Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 09:19:37 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Final Hoss's Dinner List X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 62b62c662367263dbafa52368f573e3b Greetings to the group, Here is the final list of those indicating they would be coming to dinner Saturday night. Looking forward to another fine get together with good conversation between good friends over good food. By the way, say Hi to Andrew and I if you make it to the Juniata Shops in the AM on Saturday. We'll be helping out at the entry area that morning. Drew McGhee Andrew McGhee Michael Wingard David Wingard Bill Coffeman Steve Shomo Michael Coners David Gnuse +3 Bill Bigler Dennis Sautters Carl Haslett +7 Rich Copeland Michael Bezilla John W Rosenbauer Derrick Brashear Mark Brashear Scott Johnson Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 06:53:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Standard Railroad of... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 81656fbf5ae2b4fd45687fa8e83f77fa I just got back from eBay, looking at a 1910 PRR system map. The bottom margin of the map had text "Standard Railroad of America". Hunh! "Standard Railroad of the World", I'd heard of that. Hadn't known there was an earlier, less inclusive claim. And, since inquiring minds want to know, I wonder: Did PRR ever claim to be "Standard Railroad of the Commonwealth"? When did the slogan "Standard Railroad of America" come into use? And when did "...of the World" replace it? Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 11:32:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] careful with your Keystones... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b4aa06f5796675cc58cb26b956c0bd47 somehow several of mine got wet on one edge. The summer 1998 lost the most: the pages practically melted together, presumably because whatever coating is on the paper didn't like it. (sigh) So, don't get your Keystones wet. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:38:57 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] careful with your Keystones... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2d584fea97b44ac00aaff6158debc2db --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > somehow several of mine got wet on one edge. The > summer 1998 lost the > most: the pages practically melted together, > presumably because whatever > coating is on the paper didn't like it. (sigh) So, > don't get your > Keystones wet. > I had a similar misadventure with Model Railroader (also on heavy glossy paper). Welded/glued most of the pages into a solid block as it dried. I suspect it is the glossy coating rather than anything peculiar to the Keystone's paper. On the other hand, RMC, on less glossy paper, survived the drowning with much less damage. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 13:16:05 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] careful with your Keystones... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1092338a980fdcbd8166ea894875f90f --On Fre, 1. Okt 1999 09:38 -0700 "robert netzlof" wrote: > > I had a similar misadventure with Model Railroader > (also on heavy glossy paper). Welded/glued most of the > pages into a solid block as it dried. I suspect it is > the glossy coating rather than anything peculiar to > the Keystone's paper. > Little to do with PRR, but the glossy coating on high-quality magazine paper is Kaolin Clay, is it not? Perhaps it retains its soluability even when processed at the paper mill. And clay does tend to dry hard. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 15:07:35 -0400 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] careful with your Keystones... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 43043c84e982fb2dea4e31837bdec68a I wonder if you could re-wet your Keystone, separate the pages that are stuck together, then fan the pages loosely until they are dry? A hair dryer might be a good tool to use here. I seem to recall having moderate success with this method some time ago, although my pages were not molded into a solid block. The magazine didn't look like new anymore, but I could open all the pages, and many of them were surprisingly OK. I wouldn't try this unless you have *nothing* to lose. Dale Derrick J Brashear wrote: > somehow several of mine got wet on one edge. The summer 1998 lost the > most: the pages practically melted together, presumably because whatever > coating is on the paper didn't like it. (sigh) So, don't get your > Keystones wet. > > -D > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 15:52:31 -0400 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] Athearn Mikado X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2a1cae6810fee2a1636c53673f5f0621 I finally got a chance for a close look at the new Athearn Mikado. I would put it somewhere between a Rivarossi steam engine and the new Bachman Mountain. It has good piping detail near the drivers, but doesn't have separate detail on the boiler. The details on the boiler are molded into the boiler like most plastic steam engines, except it does have seperate handrails. However, they are a bit more crisp then the older Rivarossi engines. This was a bit disappointing when you consider the Bachman Mountain is about the same price, but has seperate sand pipes and other pipes on the boiler. I will end up getting one sooner or later. The Pennsy ones are not in yet, and the hobby shop had no idea when they would be in. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:32:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] careful with your Keystones... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f01bb3a0489e22f0a80ff7ea139a4180 Since clay is what gives paper the gloss it only stands to reason that it becomes glue when wet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:25:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Kris's L1 page updated X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2dbeb25b33091a50f8a57e88517def81 I've just finished putting an update on Kris's Bowser L-1 on the RPM web page located at: http://www.rpmrail.org Check it out, you'll be surprised at how good a Bowser can look. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 14:04:50 -0700 From: Paul Kuzyk Subject: [PRR] subscripe X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 33161ea60718561e854f2f9cc0440d0e subscripe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:32:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] USRA Engines-Athearn & Spectrum X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f96fb8b42023a9bae222c513a66f7273 Folks, Well, I dug out the old wallet at the hobby shop yesterday and picked up a long awaited Athearn mike, and in a moment of weakness also picked up the spectrum light 4-8-2. (One of the advantages of not being tied to a single prototype.....if ya can't resist it you don't have to). As a visual comparison, I think the Athearn takes it as easily a nicer model. Certainly the paint job is better in it's tones and application. The Spectrum has more added-on piping on the boiler, but from the running board down the piping on the Athearn is better and more delicate looking. But in the general crispness of details the Athearn is more appealing. The air compressor, power reverse and truck details are much, much better on the athearn, though the unlettered Spectrum throws in an extra set of tender sideframes. Regarding the tenders themselves, the Bachman is almost toylike from the top veiw. the water hatch looks like something from the 1950's train set mode and the coal load begs to be disguised. But still, the lean looks of that 4-8-2 are mighty appealing and some touching up will make it more than acceptable for my privatre road's dual service pool. The engine overall is nice and these two engines might go a long way towards prompting some younger modelers to consider the steam age yet. Both loco's are well worth a gander. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:03:31 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 26d22b86676d29ba4e9d72cbd0900bb7 Here is a trivia question. Let's see who gets the answer first and how many wrong answers come in. During the late 1950s the Pennsy operated a passenger train to a resort location, only on Friday afternoons and returned on Sunday evening. Can you name the train, and its origin and destination? If you can correctly name the train, can you also let us know what the consist was and when it last operated? My guess would be in 1960 or 1961 but am not sure. Hint: It was advertised only obscurely in the Form 1 Timetables. Bill Volkmer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:34:08 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3f7469c97b0142a20d929c04e513544e At the PRR talk dinner at Hoss's Saturday night (thanks, Drew McGhee, for arranging this) following Railfest, John Rosenbauer, Scott Johnson and I were looking at a 1920s or early 1930s photo of the Curve. The switch leading to Glen White was in the foreground. Across Burgoon Run (or Glen White Run), looking west, there is another switch for another track that leads up the run. Was this really a branch that led to some mines on the hill opposite Glen White? Or was this a stub end track that went essentially nowhere? Dan Cupper, in his Horseshoe Curve book, says "two spurs diverging from the west side of the Curve and following Glen White Run....meandered back to bituminous coal mines." Trimuph I, however, says "we guess this was a PRR spur used to dump cinders and drainage-ditch tailings. In 1910 it was listed as a shop-car track." Does anyone have info on this track? -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:21:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7f9b5375a8f5d865ba938312185a8483 My guess would be to Macinack Michigan up the GR&I but I don't know the name or any details. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:29:07 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 55d2303481efce5b020f3e3700fc7cea Nope it isn't in Michgan. Try the eastern part of the railroad. Another hint. The name of the train was the same name as the resort location, but the train actually ended up several miles short of the resort. Bill P.S. Although I never saw the train in the flesh, I was told it was generally SOLD OUT and the railroad still wanted to discontinue it and rarely advertised its existance. -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: herzog@icanect.net Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train >My guess would be to Macinack Michigan up the GR&I but I don't know the name >or any details. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:43:44 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b5648545522356214d57a95befbaef82 Wrong again. Another hint. The destination was not on the PRR or even a connecting (with the PRR) railroad. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear To: Bill Volkmer Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train >On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Bill Volkmer wrote: > >> Nope it isn't in Michgan. Try the eastern part of the railroad. >> >> Another hint. The name of the train was the same name as the resort >> location, but the train actually ended up several miles short of the resort. > >Something to Ocean City? > >-D > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:17:10 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 098bf75e09d7476c604ce3b85b626fda BINGO. The Bar Harbor is IT. Now. What can you tell us about the train's consist, last run and how it came about to be in the first place? Thanks for the info in advance. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Don R. Millbranth To: Bill Volkmer Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train >Bill: > Are you referring to the "BAR HARBOR" running from Washington D.C to >Bangor ME train, >departing D.C at 2.00 p.m. EDT Friday and returned Sunday at 11.45 a.m., >traveling the "Hell Gate Bridge Route ? > >Sincerely. >Don > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Volkmer >To: talk prr >Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 8:10 AM >Subject: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train > > >>Here is a trivia question. Let's see who gets the answer first and how >many >>wrong answers come in. >> >>During the late 1950s the Pennsy operated a passenger train to a resort >>location, only on Friday afternoons and returned on Sunday evening. Can >you >>name the train, and its origin and destination? >> >>If you can correctly name the train, can you also let us know what the >>consist was and when it last operated? My guess would be in 1960 or 1961 >>but am not sure. >> >>Hint: It was advertised only obscurely in the Form 1 Timetables. >> >>Bill Volkmer >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:52:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Weekend Plans -epilogue X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 63556347b372990d8c8717a8ef9f128e The weekend show at Timonium was very good. Thanks to those from both lists who came by and said hello. Some even bought some merchandise. See you there again in April. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:52:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6e08e1ef4450a6e6c32e1ecddd0fd9b0 In a message dated 10/04/1999 9:47:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mxb13@psu.edu writes: << Dan Cupper, in his Horseshoe Curve book, says "two spurs diverging from the west side of the Curve and following Glen White Run....meandered back to bituminous coal mines." Trimuph I, however, says "we guess this was a PRR spur used to dump cinders and drainage-ditch tailings. In 1910 it was listed as a shop-car track." Does anyone have info on this track? -mike >> Believe Dan he is correct and take everything in Triumph I with many grains of salt. Triumph I is riddled with factual errors and poorly researched. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:07:45 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3ba9f280342c9463eeb493a4b0b428b5 I would particularly like to know how they routed the train around the infamous gap in Boston between South Station and North Station. Also how did the passengers get from Bangor to Bar Harbor? What was the politcal pressure on the PRR to keep the train running (other than continued good patronage)? This would make a GREAT article for a future issue of the Keystone if someone can assemble all of the facts. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Don R. Millbranth To: Bill Volkmer Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR >Bill: > I am looking at the schedule issued April 24, 1960. I do not find a >similar schedule in the April 30, 1961 schedule. > The train to Bangor was the No. 220-184 BAR HARBOR and the return train >was the No. 185-201 BAR HARBOR. > According to the schedule the PRR, NewHaven RR, B&M RR and the MC RR >were involved in this trek. > The consist seems complicated and ever changing on route. Attached is >the information from the schedule. Hope this helps. > Why this train? I'd have to some research on this point. > >Don > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Volkmer >To: talk prr ; Don R. Millbranth >Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 10:20 AM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR > > >>BINGO. The Bar Harbor is IT. >> >>Now. What can you tell us about the train's consist, last run and how it >>came about to be in the first place? >> >>Thanks for the info in advance. >> >>Bill V. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Don R. Millbranth >>To: Bill Volkmer >>Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 11:15 AM >>Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train >> >> >>>Bill: >>> Are you referring to the "BAR HARBOR" running from Washington D.C to >>>Bangor ME train, >>>departing D.C at 2.00 p.m. EDT Friday and returned Sunday at 11.45 a.m., >>>traveling the "Hell Gate Bridge Route ? >>> >>>Sincerely. >>>Don >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Bill Volkmer >>>To: talk prr >>>Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 8:10 AM >>>Subject: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train >>> >>> >>>>Here is a trivia question. Let's see who gets the answer first and how >>>many >>>>wrong answers come in. >>>> >>>>During the late 1950s the Pennsy operated a passenger train to a resort >>>>location, only on Friday afternoons and returned on Sunday evening. Can >>>you >>>>name the train, and its origin and destination? >>>> >>>>If you can correctly name the train, can you also let us know what the >>>>consist was and when it last operated? My guess would be in 1960 or 1961 >>>>but am not sure. >>>> >>>>Hint: It was advertised only obscurely in the Form 1 Timetables. >>>> >>>>Bill Volkmer >>>> >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>>>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 13:28:11 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: [Fwd: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train] X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a5c70cd1efdd3ab58427518cbdccf5e2 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 13:27:30 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" To: Bill Volkmer References: <00ff01bf0e78$8d985ba0$f1b724cf@bill> Sounds something like the Cape Codder that Amtrak used to run until a couple of years ago. I don't know what the origins of the cape codder are so consider this an uneducated guess. Also the cape codder made it onto the cape. Bill Volkmer wrote: > > Wrong again. > > Another hint. The destination was not on the PRR or even a connecting > (with the PRR) railroad. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:08:10 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 506e01df949acb4b0afcbcbf9c048cc6 -----Original Message----- From: Don R. Millbranth To: Bill Volkmer Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR >Bill: > Time prohits further "research" today. However, if you look at the >schedule I sent, it apparently did not go through Boston. > I am looking at a schedule issued June 30, 1952 whereby the train was >called the BAR HARBOR EXPRESS (Trains No. 185 & 184). The PRR part of the >trek ran from D.C to NY (Penna Station). One then departed NY on the >N.Y.N.H.&H. RR through Worchester (MA) on to Lowell (MA), leaving Lowell on >the B&M RR to Portland ME. The Maine Central then completed the trek through >Bangor on to Bar Harbor. > An interesting note is that the #184 train actually made the trip on >Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays with the #185 making the trip on Tuesdays, >Thursdays and Sundays up through September 7th of 1952. Other runs are noted >at later dates in September. > Bill, if you like I'll scan this schedule and send it to you later this >evening...\ >More later if it will help. >Don > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Volkmer >To: talk prr ; Don R. Millbranth >Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 12:18 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR > > >>I would particularly like to know how they routed the train around the >>infamous gap in Boston between South Station and North Station. >> >>Also how did the passengers get from Bangor to Bar Harbor? What was the >>politcal pressure on the PRR to keep the train running (other than >continued >>good patronage)? >> >>This would make a GREAT article for a future issue of the Keystone if >>someone can assemble all of the facts. >> >>Bill V. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Don R. Millbranth >>To: Bill Volkmer >>Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 11:48 AM >>Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR >> >> >>>Bill: >>> I am looking at the schedule issued April 24, 1960. I do not find a >>>similar schedule in the April 30, 1961 schedule. >>> The train to Bangor was the No. 220-184 BAR HARBOR and the return >train >>>was the No. 185-201 BAR HARBOR. >>> According to the schedule the PRR, NewHaven RR, B&M RR and the MC RR >>>were involved in this trek. >>> The consist seems complicated and ever changing on route. Attached is >>>the information from the schedule. Hope this helps. >>> Why this train? I'd have to some research on this point. >>> >>>Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Bill Volkmer >>>To: talk prr ; Don R. Millbranth >>>Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 10:20 AM >>>Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR >>> >>> >>>>BINGO. The Bar Harbor is IT. >>>> >>>>Now. What can you tell us about the train's consist, last run and how it >>>>came about to be in the first place? >>>> >>>>Thanks for the info in advance. >>>> >>>>Bill V. >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Don R. Millbranth >>>>To: Bill Volkmer >>>>Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 11:15 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train >>>> >>>> >>>>>Bill: >>>>> Are you referring to the "BAR HARBOR" running from Washington D.C to >>>>>Bangor ME train, >>>>>departing D.C at 2.00 p.m. EDT Friday and returned Sunday at 11.45 a.m., >>>>>traveling the "Hell Gate Bridge Route ? >>>>> >>>>>Sincerely. >>>>>Don >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: Bill Volkmer >>>>>To: talk prr >>>>>Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 8:10 AM >>>>>Subject: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Here is a trivia question. Let's see who gets the answer first and how >>>>>many >>>>>>wrong answers come in. >>>>>> >>>>>>During the late 1950s the Pennsy operated a passenger train to a resort >>>>>>location, only on Friday afternoons and returned on Sunday evening. >Can >>>>>you >>>>>>name the train, and its origin and destination? >>>>>> >>>>>>If you can correctly name the train, can you also let us know what the >>>>>>consist was and when it last operated? My guess would be in 1960 or >>1961 >>>>>>but am not sure. >>>>>> >>>>>>Hint: It was advertised only obscurely in the Form 1 Timetables. >>>>>> >>>>>>Bill Volkmer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- - >>>>>>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- - >>>>>>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>>>>>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 11:32:43 -0700 From: dick lemin Subject: [PRR] X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 823273860f83e7a0b524d42ff6eef171 Can somebody out there shed some light on this? As a kid growing up in Ada, Ohio during the early 50's, I used to enjoy going down to the tracks and watch the local switcher work at the grain elevator in the summer. During the summers of 55-56 I remember an unusual sight. The switcher was painted medium blue with dulux glod lettering. Was this an experimental paint scheme? The engine came out of Crestline, and I only remember seeing it for those two summers. It was an ALCO RS1,2,3 (I think). Any information would be appreciated. Dick Lemin Napa, Ca. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Blue Road Switcher Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:10:36 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ef5dbdc444b84728154ef77061bedf60 This MAY have been one of the Bangor and Aristook GP-7s that the Pennsy leased during the spring and summer months. They were owned half and half with the Bangor but they spent about 9 months a year on the PRR mostly in the Erie, Cleveland area. They did wander away on occasion. See if you can get a better description, but that is MY guess. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: dick lemin To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 2:38 PM Subject: [PRR] > >Can somebody out there shed some light on this? As a kid growing up in Ada, >Ohio during the early 50's, I used to enjoy going down to the tracks and >watch the local switcher work at the grain elevator in the summer. During >the summers of 55-56 I remember an unusual sight. The switcher was painted >medium blue with dulux glod lettering. Was this an experimental paint >scheme? The engine came out of Crestline, and I only remember seeing it for >those two summers. It was an ALCO RS1,2,3 (I think). Any information would >be appreciated. >Dick Lemin >Napa, Ca. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:02:54 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 118fc435e02e3a308a2da31f2c992011 Aloha, I don't remember the name but it went to Atlantic City. Eric, Left the East Coast in 62 after High School. At 09:03 AM 10/4/1999 -0400, Bill Volkmer wrote: >Here is a trivia question. Let's see who gets the answer first and how many >wrong answers come in. > >During the late 1950s the Pennsy operated a passenger train to a resort >location, only on Friday afternoons and returned on Sunday evening. Can you >name the train, and its origin and destination? > >If you can correctly name the train, can you also let us know what the >consist was and when it last operated? My guess would be in 1960 or 1961 >but am not sure. > >Hint: It was advertised only obscurely in the Form 1 Timetables. > >Bill Volkmer > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Blue Road Switcher Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:37:34 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6290ff275bc0405a6db5f8484ddfd043 The PRR had some Alco RS-2s based out of Fort Wayne that were purchased second hand from the D&H but they were NOT blue. They were possibly not completely repainted be fore being put into service, but they would have been the D&H olive drab paint. I believe on occasion the Pennsy borrowed units from the Wabash that would have been blue but the Wabash never owned any Alco roadswitchers. Ann Arbor, also owned by the Wabash DID have a couple of Alco RS-1s that may have wandered off road, but I would rather doubt it. The AA paint scheme was identical to the Wabash. Wabash was owned by the PRR. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: dick lemin To: Bill Volkmer Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Blue Road Switcher >Hi Bill, >I was only ten years old in 1955, but I was very much in tune with the PRR >that went through town, and I was familiar with the trains on it. This >switcher was definitely blue with dulux gold PRR lettering. I remember it >as being smaller than a GP-7 and not an EMD product. The engine had an >entirely diferent sound than the 567 series, especially at idle. I remember >it as being shaped like the ALCO road switchers. That's about all that I >can remember....Dick > > > > > > > >At 03:10 PM 10/04/99 -0400, you wrote: >>This MAY have been one of the Bangor and Aristook GP-7s that the Pennsy >>leased during the spring and summer months. They were owned half and half >>with the Bangor but they spent about 9 months a year on the PRR mostly in >>the Erie, Cleveland area. They did wander away on occasion. >> >>See if you can get a better description, but that is MY guess. >> >>Bill V. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: dick lemin >>To: prr-talk@dsop.com >>Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 2:38 PM >>Subject: [PRR] >> >> >>> >>>Can somebody out there shed some light on this? As a kid growing up in Ada, >>>Ohio during the early 50's, I used to enjoy going down to the tracks and >>>watch the local switcher work at the grain elevator in the summer. During >>>the summers of 55-56 I remember an unusual sight. The switcher was painted >>>medium blue with dulux glod lettering. Was this an experimental paint >>>scheme? The engine came out of Crestline, and I only remember seeing it for >>>those two summers. It was an ALCO RS1,2,3 (I think). Any information would >>>be appreciated. >>>Dick Lemin >>>Napa, Ca. >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >>> >> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Josh Trower" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 17:03:07 EDT X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 26606515be9fc0d5c815380fe1436bcc Is it possibly trains 519/520, "The Northern Arrow"? Its in the July, 30 1961 Form 1. Runs St. Louis to Mackinaw City. -Josh T. >From: "Bill Volkmer" >Reply-To: "Bill Volkmer" >To: "talk prr" >Subject: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train >Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:03:31 -0400 > >Here is a trivia question. Let's see who gets the answer first and how >many >wrong answers come in. > >During the late 1950s the Pennsy operated a passenger train to a resort >location, only on Friday afternoons and returned on Sunday evening. Can >you >name the train, and its origin and destination? > >If you can correctly name the train, can you also let us know what the >consist was and when it last operated? My guess would be in 1960 or 1961 >but am not sure. > >Hint: It was advertised only obscurely in the Form 1 Timetables. > >Bill Volkmer > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 14:07:11 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c8c744ac10955612867261035a9a53e3 Dick, I think someone else may have replied that you may have seen a leased BAR loco. However, if it was an RS-2 (?) you were probably looking at one of the units that PRR bought from the D&H. I don't know how long it took the Pennsy to get around to painting them, but they did stay in D&H colors (plain blue with yellow or buff-type lettering) for a while after acquisition. Chuck Friedlein dick lemin wrote: > Can somebody out there shed some light on this? As a kid growing up in Ada, > Ohio during the early 50's, I used to enjoy going down to the tracks and > watch the local switcher work at the grain elevator in the summer. During > the summers of 55-56 I remember an unusual sight. The switcher was painted > medium blue with dulux glod lettering. Was this an experimental paint > scheme? The engine came out of Crestline, and I only remember seeing it for > those two summers. It was an ALCO RS1,2,3 (I think). Any information would > be appreciated. > Dick Lemin > Napa, Ca. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:12:32 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: Passenger/Business Cars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b2d51d46d9831da63eb6d4ef16fe75f6 A question for you passenger devotees out there. I got up on the roof of the Clement Car (PRR 7507) at the Galveston Railroad Museum yesterday and found it in poor shape. The roof coating is hard as a rock and is fragmenting, leaving the exposed metal to rust. I am trying to restore stuff to as near prototype as possible. Does anyone know what type of coating PRR used on their roofs? The material on the car is a thin layer of something, perhaps tar or mastic, with a coat of silver over it. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR] Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:19:59 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7adcd77649ec749f4fd7b4857df364e0 The blue D&H scheme did not come into play until the RS-11s were delivered in 1960 or 61. The RS-2s were sold to PRR in the early 1950s. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Friedlein To: dick lemin Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 5:14 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] >Dick, > >I think someone else may have replied that you may have seen a leased BAR >loco. However, if it was an RS-2 (?) you were probably looking at one of the >units that PRR bought from the D&H. I don't know how long it took the Pennsy >to get around to painting them, but they did stay in D&H colors (plain blue >with yellow or buff-type lettering) for a while after acquisition. > >Chuck Friedlein > >dick lemin wrote: > >> Can somebody out there shed some light on this? As a kid growing up in Ada, >> Ohio during the early 50's, I used to enjoy going down to the tracks and >> watch the local switcher work at the grain elevator in the summer. During >> the summers of 55-56 I remember an unusual sight. The switcher was painted >> medium blue with dulux glod lettering. Was this an experimental paint >> scheme? The engine came out of Crestline, and I only remember seeing it for >> those two summers. It was an ALCO RS1,2,3 (I think). Any information would >> be appreciated. >> Dick Lemin >> Napa, Ca. >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Passenger/Business Cars Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:29:14 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 05bda7e7c26ede9b4157f46fbb164fc8 It was a heavy black paint mixed with tar. We put tons of it on the roofs of everything with wheels under it when I was Gang Foreman at Penn Coach Yard in Phila. (1962). I don't recall the manufacturer's name, but that was 37 years ago and HELL I couldn't tell you what brand I used to paint my own house with 3 years ago! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Donald E. Harper, Jr. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 5:23 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR: Passenger/Business Cars >A question for you passenger devotees out there. > >I got up on the roof of the Clement Car (PRR 7507) at the Galveston Railroad >Museum yesterday and found it in poor shape. The roof coating is hard as a rock >and is fragmenting, leaving the exposed metal to rust. > >I am trying to restore stuff to as near prototype as possible. Does anyone know >what type of coating PRR used on their roofs? The material on the car is a thin >layer of something, perhaps tar or mastic, with a coat of silver over it. > >Don Harper >Texas A&M Marine Lab >5007 Avenue U >Galveston, TX 77551-5926 >409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 >harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:47:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bar Harbor Express X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 24cf71e2ad1fef01a969427ee92fe37f Folks, The Bar Harbor made it's last run, as a westbound, on Sep 5, 1960, it's last year of operation. It was always a Pullman-only train, carrying no coachs. The B&M took over at Worchester, MA, not Lowell. Interestingly, the daytime counterpart East Wind was covered in the B&M's Bulletin many years ago, but I don't know if the Keystone ever did any coverage of this service. The train also carried cars to Rockland, Maine and I think that leg of the trip did carry coachs from Portland east. As regards ferry service to Bar Harbor, it quit in 1931 and buses carried passengers over a causeway to the posh resort. I don't actually recall the original question, but the train has to be Bar Harbor Express( I hope). Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:54:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 67653b71bc4f6bfac3fe92e52b9e21e3 In a message dated 99-10-04 13:18:24 EDT, you write: I would particularly like to know how they routed the train around the infamous gap in Boston between South Station and North Station. <> Didn't Lucius Beebe or George Dubin cover this train in one of their books? I'm not close to my library so can't check. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RobMcKII@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:09:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Current Pittsburgh-Altoona Amtrak X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e149e11f333450148072eb7d93e70830 All, Having briefly been by Railfest this weekend, the Noon westbound Amtrak jogged me into thinking about taking Rail to get from Altoona to Pittsburgh and back for a Saturday evening Hockey game. (Barb's family lives in Altoona, and we frequently jaunt to Pittsburgh from there, usually by car) Getting there is fairly convenient, allowing plenty of time to walk around prior to the game. Getting back is another story. First train back is not till 8:43am the next morning. Current scheduling requires finding a hotel for the night. Would much prefer a midnight, 1am or 2am departure back to Altoona. I have my doubts that complaining to Amtrak would make them think about the schedule, nor one voice be enough to have a commuter service in the corridor. Maybe I'd have better luck talking to Reps Murtha and Shuster. But they are big highway men. Rob McKeever Alexandria VA Pittsburgh Penguins Season Ticket Holder ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 23:23:01 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] PRR publication directory X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 62450545eff78a26dd7fd6f59d6502f3 Fellow local SPF Rick Bell, who has provided much of the material for my site, recently dropped off a couple employe timetables for my perusal (1939 Central Division, Western PA Division, Conemaugh Division and 1916 Central Division, Renovo Division). He suggested that a list be made of PRR publications, their dates, and the e-mail addresses of those who own them. That way we can know what info is out there, & who to turn to for answers. Great idea! I will soon have a page up (starting with his stuff). I encourage any list members having such items who wish to participate to e-mail me with a list of what you have, & I'll post it. Let's get our own archive going! -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:29:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question The BAR HARBOR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 59a27053e1351bd0ecfa7f85aaf964b3 In a message dated 10/4/1999 12:18:24 PM Central Daylight Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: << This would make a GREAT article for a future issue of the Keystone if someone can assemble all of the facts. >> Got to my library. As I surmised, pages 946-963 of The Trains We Rode, Volume II, by Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg, covers the Bar Harbor Express in all its glory, i.e., the steam and heavyweight years. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:57:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Will S-E Subject: Re: [PRR] Current Pittsburgh-Altoona Amtrak X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 37c22c921c6414a77eeec741e4055cd0 On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 RobMcKII@aol.com wrote: >SNIP > >I have my doubts that complaining to Amtrak would make them think about the >schedule, nor one voice be enough to have a commuter service in the corridor. > Maybe I'd have better luck talking to Reps Murtha and Shuster. But they are >big highway men. As in Bud Shuster....the fellow who got in so much trouble with the national media for championing that nice little place called STEAMTOWN!!!! Doesn't sound like much of a highway man to me. > > > >Rob McKeever >Alexandria VA >Pittsburgh Penguins Season Ticket Holder > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Trivia Question Can U Name That Train From: "Michael E. Allen" Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 00:56:33 EDT X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e1a2aaa35e2ce2af2dbc043fbaff50a2 Bill, et alia: My entry is the BAR HARBOR Working from the August 1959 OFFICIAL GUIDE I found train 220-184 departing Washington, DC Fridays at 2:00p and arriving in Bangor, Maine at 7:45 the next morning. The return is 185-201 departing Bangor at 5:45 pm Sunday and arriving in DC at 11:45 on Monday. From the equipment notes it seems that the train ran combined with 142 between DC and Philadelphia and with 111 from New York to DC. The PRR Guide entry gives no clue as to the routing between Providence, RI and Portland. However since it is carded at Providence it probably ran via Worcester , Ayre, Lowell, and Lawrence as did the other NH/B&M through trains. On the Maine Central it ran via Lewiston The line-up shown is Coaches: DC > To Phil [EB] NY > DC [WB] Parlor: DC > Phil [EB] NY > DC [WB] Lounge: 8 sec. Buffet NY > Bangor Sleepers: 10-6 DC > Bangor 10-6 Phil > Bangor [2 cars] 10-6 Phil > Portland 14-4 NY > Bangor [2 cars] Diner: Phil > New Haven [EB] NY > Phil AND NY > DC [WB] The Maine Central entry does not show a connection from Bangor to Bar Harbor but the map accompanying shows a bus. A check of the staion index only shows the CN Ferry. I don't have summer Guides here for 60, '61, or '62 so I can't tell you when it came off. MEA ________________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Telephone 609-683-0356 Management Services Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen meallen@juno.com W.R Allen Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:03:31 -0400 "Bill Volkmer" writes: >Here is a trivia question. Let's see who gets the answer first and how many wrong answers come in. > >During the late 1950s the Pennsy operated a passenger train to a resort location, only on Friday afternoons and returned on Sunday evening. Can you name the train, and its origin and destination? > >If you can correctly name the train, can you also let us know what the consist was and when it last operated? My guess would be in 1960 or 1961 but am not sure. > >Hint: It was advertised only obscurely in the Form 1 Timetables. > >Bill Volkmer > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Business Car Roof Paint Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:07:43 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4593a425e828bb6a979ea89325c5d216 I will NEVER forget the day (at Penn Coach Yard, Phila) a guy was climbing up the ladder on the side of one of the coaches with the (5 gal.) bucket of roof paint/tar in his right hand and the brush handle in his left hand and holding onto the ladder at the same time when the ladder slid out from under him. I had another guy sitting in the gauge of the track below putting on a new steam connector. Murphy's Law came into effect. The bucket ended upside down on his head just like the silent movies. Does THAT answer your question? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Don Harper To: Bill Volkmer Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Passenger/Business Cars >>It was a heavy black paint mixed with tar. We put tons of it on the roofs >>of everything with wheels under it when I was Gang Foreman at Penn Coach >>Yard in Phila. (1962). I don't recall the manufacturer's name, but that was >>37 years ago and HELL I couldn't tell you what brand I used to paint my own >>house with 3 years ago! > > >Bill > >How did you apply it - with a brush? And how thick was the coating? And did you paint it silver after the stuff dried a little? > >Thanks > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR publication directory Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:29:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f7ffc465d9dd6a13c6695f4f4f3b2b72 > Fellow local SPF Rick Bell, who has provided much of the material for my > site, recently dropped off a couple employe timetables for my perusal > (1939 Central Division, Western PA Division, Conemaugh Division and > 1916 Central Division, Renovo Division). He suggested that a list be > made of PRR publications, their dates, and the e-mail addresses of > those who own them. That way we can know what info is out there, & who > to turn to for answers. Great idea! I will soon have a page up > (starting with his stuff). I encourage any list members having such > items who wish to participate to e-mail me with a list of what you have, > & I'll post it. Let's get our own archive going! I have something on a slightly similar topic. Please see "Document Names & Numbers" at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Documentation/Forms/ -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:44:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Current Pittsburgh-Altoona Amtrak X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c602ce9d09b08098e443a292378a9957 On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Will S-E wrote: > As in Bud Shuster....the fellow who got in so much trouble with the > national media for championing that nice little place called STEAMTOWN!!!! > Doesn't sound like much of a highway man to me. It could be looked at this way: Steamtown is a tourist attraction bringing in tourist dollars. Schuster could still be a highway man for it can mean a lot of money for the people who build and maintain them. I think the key here is to consider how much money any project will bring in (a little something I learned in one of my community planning classes). Patrick ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR publication directory Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:53:53 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e44afbd2f59b9a9136372095f1ab1277 Jerry & Listers: I took great interest in your mention of a 1916 Renovo Division employees timetable! I'd love to get a copy of it, and also I'd really love to get a copy of a Renovo Division ETT around 1940. I have Williamsport Div. 1940, and Regional timetables from Williamsport to Biffalo for 1950-ish and 1960-ish. I don't necessarily need an original, but having a copy, especially of 1940 vintage Renovo Div. would help me immensly in designing my Renovo Division WWII layout! I'm certainly willing to share copies of mine for the copying cost, although I'd need a bit of lead time. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling Renovo Division WWII -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Shickler To: PRR-talk Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 11:22 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR publication directory >Fellow local SPF Rick Bell, who has provided much of the material for my >site, recently dropped off a couple employe timetables for my perusal >(1939 Central Division, Western PA Division, Conemaugh Division and >1916 Central Division, Renovo Division). He suggested that a list be >made of PRR publications, their dates, and the e-mail addresses of >those who own them. That way we can know what info is out there, & who >to turn to for answers. Great idea! I will soon have a page up >(starting with his stuff). I encourage any list members having such >items who wish to participate to e-mail me with a list of what you have, >& I'll post it. Let's get our own archive going! > >-- >Jerry Shickler >e-mail: geshick@velocity.net >Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at >http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Broadway limited with Red K-4 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:47:21 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9e129074c37b1515cf6f3faaee04eae0 Here is a nice picture of the Broadway with a red K-4, but I warn you it takes about 3 to 4 minutes to download. However, it is worth the wait if you are interested in the subject matter: http://railfan.net/railpix/ABPR/october99/10-04-99/broadway_ltd.jpg Like the Disney song: "Some day my prints will come!" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:10:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited with Red K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e79c7249a79f92047f7a182a7eaaf665 Very nice painting. But with a 1987 copyright date and a lot of artistic license, historically inaccurate. There is no evidence to suggest that the streamline version of the K4s was never painted Tuscan or any shade of red. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:28:44 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited with Red K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f71555ee16c450c2728c910658e7264f Bill said: >Here is a nice picture of the Broadway with a red K-4, but I warn you it >takes about 3 to 4 minutes to download. However, it is worth the wait if >you are interested in the subject matter: >Rich Orr replied >Very nice painting. But with a 1987 copyright date and a lot of artistic >license, historically inaccurate. There is no evidence to suggest that the >streamline version of the K4s was never painted Tuscan or any shade of red. > Well, that's 'cause it ain't RED! to pick the nit...it's BRONZE, and it that color is appropriate for the Loewy designed streamlined K4... Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "monchie of nyc" Subject: RE: [PRR] Current Pittsburgh-Altoona Amtrak Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:22:55 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0886c07593e9de1af3e156b4ebd346df I believe Rep. McDade is the one who got so much bad media publicity for supporting Steamtown. And to say Bud Shuster is a big highway man is an understatement. He supports some highway pork that even ticks off a lot of road geeks. Check out the misc.transport.roads newsgroup or some of the road geek websites. I don't know what his record wrt Amtrak is, though. - monchie of nyc -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Will S-E Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 12:57 AM To: RobMcKII@aol.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Current Pittsburgh-Altoona Amtrak On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 RobMcKII@aol.com wrote: >SNIP > >I have my doubts that complaining to Amtrak would make them think about the >schedule, nor one voice be enough to have a commuter service in the corridor. > Maybe I'd have better luck talking to Reps Murtha and Shuster. But they are >big highway men. As in Bud Shuster....the fellow who got in so much trouble with the national media for championing that nice little place called STEAMTOWN!!!! Doesn't sound like much of a highway man to me. > > > >Rob McKeever >Alexandria VA >Pittsburgh Penguins Season Ticket Holder > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:51:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Drawbridge Rule? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 108ea8f7e08a2af5d090636b3912839e Whilst paging through my own "Trains We Rode--Vol II" looking for Bar Harbor Express stuff, I found something fascinating. It's in the "Broadway Ltd" discussion in the PRR section, page 634. To quote: "Sailing of No. 28 from Chicago was protected by "Drawbridge Rule" which provided for a flexible schedule of departure if drawbridges across the Chicago River delayed access to the West Side of town." This doesn't sound very PRR-like to me. I always thought this problem was treated as an "acceptable delay", and trains delayed at any of the three Chicagoland drawbridges were just expected to make up as much time as possible, and would be excused the balance of the delay. Or was this just some kind of special instruction that permitted No.28 to remain at the bumping block in Union Station until the South Branch Bridge was known to be closed? Lines Westers? Anyone?? Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 19:59:41 -0400 From: zak Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited with Red K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 213abbad4cb2a68b3c8b147b7d50ba3a Hi, all. I must say that that is a wonderful picture, historically accurate or not. Now let me show my ignorance with a couple of questions. First, did the Broadway Limited also use the 1920-type heavyweight cars, and if so, up until what year? Second, hmmm... I'm retired from the Army, and looking at some pix of the Army's RR equipment, I notice that they still do the same when I was in...even if it isn't dirty, wash it! Their GP-10s and other cars are spotless. I was wondering if the PRR with the Broadway Limited also kept their locomotives and cars in such condition. I would think it (PRR) would, as the Limited was something of 'high visibility' to the public, but I don't know for sure. Any comments would be appreciated. Zak PS: I found all of the messages concerning the Bar Harbor train great, especially as I live here in Bar Harbor! There is a book here in the local library, which I can take out again, if anyone cares. It deals with the Maine Central, and how that line brought the tourists from Bangor to Bar Harbor. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:10:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited with Red K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 33d1350bf5dc62976628423edde0eb98 In a message dated 10/5/99 5:33:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Well, that's 'cause it ain't RED! to pick the nit...it's BRONZE, and it that color is appropriate for the Loewy designed streamlined K4... Happy rails Bruce >> OH NO - NOT THIS ARGUMENT - AGAIN ! DICK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:08:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited with Red K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b2819759a0cbdbf72eba24b0da556e2d Have enjoyed the "talk" about the Bronze color. I suggest it's artistic license. From a photographer point of view, almost anything can be bronze in certain strong slanting rays of the sun late in the day. And, as the westbound races toward the sun......... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:05:04 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] more P-5a trivia X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 863d3494b1133e785bff380fe09ea175 Hi All, In looking up some additional questions from folks on the P-5a I made the following observation...as built, the location of the "F" stencil (ie the "front" end of the loco) is opposite on the P-5a modified and boxcabs!!! On the boxcab, the "F" is on the boiler end (easily seen as the end with the fuel/water tanks hanging down under the body) On the modified, the "F" is on the opposite end. I wonder if this was done to keep the boiler smoke out of the eyes of the engineer as making the boiler end the "F" end would put the stack in front of the cab? (I realize that these units were bidirectional). BTW., after the boilers were removed from the boxcabs, the assignment of the "F" end seems to become random! Finally, in the late 1930's ('39) there apparently existed another paint scheme for modifieds that included 5 lower body stripes, a single upper "whisker" like stripe, and futura lettering and numbering. I would appreciate hearing any information regarding this scheme, as well as unit numbers, locations and dates so that I might add it to my P-5 paint scheme listing! I have been told there are photos of locos #4752 and #4789 in the Sept. 1976 Keystone on page 10, however I don't have access to these photos. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 12:45:56 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: [PRR] X29 battery car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5c63f4bf482e26a9f148158ad6f07c5e Greetings, While looking through the PRRT&HS Freight Car Compendium for something else, I came across a stencilling diagram on page 31 for an X29 in company service as a battery car, rather than MoW service. I've never seen a photo of these cars (Compendium says there were two; #498803 & 498805), but a friend has a B/W photo and says it could be gray or white; however, it's certainly not freight car color. Does anyone have any information on these cars relative to color or other features? Would appreciate anything anyone has to offer. TIA, Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:36:48 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR publication directory X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e514e1f47ef425e7224f3eb50d679068 Jerry Shickler wrote: > > ... He suggested that a list be made of PRR publications, their > dates, and the e-mail addresses of those who own them. That way we > can know what info is out there, & who to turn to for answers... I got the beginnings of the page up at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/docindex.htm Any list members having PRR documentation who wish to participate, please e-mail me with a list of what you have, I'll post it as soon as I can. (Please include full titles & dates, & a brief description of what it contains.) Thanks! -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 01:26:02 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: [PRR] P5 marker lights X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0b100272f63f79854935a6c5f1b7dc8f Does anyone know the lens colors for these, and which way any different colors faced? 1. Original boxcabs--upper markers lights, before they were removed 2. Modified body--the lenses at the number boards on the nose 3. Boxcab pilot bar markers (A photo in Pennsy Electric Years shows all lenses to be red--were there any differences from this?) TIA, Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] EQ=MOW: X29 battery car Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:35:50 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f0f9bb1f822066132b0b311f4a19583a -----Original Message----- From: errors-267882-326-abbuchan=familyconnect.net@onelist.com [mailto:errors-267882-326-abbuchan=familyconnect.net@onelist.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Friedlein Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 3:46 PM To: (PRR) Subject: [PRR-FAX] EQ=MOW: X29 battery car There is a picture of 498805 on page 64 of Wayner Publications "The Cars of The Pennsylvania Railroad" an undated publication. I would say it came out 15-20 years ago?? I have heard the car was painted white, however, I never saw it. It is a class X-29 equipped for passenger operations - steam line, marker brackets, etc. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 battery car Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:59:52 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: aaa3179f427467e4171672318a47151c We had dozens of old X-29s in company service painted gray and stencilled in black lettering. (These all had steam connectors and were used in passenger service) There was a battery overhaul shop in Altoona near the Second Street gate as I remember it. The batteries were distributed to the various coach yards after overhaul via the company material X-29s. I am not sure what made the battery cars special, but I would imagine they had some sort of special lining that protected the car sides from battery acid splash during transit. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Friedlein To: (PRR) Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 3:58 PM Subject: [PRR] X29 battery car >Greetings, > >While looking through the PRRT&HS Freight Car Compendium for >something else, I came across a stencilling diagram on page >31 for an X29 in company service as a battery car, rather >than MoW service. I've never seen a photo of these cars >(Compendium says there were two; #498803 & 498805), but a >friend has a B/W photo and says it could be gray or white; >however, it's certainly not freight car color. > >Does anyone have any information on these cars relative to >color or other features? > >Would appreciate anything anyone has to offer. > >TIA, >Chuck Friedlein > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 10:06:56 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] PRR Steam in Chicago X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 41b7248ec40045a5e1f117b71737195e Fellow list denizens: A colleague of mine is preparing an article on the PRR's reponses to smoke abatement regulation in Chicago. He needs a photograph or two showing "smokey" locomotives. My thought would be to look for images of a terminal area, with lots of shifters idling away, or a similar view of an engine servicing facility vic. Chicago during the twenties - forties. Any advicing toward helping locate such images (focused on Chicago, mind) would be appreciated, email vck@andrew.cmu.edu Thanks, Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] P5 marker lights Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:14:37 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 021483870a5db0c14c9f5371d40281f1 I can give you the definitive answer to that question because I own two of them off the 4704. I formerly owned all four but sold two of them many years ago. They had two red and two yellow lenses. The red ones I believe were only used when the locos were in helper service. Even when we ran them light in "six-packs" for power balancing purposes, we never bothered to rotate the hoods. And for an OBTW, the lenses were used in the roundhouse office for ashtrays so I believe somewhere in my collection I have a yellow PRR ashtray. How's THAT for a piece of little known trivia? -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Friedlein To: (PRR) Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 6:20 AM Subject: [PRR] P5 marker lights >Does anyone know the lens colors for these, and which way >any different colors faced? > >1. Original boxcabs--upper markers lights, before they were >removed >2. Modified body--the lenses at the number boards on the >nose >3. Boxcab pilot bar markers (A photo in Pennsy Electric >Years shows all lenses to be red--were there any differences >from this?) > >TIA, >Chuck Friedlein > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Heavyweights on the Broadway Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:15:50 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 142065e1efdabfef91a042ed8f883f0e Somebody asked yesterday when the heavyweights came off the Broadway. My sources tell me it was 1938. Bill V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Steam in Chicago Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:25:29 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f0083d0ae9013d1fa03ffbd0510e09de Wow. When I worked in Chicago we didn't have any smoking steam locomotives but we had a BUNCH of Fairbanks Morse H-10-44 shifters. There were times when you couldn't even SEE the 55th Street Yard, where they worked most of the time. When they flat-switched cars, they could put any B-6 to shame. We also had one Lima center-cab and it smoked so much that the crews would place a cardboard barrell around the stack to get the smoke up and out of the "canyons" created by the tall boxcars. We used it at the 59th Street yard exclusively. Whenever it was in the shop, we would substitute an FM H-20-44 and they were "smokers" as well. Ahhhh the good old days. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu To: PRR-talk Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:10 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Steam in Chicago >Fellow list denizens: > >A colleague of mine is preparing an article on the PRR's reponses to smoke >abatement regulation in Chicago. He needs a photograph or two showing >"smokey" locomotives. My thought would be to look for images of a terminal >area, with lots of shifters idling away, or a similar view of an engine >servicing facility vic. Chicago during the twenties - forties. > >Any advicing toward helping locate such images (focused on Chicago, mind) >would be appreciated, > >email vck@andrew.cmu.edu > >Thanks, >Vagel Keller >Pittsburgh > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:40:43 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 battery car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3613e6362f933657a0ad65f0525cac94 Hi Chuck, You wrote: > While looking through the PRRT&HS Freight Car Compendium for > something else, I came across a stencilling diagram on page > 31 for an X29 in company service as a battery car, rather > than MoW service. I've never seen a photo of these cars > (Compendium says there were two; #498803 & 498805), but a > friend has a B/W photo and says it could be gray or white; > however, it's certainly not freight car color. > > Does anyone have any information on these cars relative to > color or other features? The book "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" by Wayner has a photo of #498805 on pg 64. Since these cars were in company service and could be considered MofW cars, they may have been painted yellow or grey. Either would appear to be a light color in a B&W photo. I believe Al Buchan had a photo he showed of one of these cars in the recent "Yellow and Grey" presentation he gave at Altoona. I believe Al's photo showed the car has roof hatches to make it easier to load/unload the batteries. This last part is from memory now, so I would not bet my life on it. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:05:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 battery car From: "Jerry Britton" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2c39df283f587be3beb6329ee1cd541d >From: "Claus Schlund" >To: Chuck Friedlein >Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 battery car >Date: Thu, Oct 7, 1999, 10:40 AM > >> While looking through the PRRT&HS Freight Car Compendium for >> something else, I came across a stencilling diagram on page >> 31 for an X29 in company service as a battery car, rather >> than MoW service. I've never seen a photo of these cars >> (Compendium says there were two; #498803 & 498805), but a >> friend has a B/W photo and says it could be gray or white; >> however, it's certainly not freight car color. >> >> Does anyone have any information on these cars relative to >> color or other features? > > The book "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" by Wayner has a photo > of #498805 on pg 64. Since these cars were in company service and could > be considered MofW cars, they may have been painted yellow or grey. > Either would appear to be a light color in a B&W photo. > I believe Al Buchan had a photo he showed of one of these cars in > the recent "Yellow and Grey" presentation he gave at Altoona. I believe > Al's photo showed the car has roof hatches to make it easier > to load/unload the batteries. This last part is from memory > now, so I would not bet my life on it. It took a few posts, but my memory has been jogged... I think these cars were painted silver. Anyone else have this recollection now that I've stated it? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Steam in Chicago Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:27:34 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 400b465072d092e4a5d4a4e0944576cd While not the image that you are looking for Vagel, I was just pondering this same subject after seeing the photo in Staufer's Pennsy Power III showing the outdoor smokejacks used to direct steam locomotive smoke to another area. They resemble oversize water plugs and swing over the locomotive's stack. This is the only photo that I recall seeing showing this device. Anyone have any more info on these? Anyone modeled them yet? This may be another project for Rail Classics, eh Eddy? Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu To: PRR-talk Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:13 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Steam in Chicago >Fellow list denizens: > >A colleague of mine is preparing an article on the PRR's reponses to smoke >abatement regulation in Chicago. He needs a photograph or two showing >"smokey" locomotives. My thought would be to look for images of a terminal >area, with lots of shifters idling away, or a similar view of an engine >servicing facility vic. Chicago during the twenties - forties. > >Any advicing toward helping locate such images (focused on Chicago, mind) >would be appreciated, > >email vck@andrew.cmu.edu > >Thanks, >Vagel Keller >Pittsburgh > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] PRR Vol 1 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:43:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0e87453c5df8c02c11840403d5907ee4 Anyone read the review of this book in the latest (Nov 1999) _Trains_ ? Anyone notice the last couple of lines of the review? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Drawbridge Rule? Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:09:12 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 30223efecbd89f78819b9dcd89de5f13 Rich: Delays from drawbridge action may not have been a big concern to the PRR since the NYC, in most cases would have been effected by the same delays. The PRR had 3 drawbridges in the Chicago area on the Fort Wayne Line: 21st Street-Chicago River(Chicago), Calument River (Illinois/Indiana state line), and Indiana Harbor Canal (Whiting, Indiana). The NYC had two drawbridges on their main line, Calument River and Indiana Harbor Canal. Both the PRR and NYC drawbridges at Calumet River were basically side by side and both would have been up or down at any given time. The Indiana Habor Canal drawbridges for the PRR and NYC were not immediately adjacent to eact other but were within a rock's through away; there is a good chance that these bridges would have been effected "almost" simultaneously by the same boat. It was the 21st Street Bridge that was the only additional drawbridge that the PRR had to encounter. In summary, both the PRR's and NYC's passenger trains had similar chances in being delayed by the same navigatable traffic. I am not a knowledgeble on laws on navigatable waterways, but I am wondering if a railroad like the PRR or NYC could secure advance right of way to use the drawbridges for certian pre-determined blocks of time of a given day? Or was drawbridge use always first come - first serve? Just wondering.... Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: PRRMAN@aol.com [mailto:PRRMAN@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 5:51 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Drawbridge Rule? Whilst paging through my own "Trains We Rode--Vol II" looking for Bar Harbor Express stuff, I found something fascinating. It's in the "Broadway Ltd" discussion in the PRR section, page 634. To quote: "Sailing of No. 28 from Chicago was protected by "Drawbridge Rule" which provided for a flexible schedule of departure if drawbridges across the Chicago River delayed access to the West Side of town." This doesn't sound very PRR-like to me. I always thought this problem was treated as an "acceptable delay", and trains delayed at any of the three Chicagoland drawbridges were just expected to make up as much time as possible, and would be excused the balance of the delay. Or was this just some kind of special instruction that permitted No.28 to remain at the bumping block in Union Station until the South Branch Bridge was known to be closed? Lines Westers? Anyone?? Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Drawbridge Rule? Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:33:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7c74849060ef84a9c02427b7f93eef00 Andrews, Ted scribit: > I am not a knowledgeble on laws on navigatable waterways, but I am wondering > if a railroad like the PRR or NYC could secure advance right of way to use > the drawbridges for certian pre-determined blocks of time of a given day? Or > was drawbridge use always first come - first serve? A lawyer friend of mine -- I'm surrounded by lawyers in my family and among friends, whether this be for better or worse -- once explained to me that this is an example of the glory of the Common Law. Essentially the same rules apply when RRs cross one another. Here is my understanding from several questions to lawyers and conversations with them, on this topic. As a generalization, the Common Law principle is that "first on the premises" gets priority. If the river was there first, and boat traffic existed on it, (and this is nearly universally true for RR river crossings), river traffic has priority by right of having been first. The RR (or road, or canal) must build the bridge, maintain it, and must yield. However, should the bridge be built over a non-navigable stream with no traffic, and then that stream be chosen by someone for dredging and conversion into a shipping channel, the cost, maintenance, etc., fall to the canal, and water traffic would have to yield to rail/road traffic. The interesting situations develop when, e.g., the river had traffic before the RR, the RR built a solid bridge that allowed the existing traffic to pass freely, then someone wants to run some other kind of ships that never existed on that river, and demands a drawbridge etc. If that new traffic requires modifications to the river, that's more easily decided, but if it does not ... Now, Common Law is unwritten. It may be superseded by written law. Further, special arrangements may be made for certain locations. Etc. Etc. Etc. What I provide above is a rule of thumb, nothing more. In other words, Your Mileage May Vary. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:51:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Will S-E Subject: RE: [PRR] Drawbridge Rule? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e078d4e07c72df637c2825d15bc76fd9 I have seen a CN local rulebook for the Harbor Draw across the Niagara River here in Buffalo and it basically says that the opening of the draw for boats took 1st priority over the movement of trains. As soon as I find the source document I will post it up. On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Andrews, Ted wrote: >Rich: > >Delays from drawbridge action may not have been a big concern to the PRR >since the NYC, in most cases would have been effected by the same delays. >The PRR had 3 drawbridges in the Chicago area on the Fort Wayne Line: 21st >Street-Chicago River(Chicago), Calument River (Illinois/Indiana state line), >and Indiana Harbor Canal (Whiting, Indiana). The NYC had two drawbridges on >their main line, Calument River and Indiana Harbor Canal. Both the PRR and >NYC drawbridges at Calumet River were basically side by side and both would >have been up or down at any given time. The Indiana Habor Canal drawbridges >for the PRR and NYC were not immediately adjacent to eact other but were >within a rock's through away; there is a good chance that these bridges >would have been effected "almost" simultaneously by the same boat. It was >the 21st Street Bridge that was the only additional drawbridge that the PRR >had to encounter. In summary, both the PRR's and NYC's passenger trains had >similar chances in being delayed by the same navigatable traffic. > >I am not a knowledgeble on laws on navigatable waterways, but I am wondering >if a railroad like the PRR or NYC could secure advance right of way to use >the drawbridges for certian pre-determined blocks of time of a given day? Or >was drawbridge use always first come - first serve? > >Just wondering.... > > >Ted Andrews > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRRMAN@aol.com [mailto:PRRMAN@aol.com] >Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 5:51 PM >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Drawbridge Rule? > > >Whilst paging through my own "Trains We Rode--Vol II" looking >for Bar Harbor Express stuff, I found something fascinating. It's in >the "Broadway Ltd" discussion in the PRR section, page 634. > >To quote: "Sailing of No. 28 from Chicago was protected by >"Drawbridge Rule" which provided for a flexible schedule of departure >if drawbridges across the Chicago River delayed access to the >West Side of town." > >This doesn't sound very PRR-like to me. I always thought this >problem was treated as an "acceptable delay", and trains delayed >at any of the three Chicagoland drawbridges were just expected to >make up as much time as possible, and would be excused the >balance of the delay. > >Or was this just some kind of special instruction that permitted >No.28 to remain at the bumping block in Union Station until the >South Branch Bridge was known to be closed? Lines Westers? >Anyone?? > >Rich Copeland > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] P5 marker light color orientation Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:51:58 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0488e6df7137500a5c42a98cabf0bdca No, as I remember them, the like colors were 180 from each other. You rotated the hood by lifting a spring loaded clamp and rotated the hood 90 degrees to change the color orientation. Some of the locos had blank chunks of steel in place of the glass markers so they only had two lenses. There was little or NO consistency about the PRR. You should know THAT! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Friedlein To: Bill Volkmer Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] P5 marker lights >Hi Bill, > >Thanks for your reply. The OBTW comment is a nice bit of trivia--sort of like >car racers using old pistons for ashtrays after they rebuild an engine. > >Do I take it that the two colors of lenses were at 90 degrees from each other >(same color), and each color pair was 180 degrees from the other? To put it in >terms of a 360 degree circle: the two red lenses might be at 0 & 90 degrees and >the yellow lenses at 180 & 270 degrees. Then the hoods rotated so that the red >lenses faced forward/rearward and also outward when in helper service (as >below)? And would the same be true for both the upper markers when present on >the original boxcabs, as well as the pilot beam markers? > > R R > R Y -------------------------------------- Y R > Y | | Y > | | > Y | | Y > R Y-------------------------------------- Y R > R R > >Also, you didn't say anything about the lenses on the number boards of the >modifieds. Do you know anything about their colors and positions? > >This is getting interesting. Maybe one of these days I'll be able to put the >correct color marker jewels in my old ALCO Models P5a locos and paint them >correctly. A friend of mine gave me a few sheets of the single loop stripe >stuff. They've been packed away for years, but for the life of me now I can't >remember if they were in gold or buff---hmmmmm. > >TIA, >Chuck > >Bill Volkmer wrote: > >> I can give you the definitive answer to that question because I own two of >> them off the 4704. I formerly owned all four but sold two of them many >> years ago. They had two red and two yellow lenses. The red ones I believe >> were only used when the locos were in helper service. Even when we ran >> them light in "six-packs" for power balancing purposes, we never bothered to >> rotate the hoods. >> >> And for an OBTW, the lenses were used in the roundhouse office for ashtrays >> so I believe somewhere in my collection I have a yellow PRR ashtray. >> >> How's THAT for a piece of little known trivia? >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chuck Friedlein >> To: (PRR) >> Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 6:20 AM >> Subject: [PRR] P5 marker lights >> >> >Does anyone know the lens colors for these, and which way >> >any different colors faced? >> > >> >1. Original boxcabs--upper markers lights, before they were >> >removed >> >2. Modified body--the lenses at the number boards on the >> >nose >> >3. Boxcab pilot bar markers (A photo in Pennsy Electric >> >Years shows all lenses to be red--were there any differences >> >from this?) >> > >> >TIA, >> >Chuck Friedlein >> > >> > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 battery car colors Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:31:18 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8046ed328ae6683a9e96068e61bacece In the late 1950s and early 1960s I remember them being painted gray and as Alan Buchan says they had marker light brackets on the top as they usually went on the tail end of passenger trains. I believe one of the recent issues of the Keystone showed the ubiquitous 44 tonner sitting at Altoona passenger station with a couple waiting for the afternoon passenger train 25 or 33 to come along to tack them onto the rear. The company fuel oil and lube oil tank cars and the wheel cars were all painted the same drab gray. If the ones equipped for batteries were painted differently, I was not aware of it. I don't remember the marker lights on the P-5 modifieds. Check the various books on the subject. Bill. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Friedlein To: Bill Volkmer Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 battery car >Hi Bill: > >This is really getting good, I can't believe how much I'm learning. I forgot to >look in my copy of Wayner's book on PRR cars, as somewone else suggested, and >found a photo there--looks like a company photo. > >The question is; do you remember what color the car body was painted? Was it >white, aluminum/silver, or MoW yellow? > >Chuck > >Bill Volkmer wrote: > >> We had dozens of old X-29s in company service painted gray and stencilled in >> black lettering. (These all had steam connectors and were used in passenger >> service) There was a battery overhaul shop in Altoona near the Second >> Street gate as I remember it. The batteries were distributed to the various >> coach yards after overhaul via the company material X-29s. I am not sure >> what made the battery cars special, but I would imagine they had some sort >> of special lining that protected the car sides from battery acid splash >> during transit. >> >> Bill V. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chuck Friedlein >> To: (PRR) >> Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 3:58 PM >> Subject: [PRR] X29 battery car >> >> >Greetings, >> > >> >While looking through the PRRT&HS Freight Car Compendium for >> >something else, I came across a stencilling diagram on page >> >31 for an X29 in company service as a battery car, rather >> >than MoW service. I've never seen a photo of these cars >> >(Compendium says there were two; #498803 & 498805), but a >> >friend has a B/W photo and says it could be gray or white; >> >however, it's certainly not freight car color. >> > >> >Does anyone have any information on these cars relative to >> >color or other features? >> > >> >Would appreciate anything anyone has to offer. >> > >> >TIA, >> >Chuck Friedlein >> > >> > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: P5 Marker Lights Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:03:47 -0400 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bd41a1da89af50c21196cc535f316961 Now that I have had time to rethink this, I think MOST of the P-5s had one red, one yellow and two blanks. I think possibly the ones that had four lenses was done so that if a swinging errant jumper cable smashed a lens, they could simply flip the hood 180 degrees and have a fresh (i.e. unbroken) lens. Like I said, there were some of each. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Friedlein To: Volkmer Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 3:12 PM Subject: P5 Marker Lights >Hi Bill, > >Again, thanks for this information. True, I know there was >a lot of inconsistencies in the way things were done by the >Pennsy; both in stated practices, and in what was actually >done. However, sometimes just when you think something was >really rigidly enforced, you find out that wasn't always the >case, and vice versa. > >Now to continue searching for the elusive marker colors on >the modifieds. > >Chuck > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:01:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Heavyweights on the Broadway X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fd2673fd8745ba7942b1db5e61ad87e0 In a message dated 10/7/1999 9:25:41 AM Central Daylight Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: << Somebody asked yesterday when the heavyweights came off the Broadway. My sources tell me it was 1938. >> That is when the new Broadway in Fleet of Modernism colors was initiated, so it makes sense. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:39:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited with Red K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0188b82aaacb75a39c3055ccb6753631 In a message dated 10/5/1999 10:16:21 PM Central Daylight Time, DWSNRHS@aol.com writes: << Have enjoyed the "ta