR only!! > >> You probably know this already, but such models are always a big hit at the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society annuals. This year's meeting is in Camp Hill PA ("suburban Enola" to the hardcore railfans) on the first weekend in May. The date is always easy for me to determine, because it's always the same Saturday as the Kentucky Derby. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Modeling Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 16:54:19 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/30/99 Alan Buchan wrote: > Subject: "Keystone" emblem > Dan Cupper's "The Pennsylvania Railroad - Its Place in History 1846-1996" > credits it to a May 26, 1901 Form 51 public timetable. Thanks Al. Does anyone know of any earlier emblem or logo used by the PRR? Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 21:44:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] did y2k get to prr talk From: Jerry Britton On 1/1/00 1:30 AM, bubbles@visi.net at (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > > did this supposed y2k get to PRR talk? > I haven't gotten any e-mail. PRR-Talk is fine. We're unscathed...running on Macintosh! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:36:12 EST Subject: [PRR] (no subject) Guys Happy New Year to all. Quick question I need to replace the horn on a Kato SD40. What aftermarket Horn (DA DW Cal-scale is correct) Thanks Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 17:23:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] did y2k get to prr talk Happy New Millennium to all. Any one out there today? No PRR-TALK people on line? Checked this morning about 11:00am and now at 5:20pm and no one but H. Mummert at bubbles@visi.net left a note. Did we loose PRR-TALK? Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 22:18:27 -0500 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: [PRR] Re: Catenary poles Back in 1979, I worked for an engineering firm in NYC that had a portion of the work involved in the Northeast Corridor Improvement Project. I remember the office having a set of what were called "erection drawings", original engineering drawings of every catenary support structure. The section we were working on was in Maryland, but I have to believe these drawings exist for all electified territories. The firm I worked for was Sverdrup & Parcels. They were working in partnership with Parsons Brinckerhoff on the project. You may want to try and contact either of these companies. I wonder if the Hagley Museum in Delaware has copies of these drawings? May be worth a call. these drawings must be available somewhere! Good Luck. Bob Zeolla ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: [PRR] PA1 Paint Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:02:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BF54AC.554D4A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There were most definitely TWO PA1's painted DGLE w/single narrow stripe = (freight). See PDY #1, page 29 for pic. Their numbers were 5757 & 5758. = But 5752 on the opposite page sure looks better in the Tuscan 5-stripe!! = Makes me wish I had been born about 10 years earlier! Rick S.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BF54AC.554D4A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There were most definitely TWO PA1's painted DGLE = w/single=20 narrow stripe (freight). See PDY #1, page 29 for pic. Their numbers were = 5757=20 & 5758. But 5752 on the opposite page sure looks better in the = Tuscan=20 5-stripe!! Makes me wish I had been born about 10 years = earlier!
 
Rick S. 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BF54AC.554D4A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Y2K issues Date: Sat, 1 Jan 100 23:36:26 -0500 (EST) In response to several emails -- Jerry has already mentioned that his site runs on Mac, which is Y2K compliant if not immune. My site is on a Unix box, with most of it immune as well. However, my institution decided to limit outside web and email access from 10:00 on 12/31 until at least 1/1, and possibly 1/4. There were some concerns about 1) a Y2K virus and/or 2) deliberate Y2K hacking. Not sure exactly what it was, but they (and I know others) decided to limit access as a result. I tried to phone Jerry (email was already not getting out) on Friday, but discovered that it was a vacation day to most. (We were working.) Anyway, I'm suggesting that a similar issue may have been the reason for the low traffic level. THen again, consider that everyone ELSE, just like you, may have been doing various Y2K stuff like buying party hats; trying to remember if Extra Dry is dryer than Brut, or the other way around; fighting all the blue-haired ladies for the gallon jugs of water, candles, and batteries; trying to figure out a way around the "no return of generators" policy at Sears and Home Depot; and digging that bunker in the back yard. Me? I was just "putting out fires", as they say. Twisted my back digging my bunker, had to quit, trying to see if one of those famous Philadelphia lawyers will take my case. I intend to sue the manufacturer of the spade AND the manufacturer of the Fiberglas(R) handle. Besides suing Mickie Dee's for that hot coffee I spilled on myself while I was digging. How much can you get for Loss of Consortium? :-) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 00:16:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR AP-20/AFP-20's Hey Yuze, After all my research leading up to the my upcoming article on the ALCO PA/B-1 here's some things that I have found... It seems like certain PA-1's seemed to escape the photographers lens after 1952. I have not seen a photo of the 5750A or 5751A repainted anywhere. You seldom see photos of the 5755A but they are out there. The 5757A and the 5758A were both repainted in DGLE ("Brunswick Green" per Glidden's spec "locomotive dark green enamel" reference Pullman Standards Paint archives 6-5-40 used on four test 12-1 passenger cars) and were retired in that color. They were also often seen running together in a paired set (5757 & 5758). I have found one shot of the set in passenger service in July of 1959 with what appears to be an excursion or a military movement. I have found only one AP-20 (B-unit) repainted into Tuscan with a single broad stripe and Billboard lettering, 5758B. All A-units except 5753A had their traction motor blower vents mounted on the nose outside the door and above the nose centerline. It seems as though there was no standard to the pilot door removal for the permanent opening. All seem to have a different curve at the bottom of the opening if at all. The insulators holding the train phone induction piping on the fireman's side run towards the back, down the end and back forward towards the rear truck until it hits a point above the second journal when a small piece of conduit grounds off to the truck, presumably to receive the signal. The PB-1's were not regeared for freight service but ended their careers in freight service. Nearly all A-units had the rear skirts covering the fuel tanks removed but it seems as though the only B unit with this treatment was the 5758B. Hope this clears up some mysteries and misunderstandings Greg Martin << steveh@dotstar.net writes: << AP20 (PA1)--all delivered in DGLE with 5 bronze gold stripes. At least some, maybe all, were repainted to Tuscan with 5 dulux gold stripes. A few were painted DGLE with single dulux gold stripe for freight service; I do not know if these saw any service in Tuscan first or went to freight service. >> Only 1 PA1 was ever painted in DGLE single stripe. While often photographed it was a loner. The others remained in Tuscan even in freight service. All of the PB 1 units remained in passenger service. Rich Orr >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 07:27:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] did y2k get to prr talk In a message dated 1/1/2000 10:30:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, PKMac1@aol.com writes: << Happy New Millennium to all. Any one out there today? No PRR-TALK people on line? Checked this morning about 11:00am and now at 5:20pm and no one but H. Mummert at bubbles@visi.net left a note. Did we loose PRR-TALK? >> No, I believe most of us have been busy with 1. partying 2. doing yearend chores, including updating computers 3. had our machines turned off, dreading Y2K troubles (I had 'em, but they've been minor). I specifically have been getting ready for Auction Six of the Jack Fravert collection. Aside from a group of vintage PRR public timetables, there's not a lot of PRR collectibles this time around, so I haven't been posting much about this to PRR-Talk. OTOH, PRR-Talkers will be glad to hear that I'm getting closer to completing the Covered Hopper article for the Keystone. Of course, I'm only about a year behind on it, but it feels like we're getting to the end at this point. Hope you've all had a great holiday season. Now let's get back at it.... Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:15:24 EST Subject: [PRR] OP: GR&I 1950's Folks, I had a pretty good bull session last night with an old friend who'd done some work up in GR&I territory during post-Pennsy days. His employer, Railway Service Co., did a lot of rail relaying and curve straightening, etc. We were talking about Cadilac, MI, where PRR crossed the Ann Arbor at grade. Both railroads had decent yards, Selma Yard on the AA and, I think, North Cadilac on the Pennsy. PRR also had an engine terminal complete with turntable and roundhouse, etc located between the yard and the junction with the 'belt line' which connected over to the Annie. With considerable local industry and interchange activity, we got to wondering about Pennsy operations.Between local lore and various articles and OG entries we were able to piece together some data. Besides the seasonal Northern Arrow and #'s 509 and 510, there was also a daily through freight Grand Rapids to Mackinaw City, as well as locals to traverse City and another branch north of town. Our questions are: -was there an additional train from Cadillac to Grand Rapids in the 1950's era? -how many tricks did the resident switcher work at that time? -did the road job switch power in town, as business was lighter to the north? one known set of power was an f unit with a GP9B -what other traffic moved here besides ore extras? thanks folks for any input. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:27:31 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] OP: GR&I 1950's "Barry Peltier" writes: > With considerable local industry and interchange activity, we got to > wondering about Pennsy operations.Between local lore and various articles and > OG entries we were able to piece together some data. Besides the seasonal > Northern Arrow and #'s 509 and 510, there was also a daily through freight > Grand Rapids to Mackinaw City, as well as locals to traverse City and another > branch north of town. Wasn't there at one time railcar ferry service from the PRR in Mackinaw City on the lower peninsula across the straits of Mackinac to the Soo Line at St. Ignace on the upper peninsula? Any know for sure or have any other info? BTW, the next century/millenium doesn't begin until Jan. 1, 2001. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:39:21 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] OP: GR&I 1950's On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Bob Poortinga wrote: > "Barry Peltier" writes: > > > With considerable local industry and interchange activity, we got to > > wondering about Pennsy operations.Between local lore and various articles and > > OG entries we were able to piece together some data. Besides the seasonal > > Northern Arrow and #'s 509 and 510, there was also a daily through freight > > Grand Rapids to Mackinaw City, as well as locals to traverse City and another > > branch north of town. > > Wasn't there at one time railcar ferry service from the PRR in Mackinaw City > on the lower peninsula across the straits of Mackinac to the Soo Line at > St. Ignace on the upper peninsula? Any know for sure or have any other info? > > BTW, the next century/millenium doesn't begin until Jan. 1, 2001. Actually, if you mean the second thousand years counting up for Jan 1, 1, we've been in the next millenium for several years now. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:48:34 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] oops and more Life-Like releases (HO) Didn't mean to send that last piece of mail without some actual useful (on topic) information attached. Sorry:-( Anyhow, on another list I'm on, this URL was sent a few weeks ago: http://home.t-online.de/home/all-american-trains/ Follow the "news" link. You'll see that Life-Like will be bringing out: 23466 FA-1 + FB-1 Pennsylvania Railroad TBA #9603/9603B 23467 FA-1 + FB-1 Pennsylvania Railroad TBA #9605/9605B in the P2K line, and 23968 F3B Pennsylvania brunswick green #9502B 23969 F3B Pennsylvania brunswick green #9508B in the P1K line. You'll also see a comment that we can expect to see C-Liners (nominally P1K but apparently with better detail) decorated PRR (tuscan red???); I hope they fix the fans (the Canadian C-Liner had only 3) At any rate, for those people clamoring for a similar quality FA1/FB1 to the P2K FA2/FB2, your wish has been heard. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 12:51:26 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] OP: GR&I 1950's Derrick J Brashear wrote: > Actually, if you mean the second thousand years counting up for Jan 1, 1, > we've been in the next millenium for several years now. A millenium is 1000 years. Humans count things starting with the number 1, including years. Therefore we are in the final year of the current millenium, and the next millenium starts with January 1, 2001. This is all true if you follow the Christian calendar. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine Leave it to the computer people to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It's that kind of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:47:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Lines West Fun Fest - II. Fred-- Sounds good. If we need a single day liability policy I have an agent in Xenia which will sell it cheap. As the PRRT&HS society annual meet is in the late spring, I had hoped to hold the LWFF 2K in the fall. I do need help. My health is in decline, my wife says. I'm sure that we can get the Cincinnati Division gize to attend. BTW Rick Tipton will be giving a presentation to the Div 3, NMRA meeting 2 p.m. Jan. 16 in the Wright Libarary on Ohio 48 in Oakwood (just south and west of the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern in Dayton's well-heeled suburb). I can give directionins Fred Rea Writes: I talked to Dan Adair today and we came to some conclusions: 1-Due to personal conflicts and the PRRT&HS meeting the first of May, it would be best to postpone LWFF-II until Sept or early Oct. 2-Our best candidate for a location would be a hall in Delaware on the Ohio Wesleyan campus. Dave of Dave's books has said he could get us a place...free. 3-I would call the OC and see if we can have it on a Sat when they have an excursion on the following Sunday . This would allow those that come to Central Ohio for the weekend to also get a ride on the Panhandle. 4-Possible presentations could include: 1-Dan on the history in the Columbus area (we did not discuss this tonite, but I know Dan has gobs of slides!), 2-Dan's brother Dave on the Cleveland & Marietta branch,and 3-I might see if OC could send some one to talk about the recent history and future plans for their operations on their former PRR lines. Also, a while ago, we had kicked around a self guided auto tour of the RR history of Columbus. I am sure we can get a free Franklin County map for everyone and add a supplement on what used to be. Those that want to can meditate on the old PRR yards as they drive over them on I-670. All this is very tentative, but I was going to call the OC in a day or so. I'll hold off until you guys reach an agreement on where and when. Please let me know what you guys think. I am a minor player in all this. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:00:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] oops and more Life-Like releases (HO) In a message dated 1/2/2000 3:33:36 PM Central Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << C-Liners ... decorated PRR (tuscan red???) >> Gag me with a PC worm logo, I hope not. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:54:55 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR logo on NS engines Saw a first for me in the Chicago area although I haven't been along NS tracks in awhile. SW1500 in CR paint (#1614 I believe) had a 6" square white box with the intertwined PRR in black under the number. Every other engine I have seen has a 6" by 12" white block with PRR just like it is printed. The print font they used was pretty close to the old PRR style. Somebody has a sense of history at NS or CR. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:21:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] OP: GR&I 1950's In a message dated 1/2/00 3:33:31 PM Central Standard Time, bobp@tsc.com writes: << Wasn't there at one time railcar ferry service from the PRR in Mackinaw City on the lower peninsula across the straits of Mackinac to the Soo Line at St. Ignace on the upper peninsula? Any know for sure or have any other info? BTW, the next century/millenium doesn't begin until Jan. 1, 2001. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA >> ---------------------------------- Bob & folks, Yes there certainly was car ferry service across the straits. It was under the DSS&A until that road was merged into the Soo Line c1960, and continued into the Conrail era. For many years the car ferry carried through Detroit-Duluth, MN and Detroit-Marquette baggage cars from off the MC (NYC) Detroit-Mackinaw City passenger train. An article in what, the Spring? 1999 Keystone mentioned ore trains being ferried accoss from, I would imagine, the Michigan ranges and handed over to the Pennsy for movement south. Their final destination I don't know. Pennsy also participated in the car ferry operation out of Muskegon, Mi to Milwaukee. It's too bad the Keystone hasn't been able to publish a lot of info on this rather obscure but still interesting segment of the Pennsy, but who knows what is lurking out there waiting to be published? Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:33:32 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR logo on NS engines NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > Saw a first for me in the Chicago area although I haven't been along NS > tracks in awhile. SW1500 in CR paint (#1614 I believe) had a 6" square white > box with the intertwined PRR in black under the number. Every other engine I > have seen has a 6" by 12" white block with PRR just like it is printed. The > print font they used was pretty close to the old PRR style. Somebody has a > sense of history at NS or CR. I saw the logo on a 6 axle road unit last summer as the second unit in a train on the Conemaugh Line going east through Aspinwall, Pa. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine Leave it to the computer people to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It's that kind of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 19:40:06 -0500 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR logo on NS engines Sure wish the 6" white square box was a 6" high white keystone-shaped box... NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > Saw a first for me in the Chicago area although I haven't been along NS > tracks in awhile. SW1500 in CR paint (#1614 I believe) had a 6" square white > box with the intertwined PRR in black under the number. Every other engine I > have seen has a 6" by 12" white block with PRR just like it is printed. The > print font they used was pretty close to the old PRR style. Somebody has a > sense of history at NS or CR. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] B S railroad Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 22:26:59 -0800 I have recently viewed a photo of the B&S railroad bridge crossing over the Philadelphia and Erie railroad. The P&E, a predecesor to the PRR, built the original shops at Renovo yards. I collect information and photos on the Renovo yards. Does anyone know for what the initials B & S stand? Thanks! Greg Stone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 04:14:02 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] B S railroad --- Greg Stone wrote: > I have recently viewed a photo of the B&S railroad > bridge crossing over the > Philadelphia and Erie railroad. If the bridge was at Sinnemahoning, PA, the initials stand for Buffalo and Susquehanna. On its way north from DuBois, B&S followed Bennett's Branch of the Sinnemahoning Creek to Driftwood, then the main stream to Sinnemahoning, crossed the creek and P&E, followed the First Fork to Wharton. Ran up the East Branch of the First Fork, then took off over the hills and a couple of switch-backs later arrived in Galeton. Became part of the B&O in 1932. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:49:27 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Jordon Spreaders Jerry asked: >When did the PRR acquire its first Jordon Spreaders? Ok, back in June of '96 I had an email converstation with a Mr. Peter Bowers who was writing a book on Jordan Spreaders...I was trying to find out if the Walthers model was appropriate, which it it not, without significant mods...here is what he said: "...Pennsylvania 1928 type "A" Jordan spreader is due any day now from Overland Models. Numbers of these units were PRR 497400-497404. Overland incorrectly lists them as PRR 97400-97404. If you model a 1940's era spreader, put the cab on the deck back of the stationary posts." On the basis of this, I picked up an undec of the Overland model...verrrry nice! It will sit on "mud track", in the Columbia PA yard...appropriately named due to the mud dripping off the spreaders stationed there for ditching assignments. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:52:32 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P5A's NDBPRR@aol.com asked: >Anybody know why the top P5A equalization links slope at about a 30 degree >angle on some units and is parallel to the rail on other units? Just happens...watch some videos and you'll see that they appear to be quite mobile, and the location is just where they end up... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Buffalo and Susquehanna Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:03:00 -0800 Thanks to all who responded to my request. The photo was of a bridge passing over the P&E. A particular thanks to Bob Netzlof for answering my next question before I asked it. --Greg Stone PRRTHS special interest: Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Gundy tower Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:09:08 -0800 When I responded to Dec 16 mail Re: Philly area questions, I misspelled the name of the tower east of Holmes. It should be Grundy, with an 'r' as the second letter. Sorry I can't help with pictures. Best I can offer is satelite imagery. It's just east of Bristol. The interlocking limits straddle the Pennsylvania Turnpike overpass. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=12&T=1&X=642&Y=5551&Z=18&W=2 John > ---------- > From: NDBPRR@aol.com[SMTP:NDBPRR@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 11:40 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Gundy tower > > are there any pictures posted anywhere of Gundy tower? Thanks > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------- Dec 16 mail: The below response is not correct. Holmes is railroad east of Zoo, ie closer to New York. To answer your questions, listed below is from 30th st station to NY. There are diagrams of each interlocking listed on Mark Bej's site. Penn (30th st) Zoo N Phila Shore (Frankfort Jct) Ford Holmes (Holmesburg Jct) Gundy Morris (Trenton cutoff) Fair (Trenton) Millham Nassau (Princeton Jct) Midway County (New Brunswick) Edison/Lincoln (Metuchen) Union (Rahway) Elmora (Elizabeth) Lane Hunter Dock (Newark) Hudson Portal A (Penn station) There must have been freight traffic on the chestnut hill branch. There were plenty of industrial sidings. Again, see chestnut hill map on Mark's site. Penn interlocking controlled the lower level of 30th st. Broad interlocking controlled the upper level. John > ---------- > From: Sean121982@aol.com[SMTP:Sean121982@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 4:04 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Philly area questions > > In a message dated 12/16/99 12:06:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, > NDBPRR@aol.com > writes: > > << Was it North > Philadelphia, Shore, Holmes in order? >> > > Holmes is actually farther south of Zoo interlocking. I'd estimate it's 5 > or > 6 miles south of Zoo. > > Sean McD > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh(Penn station) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:15:07 -0800 http://198.30.209.3/amtrak/Amtrak.html has a 1996 picture. John > ---------- > From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu[SMTP:vck@andrew.cmu.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:33 PM > To: MSand17545@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh(Penn station) > > --On Die, 28. Dez 1999 21:52 +0000 MSand17545@aol.com wrote: > > > I was wondering does amtrak still own and operate the penn station > in > > Pittsburgh? Or did they replace it? thanks for the help! > > Do you know of any web sites that have a picture of it? if so email me > the > > > url. > > Although AMTRAK still operates its passenger operations from a nicely done > street-level lobby in the original station, the main building is owned by > a > private concern which converted it to luxury apartments (called, likely > enough, "The Pennsylvanian") several years ago. Unfortunately, the entire > building, except for the AMTRAK area, is off limits to the public, doors > locked, security guard, etc. You can, however, still walk under the > wonderful portico on your way from the MLK, JR. Busway stop (former > Panhandle tracks) down to Grant Street. > > Although I haven't seen a recent picture of the beautifully cleaned > present-day Penn Station, there is a ca. 1910 view at the Library of > Congresses American Memory web site, or you can go to my own website, > Vagel > Keller's Industrial Heritage Homepage, http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk > and > scroll down to "A Pittsburgh Retrospective" which has a copy of that > image. > > 'best, > Vagel > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Catenary poles Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:22:59 -0800 Correct. > ---------- > From: BigBeerBob@aol.com[SMTP:BigBeerBob@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 6:55 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Re: Catenary poles > > Between Overbrook and Paoli some of the cat poles are "telescoping" pipes, > > with cables suspended across the tracks to hold the wires. Is this from > the > original 1915 (or thereabouts) construction, design superseded by the > familiar "H" beam structures? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:07:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Limedale Tower From: EJ Caylor Photos of Limedale Tower were added today, check it out! Look under Penn Central Main Line. E.J. Caylor Central Indiana Railroad Information Network http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 18:38:05 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Arrival of my Athearn Mike Hello list, My Athearn Mike finally arrived on Friday, New Year's Eve. I'm glad to finally have the engine. It runs superbly; sprung drivers at this price point are very nice to have. The engine runs very quietly compared to my repowered Bowser steamers, but seems to have a bit less power. For those of you rivet counters (which would include myself), my engine is numbered for the 9630. While the headlight is in the right position for a 1940s appearance, the headlight has angled number boards and a number plate on the bracket (perfect for a B&O Q3). The handrails are in the original USRA configuration, without junction boxes, and the generator is also in the original USRA configuration, in back of the steam dome. The engine also has steam and signal lines on the pilot deck, allowing for use in passenger service (again, perfect for some of B&O's Q3 class), which PRR did with a few L1s class, but none of the L2s class (so far as I can tell). None of these items is a very big deal, but correcting them would best be done on an undecorated model (or with the Bowser USRA light Mike, which comes in kit form and is very amenable to detail changes). The only thing I added was a front coupler, following the directions in the December 1999 MR; I thought about changing some or all of the details, but in this case, the advantages of having a ready to run DCC compatible engine outweighed the minor detail changes (at least for now). Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:02:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West MofW, Cabin lists In a message dated 12/17/99 4:49:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: << Ken and list, Not familiar w/ the three digit code.>> That three-number code in Ken's list is a new one on me. However, if you think about it, coding nonrevenue equipment by some arbitrary code could be a lot more descriptive than, say, recording the AAR Mechanical Code. It could successfully account for a sleeper converted to a particular kind of work diner, or for a gondola cut down to the deck like a flatcar and then with rub rails for a crawler crane. << However, ownership makes sense as all of the leased lines owned their equipment until February 1942 when it was acquired by the PRR (At least that was the date for the E&P and I always assumed it was for the remainder of the other leased lines too). Prior to 1942 the cars marked PRR ownership were used by/assigned to the companies that the PRR actually owned, not leased. This multi ownership scheme is the reason why there is no continuity of car numbers by class. The continuity of car numbering was by owning company, this car numbering continuity is also true to some extent with the revenue fleet. With the data you have at hand we should be able to crack the owning company MW equipment numbering code/scheme. I have also been promised a similar list with about the same number of cars, perhaps it is the same list, hopefully it is different. Unfortunately the sender of this list has told be that the car class designations are missing. This (These) lists could be the MW roster Rosetta stone. Does your list include both the nine-hundred thousand (Lines West) as well as the four-hundred thousand (Lines East) series? Al >> Al, You and Ken are blowing my mind with the thought that work equipment and cabin number series might be grouped by owner or operating company beyond either owned lines vs. leased lines or perhaps either Lines East or Lines West. Let me go out on a limb here--- the following is a mix of fact and interpretation, and I assume that with Ken's list you could really improve on the generalizations I've made here... The above discussion reminded me that, looking at an large-scale database of PRR freight cars I've been building, it's clear/obvious/easy-to-guess that car numbers up to 499999 were "Lines East" (OK, owned lines), and numbers 500,000 and up look like Lines West (virtually all of which were leased up to 1918 or so). Imagine a listing of cars and groups of cars very much like the Equipment Register, but combining cars from all periods of PRR system history -- that's the "document" I've been looking at, produced from my database. Looking at this "alltime Equipment Register", we notice right away: 1. Cars with reporting marks of "Pennsylvania Lines" or "Vandalia" fit right into the familiar number series you might see in a 1940 - 1960 ORER. 2. All these cars appear from 500,000 up. 3. Most earlier (circa 1910 and earlier) subsidiary reporting marks had their own numbering schemes, often in four or five digits, that generally were not coordinated with systemwide numbering. These reporting marks include NC, PCC&StL, PFtW&C, C&P, GR&I. OK, these observations really aren't any big surprise, especially if you've spent time on the Freight Car List where the real experts on this reside. But let me expand my interpretation of the number series I see in my indexing: 1) 000001-475000 PRR/Lines East revenue cars 2) 475808-479815 PRR/Lines East cabin cars, including all the all-steel ones. 3) 480000-484999 more PRR revenue cars 4) 485497-486751 more Lines East cabin cars (wood or wood-sheathed). 5) 488949-499668 Lines East work equipment and now for the second act: 6) 500860-564594 pre-X29 boxcars, especially PL and VAN 7) 566091-581799 X29's allocated to Lines West 8) 600000-620999 used in the 1950's for "leased builds or rebuilds" program. I have as yet no clear evidence that Lines West ever used this number series back in its history 9) 647650-648338 KF stock cars (Lines West?) 10) 677216-748661 ancient hoppers (to H25) from Lines West 11) 775416-823432 Lines West gons (GR, GLa, G22) 12) 980000-983000 LW cabins (N6b, N6a, more ?) 13) 996348 a single "Pennsylvania Lines" NE cabin car So the question is, can we do better than this? Does Ken's list offer any help? Al, you will notice right away that the Lines West work equipment is missing; that's because my index seems to have captured no members of it. I could guess that it lies above 983000, but I'm surprised I have indexed no pictures/mentions of it. Doesn't it stand to reason we should have some pix of at least G22's or earlier ex-LW gondolas on hand? Don't such numbers exist in John LaRue's catalog of prints? Weren't there once derricks in the 99XXXX series? I'm dumbfounded at this omission. Comments, anyone? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:02:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Planning LWFFII Hi Tom, Hoping to see you in Dayton the 16th for a repeat of my slide show on the Panhandle in Dayton. Some thoughts/comments to offer on the LWFF2 notes I received: In a message dated 1/2/2000 6:54:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << I talked to Dan Adair today and we came to some conclusions: 1-Due to personal conflicts and the PRRT&HS meeting the first of May, it would be best to postpone LWFF-II until Sept or early Oct.>> Yes, a date should be selected soonest, or at least those weekends that conflict with announced rail events should be shunned. I'm not sure if we should also be wary of OSU football weekends (considering attendance, not necessarily conflict for motels). I'll start the ball soon with a "list of weekends to avoid". << 2-Our best candidate for a location would be a hall in Delaware on the Ohio Wesleyan campus. Dave of Dave's books has said he could get us a place...free.>> Great. << 3-I would call the OC and see if we can have it on a Sat when they have an excursion on the following Sunday . This would allow those that come to Central Ohio for the weekend to also get a ride on the Panhandle.>> Desirable -- also, is Marion still the high-traffic site it used to be? (Ask Joe Slanser about this) << 4-Possible presentations could include: 1-Dan on the history in the Columbus area (we did not discuss this tonite, but I know Dan has gobs of slides!), 2-Dan's brother Dave on the Cleveland & Marietta branch,and 3-I might see if OC could send some one to talk about the recent history and future plans for their operations on their former PRR lines. Also, a while ago, we had kicked around a self guided auto tour of the RR history of Columbus. I am sure we can get a free Franklin County map for everyone and add a supplement on what used to be. Those that want to can meditate on the old PRR yards as they drive over them on I-670.>> I wish I had an easy way to get each attendee a color copy of an 1893 Columbus map. It was issued by the N&W, and shows what Columbus was like before the grand remodeling of the WWI boom. Among the goodies are Pennsy facilities and track layouts most of us have never seen, since our grandparents were at best youngsters at the time. << All this is very tentative, but I was going to call the OC in a day or so. I'll hold off until you guys reach an agreement on where and when. Please let me know what you guys think. I am a minor player in all this. Fred >> Best wishes in all of this, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:52:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West MofW, Cabin lists Rick: One exception to your list is boom car M.W. 348339 in an undated photo in Wayner's "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" pg 60 top. It is accompanied by GR class #286568. This would seem to indicate that some PRR MOW cars were numbered with M.W. prefix. Could this have been a Lines West practice? Page 142 of Alexander's "The Pennsylvania Railroad" shows a 1910 photo of a KF #125060. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] What did you get for Christmas? Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:41:06 -0500 This was a timely Christmas for me . I received a very nice 15" wall clock depicting a T-1, four (4) Lionel wall clocks and a Spectrum PRR combine ( I have 12 of those little combine devils now! I'm still waiting for the - any - Spectrum cars with AC) Lew PS Happy New Year! White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Doug Kisala To: PRR talk Date: Saturday, December 25, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: [PRR] What did you get for Christmas? >Hello list, > >Amongst other goodies (the spectacular 2000 Ghosts >Calendar of classic warbirds among them), the book >Pennsy Streamliners and a PRR calendar arrived from >Santa. My calendar has a great shot of a T1 and K4s >doubleheader waiting for a train in 1948. > >What did you get for your PRR Christmas? > >Doug > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:00:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Planning LWFFII In a message dated 00-01-03 20:16:56 EST, you write: > << 2-Our best candidate for a location would be a hall in Delaware on the > Ohio Wesleyan campus. Dave of Dave's books has said he could get us a > place...free.>> This is great. I live just a couple of miles away. With my luck while you're all in there talking trains I'll be highballing 10,000 tons of coal westbound on the C&O through town. :-) > Desirable -- also, is Marion still the high-traffic site it used to be? ( > Ask > Joe Slanser about this) It may not rate as many trains as it did when the EL was in town, but there is still an appreciable amount, and well worth the visit. I know we run 10-20 trains a day, probably the same number on NS as well. Rick Rowlands ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Mines Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:10:50 -0500 March and April 1982 issues of Railroad Model Craftsman did a well illustrated two part Hard Coal series by Chuck Youngkurth. It deals with Pennsylvania anthracite and is fairly short and comprehensive given the depth of the subject (bad pun!). Chuck did his usual fine job. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: velure To: Mike Morrow ; PRR-Talk Date: Monday, December 27, 1999 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Mines >> Is there a website or book where I can locate photos of coal mines or >> tipples (not anthracite) preferably in Pennsylvania? >> >> Mike > >http://theoldminer.virtualave.net/county.html > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul W. Schopp" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West MofW, Cabin lists Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:01:05 -0500 Gentlemen: I just hung up the telephone with Al Buchan and he asked me to inform everyone that he has been off-line since December 30th with a non-Y2K computer problem. He expects to be reconnected in about three days and will "catch-up" with his messages at that time. He appreciates your understanding. Best regards, Paul W. Schopp spanky@voicenet.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:39:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR AP-20/AFP-20's Bil and all, This is what I had not hoped to hear. My brother and I were dicussing the PA's last night and we felt that perhaps 5750A and 5751A taken out of service on bad order or perhaps used for parts. Although these engines caught the eyes of many for there unique design their service records were less than equal to their beauty. I ahve a technical question perhaps you can answer. There is a small rectangular exhaust port ( for a lack of a better term) on the firemans side abve and behind the tapered rim piece. I have been told that this was the "compressor exhaust port", is that the correct termanology? Life Like did not tool it on their PA/B's and I had to add it to mine for my article but I want to make sure what I reference it as is correct. Thanks in advance, Greg Martin BTW anyone seen pictures of the illusive 5750 and 5751 after 1952? I would love to view them as they were modified. ============================================================ Bill you wrote: << FYI the 5751 was bad ordered at East Altoona Enginehouse in the summer of 1958 (Don't know how long it had been sitting there prior to that time) and it was never returned to service. It was 5 stripe tuscan and sometime in 1959 it was pushed through the brick wall of the enginehouse so had a load of bricks on its nose when it was finally dragged out kicking and screaming to be cut up and sent to Schenectady as trade in fodder on the DL-640s in 1961. Quite a few other locomotives have suffered the same fate of being hit from behind and driven through the enginehouse wall. The steam locomotives used to leak steam into their cylinders and propel themselves through the wall! Bill Volkmer >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Hutchinson Subject: [PRR] Camp Kilmer Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:22:17 -0500 I am looking for any info (track diagrams, etc.) on the Camp Kilmer facility that was located in Edison (Stelton), NJ, on the PRR mainline. The facility was built in 1942. David Hutchinson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 01:36:30 +1100 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: RE: [PRR] First PRR Web Site in 21st Century Greetings to the group, Just got back and saw this note from Jerry. As far as I know there are no PRR sites in New Zealand, which does make me the closest site to the international dateline, in Melbourne, Australia. (Southeast coast for those of you who don't know your Australian geography) Thanks for the congrats. I suppose I should point out that the server my site is on is Linux Apache (Not Sillysoft). Pop in and have a look at it, there are plans for a major revamp in March. I already have some material Cheers, and Happy New Year Mick Molloy On 31/12/99 at 09:01 Jerry Britton wrote: >I could be mistaken, but as far as I know, Mike Molloy's is the first PRR >web site to enter the new millennium... > > http://keystone.alphalink.com.au/pennsy.htm > >Throughput is great...congratulations! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron Kuzemchak" Subject: [PRR] Aero Train Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:39:29 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BF569F.FAE89AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi-Need info on the Aero train used by PRR in the mid-50's. Any help = will be appreciated. Ron ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BF569F.FAE89AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi-Need info on the Aero train used = by PRR in=20 the mid-50's.  Any help will be appreciated. =20 Ron
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BF569F.FAE89AC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] X-23, NX-23 and M.O.W Cars Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:54:12 -0500 Hello All; We at Rail Classics www.railclassics.com have updated our web site with new information on our X-23, NX23 and M.O.W cars project. In addition, we are finalizing the unit price on the X-40 Box Car Project. Your dealers will have the information in the next few weeks. That project is going very well and will exceed your expectations, as did the R-50b Express Car. We are also reviewing the data we have collected for the F-38 project and we feel it is almost ready to be sent to our builder. As you know we have secured the drawings for the load you see on the F-38 and that load will be also available. We found out that both loads made one unit. It was part of a press that we hear is still being used. Thank You, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:24:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train In a message dated 01/04/2000 9:37:15 AM Central Standard Time, rkzoom@mail.microserve.net writes: << Hi-Need info on the Aero train used by PRR in the mid-50's. Any help will be appreciated. Ron >> Ron, can you be a little more specific in your question? Are you looking for schedules, construction, what else? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:21:56 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive #5540 - Help Needed... >My life-long Membership Number in the PRRT&HS is 5540. I am almost certain >this number was assigned to a PRR T1 4-4-4-4 class steam locomotive. > >As a matter of pride and (accurate) preservation, I would like to model this >specific locomotive by the upcoming PRRT&HS 2000 convention. Unfortunately, >I have been unsuccessful in locating photographs or assignments of this >specific locomotive. Any help regarding pictorial or service history of this >locomotive would greatly be appreciated. Bummer Dude! Why? Well, as noted, this loco is a late Baldwin product...I assume that you were going to use the Bowser loco as a starting point? Well, as noted on this list when released, the combination of the modified front end (no portholes) with fully shrouded tender was VERY rare! Basically it was only seen on a few late Altoona builts (photographic evidence for #5511, which is the one I chose to model). Your options for modeling #5540 from the Bowser kit are: 1) Completely rebuild the front pilot to the porthole configuration, and go with the tender...for an as built loco. or 2) Major reconstruction of the kit tender or scratchbuild a new tender to represent the deshrouded tender that would be appropriate for the non-portholed pilot era for #5540. Let us know what you decide ! BTW, I'm #5733, a G5s...and the Bowser tender problem rears its UGLY head there too! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 13:33:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive #5540 - Help Needed... From: Jerry Britton On 1/4/00 1:21 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Let us know what you decide ! BTW, I'm #5733, a G5s...and the Bowser > tender problem rears its UGLY head there too! I'm #6111, one of the two prototype T-1's. I, too, have my work cut out for me as I need a whole new front end! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 13:48:02 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Coal Goes To War Slogan Does anyone know if the "Coal Goes To War" herald was used on Pennsy hopper cars during the Korean War? Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 14:06:04 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train Greetings to Ron and the group, Bowser (Montoursville, PA Web Site at http://www.bowser-trains.com/ ) sells the Aero Train in PRR livery as well as in the other roads liverys that tried out GM's idea. I believe they aquired the old Varney dies to produce this product. Specific information on Bowser's Aero Train product can be found at http://www.bowser-trains.com/EMRS%20pages/Aero.htm The PRR did not own the Aero Train equipment. GM allowed the PRR and some other railroads to test the equipment out with the hope of some sales. This did not occur. The two demonstrator sets of Aero Train equipment went to the Rock Island eventually. No other sets were produced. The Aero Train equipment ran on the PRR for less than a year. I believe it was during 1956. That's all the info I can recall from the top of my head. Hopes this helps. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 10:39 AM 01/04/2000 -0800, Ron Kuzemchak wrote: >Hi-Need info on the Aero train used by PRR in the mid-50's. Any help will be appreciated. Ron > Ron ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum PRR combines Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:17:40 -0500 Your question preempts my own research. Obviously, I can't have 12 cars with the same number. I would like to kitbash a few cars to create something a little different, too. I remember these cars as used, when I was a boy, and I believe I rode on one about 1950, out of the Lancaster station. They are of the PB70 class, but I don't know if the series is a PB70, PB70R, PB70C or PB70DR. I must also search the numbering for 1952, my year of modeling, to determine which car had the number 9920. Unless someone on the chat group knows this right up front, allow me some time to check. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: jpbtrans To: lew matt Date: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum PRR combines >Dear serious combine owner, > > Could you or someone else from the list tell me if the Spectrum >model is a correct model for what the PRR used, and if the number would >be correct for that style of car. I figure someone who has that many >combines, must have some info I could use. > > Thanks for the help. > > Jon Anderson > jpbtrans@gateway.net > >lew matt wrote: >> >> This was a timely Christmas for me . I received a very nice 15" wall clock >> depicting a T-1, four (4) Lionel wall clocks and a Spectrum PRR combine I >> have 12 of those little combine devils now! I'm still waiting for the - >> any - Spectrum cars with AC) >> >> Lew >> >> PS Happy New Year! >> >> White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that >> markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and >> vegetables and herbs. >> We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA >> >> WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC >> GROWING TECHNIQUES >> E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our >> all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Doug Kisala >> To: PRR talk >> Date: Saturday, December 25, 1999 11:33 AM >> Subject: [PRR] What did you get for Christmas? >> >> >Hello list, >> > >> >Amongst other goodies (the spectacular 2000 Ghosts >> >Calendar of classic warbirds among them), the book >> >Pennsy Streamliners and a PRR calendar arrived from >> >Santa. My calendar has a great shot of a T1 and K4s >> >doubleheader waiting for a train in 1948. >> > >> >What did you get for your PRR Christmas? >> > >> >Doug >> > >> >_________________________________________________________ >> >Do You Yahoo!? >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:43:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train In a message dated 01/04/2000 1:19:50 PM Central Standard Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: << The PRR did not own the Aero Train equipment. GM allowed the PRR and some other railroads to test the equipment out with the hope of some sales. This did not occur. The two demonstrator sets of Aero Train equipment went to the Rock Island eventually. No other sets were produced. The Aero Train equipment ran on the PRR for less than a year. I believe it was during 1956. That's all the info I can recall from the top of my head. >> Drew is correct. Just a clarification, since I got confused myself over this: the two demonstrator sets went to the Rock Island who already had one set, so a total of three were built, all of which ended up on the Rock. I believe one set demoed on Pennsy and NYC, the other was the UP's City of Las Vegas for a while. 1956 is the right year for Pennsy. Dan Cupper's website says 1956-57 period. He confirms the train in public timetables of Februrary, March, and April of 1956,stating it may have been in others as well. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:02:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train I believe one set demoed on Pennsy and NYC, the other was the UP's City of Las Vegas for a while. My understanding is the Aerotrain engine and cars at the Railroad Museum in Green Bay Wisconsin is the set that demoed on the PRR. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Those magnificant Decapods.... Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:02:26 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF56FF.62E09D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list, Just received the February Moder Railroader. Go out and buy it = immediately! If for no other reason than Frank Costanzi's fantastic = article dealing with his highly successful efforts in creating two = distinctly different I1s Hippos. First and foremost I found it to be a = great "how to" article plus neat things like a constant lighting diagram = and other jems. This just may cause me to finally finish those Bowser = kits I have lost track of (botched so badly I gave up on). My only = criticism (ducking my head) is why write an article where the motor used = is now discontinued? Mr. Costanzi's masterful treatment of this subject = is one of the finest I have ever seen. (BTW, the PRRT&HS did a wonderful = historical spread a few years back.) Thanks, Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF56FF.62E09D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list,
Just received the February Moder=20 Railroader. Go out and buy it immediately! If for no other reason = than=20 Frank Costanzi's fantastic article dealing with his highly successful = efforts in=20 creating two distinctly different I1s Hippos. First and foremost = I found=20 it to be a great "how to" article plus neat things like a constant = lighting=20 diagram and other jems. This just may cause me to finally finish=20 those Bowser kits I have lost track of (botched so badly I gave up = on). My=20 only criticism (ducking my head) is why write an article where the motor = used is=20 now discontinued? Mr. Costanzi's masterful treatment of this = subject=20 is one of the finest I have ever seen. (BTW, the PRRT&HS did a=20 wonderful historical spread a few years back.)
 
Thanks,
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF56FF.62E09D80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:12:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive #5540 - Help Needed... Jerry, << First Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Let us know what you decide ! BTW, I'm #5733, a G5s...and the Bowser > tender problem rears its UGLY head there too! Then Jerry (jerry@pennsyrr.com) writes: I'm #6111, one of the two prototype T-1's. I, too, have my work cut out for me as I need a whole new front end! >> Yea, don't we all, I started on mine about Thanksgiving, not that New Years is over I think I can start the rebuild program until next Thanksgiving. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron Kuzemchak" Subject: [PRR] Aero Train Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:20:31 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BF5755.BB610E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for all the information thus far-keep it coming. Just a 'novice' = at this point! ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BF5755.BB610E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for all the information thus = far-keep it=20 coming.  Just a 'novice' at this point!
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BF5755.BB610E80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 08:10:24 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Those magnificant Decapods.... With re to that constant lighting circuit, Has Frank and MR discovered some new laws of electricity? Not only won't the lights work on that circuit, neither will the motor! I fear that someone in the graphic arts department screwed up the original diagram, and no one caught the mistake. I think they were trying to diagram a "2-diode" drop using a shorted bridge rectifier. Its a great, easy trick. I've done several Bowser steam engines this way. It requires only the rectifier chip and so takes very little space. Its really only good for steam engines where you want the constant light on no matter which direction the engine is going. But the diagram in MR ain't it! My prediction, watch for a correction in the March issue. ((That's probably easier than my trying to do an ASCII diagram here ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== > Walt Prusick wrote: > > Dear list, > Just received the February Moder Railroader. Go out and buy it > immediately! If for no other reason than Frank Costanzi's fantastic > article dealing with his highly successful efforts in creating two > distinctly different I1s Hippos. First and foremost I found it to be a > great "how to" article plus neat things like a constant lighting > diagram and other jems. This just may cause me to finally finish > those Bowser kits I have lost track of (botched so badly I gave up > on). My only criticism (ducking my head) is why write an article where > the motor used is now discontinued? Mr. Costanzi's masterful > treatment of this subject is one of the finest I have ever seen. (BTW, > the PRRT&HS did a wonderful historical spread a few years back.) > > Thanks, > Walt Prusick -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:40:26 -0600 Drew McGee wrote, in part........ >Bowser (Montoursville, PA Web Site at http://www.bowser-trains.com/ ) sells >the Aero Train in PRR livery as well as in the other roads liverys that >tried out GM's idea. I believe they aquired the old Varney dies to produce >this product. Specific information on Bowser's Aero Train product can be >found at > >http://www.bowser-trains.com/EMRS%20pages/Aero.htm > The Bowser Aero Train comes as the power unit (locomotive?), two coaches, and the tail car. Extra coaches are available individually. The Bowser Aero Train is unpowered and the plastic wheels on the car (only two axels per car) do not turn freely. It is a project of considerable magnitude to make the Bowser train an operating train rather than a static display. Someone, and I do not remember who, makes a metal frame, motor, and drive train to power the Bowser unit. I purchased one and with adding as much lead as possible inside the power unit I was able to get a fair running Aero Train power unit. The coaches and tail car need a good deal of work. Metal wheels have to be added and the plastic journals worked to make the wheels free running, couplers added, and weight added to the very light cars to make them stay on track. Some additional cosmetic detailing needs to be done including adding decals of car numbers, correcting the window above the coach doors, paint correcting, etc. I purchased 3 extra coaches and now have a 6 car Areo Train pulled by the dcc decoder equiped power unit. The lighting effects on the power unit are an eye catcher. The lights accross the front of the unit are arranged like this OoXoO, where O is high beam headlight, o is low beam headlight, and X is a flashing red warning light. All are controlled individually via dcc. There were some good color pictures of the Aero Train in PRR livery on the front and rear of a "Keystone" issue a few years ago. I am in the process of building a new house, and all my railroad reference material, and models, are packed away for the duration, so I can't give a specific reference. Some photos also exist in one or more volumes of PDY. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:00:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Those magnificant Decapods.... In a message dated 01/04/2000 22:06:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, walpru@stargate.net writes: > My only criticism (ducking my head) is why write an article where the motor > used is now discontinued? In all probability this is a result of the article being bought by the publisher and then not being published for an extensive period of time. There are several articles I am aware of which have not been published for more than 18 months after they were bought and paid for. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:26:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train Ron, I don't know if you are looking for Model info or Prototype info or both. On the subject of Models I have the Varney Aerotrain that was originally made in the early 1950's. I first purchased an excellent condition boxed powered set in 1990 for $35.00, I think it was set #39. This contained the Head end power unit, two coaches and the tail car and track. I then was able to purchase the additional 7 coaches I needed at Train sales and shows. Most were undecorated but I was able to match the paint scheme pretty well. I also picked up an additional dummy aerotrain loco. These are all original Varney. Instead of pulling the whole train with the noisy original powered unit, I powered the dummy loco with a NorthWest Short Line (Sagami) Power truck and detailed the body shell. I added as much weight to the unit as possible so it could pull the whole 10 car train. It was still struggling so I installed metal wheelsets on the cars. The ability to pull the train was improved so much I was now able to place a small bit of weight in each car so they would track better as well. I placed false floors and windows in the cars and it looks pretty darn good. Can pull up a 3% grade too. The protoype when in Pennsy service was seen pulling either 8,9 or 10 coaches. I guess it all depended on passenger demand. I never seen a photo with less than 8. I spoke months ago here about a guy I knew that worked the 28th street yards in Pittsburgh as a mechanic. One of his jobs in the 1956 time period was to replace the brake shoes on the Aerotain. The Aerotrain was very hard on brake shoes. After the train arrived in Pittsburgh and before it headed back east he would routinly change the shoes. He had about 20 minutes to change as many as he could before the train had to leave. Luckily he said he had help to do this. The next time it would come in his routine was to do it all over again.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron Kuzemchak" Subject: [PRR] Aero Train Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:28:00 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF576F.EC04FF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Need the 'site' for the Aero Train that contains a great wealth of = pictures from the design to the actual train. Viewed it yesterday but = didn't record the site. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF576F.EC04FF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Need the 'site' for the Aero Train = that contains=20 a great wealth of pictures from the design to the actual train.  = Viewed it=20 yesterday but didn't record the site.
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BF576F.EC04FF00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:56:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Planning LWFFII Dan, Fred Rea has reported on his conversations with you in which he suggests a meeting at Delaware in the fall which I believe is about six months after the PRRT&HS convention. I think this timing of the LWFF should be written in stone as we're not in competition with the T&HS, and most of us would like to do both. The only exception is that year when the PRRT&HS convention is held in Steubenville, Cleveland, Columbus or points further west My health has not improved since last year and my financial situation has worsened considerably. I'm concentrating on a number of long-term projects to generate some income. The bottom line is, I won't be able to get things togther by myself. One bit of good news is that the Ohio Rehabilitation will pay for repairing and upgrading my PC that's been on the fritz since October. Once this is done, I will reenter the names of those who attended LWFF. Fred Rea, please let me know who to talk to about getting a hall at the college in Delaware. Booking on a Saturday is a good idea. If we could find a weekend where there's a Sunday Trainshow/flea market nearby, it'd help out the vendors a bit. All those wishing to help plan LWFF II please send me a message off list telling me your druthers. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: RE: [PRR] Those magnificant Decapods.... Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:48:01 -0500 Case in point. MR bought an article from me in Jan 98 and it won't be published before June 2000. > -----Original Message----- > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com [SMTP:SUVCWORR@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 10:01 AM > To: walpru@stargate.net; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Those magnificant Decapods.... > > In a message dated 01/04/2000 22:06:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > walpru@stargate.net writes: > > > My only criticism (ducking my head) is why write an article where the > motor > > used is now discontinued? > In all probability this is a result of the article being bought by the > publisher and then not being published for an extensive period of time. > There are several articles I am aware of which have not been published for > > more than 18 months after they were bought and paid for. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 19:00:27 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] New Road names and undecorated Athearn Mikes Hello list, I checked Athearn's web site today, and they have new road names listed for the USRA Mike. While PRR is not among them, they have listed an undecorated Mike with footboards and a high headlight, which would be perfect for those of you wanting to redetail the engine to resemble an L2s of the 1940s (or, dare I mention it, a B&O Q3). Apparently the first undecorated engines both had centered headlights (which would be appropriate for the L2s class as delivered). Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:51:21 -0700 Bill and everybody else that's interested, At one time Kemtron offered replacement journals for the Varney (now Bowser) Aerotrain, along with other details. I think that they even offered a remotor kit (done by Lindsay) for the locomotive. These of course were available in brass. I think that Precision, which currently has the entire Kemtron line, has the masters, and might even have some in stock. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 19:08:43 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Those magnificant Decapods.... --Boundary_(ID_h0uioACPUSUwr790BpSraw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt and the list, I also enjoyed the I1sa article. My one note of concern was the repowering and requartering. I've done three NWSL gearbox conversions so far (all 142-6 for my passenger power), and the article's instructions didn't do the challenges of requartering justice. All of my conversions operate well, but the learning curve can be steep to the mechanically challenged. I know this was probably done for space reasons, but something this challenging could have been another article. I think MR should have mentioned the Alco Products repower kits (assuming they'll be available in the future from whoever buys them). Having said that, Mr Costanzi's detailing of the engines was excellent and thorough. One question to the list, however; I also modelled a twin pump I1sa, and all of the photos I've seen of the twin pump versions have a running board over the right compressor. Mr. Costanzi's engine omitted the cover. Is there photographic evidence to prove or disprove this running board configuration? Doug Walt Prusick wrote: > Dear list,Just received the February Moder Railroader. Go out and buy > it immediately! If for no other reason than Frank Costanzi's fantastic > article dealing with his highly successful efforts in creating two > distinctly different I1s Hippos. First and foremost I found it to be a > great "how to" article plus neat things like a constant lighting > diagram and other jems. This just may cause me to finally finish those > Bowser kits I have lost track of (botched so badly I gave up on). My > only criticism (ducking my head) is why write an article where the > motor used is now discontinued? Mr. Costanzi's masterful treatment of > this subject is one of the finest I have ever seen. (BTW, the PRRT&HS > did a wonderful historical spread a few years back.) Thanks,Walt > Prusick --Boundary_(ID_h0uioACPUSUwr790BpSraw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt and the list,

I also enjoyed the I1sa article.  My one note of concern was the repowering and requartering.  I've done three NWSL gearbox conversions so far (all 142-6 for my passenger power), and the article's instructions didn't do the challenges of requartering justice.  All of my conversions operate well, but the learning curve can be steep to the mechanically challenged.  I know this was probably done for space reasons, but something this challenging could have been another article.  I think MR should have mentioned the Alco Products repower kits (assuming they'll be available in the future from whoever buys them).

Having said that, Mr Costanzi's detailing of the engines was excellent and thorough.
One question to the list, however; I also modelled a twin pump I1sa, and all of the photos I've seen of the twin pump versions have a running board over the right compressor.  Mr. Costanzi's engine omitted the cover.  Is there photographic evidence to prove or disprove this running board configuration?

Doug

Walt Prusick wrote:

Dear list,Just received the February Moder Railroader. Go out and buy it immediately! If for no other reason than Frank Costanzi's fantastic article dealing with his highly successful efforts in creating two distinctly different I1s Hippos. First and foremost I found it to be a great "how to" article plus neat things like a constant lighting diagram and other jems. This just may cause me to finally finish those Bowser kits I have lost track of (botched so badly I gave up on). My only criticism (ducking my head) is why write an article where the motor used is now discontinued? Mr. Costanzi's masterful treatment of this subject is one of the finest I have ever seen. (BTW, the PRRT&HS did a wonderful historical spread a few years back.) Thanks,Walt Prusick
--Boundary_(ID_h0uioACPUSUwr790BpSraw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Road names and undecorated Athearn Mikes Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:49:42 -0500 To all, You can be sure that the 2-8-2 for PRR is USRA Light (Genesis # G9003) marked Pennsylvania #9630.....I took this off the end of the box ! And they do run nice..... Jerry.....might have some......check with him on the (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) location. If not I bet he can order them !!!! Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 7:44 PM Subject: [PRR] New Road names and undecorated Athearn Mikes >Hello list, > >I checked Athearn's web site today, and they have new road names listed >for the USRA Mike. While PRR is not among them, they have listed an >undecorated Mike with footboards and a high headlight, which would be >perfect for those of you wanting to redetail the engine to resemble an >L2s of the 1940s (or, dare I mention it, a B&O Q3). Apparently the >first undecorated engines both had centered headlights (which would be >appropriate for the L2s class as delivered). > >Doug > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "walter mcwilliams" Subject: [PRR] Salamanca Branch Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:31:32 -0500 I was wondering if anyone has track charts for this little known branch that ran the Alllegheney River from oil city north? Thanks Walt McWilliams ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 19:58:27 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train From: "Doug and Marianne" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3029947107_254082_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe that the Aero Train covered a daily (mostly daylight) round trip between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. Ii probably did not go on to New York due to the problems with diesel exhaust in the New York tunnels. There are plenty of pictures of it along the main line within Pennsylvania at locations such as Rockville Bridge and Horseshoe Curve. I suspect that 1956 saw a lot of railfan photographers out to capture the last of steam. The Aero Train was novel enough to merit a few frames of film. Doug N. --MS_Mac_OE_3029947107_254082_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Aero Train
I believe that the Aero Train covered a daily (mostly daylight)= round trip between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.  Ii probably did not g= o on to New York due to the problems with diesel exhaust in the New York tun= nels.  

There are plenty of pictures of it along the main line within Pennsylvania = at locations such as Rockville Bridge and Horseshoe Curve.  I suspect t= hat 1956 saw a lot of railfan photographers out to capture the last of steam= .  The Aero Train was novel enough to merit a few frames of film.

Doug N.
--MS_Mac_OE_3029947107_254082_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 00:01:41 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train Doug and Marianne wrote: > There are plenty of pictures of it along the main line > within Pennsylvania at locations such as Rockville Bridge > and Horseshoe Curve. I suspect that 1956 saw a lot of > railfan photographers out to capture the last of steam. The > Aero Train was novel enough to merit a few frames of film. Somewhere there is a picture of the Aero Train on the Panhandle Bridge in Pittsburgh doing a turn around move in daylight. I thought it was in "The Pennsy In The Steel City" by Ken Kobus and Jack Consoli but I was wrong. Maybe it is the sequel book, "The Pennsy's Golden Triangle" by the same authors, but I don't have a copy to look in. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Aerotrain Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:58:55 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF581B.E1231FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Patrick & List, Correct, bottom of page 29, "The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden = Triangle" (by Kobus and Consoli) does have a daylight shot of the = Aerotrain in downtown Pgh. looks like it is leaving Pennsy Station = headed toward Monon tower, which the author attributes to a probable = turnaround move. Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF581B.E1231FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Patrick & List,
 
Correct, bottom of page 29, "The = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad's Golden Triangle" (by Kobus and Consoli) does have a daylight = shot of=20 the Aerotrain in downtown Pgh. looks like it is leaving Pennsy Station = headed=20 toward Monon tower, which the author attributes to a probable turnaround = move.
 
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF581B.E1231FC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] South Bend Branch Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:59:00 -0500 Dear Gang: Would anyone have a track chart of the South Bend branch. In particular, I am interested in from Plymouth, Indiana to South Bend. I am modeling this portion of the branch and a track chart would useful. If any of you do have this track chart, I would be happy to pay for all copying, handling, and shipping costs. Thank you in advance!! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana (Modeling the PRR Fort Wayne line and South Bend branch in northern Indiana) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] South Bend Branch Date: Thu, 6 Jan 100 09:31:29 -0500 (EST) Andrews, Ted scribit: > > Dear Gang: > > Would anyone have a track chart of the South Bend branch. In particular, I > am interested in from Plymouth, Indiana to South Bend. I am modeling this > portion of the branch and a track chart would useful. > > If any of you do have this track chart, I would be happy to pay for all > copying, handling, and shipping costs. Ted, I don't happen to have a track chart per se. However, I do have some interlocking diagrams. As it turns out, John Cooper has just completed his review/cleanup/editing. I can turn to these next. They'll be up on the web site. The general location is http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ and specifically under http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_col_log_branch.html -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] South Bend Branch Date: Thu, 6 Jan 100 09:38:20 -0500 (EST) Andrews, Ted scribit: > Would anyone have a track chart of the South Bend branch. Ouch. Sorry. Forgot one other credit. The maps are from Steve Long, who has graciously lent them to me for scanning and uploading. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:51:51 -0600 (CST) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] Those magnificant Decapods.... I finally sat down and read the decapod article last night. Proving that great minds think alike, a lot of the things I've done, he also did. And, I picked up some tidbits that will be very useful as I finish my engines. BUT.... why did he leave those "braces" under the cab? They don't exist on 4483, and if they are not removed, you cannot possibly install the distributing valve and equalizing reservoir under the engineer's side if they are in place. It is also difficult to install the piping leading forward from them. With the "brace" in place on the fireman's side, you cannot install the type of stoker that is found on 4483, and it is difficult to install the injector equipment properly. Also, looks like he mounted the muffler on the left side, contrary to what the blueprints specify. I have not gone through all my photos, but I think Doug is correct that the runningboard went over the right side compressor. That is the way I built my engine. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Salamanca Branch Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:36:34 -0500 You might try Dave's RR Paper. http://trainsite.8m.com/ The PRR Buffalo Line 1945 track chart has branches for that area, but I don't recall about the Salamanca Branch. Dave responds to e-mail questions overnight usually. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: walter mcwilliams To: PRR-Talk ; prr-talk Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 9:30 PM Subject: [PRR] Salamanca Branch >I was wondering if anyone has track charts for this little known branch that >ran the Alllegheney River from oil city north? > >Thanks >Walt McWilliams > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:08:36 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: LWFF2 Scheduling <> <> <> Wrongo, oh wise but demented Penn Central addict. It's the schduleing LWFF six months contra the PRRT&HS meet in general that I want set in stone. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Hutchinson Subject: [PRR] South Amboy Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:41:27 -0500 I am looking for track diagrams of the PRR South Amboy Yard, especially around the coal dumpers and heater house. David Hutchinson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:02:11 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] HH-1 modeling Hi Folks, A quick update on the PRR 2-8-8-2 (ex N&W Y-3) and the possibilities of using the LL P2K model. Just in time, Bob Hundeman provided an article (and drawings) on the Y-3 in the latest Mainline Modeler. Bob notes several important items: 1) Some Y-3 locos got "Y-5 front engines"...specifically, he notes PRR # 375 (nee N&W 2027) as having such. What does he mean? (as I read it, it sounded like the front engine was salavaged off a Y-5 and placed under a Y-3, but I don't think that's what happened) A softcover book I happen to have on the N&W Y series says that the Y-5 finally solved the low pressure steam problems of the previous Y class locos by adding a set of pipes in an inverted Y between the two front cylinders...note that the headlamp mounted on top of these...This book also states that some Y-3s were retrofitted with this pipe. Photographic evidence indicates that PRR #373 (nee N&W 2000) also had this pipe. A close examination of the Lifelike add, and the photo from the Chicago show in the latest (Feb) Model Railroader indicates that the LL P2K model has the Y-5 modification. 2) Some Y-3s were sold with 16,000 gal straight sill tenders, other with 18,000 gal fishbelly sill tenders. The PRR's were the later. As Hundeman states in his article, the LL P2K model has the rarer 16,000 gal, straight sill tender...ARRRRRGH! Why are we always to burdened by the wrong tender????? Way back in October, Bob Zoeller wrote: >N&W 2027 shown in PP1, was one of the six locos sold to PRR, but became >PRR 375. PRR 373, with slatted pilot, was ex-N&W 2000. >PRR 376 and 378 , with footboard pilots, were N&W 2034 and 2046, respectively. >To complete the roster, 374 and 377 were N&W 2008 and 2036, respectively. " The LL P2K model has the slat pilot. Therefore, if you can ignore the tender, the LL P2K Y-3 model can be used as a reasonable stand-in for HH-1 class locos #373 and 375, with a new, keystone number board, and a repaint to DGLE for the cab, boiler, and tender. I'm awaiting delivery of my "undec" (unlettered) version to see how difficult a kitbash of the 16,000 gal tender to an 18,000 gal tender will be...Of course, a friend just told me a rumor that LL might release the 2-8-8-2 in a PRR version...hmmm, with correct tender and paint??????? Anyone intetested in an unlettered N&W Y-3? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:37:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Those magnificant Decapods.... Doug and the List, I agree about pictures of the running board over the right pump. Assuming I have the right right, 4483 still has the running board in place. Check out my picture at: http://members.aol.com/rtsiller/4483rpmp.jpg Granted there are always exceptions to the standard, but here's the picture showing one way it was done. Rick doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << One question to the list, however; I also modelled a twin pump I1sa, and all of the photos I've seen of the twin pump versions have a running board over the right compressor. Mr. Costanzi's engine omitted the cover. Is there photographic evidence to prove or disprove this running board configuration? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:47:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] HH-1 modeling Bruce, list Do you know for a fact that this loco recieved the DGLE paint? I am assuing it did. I plan on converting mine to #373. I will have to look at the tender to see if a fish belly detail can be added with out major extending surgery. Someone on the list mentioned to me, I forgot who it was, that the LL Y-3 is only good for the PRR #373. It has something to do with the piping configuration on the pilot. I still have a lot of research to do before I do any work on my 2-8-8-2. By the way, does anyone recall the I1 or I1-sa number that recieved the tender from one of these Ex-N&W Y-3s after the Pennsy scrapped the locos? I remember seeing a photograph of one behind the 2-10-0 in service I believe on the Pan-Handle Div. I maybe able to find that photo next week as I think I remember where I saw it. That gives another modeling possiblity. Quick comment about the I1 in Model Railroader too. The author did a very nice job. I did catch 1 booboo and 1 small detail I would have changed. First the booboo. The number plate should not have a red background. Also, I would have used the PRR Bell from Precission Scale. That bell sits nice and low like it should. These two things can be changed fairly easy on a completed model.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:40:55 -0500 (EST) From: Don Murphy Subject: Re: [PRR] Salamanca Branch Bill, What part of the Renovo Division and in what year are you modeling? ------Original Message------ From: "Bill Bigler" To: walter mcwilliams , PRR-Talk , prr-talk Sent: January 6, 2000 4:36:34 PM GMT Subject: Re: [PRR] Salamanca Branch You might try Dave's RR Paper. http://trainsite.8m.com/ The PRR Buffalo Line 1945 track chart has branches for that area, but I don't recall about the Salamanca Branch. Dave responds to e-mail questions overnight usually. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: walter mcwilliams To: PRR-Talk ; prr-talk Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 9:30 PM Subject: [PRR] Salamanca Branch >I was wondering if anyone has track charts for this little known branch that >ran the Alllegheney River from oil city north? > >Thanks >Walt McWilliams > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". The Renovo Dispatcher Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:01 -0500 (EST) From: Don Murphy Subject: Re: [PRR] Salamanca Branch Bill, What part of the Renovo Division and in what year are you modeling? ------Original Message------ From: "Bill Bigler" To: walter mcwilliams , PRR-Talk , prr-talk Sent: January 6, 2000 4:36:34 PM GMT Subject: Re: [PRR] Salamanca Branch You might try Dave's RR Paper. http://trainsite.8m.com/ The PRR Buffalo Line 1945 track chart has branches for that area, but I don't recall about the Salamanca Branch. Dave responds to e-mail questions overnight usually. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: walter mcwilliams To: PRR-Talk ; prr-talk Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 9:30 PM Subject: [PRR] Salamanca Branch >I was wondering if anyone has track charts for this little known branch that >ran the Alllegheney River from oil city north? > >Thanks >Walt McWilliams > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". The Renovo Dispatcher Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:45:01 -0500 (EST) From: Don Murphy Subject: Re: [PRR] Salamanca Branch Bill, What part of the Renovo Division and in what year are you modeling? ------Original Message------ From: "Bill Bigler" To: walter mcwilliams , PRR-Talk , prr-talk Sent: January 6, 2000 4:36:34 PM GMT Subject: Re: [PRR] Salamanca Branch You might try Dave's RR Paper. http://trainsite.8m.com/ The PRR Buffalo Line 1945 track chart has branches for that area, but I don't recall about the Salamanca Branch. Dave responds to e-mail questions overnight usually. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: walter mcwilliams To: PRR-Talk ; prr-talk Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 9:30 PM Subject: [PRR] Salamanca Branch >I was wondering if anyone has track charts for this little known branch that >ran the Alllegheney River from oil city north? > >Thanks >Walt McWilliams > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". The Renovo Dispatcher Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 21:20:51 -0600 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/05/00 Gentlemen, I realize this sounds like it belongs on the Rock Island RITSlist instead of this one, but it really wants to be corrected. The third Rock Island set was not an Aerotrain. The locomotive - and yes, it was a locomotive, CRI&P No. 1, was an LWT12, just like the two Aerotrain locomotives which became Rock Nos. 2 and 3. However, the train was an early version of the TALGOs introduced recently for service in Washington and Oregon. It was similar in appearance to an Aerotrain, but totally different in design and ride. I rode all three on the Rock Island, and while the Aerotrain ride was hard and rough, at least I didn't get seasick like I did on the TALGO. The seasickness may have been caused by the visual sensation of riding in a three car set which had no end walls between cars. It was like riding inside a snake with windows. The train had four or five such three car sets. Despite the similarity of the three locomotives, No. 1 could not be used on the Aerotrains. The rear coupler was not a standard design, but rather a special coupler like the sort sometimes used on rapid transit equipment. Further, because the TALGO cars had a very low floor, the couplers were mounted very low, somewhere near axle height - if the cars had axles, which they didn't. But this is getting pretty far from the Pennsy list, and I've said enough about the Rock, except that I commuted on these trains out of Englewood, where the Pennsy's PFW&C crossed the Route of the Rockets, and where I could watch the Pennsy (and the Central) while I waited for the dummy to take me to LaSalle Street. One Aerotrain worked the Pennsy, the other the Central, and then one of those went to the UP for a few months. Then both sets went to the Rock Island, and the observation ends were removed from the cars that had them, which I thought was a shame! Pat Egan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train From: Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:43:57 EST In a message dated 01/04/2000 1:19:50 PM Central Standard Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: << The PRR did not own the Aero Train equipment. GM allowed the PRR and some other railroads to test the equipment out with the hope of some sales. This did not occur. The two demonstrator sets of Aero Train equipment went to the Rock Island eventually. No other sets were produced. The Aero Train equipment ran on the PRR for less than a year. I believe it was during 1956. That's all the info I can recall from the top of my head. >> Drew is correct. Just a clarification, since I got confused myself over this: the two demonstrator sets went to the Rock Island who already had one set, so a total of three were built, all of which ended up on the Rock. I believe one set demoed on Pennsy and NYC, the other was the UP's City of Las Vegas for a while. 1956 is the right year for Pennsy. Dan Cupper's website says 1956-57 period. He confirms the train in public timetables of Februrary, March, and April of 1956,stating it may have been in others as well. Bob Zoeller ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train From: Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:02:59 EST I believe one set demoed on Pennsy and NYC, the other was the UP's City of Las Vegas for a while. My understanding is the Aerotrain engine and cars at the Railroad Museum in Green Bay Wisconsin is the set that demoed on the PRR. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Those magnificant Decapods.... From: "Walt Prusick" Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:02:26 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF56FF.62E09D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list, Just received the February Moder Railroader. Go out and buy it = immediately! If for no other reason than Frank Costanzi's fantastic = article dealing with his highly successful efforts in creating two = distinctly different I1s Hippos. First and foremost I found it to be a = great "how to" article plus neat things like a constant lighting diagram = and other jems. This just may cause me to finally finish those Bowser = kits I have lost track of (botched so badly I gave up on). My only = criticism (ducking my head) is why write an article where the motor used = is now discontinued? Mr. Costanzi's masterful treatment of this subject = is one of the finest I have ever seen. (BTW, the PRRT&HS did a wonderful = historical spread a few years back.) Thanks, Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF56FF.62E09D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list,
Just received the February Moder=20 Railroader. Go out and buy it immediately! If for no other reason = than=20 Frank Costanzi's fantastic article dealing with his highly successful = efforts in=20 creating two distinctly different I1s Hippos. First and foremost = I found=20 it to be a great "how to" article plus neat things like a constant = lighting=20 diagram and other jems. This just may cause me to finally finish=20 those Bowser kits I have lost track of (botched so badly I gave up = on). My=20 only criticism (ducking my head) is why write an article where the motor = used is=20 now discontinued? Mr. Costanzi's masterful treatment of this = subject=20 is one of the finest I have ever seen. (BTW, the PRRT&HS did a=20 wonderful historical spread a few years back.)
 
Thanks,
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF56FF.62E09D80-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive #5540 - Help Needed... From: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:12:33 EST Jerry, << First Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Let us know what you decide ! BTW, I'm #5733, a G5s...and the Bowser > tender problem rears its UGLY head there too! Then Jerry (jerry@pennsyrr.com) writes: I'm #6111, one of the two prototype T-1's. I, too, have my work cut out for me as I need a whole new front end! >> Yea, don't we all, I started on mine about Thanksgiving, not that New Years is over I think I can start the rebuild program until next Thanksgiving. Greg Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 23:23:23 -0500 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] For Sale-sorry Sorry to post a for sale here, but wanted to give people on the PRR list an opportunity before I posted any of these items on ebay. Clearing some room out for other items. 1.HO scale Gem Factory PTD S-1 with box 2.O-MTH Railking K-4 #1361 with proto sound and box 3.Lionel G scale PRR 4-4-2 with Railsounds and box Please email me off list if you are interested. Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CAl2446507@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 23:27:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Talgo Model Hello List Ihave a model of the Talgo Train i would be glad to take a picture of it and e-mail it to anyone that is interested. Charlie Almond ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 22:41:19 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] I1sa with ex N&W tender Hello list, There's a picture of I1sa 4331 dated August 1943 on page 103 of Pennsy Power III with an ex N&W tender. It has the fishbelly underframe and six wheel trucks (having finally mastered most of the 110P75/110P75a variants, I'm resting before I tackle N&W tender classifications and variations). I wonder what tender went to the Y3? Perhaps the 90F82 from the I1sa? I'll bet that Don Harper knows the answer! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 22:43:33 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Pending Mantua PRR Atlantic Hello list, Have any of you seen pictures or renderings of Mantua's upcoming PRR Atlantic? I'm curious as to whether the engine will represent the E3sa/E7s classes with piston valves or if the engine will be backdated to a saturated/slide valve configuration with the old square headlights. I'm hoping for a modern version with a round headlight and representing the superheated configuration. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 00:05:11 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] Gloor Craft N6 cabin Does anyone know of a shop having a Gloor Craft N6 (preferably a b) in stock? Walthers shows out of stock. If not, might enough of us be interested to warrant another run? -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, & Chautauqua branch web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 01:02:34 -0500 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: [PRR] PRR/PC/CR pictures Howdy- I came across an shoe box with some old prints in it. If you'd like to see what was in it, go to: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/Found/found.htm I need help with: a) identifying some of the locations b) the disposition of these units under Conrail, and c) identifying the men who took some of the pictures, so they can get credit & copyrights. Thank you- Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] Re: Those magnificent Decapods Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 00:02:21 -0800 This concerns the I1 article in the Feb 2000 MR. I do not wish to have this taken as being overly critical of Frank Costanzi. He did a lot of good work making those two models, and he put a lot of effort into preparing his article to MR's high standards. Credit where credit is due, and he deserves it. However....... Both models are inaccurate in several areas. Having been published in prestigous MR establishes what he has done up there nearly at Ten Commandment level. His work will be used as a guide by others for years. This will not enhance the overall quality and accuracy of PRR steam models being built today and in the future, which is a shame. It also will tell Bowser that their efforts are good enough, which is hardly the truth. First, 4638. That tender is hideous no matter where he puts the doghouse. That's Bowser's fault, but Frank could have used Bowser's so called 130P75 for a more accurate model, albeit with a different engine number. Fireman's side: For as-built and into the 30's, the running board is ok, but after that it should be reconfigured around the feed water heater (hereafter FWH) and over the air compressor. His discussion about the correct BL (early) or BL2 (later) FWH is accurate. Again Bowser: I presume the incorrect BL4 was included in their Superdetail Kit; they have the correct BL2 available in the Cary line, # FW101 and FW102. (Note: the Precision Scale FWH is grossly out of scale for HO, as is the FWH on the Sunset models.) Nice touch with the open cab-front door! Although I haven't done a detailed review, I believe the blow down muffler was added later in life, and thus should not be on an engine with this running board configuration. Engineer's side: Again, the running board; up and over the train control box would be a later configuration. On an engine with FWH there should be no starter valve or injector on this side. (PFM did this on their I1, too.) The air line to the power reverse is a mystery. (PFM did this on their brass L1s, too, but I have been unable to find a verifying photo.) Bell: Precision Scale makes a very nice PRR air ringer, part no. 585-3155. Now 4510: No problem with this tender; several Decs had these at different times. Fireman's side: Same problem with the running board and FWH. This engine also has a mechanical lubricator which definitely was added at a later date. Engineer's side: Although there were several different running board configurations, if it goes up and over the train control box, it should also go over the air compressor. Frank's comments about the in-cab injector are in error; no injector on this side with a FWH on the engine. In fact, one of the characteristics of the Dec is the lack of anything under the engineer except small air brake components. The color photo shows round parts on the power reverse and train control box painted red; I could not see a reason to do that. So there it is. I just hope this isn't taken as biting critcism, or even as rivet counting--these are big pieces misapplied. As SPF's we have an interest in accurate portrayal of the PRR as it used to be. Unfortunately, this article did not further the state of the art of PRR modeling. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 06:31:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pending Mantua PRR Atlantic From: Jerry Britton On 1/6/00 11:43 PM, doug.kisala at (doug.kisala@mciworld.com) wrote: > Have any of you seen pictures or renderings of Mantua's upcoming PRR > Atlantic? I'm curious as to whether the engine will represent the > E3sa/E7s classes with piston valves or if the engine will be backdated > to a saturated/slide valve configuration with the old square > headlights. I'm hoping for a modern version with a round headlight and > representing the superheated configuration. There is a photo of it in the new MR. I don't have it with me, so I can't provide a page reference. Look in the Advertiser's Index in the back and lookup the Mantua ad. If you can figure out what class it best represents, please report that back to the list. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:52:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/PC/CR pictures In a message dated 1/6/00 11:17:06 PM Mountain Standard Time, jknorek@mail.msen.com writes: << If you'd like to see what was in it, go to: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/Found/found.htm >> Could make a connection to this server. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pending Mantua PRR Atlantic Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:51:59 -0500 I think the ad Jerry is referring to is on p. 150 of the JANUARY 2000 MR. But I'm afraid I can't relate it to a PRR class. My railroad era is early 60's First Generation Pennsy Diesels. I must yield to the steam experts. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: doug.kisala ; PRR-Talk Date: Friday, January 07, 2000 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pending Mantua PRR Atlantic >On 1/6/00 11:43 PM, doug.kisala at (doug.kisala@mciworld.com) wrote: > >> Have any of you seen pictures or renderings of Mantua's upcoming PRR >> Atlantic? I'm curious as to whether the engine will represent the >> E3sa/E7s classes with piston valves or if the engine will be backdated >> to a saturated/slide valve configuration with the old square >> headlights. I'm hoping for a modern version with a round headlight and >> representing the superheated configuration. > >There is a photo of it in the new MR. I don't have it with me, so I can't >provide a page reference. Look in the Advertiser's Index in the back and >lookup the Mantua ad. > >If you can figure out what class it best represents, please report that back >to the list. Thanks. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy N6b Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:11:37 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF58EF.33AD80E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jerry and list, I attempted a Gloor-Craft model a (ha-ha) few years ago. I found it to = be beyond my abilities. Thus I went to the old stand by, plastic. Be = aware that Life-Like stocks a reasonable N6b (with off-set copula which = one can center by using a razor saw). With addition of a few goodies = such as a new roofwalk, wire grabs, decent trucks and KD couplers you = can have a very decent cabin car. Take it as far as you want to go. Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF58EF.33AD80E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Jerry and list,
I attempted a Gloor-Craft model a = (ha-ha) few years=20 ago. I found it to be beyond my abilities. Thus I went to the old stand = by,=20 plastic. Be aware that Life-Like stocks a reasonable N6b (with off-set = copula=20 which one can center by using a razor saw). With addition of a few = goodies such=20 as a new roofwalk, wire grabs, decent trucks and KD couplers you can = have a=20 very decent cabin car. Take it as far as you want to = go.
 
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF58EF.33AD80E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:25:40 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Those magnificent Decapods Steve Hoxie said: >Credit where credit is due, and he deserves it. >However....... Absolutely! >First, 4638. That tender is hideous no matter where he puts the >doghouse. That's Bowser's fault, but Frank could have used Bowser's >so called 130P75 for a more accurate model, albeit with a different >engine number. I couldn't agree more...having become a fan of tenders in the recent years, that tender is an abomination! To go into such detail about the loco, and then throw off the tender as "good enough" with some "cosmetic modifications"...huh? I spent some time going over the article last night and several things bothered me. These relate more to the approach of "if I didn't know exactly where it went, I faked it based on the description in the 'cyclopedia..." than they did to specific details (not being an I-1 expert). In this day and age, there are hundreds of available I-1 photos from all angles and eras...one should not have to guess, and one should certainly NEVER RELY on Bowser's descriptions for anything! In the end, they are nice looking, detailed models, but do not truely represent the prototypes locos that they are numbered for...That said, again, congrats to Mr. Costanzi, who modeled the models, and wrote the article and GOT IT PUBLISHED! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:30:27 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] I1sa with ex N&W tender Doug Kisala wrote: >There's a picture of I1sa 4331 dated August 1943 on page 103 of Pennsy >Power III with an ex N&W tender. It has the fishbelly underframe and >six wheel trucks (having finally mastered most of the 110P75/110P75a >variants, I'm resting before I tackle N&W tender classifications and >variations). > >I wonder what tender went to the Y3? Perhaps the 90F82 from the I1sa? >I'll bet that Don Harper knows the answer! The photo is misdated. The HH-1 tenders were reclassified by PRR as 180F82a and remained with the locos until scrapping in 1948...thereafter the tender would have appeared on an I-1s or I-1sa. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:35:09 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy N6b Walt said: > Dear Jerry and list, I attempted a Gloor-Craft model a (ha-ha) few >years ago. I found it to be beyond my abilities. Thus I went to the old >stand by, plastic. I have completed on Gloor Craft N6b...nice model, but it does take some careful cutting to get the windows/doors right. I have several in progress right now, where I have substituted scribed styrene for the wood siding, and this make life a lot easier! Included in this are modifiying a an ND bobber to the N4. Once again I am forced to wonder, with the wonderful laser cut kits available today, when someone will re-issue the wooden cabin cars of the PRR in this format, with appropriate window sashes and doors etc...what a wonderful improvement that would be! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:37:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] HH-1 modeling Garry Mittner asked: > > Do you know for a fact that this loco recieved the DGLE paint? I am >assuing it did. Me too! The only "evidence" I have are the PRR B&W "builders photos" where the locos have obviously been freshly painted. Would PRR paint one class of loco Black in 1943, while painting all other classses DGLE? I don't THINK so! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy N6b Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:25:56 -0500 Here's a tip for helping place the windows on the Gloorcraft N6 models. Each of the windows vary slightly in size and cannot be interchanged. Scribe the back of each window with a number, i.e. 1 - 8. Then use a specific window to trace and cut each window opening. Label the window opening with the corresponding window number. This will result in much better fitting windows with little to no space between the window frame and the exterior wood sheathing. Also give each wooden piece three coats of polyurethane with a light sanding between each. Do this prior to putting anything together. Now assemble the kit with superglue, epoxy, Goo versus wood glue. Also don't forget to take an unfolded edge of sand paper and run it in the grooves of the scribed siding. You'll immediately see excellent results. Cover the roof with one ply of gift wrap tissue paper. When painted black it gives a nice texture which resembles years of tar water proofing. Try these out and see if the work for you. They're not as difficult as one might think. Regards, Kris -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 9:35 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy N6b Walt said: > Dear Jerry and list, I attempted a Gloor-Craft model a (ha-ha) few >years ago. I found it to be beyond my abilities. Thus I went to the old >stand by, plastic. I have completed on Gloor Craft N6b...nice model, but it does take some careful cutting to get the windows/doors right. I have several in progress right now, where I have substituted scribed styrene for the wood siding, and this make life a lot easier! Included in this are modifiying a an ND bobber to the N4. Once again I am forced to wonder, with the wonderful laser cut kits available today, when someone will re-issue the wooden cabin cars of the PRR in this format, with appropriate window sashes and doors etc...what a wonderful improvement that would be! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Hutchinson Subject: [PRR] Menlo Park Station Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:53:22 -0500 Does anyone out there have information, photos, etc., of the PRR station at Menlo Park, NJ, which was located between Metuchen and Iselin? It was just west of the current Metropark Station. David Hutchinson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 13:51:04 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy N6b Thanks to Bruce and Kris for their insights on the Gloorcraft N6b kit. I have several, but only one started. Ran into the window/door problem on one and set it aside. Now, I have more info and feel less concerned about screwing it up. Yea PRR-Talk!! Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:52:12 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] current doings on "The Limited" Hello all, Just a quick note to let you know that some fairly substantial changes have been added to "The Limited". First off, our last Opinion Poll brought in some surprising results, raising issues about how we have presented the product concept, our Mission Statement and Tech Support. I have commented on these at length, so you might want to check that out. Second, as part of preparations for startup, the Modelers Resource section has been restructured and expanded. Not much to report there as yet, but there is an exparimental downloadable kitbashing diagram that I hope you folks will take a peek at and let me know what you think. Technology-wise, a new and streamlined (don't ya love dat phrase?) search engine is on line for the Railroads material. This will take you directly to the index page of that topic, with other pages linked from there. For material- there has been quite a lot for the Milwaukee Road, Cotton Belt, KCS, plus at least index pages with maps for several midwestern roads. The new search engine will require all the index pages to be posted, which will mean that we will at least have system maps of all the roads. This is my big project for this month (between startup stuph and taxes). For all you webslingers, there have been some additional CGI posted to "Bubba's Web Resources". Otherwise, things trudge along in an orderly fashion. I would like to take a moment to thank everyone who took part in our last Poll- normally I drop a quick note back to each entrant, but things are so busy now that I didn't have the chance. Thank you for your interest and input, gang! My best to all in the new year, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 19:10:15 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gloor Craft N6 cabin Jerry and the list, Standard Hobby Supply carries the Gloor Craft line. Give them a ring at 201 825 2211 (that's their information number). They can do stock checks for you. Their ordering number is 800 223 1355 or 800 258 2205. Doug Jerry Shickler wrote: > Does anyone know of a shop having a Gloor Craft N6 (preferably a b) in > stock? Walthers shows out of stock. If not, might enough of us be > interested to warrant another run? > -- > Jerry Shickler > e-mail: geshick@velocity.net > Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, & Chautauqua branch web-site at > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 19:15:56 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pending Mantua PRR Atlantic Jerry, Mantua's ad in the February 2000 MR is on page 23. There's a picture of an 040 decorated for PRR, but there's no Atlantic. I checked the January MR just to be sure, and it had pictures of the GN Atlantic, but no PRR Atlantic. Please forgive me for chomping at the bit; passenger power is one of my favorite things. Doug Jerry Britton wrote: > On 1/6/00 11:43 PM, doug.kisala at (doug.kisala@mciworld.com) wrote: > > > Have any of you seen pictures or renderings of Mantua's upcoming PRR > > Atlantic? I'm curious as to whether the engine will represent the > > E3sa/E7s classes with piston valves or if the engine will be backdated > > to a saturated/slide valve configuration with the old square > > headlights. I'm hoping for a modern version with a round headlight and > > representing the superheated configuration. > > There is a photo of it in the new MR. I don't have it with me, so I can't > provide a page reference. Look in the Advertiser's Index in the back and > lookup the Mantua ad. > > If you can figure out what class it best represents, please report that back > to the list. Thanks. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 19:18:46 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy N6b --Boundary_(ID_T6mg93AGpwaWZnwVbxazdg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Walt and the list, I have two of the Model Power (they're not made currently by Life Like; perhaps they were in the past) N6b cabin cars. I agree completely with Walt that with a little effort they'll look great. I've only built one wood kit (and that was from Sparrow's Point Division), so I can't comment on the Gloor Craft models. Doug Walt Prusick wrote: > Dear Jerry and list,I attempted a Gloor-Craft model a (ha-ha) few > years ago. I found it to be beyond my abilities. Thus I went to the > old stand by, plastic. Be aware that Life-Like stocks a reasonable N6b > (with off-set copula which one can center by using a razor saw). With > addition of a few goodies such as a new roofwalk, wire grabs, decent > trucks and KD couplers you can have a very decent cabin car. Take it > as far as you want to go. Walt Prusick --Boundary_(ID_T6mg93AGpwaWZnwVbxazdg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Walt and the list,

I have two of the Model Power (they're not made currently by Life Like; perhaps they were in the past) N6b cabin cars.  I agree completely with Walt that with a little effort they'll look great.  I've only built one wood kit (and that was from Sparrow's Point Division), so I can't comment on the Gloor Craft models.

Doug

Walt Prusick wrote:

Dear Jerry and list,I attempted a Gloor-Craft model a (ha-ha) few years ago. I found it to be beyond my abilities. Thus I went to the old stand by, plastic. Be aware that Life-Like stocks a reasonable N6b (with off-set copula which one can center by using a razor saw). With addition of a few goodies such as a new roofwalk, wire grabs, decent trucks and KD couplers you can have a very decent cabin car. Take it as far as you want to go. Walt Prusick
--Boundary_(ID_T6mg93AGpwaWZnwVbxazdg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:47:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy N6b List, For those of you who have plans on building one of these N6b cabins I suggest tossing out all those green coated wires they supply in the kit and substitute brass wire rod from K&S. That green wire is too soft and deforms to easily. I have built both HO Scale and O Scale versions and with care, build into magnificent models. The O scale was easier to work with just because of its size. Here is a photo of my O scale N6b with center cupola. http://www.geocities.com/k4-5389/on6b.jpg Have fun building....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Model Power N6b Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 23:08:46 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF5964.266AD340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey list, Doug is right, that N6b is a Model Power product, not Life-like. Guess = my stock ownership is showing (or my slipping memory). Thanks for the = gentle correction. Walt ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF5964.266AD340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey list,
Doug is right, that N6b is a Model = Power product,=20 not Life-like. Guess my stock ownership is showing (or my slipping = memory).=20 Thanks for the gentle correction.
 
Walt
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF5964.266AD340-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:01:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Building the Pennsy N6b Bruce, I'm disappointed in you, after all that hand holding you did a couple of years ago when we each were building our first N6b. Your words of encouragement were all that kept me from throwing it out in frustration. Once I got the first one done, the intimidation factor of the fine tolerances disappeared. I'm ready to start four more kits and at least one in full styrene. Plus I have the kit in "O" Scale as well. The reason for so many is so that I can model all the design variations and lettering schemes for my long delayed comprehensive article on the N6 class cabin car. There are two deisgns of the N6a, three designs of the N6b and at least five lettering variations if you include both MOW schemes, the 1940-1954 battleship gray, and post 1954 camp car yellow. Design variations are N6a and N6b centered cupola, cars built new in the 1920s; N6a and N6b offset cupola, cars with lengthened NC and NE bobber bodies set on new steel underframes and what I call the "wall-eyed window" N6b with its windows set 20 inches closer to the car body ends than the other cars resulting from lengthening the tiny NB cabin car body to fit the longer frame. Lettering variations are "Pennsylvania Lines" scheme used from 1914 to 1920; Plain Pennsylvania, 1920-1927; line Pennsylvania, line above Pennsylvania and below car number (or is it the otherway around. Still at the libraryso I don't have access to my "PRR Compendium and other books) and the the "Shadow Keystone" with "Calendar" lettering from 1954-1968. Jim Hebner tells me that one PRR MOW N6b briefly was operated by Penn Cenn, retaining its Yellow Paint. Don't get discouraged. Careful preparation is the key. Seal the wood with you favorite sealer (Scalecoat is mine). Apply two coats, smoothing with #000 steel wool ot #1000 grit or finer wet dry sandpaper (check the auto fiinishing department of your local WalMart, K mart, Meijer, Target or other similar wart on the suburban landscape. Next tape the inside (flat side) of the siding. This allows for quick repair if the dood splits along the grain while cutting the car body ends. Have a supply of #11 blades and change them often. Anything bigger to clumsy for such work. Have patience. You're not in a race. You're having fun. The one good thing Parkinson's has done for my modeling is forced me to be patient. Measure at least 15 times so you only have to "cut once." To do it right, you'll be cutting more than once. Don't try to open the windows in four cuts. Bruce suggested carefully cutting slots across the openings so the blade can displace the wood without splitting. I the clear the opening in four pieces. And lastly, have a supply of Northeast Scale Models 1/32" scribed car siding with lines 1/32" apart so just in case if the worst happens, you can always start another. It took me five years to summon up the courage to begin and Professor Smith's sage advice to complete it. The others are waiting my discovery of full plans so I can finish my story and modelinging. I hope this inspires someone to test the outside of their modeling "envelop." Remember, This was the numerous class of cabin car on the PRR from the late Teens and World War II until at least May 15, 1957 (the date of the cabin car roster published in Bob Johnston's and Gary Roach's Dec. 1973 Keystone)and probably until about 1962 nearly all would have run a foul of the 40 year rule on cars in interchange. Any questions? Tom V. In a message dated Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:00:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." writes: > Walt > > I have completed on Gloor Craft N6b...nice model, but it does take some > careful cutting to get the windows/doors right. I have several in progress > right now, where I have substituted scribed styrene for the wood siding, > and this make life a lot easier! Included in this are modifiying a an ND > bobber to the N4. > > Once again I am forced to wonder, with the wonderful laser cut kits > available today, when someone will re-issue the wooden cabin cars of the > PRR in this format, with appropriate window sashes and doors etc...what a > wonderful improvement that would be! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > > PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:09:12 EST Subject: [PRR] X23 plans needed in Urbana, Ohio To all, The rails to trails folks in Urbana, Ohio, are attempting to preserve a X23 camp car and are in need of plans. I can't find mine. If you can help, please contact me off list. TIA, TTFN Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 14:59:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Lettering the N6b Tom, Your observations on N6b body variations are making the old juices flow -- I can hardly wait for your modeling article. OTOH, let's go back to school on your cited lettering variations. I may be wrong, but see commentary below... And yes, after covered hopper and gon lettering comes the Keystone article on cabin car lettering, so you can really help me here.... In a message dated 1/8/2000 1:09:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << Lettering variations are "Pennsylvania Lines" scheme used from 1914 to 1920;>> That's the PL version of NK3, I believe. Are we sure it started no earlier than 1914? << Plain Pennsylvania, 1920-1927;>> ? -- doesn't sound like NK3 (1906-1926), but could be a cabin-only scheme. << line Pennsylvania,>> NK3 has "Pennsylvania" underlined by a 1" line. << line above Pennsylvania and below car number (or is it the otherway around?>> classic NK4 (1926-1930), with the reporting marks bracketed above and below by 1" lines. BTW, even after 1930, cabins tended not to add the circle keystone that turns this NK4 scheme into CK (1930-1954). Pictures suggest some N6b's did carry the circle keystone, but they seem a distinct minority. Also note that N8 steel cars (built late) were an "exception to the exception" and all of them were delivered in full-CK with the circle keystone placed between the windows. "Shadow Keystone" with "Calendar" lettering from 1954-1968. >> Not sure "calendar script" numbers, characteristic of SK1a, which lasted 4 months in 1954, made it onto any cabins. Of course, the replacement roman numbers lasted through SK1b (9" roman numbers, 1954-57) and SK2a (7" roman if this phase existed on cabins, 1957-1960), and were replaced by the "futura" numbers for SK2b (1960-61). Note that Bowser has (properly) made free use of the SK2b scheme on their kits; it's good-looking, and usable from late steam up to the PC merger. Something to analyze more closely about the SK schemes is that surviving wood-sheathed cars (99% N6b) seem to have had the large (13"?) PENNSYLVANIA placed above the windows, whereas steel cabin cars had it below the windows. By 1961, the keystone had lost its shadow, but I'm not sure if PK (Plain Keystone) paint ever showed up on the N6b. Latest pic of an N6b in "revenue" colors I know of is 1964, and it's still in an SK1b scheme. Pardon me for jumping in here with both feet, but Pennsy fandom already has too much inaccurate "information" on lettering cars. The above is the result of over 20 years' part-time labor on the subject. As you know, I'd be glad to swap and compare research/photo lists/paint phase analysis on PRR cabins and freight cars with any interested parties -- there's always more to learn. Lookin' forward to the Lines West Fan Fest 2 this fall. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 15:17:02 EST Subject: [PRR] Panhandle Division There is a question on AOL as to what were the limits of the Panhandle. I assume Pittsburgh on one end. What about the other end? Wasn't the whole line to St. Louis reffered to as the "Panhandle"? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:05:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Panhandle Division In a message dated 1/8/2000 2:23:01 PM Central Standard Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << There is a question on AOL as to what were the limits of the Panhandle. I assume Pittsburgh on one end. What about the other end? Wasn't the whole line to St. Louis reffered to as the "Panhandle"? Thanks. >> The Panhandle "Division" ran from Pittsburgh to Newark, Ohio, according to the article in the Keystone, Winter, 1990. The "Panhandle" is a rather loose term and we have had discussions about it before. As a Chicagoan, the PCC&ST L from the Chicago Division through Bernice, the Logansport Division from Columbus was also referred to as part of the "Panhandle" "Main" (September 1982 Keystone). By language usage, in Chicago, the "Panhandle"therefore ended at the North side of Chicago Union Station. I'll let someone from St. Louis answer that part of the question. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:20:34 EST Subject: [PRR] PU84 coaches Somewhere I have seen this covered in print, but were these coaches conversions from either old Pullman open platform observations or other open-section Pullmans for use in troop train service? What were the years of service for these cars and how many were there? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Menlo Park Station Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:08:38 -0500 Hi David! I don't have any info on Menlo Park Station, but I wonder if the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn MI would have some information about it. They have most of the buildings from Edison's Menlo Park Laboratory there, so their researchers may have collected other info about the town as well. Just a thought. Pat Lawless David wrote: >Subject: Menlo Park Station >From: "David Hutchinson" >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:53:22 -0500 Does anyone out there have information, photos, etc., of the PRR station at Menlo Park, NJ, which was located between Metuchen and Iselin? It was just west of the current Metropark Station. David Hutchinson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy lettering Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:57:49 -0500 Does anyone have P Co. extended roman font for their computer? Ditto Claredon? I need both fonts for some up coming drawings. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:44:55 EST Subject: [PRR] CT 1000 E I was recently fortunate enough to find and acquire a copy of PRR form CT 1000 E, May 1, 1945. This is a list of all sidings on the railroad, roughly covering the territory east of Altoona. Can any one tell me a bit more about this publication. Specifically, 1. what were the names of the companion volumes that I assume must have existed to cover the rest of the railroad? 2. were later editions published and if so when? Thanks Lee Rainey PRRT&HS 6006 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:58:44 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy N6 from HO scale Model Power caboose Hi all. I did an N6 from a Model Power caboose conversion, about 8 years ago (I think; may not have been that long ago). Here's a picture of it that my brother Mark took: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=102512&a=1455862&p=15025299 This was one of my first attempts at more accurate PRR modeling. At the time I didn't have as much good info as I have now. If I did it over, I'd use different trucks (like Bowser arch bars, for circa 1925). And NWSL semi-finescale wheelsets (I'll probably make those replacements pretty soon anyway). I may also repaint it, since from Rick's remarks it sounds like the lettering scheme is post-1925. I'm also not sure now that grabs were painted yellow that long ago; can be hard to tell from photos. And the underframe is the remains of an Athearn boxcar underframe; at least I'll have to redo the brake gear. Still, I think it turned out pretty nice. One of the interesting features is the Tomar working marker lamps. They're powered by a AA battery inside the cabin. For the smokejack I used some hollow plastic tubing. The top (above the guy wires) is a separate piece, and is glued onto a metal rod that passes through the lower portion of the smokejack and attaches to a slide switch inside the cabin body to control the marker lights. Pull the top of the smokejack up, and the lights go off. Push the top down, into "operating position", and your N6 is ready to roll. Did I mention that it was a lot of fun doing the conversion and posing the photos... Jim Anderson PRRT&HS 3995 Modeling the Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 18:03:44 EST Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR CT 1000E In partial response to Lee Rainey's question: There were also CT 1000C (Central Region) and CT 1000 W (Western Region), but I'm not sure of the geographical boundaries for those. Someone else on the list will no doubt have that info. I know of a 1923 and the 1945 sets of CT 1000; I think there was a later set, in the 50's, but I'm not sure. Jim Anderson PRRT&HS 3995 Modeling the Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "walter mcwilliams" Subject: [PRR] Webster Classic Models Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:26:59 -0500 The website listed in MRR feb 2000 is incorrect. Anyone have a good one? Thanks Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] A book of interest to Lines West fans From: Fred G Rea Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 20:58:16 EST Here is a book of interest that is due out in June: http://www.indiana.edu/~iupress/books/0-253-33708-9.shtml My son, a PC fan, spotted it. They have a PC book that looks good too. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:59:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods Steve and All, I found your words refreshing and helpful, Steve. Being an avid SPF modeler I want my models to be "perfect" and realistic as possible and as they should be. This thread has brought out the best in that. We have raised questions answered questions and added good references to our data bases for future modeling. This is exactly why I think that PRR-Talk exist, Thank You Jerry! I have not read the article in depth, but now I will from perhaps a new perspective. I too plan an article utilizing Bowser's Decapod as well as my brass PFM model. Mine will both be modernized. The stimulus for my article my article is Kris Kolar's upcoming article in Mainline Modeler on his L 1 Mike. I too am capable of error as I referred to the blow down muffler as a steam turret and it was printed that way in his article and was not caught at the "blueline," my error not Kris'. Errors happen and unfortunately as an author you are subject to the wrath, oh well, I have broad shoulders. Those that share the information as Steve has and does on a regular basis are subject to the wrath from others, but Steve has shown me he too has broad shoulder as well as a deep fox hole and a good helmet. Will Steve be branded as a "nit picker," or "rivet counter." Not in my book, just a well informed Pennsy modeler/historian. Again, great job Steve, your information is very valuable. However; in defense of Frank Costanzi article I think it has done the hobby justice and it has furthered the state of the art Pennsy modeling from one perspective and that is the recognition and exposure it has given we Pennsy Modelers. Although, not perhaps the most accurate models ever built certainly state of the art with regard to the realistic impression it has left on readers less fortunate than us. Let's face it he could have used the old K-4 boiler and moved forward from there. Again, this list is different, it is focused and we all gain from it. My hopes are someday we will build a data base that will encompass enough information that any Pennsy Modeler can join and refer to the archives, so vast, that no modeler will stumble through a project. And always find a Steve Hoxie, Bruce Smith, or Andy Miller willing to help them over all hurdles. Just a few personal thoughts, Greg Martin ===================================================================== Steve Hoxie wrote; ===================================================================== << Subj: [PRR] Re: Those magnificent Decapods Date: 1/6/00 10:16:29 PM Pacific Standard Time From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com (Pennsy Talk) This concerns the I1 article in the Feb 2000 MR. I do not wish to have this taken as being overly critical of Frank Costanzi. He did a lot of good work making those two models, and he put a lot of effort into preparing his article to MR's high standards. Credit where credit is due, and he deserves it. However....... Both models are inaccurate in several areas. Having been published in prestigious MR establishes what he has done up there nearly at Ten Commandment level. His work will be used as a guide by others for years. This will not enhance the overall quality and accuracy of PRR steam models being built today and in the future, which is a shame. It also will tell Bowser that their efforts are good enough, which is hardly the truth. First, 4638. That tender is hideous no matter where he puts the doghouse. That's Bowser's fault, but Frank could have used Bowser's so called 130P75 for a more accurate model, albeit with a different engine number. Fireman's side: For as-built and into the 30's, the running board is OK, but after that it should be reconfigured around the feed water heater (hereafter FWH) and over the air compressor. His discussion about the correct BL (early) or BL2 (later) FWH is accurate. Again Bowser: I presume the incorrect BL4 was included in their Superdetail Kit; they have the correct BL2 available in the Cary line, # FW101 and FW102. (Note: the Precision Scale FWH is grossly out of scale for HO, as is the FWH on the Sunset models.) Nice touch with the open cab-front door! Although I haven't done a detailed review, I believe the blow down muffler was added later in life, and thus should not be on an engine with this running board configuration. Engineer's side: Again, the running board; up and over the train control box would be a later configuration. On an engine with FWH there should be no starter valve or injector on this side. (PFM did this on their I1, too.) The air line to the power reverse is a mystery. (PFM did this on their brass L1s, too, but I have been unable to find a verifying photo.) Bell: Precision Scale makes a very nice PRR air ringer, part no. 585-3155. Now 4510: No problem with this tender; several Decs had these at different times. Fireman's side: Same problem with the running board and FWH. This engine also has a mechanical lubricator which definitely was added at a later date. Engineer's side: Although there were several different running board configurations, if it goes up and over the train control box, it should also go over the air compressor. Frank's comments about the in-cab injector are in error; no injector on this side with a FWH on the engine. In fact, one of the characteristics of the Dec is the lack of anything under the engineer except small air brake components. The color photo shows round parts on the power reverse and train control box painted red; I could not see a reason to do that. So there it is. I just hope this isn't taken as biting criticism, or even as rivet counting--these are big pieces misapplied. As SPF's we have an interest in accurate portrayal of the PRR as it used to be. Unfortunately, this article did not further the state of the art of PRR modeling. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:23:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Panhandle Division In a message dated 01/08/2000 3:23:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << There is a question on AOL as to what were the limits of the Panhandle. I assume Pittsburgh on one end. What about the other end? Wasn't the whole line to St. Louis reffered to as the "Panhandle"? Thanks. >> According to the September 26, 1948 ETT the Division posts for the Panhandle Division were 0.1 miles west of PH tower (Pittsburgh Union Station) and 0.4 miles west of HK tower which is .02 miles east of Newark, OH. Total distance 157.4 miles. At Newark the Panhandle connected to the C&N Division and 33.1 miles later became the Columbus Division. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 01:31:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CT 1000 E In a message dated 00-01-08 17:52:50 EST, LeeRainey@aol.com writes: << 1. what were the names of the companion volumes that I assume must have existed to cover the rest of the railroad?>> CT-1000 C and CT-1000 W covered the central and western portions of the PRR respectively. <<2. were later editions published and if so when? >> I once saw a single-volume CT-1000, covering the entire railroad, at a show. I believe it was dated after 1945 (probably much later, as many siding abandonments would be needed in order to squeeze the whole RR into one volume!) but cannot remember the date. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:22:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CT 1000 E In a message dated 1/9/00 10:54:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRRMAN@aol.com writes: << I once saw a single-volume CT-1000, covering the entire railroad, at a show. I believe it was dated after 1945 (probably much later, as many siding abandonments would be needed in order to squeeze the whole RR into one volume!) but cannot remember the date. >> There is a single Volume CT-1000 1945 that covers the entire PRR. It is 639 pages. One was on eBay Auction recently. Harold PRRT&HS 5224 Modeling the Middle Division Circa 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "RANDY WILLIAMSON" Subject: Re: [PRR] CT 1000 E Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:25:54 -0600 It was also from May 1st 1945. 825 pages worth of neat information on every industry and interchange PRR served. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 12:31 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] CT 1000 E > In a message dated 00-01-08 17:52:50 EST, LeeRainey@aol.com writes: > > << 1. what were the names of the companion volumes that I assume must have > existed to cover the rest of the railroad?>> > > CT-1000 C and CT-1000 W covered the central and western > portions of the PRR respectively. > > <<2. were later editions published and if so when? >> > > I once saw a single-volume CT-1000, covering the entire railroad, > at a show. I believe it was dated after 1945 (probably much later, > as many siding abandonments would be needed in order to squeeze > the whole RR into one volume!) but cannot remember the date. > > Rich Copeland > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods and other locos Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:36:49 -0500 I have quite a stable of Bowser engines and have been building them and giving away and selling them for several decades. Before Bowser, I used Penn Line. I loved to build these engines and I did extensive research with my limited resources to make my locos as close to prototype as possible. Many of my locos are close, but not exact models because a picture of the fireman side wasn't available, or there were shadows in the photo etc. Instead of critiqueing the efforts of each individual that creates a superdetailed model, why don't we join intellectual forces to research and identify a "correct" engine number that most closely matches each of Lew English's kits and make recommendations to Lew on how to most economically retool or redesign each kit to accurately reflect PRR practice. This way, every one getting a kit can build an exact scale model (or one very close to exact scale) of each prototype. We could research the history for him and supply him with lists of engine numbers and changes needed to the kit to make that particular engine number etc. We may have photos that Lew could use with his Bowser kits that show more detail. I for one am a railroad illustrator and would be willing to upgrade the line drawings that Lew uses for his parts placement and identification if needed. I see this as a very positive impact on PRR modeling for the entire cyber group. We can correct commercial PRR information while helping a manufacturer make a better product. If the manufacturer makes a better model, we benefit in the end by haveing that model and maybe the manufacturer becomes more competative and survives. We have all voiced the question of "where can I get that tender?" Maybe we need to supply the manufacturer with the information so he can make it! Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: steveh@dotstar.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, January 09, 2000 10:44 AM Subject: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods >Steve and All, > >I found your words refreshing and helpful, Steve. Being an avid SPF modeler >I want my models to be "perfect" and realistic as possible and as they should >be. This thread has brought out the best in that. We have raised questions >answered questions and added good references to our data bases for future >modeling. This is exactly why I think that PRR-Talk exist, Thank You Jerry! >I have not read the article in depth, but now I will from perhaps a new >perspective. I too plan an article utilizing Bowser's Decapod as well as my >brass PFM model. Mine will both be modernized. The stimulus for my article >my article is Kris Kolar's upcoming article in Mainline Modeler on his L 1 >Mike. I too am capable of error as I referred to the blow down muffler as a >steam turret and it was printed that way in his article and was not caught at >the "blueline," my error not Kris'. Errors happen and unfortunately as an >author you are subject to the wrath, oh well, I have broad shoulders. > Those that share the information as Steve has and does on a regular basis >are subject to the wrath from others, but Steve has shown me he too has broad >shoulder as well as a deep fox hole and a good helmet. Will Steve be branded >as a "nit picker," or "rivet counter." Not in my book, just a well informed >Pennsy modeler/historian. Again, great job Steve, your information is very >valuable. > However; in defense of Frank Costanzi article I think it has done the >hobby justice and it has furthered the state of the art Pennsy modeling from >one perspective and that is the recognition and exposure it has given we >Pennsy Modelers. Although, not perhaps the most accurate models ever built >certainly state of the art with regard to the realistic impression it has >left on readers less fortunate than us. Let's face it he could have used the >old K-4 boiler and moved forward from there. > Again, this list is different, it is focused and we all gain from it. My >hopes are someday we will build a data base that will encompass enough >information that any Pennsy Modeler can join and refer to the archives, so >vast, that no modeler will stumble through a project. And always find a Steve >Hoxie, Bruce Smith, or Andy Miller willing to help them over all hurdles. > >Just a few personal thoughts, > >Greg Martin >===================================================================== >Steve Hoxie wrote; >===================================================================== ><< Subj: [PRR] Re: Those magnificent Decapods > Date: 1/6/00 10:16:29 PM Pacific Standard Time > From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) > Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com (Pennsy Talk) > > This concerns the I1 article in the Feb 2000 MR. I do not wish to have this >taken as being overly critical of Frank Costanzi. He did a lot of good work >making those two > models, and he put a lot of effort into preparing his article to MR's high >standards. Credit where credit is due, and he deserves it. > However....... > > Both models are inaccurate in several areas. Having been published in >prestigious MR establishes what he has done up there nearly at Ten >Commandment level. His work will be used as a guide by others for years. >This will not enhance the overall quality and accuracy of PRR steam models >being built today and in the future, which is a shame. > It also will tell Bowser that their efforts are good enough, which is hardly >the truth. > > First, 4638. That tender is hideous no matter where he puts the doghouse. >That's Bowser's fault, but Frank could have used Bowser's so called 130P75 >for a more accurate model, albeit with a different engine number. > Fireman's side: For as-built and into the 30's, the running board is OK, but >after that it should be reconfigured around the feed water heater (hereafter >FWH) and over the air compressor. His discussion about the correct BL >(early) or BL2 (later) FWH is accurate. Again Bowser: I presume the >incorrect BL4 was included in their Superdetail Kit; they have the correct >BL2 available in the Cary line, # FW101 > and FW102. (Note: the Precision Scale FWH is grossly out of scale for HO, >as is the FWH on the Sunset models.) Nice touch with the open cab-front >door! Although I haven't done a detailed review, I believe the blow down >muffler was added later in life, and thus should not be on an engine with >this running board configuration. > Engineer's side: Again, the running board; up and over the train control box >would be a later configuration. On an engine with FWH there should be no >starter valve or injector on this side. (PFM did this on their I1, too.) >The air line to the power reverse is a mystery. (PFM did this on their brass >L1s, too, but I have been unable to find a verifying photo.) > Bell: Precision Scale makes a very nice PRR air ringer, part no. 585-3155. > > Now 4510: No problem with this tender; several Decs had these at different >times. > Fireman's side: Same problem with the running board and FWH. This engine >also has a mechanical lubricator which definitely was added at a later date. >Engineer's side: Although there were several different running board >configurations, if it goes up and over the train control box, it should also >go over the air compressor. Frank's comments about the in-cab injector are >in error; no injector on this side with a FWH on the engine. In fact, one of >the characteristics of the Dec is the lack of anything > under the engineer except small air brake components. The color photo shows >round parts on the power reverse and train control box painted red; I could >not see a reason to do that. > > So there it is. I just hope this isn't taken as biting criticism, or even >as rivet counting--these are big pieces misapplied. As SPF's we have an >interest in accurate portrayal of the PRR as it used to be. Unfortunately, >this article did not further the state of the art of PRR modeling. > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "mailto:listmaster@dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Re: N6b kits Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:29:22 -0800 I have built a couple of these kits in o-scale. One I built with a removable roof and detailed interior. A friend purchased a built up kit for me. I have two frustrations with these kits. The first is the common occurence of the splitting that occurs between the two wood panneling sheets that make up the sides, leaving a very noticable line right in the middle of the car. I was not familiar with the sanding sealer at the time I built the cars, perhaps using this prevents the shrinkage that occurs to the wood. The last car I built I heavliy reinforced this area inside the car and it has not yet split. Anyone else have this problem? My second issue is with the steps. I want to make the cars with see through steps. The steps should not have a board vertically between each stair. Precision scale listed the steps available in their O- scale parts catalog but I was unable to get them from them or elsewhere. They no longer list the part. Perhaps if enough of us asked them they will reissue it. The alternative is to scratch build one but I worry about the strength of such a unit. The stairs often get abuse when running. ---Greg Stone PRRTHS Interest in Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] RE: magnificant decapods Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:45:24 -0800 I have really enjoyed the comments made by members of this list on this subject. I have not recieved my copy of the magazine. When I do, I will cut the article out and put it in my file on decapods along with the comments you have made. It is very refreshing to hear critique which is stated in a constructive manner and prefaced with a statement of no harm intended. I read these comments to a fellow PRR historian/modeler and he agreed. We both thought that the modeler may not have access to multiple shots of the same engine so the engine becomes the composite of several engines. Modeling/Historical research is like the medical profession and one thing we know is that every new atempt will suffer critisizms. If it were not for these critisizms we would not move ahead. One should make the critisizms in a supportive and encouraging manner. After all we are not in competition. We all have the same goal furthering and improving our field. It is really nice to see this process at work in this medium!! Greg Stone PRRTHS Special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 11:25:45 -0800 Subject: [PRR] 12-1 Sleeper car names From: "Doug and Marianne" Does anyone have a list of 12-1 Pullman sleeper Car names assigned to PRR? Were any of these cars built with, or modified with, air conditioning? How late were these cars used? Thanks for any help. Doug N. Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "walter mcwilliams" Subject: [PRR] PRR: diamond scale const Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:34:05 -0500 Does anyone know if Diamond Scale Construction is still in buisness, and if they have a web site, or mailing address. Thanks Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 15:07:07 -0500 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] Railroad Shows Are there any shows coming in the near future in PA, MD, DE, or NJ where I might be able to pick up some out of print PRR books or some used PRR Model Railroad stuff? Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:13:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Camp Kilmer In a message dated 00-01-04 07:30:00 EST, you write: << I am looking for any info (track diagrams, etc.) on the Camp Kilmer facility that was located in Edison (Stelton), NJ, on the PRR mainline. The facility was built in 1942. David Hutchinson >> A clear photograph of the loading area appears on p. 79 of Don DeNevi , Missoula MO, 1996**: there is caternary strung over what I count to be sixteen ladder tracks within a large balloon yarrd. I have in my graduate school papers some of the maps done for the conveyance of Camp Kilmer to Rutgers c. 1967, which shows all the trackage which connected the PRR, LV, and RDG into the Kilmer area. On the PRR, there was a flyover balloon track over the four-track main stem: I believe the abutments of that bridge were still there the last time I rode Amtrak into NYC, maybe five years ago. The general track arrangement was that any train coming in on any one of the three railroads could be unloaded or loaded or reversed without fouling the PRR main or the Port Reading line of the RDG; I recall that some moves could foul the LV line to the Fords area. It might be some time before the conveyance maps surface: I'll keep a tickler copy of this note to alert you when next I have them to hand. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA **Personal opinion: don't rush out to get this book---lots of padding with pre-war photos, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad Shows Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:23:08 -0500 Scale Model Railroad show at Timonium MD. I believe its 29 - 30 January. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Morrow [mailto:morrow4@bellatlantic.net] Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 3:07 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Railroad Shows Are there any shows coming in the near future in PA, MD, DE, or NJ where I might be able to pick up some out of print PRR books or some used PRR Model Railroad stuff? Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:01:37 EST Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad Shows Mike Morrow asked: The premium show for the PRR fan is the annual meeting of the PRR Technical & Historical Society (PRRT&HS) in Camp Hill PA (near Harrisburg). This year's meeting is May 5-7. One of the prime features of this meeting is the vendor's room. You never know what PRR treasures you may find there. Jim Anderson sny114@aol.com PRRT&HS 3995 Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:12:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: diamond scale const In a message dated 1/9/2000 1:40:31 PM Central Standard Time, angmac@mindspring.com writes: << Does anyone know if Diamond Scale Construction is still in buisness, and if they have a web site, or mailing address. Thanks Walt >> New owner: Diamond Scale Construction 3742 West Anderson Drive Glendale, AZ 85308 (phone) 602 504 8589 (e-mail) newolfe@compuserve.com Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 21:13:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Sleeper car names In a message dated 01/09/2000 2:34:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, babal@slip.net writes: << Does anyone have a list of 12-1 Pullman sleeper Car names assigned to PRR? >> >From "The Pullman Company List of Cars 1961" published by Wayner Publications. Adamdale Ashcom Beddington Carville Dola Dunning Fredericktown Hess James Logan James Russell Lowell John Greenleaf Whittier Morton Joseph Reed McClellanville McRaven Ravenna Saltsburg Stronach Thomas Paine In Government STorage Akeley Alanson Alexandria Almaden Althom Arlington Arona Aylesworth Beaver Bentleyville Bentonville Bethevan Bettsville Bret Harte Buckhorn Burkhart Calvin Coolidge Charles Pinckney Chattolanee Chevy Chase Cheyney Christopher Columbus Christopher Gadsden Clearbrook Corcoran Cove Crossley Curwensville Daniel Boone Daniel Webster Darby Dresden Earlville East Allegheny Ellendale Epsyville Ethan Allen Francis Hopkinson Friendship Gibonsburg Hawkins Haysville Henryville Heverly Hiramsburg Idaville Isaac Hull James Lawerence James Monroe James Whicomb Riley Jeffersonville Jerseytown JOhn Dickinson JOnathan Trumbull Joseph D. Oliver Joshua Barney Kohler Latcha Lawmaker Limedale Linden Lloydville Macksville Madley Mantoloking McKeen Mettler Middlesex Nassau Nathanael Greene Nathaniel Bacon Nealmont Oliver Hazard Perry Ostend Otto Carmichael Pan American Parkesburg Paul Jones Peter Cooper Pocahontas Portageville Queensville Radley Ralph Waldo Emerson Richard Dale Roswell Rumley Sabula Salix Samuel Adams Senate Seth Warner Sproul Steiners Stephan Girard Stockdale Stockley Suplee Tabor The Mall Thomas Macdonough thornhope Thomas Pickering Torrance Uppview Uppworth Urbana Utahville Cankirk Westerville Whitaker William Bainbridge William Ellery Woodstock Zachary Taylor Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 22:19:34 -0500 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: [PRR] Stewart PRR C628 Decals I am decaling a set of PRR C628s and am using Micro Scale's 87-21 set. There does not seem to be a set of numbers the correct size for the number boards on this model. Can anyone provide the number and manufacturer of a set that will work? The number boards on this model are quite small. I was considering using the n scale set. Any comments? David Campbell Norton, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR BP-20 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 23:35:21 -0500 I just received a virus, happy exe 99, as an attachment from Jeremy Deasley with the above subject line. Please don't open this attachment if anyone else on the list received it. It is an auto-mailing virus that uses your e-mail address book to automatically send itself to everyone on your list. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Deasley To: lmatt@alltel.net Date: Sunday, January 09, 2000 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR BP-20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods and other locos Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 23:37:53 -0500 I have quite a stable of Bowser engines and have been building them and giving away and selling them for several decades. Before Bowser, I used Penn Line. I loved to build these engines and I did extensive research with my limited resources to make my locos as close to prototype as possible. Many of my locos are close, but not exact models because a picture of the fireman side wasn't available, or there were shadows in the photo etc. Instead of critiqueing the efforts of each individual that creates a superdetailed model, why don't we join intellectual forces to research and identify a "correct" engine number that most closely matches each of Lew English's kits and make recommendations to Lew on how to most economically retool or redesign each kit to accurately reflect PRR practice. This way, every one getting a kit can build an exact scale model (or one very close to exact scale) of each prototype. We could research the history for him and supply him with lists of engine numbers and changes needed to the kit to make that particular engine number etc. We may have photos that Lew could use with his Bowser kits that show more detail. I for one am a railroad illustrator and would be willing to upgrade the line drawings that Lew uses for his parts placement and identification if needed. I see this as a very positive impact on PRR modeling for the entire cyber group. We can correct commercial PRR information while helping a manufacturer make a better product. If the manufacturer makes a better model, we benefit in the end by haveing that model and maybe the manufacturer becomes more competative and survives. We have all voiced the question of "where can I get that tender?" Maybe we need to supply the manufacturer with the information so he can make it! Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: steveh@dotstar.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, January 09, 2000 10:44 AM Subject: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods >Steve and All, > >I found your words refreshing and helpful, Steve. Being an avid SPF modeler >I want my models to be "perfect" and realistic as possible and as they should >be. This thread has brought out the best in that. We have raised questions >answered questions and added good references to our data bases for future >modeling. This is exactly why I think that PRR-Talk exist, Thank You Jerry! >I have not read the article in depth, but now I will from perhaps a new >perspective. I too plan an article utilizing Bowser's Decapod as well as my >brass PFM model. Mine will both be modernized. The stimulus for my article >my article is Kris Kolar's upcoming article in Mainline Modeler on his L 1 >Mike. I too am capable of error as I referred to the blow down muffler as a >steam turret and it was printed that way in his article and was not caught at >the "blueline," my error not Kris'. Errors happen and unfortunately as an >author you are subject to the wrath, oh well, I have broad shoulders. > Those that share the information as Steve has and does on a regular basis >are subject to the wrath from others, but Steve has shown me he too has broad >shoulder as well as a deep fox hole and a good helmet. Will Steve be branded >as a "nit picker," or "rivet counter." Not in my book, just a well informed >Pennsy modeler/historian. Again, great job Steve, your information is very >valuable. > However; in defense of Frank Costanzi article I think it has done the >hobby justice and it has furthered the state of the art Pennsy modeling from >one perspective and that is the recognition and exposure it has given we >Pennsy Modelers. Although, not perhaps the most accurate models ever built >certainly state of the art with regard to the realistic impression it has >left on readers less fortunate than us. Let's face it he could have used the >old K-4 boiler and moved forward from there. > Again, this list is different, it is focused and we all gain from it. My >hopes are someday we will build a data base that will encompass enough >information that any Pennsy Modeler can join and refer to the archives, so >vast, that no modeler will stumble through a project. And always find a Steve >Hoxie, Bruce Smith, or Andy Miller willing to help them over all hurdles. > >Just a few personal thoughts, > >Greg Martin >===================================================================== >Steve Hoxie wrote; >===================================================================== ><< Subj: [PRR] Re: Those magnificent Decapods > Date: 1/6/00 10:16:29 PM Pacific Standard Time > From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) > Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com (Pennsy Talk) > > This concerns the I1 article in the Feb 2000 MR. I do not wish to have this >taken as being overly critical of Frank Costanzi. He did a lot of good work >making those two > models, and he put a lot of effort into preparing his article to MR's high >standards. Credit where credit is due, and he deserves it. > However....... > > Both models are inaccurate in several areas. Having been published in >prestigious MR establishes what he has done up there nearly at Ten >Commandment level. His work will be used as a guide by others for years. >This will not enhance the overall quality and accuracy of PRR steam models >being built today and in the future, which is a shame. > It also will tell Bowser that their efforts are good enough, which is hardly >the truth. > > First, 4638. That tender is hideous no matter where he puts the doghouse. >That's Bowser's fault, but Frank could have used Bowser's so called 130P75 >for a more accurate model, albeit with a different engine number. > Fireman's side: For as-built and into the 30's, the running board is OK, but >after that it should be reconfigured around the feed water heater (hereafter >FWH) and over the air compressor. His discussion about the correct BL >(early) or BL2 (later) FWH is accurate. Again Bowser: I presume the >incorrect BL4 was included in their Superdetail Kit; they have the correct >BL2 available in the Cary line, # FW101 > and FW102. (Note: the Precision Scale FWH is grossly out of scale for HO, >as is the FWH on the Sunset models.) Nice touch with the open cab-front >door! Although I haven't done a detailed review, I believe the blow down >muffler was added later in life, and thus should not be on an engine with >this running board configuration. > Engineer's side: Again, the running board; up and over the train control box >would be a later configuration. On an engine with FWH there should be no >starter valve or injector on this side. (PFM did this on their I1, too.) >The air line to the power reverse is a mystery. (PFM did this on their brass >L1s, too, but I have been unable to find a verifying photo.) > Bell: Precision Scale makes a very nice PRR air ringer, part no. 585-3155. > > Now 4510: No problem with this tender; several Decs had these at different >times. > Fireman's side: Same problem with the running board and FWH. This engine >also has a mechanical lubricator which definitely was added at a later date. >Engineer's side: Although there were several different running board >configurations, if it goes up and over the train control box, it should also >go over the air compressor. Frank's comments about the in-cab injector are >in error; no injector on this side with a FWH on the engine. In fact, one of >the characteristics of the Dec is the lack of anything > under the engineer except small air brake components. The color photo shows >round parts on the power reverse and train control box painted red; I could >not see a reason to do that. > > So there it is. I just hope this isn't taken as biting criticism, or even >as rivet counting--these are big pieces misapplied. As SPF's we have an >interest in accurate portrayal of the PRR as it used to be. Unfortunately, >this article did not further the state of the art of PRR modeling. > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "mailto:listmaster@dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 06:37:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR BP-20 From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/00 11:35 PM, lew matt at (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote: > I just received a virus, happy exe 99, as an attachment from Jeremy Deasley > with the above subject line. Please don't open this attachment if anyone > else on the list received it. It is an auto-mailing virus that uses your > e-mail address book to automatically send itself to everyone on your list. You must have received it as a direct copy of the e-mail. The listserv will not forward attachments. -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:27:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Stable number series assigned to "Miscellaneous and Work In a message dated 1/9/2000 10:33:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: << The October 1950 ORER list the PRR Miscel and Work Equipment as being 5,241 cars in numbers 480000-499968 and 994486-999953. I suspect if you go back further to the 1920s etc. the numbers might be greater. FWIW the January 1968 ORER lists only 2,320 cars in series 488897-499924 and 994654-999953. >> Al, Interesting that the "Miscellaneous and Work Equipment" grouping is fairly stable. Going back to 1933 gives basically the same picture. The 1933 ORER adds 73 cars in a mysterious X-series: Car assignment Source Issue Car numbers Info source Car types ? 1/1/1933 X929-X9858 ORER work equipment But the familar group for owned roads is stable over 55 years: Car assignment Source Issue Car numbers Info source Car types owned road 1/1/1933 480001-500000 ORER work equipment owned road 10/1/1950 480000-499968 ORER work equipment owned road 4/1/1955 480000-499968 ORER work equipment owned road 4/1/1960 480975-499966 ORER work equipment owned road 1/1/1968 488897-499924 ORER work equipment and the leased road group of work equipment is stable also: Car assignment Source Issue Car numbers Info source Car types leased road 1/1/1933 994000-999999 ORER work equipment leased road 10/1/1950 994486-999953 ORER work equipment leased road 4/1/1955 994486-999953 ORER work equipment leased road 4/1/1960 994654-999953 ORER work equipment leased road 1/1/1968 994654-999953 ORER work equipment The one story appears to be the clearing of 488000-488846. Between 1955 and 1960, a group of F41b flat cars appeared in this space (488000-480299). Between 1960 and 1968, another series of F41b appeared (480300-480349), plus a series of F47's (480350-480374) and one of F48's (480500-480546). I'm sure the nonrevenue series were "hollowing out" somewhat before 1968, as the maintenance philosophy moved toward offtrack, rubber-tire vehicles. Right now that's my favorite theory for why there are so few photos of cars from the numbers 994000 and up. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:47:29 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] CT-1000 Dear List, I was lucky enough to acquire a whole 1945-edition CT-1000 a couple of years ago at the Chicagoland Railroadiana Show (coming up again soon, I believe). It was hardbound with screw-pole binding, and it had pages which had been replaced with later-issue updates (the reason for the screw-pole binding). Someone (much more knowledgeable than I) once informed me that the 1945 edition was the last actually turned out. The previous issue was 1923 (each succeeding issue actually indicated the one it replaced). While issued as a whole volume, it was also turned out in pamphlet-style format for the separate regions with the letter suffixes, which accounts for the CT-1000C, etc. One last question--how much did the eBay copy go for? (I paid $50 for mine four years ago.) Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:04:10 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods and other locos Lew Matt said: >Instead of critiqueing the efforts of each individual that creates a >superdetailed model, why don't we join intellectual forces to research and >identify a "correct" engine number that most closely matches each of Lew >English's kits and make recommendations to Lew on how to most economically >retool or redesign each kit to accurately reflect PRR practice. Lew, this isn't a bad idea, but the problem has always been that Bowser hasn't seemed that responsive! Of course the caveats to that are that they have redesigned when the mold wears out - for example the I-1 in question now has the correct boiler, adn the the Bowser kit really allows you to do whatever you want in the way of detailing! Probably the biggest need I can see in the Bowser line would be for a correct 90F82 tender for the I-1 and correct tenders for the E-6, G-5...We thought for a while that a company called Liberty Models would be doing resin kits...but they've backed of model rr stuff. We maintain the hope that Miracle Castings will get to this someday, when they get the rest of their ambitious itinerary complete! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:47:26 EST Subject: [PRR] What was the Panhandle? (You had to ask) In a message dated 1/8/2000 3:23:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << There is a question on AOL as to what were the limits of the Panhandle. I assume Pittsburgh on one end. What about the other end? Wasn't the whole line to St. Louis reffered to as the "Panhandle"? Thanks. >> I think you've been getting some good answers on "the Panhandle". Remember that the name gets used a number of different ways (see below). Let's see how much fire I take for the following: 1. the Panhandle Railroad was a line of few miles (13?) that crossed West Virginia to reach Steubenville Ohio. This was an achievement partly because of the mountains in West Virginia's panhandle, but mostly because the territory had just ceased to be part of Virginia, a state that had long blocked Pennsy entry as a matter of policy. 2. the Panhandle Division, as has been described in greater detail in some other posts, did run from PH tower (next to Pittsburgh Union Station) to its western connection in Newark OH. BTW that connection, a joint PRR/B&O operation west from Newark to Columbus, is usually referred to as the Ohio Central Division. The Ohio Central had triple track, PRR signals, and B&O-style buildings. 3. despite ending in Newark OH, the Panhandle Div once had a major yard and crew change point at Dennison OH. Dennison was there not so much because of its traffic or connections, but because it was about 100 mountainous miles west of Pittsburgh, and Columbus was about 100 gentler miles west of Dennison. Thus, I have a feeling that once upon a time, Panhandle Div. crews ran Pittsburgh to Dennison, and then other ? crews ran on to Columbus. I also have a feeling this might have started changing about 1922. Engines got bigger then, and longer, faster freights wiped out some traditional crew change points. 4. the Panhandle Div used to be to Pennsy Lines West what the CNO&TP "Rathole Division" was to the Southern. The Panhandle was built with 10 notoriously cramped tunnels, necessitating the funny-looking inward-leaning cupolas on its line (think N6b). Many of the tunnels were daylighted in the 1950's, I'm told; I hope someday to catch up with rail historian Dick Hoover and learn more about this. Jerry Jacobson, President of the current shortline operator, Columbus & Ohio River, has told me that they are currently enlarging Gould's Hollow Tunnel, just west of Mingo Junction and the Ohio River. Gould has been one of the famous problem areas on the line ever since it was opened in the 1860's(?), and is the last holdout for large-clearance cars. 5. leaving Pittsburgh for "the west", the route via Columbus and so on was advertised early as "The Panhandle Route". I believe this applied to both trains for Indianapolis/St. Louis, and for those that branched off at Xenia to go to Cincinnati. So the public conciousness adopted the moniker "the Panhandle". 6. because the Panhandle Division was its entry to Pittsburgh, the whole Pittsburgh Cincinnati & St. Louis tended to be nicknamed the Panhandle. And later, the larger Pittsburgh Cincinnati Chicago & St Louis carried the same name. I believe this was true because the corp. name was too long to say, because it "had always been the Panhandle", and because railroaders if not Americans have always been hell on nicknames. Notice that the nickname "Panhandle" contrasted nicely with the Panhandle's competitor's nickname, the "Big Four" (Cleveland Cincinnati Chicago & St. Louis). I've always been amused that this New York Central System affiliate is just one word off from the Pandhandle's corporate name. 7. In its largest reincarnation, the Panhandle (nickname for the PCC&StL) was connecting Pittsburgh with Cincinnati, Louisville, Vincennes IN, St. Louis, Peoria, Chicago, and South Bend. Evidence is particularly strong in Cincinnati and Chicago that the locals commonly referred to it as "the Panhandle". 8. Panhandle became a local area nickname for the whole Pennsylvania Railroad (I can hear them gagging and retching in Philadelphia tonight). When I started to model the Pennsy, I was living in Dayton Ohio. A more-experienced modeler cautioned me that I'd better learn to call it "the Panhandle". He assured me that was what it was called by the employees of the other railroads in the area. In other words, if a B&O man saw a boxcar with Pennsylvania reporting marks, he referred to it as "a Panhandle box". 8. It might be helpful to ask, "what wasn't the Panhandle?" in railroad and American vernacular. Certainly, the PRR line from Pittsburgh through Lima and Fort Wayne to Chicago wasn't -- it was the PFtW&C or "Fort Wayne", and at one time it and the Panhandle competed for Pittsburgh - Chicago freight, if not passengers. Also, the Cleveland & Pittsburgh isn't the Panhandle -- it was leased early on by the Fort Wayne, and was always considered part of Lines Northwest. Oddly enough, there were a few PRR lines right in the Panhandle's territory that were consolidated after 1920, and aren't usually referred to as the Panhandle. These non-Panhandle lines include the Cleveland, Akron & Columbus (from Columbus through Akron to Hudson, outside of Cleveland). There's also the Cincinnati, Lebanon, and Northern (Cincinnati to Dayton). The CL&N was 3-foot-gauge to 1894, and joined the PRR family in 1896, so maybe it's just too new to be "part of the Panhandle". Hope you and the other listers have enjoyed this trip to Panhandle country.... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Modeling Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods and other locos Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:10:55 -0500 Bruce: It isn't so much that I think Bowser should retool their inventory right away, I think we can supply info to help detail the "existing" kit correctly. Just make it a better product. Why should the multitude of modelers with limited ability be forced to display a marginal model just because they are not privy to information. I've been there, done that, got the bumper sticker etc. Lew English is a good businessman and would know the value of the free information I'm proposing. Even if he paid someone to do the all research, there would still be omissions and an occaisional mistake because it is only one person looking and sifting through the info. Case in point: an author writes a books containing years of research on a subject and invariably, more info turns up! Eventually Bowser will retool everything. Wouldn't it be nice if they had the correct info when they are ready to retool so we get a better product? If this group is willing to share info with me, I'll be glad to put it in a form that can be accessable to the masses. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods and other locos >Lew Matt said: >>Instead of critiqueing the efforts of each individual that creates a >>superdetailed model, why don't we join intellectual forces to research and >>identify a "correct" engine number that most closely matches each of Lew >>English's kits and make recommendations to Lew on how to most economically >>retool or redesign each kit to accurately reflect PRR practice. > >Lew, this isn't a bad idea, but the problem has always been that Bowser >hasn't seemed that responsive! Of course the caveats to that are that they >have redesigned when the mold wears out - for example the I-1 in question >now has the correct boiler, adn the the Bowser kit really allows you to do >whatever you want in the way of detailing! Probably the biggest need I can >see in the Bowser line would be for a correct 90F82 tender for the I-1 and >correct tenders for the E-6, G-5...We thought for a while that a company >called Liberty Models would be doing resin kits...but they've backed of >model rr stuff. We maintain the hope that Miracle Castings will get to >this someday, when they get the rest of their ambitious itinerary complete! > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:48:48 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Updated Layouts Page From: Jerry Britton I've updated the PRR Layouts page on "Keystone Crossings". If you haven't been by in a while, take a look. A noteworthy addition is John Cooper's "Philadelphia Terminal", which includes Suburban Station, 30th Street Station, and ARSENAL. Contact me to have your layout added. It need not be modeled after a PRR prototype. I can host the page(s) for free, or link to your existing page. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TAMRnyMets@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:51:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's Camden and Amboy Branch (Now CR's Amboy Secondary) Hi Everyone!!!! I want to know if anyone has old photos or diagrams of the Pennsy's Camden and Amboy branch ( now CR's Amboy secondary) which runs Camden,NJ to South Amboy,NJ. I am really interested in photos and diagrams of Brown's Yard in Old Bridge , NJ , Jamesburg, NJ, or Moumouth Jct. (Now Amtrak's Midway on the Northeast Corridor(NEC) where the James burg Branch from the C&A meets the NEC) The only thing i've been able to find on the net was a photo of a PC alco at Browns Yard. Thanks alot. Andrew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:57:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Chat Room Proposal From: Jerry Britton An update on the Chat Room Proposal... Requests to date for this service: dozens Donations to date: 2 for $30 Folks, it ain't gonna happen at this rate! Personally, I don't care. I am more than happy to facilitate such a function, but those who want it need to ante up! I will clarify the proposed software however. The proposed software is NOT based on the IRC protocol and will NOT require users to install and learn a new piece of software...which is typically very buggy! The software in question is Java based and works within any modern web browser. If you'd like to see a demo, visit http://www.volano.com . It's pretty slick and I've tested it with numerous browsers from their supported list. More updates to follow as the month progresses... On 12/30/99 2:13 PM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Hello, all! > > Another year is about upon us and it seems time to expand the services > offered by DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM. > > There have been a number of requests over the past year for Chat Room > capability, where users can "login" and discuss matters interactively in > real time. > > To "do it right", I want to use commercially available, high quality > software. I have selected a product in use by many ISP's and corporations, > such as eTrade. > > I have had the requisite hardware on hand for some time. Now it is down to > the software. The cost is $600. > > Desktop Solutions/Merchandise Service is hereby offering to pay up to half > ($300) of this cost if subscribers of our many lists (PRR-Talk, > Conrail-Talk, Reading-Talk, and Cyber-Talk) are willing to donate the > balance. > > I am hereby soliciting your donations for this project. Checks should be > made payable to "Desktop Solutions" and mailed to same at PMB 191; 185 > Newberry Commons; Etters PA 17319. Mark the memo field for "Chat Software". > > I am setting a deadline of January 31 to raise these funds. If the donations > do not reach the $300 mark, all checks will be returned. Updates will be > provided as checks are received. > > If implemented, the "plan" would be to have several chat rooms available all > the time, for public access (e.g. PRR, Reading, Conrail). There would also > be at least one private chat room (Cyber Division PRRT&HS). > > We would also be able to pre-schedule chats which will feature specific > subject matter. > > The software also allows for "auditoriums" where everyone can see messages > but only selected "panelists" may post. > > Chat activity may be automatically logged for latter reference. > > Here's to hoping 2000 is a very chatty year! > > Thank you in advance for your support. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Trombone Man" Subject: [PRR] D-Class Locomotives Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:22:59 -0500 I am searching for the book on the D-Class steam locomotives put out quite a few years ago. Any information would be appreciated. Thank you in advance. DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor www.geocities.com/armconband ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:49:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] D-Class Locomotives One book is "Those Amazing Class "D" Locomotives" that was published in 1981 as a part of the Steam Locomotives of Yesteryear series put out by Harry Albrecht. It's a soft cover book that measures 6" tall by 9" wide. It has some excellent photos of D class engines from the 1860s to the 1930s. Rick trombone@alltel.net writes: << I am searching for the book on the D-Class steam locomotives put out quite a few years ago. Any information would be appreciated. Thank you in advance. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:01:42 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Chat Room Proposal IRC is not all that hard to learn and it does not require any software other than a client (mIRC or Pirch for Windows and ircle for MAC and they are all free) The software is not hard to figure out and would save Jerry the time and effort of putting up a java based chat server. You can go to ANY irc network in the world (there are 1000's) and apply for a "room". Not to have a shameless plug but here goes...irc.zuh.net has a room named #railfan on it...if you have an IRC client...try /server irc.zuh.net and then join #railfan to see what it is like if you dont already know about IRC.... Anyone who is interested can go to http://www.zuh.net/channels/ and fill out a channel registration form and get things rolling...no offense to you Jerry but I too have found most of these web based chats to be extremely problematic... just a thought and like I said the resource is there and it is FREE On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, Jerry Britton wrote: >An update on the Chat Room Proposal... > >Requests to date for this service: dozens > >Donations to date: 2 for $30 > >Folks, it ain't gonna happen at this rate! Personally, I don't care. I am >more than happy to facilitate such a function, but those who want it need to >ante up! > >I will clarify the proposed software however. The proposed software is NOT >based on the IRC protocol and will NOT require users to install and learn a >new piece of software...which is typically very buggy! > >The software in question is Java based and works within any modern web >browser. If you'd like to see a demo, visit http://www.volano.com . It's >pretty slick and I've tested it with numerous browsers from their supported >list. > >More updates to follow as the month progresses... > >On 12/30/99 2:13 PM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > >> Hello, all! >> >> Another year is about upon us and it seems time to expand the services >> offered by DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM. >> >> There have been a number of requests over the past year for Chat Room >> capability, where users can "login" and discuss matters interactively in >> real time. >> >> To "do it right", I want to use commercially available, high quality >> software. I have selected a product in use by many ISP's and corporations, >> such as eTrade. >> >> I have had the requisite hardware on hand for some time. Now it is down to >> the software. The cost is $600. >> >> Desktop Solutions/Merchandise Service is hereby offering to pay up to half >> ($300) of this cost if subscribers of our many lists (PRR-Talk, >> Conrail-Talk, Reading-Talk, and Cyber-Talk) are willing to donate the >> balance. >> >> I am hereby soliciting your donations for this project. Checks should be >> made payable to "Desktop Solutions" and mailed to same at PMB 191; 185 >> Newberry Commons; Etters PA 17319. Mark the memo field for "Chat Software". >> >> I am setting a deadline of January 31 to raise these funds. If the donations >> do not reach the $300 mark, all checks will be returned. Updates will be >> provided as checks are received. >> >> If implemented, the "plan" would be to have several chat rooms available all >> the time, for public access (e.g. PRR, Reading, Conrail). There would also >> be at least one private chat room (Cyber Division PRRT&HS). >> >> We would also be able to pre-schedule chats which will feature specific >> subject matter. >> >> The software also allows for "auditoriums" where everyone can see messages >> but only selected "panelists" may post. >> >> Chat activity may be automatically logged for latter reference. >> >> Here's to hoping 2000 is a very chatty year! >> >> Thank you in advance for your support. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Trombone Man" Subject: Re: [PRR] D-Class Locomotives Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:39:05 -0500 Thank you, that was the information I was looking for. DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor www.geocities.com/armconband ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:23:04 -0500 (EST) From: Don Murphy Subject: Re: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods and other locos I agree that Bowser needs to do a 90f82 tender but it won't happen soon if ever. I found that the ex-Varney 32' tender has the same basic dimension of a 90f82-within a few inchs or so. It can be easily converted to a three foot model of a 90f82. The older plastic ones are easy to work with. Bowser still makes this tender in metal. I did a conversion of one to go along with the Bowser I1s I reviewed for MR a few years back. I wrote a side bar story for them about the conversion but it was never published. I have since sold the engine. I find I like the PFM I1s better. ------Original Message------ From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sent: January 10, 2000 2:04:10 PM GMT Subject: Re: [PRR] Critiqueing Those magnificent Decapods and other locos Lew Matt said: >Instead of critiqueing the efforts of each individual that creates a >superdetailed model, why don't we join intellectual forces to research and >identify a "correct" engine number that most closely matches each of Lew >English's kits and make recommendations to Lew on how to most economically >retool or redesign each kit to accurately reflect PRR practice. Lew, this isn't a bad idea, but the problem has always been that Bowser hasn't seemed that responsive! Of course the caveats to that are that they have redesigned when the mold wears out - for example the I-1 in question now has the correct boiler, adn the the Bowser kit really allows you to do whatever you want in the way of detailing! Probably the biggest need I can see in the Bowser line would be for a correct 90F82 tender for the I-1 and correct tenders for the E-6, G-5...We thought for a while that a company called Liberty Models would be doing resin kits...but they've backed of model rr stuff. We maintain the hope that Miracle Castings will get to this someday, when they get the rest of their ambitious itinerary complete! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". The Renovo Dispatcher Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:48:14 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: 12-1 Sleeper car names Hi, Doug, I have the 1937 and 1950 Pullman car name books, which identify those cars painted for specific railroads, including PRR. What era are you looking for? Subject: 12-1 Sleeper car names From: "Doug and Marianne" Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 11:25:45 -0800 Does anyone have a list of 12-1 Pullman sleeper Car names assigned to PRR? Were any of these cars built with, or modified with, air conditioning? How late were these cars used? Thanks for any help. Doug N. Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:03:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 12-1 Sleeper car names In a message dated 1/9/2000 1:34:29 PM Central Standard Time, babal@slip.net writes: << Does anyone have a list of 12-1 Pullman sleeper Car names assigned to PRR? Were any of these cars built with, or modified with, air conditioning? >> One list of PRR-owned Pullmans (presumably after the Pullman breakup) is Gary Spear's at www.prrths.com/GSPEAR_PRR_Pass_Title.htm. Gives type of air conditioning (most were), truck, etc. Only question I have is that it says Pullmans and Parlor cars, but lists very few parlor cars. I may not understand the ownership of these cars or who operated them, so there may be a technicality here I am missing. In any event the 12-1s that PRR bought, including those few in Pullman colors (green or two-tone gray?--another question) are listed. Bob Reid's Pennsy Journal also listed 12-1s though some(not me) question the accuracy of that list and it did not indicate air conditioning type. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Luciano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Stone Arch Bridges Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:18:35 -0500 Hi All, Does anyone know the company that makes PRR Stone Arch Bridge Kits in HO Scale ? Do they have a website, email, phone ? I think they are called Model Stoneworks ? I want to model a single arch stone bridge with a 4 track mainline which is located near Leaman Place Junction in which the bridge crosses Eshelman Run. Thanks In Advance Dave Luciano ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:15:46 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] D-Class Locomotives --Boundary_(ID_WkUaw/ln78CNZ95RfMWjoQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, Harry Albrecht wrote a book titled Those Amazing Class D Locomotives. Now deceased, he published it in June 1981 (at least that's the date of my copy). All of the D classes are represented. Albrecht stuck with the later PRR class system, which makes the book much easier for the neophyte to understand (some books switch back and forth between the old designation system and the new designation system, which can be excruciating to comprehend when you're 17. Ask me how I know this). The book is 80 pages long. Photo reproduction is pretty good; some of the oldest engines are muddy (but then, the negatives probably were too). My interests run mostly towards the D16sb class; there are only a few pictures, but they include D16sb engines 483 (with oil headlight and markers), 5091 (with round headlight in 1934) and one page is devoted to legendary survivor 1223. My copy is a bit battered; try to get one through interlibrary loan (for those of you so fortunate to be in the Northeast, this should be a piece of cake). As for me, I'm ordering an ILL copy of Pennsy Power II and B&O Steam Finale. Doug Trombone Man wrote: > I am searching for the book on the D-Class steam locomotives put out quite a > few years ago. Any information would be appreciated. Thank you in advance. > > DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor > > www.geocities.com/armconband > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --Boundary_(ID_WkUaw/ln78CNZ95RfMWjoQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,

Harry Albrecht wrote a book titled Those Amazing Class D Locomotives.  Now deceased, he published it in June 1981 (at least that's the date of my copy).  All of the D classes are represented.  Albrecht stuck with the later PRR class system, which makes the book much easier for the neophyte to understand (some books switch back and forth between the old designation system and the new designation system, which can be excruciating to comprehend when you're 17.  Ask me how I know this).

The book is 80 pages long.  Photo reproduction is pretty good; some of the oldest engines are muddy (but then, the negatives probably were too).  My interests run mostly towards the D16sb class; there are only a few pictures, but they include D16sb engines 483 (with oil headlight and markers), 5091 (with round headlight in 1934) and one page is devoted to legendary survivor 1223.

My copy is a bit battered; try to get one through interlibrary loan (for those of you so fortunate to be in the Northeast, this should be a piece of cake).  As for me, I'm ordering an ILL copy of Pennsy Power II and B&O Steam Finale.

Doug

Trombone Man wrote:

I am searching for the book on the D-Class steam locomotives put out quite a
few years ago.  Any information would be appreciated.  Thank you in advance.

DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor

       www.geocities.com/armconband

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--Boundary_(ID_WkUaw/ln78CNZ95RfMWjoQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:40:14 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers Hello list, This (hopefully) will tie in with Lew Matt's thoughts on Bowser kits. I like them a whole bunch, but I find a multitude of small detailing sins that could add up to considerable aggravation. Anyway, some near matches for Bowser kits follow below. This is by no means exhaustive. I just want to get the ball rolling and hopefully stir up some thoughts in the process. Now that Bowser's standard tender is their 130P75, things become a little trickier. For instance, my model of K4s 7133 (in 1946) was done with Bowser's old high side tender (90P75, more or less); that model would not be possible today. Nearly all K4s engines I've seen with a 130P75 have the modernized front end; all of the engines I'll name had it, at least when coupled to the 130P75: 646, 1361, 1453, and 1984. No L1s ever had a 130P75 (let me rephrase this: I've never seen or heard of a 130F75). I'm starting to think about cutting the 130P75 and removing some length to create something close to a 110P75a or 110P75. With a little further work on the rear steps, this could also become a 110F75 for L1s use. Has anyone done this yet? As always, I'd rather follow in someone else's footsteps. You could use the Bachmann 110P70 to come fairly close to a 110P75 (or, if you're willing to stretch a bit, a 110P75a). One M1 that had a 130P75 was the 6810; she was retired in February 1958 with a 130P75. When I get around to it, this will be the M1 that I model (naturally, the M1b will be the 6755). Bowser's currently producing their I1s/I1sa with the long tender (representing a 210P75 or 210F82); numerous I1sa engines had the long tenders with eight wheel trucks, but I believe that these were welded, and you'd need to remove the rivets from the Bowser tender. No E6s ever had a 130P75 tender; substitute MDC's 70P70 (actually a 70P66 for E6s use). Two E6s engines had 90P66 tenders which came from K4s engines (and before them, from I1s engines) which look like Bowser's USRA tender. I eagerly await anyone who produces a 70P82 tender for my G5s. My model of the 5741 has Bowser's old high side tender for want of anything better. Sadly, no G5s engines appear to have had a low sided tender like that of the MDC model. The A5s tender appears to be accurate (or at least I'm comfortable with mine). Anyway, this should at least stir up some thought. Let the flames begin! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:13:32 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR SD40's I sent this question to the list between Christmas and New Years and didn't receive a response. A friend has a Kato SD40 in PRR. The stock horn was broken off by his kids. What would be an apropriate replacement horn for it. I was thinking either Cal-scale of Details West, or Details Associates. Thanks Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:07:50 -0800 Doug--No flames! >I'm starting to think about cutting the 130P75 and >removing some length to create something close to a 110P75a or 110P75. >With a little further work on the rear steps, this could also become a >110F75 for L1s use. Has anyone done this yet? Good idea, but I haven't done it yet either. I was seriously considering doing this, then placing shortened Bowser shell on Bachman frame/trucks, but I sold the Bachman K4. >You could use the Bachmann 110P70 to come fairly close to a 110P75 (or, >if you're willing to stretch a bit, a 110P75a). Don't think so. That tender isn't close to anything. Where top edge transitions from coal bunker to tank top is the major problem. >One M1 that had a 130P75 was the 6810; she was retired in February 1958 >with a 130P75. Also 6845 until retired and 6861 (with bar pilot!) until about 1955 when it got a 210F75a. All three operated at least part of the time on passenger trains in and out of Harrisburg on the Susquehanna Division. >Bowser's currently producing their I1s/I1sa with the long tender >(representing a 210P75 or 210F82); numerous I1sa engines had the long >tenders with eight wheel trucks, but I believe that these were welded, >and you'd need to remove the rivets from the Bowser tender. Most of the I1's with big tenders had the welded/8 wheel truck 210F82a, but there were several that had the riveted/6 wheel truck 210F82 like Bowser's. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 01:18:39 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers This reminds of something I've been curious about; I'm a diesel person so I don't know. Does a list exist of what tenders exist as models (preferably HO) and what they're accurate to run behind? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:04:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Stone Arch Bridges In a message dated 1/10/00 10:27:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, davesrr@snip.net writes: << Does anyone know the company that makes PRR Stone Arch Bridge Kits in HO Scale ? Do they have a website, email, phone ? I think they are called Model Stoneworks ? >> Model Railroad Stoneworks 13235 Summit Square Center Route 413 & Double Woods Road Langhorne, PA 19047 Harold PRRT&HS 5224 Modeling the Middle Division Circa 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:44:37 -0500 (EST) From: Don Murphy Subject: RE: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers ------Original Message------ From: "doug.kisala" To: "prr-talk@dsop.com" Sent: January 11, 2000 4:40:14 AM GMT Subject: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers The A5s tender appears to be accurate (or at least I'm comfortable with mine). Greetings! The A5 tender was the only part of the kit I didn't like. he slope of the water tank seemed all wrong to me ant the curverd portion where it meets the end beem seemed much too shallow. I used an old English A5 tender behind mine. It looked much better porportioned then the Bowser. Don Murphy Renovo Division circa 1946 The Renovo Dispatcher Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Stone Arch Bridges Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:21:54 -0500 Dave, that's a BEAUTIFUL area to model. Are you going to have the overhead wire, too? Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: David Luciano To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 10:24 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Stone Arch Bridges >Hi All, > >Does anyone know the company that makes PRR Stone Arch Bridge Kits in HO >Scale ? >Do they have a website, email, phone ? >I think they are called Model Stoneworks ? > >I want to model a single arch stone bridge with a 4 track mainline >which is located near Leaman Place Junction in which the bridge >crosses Eshelman Run. > >Thanks In Advance >Dave Luciano > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Stone arch bridges Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:43:11 -0500 Hi David: Model Railroad StoneWorks had a table at the last PRRT&HS Annual Meeting. I have one of their brochures in front of my face. All their bridges are not on this one. Great stuff! I plan to buy the PRR Rockville Bridge for my layout. The address is: ModelRailroad StoneWorks PMB 13236 Summit Square Center Rt. 413 & Doublewoods Road Langhorne, PA 19047 Phone:215-321-1331 Fax: 215-321-1332 Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:14:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Stone arch bridges From: Jerry Britton On 1/11/00 1:43 PM, Carl Izzo (CPIZZO@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > Model Railroad StoneWorks had a table at the last PRRT&HS Annual Meeting. I > have one of their brochures in front of my face. All their bridges are not > on this one. Great stuff! I plan to buy the PRR Rockville Bridge for my > layout. The address is: > > ModelRailroad StoneWorks > PMB 13236 Summit Square Center > Rt. 413 & Doublewoods Road > Langhorne, PA 19047 > Phone:215-321-1331 > Fax: 215-321-1332 They have the skewed stone arch bridge for 2, 3, or 4 tracks. The Rockville Bridge is 4 tracks. FYI: I approached them about becoming a dealer for their products but found that they've had very bad experiences with the dealer network. One problem is shipping, since their kits are very heavy. Shipping to the dealer, who then ships to a customer, proved cost-prohibitive. They are going to retain one or two of their existing dealers, but that's it. Buy direct in this case! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] to Ted Andrews & Chicago Div. devotees Date: Tue, 11 Jan 100 16:20:26 -0500 (EST) (or, in keeping with PRR spelling practice e.g. "employe", perhaps I should have spelt it "devotes" ... !) Sorry, Ted, for not writing down your email address. Interlocking diagrams, all that are available to me, of the South Bend Branch are up on the web in the usual location. Again thanks to Steve Long for providing them and to John Cooper for editing them. The rest of the Chicago Division will be up very soon now. Then we tackle the Chesapeake Division (no small feat, that) and then the Panhandle RR ..er.. Panhandle Rwy ..er.. Panhandle Div ..er.. ..um.. The Panhandle, definition number 1 paragraph A subparagraph roman numeral ii clause B, as per Mr. Tipton. :-) -- Mark P.S. "usual location" == http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:28:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Lettering the N6b Rick, I should have included the caveat that until I get Mr. Gates' model T fired up at home (looks like tomorrow, I'm now reloading software and trouble shooting), I'm corresponding from my neighborhood library without easy access to my source material so everything is subject to the vagaries of my memory except FOR THE VALIDITY OF THE POST-USRA LINE-LESS PENNSYVLVANIA SCHEME, MY DEAR MR. TIPTON. OH SHUCKS, ONE OF MY BOYS turned up the volume. Sorry about that Rick. Albeit it was not wide spread, the scheme which was similiar to one of the steam freight car schemes, and was implemented after the official "demise" of the independent operations of the Fort Wayne, the Panhandle and other PLW roads in 1920s. I also should have said that I have seen no N6 wearing the battleship gray 1940-1954 MOW scheme but noted that the class was included in a list on a tracing which referred to MOW colors. I agree wholeheartedly that accuracy is paramount so I defer to Mr. Tipton greater numbers of years and that he lived much closer to the Pennsy in Ohio's Greene and Montogmery Counties (Xenia and Dayton for you non-Buckeyes) when there was really a Pensylvania Railroad. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:36:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Panhandle Route not the Panhandle Division Too all, This took me several years to figure out. The bottom line is that while the Panhandle Division was part of the Pnahandle Route, the terms were not interchangeable. >From 1871 to 1921 the "Panhandle Route" was the trade name of the largest Pennsylvania RR subsidiary the PCC&St.LRR and several precusrs dating back to the J.E.Thompson's move to block Gould's try for a western outlet for his Erie. During that Period, according to all newspapers I've read, the "Panhandle" was the universal name used for the PCC&StL. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:43:12 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: [PRR] Bachmann F7's For a belated Christmas present I got an A-B-B-A set of F7's in PRR...they are Bachmann Silver series. Anyone have any thoughts on them??? Thanks Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:55:50 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Triumph II - PA State Archives Hi all, A quick question: In looking over the copy of "the deuce" (Triumph II) that I recieved for Christmas, I have found some photos of Columbia PA that positively made my mouth water! (Thanks for the heads up Jerry!) In particular, the arial photos on p 174 and 296 are of the prototype of what should be the centerpiece of my model empire!!!!! Both shots appear to have been taken at the same time (early 50's) and appear to contain details that I would love to see, but that are reproduced too small to make out in the book. I would also hope that there might be additional photos of the engine service area, such as the water tanks, turntable and coaling facilities, ca. 1945-50.... The photo credits are both: Tom Hollyman - Penn Central Railroad Collection/Pennsylvania State Archives. Where are these PA State Archives? Other shots in the deuce that I loved were the construction series on the Safe Harbor bridges (even if you got the name of the creek wrong - Mr. Roberts, its Conestoga Creek, not Pequa Creek). BTW, overall, some interesting stuff in the book. Three complaints - poor photo quality (could you have picked a darker grimier picture for the cover?), the chatty/gossipy style, and the silly rant at the end against the PRRT&HS for daring to publish a critical review of his work.... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:09:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Building the Pennsy N6b Claus, It's been a while, Claus. While your logic and grasp of fact is impeccible, such reguilations are frequently used by attorneys and insurers as a measure of a products planned useful life. And these were wood bodied cabin cars on the road that had the first all steel crummies. Tom V. In a message dated Sat, 8 Jan 2000 6:12:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Claus Schlund" writes: > Hi Tom, > > I'm not trying to criticize your excellent post, but since > cabin cars were not interchanged, they would not have > been subject to any "40 year rule". > > > Remember, This was the numerous class of cabin car on the PRR from the late Teens and World War II until at least May 15, 1957 (the date of the cabin car roster published in Bob Johnston's and Gary Roach's Dec. 1973 Keystone)and probably until about 1962 nearly all would have run a foul of the > 40 year rule on cars in interchange. > > > > Any questions? > > > > Tom V. > > > - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:16:05 -0500 From: kickpedal@dca.net Subject: [PRR] Schuylkill Valley Pennsy Fans, This is my first posting so bear with me. I grew up/live in the Philly suburbs so one would think I have a Main Line prejudice. Wrong, I am desperatly searching for information about Pennsy's S. Valley line from Philly to the coal regions (Pottsville,etc.) Photos and written text of this line seem to be a rare find in any Pennsy site/book. Could I be mistaken??? I hear tell from reading an old postings that someone is actually in the process of writing a book about this line. That would be fantastic!!! Can anyone confirm this and if so would would this person(s) be?? Any leads/insights into the S. Valley Pennsy line would be appreciated. Many Thanks.......Rich Nagy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:31:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: What was the Panhandle? (You had to ask) Rick, You and I have been known to quibble over what to call the various lines around Dayton based upon which era one is in. To the average resident of Greene County in the 1860s, what we know as the Panhandle or Dayton, Xenia & Belpre or St. Paris Branch was called the Dayton & Xenia (Railroad, not Dayton & Xenia RAILWAY as the traction line in operation from 1901-1937 was called.) Your quite correct in the southern Ohio usage as it was and independently operated Subsidioary headquartered in Columbus from 1871 to 1920. Its corporate officers were appointed by the Pennsylvania Co., a holding and operations company established in 1871 to manager the PRR holdings west of Pittsburgh. In my research on why the N6 came about (the disasterous loses of the catastrophic Ohio-Indiana flood between March 24 & 28, $29 million, four miles of bridges and 162 miles of treack vanished in less than than a week, the only time in 99 years that the New-York Chicago could not be completed) every newspaper reference is to "Panhandle" of Columbus aand the Pennsylvania or P. Co. of Pittsburgh. One never sees PCC&StL or PFtW&C mentioned in the stories about them Tom V. In a message dated Mon, 10 Jan 2000 9:47:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton writes: > > 8. It might be helpful to ask, "what wasn't the Panhandle?" in railroad and American vernacular. Certainly, the PRR line from Pittsburgh through Lima and Fort Wayne to Chicago wasn't -- it was the PFtW Pittsburgh isn't the Panhandle -- it was leased early on by the Fort Wayne, and was always considered part of Lines Northwest. Oddly enough, there were a few PRR lines right in the Panhandle's territory that were consolidated after 1920, and aren't usually referred to as the Panhandle. These non-Panhandle lines include the Cleveland, Akron N was 3-foot-gauge to 1894, and joined the PRR family in 1896, so maybe it's just too new to be "part of the Panhandle". > > Hope you and the other listers have enjoyed this trip to Panhandle country.... > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Modeling Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) > Operating the Panhandle Route > And Remembering PRR Lines West > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:18:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car List, Is someone on this list recording info on surviving PRR Cabins? If so here is one to put with your files I believe this one was mentioned earlier as a survivor. This N-8 belongs to a Pet Vet in Eastern Ohio. He is also a member of the Beaver Valley Junction (PA.) of the National Railroad Historical Society. I believe he owned this since about 1990? It was in Conrail paint when he recieved. He restored it to what it would have looked like in 1950. Complete with antenna system. The recieving coils were sand casted, in Aluminum I believe, from an original disc that was avaiable from someones collection. The antenna mast resemble the originals somewhat but not identical. The caboose can be seen here. http://www.geocities.com/prrm1/new25.jpg I also updated my home page with a dozen and a half or so model pics. Including the Bethlahem Car Works B-74 Horse Car. I also threw in their B-60 and M70. Enjoy the pics....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:06:15 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II - PA State Archives On Tue, 11 Jan 2000, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > Where are these PA State Archives? In Harrisburg, in (not surprisingly) the State Archives building. Follow the signs to the "State Museum"; It's attached. (Forster St rings a bell but I don't remember) Don't go Sunday, they're closed. And Saturday is microfilm/microfiche only. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Luciano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stone arch bridges Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:58:14 -0500 Thanks Carl & All who replied to my question about PRR Stone Arch Bridges. I contacted them today & they are coming out with a single stone arch bridge the end of January & will have a table at Timonium Show Jan 29 & 30. Model Stoneworks is coming out with this kit as a result of popular demand & an add on to their Rockville Bridge Kit for a smaller or bigger version. I plan on modeling the bridge that is just after Leaman Place heading East. It's a single arch spanning Esheman Run. Dave Luciano Strasburg Model Railroad -----Original Message----- From: Carl Izzo To: davesrr@snip.net Cc: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 2:10 PM Subject: [PRR] Stone arch bridges >Hi David: > >Model Railroad StoneWorks had a table at the last PRRT&HS Annual Meeting. I >have one of their brochures in front of my face. All their bridges are not >on this one. Great stuff! I plan to buy the PRR Rockville Bridge for my >layout. The address is: > >ModelRailroad StoneWorks >PMB 13236 Summit Square Center >Rt. 413 & Doublewoods Road >Langhorne, PA 19047 >Phone:215-321-1331 >Fax: 215-321-1332 > >Carl P. Izzo > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:32:34 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers Derrick, I'm doing this from memory; I may forget a few things. For the most part, we don't have to worry about deck height for HO models, but there is at least one exception (which I'll get to later). MDC sells a PRR tender; it's a good 70P66 (for E6s) or 70P70 (H8s, H9s, early K4s). Bachmann's K4s comes with a 110P70; it has slope sheet rivets that make it appropriate only for hand fired K4s engines (this is the exception). Because of the external slope sheet rivets and the short coal space, it's hard to pass off as appropriate for a stoker fired K4s. I've done some kitbashing on these to get them closer (raising the firing deck by one level of steps), but they still aren't ideal.. Bowser has several tenders. They sell a tender for their A5s that would also be okay for a B6s/B6sa/B6sb; the class escapes me at the moment. They have a coast to coast tender, sold with six and eight wheel trucks. With 6 wheel trucks, it's best for an M1a/M1b, though some I1sa engines also had this tender (Steve Hoxie reminded me of this), and perhaps some M1 engines as well. Behind an M1a/b, the tender with six wheel trucks is a 210P75. With eight wheel trucks, it becomes appropriate for an M1 or I1sa; I think that most of them were welded, but at least a few were riveted. Behind an I1sa, the eight wheel truck tender would be a 210F82 of some sort. Don Harper or Steve Hoxie could probably tell you the exact class (there were, I believe, 210F82a and b as well). Bowser's 130P75 has some issues with rivets on the sides, but I consider it a decent starting point. You can use this tender behind K4s engines, I1s/I1sa engines, and M1 engines. Bowser's USRA tender is a passable starting point for a 90F82 for your I1s/I1sa engines, and in the 20s, 30s, and early 40s, a hand fired K4s. Two E6s engines also had 90P66 tenders converted from 90P70s. Mantua makes a tender that they describe as a PRR tender; I have a PRR atlantic with that tender, and I can't really tell one way or the other what it's prototype is. It looks PRRish, and I'll guess that it's one of the 5500 gallon tenders (55Pwhatever deck height). This about covers what's in production. If I've forgotten anything, I apologize. Doug Derrick J Brashear wrote: > This reminds of something I've been curious about; I'm a diesel person so > I don't know. Does a list exist of what tenders exist as models > (preferably HO) and what they're accurate to run behind? > > -D > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:36:50 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers Lew, As far as online resources, check Rob's PRR page; Jerry has a link to it from Keystone Crossings. Rob has scanned many of the tender diagrams and posted them online. The best article for the Kiesel tenders (11P70, 110P75, 110P75a, 130F82, 130P70, 130P75, and subclasses) was Keyser's article in the Spring 1988 Keystone. There have been other photo features in the Keystone about tenders. For instance, even I can't keep the 70P70 series tenders (subclasses a through f) straight. Doug lew matt wrote: > Doug: > > Nice job! Do you know where I can see a drawing of each of these tenders or > good side view photos of each class. I get confused easily if I don't have > the picture close by. Thanks, > > Lew Matt > > White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that > markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and > vegetables and herbs. > We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA > > WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC > GROWING TECHNIQUES > E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our > all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. > > -----Original Message----- > From: doug.kisala > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 11:37 PM > Subject: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers > > >Hello list, > > > >This (hopefully) will tie in with Lew Matt's thoughts on Bowser kits. > > > >I like them a whole bunch, but I find a multitude of small detailing > >sins that could add up to considerable aggravation. > > > >Anyway, some near matches for Bowser kits follow below. This is by no > >means exhaustive. I just want to get the ball rolling and hopefully > >stir up some thoughts in the process. > > > >Now that Bowser's standard tender is their 130P75, things become a > >little trickier. > >For instance, my model of K4s 7133 (in 1946) was done with Bowser's old > >high side tender (90P75, more or less); that model would not be possible > >today. > > > >Nearly all K4s engines I've seen with a 130P75 have the modernized front > >end; all of the engines I'll name had it, at least when coupled to the > >130P75: 646, 1361, 1453, and 1984. > > > >No L1s ever had a 130P75 (let me rephrase this: I've never seen or heard > >of a 130F75). I'm starting to think about cutting the 130P75 and > >removing some length to create something close to a 110P75a or 110P75. > >With a little further work on the rear steps, this could also become a > >110F75 for L1s use. Has anyone done this yet? As always, I'd rather > >follow in someone else's footsteps. > >You could use the Bachmann 110P70 to come fairly close to a 110P75 (or, > >if you're willing to stretch a bit, a 110P75a). > > > >One M1 that had a 130P75 was the 6810; she was retired in February 1958 > >with a 130P75. When I get around to it, this will be the M1 that I > >model (naturally, the M1b will be the 6755). > > > >Bowser's currently producing their I1s/I1sa with the long tender > >(representing a 210P75 or 210F82); numerous I1sa engines had the long > >tenders with eight wheel trucks, but I believe that these were welded, > >and you'd need to remove the rivets from the Bowser tender. > > > >No E6s ever had a 130P75 tender; substitute MDC's 70P70 (actually a > >70P66 for E6s use). Two E6s engines had 90P66 tenders which came from > >K4s engines (and before them, from I1s engines) which look like Bowser's > >USRA tender. > > > >I eagerly await anyone who produces a 70P82 tender for my G5s. My model > >of the 5741 has Bowser's old high side tender for want of anything > >better. Sadly, no G5s engines appear to have had a low sided tender > >like that of the MDC model. > > > >The A5s tender appears to be accurate (or at least I'm comfortable with > >mine). > > > >Anyway, this should at least stir up some thought. Let the flames > >begin! > > > >Doug > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:03:07 -0800 Derrick--No list exists, but it isn't difficult to come up with one since the options are few. Excluding Bowser's switcher tender which I have never seen, there are only the MDC 70P70 and Bowser's 130P75 and 210F75 among the non-brass possibilities for PRR tenders. I am calling the early era before 1940, late era is after 1950. For the 1940's the typical was rapidly changing, so modeling steam is particularly challenging. MDC 70P70 E6--any era H8, H9--any era Bowser 130P75 I1--any era, but in the 50's especially engines working north of Elmira. K4--any era as long as engine is equipped with stoker. M1(not M1a/b)--late era only, at least four engines Bowser 210F75 I1--any era. Early era had at least one. K4--early era only, at least six engines. M1--late era only M1a/b--any era Most needed, in order of need, in my opinion: 90F82 H9, H10--late era I1--any era K4--early era 110P75 (including 110P75a) K4--any era as long as engine had stoker L1--late era M1--early era, possible late 250P75 (or 250F82) I1--late era K4--early era only, probably only four engines M1--any era M1a/b--late era 210F75a (or 210F82a) I1--late era M1--late era M1a/b--late era Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:30:06 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Matching Bowser kits with prototype steamers Steve Hoxie said: >Bowser 130P75 > I1--any era, but in the 50's especially engines working north >of Elmira. Ohoh, I get to disagree with Steve on a tender subject (so to speak! ) Working from memory (alway dangerous) Keyser's article in the Spring 1988 Keystone indicates that these tenders were plentiful (~100) on I1s prior to the mid 30's when they were all converted to 130P75 for use with the K4 and M1. Subsequently, in the late 40's or ealy 50's four of these tenders were converted back to 130F82a for use with I1s...Interestingly, these appear to have been used almost exclusively norht of Elmira as Steve indicates. Thus, a 13,000 gal tender should not appear behind an I1 from the mid 30's though the late 40's. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PA Archives Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:14:42 -0000 Bruce and list, The PA State archives are located on the corner of 3d and Foster Streets in HBG. Open Tues-Fri 0900-1600. Saturdays are typically by special arrangement only at a steep fee. A contact person is Mike Sherbon at 717-772-5070. In comparison to the folks at the Hagley I found this group to be extremely paranoid about people trying to steal documents. They have rigid rules about photocopying information. It takes awhile (weeks) and is relatively costly, at least compared to the Hagley. Another alternative for aerial photos is the US Geological Survey, National Cartographic Center, 507 National Center, Reston, VA. TP 703-860-6045. Talk with Alan Simpson others have said he is helpful. They have imagery going back to the 1940s. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:11:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II - PA State Archives In a message dated 01/11/2000 18:11:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > Where are these PA State Archives? The Pennsylvania State Archives are maintained by the Pennsylvania State Historical and Museum Commission in Harrisburg, PA. To locate files, you first need to identify the manuscript groups and then search the groups by hand. The files are not sorted or organized in any fashion just shelved as received. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AndersonCL@nswccd.navy.mil Subject: [PRR] BROAD STREET STATION - PHILADELPHIA Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:44:57 -0500 Folks - There have been recent discussions regarding research assets contained at both Hagley and PA Archieves in Harrisburg... I've been researching - and collecting, assorted documents related to Philadelphia rail history. After more than 30 years of accumlating notes notes and collecting PRR; RDG; B&O and traction predecessors and successors, I recently came across an extensive document titled - A STUDY & REVIEW OF THE PROBLEM OF PASSENGER TRANSPORTATION IN PHILADELPHIA Subtitled "Analysis of the plans proposed for its soution with suggested methods for their improvement". This vast and comprehensive document was written by the Cities then Transit Engineer Wm. Twining in 1916. Here's an interesting "revelation"... Subscribers may be familiar with the Cities long standing efforts to eliminate city street grade crossings. This effort started very early in the 1830's when steam locomotion was banded within the cities original limits - River to River/ South to Vine Streets. By the last quarter of the 19th Century the rail network was highly developed, complex and riddled with hazardous grade crossings... at this point the city became deeply involved with Pennsy, RDG and B&O in a joint program to eliminate these hazards. There are extremely interesting histories involving such segments as the PRR's connectling line between ZOO and Frankford Jct. or the RDG's Pennsylvania Avenue Subway, elevation of their 9th Street Branch, etc. What I found to be stunning was the detailed plan to eliminate Broad Street Station and its elevated "Chinese Wall" approaches that dated from 1881. In 1916, the 30th "main station" complex wasn't even thought of, but, it is well known that the city wanted to rid itself of the "Chinese Wall"... that didn't happen until nearly 50 years later. One of the detailed plans was for the PRR and city to jointly develop and construct a downtown subway... utlimately, this was to become what we know of as the Broad Street "Orange Line" (BSS) of SEPTA. Along with the detailed discussion are several detailed drawings which show a PRR electrified... 3rd rail, subway along Ridge Avenue from a junction with the Connecting RR east of ZOO near the present crossing of "the Ridge". At Fairmount Avenue the tunnel joined the BSS and proceeded south to City Hall where a sharp turn west was made to a new station... present location of PRR's Suburban Station, thence west where the tunnel exited on the west side of the Schuykill River and turned south toward Washington or west toward Harrisburg. The tunnel was projected to be a minimum of 3 tracks with advanced reverse operation. As a result the congestion at ZOO would be reduced to freight only the vast facilities at 30th street eliminated... engine houses, stock yards, etc. and all trains from the west could make a center city downtown stop rather than having North Philadelphia as there primary city stop. Here's the "rub"... I am unaware of any PRR documentation which discusses their view of this plan. Obviously, Pennsy had to have had either an idea or clue as to the contents of this study. Yet it is new, interesting and arguably a solid plan to what really was accomplished 25 years later. Are there any "out there" that have encountered similar well documented official plans of communities that were obviously jointly discussed with the railroads. regards, Chas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "P Grace" Subject: [PRR] Athearn 2-8-2 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 19:06:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF5D30.2DCA28A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having looked at a picture of No 9360 at Cincinnati in 1936 in the book = America's Workhorse Locomotive the 2-8-2. The changes to make the = Genesis 2-8-2 to the same condition appear to be: 1. New marker lights on the tender deck and the on top of the buffer = beam. 2. A backup light on the tender 3. The semi-circular projections on the bottom of the tender are not = visible. 4. Change the B&O headlight to a PRR example 5. Move the steam generator to infront of the smoke stack 6. Move the whistle to the other side of the dome 7. Fit a smaller smoke box door and move the handrail below up. 8. Remove the steam line=20 While this might be worth doing as I had to pay the equivalent of US$160 = for the engine and it looks fine as it is I won't bother.. Patrick Grace ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF5D30.2DCA28A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having looked at a picture of No 9360 = at Cincinnati=20 in 1936 in the book America's Workhorse Locomotive the 2-8-2. The = changes to=20 make the Genesis 2-8-2 to the same condition appear to be:
 
1. New marker lights on the tender deck = and the on=20 top of the buffer beam.
2. A backup light on the = tender
3. The semi-circular projections on the = bottom of=20 the tender are not visible.
4. Change the B&O headlight to a = PRR=20 example
5. Move the steam generator to infront = of the smoke=20 stack
6. Move the whistle to the other side = of the=20 dome
7. Fit a smaller smoke box door and = move the=20 handrail below up.
8. Remove the steam line
 
While this might be worth doing as I = had to pay the=20 equivalent of US$160 for the engine and it looks fine as it is I won't=20 bother..
 
Patrick Grace
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF5D30.2DCA28A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:11:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR 2-8-8-2 Tender Sill List, Here is a follow up of the continuing thread on the Tender problem of the new LifeLike Proto 2000 2-8-8-2. I believe it was Bruce Smith that said the tender that comes with the Y-3 is wrong for the Pennsy version. Sadly this is correct. Pennsy had the Fish Belly tender sill. The model has the straight sill. The way I understand it is the fish belly sill was used on the 18,000 gallon tender and the straight sill was used on the 16,000 gallon tender. The PRR HH-1 used the 18,000 gal. version with the fish belly sill. I was thinking about this problem today. The sill that is on the model is an added on detail part. It is removeable. Getting rid of the straight one is no problem. However finding a fish belly replacement is. Hey Pat from Miracle Castings, are you there? Is it possible for you to design and manufacture a small production run of suitable resin fish belly sills for us Pennsy nuts here on PRR-Talk? Just a thought! I know it won't magically change the 16,000 gal tender into a 18.000 gallon tender but at least the correct looks will be there......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:23:14 -0000 I know many of you all know this. However, I notice that some people continue use the term P. Co. when they are actually referring to the PRR. I have even seen it used incorrectly in secondary source books, so much for their accuracy. The term P. Co. is not a 'cutesy' name for the PRR, P. Co. is an acronym for the Pennsylvania Company, while the PRR is an acronym for The Pennsylvania Railroad. The P. Co. was formed in 1870 when the PRR was at the peak of its major expansion beyond Pittsburgh. At that time the PRR had created a system of over 3000 miles west of Pittsburgh and Erie. This put a strain on the management capabilities of the organization headquartered in Philadelphia. So rather than attempting to spread the existing PRR over all of this new territory it was decided to set up a new company (the P. Co)which would hold the leases of and manage all of the lines west of Pittsburgh and Erie. The P. Co. survived as a controlling organization until March 1, 1920 when the Lines East/Lines West concept was scrapped and the entire railroad was reorganized as the PRR with four operating regions. At this time all of the operating property leases that had been under control of the P. Co. were transferred back to the PRR and the P. Co. reverted to a general holding company for various properties.. In December 1958 the P.Co. was reincorporated in the State of Delaware and became the PRR's vehicle for handling the diversification into Buckeye Pipeline and various real estate ventures. * Lines West was divided into the Northwest System and the Southwest System. Although the P. Co. held the leases of both Systems it is my understanding that they actually only managed the Northwest System (a.k.a. The Fort Wayne Route) while the Southwest System (a.k.a. The Panhandle Route) managed themselves. So for all practical purposes three separately managed companies all came together at Pittsburgh - The Northwest System, the Southwest System and Lines East. Al FPE ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:41:45 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Tenders - G5s Hi all. While it's not currently in production, back in the 70's there was briefly a plastic boiler and tender version of the G5s, released I believe by Life-Like (imported from Austria I believe). I bought one then, which I still have. They couldn't pull much despite the traction tire on one driver, but it was cheap and I was in college, thrilled to get a reasonably close PRR steamer that I could superdetail easily because of the plastic construction. Obviously, it's still with me for sentimental reasons. I bought two more at a Greenburg Show in Philadelphia (Valley Forge, actually) about 2 years ago, for about the same amount that I paid for the one in the 70's. I saw 2 of them for sale on e-bay a few months back. Sorry, I digress; on to the tender. I always thought that the tender looked pretty good compared to pictures of 70P82's in Pennsy Power 1,2,3 and the G5s article in Trains magazine back in the 70's. I'm gonna dig those tenders out and take my scale rule to them and report back, unless someone else has already done so and can weigh in with a judgement before then. Well, soon as I find some reliable measurements for the 70P82. I just checked the diagrams at Rob Schoenberg's site; there's no 70P82 diagram. Nor is there a G5s diagram. I think I have something somewhere; can anyone help with hints? Thanks. Jim Anderson PRRT&HS 3995 Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:40:56 -0500 Alan: Your dissertation on the P Co. was interesting and very enlightening. I never knew this before. I am an oldtimer and have heard the PRR referred to as the P Co. all my life and it is in almost all my reference books. How are you going to educate the masses? Is it worth trying to educate the masses? Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Alan Buchan To: PRR-TALK Date: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 8:28 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. >I know many of you all know this. However, I notice that some people >continue use the term P. Co. when they are actually referring to the PRR. I >have even seen it used incorrectly in secondary source books, so much for >their accuracy. The term P. Co. is not a 'cutesy' name for the PRR, P. Co. >is an acronym for the Pennsylvania Company, while the PRR is an acronym for >The Pennsylvania Railroad. >The P. Co. was formed in 1870 when the PRR was at the peak of its major >expansion beyond Pittsburgh. At that time the PRR had created a system of >over 3000 miles west of Pittsburgh and Erie. This put a strain on the >management capabilities of the organization headquartered in Philadelphia. >So rather than attempting to spread the existing PRR over all of this new >territory it was decided to set up a new company (the P. Co)which would hold >the leases of and manage all of the lines west of Pittsburgh and Erie. The >P. Co. survived as a controlling organization until March 1, 1920 when the >Lines East/Lines West concept was scrapped and the entire railroad was >reorganized as the PRR with four operating regions. At this time all of the >operating property leases that had been under control of the P. Co. were >transferred back to the PRR and the P. Co. reverted to a general holding >company for various properties.. In December 1958 the P.Co. was >reincorporated in the State of Delaware and became the PRR's vehicle for >handling the diversification into Buckeye Pipeline and various real estate >ventures. > >* Lines West was divided into the Northwest System and the Southwest System. >Although the P. Co. held the leases of both Systems it is my understanding >that they actually only managed the Northwest System (a.k.a. The Fort Wayne >Route) while the Southwest System (a.k.a. The Panhandle Route) managed >themselves. So for all practical purposes three separately managed companies >all came together at Pittsburgh - The Northwest System, the Southwest System >and Lines East. > >Al >FPE > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:50:23 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR T& HS Annual Mtg Last month I received my turn around document to send back to the Society for information regarding the annual meeting. However, I still have not received anything back from them. Has anyone received information about the meeting? Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:56:17 EST Subject: [PRR] Prototype Modelers meet Hey Yuze Gize, Jim Six and Bob Harpe are organizing a Prototype Modelers meet in Savannah, GA this March 24th and 25th. It is a Friday and Saturday meet, open to all scales and modelers not just Southeastern Modelers. Everyone's welcome at this event. They have secured some cheap room rates ($44.95 per night) and the events cost is a fraction of most only 10 bucks ... in warm weather. For more details here's a link! http://www.rpmrail.org/events.htm Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:17:20 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. lew matt wrote: > Alan: > > Your dissertation on the P Co. was interesting and very enlightening. I > never knew this before. I am an oldtimer and have heard the PRR referred > to as the P Co. all my life and it is in almost all my reference books. Al & List: I cannot resist adding to this. I grew up along the PRR in southern New Jersey. I never once heard the railroad referred to as the P. Company until I got to Cleveland, and then first by an old B&O west end man. I too assumed that what I was hearing was a reference to the old Lines West operation. But wait--Lew Matt... where did you grow up hearing the PRR referred to as the P. Co.? Let's do some informal polling here to see if we can get a better idea of where the nickname came from. So, how many Lines East people are used to the term? Anyone want to respond? For the record, the Lines West operating organization, though officially divided into Northwest and Southwest systems actually shared identical top management. After Scott, all PRR presidents also served as the Pennsylvania Company president. And the VPs of the latter served in the same positions with the Pan Handle (two words, by-the-way, sometimes hyphenated). Middle and lower management differed between the two Lines West groups, superintendents, of course, and also chief engineers. But, both NW and SW systems shared Freight traffic managers and General passenger agents. Part of the reason for two operating groups was that there were a substantial number of minority stockholders of the Pan Handle with slightly different board representation from time to time. Even so, Lines West was a pretty tightly run outfit, often much more aggressive than the parent. Offices were in Pittsburgh. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:49:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. In a message dated 1/12/2000 8:55:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes: << Alan: Your dissertation on the P Co. was interesting and very enlightening. I never knew this before. I am an oldtimer and have heard the PRR referred to as the P Co. all my life and it is in almost all my reference books. How are you going to educate the masses? Is it worth trying to educate the masses? Lew Matt >> Lew, Is it POSSIBLE to educate the masses? Actually this affords us the opportunity to play a little word game: "Pittsburgh was where the PRR met the P. Company and the Panhandle." Or worse yet, for awhile there were some ratty black leased F7's running around from Precision Engineering, lettered simply PECO on the side. So you could hear a railfan conversation like, "There are PECO units on the Panhandle, but it's all PRR on the P. Company. What's the power on the Pennsy?" Dizzy yet?...... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 02:07:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann F7's Will and All, It really depends on your thoughts on them, not ours. You opinion is the most important, not ours. But this might help. According to the review in Rail Model Journal they rated an over all higher score than the Athearn and nearly the same as the Stewart/KATO, that's right read the review. That being said, I would not kick them around so much. There where some early reviews that pointed out some problems with the anticlimber portion above the pilot. I always thought that there was something wrong with the wind shield area too, but no one would go that far. Some positive things about it were that the radius on the cab roof is good the grill work is good the overall tooling is quite nice. Like all of the current F-units in production you must change out the pilot to the enclosed couple pilot for the PRR. I have never seen the B-unit frame with the shell off and would be interested in seeing it as I would like to use the powerframe for an Intermountain shell. So, with that in mind run them and have fun. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 02:24:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. From: Michael Allen Having worked as a contractor for the Estate attempting to prepare a comprehensive list of Who-owned-what, I learned early the difference between the PRR, the P Co, PennRoad, et c. Of course it all began with the Frenchtowne and New Castle Turnpike Co. MEA __________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen, Managing Partner meallen@juno.com W.R. ALLEN Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:17:20 -0600 Richard Wallis writes: > > > lew matt wrote: > > > Alan: > > > > Your dissertation on the P Co. was interesting and very > enlightening. I > > never knew this before. I am an oldtimer and have heard the PRR > referred > > to as the P Co. all my life and it is in almost all my reference > books. > > Al & List: > > I cannot resist adding to this. I grew up along the PRR in southern > New > Jersey. I never once heard the railroad referred to as the P. > Company until I > got to Cleveland, and then first by an old B&O west end man. I too > assumed that > what I was hearing was a reference to the old Lines West operation. > But > wait--Lew Matt... where did you grow up hearing the PRR referred to > as the P. > Co.? Let's do some informal polling here to see if we can get a > better idea of > where the nickname came from. > > So, how many Lines East people are used to the term? Anyone want to > respond? > > For the record, the Lines West operating organization, though > officially divided > into Northwest and Southwest systems actually shared identical top > management. > After Scott, all PRR presidents also served as the Pennsylvania > Company > president. And the VPs of the latter served in the same positions > with the Pan > Handle (two words, by-the-way, sometimes hyphenated). Middle and > lower > management differed between the two Lines West groups, > superintendents, of > course, and also chief engineers. But, both NW and SW systems > shared Freight > traffic managers and General passenger agents. > > Part of the reason for two operating groups was that there were a > substantial > number of minority stockholders of the Pan Handle with slightly > different board > representation from time to time. Even so, Lines West was a pretty > tightly run > outfit, often much more aggressive than the parent. Offices were in > Pittsburgh. > > Richard Wallis > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 06:23:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T& HS Annual Mtg From: Jerry Britton On 1/12/00 8:50 PM, JOELPRR@aol.com at (JOELPRR@aol.com) wrote: > Last month I received my turn around document to send back to the Society for > information regarding the annual meeting. However, I still have not received > anything back from them. Has anyone received information about the meeting? You won't yet. I am a member of the NC chapter hosting the event. They are using your mail-ins to build the mailing list for when the materials are available. They are doing this because a separate mailing IS required this year because the program was not developed in time for the Winter Keystone but the Spring Keystone will be too late. I'd expect things to go out around March 1. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Hutchinson Subject: [PRR] PRR/ Striegel Supply Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:27:15 -0500 In 1980, I photographed a PRR RS-1, E-7 A-B-A and an FM H16-44, all fully lettered for PRR, at Striegel Supply in Baltimore. I have not been back there since. Anyone out there know of the dispositions of these units? David Hutchinson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:40:23 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2-8-8-2 Tender Sill On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Gary Mittner wrote: > The sill that is on the model is an added on detail part. It is > removeable. Getting rid of the straight one is no problem. However > finding a fish belly replacement is. Hey Pat from Miracle Castings, are > you there? Is it possible for you to design and manufacture a small > production run of suitable resin fish belly sills for us Pennsy nuts > here on PRR-Talk? Just a thought! I know it won't magically change the > 16,000 gal tender into a 18.000 gallon tender but at least the correct > looks will be there......Gary Gary, Do you know what the other differencers are betwen the tenders? My Y-3 is sitting 50 miles away at the dealer's shop, and I plan on picking it up later today. I will try to compare the tender against the drawings in the N&W Y book. I'm not sure that there are too many other differences! As for the side sill of the tender...let me look at it, but I can probably put together a master, rubber mold, and cast parts if Pat isn't interested for those few of us who will want to do this Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Hutchinson Subject: [PRR] Maryland/ Berlin to Ocean City Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:47:51 -0500 I am looking for information on the PRR/PC branch from Berlin to Ocean City. I know that the Ocean City Western operated this stretch for a short time during the 1970's. I would like to know when the track was torn up and if there are any "signs" of the branch still there (bridges, roadbed, etc.). I would also like to know what type of motive power was used there from 1952 to the end of PC operations and what type of freight was handled during that period. David Hutchinson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:57:43 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tenders - G5s On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 SNY114@aol.com wrote: > Well, soon as I find some reliable measurements for the 70P82. I just checked > the diagrams at Rob Schoenberg's site; there's no 70P82 diagram. Nor is there > a G5s diagram. I think I have something somewhere; can anyone help with > hints? Thanks. The Cyclopedia, Vol 1, Steam Locomotives (Model Railroader/Kalmbach Publishing) page 118-119. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:04:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2-8-8-2 Tender Sill Bruce wrote, Gary, "Do you know what the other differencers are betwen the tenders? My Y-3 is sitting 50 miles away at the dealer's shop, and I plan on picking it up later today. I will try to compare the tender against the drawings in the N&W Y book. I'm not sure that there are too many other differences! As for the side sill of the tender...let me look at it, but I can probably put together a master, rubber mold, and cast parts if Pat isn't interested for those few of us who will want to do this" Bruce, I looked more closely at the tender last night. I actually popped off the body shell so I could remove one of the sills to look at it better. It wouldn't be to hard to modify that slightly to get the proper fish belly style. The fish belly drop starts right behind the last wheelset of the front truck and comes back up at the first wheelset of the back truck. Again I refered to photos. I then noticed a problem that couldn't help be noticed. The shortness of the tender coal space itself is noticeable. Probably more noticeable is the fish belly sill would be used. When you get yours look it over and let me know your opinion. Other than that it is an excellent looking tender. Just happens to be the wrong version for the Pennsy. What about the tender from a Rivarossi Y-6? I Have to look at photos now.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:38:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T& HS Annual Mtg Last month I received my turn around document to send back to the Society for information regarding the annual meeting. However, I still have not received anything back from them. Has anyone received information about the meeting? Well I just got my society renewal from this week in the Chicago area. Since they send everything by bulk mail it may take awhile. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:42:26 EST Subject: [PRR] FF2's Can anybody give me some technical reasons why the FF2's needed both pantographs to operate? I know that every description say's, " Because they are motor generators they need both pantographs up to operate". Why? Thanks for any input on this. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:51:57 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] FF2's On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > Can anybody give me some technical reasons why the FF2's needed both > pantographs to operate? I know that every description say's, " Because they > are motor generators they need both pantographs up to operate". Why? Thanks > for any input on this. Some EE can probably tell you better, but basically if one pan bounced off the wire and the motor got out of phase with the A/C when it hit the wire again you'd have a large spark, basically. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:03:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Number of Subscribers From: Jerry Britton > ***Wow, we now have over 500 subscribers to Our Family of Fax Lists ! Seems as if Some Folks like to TOOT their horn... Do they think Quantity is more important than Quality? If so, the DSOP.COM / PENNSYRR.COM family of lists has 1161 subscribers. TOOT TOOT! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:21:08 -0500 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR vs. P. Co. Greetings to all- Here in Detroit, PRR came into town as the Toledo Branch. A railroad map (that has no date or publisher on it) refers to this line and other PRR properties as the Pennsylvania Detroit RR. Pere Marquette peoperties are refered to as C&O, so this suggests that it was published after 1947. PRR used trackage rights over Wabash and C&O from its own Lincoln Yard in Lincoln Park to access its various branches around town. One of these branches was called the West Belt, which forked off of the C&O Detroit Division about 2 miles west of C&O Rougemere Yard. Pere Marquette called this location West Belt Junction. Chessie System also called this location West Belt Junction. ***CSX calls it P Company Junction.*** Bibliography: C&OHS, The Pere Marquette in 1945 (1981). Chessie System Detroit Division ETT, Page 43 (197?). CSXT Detroit Service Lane ETT #2, Page 7 (1999). Regards- Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:45:37 EST Subject: [PRR] "P Company" Moniker Folks, Personally, I don't understand any concern over the usage of 'P Company'. So what if it's an old west-of -Pittsburgh usage from the 1920's or earlier? I can think of railroad nicknanes in current usage over a hundred years after the pasage of the corporate entity that inspired them. The M&StL built it's Duluth line in the 1870's, selling it to the NP back in the 19th century, but it's still the "Skalley" in every mention I've ever heard. UP's Council Bluffs-St.Paul line is still the "Omaha" many decades after the MStPC&O was rolled into the C&NW. The nanes New Haven and Katy will likely outlive most of us, as will who knows how many others. 'P Company"? Don't use the term myself, but it certainly doesn't bother me if someone else wants to. And evidence from around Motown seems to indicate the term hasn't died out even in officially published form as yet. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:30:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P5A's (Equalization Redux) In a message dated 00-01-03 11:04:30 EST, Bruce Smith wrote: << NDBPRR@aol.com asked: >Anybody know why the top P5A equalization links slope at about a 30 degree >angle on some units and is parallel to the rail on other units? Just happens...watch some videos and you'll see that they appear to be quite mobile, and the location is just where they end up... Happy Rails Bruce >> I've been thinking about this query for some time now, and have reviewed as many pictures of P5A's as I could spot. It appears that while the motor is in obvious motion, the equalizer links always appear "level". When the picture is of a stationary motor, the rearmost link is lowered toward the rearmost axle, as if the brakes on the rearmost axle applied slightly less force, and the rearmost axle "wound up" toward the direction of motion (only maybe six degrees or so, but enough to cause the link in front of that axle to drop). And why less force? initial application of brakes would cause a weight transfer toward the front and middle axles: the increased weight on those axles would allow a greater amount of brake effort to apply to those axles, and the rearmost axle would go "light". From this, it would seem that a P5A slowing down without brakes would show both sets of links tipping down toward the direction of motion, but that a brake application would cause the tipping down AWAY from the direction of motion, with a more obvious angle in the rearmost link. (Dennis Miller rebuttal inserted here). I've crawled back to the P5A at St. Louis, but didn't have this question in mind while looking at it. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:51:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR 2-8-8-2 Bruce, I just recieved my second LifeLike Y-3. Runs as good as my first one so it is no fluke. Now I have to figure out which one I want to covert to the Pennsy HH-1. The research begins. I don't have much info on theses locos. Just what appears in Penny Power books. Side by side they look identical. My numbers are N&W 2011 and 2019. Upon close inspection there are differences in both the loco and the tender. First the tenders. Number 2011 has stirrup steps. The 2019 has foot boards steps. That is the only difference in tenders. I believe 5 of the 6 Pennsy versions had the footboard tender steps. Look on page 78 of PP 3, middle photo. There is a brakeman standing on these steps. Now the Loco. Number 2011 has a tube pilot and a "Y" shaped steam pipe located under the headlight. The Number 2019 has no "Y" shaped pipe and it has a foot board pilot like that pictuered in PP 3 on page 79 bottom photo and page 78 bottom photo. On the model 2019 the headlight sets on an inverted V bracket similar to that pictured on page 79 in PP 3 bottom photo. Follow me so far? Good, it gets fun now. I took a look in Pennsy Power 1because I was interested in what this book had to offer in photos of the HH-1. PRR # 373 is pictured. It is shown with the tube pilot and the "Y" steampipe beneath the headlight and no footboards on the tender or loco. Getting back to the models. It appears either 2011 or the 2019 is good for a PRR HH-1. It appears that #2011 is only good for PRR #373 and 2019 is good for the other 5, PRR #'s 374 375 376 377 and 378. You may have a little more info than me. Am I correct as to what I have found out so far? The details that I plan on changing to convert this into the PRR HH-1 are as follows. 1. Add the Keystone Number Plate. 2. Change the Loco Class lights to PRR style and add the PRR tender markers. 3. Remove the lettering/paint and decal witth the appropriate PENNSYLVANIA lettering. 4. Remove cast on builder plates and add one of those etched brass PRR types that are available from Schukyll Division. 5. Tender sill? 6. If I use the loco with tube pilot N&W 2011, I will add the steel plate as pictuered on page 26 of PP1 as seen on PRR #373. That covers anything that I would do. I might come across something else later but thats about it. Now to find the time to actually start the work. When finished I will have both the N&W version and the Pennsy version. Stay tuned for a photo of the completed HH-1.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LIRRMIKE@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:17:18 EST Subject: [PRR] LIRR List, Yes, I know this list is for PRR, but the LIRR was a stepchild once, so I'm hoping someone out there can help me - I'm looking for track plans, maps on the Long Island City area not just Sunnyside but the whole area, siding and such. Thanks everyone. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:49:26 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Kris Kollar's Excellent L1s article in Mainline Modeller Kris and the list, Very well done on the L1s article! It's nice to see a thoroughly researched article about PRR steam! I eagerly await the article on the engine. For those of you that have seen the L1s pictures at the RPM web site, the engine looks even better in the magazine! I will be using this article to detail my future L1s (in my case, the 520). One minor historical correction. L1s 520 was retired in August 1957 (per page 365 of Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster). The engine that pulled the 20 October 1957 fan trip to Northumberland was L1s 559 (Juniata 11/14, sc 8/59). Staufer made this error in Pennsy Power I. By the way, L1s 559 was apparently the last active road engine (ie lead and trailing trucks) for the PRR; she supplied steam in New Jersey early in 1959 before being sold for scrap. Keep up the great work! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:53:20 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn 2-8-2 --Boundary_(ID_60YdPp+r76ilb5hSo8E/1A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick and the list, I came to just about the same conclusion. I did break down and paint the cab roof and cistern deck my preferred shade of red (Testors Model Master Acrylic Rust), but that was about it. I so rarely have quick projects.... Doug P Grace wrote: > Having looked at a picture of No 9360 at Cincinnati in 1936 in the > book America's Workhorse Locomotive the 2-8-2. The changes to make the > Genesis 2-8-2 to the same condition appear to be: 1. New marker lights > on the tender deck and the on top of the buffer beam.2. A backup light > on the tender3. The semi-circular projections on the bottom of the > tender are not visible.4. Change the B&O headlight to a PRR example5. > Move the steam generator to infront of the smoke stack6. Move the > whistle to the other side of the dome7. Fit a smaller smoke box door > and move the handrail below up.8. Remove the steam line While this > might be worth doing as I had to pay the equivalent of US$160 for the > engine and it looks fine as it is I won't bother.. Patrick Grace --Boundary_(ID_60YdPp+r76ilb5hSo8E/1A) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick and the list,

I came to just about the same conclusion.  I did break down and paint the cab roof and cistern deck my preferred shade of red (Testors Model Master Acrylic Rust),
but that was about it.  I so rarely have quick projects....

Doug
 
 

P Grace wrote:

Having looked at a picture of No 9360 at Cincinnati in 1936 in the book America's Workhorse Locomotive the 2-8-2. The changes to make the Genesis 2-8-2 to the same condition appear to be: 1. New marker lights on the tender deck and the on top of the buffer beam.2. A backup light on the tender3. The semi-circular projections on the bottom of the tender are not visible.4. Change the B&O headlight to a PRR example5. Move the steam generator to infront of the smoke stack6. Move the whistle to the other side of the dome7. Fit a smaller smoke box door and move the handrail below up.8. Remove the steam line While this might be worth doing as I had to pay the equivalent of US$160 for the engine and it looks fine as it is I won't bother.. Patrick Grace  
--Boundary_(ID_60YdPp+r76ilb5hSo8E/1A)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:02:54 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tenders - G5s Hello list, Check out pages 118 and 119 of the MR Cyclopedia, volume I for HO scale G5s plans. I used them when I modelled the 5741 (except for the tender; I compromised and used Bowser's high sided tender, which I know is wrong, but in 1994 it was the closest thing available. Now, I'd probably kitbash MDC's PRR tender with higher slope sheets and a taller coal space. Doug SNY114@aol.com wrote: > Hi all. > While it's not currently in production, back in the 70's there was briefly a > plastic boiler and tender version of the G5s, released I believe by Life-Like > (imported from Austria I believe). I bought one then, which I still have. > They couldn't pull much despite the traction tire on one driver, but it was > cheap and I was in college, thrilled to get a reasonably close PRR steamer > that I could superdetail easily because of the plastic construction. > Obviously, it's still with me for sentimental reasons. I bought two more at a > Greenburg Show in Philadelphia (Valley Forge, actually) about 2 years ago, > for about the same amount that I paid for the one in the 70's. I saw 2 of > them for sale on e-bay a few months back. > Sorry, I digress; on to the tender. I always thought that the tender looked > pretty good compared to pictures of 70P82's in Pennsy Power 1,2,3 and the G5s > article in Trains magazine back in the 70's. I'm gonna dig those tenders out > and take my scale rule to them and report back, unless someone else has > already done so and can weigh in with a judgement before then. > Well, soon as I find some reliable measurements for the 70P82. I just checked > the diagrams at Rob Schoenberg's site; there's no 70P82 diagram. Nor is there > a G5s diagram. I think I have something somewhere; can anyone help with > hints? Thanks. > > Jim Anderson > PRRT&HS 3995 > Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:06:39 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wallis [mailto:rwallis1@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 4:17 AM To: lew matt Cc: PRR talk; Alan Buchan Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. It is understandable if one was brought up in Lines West territory to have heard the PRR referred to as the P. Co. If people respond to your request regarding where they learned the term P. Co. the results might prove interesting. I kind of believe it is just a lack of knowledge that many people in the modern times use the term P. Co. when they are referring to the post 1920 PRR - especially the territory east of Pittsburgh and Erie. I also believe that most of the current usage is from either reading its erroneous use in a secondary source books or hearing other people using the term. And as far as hearing other people using the term, they might be using it correctly but the person hearing it interprets its usage incorrectly or perhaps the other person is using the term incorrectly to begin with. As I told Lew in an off line e-mail: "I worked for the PRR and never remember hearing P. Co. being used at all. We always referred to it as the Pennsylvania Company when we needed to talk about it, which wasn't much. I didn't hear the term until I started associating with non-employe PRR rail fans." I worked both former Lines West territory (Lake Division and Fort Wayne Division), former Lines East (Philadelphia Division) and System Office (Ops Plng, LR&P, Op Rules). Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: P Company Moniker Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:57:37 -0000 Subject: "P Company" Moniker From: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:45:37 EST Barry, et. al., The point was that the use of term P. Co. to properties that never were part of the P. Co. to begin with is incorrect. As far as I'm concerned the use of P. Co. to refer to the former PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh and Erie is just fine. All of the examples you gave were fine as that is what those properties were once identified as. When I worked at Canton, OH on the PFW&C (PRR) in the 60's we sometimes referred to it as the Fort Wayne. The former E&P Branch (PRR) connection to the B&LE at Shenango, PA, currently part of NS, is officially referred to as P. Co No. 2, which is fine as the E&P was under the P. Co. during the Lines West period. However, the PRR east of Pittsburgh and Erie was NEVER under the control of the P. Co. and, therefore, it should, in my opinion, not be referred to as the P. Co. Perhaps this is too subtle a point for some people. However, I believe it fly's in the face of Jerry's previous post regarding Quality vs. Quantity. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: P Company Moniker Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:25:36 -0500 I first saw the term "P-Co." used in Staufer's "Pennsy Power II" back in '68 and thought it sounded good. What the hell, I was just a kid. Never thought it would offend someone. Ah, the innocence of youth. But I do see why people might object to it. We are, after all, dedicated to the pursuit of authenticity in preserving the PRR's legacy. But as far as I'm concerned, if anyone wants to use "P-Co." when referring to the Greatest Railroad Ever Built, it's OK by me, because it's coming from another follower of the Keystone Order (Don Wood coined that, and I love it too). Rick S.(PF) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:34:53 -0500 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] Reply to David Hutchinson's Ocean City Western inquiry Subject: Maryland/ Berlin to Ocean City From: "David Hutchinson" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:47:51 -0500 I am looking for information on the PRR/PC branch from Berlin to Ocean City. I know that the Ocean City Western operated this stretch for a short time during the 1970's. I would like to know when the track was torn up and if there are any "signs" of the branch still there (bridges, roadbed, etc.). I would also like to know what type of motive power was used there from 1952 to the end of PC operations and what type of freight was handled during that period. David Hutchinson Thanks David. You have given me a chance to contribute to the list. Here is what John C. Hayman had to say about the Ocean City Western on pages 168-169 in his 1979 book Rails Along the Chesapeake (out of print): “The Penn Central had also filed for abandonment of the Berlin to West Ocean City spur, but withdrew its petition when the Historic Railroads, Inc. of Severna Park, Maryland negotiated for the sale of the line. This company purchased the former B & E (Baltimore and Eastern) spur in 1974 and is operating it as the Ocean City Western Railroad. Freight traffic on the West Ocean City spur had dropped from 520 cars two years before the purchase to five the year before. The firm which had received almost all of the cars had been forced to switch to trucks during the Summit Bridge outage in 1973 (see footnote) and found it more convenient for the shipment of its slag and limestone. The Ocean City Western, a common carrier, hoped to rekindle freight traffic, as well as to operate a steam-powered excursion during the summer. To that end, a locomotive was purchased from an Alabama short line, the Mobile and Gulf railroad, where she was the very last steam locomotive in regular service on a freight only common carrier railroad in the United States. A 1925 Baldwin Product, No. 97 was a 2-6-0 built for service in Cuba, but was never delivered. She was listed as surplus at the Baldwin Works until purchased by the Army in 1932. The engine saw duty at several locations until 1948, when she was sold to the Mobile and Gulf, becoming that road’s No. 97. A diesel was also bought from the Maryland Port Administration, General Motors class SW-1 No. 114. Two former commuter cars were obtained from the Central Railroad of New Jersey and refurbished to complete the roster. During its second year of operation in 1975, the steam engine was laid up due to mechanical problems. Although No. 114 finished out the 1975 season, passenger service then ceased. Only recently has minimal freight business re-emerged.” Footnote: The Summit Bridge crosses the Chesapeake and Delaware canal west of St George’s. It was hit by a runaway barge in 1973 forcing its closure for a year at least, as I recall, until it was repaired. This severed the northern link of the Delmarva rail network leaving the car floats at Cape Charles, VA as the only rail connection to the peninsula. There is a photo of the SW-1 on pg 171 of the book with the caption, “Ocean City Western No. 97 has been sold and left the property on December 27, 1978, leaving No. 114 as the only engine on the roster. The tracks from Berlin to West Ocean City are no longer passable, as several of the road crossings have been paved over. No. 114 is fired up only once or twice a month to switch a car over from the Conrail interchange to an industry in Berlin.” This is the only reference he makes to the OCW. Hope this helps. Mike Morrow Magnolia, DE ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:10:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. In a message dated 00-01-12 23:33:50 EST, rwallis1@earthlink.net writes: << So, how many Lines East people are used to the term? >> Having "grown up under the catenary", I guess I'm a Lines Easter. First I ever heard "P Co." mentioned was in Pennypacker's first "Pennsy Power" volume. In 23 years of working at 30th Street I have never heard it used in casual conversation (Admittedly, few PRR men remain nowadays, but there were plenty when I started!) I don't recall seeing it in PRRT&HS pubs very often, or hearing it at railfan group meetings. I always thought it was kind of a Lines West thing. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR vs. P. Co. Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:10:27 -0700 Jeff, If I recall correctly there was a PRR/C&O joint operation called the Union Belt which had their yard down by John R and Joy Road (if I recall correctly...it's been well over 30 years). The NKP (later the N&W) also was a partner, but I never saw any of their units there. Can you tell me what (if anything) is left of this operation...it was my only exposure to railroading as a kid. Sincerely, Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Knorek To: Richard Wallis Cc: lew matt ; PRR talk Date: Thursday, January 13, 2000 10:27 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR vs. P. Co. >Greetings to all- >Here in Detroit, PRR came into town as the Toledo Branch. A railroad map (that has >no date or publisher on it) refers to this line and other PRR properties as the >Pennsylvania Detroit RR. >Pere Marquette peoperties are refered to as C&O, so this suggests that it was >published after 1947. > >PRR used trackage rights over Wabash and C&O from its own Lincoln Yard in Lincoln >Park to access its various branches around town. One of these branches was called >the West Belt, which forked off of the C&O Detroit Division about 2 miles west of >C&O Rougemere Yard. > >Pere Marquette called this location West Belt Junction. > >Chessie System also called this location West Belt Junction. > >***CSX calls it P Company Junction.*** > > >Bibliography: >C&OHS, The Pere Marquette in 1945 (1981). >Chessie System Detroit Division ETT, Page 43 (197?). >CSXT Detroit Service Lane ETT #2, Page 7 (1999). > > >Regards- >Jeff Knorek >jknorek@msen.com > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:26:09 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Review of Bachmann Plus F7, and pictures of new Accumate Hello list, I finally had a chance to check the Model Train Magazine index (accessible through Accurail's web site, about which more later). Model Railroader reviewed the Bachmann Plus F7 engines in the July 1993 issue, starting on page 39. Also, Accurail has posted nice photos (clearer than the one in the February MR) of their new coupler. I'm excited, as I have several K4s engines that can benefit from scale sized front couplers (not to mention the rear couplers); hopefully, I won't be struggling with Kadee's 711 couplers anymore; they're hard for me to mount. I'm used to big giant 2-56 screws, or at the least, 0-80 screws; I don't like to secure couplers with goo. I hope they will follow up and produce offset shank versions of their new coupler, though that might be difficult with the split shank design. Of course, now that my fleet of about 200 cars and that of my grandfather (also about 200 cars) is completely Kadee equipped, something potentially better comes along. We shall see! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:51:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2-8-8-2 Tender Sill Gary and All, Why cater to only the Pennsy modelers and why do it half baked. Do what is needed and produce the correct tender in resin! This is just another resin candidate. Greg Martin Gary Mittner@webtv.net writes: << Hey Pat from Miracle Castings, are you there? Is it possible for you to design and manufacture a small production run of suitable resin fish belly sills for us Pennsy nuts here on PRR-Talk? Just a thought! I know it won't magically change the 16,000 gal tender into a 18,000 gallon tender but at least the correct looks will be there... Gary>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JWTrains@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:23:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Tender on LL HH-1 I hate to brake all your hearts about the tender on the LL HH-1 2-8-8-2, but it is the wrong size for the Y3's that the PRR obtain from the N&W. The tender supplied with the model is a 16,000 gal. tender. The correct size should be a 18,000 gal. fish belly underframe. The length is at least 3 or more feet longer than the 16,000 gal. tender. It would be totally incorrect to change the underframe on the 16,000 gal. tender because they were not built with a fish belly underframe. In other words the tender is correct, but not for the HH-1. The N&W converted many of the 15,000 gal. as well as the 16,000 gal. tender to auxillary tenders. Someone at the N&WHS screwed up. Only one HH-1 had the bridgepipe front low pressure cylinders (#373 ex N&W #2000) which were hand me downs from the Y5's. Nineteen Y5's were upgraded to Y6 specifications by recieving new cast steel engine frames with integral cylinders. The original fabricated bar frames of the Y5's, with the bridgepipe cylinders, were then down graded and used on the Y4's and Y3's. Jim Williams ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 02:14:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: P Company Moniker Al In my opinion all you are achieving is dividing the folks with statements like this. Personally I am more interested in what has been called the P. Co. then Lines East, but I don't try to make the ever apparent "line in the sand" any more noticeable than it is. I first ran across the use of P. Com from Al Staufer Pennsy Power 2. Why make an issue of the use of the name P. Co., I say call it what you want as long as you don't forget to call it to beans! Greg Martin << However, the PRR east of Pittsburgh and Erie was NEVER under the control of the P. Co. and, therefore, it should, in my opinion, not be referred to as the P. Co. Perhaps this is too subtle a point for some people. However, I believe it fly's in the face of Jerry's previous post regarding Quality vs. Quantity. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:18:57 -0800 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] MP-54 power gathering Hi, Were pantographs the only power gathering method used on PRR MP-54's or were sliders for 3rd rail pickup used in some locations? Thanks! Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 714-278-2669 Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (Fax) P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:47:37 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2-8-8-2 Tender Sill There has been a fair amount of discussion on the N&W lists about this issue: the 18,000 gal fish belly tender being more common on N&W Y's. There would be a market beyond the PRR crowd. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 07:52:49 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR 2-8-8-2 Gary said: > Getting back to the models. It appears either 2011 or the 2019 is >good for a PRR HH-1. It appears that #2011 is only good for PRR #373 and >2019 is good for the other 5, PRR #'s 374 375 376 377 and 378. > The details that I plan on changing to convert this into the PRR >HH-1 are as follows. 1. Add the Keystone Number Plate. 2. Change the >Loco Class lights to PRR style and add the PRR tender markers. 3. Remove >the lettering/paint and decal witth the appropriate PENNSYLVANIA >lettering. 4. Remove cast on builder plates and add one of those etched >brass PRR types that are available from Schukyll Division. 5. Tender >sill? 6. If I use the loco with tube pilot N&W 2011, I will add the >steel plate as pictuered on page 26 of PP1 as seen on PRR #373. then Jim said: >I hate to brake all your hearts about the tender on the LL HH-1 2-8-8-2, but >it is the wrong size for the Y3's that the PRR obtain from the N&W. >The length is at least 3 or more feet longer than the 16,000 gal. tender. >The N&W converted many of the 15,000 gal. as well as the >16,000 gal. tender to auxillary tenders. Someone at the N&WHS screwed up. Well, first of WOW is it a nice model!. Also nobody "screwed up"...many Y-3s had the 16,000 gallon tender, including those sold to Santa Fe, and N&W #2011 and 2019. BTW, someone asked about using the Y-6 tender...nope! That's an even bigger tender adn has a totally different look. That was actually the biggest impediment to bashing the Y-6 into an HH-1 (and the different cab styles). As for what to do for an HH-1...either buy the undec or WAIT!!!!! I got my undec Y-3 last night. The undec version comes with both the original and Y tube front cylinders, both types of pilots, a tender doghouse and a KEYSTONE number board as spare parts. LifeLike WILL be releasing a PRR and a Union Pacific version (both had the 18,000 gal tender). They even have a statement in the back of the book that comes with the model about donating to the Historical society of the road depicted, then list the roads to be released and PRRT&HS is listed! For those of us who have the 16,000 gallon tender, I'd suggest waiting to see if the 18,000 gallon tender is accurately modeled for the PRR/UP releases. If so, you can always order the tender shell, and frame as "replacement parts". That's my plan, and I'm sticking to it ! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:09:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender on LL HH-1 Jim, We know the tender is the wrong version. We are just trying to come up with a suitable disguise to make the 16,000 gal. appear to be an 18,000 gal tender without magor surgery. In my opinion if you look at all the resin casted items on the market now days, there is no way a cast resin replacement tender could ever achieve the fine detail needed to match the fine detail of the Y-3 loco. Any cast resin tender may work for a Bowser but not for a LifeLike. LifeLike would be smart to produce the more common tender themselves using the their plastics technology.....Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:04:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender on LL HH-1 We are just trying to come up with a suitable disguise to make the 16,000 gal. appear to be an 18,000 gal tender without magor surgery. Is it possible to splice in the additional three feet or is that considered major surgery? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Lohmeyer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Maryland/ Berlin to Ocean City Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:10:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5E7F.F4A3DB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave and all, In the 1945 edition of CT1000e (available for download at the = Keystone Crossings site) they list stops from Berlin eastward. Berlin Station Horace Davis(individual use) Davis Coal Siding(individual use) Derricksons Holly Grove Sinepuxent Marsh Siding As Mike Morrow pointed out the book Trails along the Chesapeake states = that there was a customer on the line in the early 70's receiving 500+ = cars a year of slag and limestone. A brief history of the line if you are interested(from the above = book). The Berlin to OC tracks were completed in 1876 by the Wicomico & = Pocomoke RR (W & P). The line was purchased in 1888 by the Baltimore & Eastern Shore RR (B & = E S) which established a route in 1890 from Baltimore to Annapolis to = Bay Ridge via steamer to Claiborne to Salisbury to Ocean City. The trip = would take just 5 hours. (sometimes on summer holiday weekends it can = take that long by car today) The B & E S was sold at auction in 1894 and became the Baltimore, = Chesapeake and Atlantic Railway (B C & A) The B C & A was sold in 1928 to become the Baltimore & Eastern RR (B & = E) with the PRR having controlling interest In August of 1933 the trestle into OC was washed out in a storm. Sometime after 1937 PPR crews began servicing the Berlin to west OC = section. In 1974 the spur was purchased by the Ocean City Western RR and operated = a passenger excursion for a few years. The book states that as of 1978 the Berlin to west OC tracks are not = passable due to several road crossings being paved over.=20 Keith Lohmeyer =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Hutchinson=20 To: 'PRR-Talk@dsop.com'=20 Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 9:47 AM Subject: [PRR] Maryland/ Berlin to Ocean City I am looking for information on the PRR/PC branch from Berlin to Ocean City. I know that the Ocean City Western operated this stretch for a short time during the 1970's. I would like to know when the track was torn up and if there are any "signs" of the branch still there = (bridges, roadbed, etc.). I would also like to know what type of motive power = was used there from 1952 to the end of PC operations and what type of freight was handled during that period. David Hutchinson = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to=20 "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact = "listmaster@dsop.com". ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5E7F.F4A3DB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave and all,
    In the 1945 edition of CT1000e = (available=20 for download at the Keystone Crossings site) they list stops from=20 Berlin eastward.
        Berlin=20 Station
       Horace=20 Davis(individual use)
        Davis = Coal=20 Siding(individual use)
       = Derricksons
       Holly = Grove
       = Sinepuxent
        Marsh=20 Siding
As Mike Morrow pointed out the book Trails along the = Chesapeake states that there was a customer on the line in the early = 70's=20 receiving 500+ cars a year of slag and limestone.
    A brief history of the line if = you are=20 interested(from the above book).
The Berlin to OC tracks were completed in 1876 by = the Wicomico=20 & Pocomoke RR (W & P).
The line was purchased in 1888 by the Baltimore = & Eastern=20 Shore RR (B & E S) which established a route in 1890 from Baltimore = to=20 Annapolis to Bay Ridge via steamer to Claiborne to Salisbury to Ocean = City. The=20 trip would take just 5 hours. (sometimes on summer holiday weekends = it can=20 take that long by car today)
The B & E S was sold at auction in 1894 and = became the=20 Baltimore, Chesapeake and Atlantic Railway (B C & A)
The B C & A was sold in 1928 to become the = Baltimore &=20 Eastern RR (B & E) with the PRR having controlling = interest
In August of 1933 the trestle into OC was washed out = in a=20 storm.
Sometime after 1937 PPR crews began servicing the = Berlin to=20 west OC section.
In 1974 the spur was purchased by the Ocean = City Western=20 RR and operated a passenger excursion for a few years.
The book states that as of 1978 the Berlin to west = OC tracks=20 are not passable due to several road crossings being paved=20 over. 
 
Keith Lohmeyer   
   
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Hutchinson
Sent: Thursday, January 13, = 2000 9:47=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Maryland/ Berlin = to Ocean=20 City

I am looking for information on the PRR/PC branch from = Berlin=20 to Ocean
City.  I know that the Ocean City Western operated = this=20 stretch for a
short time during the 1970's.  I would like to = know when=20 the track was
torn up and if there are any "signs" of the branch = still=20 there (bridges,
roadbed, etc.).  I would also like to know = what type=20 of motive power was
used there from 1952 to the end of PC = operations and=20 what type of
freight was handled during that period.

David=20 = Hutchinson

-------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
Join=20 our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.c= om/forms/spf/index.html.
-----------------------------------------= ------------------------------
For=20 assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to =
"listserv@dsop.com". If problems = persist,=20 contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5E7F.F4A3DB60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:31:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR 2-8-8-2    Any splice job I consider "major" surgery. Especially when your working in rivit areas. That is a job for a nuerosurgen. . Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vastano,Sam" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3???? Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:08:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF5E88.17CC6E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any body know if there was a Pennsy Power 3?? and if so is it still in = print and where do I get one? Thanks Sam Vastano ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF5E88.17CC6E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Any body know if there was a Pennsy = Power 3??=20 and if so is it still in print and where do I get one?
 
Thanks
 
Sam Vastano
 
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF5E88.17CC6E60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:15:20 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Maryland/ Berlin to Ocean City Just a minor "addition" and off the main subject--the storm in 1933 was "the Great August Hurricaine" that wiped out much of the east coast seaboard from Cape Hatteras to New England. Old timers here in Delmarva still speak with reverence of the event--probably the second worst hurricaine this century. The South inlet at Ocean City was opened across the island from ocean to inlet in about 2 hours--I assume that is where the trestle used to be. Tides were 10-12 feet above normal with 50+ foot waves documented breaking over the Chesapeake lightship's masts and dragging the ship miles off station. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:34:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3???? In a message dated 01/14/2000 11:51:03 AM Central Standard Time, svastano@ccia.com writes: << Any body know if there was a Pennsy Power 3?? and if so is it still in print and where do I get one? >> 1. Yes. 2. Don't Know. 3. Amazon and Barnes and Noble don't have. Try www.librisbooksearch.com. It may be out of print. It is also available at some swap meets or you might find listed in one of those telephone directory type ads in Trains, et al. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:32:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3???? Sam & List I know there was one, I'm not sure as to whether its still in print. AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3???? Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:43:02 -0500 Sam: "Pennsy Power 3" came out about 3-4 years ago by Al Stauffer. It is a good book and compliments Al's first two books. I think that it retailed for $75.00 and should be still available. Check the hobby stores that sell books (i.e. Caboose hobbies in Denver) and if that fails, I think that you can order directly from Al Stauffer. I think that he still advertises in MR or Trains Magazines. I hope that this helps you. I recommend the book; there are many photos in it that have never been published before. It also has the usual commentaries from Al which any of his books would not be the same without them! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Vastano,Sam [mailto:svastano@ccia.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:09 PM To: PRR-TALK Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3???? Any body know if there was a Pennsy Power 3?? and if so is it still in print and where do I get one? Thanks Sam Vastano ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 power gathering Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:16:34 -0500 If you mean PRR proper, the MP54's used pantograph only. If you include PRSL & LIRR, it's another story. PRSL's used third rail and trolley pole and LIRR's were strictly third rail. The PRR of course used AC overhead, the PRSL & LIRR use(d) DC. Hope this helps! Rick S.(PF) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "velure" Subject: [PRR] mapquest Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:23:31 -0500 anyone notice that mapquest.com has former RoW's on their maps. anyone know where they get there info? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:43:06 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] mapquest > anyone notice that mapquest.com has former RoW's on their maps. anyone know > where they get there info? Many USGS maps show former rail rights of way; It's quite possible that the Census vector data does as well. In any case they probably get it from the USGS (like many other map products do) Interestingly one USGS map in the area which was updated in the 90s had an abandoned PRR branch removed even though the 2 adjoining maps (this was near a corner) still show it. It ran from a connection of the Herminie to Cowansburg (I think) portion of (which I recall was) the Sewickley Creek branch over to or toward Hunker, and for some reason they revised it away even though an adjacent quad which was photorevised not much earlier had the line photorevised to abandoned... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:09:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FF2's In a message dated 1/13/2000 10:49:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: > Can anybody give me some technical reasons why the FF2's needed both > pantographs to operate? I know that every description say's, " Because they > are motor generators they need both pantographs up to operate". Why? Thanks > > for any input on this. There were TWO motor-generator sets in each FF2, each connected to one pantograph. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Review of Bachmann Plus F7, and pictures of new Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:37:59 -0500 Doug: Don't be too quick to discard the KDs. Every coupler I have tested against them has come up wanting in some area. Let me know how this one stacks up, so I don't throw away some money buying a bummer to test. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2000 11:23 PM Subject: [PRR] Review of Bachmann Plus F7, and pictures of new Accumatescale couplers >Hello list, > >I finally had a chance to check the Model Train Magazine index >(accessible through Accurail's web site, about which more later). Model >Railroader reviewed the Bachmann Plus F7 engines in the July 1993 issue, >starting on page 39. > >Also, Accurail has posted nice photos (clearer than the one in the >February MR) of their new coupler. I'm excited, as I have several K4s >engines that can benefit from scale sized front couplers (not to mention >the rear couplers); hopefully, I won't be struggling with Kadee's 711 >couplers anymore; they're hard for me to mount. I'm used to big giant >2-56 screws, or at the least, 0-80 screws; I don't like to secure >couplers with goo. > >I hope they will follow up and produce offset shank versions of their >new coupler, though that might be difficult with the split shank design. > >Of course, now that my fleet of about 200 cars and that of my >grandfather (also about 200 cars) is completely Kadee equipped, >something potentially better comes along. We shall see! > >Doug > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2-8-8-2 Tender Sill Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:39:07 -0500 does anyone have scale drawings of the HH-1 tender? Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: mittner@webtv.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, January 13, 2000 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2-8-8-2 Tender Sill >Gary and All, > Why cater to only the Pennsy modelers and why do it half baked. Do what is >needed and produce the correct tender in resin! This is just another resin >candidate. > >Greg Martin > >Gary Mittner@webtv.net writes: > ><< Hey Pat from Miracle Castings, are you there? Is it possible for you to >design and manufacture a small production run of suitable resin fish belly >sills for us Pennsy nuts here on PRR-Talk? Just a thought! I know it won't >magically change the 16,000 gal tender into a 18,000 gallon tender but at >least the correct looks will be there... Gary>> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:15:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3???? Just talked to Al Stauffer, by phone - He is sold out of PP-3, though some may be availible in Hobby Shops or book retailers It took a little less than 2 years to sell out the original press run of 5,000. It is his intent to have the book re-run this year, with the goal of having it in the stores by Sept or October of 2000 Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] Heimberger House Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:57:43 -0500 Anyone have the telephone number of the Heimberger House S scale products or Heimberger House Publishing? Address will do if that's all you got. Thanks, Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:14:52 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR SW-1s The Buckeye Central Scenic Railroad has former PRR SW-1 8599 on its roster. It is claimed to be the last of 200 SW-1s that the Pennsy purchased around 1948. The unit is alive and well working every year powering passenger trains on this central Ohio tourist railroad. Can anyone supply some inormation about this unit, its built date, builders number, where based out of, and any other interesting information. Especially looking for photos of it in operation on the PRR. Thanks. RIck Rowlands ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:32:42 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Power #3 There was a PRR Power #3 first printing in 1993. ISBN # 0-944513-10-7 Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:54:04 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3 Folks, I don't have a copy of this book, but have looked it over fondly. Aside from motive power, the book also covers rolling stock (nice B60 photos, etc) and the floating motive power. I've seen it available from Cajon Rails booksellers at about 20% off list and other sellers as well. I still intend on getting a copy. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:19:26 -0800 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: [PRR] Looking for Charlie Houser My apologies to anyone getting multiple posts of this. I'm looking for a good address and most of all a phone number for Charlie Houser--The Houser Collection--of railroad photos and slides. The last I had was from about four to five years ago: Charles W. Houser, Jr. ph: (215) 837-6176 5548 louise Lane Northampton, PA 18067-9072 I just tried calling and redialing just to be sure I got the correct number and got a canned message both times about the cellular customer not being available (????) This was once a good number and surely not cellular (then). Can anybody help, please? TIA, Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:22:56 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: [PRR] PRR# For PC SW1 9408? Dear List, I'm a member of The Railway Exposition Company, Inc, in Latonia, Kentucky and we have a PRR SW1. We know its number under Penn Central, 9408, but not its PRR number. Does anyone know the number or can point me where I can find it? Thanks! Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "cos" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR# For PC SW1 9408? Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:54:07 -0500 Howdy Patrick, I checked my reference book for early PC power (Penn Central Bi-Annual) and it listed the 9408 as an Alco S1/S3 of NYC heritage #954. SW1s where in the 8400 to 8599 number series. PC number 8408 was an ex NYC unit also # 582 built 12/42. Cos > I'm a member of The Railway Exposition Company, Inc, in > Latonia, Kentucky and we have a PRR SW1. We know its number under Penn > Central, 9408, but not its PRR number. Does anyone know the number or > can point me where I can find it? > > Thanks! > > Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: P Company Moniker Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:57:53 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 7:14 AM To: abbuchan@familyconnect.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: P Company Moniker Greg, When I make a mistake in using a phrase or word I appreciate it when people take the time to correct me. I feel the same way about correcting other's mistakes. As a former PRR employe and historian I try to use terms correctly and believe that other people who are using terminology incorrectly should at least be informed of that. However, if they wish to ignore the facts after being so advised that's their choice. Everybody makes mistakes, I've always said - show me someone who doesn't make mistakes and I'll show you someone who is doing nothing. You just don't want to make the same mistake twice. Some of us like to strive for perfection (not always reaching it however) in our terminology and language. Like you do so well in your PRR modeling. Sort of like your comments re: PRR 2-8-8-2 tender sill "....why do it half baked. Do what is needed and produce the correct..." Regarding Staufer's use in PPII - yes I know its right in the beginning of the book (pg. 13 - unnumbered) - "The P. Co. is no more." His use there, and I have seen it in the PDYs also, is, quite frankly dead wrong. As he was using it as what I refer to as, a cutesy term for the PRR. Just because Staufer, Pennypacker, Yanosey and others have used it doesn't make it right. Greg, I know as well as you, people have chosen to ignore facts since the beginning of time, "Don't confuse me with the facts - my minds made up." And I know I am not going to change that attitude. However, some who realize they are wrong may see the light. I feel, let the record show what is right and then let the people do what they want, I for one will never support the establishment of the P. Co. police! Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "cos" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SW-1s Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:58:20 -0500 Howdy Rick: 8599 was the PC number, it was the PRR 5999. Builders number 5676, built April 1948. Cos > The Buckeye Central Scenic Railroad has former PRR SW-1 8599 on its roster. > It is claimed to be the last of 200 SW-1s that the Pennsy purchased around > 1948. The unit is alive and well working every year powering passenger > trains on this central Ohio tourist railroad. > > Can anyone supply some inormation about this unit, its built date, builders > number, where based out of, and any other interesting information. > Especially looking for photos of it in operation on the PRR. > > Thanks. > > RIck Rowlands ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:10:08 -0500 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3 I have this book, and while it is much more comprehensive than PP-I and PP-II, I feel that the text that supports the photographs is not as extensive as the earlier versions. The photos are 'great', the text is 'OK'. If I remember correctly, PP-I and -II had text by Bert Pennypacker, while III had text written by someone else. Just my opinion. It's still a "must" for the serious PRR fan's bookshelf, however. Dale BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > I don't have a copy of this book, but have looked it over fondly. Aside from > motive power, the book also covers rolling stock (nice B60 photos, etc) and > the floating motive power. > I've seen it available from Cajon Rails booksellers at about 20% off list and > other sellers as well. I still intend on getting a copy. > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:18:21 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: P Company Moniker On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Alan Buchan wrote: > Regarding Staufer's use in PPII - yes I know its right in the beginning of > the book (pg. 13 - unnumbered) - "The P. Co. is no more." His use there, > and I have seen it in the PDYs also, is, quite frankly dead wrong. As he was > using it as what I refer to as, a cutesy term for the PRR. Did you mean this to be one sentence? What you have is a sentence fragment (starting with As...) and a sentence (His use there....). I don't believe the P. Co. still exists, but by the Penn Central days the P. Co. was a holding company. "The Wreck of the Penn Central" by Daughen and Binzen includes it in the organizational chart. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:08:27 EST Subject: [PRR] Railroad Conductor Positions Railroad Conductor Postions- 60 positions to fill in Columbus, OH in 2000. Excellent career Opportunities for Men and Women Are you looking for a career with great pay and benefits? (starting salary approximately $30,000) Do you like working outdoors? If you can answer yes to both questions, you may want to consider a career as a railroad freight conductor. Owens Community College's Five Week Conductor Training Program. Guaranteed interview with CSX Transportation. 97% graduate placement. Possible tuition assistance from Credit Union loans, Plato Student Loans, JTPA. Call toll free 1-800-466-9367, ext. 7357. CSX is hiring in other locations as well. Good Luck! Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:12:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Plans / Dimensions / Photos of Ohio River Bridge at Folks, Does anyone have the dimensions of the PRR Ohio River bridge at Weirton, WV? Any drawings or on-line photos would be appreciated. Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:27:38 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power III Hello list, If you're searching for a copy of Pennsy Power III, you might check with Raritan Bay Hobbies. Their address is Raritan Bay Hobbies PO Box 4231 Metuchen, NJ 08840-4231 phone 732 494 2932 fax 732 548 0193 www.raritanbayhobbies.com Their service is phenomenal; they were very helpful when my first copy of Pennsy Steam Years II arrived with damaged and missing pages and I got a perfect replacement quickly. I have been ordering from them for about six years now, and I'm very pleased with them. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:45:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR# For PC SW1 9408? Pat and all, I'm not sure where you got your information but if you have a locomotive that was a former PC # 9408, you don't have an EMD SW-1, what you have is an ALCo S-1 former NYC 954. Check the information again and verify. The 9408 was NYC 954 built 5/41 as builders #69463. Greg Martin << Dear List, I'm a member of The Railway Exposition Company, Inc, in Latonia, Kentucky and we have a PRR SW1. We know its number under Penn Central, 9408, but not its PRR number. Does anyone know the number or can point me where I can find it? Thanks! >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:04:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SW-1s Rick, If you have and ex PRR SW1 8599 in your fleet you have a rare find as that number was assigned to a PRR Class AS-16m or ALCo RS-3 built 12/55 as builders #81800. Likely what you have a Penn Central SW1 #8599 or nee PRR #5999 built 4/48 as builders #5676. Verify the numbers. As Penn Central it had a maintenance base of Conway, PA (of 6/73). Pennsy only rostered 82 I-1's. Greg Martin << The Buckeye Central Scenic Railroad has former PRR SW-1 8599 on its roster. It is claimed to be the last of 200 SW-1s that the Pennsy purchased around 1948. The unit is alive and well working every year powering passenger trains on this central Ohio tourist railroad. Can anyone supply some inormation about this unit, its built date, builders number, where based out of, and any other interesting information. Especially looking for photos of it in operation on the PRR. Thanks. RIck Rowlands >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:07:43 EST Subject: [PRR] PENNSY POWER # 3 Just talked to Al Stauffer, by phone - He is sold out of PP-3, though some may be available in Hobby Shops or book retailers It took a little less than 2 years to sell out the original press run of 5,000. It is his intent to have the book rerun THis year, with the goal of having it in the stores by Sept or October of 2000 Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:11:54 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR# For PC SW1 9408? TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Pat and all, > > I'm not sure where you got your information but if you have a locomotive that > was a former PC # 9408, you don't have an EMD SW-1, what you have is an ALCo > S-1 former NYC 954. Check the information again and verify. The 9408 was > NYC 954 built 5/41 as builders #69463. This is the info I was told when I joined back in November. I can double check with the person in charge of operations. It definitely is an EMD product. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:17:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR 2-8-8-2 List, I did a little more research/photo hunting this morning of the PRR HH-1. I see that the Pennsy added a backup light on the tender deck. A common practice on freight locos. My question is why did they add this on this tender? The N&W already had a built in backup light in the rear of the tender. Does anyone have a photo of the rear of a PRR HH-1 to see if this backup light was removed or left in place?...Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:17:06 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: [PRR] [PRR]E8A 5888 Hello List, I asked this about a month and a half ago but realized I did not post properly so here is the question again: I am looking for pictures of PRR E8A 5888. It also is the property of Railway Exposition in Kentucky (we also have a few pieces of PRR rolling stock including a theatre set car). It seems 5888 has been camera shy during her lifetime and we would like pointers to pictures of her. Thanks! Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:29:11 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: FF2's Derrick is correct in that _any_ large motor will draw excess current with possible damage ensuing if the supply current is interrupted, then restored with the motor rotor out of step with its proper electrical position lagging the rotating magnetic field in the stator. I have read that the FF-2's, like some other elec locos, had synchronous motors driving generators to provide DC for the traction motors. These would have a definite nmeed to remain completely in step with the supply current. Interrupting and then restoring the supply to a synchronous motor suddenly can be catastrophic. While an automatic safety dropout could be provided, the restart paeriod would be possibly 10 to 15 seconds, resulting in severe loss of tractive effort with attendant slack and draft gear problems. The use of two pans provided greater reliability of current supply, as the likelihood of both losing wire contact simultaneously was less than that of just one pan losing contact. Steve Bartlett Subject: FF2's From: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:42:26 EST Can anybody give me some technical reasons why the FF2's needed both pantographs to operate? I know that every description say's, " Because they are motor generators they need both pantographs up to operate". Why? Thanks for any input on this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] FF2's From: "Derrick J Brashear" Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:51:57 -0500 (EST) On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: ........ Some EE can probably tell you better, but basically if one pan bounced off the wire and the motor got out of phase with the A/C when it hit the wire again you'd have a large spark, basically. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] kitbash B60 and B70 baggage cars Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:40:39 -0500 Dear List: I previously expressed that we should clear the air about details on models before they become magazine articles or are mass produced. In the spirit of producing the best compromise between scale fidelity and available materials, I ask for your assistance. I am currently preparing an article for publication on an easy kitbash of the early PRR B60 and B70 Baggage cars. I will be unable to make perfectly scaled and detailed cars from the materials at hand. The scope of the article is a beginners kitbash and will yield a car that looks good but won't pass close examination. I am using the paradigm " view at three feet while it is moving in a train" for the level of exactness. If this kitbash gets too complicated and too demanding of detail, beginners won't try it. With this caveat in mind, I need several things from this group: 1. PHOTOGRAPH(S), broadside B&W or color photo(s) of a B60 or B70 car showing sufficient detail to model. OR, any photo I can get. :-) NOTE: I have checked with PRR Museum at Strasburg, the State Archives and all the photo dealers that regularly attend the PRRT&HS meetings and they don't have what I need, so this will have to come from a private collection. 2. OPINION(S) on what detail is most important to see to visually clue one into thinking that this car is an early B60 or B70. Think in theatrical terms. I would like to do both versions of the B60 with and without the windows, but before modernization. 3. INFORMATION on the details of the history of the B60 and B70 cars. I don't know much about the earlier versions of these cars, particularly the dates built and numbering sequence and the renumbers as later rebuilt. Would anyone like to write the history of these cars to include with photos, alongside the kitbash article? 4. WHERE TO BUY the appropriate 4 wheel rivited frame, two axle trucks that go under the original B60. I believe they are 2PD1?? 5. A SOUND THRASHING for writing an article that is not perfectly to scale. :-) Thanks for your help, guys, Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 07:27:18 -0700 Howdy all, According to my copy the text was by Al Stauffer, William Edson and Tom Hartley. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: DDembinski To: BPX29@aol.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power 3 >I have this book, and while it is much more comprehensive than PP-I and PP-II, I feel that >the text that supports the photographs is not as extensive as the earlier versions. The >photos are 'great', the text is 'OK'. If I remember correctly, PP-I and -II had text by >Bert Pennypacker, while III had text written by someone else. > >Just my opinion. > >It's still a "must" for the serious PRR fan's bookshelf, however. > >Dale > >BPX29@aol.com wrote: > >> Folks, >> I don't have a copy of this book, but have looked it over fondly. Aside from >> motive power, the book also covers rolling stock (nice B60 photos, etc) and >> the floating motive power. >> I've seen it available from Cajon Rails booksellers at about 20% off list and >> other sellers as well. I still intend on getting a copy. >> Barry Peltier >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:08:38 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] I-1 tender trucks Hi All... Anyone know when the eight wheel trucks were first used under the I-1 engine tenders ? H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:17:28 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] kitbash B60 and B70 baggage cars Hi Lew, > I am currently preparing an article for publication on an easy kitbash of > the early PRR B60 and B70 Baggage cars. > 4. WHERE TO BUY the appropriate 4 wheel rivited frame, two axle trucks that > go under the original B60. I believe they are 2PD1?? When asking questions like this it would be helpful to state the scale you are working in. There is, after all, more than one you know! The book entitled "Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book" by NJ International is a good source of passenger car of info. It has plans & photos of both these car classes. I assume you have checked it already? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:49:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] kitbash B60 and B70 baggage cars In a message dated 1/15/2000 10:28:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, schlund@cwnet.com writes: <<> 4. WHERE TO BUY the appropriate 4 wheel rivited frame, two axle trucks that > go under the original B60. I believe they are 2PD1?? When asking questions like this it would be helpful to state the scale you are working in. There is, after all, more than one you know! >> Yeah, for all we know, this guy could actually be in something bizarre like HO or N ! Lee Rainey (PRR in S) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:30:06 -0500 From: demcneil Subject: [PRR] BM-60 Numbers Hello Group I recently bought a BM-60 baggage- mail car and am ready to decal it. I can't find a source for the proper car numbers. Can anybody provide some assistance? TIA, Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] I-1 tender trucks Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:35:29 -0800 Hank--According to The Keystone, June 1979, the 115 tenders of classes 210F75A and 210F75B were built (without engines) between 1938 and 1942. According to the article "nearly all" were used on M1 engines; a few appeared on M1b's. In the 50's "some" were converted to 210F82A and 210F82B for I1sa engines. These were the tenders with welded sides and eight wheel trucks. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:49:46 -0500 From: demcneil Subject: [PRR] BM-60 More info Roger, Thanks for the history on the cars. I did manage to find a drawing of the cars in Wayner's "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger And Freight Car Diagrams" of 1981 on page 3. The dimensions match those you cited, but the weight varied by 1100 lbs... Using that info I found 5 cars that matched in the 1953 "Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" as provided on one of the CD's sold by Merchandise Service. The numbers were 5416 to 5419 and 5439. I think that's probably good enough for me, however I'd still like to see a picture or lettering plan. Again, thanks this is what I think this list is all about. Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:48:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 power gathering From: Michael Allen Frank, et alia; Before the catenary was extended into NYP there were a small number of PRR MP-54s equipped for third rail and used for a Manhattan Transfer => Penn Station shuttle. All LIRR MP-54s were equipped for third rail and the later steel electric cars used on the WJ&S were also classed as MP-54s and used both third rail and trolley poles. MEA __________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen, Managing Partner meallen@juno.com W.R. ALLEN Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:18:57 -0800 Frank Bagrash writes: > Hi, > > Were pantographs the only power gathering method used on PRR MP-54's > or > were sliders for 3rd rail pickup used in some locations? Thanks! > > Frank > > -- > Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 714-278-2669 > Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (Fax) > P.O. Box 6846 > California State University > Fullerton, California 92834-6846 > E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu > Boogie gently, babies > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:49:25 -0500 Subject: Grading Papers was Re: [PRR] RE: P Company Moniker From: Michael Allen Alan, Derrick, et alia; Recognizing and correcting errors of fact is called "learning". These lists exist for the exchange of information and the enhancement knowledge, which is the primary reason that I am on this [and several other lists]. It is not a dig on the person whose data was not as complete or accurate to post some apparently better data. If one has [or believes one's self to have] better data than sharing it is appropriate, hence we may go back and forth for weeks on the diameter of a bolt used to secure a whatjamajigit to a thigamawhutziz and the metallurgy of the proper washers used. Critiquing that information is also appropriate. Be that as it may, I have graded enough papers in my life, some from Ivy League students who don't seem to have the same grasp of English grammar and usage as the worst I've seen on this list. I knew what Mr. Buchan meant. In this forum - so what if its a fragment? Please, lets not start worrying about grammar here. Jerry has enough to do without having to scan our posts for grammar and syntax. Stepping down from the professorial podium to go discuss the merits of PRR dining car operations with a chef who has probably never ridden a train in this country and certainly not the PRR [and you wondered if I would get PRR content in], MEA On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:18:21 -0500 (EST) Derrick J Brashear writes: > > On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Alan Buchan wrote: > > > Regarding Staufer's use in PPII - yes I know its right in the beginning of the book (pg. 13 - unnumbered) - "The P. Co. is no more." His use there, and I have seen it in the PDYs also, is, quite frankly dead wrong. As he was using it as what I refer to as, a cutesy term for the PRR. > > Did you mean this to be one sentence? What you have is a sentence fragment (starting with As...) and a sentence (His use there....). I don't believe the P. Co. still exists, but by the Penn Central days the P. Co. was a holding company. "The Wreck of the Penn Central" by Daughen and Binzen includes it in the organizational chart. > > -D > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:26:34 -0800 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60 More info Dave and the List, In case you didn't recognize it, the Rivarossi/AHM/IHC/now-distributed-by-Model Expo HO smooth side (not really, but that's how they advertise it) RPO is a BM70nb with modernized features (arch roof and 4-wheel trucks). Anybody who wants to do a quick-and-dirty backdate of it can do so by using one of the Rivarossi's 72' heavyweight coaches. The clerestory roof/window part will fit down in the RPO body with minor trimming of the corners of the vertical window sides/ends. Then all you need to do is add a pair of their regular 6-wheel trucks and appropriate couplers to do it. Okay it ain't the most accurate thing in the world, but then that's not the point of this exercise--just change the look from a distance of 3 ft of a moving train (if I recall correctly what was said in an earlier post). I did a couple of these about six years ago and they aren't bad at all to give a very different flavor to a train. Chuck Friedlein demcneil wrote: > Roger, > > Thanks for the history on the cars. I did manage to find a drawing of > the cars in Wayner's "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger And Freight Car > Diagrams" of 1981 on page 3. The dimensions match those you cited, but > the weight varied by 1100 lbs... Using that info I found 5 cars that > matched in the 1953 "Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" as > provided on one of the CD's sold by Merchandise Service. The numbers > were 5416 to 5419 and 5439. I think that's probably good enough for me, > however I'd still like to see a picture or lettering plan. > > Again, thanks this is what I think this list is all about. > > Dave McNeil > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:07:23 EST Subject: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... Hey Yuze Gize, I have kept this a little secret for sometime now and I am finally going to blab it out. I have had for sometime now a Highliner/Athearn F-unit test shot shell. I told Paul Lubliner that I would not let on that it was here until he made all the final tweaking, he has done that and the first test shot rolled out last Friday (yesterday). He will review the production run the first of the week. I know that there must be a million questions, besides when will we see them in the shops (Mid February). Yes, these shells will yield every variation form an F-2 to an F-9. But some work will be required to create all the variations, this is definitely not shake the box here! My test shot was in translucent white plastic and I have yet to prime the shell. The detail is every bit as nice as the B-unit that was release nearly a decade ago. Fire away with questions. Let me give you this information, so we do not rerun the same information over and over. I have no idea what the price is, whatever it is it worth it to me. No, I don't have an Intermountain to compare it to but I did compare them in Chicago and the Highliner was clearly the better, but their painted samples did nothing for them. Athearn will release no undecs Highliner with release no painted shells. I do not have a chassis. I like the approach, Athearn will take control of the powered units and Highliner will go after the retro fit market. So, Fire away and I will do my best to answer any and all questions. If I can't, I will get an answer from Paul as quickly as possible. Let's not challenge my knowledge of F-units as it is good but not the last word, but I caught several errors in Jeff Wilson's recently release Kalmbach book, F UNITS The DIESEL That Did It. And yes, Pennsy was one of the few roads to receive F-5's and yes there was an F-5, it was a designation in the engineering department but not in the marketing department. Know the difference...? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:43:04 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Some thoughts on P.Co. vs. PRR (long) Greetings to Alan, Greg, Rick, Michael, Derrick, everyone who weighed in on this topic . . . and the list: Often I try to keep a low profile on questions like this because editing and grammar is one way I make a living, and at times I get obsessive about language and usage. So I want to avoid shrill mode. But I do concur with Alan's conclusion--that "P. Co." is a regional usage that Al Staufer, in his editorial enthusiasm, applied to all things PRR in his second PRR book. I believe that Alan's post was intended to provoke public discussion over that distinction, but some list members found either Alan's observation, or maybe the way it was written, to be offensive. I didn't--I read it as simply a case of trying to set the record straight before the usage becomes too institutionalized. Remember that this happened with steam locomotive pilots on the PRR. Some books referred to the modernized design as "cast" when in fact it used heavy sheet metal. Others picked up the "cast" usage and kept it alive for many years, even though it was wrong. Another case: Brunswick green. I first saw the term Brunswick in an 1880s book about Altoona (it wasn't an official PRR publication). The fact that the term Brunswick isn't official is validated every time we read a certain four-letter word here on the list, right? But that doesn't stop some folks from using it. Another case: In 1938, Railway Age published a photo purporting to show the first electric train to arrive in Harrisburg. Either a photo was mislabeled or a caption writer had a bad day, because for more than 40 years, the error persisted that GG1 4863 hauled the first revenue train into Harrisburg. In fact, it was 4859, a fact that was pretty important to verify before our local NRHS chapter went about trying to purchase and restore 4859. Fortunately, local newspaper files and microfilms existed (from both the Harrisburg and Lancaster papers, providing corroboration), showing both the correct photo, with engine number prominent, and stories in which the reporter who rode the train wrote explicitly that it was the 4859. It's easy to make assumptions, leave misimpressions, and commit outright mistakes in print. In newspaper and magazine work, I found that it happens more frequently than anyone likes. As when I once wrote a newspaper story identifying an airplane as a Lockheed BAC-111. [<=sentence fragment allowed.] BAC stands for British Aircraft Co., which was a competitor to Lockheed, so I was dead wrong. But in any case, I read Alan's point as being that there comes a time to call timeout on either misimpressions or mistakes, no matter how innocent their origin may have been. And I think that "P. Co." was entirely unintentional. Remember that Al Staufer lives in Ohio, where that term may well have surfaced in oral exchanges/history in the 1960s and 1970s, when he was assembling the material for his books. One of an author's greatest challenges is to make his or her writing as transparent as possible--that is, to avoid making the assumption in print that all readers have exactly the same background as you. Alan B. is right. And Al S. was right . . . but only to a point. It was, if anything, a misimpression or misjudgment, not a deliberate attempt to mislead. If anyone cares, here are some reasons why I'm convinced that the phrase "P. Co." is or was strictly a regional, and probably mostly oral, tradition. -- That the "P. Co." usage isn't universal is strongly suggested by the fact that it didn't surface in Al Staufer's first (1962) Pennsy Power, nor in any of the dozens of other PRR books that either preceded PPII or followed it in the first several years. -- Nor does it appear in any broad reading of literature -- not in non-railfan books about the PRR, nor biographies about PRR people, nor quasi-railfan books, nor general business histories, nor business or trade periodicals (Railway Age, Railway Age Gazette, Modern Railroads, Progressive Railroading, Fortune), nor Poor's and Moody's. (i.e., books such as No Way to Run a Railroad, Wreck of Penn Central, Late Great Pennsylvania Station, the biographies of Thomson, Cassatt, Haupt, and to a lesser extent, Atterbury). Surely if this term were floating around out there in general usage around the 26,000-mile system, some employee or official somewhere would have spoken it to some reporter or author and it would have slipped into print. Doesn't appear to be the case. -- In the "My .02" category, in many years of living in central and western Pennsylvania (10 miles from Conway Yard at one point), I'd never heard the term until I read it in Al Staufer's Pennsy Power II. My grandfather and great-grandfatther were PRR men, my father worked for a PRR supplier, and my uncle was a PRR conductor. All of my family rode the PRR and even those who didn't work for it, like the women, were conversant with it and its oral traditions. Cabin car, shifter, all of the terms were handed down in the family as well as on the property. Also, in various jobs and roles, I've spoken with and interviewed many Altoonans over the years. In all of these associations, the verbal shorthand boiled down to this: In the 1950s, close to 100 percent of the verbal references that I remember were spoken as "P-R-R." In the 1960s, it was about 90 percent "P-R-R", about 10 percent "Pennsy." Since then, my impression is that "Pennsy" has gained, to perhaps 40 or 50 percent. Enough for now. Let the flames begin? Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Micah 6:8 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:02:06 -0800 Greg--That is great news. I really like the B unit. Question: let's start at the front. Will the kit include a passenger pilot to make us Pennsy SPF's happy? The F5: On the PRR that must have been the first order of "F7's", with the small number boards, 9690-9699. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:18:17 -0500 From: zak Subject: [PRR] Couplers for N-Scale Hello, all. I am planning on building a small N-scale layout, and a month or so I was got a copy of the Sep/Oct '99 issue of N-Scaler, which I had never seen or heard of before. Two of the articles interested me, though, as in them the writers used Z-scale body mounted couplers on their N-Scale cars. The pictures in the magazine showed much shorter separationn between cars as with normal N-scale couplers, but seemed to be more "lifelike". My questions are (and I admit ahead of time that I am new at this): 1. Would using Z-scale couplers make me need wider curves in the track, over a 22" radius? 2. Would they be better used for a made up train...i.e., a passenger train that didn't have to be broken up? 3. Could they be used in a branch line scenaraio...i.e., dropping off and picking up cars by one switcher? I would appreciate your comments on this. Zak ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:51:41 -0800 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Couplers for N-Scale Zak, In reply, let me say that the information I have is meant for you to consider in forming your own opinion on whether or not to use Z scale couplers on N scale equipment. Obviously the big pro to using Z scale couplers is that they are closer to prototype size for N scale. The two big cons are that they (the knuckles) aren't as strong for pulling long trains, and that proper mounting height for N scale would be too high for the trip pins to be activated by uncoupler magnets. The latter is the biggest drawback if you plan to do any hands-off switching. In all liklihood, you would have to be careful with the minimum radius the shorter coupling distance would require. The "acid test" is to test fit some couplers to your longest cars and locos, and push them through a reverse ("S") curve of the smallest radius you plan to use--try enough to make a train about the length/number of cars you plan on running. Pushing compresses the centering springs and reduces the separation between cars. Also, in a reverse curve, you can observe the forces that act upon the couplers--you'd be surprised what happens as they are forced to one side or the other by vector forces (this applies in all scales). If the cars/locos negotiate that without any derailments, banging car body corners, or other problems, then you're probably going to be okay. I could say a lot more, but I think this will give you an idea. Personally, I wouldn't use Z couplers on N equipment. I've done more testing on this subject than I like to think of. BTW, the magazine I think you got was 'N-Scale' (haven't heard of one called 'N Scaler') magazine published by Hundman Publishing--same people who publish Mainline Modeler--both are great magazines. Chuck Friedlein zak wrote: > Hello, all. > I am planning on building a small N-scale layout, and a > month or so I was got a copy of the Sep/Oct '99 issue > of N-Scaler, which I had never seen or heard of before. > Two of the articles interested me, though, as in them > the writers used Z-scale body mounted couplers on their > N-Scale cars. > The pictures in the magazine showed much shorter > separationn between cars as with normal N-scale > couplers, but seemed to be more "lifelike". > My questions are (and I admit ahead of time that I am > new at this): > 1. Would using Z-scale couplers make me need wider > curves in the track, over a 22" radius? > 2. Would they be better used for a made up > train...i.e., a passenger train that didn't have to be > broken up? > 3. Could they be used in a branch line > scenaraio...i.e., dropping off and picking up cars by > one switcher? > I would appreciate your comments on this. > Zak > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:39:19 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Couplers for N-Scale From: "Doug and Marianne" Zak: In theory (or under idea conditions - which never exist on your own railroad) z scale couplers should work, but you're asking for trouble. Z scale MT couplers will even mate with N scale MT couplers, but any small bump in the track is likely to result in an uncoupling. I have used Z scale MT couplers on the front of lead locomotives that are used rarely. There the more scaled appearance can be appreciated. Good Luck. Doug N. Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:07:46 -0800 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: [PRR] Re: [FC] Looking for Charlie Houser Quite a reasonable number, but I don't really know--it's been too long since I last saw him in person at a show. Chuck Charlie wrote: > What roads does he have in his colection. > > Charlie > > >I'm looking for a good address and most of all a phone > >number for Charlie Houser--The Houser Collection--of > >railroad photos and slides. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 07:08:51 -0700 Hi Greg... Hot Diggity Dawg...A units FINALLY comming!. Sign me up for a couple of dozen (or so...) Now, you mention the F5. Yup, I do know what an F5 is (an F3 innards in a F7 carbody is my impression) and I believe that Santa Fe had a couple...the first two units of the 200 series were supposedly F5's(not corraborated by the experts on the Santa Fe, but still, Worley claims that they were F5's. I think the build date would confirm this.) Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; MIDEASTmodeler@onelist.com ; MIDWESTmodeler@onelist.com ; NEModelers@onelist.com Cc: ELM2@aol.com ; Mksme@aol.com ; AlbertSR@aol.com ; Joseph.Jack@conrail.com ; JFuhrtrain@aol.com ; Stuthayer@aol.com ; VRYODER@aol.com ; ShenangoRS@aol.com ; johnhwrignt@nmrabr.freeuk.com ; jimsix@ncweb.com ; markkerlick@att.net ; JWelther@aol.com ; STEVEGG1@aol.com ; Ederouin@aol.com ; RGSPEMKT@aol.com ; rljack@pathway.net ; CALLOWAYW@aol.com ; dbourque@juno.com ; LINESWEST@aol.com ; Engrchip@aol.com ; kris.kollar@paharr.ang.af.mil ; stibb@primenet.com ; PIXELS@ameritech.net ; gc8@gte.net ; DWa9975062@aol.com ; petehawrd@altavista.com Date: Saturday, January 15, 2000 8:14 PM Subject: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... >Hey Yuze Gize, > >I have kept this a little secret for sometime now and I am finally going to >blab it out. > >I have had for sometime now a Highliner/Athearn F-unit test shot shell. I >told Paul Lubliner that I would not let on that it was here until he made all >the final tweaking, he has done that and the first test shot rolled out last >Friday (yesterday). He will review the production run the first of the week. > >I know that there must be a million questions, besides when will we see them >in the shops (Mid February). Yes, these shells will yield every variation >form an F-2 to an F-9. But some work will be required to create all the >variations, this is definitely not shake the box here! My test shot was in >translucent white plastic and I have yet to prime the shell. The detail is >every bit as nice as the B-unit that was release nearly a decade ago. > >Fire away with questions. Let me give you this information, so we do not >rerun the same information over and over. I have no idea what the price is, >whatever it is it worth it to me. No, I don't have an Intermountain to >compare it to but I did compare them in Chicago and the Highliner was clearly >the better, but their painted samples did nothing for them. Athearn will >release no undecs Highliner with release no painted shells. I do not have a >chassis. I like the approach, Athearn will take control of the powered units >and Highliner will go after the retro fit market. > >So, Fire away and I will do my best to answer any and all questions. If I >can't, I will get an answer from Paul as quickly as possible. Let's not >challenge my knowledge of F-units as it is good but not the last word, but I >caught several errors in Jeff Wilson's recently release Kalmbach book, F >UNITS The DIESEL That Did It. And yes, Pennsy was one of the few roads to >receive F-5's and yes there was an F-5, it was a designation in the >engineering department but not in the marketing department. Know the >difference...? > >Greg Martin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:33:28 EST Subject: [PRR] RE: modeling PRR steam locomotives Hi List. Concerning detailing of PRR steamers, and the "air line" (I believe it was called that) running to the power reverse, I had never seen any photos that showed any such thing either. And about 8 months ago I completed a Bowser I1s kit circa 1925, and spent large amounts of time doing photo research on the correct placement of details, absence or presence in 1925, etc. Then yesterday a copy of the book of photos "Pennsylvania Steam - Locomotives and Trains" as photographed in Northern New Jersey 1931-1938, from the collection of Robert K. Durham, arrived. I've seen this book advertised by rail book dealers as "Durham Steam". I bought mine direct; shipment was very very quick and it was signed by the author. Anyway, the "air line". On page 38 there is a large, clear photo of the engineer's side of M1 #6712 in Jersey City New Jersey in 1936. As plain as day on one of the clearest photos in the book, there is said "air line" as modeled in the MR article on detailing PRR Decapods. I haven't started another search back through everything to see if I find other examples that I missed before, but it does seem that at least some PRR steamers had that "air line". This is the first time I noticed it, so it must be that it was rarely outside the boiler jacket like that. You learn something new every day. Jim Anderson PRRT&HS 3995 sny114@aol.com Modeling Elmira Division circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "walter mcwilliams" Subject: [PRR] PRR: Painting Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:10:49 -0500 Im looking for the names of anyone that might be interested in painting a bowser I1 I have completed. Im familiar with how to do it, but dont have the facilities any longer. The army smashed up my air compressor on my last move and I havent been able to replace it. Thanks Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:39:40 -0500 From: zak Subject: [PRR] N-Scale couplers Thanks to you all for your advice. It was pretty much what I expected, but it's nice to get confirmation from those how have tried using Z-scale couplers on N-scale. Oh, I was incorrect about 'N-Scaler'...it is 'N-Scale'. Thanks for pointing that out. What I'll probably wind up doing is setting up a small branch-line operation with N-scale couplers to move freight around, and have a small 'diorama' area set aside for a dummy engine and passenger cars, with the Z-scale couplers. BTW, does anyone know of a company that makes just the interiors for the Bachmann "Plus" series of passenger cars? Zak ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 08:41:30 -0800 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] Highliner A-units Hi, Greg Martin has said that the Highliner A units are ready. But, in one line in his original post he says, "He (meaning Paul Lubliner) will review the production run the first of the week" That is the problem! When Paul L. reviews something he always finds some thing or some nit wrong and it's back to the drawing board again. This has been going on for a long time, and has been particularly distressing to the folks at Athearn. I wouldn't count on seeing these until they actually are on the shelves and to say that it will be February, based on past performance, is a tad optimistic. I am looking forward to their arrival since the B units were so fine, but I've learned to not hold my breath when Paul has to "review the production run" or has to "review" anything. Regards, Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 714-278-2669 Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (Fax) P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:19:41 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR book status: anybody know? Hi all. Anybody know the status of the new book "Pennsylvania RR Steel Open Hopper Cars" by John Teichmoeller? It was supposed to be out in September 1999; I placed an advance reservation/discount order with the publisher in August, and haven't heard another word about it since. Before I call the publisher, I thought I'd check with the list in case someone else already knows the answer. Thanks. Jim Anderson PRRT&HS 3995 sny114@aol.com Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:54:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR book status: anybody know? In a message dated 1/16/2000 9:28:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, SNY114@aol.com writes: << Anybody know the status of the new book "Pennsylvania RR Steel Open Hopper Cars" by John Teichmoeller? >> Mine has also been on order and not shown up either . . . presumably the Curse of the Railroad Books has struck this one as well. Lee 6006 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:03:29 -0500 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] Bowser tenders Hello, A while back, when Bowser introduced their new tender, a number of folks on this list indicated that they would be using this tender to upgrade their locomotives. Might some of the replaced tenders be of the Bowser high side variety? If anyone out there has an excess high side tender (with or without doghouse) that they're willing to part with, please contact me off list. Thanks Elliot ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:47:27 EST Subject: [PRR] RE: tenders for PRR G5s 4-6-0 Hi all. January 16, 2000 The plastic tender attached to the plastic-bodied PRR G5s 4-6-0 I mentioned last week is a very good close model of the 70P82a tenders used with the G5s. Apparently the original prototype tenders were 70P82, with a straight back board on the coal space and lower side sheets, but carried more coal (31800 lbs.) and less water (7700 gallons) than the 70P82a (24100 lbs. coal, 8300 gallons water), which had the coal board at the rear of the bunker at a 45 degree angle and higher side sheets. Those figures are from a PRR document on one of the CD-ROMs from Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, the gracious host of PRR-talk (Did I get that plug right, Jerry?). It was on Volume 2 of Excerpts from Keystone Crossing, December 1997. The document is No. 109-K, "Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders", dated June 2, 1952. It has diesel classification information too. I then checked the model against the drawings of G5s and tender in MR's Cyclopedia Volume 1, Steam Locomotives, and against photos in Pennsy Power I, II, and III. All the major dimensions (length, height, width, truck centers, truck center offsets from front and rear of frame, etc.) checked out exactly with these exceptions: 1) Coal board on model is too short, by about 15-18 scale inches; 2) side sheets (walls) of coal bunker appear to be 1-2 scale inches too low. The model coal board is supported by two braces, which are oversize (you might want to replace them). There is also a ladder in between the braces on the model, but I could not find such a ladder in either the scale drawings nor in pictures. Both are easily removed. I could not find drawings or photos of the rear tender deck and water hatch, so I can't tell if those are correct on the model. Checking rivets, the rivets on the model are wonderfully small, possibly scale-sized, like you see on the best plastic freight car kits these days. The rivets seem to match almost exactly the rivets in pictures of 70P82a tenders where you can see the rivets. This is true of the side of the frame as well, although it has some extra rivets I didn't see in pix or drawings. These could be easily removed if you wanted to. There are some discrepancies in photos of 70P82a tenders as to the rivet lines for the slanted coal board: the model's rivets match some of the photos I examined, and did not match other photos. Apparently when the conversions were done there was not a clearly defined standard as to how the coal board should be riveted to the sidewalls. The rivets on the rear wall of the tender match photos almost exactly, except some photos had rivets that the model doesn't. The pattern of the additional ones look like the end wall was being attached to internal beans or something; they're in a rectangular pattern. They could be later additions. The detailing of doors, hinges, latches on the front wall of the tender are questionable in my mind, but that's only because these features do not appear in the drawings, nor did any pictures show these. They appear plausible, but I really can't say if they're correct. The steps/stirrups on the corners are the correct size and shape, and even the side steps to the front deck are correctly done: the semi-circle "sides" of the steps have the correct shape. The model's trucks are some crummy plastic "Bettendorf" freight trucks, which would need to be replaced by PRR Dolphin trucks (according to pix and drawing). On the whole, this tender is an extremely close match for the prototype 70P82a tenders. For my money, the discrepancies are so minor that only a true SPF tender freak would notice the differences, and I think even that statement is a "maybe". Latch onto them if you see them; they sometimes show up on e-bay (usually with the loco), at train shows, or at hobby shops in the "bargain" or "junk" boxes. With new trucks, some minor work on the coal board and braces, some minor re-detailing, and perhaps the addition of some details (like free-standing wire grabs) and new paint, you can have a great scale model of the 70P82a tender to drag around behind your Bowser G5s. It's a pity these models are no longer available. I wonder whatever happened to the dies for them. Jim Anderson PRRT&HS 3995 sny114@aol.com Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:01:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Detailing PRR Decapods: the "air line" to the power reverse Hi all. While researching my review of the plastic 70P82a tender, I looked through Pennsy Power I, II, and III, and found some more photos of PRR steam locos that show this air line, but most do not show it. The ones I saw that do show it are as follows, all in PP III (I forgot to look when I was paging through PP I and II, and didn't feel like going back and looking again when I remembered): I1s 4488 on page 107 I1s on page 109 G5s 3109 on page 138 (1934 pix) K4s 5385 on page 177 M1 6842 on page 183 (1937 pix) ("from the PRRT&HS Collection"!) M1 6856 on page 187 M1 6869 on page 187 >From the two dated photos, maybe this was only done on some engines in the 30's (????) Hard to say. More research with dated photos is needed to set a timeframe more accurately. But it seems definite that we cannot say the air lines were never done that way; in some cases they were. Jim Anderson PRRT&HS 3995 sny114@aol.com Modeling Elmira Division circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Hopper Book Delayed Was: PRR book status: anybody Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:05:58 -0500 Randy Lee writes editorially in the Dec 1999/Jan 2000 edition of "Model Railroading" as follows: I regret to inform you that the publication of the Pennsy hopper book has been delayed due to circumstances beyond our control. We now expect it to go to press in January, so it should be available sometime in February. Our apologies to those who have already ordered and prepaid. John is putting the finishing touches on the material to make sure it is the most comprehensive book ever done on Pennsy's hoppers, so I'm sure you'll feel it was worth the wait. Additional insight MAY be available on the mag's website: www.modelrailroadingmag.com - >In a message dated 1/16/2000 9:28:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, SNY114@aol.com >writes: > ><< Anybody know the status of the new book "Pennsylvania RR Steel Open Hopper > Cars" by John Teichmoeller? >> > >Mine has also been on order and not shown up either . . . presumably the >Curse of the Railroad Books has struck this one as well. > >Lee 6006 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] DN Tower Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:16:44 -0500 In February's RMC, a short article on Pennsy's "DN" tower was written by Jim Panza. Does anyone know what this tower controlled and what line it was on? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:40:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR# For PC SW1 9408? In a message dated 01/14/2000 7:33:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, patrick@dementia.org writes: << I'm a member of The Railway Exposition Company, Inc, in Latonia, Kentucky and we have a PRR SW1. We know its number under Penn Central, 9408, but not its PRR number. Does anyone know the number or can point me where I can find it? >> According to Penn Central Power PC 9408 was an Alco S3 not and EMD SW1. PRR 9408 was an SW1 which became PC 8579. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:05:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... Greg: Any guess as to whether or not the Highliner shell will fit the Stewart aka Kato frames? Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:15:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Cork Sheets Folks, I don't recall which list this subject was mentione on previously, but hopefully someone can help out. I'm using Midwest cork roadbed (HO scale) on the mainline, and was considering using cork sheet for a yard area. Didn't soemone mention using a cork product intended for making wall areas into giant bulletin boards? What was the nane of the product, and what chain stores carried it? Also, what was the thickness, or is there a variety of thicknesses available? Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:18:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower In a message dated 01/16/2000 4:32:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << In February's RMC, a short article on Pennsy's "DN" tower was written by Jim Panza. Does anyone know what this tower controlled and what line it was on? >> DN tower was on the Allegheny VAlley Line of the Conemaugh Division. Located 10.1 miles from the division post in Pittsburgh, DN tower controlled access to the Verona yard, mainline crossovers and the junction with the Plum Creek branch. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:34:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... In a message dated 1/16/00 7:19:25 AM Mountain Standard Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << Now, you mention the F5. Yup, I do know what an F5 is (an F3 innards in a F7 carbody is my impression) >> As I nderstand it the F5 is an F3 with the generator and traction motors that would be used in the F7. At least it was something like that. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:36:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... I saw one about 6 months ago at a hobby shop in Palos Heights Illinois. The one I saw was grey plastic that felt soapy but the quality was excellent. I don't think I could ever justify the difference in cost for the difference in detail but to each his own. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:41:10 -0500 From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR# For PC SW1 9408? Rich and List, > According to Penn Central Power PC 9408 was an Alco S3 not and EMD SW1. > > PRR 9408 was an SW1 which became PC 8579. Someone has informed me of this already. Next time I'm down there I'm going to talk to the man in charge of operations about it. The switcher is definitely an EMD product. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:23:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... In a message dated 1/16/00 3:05:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, SUVCW ORR writes: << Any guess as to whether or not the Highliner shell will fit the Stewart aka Kato frames? >> Rich, It is a drop in fit. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:26:37 -0600 (CST) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR book status: anybody know? >Hi all. >Anybody know the status of the new book "Pennsylvania RR Steel Open Hopper >Cars" by John Teichmoeller? It was supposed to be out in September 1999; I >placed an advance reservation/discount order with the publisher in August, >and haven't heard another word about it since. Before I call the publisher, I >thought I'd check with the list in case someone else already knows the answer. Word I got yesterday (Saturday) was that some new photos were found and are included in the book, which is now scheduled for a Feb. release. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 19:44:45 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] I-1 tender trucks Hello Hank and the list, While I am much stronger on K4s questions, here's my shot at this. On page 85 of Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T, in a chapter written by Pennypacker, he writes "During World War II years, a large number of modified 210F82a were built for use with Decapods. They featured Commonwealth eight-wheel trucks, low skirts, and smoothly welded flanks...." My only concern with this source is that Pennypacker doesn't research his stories to the extent that Roger Keyser does. Also, I can't get any more specific than the WWII years. As a slight aside, the first 210F82 was built in 1929; it had riveted sides and six wheel journal bearing trucks (Classic Power 8: Pennsylvania M1, page 83). While this was also written by Pennypacker, I feel I can treat this with greater confidence than the above information. Doug bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Hi All... > > Anyone know when the eight wheel trucks were first used under > the I-1 engine tenders ? > > H.Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: Grading Papers was Re: [PRR] RE: P Company Moniker Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:32:23 -0000 I've always had trouble with English - its only my first language. Derrick's other point was good though, as in fact the P. Co. was actually still alive as a holding company and part of the PCTC. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:46:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower The only turnout that the DN operator actually operated was the switch leading from the single main track to the Verona Industrial track. This switch provided the means for southbound traffic to leave the main and onto the Verona Industrial. According to one of the operators, when the Allegheny Valley was double track (prior to 1960), there was a trailing and facing point manual crossover that he operated on either side of James Street. In a message dated 1/16/00 4:29:58 PM Central Standard Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: > Subj: Re: [PRR] DN Tower > Date: 1/16/00 4:29:58 PM Central Standard Time > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > To: Ted.Andrews@woolpert.com, prr-talk@dsop.com > > In a message dated 01/16/2000 4:32:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: > > << In February's RMC, a short article on Pennsy's "DN" tower was written by > Jim > Panza. Does anyone know what this tower controlled and what line it was on? > >> > DN tower was on the Allegheny VAlley Line of the Conemaugh Division. > Located > 10.1 miles from the division post in Pittsburgh, DN tower controlled access > to the Verona yard, mainline crossovers and the junction with the Plum Creek > > branch. > > Rich Orr > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: electricloco@webtv.net (Richard Duley) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 20:56:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] GG1 Can anyone direct me to a source which details the layout of the GG1's interior? Thanks Richard ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David William Gnuse Subject: [PRR] FW: [TheOSList] TNFH Abandonments Dept: PA Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:37:43 -0500 All, According to the STB, the line along the ex cr/ex prr black lick secondary between mp 10 and mp 16 has been abandoned and is currently in trail use. Can anyone along that line confirm this? Are there/were there any telegaph poles there? David --------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Gnuse dgnuse@erols.com kickitup@railfan.net Fractal Page Railfan Page www.erols.com/dgnuse kickitup.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 22:21:46 -0600 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] F3-F5-F7 It's not a Pennsy book, but the Northern Pacific Diesel Era, by Larry Schrenk, has EMD notifying the NP that the new units they were getting would be "an improved version of the F3 locomotive", commonly referred to on the NP and by others as an F5. These are the models which railfans, using the phase system developed by Extra 2200 South, call F3, Phase 4, which has an F7 body except that the dynamic brake, where present, is the F3 style. I see no reason that NP's F5s would be notably different than The P Company's. Yes, we did sometimes call it the P Company out here in Chicago! Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:02:21 -0500 From: jpbtrans Subject: [PRR] a sighting On Saturday 1-15-00 a westbound train crossed at Lake Ave. in Buffalo, NY with a gon in the consist in original PRR paint and lettering save? (forgive me) an NYC sticker on it. My son saw it first, after it was almost by us, and I was so shocked that I forgot to write the number down. On a different subject. Some time ago, I asked the list for info on a tower that was between Horseshoe Curve and MG. I have forgotten if it was IA or AI. But, a question. What did it control? I know that MG had crossovers. Were there other crossovers in the area? Thank you, Jon Anderson (jpbtrans@Gateway.net) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:21:44 EST Subject: Re: [NEModelers] Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... Steve, Let me reply in context... << From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Greg--That is great news. I really like the B unit. Question: let's start at the front. Will the kit include a passenger pilot to make us Pennsy SPF's happy?>> Yes, it will include the "enclosed couple pilot", often referred to as the "passenger pilot" as well as the "exposed coupler pilot" often referred to as the "freight pilot" <> Yes, but the F-5 was identical to the F-7 externally, but the traction motors were the same as the F-3 while the generator had been upgraded. However on the PRR the 36" diameter dynamic brake fan was paired with the streamlined number boars. BTW the Highliner shell will have both size streamlined number boards, the 3 digit and 4 digit length. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 01:50:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Industries in the Pittsburgh area in 1950s Hello, I am collaborating with some members of the Operations SIG to compile a database of 1950s industries for use with the Sheware waybill generation software. To date we have a database of about 1500 industry-town-railroad-product records for the states of PA, NY, OH, MD, WV, representing actual shippers and receivers active in the 1950s. For Penna, the methodology was to list all industries in the 1951 Penna Industrial Directory that employed over 500 people, and then track down the railroad that served them. We are still facing a few unknowns, usually in the large cities. Listed below are a number of industries in the Pittsburgh area. Can anyone help me confirm what railroad -- if any -- served these particular plants? I will trade a copy of the database for the rest of the state of Penna in return for any help. Many thanks. Lee Rainey PRRTHS 6006 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - list begins here - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - County Company Town Allegheny Blaw-Knox Co. Pittsburgh Allegheny Continental Can Co. McKees Rocks Allegheny Continental Foundry & Machine Co. Moon Twp. Allegheny Firth-Sterling Steel & Carbide Corp. McKeesport Allegheny GMC Fisher Body Div. West Mifflin Allegheny Heppenstall Co. Pittsburgh Allegheny Kelsey-Hayes Wheel Co. Port Vue Allegheny McConway & Torley Corp. Pittsburgh Allegheny Mine Safety Appliance Co. Pittsburgh Allegheny National Biscuit Co. Pittsburgh Allegheny National Supply Co. Etna Allegheny Pittsburgh Coal Co. Findlay Twp. Allegheny Pittsburgh Des Moines Co. Neville Twp. Allegheny Pittsburgh Industrial Eng. Co. Pittsburgh Allegheny Rockwell Mfg. Co. Pittsburgh Allegheny Superior Steel Corp. Scott Twp. Allegheny U.S. Steel Corp. Clairton Allegheny U.S. Steel Natl. Tube Div. McKeesport Allegheny United States Steel Duquesne Allegheny United States Steel Braddock Allegheny Universal Atlas Cement Co. Universal Allegheny Universal-Cyclops Steel Corp. Collier Twp. Allegheny Westinghouse Elec. Corp. E. Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 03:39:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Grading Papers was Re: [PRR] RE: P Company Moniker From: Michael Allen My comment about grading was in the same vein w/ tongue firmly in cheek. Understand that when I wrote that I had just given my annual speech [always in answer to the obvious question] about why Washington had to rent some boats to cross the Delaware and then march on Trenton through the woods instead of walking across the bridge and following the old railroad [Bel-Del] along the canal.... mea On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:29:46 -0500 (EST) Derrick J Brashear writes: > The "actual content" was the Penn Central bit; The bit about the > grammar > was mostly a joke. My hope is that Alan was not offended and took it > as > such. > > > -D > > > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Charles Houser, Jr. Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 08:20:55 -0000 Somebody was looking for Charles. The latest business card I have lists him at 5548 Louise Lane, Northampton, PA 18067-9072, TP 610-837-6167. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:35:31 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Industries in the Pittsburgh area in 1950s Lee and List, The below limited response is based on my limited knowledge of Pittsburgh railroad geography. > Mine Safety Appliance Co Located on PRR main line in Homewood section of Pgh, 1/4 mile west of Wilkinsburg station. > National Biscuit Co. Located on PRR main line in East Liberty section of Pgh, immediately east of East Liberty station. > U.S. Steel Corp., Clairton PRR and Union RR > United States Steel, Duquesne PRR and Union > United States Steel, Braddock (E.T. Works) PRR, B&O, and Union > Westinghouse Elec. Corp., E. Pittsburgh PRR (located on PRR main in Turtle Creek Valley, just "around the corner" from E.T. Works) Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:56:03 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: eCommerce Web Hosting From: Jerry Britton Please excuse this short interruption from your regularly scheduled programming... As most of you know, I offset many of the costs of my PRR web site and the numerous lists that I serve by hosting web sites. Through April 30, 2000, I am offering a special incentive for NEW customers who are looking for a complete eCommerce solution. I am offering a superb price and feature list. For complete details, please see: http://www.dsop.com/webhosting.html We now return you to your regular programming... --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:40:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower In a message dated 01/16/2000 8:46:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, JDPanza writes: << The only turnout that the DN operator actually operated was the switch leading from the single main track to the Verona Industrial track. This switch provided the means for southbound traffic to leave the main and onto the Verona Industrial. >> As with all historical questions, the time frame is important. I have a poor quality interlocking diagram dated 1938 which shows DN as shown below. _yd lead______ ________/_______________________________________to Oakmont >_____ ____/_____/__ \__________________________________________________ ____________\_______________________________________________________ _______/ \____ Ind siding Plum Creek branch | | | | | | Grant St | South St | James St ETT Sept 25 1949 no longer lists DN as an interlocking but has it down rated to a block station. I do not know when it was changed from an interlocking to a block station. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:47:13 -0500 From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > DN tower was on the Allegheny VAlley Line of the Conemaugh Division. Located > 10.1 miles from the division post in Pittsburgh, DN tower controlled access > to the Verona yard, mainline crossovers and the junction with the Plum Creek > branch. Isn't this the location of the Allegheny Valley Railroad's (AVR) headquarters? I have often seen the AVR's GP10 sitting their. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:11:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] a sighting In a message dated 01/17/2000 1:12:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, jpbtrans@gateway.net writes: << Some time ago, I asked the list for info on a tower that was between Horseshoe Curve and MG. I have forgotten if it was IA or AI. But, a question. What did it control? I know that MG had crossovers. Were there other crossovers in the area? >> ETT No. 11 Sept 26 1948 lists the following interlocking/interlocking stations/block stations in service between Slope and Cresson GY mp 3.3 interlocking, interlocking station and block station MG mp 7.1 interlocking, interlocking station and block station BF mp 10.2 interlocking SF mp 10.9 interlocking UN mp 12.0 interlocking AR mp 12.0 interlocking, interlocking station, block station MO mp 14 interlocking, interlocking station, block station BF and UN as emergency blovk stations and will be in service only when opened by train order, BF SF and UN were operated from AR SF controlled the New Portage branch access >From 1950's track charts GY appears to have been located at signal bridge 2407 and may have controlled the signals there (pure speculation). Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] I-1 Tenders Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:19:22 EST Hello for the first time to the list! I beleive that the eight wheeled tenders on the I-1's were added some time during the late WWII years or there after as I have a photo of one from 1948 and one during the thirties. If anyone has better info. please add or correct. Matt Sichel ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vastano,Sam" Subject: [PRR] Bowser T1 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:22:46 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BF60E5.8FD45DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am going to start my Bowser T1 kit pretty soon and would like some = input on a few items. 1. Number boards, any body make ones that I could back light?=20 2. If I try to make it non-articulated how big of a radius will I need = to still run it, also has anybody tried this and what method have you = used to make the 2 sets of drivers stationary? I was going to try to = make a template from sheet brass to tie them together?? Thanks in advance Sam ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BF60E5.8FD45DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am going to start my Bowser T1 kit = pretty soon=20 and would like some input on a few items.
 
1. Number boards, any body make ones = that I=20 could back light?
 
2. If I try to make it = non-articulated how big=20 of a radius will I need to still run it, also has anybody tried this and = what=20 method have you used to make the 2 sets of drivers stationary? I was = going to=20 try to make a template from sheet brass to tie them = together??
 
Thanks in advance
 
Sam
 
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BF60E5.8FD45DA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "walter mcwilliams" Subject: [PRR] I1sa 4592 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:38:53 -0500 I have a good foto of I1sa 4592 taking on coal at Starbrick PA. Can anyone give me some back round on this decapod? Also, does anyone have anyother fotos, drawings etc of the facilities in and around Starbrick? Thanks Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:54:27 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower For us neophytes: what is the difference between an interlocking and a block station, and is there furter difference in a manual block station? [How the ETT refers to varoius places on the Delmarva Division like Paton, Hearn, and Rogers, etc.} Thanks, Jim McDaniel, lost down here in Delmarva--where it was the "Nip and N" and then the P-R-R but never The P Company. The land under the railroad was owned by the PennDel Co however just to muddy the waters further. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] P-70FBR Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:23:42 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF60EE.12E147A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list, Currently working on three P-70FBR's ( less said of the trails and = tribulations the better) and I would appreciate answers to the following = questions: 1. What is the correct color scheme for the interiors? (Seats, floors, = walls, ect.) 2. Which end does the brake wheel go on? (end with the circular = windows?) 3. By replacing the kit supplied wheel sets, can I expect a level of = tracking adequate for use, or should I consign trucks and wheel sets to = scrap load for gondola and replace said with Bachmann trucks? It appears = that while maintaining sideframes square, axles of supplied wheel sets = could be longer so as to seat in the sideframe axel pockets. In fairness to the manufacturer, this is my first attempt at their kits = and some of the difficulties I have created myself. So much for the = learning curve. But a few, such as the problems I encountered body = mounting the KD's, are purely manufacturer created. Answers to the above questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF60EE.12E147A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list,
Currently working on three P-70FBR's ( = less said of=20 the trails and tribulations the better) and I would appreciate answers = to the=20 following questions:
1. What is the correct color scheme for = the=20 interiors? (Seats, floors, walls, ect.)
2. Which end does the brake wheel go = on? (end with=20 the circular windows?)
3. By replacing the kit supplied wheel = sets, =20 can I expect a level of tracking adequate for use, or should I consign = trucks=20 and wheel sets to scrap load for gondola and replace said with Bachmann = trucks?=20 It appears that while maintaining sideframes square, axles of = supplied=20 wheel sets could be longer so as to seat in the sideframe axel=20 pockets.
 
In fairness to the manufacturer, this = is my first=20 attempt at their kits and some of the difficulties I have created = myself. So=20 much for the learning curve. But a few, such as the problems I = encountered body=20 mounting the KD's, are purely manufacturer created.
Answers to the above questions would be = greatly=20 appreciated.
 
Thanks,
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF60EE.12E147A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:34:44 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] I1sa 4592 > > >From: "walter mcwilliams" > >To: "PRR-Talk" > >Subject: [PRR] I1sa 4592 > >Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:38:53 -0500 > > > >I have a good foto of I1sa 4592 taking on coal at Starbrick PA. Can anyone > >give me some back round on this decapod? Also, does anyone have anyother > >fotos, drawings etc of the facilities in and around Starbrick? > >Thanks Walt > > The 1945 CT100C shows the following: Star Brick, PA General Concrete Products Corp. and G.G.G. Metal Stamping Co. Distance from Renovo passenger station: 131.7 Star Brick, PA Warren Tank Car Co. No. 1 Distance from Renovo passenger station: 132.2 Star Brick, PA General Petroleum Products Co. Distance from Renovo passenger station: 132.5 -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:31:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower In a message dated 01/17/2000 11:47:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrick@dementia.org writes: << sn't this the location of the Allegheny Valley Railroad's (AVR) headquarters? I have often seen the AVR's GP10 sitting their. >> Hi Pat: Yes, the current Allegheny Valley Railroad does keep a GP10 near this location. Their engine house is actually in Oakmont. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower Date: Mon, 17 Jan 100 14:33:53 -0500 (EST) James L. McDaniel scribit: > > For us neophytes: what is the difference between an interlocking and a > block station, and is there furter difference in a manual block > station? [How the ETT refers to varoius places on the Delmarva Division > like Paton, Hearn, and Rogers, etc.} > > Thanks, Jim McDaniel, lost down here in Delmarva--where it was the "Nip > and N" and then the P-R-R but never The P Company. The land under the > railroad was owned by the PennDel Co however just to muddy the waters > further. I'll take a stab at answering this and invite any and all comments, corrections, amendments, revisions, etc. I'll also accept all grammatical corrections, flames, expletives, letter bombs, Word viruses, etc.. I'll try to avoid quoting the official definitions from the rule book because these are or quite arcane wording that often leave the novice just as confused afterward as he was ere the reading thereof. First off, let me start from the colloquial word "tower". What YSRF (Your Standard RailFan) would call a tower would generally encompass any and all of the terms you mention above, yet they are not exactly the same. The terms are found in all employee timetables, in the station pages, where each stretch of track is described. Next, let's get 2 basic things in: Interlocking: presumably most people know that an interlocking is a location where switches and signals are hooked up. The hookup is done in such a way that conflicting routes cannot be set (if the programming is done right). I use the modern term "programming" because that's really what it is, conceptually, whether your program consists of C code, binary instructions, hard-wiring of integrated circuit chips, hard-wiring of relays, or arranging brass rods so that they intersect in a particular way. Remember that the first computer (adding machine) was built by Blaise Pascal and was entirely mechanical. It did not run Windows, and therefore, was very reliable. :-) Station: the word 'station' as used on North American railroads does NOT require the presence of a building, and not much of anything else, for that matter. A sign stuck in the ground (white on blue, in the case of Conrail) is all that is needed. A station is merely this: a place with a name, listed in the employee timetable (ETT). OK, here we go: Interlocking Station: this is a tower (or cabin, or room, or dungeon, or Some Sort of Structure) that controls an interlocking. We generally think of these structures as being right at the interlocking itself, but they don't have to be. An interlocking can be remote controlled from another location, for example. Almost almost always an interlocking station was right at _one_ interlocking, at least, because this made sense "physical plant-wise". Only when CTC came around did it become practical to have an interlocking station at a location where there was no interlocking outside the front door. One example I can think of is LYCO interlocking, in downtown Williamsport. This was put in in the early PC days, IIRC. Block Station: if you saw one of these critters, you'd call it a "tower" too. The confusing thing is that most PRR towers were both interlocking stations and block stations. There were relatively few that were only one or the other. A block station controlled a block of track that stretched from here (the block station you're standing in at the moment) to the next block station. The next block station may be an interlocking station too, but it does not have to be. You, and the guy (block operator) in the next block station were responsible for that block, who was using it at what time, etc., and for maintaining the your block sheet, the record of train movements. You were also responsible for reporting back to the dispatcher and apprising him of all movements, problems, etc. Nowadays, dispatchers are often the ones controlling train movements directly, but in the not too distant past, they controlled via the block operators. Dispatchers kept their own sheet, each train's passing time listed under the name of the block station it passed; thus, they had to know what's going on based on a string of numbers (times). Possibly adding confusion, block stations could also be remotely controlled. This means, just like in a remotely controlled interlocking, there would not be any physical building at that location (besides perhaps a relay shed). One example of this is WOOD block station on the Cumberland Valley Branch, which was remotely controlled from PENROAD, which was a physical building. Locations such as this may be needed for added train control. Block stations could also be temporary. One example is LEAMAN, near the Strasburg RR connection, which would be opened and closed as necessary, by train order. Why was this useful? The stretch from CORK on the west to PARK on the east was long (24 miles), and having an intermediate location to switch trains back over to their "normal" track was handy while one of the tracks was out for maintenance, etc. Thus, if #1 track were out for track work, a westbound at PARK would not have to wait 25-30 minutes for an eastbound from CORK to clear the entire CORK--PARK block; they could meet halfway, at LEAMAN. Without getting into too much additional detail, let me do just a bit more compare and contrast for you. If we have interlocking stations, why do they need to be block stations too? 1. Someone still has to maintain the block sheet. 2. Someone still must be in control of the train, at least officially. In later years, of course, one could be in continuous contact (theoretically, at least) with the train, either by trainphone or radio or what have you. 3. If, or actually, _when_ it becomes necessary to send a train down "the wrong main", i.e. on a track not signalled for that direction, it is done using Manual Block, and then the full Block Station capabilities of that operator come into use. 4. If the signal system were to go down, you revert back to Manual Block, and again, you use full block station capabilities. Why isn't every interlocking station a block station? Wasn't always necessary. For example, you may have a block station at A and another one at C, say 10 miles away, both PRR-owned and -controlled. Yet, a mile or 2 from A, some foreign railroad FRR may cross at location B. It may not be useful to control that mile or two separately, but because of the traffic on FRR, B may need to be an interlocking, and may in fact have a tower (interlocking station) there. So PRR might decide not to spend any extra money, to have the block run from A to C, and so B is merely an interlocking and interlocking station in the middle of the A--C block. Block-Limit Stations: Finally, there are these things. These were named location with a special yellow-red sign. (Technically, this sign (colloquial meaning) was a Signal (by RR definition).) They are locations which are manually controlled by the manual block operator (or now, dispatcher). There is no physical control of the train, of course. Trains are required to "report by" (i.e, report they've passed) these locations (unless instructed not to), and they are locations explicitly created for the purpose of controlling the points between which a train has rights to move. Why not simply control by milepost number? Good question. A number of western roads do just that, and more recently written rules actually allow for control between any 2 clearly identifiable locations. So in such a case, a track warrant could be issued as being effective between "the 3rd McDonalds from Grangerville to Ed's farm in Missouri Bluffs", so long as the locations are understood clearly by both parties. Being more explicit may be safer, especially the more trains you have on a given branch at one time. This makes for a very interesting debate, of course. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:35:02 -0500 From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Yes, the current Allegheny Valley Railroad does keep a GP10 near this > location. Their engine house is actually in Oakmont. Thank you! I didn't know where the engine house was, or even that they had one. Where is it located there? Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:52:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower In a message dated 01/17/2000 3:35:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, patrick@dementia.org writes: << Thank you! I didn't know where the engine house was, or even that they had one. Where is it located there? >> There is a left hand (traveling north) industrial spur which curves through a combination business/residential area. This eventually leads to an old factory. This is the engine house. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:33:58 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Prepub deal on Jerry Taylor's book Gentlemen (and ladies): I wanted to pass on the infor I just received via flyer from IU Press. They are offering a special prepublication deal on A SAMPLING OF PENN CENTRAL, by former NYC GM Jerry Taylor. Price on release--expected for June, 2000--will be 59.95; however, an order by Feb. 10 gets you a copy for 30% off, or 41.95 (plus $5 S&H--Indiana residents add 5% sales tax). Contact them at "iupress.indiana.edu" 800-842-6796, or at 601 N. Morton St., Bloomington, In. 47404-3797. The book is clothbound, 448 pp, 211 b&w photos, 4 maps. If you are at all interested in how the PC merger impacted the former PRR and NYC in what was PC's "Southern region," you will love this book. Although he left the railroad (to run the LI) in 1968, prior to the merger's consumation, he returned frequently to photograph and keep tabs on the operation. Incidentally, this was a book not originally intended for public consumption, but written for insiders. Richard Wallis (unpaid shill for the publisher) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don R. Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN MAGS on Ebay Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:46:34 -0600 Greetings: To those looking for back issues of RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN magazines. There are 7 collections listed on Ebay, each being a different year. Follow the URL: http://pages.ebay.com/search/items/search.html and type "oldtim" in the SELLERS search area. Unfortunately these are not mine, nor am I in the market for same at this time. Good Luck, Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:24:33 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] I1sa 4592 Walter and the list, I1sa 4592 was built by Baldwin in September 1923. She was converted to I1sa in May, 1936 and dropped from the roster in February 1952. My information comes from page 353 of Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster. Doug walter mcwilliams wrote: > I have a good foto of I1sa 4592 taking on coal at Starbrick PA. Can anyone > give me some back round on this decapod? Also, does anyone have anyother > fotos, drawings etc of the facilities in and around Starbrick? > Thanks Walt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:46:47 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] K4s engines with 130P75 tenders, continued Hello list, I finally went through my K4s database and found the following engines had, at some point in their careers, 130P75 tenders. This makes them good matches (for the most part, I'll deal with the exceptions later in this post) for the currently produced Bowser K4s. Be aware that most have the modernized front ends (relocated headlight and generator, drop coupler pilot, and modern markers on smokebox only). If you're interested in the configuration of a particular engine, please email me. I will cheerfully share what I know. Note that this list is by no means comprehensive; there are still some 85 or so K4s engines that I haven't seen photographs of. For some engines, only one photograph exists, and PRR was notorious for tender swapping. Keyser wrote that when the 130F82s were converted to 130P75s, the proportion was roughly 25 to M1 engines and 75 or so to K4s engines. Anyway, here goes. The engines are listed in order of their construction. 5022, 612, 2445, 830 (not a good choice after 1955; the 130P75 she was retired with has curved coal boards), 1453, 646, 3678, 1551, 1588, 1361, 3673, 3775, 3747, 3751, 3752, 3765, 3770, 3802, 3847, 3849, 3850, 3880, 5367, 5399, 5412, 5454, 5471, 5473 (not a good match, as her tender had curved coal boards; when retired, her tender went to the 830), 5494. This should help you if you're planning on constructing a Bowser model. My standard admonishment to add the mechanical lubricator applies here. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70FBR Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:15:48 -0800 Walt--Can only help with question #3: try Kadee 36" wheels. I have used these with success in ECW trucks. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [NEModelers] Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:47:03 -0800 Greg--Thanks for the info. But the plot thickens on the F3 (F5) F7 transition. > >Yes, but the F-5 was identical to the F-7 externally, but the traction motors >were the same as the F-3 while the generator had been upgraded. However on >the PRR the 36" diameter dynamic brake fan was paired with the streamlined >number boars. If you have Robert McGonigal's "Heart of the Pennsylvania Railroad", on page 62 there is a Don Wood photo from December 1955 looking down toward an approaching F with small number boards and a dynamic brake fan. The angle of the shot does not permit the engine number to show. This sure supports the idea that some F7's (F5?) had small number boards. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:29:51 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secret... Stephen Hoxie wrote: > Greg--Thanks for the info. But the plot thickens on the F3 (F5) F7 > transition. > > > >Yes, but the F-5 was identical to the F-7 externally, but the > traction motors > >were the same as the F-3 while the generator had been upgraded. > However on > >the PRR the 36" diameter dynamic brake fan was paired with the > streamlined > >number boars. > > If you have Robert McGonigal's "Heart of the Pennsylvania Railroad", > on page 62 there is a Don Wood photo from December 1955 looking down > toward an approaching F with small number boards and a dynamic brake > fan. The angle of the shot does not permit the engine number to show. > This sure supports the idea that some F7's (F5?) had small number > boards. Greetings to Steve and the List: Be careful about using small numberboards as a spotting feature. An old copy of X2200 South (Jan 1970) shows an atypical situation -- PRR FP7 4359 with an F3-style nose having small numberboards. No explanation in the caption, perhaps it was a wreck repair. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Psalm 100:1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:10:20 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secret... On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Dan Cupper wrote: > Be careful about using small numberboards as a spotting feature. An old > copy of X2200 South (Jan 1970) shows an atypical situation -- PRR FP7 4359 > with an F3-style nose having small numberboards. No explanation in the > caption, perhaps it was a wreck repair. One of the books mentions that one of the ex-GN electrics had 2 EMD FT noses and they were reused. That may have where one was reused. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secret... Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:12:54 -0800 Dan Cupper wrote: > >Be careful about using small numberboards as a spotting feature. An old >copy of X2200 South (Jan 1970) shows an atypical situation -- PRR FP7 4359 >with an F3-style nose having small numberboards. No explanation in the >caption, perhaps it was a wreck repair. > Hi, Dan--PDY Vol 1 shows this same FP7, at that time 9859, on page 142 with the small numberboards. The caption (we all trust those, don't we?) explains that the engine was in a wreck, then repaired with the cab from one of the Great Northern electrics that the PRR purchased. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:29:52 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations Several weeks ago Mike Bezilla commented that several Sheffield Farms milk cars shuttled between Philadelphia and the Tyrone/Altoona in the '50's Last night I was reading the 1945 CT1000 in aid of something else, and noted 4 entries for Sheffield Farms Co., Inc.: Mill Hall Bald Eagle Branch Howard Bald Eagle Branch Bellefonte Bellefonte Branch Rising Springs Bellefonte Branch Also saw but didn't note a couple of entries for another dairy company on the Wilkes-Barre Division. There may well be others (other companies, other locations) in central Pa., but as I said, I was looking for something else. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:42:38 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower Mark: thanks for the info which clarifies a muddy situation for me. Now if I can just find pictures of the block stations to match the known locations here on Delmarva some of which I now suspect were likely phone booths . The CASSATT interlocking, which controls the moveable bridge over the Pocokoke River still exists with photos on the web at http://www.esva.net/~trains/pics/cassatt-pocomoke.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:12:17 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Cabin Cars There has been a recent thread regarding the lack of available wooden cabin cars, and the difficulty of assembling those that are available. I have corresponded with the laserKit folks at American Model Builders who are considering a N-6 a/b in the future (next year?) If there is enough interest, they might move it up. They also would listen to any suggestions regarding design. Please let me know directly (jlmcdaniel@esva.net) if you are interested in this kit idea. I assume that a kit would be about $34.00 like the other cabooses they offer. I need details to see if this is feasable: How many N6a would you be likely to buy? How many N6b ? Pre-painted lettered or not? What lettering/paint styles/eras would you like to see produced? (Please be specific as I don't "read" all the SPF abreviations like CK, PK, NK, etc. that I have seen in some painting posts.) Thanks in advance for the input. I'll report back after suitable data collection. JimMcDaniel, lost in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:46:38 EST Subject: [PRR] NEW F-units..was.. I' ve kept this a secrete... Stu and all, In context: << Greg, Since you have one of the new Highliners in your hot little hands, maybe you can address whether the kit addresses some of the small production variations that existed over time. Examples would be: Do they offer both round and square windows for the rear door?>> Rear door, square window. <> Stu, what I think you may be referencing is the corners of the doors themselves. The windows in the side door always had a radii's in the corners, what was different was the door itself. The early doors had square corners (until 3/50 per Ed Hawkins) and after that the doors became what I have always referred to as "airplane doors" with round corners. The Kit comes with square corners, but as I stated in my original post, "But some work will be required to create all the variations..." <> Yes, This change came in late 1949 and the lip will be attached to the window glass, per Paul. << Do they offer the different sand hatch covers?>> Yes, and nicely detailed I might add. <> Unfortunately, no. This is always a bugger isn't it! I just went through it with my PA/B set. I will share a painless way to do this without scribing a scratch in the nose in the PA/B article. << Stuart >> Like I have said I am no expert on the F-unit subject, but I started in-depth research on them about 8 months ago. I started by digging out my old Mainline Modelers from the very early 80's, an "absolute must have" for the avid F Unit guy and still available as back issues. Then recently I purchased the new Jeff Wilson/Kalmbach Publishing book, F UNITS The Diesel that Did It, this is a must have book. I had an opportunity to attend Ed Hawkins F Unit Seminar at the Sunshine Meet In Naperville this past fall. So my skills are good and getting better and I want to do a spread sheet on my favorite roads F Units as many of the production date/phase changes are arbitrary. Again, Jim Six and I have both talked about these new F Units and they both have their strong points and I wish not to play up their shortcomings. We have finally been handed beautiful F Units and it started last spring. My engine facilities will harbor both, so I am stepping to the plate... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:12:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Keith B. Thompson - Sun" Subject: [PRR] Impedance bridges Hi, In some photos of electrified track I've seen these "boxes" between the rails, usualy (always?) in pairs. In a book I just received there is a photo showing various parts of electrified track and catenary and it labels these boxes as Impedance bridges. It does not describe what they do or where and when they were used. Can anyone send me any information on these devices? They look like pretty neet details to add to my trackwork. Thanks, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:41:27 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower --- Mark Bej wrote: > James L. McDaniel scribit: > > > > For us neophytes: what is the difference between > an interlocking and a > > block station, and is there further difference in > a manual block > > station? > > I'll take a stab at answering this and invite any > and all comments, > First off, let me start from the colloquial word > "tower". > Next, let's get 2 basic things in: > > Interlocking: > > Station: > > OK, here we go: > > Interlocking Station: > this is a tower (or cabin, or room, or dungeon, or > Some Sort of Structure) Odd that I should find this in the mail this morning, when just last night I had spent entirely too much time in the 1945 CT1000 trying to answer the question "Just how often _did_ PRR refer to a 'cabin'?" I found only two "cabins", 1 each on the Ft. Wayne and Logansport Divisions. However each of those divisions mentioned 14 or 15 "Towers". Since the little slip of paper in my wallet doesn't record everything I found, the rest is from memory. The New York Division was rather fond of "Interlocking Station" (in the vicinity of Penn Station) and "Interlocking - Block Station" (elsewhere). The Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions didn't like to talk about towers/cabins/block stations/whatever at all. The Eastern Division mentioned a lot of "Interlocking Tower" and one "Interlocking Plant". Moving well into the Lines West, I found references to "Telegraph Office", "Interlocking Station", "Block Office", "Tower", and "Interlocking - Block Station". It seemed that each division had its own idea(s) about what to call things. I noted a couple of junctions where the X Division mentioned "AX Tower", while the Y Division called it "AX Interlocking" (or something else). All told, it seems that in 1945, the folks preparing the CT1000 used the term "tower" about as often as all the rest of the terms taken together. Trusting that you all have now been sufficiently bored, and in the knowledge that I had resolved to _not_ post until I saw the exposition, I remain, ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:34:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Impedance bridges They're usually referred to as "impedance bonds," in my experience, although perhaps the collection of two are collectively referred to as a "bridge." These are used at boundaries between track circuits (e.g. signal blocks, or grade crossing protection circuits) to carry the traction return current (AC or DC) past the insulated rail joints; the inductance of the impedance bonds is sufficient to suppress the AC signals used to detect the trains, and the currents for cab signals where used. I am sure there are more complex explanations, but that should suffice for the simple track circuits in use years ago. Today there are more sophisticated systems in use, such as "overlay" circuits; these may not even need insulated rail joints, does anybody have more information? John Bobsin On 18 Jan 00, at 11:12, Keith B. Thompson - Sun wrote: Date sent: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:12:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Keith B. Thompson - Sun" To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Impedance bridges > > Hi, > > In some photos of electrified track I've seen > these "boxes" between the rails, usualy (always?) > in pairs. In a book I just received there is a > photo showing various parts of electrified track > and catenary and it labels these boxes as Impedance > bridges. It does not describe what they do or where > and when they were used. Can anyone send me any > information on these devices? They look like pretty > neet details to add to my trackwork. > > Thanks, > kbt > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secret... Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:24:52 -0500 In PDY 1, p.142 there's a great color shot of this unit with its old number 9859, and the caption has the whole story. It was wrecked, and the PRR used one of the noses from the GN Y1a (the streamlined electric that was cannibalized for parts for the FF2's) to rebuild it. I think they used the other nose on an E-unit but I can't swear to that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Cupper" To: "Stephen Hoxie" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 12:29 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secret... > Stephen Hoxie wrote: > > > Greg--Thanks for the info. But the plot thickens on the F3 (F5) F7 > > transition. > > > > > >Yes, but the F-5 was identical to the F-7 externally, but the > > traction motors > > >were the same as the F-3 while the generator had been upgraded. > > However on > > >the PRR the 36" diameter dynamic brake fan was paired with the > > streamlined > > >number boars. > > > > If you have Robert McGonigal's "Heart of the Pennsylvania Railroad", > > on page 62 there is a Don Wood photo from December 1955 looking down > > toward an approaching F with small number boards and a dynamic brake > > fan. The angle of the shot does not permit the engine number to show. > > This sure supports the idea that some F7's (F5?) had small number > > boards. > > Greetings to Steve and the List: > > Be careful about using small numberboards as a spotting feature. An old > copy of X2200 South (Jan 1970) shows an atypical situation -- PRR FP7 4359 > with an F3-style nose having small numberboards. No explanation in the > caption, perhaps it was a wreck repair. > > Dan > > > Dan Cupper > cupper@mciworld.com > Psalm 100:1 > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [NEModelers] Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:37:44 -0500 Some PRR F7's did have the small number boards, having been ordered this way by the railroad. See PDY 1, p.48. There were also F3's delivered with low speed gearing as class EH-15 for helper service which were rebuilt & re-geared to F7 specs while retaining their small number boards and the F3 dynamic brake "slots" (p.79, same book). Hope this helps... Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hoxie" To: ; Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [NEModelers] Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secrete... > Greg--Thanks for the info. But the plot thickens on the F3 (F5) F7 > transition. > > > >Yes, but the F-5 was identical to the F-7 externally, but the > traction motors > >were the same as the F-3 while the generator had been upgraded. > However on > >the PRR the 36" diameter dynamic brake fan was paired with the > streamlined > >number boars. > > If you have Robert McGonigal's "Heart of the Pennsylvania Railroad", > on page 62 there is a Don Wood photo from December 1955 looking down > toward an approaching F with small number boards and a dynamic brake > fan. The angle of the shot does not permit the engine number to show. > This sure supports the idea that some F7's (F5?) had small number > boards. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:35:11 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations Greetings to Bob and the group, Since you mentioned the Bald Eagle Branch, I'll mention the Dairymens League (sp?), another milk company. I think they are listed in the 1923 CT 1000 as having spot in Mill Hall. It was located close to the PRR's Water Street grade crossing in Mill Hall. If I'm reading the old Sanborn maps correctly, it appears that the building is still standing. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 06:29 AM 01/18/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Several weeks ago Mike Bezilla commented that several >Sheffield Farms milk cars shuttled between >Philadelphia and the Tyrone/Altoona in the '50's > >Last night I was reading the 1945 CT1000 in aid of >something else, and noted 4 entries for Sheffield >Farms Co., Inc.: > >Mill Hall Bald Eagle Branch >Howard Bald Eagle Branch >Bellefonte Bellefonte Branch >Rising Springs Bellefonte Branch > >Also saw but didn't note a couple of entries for >another dairy company on the Wilkes-Barre Division. > >There may well be others (other companies, other >locations) in central Pa., but as I said, I was >looking for something else. > > > > >===== >Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] P-70FBR Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:51:20 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BF61D4.3ED3EB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug, Oh my gosh! Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passanger Equipment Plan = and Photobook (N.J. International, 1984), although listing these coaches = having been equiped with 2D-P5 (Pennsy) and 2E-P5, 2E-P6, and 2E-P6A = (Commonwealth), shows five pics (four with arch roofs and one with = clerestory roof) ALL with Commonwealth trucks. Rather than rely on my = questionable abilities with glue, I believe I will follow your (Doug = Kisala's) advice and buy a couple of sets of Roundhouse Commonwealth = trucks and replace the wheelsets. I also replace stock wheelsets with = aftermarket, usually Kadee. And to think I had the answer to my question = at the tip of my fingers. .=20 Regarding the brakewheel, the instructions call for ,"The brake wheel is = mounted on the end of the car's upper left side at the end nearest the = brake cylinder". Ok, fine. This places the brake wheel on the end whose = side's do not have the circular windows. But one of the pics shows = (rather poorly) that that location is incorrect (no brakewheel) and = another shows what could be chain and associated gear for the brake = wheel (break wheel and housing are not visible) at that location. Oh = what is a modeler to do? I still need help with the selection for the 'correct' interior colors. Thanks again, Walt Prusick =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BF61D4.3ED3EB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Doug,
Oh my gosh! Pennsylvania = Railroad=20 Heavyweight Passanger Equipment Plan and Photobook (N.J. = International,=20 1984), although listing these coaches having been equiped with 2D-P5 = (Pennsy)=20 and 2E-P5, 2E-P6, and 2E-P6A (Commonwealth), shows five pics (four with = arch=20 roofs and one with clerestory roof) ALL with Commonwealth trucks. Rather = than=20 rely on my questionable abilities with glue, I believe I will = follow your=20 (Doug Kisala's) advice and buy a couple of sets of Roundhouse = Commonwealth=20 trucks and replace the wheelsets. I also replace stock wheelsets with=20 aftermarket, usually Kadee. And to think I had the answer to my question = at the=20 tip of my fingers. <sigh>. 
 
Regarding the brakewheel, the = instructions call for=20 ,"The brake wheel is mounted on the end of the car's upper left side at = the end=20 nearest the brake cylinder". Ok, fine. This places the brake wheel = on the=20 end whose side's do not have the circular windows. But one of the = pics=20 shows (rather poorly) that that location is incorrect (no brakewheel) = and=20 another shows what could be chain and associated gear for the = brake=20 wheel (break wheel and housing are not visible) at that location. Oh = what is a=20 modeler to do?
 
I still need help with the selection = for the=20 'correct' interior colors.
 
Thanks again,
Walt Prusick
 
------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BF61D4.3ED3EB60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:57:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations Does anyone know where I might be able to get hold of a CT1000 for the entire Pennsylvania Railroad at a reasonable price? I am researching a book on the Pennsy and the information it contains would be helpful in my research. My mailing address is: James Mancuso 56B South Main Street Perry, NY 14530 e-mail GenJim833@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:58:47 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Cars James and the list, I'd be interested in three N6b cabin cars. I'd prefer to supply my own trucks, couplers, and decals; I'm assuming the kits will come without these items. Doug "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > There has been a recent thread regarding the lack of available wooden > cabin cars, and the difficulty of assembling those that are available. > > I have corresponded with the laserKit folks at American Model Builders > who are considering a N-6 a/b in the future (next year?) If there is > enough interest, they might move it up. They also would listen to any > suggestions regarding design. > > Please let me know directly (jlmcdaniel@esva.net) if you are interested > in this kit idea. I assume that a kit would be about $34.00 like the > other cabooses they offer. > > I need details to see if this is feasable: > > How many N6a would you be likely to buy? > How many N6b ? > Pre-painted lettered or not? > What lettering/paint styles/eras would you like to see produced? > (Please be specific as I don't "read" all the SPF abreviations like CK, > PK, NK, etc. that I have seen in some painting posts.) > > Thanks in advance for the input. I'll report back after suitable data > collection. > > JimMcDaniel, lost in Delmarva > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:02:21 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secret... Dan and the list, I don't own a copy of Morning Sun's Pennsy Diesel Years I, but what happened appears to have been this. I remember this from when I borrowed the book through interlibrary loan. The FP7 was damaged in a wreck. PRR needed a new nose for the unit, and found one from the ex-GN electrics purchased in 1957. The one streamlined unit had FT noses grafted on; it never ran for the PRR and was being used for parts. PRR took the FT nose with small number boards from the electric's carbody and grafted it on to the FP7 carbody. Only on the PRR..... Doug Dan Cupper wrote: > Stephen Hoxie wrote: > > > Greg--Thanks for the info. But the plot thickens on the F3 (F5) F7 > > transition. > > > > > >Yes, but the F-5 was identical to the F-7 externally, but the > > traction motors > > >were the same as the F-3 while the generator had been upgraded. > > However on > > >the PRR the 36" diameter dynamic brake fan was paired with the > > streamlined > > >number boars. > > > > If you have Robert McGonigal's "Heart of the Pennsylvania Railroad", > > on page 62 there is a Don Wood photo from December 1955 looking down > > toward an approaching F with small number boards and a dynamic brake > > fan. The angle of the shot does not permit the engine number to show. > > This sure supports the idea that some F7's (F5?) had small number > > boards. > > Greetings to Steve and the List: > > Be careful about using small numberboards as a spotting feature. An old > copy of X2200 South (Jan 1970) shows an atypical situation -- PRR FP7 4359 > with an F3-style nose having small numberboards. No explanation in the > caption, perhaps it was a wreck repair. > > Dan > > Dan Cupper > cupper@mciworld.com > Psalm 100:1 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "walter mcwilliams" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:10:56 -0500 The Dairymens League also had a bldg in Union City on the Phill and Erie main -----Original Message----- From: Drew McGhee To: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations >Greetings to Bob and the group, > >Since you mentioned the Bald Eagle Branch, I'll mention the Dairymens >League (sp?), another milk company. I think they are listed in the 1923 CT >1000 as having spot in Mill Hall. It was located close to the PRR's Water >Street grade crossing in Mill Hall. If I'm reading the old Sanborn maps >correctly, it appears that the building is still standing. > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA >drm6@psu.edu >http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > > >At 06:29 AM 01/18/2000 -0800, you wrote: >>Several weeks ago Mike Bezilla commented that several >>Sheffield Farms milk cars shuttled between >>Philadelphia and the Tyrone/Altoona in the '50's >> >>Last night I was reading the 1945 CT1000 in aid of >>something else, and noted 4 entries for Sheffield >>Farms Co., Inc.: >> >>Mill Hall Bald Eagle Branch >>Howard Bald Eagle Branch >>Bellefonte Bellefonte Branch >>Rising Springs Bellefonte Branch >> >>Also saw but didn't note a couple of entries for >>another dairy company on the Wilkes-Barre Division. >> >>There may well be others (other companies, other >>locations) in central Pa., but as I said, I was >>looking for something else. >> >> >> >> >>===== >>Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] NEW Transition F units..was..I've kept this a secret... Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:11:30 -0800 Greg and all-- Further research in my small library has revealed two more photos of F units which show both F3 and F7 characteristics; both are in "PENNSYLVANIA: Standard Railroad of the World" by Plant and Yanosey. Both have dynamic brake fans and small number boards; they also have door stripes denoting special gearing for helper service. 9691 on page 105; 9693 on page 118. For us as SPF's, it probably doesn't matter much if an engine is an F3, F5, or F7; we know them as EF15, EF15a, and EH15. And the steam modeler's rule of working from a photo applies to F's, too. Do all diesels look alike? Absolutely not--this is the PRR! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:10:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations Here is a list (incomplete, I am sure) of milk locations on the PRR, that we have turnd up in the 1950s industry database project mentioned recently. I suspect that the West Newark location was a receiver and the others were shippers -- tho I cannot prove this. Lee Rainey 6006 Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. West Newark NJ Sheffield Farms Co. Avon-by-the-Sea NJ Sheffield Farms Co. West End NJ Borden Creamery Troy PA Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Cedar Ledge PA Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Light Street PA Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Middleburg PA Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Milton PA Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Rising Springs PA Sheffield Farms Co. Bellefonte PA Sheffield Farms Co. Canton PA Sheffield Farms Co. Mill Hall PA Sheffield Farms Co. Rising Springs PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:27:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations In a message dated 1/18/2000 2:08:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, GenJim833@aol.com writes: << Does anyone know where I might be able to get hold of a CT1000 for the entire Pennsylvania Railroad at a reasonable price? I am researching a book on the Pennsy and the information it contains would be helpful in my research. My mailing address is: >> Jim -- I found a CT1000E on Bibliofind recently. The Hagley Museum in Wilmington has several editions of the CT1000 in their holdings. (Alas, that is not too conveniently located for either you or me!) Lee Rainey 6006 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 02:27:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secret... Dan and all, You are correct, 4359 was involve in an accident and had the nose replace with an FT nose from one of the Y class electrics recycled from Great Northern. This would make an interesting conversion from the ATLAS/CON COR model. Now I am going to have to research the date of the accident to see whether this will become my FP-7 I model. Greg Martin In a message Dan Cupper (@mciworld.com) writes: << Greetings to Steve and the List: Be careful about using small numberboards as a spotting feature. An old copy of X2200 South (Jan 1970) shows an atypical situation -- PRR FP7 4359 with an F3-style nose having small numberboards. No explanation in the caption, perhaps it was a wreck repair. Dan Dan Cupper >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 06:41:59 -0500 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: [PRR] CT1000 Greetings to the list- With all the talk about CT1000 on this list recently, it begs the question: does anybody know roughly how many are in circulation? If there is a small number, might somebody among us consider creating and marketing a reprint? Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:00:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] NEW Transition F units..was..I've kept this a secret... In a message dated 1/18/00 9:21:35 PM Mountain Standard Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << For us as SPF's, it probably doesn't matter much if an engine is an F3, F5, or F7; we know them as EF15, EF15a, and EH15. And the steam modeler's rule of working from a photo applies to F's, too. Do all diesels look alike? Absolutely not--this is the PRR! >> This is absolutely true! In addition, diesels change over time. So, it is advisable to truy to have photos of the unit you are modeling in the era you are modeling. Especially with F-units. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] CT1000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:27:33 -0500 Jeff: It is uncertian on how many were originally published and more importantly, how many have survived over the years. The current availability and rareness can be see in the price; the range of prices is about $20-$50 apiece. It would also depend on the condition and on whether the CT 1000 covers the entire system or not. I think that if one looks hard enough at trainshows and online auctions like Ebay, one can find a copy within a few months or so. It seems that once a month or so, a least one CT 1000 shows up on Ebay. I got mine from Ebay a few months ago for about $30 dollars. It took me a few months of looking before I came across one that matched what I was looking for. I don't think that these documents will ever be republished but my be posted on the web for downloading. I hope that this information helps you. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Knorek [mailto:jknorek@mail.msen.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 6:42 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] CT1000 Greetings to the list- With all the talk about CT1000 on this list recently, it begs the question: does anybody know roughly how many are in circulation? If there is a small number, might somebody among us consider creating and marketing a reprint? Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:16:18 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70FBR Walt asked > Dear list, Currently working on three P-70FBR's ( less said of the >trails and tribulations the better) and I would appreciate answers to the >following questions: 1. What is the correct color scheme for the >interiors? (Seats, floors, walls, ect.) Walt, the Keystone has a passenger car interior painting diagram from 194 p62, vol 29, number 3 fall 96)1..the P-70FBRs aren't listed, but this may give you some ideas: Seats - green or diagonal stripe brown plush metal parts - brown wood - mahogony floors - battleship green linoleum walls - baseboard & heater, brown, bulkhead and passageway - drab fascia and parcel rack - tan between window sill and fascia - wood rose above fascia - parchment white ceiling - parchment white mens saloon and lav - walls grey womens saloon and lav - walls dark rose I have left out a number of the details sucha s red stripes, red doors etc. as the diagram is really the best source, and for your models, you may not care to get into such detail Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:16:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 I think the systemwide CT1000 is one example of a document that ought to be reprinted, especially for historical research purposes. I know of a guy in Maryland who did reproductions of various B&O operating documents for fans and historians of that railroad and I see no reason why the same should not be done for the Pennsy. I have several reprints of Pennsy timetables in my collection and that is an example. Also Freight schedule books and other hard to find documents are worthy of reprinting. I would be willing to settle for a reprint if that will give me the information I need for my research. James Mancuso Perry, NY 14530 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:22:10 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser T1 Sam, > I am going to start my Bowser T1 kit pretty soon and would like some >input on a few items. 1. Number boards, any body make ones that I could >back light? No but some clear plastic can be cut to size pretty easily > 2. If I try to make it non-articulated how big of a radius will I >need to still run it, also has anybody tried this and what method have >you used to make the 2 sets of drivers stationary? I was going to try to >make a template from sheet brass to tie them together?? Thanks in >advance Sam Well, I've been trying to do the major remodel - that is a whole new chassis to remove the holes from the top of the loco! After more than a year, I'm part of the way there. Of course the other goal was to get rid of those Bowser motors, so I have NWSL gear towers and a couple of can motors. Now, with the temporary demise of Alco Products (lets hope its only temporary) you can't get the Helix Humber for the T-1...If you could, I would suggest replacing the bottom plates of the two chassis with a single solid piece (brass). Of course you can do that with the Bowser motors too. Minimum radius, from my not too precise experimentation is going to be around 36", at least. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:41:49 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations Lee, Thanks for the list. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 12:10 AM 01/19/2000 EST, LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: >Here is a list (incomplete, I am sure) of milk locations on the PRR, that we >have turnd up in the 1950s industry database project mentioned recently. I >suspect that the West Newark location was a receiver and the others were >shippers -- tho I cannot prove this. > >Lee Rainey 6006 > > >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. West Newark NJ >Sheffield Farms Co. Avon-by-the-Sea NJ >Sheffield Farms Co. West End NJ >Borden Creamery Troy PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Cedar Ledge PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Light Street PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Middleburg PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Milton PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Rising Springs PA >Sheffield Farms Co. Bellefonte PA >Sheffield Farms Co. Canton PA >Sheffield Farms Co. Mill Hall PA >Sheffield Farms Co. Rising Springs PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser T1 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:22:07 -0500 Just a thought on this subject. Not sure if it would work and you'd be taking a risk at permanently damaging one or two sets of drivers. What about converting some of the drivers into blind drivers. This way you could still eliminate the articulated joint but might be able to reduce the minimum radius. Also depending on which set of the rear drivers you remove the wheel flange from you could further decrease the minimum radius. i.e. remove the flange on the fourth set of drivers versus the third and you should result with a tighter turning circle. Of course it won't look great on curves (but neither does the articulated joint) and it may create derailing problems but its an idea and might just allow those with smaller layouts to operate the mighty T-1...the most handsome steam engine ever built! Any thoughts supporting or contrary? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 9:22 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser T1 Sam, > I am going to start my Bowser T1 kit pretty soon and would like some >input on a few items. 1. Number boards, any body make ones that I could >back light? No but some clear plastic can be cut to size pretty easily > 2. If I try to make it non-articulated how big of a radius will I >need to still run it, also has anybody tried this and what method have >you used to make the 2 sets of drivers stationary? I was going to try to >make a template from sheet brass to tie them together?? Thanks in >advance Sam Well, I've been trying to do the major remodel - that is a whole new chassis to remove the holes from the top of the loco! After more than a year, I'm part of the way there. Of course the other goal was to get rid of those Bowser motors, so I have NWSL gear towers and a couple of can motors. Now, with the temporary demise of Alco Products (lets hope its only temporary) you can't get the Helix Humber for the T-1...If you could, I would suggest replacing the bottom plates of the two chassis with a single solid piece (brass). Of course you can do that with the Bowser motors too. Minimum radius, from my not too precise experimentation is going to be around 36", at least. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:42:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 In a message dated 1/19/2000 6:28:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, GenJim833@aol.com writes: << I think the systemwide CT1000 is one example of a document that ought to be reprinted, especially for historical research purposes. . . . Also Freight schedule books and other hard to find documents are worthy of reprinting. I would be willing to settle for a reprint if that will give me the information I need for my research. >> Ditto here! I would snap up reprints of such documents in a nanosecond. Lee Rainey 6006 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:57:48 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: [PRR] (Fwd) rare railroad books for sale (NMRA library) ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: VR Bass To: bigtrains,slimrails,1:20.3,sslivesteam,livesteamers,rrresearch Subject: rare railroad books for sale (NMRA library) Date sent: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:12:52 -0700 Fellow railroad fans, The NMRA Library has just posted a new rare books list on the library web page. These are books from the library's duplicate materials which are of special interest -- limited editions, author signed copies, etc. All sales of duplicate materials benefit the library, a resource for all railroad modelers and railfans. To view the rare books list, or any of the duplicate materials for sale, go to http://www.nmra.org/library and choose "Duplicate Book Sales". If you have never used the NMRA library for research, be sure to look around at the library's pages to see how you can use its vast railroad and modeling collection to help you. ------- End of forwarded message ------- Roger Roger Hensley 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://cid.railfan.net ====================================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] State College-Lemont Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:20:04 EST Hello to All, Does anyone have any information on the routing of track off of the Bald Eagle Branch into the State College-Lemont-Bellefonte area. My layout is of a ficticious PRR Branch in that area and I need the info so that I may know where to make junctions with the State College area lines. My line is planned from between Shawnee and Lewistown to go north west to Port Matilda. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks, Matt Sichel ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:52:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70FBR Interior painting ideas All... In getting additional ideas for painting the interiors of passenger equipment, I have found color magazine ads from the period to be a great source / starting point for painting passenger car interiors. O.K.....so there not exactly "color correct" ( just look at the DGLE and Tuscan / Maroon of the train itself in the same ads) but you will find very useful details like.... Upholstery, carpet, and window shade patterns. Fixtures (lights, mirrors, tables, trim styles, etc.) "Approximate" color palette and usage IMHO, these ads (while a graphic depiction) are accurate in their content. Certainly PRRs Public Relations Dept. would not have producing national / local advertisement that inaccurately represented their product / service and that did not portray the most modern image to the public. (O.K., lets the bullets fly!) I don't have a website yet, so if someone would be willing to host my (and hopefully other contributors) pictures, I will be glad to forward scans. Thus far I have ads for...... 1947 P85B Circa 1940 Trailblazer / Jeffersonian Diner Circa 1952 Congressional / Senator Parlor, Coach, Coffee Shop, Dining, Drawing Room cars Regards, Brian Butcher PRRT&HS 5540 Midlothian - VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:51:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] State College-Lemont From: Jerry Britton On 1/19/00 1:20 PM, Matt Sichel (popsichel@hotmail.com) wrote: > Does anyone have any information on the routing of track off of the Bald > Eagle Branch into the State College-Lemont-Bellefonte area. My layout is of > a ficticious PRR Branch in that area and I need the info so that I may know > where to make junctions with the State College area lines. My line is > planned from between Shawnee and Lewistown to go north west to Port Matilda. Start with the "Hobo's Guide to the Pennsy" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/ There are excellent guides to the Bald Eagle Branch and the Bellefonte Branch. Also of note, but not PRR, is the Bellefonte Central. This ore carrier connects to the PRR at Bellefonte, makes a wide sweep around the valley, through the ore pits at Scotia, and went into downtown State College. There was a passenger station on College Avenue where the current Engineering Building resides, across the street from the Old College Diner. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:06:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 The complete CT 1000 is 825 pages. How much would people be willing to pay for a reprint ? One problem I've found with PRR material is that it has a high collector value which tends to keep it expensive if available for sale and once sold it rarely shows up as reprints. The MP 229 forms for example are being reprinted slowly by a member of the Phila. Chapter PRR T&HS for $25 ea. In talking with him he said he has a number of these he intends to do but the work required to get it in a cleaned up form that can be copied takes a long time. As a PRR modeler and owner of a PRR based model railroad I see a market for the following: CT 1000 for industry and trackage mile post info. MP 229 for loco assignments at a given location during a given time period. Freight schedules for the scheduling and makeup of freight traffic for a given location at a given time period. Equiptment rosters showing car numbers , classes ,number of cars and modifications and special equiptment. Any body else have any additions ? Both the PRRT&HS national and Phila. chapter are looking for some additional sources of income to support their activities. Wouldn't this be a good source of info and income for the society ? Are people willing to pay a fair price for the info ? Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:08:27 EST Subject: [PRR] N & W INFO - off topic Check out Index of /imagebase_new/norfolksouthern/ful Searchable data base of 5,000 to 6,000 N&S - N&W and VGN images located on the computer of Virginia Tech, in Blacksburgh Va http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/ will bring you to the browse and search menu for the Virginia Tech Imagebase. If you chose browse, you will get 10-20 thumbnails at a time. There are two collections, one called Norfolk and Western and one called Norfolk Southern. Suprisingly the Norfolk Southern collection seems to have more historically interesting images. Feel free to pass this back to the list server. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:11:34 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Y Me? PRR 2-8-8-2 Hi all, What a can of worms! Some of you may recall the lead in discussion to the question of how to most accurately model an HH-1 from the LifeLike Y-3? As noted, Bob Hundeman of Mainline Modeler claims that #375 had a Y-5 (Y tube) front end. The photo in PP1 clearly date 1943, shows #373 with a Y tube front end, and boiler tube pilot. The photo in Hundeman's article shows #373 in 1946 with the old front end and a footboard pilot...(BTW, the footboard pilots were not a PRR addition...the N&W had plenty of them) Anybody care to bet that sometime between the two photos, #373 swapped front engines with another loco (perhaps #375)?????? As per Gary M., the remaining locos all appear to have had the old front end and footboard pilots. Now I'm really anxious to see how LifeLike handles this Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:13:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Grey MOW cabins was Lettering the N6b Tom V. said: > I also should have said that I have seen no N6 wearing the battleship >gray 1940-1954 MOW scheme but noted that the class was included in a list >on a tracing which referred to MOW colors. Tom, Specifically which classes are documented to have received the grey MOW scheme? Did that scheme include a grey roof, or a black roof? Any chance of scanning in that tracing or telling me where to find it? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:15:19 -0500 Subject: CT1000 -- Was Re: [PRR] State College-Lemont From: Jerry Britton On 1/19/00 2:09 PM, KEMACPRR@aol.com (KEMACPRR@aol.com) wrote: > Jerry a little off subject but don't you have the CT 1000 scanned on the PRR > pages ? I sent you mine about a year ago . Not sure if these people haven't > looked for it there. Yes. All three divisions (East, Central, and West) of the CT1000 for 1945, as well as the East division of the CT1000 for 1923 are available from my "Keystone Crossings" site, as well as on CD-ROM. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:07:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Y Me? PRR 2-8-8-2 Bruce, Very interesting. I have not seen the Mainline Modeler article to see the loco you described and I did not know this info before. Nothing is ever easy when it comes to the Pennsy. Concerning HH-1 #374, as delivered to the Pennsy from the N&W in 1943 it sported the tube pilot also. But 4 years later she has the footboard pilot. Just where did this come from. The Pennsy or N&W? or was it swapped from one of the other Y-3s purchased? I decided to model the #374 in this later time period. The LifeLike model pretty much is right on for this PRR HH-1 number. All I did was stripped the paint and lettering and added the details which it would have recieved. Those PRR type Marker Lights seen on the smoke box front was the most delicate item to model. I cut and formed sheet brass and soldered angled braces to achieve the look. Those details came out pretty good. I filed and sanded the Roanoke Builders plates off too. I then attached the PRR Markers to the Tender deck and gave the Loco a new DGLE Paint job. The familiar Keystone Number plate now hangs on the smokebox also. I decaled the loco and gave it a slight weathering paint job. I replaced the molded coal load with better material. The loco is basically done. I do still need to attach a backup headlight though. The final small detail I may have trouble with is finding a new HH-1 builders plate. Aside from the wrong tender version for a PRR equiped loco and with the proper PRR details added, this is one fantastic looking and operating steamer. Photos to follow ASAP. Bruce, you said you recieved the Undecorated version right? If so, does yours include the PRR Marker lights as well as the Keystone Plate you mentioned earlier? I noticed on mine that the smokebox front has barely visible mold lines where the marker lights will go. It looks like LifeLike has the PRR version all thought out in advance. Just hope they get the tender version correct on the future PRR release..... Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:36:29 -0500 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Annual Reprot Jerry if your interested there is a 1906 Northern Central Annual report available on E-bay at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=238889821 Looks to be in pretty good shape too! mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:23:35 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] N & W INFO - off topic All of the archives of Norfolk Southern and it's remote predecessor lines like N&W, the old NS, and many others were given to the Newman Library at Virginia Tech. They also were given the Hotel Roanoke which is now a conference center. Since the PRR owned about 40% of the N&W this is 40% relevant. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Daytime Passenger Trains Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:20:56 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0823C.2F161980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! Everyone...I have been viewing a number of different Pennsy videos = and I am seeing a daytime passenger train. I see that it features a = number of P85B coaches, so I assume that it is a St.Louis train? If so, = which one ran in daytime? Some of the narrative indicates they are mail = or express trains...not so...not with full diners and coaches. Any help? = ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0823C.2F161980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi! Everyone...I have been viewing a number of = different=20 Pennsy videos and I am seeing a daytime passenger train. I see that it = features=20 a number of P85B coaches, so I assume that it is a St.Louis train? If = so, which=20 one ran in daytime? Some of the narrative indicates they are mail or = express=20 trains...not so...not with full diners and coaches. Any help?=20
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0823C.2F161980-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: CT1000 -- Was Re: [PRR] State College-Lemont Date: Wed, 19 Jan 100 17:19:59 -0500 (EST) Jerry Britton scribit: > > > Jerry a little off subject but don't you have the CT 1000 scanned on the PRR > > pages ? I sent you mine about a year ago . Not sure if these people haven't > > looked for it there. > > Yes. All three divisions (East, Central, and West) of the CT1000 for 1945, > as well as the East division of the CT1000 for 1923 are available from my > "Keystone Crossings" site, as well as on CD-ROM. See > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ And someone else mentioned freight schedules, 2 versions (years) of which are available, one (a bit shorter version) on Jerry's site, one (longer) on mine at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/ -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:22:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] State College-Lemont In a message dated 01/19/2000 1:29:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, popsichel@hotmail.com writes: << Does anyone have any information on the routing of track off of the Bald Eagle Branch into the State College-Lemont-Bellefonte area. My layout is of a ficticious PRR Branch in that area and I need the info so that I may know where to make junctions with the State College area lines. My line is planned from between Shawnee and Lewistown to go north west to Port Matilda. Any and all help is appreciated. >> Junctions on the Bald Eagle Branch Middle Division miles from Tyrone Jct with Main line mp 0.0 Tyrone Passenger Station Jct. Clearfield branch -- East Tyrone mp 1.7 Jct. Snowshoe branch mp 29.5 Jct, Bellefonte branch Milesburg mp 30.8 jct Bellefonte Central mp 33.0 Jct. NYC Mill Hall Jct mp 50.0 Jct Williamsport Division mp 52.0 Most of Bellefonte branch is in Williamsport Division Division post is passenger station in Bellefonte miles from Sunbury Jct Middle Division Bellefonte mp 76.1 Jct Laurelton branch mp 27.4 Junction Division main line -- Lewisburg mp 8.8 This is all 1945 information Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:33:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Daytime Passenger Trains Hmmm.....you didn't mention the location of the scene, or the train's direction. If it's a Middle Division shot, which is often the case, the eastbound St. Louisan and Pennsyalvania Ltd were frequent favorites. oh yeah, the era? Could be the westbound Gotham or Manhattan Ltd's, both of which had considerable headend. (But then, so did the eastbound Admiral). Would it be possible to point out a few more specifics? Perhaps one of us on the list has the same tape and has some more definite idea? regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Daytime Passenger Trains Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:00:23 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08241.B264A7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry...thanks...I should have been more specific. One video is the Penn = Valley 'Middle Division'. location is, I believe is anywhere from = Duncannon to the Lewistown Narrows...both east and westbounds are = seen...I'll review my tapes again, but thought the P85's were only seen = on the St.Louis trains, is this so? Some of the E-7's on the point are = Brunswick Green, circa 1952? and later video features E-8's. I guess the = thought that I had was where the P85 coaches only used on St.Louis = trains or were they used on the 'Gotham' or 'Manhatten Limited'? Most, = if not all of the video features the P85 coaches. If not, than I guess = that they were used on New York-Chicago trains! Thanks Barry...for your = imput ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08241.B264A7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Barry...thanks...I should have been more specific. = One video=20 is the Penn Valley 'Middle Division'. location  is, I believe is = anywhere=20 from Duncannon to the Lewistown Narrows...both east and westbounds are=20 seen...I'll review my tapes again, but thought the P85's were only seen = on the=20 St.Louis trains, is this so? Some of the E-7's on the point are = Brunswick Green,=20 circa 1952? and later video features E-8's. I guess the thought that I = had was=20 where the P85 coaches only used on St.Louis trains or were they used on = the=20 'Gotham' or 'Manhatten Limited'? Most, if not all of the video features = the P85=20 coaches. If not, than I guess that they were used on New York-Chicago = trains!=20 Thanks Barry...for your imput
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08241.B264A7C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:00:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Daytime Passenger Trains In a message dated 01/19/2000 4:24:00 PM Central Standard Time, rholden@superpa.net writes: << I see that it features a number of P85B coaches, so I assume that it is a St.Louis train? >> Not a correct assumption. the P85B (was the R for airconditioning dropped by this time?) was used system-wide as far as I know. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:08:28 -0600 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR] Bowser T1 Two different thoughts on the modification of the T1 frame. 1) You should be able to reduce the minimum radius by narrowing the frame, at least near the axles. I would think about .015 inch (about .4 mm) on each side would be a good starting point. Then, to keep the engine in line, install piano wire centering springs on the engine and trailing trucks - which ain't a bad idea anyway. 2) Rigidizing the frame aggravates a problem the real T1s had, that the model improved on. The real T1s had problems slipping because weight would transfer from either engine to the remaining wheels if low spots in the track were encountered. The Penn Line / Bowser engines were arranged with each engine acting much like a car or diesel locomotive truck. The trick would be to let the engines rock back and forth in a longitudinal motion, as they do now, to conform to track irregularities, but prevent the transverse rotation, which gives the undesired articulation. A friend of mine has a Penn Line T1 which he rigidized with a plate on the bottom of the cover plates. It has no problems on our club's 48 inch radius curves, but I've seen it act like the real ones when there's a low spot in the track. Keep in mind that the real T1s had driver springs, and Bowser T1s don't. Letting the engines rock would at least partially help. A way to do this would be to make a strip that would be fastened below the frame cover plate. The strip would have a longitudinal slot for each cover plate screw. The cover plate screw would be replaced with a longer screw through a washer under the head, and a sleeve made of brass tube. The sleeve would hold the cover plate in place, like a shouldered screw. The washer would bear against a spring which would bear against a washer, against the strip. The slots and springs should allow the frames to rock back and forth a little, which should be all that is necessary. Of course, another way would be to mill up a new sprung frame like the brass locomotives have, machine up some axle boxes to fit the Bowser wheels, install new NWSL or KTM gearboxes, quarter everything up, and off you go. It sounds real simple... Pat Egan ----- Original Message ----- From: PRR-Talk To: PRR-Talk Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 2:12 PM Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/19/00 PRR-Talk Digest - Wednesday, January 19, 2000 Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secret... by CT1000 by "Jeff Knorek" Re: [PRR] NEW Transition F units..was..I've kept this a secret... by RE: [PRR] CT1000 by "Andrews, Ted" Re: [PRR] P-70FBR by "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Re: [PRR] CT1000 by Re: [PRR] Bowser T1 by "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations by "Drew McGhee" RE: [PRR] Bowser T1 by "Kollar, Kris" Re: [PRR] CT1000 by (Fwd) rare railroad books for sale (NMRA library) by "Roger P. Hensley" State College-Lemont by "Matt Sichel" Re: [PRR] State College-Lemont by "Jerry Britton" Re: [PRR] P-70FBR Interior painting ideas by Re: [PRR] CT1000 by N & W INFO - off topic by Y Me? PRR 2-8-8-2 by "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Grey MOW cabins was Lettering the N6b by "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." CT1000 -- Was Re: [PRR] State College-Lemont by "Jerry Britton" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] I' ve kept this a secret... From: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 02:27:22 EST Dan and all, You are correct, 4359 was involve in an accident and had the nose replace with an FT nose from one of the Y class electrics recycled from Great Northern. This would make an interesting conversion from the ATLAS/CON COR model. Now I am going to have to research the date of the accident to see whether this will become my FP-7 I model. Greg Martin In a message Dan Cupper (@mciworld.com) writes: << Greetings to Steve and the List: Be careful about using small numberboards as a spotting feature. An old copy of X2200 South (Jan 1970) shows an atypical situation -- PRR FP7 4359 with an F3-style nose having small numberboards. No explanation in the caption, perhaps it was a wreck repair. Dan Dan Cupper >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: CT1000 From: "Jeff Knorek" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 06:41:59 -0500 Greetings to the list- With all the talk about CT1000 on this list recently, it begs the question: does anybody know roughly how many are in circulation? If there is a small number, might somebody among us consider creating and marketing a reprint? Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] NEW Transition F units..was..I've kept this a secret... From: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:00:58 EST In a message dated 1/18/00 9:21:35 PM Mountain Standard Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << For us as SPF's, it probably doesn't matter much if an engine is an F3, F5, or F7; we know them as EF15, EF15a, and EH15. And the steam modeler's rule of working from a photo applies to F's, too. Do all diesels look alike? Absolutely not--this is the PRR! >> This is absolutely true! In addition, diesels change over time. So, it is advisable to truy to have photos of the unit you are modeling in the era you are modeling. Especially with F-units. Stuart ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] CT1000 From: "Andrews, Ted" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:27:33 -0500 Jeff: It is uncertian on how many were originally published and more importantly, how many have survived over the years. The current availability and rareness can be see in the price; the range of prices is about $20-$50 apiece. It would also depend on the condition and on whether the CT 1000 covers the entire system or not. I think that if one looks hard enough at trainshows and online auctions like Ebay, one can find a copy within a few months or so. It seems that once a month or so, a least one CT 1000 shows up on Ebay. I got mine from Ebay a few months ago for about $30 dollars. It took me a few months of looking before I came across one that matched what I was looking for. I don't think that these documents will ever be republished but my be posted on the web for downloading. I hope that this information helps you. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Knorek [mailto:jknorek@mail.msen.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 6:42 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] CT1000 Greetings to the list- With all the talk about CT1000 on this list recently, it begs the question: does anybody know roughly how many are in circulation? If there is a small number, might somebody among us consider creating and marketing a reprint? Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70FBR From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:16:18 -0600 Walt asked > Dear list, Currently working on three P-70FBR's ( less said of the >trails and tribulations the better) and I would appreciate answers to the >following questions: 1. What is the correct color scheme for the >interiors? (Seats, floors, walls, ect.) Walt, the Keystone has a passenger car interior painting diagram from 194 p62, vol 29, number 3 fall 96)1..the P-70FBRs aren't listed, but this may give you some ideas: Seats - green or diagonal stripe brown plush metal parts - brown wood - mahogony floors - battleship green linoleum walls - baseboard & heater, brown, bulkhead and passageway - drab fascia and parcel rack - tan between window sill and fascia - wood rose above fascia - parchment white ceiling - parchment white mens saloon and lav - walls grey womens saloon and lav - walls dark rose I have left out a number of the details sucha s red stripes, red doors etc. as the diagram is really the best source, and for your models, you may not care to get into such detail Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 From: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:16:39 EST I think the systemwide CT1000 is one example of a document that ought to be reprinted, especially for historical research purposes. I know of a guy in Maryland who did reproductions of various B&O operating documents for fans and historians of that railroad and I see no reason why the same should not be done for the Pennsy. I have several reprints of Pennsy timetables in my collection and that is an example. Also Freight schedule books and other hard to find documents are worthy of reprinting. I would be willing to settle for a reprint if that will give me the information I need for my research. James Mancuso Perry, NY 14530 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser T1 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:22:10 -0600 Sam, > I am going to start my Bowser T1 kit pretty soon and would like some >input on a few items. 1. Number boards, any body make ones that I could >back light? No but some clear plastic can be cut to size pretty easily > 2. If I try to make it non-articulated how big of a radius will I >need to still run it, also has anybody tried this and what method have >you used to make the 2 sets of drivers stationary? I was going to try to >make a template from sheet brass to tie them together?? Thanks in >advance Sam Well, I've been trying to do the major remodel - that is a whole new chassis to remove the holes from the top of the loco! After more than a year, I'm part of the way there. Of course the other goal was to get rid of those Bowser motors, so I have NWSL gear towers and a couple of can motors. Now, with the temporary demise of Alco Products (lets hope its only temporary) you can't get the Helix Humber for the T-1...If you could, I would suggest replacing the bottom plates of the two chassis with a single solid piece (brass). Of course you can do that with the Bowser motors too. Minimum radius, from my not too precise experimentation is going to be around 36", at least. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations From: "Drew McGhee" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:41:49 -0500 Lee, Thanks for the list. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 12:10 AM 01/19/2000 EST, LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: >Here is a list (incomplete, I am sure) of milk locations on the PRR, that we >have turnd up in the 1950s industry database project mentioned recently. I >suspect that the West Newark location was a receiver and the others were >shippers -- tho I cannot prove this. > >Lee Rainey 6006 > > >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. West Newark NJ >Sheffield Farms Co. Avon-by-the-Sea NJ >Sheffield Farms Co. West End NJ >Borden Creamery Troy PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Cedar Ledge PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Light Street PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Middleburg PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Milton PA >Dairymen's League Coop. Assoc. Rising Springs PA >Sheffield Farms Co. Bellefonte PA >Sheffield Farms Co. Canton PA >Sheffield Farms Co. Mill Hall PA >Sheffield Farms Co. Rising Springs PA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser T1 From: "Kollar, Kris" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:22:07 -0500 Just a thought on this subject. Not sure if it would work and you'd be taking a risk at permanently damaging one or two sets of drivers. What about converting some of the drivers into blind drivers. This way you could still eliminate the articulated joint but might be able to reduce the minimum radius. Also depending on which set of the rear drivers you remove the wheel flange from you could further decrease the minimum radius. i.e. remove the flange on the fourth set of drivers versus the third and you should result with a tighter turning circle. Of course it won't look great on curves (but neither does the articulated joint) and it may create derailing problems but its an idea and might just allow those with smaller layouts to operate the mighty T-1...the most handsome steam engine ever built! Any thoughts supporting or contrary? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 9:22 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser T1 Sam, > I am going to start my Bowser T1 kit pretty soon and would like some >input on a few items. 1. Number boards, any body make ones that I could >back light? No but some clear plastic can be cut to size pretty easily > 2. If I try to make it non-articulated how big of a radius will I >need to still run it, also has anybody tried this and what method have >you used to make the 2 sets of drivers stationary? I was going to try to >make a template from sheet brass to tie them together?? Thanks in >advance Sam Well, I've been trying to do the major remodel - that is a whole new chassis to remove the holes from the top of the loco! After more than a year, I'm part of the way there. Of course the other goal was to get rid of those Bowser motors, so I have NWSL gear towers and a couple of can motors. Now, with the temporary demise of Alco Products (lets hope its only temporary) you can't get the Helix Humber for the T-1...If you could, I would suggest replacing the bottom plates of the two chassis with a single solid piece (brass). Of course you can do that with the Bowser motors too. Minimum radius, from my not too precise experimentation is going to be around 36", at least. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 From: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:42:47 EST In a message dated 1/19/2000 6:28:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, GenJim833@aol.com writes: << I think the systemwide CT1000 is one example of a document that ought to be reprinted, especially for historical research purposes. . . . Also Freight schedule books and other hard to find documents are worthy of reprinting. I would be willing to settle for a reprint if that will give me the information I need for my research. >> Ditto here! I would snap up reprints of such documents in a nanosecond. Lee Rainey 6006 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: (Fwd) rare railroad books for sale (NMRA library) From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:57:48 +0000 ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: VR Bass To: bigtrains,slimrails,1:20.3,sslivesteam,livesteamers,rrresearch Subject: rare railroad books for sale (NMRA library) Date sent: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:12:52 -0700 Fellow railroad fans, The NMRA Library has just posted a new rare books list on the library web page. These are books from the library's duplicate materials which are of special interest -- limited editions, author signed copies, etc. All sales of duplicate materials benefit the library, a resource for all railroad modelers and railfans. To view the rare books list, or any of the duplicate materials for sale, go to http://www.nmra.org/library and choose "Duplicate Book Sales". If you have never used the NMRA library for research, be sure to look around at the library's pages to see how you can use its vast railroad and modeling collection to help you. ------- End of forwarded message ------- Roger Roger Hensley 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://cid.railfan.net ====================================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ============== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: State College-Lemont From: "Matt Sichel" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:20:04 EST Hello to All, Does anyone have any information on the routing of track off of the Bald Eagle Branch into the State College-Lemont-Bellefonte area. My layout is of a ficticious PRR Branch in that area and I need the info so that I may know where to make junctions with the State College area lines. My line is planned from between Shawnee and Lewistown to go north west to Port Matilda. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks, Matt Sichel ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] State College-Lemont From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:51:31 -0500 On 1/19/00 1:20 PM, Matt Sichel (popsichel@hotmail.com) wrote: > Does anyone have any information on the routing of track off of the Bald > Eagle Branch into the State College-Lemont-Bellefonte area. My layout is of > a ficticious PRR Branch in that area and I need the info so that I may know > where to make junctions with the State College area lines. My line is > planned from between Shawnee and Lewistown to go north west to Port Matilda. Start with the "Hobo's Guide to the Pennsy" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/ There are excellent guides to the Bald Eagle Branch and the Bellefonte Branch. Also of note, but not PRR, is the Bellefonte Central. This ore carrier connects to the PRR at Bellefonte, makes a wide sweep around the valley, through the ore pits at Scotia, and went into downtown State College. There was a passenger station on College Avenue where the current Engineering Building resides, across the street from the Old College Diner. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70FBR Interior painting ideas From: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:52:20 EST All... In getting additional ideas for painting the interiors of passenger equipment, I have found color magazine ads from the period to be a great source / starting point for painting passenger car interiors. O.K.....so there not exactly "color correct" ( just look at the DGLE and Tuscan / Maroon of the train itself in the same ads) but you will find very useful details like.... Upholstery, carpet, and window shade patterns. Fixtures (lights, mirrors, tables, trim styles, etc.) "Approximate" color palette and usage IMHO, these ads (while a graphic depiction) are accurate in their content. Certainly PRRs Public Relations Dept. would not have producing national / local advertisement that inaccurately represented their product / service and that did not portray the most modern image to the public. (O.K., lets the bullets fly!) I don't have a website yet, so if someone would be willing to host my (and hopefully other contributors) pictures, I will be glad to forward scans. Thus far I have ads for...... 1947 P85B Circa 1940 Trailblazer / Jeffersonian Diner Circa 1952 Congressional / Senator Parlor, Coach, Coffee Shop, Dining, Drawing Room cars Regards, Brian Butcher PRRT&HS 5540 Midlothian - VA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 From: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:06:29 EST The complete CT 1000 is 825 pages. How much would people be willing to pay for a reprint ? One problem I've found with PRR material is that it has a high collector value which tends to keep it expensive if available for sale and once sold it rarely shows up as reprints. The MP 229 forms for example are being reprinted slowly by a member of the Phila. Chapter PRR T&HS for $25 ea. In talking with him he said he has a number of these he intends to do but the work required to get it in a cleaned up form that can be copied takes a long time. As a PRR modeler and owner of a PRR based model railroad I see a market for the following: CT 1000 for industry and trackage mile post info. MP 229 for loco assignments at a given location during a given time period. Freight schedules for the scheduling and makeup of freight traffic for a given location at a given time period. Equiptment rosters showing car numbers , classes ,number of cars and modifications and special equiptment. Any body else have any additions ? Both the PRRT&HS national and Phila. chapter are looking for some additional sources of income to support their activities. Wouldn't this be a good source of info and income for the society ? Are people willing to pay a fair price for the info ? Ken McCorry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: N & W INFO - off topic From: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:08:27 EST Check out Index of /imagebase_new/norfolksouthern/ful Searchable data base of 5,000 to 6,000 N&S - N&W and VGN images located on the computer of Virginia Tech, in Blacksburgh Va http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/ will bring you to the browse and search menu for the Virginia Tech Imagebase. If you chose browse, you will get 10-20 thumbnails at a time. There are two collections, one called Norfolk and Western and one called Norfolk Southern. Suprisingly the Norfolk Southern collection seems to have more historically interesting images. Feel free to pass this back to the list server. Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Y Me? PRR 2-8-8-2 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:11:34 -0600 Hi all, What a can of worms! Some of you may recall the lead in discussion to the question of how to most accurately model an HH-1 from the LifeLike Y-3? As noted, Bob Hundeman of Mainline Modeler claims that #375 had a Y-5 (Y tube) front end. The photo in PP1 clearly date 1943, shows #373 with a Y tube front end, and boiler tube pilot. The photo in Hundeman's article shows #373 in 1946 with the old front end and a footboard pilot...(BTW, the footboard pilots were not a PRR addition...the N&W had plenty of them) Anybody care to bet that sometime between the two photos, #373 swapped front engines with another loco (perhaps #375)?????? As per Gary M., the remaining locos all appear to have had the old front end and footboard pilots. Now I'm really anxious to see how LifeLike handles this Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Grey MOW cabins was Lettering the N6b From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:13:57 -0600 Tom V. said: > I also should have said that I have seen no N6 wearing the battleship >gray 1940-1954 MOW scheme but noted that the class was included in a list >on a tracing which referred to MOW colors. Tom, Specifically which classes are documented to have received the grey MOW scheme? Did that scheme include a grey roof, or a black roof? Any chance of scanning in that tracing or telling me where to find it? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: CT1000 -- Was Re: [PRR] State College-Lemont From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:15:19 -0500 On 1/19/00 2:09 PM, KEMACPRR@aol.com (KEMACPRR@aol.com) wrote: > Jerry a little off subject but don't you have the CT 1000 scanned on the PRR > pages ? I sent you mine about a year ago . Not sure if these people haven't > looked for it there. Yes. All three divisions (East, Central, and West) of the CT1000 for 1945, as well as the East division of the CT1000 for 1923 are available from my "Keystone Crossings" site, as well as on CD-ROM. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Daytime Passenger Trains Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:12:45 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08254.301944C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, folks...The older I get the more I learn! Never assume anything = on the PRR. Indeed, the P85 coaches were used system wide. I just looked = up some photos in Morning Sun PRR Color Guide and there they are, both = in Chicago, Columbus, Ohio and elsewhere on the system. The text states = that they were used both on the 'Trail Blazer and Jeffersonian, but = quite likely they were used throughout the system later on...live and = learn!=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08254.301944C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, folks...The older I get the more I learn! = Never assume=20 anything on the PRR. Indeed, the P85 coaches were used system wide. I = just=20 looked up some photos in Morning Sun PRR Color Guide and there they are, = both in=20 Chicago, Columbus, Ohio and elsewhere on the system. The text states = that they=20 were used both on the 'Trail Blazer and Jeffersonian, but quite likely = they were=20 used throughout the system later on...live and learn!
 
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C08254.301944C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:28:56 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] A rigid frame Bowser T1 with unflanged drivers Hello list, I don't think the unflanged center drivers would work very well on the Bowser chassis if it was converted to a rigid frame with a single cover plate. This is my reasoning (after this, the flames will start pouring in); feel free to correct my (undoubtedly flawed) logic. On a rigid framed 8 coupled engine, the middle drivers can be flangeless because the side rod connects all four drivers on one side, preventing any pair or wheel from dropping off the rail onto the ties. With the Bowser frames and only one driver set flanged, there could be enough play in the side rods to let a blind driver drop onto the ties, with reliability approaching that of the prototype. I eagerly await Bruce's completed T1; it sounds like it's going to be a masterpiece! I elected to compromise and live with the articulated chassis and high sided tender. I'm beginning to think I'm only fanatical about my K4s Pacifics..... I would highly recommend the Alco Products Repower kits (should they be again produced by another company); my T1 purrs. My engine runs (albeit not happily) on a 22 inch radius, and she looks silly doing so. Let the flames begin! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] modifying plastic models Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:16:45 -0800 I have been following the threads on modifying plastic HO model steamers. I have also read the articles on modifying Bowser steamers. I am in O scale. I have mostly brass equipment. The reason for this is that the plastic models just don't seem to hold up. The details fall off too easily. I have built several intermountain hopper kits and a couple of their boxcar kits. They are really nice models built one must take great care to not knock off the details. How do you keep all those fine details on the bowser kits? Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:11:19 EST Subject: [PRR] Mexico City sleepers and P85BRs Appropos of recent posts on the subject, whilst in the "library" rereading the Kalmbach book, Pennsy Streamliners, by Joe Welch, I note that in 1949 train 4, the "Sunshine Special" (soon to be renamed Penn Texas) carried a Willow series 10-1-2 Mexico City-New York. Same book included a P85BR in the Detroit Arrow to New York and 5 P85BRs from the old Trailblazer combined into the General in a 1962 consist. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:15:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 In a message dated 1/19/2000 11:15:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, KEMACPRR@aol.com writes: << Are people willing to pay a fair price for the info ? >> Sure. I have bought all the Official Guide reprints over the years, the recent Ry Equipment Register, various rosters, folio books, rule books, timetables, operating manuals, etc. A "fair price" beats the cost of tracking them down and xeroxing, or paying collectibles prices when all you want is the data. Lee Rainey 6006 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "walter mcwilliams" Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:30:00 -0500 YES especially if you put on a CD. Imagine all of the Keystones on a CD set! -----Original Message----- From: KEMACPRR@aol.com To: jknorek@mail.msen.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 2:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 >The complete CT 1000 is 825 pages. How much would people be willing to pay >for a reprint ? One problem I've found with PRR material is that it has a >high collector value which tends to keep it expensive if available for sale >and once sold it rarely shows up as reprints. The MP 229 forms for example >are being reprinted slowly by a member of the Phila. Chapter PRR T&HS for $25 >ea. In talking with him he said he has a number of these he intends to do but >the work required to get it in a cleaned up form that can be copied takes a >long time. > As a PRR modeler and owner of a PRR based model railroad I see a market for >the following: CT 1000 for industry and trackage mile post info. MP 229 for >loco assignments at a given location during a given time period. Freight >schedules for the scheduling and makeup of freight traffic for a given >location at a given time period. Equiptment rosters showing car numbers , >classes ,number of cars and modifications and special equiptment. Any body >else have any additions ? Both the PRRT&HS national and Phila. chapter are >looking for some additional sources of income to support their activities. >Wouldn't this be a good source of info and income for the society ? Are >people willing to pay a fair price for the info ? > Ken McCorry > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:58:51 -0800 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] Bowser M-1a Hi, Would anybody care to comment upon the Bowser M1a kit? I'm looking for information on its fidelity to the prototype, tender accuracy, running characteristics, ease of construction, availability of repowering options (Helix Humper?), etc. This would also be my first Bowser locomitve kit. Are upgrades available to increase its fidelity? Will it pull paint off a wall? Thanmks in advance. Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 714-278-2669 Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (Fax) P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 02:56:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 Ok guys here's the info. About a year ago I sent Jerry Britton my copy of the 1945 CT 1000. He has scanned it and has it available on the Keystone Crossings site and available on a CD. How about that !!!!!! Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:12:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser M-1a From: Jerry Britton On 1/20/00 1:58 AM, Frank Bagrash at (fbagrash@fullerton.edu) wrote: > Hi, Would anybody care to comment upon the Bowser M1a kit? I'm looking > for information on its fidelity to the prototype, tender accuracy, > running characteristics, ease of construction, availability of > repowering options (Helix Humper?), etc. Alco Products, maker of the Helix Humper, is currently in business limbo. They are not accepting or filling orders and word is that they are trying to sell the business. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:49:41 -0500 From: "cwhary" Subject: [PRR] Unreadable Messages People, Are there any others on the PRR Talk that are having trouble reading meesages that are posted? I am running approximately 10 - 12 % unreadable. When I try and open all I receive is the braodcast heading. Thanx. -- Charles E. Whary -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:16:01 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: NEW F-units..was.. I' ve kept this a secrete... In a message dated 1/18/00 8:46:38 AM Mountain Standard Time, TGREGMRTN writes: << Examples would be: Do they offer both round and square windows for the rear door?>> Rear door, square window. >> This is too bad. This is a significant detail variation. <> Stu, what I think you may be referencing is the corners of the doors themselves. The windows in the side door always had a radii's in the corners, what was different was the door itself. The early doors had square corners (until 3/50 per Ed Hawkins) and after that the doors became what I have always referred to as "airplane doors" with round corners. The Kit comes with square corners, but as I stated in my original post, "But some work will be required to create all the variations..." >> Yes I was refering to the door frame. As to changing the door corners to the round variation, that's going to be tough. I am going to have to think about that one. I have an idea, but not sure how well it would work. <> Yes, This change came in late 1949 and the lip will be attached to the window glass, per Paul. >> So, he will have two different windshield inserts? <> Unfortunately, no. This is always a bugger isn't it! I just went through it with my PA/B set. I will share a painless way to do this without scribing a scratch in the nose in the PA/B article. >> I am looking forward to your ideas and techniques on the MU door. << Like I have said I am no expert on the F-unit subject, but I started in-depth research on them about 8 months ago. I started by digging out my old Mainline Modelers from the very early 80's, an "absolute must have" for the avid F Unit guy and still available as back issues. Then recently I purchased the new Jeff Wilson/Kalmbach Publishing book, F UNITS The Diesel that Did It, this is a must have book. I had an opportunity to attend Ed Hawkins F Unit Seminar at the Sunshine Meet In Naperville this past fall. So my skills are good and getting better and I want to do a spread sheet on my favorite roads F Units as many of the production date/phase changes are arbitrary. >> I like the idea of a spread sheet on F-unit details. I should do the same. << Again, Jim Six and I have both talked about these new F Units and they both have their strong points and I wish not to play up their shortcomings. We have finally been handed beautiful F Units and it started last spring. My engine facilities will harbor both, so I am stepping to the plate... >> I will also have both IM and HL units. The main reason is due to the fact that the HL model lends itself better to doing certain roads later F-units. I am refering to the CRR units. Take a look at some of those units from the late 60's and 70's sometime. There was almost nothing left as-built. Louvers were swapped araound. Even portholes were swapped around. I am hoping that the HL model makes doing these modifications easier. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:26:22 -0600 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/20/00 Keep on mind that 87/48 (HO divided by O scale proportions is about 0.55, or about 11/20ths, or about a half. A cross sectionsl area of any item, which is what determines the strength at those places where parts break, increases on the square, and thats 0.55 x 0.55, or about 0.3. O gauge has three times the cross section, if all else is equal. BUT that's linear dimensions. Cube that, and you get about 0.16, or O gauge is 6 times HO in size, and that applies to weight as well as volume. The reason why you're breaking stuff and we aren't, is pretty directly traceable to the weight of O gauge. Plastic, especially styrene, is not used for strength, but for its working characteristics - curring, molding, and so on. The cars and locomotives are six times the weight, but the cross sections are 3 times HO. In other words, O gauge is half as strong as HO. It's not plastic, it's anything. I'll bet you get some bent stuff on brass locomotives, too. If you're in O gauge, you have to be twice as careful. Pat Egan Subject: modifying plastic models From: "Greg Stone" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:16:45 -0800 I have been following the threads on modifying plastic HO model steamers. I have also read the articles on modifying Bowser steamers. I am in O scale. I have mostly brass equipment. The reason for this is that the plastic models just don't seem to hold up. The details fall off too easily. I have built several intermountain hopper kits and a couple of their boxcar kits. They are really nice models built one must take great care to not knock off the details. How do you keep all those fine details on the bowser kits? Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:50:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages From: Jerry Britton On 1/20/00 7:49 AM, cwhary (cwhary@paonline.com) wrote: > Are there any others on the PRR Talk that are having trouble reading meesages > that are posted? I am running approximately 10 - 12 % > unreadable. When I try and open all I receive is the braodcast heading. > Thanx. I am not seeing this at all, either with my local account or my remote account. It also is not showing up in the digests. Anyone else having problems? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:16:15 -0500 > >Anyone else having problems? >--------------------------------------------------------- I have had no difficulty of any kind here, Jerry. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:52:18 -0500 I n notice that some messages have one or more lines of type missing with just a hint of the letter shape at the very top or bottom of that line of type. The letter about O scale equipment breaking had two line of message missing from the middle of the message. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: cwhary@paonline.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages >On 1/20/00 7:49 AM, cwhary (cwhary@paonline.com) wrote: > >> Are there any others on the PRR Talk that are having trouble reading meesages >> that are posted? I am running approximately 10 - 12 % >> unreadable. When I try and open all I receive is the braodcast heading. >> Thanx. > >I am not seeing this at all, either with my local account or my remote >account. It also is not showing up in the digests. > >Anyone else having problems? >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:59:43 -0500 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: [PRR] T1 kit I received my February issue of Railmodel Journal yesterday, and there is an ad on page 70 for the Locomotive Workshop offering T1's in HO and O, kit or built up. Is this new or something I missed before? Anyone familiar with these products? Thanks. Sorry if this is a repeat. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 20 Jan 00 10:04:27 EST From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Unreadable Messages No Problem, my computer works. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:09:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 kit From: Jerry Britton On 1/20/00 9:59 AM, Dave Pfeiffer (dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com) wrote: > I received my February issue of Railmodel Journal yesterday, and there is > an ad on page 70 for the Locomotive Workshop offering T1's in HO and O, kit > or built up. Is this new or something I missed before? Anyone familiar > with these products? This is news to me as well. Also, Key will be doing the T1 in N in brass this year. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] supplier of HO PRR passenger car trucks Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:09:15 -0500 Anyone know where I might find a set of 3C-P1 trucks in HO? Thanks for your help, Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:20:32 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] BM70s (was:BM-60 More info) In a similar vein, I have used Grant Line Narrow gauge windows to kitbash the Rivarossi/AHM/IHC BM70nb(+/-) into a BM70m. It was the most common RPO combine on the roster in the post WWII era. The Grant Line Narrow gauge windows are a close match to the windows used prior to the sealed window on the "nb"s. I also used Keystone Models 6wl PRR trucks and a wood high arch roof from NorthEastern. They can stand a much closer inspection than 3 feet in a moving train! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Chuck Friedlein wrote: > > Dave and the List, > > In case you didn't recognize it, the > Rivarossi/AHM/IHC/now-distributed-by-Model Expo HO smooth side (not really, > but that's how they advertise it) RPO is a BM70nb with modernized features > (arch roof and 4-wheel trucks). > > Anybody who wants to do a quick-and-dirty backdate of it can do so by using > one of the Rivarossi's 72' heavyweight coaches. The clerestory roof/window > part will fit down in the RPO body with minor trimming of the corners of the > vertical window sides/ends. > > Then all you need to do is add a pair of their regular 6-wheel trucks and > appropriate couplers to do it. Okay it ain't the most accurate thing in the > world, but then that's not the point of this exercise--just change the look > from a distance of 3 ft of a moving train (if I recall correctly what was > said in an earlier post). > > I did a couple of these about six years ago and they aren't bad at all to > give a very different flavor to a train. > > Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:23:00 -0500 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 Neat. How about Lines West? JK KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > Ok guys here's the info. About a year ago I sent Jerry Britton my copy of the > 1945 CT 1000. He has scanned it and has it available on the Keystone > Crossings site and available on a CD. How about that !!!!!! > Ken McCorry > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:39:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 From: Jerry Britton On 1/20/00 10:23 AM, Jeff Knorek (jknorek@mail.msen.com) wrote: > How about Lines West? The CT1000W on Keystone Crossings (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/) includes Lines West. It is available for 1945 only. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:57:45 -0500 (EST) From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, cwhary wrote: > People, > > Are there any others on the PRR Talk that are having trouble reading meesages that are posted? I am running approximately 10 - 12 % > unreadable. When I try and open all I receive is the braodcast heading. Thanx. Some of the message are unreadable because they are formatted in HTML. I'm using Pine on a SparcStation to read email and it does not decode HTML, it shows it as attachments. Patrick ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Covington, Kentucky ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:14:56 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages I am having NO problem here either...I am also using Pine on a FreeBSD machine....no misses and there aint all that much HTML either... Regards On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, W. Terry Stuart wrote: >> >>Anyone else having problems? >>--------------------------------------------------------- > >I have had no difficulty of any kind here, Jerry. > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:17:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] ETT's, CT1000's, and other PRR Documents From: Jerry Britton I have just reorganized the Documents page on Keystone Crossings: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ Hopefully it will be easier to find what you are looking for. Also, the Employee Timetables have been moved to their own page. Besides what is currently available, I have also listed ETT's that are already in my possession for scanning and conversion to Acrobat PDF format. A 1955 Philadelphia Terminal Division ETT will be posted within the next few days. Also coming are a whole box of maps lent to me by a very patient lister...I've had them for two months now but have been backlogged! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:34:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages I'm not having any probelm on AOL but do get occasional duplicated messages. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:48:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Keith B. Thompson - Sun" Subject: [PRR] Signal plans Hello, I am looking for scale drawings of PRR signals. The one I am most interested in is the round 7 light signal head. I'd be willing to pay for copies & shipping or what ever. I can also handle most electronic formats vi email or FAX, 781-442-1693. Thanks, kbt P.S. Thanks to those who responded to my question on impedence "bonds". You were a big help. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:43:35 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] DN Tower, not Verona There has been a thread on DN Tower, at or near Verona, Pa. running in the past few days. Late last night, the 1923 CT1000 told me there was a DN Tower 1 1/2 miles west of Burgettstown, Pa. on the Panhandle Div. I didn't take the time to see if the 1945 CT1000 said the same thing. Since there is no fundamental reason preventing having a DN Tower on each division, I wonder how many there were? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:45:19 EST Subject: [PRR] Off-Subject, slightly:VGN "Battleship" Gondolas Gents, Would a Virginian, "Battleship" gondola ever have ventured into the PRR system and become part of a Pennsy freight haul? These big old monsters have always appealed to me, and I would like to add one or two to my collection. I would like them to fit into the 1945-1955 theme, is that a possibility? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:12:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Purchasing the CD Rom, Keystone Crossings III On Line From: Jerry Britton On 1/20/00 12:41 PM, GenJim833@aol.com (GenJim833@aol.com) wrote: > Jerry: I would like to know how I can go about purchasing the CD Rom, > Keystone Crossings On Line with the CT1000 and other PRR documents of > interest to me. Also how I access documents on the CD Rom. Any information > that you can give me on this would be most appreciated. Thank you. Since I've already answered this about 8 times today, I'd thought I'd just do so to the list. If you go to http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ds/ds.html , you'll see the list of available CD-ROMs. Each list shows what is on the ROM, what software is required to access it, etc. Most files, like the CT1000 series, are in Adobe Acrobat format. The free Acrobat Reader is included. These CD's are in ISO-9660 format and should be usable by all UNIX, Windows, and Mac systems. To order, go to http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/index.ws4d and perform a search for Vendor = Desktop Solutions Sub-Category = Software The CD-ROMs will come right up. Place an order by indicating the quantity of each that you want. When you checkout, you can either use a credit card using a secure SSL connection or print out an order form that you can FAX or mail to us with credit card information (or a check if by mail). Volume IV: The next volume is slowly being created, but I need more files to make it worthwhile. With half of the ETT's from Sept. 1954 in my possession, I am hoping to acquire the complete set and include them on this ROM. Volume V: There will be yet another ROM, this one with valuation maps (1":100' scale) including the Harrisburg and Enola yards. This one will require high-end imaging software, such as Adobe PhotoShop. ----------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, President jbritton@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. Web hosting and design http://www.dsop.com "Merchandise Service" Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Hutchinson Subject: [PRR] Dispatcher Sheets Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:20:56 -0500 Does anyone have in their possession, Dispatcher Sheets for the New York Division for 1942-1945? I am looking for some info on PRR troop train movements in and out of Camp Kilmer (Stelton), NJ. David Hutchinson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:53:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser T1 In a message dated 1/19/00 10:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, kris.kollar@paharr.ang.af.mil writes: << What about converting some of the drivers into blind drivers. >> Why not, although not protypical for the T-1 the Pennsy once had an Atlantic with a pair of blind drivers - pre war I-1s had up to 3 flangeless pairs - even the B-1 electrics has a pair of "flat tires" Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:13:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Off-Subject, slightly:VGN "Battleship" Gondolas George, I'm at work at the moment so don't have access to it, but the NEB&W freight car book has a fairly detailed discussion of this very question. If you have a copy, look under the gondola section, (Red Ball kits,related). If no one has replied to your question by this evening, I'll try to get their conclusions back to you. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:10:46 -0800 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: [PRR] Unreadable Messages Everything is coming through just fine here. Chuck ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:35:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? In a message dated 1/20/00 2:52:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, DPoole17 writes: << An ATLANTIC is a 4-4-2 on the PRR. If you had a blind driver on an ATLANTIC it wouldn't stay on the track. Might you mean a PACIFIC?? >> I was waiting for someone to question that - On the PRR you learn never to say never - but the answer is not the one that I would have guessed (blind rear drivers - with a rigid trailing truck) PRR Class E-1, 4-4-2, had blind LEAD drivers According to the March 1974 Keystone: "the most unique use of plain tires, anywhere, occurred on the three class E-1 locomotives built in 1899. " "It is rather difficult to imagine a locomotive with only two pairs of drivers being able to operate without flanges on both pairs. This arrangement was possible because the front truck was rigidly pivoted to the engine frame and thus held the front of the engine constantly in line with the track. The engine truck provided all the guiding on the curves and held the front half of the locomotive on the rails" "Another unusual arrangement of plain tires was on the HC1s, where the fourth pair of drivers were plain and the third pair was flanged, the reverse of what would be expected." On the rear engine axles five and eight had flanged tires, while six and seven were plain. I don't know how the model looks, but according the Prophet (John M. III) the ex N&W Class HH-1 had all 16 drivers flanged Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:54:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? Dick Just to pass this little tidbit info on, the new LifeLike 2-8-8-2 has all drivers flanged like you say Prophet stated the real locos had.. These drivers have extremely fine flanges, really looks good...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:50:42 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Off-Subject, slightly:VGN "Battleship" Gondolas --- Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Gents, > Would a Virginian, "Battleship" gondola ever have > ventured into the PRR > system and become part of a Pennsy freight haul? > These big old monsters have > always appealed to me, and I would like to add one > or two to my collection. I > would like them to fit into the 1945-1955 theme, is > that a possibility? Any > help would be greatly appreciated. Yes. During World War 2, I'll say 1944, numerous solid trains of Virginian coal gondolas of the 6-axle variety passed through Latrobe, Pa on their way to Pittsburgh (loaded) or eastward empty. There were also several trains of N&W 6-axle gons. Probably more of the N&W than VGN. As I recall each train was N&W or VGN, never a mix of the two. I have no clue where they arrived on PRR rails, and only assume they were going to Pittsburgh. At age 8, your horizons are pretty close to home. Not long after that, Railroad magazine published an article on the VGN or N&W cars or both, which stated "These cars never leave home rails." That conflict with reality as I knew it wedged the image of those trains into my memory. But these were not 1 or 2 cars, more like 40 or 50 and nothing else in the train. One thought. One of the N&W gons was set out empty at Latrobe for some reason and remained there for a week or two. Bad order of some sort, I suppose. One could thus have a car or two which got separated from the main group. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:32:14 -0800 From: Stueart Engineering Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? This comes as no surprise. The B&O camelback 4-6-0 in the St. Louis museum has the front driver blind and the lead truck only piviots. It does not have any swing motion to it. What might be surprising is that th PRR used it so late. But than at that time, the PRR mechanical was not very advanced, they were behind the leaders in technology of loco building. This of course made a dramatic change in the next 10 years. Regards, Doug VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/20/00 2:52:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, DPoole17 writes: > > << An ATLANTIC is a 4-4-2 on the PRR. If you had a blind driver on an > ATLANTIC it wouldn't stay on the track. Might you mean a PACIFIC?? >> > > I was waiting for someone to question that - > On the PRR you learn never to say never - but the answer is not the one that > I would have guessed > (blind rear drivers - with a rigid trailing truck) PRR Class E-1, 4-4-2, had > blind LEAD drivers > > According to the March 1974 Keystone: "the most unique use of plain > tires, anywhere, occurred on the three class E-1 locomotives built in 1899. " > "It is rather difficult to imagine a locomotive with only two pairs of > drivers being able to operate without flanges on both pairs. This arrangement > was possible because the front truck was rigidly pivoted to the engine frame > and thus held the front of the engine constantly in line with the track. The > engine truck provided all the guiding on the curves and held the front half > of the locomotive on the rails" > "Another unusual arrangement of plain tires was on the HC1s, where the > fourth pair of drivers were plain and the third pair was flanged, the reverse > of what would be expected." On the rear engine axles five and eight had > flanged tires, while six and seven were plain. > I don't know how the model looks, but according the Prophet (John M. III) > the ex N&W Class HH-1 had all 16 drivers flanged > Dick Ross > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Unreadable Messages Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:31:50 -0500 Hi Jerry. All mine are coming through fine. I get the digest, and sometimes I wish they wouldn't. Does it bug anyone else that the same message gets added to, and added to, until when a person is simply making a short comment about a posting, he has the12 other previous complete e-mails in the thread attached to his message? It burns my you-know-what folks, because it makes it extremely difficult to find the message headers when you get the list in digest form. I keep getting the same messages, over and over and over again, tacked on to other people's replies. Just a reminder folks, net etiquette suggests that you should clip off any unneccessary portions of the previous message before sending a reply. There. I feel better now. ;-) Pat Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:55:18 -0600 From: Jeff Toreki Subject: [PRR] N Scale cabin car decals? Just curious, does anyone know if there are any companies out there that make decals in N scale for cabin cars from the 50s and 60s? I've got a couple of undec Key units and would like to do one with shadow keystone and one in the later focal orange scheme, but am currently stymied by lack of suitable decals. I am amazed that with all of the decals that Microscale produces, including for small shortlines and obscure/rare/one-of-a-kind paint schemes, they do not make decals for more PRR stuff. Thanks in advance for any info. Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/20/00 From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:51:13 -0600 From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:17:36 -0500 wrote: Also coming are a whole box of maps lent to me by a very patient lister...I've had them for two months now but have been backlogged! And I have a couple of more to send to you also. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Off-Subject, slightly:VGN "Battleship" Gondolas Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:47:41 -0500 I don't know if they ever ran on PRR tracks, but they certainly are beautiful. The first of the Battleship gons appeared on the N&W in 1920 which forced the other coal haulers to build simiar equip. I think these super coal haulers are really neat. See Model Railroader, Jan. 1988, pg 88 and 89. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Eichhorn@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 1:00 PM Subject: [PRR] Off-Subject, slightly:VGN "Battleship" Gondolas >Gents, >Would a Virginian, "Battleship" gondola ever have ventured into the PRR >system and become part of a Pennsy freight haul? These big old monsters have >always appealed to me, and I would like to add one or two to my collection. I >would like them to fit into the 1945-1955 theme, is that a possibility? Any >help would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, >George > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:53:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DN Tower, not Verona In a message dated 01/20/2000 12:52:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << There has been a thread on DN Tower, at or near Verona, Pa. running in the past few days. Late last night, the 1923 CT1000 told me there was a DN Tower 1 1/2 miles west of Burgettstown, Pa. on the Panhandle Div. I didn't take the time to see if the 1945 CT1000 said the same thing. Since there is no fundamental reason preventing having a DN Tower on each division, I wonder how many there were? >> There was indeed a DN tower west of Burgettstown at Dinsmore. The tower was dimantled when the line was realigned and the tunnel at Dinsmore daylighted. (The Building of the Pan Handle Division of the PEnnsylvania Railroad by Cecil G. Howell privately published 1995) No date is given for the daylighting of the tunnel. DN is not shown in the ETT for the division in Sept. 1948. Mr Howell was a block operator on the Pan Handle for 44 years retiring in 1991. The DN tower in Verona was still in existence in 1948. There was a discussion of the build of DN in Verona last year. I don't recall if a firm date was ever established. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:15:07 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Off-Subject, slightly:VGN "Battleship" Gondolas Hi George, As to the VGN battleship gons, I don't know. I did hear (verbally) from an old-timer whose house has a good view of Middle-division tracks, that during WW2 N&W battleship gons operated on the Middle Division. I *have* seen a published photo of VGN battleship gons operating on the C&O, but that's not what you asked... - Claus > Would a Virginian, "Battleship" gondola ever have ventured into the PRR > system and become part of a Pennsy freight haul? These big old monsters have > always appealed to me, and I would like to add one or two to my collection. I > would like them to fit into the 1945-1955 theme, is that a possibility? Any > help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:01:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? In a message dated 1/20/2000 2:52:17 PM Central Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << "It is rather difficult to imagine a locomotive with only two pairs of drivers being able to operate without flanges on both pairs >> OK, I know someone is going to challenge me to find the source, but somewhere in my Pennsy library is a statement that some of the first I-1's had only one set of flanged drivers. I don't know if the statement is true or not but I do know I read it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:14:10 -0500 Also, if you use Outlook Express you can go into the options and set it up so the original message is not included in your reply at all (note this is the case here). Works for me. Rick S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:16:11 -0500 Also if you use AOL you can't read HTML. The AOL users need to really press for this. It's one of the biggest reasons I switched. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:21:02 -0500 I already gave my 2 cents about AOL & HTML, but I forgot to suggest that people send their posts in plain text when posting to the list if they want everyone to be able to read them? Just a thought... Rick S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:54:37 -0700 Bob and list, I really don't think so. However, in Pennsy Power 1, they state that the I1s's were built with flanges on the first and fifth driver sets. Maybe this is what you saw. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? >In a message dated 1/20/2000 2:52:17 PM Central Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com >writes: > ><< "It is rather difficult to imagine a locomotive with only two pairs of > drivers being able to operate without flanges on both pairs >> > >OK, I know someone is going to challenge me to find the source, but somewhere >in my Pennsy library is a statement that some of the first I-1's had only one >set of flanged drivers. I don't know if the statement is true or not but I >do know I read it. > >Bob Zoeller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser M-1a Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:28:11 -0800 Frank--I answer the tender part of your query. Bowser's "Long Haul Tender" is an accurate 210F75 tender. It is appropriate for all the M1a's as built and for most of them throughout their service lives. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 01:37:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? In a message dated 1/20/2000 9:10:20 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote : << OK, I know someone is going to challenge me to find the source, but somewhere in my Pennsy library is a statement that some of the first I-1's had only one set of flanged drivers. I don't know if the statement is true or not but I do know I read it. >> Several people have questioned me on this, so before we waste too much bandwidth, I'll withdraw this statement until I can find the quote. In "rounding up the usual suspects", that is, sources, they pretty much agree on only (!)the middle 3 sets of drivers being blind early on. Either I "misremembered" the statement or the locomotive type. However, I still haven't found the exact phrase in context that I remember. Bob (am I in more trouble when I can't remember things or when I remember things that weren't there?) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:27:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. In a message dated 1/19/2000 11:44:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, angmac@mindspring.com writes: << YES especially if you put on a CD. Imagine all of the Keystones on a CD set! >> And that's all you and I can do, is to imagine the Keystone on CD. It's an appealing idea (and discussed several times on PRR-Talk in at least the last two years), but not possible (I'm told). As Jerry Britton and others have found to our sorrow, putting up on CD a magazine not electronically generated in the first place presents some problems. Take for example the oft-sought Summer 1988 Keystone, with its article by Brady McGuire on PRR boxcar lettering. The photos for that article came from at least a half dozen places, and after publication were returned to the owners. Just between you and me, it would be just as easy 20 years later to update that article with new photos as it would to recreate it! (BTW, Brady agrees with me on this). Thus, a really good electronic copy of that article would be very hard to achieve. Multiply this by number of magazines times number of articles, factor in that some of the people involved have now marked up their Last Run, and you have an impossible job. Best you could hope for is to scan the text. I think those who considered this seriously feel that a text-only CD of the Keystone's back issues would just not sell that well. If asked, I believe Chuck Blardone, long-suffering editor of the Keystone, would say the same. There are no easy answers here! So it's probably best to build up a collection of old Keystones -- or cultivate a friend who has. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:50:19 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: T1 kit If you are an accomplished scratchbuilder, the kit might be worth checking out. In the O scale line, at least, instructions are minimal. I honestly do not know what you would get if you purchased a built up T1, and am not implying any hidden meaning by that statement. Jan at least should know what he had in mind when he designed the kit components. LWS kits are NOT easy to build. Steve Bartlett Subject: T1 kit From: "Dave Pfeiffer" Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:59:43 -0500 I received my February issue of Railmodel Journal yesterday, and there is an ad on page 70 for the Locomotive Workshop offering T1's in HO and O, kit or built up. Is this new or something I missed before? Anyone familiar with these products? Thanks. Sorry if this is a repeat. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:09:41 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > OK, I know someone is going to challenge me to find the source, but somewhere > in my Pennsy library is a statement that some of the first I-1's had only one > set of flanged drivers. I don't know if the statement is true or not but I > do know I read it. > > Hi Bob: In the video, "Steam on the Horseshoe Curve", the narrator states the the decapod had but a "single set of flanged drivers". All I can say is ...... No Way! Maybe this is what you're thinking of. This guy, like many narrators, may not be a true railroad man! Regards, Larry > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: [PRR] HO Brass Box Swap? Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:12:56 -0500 I have a box for an PFM HO PRR L1 2-8-2 which hold a PFM I1 2-10-0. By any chance is there anyone out there with the box for an I1 interested in swapping for an L1 box? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:34:59 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages > From: "Rick Schoch" > To: "W. Terry Stuart" , > "Jerry Britton" > , , > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:21:02 -0500 > Organization: none > I already gave my 2 cents about AOL & HTML, but I forgot to suggest that > people send their posts in plain text when posting to the list if they want > everyone to be able to read them? Just a thought... > > Rick S. An excellent idea. Why should someone have to have a reader that matches what the sender uses to read their messages? It's like saying that I use MS Outlook and everyone must. I happen to use Pegasus and I have been fortunate enough to be able to scroll the 75 miles to the right when the sender doesn't use returns or line breaks. Some software will truncate the lines. That makes an unreadable message and I am sure that many here have that problem. The problem is with the sender, not the server or reader. No message should be without linebreaks or in html if you want everyone to read it. My 2 cents for what it's worth... Roger Roger Hensley 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:50:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Unreadable Messages From: Jerry Britton On 1/21/00 4:34 AM, Roger P. Hensley (rhensley@anderson.cioe.com) wrote: >> I already gave my 2 cents about AOL & HTML, but I forgot to suggest that >> people send their posts in plain text when posting to the list if they want >> everyone to be able to read them? Just a thought... > > An excellent idea. Why should someone have to have a reader that > matches what the sender uses to read their messages? It's like > saying that I use MS Outlook and everyone must. I happen to use > Pegasus and I have been fortunate enough to be able to scroll > the 75 miles to the right when the sender doesn't use returns or > line breaks. Some software will truncate the lines. That makes > an unreadable message and I am sure that many here have that > problem. > > The problem is with the sender, not the server or reader. No message > should be without linebreaks or in html if you want everyone to > read it. Just an FYI... The railroad lists of DSOP.COM are set to disallow posts which contain attachments. Until recent revs of e-mail clients, e-mails sent with HTML were viewed as attachments. It was great then, as it would get bounced back to the sender. However, the more recent revs of e-mail clients are able to send it within the body, making it undetectable to the listserv as HTML. It's just plain text. I, too, have HTML turned off in my e-mail client (MS Outlook Express). I don't need all the extra fluff. Keep it simple! Unfortunately, I can't control the sender. I can only ask that list subscribers not send in HTML. Thank you. --Listmeister --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:49:05 -0500 From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? Larry Reynolds wrote: > In the video, "Steam on the Horseshoe Curve", the narrator states the the decapod > had but a "single set of flanged drivers". All I can say is ...... No Way! > Maybe this is what you're thinking of. This guy, like many narrators, may not be > a true railroad man! How about the person who wrote the script? They wouldn't be a true railroad perosn either. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:14:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? In the video, "Steam on the Horseshoe Curve", the narrator states the the decapod > had but a "single set of flanged drivers". All I can say is ...... No Way! > Maybe this is what you're thinking of. This guy, like many narrators, may not be > a true railroad man! Be careful what you hear and choose to believe! There's an N&W video that has Pacific #578 in a sequence and the narrator flatly states "Here we see the ONLY Pacific ever owned by the N&W...." Right! Take everything you see, hear and read with a grain of salt and consider how easy and often it is that people screw up facts with opinions and unsubstantiated facts. Many references to N&W K-2 streamlined 4-8-2's call them "J's" and while the streamlining is similar they are very different machines. The Pennsy used identical or very similar boilers on different types and classes of engines.... that doesn't make a K-4 an L-1! My experience with video narrators is that they often make mistakes. Listen to one of the best videos....GLORY MACHINES..........the guy makes one after the other. Central Motors? Try General Motors! There are enough there to keep the most fastidious nitpicker happy and working the rewind button like crazy. Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:16:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. In a message dated 01/21/2000 10:37:22 AM Central Standard Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: << Its not a pipe dream. Look at National Geographic as an example. Their CD ROM set is all JPG image files of the magazine pages. You get the text and picures with color. No big deal. The Keystone's pages could be scanned and saved as JPG image files and a search program added to help find the article like NG has done. >> Drew is right. Although I am VP of a VAR for a browser-based text search mechanism,we can also do a WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get) system ala the National Geographic, or, as we are currently proposing to a client, a WYSIWYG plus a separate text file (with pasted images) which could be searchable in a sophisticated manner. The problem is one of cost. I had put the society on the backburner before approaching them, because I believe there may be sticker shock, considering the limited funds. If the membership was satisfied with the National Geographic search mechanism, it would be less, of course. They got 110 years on 31 CD-ROMs for $100. But they are spreading it over a lot more than a thousand or so buyers. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:46:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. In a message dated 01/21/2000 11:37:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: > ts not a pipe dream. Look at National Geographic as an example. Their CD > ROM set is all JPG image files of the magazine pages. You get the text and > picures with color. No big deal. The Keystone's pages could be scanned and > saved as JPG image files and a search program added to help find the > article like NG has done. > Drew: You are absolutely correct that each page can be scanned and saved as a graphic. I am deeply involved with an organization which is doing just this with over 125 years of proceedings from meetings. In fact, we are having an index created which will link the user to the image file containing the desired information. The index is being created manually from the scans. While labor intensive the cost at $15 per hour is not excessive. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:13:58 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. IMHO, as a non computer expert, a text file with separate photo files would be the cheapest/easiest way to do this. These files would load and handle much more easily than huge jpg's that cover a whole page. Editing and correcting the scans of the text would also be easier, as would searching for words and phrases--any word processor would work if they were in a standard (?MSWord) format. The result would not look "exactly" like the Keystone but would serve the purpose that I think most of us would want, which is to be able to have a complete set of the Keystone. And I think that many of us would pay for the privledge. Scanners and CD-ROM burners are a cheap and easy way to handle this type of material and the end user cost is not bad IF the copyright owners of the text and photos allow reproduction. The main expense would be labor to scan and edit the materials. Finally, a question: Isn't the Keystone already indexed?? If so, all that is needed is a file on the CD-ROM of the Indexes. JimMcDaniel, wishing I had a set of Keystones, especially the ?1991 issue about the Cheaspeake Bay Car Floats (hint, hint, hint.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:39:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. I never truely understood the "we can't do it" philosophy...now I do - they are trying too hard, and I have to disagree with the nay sayers... A scanned collection of the Keystone would be worth every penny of $150 to me. As I see it, it is completely doable ala National Geographic, and there are multiple options: 1) Just scan every page 2) Scan text and photos seperately - each at appropriate resolutions 3) Scan text and photos seperately and run the text through OCR to generate a "digital text version" ready for indexing searching etc. Come on, I'll settle for #1!!!!!!! Just do it. Another question this brings up is what "original" material do we have of the Keystone...yeah the photos were returned to the owners, but the magazine wasn't printed directly from the photos...where is that material, which could be used to make same as the original Keystone quality reprints. Heck, the Philly chapter manages to collate and re-release issues of the highline suchas the 3 in 1 issue on the Octoraro Branch... As always, Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. Date: Fri, 21 Jan 100 16:10:49 -0500 (EST) Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. scribit: > I never truely understood the "we can't do it" philosophy...now I do - they > are trying too hard, and I have to disagree with the nay sayers... > A scanned collection of the Keystone would be worth every penny of $150 to > me. As I see it, it is completely doable ala National Geographic, and > there are multiple options: This has been debated on this list before. One of the main issues as I recall it is that the _Keystone_ does not demand tranfer of copyright to the PRRT&HS. Thus, to reprint, one would have to get permission of every author involved. Some may not give such permission. Of course, those photos in the Keystones that are within the public domain, and any work done (i.e. text written) with the support of public funds, does not hold copyright. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:30:39 -0500 This is a picture of an I1 in Pennsy Power I showing the center pair of drivers blind & the rest flanged. Mr. Staufer affirms they were built with flanges on the 1st & 5th pair only as we all know. Maybe that engine was used west of Crestline only ;) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:31:01 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. > I never truely understood the "we can't do it" philosophy...now I do - they > are trying too hard, and I have to disagree with the nay sayers... > > A scanned collection of the Keystone would be worth every penny of $150 to > me. As I see it, it is completely doable ala National Geographic, and > there are multiple options: > > 1) Just scan every page > 2) Scan text and photos seperately - each at appropriate resolutions > 3) Scan text and photos seperately and run the text through OCR to > generate a "digital text version" ready for indexing searching etc. > > Come on, I'll settle for #1!!!!!!! Just do it. I'd "just do it" for my own use, but lacking old Keystones and not particularly wanting to spend like $1000 or more acquiring a useful number of issues there's no point. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:36:11 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. Any copyright lawyers lurking out there? Is the original relaease given to the Keystone for the original publication still applicable since only the media has changed from paper to plastic? Another way around this is to only reprint what is public domain and/or copyright cleared. Not as good as a complete selection but better than nothing. JimMcDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:01:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. Folks, I gotta wonder about some of this as well. Copyright permission from the authors? Since when? Look on the inside cover of a Keystone: permission to copy must come from the PRRT&HS, not the authors of articles. Seems to me when i've had articles published they became the property of the publication, and no one had to get my permission once I transferred ownership of the material. Maybe this case is different, so I can't say one way or the other. But it sure makes me wonder about the actual reasons. I realize it's the vilest heresy, but I'm wondering about renewing membership this year anyway. That depends on whether I want to go to Harrisburg again this year; no big deal if I don't as it's been arbitrarily decided to have the nest three conventions held there in any event. Been there, done that. And you can always get the Keystone from D&S Hobby. I dunno. On CD? There'll be a dozen reasons why not. Too bad, too. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:41:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- not. In a message dated 01/21/2000 3:48:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Another question this brings up is what "original" material do we have of the Keystone...yeah the photos were returned to the owners, but the magazine wasn't printed directly from the photos...where is that material, which could be used to make same as the original Keystone quality reprints. Heck, the Philly chapter manages to collate and re-release issues of the highline suchas the 3 in 1 issue on the Octoraro Branch... >> Bruce: I doubt the original masters are available. I know about 5 years ago, the original color covers were being sold at one of the conventions to offset some of the cost of the Keystone. If the covers were disposed of, it is probably a safe bet that text masters were as well. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:38:28 -0800 As many of you might know my special interest as a PRR historian is the Renovo Yards at Renovo Pa. Two Keystone articles were done on the yards. Most of the photos in the latest one I was able to obtain from the original photographer, a Renovo native still living in South Renovo. The other issue from 1981 has a number of photos in it. I received permission to have these Xeroxed from the PRRT&HS.(Don't ask details!) The point is, I had them done at Kinkos and blown up, photographic quality, for certain details: the round house, ice house, coaling tower, etc.. Even enlarged to 11X17 from portions approximately 2X3 of photos, these pictures came out quite nice. When I showed them to others they could not believe the clarity when I told them the source. I also had 1968 and 1970 issues done photo quality the entire years. This cost about $40 for both years ($20/yr.). They came out as good, if not better than the originals . I say better because the paper quality of the copies was a smoother surface so the photos look less grainy than the originals. One can not tell the difference except the copies look newer than the originals. I can see no reason why this can not be done on CD. If not on CD, why not just make copies in magazine form? Other societies, e.g. N&W, offer copies of their originals so why can't the PRRT&HS. Another question is:if a copy is made not for resale is this a violation of copyright law? If I tape a videotape and give it to friend, is that a violation of copyright law. If not what deters one from copying a keystone for a friend? --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:59:20 -0800 Don't forget, if a complete high-quality set of Keystones on CD became available, those with extensive collections of the originals would probably find that their sets had suddenly become a lot less valuable. Might be quite an incentive for some to resist the CD project, no? Mark T. Evans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:51:03 -0000 I've heard this statement on the commentary of the Sunday River video 'Steam on Horsehoe Curve' along with other howlers and eccentric stuff on the same tape. It's fun to imagine the track holding ability of a ten coupled loco 'with but a single pair of flanged drivers......' (while this is being commented upon the tape shows a J1 !) Regards, John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District MRS website at its new URL: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ndmrs.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: 21 January 2000 06:37 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATLANTIC??? > In a message dated 1/20/2000 9:10:20 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote : > > << OK, I know someone is going to challenge me to find the source, but > somewhere > in my Pennsy library is a statement that some of the first I-1's had only > one > set of flanged drivers. I don't know if the statement is true or not but I > do know I read it. >> > > Several people have questioned me on this, so before we waste too much > bandwidth, I'll withdraw this statement until I can find the quote. In > "rounding up the usual suspects", that is, sources, they pretty much agree on > only (!)the middle 3 sets of drivers being blind early on. Either I > "misremembered" the statement or the locomotive type. However, I still > haven't found the exact phrase in context that I remember. > > Bob (am I in more trouble when I can't remember things or when I remember > things that weren't there?) Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:49:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone I disagree. The original copies in anyone's library would be worth more in the long run if kept in good condition as there would be fewer around. There may come a day in years to come that "paper books" will be a thing of the past! Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:18:14 -0700 Greg and all, -----Original Message----- From: Greg Stone To: PRR talk Date: Friday, January 21, 2000 8:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Keystone Another question is:if a copy is made not for resale is this a >violation of copyright law? Simple answer is yes. If I tape a videotape and give it to friend, is >that a violation of copyright law. Again, yes. Both of these are violations of copyright law. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:20:44 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone My understanding of copyright law (at least for Medical Education purposes) is that copyrighted material can be copied for 1) personal use--but you can't legally give that copy to a friend, 2) for classroom/educational use in a school college, etc, 3) for research purposes as long as credit is given if he research is published. The possibility of doing a CD-ROM seems to hinge on whether or not the copyright was transfered to the Keystone for the material it published (the most common situation in the academic/medical press) or if the copyright remained with the authors who merely gave the Keystone permission to publish it. JimMcDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:54:28 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser M-1a --Boundary_(ID_pVy27EFfEo9MVkq/zkZGLg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, I'd like to address the second question first. If I may suggest, start out with a simpler Bowser kit, like their A5s first. It's their least complicated kit. I've built eight Bowser steamers at last count (the first when I was 17). For your first kit, I'd highly recommend simplicity; the M1a kit has its virtues (I'll address these later, along with the vices), but it has a large parts count. The A5s kit (or, if you want you could build the G5s or H9s) has only two driver sets, two side rods, and the valve gear is very straightforward. It has fewer things that can go wrong for the neophyte, in other words. Please don't think I'm disparaging your abilities; I speak from personal experience and I want your first kit to be a big success so that you can move on to that M1 in a few more kits. My first Bowser steamer was an H9s; at 17, it was a stretch for my abilities (as far as getting it to run smoothly), and I had some difficulties with my A5s when it came out (mostly dealing with attaching the superdetail kit). Whatever kit you buy, pay very close attention to the running gear and valve gear. I polish the valve gear pieces with fine sandpaper (400 grit) to remove any rough edges. Polish the EDGES ONLY of the driver slots in the main frame. Make sure that none of the side or main rods have flash on them, and while you're at it, check the crossheads for flash as well. Needle files and sandpaper will ensure that you have a smoothly running chassis. If you do build the M1a/M1, add only one driver set at a time to the chassis; any binds or problems can then be traced to the parts just added. Generally speaking, don't enlarge the holes in the side rods any more than a tiny fraction; the binding is usually caused by flash, and if you enlarge the holes too much, you'll create binds from side rod slop. A logical progression, kitwise, would be to start with the A5s, move on to the H9s (or, perhaps an L1s or K4s) and then build the M1a. Now, as far as Bowser's M1a kit goes, there have been mixed opinions on the list. As Steve Hoxie has mentioned, the tender is accurate. There is an issue with the firebox; it doesn't slope to the rear and doesn't taper in width. To some this is a damning flaw and another example of Bowser's callousness. In my opinion only, I would live with the firebox issue. I don't have the budget to buy brass at this point in my life, so I compromise a bit. I cheerfully run my T1 duplex with the two screws in the top of the boiler and the high sided tender, and I, personally, am content. As far as adding the superdetail kit, you'll want to center punch each hole you drill. I use a drywall screw and a hammer to do the job; they work well and are cheap. Use lots of oil (I use 3 in one oil, but you could use other kinds) when drilling holes; you'll break a lot of drill bits at first (ask me how I know this) if you don't. If you're frustrated with brass wire for piping the feedwater heater and injector, try soft copper wire (you can buy small electrical wire at any hardware store; you'll just have to strip the insulation; try 20 gauge wire to start and experiment with the various sizes). Jerry and I have been through considerable heartbreak with Alco Products; they're not in production at present. The DC71 pulls very well, but I prefer flywheels. To each his or her own. Once again, I do this not to dissuade you, but to keep you from making some of the mistakes I made. I recently rebuilt my H9s into an H10s; I dissassembled the engine down to the frame and put things back together slowly and carefully using all the tricks I've learned over the years, and the engine ran much better. Anyway, with a little patience (and love for PRR steam) you will succeed. Doug Frank Bagrash wrote: > Hi, Would anybody care to comment upon the Bowser M1a kit? I'm looking > for information on its fidelity to the prototype, tender accuracy, > running characteristics, ease of construction, availability of > repowering options (Helix Humper?), etc. This would also be my first > Bowser locomitve kit. Are upgrades available to increase its fidelity? > Will it pull paint off a wall? Thanmks in advance. > > Frank > > -- > Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 714-278-2669 > Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (Fax) > P.O. Box 6846 > California State University > Fullerton, California 92834-6846 > E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu > Boogie gently, babies > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --Boundary_(ID_pVy27EFfEo9MVkq/zkZGLg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank,

I'd like to address the second question first.  If I may suggest, start out with a simpler Bowser kit, like their A5s first.  It's their least complicated kit.  I've built eight Bowser steamers at last count (the first when I was 17).  For your first kit, I'd highly recommend simplicity; the M1a kit has its virtues (I'll address these later, along with the vices), but it has a large parts count.  The A5s kit (or, if you want you could build the G5s or H9s) has only two driver sets, two side rods, and the valve gear is very straightforward.  It has fewer things that can go wrong for the neophyte, in other words.  Please don't think I'm disparaging your abilities; I speak from personal experience and I want your first kit to be a big success so that you can move on to that M1 in a few more kits.

My first Bowser steamer was an H9s; at 17, it was a stretch for my abilities (as far as getting it to run smoothly), and I had some difficulties with my A5s when it came out (mostly dealing with attaching the superdetail kit).

Whatever kit you buy, pay very close attention to the running gear and valve gear.  I polish the valve gear pieces with fine sandpaper (400 grit) to remove any rough edges.  Polish the EDGES ONLY of the driver slots in the main frame.  Make sure that none of the side or main rods have flash on them, and while you're at it, check the crossheads for flash as well.  Needle files and sandpaper will ensure that you have a smoothly running chassis.

If you do build the M1a/M1, add only one driver set at a time to the chassis; any binds or problems can then be traced to the parts just added.  Generally speaking, don't enlarge the holes in the side rods any more than a tiny fraction; the binding is usually caused by flash, and if you enlarge the holes too much, you'll create binds from side rod slop.

A logical progression, kitwise, would be to start with the A5s, move on to the H9s (or, perhaps an L1s or K4s) and then build the M1a.

Now, as far as Bowser's M1a kit goes, there have been mixed opinions on the list.  As Steve Hoxie has mentioned, the tender is accurate.  There is an issue with the firebox; it doesn't slope to the rear and doesn't taper in width.  To some this is a damning flaw and another example of Bowser's callousness.  In my opinion only, I would live with the firebox issue.  I don't have the budget to buy brass at this point in my life, so I compromise a bit.  I cheerfully run my T1 duplex with the two screws in the top of the boiler and the high sided tender, and I, personally, am content.

As far as adding the superdetail kit, you'll want to center punch each hole you drill.  I use a drywall screw and a hammer to do the job; they work well and are cheap.  Use lots of oil (I use 3 in one oil, but you could use other kinds) when drilling holes; you'll break a lot of drill bits at first (ask me how I know this) if you don't.  If you're frustrated with brass wire for piping the feedwater heater and injector, try soft copper wire (you can buy small electrical wire at any hardware store; you'll just have to strip the insulation; try 20 gauge wire to start and experiment with the various sizes).

Jerry and I have been through considerable heartbreak with Alco Products; they're not in production at present.  The DC71 pulls very well, but I prefer flywheels.  To each his or her own.

Once again, I do this not to dissuade you, but to keep you from making some of the mistakes I made.  I recently rebuilt my H9s into an H10s; I dissassembled the engine down to the frame and put things back together slowly and carefully using all the tricks I've learned over the years, and the engine ran much better.  Anyway, with a little patience (and love for PRR steam) you will succeed.

Doug

Frank Bagrash wrote:

Hi, Would anybody care to comment upon the Bowser M1a kit? I'm looking
for information on its fidelity to the prototype, tender accuracy,
running characteristics, ease of construction, availability of
repowering options (Helix Humper?), etc. This would also be my first
Bowser locomitve kit. Are upgrades available to increase its fidelity?
Will it pull paint off a wall? Thanmks in advance.

Frank

--
Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D.                  714-278-2669
Department of Psychology                 714-278-7134 (Fax)
P.O. Box 6846
California State University
Fullerton, California 92834-6846
E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu
Boogie gently, babies

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--Boundary_(ID_pVy27EFfEo9MVkq/zkZGLg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:08:27 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Electric Pictorial --Boundary_(ID_oP/ftP986B8Cv5HfK54aPg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, I just received (courtesy of Jerry) Withers' Pennsy Electric Pictorial. Like Volkmer's Pennsy Electric Years, it is a must-have. The book is very well laid out, in a horizontal format (this does particular justice to the GG1). The photographs are reproduced nicely (the worst I can say about the book is that roster views predominate, but it does make it easier to model a particular engine) and they're large enough and clear enough to make modelling easy. Now, if we could get Withers to do a Pennsy Steam Pictorial...... Doug --Boundary_(ID_oP/ftP986B8Cv5HfK54aPg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,

I just received (courtesy of Jerry) Withers' Pennsy Electric Pictorial.  Like Volkmer's Pennsy Electric Years, it is a must-have.  The book is very well laid out, in a horizontal format (this does particular justice to the GG1).  The photographs are reproduced nicely (the worst I can say about the book is that roster views predominate, but it does make it easier to model a particular engine) and they're large enough and clear enough to make modelling easy.

Now, if we could get Withers to do a Pennsy Steam Pictorial......

Doug --Boundary_(ID_oP/ftP986B8Cv5HfK54aPg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] a sighting Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:14:36 -0500 Seems to me that way back towards early 1900's (or earlier) there were several more towers around that area. Triumph I is where I remember seeing details. I'm going from memory, so watch out! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com To: jpbtrans@gateway.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, January 17, 2000 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] a sighting >In a message dated 01/17/2000 1:12:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jpbtrans@gateway.net writes: > ><< Some time ago, I asked the list for info on a tower that was between > Horseshoe Curve and MG. I have forgotten if it was IA or AI. But, a > question. What did it control? I know that MG had crossovers. Were there > other crossovers in the area? > >> >ETT No. 11 Sept 26 1948 lists the following interlocking/interlocking >stations/block stations in service between Slope and Cresson >GY mp 3.3 interlocking, interlocking station and block station >MG mp 7.1 interlocking, interlocking station and block station >BF mp 10.2 interlocking >SF mp 10.9 interlocking >UN mp 12.0 interlocking >AR mp 12.0 interlocking, interlocking station, block station >MO mp 14 interlocking, interlocking station, block station > >BF and UN as emergency blovk stations and will be in service only when opened >by train order, BF SF and UN were operated from AR SF controlled the New >Portage branch access > >From 1950's track charts GY appears to have been located at signal bridge >2407 and may have controlled the signals there (pure speculation). > >Rich Orr > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 16:08:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: F unit MU hatch Hey Yuze Gize, Mark is right, I have focused mostly on the Highliner shell as it is what I was supplied and I would not likely buy a finished shell, but we did see the underframe at Chicago and the underframe has the options for the different fuel tanks and so forth. Again, mark points out a very credible fix for the MU nose door. This would eliminate the oversized line that might be tooled in the shell. Good point. Greg Martin In a message Mark Kerlick writes: << Greg The easy way is to use to Microscale decal of this included on the EMD number board set. You may want to mention that the Athearn frame and fuel tank is superior as far as those of us who want a more modern version. Also that the side skirting is easily cut off with nippers. Mark >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 16:41:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser M-1a In a message dated 1/22/2000 11:56:15 AM Central Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << Jerry and I have been through considerable heartbreak with Alco Products; they're not in production at present. The DC71 pulls very well, but I prefer flywheels. To each his or her own. >> I've got two DC71s (on a K4 and an I1 which run smooth as can be, but I try and eliminate open frame motors on DCC to conserve power consumption. I am totally demoralized by the fact I have a 2-motor T1 and delayed ordering an Alco Products Helix humper kit. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 17:34:52 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR FP-7A #4359 nee 9859 Rick and all, Interesting question on just how many lives this cat had. Lets start with the FP-7 as the parallel is not a good one until after the wreck... EMD FP-7A # 9859 delivered to PRR as a class EFP-15 builders #12437 in July/August 1952. It was delivered in DGLE (AKA, LDGE & Brunswick Green as well as KCS Green) with a single narrow stripe of PRR Buff (Dulux Gold). I t was renumbered to pre-merger #4359. It was involved in an accident in 1964/65 in a collision near Carnegie, PA resulting in a needed nose repair. Thanks, Mr. Volkmer for filling in the gap! The nose repair requires the grafting of a FT nose sacrificed from an ex-GN Y-1A (5011) by PRR to use as a source of parts for other Y class locomotives on the roster. The unit survives into Penn Central and is involved in another accident near Ft. Wayne, IN and was scrapped in 1970. Unfortunately a relatively short life in today's terms of engine life, just less that 20 years. This is a reference from Bert Pennypacker's CROSS CONTINENT ELECTRICS (NJ International, Inc.) ... "The only serious accident ever to involve a Y 1 occurs in 1945 as No. 5011 was hauling the westbound train 27, the Fast mail... 5011 suddenly derailed (cause unknown) and rolled down the steep embankment, destroying the cab. The rebuild took the form of a streamliner using a new FT diesel-nose ends purchased from EMD. The locomotive was designated class Y1A." PRR purchases 8 units from the GN in August of 1956 at scrape prices and sends all 8 units to Altoona for refitting. The only unit not to receive an active PRR road number is 5011 the rest are reclassed FF-2 and receive numbers 1 through 7 (inclusive). 5011 is used as "hanger queen" for parts and gladly gives up her nose to FP-7 #4359 after the accident. So as you can see the sacrifice was a short fix as at least 19 FP-7's made it beyond 1973 in Penn Central but these two jinxed locomotives days were numbered. In a message RickTipton writes: << In a message dated 1/19/2000 2:48:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << Dan and all, You are correct, 4359 was involve in an accident and had the nose replace with a FT nose from one of the Y class electrics recycled from Great Northern. This would make an interesting conversion from the ATLAS/CON COR model. Now I am going to have to research the date of the accident to see whether this will become my FP-7 I model. Greg Martin >> Hi Greg, I forget at this point whether the EMD noses used on the GN electric were new assemblies from EMD, or if they were off wrecks. If the latter, then the nose on 4359 "led three lives." Silly question -- how long did 4359 survive? Rick Tipton >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:43:06 EST Subject: [PRR] P5a fuel tanks Do I assume corretcly that the tapered projection at one end of the engine under the car body and over the lead truck is the oil fuel tank for the boiler? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:44:24 EST Subject: [PRR] Bowser E6 Has anybody else had a problem with one of these having a severe case of the wobbles? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:47:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 It seems to me alot of 2 drivered models have the wobble problems. Those drivers have to be quartered exactly or the wobbles ye will have. Once I acquired my Key E3sd and E-7s did I rid my atlantic wobbles. My first atlantic was a Bowser and I could never fix that stuborn problem. Good Luck...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:27:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Daytime Passenger Trains In a message dated 1/19/2000 5:24:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, rholden@superpa.net writes: << Hi! Everyone...I have been viewing a number of different Pennsy videos and I am seeing a daytime passenger train. I see that it features a number of P85B coaches, so I assume that it is a St.Louis train? If so, which one ran in daytime? Some of the narrative indicates they are mail or express trains...not so...not with full diners and coaches. Any help? >> In working up a presentation on the Pennsy in Dayton OH, it became clear to me why these descriptions get confused. In the late-1960's era that I model, the PRR ran a fleet of low-numbered trains like #6, #10, #12, and #13 between New York and St. Louis, carrying headend equipment and, at most, a rider coach. But if you consult a 1940's timetable, some of these trains carried coaches, a diner, and sleepers. For example, I found a Richard D. Acton, Sr. picture of #6 at Smithville Road in Dayton, in the 40's. It is at the top of the East Dayton grade (1.6%), is pulled by double-headed K4's, and appears to have passenger cars behind a sizeable chunk of headend cars. But a #6 by the PC merger was a couple of E's with just the headend cars. A quick flip through Jack Fravert's collection of timetables shows: Dec 1945 #6-18 (unnamed, mail train east of Pittsburgh) #79-11 (Golden Arrow, runs via Piqua) #13 (unnamed, but in passenger schedule) Feb 1948 #13 (unnamed, but in passenger schedule) #37-11, Iron City Express * (ran via Piqua) #6-18 (unnamed) ** April 1950 #12-18 (unnamed) ** #6-74, The Alleghany * #37-11, the Iron City Express * Dec 1950 #37-11, the Iron City Express, out of Pittsburgh at 9:45 am * #13 (unnamed) into Pittsburgh at 1:55 pm. This train often photographed, MoP baggages prominent. #6-74 Jan 1954 #6-74, the Alleghany out of Pittsburgh at 2 pm* Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone (8am to 8pm please) Fax same number Louisville, KY 40241-1625 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:27:22 EST Subject: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- who does it? In a message dated 1/21/2000 11:37:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: << Greetings to Rick and the Group, Its not a pipe dream. Look at National Geographic as an example. Their CD ROM set is all JPG image files of the magazine pages. You get the text and picures with color. No big deal. The Keystone's pages could be scanned and saved as JPG image files and a search program added to help find the article like NG has done. You wouldn't necessarily need a search program. Having the files named in some way that you could at least locate all of the files that went with a particular issue would be all that would really be nessary or some text indicating what files go with what issue/article. The second biggest problem and second most time consumming process would be the initial scanning. For future issues of the Keystone, it would be nice to them saved as PDF files. This way they would be more compact with better reproduced text. I'm not suggesting that they pages be scanned after production but saved to PDF during their creation like you can do in MS Word and MS Publisher and other page layout programs. Now the biggest problem and most time consumming process would be convincing the Society to either do it or allow for it to be done. Now there's the pipe dream! >> Drew, Bob, Bruce, and all: About reproducing earlier Keystones on CD -- this has all been discussed previously. It comes up every few months, takes up some bandwidth, and then disappears. My opinions aren't my own -- I'm passing along what was developed earlier. Please understand I'd love to be proved "wrong" on this one. I need a searchable index/copy of the Keystone about as bad as anyone, even though I've been a member long enough to have all but the very first issues. We can debate opinions until the end of the Internet. So the question boils down to, which one of you gentlemen is going to do a feasibility study and come back with a cost for a CD which may have 100-500 sales? My numbers are small here, but I'm guessing the market isn't much bigger than the membership of this list -- the rest of the Pennsy fans are challenged to turn on a PC, much less conduct a search on one. Please prove me "wrong" -- please! Meant in the most kindly of ways... Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 07:36:57 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR FP-7A #4359 nee 9859 OK, I give up! I know what DGLE stands for, as any self respecting SPF would, but what does LDGE and KCS Green stand for? I'm guessing that LDGE stands for Locomotive, Dark Green Enamel, but KCS has me baffled. The only thing that comes into my mind when I look at these letters is Kansas City Southern. I must be inhaling too many HO scale bituminous fumes lately! Larry TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Rick and all, > > Interesting question on just how many lives this cat had. > > Lets start with the FP-7 as the parallel is not a good one until after the > wreck... > > EMD FP-7A # 9859 delivered to PRR as a class EFP-15 builders #12437 in > July/August 1952. It was delivered in DGLE (AKA, LDGE & Brunswick Green as > well as KCS Green) with a single narrow stripe of PRR Buff (Dulux Gold). I t > was renumbered to pre-merger #4359. It was involved in an accident in > 1964/65 in a collision near Carnegie, PA resulting in a needed nose repair. > Thanks, Mr. Volkmer for filling in the gap! The nose repair requires the > grafting of a FT nose sacrificed from an ex-GN Y-1A (5011) by PRR to use as a > source of parts for other Y class locomotives on the roster. The unit > survives into Penn Central and is involved in another accident near Ft. > Wayne, IN and was scrapped in 1970. Unfortunately a relatively short life in > today's terms of engine life, just less that 20 years. > > This is a reference from Bert Pennypacker's CROSS CONTINENT ELECTRICS (NJ > International, Inc.) ... > > "The only serious accident ever to involve a Y 1 occurs in 1945 as No. 5011 > was hauling the westbound train 27, the Fast mail... 5011 suddenly derailed > (cause unknown) and rolled down the steep embankment, destroying the cab. > The rebuild took the form of a streamliner using a new FT diesel-nose ends > purchased from EMD. The locomotive was designated class Y1A." > > PRR purchases 8 units from the GN in August of 1956 at scrape prices and > sends all 8 units to Altoona for refitting. The only unit not to receive an > active PRR road number is 5011 the rest are reclassed FF-2 and receive > numbers 1 through 7 (inclusive). 5011 is used as "hanger queen" for parts > and gladly gives up her nose to FP-7 #4359 after the accident. > > So as you can see the sacrifice was a short fix as at least 19 FP-7's made it > beyond 1973 in Penn Central but these two jinxed locomotives days were > numbered. > > In a message RickTipton writes: > > << In a message dated 1/19/2000 2:48:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, > TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: > > << Dan and all, > > You are correct, 4359 was involve in an accident and had the nose replace > with a FT nose from one of the Y class electrics recycled from Great > Northern. This would make an interesting conversion from the ATLAS/CON COR > model. Now I am going to have to research the date of the accident to see > whether this will become my FP-7 I model. > > Greg Martin > >> > Hi Greg, > I forget at this point whether the EMD noses used on the GN electric were > new assemblies from EMD, or if they were off wrecks. If the latter, then the > nose on 4359 "led three lives." Silly question -- how long did 4359 survive? > > Rick Tipton > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:23:06 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- who does it? On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > We can debate opinions until the end of the Internet. So the question boils > down to, which one of you gentlemen is going to do a feasibility study and > come back with a cost for a CD which may have 100-500 sales? My numbers are Feasibility study = work Scanning Keystones in as images using a scanner is also work, but work which yields immediate results. Don't tell me about costs, tell me I can do work, and I and others who want it will do the work. You can get your labor free, which means there's only the cost of burning CDs, or having them mastered and pressed. I'd just as soon burn them. If you look for political answers there will always be some reason why the answer is no. My answer is to do it, and say "it's done, do you want it?" I let me boss play the politics game. Like I said, if I have something to scan I'd be doing it now. Sure, can't be distributed without permission, but I suspect getting approval with result in hand would be easier than getting it now. (just like it is at work, surprise surprise) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- who does it? Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:40:56 -0500 Always easier to get forgiveness than permission~ Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2000 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD -- who does it? >On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > >> We can debate opinions until the end of the Internet. So the question boils >> down to, which one of you gentlemen is going to do a feasibility study and >> come back with a cost for a CD which may have 100-500 sales? My numbers are > >Feasibility study = work > >Scanning Keystones in as images using a scanner is also work, but work >which yields immediate results. Don't tell me about costs, tell me I can >do work, and I and others who want it will do the work. You can get your >labor free, which means there's only the cost of burning CDs, or having >them mastered and pressed. I'd just as soon burn them. > >If you look for political answers there will always be some reason why the >answer is no. My answer is to do it, and say "it's done, do you want it?" >I let me boss play the politics game. > >Like I said, if I have something to scan I'd be doing it now. Sure, can't >be distributed without permission, but I suspect getting approval with >result in hand would be easier than getting it now. (just like it is at >work, surprise surprise) > >-D > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Trombone Man" Subject: [PRR] Copyright Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:56:51 -0500 It has been very interesting over the past few years as I read emails from several discussion groups and people eagerly copying things for others. We have a copyright law to protect those creative persons whom rely on the legal sale and distribution of their works, be it audio, video, print or electronic. If creative persons are not protected, what reason would they have to continue being creative? Why do all of the work we do and not be compensated? With today's technology, it is very easy to steal and that is what happens when someone violates the copyright law. Even in education, we are usually only permitted to copy exerpts for use. Please consider the creative person before you copy. Would you enjoy working and then not getting paid for your efforts? DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Copyright Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:11:12 -0500 I concur. My wife is a musician, so I certainly understand. I have found that asking permission very often brings a workable solution both parties can live with. Some want a little compensation or recognition - I give it to them. Other's just say "go ahead." But you're right, too many people ignore this. And it's often so easy to obtain. Thanks for pointing it out - it needed to be said (and probably repeated) on the list. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: Trombone Man To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Sunday, January 23, 2000 11:02 AM Subject: [PRR] Copyright > It has been very interesting over the past few years as I read emails >from several discussion groups and people eagerly copying things for others. >We have a copyright law to protect those creative persons whom rely on the >legal sale and distribution of their works, be it audio, video, print or >electronic. > If creative persons are not protected, what reason would they have to >continue being creative? Why do all of the work we do and not be >compensated? > With today's technology, it is very easy to steal and that is what >happens when someone violates the copyright law. Even in education, we are >usually only permitted to copy exerpts for use. > Please consider the creative person before you copy. Would you enjoy >working and then not getting paid for your efforts? > >DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:07:43 EST Subject: [PRR] NEW Highliner F-units Hey Yuze Gize, Let me readdress the original questions Stuart ask as I think I may have spread some miss information and I would like to correct it, and take credit for the errors before rumor become fact. Greg ================================================ Stu and my exchange with Stu's well thought out original questions..... ================================================ Examples would be: Do they offer both round and square windows for the rear door? Rear door, as tooled square window, option for a porthole is made of a stainless part. (sorry my mistake I should have read the old B-unit instructions, it was there) ================================================ Do they offer both square and round window corners on the side doors? Stu, what I think you may be referencing is the corners of the doors themselves. The windows in the side door always had a radii's in the corners, what was different was the door itself. The early doors had square corners (until Mar/50 per Ed Hawkins) and after that the doors became what I have always referred to as "airplane doors" with round corners. The Kit comes with square corners, but as I stated in my original post, "But some work will be required to create all the variations..." Yes, I was referring to the door frame. As to changing the door corners to the round variation, that's going to be tough. I am going to have to think about that one. I have an idea, but not sure how well it would work. Again, I erred but without an instruction sheet it was easy to do, "simply reverse the door insert, dummy," ( so says my friend Paul) 3^) so I was reminded it is an east flip flop ... so yes both style doors. ============================================================ Do they offer anyway to do the lip around the windshields that was done on some units? Yes, This change came in late 1949 and the lip will be attached to the window glass, per Paul. So, he will have two different windshield inserts? Yes, two window inserts. And the glass test run is Monday the 24th. ============================================================= Do the offer MU access doors for the nose next to the upper headlight? Unfortunately, no. This is always a bugger isn't it! I just went through it with my PA/B set. I will share a painless way to do this without scribing a scratch in the nose in the PA/B article. I am looking forward to your ideas and techniques on the MU door. As Mark Kerlick shared with us the decal is on solution I have another. ================================================ Like I have said I am no expert on the F-unit subject, but I started in-depth research on them about 8 months ago. I started by digging out my old Mainline Modelers (Jan/Feb 1982 & March 1982) from the very early 80's, an "absolute must have" for the avid F Unit guy and still available as back issues. Then recently I purchased the new Jeff Wilson/Kalmbach Publishing book, F UNITS The Diesel that Did It, this is a must have book. I had an opportunity to attend Ed Hawkins F Unit Seminar at the Sunshine Meet In Naperville this past fall. So my skills are good and getting better and I want to do a spread sheet on my favorite roads F Units as many of the production date/phase changes are arbitrary. I like the idea of a spread sheet on F-unit details. I should do the same. ================================================ Again, Jim Six and I have both talked about these new F Units and they both have their strong points and I wish not to play up their shortcomings. We have finally been handed beautiful F Units and it started last spring. My engine facilities will harbor both, so I am stepping to the plate... I will also have both IM and HL units. The main reason is due to the fact that the HL model lends itself better to doing certain roads later F-units. I am referring to the CRR units. Take a look at some of those units from the late 60's and 70's sometime. There was almost nothing left as-built. Louvers were swapped around. Even portholes were swapped around. I am hoping that the HL model makes doing these modifications easier. Stuart Thayer and Greg Martin F-unit exchange Guess you might say Two HORN BLAST from us! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 12:11:56 -0500 From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Copyright Trombone Man wrote: > Please consider the creative person before you copy. Would you enjoy > working and then not getting paid for your efforts? That's assuming money is the number one reason why I'd be in it, and in that case I'd be lower than dirt. I have no respect for people who's motivation is money. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, Railway Exposition Company, Latonia, Kentucky ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:29:50 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a fuel tanks On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > Do I assume corretcly that the tapered projection at one end of the engine > under the car body and over the lead truck is the oil fuel tank for the > boiler? When the P-5s were equipped with steam boilers, one tank was used for fuel, the other for water. On the boxcabs, the boiler end was the "front" and the filler for right tank was labeled "Fuel Oil" and the left tank "water". Of course, on most units after the late 30's these boilers were removed and the filler hatches plated over. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Tip on Upson board Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:11:34 -0600 Hi, all, For you modelers out there, I had a recent interesting experience tracking down Upson board to use as roadbed. Here in the Chicago area, the lumber yards very rarely stock it. However, I got a tip that Upson board is often used for advertising display backing and other such uses associated with commercial advertising/artists. Just before I actually began calling the big commercial artist supply houses downtown I found a sheet of Upson at a lumberyard. My point - if you want to try Upson board but are having a hard time locating it, try large artist supply stores. George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:10:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser M-1a On 1/22/00 12:56:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com (doug.kisala) writes: "A logical progression, kitwise, would be to start with the A5s, move on to the H9s (or, perhaps an L1s or K4s) and then build the M1a." Doug - I wish I had known this! I started with the M-1a kit - had to basically build it twice before it ran and looked the way I wanted (and the incorrect firebox doesn't really bother me too much - especially when it is pulling a 20-car train up a 2 1/2% grade - it is "close enough" in my book, considering the alternative which is no M1). I recently built the K-4 and it practically "fell together" - suppose this shows how modelling skills can develop over a couple years of practice. BTW - IMHO the Bowser-supplied DC-71 CAN be made to operate smoothly with some care and patience! Mike Hagan Andover MA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:27:22 -0500 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: [PRR] OHIO CENTRAL TO MOVE COAL FROM NEW BUCKINGHAM COAL MINE Is this OC line the former Panhandle line?? OHIO CENTRAL TO MOVE COAL FROM NEW BUCKINGHAM COAL MINE: NS and Ohio Central Railroad team up Providing a huge economic boost for the area, a new $25 million Buckingham Coal mine scheduled to open this summer in Gloucester, Ohio, is receiving assistance from NS. Buckingham Coal's first customer, American Electric Power, is located in Conesville, Ohio, served by the Ohio Central Railroad. Buckingham Coal's mine is located on NS. This presented two challenges: the track connecting the two railroads has long been out of service, and the distance between the mine and power plant was too short for two railroads to economically participate in a joint move. Consequently, Buckingham Coal was planning to truck the coal a distance of about 75 miles. Instead, Ohio Central, with NS support, secured financial assistance from the Ohio Rail Development Corporation to reopen the dormant line. NS is finalizing an agreement to grant Ohio Central trackage rights over 20 miles of NS track so that Ohio Central can provide direct, one-carrier, truck-competitive, rail service between the mine and the power plant. "From Norfolk Southern's perspective, trucking the coal would have been bad for the environment," said Steve Eisenach, director Strategic Planning. "Equally important, these types of new business opportunities embody the spirit of the 1998 Railroad Industry Agreement between the Class I railroads and the short line industry. Our deal with Ohio Central strengthens the rail industry, keeps heavy trucks off the roads, and ultimately, saves electric customers money. Everybody wins." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] OHIO CENTRAL TO MOVE COAL FROM NEW BUCKINGHAM COAL MINE From: Fred G Rea Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:33:52 EST I had a post on PRR-Talk re this a while back. It is really the old Zanesville branch most of the way. More specifically: >From Glouster to New Lexington they will use the NS-NYC-T&OC line that runs from Columbus S.E. to Athens and Charleston W Va. >From New Lexington they will use the Ohio Southern (a part of OC) line to Zanesville. This line has not been used for many years and includes a tunnel and a high bridge. It is part of the old Zanesville Branch of the Pan Handle. >From Zanesville to Trinway they will use the OC line that used to be a NS-W&LE line. >From Trinway to Conesville they can use either the OC-W&LE line or the parallel OC line that was the original Pan Handle main to Conesville. This will require considerable upgrading of the track and ROW, particularly the New Lexington-Zanesville line. I keep hearing several rumors here in Columbus. First, that NS also wants to use this route to get traffic from Charleston W Va to Pittsburgh with out having to through Columbus. Also that the OC continues to carry NS traffic from Columbus to Mingo (NS trains with OC crews) and that oft repeated rumor that NS wants to buy out OC. This is a huge victory for rail vs trucks in S.E. Ohio. There may be life in the old PRR-Pan Handle yet. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 01:33:12 EST Subject: [PRR] YIKES DGLE was PRR FP-7A #4359 nee 9859 Larry and all, You got it! DGLE is Dark Green Locomotive Enamel as referenced on most PRR Paint and Lettering Diagrams. LDGE is again Locomotive Dark Green Enamel and is made reference to on some PRR paint and Lettering diagrams and perhaps more importantly also used in the text of the notes from Pullman Standards Painting and Lettering Diagrams on Pullman owned cars of the 40's paint this color. It cross references the Glidden Paint's Brunswick Green as the "same as PRR's LDGE" which makes the case or the proper use of Brunswick Green in exchange for DGLE. Some might disagree. Pullman also makes reference to a color called Kanas City Southern Green #70-34 as so dark it appears black, but in research DGLE was darker... So for all these years perhaps the Brunswick greens we have been using were too green... Larry Reynolds writes: << OK, I give up! I know what DGLE stands for, as any self respecting SPF would, but what does LDGE and KCS Green stand for? I'm guessing that LDGE stands for Locomotive, Dark Green Enamel, but KCS has me baffled. The only thing that comes into my mind when I look at these letters is Kansas City Southern. I must be inhaling too many HO scale bituminous fumes lately! Larry >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Trombone Man" Subject: [PRR] RE: Copyright Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:19:34 -0500 Good Morning to all of you: I would first like to say that my brief commentary on copyright infringement was not directed towards any one individual. I do not comment on individuals in a public forum. My purpose was to make all of us think before we copy. Seeing the several responses, I hopefully have made my point. DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:27:43 EST Subject: [PRR] 3 Panhandle Bridges In a message dated 1/14/2000 9:22:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, GPandelios@aol.com writes: << Folks, Does anyone have the dimensions of the PRR Ohio River bridge at Weirton, WV? Any drawings or on-line photos would be appreciated. Thanks, George >> George, Please keep me in the loop and I will do likewise. The Panhandle Bridge (Weirton WV - Steubenville OH) is cited as the base design for the original (1868, modified 1870, opened 1872) Newport & Cincinnati Bridge, carrying its L&N predecessor into PRR's downtown Cincinnati terminal. I'm working on an article about the N&C Bridge, and I've already seen materials that compare dimensions of the two, showing how the design was lengthened to cross the (bigger) Ohio River at Cincinnati. Turns out, of the 3 early (pre-1873) rail spans over the Ohio (Steubenville, Cincinnati, Louisville), the Pennsy's western predecessors/leassors had a finger in design and financing of all three, although the Louisville bridge was designed and built for the "Louisville Bridge Company" by L&N's civil engineer, Albert Fink. Of these three, the Cincinnati Bridge ended up in L&N hands (and became "the L&N Bridge" to generations of railroaders and fans). The other two were eventually wholly owned by the PCC&StL (PRR Lines Southwest). I believe all three bridges were substantially rebuilt between 1890 and 1918; in the case of the N&C, traffic levels had exploded and required replacement in only 20 years. Redesign by the Corps of Engineers of the canal/locks around the Falls of the Ohio precipitated replacement of the Louisville Bridge with a very heavy double track bridge (and replacement of a swing bridge with a vertical lift) in 1917; we're not sure when the second track was removed from this bridge, but its single track remaining is used daily by short line Louisville & Indianapolis to switch its trackage on the Kentucky side of the Ohio River. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 08:03:12 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Copyright > From: "Trombone Man" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > Subject: [PRR] RE: Copyright > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:19:34 -0500 > Good Morning to all of you: > I would first like to say that my brief commentary on copyright > infringement was not directed towards any one individual. I do not comment > on individuals in a public forum. My purpose was to make all of us think > before we copy. Seeing the several responses, I hopefully have made my > point. > > DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor Your statement on Copyright was correct. Most of us don't think about that when we reproduce something. As an editor of a newsletter, I get permissions for reprints and that would include something posted here that I might wish to use. I will almost always grant reprint permission when asked provided credit is given. But I expect you to ask. :-) (There are a few exceptions.) Roger Roger Hensley 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://cid.railfan.net ====================================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:03:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Engine #4257 Can anybody tell me what engine types had this number on the PRR. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Engine #4257 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:45:54 -0600 It was an I1s. It was built by Baldwin in 7/23, converted to I1sa in 11/43, and dropped from the roster in 10/55. The construction number was 56655. I could not find any others using #4257. Andy -----Original Message----- Can anybody tell me what engine types had this number on the PRR. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:19:15 -0500 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: [PRR] More Copyright Fun Patrick James Rieger wrote: > That's assuming money is the number one reason why I'd be in it, and in > that case I'd be lower than dirt. I have no respect for people who's > motivation is money. Patrick and the List- Anything that I create which is RR related comes from the heart and not from the pocketbook. I have thousands of hours wrapped up in maps and reports and whatnot, and will share it freely with whoever can use it as long as they aren't making $$ of it. If they are out to make a profit, then I want a cut of the action. Period. I don't go out on a project looking for $$ because $$ isn't the reason for doing it. I'm doing it because I want to learn about something, and it may take years to get it done. As soon as profit motive is entered into the scene, I seem to find a harder time summing up the enthusiasm to get the project finished. That's why I don't write or take photographs for a living. I *hated* my chosen craft, photography, when I did it for a living. But that's only me. I can't project my own prejudices about art on the next guy who wants to make a living from *his* craft. Now then, there are some "information whores" out there who talk the long talk about the books or articles they are writing and are mum on coughing up real answers to honest questions. But there are also some real gentlemen out there who will share what they know with me, even though they are in the business of writing about railroads and are successful at doing so. It's only fair that we cut them some slack when it comes to asking them to share proprietary information. Hey, next year it won't matter because the article will be out and paid for. I am rarely in that much of a hurry. We'd miss some very fine books if it were not for the profit motive. Al Stauffer's body of work comes to mind. At least two PRR List members are published authors of some merit. So I have to wonder that if monetary compensation wasn't going to be forthcoming for the author, if we'd even have wonderful books like _Crossroads of Commerce_ at all. If somebody waves money in my face wanting to use something I have created, then yes, I will at least give it some consideration. So I slap a copyright on every image that I create and every report that I write. Patrick, I understand your frustration with people who are out there to to make money at this hobby, above all else (video guys who "have to do this because we're making money" seem to be the worst when it comes to setting up their gear in your field of view long after you've been waiting trackside for a particular photograph). But don't let it cloud your ability to understand why some folks desire copyright protection. Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:45:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine #4257 In a message dated 01/24/2000 3:13:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << Can anybody tell me what engine types had this number on the PRR. Thanks. >> Steam I1sa Diesel E8A when renumbered Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:19:18 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine #4257 Hello list, I'll leave the diesels to others, but the only PRR steamer to carry number 4257 was an I1s, built by Baldwin in July 1923. She was converted to I1sa November 1943, and was dropped from the roster in October 1955. Doug NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > Can anybody tell me what engine types had this number on the PRR. Thanks. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] B-6sb Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:15:00 -0800 I just bought a B-6sb in O scale and it is detailed and lettered for engine # 5347. I found a shot of it in Chicago during the late 1940's. Did this engine stay in this area or migrate to another region or facility? I model the eastern portion of the Pennsy and can't find too many of the late B-6sb out there. There were a group of B-6sb built with outwardly sloping cylinders and a single cab window. Gene Deimling PRRH&TS #6418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:24:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Engine #4257 Well it looks like I will have to renumber my I-1 to my PRRT&HS #. Thanks to all who responded. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:58:11 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] prr documents Hello All... A while back someone on the list made a post asking members of the list to submit what PRR or PRR related documents they had so that a list of them could be made so others might look them up and perhaps exchange infomation from them. Recently i have come into some (PRR documents) and would like to get in touch so i can add them to that list.(I did'nt save the e-mail..dang it) Please e-mail me off list... til later H. Mummert Jr. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Trombone Man" Subject: Re: [PRR] More Copyright Fun Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:11:52 -0500 Patrick James Rieger wrote: > That's assuming money is the number one reason >why I'd be in it, and in that case I'd be lower than dirt. I >have no respect for people who's motivation is >money. Copyright is there to protect the creative process. Some people look at things as a hobby and say money is not important while others rely on the creative process to make a living. Several examples come to mind: A person spending two years of research and planning for a book that he will receive no monetary remuneration. It is a project for a museum to use as a dissemination of information and to raise funds for said museum. A publishing company (any medium) is in the business of making a profit. Who is going to publish when there is no profit? Quite a few years ago, the IRS changed the status of printed material in stock. It was deemed that the material already printed was to be taxed as potential income before it was sold. Many wonderful items were dumped and now we search the out of print market for them. Unfortunately we seem to think that we have created all of these wonderful copying tools: scanners, cassette recorders, DAT recorders, video recorders, photocopy machines, et cetera that we can copy and redistribute willy nilly. Go ahead if you want, but do not get caught. The fine is very large and you may serve some jail time. As a musician, I am faced with copyright law and the violations of such everyday. Let us preserve and protect those creative minds that make our everyday life a little better. DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Trombone Man" Subject: Re: [PRR] More Copyright Fun Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:20:59 -0500 I apologize to Patrick James Rieger for including his quote in my previous post. It was inadvertently pasted into my message. My comments about copyright are meant to be general in nature. I spent time with every class that I teach covering copyright infringement. We must protect those whom give us their creative gifts. DFCramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor dfc1@alltel.net www.geocities.com/armconband ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] B-6sb Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 05:59:06 -0700 Hi Gene and all... I am not suprised you can't find too many of the late B6sb's...only the last 5 were built with the outwardly sloping cylinders. Maybe we need a good reference book on Pennsylvania Railroad Steam Switchers of the Atlantic Lines. :-) (think Bob would publish it?) Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: endeimling@mindspring.com To: PRR Talk Date: Monday, January 24, 2000 9:25 PM Subject: [PRR] B-6sb >I just bought a B-6sb in O scale and it is detailed and lettered for engine ># 5347. I found a shot of it in Chicago during the late 1940's. Did this >engine stay in this area or migrate to another region or facility? >I model the eastern portion of the Pennsy and can't find too many of the >late B-6sb out there. There were a group of B-6sb built with outwardly >sloping cylinders and a single cab window. > >Gene Deimling >PRRH&TS #6418 > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Netzlof" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:09:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Sheffield Farms locations, 1923, 1945 Sheffield Farms Company, Inc. Roaring Branch, PA 1923 Elmira 8228 Grover, PA 1923 Elmira 8234 Canton, PA 1923 1945 Elmira* 8239 Alba, PA 1923 Elmira 8243 Cowley, PA 1923 1945 Elmira* 8246 West End, NJ 1923** 1945 NY&LB 1225 Avon-by-the-Sea 1923** 1945 NY&LB 1231 Rising Springs, PA 1945 Williamsport 7343 Nunda, NY (1) 1945 Buffalo W402 Bellefonte, PA (2) 1945 Middle BF Howard, PA 1945 Middle 4360 Mill Hall, PA (3) 1945 Middle 4372 * Elmira Branch of the Williamsport Division in 1945 ** These were named "Shefield Farms - Slawson-Decker Co." (1) In 1923: "Park and Pratt Condensed Milk Co." on Tyrone Divison (2) In 1923: "Western Marland Dairy" on Tyrone Divison (3) In 1923: "Continental Condensed Milk Co." on Tyrone Division Data sources: List of Sations and Sidings CT1000 Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Philadelphia, PA Editions of 1923 and 1945 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Netzlof" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:12:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Abbott's Dairy locations, 1923, 1945 Abbott's Alderney Dairies Co. Curry, PA 1923 1945 Middle 5124 Salem, NJ 1923 (1) Atlantic SE Daretown, NJ 1923 (1) Atlantic 2175 Atlantic City, NJ 1923 (1) Atlantic AY Kelton, PS 1923 Maryland 9043 Oxford, PA 1923 1945 Maryland 9049 Youngsville, PA 1923 Renovo 868 Spring Creek, PA 1923 1945 Renovo 881 Portville, NY (2) (3) Buffalo 6545 (1) These locations do not appear in the 1945 CT1000, due to the formation of Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines (2) In 1923: "Portville Dairy Products Co." (3) In 1945: "Abbott Dairies, Inc." I'm assuming this is the same company. The CT1000's are somewhat inconsistent in recording company names, especially when comparing one division to another. Since Abbott's had a presence in the area, I made the assumption. Caveat lector. Data sources: List of Stations and Sidings CT1000 Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Philadelphia, PA Editions af 1923 and 1945 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Netzlof" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:10:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Supplee locations, 1923, 1945 Supplee-Wills-Jones Milk Co. West Philadelphia, PA 1945 Phila Term. O82 Mt. Pleasant, DE 1923* 1945 Maryland 9320 Princess Anne, MD 1945 Delmarva N13 Ronk, PA 1923 1945 Philadelphia 145 Chambersburg, PA 1923** 1945 Philadelphia G52 Mercersburg, PA 1923** 1945 Phliadelphia GM72 Lewistown, PA 1945 Middle LN Bedford, PA 1923 1945 Middle 4152 Beaver Springs, PA 1923 (1) Sunbury 4023 Middleburg, PA 1923 (1) Sunbury 4033 Clifford, PA 1923 Sunbury 4041 Centerville, PA 1923 1945+ Allegheny W528 Kennedyville, MD 1923 Delaware 9930 Waynesburg, PA 1923 Cumb. Valley GA68 Duncannon, PA 1923 Middle 208 Woodstown, NJ 1923 Atlantic 2118 Kennett Square, PA 1923 Maryland 9033 Light Street, PA 1923 (1) Williamsport 7254 * In 1923, this was the Delaware Division ** In 1923, this was the Cumberland Valley Division + In 1945, this was the Buffalo Division (1) In 1945, these were Dairymen's League facilities. Data sources: List of Stations and Sidings CT1000 Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Philadelphia, PA Editions of 1923 and 1945 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Netzlof" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:14:14 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Mohawk locations, 1923, 1945 Mohawk Condensed Milk Co. Corry, PA 1923 (1) Allegheny* COR Clymer, NY 1923 (2) Allegheny* W551 Sherman, NY 1923 Allegheny* W561 Summerdale, NY 1923 Allegheny* W566 Mayville, NY 1923 1945 Allegheny* W572 * In 1945, this was the Buffalo Division (1) In 1945: "Carnation Co." (2) In 1945: "Dairymens League Cooperative Assoc., Inc." Data sources: List of Stations and Sidings CT1000 Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Philadelphia, PA Editions of 1923 and 1945 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Netzlof" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:13:04 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Dairymens League locations, 1923, 1945 Dairymen's League Cooperative Association, Inc. West Newark, NJ (1) 1945 New York 1031 Milton, PA 1923 1945 Williamsport ML Rising Springs, PA 1945 Williamsport 7345 Light Street, PA (2) 1945 Williamsport 7254 Cedar Ledge, PA 1945 Williamsport 8238 Middleburg, PA (2) 1945 Wilkes-Barre 4033 Beaver Springs, PA (2) 1945 Wilkes-Barre 4023 Clymer, NY (3) 1945 Buffalo W551 (1) In 1923: "Interstate Milk and Cream Co." (2) In 1923, these were Supplee-Wills-Jones facilities. (3) In 1923: "Mohawk Condensed Milk Co." Data sources: List of Stations and Sidings CT1000 Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Philadelphia, PA Editions of 1923 and 1945 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Netzlof" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:15:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Rieke-McJunkin locations, 1923, 1945 Rieke-McJunkin Dairy Co. Rome, OH 1923 (1) E&A 77L Rock Creek, OH 1923 E&A 81L Austinburg, OH 1923 E&A 89L Linesville, PA 1923 1945 E&A 54K Westford, PA 1945 E&A 47K Lockwood, OH 1923 1945 E&A 67L Charleroi, PA * 1923 1945 Monongahela 6761 East Liberty, PA 1923 Pittsburgh EL * This is listed as "Charleroi Plant" (1) In 1945: "Telling-Belle Vernon Dairy Co." Interestingly, Belle Vernon, PA is a few miles from Charleroi, but across the river and not on a PRR line. Data sources: List of Stations and Sidings CT1000 Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Philadelphia, PA Editions of 1923 and 1945 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:04:33 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Dairy locations errata I see my proofreading is up to it's usual low standard. In the Sheffield Farms post: "Western Maryland Dairy" not "Western Marland..." Avon-by-the-Sea is in New Jersey Two f's in Sheffield, even when it's Sheffield Farms - Slawson-Decker. Lest someone ask, the numbers/letters in the rightmost column are the location ID's given in the CT1000. Yes, they are the same in 1923 as in 1945. (That's not always true, but was in every case here.) I compiled these lists by eyeballing the lists in the CT1000's. Maybe I missed some. Beware. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:17:37 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] New, improved Geographic Name Information Server At various times, folks have posted info about: Terraserver satellite photos of the earth GNIS give it a name, it shows you a map. USGS Topographic maps from various sources I just visted the GNIS system, looking for a place name and found that they've enhanced their service. Formerly, once you had entered a place name you could view a map generated by the Tiger map server at the Census Bureau. Now, you can do that, or view a satellite photo or view a snippet of the topographic map or view an EPA map showing what watershed the place is in. That is, they've tied into Terraserver, and Terraserver has added topographic maps. The url is www-nmd.usgs.gov/www/gnis/gnisform.html That gets you a search form wherein to enter the place name. From there on it's pretty much self explanatory. Enjoy ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:46:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] More Copyright Fun In a message dated 1/25/00 6:22:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, trombone@alltel.net writes: << As a musician, I am faced with copyright law and the violations of such everyday. >> I hear ya. I copyright everything I write and record before anyone hears it. Why anyone would want to steal one of my songs is beyond me, but I do it just in case. Sean McDonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:11:05 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] B-6sb Hello All... This is what i sent to Gene.... Hello... Ok i don't know if it will help...,But Carlton's Pennsy A to T shows B-6sb no. 5345 in Chicago (no date given but probably post war), and No. 6391 at Camdem,N.J. in 1956. Stauffer's Pennsy Power I shows what appears to be either 1479 or 1679 (i can only see the last two numbers good in the picture,but my bet is for 1679).at Camdem,N.J. in a Phillip Hastings photo taken in the 1950's. All of these B-6sb are the later ones with the revised cylinder slant. (top valves outward). Hope this helps Til Later H. Mummert Jr. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:03:01 -0500 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] CT4001 Can anyone tell me what a CT4001 is? Is it similar to CT1000? There's one for sale on E-Bay. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] L1s Tenders Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:17:48 -0800 There may be hope for someone trying to accurately reproduce an L1 using a Bowser kit. There probably was an L1 equipped with a 130P75 tender, at least for awhile. The February 2000 RMC has an ad for Crown Custom Products on p. 101 listing a Railworks "L1s 2-8-2 #1614 w/130P75, mod front, bar pilot". Railworks, of course, is outrageously expensive, but they do have a reputation for accuracy. This surely was a unique engine on the Standard Railroad of the World, but is probably accurate. Anyone got a photo of 1614? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:34:46 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] CT4001 I suppose in some sense it is similar. But, where the CT1000 purported to show every station, siding, or other place where a crew might need to leave/pick up a car and report the fact, the ct4001 chops the railroad into segments of 5 miles or so, and gives a name to each segment. As I recall, location "Trobe" is bounded by mileposts two or three miles east and west of Latrobe, PA. That's all it says: "Trobe M.P. 302 to M.P. 307" (I'm making up the numbers). Not at all the level of detail one finds in the CT1000's. The CT4001 gives no clue that there is a station at Latrobe, doesn't mention the Steel Works Spur, nor the tag end of the Unity Branch, etc., etc. --- Mike Morrow wrote: > Can anyone tell me what a CT4001 is? Is it similar > to CT1000? There's > one for sale on E-Bay. > Mike > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:08:30 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] More Copyright Hi, I am getting off the Copyright List for a while but before I go I am offering a totally complete listing of all preserved PRR cabin cars on the listing. An e-mail to me gets the PRR Captive Caboose List to you! Cheers, Roger, Copyright © 2000 -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 113 West 17th Street, Leadville, CO 80461 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:17:14 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Sheffield Farms Mill Hall Location was Re: [PRR] Sheffield Farms Bob and the group, Bob, again thanks for your effort on listing the dairies. As for the Mill Hall location, Continental Condensed Milk Co. was located between the NYC and PRR tracks on the east side of Pennsylvania Ave in Mill Hall. The plant is gone. It was torn down sometime after Hurricane Agness (1972 Flood). There's still a fence around the perimeter of where the plant used to sit though. I'm not sure when the milk operations closed but Sylvania was operating in the building during and after the war years. My mother and grandmother both worked there. During the war years Sylvania at Mill Hall made artilliary proximity fuses. After the war they made vacume tubes. Off of the top of my head, I don't know when Sylvania ceased operations at Mill Hall. I have a picture post card of Continental Condensed Milk Co. and a Sanborn map of the plant when it was still in the milk business. There was a Daireymens League location in Mill Hall too. It was located on the north side of the PRR tracks just west of the Water Street grade crossing according to the Sanborn Maps. I had thought the the 1923 CT 1000 had it listed. From what I can tell, the building is still standing. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 08:09 AM 01/25/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Sheffield Farms Company, Inc. >Mill Hall, PA (3) 1945 Middle 4372 > >(3) In 1923: "Continental Condensed Milk Co." on Tyrone Division > >Data sources: List of Sations and Sidings CT1000 > Pennsylvania Railroad Co. > Philadelphia, PA > Editions of 1923 and 1945 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1s Tenders Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:29:15 -0800 Bruce--Sorry, guess I wasn't clear. I was only referencing Railworks because they usually get it right. The tender to use would be Bowser's "almost" 130P75 to model 1614 with a Bowser L1. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:46:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Reading Material Hi Guys, A couple of weeks ago, I was down in Wilmington, DE and stopped by Mitchell's Shop. I picked up a couple of books that I thought were worth mentioning. Others on the list may be familiar with them, but they were new to me. They are: "The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle" (Main Line Panorama in the Pittsburgh Area), by Ken Kobus and Jack Consoli. and "The Pennsy In The Steel City" (150 Years of the Pennsylvania Railroad in Pittsburgh), by the same authors. These are both publications of the PRRT&HS, and are filled with loads of excellent photographs and historical data. Also included are some separate detailed maps of the Pittsburgh district, taken from the Office of Chief Engineer M. of W., dated Aug. 1924. There had been some "Talk" recently of the "Panhandle". "The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle" devotes pages 27-42, to this subject. So, this is just a 'FYI' for those who haven't seen these publications, and to get the subject matter back on the PRR or at least, back on railroading. I too was becoming a little bored with the new "Copyright/Music-Talk", off-topic syndrome. Sorry guys, I just had to say it! ;-) Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Preserved PRR Cabin List Was [PRR] More Copyright Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:01:17 -0500 Roger is easily THE authority on preserved cabooses--well, that's what non-Pennsy people tend to call them. Anyone interested in PRR cabins is well-advised to take him up on this offer. -----Original Message----- From: Roger Kirkpatrick To: PRR Talk Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: [PRR] More Copyright >Hi, > >I am getting off the Copyright List for a while but before I go I am >offering a totally complete listing of all preserved PRR cabin cars on >the listing. > >An e-mail to me gets the PRR Captive Caboose List to you! > >Cheers, Roger, Copyright © 2000 >-- >S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 113 West 17th Street, Leadville, CO 80461 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:13:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1s Tenders Steven, Your statement that Railworks usually gets things right might not be all it is cracked up to be. I myself don't own any of their locos due to the fact I already have most the locos represented by other manufacturers. Their prices are another small reason too. The Railwork Locos are of high quality and use the latest in technology but the following is what I heard. The long awaited release of their I1sa's were a gigantic disapointment for many scale modelers. I have yet to inspect one closely but I believe they modeled the PRR Boiler on this one badly. Wrong shape is I believe the biggest complaint. The Fattness maybe there but that is about it. I have heard this from several dealers so take that for what its worth. I did see the L1's but didn't study them too closely. Never seen a K4 yet either. I did notice the owner of Railworks likes to have his locos painted on the greenish shade of DGLE. A little too green for my taste, but each his own, I have no problem with that. Now the eagerly awaited Rail Classic Locos are next to be put under the microscope, both their E-6's and K4s's. I could use both. I have no E-6's and plenty of old reliable PFM K4-s backed up by Key and Alco Streamlined K's. It would be nice to update them someday with replacements. So, hopefully with all the research and photos available to these new companies, ie: Rail Classics, the finished product will be the most acurate to date. Possibly beating out the Precission Scale K4. Sorry to get way off your original thread Steve. I looked in my photos and couldn't find an L1 with the P130 tender.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:30:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR Brass Locos PRR Modelers, I have a few moents to kill before starting another paint job so I figured I would fiddle with something here. Below is a list, (My Opinion Only) on the best of each class PRR Steam Loco released in Brass in HO Scale. May not be a complete list but from what I have encountered and learned over the years it is worth a look. I am not sure how viewable this list will be when transmitted through email but here goes. A5s......No Contest...Key Imports,.....$450.00+or- B6sb....Excellent......Key Imports......$450.00+or- B8a......Nice.............Key Imports,....$450.00+or- C1........Excellent......Key Imports,....$475.00+or- D16sd..Nice..............Railworks,.......$475.00+or- E3sd....Excellent.......Key Imports,....$525.00+or- E5s......No Contest....Key Imports,....$500.00+or- E6s......Nice ..............Key Imports,...$525.00+or- F3........Only Choice.. Gem, .............$225.00+or- G5.......??? Never seen or worked on an Alco Models. Westside Models is Fairly Nice, $300.00+or-, H1 and H3........Only Choice...Empire Models, $300.00+or-, H6sb.....Nice.............Railworks,....$525.00+or- H8's......I like Sunset (Samhongsa)....$425.00+or- H9's......I like Sunset (Samhongsa)....$425.00+or- H10......I like Sunset (Samhongsa).....$425.00+or- The H8, 9 and 10 Locos from Key Imports are said to be nice. I have never seen any. I1,I1sa..Nice..............Key Imports (1988 runs)..$800.00+or- J1,J1a...No Contest...Key Imports,..$1300.00+++ (Good Luck trying to find one) K2-K3....Only Choice..Westside Models, $300.00+or- K4s.......Toss up. Both Precision Scale and Railworks compare favorably. Both have minor + and - 's in details., $525.00 to $750.00+or- K4 (1936 Streamlined)..Excellent...Key Imports, $800.00++ K4 (1940 Streamlined)..Only Choice...Alco Models. Rail Classic's release may beat this by a few hundred miles.,...$425.00+or- L1s.......Probably Railworks. However don't count out the good old reliable PFM on this one. $750.00+or-, PFM--$400.00+or- M1,M1a,b's....Never seen one but I assume the new Challenger model has every importer beat on this one. Yes very expennsive though....,$1500.00+or- N1....Excellent........Challenger Imports, $1000.00+or- Q1-2.....Most likely Key Imports. They do good work on Big Steam., $1500.00+ S1....Hmmmm. I assume Challenger Imports but have heard complaints on the models dimensions....$1800.00+ S2.....Gotta be Key Imports. Very Nice!, $1200.00+or- T1.....Again, probably no contest. Key Imports. I believe due to be rereleased again. $1100.00+ Again, those choices are my opinion only. Some I have, Most I don't. Many I wish I did. Some of those choices may and probably do have "mistakes" I am unaware of. Prices could vary somewhat from those posted. Should any on the list be replaced with another choice? Any comments? Now back to painting....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] L1 / 130P75 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:33:45 -0500 Hello Steve and Bruce; Just to clarify, when I was connected with Railworks we did import a L-1 version with a 130P75 tender. The engine was #1614 with a modified front end, bar pilot and passenger air lines. The tender was a 130P75 without doghouse and passenger rear steps on the tender. The photo was dated 1948 for what it's worth. Sometimes you will see the same engine photo from different sources with different dates on the rear of the photos. Also, #1662 and #3483 had 130P75 tanks on them at one time. They had small doghouses, freight type rear tender steps and rear footboards. BTW, both these L-1's had footboards not bar pilots in the photos. I must stress "in these photos", because one will find photos taken at another time with a completely different engine and tender configuration. When we did the research for the I-1 project, we found photos of a given engine number with different engine appliances and tender combinations within a few years span. I hope this information helps you on the issue. EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:15:59 -0500 From: "David \\"Fresh\\" Freshwater" Subject: [PRR] Re: 3 Panhandle Bridges A subject near and dear to my heart. I grew up about 8 miles south of the bridge between Weirton and Steubenville. According to the Panhandle Division article in the Winter 1990 Keystone, the original bridge between Weirton and Steubenville as built in 1865 and substantially modified and augmented in 1888-89. In 1909, the structure underwent a major rebuild. In 1926, the bridge was replaced to add the second track. The bridge is slightly under 2000 feet between back walls on both sides and consists of 6 truss spans (three through and three deck trusses.) Picture of the bridge on page 22 of that issue. The bridge is also pictured in Grif Teller's "Crossroads of Commerce" painting. A series of articles on "American Railroad Bridges," by William D. Middleton in Rail Model Craftsman (starts in Dec. 1999 issue) mentions the original bridge on page 105-6 of the Dec. 1999 issue. It states that the bridge was a 1,900 foot long structure made up of eight Whipple truss spans of cast and wrought iron. There were seven deck truss spans of 205 or 231 feet, while the main channel was spanned with a through truss 27 feet deep and 317 feet long. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture right now. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD -----------------Reply Separator------------------------- > Subject: 3 Panhandle Bridges > From: > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 07:27:43 EST > > In a message dated 1/14/2000 9:22:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, > GPandelios@aol.com writes: > > << Folks, > > Does anyone have the dimensions of the PRR Ohio River bridge at Weirton, WV? > Any drawings or on-line photos would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > George > >> > George, > Please keep me in the loop and I will do likewise. The Panhandle Bridge > (Weirton WV - Steubenville OH) is cited as the base design for the original > (1868, modified 1870, opened 1872) Newport & Cincinnati Bridge, carrying its > L&N predecessor into PRR's downtown Cincinnati terminal. I'm working on an > article about the N&C Bridge, and I've already seen materials that compare > dimensions of the two, showing how the design was lengthened to cross the > (bigger) Ohio River at Cincinnati. > > Turns out, of the 3 early (pre-1873) rail spans over the Ohio (Steubenville, > Cincinnati, Louisville), the Pennsy's western predecessors/leassors had a > finger in design and financing of all three, although the Louisville bridge > was designed and built for the "Louisville Bridge Company" by L&N's civil > engineer, Albert Fink. Of these three, the Cincinnati Bridge ended up in L&N > hands (and became "the L&N Bridge" to generations of railroaders and fans). > The other two were eventually wholly owned by the PCC&StL (PRR Lines > Southwest). > > I believe all three bridges were substantially rebuilt between 1890 and 1918; > in the case of the N&C, traffic levels had exploded and required replacement > in only 20 years. Redesign by the Corps of Engineers of the canal/locks > around the Falls of the Ohio precipitated replacement of the Louisville > Bridge with a very heavy double track bridge (and replacement of a swing > bridge with a vertical lift) in 1917; we're not sure when the second track > was removed from this bridge, but its single track remaining is used daily by > short line Louisville & Indianapolis to switch its trackage on the Kentucky > side of the Ohio River. > > > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:26:30 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] B-6sb Gene and the list, I think you mean B6sb 6347 (I'm sure it's just a typo; you should see my punctuation and grammar on a bad day); 5347 was one of the early K4s pacifics.. I can't tell you about her assignments, but she was built by Juniata (c/n 4046) in August 1926 and dropped from the roster in January 1952. Doug endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > I just bought a B-6sb in O scale and it is detailed and lettered for engine > # 5347. I found a shot of it in Chicago during the late 1940's. Did this > engine stay in this area or migrate to another region or facility? > I model the eastern portion of the Pennsy and can't find too many of the > late B-6sb out there. There were a group of B-6sb built with outwardly > sloping cylinders and a single cab window. > > Gene Deimling > PRRH&TS #6418 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:40:00 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 / 130P75 Kris and the list, PRR tenders designed for passenger service had rear tender steps that angled to the rear of the tender. The 110P70 tender that comes with the Bachmann K4s is a good example of this; the old Bowser high sided tender (more or less a 90P75) is another. I believe (but do not have handy to check) that the Bowser 130P75 also has passenger steps. PRR tenders intended for freight service had simple stirrup steps instead of the rear-angled passenger tender steps. However, as with everything PRR, check photos; passenger tenders with the passenger steps can be found in freight service and the plain stirrup step tenders can be found in passenger service. Early L1s engines came with a long road pilot (see photos of the 1752, the first L1s). A photo of the 1923 "Prosperity Special" shows the lead L1s with a slatted pilot (Carletons' Pennsy Steam: A to T, page 150). This pilot was more commonly found on passenger power (although the 475 Baldwin I1s engines had this pilot as delivered) like the K4s, G5s, E3sd/E5s/E6s, and D16sb to name but a few. I prefer the term slat pilot, while others prefer the term "hen coop." As far as I can tell, by the 1940s, all L1s engines had footboard pilots. A shot on page 150 of Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T shows one of the 3 L1s engines sold to them with a slat pilot. I think she left the PRR in this configuration, because AT&SF preferred boiler tube pilots. I hope this clears up some of the issues. Doug "Kollar, Kris" wrote: > Could someone please elaborate on he difference between freight and > passenger tender steps? Also please explain this comment, "BTW, both > these L-1's had footboards not bar pilots" What does that mean? > > Thanks, > > Kris > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rail Classics [mailto:railclassics@psn.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 8:34 PM > To: PRR Talk > Subject: [PRR] L1 / 130P75 > > Hello Steve and Bruce; > > Just to clarify, when I was connected with Railworks we did import a L-1 > version with a 130P75 tender. The engine was #1614 with a modified front > end, bar pilot and passenger air lines. The tender was a 130P75 without > doghouse and passenger rear steps on the tender. The photo was dated 1948 > for what it's worth. Sometimes you will see the same engine photo from > different sources with different dates on the rear of the photos. Also, > #1662 and #3483 had 130P75 tanks on them at one time. They had small > doghouses, freight type rear tender steps and rear footboards. BTW, both > these L-1's had footboards not bar pilots in the photos. I must stress "in > these photos", because one will find photos taken at another time with a > completely different engine and tender configuration. When we did the > research for the I-1 project, we found photos of a given engine number with > different engine appliances and tender combinations within a few years span. > I hope this information helps you on the issue. > > EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS > www.railclassics.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:09:29 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] L1s 1614 Hello list, A few weeks back, I posted (under the oft-renewed discussion of PRR tenders) that no L1s engines had 130P75 tenders. I was wrong on this one. I haven't seen a photograph of the 1614, but I can give a bit of her history. She was built by Juniata (c/n 2968) in August 1915, and sold for scrap in January 1950. Now, to throw some fuel on the fire. Does anyone have shots of an L1s operating in the 50s with a 130P75? Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:14:18 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] PRR Brass steam Hello list, Since my brass collection consists of a single engine, this post has nothing like Gary Mittner's depth of experience. However, I really like my Lambert H6sb. It is sturdy and runs well even with it's open frame motor. I believe mine was test run only, as her amp draw has dropped even further than when I last posted about her in December. I am inclined to agree with Gary that the Railworks version is probably better for those of you who'd like to avoid redetailing and/or remotoring. I will have to add a power reverse and front air tank to my hand reversed model and change the tender trucks to model the 2846, whereas Railworks has a version of that engine correctly detailed and painted, with a can motor. It was, however, beyond my budget. I am allocating my tax refund for the Rail Classics K4sa 612; I eagerly anticipate it! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1s 1614 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 22:50:53 -0800 Doug--No photos but a little more to add to the mystery. In the Spring 1988 Keystone Roger Keyser says on pg. 29 "All 100 class 130P82A were converted to 130P75 by 1949. Though these tenders were intended for use with K4s locomotives, a number appeared behind L1s and M1 classes." Somebody must have a photo somewhere. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vastano,Sam" Subject: [PRR] Painting Brass PRR 0-8-0 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:49:14 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF689B.0189F060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was wondering if anyone could help me. t bought my first brass piece, = it is a bit tarnished and I want to paint it. I need some advice. 1. Do I have to remove the tarnish befor I paint & how do I remove it? 2. Did switchers still get painted DGLE?=20 3. Smoke box area is it painted graphite color? Thanks for your help. Sam =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF689B.0189F060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was wondering if anyone could help = me. t=20 bought my first brass piece, it is a bit tarnished and I want to paint = it. I=20 need some advice.
 
1. Do I have to remove the tarnish = befor I paint=20 & how do I remove it?
 
2. Did switchers still get painted=20 DGLE? 
 
3. Smoke box area is it painted = graphite=20 color?
 
Thanks for your help.
 
Sam
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF689B.0189F060-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:50:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Back Online From: Jerry Britton Sorry about the break in service (approx. 7 a.m.-4:45 p.m. today). A SPAMmer was using a new distribution method to bounce mail off of our server. Not exactly what they call "mail relay", but a newer tactic. Anyway, it took our server down and we hopefully have prevented it from happening again. Back to your regular programming... -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Information on Traffic on NS ex-Pennsy Lines Available Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:20:22 -0500 There's far too much to post individually, but anyone interested in both CSX and NS traffic approaching/departing the Pittsburgh area is invited to check for DAILY updates on the "OS/Sightings" page at: www.forcomm.net/flagstop We invite your input/updates as well. Thanks in advance for stopping by. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:32:25 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Ancient Penn Central RR map at L.o.C. I just returned from a visit to the railroad map collection at the Library of Congress. They have a map, publist 1854-1858, of "The Pennsylvania Cenral Railroad, it's Branches and Major Connections, the shortest Way fron West to East" or some such title. It displays the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia PRR line, the Northern Central Balmer to Williamsport, the P&E Lock Haven to Erie, the Bald Eagle Lock haven to Altoona, and a line from Phila. to Jersey City (URRNJ?). No surprises so far. All those were eventually assimilated into PRR. The thing which puzzles me is a bold line running ENE from Harrrisburg through Reading, Allentown, Easton and on into New Jersey, joining the Phila.-Jersey City line somewhat southwest of Newark. What is that thing through Reading and why is it shown as a bold line on the map? I assume it is a line of the Reading (or P&R then) but I hadn't known there was ever a close relation between RDG and PRR (other than the P-RSL thing) yet ALL (except that one) of the lines shown bold were assimilated. Was there once a cosy RDG-PRR relationship which cooled sometime in the late 19th century? Puzzled in Jeannette ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vastano,Sam" Subject: [PRR] Is anybody out there? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:53:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF68C5.7F1E4740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I haven't had any mesages this morning.=20 Thanks Sam ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF68C5.7F1E4740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I haven't had any mesages this = morning.=20
 
Thanks
 
Sam
 
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF68C5.7F1E4740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:43:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Only a Test ........Only a Test......... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:56:30 EST Subject: [PRR] FONT vs. Type Face vs. Lettering Style and "Anachronistic A confession: I have a clear character defect, probably caused by being raised by two English teachers. It bothers me that everybody now uses the word "FONT" when they mean "TYPE FACE" or "LETTERING STYLE". Granted, we all have computers. But I'll lay good odds a railroad never used the word "font". Feedback, anyone? As if that weren't bad enough, I have another problem -- seems like every other modeler in the known universe has an ALPS printer (or wishes he could afford one) and is rolling his own decals. Of course, that's good. But what bugs me is the freewheeling adoption of "computer" type faces never seen on railroad cars prior to 1970 (if you model after 1970, you can delete right now). Some of Microsoft's type faces, of course, only go back to the beginning of Windows or so (post- 1985?). Looking at some (actually over 6000) freight car pix, between 1925 and 1950, it appears the majority of roads were marking cars with the "Railroad Roman" suggested in AAR's data sheets; these sheets are reproduced in Car Cyc's and in ORER's. Of course, departures from this "standard" were many, including the gothic lettering styles used by ACL, Great Northern, Canadian National and CP, and Frisco/C&EI, but a huge number of roads (even the mighty Pennsy) were in the fold with "RRR" (Railroad Roman) in a normal or extended version. For me, the end of Eden was when Helvetica dry transfer lettering became common (1970's), and it started showing up on model railroad equipment supposedly representing the 60's. I don't want to be a "scale rule Richard" (sorry, obvious pun), but I guess I lump this with the steam-pulling-hicubes type of thinking -- fine if you want to have fun, but don't expect me to remain undistracted. Anyone else bothered by "Anachronistic Lettering"? Rick Tipton A 20th Century Railfan/Modeler Marooned in the 21st Century ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:25:43 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting Brass PRR 0-8-0 --------------03283393B59B5FAD4D7ED322 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sam: Vastano,Sam wrote: > I was wondering if anyone could help me. t bought my first brass > piece, it is a bit tarnished and I want to paint it. I need some > advice. 1. Do I have to remove the tarnish befor I paint & how do I > remove it? > The loco and tender probably have a coat of clear lacquer. This > should be removed either by stripping or sand blasting. There are > commercial model railroad strippres available, but they're usually not > too good on this type of lacquer. Best bet is a strong stripper like > Zip Strip which is available in hardware stores. (Be carefull with > this stuff.) As far as the tarnish is concerned, sand blasting is > your best bet, but a rubbing with Brasso may do the trick. You can > paint over the tarnish, but it will probably show through the paint a > little. When you shoot the clear finish coat however, this should > dissapear. > 2. Did switchers still get painted DGLE? > Yes, but the running gear frame, etc. should be black. Grimy black, > or Scale Coat grime looks good also. A couple of coats of Scale Coat > Brunswick Green, (DGLE), on the boiler and tender is nice. Many > people prime the model with a grey primer, but this tends to make the > paint too green. Better to skip this and spray the DGLE twice. > > 3. Smoke box area is it painted graphite color? Yes, also the firebox. The roof should be a shade of red, I use oxide red. A 50/50 mixture of Scale Coat, flat and gloss will finish the model nicely. Spray this at about 14 psi. Any higher value may result in a dusty look. I normally use a pressure of 30 to 35 psi for the paint, which is mixed 50/50 with Scale Coat thinner. Baking at 175 to 200 degrees hardens the paint quickly, but watch your oven carefully. There have been cases of engines falling to pieces due to an overly hot oven. There are many other fine paints on the market, I just happen to be hooked on Scale Coat. I think their DGLE looks the best. Regards, Larry > > --------------03283393B59B5FAD4D7ED322 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sam:

Vastano,Sam wrote:

 I was wondering if anyone could help me. t bought my first brass piece, it is a bit tarnished and I want to paint it. I need some advice. 1. Do I have to remove the tarnish befor I paint & how do I remove it?
The loco and tender probably have a coat of clear lacquer.  This should be removed either by stripping or sand blasting.  There are commercial model railroad strippres available, but they're usually not too good on this type of lacquer.  Best bet is a strong stripper like Zip Strip which is available in hardware stores.  (Be carefull with this stuff.)  As far as the tarnish is concerned, sand blasting is your best bet, but a rubbing with Brasso may do the trick.  You can paint over the tarnish, but it will probably show through the paint a little.  When you shoot the clear finish coat however, this should dissapear.
  2. Did switchers still get painted DGLE?
Yes, but the running gear frame, etc. should be black.  Grimy black, or Scale Coat grime looks good also.  A couple of coats of Scale Coat Brunswick Green, (DGLE), on the boiler and tender is nice.  Many people prime the model with a grey primer, but this tends to make the paint too green.  Better to skip this and spray the DGLE twice.
 
 3. Smoke box area is it painted graphite color?
Yes, also the firebox.  The roof should be a shade of red, I use oxide red.

A 50/50 mixture of Scale Coat, flat and gloss will finish the model nicely.  Spray this at about 14 psi.  Any higher value may result in a dusty look.  I normally use a pressure of 30 to 35 psi for the paint, which is mixed 50/50 with Scale Coat thinner.  Baking at 175 to 200 degrees hardens the paint quickly, but watch your oven carefully.  There have been cases of engines falling to pieces due to an overly hot oven.  There are many other fine paints on the market, I just happen to be hooked on Scale Coat.  I think their DGLE looks the best. 

Regards,

Larry

 
 
 
  --------------03283393B59B5FAD4D7ED322-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:06:16 EST Subject: [PRR] Did any one notice? Hey Yuze Gize, I was just going through Kris Kollar's article (MAINLINE MODELER JAN, 2000) with the fine tooth comb again for the 3rd time and I noticed a couple of things. First he says that he has to strip the factory paint from the tender and boiler, does the new Mikado kit come primed or was it possible Kris bought it used and someone made an attempt at painting it. I know my I-1 was not prepainted. Is it only the older casting that are painted? I really like the way that Kris lightened the running gear lighter than the boiler as seen in the color picture on page 53. I compared it to the B&W photo of his model to the photo on page 55 and I think he captured the effect real well wouldn't you agree. The photo of the actual engine appears to be freshly out shopped, and the tape over the head light is certainly leading me to believe that is the case, what would you guys think? Can anyone Identify where that photo was taken? I am not trying to knock his craftsmanship here but you guys look real close at the finish photo of his engine on page 53 and give me your honest opinion of the running board on the boiler, are they fine the way they are or would you replace them with some styrene to decrease the thickness? Did yours come with the cast underframe or a fabricated brass like my K-4 I bought about 17 years ago? Any one else have the K-4 with the brass frame. Kris I don't mean to nitpick, but I want to redo mine and your article will be what I am going to follow. The second part is going to be released in Feb, 2000, again Great article Kris! Greg Doug Kisala, time for you to step to the plate... 3^) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:14:39 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Ancient Penn Central RR map at L.o.C. robert netzlof wrote: > I just returned from a visit to the Library of Congress. They have a map, > publist 1854-1858, of "The Pennsylvania Cenral Railroad, The thing which > puzzles me is a bold line running ENE from Harrrisburg through Reading, > Allentown, Easton and on into New Jersey, joining the Phila.-Jersey City > line somewhat southwest of Newark. What is that thing through Reading and > why is it shown as a bold line on the map? Greetings to Bob and the List: Not sure if this is the answer, but it may be. Before the PRR had secured its own usable through NY-Phila.-Harrisburg routing, some PRR east-west passenger trains used the "Allentown Route," which was marketed as such, using the RDG and CNJ between Jersey City, Allentown, Reading, and Harrisburg, and skipping Philadelphia altogether. I'm unaware of an actual date that this through service started, but it's possible that it was as early as 1858. With the completion of the PRR-controlled Connecting Railway in Phila. in 1867 (approximately, Frankford Jct. to Zoo) which facilitated NY-Phila-Hbg movements, PRR passenger trains to Pittsburgh and west ran via both routes for several years. The Allentown Route was 12 miles shorter. When PRR in 1871 gained direct control of the United NJ RR & Canal Co. and Phila. & Trenton RR (which had leased the CRy with PRR's assent), PRR no longer needed an alternate route and discontinued running trains via Allentown in the spring of 1872. (Schotter, Growth & Development of PRR, p .75) Especially in the accuracy-challenged atmosphere of the 19th century, PRR sometimes drew heavy lines on maps that we today interpret as meaning something more than what the map originators intended. This often happened on passenger-oriented pamphlets, maps, timetables, etc., to make the point to the public that seamless service/connections existed. Maybe this is the reason for what you saw--rivals sometimes did cooperate if money could be made in the deal. Certainly there was no corporate connection between PRR and RDG. In that period, Reading was often jealous and suspicious of the PRR, and was about to attempt to put together its own empire consisting of LV, CNJ, Boston & Maine, and New York & New England. It also was about to buy into the great South Pennsylvania swindle, which was aimed squarely at wounding the PRR. Neither was successful, of course, and RDG paid the price for these and other episodes by suffering through a series of receiverships and reorganizations. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Psalm 119:105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Did any one notice? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 05:39:49 -0700 Hi Yurself! Greg, I too noticed the strange comment...I have one of the newer L1s kits from Bowser and it still is in natural zamac, and now has the cast frame...I guess the period of fabricated brass frames is over. Looking at the photos, I noticed that his model came with the original lead boiler...the new one is much crisper in detail (if a bit lighter). But, all in all a very nice job (much better than the I1s article in MR). anxiously awaiting comments... Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] FONT vs. Type Face vs. Lettering Style and Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 05:30:05 -0700 HI Rick and all (!) You ask > >Anyone else bothered by "Anachronistic Lettering"? > You Betcha! I've noticed this since...well since the 70's (for the same reason) and it literally bugs the hell out of me. But what can I do? Act as the "Prototype Police"? So I suffer in silence. Another bit peeve is the later-day usage of the word "Logo". Real railroads used hearalds, not logos. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:53:31 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] More on the Allentown Route A follow-up note . . . John Cunningham's book on the early history of RRs in NJ says CNJ began promoting the Allentown Route in 1862. He also says the routing included LV from Allentown to Easton/Phillipsburg. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Romans 8:1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:45:39 EST Subject: [PRR] T-1 Question On P.69 of Pennsy Srteamliners by Joe Welch is a picture of a T-1. There is a door on the side of the nose inside the handrail that is open. I was never aware of this door before. What is inside the nose other than access to the smokebox? This is a fairly large door that looks big enough to allow a person to enter. Any guesses as to why it is open in this photo? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] FONT vs. Type Face vs. Lettering Style and Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:43:50 -0500 Rick Tipton Wrote: >As if that weren't bad enough, I have another problem -- seems like every >other modeler in the known universe has an ALPS printer (or wishes he could >afford one) and is rolling his own decals. Of course, that's good. But what >bugs me is the freewheeling adoption of "computer" type faces never seen on >railroad cars prior to 1970 (if you model after 1970, you can delete right >now). Some of Microsoft's type faces, of course, only go back to the >beginning of Windows or so (post- 1985?). > As one of those modelers who has recently purchased an ALPS printer, I am interested in matching computer "fonts" to prototype (PRR) "lettering styles". Are there any fonts available that can be added to Windows 98 which are exact matches to PRR lettering styles. If not, which of the Windows 98 fonts come close. Bruce Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: RE: [PRR] Did any one notice? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:07:03 -0500 I wish I had the newer boiler casting. This locomotive was a 1st anniversary gift purchased in El Paso TX of all places. I'm working on my 11th anniversary so the kit was at least 10 years old. It was purchased ready to run. Don't know if Bowser built it or if it was used at the time (it certainly didn't look used). Thanks for answering my question what the black lines are over the head light of 1:1 version. I had no clue it was probably tape. Hopefully I'll get the opportunity to do an article on the K4 I'm working on right now. Although it's the old style Bachman engine, the new loco shell is basically the same as the old (the interior may be different to accommodate the new frame). It should give plenty of ideas to work from. For example I'm detailing the front of the steam chests, scratch built the boiler "saddle" & added a ba-zillion nut bolt castings to it, trying to replicate every bit of piping and wire coming off the generator and hanging on the front of the smoke box, opened up the cab roof hatch, scratch built from sheet brass a new "cinder deflector" on the cab roof to include all the mounting brackets..... the list is growing. My goal is to share this one with you folks as well. Thanks for any constructive criticism. It only makes a better model. Doug, get on the stick and start writing........ Kris -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 2:06 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: PROTOTYPEmodeler@onelist.com Subject: [PRR] Did any one notice? Hey Yuze Gize, I was just going through Kris Kollar's article (MAINLINE MODELER JAN, 2000) with the fine tooth comb again for the 3rd time and I noticed a couple of things. First he says that he has to strip the factory paint from the tender and boiler, does the new Mikado kit come primed or was it possible Kris bought it used and someone made an attempt at painting it. I know my I-1 was not prepainted. Is it only the older casting that are painted? I really like the way that Kris lightened the running gear lighter than the boiler as seen in the color picture on page 53. I compared it to the B&W photo of his model to the photo on page 55 and I think he captured the effect real well wouldn't you agree. The photo of the actual engine appears to be freshly out shopped, and the tape over the head light is certainly leading me to believe that is the case, what would you guys think? Can anyone Identify where that photo was taken? I am not trying to knock his craftsmanship here but you guys look real close at the finish photo of his engine on page 53 and give me your honest opinion of the running board on the boiler, are they fine the way they are or would you replace them with some styrene to decrease the thickness? Did yours come with the cast underframe or a fabricated brass like my K-4 I bought about 17 years ago? Any one else have the K-4 with the brass frame. Kris I don't mean to nitpick, but I want to redo mine and your article will be what I am going to follow. The second part is going to be released in Feb, 2000, again Great article Kris! Greg Doug Kisala, time for you to step to the plate... 3^) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale cabin car decals? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:55:48 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 20 Jan, Jeff Toreki wrote: > Just curious, does anyone know if there are any companies out there that > make decals in N scale for cabin cars from the 50s and 60s? Jeff, you may have to pick apart other decal sheets for this. Oddballs has a reasonable selection of PRR decals to work from; Microscale set 60-972 (Merchandise Service) also has good sets of CK- and SK-era lettering to dissect and rearrange. Good luck! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA Boxcars, flatcars, going-to-North Platte cars... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] kitbash B60 and B70 baggage cars Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:36:28 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 15 Jan, "lew matt" wrote: > I am currently preparing an article for publication on an easy kitbash of > the early PRR B60 and B70 Baggage cars. You *will* keep us posted on the progress and publication of this article, *won't* you? ;-} Thanks! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA Boxcars, flatcars, going-to-North Platte cars... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vastano,Sam" Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting Brass PRR 0-8-0 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:17:43 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BF6989.AD901440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you to all that replied. I think I can do this. Not much different = than a Bowser, But I just wanted to be sure. Thank you all again Sam -----Original Message----- From: Larry Reynolds To: Vastano,Sam Cc: PRR-TALK Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 12:41 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting Brass PRR 0-8-0 =20 =20 Hi Sam:=20 Vastano,Sam wrote:=20 I was wondering if anyone could help me. t bought my first = brass piece, it is a bit tarnished and I want to paint it. I need some = advice. 1. Do I have to remove the tarnish befor I paint & how do I = remove it?=20 The loco and tender probably have a coat of clear lacquer. This = should be removed either by stripping or sand blasting. There are = commercial model railroad strippres available, but they're usually not = too good on this type of lacquer. Best bet is a strong stripper like = Zip Strip which is available in hardware stores. (Be carefull with this = stuff.) As far as the tarnish is concerned, sand blasting is your best = bet, but a rubbing with Brasso may do the trick. You can paint over the = tarnish, but it will probably show through the paint a little. When you = shoot the clear finish coat however, this should dissapear.=20 2. Did switchers still get painted DGLE?=20 Yes, but the running gear frame, etc. should be black. Grimy = black, or Scale Coat grime looks good also. A couple of coats of Scale = Coat Brunswick Green, (DGLE), on the boiler and tender is nice. Many = people prime the model with a grey primer, but this tends to make the = paint too green. Better to skip this and spray the DGLE twice.=20 =20 3. Smoke box area is it painted graphite color? Yes, also the firebox. The roof should be a shade of red, I use = oxide red.=20 A 50/50 mixture of Scale Coat, flat and gloss will finish the model = nicely. Spray this at about 14 psi. Any higher value may result in a = dusty look. I normally use a pressure of 30 to 35 psi for the paint, = which is mixed 50/50 with Scale Coat thinner. Baking at 175 to 200 = degrees hardens the paint quickly, but watch your oven carefully. There = have been cases of engines falling to pieces due to an overly hot oven. = There are many other fine paints on the market, I just happen to be = hooked on Scale Coat. I think their DGLE looks the best. =20 Regards,=20 Larry=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BF6989.AD901440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you to = all that=20 replied. I think I can do this. Not much different than a Bowser, But I = just=20 wanted to be sure.
 
 
Thank you all again
 
Sam
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Larry Reynolds <reynoldl@gte.net>
To:=20 Vastano,Sam <svastano@ccia.com>
Cc:=20 PRR-TALK <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Friday, January 28, 2000 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Painting=20 Brass PRR 0-8-0

Hi Sam:=20

Vastano,Sam wrote:=20

 I was=20 wondering if anyone could help me. t bought my first brass = piece, it is=20 a bit tarnished and I want to paint it. I need some=20 advice. 1. = Do I have to=20 remove the tarnish befor I paint & how do I remove = it?=20
The loco and tender = probably have=20 a coat of clear lacquer.  This should be removed either by=20 stripping or sand blasting.  There are commercial model = railroad=20 strippres available, but they're usually not too good on this = type of=20 lacquer.  Best bet is a strong stripper like Zip Strip = which is=20 available in hardware stores.  (Be carefull with this = stuff.) =20 As far as the tarnish is concerned, sand blasting is your best = bet, but=20 a rubbing with Brasso may do the trick.  You can paint over = the=20 tarnish, but it will probably show through the paint a = little. =20 When you shoot the clear finish coat however, this should=20 dissapear.
  2.=20 Did switchers still get painted DGLE?
Yes, but the running gear frame, = etc. should=20 be black.  Grimy black, or Scale Coat grime looks good = also. =20 A couple of coats of Scale Coat Brunswick Green, (DGLE), on the = boiler=20 and tender is nice.  Many people prime the model with a = grey=20 primer, but this tends to make the paint too green.  Better = to skip=20 this and spray the DGLE twice.
  =
 3. Smoke box area is it painted = graphite=20 color?
Yes, also the firebox.  = The roof=20 should be a shade of red, I use oxide red.=20

A 50/50 mixture of Scale Coat, flat and gloss will finish the = model=20 nicely.  Spray this at about 14 psi.  Any higher value may = result=20 in a dusty look.  I normally use a pressure of 30 to 35 psi for = the=20 paint, which is mixed 50/50 with Scale Coat thinner.  Baking at = 175 to=20 200 degrees hardens the paint quickly, but watch your oven = carefully. =20 There have been cases of engines falling to pieces due to an overly = hot=20 oven.  There are many other fine paints on the market, I just = happen to=20 be hooked on Scale Coat.  I think their DGLE looks the = best. =20

Regards,=20

Larry=20

 
 =20
 
  = ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BF6989.AD901440-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:29:27 -0500 Subject: [PRR] ListServ Update From: Jerry Britton After 36 hours of seige, I am cautiously optimistic that the SPAM mail relay problem has been resolved. In order to lock it up, it was necessary to keep the server down for 12 or so hours today. Sorry! Many people were involved in counteracting this new form of mail relay, including the programmer of Eudora Internet Mail Server...from New Zealand! -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:30:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1s 1614 Steven, Doug, Well I found another photo album hidden underneath a stack of books. Among the 400+ photos in there were 2 dozen or so L1 photos. 2 of them have the 130 class tender. L1 # 3600, photo taken in April 1957 in East Altoona. Appears to be in the dead/storage line. L1 #3637, photo taken in Nov, 1954, West Philly. Again appears to be in a storage line. Both of these L1s have footboard pilots though. I have another photo of L1#3583. Photo taken in Oct. of 1952. Location was Ebenezer, NY. This loco has the passenger pilot, modernized frontend, and standard 90 class tender with doghouse. She is seen about to pull out of a passenger stop. Passenger car can be seen behind tender. I don't have the ablity to scan and show you guys right now, but if you want I can send them to you for you to view or scan and then send them back. Let me know..Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Walther's Blast Furnaces Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:34:35 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF69AD.90258560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, Giving very strong consideration in investing in two of those kits. What = I want to do is "modify" or backdate to exterior -skip loading.(ala the = J&L furnaces which used to be along the Parkway East in Pittsburgh). = Does anyone have info they are willing to share with yours truly = regarding said furnaces? Now I know these facilities were located along = the B&O line into their passenger terminal in Pgh, but I will use a bit = of "Modeler's License" and move them to the Pennsy main.=20 To those who have built these furnaces, how detailed are they? Will they = stand the scrutiny at the horizontal distance of, say 12". Would you = recommend picking up Dean Freytag's book on the subject? (In a nut = shell, what am I getting myself into?) Any and all feedback would be = appreciated. Thanks in advance. Walt Prusick=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF69AD.90258560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear List,
Giving very strong consideration in = investing in=20 two of those kits. What I want to do is "modify" or backdate to exterior = -skip=20 loading.(ala the J&L furnaces which used to be along the Parkway = East in=20 Pittsburgh). Does anyone have info they are willing to share with yours = truly=20 regarding said furnaces? Now I know these facilities were located along = the=20 B&O line into their passenger terminal in Pgh, but I will use a bit = of=20 "Modeler's License" and move them to the Pennsy main. 
 
To those who have built these furnaces, = how=20 detailed are they? Will they stand the scrutiny at = the horizontal=20 distance of, say 12". Would you recommend picking up Dean Freytag's = book on=20 the subject? (In a nut shell, what am I getting myself into?) Any and = all=20 feedback would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
Walt = Prusick 
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF69AD.90258560-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:50:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walther's Blast Furnaces Walt the Walthers furnaces do have exterior skip hoist for loading to the top bell. The furnaces are small for HO scale I believe they scale out to about a 600 ton per day unit. They come with very basic detailing but when details are added they really do look nice. I believe that Dean Freytag will be coming out with a second book on the Steel industry which will concentrate more on the modeling aspect. Dean has detailed up a Walthers furnace and it really looks nice. A section of the book will deal with additional detailing of the kit. If Walthers had come out with their furnaces a year or two earlier I wouldn't have scratchbuilt the two that I have. The original run sold out and Walthers has run a short second run so if you want any you might want to get them now. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:33:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Rail Fonts To the List: A Mr. Benn Coifman, now of Columbus, Ohio, has had various rail fonts available for a number of years for computers. His web site is at www.RailFonts.com. The good news is that he has many railroad fonts available. I personally have bought Reading, Western Maryland, and Railroad Roman and have been most pleased with them. Some others that come to mind are C&O and UP. He is very precise in his work with fonts and does a top notch job with them. The bad news is that he does not have any Pennsy styles available. I corresponded with him some time ago about them. The hurdle he faces with Pennsy fonts is that he needs master sets and has not found any yet. I suggested he try Hagley Library. If anyone out there on the List has such a set and would contact Mr. Coifman, I believe he might entertain the idea of doing some Pennsy fonts. Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:10:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walther's Blast Furnaces In a message dated 1/28/2000 10:46:41 PM Central Standard Time, walpru@stargate.net writes: << Would you recommend picking up Dean Freytag's book on the subject? >> Yes. This was one book that Walthers came out with that did have excellent content. Unlike their waterfront book which I thought was just a pretty picture book, but not much of a help to a modeler, IMHO. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:28:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walther's Blast Furnaces Having spent the vast bulk of my career in the steel industry I am somewhat disappointed with the Walthers effort. It is an extremely small furnace indicating one that would be a turn of the century vintage and probably phased out by the 1930's at the latest. I believe it could be made into a foundry coupola furnace and be more accurate in size. I intend to model Fairless Hills works of USS by modeling the transfer yard between the PRR and USS with the furnaces in relief against the backdrop. This will be proto for me since the yard is a couple of miles from the buildings. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:11:37 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR G30 Need builders (or VG) photo Hi all.... I have picked my G30 War Emergency Gon (N-Scale) project again. It has been on hold due to a lack of good reference photographs, particularly of the drop-end and original circle keystone paint. This class is represented in Wayners PRR Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams, but that aint good enough boys and girls. The drawings are not detailed enough as I am trying to create an accurate drop-end master for casting (personal, not commercial use ). Memory joggers...... 1) I THINK this class may have been represented in an earlier KEYSTONE article, but that's not clear by the index at Jerry's KEYSTONE CROSSINGS. My personal KEYSTONE collection starts sometime in 1994 2) Also, I think Sunshine produced a PRR G30 (HO) in resin, not too long ago. I would settle for a scan of their decal reference if anyone has saved one. ( I don't believe that is breaking any laws! ) Thanks Brian Butcher PRRT&HS #5540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:16:18 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Mantua's website has been updated, but no PRR Atlantic Hello list, I just checked Mantua's website, which was updated on 28 January. Sadly, they don't have pictures of the coming PRR Atlantic on it yet; it appears we'll have to wait a bit longer to figure out what version they're producing. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:31:43 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Decalling Eastern Car Works P70s Hello list, I'm currently on something of a P70 binge; I have two still under construction with a third just completed. As most of you who've dealt with these kits know, they're very flexible in terms of era; unlike the Bachmann cars, you can easily model an air conditioned P70. One frustrating aspect (this coming from a person who likes decalling) has been applying Champ's PRR passenger car stripes (I use the dulux gold variety). The upper stripe really should go right above the windows and the lower stripes should start on the belt rail below the windows. However, doing this on the ECW cars can be an exercise in frustration; the decals are hard to maneuver into place this way, with lots of room for error. While looking at one of my Bachmann P70s, I hit upon a solution. Be aware that doing things the way I'm describing is not correct PRR practice. However, it represents an acceptable compromise to me. The Bachmann P70s don't have rivets above the windows. I sanded off the rivets above the windows on my ECW kits, and voila, a nice, smooth surface to apply the upper stripe and road name. I've done two P70s (one P70R, the 3578, which had ice air conditioning and Commonwealth trucks and one as-yet-unnumbered P70FBR) this way, and it's a lot easier. I also apply the lower paired striping just below the belt rail, and it goes on much easier. To reiterate, this is not 100% accurate, but it does make completing these kits easier. One further wrinkle. While starting my latest P70FBR, I paged through NJ International's PRR Heavyweight Passenger Car Plan Book. I found that the P70FBRs didn't have those funky angled grab irons on the car ends. They also lacked the 90 degree grab irons below the belt rail as well. I'd done several regular P70s with the full grab sets, and it takes a long time (I watched a lot of TV while bending grabs and drilling holes). I went through more photos in the book, and I found PB70 5149, P70s 3544, 1881, 8055, 3521, 3726, 3565, and 1306 did not have the full set of grabs on the end; they had plain ends with only two small grabs right on the bottom of the car ends. The potential thusly exists for modelling P70s with or without the full grab sets as you desire. In my case, I'll be doing fewer cars with the full grab sets; I have a notoriously short attention span. It appears that the changeover point was sometime in the 30s; PB70 5149's photo is dated as 1937. Perhaps someone can enlighten us as to the formal date of the change. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:47:10 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Did any one notice? Greg and the List, I agree that Kris does great work! I believe that he started with an older kit; the current production K4s/L1s boiler has much thinner running boards. My latest Bowser K4s (the 7133) has the stock, thinner running boards; I left them alone except for adding the mechanical lubricator (my own particular soapbox, sorry). Bowser will take trade-ins; if you contact them, they'll tell you how to trade in your old lead K4s/L1s boilers for a nice new zinc one. I have never seen a Bowser kit that came in anything other than naked zinc and brass (a sample of eight or so in my case; feel free to contradict). Bowser does sell the L1s ready to run. When I lived in Maryland, I was a regular attendee of the Great Scale Train Show in Timonium; used Bowser steamers abounded there; they're pretty common on the used market. For a while during the 80s, Bowser produced most of its PRR steam kits with a brass chassis. The G5s still comes with a brass chassis, but all of the rest have reverted to zinc die castings. My G5s frame has been very durable (or it has survived all of my idiot attempts to damage it during construction), but my H10s (converted from an H9s) has the older brass frame, and the pilot mounting point is forever coming unsoldered, most recently when I shipped her up to my grandfather's for safekeeping. I prefer the zinc die cast chassis, and when I get some time, I'll convert my H10s to the zinc chassis. Doug TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey Yuze Gize, > I was just going through Kris Kollar's article (MAINLINE MODELER JAN, 2000) > with the fine tooth comb again for the 3rd time and I noticed a couple of > things. > > First he says that he has to strip the factory paint from the tender and > boiler, does the new Mikado kit come primed or was it possible Kris bought it > used and someone made an attempt at painting it. I know my I-1 was not > prepainted. Is it only the older casting that are painted? > > I really like the way that Kris lightened the running gear lighter than the > boiler as seen in the color picture on page 53. I compared it to the B&W > photo of his model to the photo on page 55 and I think he captured the effect > real well wouldn't you agree. The photo of the actual engine appears to be > freshly out shopped, and the tape over the head light is certainly leading me > to believe that is the case, what would you guys think? > > Can anyone Identify where that photo was taken? > > I am not trying to knock his craftsmanship here but you guys look real close > at the finish photo of his engine on page 53 and give me your honest opinion > of the running board on the boiler, are they fine the way they are or would > you replace them with some styrene to decrease the thickness? Did yours come > with the cast underframe or a fabricated brass like my K-4 I bought about 17 > years ago? Any one else have the K-4 with the brass frame. > > Kris I don't mean to nitpick, but I want to redo mine and your article will > be what I am going to follow. > > The second part is going to be released in Feb, 2000, again Great article > Kris! > > Greg > Doug Kisala, time for you to step to the plate... 3^) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:50:12 -0500 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch Info Because of some past discussions on this list, I have really taken an interest in the Elmira Branch. I was at Timonium today but was unable to find Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch by Bill Caloroso. Gonna try Lancaster next week. Couple of questions: Who are the resident Elmira Branch experts on the list? Until I can locate this book, are there any books in print currently that have info and photos of the Elmira Branch? Was the line abandoned and if so when? If abandoned, is it worth the trip to Williamsport and up to Elmira to photograph what's left? Until I can get an ETT of the line, what were the stops between Williamsport and Elmira? Were helpers required between Williamsport and Elmira and if so where was the summit of the grade located? Thanks in advance Mike Morrow New PRRT &HS member #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Decalling Eastern Car Works P70s Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:02:54 -0800 Doug--I put the lower decal below the belt rail, too. Used lots of Solvaset on the top stripe and kept the rivets on my P70's. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:31:43 EST Subject: [PRR] New PRR items I was at the Timonium show today and visited John Greene at the Bethlehem Car works table. John showed me the completed decal set for the new PRR 40' outside rib side door trailer. We finally have a complete PRR Truck Train decal set. The trailer is currently available at $24.95 ea. John also intends to do a PRR 32' smooth side , side door trailer . John indicated that in the future the PRR trailer decals will be available seperately. H ewill have the trailers available at the upcoming Springfield Mass. show next weekend. Talked with John teichmoeller about the new hopper book and he said that the last chapters will be in the publishers hands in a few weeks. All work is done on the book. John feels that Highland should have all the book by the end of February. If anyone is looking for some rare PRR brass items you mat want to contact Harold Greenwalt at the Brass Shop in Thornton Pa. ( outside Phila. ) He has picked up the Frank Ehlers collection. Frank collected PRR equiptment for the past 40 years or so and if it was made for the PRR he probably had it. The brass list is over 14 - 8 1/2 x 11 pages long, most are test run only and some are custom painted. Harold can be reached at 610-399-0159 I have dealt with Harold for about 15 years and am very pleased with his service. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:51:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch Info From: Jerry Britton On 1/29/00 8:50 PM, Mike Morrow at (morrow4@bellatlantic.net) wrote: > Because of some past discussions on this list, I have really taken an > interest in the Elmira Branch. I was at Timonium today but was unable to > find Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch by Bill Caloroso. Gonna try > Lancaster next week. Couple of questions: > Who are the resident Elmira Branch experts on the list? Unfortunately, the late John Keel was our expert. I know some, as do Drew McGee (sp?), Ken McCorry, Mike Bezilla and a few others who will chime in. > Until I can locate this book, are there any books in print currently > that have info and photos of the Elmira Branch? "The History of the Northern Central Railway", bu Gunnarson is a "must have". The branch was actually built by the NCRy. It's construction and early history is in this book, also out of print. > Was the line abandoned and if so when? Conrail era, I beleive. Passenger traffic stpoped in the 1950's, but coal traffic continued. > If abandoned, is it worth the trip to Williamsport and up to Elmira to > photograph what's left? I believe so. The RoW may be found in several locations, especially just north of Williamsport. Seeing it gives one a better concept of how the line hugged the sides of the mountains and crossed numerous streams. > Until I can get an ETT of the line, what were the stops between > Williamsport and Elmira? Not sure how many were stops, but Colorosso's book shows the following locations on its map: Hepburnville, Cogan, Powys, Trout Run (very scenic), Field, Bodine, Bergan, Marsh Hill Junction (jct. w/Susquehanna & New York RR), Ralston, Max, Roaring Branch, Leolyn, Grover, Canton, Lowrey, Alba, Cowley, Troy Dense, Tin Bridge, Columbia Crossroads, Sned, Snedikerville, Gillett, Fassett, Nypen, PA/NY LINE, Kendall (Kendall Tower) (int. w/Erie RR), Southport (coal marshalling yard), Shannon, Southport Junction (jct. Delaware Lackawanna & Western and Erie RRs.), Elmira. > Were helpers required between Williamsport and Elmira and if so where > was the summit of the grade located? Yes, helpers from Williamsport to Southport yard. If you are modeling the line and are featuring coal traffic, you should consider the following spots: Newberry Yard, Williamsport (could be hidden staging) Trout Run (scenic) Canton (decent size town on middle of branch) Kendall (very important tower) Southport (coal marshalling yard) Elmira (interchange, industry, etc. could be hidden staging) It's also worth noting that above Elmira are two incredibly beautiful high trestles. John Keel sent me photos of one before he passed away last year. I'll try to get it posted. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:06:16 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch Info On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Jerry Britton wrote: > > Was the line abandoned and if so when? > > Conrail era, I beleive. Passenger traffic stpoped in the 1950's, but coal > traffic continued. A good portion was dropped immediately after Agnes in 1972 and never returned, basically all of between Williamsport and Elmira. > > If abandoned, is it worth the trip to Williamsport and up to Elmira to > > photograph what's left? > > I believe so. The RoW may be found in several locations, especially just > north of Williamsport. Seeing it gives one a better concept of how the line > hugged the sides of the mountains and crossed numerous streams. I didn't consider much of what I saw between Williamsport and Elmira photo-worthy when I did just that in July That said, I did take 3 shots, which you can find in: http://www.dementia.org/~shadow/images/northerncentral/ -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:56:18 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6B21.66875060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike...I've got the book...Pennsylvania Railroad, Elmira Branch...I can = loan it to you until you secure your own copy, or just to review. Let me = know if your interested. Robert Holden, rholden@superpa.net ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6B21.66875060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike...I've got the book...Pennsylvania Railroad, = Elmira=20 Branch...I can loan it to you until you secure your own copy, or just to = review.=20 Let me know if your interested. Robert Holden,=20 rholden@superpa.net
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF6B21.66875060-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:59:19 EST Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch information Between Williamsport and Elmira, the stations were in south to north order as follows: Hepburnville, Trout Run, Bodine, Bergan, Roaring Branch, Grover, Canton (only depot still standing), Cowly, Dense, Troy, Columbia X Roads, Sned, Gillett, Fassett, NYPEN, Kendall, Southport, and Southport Jct. These are as shown in my PRR Northern Region Timetable NO.8 of April 29,1962. The Canton station is the only one of these known to still be standing and it is used as some sort of Community center. Passenger service was discontinued in late 1955, the line knocked out of service in 1972 by Hurricane Agnes, though it continued to be shown in Penn Central employee timetables right up to the end of that railroad. Conrail finished off that stretch of the line shortly after that railroad's formation in 1976. The stretch north of the Erie main line to Horseheads is still in use and the Horseheads depot is being restored historically. I hope this info helps. Jim Mancuso Perry, NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] April 1952 Modern Railroads From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:17:05 -0600 A couple of years ago I purchased two issues of the magazine `Modern Railroads' at an antique mall in Omaha Neb. The April 1952 issue has a large article titled 'Pennsylvania Railroad Inaugurates Three New Streamliners'. The article covers the debut of the Congressionals (Morning and Afternoon) and the Senator and talks in detail about the new cars and all about the design of the Budd built cars. I also found it fascinating that other ads in the magazine also talk about different items that went into the cars (i.e. there is an ad from Timken talking about the roller bearings they used on the cars). A really refreshing look at some of the nicest passenger cars the PENNSY owned. Randy Williamson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:24:10 EST Subject: [PRR] Re:ACCUMATES Coupler size Stu, Dan and all, There is a distinct difference between the KADEE #711 and the new Proto HO ACCUMATE coupler, particularly when it come to scale size and dimension of the face and length of the two. The Accumate has a "coupler" look were as the #711 is different, sort of long and shinny and thin. Remember this is a Type E coupler dimension too, not like the typical type D coupler. So even as good as it looks it is a bigger couple than the norm. But nonetheless more scale looking than the usual knuckle type coupler. After seeing them at the Hobby Show I am convince if the works was well then I will convert my fleet over. Greg Martin ================================================ ============================================================= Dan's original post: << All, In our quest for near perfection, how many of you will change to prototypical sized couplers? Doesn't KADEE make some in HO scale? ACCURAIL has come out with what it claims to be correct size couplers. Comments? Dan Moses Lake (Moses Hole), WA >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:ACCUMATES Coupler size Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:47:31 -0700 Greg, and all... I too am looking forward to seeing the Accumate, but have you had a chance to look over the couplers made by Sergern Engineering? You might want to check out their homepage at: http://user.icx.net/~sergent/index.htm They are doing a shelf-type coupler (unfortunately not usable for PRR...it's a little late) and are considering doing a titelock design (can you imagine one on the tail of a T-1 tender?) Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Rochon" Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car Assignments Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:47:35 -0500 I am trying to find information on which cabin cars (by number and class) were assigned to the Maryland Division (in particular the Baltimore area) in the 1943-44 timeframe. I am trying to establish what would be a representative cabin car mix for the Baltimore area in 1943-44. Ideally, I would like to find actual cabin car number assignments to help make my modelling efforts as realistic as possible. A number of years ago Roger Keyser provided me with copies of the M.P. 229 Assignment of Locomotives for the Maryland Division. Does similar information exist for cabin cars? The Dec 73 KEYSTONE has a PRR cabin car roster dated May 15, 1957. Does anyone know of a similar roster for the 1943-44 timeframe? I appreciate any of your inputs in this area. Thanks, Brian Rochon Silver Spring, MD PRRT&HS #3297 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:07:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] April 1952 Modern Railroads The article covers the debut of the Congressionals (Morning and Afternoon) and the Senator and talks in detail about the new cars and all about the design of the Budd built cars. I also found it fascinating that other ads in the magazine also talk about different items that went into the cars . If you can find a 19th Edition of the Car Builders Cyclopedia (1953) it also has much detail and many interior shots on the Congo and Senator. There are at least 8 pages with all interior diagrams and some exterior shots. I am glad to have one in my library. If there is enough interest I could scan the pages for Gerry's growing collection as soon as my scanner returns from being fixed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:15:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] covered hopper ventures Jim and all, Although when the Two bay hopper fleet sizes were first growing it is true that they were pretty much a proprietary loading car (not interchanged). As shippers began to demand more covered cars for clay, salt, sand and other heavy bulk items. The railroads had to allow the commodities to go off line more often and invest more in new cars in order to keep shippers online with you (the RR). If you (the RR) were not willing to contribute cars into pools at a loading location (origin shipper) then the receiver on the destination side railroad might not receive any of the products produced at your origin. This same theory came into play later in the AUTO industry real heavy. Pool cars were assigned to specific service and were seldom allow to vary form that service, this is easy to do when raw materials are tight as well as manufactured product are in high demand. When supply line loosened or cars became more plentiful then the cars were free top move into other service and service areas. So to answer your question regarding the two bay cars, yes it would be possible to see an NYC car on the ACL picking up a load of clay for a paper plant or the China industry around Pittsburgh, PA/Ohio/West Virginia pottery manufactures. You might even see a P&WV car on the NKP as they were in assigned pool service for the Cement Plant behind the Pittsburgh area (near where the airport is now) to a receiver on the NKP (the receiver escapes me at the moment). If a Railroad has a load going to the NYC from the ACL and they have an empty NYC car near that point then the NYC empty should/could haul the origin Railroads load home. It is part of a perdiem exchange agreement. Some cars are classified as ARR CSD 145 which says return home on the fastest route as an empty and do not reload. Many cars are in this type of service today as is our Cascade Warehouse Centerbeam cars. It can be tough to keep this all straight but I thought if you all had clearer understanding you might see why a Santa Fe flat car might have a load of steel bridge girders (during the late fifties and early sixties during the interstate highway expansion) with PRR or PLE cars as idler flats. The idler flats would not accrue any perdiem while on the HOME ROAD but the Load would (which the DESTINATION carrier would pay to the ORIGIN carrier). Once the interchange was made the Santa Fe would have a prediem free load generating revenue and paying perdiem on the to idler cars. Confusing, not really but if you have spare equipment certainly a way to make an extra buck without leasing your cars to another carrier. Another good example might be a GN car made empty in the upper New York area from a haul of lumber from the PNW, then reloaded back to Seattle with a load of China or slate roofing from the same area. As long as the car were not in assigned service CSD145 then the return empty cars could be seen in Ashtabula, Ohio behind an NKP Mike or at Conway, PA on the PRR. Greg Martin Greg Martin << From: "Jim Six" Y'all, I want to add several ACF-type and PS/2 two-bay covered cement hoppers to my collection. Question: how far of home rails did these freight cars venture? For instance would an NYC car have visited Georgia or Florida or an ACL car made it to Ohio? I am asking this in the context of a 1955-1965 setting. Jim Six >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:19:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: ACCUMATES Coupler size In a message dated 1/30/00 11:24:10 AM Mountain Standard Time, TGREGMRTN writes: << There is a distinct difference between the KADEE #711 and the new Proto HO ACCUMATE coupler, particularly when it come to scale size and dimension of the face and length of the two. The Accumate has a "coupler" look were as the #711 is different, sort of long and shinny and thin. Remember this is a Type E coupler dimension too, not like the typical type D coupler. So even as good as it looks it is a bigger couple than the norm. But nonetheless more scale looking than the usual knuckle type coupler. After seeing them at the Hobby Show I am convince if the works was well then I will convert my fleet over. >> Greg, The only problem I have at this point with the new Accumate couplers is the operating mechanism. It uses the scissors actions like the standard accumate. I don't know yet how well it works on the new coupler, but the standard ones don't work all that well. I have some that came on some Atlas locomotives, and they don't work very well. And this is only on a test track! So at this point I am skeptical. However, I am hoping these new couplers from Accumate work as well as the old stand-by Kadees, because I love the realistic look of them. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:01:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [CYBER] Re: Chat Room Proposal From: Jerry Britton On 1/10/00 4:57 PM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > An update on the Chat Room Proposal... > > Requests to date for this service: dozens > > Donations to date: 2 for $30 It is January 30th and no further donations have arrived. If you recall, $300 in donations we required in order for me to foot the other $300 in costs. No use waiting until tomorrow, it's a moot point. The proposal is dead. No chat room this year. I'm sorry for the two who sent in donations. They will be mailed back this week. For the dozens of others who have requested a chat room, kindly hold your requests until next January...perhaps then you'll have the checkbook handy! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:04:44 -0500 From: Christopher Chany Subject: [PRR] Super Bowl Trains Listers, This being Super Bowl Sunday I have a question. We all know you could get to Saint Louis, home of the Rams, from NY, my home, by a PRR passenger train. How about to the home of the Titans? I'll take 2 different routes but both must start on the PRR out of Penn Station. The fastest and the one with the most route miles on the PRR. Please give a year for your trip. Sincerely, Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:24:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Super Bowl Trains Routing : Cincinnati Limited via PRR; New York to Cincinnati, L&N from Cincinnati to Nashville, or Broadway Limited; New York to Chicago, Monon's Thoroughbred;Chicago to Louisville, thence any L&N train you could grab to Nashville from there. It all begins on the Pennsy in any event. Reason I suggested a Chicago routing as a possibility is that I am sure there are mileage collectors on the list. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Elmira Branch Info Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:22:37 -0500 >Mike -- Did you ever look at the track charts that I posted? I received >them from Bill Volkmer and posted copies of all of them on >http://www.idrive.com Go into my storage area "roybreon" as a visitor >and select the Elmira Branch folder. In that are about fifteen tiff files >of all the sections of the branch. They can be downloaded. > >The parts of the Elmira Branch just north of Williamsport have been largely >covered over by the new Rt. 15 expressway. Several of the old bridges over >Lycoming Creek are still visible however. I grew up in Williamsport and we >used to call them First Bridge, Second Bridge, and up to Fourth Bridge as >one headed north out of Williamsport. The ROW at Powey's has been covered >by the same new Rt. 15. North of Powey's, the ROW can be seen easily to the >right of Rt. 15, especially just a you approach Trout Run. I remember >seeing many a coal train puffing north in that area. Rt. 15 cuts west at >Trout Run and the ROW follows to the right of Rt. 14 north to New York. In >New York, the bridge over the Erie Canal in Newark still stands but is >"unoccupied". The line still runs north from Newark to Rt. 104 at >Wallington Jct.. where it crossed the old NYC Hojack Line. The PRR line is >now used by the Ontario Midland RR who also uses the NYC Hojack in that area >(shades of the PennCentral). Tracks from Wallington Jct. to the Sodus Bay >Yard and the mammoth coal dock are both gone. The yard area is clear and >the engine house and yard office building still stand. The pier foundations >of the coal dock are used by a marina. > >Roy Breon >Pittsford, NY >roybreon@netzero.net > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Morrow >To: PRR-Talk >Date: Saturday, January 29, 2000 9:02 PM >Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch Info > > >>Because of some past discussions on this list, I have really taken an >>interest in the Elmira Branch. I was at Timonium today but was unable to >>find Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch by Bill Caloroso. Gonna try >>Lancaster next week. Couple of questions: >>Who are the resident Elmira Branch experts on the list? >>Until I can locate this book, are there any books in print currently >>that have info and photos of the Elmira Branch? >>Was the line abandoned and if so when? >>If abandoned, is it worth the trip to Williamsport and up to Elmira to >>photograph what's left? >>Until I can get an ETT of the line, what were the stops between >>Williamsport and Elmira? >>Were helpers required between Williamsport and Elmira and if so where >>was the summit of the grade located? >>Thanks in advance >> >>Mike Morrow >>New PRRT &HS member #6703 > __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:41:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch Info Mike, There's a hobby shop here in the Twin Cities that has a couple copies of the hardcover Northern Central book. Another shop in St. Paul I beleive has both the books, the hardcover and the soft cover Elmira Branch book. Nane of that shop is Como Shops and he's a big dealer in new and used railroad books. Check the internet yellow pages for the number ; if needed, feel free to get back to me and I'll send you the numbers,etc. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Walther's Blast furnace Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:47:05 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF6B4A.05B408E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, A heart-felt thank you to all those who responded to my post concerning = the blast furnaces. All those favorable comments have pushed me over the = edge. Now to get to it! Thanks again Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF6B4A.05B408E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear List,
A heart-felt thank you to all those who = responded=20 to my post concerning the blast furnaces. All those favorable comments = have=20 pushed me over the edge. Now to get to it!
Thanks again
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF6B4A.05B408E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:06:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Question In a message dated 1/28/2000 5:21:02 PM Central Standard Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << On P.69 of Pennsy Srteamliners by Joe Welch is a picture of a T-1. There is a door on the side of the nose inside the handrail that is open. I was never aware of this door before. What is inside the nose other than access to the smokebox? This is a fairly large door that looks big enough to allow a person to enter. Any guesses as to why it is open in this photo? Thanks >> I haven't seen an answer to your question, but I have a few comments. First, it is difficult to see if the door opening is a very fitted one. It seems to be plugged with whatever jagged piece of sheet metal was around at the time. Second, in looking at the latest Penn Valley video of Pennsy in the 30s and 40s, it is clear from the T1 manufacturing films (a real delight, BTW) that the door wasn't there as-built. Can't add much more. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] G-24 USRA rebuild Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:27:05 -0800 I need help painting and lettering a G-24 USRA gondola for the PRR. This is and O scale car. Can anyone help me find: 1) a lettering diagram for this car? 2) a photo or this car? 3) Does the champ decal set cover this car? Thanks, Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Special interest in the Renovo Yards Always looking for photos of the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:28:26 EST Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Elmira Branch Info The stations between Williamsport and Elmira were as follows: Hepburnville, Trout Run, Bodine, Bergan, Roaring Branch, Grover, Canton (only depot known to still be standing, used as community center), Cowley, Dense, Troy, Columbia X Roads, Sned, Gillett, Fassett, NYPEN, Kendall, Southport. all are shown in my PRR Northern Region Timetable NO.8 of April 29, 1962 and appear in all later PRR and most if not all Penn CEntral employee timetables covering this territory which by then was part of the Central Region. If you get any Penn Central Central Region timetable, you will find most of these stations shown in it. If Roy needs to borrow my Northern Region timetable, I will need his address so that I can send it to him on loan. Mine is as follows: James Mancuso 56B South Main Street Perry, NY 14530 (716) 237-6847 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:16:52 -0500 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch Responses I am overwhelmed by the responses I received to my questions on the Elmira Branch. Thank you for your kindness and generosity in sharing your knowledge. You've given me some great info to get started researching. Thanks again. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "cos" Subject: [PRR] Felton Delaware Wreck Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:07:06 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_015E_01BF6B76.BA6ECDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy All: No there is no wreck currently at Felton Delaware. I found some photos = of a wreck at Felton in 1925! =20 Maybe somebody out in cyber land has some more details on the wreck? http://www.wsbcos.com/PRRFelton/wreck.htm Cos Home - http://www.wsbcos.com Railroad pages - http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm ------=_NextPart_000_015E_01BF6B76.BA6ECDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy All:
No there is no wreck currently at Felton Delaware.  I found = some=20 photos of a wreck at Felton in 1925! 
Maybe somebody out in cyber land has some more details on the = wreck?
http://www.wsbcos.com/= PRRFelton/wreck.htm
 
Cos
Home - http://www.wsbcos.com
Railroad = pages - http://www.wsbcos.com/train= smenu.htm
------=_NextPart_000_015E_01BF6B76.BA6ECDC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "cos" Subject: [PRR] wreck again! Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:35:02 -0500 Sorry everybody - updated to OE 5.0 and did not turn of the MIME! Howdy All: No there is no wreck currently at Felton Delaware. I found some photos of a wreck at Felton in 1925! Maybe somebody out in cyber land has some more details on the wreck? http://www.wsbcos.com/PRRFelton/wreck.htm Cos Home - http://www.wsbcos.com Railroad pages - http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:02:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Question I haven't seen an answer to your question, but I have a few comments. First, it is difficult to see if the door opening is a very fitted one. It seems to be plugged with whatever jagged piece of sheet metal was around at the time. Second, in looking at the latest Penn Valley video of Pennsy in the 30s and 40s, it is clear from the T1 manufacturing films (a real delight, BTW) that the door wasn't there as-built. Can't add much more. Bob Zoeller Upon further looking I believe it is as built and was spring loaded also as there are no latches of any kind. The two top photos on P 221 of Pennsy Power show it very clearly on an engine being built. It blended in so well that once you are aware of it you can distingush it in nearly every photo. BUT until you are it is almost impossible to discern. The only logical reason I can come up with was to change the headlight bulb. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:14:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Question In a message dated 01/31/2000 9:02:24 AM Central Standard Time, NDBPRR writes: << Upon further looking I believe it is as built and was spring loaded also as there are no latches of any kind. The two top photos on P 221 of Pennsy Power show it very clearly on an engine being built. It blended in so well that once you are aware of it you can distingush it in nearly every photo. >> Now I have to restudy that video very closely:-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: Catenary Poles Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:22:25 -0000 Not specific to A&S or Trenton Cutoff but FYI Trolley Wire standards were as follows: Min. height in electrified territory - 18'-0" Max. in MU territory - 22'-0" Max. exclusive of MU operation - 24'-6" Ref. CE78J - Minimum Roadway Clearances, Dwg. 70050-F Sep. 1963. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Catenary Poles Date: Mon, 31 Jan 100 11:28:37 -0500 (EST) Alan Buchan scribit: > > Not specific to A&S or Trenton Cutoff but FYI > Trolley Wire standards were as follows: > > Min. height in electrified territory - 18'-0" > Max. in MU territory - 22'-0" > Max. exclusive of MU operation - 24'-6" > > Ref. CE78J - Minimum Roadway Clearances, Dwg. 70050-F Sep. 1963. Al, does the same dwg :-) mention at which points the diamond-shaped "High Wire / Low Wire" sign is to be implemented? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MSand17545@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:31:58 EST Subject: [PRR] A&S Branch May be saved! Did anyone out there read the article In the Lancaster paper a few days ago that said, that Norfolk and Western may not give over the 23 mile long right away to the townships that the railroad resides in. There thinking of keeping it just in case freight service picks up or they need it for passenger service, since there are few if any grade crossings on that line. I was thrilled to read this, since the townships were planning to tear down the beautiful stone bridges and iron trestles. Does anyone know any more of this situation? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:57:35 EST Subject: [PRR] Timonium Show Hi Guys, Did anyone one venture forth over to Timonium during the weekend? If so, anything new to report? Howard Zane (the host) has on his website, one of the new, brass, Challenger models of the PRR M-1(also one of Challenger's new N's); and, I was wondering if he might have had either on display at the show? Poor weather and health kept me at home. Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Schoch" Subject: Re: [PRR] Super Bowl Trains Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:52:52 -0500 Why stop at Louisville? The South Wind stopped at Nashville on its way to the sunny South. As of the PRR Form 1 dated January 27, 1957, it had a southbound arrival at 6:15 PM and a northbound departure at 9:32. Of course however it was every other day. But with the all-reserved coach seating and a Tavern Lounge Coach, it must have been a great ride. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrews, Ted" To: ; ; Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:48 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Super Bowl Trains > Instead of taking the Monon Thoroughbred form Chicago to Louisville, why not > take the PRR's South Wind? I believe that the South Wind went through > Louisville instead of Cincinnatti. > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana (a Monon town) > > -----Original Message----- > From: GenJim833@aol.com [mailto:GenJim833@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 5:24 PM > To: no-soup-4-you@worldnet.att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Super Bowl Trains > > > Routing : Cincinnati Limited via PRR; New York to Cincinnati, L&N from > Cincinnati to Nashville, or Broadway Limited; New York to Chicago, Monon's > Thoroughbred;Chicago to Louisville, thence any L&N train you could grab to > Nashville from there. It all begins on the Pennsy in any event. Reason I > suggested a Chicago routing as a possibility is that I am sure there are > mileage collectors on the list. > > Jim Mancuso > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LIRRMIKE@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:59:27 EST Subject: [PRR] (no subject) I would like to know if the Pennsy had any transfer type cabins and if they did what did they look like. Thanks Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:11:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Super Bowl Trains Actually, I did not suggest stopping at Louisville on the way to the Superbowl if it had been held in Nashville, just changing to an L&N train there, especially if one were travelling on a day that the South Wind did not operate as this Pennsy train was not a daily run between Chicago and Louisville and Monon's Thoroughbred was. I was merely using Louisville as a connecting point for those travelling on those days that the South Wind did not operate and the Monon train seemed like the perfect way to get from Chicago to Nashville after arriving in Chicago on the Pennsy. I hope this clears things up. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:26:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Super Bowl Trains The reason I suggested Monon's Thoroughbred for the Chicago to Louisville segment was the possiblity that people would be travelling on a day that the South Wind was not scheduled to operate as that train did not run daily, while the Monon Thoroughbred did run everyday, otherwise a passenger would have to find another way from Chicago to Louisville for the L&N connection to Nashville. Another possibility would be to connect from Pennsy's Cincinnati Limited at Cincinnati to one of B&O's Louisville trains and go from there to the L&N at Louisville. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!