From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: Etched signs Dick, I suppose you mean the ones that were made by Custom Railway Supply? I have not seen these for a while. I quit buying the Walthers Catalogs so I do not know if or when they stopped carrying these any more. Last time I seen a set of these was at a train show. Didn't buy them because there was no station listed on there that I could use. There is an old hobby shop that used to carry them, I will check to see if they are still there. I will let you know later. I assume you mean HO scale? Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Mr. Keely's Take Date: Wed, 1 Sep 99 06:31:40 -0400 From: Jerry As promised, what follows is Mr. Keely's interpretation of what the society did or did not endorse, in regards to Mr. Strassner's operations. Walt asked me, to insure good communications, to provide him with a list of questions. His response did not include the original questions, so I am "forwarding" his reply (below) and I have inserted the original questions in "reply" format. ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 08/31 8:57 PM Received: 08/31 9:06 PM From: Walt Keely, xxxxxx@xxx.com To: jerry@dsop.com Jerry, As agreed, I will try to answer to the best of my understanding. Everyone needs to step back to allow any corrective actions to take place. The line in the sand approach will not work for anyone in resolving these issues. Please advise your readership that these are only my observations, and Dick Adams is the ONLY official voice of the PRRT&HS BOD . >Walt: > >Per your request on the telephone, the following are questions phrased to >answer the questions posed by the subscribers of the "PRR-Talk" list: > >1. Last week it was learned that Bill Strassner volunteered and was >accepted to moderate the "Q&A" page on the PRRT&HS web site. The site was >stagnant and Mr. Strassner volunteered to fill a void. Is that indeed >correct? Question #1. Bill Strassner and his group of moderators, were accepted as the foundation for expanding the PRRT&HS web site Q&A efforts. With added moderators for specific areas of expertise that they do not currently have, the potential for better service to the membership should be realized. > >2. Bill Strassner started "PRR-FAX", an Internet mailing list that, by >structure, is akin to a "bulletin board" that individual subscribers may >post messages to. It is identical in functionality to the "PRR-Talk" list >that has existed for over three years. This list is NOT conducted via the >PRRT&HS web site. However, this morning Mr. Strassner announced that the >PRRT&HS had endorsed his list as the "official" list of the PRRT&HS. Is >that correct? Question #2. The need to convert efforts from one list to another is, to my understanding, best served by keeping both lists running in parallel, with the total conversion after all concerns and problems have been addressed. To that end, the answer is yes. >3. Mr. Strassner stated that the PRRT&HS was funding his efforts. >However, the OneList server that serves his list does not charge for >serving said lists. You stated that the society would only pay for costs >when an invoice for services is received. Is that a correct statement? Question #3. No person or persons receive money from the Society without approval of the BOD, and receipts to the treasurer. That has been the policy of the Society since its formation and has not changed. Further, the Society should reimburse members for out of pocket expenses when performing services or purchasing items for the Society after approval by the BOD. >4. If Mr. Strassner's "PRR-FAX" list is the "official" list of the >PRRT&HS, would it not be appropriate that ALL members of the PRRT&HS be >allowed to subscribe? (This has not been the case.) Question #4. Never was this in question. ANY and ALL members have access to any Society projects or in this case to our website Q&A. We also believe that non members should have some form of access in the hope that the website resource would provide us with potential new members. These issues are some of the reasons for the Question #2 response. It needs further review. >5. If Mr. Strassner's "PRR-FAX" list is the "official" list of the >PRRT&HS, should non-members be allowed to subscribe if the membership is >paying for it? (There are many non-members on the list at present.) Question #5. See answer to question #4. Nothing is cast in stone and is the reason for my opening statement , that 'drawing lines in the sand' serves no purpose but to delay any changes in the Society that are needed . >These are the questions that have been asked of myself, Bill Morlitz, and >others. Your "best knowledge" answers to these questions will be >sincerely appreciated. > >If the society did indeed grant said endorsements to Mr. Strassner, but >the outcome has been different than that expected by the society, that >would be helpful to know as well. As we discussed at Lewistown on Sunday, I want you and your subscribers to have better and more timely information. Please keep in mind that my observations and responses are solely that, mine. They are not a response from the BOD and therefore NOT an official communication. If my responses are not clear and you feel that a change would be desirable, please email me before posting. Walt Keely ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- I remind all, that the purpose of my posts over the past three days has been to make known the truth, as all interested parties know it. That has now been accomplished, having posted my view, Mr. Strassner's view, and now Mr. Keely's view. I am NOT calling for a list war here. I feel that I have accomplished my purpose and as far my involvement is concerned, it is done. I, like many of you, disagree with what the society has done...mainly because there was no solicitation of input from the Internet body of the society. However, rather than voice your comments on the lists, please send snail-mail, if you deem necessary, to the society itself. Thank you for your support! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] Re: [pcl] PENNSY BAGGAGE CARS Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 07:38:06 -0400 Barry wrote: >FOLKS, >I just noticed in October MR that Bethlehem Car Works is advertising the two >promised PRR Bagg's : the B70A 'theatrical scenery express car" and the B74B >"horse express" car.. As they're priced at $59.95 list they apparently have >the brass sides that have been very well done on earlier offerings. As they >are essentially 70' cars, i don't know if they come with the milled Rivorossi >car or not, or if BCW parts are used for the floor , ends and roof. Certainly >worth a look. >Barry Peltier Barry and all, A small supply of these cars were available at the PRRT&HS convention. I purchased one of each, but have not looked closely at my kits yet so I can't really review them for you. I can tell you that they are very nice looking models based on the finished sample Theatrical Scenery car that was on display. They are typical of recent BCW cars in that they are brass sides with plastic roof and floor. Not sure about the end castings, again because I haven't unpacked mine yet. I do know that one of the cars (again not sure which) is available with either "original" or "modern" door windows. The other car is did not have this option. Very nice Middle Division decals are included. I'll look closer and review them again in more detail, but for now I would recommend them to all you PRR modelers. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:39:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Dupes & More Serious Matters From: "Jerry Britton" Please refrain from reporting dupes any more. I know they are still happening and it is quite apparent that my installation, though made up of first class hardware and software, has outgrown its less than first class 56K connection. I have Requests For Quotations out to several ISP's regarding greater bandwidth, including xDSL, Cable, and ISDN (fractional T-1 is cost prohibitive). However, I must advise you, there are two possible outcomes here: 1. Greater bandwidth which will eliminate the duping problem, but at a changeover cost (likely $1K) and greater monthly cost which I alone bear. (There are a few clients paying for hosting but it doesn't come close to offsetting all costs.) 2. Near total shutdown of DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM services. This will include "Keystone Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk", and "Reading-Talk"...plus a few other smaller lists. If the increase in bandwidth price comes back at a "reasonable" price, there is one major PRR site seeking to relocate to my server and they are willing to help financially. However, the price difference and the amount of funding are both yet to be determined. Folks, its a simple matter of cost vs. benefit. I could easily put the same $2K I am currently spending on this each year into my model railroad. I've been asked about placing my services elsewhere: I cannot offer the searchable list archive or the searchable database of diesels, electrics, or cabin car rosters any other way. Plus, there is a searchable database of passenger cars and steam locos in the works. I think these are all unique and very beneficial services offered by my site (IMHO). When the duping problem started, I suggested three workarounds for those affected: 1. Use your DELETE key. 2. Change to the Digest format. 3. Unsubscribe. It has now gotten to the point that I am being hit with one dupe report per dupe occurrance. Numerous individuals are doing this. One subscriber even sends me a vulgar message every time he receives a dupe. I can certainly understand everyone's frustrations, but do you think these things motivate me to resolve the problem? My apologies to the few who have, over the years, offered motivational and/or financial support. They are, by far, in the minority. However, please consider: 1. When I have asked for donations I have been criticized. 2. When I placed ads in the footers of list messages I have been criticized. 3. When I have made posts about products and sales from my "Merchandise Service" business -- which pays the bills -- I have been criticized. 4. After I discontinued all of the above, and things temporarily break, I am criticized. Put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself this question: "Why do I continue to do this?" The purpose of this post is not to solicit donations. In fact, I would likely return them, depending upon my forthcoming decision. I am just "venting" and telling you how things are. I am tired. I am disenchanted. I am tired of the politics. The PRR will go on without me. Perhaps my time has come. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:49:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: business cars Until the recent discussion of business cars, I had no idea the original name of car 7507 was BALTIMORE, not MARTIN W. CLEMENT. So now I'm wondering if the car at the Galveston Railroad Museum really is 7507. Can someone tell me where to look for a builders plate or other item that would verify the car really is 7507? Thanks Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:23:30 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Dupes & More Serious Matters > Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:39:39 -0400 > Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Dupes & More Serious Matters > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" , > "Reading-Talk LIST" > , > "Conrail-Talk LIST" > 1. When I have asked for donations I have been criticized. > > 2. When I placed ads in the footers of list messages I have been criticized. > > 3. When I have made posts about products and sales from my "Merchandise > Service" business -- which pays the bills -- I have been criticized. > > 4. After I discontinued all of the above, and things temporarily break, I am > criticized. > > Put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself this question: "Why do I continue > to do this?" Because you like being beat up? I know that I was critical of at least one item in the list above, but I also know how to unsubscribe and did from the PRR list for awhile. :-) I find the duplicates to be slightly irritating, but I also know where my key is. I reply to this because I want to ask if you are sure that it is your equipment and software that is at fault or is there a possibility that the problem has some external cause? I run a small local list myself and a series of profane messages would soon get the sender removed from the list permanently. I also know that keeping the subscription list up and avoiding duplicates to specific individuals can be a problem, but I have never had a problem like this one. For the record, I support your efforts and you have the right to do whatever it takes to keep it going if you want to. In the event that I really object, I can leave. :-) :-) Roger Roger Hensley 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Coo Day Tah -- or, the search for accuracy in all things Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:36:30 -0400 (EDT) For the record, in case anyone cares, it's spelled: coup d'etat Now, the "e" in "etat" has an accent mark on it which I cannot reproduce reliably because of the lame-brained way most of youz allz software works, so imagine an accent mark from northeast to southwest. Coup = blow, hit d' = shortened (elised) form of de = of, though sometimes, as here, best translated as to Etat = state, as in the state. Initial e-accent aigu very frequently is found in words that, in the original Latin, contained an "s" immediately after the e -- thus, French etat comes from the Latin root estat- etc. Which has passed into English of its own right as the word "estate". It's pronounced, roughly, COO dayTAH. But of course, I only have 7 years of formal study of French, not 60, so don't anyone believe what I'm writing here. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:35:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Xenia and Real Quick, The last through freight Dayton-Columbus ran through Xenia about midnight Jan. 10, 1097. Rail train came through the next day and pulled the trails from the overpass to the Panhandle depot and the old NYC/Big 4 diamonds at London. Dayton and Western was Abandoned by Conrail circa 1980-1982 because I wrote stories about it for Dayton Daily News in 1979-1980. Rails from Dodson to the Richmond & Miami at New Paris were pulled by 19 84. CSX had trackage rights on the D&W for its Dayton & Union line through Greenville to Union City. It kept the D&W open from Dayton through Dodson (1.4 miles north of Brookville) where the D&W and D&U parted ways. The D&W west of the southern edge of Trotwood was abandoned in the early 90s. It's open from the NS/CSX mains at the west end of the Great Miami River bridge in Dayton to Trotwood, about 5 miles, for local switching. Hope this answers the question. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 11:45:23 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Xenia LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > Real Quick, The last through freight Dayton-Columbus ran through Xenia about > midnight Jan. 10, 1097. -- Tom, I had no idea how advanced a civilization the pre-Columbian Indians had out there in Ohio. That was only some 30 years after the Norman invasion of England!! ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 11:45:23 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Xenia LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > Real Quick, The last through freight Dayton-Columbus ran through Xenia about > midnight Jan. 10, 1097. -- Tom, I had no idea how advanced a civilization the pre-Columbian Indians had out there in Ohio. That was only some 30 years after the Norman invasion of England!! ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 12:46:21 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Xenia and Anyone that could give me a bibliograhical citation (and if it exists in public domain) for a corporate history of Lines West would earn a chit for one free beer. Thanks. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 14:20:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Bethlehem Car Works Cars From: "Jerry Britton" The new Bethlehem Car Works cars are now available in the "Merchandise Service" eStore. There are two versions of the B70A Scenery Car (original vs. modern doors) and one version of the B70B Horse Car. These kits feature brass sides and plastic roof and ends. Decals are included with a full range of car numbers. The kits are discounted. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:15:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Touche, Andy Er, Last Conrail through freight passed through Xenia, Ohio, Jan. 10, 1987 ending 142 years of railroading in central Greene County, Ohio. Tom V. In a message dated 9/1/99 11:46:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << Tom, I had no idea how advanced a civilization the pre-Columbian Indians had out there in Ohio. That was only some 30 years after the Norman invasion of England!! ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:27:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between In a message dated 9/1/99 12:53:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << Anyone that could give me a bibliographical citation (and if it exists in public domain) for a corporate history of Lines West would earn a chit for one free beer. Thanks. Vagel Keller >> There's none yet though I know of several people working on histories of various components, myself included. If anyone's gonna write it, I'll lay my money on Chris Baer at the Hagley Museum in Wilmington, DE. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:49:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] LWFF 2000 only a year away (was: Convention News - Vagel, The next Lines West Fans Fest will be in the fall of 2000. I'm leaning toward a Columbus location and early October date. Tom V. In a message dated 8/30/99 3:20:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << > Announced at the convention was that the next three conventions will be held > at the Radison Penn Harris in Camp Hill, Pa. ... > ... The society signed a three-year contract. The facility is first rate as > far as set-up goes. Well, at least that's fairly centrally located ... IF you're a resident Pennsylvanian. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:59:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter In a message dated 8/30/99 5:32:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << and the potential to be recognized by belonging to both your geographically local chapter AND the cyber chapter. How many PRRT&HS-member PRR-Talk subscribers are members of their local chapter? Mea Culpa! >> And just where is the Geographically convenient chapter in proximity to Xenia? Most Pennsy fans hereabouts gave up on thePRRT&HS because of the perceived Lines East bias. Lines West Fans Fest 2K will be somewhere in Central Ohio in the fall of 2000. I'd like a Columbus site and to have at least on e event in the Panhandle depot on the Little Miami & Columbus & Xenia RR in London, Ohio, now used as a party hallll ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:50:17 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Lines West reference book vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: > Anyone that could give me a bibliograhical citation (and if it exists > in public domain) for a corporate history of Lines West would earn a > chit for one free beer. Thanks. > Vagel Keller Greetings to Vagel and the list: The grand-daddy of all Lines West corporate histories is Samuel H. Church's 15-volume epic. It is titled Corporate History of the Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh, Comprising Charters, Mortgages, Decrees, Deeds, Leases, Agreements, Ordinances, and Other Papers, with Descriptive Text. Baltimore, Friedenwald Co., printer, 1898-1927, Vols. 1-15 plus "13 index." Church was assistant secretary of the Pennsylvania Company (not PRR). Exhaustive would be the best way to describe both this editorial product and the effort needed to use it. Want to know which way the town council of New Brighton voted on a proposed ordinance that affected the railroad, and whether the council overrode the burgess's veto? It's there. Want to know the terms of an agreement whereby PFtW&C, LS&MS and CRI&P agreed to give Pere Marquette access to Englewood Union Station? It's there. How many wires PRR got for its own use when a telegraph company wanted to string commercial lines on the company's poles along the Waynesburg & Washington RR? When that license went into effect and when it was terminated? You get the idea. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com 2 Tim.2:1-2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] ETCHED MODEL TOWER AND DEPOT SIGNS Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:40:29 -0700 Hello... Does anybody out there have an address, URL or whatever for Doug Jones' Schuchill Division? Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: VVA249@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:56 PM Subject: [PRR] ETCHED MODEL TOWER AND DEPOT SIGNS > Are the model etched Tower and Depot signs still availible and from whom? >It's NOT Doug Jones' Schuchill Division - he does Loco Numbers; builder's >plates; Trust Plates and tender plates >Dick Ross >Cleveland > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:28:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES Folks, Does anyone know the nanes and corresponding numbers of Pennsy's B74B horse express cars? I've seen it somewhere but Lord knows where and can't locate anything now. Bethlehem's new cars are a real break, even if they'll reduce my prized Walthers model to background status. But that's ok, a couple of new kits will enable me to add another special to a branch that mostly sees race track trains anyway, and a little freight service. Now to get busy on that grandstand flat and paddock garden. Doo Dah, Doo Dah! Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 23:06:57 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES Source: Pennsy Journal Vol III No. 2 Theatrical Scenery Cars 6055 Patti 6056 Nordica re: Benjamin Franklin 6057 Caruso 6058 Jenny Lind 6059 Macbeth 6060 Falstaff 6061 Romeo 6062 Juliet 6063 Hamlet 6064 Cordelia 6065 Bob Acres 6066 Brutus 6067 Caesar 6068 Richelieu 6069 Ophelia 6070 Camille 6071 Desdemona 6072 Richard III 6073 Othello 6074 James A. Herne 6075 Denman Thompson 6076 Clyde Fitch 6077 Shakespeare 6078 Robin Hood 6079 DeKoven 6080 Gounod 6081 Stauss 6082 Wagner 6083 Victor Herbert 6084 Mozart 6085 Verdi 6086 Sullivan 6087 Lohengrin 6088 Aida 6089 Faust 6090 Tannhauser 6091 Carmen 6092 Pinafore 6093 Mikado 6094 Edwin Booth 6095 James K. Hackett 6096 Edwin Forrest 6097 Nat Goodwin 6098 John Drew 6099 Joseph Jefferson Horse Cars B74A 5800 Meadow Brook Club 5801 Blue Bonnets 5802 Beulah Park 5803 Cumberland 5804 Narragansett Racing Association 5805 Minton Hickory Stable 5806 Dorval 5807 Brookmeade Stable 5808 Dade Park 5809 Thormcliffe 5810 Fort Erie 5811 Horsemen's Transportation Association 5812 Kenilworth 5813 Mount Royal 5814 Bainbridge Park 5815 Greenwich Stude 5816 Maple Heights 5817 United States Polo Association 5818 Thistledown 5819 Mapleton Stud B74B 5820 Aqueduct 5821 Aurora 5822 Arlington Park 5823 Belmont Park 5824 Bowie 5825 Churchill Downs 5826 Empire City 5827 Fairmont Park 5828 Harve de Grace 5829 Hawthorne 5830 Hialeah 5831 Jamaica 5832 Jefferson Park 5833 Kentucky Association 5834 Laurel 5835 Latonia 5836 Lincoln Fields 5837 Oriental Park 5838 Pimlico 5839 Raceland 5840 Saratoga Springs 5841 Fair Grounds 5842 Tia Juana 5843 Washington Park 5844 Woodshire 5845 Wilson-Salmon Stable 5846 Idle Hour Stock Farm 5847 Erdenheim Farm 5848 Coldstream Stud 5849 Glen Riddle Farm 5850 Sun Briar Farm 5851 Newtondale Stable 5852 3D Stock Farm 5853 Fair Stable 5854 Wheatly Stable 5855 Audley Farm 5856 Foxcatcher Farms 5857 Himyar Stud 5858 Rancocas Stable 5859 Greentree Stable 5860 Seagram Stable 5861 Hanover Farms 5862 Whitney Stable 5863 Buxton-Loucheim Stable 5864 Hollyrood Farms 5865 Castleton Farm 5866 Tanglewood Farm 5867 Arden Homestead Stud 5868 Calumet Farm 5869 Elmendorf Farm There is a note at the bottom of the list: Note that the numbering of B74A was changed from 5551-5555, 5561-5565, and 5766-5775 to 5800-5819 at the time the names were applied. It did not state when the naming took place. This list belongs on someones website. One final caveat: There is an undated photo of #5832, Metropolitan Jockey Club, on the same page as the list. The author states cars carried different names during their lifetime. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 00:27:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] P5 electrics question Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > On 29 Aug, Dan Cupper wrote: > > > Withers Publishing has in the near-final stages of production a > > softcover Marty Zak B&W pictorial along the lines of the Jack Hahn > > series (and it does include a few Jack Hahn photos) that covers GG1s, > > the various P5 types, the several E-oddball ignitrons, and the E44s. It > > should be out this fall. > > You *will* keep us posted, won't you? > > Dennis Dennis: I'm editing the introduction now. Have already made two editing passes through all captions. We're talking multiple weeks now till it's ready, not multiple months. Dan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 00:27:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] P5 electrics question Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > On 29 Aug, Dan Cupper wrote: > > > Withers Publishing has in the near-final stages of production a > > softcover Marty Zak B&W pictorial along the lines of the Jack Hahn > > series (and it does include a few Jack Hahn photos) that covers GG1s, > > the various P5 types, the several E-oddball ignitrons, and the E44s. It > > should be out this fall. > > You *will* keep us posted, won't you? > > Dennis Dennis: I'm editing the introduction now. Have already made two editing passes through all captions. We're talking multiple weeks now till it's ready, not multiple months. Dan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:29:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Accents, et al. (was: Coo Day Tah) For use whenever you might need an accented or other letter: if the following collection appears with accents, umlauts, etc. all in place, then you should save this note as a text file. On the rare occasion when you need one of the characters, open the file and cut and paste that single character into your outgoing e-mail or whatever. I find that this method is a lot quicker than opening a font display and determining the multistroke sequence necessary to cull the character out of the font. Your mileage may vary, void where prohibited. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL Characters follow: ============= Áá Ââ Àà Ää Åå Ãã Ææ ª ç ð é Êê Èè Ëë í Îî Ìì Ïï ñ ó Ôô Òò Õõ Öö Øø º þ ú Ûû Ùù Üü ý ÿ ® ¼½¾ ¿¡ «» ¦ ¢¥ ¤µ¯´ ±×÷ ¶§¸°¨·¹²³| -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL (never studied French, other than for reading knowledge, but I do speak excellent EDL) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:29:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Peter Barton (was: Altoona) Each weekday morning at 5:58 on WFMT here in Chicago, the nighttime announcer, Peter Vandegraff, turns over to the morning show announcer, Carl Grapentine---the latter's first words are always: "Thank you, Peter". Those words start my day: and then this morning's e-mail gave me word of your moving on from Altoona, and my first thought was: Thank you, Peter. As an-almost annual visitor to Altoona for the Penn State railroad history symposia over the past many years, I have seen your visions become useful realities. You're leaving quite a legacy, and I am glad to have had a chance to meet its chief chef (even if a weekend at a time). Best wishes to you in Boston. -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES Date: Thu, 2 Sep 99 06:23:10 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/1/99 10:28 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: >Does anyone know the nanes and corresponding numbers of Pennsy's B74B horse >express cars? I've seen it somewhere but Lord knows where and can't locate >anything now. Bethlehem's new cars are a real break, even if they'll reduce >my prized Walthers model to background status. But that's ok, a couple of >new >kits will enable me to add another special to a branch that mostly sees race >track trains anyway, and a little freight service. Now to get busy on that >grandstand flat and paddock garden. Doo Dah, Doo Dah! The kits come with decals. Supposedly all numbers are included. Not sure about names. Several of the car names appear in the PRRT&HS painting guide. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:42:25 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > Does anyone know the nanes and corresponding numbers of Pennsy's B74B horse > express cars? I've seen it somewhere but Lord knows where and can't locate > anything now. Bethlehem's new cars are a real break, even if they'll reduce > my prized Walthers model to background status. But that's ok, a couple of new > kits will enable me to add another special to a branch that mostly sees race > track trains anyway, and a little freight service. Now to get busy on that > grandstand flat and paddock garden. Doo Dah, Doo Dah! > Thanks, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Barry, Would that be Garden State or Atlantic City?? or some other like Laurel? I'd say Pimlico was a B&O place. Tom Mahon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] A night at Enola January 12, 1963 (3PM to 11 PM) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:31:38 -0400 As most of you know, I was the afternoon Asst. Roundhouse Foreman at Enola during the 1962-1963 time frame at the time that the P-5s were being maintained through cannobalization and the E-44s were being delivered. I found a sheet the other day that chronicles the locomotive eastbound dispatchments during the 8 hour period for Saturday, January 12, 1963, the day 4449 made its first eastbound trip. I thought I would share the data with you to get a feel for how busy the Pennsy was east of Enola at that time. Train Destination Time Ordered Locomotive Numbers SW-10 Jersey City 3:00 PM 4422 Coal Ex. S. Amboy 3:10 PM 4875-4821-4843 Jet-2 Morrisville 3:25 PM 4412 B-2 Pot. Yard 3:40 PM 4809-4846 TT-2 Jersey City 6:20 PM 4867-4866 Adv. B-8 Baltimore 6:40 PM 4414-4402 SP-8 S. Phila. 6:50 PM 4411-4400 TT-4 Jersey City 6:55 PM 4420 NF-6 Jersey City 7:05 PM 4410 BNY-16 Jersey City 7:10 PM 4426-4417-4449 B-6 Pot. Yard 7:20 PM 4819-4839 CE-4 Thurlow 7:50 PM 4832-4848 DJ-2 Jersey City 7:55 PM 4448-4405 CG-2 Jersey City 8:10 PM 4836-4837 ED-4 Camden 8:25 PM 4826-4803 Gon. Ex. Baltimore 8:40 PM 4827 TT-6 Camden 8:55 PM 4439 ET-2 S. Amboy 9:15 PM 4756-4762 TH-2/4 Thurlow 10:20 PM 4432-4413 B-8 Baltimore 10:25 PM 4854 Totals 17 E-44, 17 GG-1, 2 P-5a SW-10 was from St. Louis NF-6 was "no feed" livestock DJ-2 was called the "Dixie Jet" TT-4 was from St. Louis BNY-16 was the "Beany" and was autoparts from Buffalo to Metuchin CG-2 was Chicago to Greenville car floats SP-8 was produce from California via Chicago to S. Philadelphia (very hot train) Visit my Pennsy Electrics page at http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/bvpr.htm Bill V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:29:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Chapter, PRRT&HS From: "Jerry Britton" The Pittsburgh Chapter of the PRRT&HS now has a web site. The URL is http://prrths-pc.pennsyrr.com The Northern Central Chapter's URL is http://prrths-ncc.pennsyrr.com It link is incorrect on the PRRT&HS site and I have been unsuccessful in getting it changed. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:29:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Chapter, PRRT&HS From: "Jerry Britton" The Pittsburgh Chapter of the PRRT&HS now has a web site. The URL is http://prrths-pc.pennsyrr.com The Northern Central Chapter's URL is http://prrths-ncc.pennsyrr.com It link is incorrect on the PRRT&HS site and I have been unsuccessful in getting it changed. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] Converse, Indiana Station Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:28:42 -0400 PRR Gize: I have just been informed that the PRR Converse, Indiana station is being put on hte actioning block today. The owner, which was using as an antique shop up until now, is asking about $55,000 along with the property. The are some property tax incentives since it is registered as a historic landmark. The building is in great condition and can be used as a home, office, business, etc. Converse is located on the Panhandle just west of Marion but east of Logansport. What makes this station stand out is its architecture. First, it is made from masonry brick and limestone (I think); it is not a wooden frame structure. Second, the window frames are unique in that the bottom corners are squared off but the top corners are rounded off. This really accents the entire structure. Firthermore, Converse was, and still is a small, sleepy farming community of less than 1,000. Generally speaking, these smaller communities warranted wooden frame structures with conventional architectural features. There were always exceptions and Converse is one of those.Given its architecture and its location, Converse Station is a true gem in the middle of cornfields. I believe that passenger service on this portion of the Panhandle ended early (circa 1953) but I am not sure of the exact date. This creates even more of a mystery on how and why Converse Station managaed to escape the wrecking ball in the PRR/PC/ CR areas.One could say that it was used by the MW dept. but with Marion just east of Conversee along with PRR Goodman Yard (that serves the auto plants) it would make more sense for the MW to be stationed in Marion. If anyone else has infromation on this station, please jump in! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:09:02 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chapters, Lines West The recent post in re lack of geographically close PRRTHS chapters to residents of Pennsy Lines West territory prompted a look at the society's chapter info web page. Other than DehTWAH (a nod to listers with six or more years of formal French training), E. Mich, and N. Ohio, there are none listed west of Pgh ... excepting Arizona. There should be at least 10 midwestern society members who live outside the autobelt territory of the Pennsy. Are you all that spread out that there are 10 folks within a 60-70 mile radius? Even then, given the technology, intercommunications wouldn't be too tough. Why not start a Panhandle Chapter, or a Ft. Wayne Chapter, or a soutern Ohio/Eastern Indianna Chapter. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:48:11 -0400 Haven't been on the list in a while so I apologize if this question has been recently asked. I assume that the front number plate the L1 was cast in brass or bronze. Therefore I would expect the raised rim and numbers to have a metallic sheen to them when seen in color photos. However, all to often the rim and numbers seen to be almost yellow (and a very bright yellow in some cases). Can anyone tell me if I'm imagining things. Were these plates sometimes trimmed in yellow paint? Thanks, Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:11:51 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West reference book-add Dan Cupper wrote: > The grand-daddy of all Lines West corporate histories is Samuel H. > Church's 15-volume epic. It is titled Corporate History of the > Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh, Comprising Charters, Mortgages, > Decrees, Deeds, Leases, Agreements, Ordinances, and Other Papers, with > Descriptive Text. Baltimore, Friedenwald Co., printer, 1898-1927, Vols. > 1-15 plus "13 index." Church was assistant secretary of the Pennsylvania > Company (not PRR). To Dan's reference let me add that anyone researching the Ft. wayne also should see the earlier coporate history of that company published in 1875 by the Penna Co. It contains a number of documents and official correspondence that Church ignored, presumably because it was in this volume. Official title: "Corporate History of the PFW&C Ry Co." printed in Pittsburgh by Stevenson & Foster. Also, it should be pointed out in fairness that much of this stuff is difficult to find. The Church collection was initially printed as a 12 volume set, and that is often all you'll find when you do locate it--just the first 12 volumes. Fortunately for us, Church added to three additional volumes between 1910 and 1927 as Lines West evolved and expanded. There are two volume 13's, the first an index to the earlier 12. Somehow the compiler or the publisher overlooked the index when issuing the next full volume--it came later, after the first 12 and is itself hard to find. My first look came at the Indiana State Library in Indianapolis, but they had only the first three volumes. My local reference librarian--who never once complained despite the flood of requests she got from me over the years--found a set of twelve through interlibrary loan at Indiana University of Pa. I also know of a set of 12 at UofI in Urbana, Ill., and I believe there is a set available somewhere around Pittsburgh. The only full 15-volume set I have found is at the Hagley (God bless you, Chris Baer). Incidentally, Mr Church, a fascinating character in his own right apart from the railroad, eventually attained the position of Secretary of the Penna Lines West of Pgh. Happy reading, Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:13:17 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Converse, Indiana Station-add Andrews, Ted wrote: > PRR Gize: > > I have just been informed that the PRR Converse, Indiana station is being > put on hte actioning block today. Converse is located on the Panhandle just > west of Marion but east of > Logansport. Converse was, and still is a small, sleepy farming community of > less than 1,000. Generally speaking, these smaller communities warranted > wooden frame structures with conventional architectural features. There were > always exceptions and Converse is one of those.Given its architecture and > its location, Converse Station is a true gem in the middle of cornfields. One possible reason for Converse's importance was that it was also the eastern terminus of the Chicago, Indiana & Eastern, a gas-belt line which extended to Muncie. The CI&E was constructed gradually in the mid-1890s, and was finally completed to Muncie in 1899. After going through several financial convulsions, the contractor sold the 40-mile road the PRR in 1907. [Church, 13:215-16] The CI&E was a perennial loser, so the PRR replaced the line with trackage rights over the Big Four from Anderson to Muncie and abandoned the line west of Matthews in 1933. This stub survived until 1973 as the "Muncie Yard Running Track." Passenger service initially began under PRR auspices with a through Pullman between Muncie and Chicago, but this service did not last long. The branch mainly hosted the usual pair of locals until all passenger service was discontinued sometime in the mid-1920s. In any event, Converse was where the locals met main line Pan Handle trains, and may have been where the Pullmans were set out, thus accounting for the fairly substantial station. According to Francis Parker ["Indiana RR Depots: A Threatoned Heritage" p54], the Converse station was constructed in 1911, based on a design by Price & McLanahan--a well-known architectural firm which was also responsible for PRR stations in Ridgeville and Fort Wayne. > I believe that passenger service on this portion of the Panhandle ended > early (circa 1953) but I am not sure of the exact date. Passenger service over this portion of the Pan Handle was discontinued at the end of 1958, however Converse itself probably lost its last train much earlier. > This creates even > more of a mystery on how and why Converse Station managaed to escape the > wrecking ball in the PRR/PC/ CR areas. I know when I visited in the late 1980s the station was already in private hands. In fact, although the structure was only in fair condition, whoever owned it was making an attempt to restore it. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:35:37 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Converse, Indiana Station-add-correction Richard Wallis wrote: > One possible reason for Converse's importance was that it was also the eastern > terminus of the Chicago, Indiana & Eastern, And he wrote that erroneously. Converse was, as any fool could see by consulting a map, the western terminus of the CI&E--any fool, that is, except me. Sorry. I'll spend the next few hours in the basement as punishment Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:45:39 -0400 Kris, The number plates were painted yellow and black. There is no bare metal on them. Saw a whole bunch at the Altoona model railroad club last week. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:27:43 -0400 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: [PRR] ETCHED MODEL TOWER AND DEPOT SIGNS At 05:40 PM 9/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hello... >Does anybody out there have an address, URL or whatever for Doug Jones' >Schuchill Division? >Bill Daniels Bill, The address on his card I picked up in Altoona is: Schuylkill Division Doug Jones 9835 Singleton Drive Bethesda, MD 20817-2300 Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Enola Electric Pits 1939 and 1963 Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:23:04 -0400 A few months ago we got into a lively discussion about stokers and I mentioned that Enola kept an M1 fired up next to the electric loco departure track in case a crew would complain about the hard riding and cold cabbed P-5s. Well here is a photo of that M-1 taken in 1939 by Chick Siebert of Camp Hill. http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr026.htm And here is a photo taken by yours truly at the same location in January 1963 of course with the diesel shop where the M-1 was sitting. At the right of the photo you can see the old car shop and power plant. http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr027.htm Thanks for listening. Bill V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:38:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] RPM web page & Bowser L-1 Hi Pennsy fans, This is an invitation to browse over to the RPM web page annd take a look at what I feel to be an excellent effort to more accurately depict a PRR L-1. The modeler involved contacted our own Greg Martin for feedback and while viewing the workmanship Greg felt it deserved wider exposure so other could see what could be done with a Bowser loco kit. Have a look see at: http://www.rpmrail.org The model is shown under construction under at the bottom of the index page. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Maddox" Subject: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:58:40 -0400 I have to travel from Phila to Minneapolis next summer and I was hoping to take the train and get to see Horseshoe Curve. Has anyone done this trip? Any hints, alternatives? Does anyone know of a travel agent that is good with Amtrak? By looking at the schedule, it seems that the Three Rivers is on the curve during daylight on the return trip. My biggest problem is that there is no sleeping car on that train and it's the longest leg of the trip. TIA, Doug maddoxdy@enter.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: [PRR] Modeling an L1 Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:12:13 -0400 Has any one ever added brake shoes to a Bowser L1 Mikado? If so how did the process go? Would you please pass on any specifics as to what detail parts you used, etc. Thanks, kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:22:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Update on Miracle Castings Erie-built B units From: "Jerry Britton" Just (finally) got an update from Miracle Castings on their long anticipated FM Erie-built B units... After many delays, they are hopeful that they will begin shipping by late next week. Good news for the many folks who have had these on backorder since early spring! It will likely take a few weeks for stock to become available (as dealers fill their backorders). The other PRR products -- BP20 Passenger Sharks and Erie-built A units -- remain readily available. See your local dealer or order through my eStore by credit card. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:26:16 EDT Yes. Because brass, or bronze, required polishing to remove tarnish (ask any soldier), the raised numbers and borders were usually painted a bright yellow, and not just one the Pennsy, but on most roads. This practice became nearly standard when brass was in limited supply during WW2, and castings were steel. These steel castings were similarly painted. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from down near C&O Milepost FM Zero. ______________________________________________________ >I assume that the front number plate the L1 was cast in brass or bronze. >Therefore I would expect the raised rim and numbers to have a metallic >sheen >to them when seen in color photos. However, all to often the rim and >numbers seen to be almost yellow (and a very bright yellow in some cases). >Can anyone tell me if I'm imagining things. Were these plates sometimes >trimmed in yellow paint? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:37:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak From: "Jerry Britton" >From: "Doug Maddox" >To: "PRR Talk" >Subject: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak >Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 2:58 PM > > I have to travel from Phila to Minneapolis next summer and I was hoping to > take the train and get to see Horseshoe Curve. Has anyone done this trip? > Any hints, alternatives? Does anyone know of a travel agent that is good > with Amtrak? > > By looking at the schedule, it seems that the Three Rivers is on the curve > during daylight on the return trip. My biggest problem is that there is no > sleeping car on that train and it's the longest leg of the trip. My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. The best solution for riding around the Curve, IMHO, is to go to RailFest. You ride from Altoona to Gallitzen and back, thus traversing the Curve twice on a one-hour trip...and it's during the day! My comment on visiting the Curve is rooted in the fact that I've been there several times and rarely see more than a train or two. Traffic isn't what it used to be. Seeing is believing, however, and helps put things in perspective when reading about the Curve and what it meant to the railroad. Also, a "must see" is Digital Image Works video on "Conrail Horseshoe Curve Helpers". You can get a copy through DIW at http://www.digitalimageworks.com or through "Merchandise Service" at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:59:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Andy Cich >To: PRR Mailing List >Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES >Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 12:06 AM > > This list belongs on someones website. It will appear on "Keystone Crossings" shortly. Does anyone know how late (year), in general, horse cars were still in use? What about the scenery cars? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:09:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak In a message dated 9/2/99 3:00:45 PM EST, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. >> Perhaps, but when "Trains" did an issue on "The Holy Places of Railroading" Horseshoe Curve was on the cover...... Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:59:20 -0400 When I was at Penn Coach Yard in Philly in 1963 (April) I took pictures of two of them right out of Altoona's REX shop numbered 801 and 802 painted bright green and lettered Railway EXpress. That was the last time I saw a horse car in service on the PRR. If I can find a copy of the print I will get it up on the web for you. I have had lots of calls from people who want copies of the photo but I can't find the negative either. BUT THEY EXIST! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES >>From: Andy Cich >>To: PRR Mailing List >>Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES >>Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 12:06 AM >> > >> This list belongs on someones website. > >It will appear on "Keystone Crossings" shortly. > >Does anyone know how late (year), in general, horse cars were still in use? > >What about the scenery cars? >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: RE: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:10:51 -0400 The Three Rivers now runs with refurbished Heritage sleepers. This service doesnt appear on the Amtrak website but you should be able to book a room by calling Amtrak. When my father and I have visited the curve we where rewarded with three-five trains an hour, headlight to headlight meets, and lots of horn action. I've been twice. We once took the westbound Three Rivers over the curve, the train is long you can see both ends while taking the curve. I think its worth the ride, you will also pass a whole bunch of train action(or has that changed with the NS presence?). -Josh Trower ---------- From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 3:37 PM To: maddoxdy@enter.net; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak >From: "Doug Maddox" >To: "PRR Talk" >Subject: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak >Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 2:58 PM > > I have to travel from Phila to Minneapolis next summer and I was hoping to > take the train and get to see Horseshoe Curve. Has anyone done this trip? > Any hints, alternatives? Does anyone know of a travel agent that is good > with Amtrak? > > By looking at the schedule, it seems that the Three Rivers is on the curve > during daylight on the return trip. My biggest problem is that there is no > sleeping car on that train and it's the longest leg of the trip. My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. The best solution for riding around the Curve, IMHO, is to go to RailFest. You ride from Altoona to Gallitzen and back, thus traversing the Curve twice on a one-hour trip...and it's during the day! My comment on visiting the Curve is rooted in the fact that I've been there several times and rarely see more than a train or two. Traffic isn't what it used to be. Seeing is believing, however, and helps put things in perspective when reading about the Curve and what it meant to the railroad. Also, a "must see" is Digital Image Works video on "Conrail Horseshoe Curve Helpers". You can get a copy through DIW at http://www.digitalimageworks.com or through "Merchandise Service" at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:31:02 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak I have heard the same about traffic levels on the Curve as well...but when I was there in the Spring of 1998 it was a hopping place. I think...if my memory serves me correctly I saw 8 trains in the 2.5 hours I was there. Really was interesting for this man raised around flat railroading (Buffalo NY) to see heavy tonnage and lots of it. But the real kicker was later that evening while my cousins took me to SLOPE and the overpass there that I saw ALOT of trains. I stayed at SLOPE from about 9pm til well after midnight taking it all in. The next morning was busy as well. Just my .02 On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Jerry Britton wrote: >>From: "Doug Maddox" >>To: "PRR Talk" >>Subject: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak >>Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 2:58 PM >> > >> I have to travel from Phila to Minneapolis next summer and I was hoping to >> take the train and get to see Horseshoe Curve. Has anyone done this trip? >> Any hints, alternatives? Does anyone know of a travel agent that is good >> with Amtrak? >> >> By looking at the schedule, it seems that the Three Rivers is on the curve >> during daylight on the return trip. My biggest problem is that there is no >> sleeping car on that train and it's the longest leg of the trip. > >My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip >around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve >is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. > >The best solution for riding around the Curve, IMHO, is to go to RailFest. >You ride from Altoona to Gallitzen and back, thus traversing the Curve twice >on a one-hour trip...and it's during the day! > >My comment on visiting the Curve is rooted in the fact that I've been there >several times and rarely see more than a train or two. Traffic isn't what it >used to be. Seeing is believing, however, and helps put things in >perspective when reading about the Curve and what it meant to the railroad. > >Also, a "must see" is Digital Image Works video on "Conrail Horseshoe Curve >Helpers". You can get a copy through DIW at http://www.digitalimageworks.com >or through "Merchandise Service" at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:31:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak From: "Doug and Marianne" I will beg to differ about Horseshoe Curve. First of all, to Doug Maddox, the Three Rivers does carry a sleeping car, but westbound it passes the Curve around 8:30 pm (when it is on-time, which has not been often lately). I believe that the Pennsylvanian (train 43) is also carrying a sleeper now, although it is not indicated in the printed schedule (it carries Heritage sleepers). It passes the Curve in mid afternoon. The first time I ever saw the Curve was at night time on the Broadway Limited from an open dutch door. Its quite a view at night with the lights of the train windows arching around you. Check with Amtrak or there are several travel agents that specialize in train travel - they usually advertise in magazines such as TRAINS. As for Jerry's opinion of Horseshoe Curve, I still think that this is one of the greatest railroad sights anywhere. Jerry has not had the good fortune to be there with much traffic, but the traffic does tend to come in bunches and I have seen double meets (occasionally triple meets) on most of the occasions that I have visited. Last week while attending the convention, the westbound Pennsylvanian passed the Curve at the same time as an eastbound coal drag. I'm sure that a few of the passengers were disappointed to have the view blocked by the solid string of hoppers. ---------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES (and dates) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:42:00 -0400 Correction. Make that April of 1962, not 63.. I was in Enola in April of 63. Memory division was on hold when I wrote that memo. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer To: Jerry Britton ; PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES >When I was at Penn Coach Yard in Philly in 1963 (April) I took pictures of >two of them right out of Altoona's REX shop numbered 801 and 802 painted >bright green and lettered Railway EXpress. That was the last time I saw a >horse car in service on the PRR. > >If I can find a copy of the print I will get it up on the web for you. I >have had lots of calls from people who want copies of the photo but I can't >find the negative either. BUT THEY EXIST! > >Bill V. >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:06 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES > > >>>From: Andy Cich >>>To: PRR Mailing List >>>Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES >>>Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 12:06 AM >>> >> >>> This list belongs on someones website. >> >>It will appear on "Keystone Crossings" shortly. >> >>Does anyone know how late (year), in general, horse cars were still in use? >> >>What about the scenery cars? >>--------------------------------------------------------- >>Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" >> http://kc.pennsyrr.com >>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products >> http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:35:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Horse and scenery car dates (was HORSE CAR NAMES) In a message dated 9/2/1999 3:20:02 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Does anyone know how late (year), in general, horse cars were still in use? >> Only one piece of the puzzle, but 20 B74Bs were sold to REA in 1961-62. Don;t know if they continued in horse as well as general express service. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:41:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak In a message dated 9/2/1999 3:21:10 PM Central Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << << My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. >> Perhaps, but when "Trains" did an issue on "The Holy Places of Railroading" Horseshoe Curve was on the cover...... >> Trip around the curve is rather short, but a trip to the curve is a different story for us flatlanders. It only takes one train with turbochargers screaming upgrade to make it seem a worthwhile visit. And a mineral train downgrade with retainers set and dynamics throwing smoke ain't bad, either. First train I witnessed had two GE widenoses hauling a Mail upgrade without helpers--spectacular, but maybe not as impressive to those who live in the mountains all the time. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:50:20 -0400 Hi All! Just wanted to throw a little input into the group about this subject. Please note that these are my PERSONAL views, and not those of Miracle Castings Inc. I'd use my personal e-mail to post, but I'm not registered under it, only under the company's e-mail. In his message, Jerry said: "1. When I have asked for donations I have been criticized. 2. When I placed ads in the footers of list messages I have been criticized. 3. When I have made posts about products and sales from my "Merchandise Service" business -- which pays the bills -- I have been criticized. 4. After I discontinued all of the above, and things temporarily break, I am criticized." I run a list on Onelist.com which has about 430 members. I don't own or operate the servers, pay any monthly charges for access, net connections, upgrades of software, etc. Onelist does all the maintenance, spends all the time and all the money to keep my list going. And yet, I OWN THE LIST. I can do WHATEVER I WANT, including advertising on my list and / or web pages, allowing sponsors, plug my own product if I want to, and generally act in a completely autocratic manner. If I don't like a subscriber for any reason, I can arbitrarily cut them off, and there's nothing they can do about it! Therefore I say to Jerry: YOU pay for ALL of the charges incurred in operating this list. YOU spend all the time maintaining the servers, troubleshooting, etc. Therefore if you feel you want to advertise in the list, post ads on the web pages, and otherwise try to recover the costs of operating this list, I feel that the subscribers on the list have absolutely no right whatsoever to criticize you for that. If they don't like it, they can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I wouldn't put up with that in my list, and I haven't invested a cent! I make it quite clear to my subscribers what is acceptable to ME, and they must abide by that or unsubscribe (or I'll do it for them). It's YOUR list, Jerry, in every conceivable way. I suggest that you tell us how it's going to be, and anyone who doesn't like it can take a hike. Pat Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Items of interest Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:49:59 -0500 Hi, all, While recently reading through a Middle Div. ETT for 1933, I came across these two items: D3410 - Rule 706 modified. Uniforms - Designated uniformed employees must wear the standard uniform Nov. 1st to April 30th, both inclusive. The uniform designated for Summer use only, or standard mohair coats may be worn May 1st to Oct. 31st, both inclusive. Coats must be buttoned, except when trainmen are actually engaged in lifting transportation. I've always wondered why PRR crews in photos always seem to have their coats buttoned - now I know why! And boy, compared with today, talk about regimentation -- but I'll bet the PRR was no exception in this. It must have gotten pretty warm/cold on occasion -- and what would happen to you if you violated the rule? But here's my favorite. I'd heard to of the popular rr pantomime (sp?) for hotboxes -- holding your nose and pointing at the car. But regarding the rules governing inspection of passing trains, the ETT states that by day a person who observes a hot-box should "hold nose with one hand, with other hand pointed to track." I wonder what other railroader-created body language was made into a rule?? George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 21:08:08 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Items of interest --On Thu, Sep 2, 1999 6:49 PM -0500 "George N Pierson" wrote: > ...And boy, compared with today, talk about > regimentation -- Take a look at the general rules at the front of the rule books for that period ... "entering the service," "obedience to the rules," ... reads like the Articles of War! The language lightened up somewhat later on, but not much. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 21:18:28 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] THE Rules Just a follow up to my previous post on PRR General Rules and "regimentation" (and w/ thanks to Mark D. Bej for maintaining the 1956 rules on his Pennsy site) ------------------ GENERAL NOTICE Safety is of first importance in the discharge of duty. Obedience to the rules is essential to Safety. To enter or remain in the service is an assurance of willingness to obey the rules. The welfare of the Company depends upon the confidence of its patrons in the integrity and trustworthiness of all employes and in their ability to properly perform their assigned tasks safely and efficiently. The service demands the faithful, intelligent, and courteous discharge of duty. To obtain promotion, ability must be shown for greater responsibility. ------------------------- Kinda reads like there wasn't much room for error, don't it!? Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:18:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Etched signs In a message dated 9/2/99 1:16:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << I suppose you mean the ones that were made by Custom Railway Supply? I have not seen these for a while. I quit buying the Walthers Catalogs so I do not know if or when they stopped carrying these any more. Last time I seen a set of these was at a train show. Didn't buy them because there was no station listed on there that I could use. There is an old hobby shop that used to carry them, I will check to see if they are still there. I will let you know later. I assume you mean HO scale? Gary >> Gary and all, Custom Railway Supply is very much alive and well. They are a hobby shop here in Colorado Springs. Should anyone wish to contact them regarding this, here is the address and phone number. Custom Railway Supply 432 W. Fillmore Colorado Springs, CO. 80907 (719) 634-4616 Stuart Thayer PS: They also have quite a bit of PRR brass. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLCCR@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:14:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak This may be a bit off of the PRR subject. 43 and 44, the "day-time" trains, despite what an earlier post said, doesn't carry a sleeper; carries a "short-haul" bombardier coach, amfleet long-distance (leg rests) coach and an amcoach w/snack bar (lots of mail roadrailer on tail from HBG-CHI). I took it around the curve 8/26 and yes, the curve was blocked by an eastbound freight. Amtraked from Downingtown to Chicago 8/26 and return 8/30. This is a railfan speaking...it's a long day trip...with the NS delays. The trip to Chi wasn't too bad; in fact, quite enjoyable leaving Pittsburgh in daylight for a change. Arrived in Chi only 90 minutes late. On the return, left Chi 20 minutes late, lost another 2 hours by the time we arrived in Cleveland, and left Pittsburgh 3 hours late. The most delay-prone segment of the trip is between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg. Arrived in Harrisburg 5 hours late; and upon our arrival at approx 3am, was awakened by the news that the train was being terminated and all passengers were instructed to board 2 buses in front of the terminal for bussing to the final stops. So much for a restful coach ride. I'd recommend sticking with the 3 Rivers for its sleeper and be prepared for NS delays; although I hope this situation improves before too many more passengers are driven away from this "service". Bob R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:22:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their > own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I I do agree with put up or shut up, but more fragmentation in the PRR list community isn't useful either... You can't please everyone, so you might as well start with yourself, I guess -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:22:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their > own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I I do agree with put up or shut up, but more fragmentation in the PRR list community isn't useful either... You can't please everyone, so you might as well start with yourself, I guess -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:22:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their > own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I I do agree with put up or shut up, but more fragmentation in the PRR list community isn't useful either... You can't please everyone, so you might as well start with yourself, I guess -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Items of interest Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:45:45 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of vck@andrew.cmu.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 9:08 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Items of interest --On Thu, Sep 2, 1999 6:49 PM -0500 "George N Pierson" wrote: > ...And boy, compared with today, talk about > regimentation -- Take a look at the general rules at the front of the rule books for that period ... "entering the service," "obedience to the rules," ... reads like the Articles of War! The language lightened up somewhat later on, but not much. ============================================================= Vagel, That's because railroading was a lot like war, there was a lot at stake. One false move or slip up and you, or your co-workers could get maimed or killed, to say nothing of killing passengers or damaging thousands of dollars of freight. Believe me there was little room for error, and fortunately the people on the railroad by in large took it all very seriously. I remember one night in 1964 working on a track lowering project between Zoo and North Philadelphia, I almost got run over by my own work train reversing back to Mantua yard on an adjacent track. He was pushing a cut of H-21 hoppers to the yard with no man on the leading end, no lights, no backup hose, no nothing. In violation of Rule 19 "When cars are pushed by an engine (except when shifting or making up trains in yards) a white light must be displayed on the front of the leading car by night." Needless to say the conductor got his butt reamed. However, the railroad industry was not alone - most heavy manufacturing and mining industries were very safety conscious. But, unlike manufacturing plants and mines the railroad industry had passengers who everytime they got on a train put their faith in the hands of dispatchers, block operators, conductors, enginemen, trackmen and carmen, i.e., the entire team that operated, fixed and repaired. Like I said there was little room for error. I also spent seven years on active duty in the Army - Armor Branch. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Items of interest Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:57:48 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of vck@andrew.cmu.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 9:08 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Items of interest --On Thu, Sep 2, 1999 6:49 PM -0500 "George N Pierson" wrote: > ...And boy, compared with today, talk about > regimentation -- Take a look at the general rules at the front of the rule books for that period ... "entering the service," "obedience to the rules," ... reads like the Articles of War! The language lightened up somewhat later on, but not much. ============================================================= Vagel, That's because railroading was a lot like war, there was a lot at stake. One false move or slip up and you, or your co-workers could get maimed or killed, to say nothing of killing passengers or damaging thousands of dollars of freight. Believe me there was little room for error, and fortunately the people on the railroad by in large took it all very seriously. I remember one night in 1964 working on a track lowering project between Zoo and North Philadelphia, I almost got run over by my own work train reversing back to Mantua yard on an adjacent track. He was pushing a cut of H-21 hoppers to the yard with no man on the leading end, no lights, no backup hose, no nothing. In violation of Rule 19 "When cars are pushed by an engine (except when shifting or making up trains in yards) a white light must be displayed on the front of the leading car by night." Needless to say the conductor got his butt reamed. However, the railroad industry was not alone - most heavy manufacturing and mining industries were very safety conscious. But, unlike manufacturing plants and mines the railroad industry had passengers who everytime they got on a train put their faith in the hands of dispatchers, block operators, conductors, enginemen, trackmen and carmen, i.e., the entire team that operated, fixed and repaired. Like I said there was little room for error. I also spent seven years on active duty in the Army - Armor Branch. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:06:59 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > I run a list on Onelist.com which has about 430 members. I don't own or > operate the servers, pay any monthly charges for access, net connections, > upgrades of software, etc. Onelist does all the maintenance, spends all the > time and all the money to keep my list going. And yet, I OWN THE LIST. I > can do WHATEVER I WANT, including advertising on my list and / or web pages, > allowing sponsors, plug my own product if I want to, and generally act in a > completely autocratic manner. If I don't like a subscriber for any reason, I > can arbitrarily cut them off, and there's nothing they can do about it! > Therefore I say to Jerry: YOU pay for ALL of the charges incurred in > operating this list. YOU spend all the time maintaining the servers, > troubleshooting, etc. Therefore if you feel you want to advertise in the > list, post ads on the web pages, and otherwise try to recover the costs of > operating this list, I feel that the subscribers on the list have absolutely > no right whatsoever to criticize you for that. If they don't like it, they > can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their > own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I > wouldn't put up with that in my list, and I haven't invested a cent! I make > it quite clear to my subscribers what is acceptable to ME, and they must > abide by that or unsubscribe (or I'll do it for them). It's YOUR list, > Jerry, in every conceivable way. I suggest that you tell us how it's going > to be, and anyone who doesn't like it can take a hike. > > Pat Lawless Can't help but notice that you've got an interesting surname there, Pat. :-) Richard Wallis > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 23:13:23 -0500 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/02/99 Jerry, Regarding Pat Lawless' words on doing what you like on the list. I agree and strongly support the idea that you can and should advertise the business that supports the list, and for that matter, anything else you wish to advertise. There are people in this world, and it would seem especially on the many net lists, that spend a lot of time finding fault. Nothing will satisfy them. Too bad. Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:50:40 -0700 Kris, In a nutshell, no you weren't, and yes they were. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Kollar, Kris To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 8:52 AM Subject: [PRR] L1 number plates >Haven't been on the list in a while so I apologize if this question has been >recently asked. > >I assume that the front number plate the L1 was cast in brass or bronze. >Therefore I would expect the raised rim and numbers to have a metallic sheen >to them when seen in color photos. However, all to often the rim and >numbers seen to be almost yellow (and a very bright yellow in some cases). >Can anyone tell me if I'm imagining things. Were these plates sometimes >trimmed in yellow paint? > >Thanks, > >Kris > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chapters, Lines West Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:49:19 -0700 Hmmm...shouldn't that be "Cite DehTWAH"??? And I am ashamed that I forgot about the Arizona Chapter (Bill Kress will never forgive me!!!)...but in fact they all are up in Phoenix. Bill Daniels, Tucson (not Phoenix) AZ -----Original Message----- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 8:13 AM Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chapters, Lines West >Other than DehTWAH (a nod to listers with six or >more years of formal French training), E. Mich, and N. Ohio, there are none >listed west of Pgh ... excepting Arizona. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] ETCHED MODEL TOWER AND DEPOT SIGNS Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:05:07 -0700 Hi out there... Muchas Gracias to both Brian Brooks and Doug Kisala for their posts regarding the address of Doug Jones's Schuylkill Division! Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Date: Fri, 3 Sep 99 06:35:52 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/2/99 6:50 PM, Miracle Castings Inc. (miracle-castings@on.aibn.com) wrote: >I run a list on Onelist.com which has about 430 members. I don't own or >operate the servers, pay any monthly charges for access, net connections, >upgrades of software, etc. Onelist does all the maintenance, spends all the >time and all the money to keep my list going. And yet, I OWN THE LIST. I >can do WHATEVER I WANT, including advertising on my list and / or web pages, >allowing sponsors, plug my own product if I want to, and generally act in a >completely autocratic manner. If I don't like a subscriber for any reason, I >can arbitrarily cut them off, and there's nothing they can do about it! >Therefore I say to Jerry: YOU pay for ALL of the charges incurred in >operating this list. YOU spend all the time maintaining the servers, >troubleshooting, etc. Therefore if you feel you want to advertise in the >list, post ads on the web pages, and otherwise try to recover the costs of >operating this list, I feel that the subscribers on the list have absolutely >no right whatsoever to criticize you for that. If they don't like it, they >can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their >own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I >wouldn't put up with that in my list, and I haven't invested a cent! I make >it quite clear to my subscribers what is acceptable to ME, and they must >abide by that or unsubscribe (or I'll do it for them). It's YOUR list, >Jerry, in every conceivable way. I suggest that you tell us how it's going >to be, and anyone who doesn't like it can take a hike. First, thanks for the support. Second, to respond to why I do not serve via OneList: Archives. On my server, the digests from all the lists are fed into my database server. That allows search and retrieval -- based on keywords and/or fields -- of over 15,000 past posts. Unless there is some hidden way of doing it, on OneList all you can do is manually read over past digests...or maintain your own archive. This information is too valuable to not be able to access it readily. OneList does not serve MY purpose, and I doubt it would serve yours over the long haul. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 07:26:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates In a message dated 9/2/99 12:09:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kris.kollar@paharr.ang.af.mil writes: << Haven't been on the list in a while so I apologize if this question has been recently asked. I assume that the front number plate the L1 was cast in brass or bronze. Therefore I would expect the raised rim and numbers to have a metallic sheen to them when seen in color photos. However, all to often the rim and numbers seen to be almost yellow (and a very bright yellow in some cases). Can anyone tell me if I'm imagining things. Were these plates sometimes trimmed in yellow paint? Thanks, Kris >> Kris, Although there are better experts than I, I am in the middle of settling an estate that contains several keystone number plates. What I have learned/been told by experts: 1. although some number and builder plates are described as "bronze", I have been cautioned that virtually all of these are really brass. Brass is an alloy; some brasses isn't as bright yellowish as others, presumably because of a lower copper content. In any case, these got dirty enough quickly enough that "shiny" alone wouldn't be visible. 2. "Reconditioned plates" are those that have been cleaned up, usually painted in bright red with yellow on letters and rim. However, I've seen and examined a keystone which may have original finish (i.e., railroad applied 50 years ago), and it looked like a dark red with remains of yellow on the raised numbers and rim. Comments anyone else? Rick Tipton Awash in the Jack Fravert collection (and therefore 50-year-old locomotive soot). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 07:26:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Converse, Indiana Station In a message dated 9/2/99 10:45:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << Firthermore, Converse was, and still is a small, sleepy farming community of less than 1,000. Generally speaking, these smaller communities warranted wooden frame structures with conventional architectural features. There were always exceptions and Converse is one of those.Given its architecture and its location, Converse Station is a true gem in the middle of cornfields. >> One item in Converse's favor -- it was once the junction point for a line PRR had to Muncie IN. Although this line joined the Pennsy family sometime after 1905, it should be findable in GRI (Sulzer's Ghost Railroads of Indiana), which I haven't even had time to unwrap. Wonder if being a junction had anything to do with the more substantial station? Converse is one of those stations I never got to shoot. Glad it's still standing. Rick Tipton Lines well West of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:39:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates In a message dated 9/3/99 6:37:40 AM EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << 1. although some number and builder plates are described as "bronze", I have been cautioned that virtually all of these are really brass. Brass is an alloy; some brasses isn't as bright yellowish as others, presumably because of a lower copper content. In any case, these got dirty enough quickly enough that "shiny" alone wouldn't be visible. >> BOTH Brass and Bronze are alloys: Brass is Copper + Zinc - Bronze is Copper + Tin and has a higher melting point, is harder and is usually darker in color. Brass would normally be used for "decorative" castings - and the color can vary according to the mixture in the "alloy" - while bronze is more likely to be used for operating parts - such as bearings or wear plates. I do believe, again, that any Brass number plates would have been pre WW 2 - as Copper was in such short supply that Pennies and Locomotive Bells were made of Steel. Painted backgrounds should be Black (not DGLE) on the Freight "roundels" and Toulidine Red on the Keystones - in some of the early color films you can see that red number plate almost before you can see the locomotive Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jimy6b@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:50:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services PRR Talk is great!! Jerry if you want to advertise thats fine with me its your list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:03:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Notes Of Support From: "Jerry Britton" I appreciate all of the notes of support I have been receiving...especially all the good ideas. I will share with you that a proposal is in the works. However, in order to keep the list archives a bit cleaner and more to the point, please do not CC or post your notes of support to the list. They are indeed appreciated, but let's stick to the topic at hand. I post to the list because I need to share news of the situation. Thank you! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:18:06 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Jerry, If you are collecting votes of confidence, you have mine. If it pays to advertise - do it. I would gladly wade through piles of Spam for the nuggets of value on this list. But on top of that, your advertisers contribute, to my mind, great information value. Without PRR-Talk and it ads I never would have know about Miracle castings! You've been through enough electronic fecal matter recently, and should not have to put up with this - and that's a "fact". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:18:06 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Jerry, If you are collecting votes of confidence, you have mine. If it pays to advertise - do it. I would gladly wade through piles of Spam for the nuggets of value on this list. But on top of that, your advertisers contribute, to my mind, great information value. Without PRR-Talk and it ads I never would have know about Miracle castings! You've been through enough electronic fecal matter recently, and should not have to put up with this - and that's a "fact". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:20:17 -0400 I have several P-5 builders plates and they are all aluminum. My GG-1 Builders plate off 4854 is brass. The Altoona Works B-1s were cast iron. What is interesting is that I got four of the marker lights off of the 4704. The two piece jobs like the steam locos had on the pilots and tenders. Two of the bonnets were brass and two were cast iron, as I put them in the lye vat and stripped the paint off of them before carting them home. I think that the high theft rate of brass fixtures in the 1940s prompted the PRR to go to cast iron wherever possible. For what that's worth. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: VVA249@aol.com To: RickTipton@aol.com Cc: Prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates >In a message dated 9/3/99 6:37:40 AM EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > ><< 1. although some number and builder plates are described as "bronze", I >have > been cautioned that virtually all of these are really brass. Brass is an > alloy; some brasses isn't as bright yellowish as others, presumably because > of a lower copper content. In any case, these got dirty enough quickly > enough that "shiny" alone wouldn't be visible. >> > > BOTH Brass and Bronze are alloys: Brass is Copper + Zinc - Bronze is >Copper + Tin and has a higher melting point, is harder and is usually darker >in color. > Brass would normally be used for "decorative" castings - and the color >can vary according to the mixture in the "alloy" - while bronze is more >likely to be used for operating parts - such as bearings or wear plates. > I do believe, again, that any Brass number plates would have been pre WW >2 - as Copper was in such short supply that Pennies and Locomotive Bells >were made of Steel. Painted backgrounds should be Black (not DGLE) on the >Freight "roundels" and Toulidine Red on the Keystones - in some of the early >color films you can see that red number plate almost before you can see the >locomotive > >Dick Ross >Cleveland > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk",