From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: Etched signs Dick, I suppose you mean the ones that were made by Custom Railway Supply? I have not seen these for a while. I quit buying the Walthers Catalogs so I do not know if or when they stopped carrying these any more. Last time I seen a set of these was at a train show. Didn't buy them because there was no station listed on there that I could use. There is an old hobby shop that used to carry them, I will check to see if they are still there. I will let you know later. I assume you mean HO scale? Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Mr. Keely's Take Date: Wed, 1 Sep 99 06:31:40 -0400 From: Jerry As promised, what follows is Mr. Keely's interpretation of what the society did or did not endorse, in regards to Mr. Strassner's operations. Walt asked me, to insure good communications, to provide him with a list of questions. His response did not include the original questions, so I am "forwarding" his reply (below) and I have inserted the original questions in "reply" format. ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 08/31 8:57 PM Received: 08/31 9:06 PM From: Walt Keely, xxxxxx@xxx.com To: jerry@dsop.com Jerry, As agreed, I will try to answer to the best of my understanding. Everyone needs to step back to allow any corrective actions to take place. The line in the sand approach will not work for anyone in resolving these issues. Please advise your readership that these are only my observations, and Dick Adams is the ONLY official voice of the PRRT&HS BOD . >Walt: > >Per your request on the telephone, the following are questions phrased to >answer the questions posed by the subscribers of the "PRR-Talk" list: > >1. Last week it was learned that Bill Strassner volunteered and was >accepted to moderate the "Q&A" page on the PRRT&HS web site. The site was >stagnant and Mr. Strassner volunteered to fill a void. Is that indeed >correct? Question #1. Bill Strassner and his group of moderators, were accepted as the foundation for expanding the PRRT&HS web site Q&A efforts. With added moderators for specific areas of expertise that they do not currently have, the potential for better service to the membership should be realized. > >2. Bill Strassner started "PRR-FAX", an Internet mailing list that, by >structure, is akin to a "bulletin board" that individual subscribers may >post messages to. It is identical in functionality to the "PRR-Talk" list >that has existed for over three years. This list is NOT conducted via the >PRRT&HS web site. However, this morning Mr. Strassner announced that the >PRRT&HS had endorsed his list as the "official" list of the PRRT&HS. Is >that correct? Question #2. The need to convert efforts from one list to another is, to my understanding, best served by keeping both lists running in parallel, with the total conversion after all concerns and problems have been addressed. To that end, the answer is yes. >3. Mr. Strassner stated that the PRRT&HS was funding his efforts. >However, the OneList server that serves his list does not charge for >serving said lists. You stated that the society would only pay for costs >when an invoice for services is received. Is that a correct statement? Question #3. No person or persons receive money from the Society without approval of the BOD, and receipts to the treasurer. That has been the policy of the Society since its formation and has not changed. Further, the Society should reimburse members for out of pocket expenses when performing services or purchasing items for the Society after approval by the BOD. >4. If Mr. Strassner's "PRR-FAX" list is the "official" list of the >PRRT&HS, would it not be appropriate that ALL members of the PRRT&HS be >allowed to subscribe? (This has not been the case.) Question #4. Never was this in question. ANY and ALL members have access to any Society projects or in this case to our website Q&A. We also believe that non members should have some form of access in the hope that the website resource would provide us with potential new members. These issues are some of the reasons for the Question #2 response. It needs further review. >5. If Mr. Strassner's "PRR-FAX" list is the "official" list of the >PRRT&HS, should non-members be allowed to subscribe if the membership is >paying for it? (There are many non-members on the list at present.) Question #5. See answer to question #4. Nothing is cast in stone and is the reason for my opening statement , that 'drawing lines in the sand' serves no purpose but to delay any changes in the Society that are needed . >These are the questions that have been asked of myself, Bill Morlitz, and >others. Your "best knowledge" answers to these questions will be >sincerely appreciated. > >If the society did indeed grant said endorsements to Mr. Strassner, but >the outcome has been different than that expected by the society, that >would be helpful to know as well. As we discussed at Lewistown on Sunday, I want you and your subscribers to have better and more timely information. Please keep in mind that my observations and responses are solely that, mine. They are not a response from the BOD and therefore NOT an official communication. If my responses are not clear and you feel that a change would be desirable, please email me before posting. Walt Keely ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- I remind all, that the purpose of my posts over the past three days has been to make known the truth, as all interested parties know it. That has now been accomplished, having posted my view, Mr. Strassner's view, and now Mr. Keely's view. I am NOT calling for a list war here. I feel that I have accomplished my purpose and as far my involvement is concerned, it is done. I, like many of you, disagree with what the society has done...mainly because there was no solicitation of input from the Internet body of the society. However, rather than voice your comments on the lists, please send snail-mail, if you deem necessary, to the society itself. Thank you for your support! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] Re: [pcl] PENNSY BAGGAGE CARS Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 07:38:06 -0400 Barry wrote: >FOLKS, >I just noticed in October MR that Bethlehem Car Works is advertising the two >promised PRR Bagg's : the B70A 'theatrical scenery express car" and the B74B >"horse express" car.. As they're priced at $59.95 list they apparently have >the brass sides that have been very well done on earlier offerings. As they >are essentially 70' cars, i don't know if they come with the milled Rivorossi >car or not, or if BCW parts are used for the floor , ends and roof. Certainly >worth a look. >Barry Peltier Barry and all, A small supply of these cars were available at the PRRT&HS convention. I purchased one of each, but have not looked closely at my kits yet so I can't really review them for you. I can tell you that they are very nice looking models based on the finished sample Theatrical Scenery car that was on display. They are typical of recent BCW cars in that they are brass sides with plastic roof and floor. Not sure about the end castings, again because I haven't unpacked mine yet. I do know that one of the cars (again not sure which) is available with either "original" or "modern" door windows. The other car is did not have this option. Very nice Middle Division decals are included. I'll look closer and review them again in more detail, but for now I would recommend them to all you PRR modelers. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:39:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Dupes & More Serious Matters From: "Jerry Britton" Please refrain from reporting dupes any more. I know they are still happening and it is quite apparent that my installation, though made up of first class hardware and software, has outgrown its less than first class 56K connection. I have Requests For Quotations out to several ISP's regarding greater bandwidth, including xDSL, Cable, and ISDN (fractional T-1 is cost prohibitive). However, I must advise you, there are two possible outcomes here: 1. Greater bandwidth which will eliminate the duping problem, but at a changeover cost (likely $1K) and greater monthly cost which I alone bear. (There are a few clients paying for hosting but it doesn't come close to offsetting all costs.) 2. Near total shutdown of DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM services. This will include "Keystone Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk", and "Reading-Talk"...plus a few other smaller lists. If the increase in bandwidth price comes back at a "reasonable" price, there is one major PRR site seeking to relocate to my server and they are willing to help financially. However, the price difference and the amount of funding are both yet to be determined. Folks, its a simple matter of cost vs. benefit. I could easily put the same $2K I am currently spending on this each year into my model railroad. I've been asked about placing my services elsewhere: I cannot offer the searchable list archive or the searchable database of diesels, electrics, or cabin car rosters any other way. Plus, there is a searchable database of passenger cars and steam locos in the works. I think these are all unique and very beneficial services offered by my site (IMHO). When the duping problem started, I suggested three workarounds for those affected: 1. Use your DELETE key. 2. Change to the Digest format. 3. Unsubscribe. It has now gotten to the point that I am being hit with one dupe report per dupe occurrance. Numerous individuals are doing this. One subscriber even sends me a vulgar message every time he receives a dupe. I can certainly understand everyone's frustrations, but do you think these things motivate me to resolve the problem? My apologies to the few who have, over the years, offered motivational and/or financial support. They are, by far, in the minority. However, please consider: 1. When I have asked for donations I have been criticized. 2. When I placed ads in the footers of list messages I have been criticized. 3. When I have made posts about products and sales from my "Merchandise Service" business -- which pays the bills -- I have been criticized. 4. After I discontinued all of the above, and things temporarily break, I am criticized. Put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself this question: "Why do I continue to do this?" The purpose of this post is not to solicit donations. In fact, I would likely return them, depending upon my forthcoming decision. I am just "venting" and telling you how things are. I am tired. I am disenchanted. I am tired of the politics. The PRR will go on without me. Perhaps my time has come. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:49:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: business cars Until the recent discussion of business cars, I had no idea the original name of car 7507 was BALTIMORE, not MARTIN W. CLEMENT. So now I'm wondering if the car at the Galveston Railroad Museum really is 7507. Can someone tell me where to look for a builders plate or other item that would verify the car really is 7507? Thanks Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:23:30 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Dupes & More Serious Matters > Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:39:39 -0400 > Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Dupes & More Serious Matters > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" , > "Reading-Talk LIST" > , > "Conrail-Talk LIST" > 1. When I have asked for donations I have been criticized. > > 2. When I placed ads in the footers of list messages I have been criticized. > > 3. When I have made posts about products and sales from my "Merchandise > Service" business -- which pays the bills -- I have been criticized. > > 4. After I discontinued all of the above, and things temporarily break, I am > criticized. > > Put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself this question: "Why do I continue > to do this?" Because you like being beat up? I know that I was critical of at least one item in the list above, but I also know how to unsubscribe and did from the PRR list for awhile. :-) I find the duplicates to be slightly irritating, but I also know where my key is. I reply to this because I want to ask if you are sure that it is your equipment and software that is at fault or is there a possibility that the problem has some external cause? I run a small local list myself and a series of profane messages would soon get the sender removed from the list permanently. I also know that keeping the subscription list up and avoiding duplicates to specific individuals can be a problem, but I have never had a problem like this one. For the record, I support your efforts and you have the right to do whatever it takes to keep it going if you want to. In the event that I really object, I can leave. :-) :-) Roger Roger Hensley 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Coo Day Tah -- or, the search for accuracy in all things Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:36:30 -0400 (EDT) For the record, in case anyone cares, it's spelled: coup d'etat Now, the "e" in "etat" has an accent mark on it which I cannot reproduce reliably because of the lame-brained way most of youz allz software works, so imagine an accent mark from northeast to southwest. Coup = blow, hit d' = shortened (elised) form of de = of, though sometimes, as here, best translated as to Etat = state, as in the state. Initial e-accent aigu very frequently is found in words that, in the original Latin, contained an "s" immediately after the e -- thus, French etat comes from the Latin root estat- etc. Which has passed into English of its own right as the word "estate". It's pronounced, roughly, COO dayTAH. But of course, I only have 7 years of formal study of French, not 60, so don't anyone believe what I'm writing here. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:35:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Xenia and Real Quick, The last through freight Dayton-Columbus ran through Xenia about midnight Jan. 10, 1097. Rail train came through the next day and pulled the trails from the overpass to the Panhandle depot and the old NYC/Big 4 diamonds at London. Dayton and Western was Abandoned by Conrail circa 1980-1982 because I wrote stories about it for Dayton Daily News in 1979-1980. Rails from Dodson to the Richmond & Miami at New Paris were pulled by 19 84. CSX had trackage rights on the D&W for its Dayton & Union line through Greenville to Union City. It kept the D&W open from Dayton through Dodson (1.4 miles north of Brookville) where the D&W and D&U parted ways. The D&W west of the southern edge of Trotwood was abandoned in the early 90s. It's open from the NS/CSX mains at the west end of the Great Miami River bridge in Dayton to Trotwood, about 5 miles, for local switching. Hope this answers the question. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 11:45:23 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Xenia LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > Real Quick, The last through freight Dayton-Columbus ran through Xenia about > midnight Jan. 10, 1097. -- Tom, I had no idea how advanced a civilization the pre-Columbian Indians had out there in Ohio. That was only some 30 years after the Norman invasion of England!! ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 11:45:23 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Xenia LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > Real Quick, The last through freight Dayton-Columbus ran through Xenia about > midnight Jan. 10, 1097. -- Tom, I had no idea how advanced a civilization the pre-Columbian Indians had out there in Ohio. That was only some 30 years after the Norman invasion of England!! ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 12:46:21 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Xenia and Anyone that could give me a bibliograhical citation (and if it exists in public domain) for a corporate history of Lines West would earn a chit for one free beer. Thanks. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 14:20:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Bethlehem Car Works Cars From: "Jerry Britton" The new Bethlehem Car Works cars are now available in the "Merchandise Service" eStore. There are two versions of the B70A Scenery Car (original vs. modern doors) and one version of the B70B Horse Car. These kits feature brass sides and plastic roof and ends. Decals are included with a full range of car numbers. The kits are discounted. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:15:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between Touche, Andy Er, Last Conrail through freight passed through Xenia, Ohio, Jan. 10, 1987 ending 142 years of railroading in central Greene County, Ohio. Tom V. In a message dated 9/1/99 11:46:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << Tom, I had no idea how advanced a civilization the pre-Columbian Indians had out there in Ohio. That was only some 30 years after the Norman invasion of England!! ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:27:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Columbus Division (Panhandle between In a message dated 9/1/99 12:53:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << Anyone that could give me a bibliographical citation (and if it exists in public domain) for a corporate history of Lines West would earn a chit for one free beer. Thanks. Vagel Keller >> There's none yet though I know of several people working on histories of various components, myself included. If anyone's gonna write it, I'll lay my money on Chris Baer at the Hagley Museum in Wilmington, DE. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:49:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] LWFF 2000 only a year away (was: Convention News - Vagel, The next Lines West Fans Fest will be in the fall of 2000. I'm leaning toward a Columbus location and early October date. Tom V. In a message dated 8/30/99 3:20:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << > Announced at the convention was that the next three conventions will be held > at the Radison Penn Harris in Camp Hill, Pa. ... > ... The society signed a three-year contract. The facility is first rate as > far as set-up goes. Well, at least that's fairly centrally located ... IF you're a resident Pennsylvanian. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:59:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter In a message dated 8/30/99 5:32:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << and the potential to be recognized by belonging to both your geographically local chapter AND the cyber chapter. How many PRRT&HS-member PRR-Talk subscribers are members of their local chapter? Mea Culpa! >> And just where is the Geographically convenient chapter in proximity to Xenia? Most Pennsy fans hereabouts gave up on thePRRT&HS because of the perceived Lines East bias. Lines West Fans Fest 2K will be somewhere in Central Ohio in the fall of 2000. I'd like a Columbus site and to have at least on e event in the Panhandle depot on the Little Miami & Columbus & Xenia RR in London, Ohio, now used as a party hallll ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:50:17 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Lines West reference book vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: > Anyone that could give me a bibliograhical citation (and if it exists > in public domain) for a corporate history of Lines West would earn a > chit for one free beer. Thanks. > Vagel Keller Greetings to Vagel and the list: The grand-daddy of all Lines West corporate histories is Samuel H. Church's 15-volume epic. It is titled Corporate History of the Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh, Comprising Charters, Mortgages, Decrees, Deeds, Leases, Agreements, Ordinances, and Other Papers, with Descriptive Text. Baltimore, Friedenwald Co., printer, 1898-1927, Vols. 1-15 plus "13 index." Church was assistant secretary of the Pennsylvania Company (not PRR). Exhaustive would be the best way to describe both this editorial product and the effort needed to use it. Want to know which way the town council of New Brighton voted on a proposed ordinance that affected the railroad, and whether the council overrode the burgess's veto? It's there. Want to know the terms of an agreement whereby PFtW&C, LS&MS and CRI&P agreed to give Pere Marquette access to Englewood Union Station? It's there. How many wires PRR got for its own use when a telegraph company wanted to string commercial lines on the company's poles along the Waynesburg & Washington RR? When that license went into effect and when it was terminated? You get the idea. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com 2 Tim.2:1-2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] ETCHED MODEL TOWER AND DEPOT SIGNS Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:40:29 -0700 Hello... Does anybody out there have an address, URL or whatever for Doug Jones' Schuchill Division? Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: VVA249@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:56 PM Subject: [PRR] ETCHED MODEL TOWER AND DEPOT SIGNS > Are the model etched Tower and Depot signs still availible and from whom? >It's NOT Doug Jones' Schuchill Division - he does Loco Numbers; builder's >plates; Trust Plates and tender plates >Dick Ross >Cleveland > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:28:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES Folks, Does anyone know the nanes and corresponding numbers of Pennsy's B74B horse express cars? I've seen it somewhere but Lord knows where and can't locate anything now. Bethlehem's new cars are a real break, even if they'll reduce my prized Walthers model to background status. But that's ok, a couple of new kits will enable me to add another special to a branch that mostly sees race track trains anyway, and a little freight service. Now to get busy on that grandstand flat and paddock garden. Doo Dah, Doo Dah! Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 23:06:57 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES Source: Pennsy Journal Vol III No. 2 Theatrical Scenery Cars 6055 Patti 6056 Nordica re: Benjamin Franklin 6057 Caruso 6058 Jenny Lind 6059 Macbeth 6060 Falstaff 6061 Romeo 6062 Juliet 6063 Hamlet 6064 Cordelia 6065 Bob Acres 6066 Brutus 6067 Caesar 6068 Richelieu 6069 Ophelia 6070 Camille 6071 Desdemona 6072 Richard III 6073 Othello 6074 James A. Herne 6075 Denman Thompson 6076 Clyde Fitch 6077 Shakespeare 6078 Robin Hood 6079 DeKoven 6080 Gounod 6081 Stauss 6082 Wagner 6083 Victor Herbert 6084 Mozart 6085 Verdi 6086 Sullivan 6087 Lohengrin 6088 Aida 6089 Faust 6090 Tannhauser 6091 Carmen 6092 Pinafore 6093 Mikado 6094 Edwin Booth 6095 James K. Hackett 6096 Edwin Forrest 6097 Nat Goodwin 6098 John Drew 6099 Joseph Jefferson Horse Cars B74A 5800 Meadow Brook Club 5801 Blue Bonnets 5802 Beulah Park 5803 Cumberland 5804 Narragansett Racing Association 5805 Minton Hickory Stable 5806 Dorval 5807 Brookmeade Stable 5808 Dade Park 5809 Thormcliffe 5810 Fort Erie 5811 Horsemen's Transportation Association 5812 Kenilworth 5813 Mount Royal 5814 Bainbridge Park 5815 Greenwich Stude 5816 Maple Heights 5817 United States Polo Association 5818 Thistledown 5819 Mapleton Stud B74B 5820 Aqueduct 5821 Aurora 5822 Arlington Park 5823 Belmont Park 5824 Bowie 5825 Churchill Downs 5826 Empire City 5827 Fairmont Park 5828 Harve de Grace 5829 Hawthorne 5830 Hialeah 5831 Jamaica 5832 Jefferson Park 5833 Kentucky Association 5834 Laurel 5835 Latonia 5836 Lincoln Fields 5837 Oriental Park 5838 Pimlico 5839 Raceland 5840 Saratoga Springs 5841 Fair Grounds 5842 Tia Juana 5843 Washington Park 5844 Woodshire 5845 Wilson-Salmon Stable 5846 Idle Hour Stock Farm 5847 Erdenheim Farm 5848 Coldstream Stud 5849 Glen Riddle Farm 5850 Sun Briar Farm 5851 Newtondale Stable 5852 3D Stock Farm 5853 Fair Stable 5854 Wheatly Stable 5855 Audley Farm 5856 Foxcatcher Farms 5857 Himyar Stud 5858 Rancocas Stable 5859 Greentree Stable 5860 Seagram Stable 5861 Hanover Farms 5862 Whitney Stable 5863 Buxton-Loucheim Stable 5864 Hollyrood Farms 5865 Castleton Farm 5866 Tanglewood Farm 5867 Arden Homestead Stud 5868 Calumet Farm 5869 Elmendorf Farm There is a note at the bottom of the list: Note that the numbering of B74A was changed from 5551-5555, 5561-5565, and 5766-5775 to 5800-5819 at the time the names were applied. It did not state when the naming took place. This list belongs on someones website. One final caveat: There is an undated photo of #5832, Metropolitan Jockey Club, on the same page as the list. The author states cars carried different names during their lifetime. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 00:27:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] P5 electrics question Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > On 29 Aug, Dan Cupper wrote: > > > Withers Publishing has in the near-final stages of production a > > softcover Marty Zak B&W pictorial along the lines of the Jack Hahn > > series (and it does include a few Jack Hahn photos) that covers GG1s, > > the various P5 types, the several E-oddball ignitrons, and the E44s. It > > should be out this fall. > > You *will* keep us posted, won't you? > > Dennis Dennis: I'm editing the introduction now. Have already made two editing passes through all captions. We're talking multiple weeks now till it's ready, not multiple months. Dan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 00:27:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] P5 electrics question Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > On 29 Aug, Dan Cupper wrote: > > > Withers Publishing has in the near-final stages of production a > > softcover Marty Zak B&W pictorial along the lines of the Jack Hahn > > series (and it does include a few Jack Hahn photos) that covers GG1s, > > the various P5 types, the several E-oddball ignitrons, and the E44s. It > > should be out this fall. > > You *will* keep us posted, won't you? > > Dennis Dennis: I'm editing the introduction now. Have already made two editing passes through all captions. We're talking multiple weeks now till it's ready, not multiple months. Dan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:29:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Accents, et al. (was: Coo Day Tah) For use whenever you might need an accented or other letter: if the following collection appears with accents, umlauts, etc. all in place, then you should save this note as a text file. On the rare occasion when you need one of the characters, open the file and cut and paste that single character into your outgoing e-mail or whatever. I find that this method is a lot quicker than opening a font display and determining the multistroke sequence necessary to cull the character out of the font. Your mileage may vary, void where prohibited. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL Characters follow: ============= Áá Ââ Àà Ää Åå Ãã Ææ ª ç ð é Êê Èè Ëë í Îî Ìì Ïï ñ ó Ôô Òò Õõ Öö Øø º þ ú Ûû Ùù Üü ý ÿ ® ¼½¾ ¿¡ «» ¦ ¢¥ ¤µ¯´ ±×÷ ¶§¸°¨·¹²³| -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL (never studied French, other than for reading knowledge, but I do speak excellent EDL) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:29:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Peter Barton (was: Altoona) Each weekday morning at 5:58 on WFMT here in Chicago, the nighttime announcer, Peter Vandegraff, turns over to the morning show announcer, Carl Grapentine---the latter's first words are always: "Thank you, Peter". Those words start my day: and then this morning's e-mail gave me word of your moving on from Altoona, and my first thought was: Thank you, Peter. As an-almost annual visitor to Altoona for the Penn State railroad history symposia over the past many years, I have seen your visions become useful realities. You're leaving quite a legacy, and I am glad to have had a chance to meet its chief chef (even if a weekend at a time). Best wishes to you in Boston. -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES Date: Thu, 2 Sep 99 06:23:10 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/1/99 10:28 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: >Does anyone know the nanes and corresponding numbers of Pennsy's B74B horse >express cars? I've seen it somewhere but Lord knows where and can't locate >anything now. Bethlehem's new cars are a real break, even if they'll reduce >my prized Walthers model to background status. But that's ok, a couple of >new >kits will enable me to add another special to a branch that mostly sees race >track trains anyway, and a little freight service. Now to get busy on that >grandstand flat and paddock garden. Doo Dah, Doo Dah! The kits come with decals. Supposedly all numbers are included. Not sure about names. Several of the car names appear in the PRRT&HS painting guide. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:42:25 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > Does anyone know the nanes and corresponding numbers of Pennsy's B74B horse > express cars? I've seen it somewhere but Lord knows where and can't locate > anything now. Bethlehem's new cars are a real break, even if they'll reduce > my prized Walthers model to background status. But that's ok, a couple of new > kits will enable me to add another special to a branch that mostly sees race > track trains anyway, and a little freight service. Now to get busy on that > grandstand flat and paddock garden. Doo Dah, Doo Dah! > Thanks, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Barry, Would that be Garden State or Atlantic City?? or some other like Laurel? I'd say Pimlico was a B&O place. Tom Mahon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] A night at Enola January 12, 1963 (3PM to 11 PM) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:31:38 -0400 As most of you know, I was the afternoon Asst. Roundhouse Foreman at Enola during the 1962-1963 time frame at the time that the P-5s were being maintained through cannobalization and the E-44s were being delivered. I found a sheet the other day that chronicles the locomotive eastbound dispatchments during the 8 hour period for Saturday, January 12, 1963, the day 4449 made its first eastbound trip. I thought I would share the data with you to get a feel for how busy the Pennsy was east of Enola at that time. Train Destination Time Ordered Locomotive Numbers SW-10 Jersey City 3:00 PM 4422 Coal Ex. S. Amboy 3:10 PM 4875-4821-4843 Jet-2 Morrisville 3:25 PM 4412 B-2 Pot. Yard 3:40 PM 4809-4846 TT-2 Jersey City 6:20 PM 4867-4866 Adv. B-8 Baltimore 6:40 PM 4414-4402 SP-8 S. Phila. 6:50 PM 4411-4400 TT-4 Jersey City 6:55 PM 4420 NF-6 Jersey City 7:05 PM 4410 BNY-16 Jersey City 7:10 PM 4426-4417-4449 B-6 Pot. Yard 7:20 PM 4819-4839 CE-4 Thurlow 7:50 PM 4832-4848 DJ-2 Jersey City 7:55 PM 4448-4405 CG-2 Jersey City 8:10 PM 4836-4837 ED-4 Camden 8:25 PM 4826-4803 Gon. Ex. Baltimore 8:40 PM 4827 TT-6 Camden 8:55 PM 4439 ET-2 S. Amboy 9:15 PM 4756-4762 TH-2/4 Thurlow 10:20 PM 4432-4413 B-8 Baltimore 10:25 PM 4854 Totals 17 E-44, 17 GG-1, 2 P-5a SW-10 was from St. Louis NF-6 was "no feed" livestock DJ-2 was called the "Dixie Jet" TT-4 was from St. Louis BNY-16 was the "Beany" and was autoparts from Buffalo to Metuchin CG-2 was Chicago to Greenville car floats SP-8 was produce from California via Chicago to S. Philadelphia (very hot train) Visit my Pennsy Electrics page at http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/bvpr.htm Bill V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:29:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Chapter, PRRT&HS From: "Jerry Britton" The Pittsburgh Chapter of the PRRT&HS now has a web site. The URL is http://prrths-pc.pennsyrr.com The Northern Central Chapter's URL is http://prrths-ncc.pennsyrr.com It link is incorrect on the PRRT&HS site and I have been unsuccessful in getting it changed. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:29:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Chapter, PRRT&HS From: "Jerry Britton" The Pittsburgh Chapter of the PRRT&HS now has a web site. The URL is http://prrths-pc.pennsyrr.com The Northern Central Chapter's URL is http://prrths-ncc.pennsyrr.com It link is incorrect on the PRRT&HS site and I have been unsuccessful in getting it changed. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] Converse, Indiana Station Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:28:42 -0400 PRR Gize: I have just been informed that the PRR Converse, Indiana station is being put on hte actioning block today. The owner, which was using as an antique shop up until now, is asking about $55,000 along with the property. The are some property tax incentives since it is registered as a historic landmark. The building is in great condition and can be used as a home, office, business, etc. Converse is located on the Panhandle just west of Marion but east of Logansport. What makes this station stand out is its architecture. First, it is made from masonry brick and limestone (I think); it is not a wooden frame structure. Second, the window frames are unique in that the bottom corners are squared off but the top corners are rounded off. This really accents the entire structure. Firthermore, Converse was, and still is a small, sleepy farming community of less than 1,000. Generally speaking, these smaller communities warranted wooden frame structures with conventional architectural features. There were always exceptions and Converse is one of those.Given its architecture and its location, Converse Station is a true gem in the middle of cornfields. I believe that passenger service on this portion of the Panhandle ended early (circa 1953) but I am not sure of the exact date. This creates even more of a mystery on how and why Converse Station managaed to escape the wrecking ball in the PRR/PC/ CR areas.One could say that it was used by the MW dept. but with Marion just east of Conversee along with PRR Goodman Yard (that serves the auto plants) it would make more sense for the MW to be stationed in Marion. If anyone else has infromation on this station, please jump in! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:09:02 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chapters, Lines West The recent post in re lack of geographically close PRRTHS chapters to residents of Pennsy Lines West territory prompted a look at the society's chapter info web page. Other than DehTWAH (a nod to listers with six or more years of formal French training), E. Mich, and N. Ohio, there are none listed west of Pgh ... excepting Arizona. There should be at least 10 midwestern society members who live outside the autobelt territory of the Pennsy. Are you all that spread out that there are 10 folks within a 60-70 mile radius? Even then, given the technology, intercommunications wouldn't be too tough. Why not start a Panhandle Chapter, or a Ft. Wayne Chapter, or a soutern Ohio/Eastern Indianna Chapter. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:48:11 -0400 Haven't been on the list in a while so I apologize if this question has been recently asked. I assume that the front number plate the L1 was cast in brass or bronze. Therefore I would expect the raised rim and numbers to have a metallic sheen to them when seen in color photos. However, all to often the rim and numbers seen to be almost yellow (and a very bright yellow in some cases). Can anyone tell me if I'm imagining things. Were these plates sometimes trimmed in yellow paint? Thanks, Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:11:51 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West reference book-add Dan Cupper wrote: > The grand-daddy of all Lines West corporate histories is Samuel H. > Church's 15-volume epic. It is titled Corporate History of the > Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh, Comprising Charters, Mortgages, > Decrees, Deeds, Leases, Agreements, Ordinances, and Other Papers, with > Descriptive Text. Baltimore, Friedenwald Co., printer, 1898-1927, Vols. > 1-15 plus "13 index." Church was assistant secretary of the Pennsylvania > Company (not PRR). To Dan's reference let me add that anyone researching the Ft. wayne also should see the earlier coporate history of that company published in 1875 by the Penna Co. It contains a number of documents and official correspondence that Church ignored, presumably because it was in this volume. Official title: "Corporate History of the PFW&C Ry Co." printed in Pittsburgh by Stevenson & Foster. Also, it should be pointed out in fairness that much of this stuff is difficult to find. The Church collection was initially printed as a 12 volume set, and that is often all you'll find when you do locate it--just the first 12 volumes. Fortunately for us, Church added to three additional volumes between 1910 and 1927 as Lines West evolved and expanded. There are two volume 13's, the first an index to the earlier 12. Somehow the compiler or the publisher overlooked the index when issuing the next full volume--it came later, after the first 12 and is itself hard to find. My first look came at the Indiana State Library in Indianapolis, but they had only the first three volumes. My local reference librarian--who never once complained despite the flood of requests she got from me over the years--found a set of twelve through interlibrary loan at Indiana University of Pa. I also know of a set of 12 at UofI in Urbana, Ill., and I believe there is a set available somewhere around Pittsburgh. The only full 15-volume set I have found is at the Hagley (God bless you, Chris Baer). Incidentally, Mr Church, a fascinating character in his own right apart from the railroad, eventually attained the position of Secretary of the Penna Lines West of Pgh. Happy reading, Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:13:17 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Converse, Indiana Station-add Andrews, Ted wrote: > PRR Gize: > > I have just been informed that the PRR Converse, Indiana station is being > put on hte actioning block today. Converse is located on the Panhandle just > west of Marion but east of > Logansport. Converse was, and still is a small, sleepy farming community of > less than 1,000. Generally speaking, these smaller communities warranted > wooden frame structures with conventional architectural features. There were > always exceptions and Converse is one of those.Given its architecture and > its location, Converse Station is a true gem in the middle of cornfields. One possible reason for Converse's importance was that it was also the eastern terminus of the Chicago, Indiana & Eastern, a gas-belt line which extended to Muncie. The CI&E was constructed gradually in the mid-1890s, and was finally completed to Muncie in 1899. After going through several financial convulsions, the contractor sold the 40-mile road the PRR in 1907. [Church, 13:215-16] The CI&E was a perennial loser, so the PRR replaced the line with trackage rights over the Big Four from Anderson to Muncie and abandoned the line west of Matthews in 1933. This stub survived until 1973 as the "Muncie Yard Running Track." Passenger service initially began under PRR auspices with a through Pullman between Muncie and Chicago, but this service did not last long. The branch mainly hosted the usual pair of locals until all passenger service was discontinued sometime in the mid-1920s. In any event, Converse was where the locals met main line Pan Handle trains, and may have been where the Pullmans were set out, thus accounting for the fairly substantial station. According to Francis Parker ["Indiana RR Depots: A Threatoned Heritage" p54], the Converse station was constructed in 1911, based on a design by Price & McLanahan--a well-known architectural firm which was also responsible for PRR stations in Ridgeville and Fort Wayne. > I believe that passenger service on this portion of the Panhandle ended > early (circa 1953) but I am not sure of the exact date. Passenger service over this portion of the Pan Handle was discontinued at the end of 1958, however Converse itself probably lost its last train much earlier. > This creates even > more of a mystery on how and why Converse Station managaed to escape the > wrecking ball in the PRR/PC/ CR areas. I know when I visited in the late 1980s the station was already in private hands. In fact, although the structure was only in fair condition, whoever owned it was making an attempt to restore it. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:35:37 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Converse, Indiana Station-add-correction Richard Wallis wrote: > One possible reason for Converse's importance was that it was also the eastern > terminus of the Chicago, Indiana & Eastern, And he wrote that erroneously. Converse was, as any fool could see by consulting a map, the western terminus of the CI&E--any fool, that is, except me. Sorry. I'll spend the next few hours in the basement as punishment Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:45:39 -0400 Kris, The number plates were painted yellow and black. There is no bare metal on them. Saw a whole bunch at the Altoona model railroad club last week. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:27:43 -0400 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: [PRR] ETCHED MODEL TOWER AND DEPOT SIGNS At 05:40 PM 9/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hello... >Does anybody out there have an address, URL or whatever for Doug Jones' >Schuchill Division? >Bill Daniels Bill, The address on his card I picked up in Altoona is: Schuylkill Division Doug Jones 9835 Singleton Drive Bethesda, MD 20817-2300 Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Enola Electric Pits 1939 and 1963 Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:23:04 -0400 A few months ago we got into a lively discussion about stokers and I mentioned that Enola kept an M1 fired up next to the electric loco departure track in case a crew would complain about the hard riding and cold cabbed P-5s. Well here is a photo of that M-1 taken in 1939 by Chick Siebert of Camp Hill. http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr026.htm And here is a photo taken by yours truly at the same location in January 1963 of course with the diesel shop where the M-1 was sitting. At the right of the photo you can see the old car shop and power plant. http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr027.htm Thanks for listening. Bill V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:38:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] RPM web page & Bowser L-1 Hi Pennsy fans, This is an invitation to browse over to the RPM web page annd take a look at what I feel to be an excellent effort to more accurately depict a PRR L-1. The modeler involved contacted our own Greg Martin for feedback and while viewing the workmanship Greg felt it deserved wider exposure so other could see what could be done with a Bowser loco kit. Have a look see at: http://www.rpmrail.org The model is shown under construction under at the bottom of the index page. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Maddox" Subject: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:58:40 -0400 I have to travel from Phila to Minneapolis next summer and I was hoping to take the train and get to see Horseshoe Curve. Has anyone done this trip? Any hints, alternatives? Does anyone know of a travel agent that is good with Amtrak? By looking at the schedule, it seems that the Three Rivers is on the curve during daylight on the return trip. My biggest problem is that there is no sleeping car on that train and it's the longest leg of the trip. TIA, Doug maddoxdy@enter.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: [PRR] Modeling an L1 Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:12:13 -0400 Has any one ever added brake shoes to a Bowser L1 Mikado? If so how did the process go? Would you please pass on any specifics as to what detail parts you used, etc. Thanks, kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:22:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Update on Miracle Castings Erie-built B units From: "Jerry Britton" Just (finally) got an update from Miracle Castings on their long anticipated FM Erie-built B units... After many delays, they are hopeful that they will begin shipping by late next week. Good news for the many folks who have had these on backorder since early spring! It will likely take a few weeks for stock to become available (as dealers fill their backorders). The other PRR products -- BP20 Passenger Sharks and Erie-built A units -- remain readily available. See your local dealer or order through my eStore by credit card. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:26:16 EDT Yes. Because brass, or bronze, required polishing to remove tarnish (ask any soldier), the raised numbers and borders were usually painted a bright yellow, and not just one the Pennsy, but on most roads. This practice became nearly standard when brass was in limited supply during WW2, and castings were steel. These steel castings were similarly painted. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from down near C&O Milepost FM Zero. ______________________________________________________ >I assume that the front number plate the L1 was cast in brass or bronze. >Therefore I would expect the raised rim and numbers to have a metallic >sheen >to them when seen in color photos. However, all to often the rim and >numbers seen to be almost yellow (and a very bright yellow in some cases). >Can anyone tell me if I'm imagining things. Were these plates sometimes >trimmed in yellow paint? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:37:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak From: "Jerry Britton" >From: "Doug Maddox" >To: "PRR Talk" >Subject: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak >Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 2:58 PM > > I have to travel from Phila to Minneapolis next summer and I was hoping to > take the train and get to see Horseshoe Curve. Has anyone done this trip? > Any hints, alternatives? Does anyone know of a travel agent that is good > with Amtrak? > > By looking at the schedule, it seems that the Three Rivers is on the curve > during daylight on the return trip. My biggest problem is that there is no > sleeping car on that train and it's the longest leg of the trip. My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. The best solution for riding around the Curve, IMHO, is to go to RailFest. You ride from Altoona to Gallitzen and back, thus traversing the Curve twice on a one-hour trip...and it's during the day! My comment on visiting the Curve is rooted in the fact that I've been there several times and rarely see more than a train or two. Traffic isn't what it used to be. Seeing is believing, however, and helps put things in perspective when reading about the Curve and what it meant to the railroad. Also, a "must see" is Digital Image Works video on "Conrail Horseshoe Curve Helpers". You can get a copy through DIW at http://www.digitalimageworks.com or through "Merchandise Service" at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:59:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Andy Cich >To: PRR Mailing List >Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES >Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 12:06 AM > > This list belongs on someones website. It will appear on "Keystone Crossings" shortly. Does anyone know how late (year), in general, horse cars were still in use? What about the scenery cars? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:09:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak In a message dated 9/2/99 3:00:45 PM EST, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. >> Perhaps, but when "Trains" did an issue on "The Holy Places of Railroading" Horseshoe Curve was on the cover...... Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:59:20 -0400 When I was at Penn Coach Yard in Philly in 1963 (April) I took pictures of two of them right out of Altoona's REX shop numbered 801 and 802 painted bright green and lettered Railway EXpress. That was the last time I saw a horse car in service on the PRR. If I can find a copy of the print I will get it up on the web for you. I have had lots of calls from people who want copies of the photo but I can't find the negative either. BUT THEY EXIST! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES >>From: Andy Cich >>To: PRR Mailing List >>Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES >>Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 12:06 AM >> > >> This list belongs on someones website. > >It will appear on "Keystone Crossings" shortly. > >Does anyone know how late (year), in general, horse cars were still in use? > >What about the scenery cars? >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: RE: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:10:51 -0400 The Three Rivers now runs with refurbished Heritage sleepers. This service doesnt appear on the Amtrak website but you should be able to book a room by calling Amtrak. When my father and I have visited the curve we where rewarded with three-five trains an hour, headlight to headlight meets, and lots of horn action. I've been twice. We once took the westbound Three Rivers over the curve, the train is long you can see both ends while taking the curve. I think its worth the ride, you will also pass a whole bunch of train action(or has that changed with the NS presence?). -Josh Trower ---------- From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 3:37 PM To: maddoxdy@enter.net; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak >From: "Doug Maddox" >To: "PRR Talk" >Subject: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak >Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 2:58 PM > > I have to travel from Phila to Minneapolis next summer and I was hoping to > take the train and get to see Horseshoe Curve. Has anyone done this trip? > Any hints, alternatives? Does anyone know of a travel agent that is good > with Amtrak? > > By looking at the schedule, it seems that the Three Rivers is on the curve > during daylight on the return trip. My biggest problem is that there is no > sleeping car on that train and it's the longest leg of the trip. My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. The best solution for riding around the Curve, IMHO, is to go to RailFest. You ride from Altoona to Gallitzen and back, thus traversing the Curve twice on a one-hour trip...and it's during the day! My comment on visiting the Curve is rooted in the fact that I've been there several times and rarely see more than a train or two. Traffic isn't what it used to be. Seeing is believing, however, and helps put things in perspective when reading about the Curve and what it meant to the railroad. Also, a "must see" is Digital Image Works video on "Conrail Horseshoe Curve Helpers". You can get a copy through DIW at http://www.digitalimageworks.com or through "Merchandise Service" at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:31:02 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak I have heard the same about traffic levels on the Curve as well...but when I was there in the Spring of 1998 it was a hopping place. I think...if my memory serves me correctly I saw 8 trains in the 2.5 hours I was there. Really was interesting for this man raised around flat railroading (Buffalo NY) to see heavy tonnage and lots of it. But the real kicker was later that evening while my cousins took me to SLOPE and the overpass there that I saw ALOT of trains. I stayed at SLOPE from about 9pm til well after midnight taking it all in. The next morning was busy as well. Just my .02 On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Jerry Britton wrote: >>From: "Doug Maddox" >>To: "PRR Talk" >>Subject: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak >>Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 2:58 PM >> > >> I have to travel from Phila to Minneapolis next summer and I was hoping to >> take the train and get to see Horseshoe Curve. Has anyone done this trip? >> Any hints, alternatives? Does anyone know of a travel agent that is good >> with Amtrak? >> >> By looking at the schedule, it seems that the Three Rivers is on the curve >> during daylight on the return trip. My biggest problem is that there is no >> sleeping car on that train and it's the longest leg of the trip. > >My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip >around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve >is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. > >The best solution for riding around the Curve, IMHO, is to go to RailFest. >You ride from Altoona to Gallitzen and back, thus traversing the Curve twice >on a one-hour trip...and it's during the day! > >My comment on visiting the Curve is rooted in the fact that I've been there >several times and rarely see more than a train or two. Traffic isn't what it >used to be. Seeing is believing, however, and helps put things in >perspective when reading about the Curve and what it meant to the railroad. > >Also, a "must see" is Digital Image Works video on "Conrail Horseshoe Curve >Helpers". You can get a copy through DIW at http://www.digitalimageworks.com >or through "Merchandise Service" at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:31:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak From: "Doug and Marianne" I will beg to differ about Horseshoe Curve. First of all, to Doug Maddox, the Three Rivers does carry a sleeping car, but westbound it passes the Curve around 8:30 pm (when it is on-time, which has not been often lately). I believe that the Pennsylvanian (train 43) is also carrying a sleeper now, although it is not indicated in the printed schedule (it carries Heritage sleepers). It passes the Curve in mid afternoon. The first time I ever saw the Curve was at night time on the Broadway Limited from an open dutch door. Its quite a view at night with the lights of the train windows arching around you. Check with Amtrak or there are several travel agents that specialize in train travel - they usually advertise in magazines such as TRAINS. As for Jerry's opinion of Horseshoe Curve, I still think that this is one of the greatest railroad sights anywhere. Jerry has not had the good fortune to be there with much traffic, but the traffic does tend to come in bunches and I have seen double meets (occasionally triple meets) on most of the occasions that I have visited. Last week while attending the convention, the westbound Pennsylvanian passed the Curve at the same time as an eastbound coal drag. I'm sure that a few of the passengers were disappointed to have the view blocked by the solid string of hoppers. ---------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES (and dates) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:42:00 -0400 Correction. Make that April of 1962, not 63.. I was in Enola in April of 63. Memory division was on hold when I wrote that memo. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer To: Jerry Britton ; PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES >When I was at Penn Coach Yard in Philly in 1963 (April) I took pictures of >two of them right out of Altoona's REX shop numbered 801 and 802 painted >bright green and lettered Railway EXpress. That was the last time I saw a >horse car in service on the PRR. > >If I can find a copy of the print I will get it up on the web for you. I >have had lots of calls from people who want copies of the photo but I can't >find the negative either. BUT THEY EXIST! > >Bill V. >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 4:06 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NAMES > > >>>From: Andy Cich >>>To: PRR Mailing List >>>Subject: Re: [PRR] HORSE CAR NANES >>>Date: Thu, Sep 2, 1999, 12:06 AM >>> >> >>> This list belongs on someones website. >> >>It will appear on "Keystone Crossings" shortly. >> >>Does anyone know how late (year), in general, horse cars were still in use? >> >>What about the scenery cars? >>--------------------------------------------------------- >>Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >>"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" >> http://kc.pennsyrr.com >>"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products >> http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:35:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Horse and scenery car dates (was HORSE CAR NAMES) In a message dated 9/2/1999 3:20:02 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Does anyone know how late (year), in general, horse cars were still in use? >> Only one piece of the puzzle, but 20 B74Bs were sold to REA in 1961-62. Don;t know if they continued in horse as well as general express service. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:41:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak In a message dated 9/2/1999 3:21:10 PM Central Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << << My two cents, and I'll probably take a beating for it, but I think the trip around the Curve is overhyped. For that matter, I think visiting the Curve is overrated, but everyone should go there at least once. >> Perhaps, but when "Trains" did an issue on "The Holy Places of Railroading" Horseshoe Curve was on the cover...... >> Trip around the curve is rather short, but a trip to the curve is a different story for us flatlanders. It only takes one train with turbochargers screaming upgrade to make it seem a worthwhile visit. And a mineral train downgrade with retainers set and dynamics throwing smoke ain't bad, either. First train I witnessed had two GE widenoses hauling a Mail upgrade without helpers--spectacular, but maybe not as impressive to those who live in the mountains all the time. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:50:20 -0400 Hi All! Just wanted to throw a little input into the group about this subject. Please note that these are my PERSONAL views, and not those of Miracle Castings Inc. I'd use my personal e-mail to post, but I'm not registered under it, only under the company's e-mail. In his message, Jerry said: "1. When I have asked for donations I have been criticized. 2. When I placed ads in the footers of list messages I have been criticized. 3. When I have made posts about products and sales from my "Merchandise Service" business -- which pays the bills -- I have been criticized. 4. After I discontinued all of the above, and things temporarily break, I am criticized." I run a list on Onelist.com which has about 430 members. I don't own or operate the servers, pay any monthly charges for access, net connections, upgrades of software, etc. Onelist does all the maintenance, spends all the time and all the money to keep my list going. And yet, I OWN THE LIST. I can do WHATEVER I WANT, including advertising on my list and / or web pages, allowing sponsors, plug my own product if I want to, and generally act in a completely autocratic manner. If I don't like a subscriber for any reason, I can arbitrarily cut them off, and there's nothing they can do about it! Therefore I say to Jerry: YOU pay for ALL of the charges incurred in operating this list. YOU spend all the time maintaining the servers, troubleshooting, etc. Therefore if you feel you want to advertise in the list, post ads on the web pages, and otherwise try to recover the costs of operating this list, I feel that the subscribers on the list have absolutely no right whatsoever to criticize you for that. If they don't like it, they can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I wouldn't put up with that in my list, and I haven't invested a cent! I make it quite clear to my subscribers what is acceptable to ME, and they must abide by that or unsubscribe (or I'll do it for them). It's YOUR list, Jerry, in every conceivable way. I suggest that you tell us how it's going to be, and anyone who doesn't like it can take a hike. Pat Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Items of interest Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:49:59 -0500 Hi, all, While recently reading through a Middle Div. ETT for 1933, I came across these two items: D3410 - Rule 706 modified. Uniforms - Designated uniformed employees must wear the standard uniform Nov. 1st to April 30th, both inclusive. The uniform designated for Summer use only, or standard mohair coats may be worn May 1st to Oct. 31st, both inclusive. Coats must be buttoned, except when trainmen are actually engaged in lifting transportation. I've always wondered why PRR crews in photos always seem to have their coats buttoned - now I know why! And boy, compared with today, talk about regimentation -- but I'll bet the PRR was no exception in this. It must have gotten pretty warm/cold on occasion -- and what would happen to you if you violated the rule? But here's my favorite. I'd heard to of the popular rr pantomime (sp?) for hotboxes -- holding your nose and pointing at the car. But regarding the rules governing inspection of passing trains, the ETT states that by day a person who observes a hot-box should "hold nose with one hand, with other hand pointed to track." I wonder what other railroader-created body language was made into a rule?? George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 21:08:08 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Items of interest --On Thu, Sep 2, 1999 6:49 PM -0500 "George N Pierson" wrote: > ...And boy, compared with today, talk about > regimentation -- Take a look at the general rules at the front of the rule books for that period ... "entering the service," "obedience to the rules," ... reads like the Articles of War! The language lightened up somewhat later on, but not much. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 21:18:28 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] THE Rules Just a follow up to my previous post on PRR General Rules and "regimentation" (and w/ thanks to Mark D. Bej for maintaining the 1956 rules on his Pennsy site) ------------------ GENERAL NOTICE Safety is of first importance in the discharge of duty. Obedience to the rules is essential to Safety. To enter or remain in the service is an assurance of willingness to obey the rules. The welfare of the Company depends upon the confidence of its patrons in the integrity and trustworthiness of all employes and in their ability to properly perform their assigned tasks safely and efficiently. The service demands the faithful, intelligent, and courteous discharge of duty. To obtain promotion, ability must be shown for greater responsibility. ------------------------- Kinda reads like there wasn't much room for error, don't it!? Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:18:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Etched signs In a message dated 9/2/99 1:16:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << I suppose you mean the ones that were made by Custom Railway Supply? I have not seen these for a while. I quit buying the Walthers Catalogs so I do not know if or when they stopped carrying these any more. Last time I seen a set of these was at a train show. Didn't buy them because there was no station listed on there that I could use. There is an old hobby shop that used to carry them, I will check to see if they are still there. I will let you know later. I assume you mean HO scale? Gary >> Gary and all, Custom Railway Supply is very much alive and well. They are a hobby shop here in Colorado Springs. Should anyone wish to contact them regarding this, here is the address and phone number. Custom Railway Supply 432 W. Fillmore Colorado Springs, CO. 80907 (719) 634-4616 Stuart Thayer PS: They also have quite a bit of PRR brass. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLCCR@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:14:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak This may be a bit off of the PRR subject. 43 and 44, the "day-time" trains, despite what an earlier post said, doesn't carry a sleeper; carries a "short-haul" bombardier coach, amfleet long-distance (leg rests) coach and an amcoach w/snack bar (lots of mail roadrailer on tail from HBG-CHI). I took it around the curve 8/26 and yes, the curve was blocked by an eastbound freight. Amtraked from Downingtown to Chicago 8/26 and return 8/30. This is a railfan speaking...it's a long day trip...with the NS delays. The trip to Chi wasn't too bad; in fact, quite enjoyable leaving Pittsburgh in daylight for a change. Arrived in Chi only 90 minutes late. On the return, left Chi 20 minutes late, lost another 2 hours by the time we arrived in Cleveland, and left Pittsburgh 3 hours late. The most delay-prone segment of the trip is between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg. Arrived in Harrisburg 5 hours late; and upon our arrival at approx 3am, was awakened by the news that the train was being terminated and all passengers were instructed to board 2 buses in front of the terminal for bussing to the final stops. So much for a restful coach ride. I'd recommend sticking with the 3 Rivers for its sleeper and be prepared for NS delays; although I hope this situation improves before too many more passengers are driven away from this "service". Bob R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:22:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their > own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I I do agree with put up or shut up, but more fragmentation in the PRR list community isn't useful either... You can't please everyone, so you might as well start with yourself, I guess -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:22:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their > own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I I do agree with put up or shut up, but more fragmentation in the PRR list community isn't useful either... You can't please everyone, so you might as well start with yourself, I guess -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:22:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their > own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I I do agree with put up or shut up, but more fragmentation in the PRR list community isn't useful either... You can't please everyone, so you might as well start with yourself, I guess -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Items of interest Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:45:45 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of vck@andrew.cmu.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 9:08 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Items of interest --On Thu, Sep 2, 1999 6:49 PM -0500 "George N Pierson" wrote: > ...And boy, compared with today, talk about > regimentation -- Take a look at the general rules at the front of the rule books for that period ... "entering the service," "obedience to the rules," ... reads like the Articles of War! The language lightened up somewhat later on, but not much. ============================================================= Vagel, That's because railroading was a lot like war, there was a lot at stake. One false move or slip up and you, or your co-workers could get maimed or killed, to say nothing of killing passengers or damaging thousands of dollars of freight. Believe me there was little room for error, and fortunately the people on the railroad by in large took it all very seriously. I remember one night in 1964 working on a track lowering project between Zoo and North Philadelphia, I almost got run over by my own work train reversing back to Mantua yard on an adjacent track. He was pushing a cut of H-21 hoppers to the yard with no man on the leading end, no lights, no backup hose, no nothing. In violation of Rule 19 "When cars are pushed by an engine (except when shifting or making up trains in yards) a white light must be displayed on the front of the leading car by night." Needless to say the conductor got his butt reamed. However, the railroad industry was not alone - most heavy manufacturing and mining industries were very safety conscious. But, unlike manufacturing plants and mines the railroad industry had passengers who everytime they got on a train put their faith in the hands of dispatchers, block operators, conductors, enginemen, trackmen and carmen, i.e., the entire team that operated, fixed and repaired. Like I said there was little room for error. I also spent seven years on active duty in the Army - Armor Branch. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Items of interest Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:57:48 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of vck@andrew.cmu.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 9:08 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Items of interest --On Thu, Sep 2, 1999 6:49 PM -0500 "George N Pierson" wrote: > ...And boy, compared with today, talk about > regimentation -- Take a look at the general rules at the front of the rule books for that period ... "entering the service," "obedience to the rules," ... reads like the Articles of War! The language lightened up somewhat later on, but not much. ============================================================= Vagel, That's because railroading was a lot like war, there was a lot at stake. One false move or slip up and you, or your co-workers could get maimed or killed, to say nothing of killing passengers or damaging thousands of dollars of freight. Believe me there was little room for error, and fortunately the people on the railroad by in large took it all very seriously. I remember one night in 1964 working on a track lowering project between Zoo and North Philadelphia, I almost got run over by my own work train reversing back to Mantua yard on an adjacent track. He was pushing a cut of H-21 hoppers to the yard with no man on the leading end, no lights, no backup hose, no nothing. In violation of Rule 19 "When cars are pushed by an engine (except when shifting or making up trains in yards) a white light must be displayed on the front of the leading car by night." Needless to say the conductor got his butt reamed. However, the railroad industry was not alone - most heavy manufacturing and mining industries were very safety conscious. But, unlike manufacturing plants and mines the railroad industry had passengers who everytime they got on a train put their faith in the hands of dispatchers, block operators, conductors, enginemen, trackmen and carmen, i.e., the entire team that operated, fixed and repaired. Like I said there was little room for error. I also spent seven years on active duty in the Army - Armor Branch. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:06:59 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Miracle Castings Inc. wrote: > I run a list on Onelist.com which has about 430 members. I don't own or > operate the servers, pay any monthly charges for access, net connections, > upgrades of software, etc. Onelist does all the maintenance, spends all the > time and all the money to keep my list going. And yet, I OWN THE LIST. I > can do WHATEVER I WANT, including advertising on my list and / or web pages, > allowing sponsors, plug my own product if I want to, and generally act in a > completely autocratic manner. If I don't like a subscriber for any reason, I > can arbitrarily cut them off, and there's nothing they can do about it! > Therefore I say to Jerry: YOU pay for ALL of the charges incurred in > operating this list. YOU spend all the time maintaining the servers, > troubleshooting, etc. Therefore if you feel you want to advertise in the > list, post ads on the web pages, and otherwise try to recover the costs of > operating this list, I feel that the subscribers on the list have absolutely > no right whatsoever to criticize you for that. If they don't like it, they > can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their > own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I > wouldn't put up with that in my list, and I haven't invested a cent! I make > it quite clear to my subscribers what is acceptable to ME, and they must > abide by that or unsubscribe (or I'll do it for them). It's YOUR list, > Jerry, in every conceivable way. I suggest that you tell us how it's going > to be, and anyone who doesn't like it can take a hike. > > Pat Lawless Can't help but notice that you've got an interesting surname there, Pat. :-) Richard Wallis > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 23:13:23 -0500 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/02/99 Jerry, Regarding Pat Lawless' words on doing what you like on the list. I agree and strongly support the idea that you can and should advertise the business that supports the list, and for that matter, anything else you wish to advertise. There are people in this world, and it would seem especially on the many net lists, that spend a lot of time finding fault. Nothing will satisfy them. Too bad. Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:50:40 -0700 Kris, In a nutshell, no you weren't, and yes they were. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Kollar, Kris To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 8:52 AM Subject: [PRR] L1 number plates >Haven't been on the list in a while so I apologize if this question has been >recently asked. > >I assume that the front number plate the L1 was cast in brass or bronze. >Therefore I would expect the raised rim and numbers to have a metallic sheen >to them when seen in color photos. However, all to often the rim and >numbers seen to be almost yellow (and a very bright yellow in some cases). >Can anyone tell me if I'm imagining things. Were these plates sometimes >trimmed in yellow paint? > >Thanks, > >Kris > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chapters, Lines West Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:49:19 -0700 Hmmm...shouldn't that be "Cite DehTWAH"??? And I am ashamed that I forgot about the Arizona Chapter (Bill Kress will never forgive me!!!)...but in fact they all are up in Phoenix. Bill Daniels, Tucson (not Phoenix) AZ -----Original Message----- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 8:13 AM Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chapters, Lines West >Other than DehTWAH (a nod to listers with six or >more years of formal French training), E. Mich, and N. Ohio, there are none >listed west of Pgh ... excepting Arizona. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] ETCHED MODEL TOWER AND DEPOT SIGNS Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:05:07 -0700 Hi out there... Muchas Gracias to both Brian Brooks and Doug Kisala for their posts regarding the address of Doug Jones's Schuylkill Division! Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Date: Fri, 3 Sep 99 06:35:52 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/2/99 6:50 PM, Miracle Castings Inc. (miracle-castings@on.aibn.com) wrote: >I run a list on Onelist.com which has about 430 members. I don't own or >operate the servers, pay any monthly charges for access, net connections, >upgrades of software, etc. Onelist does all the maintenance, spends all the >time and all the money to keep my list going. And yet, I OWN THE LIST. I >can do WHATEVER I WANT, including advertising on my list and / or web pages, >allowing sponsors, plug my own product if I want to, and generally act in a >completely autocratic manner. If I don't like a subscriber for any reason, I >can arbitrarily cut them off, and there's nothing they can do about it! >Therefore I say to Jerry: YOU pay for ALL of the charges incurred in >operating this list. YOU spend all the time maintaining the servers, >troubleshooting, etc. Therefore if you feel you want to advertise in the >list, post ads on the web pages, and otherwise try to recover the costs of >operating this list, I feel that the subscribers on the list have absolutely >no right whatsoever to criticize you for that. If they don't like it, they >can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their >own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I >wouldn't put up with that in my list, and I haven't invested a cent! I make >it quite clear to my subscribers what is acceptable to ME, and they must >abide by that or unsubscribe (or I'll do it for them). It's YOUR list, >Jerry, in every conceivable way. I suggest that you tell us how it's going >to be, and anyone who doesn't like it can take a hike. First, thanks for the support. Second, to respond to why I do not serve via OneList: Archives. On my server, the digests from all the lists are fed into my database server. That allows search and retrieval -- based on keywords and/or fields -- of over 15,000 past posts. Unless there is some hidden way of doing it, on OneList all you can do is manually read over past digests...or maintain your own archive. This information is too valuable to not be able to access it readily. OneList does not serve MY purpose, and I doubt it would serve yours over the long haul. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 07:26:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates In a message dated 9/2/99 12:09:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kris.kollar@paharr.ang.af.mil writes: << Haven't been on the list in a while so I apologize if this question has been recently asked. I assume that the front number plate the L1 was cast in brass or bronze. Therefore I would expect the raised rim and numbers to have a metallic sheen to them when seen in color photos. However, all to often the rim and numbers seen to be almost yellow (and a very bright yellow in some cases). Can anyone tell me if I'm imagining things. Were these plates sometimes trimmed in yellow paint? Thanks, Kris >> Kris, Although there are better experts than I, I am in the middle of settling an estate that contains several keystone number plates. What I have learned/been told by experts: 1. although some number and builder plates are described as "bronze", I have been cautioned that virtually all of these are really brass. Brass is an alloy; some brasses isn't as bright yellowish as others, presumably because of a lower copper content. In any case, these got dirty enough quickly enough that "shiny" alone wouldn't be visible. 2. "Reconditioned plates" are those that have been cleaned up, usually painted in bright red with yellow on letters and rim. However, I've seen and examined a keystone which may have original finish (i.e., railroad applied 50 years ago), and it looked like a dark red with remains of yellow on the raised numbers and rim. Comments anyone else? Rick Tipton Awash in the Jack Fravert collection (and therefore 50-year-old locomotive soot). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 07:26:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Converse, Indiana Station In a message dated 9/2/99 10:45:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << Firthermore, Converse was, and still is a small, sleepy farming community of less than 1,000. Generally speaking, these smaller communities warranted wooden frame structures with conventional architectural features. There were always exceptions and Converse is one of those.Given its architecture and its location, Converse Station is a true gem in the middle of cornfields. >> One item in Converse's favor -- it was once the junction point for a line PRR had to Muncie IN. Although this line joined the Pennsy family sometime after 1905, it should be findable in GRI (Sulzer's Ghost Railroads of Indiana), which I haven't even had time to unwrap. Wonder if being a junction had anything to do with the more substantial station? Converse is one of those stations I never got to shoot. Glad it's still standing. Rick Tipton Lines well West of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:39:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates In a message dated 9/3/99 6:37:40 AM EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << 1. although some number and builder plates are described as "bronze", I have been cautioned that virtually all of these are really brass. Brass is an alloy; some brasses isn't as bright yellowish as others, presumably because of a lower copper content. In any case, these got dirty enough quickly enough that "shiny" alone wouldn't be visible. >> BOTH Brass and Bronze are alloys: Brass is Copper + Zinc - Bronze is Copper + Tin and has a higher melting point, is harder and is usually darker in color. Brass would normally be used for "decorative" castings - and the color can vary according to the mixture in the "alloy" - while bronze is more likely to be used for operating parts - such as bearings or wear plates. I do believe, again, that any Brass number plates would have been pre WW 2 - as Copper was in such short supply that Pennies and Locomotive Bells were made of Steel. Painted backgrounds should be Black (not DGLE) on the Freight "roundels" and Toulidine Red on the Keystones - in some of the early color films you can see that red number plate almost before you can see the locomotive Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jimy6b@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:50:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services PRR Talk is great!! Jerry if you want to advertise thats fine with me its your list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:03:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Notes Of Support From: "Jerry Britton" I appreciate all of the notes of support I have been receiving...especially all the good ideas. I will share with you that a proposal is in the works. However, in order to keep the list archives a bit cleaner and more to the point, please do not CC or post your notes of support to the list. They are indeed appreciated, but let's stick to the topic at hand. I post to the list because I need to share news of the situation. Thank you! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:18:06 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Jerry, If you are collecting votes of confidence, you have mine. If it pays to advertise - do it. I would gladly wade through piles of Spam for the nuggets of value on this list. But on top of that, your advertisers contribute, to my mind, great information value. Without PRR-Talk and it ads I never would have know about Miracle castings! You've been through enough electronic fecal matter recently, and should not have to put up with this - and that's a "fact". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:18:06 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Jerry, If you are collecting votes of confidence, you have mine. If it pays to advertise - do it. I would gladly wade through piles of Spam for the nuggets of value on this list. But on top of that, your advertisers contribute, to my mind, great information value. Without PRR-Talk and it ads I never would have know about Miracle castings! You've been through enough electronic fecal matter recently, and should not have to put up with this - and that's a "fact". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:20:17 -0400 I have several P-5 builders plates and they are all aluminum. My GG-1 Builders plate off 4854 is brass. The Altoona Works B-1s were cast iron. What is interesting is that I got four of the marker lights off of the 4704. The two piece jobs like the steam locos had on the pilots and tenders. Two of the bonnets were brass and two were cast iron, as I put them in the lye vat and stripped the paint off of them before carting them home. I think that the high theft rate of brass fixtures in the 1940s prompted the PRR to go to cast iron wherever possible. For what that's worth. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: VVA249@aol.com To: RickTipton@aol.com Cc: Prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 number plates >In a message dated 9/3/99 6:37:40 AM EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > ><< 1. although some number and builder plates are described as "bronze", I >have > been cautioned that virtually all of these are really brass. Brass is an > alloy; some brasses isn't as bright yellowish as others, presumably because > of a lower copper content. In any case, these got dirty enough quickly > enough that "shiny" alone wouldn't be visible. >> > > BOTH Brass and Bronze are alloys: Brass is Copper + Zinc - Bronze is >Copper + Tin and has a higher melting point, is harder and is usually darker >in color. > Brass would normally be used for "decorative" castings - and the color >can vary according to the mixture in the "alloy" - while bronze is more >likely to be used for operating parts - such as bearings or wear plates. > I do believe, again, that any Brass number plates would have been pre WW >2 - as Copper was in such short supply that Pennies and Locomotive Bells >were made of Steel. Painted backgrounds should be Black (not DGLE) on the >Freight "roundels" and Toulidine Red on the Keystones - in some of the early >color films you can see that red number plate almost before you can see the >locomotive > >Dick Ross >Cleveland > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:50:47 -0500 Jerry, As you probably know, the OneList talk forums have ads on them. And in most cases the ads have nothing to do with the list. You have my vote to go ahead and put whatever advertising and/or links you need to make maintaining the list worth your time and effort. A little blatant commercialism is OK with me! It is after all YOUR list. Thanks for your time and effort. Regards, Greg Johnson -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services >Jerry, > >If you are collecting votes of confidence, you have mine. If it pays to >advertise - do it. > >I would gladly wade through piles of Spam for the nuggets of value on >this list. But on top of that, your advertisers contribute, to my mind, >great information value. Without PRR-Talk and it ads I never would have >know about Miracle castings! > >You've been through enough electronic fecal matter recently, and should >not have to put up with this - and that's a "fact". > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 12:29:16 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services One thing in addition to all the banner ads on Onelist is that since joining a couple of Onelist lists the amount of Spam I receive seems to have increased a bit as well (20 to 30 pieces of junk a week as opposed to 10 to 15). I dont know if this is related to the Onelist subscriptions or not but it just seems a little odd. At least with a "private" list like PRR-Talk I know that Jerry isnt selling all our email addresses to 3d parties. On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Greg Johnson wrote: >Jerry, > >As you probably know, the OneList talk forums have ads on them. And in most >cases the ads have nothing to do with the list. > >You have my vote to go ahead and put whatever advertising and/or links you >need to make maintaining the list worth your time and effort. A little >blatant commercialism is OK with me! It is after all YOUR list. > >Thanks for your time and effort. > >Regards, > >Greg Johnson >-----Original Message----- >From: Andy Miller >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 9:40 AM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services > > >>Jerry, >> >>If you are collecting votes of confidence, you have mine. If it pays to >>advertise - do it. >> >>I would gladly wade through piles of Spam for the nuggets of value on >>this list. But on top of that, your advertisers contribute, to my mind, >>great information value. Without PRR-Talk and it ads I never would have >>know about Miracle castings! >> >>You've been through enough electronic fecal matter recently, and should >>not have to put up with this - and that's a "fact". >> >>Regards, >> >>Andy Miller >>asmiller@mitre.org >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for PRR Talk services Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 13:13:13 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 3 Sep, alcoman wrote: > One thing in addition to all the banner ads on Onelist is that since > joining a couple of Onelist lists the amount of Spam I receive seems to > have increased a bit as well (20 to 30 pieces of junk a week as opposed to > 10 to 15). I dont know if this is related to the Onelist subscriptions or > not but it just seems a little odd. At least with a "private" list like > PRR-Talk I know that Jerry isnt selling all our email addresses to 3d > parties. This is a persistent rumor that has no basis in my experience. I am subscribed to 30 (!) onelists and my spam went down to near-zero when I stopped posting on USENET. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:38:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [MIDEASTmodeler] P2K GP7 detail change In a message dated 9/3/99 1:08:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimsix@ncweb.com writes: << From: "Jim Six" Y'all, How closely have you looked at the photo of the new "passenger GP7s" from Proto 2000 that are pictured on the new products pages of the October MR? NYC and L&N models are pictured. If you look closely you will notice that the pilots are no longer sloped panels, but instead mu-hose pocket type. Anyone else noticed this? Jim >> Jim, Oddly enough, I was just looking at a page of the PRR website Keystone Crossings (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/p2k_gp7.html) on redetailing GP7's. The writeup there pointed out the P2K's sloped panels were not correct for some PRR units. Now I read your message, appearing with an instant cure. Who says the Internet ain't great? Guys, you are having a measurable effect on the manufacturers. They are reading your stuff and paying attention. Congratulations! Keep up the good work. Rick Tipton Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [MIDEASTmodeler] P2K GP7 detail change Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:42:38 -0400 I had a GP-7 (not passenger) assigned to me at Northumberland ( I seem to remember itas 5874) with a permanently mounted snow plow, which i painted yellow. So MODEL THAT sports fans! Bill V. P.S. The reason for the snow plow pilot was that it was originally assigned to Elmira and was used on the Sodus Point line where it snowed once in awhile. I seem to also remember they stranded a 3 unit F-7 with a real plow in a cut up there for several days. -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com To: jimsix@ncweb.com ; MIDEASTmodeler@onelist.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: jerry@pennsyrr.com Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 1:44 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [MIDEASTmodeler] P2K GP7 detail change >In a message dated 9/3/99 1:08:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimsix@ncweb.com >writes: > ><< From: "Jim Six" > > Y'all, > > How closely have you looked at the photo of the new "passenger GP7s" from > Proto 2000 that are pictured on the new products pages of the October MR? > NYC and L&N models are pictured. If you look closely you will notice that > the pilots are no longer sloped panels, but instead mu-hose pocket type. > > Anyone else noticed this? > > Jim > >> >Jim, > >Oddly enough, I was just looking at a page of the PRR website Keystone >Crossings (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/p2k_gp7.html) on redetailing GP7's. >The writeup there pointed out the P2K's sloped panels were not correct for >some PRR units. > >Now I read your message, appearing with an instant cure. Who says the >Internet ain't great? Guys, you are having a measurable effect on the >manufacturers. They are reading your stuff and paying attention. >Congratulations! Keep up the good work. > >Rick Tipton > >Rick Tipton > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 14:29:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Roster From: "Jerry Britton" Folks, I am putting the finishing touches on the DESIGN of a searchable passenger car roster for "Keystone Crossings". It will be much like the existing database-based rosters for diesels, electrics, and cabins, but with many more fields! It will be inclusive of head-end equipment, hw and lw, cabins, etc...as much data as I can get a hold of! These are the fields I currently am working with. What others are necessary or should be considered? Class Description (parlor, diner, coach, etc.) Road # Car Name Build Date Builder Plan # Lot # Serial # Truck Type Known Assignments Know Modifications/Paint Dates/Etc. Photo Description/Credit of Photo (text for above) Current Location (if applicable) Scrap Date Input will take many months. The newer lightweights will be the easiest, as there are fewer models and more data available. I will likely solicit information frequently for this project. Stay tuned! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 11:56:16 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Roster Jerry, Will the field for "known modifications/paint dates/etc., include paint colors? For example, would it say if the car was painted in UP Armour Yellow, or MP Eagle blue & light gray for through service, and give it's dates in that color scheme? If not, can you add something like that? Chuck Friedlein Jerry Britton wrote: > Folks, I am putting the finishing touches on the DESIGN of a searchable > passenger car roster for "Keystone Crossings". > > It will be much like the existing database-based rosters for diesels, > electrics, and cabins, but with many more fields! > > It will be inclusive of head-end equipment, hw and lw, cabins, etc...as much > data as I can get a hold of! > > These are the fields I currently am working with. What others are necessary > or should be considered? > > Class > Description (parlor, diner, coach, etc.) > Road # > Car Name > Build Date > Builder > Plan # > Lot # > Serial # > Truck Type > Known Assignments > Know Modifications/Paint Dates/Etc. > Photo > Description/Credit of Photo (text for above) > Current Location (if applicable) > Scrap Date > > Input will take many months. The newer lightweights will be the easiest, as > there are fewer models and more data available. I will likely solicit > information frequently for this project. Stay tuned! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:02:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Roster From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Chuck Friedlein >To: Jerry Britton >Cc: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Roster >Date: Fri, Sep 3, 1999, 2:56 PM > > Will the field for "known modifications/paint dates/etc., include paint colors? > For example, would it say if the car was painted in UP Armour Yellow, or MP > Eagle blue & light gray for through service, and give it's dates in that color > scheme? > Yes! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:38:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Kitbashing X-29's - Parts From: "Jerry Britton" As mentioned before, Joe Gotaskie gave a great presentation on modeling the X-29 at the convention. In addition to showing how to improve a Red Caboose X-29, one of his favorites was to hack a Walthers X-29 using Red Caboose parts. The following Red Caboose parts are now available in my eStore...or you can perhaps order them through your local dealer: RDCAB-RP-7000-01 HO, Part, X-29 Underframe RDCAB-RP-7000-02 HO, Part, X-29 Door/Detail Sprue RDCAB-RP-7000-03 HO, Part, X-29 Roof & Roof Walk RDCAB-RP-7000-04 HO, Part, X-29 Reverse Creco Doors RDCAB-RP-7000-05 HO, Part, X-29 REA Parts Sprue I can also supply other Red Caboose parts, just ask and I'll add them to the eStore. It should be noted that we have the complete Bowser parts listing online as well. Happy modeling! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:40:29 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Roster Jerry, Consider: - "Acquisition Date". Many cars were built for someone else (classically the Pullman Company) and acquired at a later date by the PRR. - "Available models". While not strictly part of a passenger car db, many (most?) our the list's subscribers are model RRers and would be interested in the sources and accuracy of models. While you are at it, a bibliography of plans and articles on the car. - "AAR Designation" - "A/C type" (if any) (Gary Spear, are you listening ?) With regard to the issue of colors, doesn't the PRRT&HS book on passenger car paint schemes document, with samples, all of the colors used by the PRR? As I recall it includes a number for each color. That would make the obvious ultimate source reference if you are to describe the colors. Do it by the numbers. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > Folks, I am putting the finishing touches on the DESIGN of a searchable > passenger car roster for "Keystone Crossings". > > It will be much like the existing database-based rosters for diesels, > electrics, and cabins, but with many more fields! > > It will be inclusive of head-end equipment, hw and lw, cabins, etc...as much > data as I can get a hold of! > > These are the fields I currently am working with. What others are necessary > or should be considered? > > Class > Description (parlor, diner, coach, etc.) > Road # > Car Name > Build Date > Builder > Plan # > Lot # > Serial # > Truck Type > Known Assignments > Know Modifications/Paint Dates/Etc. > Photo > Description/Credit of Photo (text for above) > Current Location (if applicable) > Scrap Date > > Input will take many months. The newer lightweights will be the easiest, as > there are fewer models and more data available. I will likely solicit > information frequently for this project. Stay tuned! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 15:54:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Roster From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Andy Miller >To: Jerry Britton >Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Roster >Date: Fri, Sep 3, 1999, 3:40 PM > > Consider: > - "Acquisition Date". Many cars were built for someone else > (classically the Pullman Company) and acquired at a later date by the > PRR. A good point! > > - "Available models". While not strictly part of a passenger car db, > many (most?) our the list's subscribers are model RRers and would be > interested in the sources and accuracy of models. While you are at it, > a bibliography of plans and articles on the car. You probably hadn't yet received my post on another similar response. Since there are xx cars in a class, there is no use in entering the data in each record of the class. A class/model cross reference page, like the one I have for diesel models, will be done. It will include available models and plans. Adding bibliographic links is not a bad idea! > > - "AAR Designation" Again, one designation per class. Will include in the cross-reference table, rather than the individual car record. > > - "A/C type" (if any) (Gary Spear, are you listening ?) Another good idea! A/C would warrant a field of its own, whereas "radio antenna" would not. The letter could go in the generic notes field. > > With regard to the issue of colors, doesn't the PRRT&HS book on > passenger car paint schemes document, with samples, all of the colors > used by the PRR? As I recall it includes a number for each color. That > would make the obvious ultimate source reference if you are to describe > the colors. Do it by the numbers. Yes, it does include the color swatches. Some references can be made, but many are not noted (as in cars not in the book). Keep the ideas coming! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Life Like P2K GP30's Date: Fri, 3 Sep 99 17:02:09 -0400 From: Jerry Just passing on the news that the Life Like Proto 2000 GP30's in PRR livery are indeed out. We received our order today and filled all advance reservations. (Thank you!) More are available...three road numbers! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Life Like P2K GP30's Date: Fri, 3 Sep 99 17:02:09 -0400 From: Jerry Just passing on the news that the Life Like Proto 2000 GP30's in PRR livery are indeed out. We received our order today and filled all advance reservations. (Thank you!) More are available...three road numbers! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:25:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] NEW PRODUCTS Any word on the Teichmoeler book on Pennsy Hoppers? Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillJewett@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:42:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chapters, Lines West Doesn't the GR&I Chapter qualify? President Marty Strang, West Olive MI, 616-846-4774. Has a meeting Sat 9/11 1:30 pm at restored Sparta MI PRR depot. Bill Dune Acres IN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Hopper book Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:29:08 -0700 Model Railroading magazine has advertised the book. The publishers of the magazine are also publishing the book. When I placed my order a week or so ago, they said the book would be running late becuase of delays with photos. They weren't specific as to how late. I got the impression a couple of weeks. Greg Stone PRTHS member Always looking for information or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Hopper book Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:29:08 -0700 Model Railroading magazine has advertised the book. The publishers of the magazine are also publishing the book. When I placed my order a week or so ago, they said the book would be running late becuase of delays with photos. They weren't specific as to how late. I got the impression a couple of weeks. Greg Stone PRTHS member Always looking for information or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Hopper book Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:29:08 -0700 Model Railroading magazine has advertised the book. The publishers of the magazine are also publishing the book. When I placed my order a week or so ago, they said the book would be running late becuase of delays with photos. They weren't specific as to how late. I got the impression a couple of weeks. Greg Stone PRTHS member Always looking for information or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Hopper book Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:29:08 -0700 Model Railroading magazine has advertised the book. The publishers of the magazine are also publishing the book. When I placed my order a week or so ago, they said the book would be running late becuase of delays with photos. They weren't specific as to how late. I got the impression a couple of weeks. Greg Stone PRTHS member Always looking for information or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Hopper book Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:29:08 -0700 Model Railroading magazine has advertised the book. The publishers of the magazine are also publishing the book. When I placed my order a week or so ago, they said the book would be running late becuase of delays with photos. They weren't specific as to how late. I got the impression a couple of weeks. Greg Stone PRTHS member Always looking for information or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 21:57:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Car Roster Hi all, Andy Miller wrote: > - "Available models". While not strictly part of a passenger car db, > many (most?) our the list's subscribers are model RRers and would be > interested in the sources and accuracy of models. While you are at it, > a bibliography of plans and articles on the car. If a field like this is added, it is not very useful unless the scale is also indicated. Not to mention that a model might be available from more than one manufacturer in differing scales. So there would really need to be a slew of similar fields for all the popular scales. I know it's tough for some to believe, but NOT EVERYONE models in HO scale... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 21:57:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] NEW PRODUCTS Dick Ross asked: > Any word on the Teichmoeler book on Pennsy Hoppers? I asked Teichmoeller at the convention a few days back. He sez he is waiting for the publisher to get back to him with some things. He was as uncertain of the schedule as we are! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 03:56:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Mr. Keely's Take(reply) Jerry and all, If you compare the two notes forwarded to the list over the issues you can see why many of us have been disenchanted with the historical society. I am still much in favor of a PRR Historical Modeling Society. The belief that PRR-Talk is for modelers and PRR-FAX by the nature of the spin on words is just that, "facts," really throws me. My interest in the PRR is from a historical research point and then I like to relax and model/replicate what I have learned in miniature. I crave the input from people like Bill Volkmer and others that have the first hand experiences with the PRR and what he can share with us. I then try to put the research together and model what I learned and then of course share it in print with others and hope they too copy what I have shared. Copy is the best form of flattery, IMHO. To think that there are finite answers to all that the Pennsy did is ridiculous. Just like the present thread on the Passenger Car List about the correct color for passenger car equipment. Some think that the PRR changed the color, but in fact the PRR never made paint or changed the spec.'s the paint companies changed the pigments. Did they match the color drift cards, well you be the judge? The color is certainly different but it is not reflected in the drift cards. We must then assume that less attention was paid to the cards then to the economics. In a rate/price regulated economic environment less opportunities to hold true to form must have fallen by the wayside to price and durability of a barrel of paint. But you might not reach this conclusion if you are set on just the "FAX." Conjecture is in many cases is all we have left to fall back on as many of the answers have gone down with the ship. So, that being said the more input I see from people like Bill the more I appreciate what we have here. Thanks Jerry, for giving us this opportunity to share. I think you have been as polite regarding this matter as possible and I too am not in favor of list wars, but welcome cross post. Research I do by damn, modeling I do as a passion. By the time the models are done I feel that sometimes I have just crammed a college course, case in point was the article I did for Mainline Modeler on the FA/B/A-2 set. It was seven months of research because I felt that knowing only the PRR units was only part of the research and knowing the ALCo side was just as important. It draws you to an enlightened level were you realize that Pennsy was the recipient of both phase one and phase two units. Didn't know that there was a difference, do the research the answer was in my text (hint think of the RS-3 phase changes). And if you think that sharing doesn't pay off well then check out Kris Kollar's L-1 project on the RPM Website (http://www.rpmrail.org under the heading ) and you will have to think twice. Sharing and encouraging and complimenting efforts done does motivate others. We have this list to thank for Krises' fantastic work. Pat yourselves on the back guys, with input from Bruce Smith and Bill Daniels Krises' work is GREAT! It is his second project. So, Again thank you Jerry, and thanks to all of you in PRR-Talk Land that make this list something to come home from work and look forward to. Greg Martin Keepin' mine polished! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NEW PRODUCTS Date: Sat, 4 Sep 99 05:46:13 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/3/99 5:25 PM, VVA249@aol.com (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: >Any word on the Teichmoeler book on Pennsy Hoppers? The original due date I had was Oct. 1. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NEW PRODUCTS Date: Sat, 4 Sep 99 05:46:13 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/3/99 5:25 PM, VVA249@aol.com (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: >Any word on the Teichmoeler book on Pennsy Hoppers? The original due date I had was Oct. 1. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charles E. Whary" Subject: [PRR] Duplicaes Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:02:46 -0400 Jerry, Been having problems with duplicates all week. Most of the time it doubles sometimes thirds and quads. Thought you like to know. Charles E. Whary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cathatjim@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 09:01:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR in N-Scale A couple of post in the last day have led me to a two-part Question: 1) how many people on the list model the PRR in nscale? and does anyone have plans for an E-44 or the earlier electrics in N? Really Curious Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 09:05:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in N-Scale Hi Jim & list members, > A couple of post in the last day have led me to a two-part Question: > 1) how many people on the list model the PRR in nscale? > and does anyone have plans > for an E-44 or the earlier electrics in N? A two-part question requires a two-part answer. I don't think anyone can give you the exact number as to how many list members model in N scale, but right off Doug Nelson, Dennis Rockwell, Ron Dugas and myself all model in N. Doug and I also met up with several other folks who model in N scale at this last convention, but they might not be on this list. In any case, this year's model contest at the convention had quite a few N-scale entries, more than I have ever seen in previous years. Baldwin Sharks, L1 steam locos, a GP7 (with torpedo tubes), FM C-Liners (in LIRR paint), several passenger cars, and a small fleet of freight cars were all to be seen in the model contest this year. Nicely-done models at that! As to "does anyone have plans for an E-44", well, it kind of depends what you mean. If you only want drawings, then reduce photocopy them to 1/160 scale on a photocopier. If you mean intention to manufacture one, I know of no such undertaking. Have fun - Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) San Francisco, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cathatjim@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:31:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in N-Scale Sorry, i should of explained myself better, i was looking for plans and any ideas on how to make one jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pyardj@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:41:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chapters, Lines West I believe the GR&I does qualify. Joel Pyard GR&I Chapter member ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 10:59:28 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in N-Scale Cathatjim@aol.com wrote: > A couple of post in the last day have led me to a two-part Question: 1) how > many people on the list model the PRR in nscale? and does anyone have plans > for an E-44 or the earlier electrics in N? I model PRR in N-scale! I have two excellent Kato Mikados with GHQ conversions, a Brass T-1 duplex that will run 17" curves and some good deisels. Cheers, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 14:36:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Mr. Keely's Take(reply) I have been a member of the PRRT&HS for nearly 20 years. The attitude reflected in the notes from Mr. Keely have been of concern to me since day one. The PRRT&HS to the best of my knowledge is alone as an RR historical society in its open disdainment of modeling. The PRRT&HS BOD, it seems to me, actually takes pride in not addressing the needs and desires of the modelers among its membership. Just look at the Keystone. On rare occasions there will be a review of a model, usually high priced brass with extremely limited production. The model room at the convention is generally very limited in number of entries -- almost an after thought. The BOD has steadfastly refused to participate in the production of special cars as a Society project. They have on occassion provided historical and technical information to manufactures. According to my sources, John Teichmoller series on PRR hoppers was first offered to the Keystone for publication and was refused as being too modeling oriented. This dose not mean I am in favor of starting a PRR modeling society ala the Santa Fe disaster. But it does mean I believe the membership of the PRRT&HS needs to work to change the complexion of the Society to be all inclusive of historians and modelers. Both need to be tolerant of the other and cognizant of the needs and wishes of each other. It has been 31 years since the PRR died. Many of the current members and future members were not even born when the last PRR train was called. I am of the opinion that the BOD has yet to realize this and see the need to change if the PRRT&HS is to continue as the preeminent organization it is. Just my 2 cents. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 16:08:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in N-Scale Jim: We have quite a strong contingent of SPF N scalers in my club, Nothern Virginia NTrak. We have a number of PRR prototype and modules in N-Scale too, and a whole bunch in development. Mine is a 4 foot module called the Paoli Local and can be seen at: http://members.aol.com/jp k815/paoli/index.htm or http://www.nvntrak.org/m odules/paoli_local.htm As for the electrics, N-scale is sorely lacking. There is a decent enough GG1 made by Arnold Rivarossi (Rapido), although the lime green paint needs to come off in place of a nice DGLE. I have custom painted a pair of Kato EF-15s to resemble an FF-2 (or some have thought P-5A although the wheel arrangement is way off). They run nice and really look Pennsy. I am unaware of an E-44 model even in Brass. Sunset has an old DD-1 pair in brass, and Someone did a brass MP-54 set a while back but I haven't seen them in about a decade. To my knowledge that's about it for the juice freaks out there in N. Best, Jay Keese NVNTAK Alexandria, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 18:39:57 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Mr. Keely's Take & Modeling Hi everyone, The following is excerpted from what Rich Orr wrote: > Just look at the Keystone. On rare occasions there will be a review of a > model, usually high priced brass with extremely limited production. The > model room at the convention is generally very limited in number of entries > -- almost an after thought. The BOD has steadfastly refused to participate > in the production of special cars as a Society project. They have on > occassion provided historical and technical information to manufactures. > According to my sources, John Teichmoller series on PRR hoppers was first > offered to the Keystone for publication and was refused as being too modeling > oriented. Don't get me wrong Rich, I am in total agreement with the *main thrust* of what you are saying here. I do feel compelled to point out that the model contest having "generally very limited in number of entries" is not really the fault of the PRRT&HS BOD. It seems to me more like so: if more folks *entered* models, we would *see* more models in the contest. This seems to have very little the PRRT&HS BOD, at least as far as I can see. As a sideline, year after year the model room is almost always handled by one person - Jon Johnson. How many folks out there offered to spend an hour or two in the model room relieving Jon from this duty so he could go out and have a bit of enjoyable time for himself? I did, and I know of at least one other PRR-Talk subscriber who traveled all the way from the West Coast who did as well (Doug Nelson, if you are in the audience, please stand up!) Jon told us that next year he won't be able to oversee the model room due to other obligations, so I'm sure volunteers to man the model room will be needed even *more* than usual. So maybe we (I mean PRR-Talk members who are modelers) could lend a hand next year??? Anyone else up to volunteering? In closing, I myself would very much like to see more and greater emphasis on modeling within the society, but perhaps not everyone in the PRRT&HS does. Some members are historically inclined, and don't model. That's OK. Also remember, we have an excellent array of modeling magazines to chose from at the hobby shop magazine rack. Agreed, the mags are not PRR-specific, but if one were to approach them with an article, even a very PRR-specific one, they would likely publish it. Teichmoeller's hopper series is, of course, the ultimate proof of that statement! Rich further wrote: > According to my sources, John Teichmoller series on PRR > hoppers was first offered to the Keystone for publication and was refused > as being too modeling oriented. Again, Rich, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shoot you down here, far from it. Still, I need to ask: when you wrote "According to my sources...", what exactly were your sources? Did you ask Teichmoeller on this? As John is not particularly well internet-enabled, I'll forward your origional email (in postal mail form) to John and ask for his input. It might take a couple of weeks, but we may get an illuminating answer. If we want to see more modeling emphasis, one way to do it is to bring and display your models. Don't feel embarrased, don't be worried someone will laugh at your models - I felt all of those things the first time I brought a model, and instead I got nothing but praise and encouraging words from folks out there, including some of the most well-known and respected model-makers out there! Just as we enjoy viewing *other* people's models in the contest, they will enjoy viewing yours too! And it need not be a 1.5" scale live steam E6 model either!!! Remember, the main point of entering the model contest should not be the need to win, simply the reward of displaying and sharing the results of your effort. Enough for today - I hope this encourages one or more of you to bring your models and display them. - Claus (hoping the PRR-Talk list server doesn't crash under the strain of processing all the emails from model-room volunteers!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 18:39:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in N-Scale Hi Jim, > Sorry, i should of explained myself better, i was looking for plans and any > ideas on how to make one Scratchbuilding seems like the only real way to go in our scale as I know of nothing available that is close. In any case, building an E44 would be a fascinating project, regardless of scale. "Pennsy Power" (Staufer) has a two-page section devoted to the E44. No drawings, photos only, but one is a clear broadside builders photo - you could reduce-photocopy it to full-size N scale or twice N-scale for convenience of measurement. Or lay some tracing paper over the origional printed photo and trace the outlines, then photocopy-reduce your "line art" to N-scale. Staufer also has sections on all the other electric classes, including experimentals. Further, the book "Steam and Electric Locomotive Diagrams of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co." (Staufer) has crude (but usable) drawings of electric classes FF2, E3b, E2c, E2b, DD2, GG1, R1, L6a, L6, P5a, P5b, P5, O1, O1b, O1c, O1a, B3, BB2, B1, L5pdw and DD1. Everything except the E44 you were asking for. Since the book was published in 1962, perhaps the E44 was not on the scene yet? I dunno! As to starting points, look to diesel models for a mechanism. Hope this helps... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 00:38:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Paying for List /Talk Services Jerri & folks, Rather interesting commentary from a list member earlier (or was it Commodore "Public Be Damned" Vanderbilt?). Rather harser verbage than I care to hear from my business affiliates. To wit, in part : "And yet, I OWN THE LIST. I can do WHATEVER I WANT....and generally act in a completely autocratic manner. If I don't like a subscriber for any reason, I can arbitrarily cut them off, and there's nothing they can do about it!" Well, actually there is. If some manurfacturer stiffed me like that the first thing I would do is stop purchasing their goods and/or avoid future dealings. Then I would tell the sixty or seventy guys I know in the hobby (three of which are themselves in the business side of it) just how this or that company operates and regards their customers. Word gets around, which is one of the cardinal rules of business. Might be good and might be bad, but a reputation will be established. Further: ,"I feel that the subscribers on the list have absolutely >no right whatsoever to criticize you for that. If they don't like it, they >can either put up ($$) or shut up, in my opinion. Tell them to start their >own damn list if they don't like it. See how long they spend the time. I >wouldn't put up with that in my list, and I haven't invested a cent! I make >it quite clear to my subscribers what is acceptable to ME, and they must >abide by that or unsubscribe (or I'll do it for them). It's YOUR list, >Jerry, in every conceivable way. I suggest that you tell us how it's going >to be, and anyone who doesn't like it can take a hike." Well now, I may be something of a bumpkin, but aren't quite a few members of the list also customers? I know I have been, and expect to be again. "Take a hike"? Not a good advertising slogan. Up to this time I haven't cared either way about advertising on PRR-Talk, and the delete key works fine for EBAY messages. And I find product announcements to be quite handy. But if a listmeister becomes a dictator I'm pulling up stakes and heading for friendlier territory, no matter what the list. That's all folks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:06:25 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Mr. Keely's Take(reply) Sir, I need some clarification of the some of the comments you have made. To start with, your statements in the first paragraph after the first sentence could use a some explaining to shed more light on what you are trying to say. Perhaps some facts would clear up the generalities of your statments. I am at a loss of what "attitudes" were reflected by Mr. Keely's notes that could have a concern to you 20 years ago. I see nothing in the notes to be concerned about today. As for the society being disdainful of modeling, I can not agree with that at all. I joined the society to learn more about the PRR, and to enhance my modeling. I am accomplishing both having been a member. Mr. Orr, I look at the Keystone and see the very best periodical published by a non profit railroad society. I have been a member of about a third of the other societies at one time or another, and the only other one I found that came close was the Streamliner, of the UP society, and they have a favorable relationship with Uncle Pete! I don't think any of the societies I have belonged to surpassed our society in promoting modeling, but I can sure name several that were alot worse! Lets not forget we have a volunteer organization, and considering that, our society really has alot going for it. I am of the thought that if someone feels they have the right to complain, they also have the obligation to roll up their sleves and get in to help make things better. Mr. Orr, I have heard your gripe, in the future I would like to see your name in the Keystone connected to something you have helped with to make the society better. Let's not tear things down, lets build them up, and continue to explore and document the late great PRR. regards, Doug SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > I have been a member of the PRRT&HS for nearly 20 years. The attitude > reflected in the notes from Mr. Keely have been of concern to me since day > one. The PRRT&HS to the best of my knowledge is alone as an RR historical > society in its open disdainment of modeling. The PRRT&HS BOD, it seems to > me, actually takes pride in not addressing the needs and desires of the > modelers among its membership. > > Just look at the Keystone. On rare occasions there will be a review of a > model, usually high priced brass with extremely limited production. The > model room at the convention is generally very limited in number of entries > -- almost an after thought. The BOD has steadfastly refused to participate > in the production of special cars as a Society project. They have on > occassion provided historical and technical information to manufactures. > According to my sources, John Teichmoller series on PRR hoppers was first > offered to the Keystone for publication and was refused as being too modeling > oriented. > > This dose not mean I am in favor of starting a PRR modeling society ala the > Santa Fe disaster. But it does mean I believe the membership of the PRRT&HS > needs to work to change the complexion of the Society to be all inclusive of > historians and modelers. Both need to be tolerant of the other and cognizant > of the needs and wishes of each other. > > It has been 31 years since the PRR died. Many of the current members and > future members were not even born when the last PRR train was called. I am > of the opinion that the BOD has yet to realize this and see the need to > change if the PRRT&HS is to continue as the preeminent organization it is. > > Just my 2 cents. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". 0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 23:25:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mr. Keely's Take & Modeling From: "Doug and Marianne" I think that modeling is not purposely overlooked by the PRRT&HS Board. The model room at the convention is a good indication of what members want. It has been lightly populated with models in some recent years, but this year there was a fair amount. My only real complaint with the organization is the lack of outreach to members to participate in the organization other than just attending the annual convention as a spectator. I would like to see more outreach such as requesting presentations (who would one contact if one wanted to do a program?). I think that there should be more and shorter sessions that reflect the members interest. But that means that if you are not happy with the content of the programs, you should propose to do programs or write articles for the Keystone. I did find out that Ivan Franz is in charge of programs for next years convention, an I will be proposing to do three programs, including one on modeling the PRR in N Scale. We can't rely on others to make changes that we want, but we can make changes by participating ourselves. Doug Nelson Mill Valley, CA Interested in historical research and modeling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 10:46:51 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for List /Talk Services BPX29@aol.com offers these comments: > Rather interesting commentary from a list member earlier (or was it Commodore > "Public Be Damned" Vanderbilt?). Rather harser verbage than I care to hear > from my business affiliates. To wit, in part : > "And yet, I OWN THE LIST. I can do WHATEVER I WANT....and generally act in a > completely autocratic manner. If I don't like a subscriber for any reason, I > can arbitrarily cut them off, and there's nothing they can do about it!" I think that you have totally mis-intepreted Jerry's message. I believe he was simply stating what he could do if he wanted to be a tyrant. However, these are things that Jerry has not done because he is not a tyrant. He has bent over backwards to try to please all subscriber's wishes and is far more patient and gracious to his subscribers that I could ever be. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] PRRTHS Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 08:59:54 -0700 I have been the member of a number of organizations of varying sizes in which members have a tendency to criticize those who are atempting to lead. I have found that many individuals complain about what the group, particularly the leaders, does or doesn't do. As member of the PRRT&HS, I would like to say a few things that are meant as encouragement and not criticism. Please remember that the individuals that produce the Keystone are volunteers. A lot of work goes into producing the magazine with no profit to individuals doing the work. I have always felt that unless one is contributing to an effort in a constructive manner he should not contribute in a critical one either. Suggestions not critisizms are helpful. It is a society with ELECTED officers. If you would like to see something done. Make the effort to do it. If someone denies you the right to do it then complain to the other members and organize an effort to get the project done. If necessary ELECT someone, or run yourself, and get it done. Remember that sometimes the officers do not want to do something becuase they have seen the effort fail before. A couple years ago I was trying to organize support for moving the H21 hopper from cresson to the museum. I was miffed that a society leader was not encouraging although willing to let me advertise in the Keystone, free of'course. He told me the society members were not that supportive in a previous effort and just a handful of them, himself included, ended up doing all the work. Eventually the work became overwhelming and the project fell through. I our own list here, despite much verbal support, we were unable to sustain enough financial support to preserve the X 23. An example of how sometimes support isn't all that you think it is. I encourage you to set forth a proposal in which you can participate and organize support. Lead out and if there is enough interest and support I have no doubts you will succeed, if you want it bad enough. If the society leaders obstruct your efforts let us on the list know. We can organize a letter writing campaign to the leaders that this is what we want. I am the only member of our local group (california) of four members of the PRRT&HS on the internet. Believe me if you need the support I can multipliy this one subscriber to PRR-talk to four of PRRT&HS. Talk to the editor and ask to enter your modeling ideas. I think you will be suprised at the support. Of'course be willing to do the effort yourself and not ask him to do it. He has enough work to do already. Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Interested in any information or photos of the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] X-23 aquisition and restoration Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 09:04:35 -0700 I know the project to get the X-23 fell through some time ago. I had my check returned. Jerry do you recall how much total you had in financial contributions from the PRR-talk? Does anyone know the location of the car is at this point? Is anyone still interested in this project? Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Interested in any info or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 08:50:12 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRTHS Greg, Very well put. Thank you. Doug Greg Stone wrote: > > I have been the member of a number of organizations of varying sizes in > which members have a tendency to criticize those who are atempting to lead. > I have found that many individuals complain about what the group, > particularly the leaders, does or doesn't do. As member of the PRRT&HS, I > would like to say a few things that are meant as encouragement and not > criticism. > Please remember that the individuals that produce the Keystone are > volunteers. A lot of work goes into producing the magazine with no profit to > individuals doing the work. > I have always felt that unless one is contributing to an effort in a > constructive manner he should not contribute in a critical one either. > Suggestions not critisizms are helpful. It is a society with ELECTED > officers. If you would like to see something done. Make the effort to do it. > If someone denies you the right to do it then complain to the other members > and organize an effort to get the project done. If necessary ELECT someone, > or run yourself, and get it done. > Remember that sometimes the officers do not want to do something becuase > they have seen the effort fail before. A couple years ago I was trying to > organize support for moving the H21 hopper from cresson to the museum. I was > miffed that a society leader was not encouraging although willing to let me > advertise in the Keystone, free of'course. He told me the society members > were not that supportive in a previous effort and just a handful of them, > himself included, ended up doing all the work. Eventually the work became > overwhelming and the project fell through. > I our own list here, despite much verbal support, we were unable to > sustain enough financial support to preserve the X 23. An example of how > sometimes support isn't all that you think it is. > I encourage you to set forth a proposal in which you can participate and > organize support. Lead out and if there is enough interest and support I > have no doubts you will succeed, if you want it bad enough. > If the society leaders obstruct your efforts let us on the list know. We > can organize a letter writing campaign to the leaders that this is what we > want. I am the only member of our local group (california) of four members > of the PRRT&HS on the internet. Believe me if you need the support I can > multipliy this one subscriber to PRR-talk to four of PRRT&HS. > Talk to the editor and ask to enter your modeling ideas. I think you > will be suprised at the support. Of'course be willing to do the effort > yourself and not ask him to do it. He has enough work to do already. > > Greg Stone > PRRT&HS member > Interested in any information or photos of the Renovo Yards > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:19:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for List /Talk Services Bob and folks, I don't think I've misinterpreted anything. On the contrary, these comments were not credited to Jerri, nor did he make them. They are, as I noted, excerps from a message TO Jerri from a listmember offering his friendly advice. The fact that Jerri does not operate this way is why I remain on his list and plan to do further business with his retail operation. The intent of my message was to offer a different perspective from the rather heavy tone carried in the listmembers message. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Barry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:19:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for List /Talk Services Bob and folks, I don't think I've misinterpreted anything. On the contrary, these comments were not credited to Jerri, nor did he make them. They are, as I noted, excerps from a message TO Jerri from a listmember offering his friendly advice. The fact that Jerri does not operate this way is why I remain on his list and plan to do further business with his retail operation. The intent of my message was to offer a different perspective from the rather heavy tone carried in the listmembers message. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Barry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:19:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for List /Talk Services Bob and folks, I don't think I've misinterpreted anything. On the contrary, these comments were not credited to Jerri, nor did he make them. They are, as I noted, excerps from a message TO Jerri from a listmember offering his friendly advice. The fact that Jerri does not operate this way is why I remain on his list and plan to do further business with his retail operation. The intent of my message was to offer a different perspective from the rather heavy tone carried in the listmembers message. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Barry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] X-23 aquisition and restoration Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:50:46 -0400 (EDT) > I know the project to get the X-23 fell through some time ago. I had > my check returned. Jerry do you recall how much total you had in financial > contributions from the PRR-talk? > Does anyone know the location of the car is at this point? > Is anyone still interested in this project? > > Greg Stone > PRRT&HS member > Interested in any info or photos on the Renovo Yards Greg, I was collecting the donations from prr-talk members for this project. We set $15 as the amount, figuring that if we got 1/2 the prr-talk membership, we'd have a substantial sum. I finally got, as I recall, only 13 or 15 checks. You could look it up in the prr-talk archives if you like, probably 1.5 to 2 years ago. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 14:15:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Mr. Keely's Take & Modeling In a message dated 09/04/1999 9:40:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, schlund@cwnet.com writes: > Again, Rich, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shoot you down here, > far from it. Still, I need to ask: when you wrote "According to my > sources...", what exactly were your sources? My source is a member of the BOD who is also a personal friend. I am not naming him as I do not have his permission to identify him. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 14:35:37 -0400 From: zak Subject: [PRR] Paying, etc. Hi. I realize that I'm just a 'lurker' here, looking for tips about Pennsy modeling, X-29 box cars, and/or anything that comes up about the Buffalo, NY area of the PRR. I fully admit that to my chagrin. I have no expertise at anything concerning the PRR, although my Dad worked for it for 40+ years back in Buffalo. I'm just looking for some tips and or sites mentioned through the e-mail that might help me put some kind of an N-scale operation together. I've been off and on this site now about three-four times, and I guess I'll have to do a disconnect again. I thought this 'talk' was supposed to be about model railroading. That seems to have been simplistic on my part, as during the past few days there has been nary a bit of e-mail concerning models, but a whole lot of BS concerning who should pay what to whom! I'm probably going to get kicked off of this forum for saying this, but WRATGAS! Either lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way. I'd rather read about modeling. Zak ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] X-23 aquisition and restoration Date: Sun, 5 Sep 99 15:37:37 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/5/99 12:04 PM, Greg Stone (gas@fastinet.net) wrote: > I know the project to get the X-23 fell through some time ago. I had >my check returned. Jerry do you recall how much total you had in financial >contributions from the PRR-talk? > Does anyone know the location of the car is at this point? >Is anyone still interested in this project? I wasn't collecting the $$$$. I "believe" Mark Bej was. I know that not much came through and the society had to forgo the car. My one BIG concept for the Cyber Chapter was to bankroll funds (dues) so that we would already have the funds when something like this comes up...snag it ASAP while you can! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying, etc. Date: Sun, 5 Sep 99 15:41:39 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/5/99 2:35 PM, zak (zak@acadia.net) wrote: >I thought this 'talk' was supposed to be about >model railroading. That seems to have been >simplistic on my part, as during the past few days >there has been nary a bit of e-mail concerning >models, but a whole lot of BS concerning who >should pay what to whom! >I'm probably going to get kicked off of this forum >for saying this, but WRATGAS! Either lead, >follow, or get the hell out of the way. >I'd rather read about modeling. Well! Seems Zak has volunteered to be co-listmeister! Zak has a point. I had asked for some suggestions with responses off-list and there has been a lot going on on-list. Furthermore, the subject of the society and their support of modeling has reared its ugly head as well. As of this point, I am working on some of the listmember's suggestions and I am formulating a plan with several longtime listmembers on enactment. Discussion can cease and desist (sp?) on list. Let's get back to the PRR, please! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 18:56:47 -0400 From: mark franke Subject: [PRR] MG Tower (New Topic) Gentleman, several members of NV Ntrak and myself are starting a modular project of The Curve to Galitzen. I'm looking for 4 view photos of MG tower and Alto tower or a copy of any drawings that may be avilable. Also does anyone in the Altoona area know if there is a way to obtain permision to get close enough to MG tower to legally take photos. Thanks Mark Franke MD N Scale SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] MG Tower (New Topic) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:45:18 -0400 I believe MG has been torn down. Anyone know for sure? Roy Breon Pittsford, NY roybreon@netzero.net -----Original Message----- From: mark franke To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999 7:11 PM Subject: [PRR] MG Tower (New Topic) >Gentleman, >several members of NV Ntrak and myself are starting a modular project of >The Curve to Galitzen. I'm looking for 4 view photos of MG tower and >Alto tower or a copy of any drawings that may be avilable. Also does >anyone in the Altoona area know if there is a way to obtain permision to >get close enough to MG tower to legally take photos. >Thanks >Mark Franke MD >N Scale SPF > ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 22:36:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Mr. Keely's Take(reply) Doug and All. I don't wish to perpetuate this, but I started it on a positive note, I think our good friend Rich Orr did also but I feel I must interject. I agree with Rich and I did not find anything that I felt needed to be elaborated on regarding Mr. Keely's post. I think as a matter of fact that there is an attitude problem within the society and it stinks. Let's call it a decadence. I will site a good example later. Doug writes: << Mr. Orr, I look at the Keystone and see the very best periodical published by a non profit railroad society. >> I wished I could agree with you but I don't. Let me ask you (Doug) have you read the Warbonnet?, or perhaps the CNW's Quarterly? They are excellent, I buy them often (over the counter I might add) and find them very informative and well written on subjects that often answer questions regarding general information the Keystone doesn't address. And remember I don't have to belong to their historical society, that is a huge plus. If they are full of articles on China and Silverware I don't have to buy them. The PRRTH&S is out of touch with the modeler and they break no bones about it. I am reminded they are not a modeling society and don't wish to be, I got the message years ago. Let me remind you all of a letter that was published years ago that when a question was ask regarding an EMD GP9, GP-35 or whatever diesel it was regarding his (the writer) wish to model it more accurately that the answer came back that the PRR did not classify their engines by the EMD designation and that was his answer. Why do that to the poor guy and why print the reply? Decadence! Beyond arrogance! << I don't think any of the societies I have belonged to surpassed our society in promoting modeling, but I can sure name several that were a lot worse! >> Show me, don't tell me. Show me one issue of the Keystone where the photo's of the models were published! Then go look at the Q's, CNW's, SF's after convention quarterly magazine that didn't! Doug wake up! <> Rich and all, I don't think you are obligated to any part of the PRRT&HS, as Doug says it is a volunteer organization and if you pay your dues then you have done your part, by their charter! Making things better requires change and that is not going to happen in the historical society until it's BOD has it on the ropes and ask for the help. They don't want change, that was clear in Mr. Keely's post. Compromise exist only when both sides are willing to give. We here on this list could make the Society better, they are not willing to commit and until they are there will be no compromise. Excuse me for going on but we have fought this battle before. Rich makes very valid points, not generalities and he and I only disagree on the need for a PRRM&HS. Rich, you and I can reach a compromise can't we. 3^) Greg Martin Still keepin' it polished ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 22:14:41 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] MG Tower From: "Doug and Marianne" >I believe MG has been torn down. Anyone know for sure? NO! MG Tower is still there, alive and well, at least for the moment. We visited MG a week ago today (Sunday after the convention). The road is gated but the gate was open, there were no "no trespassing" signs, so we just drove right in. You can also hike, it would probably take about 45 minutes to hike in from Sugar Run Road. I am told that Conrail/NS police will issue tickets but we didn't run into any. The road could be a little soft in wet weather, but it was fine when we were there. We saw several trains pass the tower and you can hear trains climbing from Altoona on their way to Horse Curve. An underpowered westbound mail train took forever to reach MG from Altoona, while eastbound Amtrak waited for it to clear the interlocking. The crew requested helpers at Alto tower, but none were available so they were told to "do the best you can." The interlocking has PRR signal bridges on each side with the large targets. The tower has not been manned since the Galitzen tunnel clearance project was completed several years ago but is does house equipment (air compressors?) for the interlocking with is now remotely controlled. I believe that it was on Conrail's hit list, but for whatever reason no action has been taken yet. Some replacement structure would be needed to house the equipment. Perhaps NS will reevaluate its demise, but don't count on it. The tower has always been one of my favorites due to its isolated location. It was built in 1944 to help move war-time traffic. Although it is of modern brick construction, its 8-sided design recalls some of the early PRR stone towers that once existed in the area. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:19:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Paying for List /Talk Services Bob and folks, I don't think I've misinterpreted anything. On the contrary, these comments were not credited to Jerri, nor did he make them. They are, as I noted, excerps from a message TO Jerri from a listmember offering his friendly advice. The fact that Jerri does not operate this way is why I remain on his list and plan to do further business with his retail operation. The intent of my message was to offer a different perspective from the rather heavy tone carried in the listmembers message. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Barry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 07:13:08 -0400 From: Chris Behe Subject: [PRR] MG Tower --=====================_964832==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark Franke wrote: Gentleman, several members of NV Ntrak and myself are starting a modular project of The Curve to Galitzen. I'm looking for 4 view photos of MG tower and Alto tower or a copy of any drawings that may be avilable. Also does anyone in the Altoona area know if there is a way to obtain permision to get close enough to MG tower to legally take photos. Thanks Mark Franke MD N Scale SPF First of all, there is currently no legal way to get to MG Tower. Two recommendations for photos. First is to attend Altoona Railfest on Oct 2&3. You will have to ride the excurstion train and will (as long as there are no other trains blocking your view) get 3 views of the tower. Visit the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum web site at http://www.railroadcity.com /railroad/index.htm or the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS web site at http://www.trainweb.org/horses hoecurve-nrhs . Second alternative, I currently have 3 photos of Penn Central operations at MG tower area. I plan to add them to the photograph section of the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS web site at http://www.trainweb.org/horsesh oecurve-nrhs . Give me a day or so and they will be available for viewing. (PS, they were taken by Chapter Historian David Seidel.) The tower view is the same in both photos but they all give an idea of the landscape, etc. Horseshoe Curve Chapter, National Railway Historical Society PO Box 1361 Altoona, PA 16603 __________________________________________ Editor of "The Coal Bucket" and web page Chris Behe, 955 Southgate Drive State College, PA 16801 www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurv e-nrhs cjb3@psu.edu __________________________________________ --=====================_964832==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mark Franke wrote: 
Gentleman,
several members of NV Ntrak and myself are starting a modular project of
The Curve to Galitzen. I'm looking for 4 view photos of MG tower and
Alto tower or a copy of any drawings that may be avilable. Also does
anyone in the Altoona area know if there is a way to obtain permision to
get close enough to MG tower to legally take photos.
Thanks
Mark Franke MD
N Scale SPF

First of all, there is currently no legal way to get to MG Tower.  Two recommendations for photos.   First is to attend Altoona Railfest on Oct 2&3.  You will have to ride the excurstion train and will (as long as there are no other trains blocking your view) get 3 views of the tower.  Visit the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum web site at http://www.railroadcity.com/railroad/index.htm or the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS web site at http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs .

Second alternative, I currently have 3 photos of Penn Central operations at MG tower area.  I plan to add them to the photograph section of the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS web site at http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs .  Give me a day or so and they will be available for viewing.  (PS, they were taken by Chapter Historian David Seidel.)  The tower view is the same in both photos but they all give an idea of the landscape, etc.


Horseshoe Curve Chapter,
National Railway Historical Society
PO Box 1361
Altoona, PA 16603
__________________________________________

Editor of "The Coal Bucket" and web page
Chris Behe,
955 Southgate Drive
State College, PA 16801

www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs

cjb3@psu.edu
__________________________________________

--=====================_964832==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 07:18:08 -0400 From: Chris Behe Subject: [PRR] MT Tower - 2 --=====================_1264575==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Roy Breon wrote: I believe MG has been torn down. Anyone know for sure? As far as I know, MG is still up. MO at Cresson has been torn down. AR is still up, Alto is in operation. That is it in the Altoona area. RE NTRAK I also forgot to ask Mark Franke where he was from and where the group building the Ntrak module was located. Horseshoe Curve Chapter, National Railway Historical Society PO Box 1361 Altoona, PA 16603 __________________________________________ Editor of "The Coal Bucket" and web page Chris Behe, 955 Southgate Drive State College, PA 16801 www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurv e-nrhs cjb3@psu.edu __________________________________________ --=====================_1264575==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Roy Breon wrote:
I believe MG has been torn down. Anyone know for sure?

As far as I know, MG is still up.  MO at Cresson has been torn down.  AR is still up, Alto is in operation.  That is it in the Altoona area.


RE NTRAK

I also forgot to ask Mark Franke where he was from and where the group building the Ntrak module was located.






Horseshoe Curve Chapter,
National Railway Historical Society
PO Box 1361
Altoona, PA 16603
__________________________________________

Editor of "The Coal Bucket" and web page
Chris Behe,
955 Southgate Drive
State College, PA 16801

www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs

cjb3@psu.edu
__________________________________________

--=====================_1264575==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 08:24:27 -0400 From: jpbtrans Subject: Re: [PRR] MG Tower Does anybody have any information on the tower that use to be between "MG" and the Curve? There are some pictures of it around. We were also at the PRR convention, and people were talking about going to "MG" for pictures. Doug and Marianne wrote: > > >I believe MG has been torn down. Anyone know for sure? > > NO! MG Tower is still there, alive and well, at least for the moment. We > visited MG a week ago today (Sunday after the convention). The road is > gated but the gate was open, there were no "no trespassing" signs, so we > just drove right in. You can also hike, it would probably take about 45 > minutes to hike in from Sugar Run Road. I am told that Conrail/NS police > will issue tickets but we didn't run into any. The road could be a little > soft in wet weather, but it was fine when we were there. We saw several > trains pass the tower and you can hear trains climbing from Altoona on their > way to Horse Curve. An underpowered westbound mail train took forever to > reach MG from Altoona, while eastbound Amtrak waited for it to clear the > interlocking. The crew requested helpers at Alto tower, but none were > available so they were told to "do the best you can." The interlocking has > PRR signal bridges on each side with the large targets. > > The tower has not been manned since the Galitzen tunnel clearance project > was completed several years ago but is does house equipment (air > compressors?) for the interlocking with is now remotely controlled. I > believe that it was on Conrail's hit list, but for whatever reason no action > has been taken yet. Some replacement structure would be needed to house the > equipment. Perhaps NS will reevaluate its demise, but don't count on it. > > The tower has always been one of my favorites due to its isolated location. > It was built in 1944 to help move war-time traffic. Although it is of > modern brick construction, its 8-sided design recalls some of the early PRR > stone towers that once existed in the area. > > Doug Nelson > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 08:53:52 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEF845.58035D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen, Guess I fall into the "silent majority". I was a member of the = PRRT&HS a few years back (early 90's) and dropped my membership after 5 = years. Although I had requested information a number of times, with one = exception (which was an address to an individual who chose not to = "inform" me) ALL requests were ignored! Further, the publication in my opinion, was becoming less orientated to = the modeler, and therefore no longer of much value to me. (I can not see = the china, menues and such in an HO diner.) Please, don't get me wrong, = there were some fine articles (the article on Decapods 1988 was supurb) = but it no longer was what I wanted, so I allowed my membership to = expire. =20 Two years after the lapse, I received a correspondence from the = organization, why did I drop and would I consider re-joining. Gave their = message the same "consideration" they gave mine, the old circular file. = Maybe PRRT&H is fine for those who appreciate the fellowship a = convention offers, but I just like to add the Pennsy flavor to my model = railroad, I am a lonewolf. Apologies if this offends some, but I had to = get out of the shadows and add my 2 cents. Thanks, Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEF845.58035D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen,
    Guess I fall into = the "silent=20 majority". I was a member of the PRRT&HS a few years back (early = 90's) and=20 dropped my membership after 5 years. Although I had requested = information a=20 number of times, with one exception (which was an address to an = individual who=20 chose not to "inform" me) ALL requests were ignored!
Further, the publication in my opinion, = was=20 becoming less orientated to the modeler, and therefore no longer of much = value=20 to me. (I can not see the china, menues and such in an HO diner.)  = Please,=20 don't get me wrong, there were some fine articles (the article on = Decapods 1988=20 was supurb) but it no longer was what I wanted, so I allowed my = membership to=20 expire.   
    Two years after the = lapse, I=20 received a correspondence from the organization, why did I drop and = would I=20 consider re-joining. Gave their message the same "consideration" they = gave mine,=20 the old circular file. Maybe PRRT&H is fine for those who appreciate = the=20 fellowship a convention offers, but I just like to add the Pennsy flavor = to my=20 model railroad, I am a lonewolf. Apologies if this offends some, but I = had to=20 get out of the shadows and add my 2 cents.
 
Thanks,
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEF845.58035D80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: RE: [PRR] MG Tower Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:32:53 -0400 Get Walt Berko's PENNSYLVANIAN(part three) cab ride video. This cab ride is real time from Huntingdon to Johnstown, the train goes fairly slow past MG. Call Railroad Video Productions at: 1-800-258-4546 -Josh Trower Mark Franke wrote: Gentleman, several members of NV Ntrak and myself are starting a modular project of The Curve to Galitzen. I'm looking for 4 view photos of MG tower and Alto tower or a copy of any drawings that may be avilable. Also does anyone in the Altoona area know if there is a way to obtain permision to get close enough to MG tower to legally take photos. Thanks Mark Franke MD N Scale SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:37:14 EDT Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] MG Tower For those folks looking for a good view of MG in its current 1998 configuration. Digital Image Works video "Conrail Horseshoe Curve Helpers/OBP-2" has it. Views both east, west and south exposures with west and east signal bridges in the plant. The "NEW" MG metal relay box on the east side of the plant is a contrast to the 1944 architecture of the original MG. Plus you get a couple to CONRAIL east and west bound freights with helpers hammering by. Nice thing with the video you won't have to trespass and fear the NS police!!!!!! www.DIGITALIMAGEWORKS.com Cheers Brad Bower Digital Image Works ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] MG Tower (New Topic) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 99 09:50:13 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/5/99 7:45 PM, Roy Breon (roybreon@netzero.net) wrote: >I believe MG has been torn down. Anyone know for sure? > It was supposed to be razed by last March, but I know it wasn't. As I recall, it was still standing in July. Peter Barton: You there? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:10:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Mr. Keely's Take(reply) In a message dated 09/05/1999 10:36:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN writes: > Excuse me for going on but we have fought this battle before. Rich makes > very valid points, not generalities and he and I only disagree on the need > for a PRRM&HS. Rich, you and I can reach a compromise can't we. 3^) > Greg: I have no doubt we can reach a compromise. While I would prefer to see changes made to the PRRT&HS, if that cannot be done within a reasonable time frame, I have no qualms about supporting a parallel organization dedicated to modeling the PRR. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:21:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: The Society I have to put in my two cents worth regarding the Society and its relationship with modelers. First, I have made two requests for drawings of various decapod systems. Both were filled my Mr. Keely. It took awhile, but as he informed me, there is no catalogue of the materials the Society has and he had to find, and then print in full size, the requested drawings. He knew full well I was using the plans for modeling. Second, you may or may not remember from previous posts that I have been trying for two years to get Soundtraxx interested in manufacturing a sound chip for decapods. Earlier this year I sent a request to the Board, at Chuck Blardone's suggestion, asking them to allow Soundtraxx to pull sounds off the PRR two CD set (if they could) and incorporate these sounds in a chip. The Board has given its approval and apparently is not going to charge Soundtraxx a fee for every chip sold. The CD set has E-, H-, I-, L- and M-Class sounds (and others I think) on them. IF Soundtraxx can pull sounds from all these engines, modelers are going to have much more realistic engines. If this ain't modeler-friendly, what is? If you have ever been on a Board of Directors (I am/have been on 3) you know there is no way the Board will ever make everyone happy. I also guarantee you the fastest way to get the Board members to ignore you is to bitch at them about this or that. And the more you bitch the more you will be ignored, in most cases. The squeeking wheel does not always get the grease. So, be patient. Be constructive. Don't be confrontational. Don't bitch. Offer to assist in any way you can. Send the Society a donation above and beyond the dues. Tell them to use the funds however they want, or specify a particular project. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:23:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS From: "Doug and Marianne" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3019454588_188735_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People don't seem to get it. This is a volunteer organization not a charitable service organization. Membership will get out of it what membership is willing to put in. I hear alot of people complaining about what they are not getting from the society, but what are they contributing? Not even annual dues in some cases. If no one else volunteers to answer questions and research drawing requests the folks that receive the requests are overtaxed and eventually can't handle the load. Instead of bitching and moaning GET INVOLVED. This thread is bad enough to give a good argument for censoring inappropriate posts. This is our hobby and I choose to engage in it for enjoyment. Others seem to look at it as another avenue to express everything that is wrong in their world. Sometimes you should just keep it to yourself instead of trying to make other people miserable. ENOUGH!! Doug Nelson. ---------- From: "Walt Prusick" To: "Pennsy Talk" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Date: Mon, Sep 6, 1999, 8:53 AM Gentlemen, Guess I fall into the "silent majority". I was a member of the PRRT&HS a few years back (early 90's) and dropped my membership after 5 years. Although I had requested information a number of times, with one exception (which was an address to an individual who chose not to "inform" me) ALL requests were ignored! Further, the publication in my opinion, was becoming less orientated to the modeler, and therefore no longer of much value to me. (I can not see the china, menues and such in an HO diner.) Please, don't get me wrong, there were some fine articles (the article on Decapods 1988 was supurb) but it no longer was what I wanted, so I allowed my membership to expire. Two years after the lapse, I received a correspondence from the organization, why did I drop and would I consider re-joining. Gave their message the same "consideration" they gave mine, the old circular file. Maybe PRRT&H is fine for those who appreciate the fellowship a convention offers, but I just like to add the Pennsy flavor to my model railroad, I am a lonewolf. Apologies if this offends some, but I had to get out of the shadows and add my 2 cents. Thanks, Walt Prusick --MS_Mac_OE_3019454588_188735_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS People don't seem to get it.  This is a volunteer organization not a c= haritable service organization.  Membership will get out of it what mem= bership is willing to put in.  I hear alot of people complaining about = what they are not getting from the society, but what are they contributing? =  Not even annual dues in some cases.  

If no one else volunteers to answer questions and research drawing requests= the folks that receive the requests are overtaxed and eventually can't hand= le the load.  Instead of bitching and moaning GET INVOLVED.  

This thread is bad enough to give a good argument for censoring inappropria= te posts.  This is our hobby and I choose to engage in it for enjoyment= .  Others seem to look at it as another avenue to express everything th= at is wrong in their world.  Sometimes you should just keep it to yours= elf instead of trying to make other people miserable.

ENOUGH!!

Doug Nelson.

----------
From: "Walt Prusick" <walpru@stargate.net>
To: "Pennsy Talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS
Date: Mon, Sep 6, 1999, 8:53 AM


Gentlemen,
    Guess I fall into the "silent majority". = I was a member of the PRRT&HS a few years back (early 90's) and dropped = my membership after 5 years. Although I had requested information a number o= f times, with one exception (which was an address to an individual who chose= not to "inform" me) ALL requests were ignored!
Further, the publication in my opinion, was becoming less orientated to the= modeler, and therefore no longer of much value to me. (I can not see the ch= ina, menues and such in an HO diner.)  Please, don't get me wrong, ther= e were some fine articles (the article on Decapods 1988 was supurb) but it n= o longer was what I wanted, so I allowed my membership to expire.  &nbs= p; 
    Two years after the lapse, I received a corresponde= nce from the organization, why did I drop and would I consider re-joining. G= ave their message the same "consideration" they gave mine, the old= circular file. Maybe PRRT&H is fine for those who appreciate the fellow= ship a convention offers, but I just like to add the Pennsy flavor to my mod= el railroad, I am a lonewolf. Apologies if this offends some, but I had to g= et out of the shadows and add my 2 cents.
 
Thanks,
Walt Prusick

--MS_Mac_OE_3019454588_188735_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:41:59 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Mr. Keely's Take(reply) Hi Greg, Richard, Doug, and list members, Greg Martin wrote: > Rich and all, I don't think you are obligated to any part of the PRRT&HS, as > Doug says it is a volunteer organization and if you pay your dues then you > have done your part, by their charter! Making things better requires change > and that is not going to happen in the historical society until it's BOD has > it on the ropes and ask for the help. They don't want change, that was clear > in Mr. Keely's post. Compromise exist only when both sides are willing to > give. We here on this list could make the Society better, they are not > willing to commit and until they are there will be no compromise. I'm afraid I disagree here. Once you "pay your dues" in a volunteer organization, the only thing you have done is pay for the paper and postage to receive your copy of the Keystone (note you have paid for exactly that - PAPER and POSTAGE, not for any of the volunteer work and sweat that goes into it!). You also pay for the right to vote (if you choose to do so), the right to attend the convention (again, if you choose to do so), alsong with the right to run for a society elected position. In a volunteer organization, paying your dues does NOT entitle you to go to the BOD and expect them to do it YOUR way, as opposed to the way they see fit. If you want things to change, YOU will need to do at least some of the work that is required to MAKE that change happen. Greg further wrote: > Show me, don't tell me. Show me one issue of the Keystone where the > photo's of the models were published! Then go look at the Q's, CNW's, > SF's after convention quarterly magazine that didn't! Doug wake up! Yes, I have seen the model contest photos in the CNW publication, which I also buy frequently, and over the counter just like Greg does. Just liek Greg, I leave the "Silverware" issues behind on the mag rack. I have seen the photos of the model contest that are printed after their convention, and enjoyed looking at the models therein. OTOH, the Keystone typically only prints the names of the contest award winners and a short text on the type of entry it was (class, sale, category, etc.) in the "Snapper" column. Why is that? I've often thought it would be EXCELLENT to have photos of the models included as well as the text. Now we could conjecture all day here on this topic, but I'll submit that maybe SOMEONE needs to volunteer to take the photos. I've considered doing it myself in past years, but don't have the lights nor a sufficiently good macro lens for this purpose. Even if I did, hauling them from San Francisco would be a major problem. So I choose to help out in other ways. Perhaps someone geographically closer might be inclined to volunteer to do this? Greg, offer to do this, and see if Chuck Blardone will publish them in the Keystone. If you make this offer and are rebuffed, well, then I'd say you have a solid reason to grouse and gripe. But to simply put the responsibility on the BOD (all of whom are, there is that word again, VOLUNTEERS), is not a plausible approach, nor a reasonable one IMHO. Greg? Richard? Anyone else? Volunteer photographers, please! - Claus Schlund (hoping we don't melt the plastic on the contest models when the volunteer photographers are shining all those floodlights on them!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:42:00 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Hi Walt, Excerpted from what Walt wrote: > Although I had requested information a number of > times, ...snip... ALL requests were ignored! > > Further, the publication in my opinion, was becoming > less orientatedto the modeler, and therefore no longer of much value > to me ...snip again... so I allowed my membership to expire. > > Two years after the lapse, I received a correspondence from > the organization, why did I drop and would I consider re-joining. > Gave their message the same "consideration" they gave mine, the old > circular file. I understand your being disappointed that you requests went unanswered. And in the Keystone is not providing you with anything of value to you primary interest, it makes sense to allow a membership to expire. After all, the Keystone is the primary tangible benefit that remote mmbers get out of joining the society. When the correspondence arrived asking "why did I drop and would I consider re-joining", why didn't you reply and take the opportunity to state your point of view? This was a perfect chance for you to voice your dismay! Without feedback, most of us (individuals or organizations) have very little idea of how good or bad a job we are doing... you clearly had someone's ear for a minute back there when the correspondence arrived, it's too bad you chose not to take advantage of that... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Traveling by Amtrak on Horseshoe Curve Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 12:51:13 -0400 >. The most delay-prone segment of the trip >>is between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg. Arrived in Harrisburg 5 hours late; >>and upon our arrival at approx 3am, was awakened by the news that the train >>was being terminated and all passengers were instructed to board 2 buses in >>front of the terminal for bussing to the final stops. > > >What the NS has done to Amtrak passengers is criminal. But, then, so is >what they have done to ex-Conrail shippers! > >Traffic on the Curve varies considerably, although the NS bottleneck in the >Harrisburg terminal tends to make the Curve seem less-busy than it really >is. > >A trip around it, or at least TO it-as a visitor, is still well-advised. >It's a unique piece of railroading. However, photography is best >accomplished at locations near, but not necessarily at, Horseshoe Curve. > >But that's another topic. > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: RLCCR@aol.com >To: maddoxdy@enter.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com > >Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 10:36 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Traveling by Amtrak > > >>This may be a bit off of the PRR subject. 43 and 44, the "day-time" >trains, >>despite what an earlier post said, doesn't carry a sleeper; carries a >>"short-haul" bombardier coach, amfleet long-distance (leg rests) coach and >an >>amcoach w/snack bar (lots of mail roadrailer on tail from HBG-CHI). I took >>it around the curve 8/26 and yes, the curve was blocked by an eastbound >>freight. Amtraked from Downingtown to Chicago 8/26 and return 8/30. This >is >>a railfan speaking...it's a long day trip...with the NS delays. The trip >to >>Chi wasn't too bad; in fact, quite enjoyable leaving Pittsburgh in daylight >>for a change. Arrived in Chi only 90 minutes late. On the return, left >Chi >>20 minutes late, lost another 2 hours by the time we arrived in Cleveland, >>and left Pittsburgh 3 hours late. The most delay-prone segment of the trip >>is between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg. Arrived in Harrisburg 5 hours late; >>and upon our arrival at approx 3am, was awakened by the news that the train >>was being terminated and all passengers were instructed to board 2 buses in >>front of the terminal for bussing to the final stops. So much for a >restful >>coach ride. I'd recommend sticking with the 3 Rivers for its sleeper and >be >>prepared for NS delays; although I hope this situation improves before too >>many more passengers are driven away from this "service". >> >>Bob R. >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:31:40 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR society/wasFwd: Mr. Keely's Take(reply) Greg, Looking back at the reply from Mr. Keely, I still cannot detect any attitude one way or the other. Are you sure some previous bias is not shading your reading of it? I dropped the Santa Fe membership as it didn't offer some very specifics I was looking for. That however, is no reflection on the society or the people running it. The periodicals at that point were far inferior to the Keystone. I dropped the C.B.& Q. for the same reason, although the periodicals were better than the AT&SF group. I also dropped the C&O, GN, NP, SSW, BN, Frisco, and several others I can no longer remember. Non of these had the resources of the Pennsy society. And I don't remember any convention coverage in any of them! Most of the aforementioned did not print any sort of model photos of any sort or do model reviews. I kept my membership with the Southern Pacific(home town team), the UP, and the PRR societys. The UP, PRR, and the C&O were the only societies I could discover that had any depth of archives. I never was able to get any blueprints out of the UP, and the C&O had so many prints, they did not know what they had, much less have anything available. I have requested prints from the PRR archives on a couple of occasions and received what I considered a prompt delivery. I like to model from prototype data, and our society has the depth to provide that. I do not consider convention model coverage of criteria on judging how model friendly a society is. I think we have two different sets of criteria on what we consider a model friendly society. Yours might be more akin to a periodical that has content more like Mainline modeler or MR. The PRR societies involvment seems to be much deeper than that. The society has made an effort to preserve data and artifacts to document the PRR for historians and modeler for future generations, not just the present. We today are benifiting from the time and engeries expended by past members collecting and preserving what they could that was available at the time. Some examples: I understand the majority of the archives were personally collected, preserved, and donated by one individual. This person spent his own free time to hunt down archives being disposed of, and then spent more time to collect them. The H-21 at Stasburg RR is there because someone in the society persued it with conrail to make sure it wasn't scrapped. The J tower at Stasburg, same story. The Lewistown station again persured by someone that had the foresight to preserve it and also provide some place to house the archives. With out a central place to even begin to sort the archives, why even have them? We modelers today are benifiting from these efforts and more. How many societies have printed color drift cards?(two that I know of, the GN is the other). How many societies have enough archives the help the manufacturers that request data for a car, loco, or structure? Very few. Ask around to manufacturers that have produced Pennsy specific models, and you will be hard pressed to find very many at all that did not received data directly or indirectly from the Society. Look at the super highly detailed PRR locos and cars made in #1 gauge. Notice how many are Pennsy? See how few are not? Its true Pennsy sells well, but you cannot built a model of that caliber if you don't have blueprints, and very few other fallen flags have enough data that has survived. And yes, the data for the #1 gauge comes from the Society. A few other recent projects that were supplied by the Society with data: Kadee HO 2d-f8 freight truck, Pacific limited O scale H-21, Precision Scale O B6sb. Any wonder why these models look so nice? And we are benefiting from thsi as will others in the future. Under no circumstances can anyone claim that the Society is not model oriented, but it may not be in the form that every individual wants. Greg, the time may have arrived for a Pennsy modeling society, Why don't you start the new society off? It is possible that the Society is in a decline. From out here on the west coast, my thermometer is not sensitive enough to tell. However, I also have not seen others stepping up to try to fill the shoes left vacant by some of our Pillars of the society that have answered there last call. With out new people stepping in and spending their time making the Society funtion, you can kiss the Society goodbye! Selfcenteredness with the attitude of what can I get out of it with the least amount of effort put back in will insure this. I cannot fault the people who have kept the Society going at the expence of their spare time. No one is obligated to lift a finger in a volunteer organization, not unless they want it to grow and improve, or even just survive. If you can find the issue of the Keystone regarding the diesel querey, I would like to know the issue. Regards, Doug TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Doug and All. > I don't wish to perpetuate this, but I started it on a positive note, I > think our good friend Rich Orr did also but I feel I must interject. I agree > with Rich and I did not find anything that I felt needed to be elaborated on > regarding Mr. Keely's post. I think as a matter of fact that there is an > attitude problem within the society and it stinks. Let's call it a decadence. > I will site a good example later. > > Doug writes: > > << Mr. Orr, I look at the Keystone and see the very best periodical published > by a non profit railroad society. >> > > I wished I could agree with you but I don't. Let me ask you (Doug) have you > read the Warbonnet?, or perhaps the CNW's Quarterly? They are excellent, I > buy them often (over the counter I might add) and find them very informative > and well written on subjects that often answer questions regarding general > information the Keystone doesn't address. And remember I don't have to belong > to their historical society, that is a huge plus. If they are full of > articles on China and Silverware I don't have to buy them. The PRRTH&S is > out of touch with the modeler and they break no bones about it. I am > reminded they are not a modeling society and don't wish to be, I got the > message years ago. Let me remind you all of a letter that was published > years ago that when a question was ask regarding an EMD GP9, GP-35 or > whatever diesel it was regarding his (the writer) wish to model it more > accurately that the answer came back that the PRR did not classify their > engines by the EMD designation and that was his answer. Why do that to the > poor guy and why print the reply? Decadence! Beyond arrogance! > > << I don't think any of the societies I have belonged to surpassed our > society in promoting modeling, but I can sure name several that were a lot > worse! >> > > Show me, don't tell me. Show me one issue of the Keystone where the photo's > of the models were published! Then go look at the Q's, CNW's, SF's after > convention quarterly magazine that didn't! Doug wake up! > > < they also have the obligation to roll up their sleeves and get in to help > make things better. Mr. Orr, I have heard your gripe, in the future I would > like to see your name in the Keystone connected to something you have helped > with to make the society better.>> > > Rich and all, I don't think you are obligated to any part of the PRRT&HS, as > Doug says it is a volunteer organization and if you pay your dues then you > have done your part, by their charter! Making things better requires change > and that is not going to happen in the historical society until it's BOD has > it on the ropes and ask for the help. They don't want change, that was clear > in Mr. Keely's post. Compromise exist only when both sides are willing to > give. We here on this list could make the Society better, they are not > willing to commit and until they are there will be no compromise. > > Excuse me for going on but we have fought this battle before. Rich makes > very valid points, not generalities and he and I only disagree on the need > for a PRRM&HS. Rich, you and I can reach a compromise can't we. 3^) > > Greg Martin > Still keepin' it polished ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:41:29 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Decal questions Hi folks.... Ok...i have a couple of decal questions here. 1. Who makes H.O. decals with the regional assignments for PRR cabin cars ? 2. I know both Champ and Micro-scale make sets of decals for PRR F-units (EF-15 in PRR speak). But does anyone know the numbers ? I've got two F units to do. Thanks you all... Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:41:29 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Decal questions Hi folks.... Ok...i have a couple of decal questions here. 1. Who makes H.O. decals with the regional assignments for PRR cabin cars ? 2. I know both Champ and Micro-scale make sets of decals for PRR F-units (EF-15 in PRR speak). But does anyone know the numbers ? I've got two F units to do. Thanks you all... Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:41:29 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Decal questions Hi folks.... Ok...i have a couple of decal questions here. 1. Who makes H.O. decals with the regional assignments for PRR cabin cars ? 2. I know both Champ and Micro-scale make sets of decals for PRR F-units (EF-15 in PRR speak). But does anyone know the numbers ? I've got two F units to do. Thanks you all... Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Anyone have PC ETT West. Reg #3 ?? Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Gents: need some help. Actually, I need a lot of help, but that's beside the point. Does anyone have a Penn Central Western Region employee timetable #3 ** with inserts ** ? Mine feels naked without its inserts, but besides that, I'm trying to figure out as of what date did Penn Central rename the Main Line -- SC&S to the SC&S Branch. The latter name is in use in West. Reg. ETT #4. Thanks much. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:47:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Will S-E Subject: [PRR] Clearfield/Curwensville PA area questions Hello All, Spent some time on Saturday in Clearfield PA. The PC/NYC/PRR served the town and the mines in the area. I just wanted to pass along about the RJ Corman operation there. Of course being a holiday weekend it was pretty dead around the area and the yards. They have installed a nice BIG gate across both ends of the Clearfield yard and it was locked up tight. Couldnt get any pictures from the river side of the yard as the trees there are HUGE..I did glimpse quite a few (10+ units) in the yard and a number of gons there as well. Here is the question...since the Curwensville Dam went in in the 1960's does anyone have a map of the area in a digital (aka online) form which shows the trackage in the area. Or is there any online materials relevant to the area? Is there anyone on the list who is familiar with the trackage and history behind some of the lines in this region (Clearfield, Curwensville, Penfield) I have about 100 questions to ask about this area but I dont want to tie up the list. Would rather correspond with someone directly on this subject. Thanks in advance! Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:19:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Will S-E Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Steam Pics Check out http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/railthumb.cgi?railpix/ABPR/september99/09-05-99 Make sure your browser gets the whole URL. 6 nice pics of Pennsy Steam for your viewing pleasure! Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 17:42:03 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania 12-1 Pullman "Allegripus" (Plan 2410;Diagram 5) Nice photo at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/1631/trains.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 19:26:09 -0400 From: Michael Hauk Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch - Crew change points Greetings. I am considering building a model railroad based on the Elmira Branch. This is a VERY long range project that has not progressed beyond the cogitation phase. Anyway, in order to make this a manageable project, I had considered limiting my efforts to the southern portion between Newberry and Southport. However, according to Caloroso's book, many of the coal trains over the branch originated in the Clearfield area, or out of Altoona. After reading Tony Koester's editorial in the most recent MR, I started thinking about my presumed choice of "endpoints". I intend to set the era around 1940-1942, making Southport a good terminus, as the coal runs tended to stop there to be broken up into shorter chunks, as several bridges north of Southport were not able to support the weight of I1's until after 1942 or so. (According to Caloroso.) Newberry, on the other hand, may be a little problematical. My question(s) to the list are thus: Was Newberry a crew-change point for coal trains out of Altoona and/or the Clearfield area in the early 1940's? If not, would such trains still stop at Newberry for coal/water/servicing? Thanks! Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:43:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] DD-1 Questions Hi Guys, I'm in the process of purchasing a pair of Alco Models DD-1 electric's. These models were produced as they were originally built, with the roof that had an overhang, and all of the side windows rectangularly shaped. It is my intent to modify these units to model them as they would have appeared in the later stages of their careers. This would entail the removal of the roof overhang, the reshaping of the forward most side windows on each side (on both units), and the addition of "World's Fair Striping". I also intend to letter the units for the LIRR (as the only differences appear to be in the lettering, and the substitution of the LIRR logo within the Keystones on either end of the units). Now for the questions: (1) Should the roof color be Oxide Red, and everything else DGLE? (2) What colors should the roof ventilators and bell-rope standards be? (3) What would be the correct color (1939-40 era) for the "World's Fair Striping"? And, what is the configuration of these stripes in the area between the two units? Do the stripes run horizontally, or do they mimic the front-end configuration? (4) What would be the correct color for the cables associated with the 3rd rail pickup? They appear to be red in the few color photos that I have. (5) Color of the interior? (6) Color of the box-like structures, located just above the 3rd rail pickup that the cables attach to? These appear to be a rust-like color in my reference material. (7) Am I correct in assuming that the side window frames would not be painted that orange-red color, considering the 1939+ timeframe? (8) What about the handrails, some appear to be yellow while other photos seem to indicate they were painted the same as the rest of the bodywork? Would this be a timeframe related issue? Gents, any and all help would be greatly appreciated. And, please comment on any other issues pertaining to finishing the DD-1s that might come to mind, I'm all ears. Thanks. PS: I wouldn't be bothering you with all this trivia, if only I could afford one of the Railworks models. But, at three times the price, I'm going to have to be satisfied with doing the best I can with what I have. :-) Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: PRRT&HS Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:50:35 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Blardone [mailto:blardone@redrose.net] Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 9:05 PM To: Alan Buchan Subject: Re: PRRT&HS I took the liberty of discussing the current thread on PRR-Talk regarding feelings about the "Keystone" and its lack of modeling information with Chuck Blardone. I received the following reply from Chuck. The door is open gents - its time to go or get off the pot. I say if your not part of the solution -- your part of the problem. Al ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Al: Thanks for the update. I invite anyone who has a complaint about "The Keystone" to e-mail me and get it off his chest. It's been the Society's policy (which I endorse) not to compete with modeling magazines. We're trying to preserve the historical image of the railroad, while simultaneously publishing as much material that is valuable to the modeler as we can. We used to publish more loco and equipment articles than we now do, but that's only because there's no one writing them for us. I've encouraged a few fellows to write modeling-oriented right-of-way articles, but no one has submitted any. If the fellows would like to see specific subjects covered, then maybe they should write them. We have no staff writers. I'd bet that the fellows who are most vocal in their complaints have never written an article, submitted an interesting photo, a letter to the editor, or in any way contributed to the operations of the Society. The Society is, after all, a cooperative undertaking. It's easy to complain, but how about helping row the boat as you make suggestions about where we're headed? If you'd like to forward this to Jerry's group, feel free to do so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS - Chuck's e-mail address is Blardone@redrose.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: PRRT&HS Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:50:35 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Blardone [mailto:blardone@redrose.net] Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 9:05 PM To: Alan Buchan Subject: Re: PRRT&HS I took the liberty of discussing the current thread on PRR-Talk regarding feelings about the "Keystone" and its lack of modeling information with Chuck Blardone. I received the following reply from Chuck. The door is open gents - its time to go or get off the pot. I say if your not part of the solution -- your part of the problem. Al ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Al: Thanks for the update. I invite anyone who has a complaint about "The Keystone" to e-mail me and get it off his chest. It's been the Society's policy (which I endorse) not to compete with modeling magazines. We're trying to preserve the historical image of the railroad, while simultaneously publishing as much material that is valuable to the modeler as we can. We used to publish more loco and equipment articles than we now do, but that's only because there's no one writing them for us. I've encouraged a few fellows to write modeling-oriented right-of-way articles, but no one has submitted any. If the fellows would like to see specific subjects covered, then maybe they should write them. We have no staff writers. I'd bet that the fellows who are most vocal in their complaints have never written an article, submitted an interesting photo, a letter to the editor, or in any way contributed to the operations of the Society. The Society is, after all, a cooperative undertaking. It's easy to complain, but how about helping row the boat as you make suggestions about where we're headed? If you'd like to forward this to Jerry's group, feel free to do so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- PS - Chuck's e-mail address is Blardone@redrose.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 23:51:01 -0400 From: jpbtrans Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: PRRT&HS Chuck, I want to say how much I enjoy the "The Keystone". There are some subjects that aren't as interesting to me then others, but you get that in any magazine. It would be nice if once in a while, there might be something about modeling, having to do with a story in the "The Keystone". It doesn't have to be the on going 14 part story on whatever. Just a one or two night type of modeling. If I may add in here and on a different subject, the just ended PRR Convention in Altoona. Two ideas: 1. How about different colored name tags. This was my first time and I was a little lost. Say everyone from Buffalo wore blue tags, maybe we would find a friend. 2. My wife got somewhat tired waiting for me to get out of a talk so she could go see the sights. Any chance of adding a non-rail event every day? Alan Buchan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Blardone [mailto:blardone@redrose.net] > Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 9:05 PM > To: Alan Buchan > Subject: Re: PRRT&HS > > I took the liberty of discussing the current thread on PRR-Talk regarding > feelings about the "Keystone" and its lack of modeling information with > Chuck Blardone. I received the following reply from Chuck. The door is open > gents - its time to go or get off the pot. I say if your not part of the > solution -- your part of the problem. > > Al > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Al: > > Thanks for the update. I invite anyone who has a complaint about "The > Keystone" > to e-mail me and get it off his chest. It's been the Society's policy (which > I > endorse) not to compete with modeling magazines. We're trying to preserve > the > historical image of the railroad, while simultaneously publishing as much > material that is valuable to the modeler as we can. We used to publish more > loco > and equipment articles than we now do, but that's only because there's no > one > writing them for us. I've encouraged a few fellows to write > modeling-oriented > right-of-way articles, but no one has submitted any. If the fellows would > like > to see specific subjects covered, then maybe they should write them. We have > no > staff writers. I'd bet that the fellows who are most vocal in their > complaints > have never written an article, submitted an interesting photo, a letter to > the > editor, or in any way contributed to the operations of the Society. The > Society > is, after all, a cooperative undertaking. It's easy to complain, but how > about > helping row the boat as you make suggestions about where we're headed? > > If you'd like to forward this to Jerry's group, feel free to do so. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > PS - Chuck's e-mail address is Blardone@redrose.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal questions Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:28:09 -0500 Hank--Try Champ HC-221N for cabin decals with the regions and Champ EH-78F for the EF-15's. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:04:15 -0400 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch - Crew change points >My question(s) to the list are thus: Was Newberry a crew-change point for >coal trains out of Altoona and/or the Clearfield area in the early 1940's? >If not, would such trains still stop at Newberry for coal/water/servicing? Clearfield crews actually worked out of Osecola Mills--that's where the yard & enginehouse were. They usually ran to Tyrone (Vail, Park interlocking), tho sometimes would go into Altoona, then they returned to Osceola. I am not sure where the road crews originated that would pick up Osceola coal at Vail and take it to Southport via the Bald Eagle branch, Lock Haven, and Newberry. Maybe someone else can tell us. But I do recall an old time engineer telling me that in steam days, when he was called for a Southport train out of Altoona, he could usually make Southport without outlawing. -mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:07:24 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Open Forum (Was: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS) --On Mon, Sep 6, 1999 9:23 AM -0700: > ... I hear alot of people complaining about what they are not getting from the society, but what are they contributing? Not even annual dues in some cases ... > This is a extract from the latest in my inbox in a series of messages constituting two threads that grew out of Mr. Keely's response in the controversy over the infamous "Strassner Memorandum." It is interesting that it comes around to modellers (of which I am one) b&m-ing about the society's lack (perceived or real) of concern for its modelling constituency. This, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with the issues that led to Mr. Keely's "take" ... But, to get to my point, I am forced by all this etherial debating to think to myself, "Would such a debate be going on on an "Official" list of the Society?" Of course not! So, to get back to the POINT of Mr. Keely's "take" ... let's think twice about the worth of an "official" email list, or even a Cyber Chapter. A cyber chapter would necessarily be separate from the PRR-Talk list if we ever wanted this forum to remain (a) all inclusive and (b) open and above board in our criticisms of the Society's parochialism. This is a new take for me, personally, but it's one that does seem to have merit in light of the apparent attitude of Socity "establishment" that critics are somehow disloyal (for that assessment, read Mr. Keely's "take" in the context of Mr. Strassner's original broadside and the statement of purpose for his PRR-FAX list ...). Unlike some who have posted their opinions here, my reasons for joining the PRRT&HS are more than single-purpose. I model the Pennsy, but also enjoy most of the historical and technical aspects of that RR. As a minor functionary and sometimes-pompous spokesperson for another non-profit railroad historical and preservation society, I also understand the reasons why societies such as this have many lines of defense against sudden change; in order to affect change, one must work from within after having gotten there thru long, drudging service ... much like the lines of promotion from the original Pennsy, I'd say. I don't necessarily like it, but don't have the personal time get involved to work from within the system. So, I bide my time, understand that there's a "greater good" there somewhere, and look to other sources for modeling info when the Society lets me down. Life is too short and we already HAVE a Cyber Chapter ... virtually. Interesting concept, that. Virtual Reality. Wonder if it would sell ... Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: A night at Enola (epilogue) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:16:19 -0400 Glad to see that my tabulation on a night at Enola is being well received. If it wasn't I would not bother putting stuff like this together. In answer to your specific questions: 3 to 11 eastbound was by far the busiest. I don't think PRR intentionally "fleeted" trains to avoid passenger trains etc., that is just the way the traffic flowed. The afternoon-evening trains eastbound all had deadlines to meet at their destinations. As an example. Train SP-8 had to be in So. Philadelphia before mid-night so the perishables could be spotted at the auction. The auction started around 3 AM and if the lettuce was late for the auction, it had to sit for 24 hours until the next auction. Obviously the 24 hour older lettuce could not command as high a price so the PRR got some nasty phone calls. Similarly for the autoparts trains to Metuchin and Newark Delaware. The assembly lines used the boxcars for storage space to feed the assembly line. No box car on schedule meant the assembly line had to shut down. Getting back to Enola. The westbound freight was heaviest during C trick which meant that the motors piled up on the inspection pit for the A trick to inspect. This accounts for the huge amount of westbound freights over the horseshoe curve around daybreak. Thurlow Yard was at Chester, PA. Train TP-1 and TP-2 were Thurlow to S. Phila. and rated the 5800 most days as power. Hope this fills in some voids. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Doug Drew To: herzog1 Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 4:42 PM Subject: A night at Enola >Many thanks for your 9/2 post about the train movements east from Enola >on that winter's day. >36 freights out in an 8 hour period. Not bad... > >Was this typical of freight traffic through the day, or were freights >still 'fleeted' that late in PRR's history, and so that many freights out in >a shift was not representative of traffic on the other shifts? Would it be >wrong to assume that the 'window' of nothing outbound from 3:40 pm to >6:20 pm was to keep freights out of the way of the commuter fleet, or was >that just the way the schedules/ assignments worked out? > >By the way, where was 'Thurlow'? I have never heard of this location on >the PRR. > >-- Doug Drew > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:44:58 -0400 In addition to discussing the PRR-Talk thread re; the PRRT&HS and "The Keystone" with Chuck Blardone I also talked with Walt Keely. Posted below is his reply to me, which he in another message said could be posted to the PRR-Talk group. Al ------------------------------------------------- ----Original Message----- From: WKeely7080@aol.com [mailto:WKeely7080@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 12:34 AM To: abbuchan@familyconnect.net Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Since Chuck Blardone has covered the publication issue well, I will respond to the issue of requests for information. ALL requests that I have received pertaining to info from the archives has been either supplied to the requester or they have been informed that the info requested is not available. The mechanical engineer drawings from the late 1890's to 1949 are currently available from microfilm. They are a wonderful resource for modelers and historians, and help to support the 'KEYSTONE' by providing drawings for articles to be published. With 3000+ members in the Society, it is not possible to solicit orders from each member directly , but we will respond to all inquires received. In addition to the microfilm resource,there is literally tons of drawings at Lewistown still in the boxes ,as received,that need to cleaned and catalogued. We need a dedicated group of volunteers to begin the archiving task at Lewistown, and if you are willing to help, now is the time to come forward. It will be a worthwhile experience and hopefully allow the PRRT&HS archives to better meet the needs of our membership. As the process proceeds the membership will be notified as information is uncovered and made available. In summation, we are in great need of assistance and experience is not necessary, just a commitment to help. Walt Keely ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:40:11 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch - Crew change points Mike wrote: >I am considering building a model railroad based on the Elmira Branch. This >is a VERY long range project that has not progressed beyond the cogitation >phase. Way to go!!!!! >Anyway, in order to make this a manageable project, I had considered >limiting my efforts to the southern portion between Newberry and Southport. Well, if you want to model the complete picture, and you refer to Tony K's cogitations (Tony is on the NMRA Layout Design SIG list daily BTW), you are right in wanting your crews to board the loco and depart the loco at the division points. For this reason, and a number of others like the length of train, joint NYC/PRR coal ops, helpers, the terminal yard at Elmira etc, I would suggest modeling the north end of the line rather than the southern end...but its your Railroad! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 14:29:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch - Crew change points From: "Eugene Nowlan" Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: re: Elmira Branch >I would suggest modeling the north end of the line rather than the southern end...but its your Railroad! > Would you elaborate on why you recommend the Northern portion of the Elmira Branch over Williamsport to Southport? Gene Nowlan Corning, NY USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:37:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] The Rules, and how they changed Al Buchan, in a recent post, mentioned Rule 19, referring particularly to a white light on the front of a train moving at night (actually, referring particularly to the absence of such a light). Looking at the 1956 rulebook on Mark Bej's site, rule 19 is pretty short and simple; and is followed by rule 27 or some such. Looking in a 1923 rulebook, rule 19 is followed by rules 20, 20a, 21, and 21a which deal with green flags and lamps on the locomotive of all sections of a train except the last, white flags and lamps on the locomotive of an extra train. In addition, there are a number of figures (14, I think) illustrating many of the combinations of colored lights and flags one might find on trains observing rules 19 and 20 or 21. (The 20a and 21a rules authorize the suspension of 20 and/or 21 on portions of the railroad with multiple tracks, except for passenger extras.) What I'm wondering is: When did rules 20 and 21 go away? When did the use of yellow markers prescribed by the 1923 version of rule 19 get simplified to the 1956 form of that rule? When was the use of colored flags discontinued? To amplify at bit, depending on circumstances, one might see 2 red, 2 yellow, or 1 of each (and those might be yellow/red or red/yellow) on the rear of a train, according to the 1923 rule 19. I'd be glad to amplify further off-list to anyone who wants it. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 14:41:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch - Crew change points From: "Jerry Britton" >From: "Eugene Nowlan" >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch - Crew change points >Date: Tue, Sep 7, 1999, 2:29 PM > > re: Elmira Branch >>I would suggest modeling the north end of the line rather than the southern > end...but its your Railroad! > > > > Would you elaborate on why you recommend the Northern portion of the Elmira > Branch over Williamsport to Southport? Yes, I'd like to hear that, too! The southern part has the wonderful helper service and some excellent scenic spots. Depending on the era, you can also throw in some lumbering. The northern part, along the lake (Seneca?) has two wonderful high bridges spanning gorges. That is a plus for the north! John Keel sent me color copies of photos of one of them before he passed away. Now that I think of it, Elmira would be good to model as well. That, too, is north of Southport. Hmmm, how 'bout Williamsport to Elmira? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:25:52 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Modeling the Elmira Branch (long) - Was Crew change points >Gene Nowlan asked (and Jerry seconded!) >Would you elaborate on why you recommend the Northern portion of the Elmira >Branch over Williamsport to Southport? Well, I refer you to my message "Crisis of Faith" of 2/8/99 in the archives where I said in part: What's so cool about the Elmira Branch? Lots! Lets say we model circa 1955. 1) 3-6 northbound coal "extras" daily...one (or two) I1s on the point, 2 I1s (or the occasional L1) shoving 2) appropriate southbound empties 3) coal yard and pier at Sodus Point 4) additional industries and interchanges from Watkins Glenn to Sodus Point, switched by the coal trains or locals 5) approx 3 daily NYC (booo hisss)- PRR pool trains with NYC/PRR power mixes 6) Wow, what a mix of power! PRR steam...B, C, K4, L, H, I, M (very late) PRR diesel...sharks (freight and passenger), PA, FA, F's, Baldwin Transfer, GP7 (including passenger versions with rooftop "torpedoes") NYC...Mowhawks, FA, etc... 7) A helper district. 8) Spectacular Finger Lakes Scenery To that, I would add that I would model either Watkins Glen, and north, or Southport and north...Helpers were based in the Glen, but returned south every night (first move of the ops session - send the helpers north!) There was joint elevated track in Elmira (pretty cool). Backdating to pre-WWII gets rid of the the diesels, the I-1s and the M-1s, and you can add more regular passenger service to the operations. The L-1 becomes the predominant power, and these are available in both N and HO scale. There were at least 4 interchanges between the PRR and other RRs north of the Glen. The only problems with this concept that I have, is that you have to deal with empties/loads at Sodus Point, and you have to scratchbuild the pier...I would deal with the former by using removable loads (the Sodus Point operator removes the loads after spotting the hopper on the pier), and the latter...well build it of course! Heck, you could go crazy and use "live" loads, and model your hoppers with working doors . Lake boats are available in HO and soon in N scale. You only need a big staging yard at the South end (note that you will need staging for the north end of the branch after the Sodus Point branch diverges and for the interchange railroads if you choose to include them in the scheme). The bottom line? Start an operating session: Call the Sodus Point crew...start switching the pier...loads on from the loads yards, empties off to the empties yard, switch the malt house. Call the Southport Yard crew(s)...switch the yard, staging, hostle the engine terminal Call the Watkins Glenn helper crew...send 'em up to the glen on the next train. Helpers will shove this train over the hill north of the glen, and return as far as the glen, laying up to await the next shove. They will work the hill all day and return either light, or on the last s'bound of the day to Elmira. Call the first Northbound coal extra...Crews pick up their power at the engine terminal, head out to the departure track, tack onto the train, tack on the helpers, get 'em going. Train crews arriving at Sodus Point drop their trains at the loads yard, take their power to the terminal, "lay-over" and take the next train south. Call additional Northbounds and Southbounds, including the locals (forgot the train symbol - sorry). Train crews arriving at Southport yard will drop their train in the yard and take their power to the engine house. Train crews going to points north other than Sodus Pt. either take the next train south from that point (from visibile staging is my preference), or take a cab over to Sodus Point, and run south from there, as needed. The Southport "staging master" (could be the YM) will tack new power onto the s'bound empties and run 'em into staging, run n'bound loads out of staging and into S'port, take the power off and shop it, while a fresh n'bound crew tacks on and heads north. So this layout has a yard at each end (Southport, Sodus Point), staging at the South end only (south of Southport), a focus in the middle (Watkins Glen), and a number of other small towns, passing sidings, industries and interchanges that make life very interesting! Pressed for space? Make the S'port yard the staging yard..visible/active staging. You can make this layout as complicated as you like or as simple...because of the linear nature of the plan, you can run the whole sheebang single handed if you're into that, or keep a dozen or more operators scurrying about like madmen! Do this in HO scale - build an empire...do it in N-scale and run prototype length trains! Whatever you do, if you build it, please let come play with your trains! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:29:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] another Philly area book Check out http://www.railpace.com/store/septa_book.htm Stumbled across it today when looking for a Railpace back issue. It claims: Following an historical introduction to the origins of SEPTA, with vintage PRR, Reading, Red Arrow and PTC views, the publication focuses on current SEPTA operations, with suggestions for riding and photographing the system. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:29:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] another Philly area book Check out http://www.railpace.com/store/septa_book.htm Stumbled across it today when looking for a Railpace back issue. It claims: Following an historical introduction to the origins of SEPTA, with vintage PRR, Reading, Red Arrow and PTC views, the publication focuses on current SEPTA operations, with suggestions for riding and photographing the system. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 21:40:04 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] The Rules, and how they changed robert netzlof wrote: BIG SNIP > > What I'm wondering is: > > When did rules 20 and 21 go away? > "Operating, Signal and Interlocking Rules" Effective september 28, 1941 Edition of september 25, 1949 18) Yard engines will display the headlight to the front and rear by night. When not provided with a headlight at the rear, a white light must be displayed. 19) The following signals will be displayed, one on each side of the rear of every train, as markers, to indicate the rear of the train: By day, on cars not equipped with fixed electric marker lamps, marker lamps not lighted; on engines and cars equipped with fixed electric marker lamps, marker lamps lighted as at night. By night, on engines and cars, marker lamps lighted showing red to the rear except in manual block system territory when clear of main track, marker lamps lighted showing yellow to the rear. 19A) A train not equipped to display the markers prescribed by Rule 19, will display on rear of train, by day, a red flag; by night a red light except in manual block system territory when clear of main track, a white light. 19B) When cars are pushed by an engine (except when shifting or making up trains in yards) a white light must be displayed on the front of the leading car by night. When an engine is running backward without cars or at the front of a train pulling cars, a white light must be displayed by night on the rear of the tender if not equipped with a headlight. 19C) When an engine, with or without cars is detached from its train on main track and conditions require, the enginemen will direct the placing of a white light on the leading car of portion left standing. The next rule is 25 and relates to blue signals on equipment. Hope this helps. Have fun, J.W.Rosenbauer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:49:08 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Anyone have PC ETT West. Reg #3 ?? I just checked, and mine is naked as well! No help from me I guess. Dave At 2:35 PM -0400 9/6/99, Mark Bej wrote: >Gents: > >need some help. > >Actually, I need a lot of help, but that's beside the point. > >Does anyone have a Penn Central vegetable matter being lobbed in my general direction> Western Region >employee timetable #3 ** with inserts ** ? Mine feels naked without its >inserts, but besides that, I'm trying to figure out as of what date did >Penn Central rename the Main Line -- SC&S to the SC&S Branch. The latter >name is in use in West. Reg. ETT #4. > >Thanks much. > >-- >Mark > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 06:45:25 +0000 Subject: [PRR] NEW UPDATES to railroad book and magazine list. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: VRBass Subject: NEW UPDATES to railroad book and magazine list. Date sent: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:49:22 -0600 Fellow modelers, It's time again for updates to the NMRA's duplicate book and magazine sale list. Junk this if you're not looking for railroad related books. The NMRA's Kalmbach Memorial Library maintains a list of duplicate materials which are offered for sale to the public. There are hundreds of books, magazines and videotapes on the list, which is updated every couple of months. I'm the member volunteer who maintains the web pages for the library. We have recently restructured the list to make it easier to read and find what you're looking for in it. We hope you'll find it an improvement, and would like to hear your suggestions. The September 1 list is now available on the NMRA's web site, http://www.nmra.org. Choose the "Kalmbach Memorial Library" link, and then the "Duplicate Book Sales" link to see the list. A printed version of the list is also available from the NMRA. To receive it, send a self-addressed envelope with $.55 postage affixed to: Duplicate Book Sale/ KML NMRA 4121 Cromwell Road Chattanooga, TN 37421 Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://cid.railfan.net/ ============================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ======= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:42:59 -0400 From: Michael Hauk Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch - Crew change points Thanks everyone for the replies. As far as the northern portion of the Elmira branch vs. the southern portion, the southern portion has a more personal connection, as my grandfather (and now my dad and uncles) had a hunting cabin in Roaring Branch, PA. I was too young to "go to camp" when any traffic was still running, but I cam remember what the line looked like in the years shortly after Hurricane Agnes, as I was old enough to go hunting by then. The track was all still in place, but most of the bridges were twisted into incredible shapes by the floodwaters. In addition, I figured the southern portion would be more manageable for me to tackle, for the very reasons outlined by Dr. Smith: The northern portion just had SO MUCH, that doing it justice would be a daunting task.( I think you can have too much of a good thing, Heh!) I guess I've got to get off my butt and join the LD-SIG. Someone recommended it 2 years ago when I posted a few other questions about the branch. (I SAID this was a long-range project!! And I am the King of Procrastination :)) BTW, if anyone has any ETT's that cover the branch in the late 30's- early 40's that they would be willing to part with, let me know. I was outbid at the last minute on the last one I saw offered on E-bay. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch - Crew change points Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:47:40 -0400 I am sending Mike 3 tif files of the Elmira Branch trackcharts as attachments. Since I can't post attachments, i shall offer copies by e-mail to anyone who asks for them off-list. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Hauk To: PRR-Talk Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 10:53 AM Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch - Crew change points > >Thanks everyone for the replies. > >As far as the northern portion of the Elmira branch vs. the southern >portion, the southern portion has a more personal connection, as my >grandfather (and now my dad and uncles) had a hunting cabin in Roaring >Branch, PA. I was too young to "go to camp" when any traffic was still >running, but I cam remember what the line looked like in the years shortly >after Hurricane Agnes, as I was old enough to go hunting by then. The track >was all still in place, but most of the bridges were twisted into >incredible shapes by the floodwaters. > >In addition, I figured the southern portion would be more manageable for me >to tackle, for the very reasons outlined by Dr. Smith: The northern portion >just had SO MUCH, that doing it justice would be a daunting task.( I think >you can have too much of a good thing, Heh!) > >I guess I've got to get off my butt and join the LD-SIG. Someone >recommended it 2 years ago when I posted a few other questions about the >branch. (I SAID this was a long-range project!! And I am the King of >Procrastination :)) > >BTW, if anyone has any ETT's that cover the branch in the late 30's- early >40's that they would be willing to part with, let me know. I was outbid at >the last minute on the last one I saw offered on E-bay. > >Mike > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 14:19:42 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: And If You Like Fire Trucks was Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch Greetings to the group, With reference to the Elmira Branch modeling dilema, if you're into fire trucks, model Elmira. Elmira was home to American LaFrance which made fire equipment. Their pumpers and especially their tillered ladder trucks were unmistakable in their appearence. The PRR shipped out their products in a, I believe, one-of-a-kind box car. The car's markings indicated in some way that it was to be returned when empty to American LaFrance c/o Elmira agent. Drew R. McGhee, Firefighter/EMT (1976-1981) Wayne Twp. VFD Company 10, Clinton County, PA But now living a much less exciting life in Altoona, PA. drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] BP 20 Sharks-A Follow Up List, This posting is a follow up to my question several weeks ago. Back then I asked the question did anyone build the new Miracle Casting BP 20 Kits and if so what was their opinion on them. I had a half dozen people email me there response. In short, a few said that they bought the kits but have yet to start them. Still others emailed and descibed their experience with them. This email is not intended to turn you away from these kits. In fact I hope to see Miracle Casting succed on these kits so they will release future products. Upon reading the email responses I recieved, there seems to be a general concensus that the kits could be improved upon or future kits thought out better before production. First problem encountered was that the Body Shell of the A unit did not fit down over the Motor after it was installed. That meant the inside of the shell had to be milled out with a dremmel for proper fit. The B unit was fine. Several emails contained that complaint. Second. The cast resin steps are very brittle to work with and are even more delicate once attached. I had one email on this feature and they replaced them with brass ladder stock, shaped and modified to represent the ladder steps found on the Sharks. I wish I had thought of this before I delivered the completed models to my customer. I think that would work quite nice. Other suggestions that was sent my way was to replace the cast resin walk way that spans the grill with an ethed brass roof walk. Again Great Idea. A feature that is quite difficult to cure is the mounting of the plastic window material. To make this easier MAKE SURE the openings are filed SQUARE. Because the casting is so think it is impossible to just glue the plastic windows to the inside. The plastic has to be trimmed to fit the opening and installed from the outside. So a square opening is much easier to deal with. That basically covers my first and only "review" of a model kit. In my opinion these are OK kits. With some extra attention to the above mentioned shortcomings, these kits are well worth a look at. Will I buy any? Probably not because I already have 2 sets of Brass Oriental Limited BP20 A-B sets. This leads me the next feature. Posted at this url http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/2sharks.JPG is a photo comparison of the Miracle Casting Sharks and 1 of my Oriental Limited Brass Shark sets. They are shown side by side. You will see they measure out at basically the same length. Overall appearence seems identical. The size variation of certain roof details can be seen. Which is more correct? I really don't know. I have no good photo proof of an actual shark roof. When you look at the pic, the Tuscan Red Shark (Scalecoat) is the Miracle Casting Shark and the DGLE (My Mixture of Scalecoat) Sharks are the Brass Oriental Limied Sharks. Disreguard the orange looking color of the Tuscan Sharks. The combination of sunlight, photo and scanning changed the color quite a bit. It was painted Tuscan Red straight from the Scalecoat bottle. It really does not look that orange. I welcome any more opinions on these as well. If you have any please share them on PRR-TALK, not just to me. I will look forward to any future products that MC has up there sleeves. HINT. R50b's!!!!!!.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:09:50 EDT Subject: Re: And If You Like Fire Trucks was Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch In a message dated 09/08/1999 2:31:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: > The PRR shipped out their products in a, > I believe, one-of-a-kind box car. The car's markings indicated in some way > that it was to be returned when empty to American LaFrance c/o Elmira agent. > This was the PRR X30 class box car 59861 70'6" dbl door with end doors 6176 cu. ft. The car carried several paint schemes including being lettered EXPERIMENTAL. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:09:50 EDT Subject: Re: And If You Like Fire Trucks was Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch In a message dated 09/08/1999 2:31:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: > The PRR shipped out their products in a, > I believe, one-of-a-kind box car. The car's markings indicated in some way > that it was to be returned when empty to American LaFrance c/o Elmira agent. > This was the PRR X30 class box car 59861 70'6" dbl door with end doors 6176 cu. ft. The car carried several paint schemes including being lettered EXPERIMENTAL. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:09:50 EDT Subject: Re: And If You Like Fire Trucks was Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch In a message dated 09/08/1999 2:31:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: > The PRR shipped out their products in a, > I believe, one-of-a-kind box car. The car's markings indicated in some way > that it was to be returned when empty to American LaFrance c/o Elmira agent. > This was the PRR X30 class box car 59861 70'6" dbl door with end doors 6176 cu. ft. The car carried several paint schemes including being lettered EXPERIMENTAL. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:09:50 EDT Subject: Re: And If You Like Fire Trucks was Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch In a message dated 09/08/1999 2:31:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: > The PRR shipped out their products in a, > I believe, one-of-a-kind box car. The car's markings indicated in some way > that it was to be returned when empty to American LaFrance c/o Elmira agent. > This was the PRR X30 class box car 59861 70'6" dbl door with end doors 6176 cu. ft. The car carried several paint schemes including being lettered EXPERIMENTAL. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:09:50 EDT Subject: Re: And If You Like Fire Trucks was Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch In a message dated 09/08/1999 2:31:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: > The PRR shipped out their products in a, > I believe, one-of-a-kind box car. The car's markings indicated in some way > that it was to be returned when empty to American LaFrance c/o Elmira agent. > This was the PRR X30 class box car 59861 70'6" dbl door with end doors 6176 cu. ft. The car carried several paint schemes including being lettered EXPERIMENTAL. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re:American La France Fire Trucks from Elmira Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:01:19 -0400 Here is a piece of trivia for you PRR files regarding Elmira Built fire trucks. In June of 1958 there was a freight train hurtling down the Bald Eagle Branch when it derailed. One of the box cars that derailed was the car carrying a brand new fire truck for the city of Napoleon, Ind. One of the reasons that the train was hurrying was that the fire truck was to be unveiled at the 4th of July parade in beautiful downtown Napoleon. Well, the truck was basically unscathed in the derailment except for one minor point. One of the bands that was holding one axle to the floor of the boxcar had broken when the car tilted in the derailment. This torsion caused the truck frame to become slightly "warped". So another truck was built in Elmira for delivery on the 4th of July 1959. And as Paul Harvey would say, "NOW for the REST OF THE STORY." You may have guessed it by now, that fire truck became a working member of the Altoona Works Fire Department, warped frame and all. And don't ask me what the box car number was or whether it was ever repaired. I DO NOT KNOW! Bill Volkmer, President Keepers of Odd Knowledge Society (KOOKS) PRR H&TS Chapter -----Original Message----- From: Drew McGhee To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 2:29 PM Subject: And If You Like Fire Trucks was Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch >Greetings to the group, > >With reference to the Elmira Branch modeling dilema, if you're into fire >trucks, model Elmira. Elmira was home to American LaFrance which made fire >equipment. Their pumpers and especially their tillered ladder trucks were >unmistakable in their appearence. The PRR shipped out their products in a, >I believe, one-of-a-kind box car. The car's markings indicated in some way >that it was to be returned when empty to American LaFrance c/o Elmira agent. > >Drew R. McGhee, Firefighter/EMT (1976-1981) >Wayne Twp. VFD Company 10, Clinton County, PA >But now living a much less exciting life in Altoona, PA. >drm6@psu.edu >http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch Track Charts Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:03:04 -0400 I must apologise. After sending out the track charts to about three people, I realized that I had never finished scanning the thing and these people only got about the first 21 miles out of Williamsport. When I get the time I will scan the rest and Jerry has offered to post it somewhere. Sorry for the bad info. Bill V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: [PRR] Fire Trucks and X30 class box car 59861 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:31:20 -0400 Any pictures? references? > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > SUVCWORR@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 3:10 PM > To: drm6@psu.edu; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: And If You Like Fire Trucks was Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch > > > In a message dated 09/08/1999 2:31:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > drm6@psu.edu > writes: > > > The PRR shipped out their products in a, > > I believe, one-of-a-kind box car. The car's markings indicated > in some way > > that it was to be returned when empty to American LaFrance c/o Elmira > agent. > > > This was the PRR X30 class box car 59861 70'6" dbl door with end > doors 6176 > cu. ft. The car carried several paint schemes including being lettered > EXPERIMENTAL. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:36:59 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling the Elmira Branch (long) - Was Crew change >Bruce, >I would like to know more about this, my wife has just given me the Garage >for my empire (she's tired of trains in her sewing room) and this sounds like >something i would like to model in N scale. where can i get the plans? >Thanks >Jim barrouquere Hi Jim, Good question! The best source of info by far on the Elmira Branch is "Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch" by Bill Caloroso, Andover Publications, ISBN0-944119-12-3, 1993. The book is out of print but I still see it at many larger hobby shops such as Mitchell's in DE and Caboose Hobbies in Denver Co. There are outstanding schematics of both the Southport and Sodus Point yards, and numerous photographs as well. All of the information regarding train movements was gleaned from this book. Combined with an archeological expedition to the area...which ought to be a great excuse to take the family to the finger lakes...you should be able to generate a very interesting plan. I hope to do a plan for this layout one of these years and submit it to Model RR Planning...but I still need to draw up my own layout! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:42:28 -0400 From: Michael Hauk Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch track charts Thanks, Bill! At the resolution you scanned at, some of the smaller print wasn't really legible, but it's still useful for station names, grade profiles, curves, signal locations, etc. The problem may be the originals. I have a similar chart for the Shamokin Branch, and some of the smaller lettering is kind of small and smudgy, like blueprint-type material, and hard to read even on the original document. If anyone needs a similar chart for the Shamokin branch, I have one, but I don't have a scanner. If enough folks want a copy, though, I know a guy who may be able to scan it for me. Thanks again, Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:01:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fire Trucks and X30 class box car 59861 In a message dated 09/08/1999 4:37:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cevans@onlinesecurities.net writes: > Any pictures? references? > Caloroso pg. 34 ORER April 1952 Cars of the PRR Wayner pg. 46 PRR Compendium -- Middle Division pg 5 Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:36:19 -0400 From: Michael Hauk Subject: [PRR] Track Charts After rooting around in the basement, I also discovered track charts for the Selinsgrove Secondary Track; the Wilkes Barre Branch (Sunbury to Wilkes Barre); the Bellefonte, Berwick, and Millville Branches; and the Lykens Valley RR &C Co. All are correct to January 1, 1962. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:59:29 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] BP 20 Sharks-A Follow Up Hello Gary and the list, Fantastic pictures and review. One burning question: What decal set did you use to do the BP20s? I'm considering a unit in the 5 stripe scheme, but I don't know where I can find a decal set with the five stripes and circle keystone (preferrably in dulux gold; gold leaf tends to fade in my lighting). Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > This posting is a follow up to my question several weeks ago. Back > then I asked the question did anyone build the new Miracle Casting BP 20 > Kits and if so what was their opinion on them. I had a half dozen people > email me there response. In short, a few said that they bought the kits > but have yet to start them. Still others emailed and descibed their > experience with them. This email is not intended to turn you away from > these kits. In fact I hope to see Miracle Casting succed on these kits > so they will release future products. Upon reading the email responses I > recieved, there seems to be a general concensus that the kits could be > improved upon or future kits thought out better before production. First > problem encountered was that the Body Shell of the A unit did not fit > down over the Motor after it was installed. That meant the inside of the > shell had to be milled out with a dremmel for proper fit. The B unit was > fine. Several emails contained that complaint. Second. The cast resin > steps are very brittle to work with and are even more delicate once > attached. I had one email on this feature and they replaced them with > brass ladder stock, shaped and modified to represent the ladder steps > found on the Sharks. I wish I had thought of this before I delivered the > completed models to my customer. I think that would work quite nice. > Other suggestions that was sent my way was to replace the cast resin > walk way that spans the grill with an ethed brass roof walk. Again Great > Idea. A feature that is quite difficult to cure is the mounting of the > plastic window material. To make this easier MAKE SURE the openings are > filed SQUARE. Because the casting is so think it is impossible to just > glue the plastic windows to the inside. The plastic has to be trimmed to > fit the opening and installed from the outside. So a square opening is > much easier to deal with. That basically covers my first and only > "review" of a model kit. In my opinion these are OK kits. With some > extra attention to the above mentioned shortcomings, these kits are well > worth a look at. Will I buy any? Probably not because I already have 2 > sets of Brass Oriental Limited BP20 A-B sets. This leads me the next > feature. Posted at this url > http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/boutique/5089/2sharks.JPG is a photo > comparison of the Miracle Casting Sharks and 1 of my Oriental Limited > Brass Shark sets. They are shown side by side. You will see they measure > out at basically the same length. Overall appearence seems identical. > The size variation of certain roof details can be seen. Which is more > correct? I really don't know. I have no good photo proof of an actual > shark roof. When you look at the pic, the Tuscan Red Shark (Scalecoat) > is the Miracle Casting Shark and the DGLE (My Mixture of Scalecoat) > Sharks are the Brass Oriental Limied Sharks. Disreguard the orange > looking color of the Tuscan Sharks. The combination of sunlight, photo > and scanning changed the color quite a bit. It was painted Tuscan Red > straight from the Scalecoat bottle. It really does not look that orange. > I welcome any more opinions on these as well. If you have any please > share them on PRR-TALK, not just to me. I will look forward to any > future products that MC has up there sleeves. HINT. > R50b's!!!!!!.....Gary > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - NEW BOUNCE MANAGEMENT Date: Wed, 8 Sep 99 19:58:49 -0400 From: Jerry Performing "bounce management" on the subscriber base of the lists I am serving can be a daunting task (as any listmeister knows). I just found a utility which automates it and I am placing it on service today. There may be some "desubscribes" that should not occur, for one valid reason or another, so please be patient as I tweak the settings to get things just right. If your account bounces (bad address, unknown user, server not found, mailbox full, etc.), a message will be (and has always been) returned to me. I have had to manually pore over them and decide who should be desubscribed (based on the severity) and who to watch for a while. The new software will read these same logs and any instance of a bounce will flag that address for the day. One bounce in a day = one flag. Fifty bounces (full mailbox) = one flag. So, you won't get kicked off for a full mailbox one day! The one setting I can tweak is the number of CONSECUTIVE flagged days that are required before the software automatically kills your subscription. I have set it to "3" initially. Let's see what happens and please try not to overreact if you get kicked off. We'll get you back on! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 19:18:59 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Decals for a Bowser T1 and Bowser I1sa questions Hello list, Most of you modelling HO may be wondering why I'm making this post. After all, the Bowser T1 comes with a great decal set in gold leaf. Naturally, I had to do things differently. To compensate for low indoor light levels, I painted my T1 with Polly Scale's grimy black and Testor's Model Master acrylic rust for the tender deck. No, it isn't DGLE, but I can see all of the nice castings, and the engine isn't a visual black hole, and looks quite massive alongside my K4s fleet (if you can call five a fleet). Unfortunately, test on invisible parts of the shell revealed that the gold leaf decals would be almost invisible. So, I used portions of several different sets to get the dulux gold coloring (technically correct for 1952 and beyond, at which point, I believe, all of the T1 fleet was in storage). For those of you demented enough to follow in my footsteps, I used the following sets: Champ's S68, dulux gold 6" HO stripes, for broad tender stripes Champ's S3, dulux gold 1.5" stripes, for narrow tender stripes Champ's EH9LD, dulux gold long distance tender, for the road name and road numbers Champ's BRH26 (now part of their Signiature Series) for the pilot beam symbols Champ's EH78F, for the tender keystones The tender striping has gone slowly, and for those of you with lots of light, the kit's gold leaf decals should show up well on whatever version of DGLE you've selected. By the way, Champ now offers reprints of their discontinued decals with an Alps printer; prices vary, so email them with your requests if you have a particular set in mind. My own pet project is getting CNJ decals to do some of the Bowser 70 ton covered hoppers. Once I've polished off my duplex, I'm continuing work on my I1sa, which will represent the survivor, 4483. Does anyone have pictures of the engine with a long distance tender instead of the short 90F82 series she was retired with? I've begun to cut the boiler running boards to represent the twin air pump configuration; has anybody actually done this (I'd rather follow in the footsteps of the more-experienced)? Also, I've put in an Alco Products can motor, and for some reason, it's been binding on the top of the boiler casting (I have the larger, correct boiler casting; I removed the bump on the underside of the casting where the motor nestles and that may clear up the problem; I just haven't had time to test the engine under power). Has anyone else run into this problem, and if so, how'd you solve it? Thanks in advance Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:15:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] Eastern Car Works B60 I have started putting together my Eastern Car Works B60. The instructions could be a bit better, but, I'm getting there. They offer 3 options for the installation of the trucks: does anyone have any experience with this and do you have a recommendation? I'm planning on a body mount coupler for next to the engine and a truck mounted coupler for compatability with my AHM cars that have truck mounted couplers. Do I have to remove the coupler mounting pad on the floor of the car? It looks like I have to. Thanks, Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] Anyone have PC ETT West. Reg #3 ?? Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:56:57 -0400 Sorry all my " Green" books are from the Eastern Region ! But I looked ! Bill (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > From: David J. Wartell > To: Mark Bej ; prr-talk@dsop.com > Cc: Jerry Jordak > Subject: Re: [PRR] Anyone have PC ETT West. Reg #3 ?? > Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 11:49 PM > > I just checked, and mine is naked as well! No help from me I guess. > > Dave > > At 2:35 PM -0400 9/6/99, Mark Bej wrote: > >Gents: > > > >need some help. > > > >Actually, I need a lot of help, but that's beside the point. > > > >Does anyone have a Penn Central >vegetable matter being lobbed in my general direction> Western Region > >employee timetable #3 ** with inserts ** ? Mine feels naked without its > >inserts, but besides that, I'm trying to figure out as of what date did > >Penn Central rename the Main Line -- SC&S to the SC&S Branch. The latter > >name is in use in West. Reg. ETT #4. > > > >Thanks much. > > > >-- > >Mark > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] BP-20 Review Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:27:31 -0400 Hi All! Just a few comments regarding the review of our BP-20 kit by Gary Mittner. The incorrect shell depth problem came to light after a number of shark kits had been shipped out, and we apologize to anyone who got one. If you did, and you don't want to simply mill it out with a dremel, contact us and we'll arrange for a replacement. We're still not sure how it happened exactly, although we're have an idea. The mold insert is being modified to eliminate the chances of it happening again. As for the ladders, they have been changed, and are now much beefier, with a different mounting technique. They will just be glued to the bottom of the shell directly, and should be able to survive being broken off if roughly handled. If you have the old ones, you can greatly increase the strength of them by gluing brass wire in a "U" shape around the back of the ladders before inserting them in the holes. This results in a much stronger ladder. If you have the old ladders, and want a replacement set of the new ones, let me know, and we'll mail you some N/C. The ladders on the BP-20 will always be a problem on sharp model railroad curves, but that's because of the way they were in real life. Not much we can do about reality. As for the roof walk, we hope to dive into the area of photo-etched products this year, and that will be one of our targets. The BP-20 was our first product, and naturally we've had some learning curve to deal with. It's also a completely hand-made object, from the master to the mold to the finished kit, and the accuracy level simply can't compete with an injection molded product. Nonetheless, we feel it is a good kit, and it certainly looks good assembled and painted up, as Gary's photos show. In relation to the roof differences, who knows? We worked from published plans and whatever photos we could get our hands on, but we could not locate any excellent roof photos either. The best we could find was the photo in the Kalmbach Diesel Cyclopedia, which makes the width of the engine hatches look about right for our kit. In the Kalmbach photo, the engine hatches clearly do not extend as far as the exhaust stacks from side to side, whereas they do in the brass model. I would very much like to get some close-up photos of the roof fan grills though, to see if the brass model's interpretation of that is correct. The grills as shown on the brass model do not agree with the plan published by Kalmbach, but that might be because the plan is wrong, or it could be because of a variation in units, something that Baldwin was famous for. In closing, I'd like to thank Gary for his unbiased and fair assessment of our kit, and thank all you PRR Talkers who supported us in our first year by buying Sharks and Erie-builts. We were sorry not to be able to attend the PRRT&HS Convention, but a death in Mike's family threw a large monkey wrench into that at the last moment. Hopefully next year. Regards, Pat Lawless Miracle Castings Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Decals for a Bowser T1 and Bowser I1sa questions Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:09:27 -0500 Doug--This isn't the answer you wanted to see, but Penn Valley Pictures video "The Ore Train" has footage of 4483 with the 90F82 tender. Great video...... Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] BP 20 Sharks-A Follow Up Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:13:32 -0500 Doug--Try Champ, order the circle keystone separately. Bronze Gold: HH-1 and EH-78P; Dulux Gold: HH-5 and EH-378. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Charts Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:20:01 -0500 Mike--I would love to have a copy of all of those track charts, but that is probably an unreasonable burden on you. Can these be put on Jerry's website, too? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Triumph Series Date: Thu, 9 Sep 99 06:26:36 -0400 From: Jerry I queried David Messner, editor, on the status of the Triumph II book. Here is his reply: On 9/8/99 8:16 PM, DMesserPRR@cs.com (xxx@xxx.xxx) wrote: >It is an embarrassment to see the old schedule - no one wants these books to >appear on time more than yours truly. Triumph II (Philadelphia Division) >has >had, to say the least, a lot of production problems at the graphics layout >stage, totally out of my control. However, the good news is that it is >finally at the printers and due to be delivered to the publisher in October. > >Triumph III (Philadelphia Terminal) has been completed at my end and will >follow, hopefully in the Spring. I am currently working on Triumph IV >(Middle Division). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:26:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [DTI_Modeler] Cincinnati trains Just a couple of additions to Jim Hediger's posting on DC-9, etc. to Cincinnati: In a message dated 9/7/99 4:54:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jhediger@mrmag.com writes: Trains DC-8 (NB) and DC-9 (SB) were the DT&I's hottest auto parts trains with an 8 1/2-hour schedule between Detroit & Cincinnati. Initially, they operated on the DT&I through Springfield to South Charleston, O., where they went onto the PRR for the trip through Xenia to PRR's Undercliff Yard in Cincinnati.>> The original southbound trains "turned right" onto the PRR main at South Charleston, and then "turned left" off the PRR main to St Louis at Xenia. >From Xenia, the Pennsy's Cincinnati line followed an 1845 alignment down the Little Miami River. These trains terminated at Undercliff Yard. Undercliff was PRR's major Cincinnati yard, and lay adjacent to Lunken Airport at the mouth of the Little Miami River. DT&I/AA power was cut off and ran 1.7 miles further "west" to the engine terminal at Pendleton. << PRR crosstown transfers handled delivery of the cars to the Sou. and L&N yards in Ky. via Patio tower.>> The L&N transfers came out of Undercliff, passed Pendleton, and were routed onto the Newport & Cincinnati Bridge at OASIS tower (sorry, Patio is south on the L&N at Winchester KY, where the Eastern Kentucky coal line leaves the main). The N&C was L&N's bridge across the Ohio River into Kentucky. South of the N&C bridge, L&N tracks ran in the middle of Newport's Saratoga Street and joined the L&N main at Latonia. DeCoursey Yard lay a short distance south of there. The Southern transfers went down to Oasis and then across the river side of downtown Cincinnati on street and streetedge trackage (the Cincinnati Street Connecting Railway) to Southern's Gest Street Yard. <> It would be nice to establish the cutoff date on PRR cabooses. I've been told they ran into PC days, but have no documentation of this. << During the Penn Central era, GP35s and then GP40s and GP40-2s were the primary power on these trains with the DT&I cabooses running all the way. The routing changed in 1977 so the trains ran to Maitland on the DT&I, then via E-L to Yellow Springs, where they went onto PC for the trip through Dayton and Sharonville to Cincinnati, terminating in Southern's Gest St. Yard just west of CUT.>> The EL was used as a bypass around the west side of Springfield, between Maitland and COLD SPRINGS, where it became the north side of double track into East Dayton. This was originally a paired-track arrangement between the Erie and the Big Four. Notes: 1. Jim Paine, builder of the HO Durham Southern in Dayton, was once an NYC operator at Cold Springs outside of Springfield. 2. Yellow Springs is about 8 miles south of Cold Springs. It lies on the PRR's historic Springfield Branch north of Xenia. I say historic, because this branch has been recognized as excess trackage since 1868. Yellow Springs is also the home of PRR Lines West fan Tom Vondruska. A couple of different routes were used at various times between Dayton and Cincinnati over the PC and Conrail years, but I don't know the exact routes or the dates of each change. Hopefully someone in the area knows?>> I have no exact dates, but in 1972-1974, with Undercliff virtually closed, DT&I trains were running into Sharonville (ex-NYC Cincinnati hump yard). I photographed multiple westbounds (typical power GP-40's, DT&I cabins) still running west from South Charleston, through Xenia and on the line to Dayton, thus passing down the east Dayton grade to Dayton Union Station. Leaving the DUS plant at Miami City Junction, these DT&I jobs used the Big Four (ex-NYC) to go to Cincinnati. Since the Big Four route from Maitland to Dayton had less grades and was shorter, it made good sense to eventually take the DT&I's runthroughs off the PRR routing entirely, and run them NYC all the way. Note that from Sharonville to the L&N Bridge, the L&N runthroughs still used a few miles of PRR track to pass Undercliff and Pendleton on their way to Oasis. And for at least a time, the DT&I's "Detroit tunnel engines" (SD-35 350/351?) were used in Cincinnati as frontend helpers to get the trains up the ramp at Oasis and over the N&C Bridge (and Ohio River) into DeCoursey Yard. << In the 1980s, a long combined DC-7/DC-9 auto parts train was run between Flat Rock and Maitland, where it would be split at a mid-train caboose. The front two units were cut-off (that's what the small track at Maitland was for) and the remaining two units would take the front half on as DC-9 for delivery to the Southern. The remaining two units and rear half of the train became DC7 (SB) which went via the old PRR line to Patio (downtown Cincinnati), crossed the river and ran up the street through Newport to reach L&N's Yard in Decoursey, Ky. Trains DC-6 and DC-8 followed the reverse procedure and were combined in the opposite direction (NB) at Maitland to become DC-6/DC-8. DT&I did not have any yard of its own in the Cincinnati or northern Ky. area. Unit coal trains off the L&N were a continuing problem NB as it took a lot of DT&I's Geeps to get them up the hill out of the Ohio River Valley. A couple of coal trains could easily tie up a dozen units which put a big hole in the available motive power! Sometimes, L&N would supply pushers as far as Sharonville if the DT&I was short of units. Hopefully, some of the local fans can fill in the blanks that I've indicated. Regards, >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:56:04 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Eastern Car Works B60 Joel says: >I'm planning on a body mount coupler for next to the engine and a truck >mounted coupler for compatability with my AHM cars that have truck mounted >couplers. Unless you're running 18" radius curves, this is a bad move. I have no problem with my B60, or even my Mb70 or P70s with body mount couplers mingling with a few athearn heavyweights on 26" raddii. The advantage that all body mounts gives you, in addition to looks, is "tracking when backing" Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 07:52:17 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: the LE&FW --------------E1E2D74E5E086411E9C46F9E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen: Here's a historical question to chew on: I recently received a copy of the abandonment table from the Indiana Rail Plan Update-1995 which had been missing from my files, and noticed once again that much of the former PC mileage which did not formally make it into Conrail was officially abandoned by an entity called the Lake Erie & Ft. Wayne. This designation is repeated throughout all of the InDOT material stretching back to the late 1970s. However, as far as I have been able to determine from my own files, the LE&FW was a small switching road in Ft. Wayne wholly owned by the Wabash. By 1969 ownership had passed to the N&W through merger. How then, and why, did the LE&FW become the agent of the PC Corporation? Inquiring minds need to know. Richard Wallis --------------E1E2D74E5E086411E9C46F9E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen:

Here's a historical question to chew on:  I recently received a copy of the abandonment table from the Indiana Rail Plan Update-1995 which had been missing from my files, and noticed once again that much of the former PC mileage which did not formally make it into Conrail was officially abandoned by an entity called the Lake Erie & Ft. Wayne.  This designation is repeated throughout all of the InDOT material stretching back to the late 1970s.  However, as far as I have been able to determine from my own files, the LE&FW was a small switching road in Ft. Wayne wholly owned by the Wabash.  By 1969 ownership had passed to the N&W through merger.  How then, and why, did the LE&FW become the agent of the PC Corporation?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Richard Wallis --------------E1E2D74E5E086411E9C46F9E-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:35:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Employee Timetable, Philadelphia Division, 9/26/54 From: "Jerry Britton" I am still looking to borrow (or buy!) an Employee Timetable, for the Philadelphia Division, effective 9/26/54. For that matter, I am still looking for the same for all divisions EXCEPT the Maryland Division and the Philadelphia Terminal Division which I already have. Can borrow and return within 3-4 weeks. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 13:43:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 From: "Jerry Britton" It's September, 1954, in Harrisburg, Pa., and I've got three commuter trains to model between 4 p.m. and midnight: #602 "The Governor" departing to Philadelphia #612 departing to Philadelphia #615 arriving from Philadelphia I have no "Makeup of Trains" book indicating what the consist of these trains might be. Anyone have a consist book, consist reports, or photos of the era? My guess is that any or all of them would be MP54 and P54 coaches. Any reasons why that would NOT be appropriate? Any supporting comments? What other consists might be used for commuter trains between Harrisburg and Philly? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:44:01 -0400 Don't hold me to this but I think MP-54s were not used into Harrisburg until the early 1960s after the E-6s were equipped with cab signals and automatic train stop. There was one E-6 that ran between Baltimore and Washington around 1958. The "commuter trains" as I remember them were all P-70s, including a few of the FBRs but mostly Gs GS's Scheme 6s, hot P-70s and anything else that was lying around. After 1960 there was a train that left Harrisburg around 6AM and got to 30th St. at 8:20 or so that had all FBrs. The MP-54 as I remember it ran about 5 AM out of Hbg and got back after the coach train. I don't have a timetable handy here to tell you the train numbers but it probably doesn't matter if you are modelling 1954. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 1:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 >It's September, 1954, in Harrisburg, Pa., and I've got three commuter trains >to model between 4 p.m. and midnight: > > #602 "The Governor" departing to Philadelphia > #612 departing to Philadelphia > #615 arriving from Philadelphia > >I have no "Makeup of Trains" book indicating what the consist of these >trains might be. Anyone have a consist book, consist reports, or photos of >the era? > >My guess is that any or all of them would be MP54 and P54 coaches. Any >reasons why that would NOT be appropriate? Any supporting comments? > >What other consists might be used for commuter trains between Harrisburg and >Philly? >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:03:30 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 Jerry, If your suspicion is correct (and I have no reason to think it isn't), what are you going to do for MP54's? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > It's September, 1954, in Harrisburg, Pa., and I've got three commuter trains > to model between 4 p.m. and midnight: > > #602 "The Governor" departing to Philadelphia > #612 departing to Philadelphia > #615 arriving from Philadelphia > > I have no "Makeup of Trains" book indicating what the consist of these > trains might be. Anyone have a consist book, consist reports, or photos of > the era? > > My guess is that any or all of them would be MP54 and P54 coaches. Any > reasons why that would NOT be appropriate? Any supporting comments? > > What other consists might be used for commuter trains between Harrisburg and > Philly? > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:39:41 -0400 From: Michael Hauk Subject: [PRR] Re: Track Charts >Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Charts >From: "Stephen Hoxie" >Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:20:01 -0500 > >Mike--I would love to have a copy of all of those track charts, but that is >probably an unreasonable burden on you. Can these be put on Jerry's >website, too? > >Steve Hoxie >Pensacola FL I'm going to send the track charts to Jerry for posting on his website. I'll try to get them sent off to him before this weekend. If for some reason they don't digitize well, I can try to get photocopies made when I get them back. I'm not sure how that will work, though, as they are "blue-print" like and I think blue does not copy well. Give the website a try when Jerry gets them up and let me know. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:51:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Track Charts From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Michael Hauk >To: "PRR-Talk" >Subject: [PRR] Re: Track Charts >Date: Thu, Sep 9, 1999, 2:39 PM > > I'm going to send the track charts to Jerry for posting on his website. > I'll try to get them sent off to him before this weekend. If for some > reason they don't digitize well, I can try to get photocopies made when I > get them back. I'm not sure how that will work, though, as they are > "blue-print" like and I think blue does not copy well. Give the website a > try when Jerry gets them up and let me know. I have done these "blue-print" style charts before and they actually come out pretty well. Are there specific locations you are more interested in? I can do them first. Let me know. Thanks, Mike! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 15:04:15 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 Greetings to Jerry and the list: The 9/26/54 PRR Form 41 public tt shows that 601/602, the Governor, carried a parlor cafe car, which of course means some P70 variant and not an MP54. 615 could not have been a commuter train by the usual definition since (1) it ran daily, not M-F or M-Sat, and (2) the tt shows it carrying a sleeper. It arrived at Harrisburg at 10:25 pm, just five minutes before the departure of 645 down the Cumberland Valley Branch and onto the N&W at Hagerstown, Md., for Roanoke, Va. A New York-Roanoke sleeper ran on Train 1 (Pennsylvania Limited) from NY to Harrisburg, where it was cut out and placed into the consist of Train 645. Remember that at that time, main line trains to/from NY did not go into 30th Street Station. So my suspicion would be that 615 was basically the Philadelphia connection for the Roanoke train. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] BP 20 Sharks-A Follow Up Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 15:09:33 EDT Gize, unless you wanna spring for brass, or kitbash your BP20'a (as I did, but this was years before Miracle Castings came along), you really ought to try one of theirs, if you want some fine looking BP20's. If this will be your first resin kit, you are in for a shock. Resin kits are always prety good one one side, and pretty not-so-hot on the other side. The trick is to keep the good side on the surface, or outside of the model. If you take your time, and join the sections carefully, you will get a very good looking model. And milling out the inside of the body cavity so the motor will fit is a commen challenge when working with resin-cast pieces, or almost any flat cavity piece model. And with Pat Lawless at the helm, making good on customer problems, and especially coming to market with the product and standing behind it, SPF-ers have it pretty good these days. I've seen really bad stuff on the market. I'd classify Miracle Castings line in the "buy" category. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, Artist, Illustrator, Lecturer, World Travler, and Bum. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 15:12:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 From: "Jerry Britton" >From: Dan Cupper >To: Jerry Britton >Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 >Date: Thu, Sep 9, 1999, 3:04 PM > > The 9/26/54 PRR Form 41 public tt shows that 601/602, the Governor, > carried a parlor cafe car, which of course means some P70 variant and > not an MP54. Good spot!!! > > 615 could not have been a commuter train by the usual definition since > (1) it ran daily, not M-F or M-Sat, and (2) the tt shows it carrying a > sleeper. Another good point! > > It arrived at Harrisburg at 10:25 pm, just five minutes before the > departure of 645 down the Cumberland Valley Branch and onto the N&W at > Hagerstown, Md., for Roanoke, Va. A New York-Roanoke sleeper ran on > Train 1 (Pennsylvania Limited) from NY to Harrisburg, where it was cut > out and placed into the consist of Train 645. Remember that at that > time, main line trains to/from NY did not go into 30th Street Station. > So my suspicion would be that 615 was basically the Philadelphia > connection for the Roanoke train. You've ID'd the sleeper all right, but confusion reigns here. Yes, the PT of this date does show the sleeper on #1 and being moved to #645. However, I have a CV tt which shows it coming off of #615. The New York Division "Makeup of Trains" indicates it coming off of #1. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 15:14:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 From: "Jerry Britton" >From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." >To: Jerry Britton >Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 >Date: Thu, Sep 9, 1999, 3:05 PM > > Wouldn't some commuter trains hace been coaches and GG-1's. It seems like I've > seen pictues somewhere, but maybe not at Harrisburg. There was a huge demand for the GG-1's for the "main trains" between Harrisburg and Philly/NY. Not sure how many might have been left for commuter service. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] (PRR Electric) Slide Show now loading on track one. Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:43:58 -0400 It was a gargantuan task but we have now finished loading the captions on the great PRR Electric locomotive (plus a few mu cars) slide show. http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/bvpr.htm After viewing each slide, scroll to the bottom and click on the "forward" button. Show is best viewed with a beer in the left hand and the mouse in the right hand. Enjoy. Bill V. P.S. Please do not ask when the diesels will be up because Dave doesn't DO diesels (yet). B. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] (PRR Electric) Slide Show now loading on track one. Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:43:58 -0400 It was a gargantuan task but we have now finished loading the captions on the great PRR Electric locomotive (plus a few mu cars) slide show. http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/bvpr.htm After viewing each slide, scroll to the bottom and click on the "forward" button. Show is best viewed with a beer in the left hand and the mouse in the right hand. Enjoy. Bill V. P.S. Please do not ask when the diesels will be up because Dave doesn't DO diesels (yet). B. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:34:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Commuter Trains-1954 Jerri & folks, Interesting discussion of Harrisburg-Philley commuter service. 100+ miles is indeed a long commuter haul by anyone's standards, and I don't know how many folks made the entire run everyday, but there must have been some. Trains 601/602, the Govenor, was oriented to Harrisburg, not Philley, making it almost a "reverse commuter" as regards the heaviest traffic flow. Another naned train serving long-haul commuter service into Philley was the Suesquhannock, out of Williamsport, at least westbound. The April, 1954 Guide also shows #604 leaving Harrisburg at 6:55, except sunday into 30th Street at 9:25am, and 600, leaving H'Burg 8:00an except sunday, into 30th St at 9:50. >From what I recall of riding MP54's, no way could those old grinders average nearly 60 mph for over 100 miles without an ambulance standing ready at 30th Street for scrambled passengers! Might have been fun for a few miles though. Good info, folks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 19:05:02 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Commuter Trains at Harrisburg, 1954 [Train 615] arrived at Harrisburg at 10:25 pm, just five minutes before the > > departure of 645 down the Cumberland Valley Branch and onto the N&W at > > Hagerstown, Md., for Roanoke, Va. A New York-Roanoke sleeper ran on > > Train 1 (Pennsylvania Limited) from NY to Harrisburg, where it was cut > > out and placed into the consist of Train 645. Remember that at that > > time, main line trains to/from NY did not go into 30th Street Station. > > So my suspicion would be that 615 was basically the Philadelphia > > connection for the Roanoke train. > > You've ID'd the sleeper all right, but confusion reigns here. Yes, the PT of > this date does show the sleeper on #1 and being moved to #645. However, I > have a CV tt which shows it coming off of #615. The New York Division > "Makeup of Trains" indicates it coming off of #1. Jerry: It could have been both -- some evidence seems to point toward both sleepers going on to Roanoke. And the answer is in the *N&W* public timetable of 4/25/54, which clearly shows that both PRR 1 (which went on to Chicago) and 615 (which terminated at Harrisburg) connected with 645 at Harrisburg; and of course, 645 became N&W 1 at Hagerstown. It (as well as the PRR timetables) does establish the existence of a NY-Roanoke sleeper, but so far (aside from what you mentioned above about a CV timetable) there isn't positive identification of a through Phila-Roanoke sleeper. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Romans 10:9-10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 19:21:31 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Re: Edson's Book Hello Dan and the list, Mr Edson's address is William D. Edson 10820 Gainsborough Road Potomac, MD 20854 I got the address from page 94 of the September/October 1999 Vintage Rails magazine (whose fate is now up in the air). The book comes in a fairly heavy box; it's about 350 pages, one sided photocopies, full of roster information. For instance, a few of the H6sb engines weren't scrapped until 1957, which raises the burning question of when they actually last turned a wheel in revenue service. My copy was missing a page, and Mr. Edson promptly sent me the missing page. As I recall, the book is $40, with $5 in shipping, but write first to be sure. As far as I'm concerned, it's worth it's weight in gold! Hope this helps!! Doug Dan & Deb Kasper wrote: > Doug, > I read your response to someone on the PRRT&HS website. Where can I find > a copy of Edson's PRR all-time steam roster. Any help you can give me > would be greatly appreciated. > thanx, > pennsy fan, Dan Kasper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 19:34:59 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] 90F82 tender for I1sa in HO Hello list, Thanks to all of you that responded to my I1sa queries!!! Since it appears that I'll need to model a 90F82 tender to accompany 4483, I have some more questions (I can't wait to build another K4s; at least there I know exactly what I'm doing!!!) for the list. Short of brass, according to the PRR talk archives, there isn't an accurate 90F82 tender. I have an older Bowser USRA tender that I think has conversion possibilities. It has a vertical slope sheet and overall length is close according to MR Cyclopedia's plan of the I1sa. So far, I've removed the slope sheet rivet line along the sides. I'm planning to raise the firing deck by building a fourth step and deck from styrene (the Bowser tender has three steps on each side). I'll be adding a doghouse using Bowser parts, and I'm going to make a dummy underframe (my tender is hollow underneath) so I can add a Cal Scale water scoop set. I'm also going to have to drill a bunch of holes for the handrails, uncoupling levers, and other grab irons. My tender currently rides on a set of Bowser Andrews trucks. My questions to the list are: First, is there a better way to acquire a 90F82, short of brass? I'm doing this because I can kitbash and lack vast sums of cash. Second, has anyone actually done this conversion? If so, your experiences and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Third, any suggestions as to stuff I might've left off my to do list would be most welcome. Thanks in advance. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:50:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Commuter Trains-1954 In a message dated 9/9/1999 5:41:45 PM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << 100+ miles is indeed a long commuter haul by anyone's standards, and I don't know how many folks made the entire run everyday, but there must have been some. >> When I lived in Berwyn, Pa, in early 70's, took the kids to downtown Philly to see Santa on one of these trains. Boarded at Paoli and there were a considerable group of people (though a lot may have been from Lancaster) already on board the Silverliner. All I can remember is that the kid's excitement over the train ride was dimmed(excuse the pun) by the blackened windows of the PC cars (By then Silverliner was a misnomer, too, as I recall). However, the Silverliners were good riders. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:55:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender for I1sa in HO In a message dated 9/9/1999 7:17:06 PM Central Daylight Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << Third, any suggestions as to stuff I might've left off my to do list would be most welcome. >> Well, you could always punt like I did and model the one I1 that used an L1 tender in later years. :-) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Fire Trucks and X30 class box car 59861 From: "Michael E. Allen" Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:42:24 EDT In a message dated 09/08/1999 4:37:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cevans@onlinesecurities.net writes: > Any pictures? references? WAYNER, Robert J., PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD FRIEGHT AND PASSENGER CAR DIAGRAMS Page 77 mea ________________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Telephone 609-683-0356 Management Services Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen meallen@juno.com W.R Allen Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 23:08:52 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary Good Evening, Any word about the catenary article. "Chany, Christopher" wrote: Listers, Does Anyone have the handout from the Phila. Chapter PRRTH&S Modelers meeting on Catenary From April 24. Thanks, Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:44:56 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Some new photos Hi all, I recently bought a copy of "The Model Railroader Cyclopedia" 5th edition. This book is a compilation of photos, drawings and plans published in Model Railroader, and has many items of PRR interest. I recommend the book highly. Since the 5th edition was published back in 1947 (!), this is obviously a used copy I obtained. The book itself is a bit beat up and decrepid, but it comes with it's own bit of history - the inside front cover is inscribed "To Frank from Polly Xmas '48". It also had (in between the pages) two photographs, presumably taken by the origional owner (Frank I presume!). One is of the tail end of a PRR freight featuring center-cupola N6b cabin car PRR 980936. The other is a nice photo of PRR Atlantic 7002, all decked out in shiny new paint, probably for the 1939 World's Fair. As I though others might enjoy seeing these (presumably never published) photos, they can be viewed on my web pages at http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/cabin/PR980936.JPG and http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/proto/prr/loco/PRR7002.JPG Enjoy, and until later... Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 01:31:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] My reflection' about the PRRT&HSquestion (very long) Hi Gize, I still smell burnt hair from the flames I took back in 1997 for making a sarcastic remark about the Keystone, so I am only cautiously poking my head up on this issue. I would hope that we could continue this discussion on a civil level. Sarcasm and invective do nothing to solve problems The one thing all who participate must accept and understand that those who are taking the time to respond to this thread are doing so out of a great commitment and concern for the subject, I.e., the PRRT&HS. We all must respect those feeling and concerns even if we disagree with the opinions. I should also say that this point that I allowed my PRRT&HS membership to lapse o ut of economic necessity because of ill health of my wife and my self, not out of dissatisfaction with the society. I have let all my railroad subscriptions lapse as well. The first to be renewed, when I am fiscally able, will be the PRRT&HS. My attraction to the society is twofold, as a historian and as a modeler. The Keystone is an extremely important resource and I fully intend top purchase all back issues. And being a procrastinator, I'm among those who, some complain about, bitch but do nothing. I'm working but being such a long distance from the Pennsylvania State Archives and the Hagely Museum, I've been unable to get the documents I need for the articles I'm working on -- a comprehensive N6 prototype and construction article and a discussion of the Columbus yards -- through interlibrary. I think I may be able to make the trip later this year. Once all my questions are answered I turn into a writing fool. If you notice I didn't mention Lewistown or Lewiston, there's a reason for it. An uncatalogued achieve is useless to a researcher. When it is catalogued I'll consider it a resource. I'd feel a whole lot better If someone could assure. me that the society has at least two PCs in Lewiston, and at least one with a flat bed and a negative scanner attached and an effective archiving and retrieval program. That way I would be assured that the cataloguing project t would not have to be duplicated to maker it digitally accessable.I've been modeling 12 years and an active member of PRR-talk now for three. I've heard it said a lot of times that the records are being catalogued but I've not head few details of how it's being done, what's being added to the data base and how we can support it and enhance it. It wasn't until I joined PRR Talk that I joined the PRRT&HS. Prior to that the only contact I've had with the organization was through a Web site that was never updated and the address for the society or the Philly chapter which was published monthly in Mainline Modeler. IN short, the Society was doing nothing to inform me, an ideal candidate for membership, the values and privileges of being a member; nor was it making any effort to counteract the negative comments I was getting from former members in my area who were of the unanimous opinion that the PRRT&HS did not appear interested in catering to the needs and wants of modelers or Lines West fans. It's an axiom of retailing that if a customer has a good experience with a store, the will tell three people, nearly always a family member or friend. However if that same average shopper had a negative experience at the same store, they'd usually tell an average of NINE people, often telling total strangers about their experience. As another author of a post on this thread I read tonight, it's this lack of outreach, of an apparent growth strategy which worries me most. One of the main goals of any volunteer organization must be recruitment. For unless it continually brings in new blood, the organization will stagnate and die. New members are far more important than just a fresh source of dues revenue. A person's commitment and energy to a volunteer organization are never greater than when they choose to change their lives forever by joining. your organization. A common hubris of volunteer based organizations is that the benefits of members and involvement are so self evident that no recruitment is needed. Unless corrected, it is a hubris nearly always rewarded with a liquidation sale and a lot of hand wringing. There is a lot of competition for all of our time. If you're going to attract new members, you mutt show the positive benefits of membership. But most importantly and most often forgot, the organization or its members must consciously invite people to join. Any change, even good change, is stressful so often any change is avoided. Further, most of us fear rejection, so an organization which successfully recruits must establish a culture which welcomes and accepts new members enthusiastically and warmly and, most importantly, listen and accept their ideas. Once someone's paid their dues, they feel they have some ownership. That and common courtesy requires thoughtful consideration of new members' suggestions, but more importantly, they have a fresh point of view which may solve some long standing chalking of the organization solely because they are from outside of the predominate organizational culture. Before you dismiss any new member's ideas, take the time find out who you are dealing with. They may not only may know what they are talking about but the might be very good at it too. Take Greg Martin, for example, If you don't read Mainline Modeler or Model Railroading, you may not realize that Greg and his Big brother Ed Martin are two of the best if not "THE BEST" model construction authors at this time. Their stories, which are nearly all on PRR prototypes are thoughtfully and accurately researched. (Ed's TYCO N8 kitbash article in the Nov. 90 Mainline Modeler encouraged me to beyond the simple shake the box kits.) If this isn't too your liking, then establish a probationary period for new member so it is clear that their ideas will be ignored. That way there will be on misunderstanding. Often new members are told to go slow, to not rock the boat or that they don understand the organization's history. The responses are clear indicators that the organization has a bias against change. It is possible to accept new people and new ideas without giving the barbarians the key to paradise. Another complaint about the organization is that it closely guards information about the PRR especially from nonmember. Again, a forthright growth policy would include an explanation about the unique situate with the history of PRR/PC archive at Lewistown and who knows, we might stumble across that lone wolf Pennsy fan and modeler out there who's the who will complete the archive. An organization must make itself available. T is in this area which, IMHO, THE prrt&hs FAILS MOST MISERABLY Pennsylvania WAS THE NAME OF A RAILROAD WITH OPERATED IN 14 (Fourteen)) states) and one Canadian province. PRR Lines West operated in Eight states while Lines east operated in seven states and one Provence. The Pennsylvania Railroad is not the name of a railroad that ran only in Pennsylvania. Yet the current leadership does not seem interested into attaching members of other geographical areas. There national conventions are being held in the same eastern Pennsylvania City, reducing the changes that those who think differently will show up. This then lead to self fulfilling fantasies that everybody in the organization thinks the same way that you do. If everyone is in constant agreement then something is wrong. Discussion and debate are the anvil on which successful organizations are forged. They should be welcomed, not discouraged. I have never been informed if there e are any other PRRT&HS members in western Ohio or eastern Indiana. A growth oriented organization encourages and in some cases actively recruit and organize local organizations because they understand this I the foundation on which successful organizations are built. And lastly, an organization must change with the times. There hasn't been a PRR for 32 years. Pennsy railfanning is getting real hard to do. The only large group of people with an interest in this information are modelers. I ran in one of my local PRR buddies this after noon. His exclusive interest is in full size railroading but he readily admitted that his is a dying breed, that if the PRRT&HS is to survive at it current level or better, if must acknowledge that modeling is one of the primary interests of its members. Other things I've read bother me. Referring to a noncommercial purism. If the society is not going to actively recruit new members, then other successful revenue are needed. Giving away rights to the origination's intellectual property to commercial interests without a royalty agreement. I plan on selling PRR logo wear clothing I would not be adverse to paying a reasonable royalty on my products if I knew it was going for a good purpose. Such actions make me wonder how serious the current BOD about organizing the Lewistown collection if the are not willing to utilize all available sources of finances. Also, I think that the non advertising policy of the Keystone should be revisited. This would stabilize to Keystone's production costs, keep future dues increases to a minimum so that more may join the organization. A volunteer organization is very much a business and need to operate like one to survive. Few businesses could survive without a sales department, a human resources department and a recruitment program. I hope this makes sense. I'm not in favor of founding a separate modeling organization outside the PRRT&HS but feel strongly there should be officially scantiness modeling SIGS (Electric, steam, rolling stock, HO Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary (all you need to know) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:15:04 -0400 Here is a photo taken by the PRR showing catenary in detail. http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr003.htm Does this answer your questions? Bill V. (Also a Rambling Wreck ('58)) -----Original Message----- From: John F. Ryan, Jr. To: PRR-Talk Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary >Good Evening, > >Any word about the catenary article. > > "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > >Listers, >Does Anyone have the handout from the Phila. Chapter PRRTH&S Modelers > meeting on Catenary From April 24. > >Thanks, >Chris Chany > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:05:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Go Nuts on eBay Today! From: "Jerry Britton" Apparently eBay offered free listings yesterday. They received well over 3 million new items up for bid. You'll find the following, among others: 44 new pages in Railroadiana: General 29 new pages in Railroadiana: Paper 42 new pages in Models: HO Each page has about 50 items. Each of the above categories usually only has 10-15 new pages daily. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender for I1sa in HO Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 06:23:17 -0700 Doug and all... I know the tender, it's one of the Varney ones Bowser picked up some years ago. I think it's off their "old timer - Casey Jones" series of locomotive kits. Yes, it does have the general outline of the 90F82 tender used on the I1s/a locomotives, and it would make a decent stand-in. The only problems I see are that the rivet patterns are wrong, but that can be either ignored or fixed with a wrapper, and the casting is a million years old. If I were doing my I1sa right now, I would prefer to scratch build one using styrene. Currently there is a series running in MAINLINE MODELER on scratchbuilding steam in styrene...you might want to check it out for ideas. However, I know that one of the resin kit producers is seriously thinking of doing these tenders in the somewhat near future...I've been bugging him about it and he seems agreeable, although he is currently getting some bugs out of his first release, and has some other higher priorities to address first. So the I1sa languishes on the closet shelf for now. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fire Trucks and X30 class box car 59861 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:43:59 -0400 For a bit more info on the X30 you can check out my web site at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X30 Rob prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: Michael E. Allen To: SUVCWORR@aol.com Cc: cevans@onlinesecurities.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Fire Trucks and X30 class box car 59861 > >In a message dated 09/08/1999 4:37:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >cevans@onlinesecurities.net writes: > >> Any pictures? references? > >WAYNER, Robert J., PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD FRIEGHT AND PASSENGER CAR >DIAGRAMS Page 77 > >mea >________________________________________________________ >PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Telephone 609-683-0356 >Management Services Telecopier >609-683-0192 >Michael E. Allen > meallen@juno.com >W.R Allen Associates >wrallenassoc@earthlink.net > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:50:08 -0700 Subject: [PRR] My reflection' about... Tom wrote: > Other things I've read bother me. Referring to a noncommercial purism. > If > the society is not going to actively recruit new members, then other > successful revenue are needed. Giving away rights to the origination's > intellectual property to commercial interests without a royalty agreement. > I plan on selling PRR logo wear clothing I would not be adverse to paying > a reasonable royalty on my products if I knew it was going for a good > purpose. Such actions make me wonder how serious the current BOD about > organizing the Lewistown collection if the are not willing to utilize all > available sources of finances. Also, I think that the non advertising > policy of the Keystone should be revisited. I'm not exactly sure I understood your point here Tom. But I do happen to be wearing my Tuscan-red sweatshirt with a PRR keystone on it. It has the word "Lewistown" just below the Keystone. It looks nice, I enjoy wearing it. I bought it when I visited Lewistown station some years back... Altho I am not entirely positive, I assume this was a PRRT&HS-sponsored undertaking?!? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: [PRR] wanted: HO scale L1 builders plates Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:47:32 -0400 > About 3 years ago Walthers had a large selection of PRR specific builders > trust plates in their cataloge from a company called Custom Railway > Supply. They were brass and the kit included the number plate, builders > plate, and an id plate for the tender. These items are no longer > available. I hoping that someone may have a set of these and would be > willing to sell them. > > I need a set for an L1 Mikado w/ a 90F75 tender. If any can help or knows > of someone that can please e-mail me. > > thanks, > > Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] wanted: HO scale L1 builders plates Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:26:24 -0400 Kris, Within the last week there was a message with the address of Custom Railway supply. I believe it is a hobby shop in Colorado. Check MR and RMC. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS What's your Complaint ! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 06:08:59 -0400 To all, If Jerry were to count how many of the list members have complained about the PRRT&HS in the last year, and bang that list up against the total membership of the PRRT&HS that is on line....I don't think the numbers would add up correctly. First of all I am a National PRRT&HS and a Local chapter member, and I have gone to the National Conventions, and do attend local chapter meetings. I believe that the Present and Past Officers of the PRRT&HS have done a great job, and I hope that they continue to do so in the future. It just gulls me to know that for every list member out there complaining about the leadership of the PRRT&HS, that (probably) some maybe most are not even dues paying members, supporting the origination that they are chiming in about. So if your not hiding behind someone else's dues....List your PRRT&HS membership number with your name when you close your message. In every origination that I have ever been involved in there are 10% of the members doing most of the work, 20% say that they will be by your side when needed, 10% of those can't usually be found when needed......and 60% talkers, who take credit, bitch, complain about the way things are done, but are never to be found amongst the first 20%. Ah yes, the last 10% are the butt heads that don't belong, but will always chime in on a free-be, to give advise or say what's wrong with something! OK which are you !!!! 1) Have you written an article for the Keystone and sent it in to them? 2) Have you done a model review for them ? 3) What is your expertise in the Hobby / History of the PRR ? Have you let them know? 4) Have you ever worked a convention ? Have you offered to lately ? 5) If you can't make it to a National Convention, have you held a minie-convention for your area ? Call it the "PRR Modeling Society", and have your get together. As the Santa Fe Molders on the east coast have done for years ! But quit bitching.... 6) What have you done for the HOBBY, or for the History of the PRR lately ? You can be a member of a local chapter and NOT be a member of the PRRT&HS...... NO PROBLEM !!! BUT YOU ARE STILL NOT A MEMBER OF THE PRRT&HS so don't complain about it ! Nothing in this world is free...This also is true for the PRRT&HS. Pay the dues, pitch in and get involved. And if you want to vote as a "block of votes" then you must ALL be PAID MEMBERS of that origination ( PRRT&HS), it only takes one person without membership to discredit the whole effort! I have heard....move the date of the convention to....... because I can't go because of ( school, vacation, etc..) Hell there will never be a date that some of us don't have something to do......get a life ! I work for a living also, and I take vacation to attend, if I want to attend, don't put your excuse for not attending on the PRRT&HS, put it were it belongs.....On you! And if you think that I am probably STEAMED......remember it's steam that made the wheels go round! Bill #1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. The sermon is over ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:35:02 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender for I1sa in HO Bill and the list, Thanks for your input!. I agree that my tender is ancient. However, I don't want to be in the position of waiting for a resin tender that might not ever materialize. I was extremely excited when Liberty Model Productions announced a whole series of PRR tenders and was unable to follow through due to financial problems. Therefore, I think in this case, the better might be the enemy of the good (or at least adequate). Would you happen to have an address for Mainline Modeller Magazine? I have a NWSL sensipress and riveter tool; your suggestion might be the way to go.... Thanks in advance! Doug Bill Daniels wrote: > Doug and all... > > I know the tender, it's one of the Varney ones Bowser picked up some years > ago. I think it's off their "old timer - Casey Jones" series of locomotive > kits. Yes, it does have the general outline of the 90F82 tender used on the > I1s/a locomotives, and it would make a decent stand-in. The only problems I > see are that the rivet patterns are wrong, but that can be either ignored or > fixed with a wrapper, and the casting is a million years old. If I were > doing my I1sa right now, I would prefer to scratch build one using styrene. > Currently there is a series running in MAINLINE MODELER on scratchbuilding > steam in styrene...you might want to check it out for ideas. > > However, I know that one of the resin kit producers is seriously thinking of > doing these tenders in the somewhat near future...I've been bugging him > about it and he seems agreeable, although he is currently getting some bugs > out of his first release, and has some other higher priorities to address > first. So the I1sa languishes on the closet shelf for now. > > Bill Daniels > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:48:44 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender for I1sa in HO Rick, Thanks for your offer! By any chance, is yours the site that has links from Rob's PRR page? The pictures there were superb, and gave me great details on the twin pump configuration, amongst other things. About a year ago, the Keystone mentioned that the RR Museum of Pennsylvania was trying to bring 4483 to the museum. Have you or anyone else heard anything further about this? Thanks again!! Doug RTSILLER@aol.com wrote: > Doug, > > Glad to hear you're modeling I1 #4483. I live only about 15 minutes from > where it sits so let me know if there is any specific info or details you may > need about the engine. I've got a few detail pictures that are not on my web > page and could always get a few more if there is a particular part of the > engine or tender on which you needed more detail. Good luck with your model > and let me know how it goes. > > Regards, > Rick Siller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:37:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS What's your Complaint ! From: "Doug and Marianne" >Bill >#1818 >(boxcar46@nfdc.net) >End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. > > >The sermon is over ! > Amen. Doug #4872 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:59:44 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] wanted: HO scale L1 builders plates Kris, I have no idea where or how to find Custom Railway Supply. However, Schuylkill Divsion c/o Doug Jones 9835 Singleton Drive Bethesda, MD 20817-2300, has L1s builder's plates for seven different L1s engines. They sell for $10/set, and include two builder's plates and a number plate. Mr Jones also sells PRR tender badge plates for L1s tenders (90F75) for $5.00. Shipping is $2.00 per order. If, like myself, you plan on a 110F75 for your L1s, he sells those, too. As I've said/drooled in previous posts, they're great photetched products, and I really like them. Hope this helps! Doug "Kollar, Kris" wrote: > > About 3 years ago Walthers had a large selection of PRR specific builders > > trust plates in their cataloge from a company called Custom Railway > > Supply. They were brass and the kit included the number plate, builders > > plate, and an id plate for the tender. These items are no longer > > available. I hoping that someone may have a set of these and would be > > willing to sell them. > > > > I need a set for an L1 Mikado w/ a 90F75 tender. If any can help or knows > > of someone that can please e-mail me. > > > > thanks, > > > > Kris > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:05:04 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Date of first I1sa twin air pump conversion Hello list, In what's become an ongoing saga, I have yet another I1sa question. I'm modelling 1948-52, and I'd like to know when the I1sa twin air pump conversions entered service. Photos of them are relatively rare and all seem to date in the 1950s. I searched the PRR talk archives, and could find no consensus on when the twin pump conversions were first done. Can anyone enlighten me? I promise, after this engine is done, I will return to the K4s pacifics I know and love so well (until I absolutely positively have to have an H6sb....). Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: STOP THREAD - Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS What's your Complaint ! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 99 20:41:51 -0400 From: Jerry FROM THE LISTMEISTER: On 9/10/99 6:08 AM, boxcar46 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) wrote: >So if your not hiding behind someone else's dues....List your >PRRT&HS membership number with your name when you close your message. While Bill makes many good points, the tone is getting quite hot here. True, many of the complainers are not society members. However, many are. Since there are now over 350 people on this list and only a few are propogating this discussion, please cease it. Those who signed up to be "Charter Members" of the "Cyber Chapter" are discussing on the "Cyber-Talk" list constructive ways to improve the society. Everyone on this list IS a national member of the PRRT&HS. The society doesn't want to acknowledge a Cyber Chapter at present, so we are organizing outside of the society, but in cooperation rather than in competition. As we iron things out a bit more, we will make online announcements. Again, please stop the society bashing on the list. Thank you! -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] wanted: HO scale L1 builders plates Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:06:24 -0700 Custom Railway Supply lives! Albeit, under different ownership. Custom Railway Supply 432 W. Fillmore Colorado Springs, CO. 80907 (719) 634-4616 They have a limited number of some of the old PRR etched loco number plates, tower signs, crossbucks, etc. left. Give them a call! Mark T. Evans -----Original Message----- From: Kollar, Kris To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 9:55 AM Subject: [PRR] wanted: HO scale L1 builders plates > >> About 3 years ago Walthers had a large selection of PRR specific builders >> trust plates in their cataloge from a company called Custom Railway >> Supply. They were brass and the kit included the number plate, builders >> plate, and an id plate for the tender. These items are no longer >> available. I hoping that someone may have a set of these and would be >> willing to sell them. >> >> I need a set for an L1 Mikado w/ a 90F75 tender. If any can help or knows >> of someone that can please e-mail me. >> >> thanks, >> >> Kris > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:08:14 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Branchline Has something happened to Branchline or has their URL changed? I haven't been able to get on their sight for over a week. www.branchline-trains.com John "Green Light" Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:30:29 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] current doings on "The Limited" Hello all, Been busy the last month or so and wanted to drop a note to you all to let you know about progress on "The Limited". The site is going through yet another restructuring (aw fer cryin out loud, Bob!) and I think this one will do the trick. The new format is based entirely on search engines on the historical section index page. Instead of the cumbersome link trees (which have been the bottleneck of this site from the beginning) you can now zoom directly to whatever subject you want. Over the last month, I have restructured almost all the pages on the site and reloaded them. In the process, a lot of the pages that were little more than outlines have been removed. Partially completed topics have been finished (or at least upgraded), artwork and maps improved and a fair amount of new material added. Also - Yep, it's time for yet another Opinion Poll (sigh) This one is kind of philosophical and the answers we've gotten are interesting. I hope you will drop by and give us your input. On business doings- the paperwork is off to the banks, so we see something happen shortly. If things hold well, we might be open by the first of the year. Busy, busy, busy! I hope you folks will take a bit to drop by "The Limited", say hello to Psycho, and let me know what you think of the new(est) format. Until then, all my best, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RE: Date of the first I1sa with duel Air Pumps ----- Doug, There you go again! Making me get out my photo collection and enjoying the views. I have lots of I1-I1sa photos so I figured I would make my observations on your question public. I scanned through the album that contains the Hippos and I see the earliest photo I have of the duel airpump I1s is Sept 13 1936. This loco number is 4570. She was later converted to an I1sa in June 1939. The earliest I1sa photo I have with duel airpumps is July 7, 1937. She was converted from an I1s in Dec. 1935. The earliest date that I can come up with of an I1 being reclassed to an I1sa is May of 1931, Loco number 4384. I have a photo of her dated July 28, 1933 and she does not have the air pump on the engineers side at this time. I do not have a later shot of this loco to see if she got that pump later in her life. I hope that is the answer to your question. I forgot what it actually was. You are modeling #4483? If so I have 2 photos of her. One is dated April 1956 and she is setting in Northumberland. I thought it was in storage with the collection of other Steamers that was saved. But then I found a later photo of her on June 1957 in Sunbury. But she only had 2 more months of active service and then was dropped from the records in August. Oh well, at least she is still around anyway......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 07:45:00 -0400 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline I have also been unable to get into their distributor site for several weeks. Maybe they are tired of people asking where the long-advertised 50' double door cars are. F. Brua John F. Ryan, Jr. wrote: > Has something happened to Branchline or has their URL changed? I > haven't been able to get on their sight for over a week. > > www.branchline-trains.com > > John "Green Light" Ryan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 11 Sep 99 10:12:17 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR T&HS What's your Complaint ! AMEN to: Bill's (boxcar46@nfdc.net)sermon. Phila Chaper PRTH&S #1485 TVPete@usa.net ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] Testing Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:14:05 -0700 Server down? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Testing Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:16:53 -0700 Nah...it's just the weekend. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: endeimling@mindspring.com To: PRR Forum Date: Saturday, September 11, 1999 4:19 PM Subject: [PRR] Testing >Server down? > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:28:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] testing We've only received 2 messages from PRR-TALK today. Don't know but it could be the holidays or the nice weather (this area anyway). Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:49:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [DTI_Modeler] Cincinnati trains GP38's and 38-2's were also used on the DT&I trains. In addition, the SD38's were used on the DEEX unit trains from time to time. I have a slide showing a pair of SD38's bringing an empty DEEX train over the L&N bridge. DC9 terminated in the L&N's Decoursey yard starting in 1976 after the Conrail merger. The train would bypass Sharonville, and head down the ex-PRR's Richmond branch to Red Bank where it would head down the former PRR main past Undercliff and Pendleton to Oasis. There is would head up and over the L&N bridge to Newport. From there it followed the L&N's Newport line to Latonia, where it turned South down the KY main to Decoursey. Previous to 1976 the train terminated at Sharonville, and was transfered over to the L&N. However, I have a photograph from 1973 that shows a DC8 consist heading North up the L&N at KC Jct. This would indicate that the train would continue on to Decoursey previous to the Conrail merger down the NYC through downtown Cincinnati. Back to Undercliff. After the Conrail merger, the DT&I trains would line up at Undercliff. Again I have a slide that shows DT&I trains lined up on the few remaining tracks at Undercliff in about 1978. This may have been where the split of DC7 and 9 took place. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:31:03 -0400 From: 442 Subject: [PRR] Has everyone gotten the E-BAY notice about 15 times? I have gotten it at least that many times. It is starting to clog up things. I sent Jerry a note about it but it seems that the same e-mail keeps going out. If somebody can get in touch with Jerry faster than I can let him know about it. 442 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] AS616 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 06:43:45 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BEFCEA.2938FCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi List I only got the e-bay notice three times. But maybe I am in the doghouse. A while ago, I posted concerning the practicality of changing a Stewart = AS16 into a discontinued AS616 by swapping the trucks (and doing what = ever else was necessary). In talking with them discovered two critical = points. First being that project is impossible as currently no one makes a = staggered three axel powered truck. Remember it is a C truck. (groan). But Santa my be able to deposite a pair of Baldwins in my stocking as = they plan to issue a re-engineered product prior to Christmas. I just = hope Santa is listening. Just thought I would pass this along. Walt=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BEFCEA.2938FCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi List
 
I only got the e-bay notice three = times. But maybe=20 I am in the doghouse.
 
A while ago, I posted concerning the = practicality=20 of changing a Stewart AS16 into a discontinued AS616 by swapping the = trucks (and=20 doing what ever else was necessary). In talking with them discovered two = critical points.
 
First being that project is impossible = as currently=20 no one makes a staggered three axel powered truck. Remember it is a C = truck.=20 (groan).
 
But Santa my be able to deposite a pair = of Baldwins=20 in my stocking as they plan to issue a re-engineered product prior to = Christmas.=20 I just hope Santa is listening.
Just thought I would pass this = along.
 
Walt 
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BEFCEA.2938FCE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 07:30:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] AS616 Walt - Ran into the same problem designing the drive for our new transfer engine. Try Athearn as they do manufacture offset power trucks. I'm not sure about the particular wheelbase for your project but they are usually pretty close. They also manufacture a variety of sideframes that can be easily reworked. Hope it helps - John Trainstuff LLC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:16:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] AS616 On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Walt Prusick wrote: > But Santa my be able to deposite a pair of Baldwins in my stocking as they plan to issue a re-engineered product prior to Christmas. I just hope Santa is listening. > Just thought I would pass this along. If you can get a set of the original trucks, do so. My understanding is the new trucks will be based on those under the C628s, but with new sideframes, and hence won't be quite right in terms of wheelbase. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:23:24 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] AS616 --------------913AFAB6A5D9B45E79831FC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Walt: Derrick Brashear is right when he said that the Stewart C628 trucks are not quite right for the AS616. The C628's are a bit shorter in wheelbase. I just made a comparison of the two. I believe the difference is small enough that it won't be very noticeable, particularly if Stewart uses their old side frames and positions them evenly. The old AS616 trucks have exposed gearing and can pick up stray foreign things such as ballast. Not Good! Also, the new trucks should be much smother running than the old ones. The old ones are not so hot. I have two Stewart AS616's and hardly run them due to their mediocre running characteristics. I'm looking forward to the new run, as I love this Baldwin engine. Regards, Larry Walt Prusick wrote: > But Santa my be able to deposite a pair of Baldwins in my stocking > as they plan to issue a re-engineered product prior to Christmas. I > just hope Santa is listening.Just thought I would pass this > along. Walt --------------913AFAB6A5D9B45E79831FC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Walt:

Derrick Brashear is right when he said that the Stewart C628 trucks are not quite right for the AS616.  The C628's are a bit shorter in wheelbase.  I just made a comparison of the two.  I believe the difference is small enough that it won't be very noticeable, particularly if Stewart uses their old side frames and positions them evenly.  The old AS616 trucks have exposed gearing and can pick up stray foreign things such as ballast.  Not Good!  Also, the new trucks should be much smother running than the old ones.  The old ones are not so hot.  I have two Stewart AS616's and hardly run them due to their mediocre running characteristics.  I'm looking forward to the new run, as I love this Baldwin engine.

Regards,  Larry

Walt Prusick wrote:

    But Santa my be able to deposite a pair of Baldwins in my stocking as they plan to issue a re-engineered product prior to Christmas. I just hope Santa is listening.Just thought I would pass this along. Walt
  --------------913AFAB6A5D9B45E79831FC2-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:34:40 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Stewart RS-3, Phases 2 and 3, release of Athearn Mikados Hello list, Does anyone know when Stewart might rerelease their RS-3 model with their revised drive system? Their web page hasn't been updated in a while (they're doubtless quite busy with the F-unit rereleases and the FT project, not to mention the C628s). Their magazine ads have mentioned the F-units. While these are excellent, I'm more interested in the RS-3, phase 2 as a supplement to my steam fleet. Also, does anyone know when the Athearn Mikados might be appearing? I'm eagerly awaiting these, too. Thanks in advance!! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:35:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Date of first I1sa twin air pump conversion In message "doug.kisala" writes: > Hello list, > > In what's become an ongoing saga, I have yet another I1sa question. > I'm modelling 1948-52, and I'd like to know when the I1sa twin air pump > conversions entered service. I have the engineering drawings of both the 1 and 2 compressor versions of the I-1 (obtained, of course, from the PRRT&HS). I think the various changes are dated, including when the 1 compressor version was considered obsolete, but they are at home so I will have to go look. For anyone interested: I visited 4483 again this summer and took another 2.5 rolls of BW film. This in addition to the two rolls I took last summer. Most are detail shots for my modeling. Anyone wanting to make prints are welcome to borrow the negatives. If you want to know what the photos are before requesting, contact me offline for a list. The left side is not covered as well as the right side. There is thick brush next to the left side and it is difficult to get back far enough to get decent shots of whole structures. I damn near broke my leg when I stepped in a hole that was covered with twigs and leaves trying to photo the left side. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 17:01:45 -0400 Just how many SEPTA MU cars out there still have their PRR markings? Anyone know what numbers? My Dad saw a "Pennsylvania" MU car at Claymont DE in May. -Josh Trower ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:29:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active I remember seeing two cars earlier this year. One had "PENNSYLVAINIA" completly on the letter board, the car no. not positive,but thought it was 259. the other car had half of the spelling but can not recall which half. No keystones, just "SEPTA" name and logo. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:45:49 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: [PRR] Building at Horseshoe Curve Can any one tell me the story behind the little block building with the four hip roof that sits track side near the apex of the curve? I've built a replica of this building and would like to know what it's purpose is/was. Thanks, Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:13:16 -0400 From: jpbtrans Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active Tom, There were three Septa cars that were in the Altoona area during the convention, one still had "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboard Jon (jpbtrans@gateway.net) Thomas K. Trower wrote: > > Just how many SEPTA MU cars out there still have their PRR markings? Anyone know what numbers? My Dad saw a "Pennsylvania" MU car at Claymont DE in May. > > -Josh Trower > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] BCW car kits Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:37:10 -0500 Hi, all, I recently purchased a couple of Bethlehem Car Works cars - an M70b and the B60. I noticed that the sides were a bit wavy, fairly common on this kit as I understand it. Any recommended way to correct his successfully? George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] BCW car kits Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:37:10 -0500 Hi, all, I recently purchased a couple of Bethlehem Car Works cars - an M70b and the B60. I noticed that the sides were a bit wavy, fairly common on this kit as I understand it. Any recommended way to correct his successfully? George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] BCW car kits Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:37:10 -0500 Hi, all, I recently purchased a couple of Bethlehem Car Works cars - an M70b and the B60. I noticed that the sides were a bit wavy, fairly common on this kit as I understand it. Any recommended way to correct his successfully? George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] BCW car kits Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:37:10 -0500 Hi, all, I recently purchased a couple of Bethlehem Car Works cars - an M70b and the B60. I noticed that the sides were a bit wavy, fairly common on this kit as I understand it. Any recommended way to correct his successfully? George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] BCW car kits Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:37:10 -0500 Hi, all, I recently purchased a couple of Bethlehem Car Works cars - an M70b and the B60. I noticed that the sides were a bit wavy, fairly common on this kit as I understand it. Any recommended way to correct his successfully? George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:41:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Building at Horseshoe Curve From: "Doug and Marianne" Larry asked: >Can any one tell me the story behind the little block building with the >four hip roof that sits track side near the apex of the curve? I've >built a replica of this building and would like to know what it's >purpose is/was. > That is an interesting question. I hope that someone can answer it. There is a similar stone building at Tunnel Hill (east end of the Galitzen tunnels). It sits along the "slide", just east of the New Portage tunnel. It houses active equipment (air compressor to operate switches?) It has been well maintained with a relatively new roof. Any difinitive answers?? Doug N. Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:01:26 -0400 From: jpbtrans Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active Tom, I just looked at my pictures from the convention. The number on the septa car with "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboard is 244 Jon jpbtrans wrote: > > Tom, > > There were three Septa cars that were in the Altoona area during the > convention, one still had "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboard > > Jon (jpbtrans@gateway.net) > > Thomas K. Trower wrote: > > > > Just how many SEPTA MU cars out there still have their PRR markings? Anyone know what numbers? My Dad saw a "Pennsylvania" MU car at Claymont DE in May. > > > > -Josh Trower > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:40:31 -0500 From: bkroger@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] engineers for RFK funeral train This message was forwarded to me, as the Age of Steam Museum has PRR 4903 - the second unit in RFK's funeral train. Anyone have any information for this fellow? Thanks, Ben Kroger Age of Steam Railroad Museum Dear Sir, I am a train history researcher from Belgium (Europe) and I'd like to know the name and address of the engine driver that drove the funeral train from Robert Kennedy on 8.6.1968. If you don't have this information, could you give me the email adresses of railroad employees or organisations in New York or Washington that might know more about this matter? I thank you sincerely for your help! Jan Hertoghs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RE: Building at Horseshoe Curve List, I too would like the story be told on this little structure. It must have been an important lttle building because it dates back to when the curve was single and or double track. Although way back then it was a wooden structure. Was it shelter for a track walker? Just a thought. ..... Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:05:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] "inside" conemaugh dam So, today I took a walk along the former right of way inside Conemaugh Dam. Including the bridge just below the dam, there are 6 bridges along the old right of way through the lake. I know now that the easternmost 4 of these still exist; I have not yet been to the eastern 2 to check. I was already aware of the one below the dam, but didn't get there for pictures today. You can find the shots I did get at http://www.dementia.org/~shadow/trains/conemaugh Basically, in order to get shots of anything other than the bridges I got or the tunnel portal I'll have to wait until there's less foliage. There's no trace of any rail facilities other than the cuts, bridges and tunnel anywhere that I was today, though. The lake level is probably lower than normal due to the ongoing drought locally, but the westernmost bridge behind the dam only had about 4 feet of arch exposed. The next-to-westernmost bridge still had the mounting hardware from the metal railings in place partway along the structure. Note that in the back of 0912_011.jpg there's a bridge over a ravine on the current Conemaugh alignment visible, barely. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:21:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Building at Horseshoe Curve if i recall correctly, this building once housed a water pump or something of that nature. of course, im sure there are tons of people more knowledgable than i am about this subject, so i wouldnt place any bets on myself being correct. sean mcd ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:17:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] AS616 In a message dated 99-09-12 13:27:22 EDT, you write: << Derrick Brashear is right when he said that the Stewart C628 trucks are not quite right for the AS616. The C628's are a bit shorter in wheelbase. >> The basic Westinghouse (larger) motor, larger tri-mount "C" truck vs. GE (smaller) motor, smaller "C" truck" situation. Exact dimensions appear in Diesel Spotters Guide (which is back home in PA at the moment). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:03:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] who has the best RS-3? Hey Yuze Gize, I have all four RS-3's in my collection with duplicates on a couple. For authenticity the best RS-3 I have found is the MDC. The cab is correct by drawings I have put them on (the Atlas and the Stewart don't match). The truck centers are correct (the Stewart's are not). The body length is correct (the Atlas fails miserably here) The louvers are the right length (Atlas's are too long and Hobbytown plastic are a bit small). The top of the long hood has the correct slots (the Stewart's are missing, I wonder if he will ever fix that)? Now if you consider the power trains for pulling and authentic speed, well it would have to be Hobbytown drive but the old drive had an open frame motor which made it noisy and brass wheel sets. The original MDC power frame ran wheel but was a bit noisy and was geared low like the Hobbytown. The Atlas was quiet responsive and is likely the best drive if you want to haul an average HO train, but I dislike the toyish side frames, AHM's RS-2's are better. The Stewart well it runs like an Athearn what else needs to be said. Wheel base is too short and the top speed to high, too little room to add weight so it doesn't haul as much as the Atlas. Things I like are the MDC Cab with the correct fireman's side window, the separate handrail stanchions, the new and improved drive (although I like the early drive to) the truck sideframes are great either the new or old ones are tops. This is in my opinion the best of the four. The Hobbytown is second and the Atlas third, and the right on Atlas's tail is the Stewart. Stewart has an advantage to sales because they have the phase 2&3 versions the others don't. You need only to order the correct truck from MDC to make it a dead neck tie for third. One thing that makes the Stewart kit a nice addition is the fuel tank has some options. The Atlas is a problem here like the Hobbytown. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:59:18 -0700 Subject: [PRR] FM Erie Built modeling question From: "Doug and Marianne" I'm modeling a set of FM Erie builts in N scale. The shell that I have from JnJ Trains is a fairly good casting, but the two large circular roof exhaust grates are lacking detail. Were these screen grates similar to the ones found on Alco PA? Did they have fans under them, and could you see the fans when viewing from above? Unlike the PA, these grates were apparently contoured to the curvature of the roof. There is a fairly good overall roof photo in Pennsy Power II, but I'm looking for a more detailed view of the exhaust grates. Thanks for any help. Doug N. Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:01:15 -0400 From: "\"David \\\"Fresh\\\" Freshwater\"" Subject: [PRR] RE: Building at Horseshow Curve According to "Horseshoe Heritage," by Dan Cupper, "In the spring of 1879, the railroad made waht is the first recorded effort to beautify Horseshoe Curve when it panted flower beds and built a watchman's shanty to resemble a Swiss cottage." (Page 17, right column, just above the picture.) Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD > Subject: Building at Horseshoe Curve > From: "Larry Reynolds" > Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:45:49 -0500 > > Can any one tell me the story behind the little block building with the > four hip roof that sits track side near the apex of the curve? I've > built a replica of this building and would like to know what it's > purpose is/was. > > Thanks, Larry > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:42:11 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW car kits George wrote: >I recently purchased a couple of Bethlehem Car Works cars - an M70b and the >B60. I noticed that the sides were a bit wavy, fairly common on this kit as >I understand it. Any recommended way to correct his successfully? Two things to do... 1) Put the side in the oven (YIKES!) at very low heat and let them "unwarp" or 2) Use pieces of styrene across the top of the sides once assembled to help pull in or push out the sides where needed One other reccomendations for this style of kit are to tack the sides to the bottom with ACC, and then to go back and fill the joint with a solvent cement. This also works well for the clerestory roof on ECW kits, which can be a bear to assemble. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:51:00 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender for I1sa in HO >Bob Zoeller wrote: >Well, you could always punt like I did and model the one I1 that used an L1 >tender in later years. :-) > So, what was the road # and locale of said I-1 ? Any idea when it was equipped with the tender? (I am assuming you mean a 90F75, rebuilt with an 82" deck?) Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:53:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Date of first I1sa twin air pump conversion I have the engineering drawings in front of me. These are labeled "Pennsylvania System. Locomotives. Air Brake Piping Arrangement." The plan for the one-compressor version was approved on 10-5-22 by mechanical engineer Kiesel and issued on 10-6-22. There are a number of relatively minor alterations noted in the open space below the drawings. The last of these is dated 5-17-29 and says "This tracing has been made obsolete and is superseded by C-09547." The drawing has "OBSOLETE" stamped in the margin below the alterations notes. The drawings for the two-compressor version were approved 8-23-29 mechanical engineer Kiesel and were issued 9-10-29. The first note reads "This tracing supersedes C70824 and D8851 which have been made obsolete on account of redesign of piping to provide for two air pumps" and is dated 8-23-29. The last reissue of this drawing was 11-9-45. Not all engines were converted. The single-compressor version lasted to the end of steam. I have right side photos of #4519 at Shamokin dated 12 Aug 1956 and #4543 at East Altoona dated 16 Aug 1955, both with one compressor. I have left side photos of #4499 at Renova dated 6 July 1953 and #3703 at Enola dated Nov 1954 that I am sure are one-compressor engines because the steam supply pipe does not cross over the top of the boiler. #3703, by the way, also lacks a feedwater heater, so if one were modeling this engine, there would be an injector pipe on both sides. The only concrete thing you can say about I-1 engines is that they were highly variable in their appearance. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:44:50 -0700 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] ping-pong coaches Hi, Does anyone on the list know the official designation of the Ping Pong coaches used on the LIRR? Thanks! Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash Department of Psychology P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 714-278-2669 714-278-7134 (Fax) E-Mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:44:50 -0700 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] ping-pong coaches Hi, Does anyone on the list know the official designation of the Ping Pong coaches used on the LIRR? Thanks! Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash Department of Psychology P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 714-278-2669 714-278-7134 (Fax) E-Mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:44:50 -0700 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] ping-pong coaches Hi, Does anyone on the list know the official designation of the Ping Pong coaches used on the LIRR? Thanks! Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash Department of Psychology P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 714-278-2669 714-278-7134 (Fax) E-Mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:33:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Marker lamp colors A fellow on eBay is offering a pair of what he calls marker lamps from a K4s tender. They have one red and 2 green lenses. That puzzles me, as all the PRR references I have seen indicate that PRR markers used red/yellow combinations. That in contrast to other lesser railroads, many of which used red/green combinations. I have seen footnotes in PRR rulebooks and/or employe timetables which indicate that "foreign" equipment equipped with red/green markers may use them in the manner prescribed for red/yellow markers while on PRR tracks, but no suggestion that PRR equipment was ever so equipped. I suppose my question is: Did some part of the PRR (Long Island? Lines West? Something else?) use red/green markers? === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:51:57 -0500 From: "Dr. George Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Little building at Horseshoe Hi, all, I can't claim certain documented knowledge on this but I suspect two possible purposes for this and similar buildings. One was a shelter for trackwalkers. There is a similar building in the Packsaddle Gap a few miles east of Blairsville/Torrence on the Pgh Div. and in the times I visited it in the early 1970's, it appeared to have been a shelter for the fellows who checked this stretch, where rockfalls (even with a slide fence) might cause problems. But why would a trackwalker's shelter be needed at Horseshoe with the Kittaning Point station so clsoe? Maybe the building at Packsaddle gives us a clue to another interpretation. In Alexander's ON THE MAIN LINE there is a wonderful 1890's photo of the building at Packsaddle that I visited years later. I had always wondered why it had been built of logs (reminded me of a full-sized Lincoln log building). The Alexander photo makes it appear that it was a place that trains stopped to let passengers get out and take in the view - there was landscaping, flowers, etc. The log construction presumably added a scenic rustic feel to the place. I'm guessing that when this practice stopped, the buildings were left standing for employees to use, most likely trackwalkers or section crews. Could this be the origins of the building at the Curve?? George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:29:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Service Window Tonight From: "Jerry Britton" The servers of DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM will be subject to periodic unannounced shutdowns this evening between 4:30 p.m. and 10 p.m. EST. This shutdown will affect all mail, list, ftp, dns, and web services, including those hosted by our servers under custom domain names. We will be performing three sequential tasks, all aimed at resolving the duplicating e-mail problem which appears to be related to the software revision of our router. First, we will be increasing the memory of the router machine from 40MB to 72MB. This is a pre-requisite to upgrading the system's operating system. Second, we will be upgrading the computer's operating system from MacOS 8.0 to MacOS 8.6. This is a substantial upgrade and was only postponed due to its memory requirements. Its time has come! This O/S upgrade is a pre-requisite to the router upgrade. Third, we will be installing a patch to our firewall/router software. Hopefully, without the cost of added bandwidth, we will eliminate the duping problem. The router engineers feel that it is a version-version mismatch whereby the router is having trouble communicating via TCP/IP during busy times. We'll see! REMINDER: Do not send me reports of duping messages unless specifically instructed to do so. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:30:20 -0400 Oh yeah? Maybe its the one my Dad saw. He got it on video tape so I will check. Why where they in Altoona? NS rebuilding them or are they a part of the museum? -Josh Trower ---------- From: jpbtrans[SMTP:jpbtrans@gateway.net] Sent: Sunday, September 12, 1999 8:13 PM To: Thomas K. Trower Cc: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active Tom, There were three Septa cars that were in the Altoona area during the convention, one still had "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboard Jon (jpbtrans@gateway.net) Thomas K. Trower wrote: > > Just how many SEPTA MU cars out there still have their PRR markings? Anyone know what numbers? My Dad saw a "Pennsylvania" MU car at Claymont DE in May. > > -Josh Trower > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:50:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Little building at Horseshoe ---"Dr. George Pierson" wrote: > There is a similar building in the Packsaddle Gap a few > miles east of Blairsville/Torrence on the Pgh Div. and in the times I > visited it in the early 1970's, it appeared to have been a shelter for > the fellows who checked this stretch, where rockfalls (even with a slide > fence) might cause problems. I was there about 20 years earlier. At that time, there was a real live trackwalker there, which caused me some alarm, but he didn't say anything so I didn't either. (Of course, it was pure coincidence that I was on the uphill side, across the 4-track main, walking in the ditch so that only my head showed to someone looking across the main, unless I happened to bow my head to better see what I was walking in.) I did notice that every third or fourth pole along the track on the downhill side had a little box attached to it, and looking in the box, found a key for a watchman's time clock. So, it appears that the trackwalker's job was not just to be in the vicinity, but to actually walk the track and clock in at each station to prove that he had done it. So, I speculate that even though the Kittanning Point station was nearby, the PRR of yore would want somebody patrolling right at the curve. That is a rather steep rock cut on the outside of the curve. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:41:49 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Rail Fest / PRR-Talk Dinner Oct 2 Greetings to the group, If there is interest in getting together for dinner during Rail Fest again, I'll make the arrangements at the Altoona (not Duncansville) Hoss's. Since official Rail Fest Activities end at 6:00 PM, I guess the best time would be 6:30 PM. Now Saturdays is one of the two busiest evenings for Hoss's. The PRR T&HS dinner was at 5 PM on a Friday evening (their other busiest evening) and Hoss's was able to put us all together in their banquet room. They have indicated that 5 PM works well for them for groups on Fridays and Saturdays but if the group wants me to try for 6 PM or 6:30 PM on Saturday, October 2nd, I'll ask. I suspect that it should be OK. Let me know what the group's thoughts are. By the way, the Rail Fest URL is http://www.railroadcity.com/railroad/RF99open.htm Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:38:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active If these are the original Budd cars and were just pasing thru Altoona then they are on their way to the Pueblo RR facility to be part of a crush test. Two have been saved and are at Strasburg. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Marker lamp colors Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:49:14 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of robert netzlof Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 10:33 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Marker lamp colors The PRR "Rules for the Government of the Transportation Department" [Book of Rules] in effect May 29, 1910 shows Red and Green marker lenses used. The PRR "Operating Department Rules for Conducting Transportation" [Book of Rules] in effect April 26, 1925 shows Red and Yellow marker lenses used. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:56:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER -- Subscriber "442" From: "Jerry Britton" Last night I made the decision to desubscribe a member of the "PRR-Talk" list known only as "442". His e-mail address was "fyreftr@nbn.net". I normally wouldn't mention this to the list, but it's come to my attention that he directed a rant about me to many members of the list (Subject: "Jerry Strikes Again"). I just want to make sure he conveyed the entire story! As you are all too aware, there is a duping problem on the lists. I have also mentioned that I am working on this tonight. I had politely asked, on numerous occasions, to no longer report the dupes. Mr. "442" sent me dozens of reports about a single duping incident. I guess that was his brand of humor. However, rather than get upset about it, I invested two minutes in desubscribing him, matter-of-factly telling him so (politely), and preventing him from resubscribing (under his current e-mail address). I thank one of the addressees of the rant for bringing this to my attention, and offering his support of the action. I apologize for Mr. "442"'s rant arriving in your mail box. I didn't actually see the rant, so I don't know how marginal or bad it was, nor do I care. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:46:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Etched signs In a message dated 9/2/99 11:22:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Stuthayer@aol.com writes: << Custom Railway Supply is very much alive and well. They are a hobby shop here in Colorado Springs. Should anyone wish to contact them regarding this, here is the address and phone number. Custom Railway Supply 432 W. Fillmore Colorado Springs, CO. 80907 (719) 634-4616 Stuart Thayer >> I wrote to this address and was advised that the "O" scale Tower and Depot signs were sold out and would not be re run - Didn't ask about "HO" Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:09:37 -0400 From: Albert Alecknavage II Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active Greetings to the list. The MU's that were spotted en route thru Altoona are indeed the ex-PRR Pioneer III's; the Pennsy's *original* stainless steel MU's from the Budd Company. They were built in 1958, and served in revenue service on SEPTA until June of 1990. After being considered for rebuilding into locomotive-hauled coaches for push-pull service, SEPTA decided to get rid of them. To clarify, most of the PRR stainless steel MU cars from the 60's continue to serve on SEPTA. They mainly see rush-hour service on weekdays only, supplementing the newer (1974) MU's and the AEM-7-hauled push-pull coach trains (1987). To my knowledge there are no current plans to retire them. SEPTA is toying with the idea of ordering more push-pull coaches from Bombardier; who knows what they plan to pull them with: AEM-7, ALP-44, or (-gasp-) *diesels*? (SEPTA's diesel-phobia is as well-known as it is baffling.) From recent observations, the MU's that continue to show "PENNSYLVANIA" along their letterboards are the 218 & 269. In March of 1996, 269 was breifly adorned with PRR keystone logos on each end of the car. For the longest time, 269 was the sole standard-bearer in the largest fleet of PRR passenger cars in revenue service. However, just last week I saw 218 with the covers atop the letterboards removed and the name of the "P. Company" proudly visible. It just goes to show that some "fallen flags" never quite hit the ground! Albert Alecknavage II KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > > If these are the original Budd cars and were just pasing thru Altoona then > they are on their way to the Pueblo RR facility to be part of a crush test. > Two have been saved and are at Strasburg. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:55:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active In a message dated 99-09-12 22:26:10 EDT, jpbtrans@gateway.net writes: << The number on the septa car with "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboard is 244 We had this thread about a year ago. At the time, I began a program of watching every SEPTA car I saw. (I commute on it daily, so this was easy!) I never saw any cars other than the 244 with PRR markings. I won't bet my house, but I believe it's the only one. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - Report Dupes of THIS message only Date: Mon, 13 Sep 99 19:13:09 -0400 From: Jerry The upgrades have been completed. There is no guarantee that this will fix or help the duping problem. Please report dupes of THIS message to me. THIS message only, not others. Reports based on this message will confirm or deny the upgrades effectiveness. Be sure when replying that you actually did receive dupes. This message is going out through three lists, so check the subject prefix to confirm true duplication. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:42:01 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] former PRR MU cars Hi All... Speaking of former PRR MU cars.... Down near here at the Transportation Museum at Fort Eustis,Va. Is the former U.S.Dept of Transportation car No. T-4 (pretty sure its No. T-4) This is one of the four cars shown in Pennsy Power II that were used for the NEC High Speed tests back in the 1960's which were used to help develope the original metroliners. It looks much like it did back then except it does'nt have its pantograph anymore. Also its false front might be gone now. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:41:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] who has the best RS -3? Greg - In response to your RS-3 message. I'm afraid I must correct some inaccuracies. I have personally put together well over 200 Hobbytown of Boston drives. With the exception of two all were can motors with flywheels which were mounted in the metal shells, not plastic. They are available with three different gear ratios (slow, medium and fast) for the sake of an argument. They are nylon gears. The gears in the truck are brass and the bushings are square non rotating bronze. They are miserable to put together, take approximately 40 hours to break in and quiet down, and when you consider that you can put 4oz. of lead in them, their power seems to be unequaled. Now I don't claim to be an expert on diesels but I will refer you to an article in model railroader magazine. They at one time printed that the Hobbytown of Boston metal shells were the closest to scale being manufactured. Now being an old man I cannot remember who they tested against but as I have atlas and several others they all appear to be smaller. So if you have the time, patience and skill to assemble it, paint it and mount the antennas it's well worth looking at again. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:31:12 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW car kits George and the list, I've only built one BCW B60, so my experiences with it may not be representative. While my sides were also wavy, once I glued them to the floor of the kit (which was also wavy), the sides and floor straightened out. I used Testor's liquid plastic cement, applied with their brush, for major body assembly. I found that holding the freshly glued pieces in correct position for about five minutes resulted in a straight and true carbody. By the way, my experiences with wavy pieces are also true of the Eastern Car Works P70 series; they straighten out easily as well. I find it easier to drill holes for all of the grab irons before I start assembling the floor and sides. It's a little boring this way, but much easier than drilling holes in the completed carbody. Hope this helps, and enjoy the kit. I did. Doug George N Pierson wrote: > Hi, all, > > I recently purchased a couple of Bethlehem Car Works cars - an M70b and the > B60. I noticed that the sides were a bit wavy, fairly common on this kit as > I understand it. Any recommended way to correct his successfully? > > George N. Pierson > e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:04:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] BCW car kits George - I have done casting for over thirty years. Putting your sides in the oven may work with some plastics but urethane is not one of them as there are many types and grades of urethane. the safest way is to place the cured part (at least 2 weeks old) in your hottest tap water. It is not necessary to boil as most household water is between 140 and 180 degrees at least up north here. this will be more than adequate. After heating for a few seconds lay on a flat surface with a light weight (such as a small piece of wood or a book) not too heavy because you don't want to destroy any detail. Hope this helps. If you need any help then email me off list. Can't find George's address If you could forward thanks I think the list is down. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:32:58 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Date of first I1sa twin air pump conversion Don, THANK YOU! THIS IS PRICELESS, AND I'M VERY GRATEFUL FOR YOUR EFFORTS!!! DOUG "Donald E. Harper, Jr." wrote: > I have the engineering drawings in front of me. These are labeled "Pennsylvania > System. Locomotives. Air Brake Piping Arrangement." > > The plan for the one-compressor version was approved on 10-5-22 by mechanical > engineer Kiesel and issued on 10-6-22. There are a number of relatively minor > alterations noted in the open space below the drawings. The last of these is > dated 5-17-29 and says "This tracing has been made obsolete and is superseded by > C-09547." The drawing has "OBSOLETE" stamped in the margin below the > alterations notes. > > The drawings for the two-compressor version were approved 8-23-29 mechanical > engineer Kiesel and were issued 9-10-29. The first note reads "This tracing > supersedes C70824 and D8851 which have been made obsolete on account of redesign > of piping to provide for two air pumps" and is dated 8-23-29. The last reissue > of this drawing was 11-9-45. > > Not all engines were converted. The single-compressor version lasted to the end > of steam. I have right side photos of #4519 at Shamokin dated 12 Aug 1956 and > #4543 at East Altoona dated 16 Aug 1955, both with one compressor. I have left > side photos of #4499 at Renova dated 6 July 1953 and #3703 at Enola dated Nov > 1954 that I am sure are one-compressor engines because the steam supply pipe > does not cross over the top of the boiler. #3703, by the way, also lacks a > feedwater heater, so if one were modeling this engine, there would be an > injector pipe on both sides. > > The only concrete thing you can say about I-1 engines is that they were highly > variable in their appearance. > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551-5926 > 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:29:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Building at Horseshoe Curve As of 1940 val. map it is shown as a W.B. watch box. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:49:58 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: Re: [PRR] Marker lamp colors I believe the big change happened in 1913 when the ICC dictated that white will no longer be used for a clear signal being replaced with green and yellow replacing green as a caution indication. Green remained as an indication on classification lights and flags for running trains "in sections". White classification lights and flags never changed for running as an "Extra". This also covered train order and block signals. Steve Long robert netzlof wrote: > A fellow on eBay is offering a pair of what he calls > marker lamps from a K4s tender. > > They have one red and 2 green lenses. That puzzles > me, as all the PRR references I have seen indicate > that PRR markers used red/yellow combinations. That > in contrast to other lesser railroads, many of which > used red/green combinations. > > I have seen footnotes in PRR rulebooks and/or employe > timetables which indicate that "foreign" equipment > equipped with red/green markers may use them in the > manner prescribed for red/yellow markers while on PRR > tracks, but no suggestion that PRR equipment was ever > so equipped. > > I suppose my question is: Did some part of the PRR > (Long Island? Lines West? Something else?) use > red/green markers? > > === > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:59:20 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Walthers SW1s have finally returned! Hello list, My latest SW1 arrived today, courtesy of Long's Model Railroad Supply. While this one is CNJ, I also was lucky enough to find (in 1998!!!) the PRR-lettered engine. The new release appears to be identical externally to the old release, with the exception of Accumate couplers substituted for the infernal horn hooks. The other difference is internal; instead of the rubber coupling to the rear truck that the original release had, the new version has universal joints front and rear. When I got my PRR SW1 in 1998, I wrote to Walthers, and they still had the free upgrade kits to make the rear truck a universal joint instead of a rubber coupling. The detail parts are pretty easy to appy. One minor gripe; like the original release, the body handrails and uncoupling levers are a pretty stiff wire. Perhaps I'm just too used to soft brass wire. The new release weighs about 12 ounces (I have a primeval postal scale). I have a powerpack with meters; on the pack's pulse power, slipping, the engine draws about 1.25 amp (oddly, more than my twin-motor T1), and starts moving at 1 volt. I have yet to see the latest PRR version; I'll go out on a limb and assume it's similar to mine. Mine is lettered in dulux gold for ES6 5975. Lettering is sparse (as on the prototype), but neatly applied. I believe the PRR version is painted black; outside, in the Texas sun, I have yet to see a hint of green. However, my eyes may be suspect. Anyway, I am pleased with my latest acquisition; now that this run is finally here, I'm glad. I believe Walthers began advertising this run about two years ago, and for whatever reason, the project was horribly delayed. Happy switching! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:06:53 -0400 From: Albert Alecknavage II Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active Greetings to the list. The Budd Pioneer III MU's are numbered 244-248. As these cars are on a one-way trip to the AAR test track in Pueblo, CO., you won't see them anymore. Thus, the current number of MU's showing "PENNSYLVANIA" on their numberboards remains at two...sadly. BTW, regarding icons of predecessor railroads, take a close look at the ends of SEPTA's Silverliner-IV MU's. In most cases, you can see where SEPTA left Penn Central and Reading logos in place below the cab window on the left (opposite engineer's side), but placed thin sheet steel over them. Peel-on adhesive SEPTA logos were affixed above these, but one can easily see how the sheet steel deforms slightly where the old logos are. Albert Alecknavage II PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 99-09-12 22:26:10 EDT, jpbtrans@gateway.net writes: > > << The number on the > septa car with "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboard is 244 > > We had this thread about a year ago. At the time, I began a > program of watching every SEPTA car I saw. (I commute on > it daily, so this was easy!) I never saw any cars other than > the 244 with PRR markings. I won't bet my house, but I believe > it's the only one. > > Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:59:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW car kits In a message dated 9/12/1999 8:04:01 PM Central Daylight Time, george.pierson@trnty.edu writes: << I noticed that the sides were a bit wavy, fairly common on this kit as I understand it. Any recommended way to correct his successfully? >> On closed body flat kits, resin or whatever, I usually stiffen with square styrene channel along lengths and at right angle joints. For floors, I sometimes use brass for low center of gravity weight and to especially get them straight and stiff for operational purposes when the trucks are mounted. Did this with B60, did with Sunshine Models steel REA car with success. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 23:44:32 -0400 From: jpbtrans Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MU's that are still active Greetings, The Budd Pioneer III cars that I saw in Altoona had been run up the hill and then brought back to Altoona later that day. I have pictures! Jon Albert Alecknavage II wrote: > > Greetings to the list. > > The Budd Pioneer III MU's are numbered 244-248. > As these cars are on a one-way trip to the AAR test > track in Pueblo, CO., you won't see them anymore. > Thus, the current number of MU's showing "PENNSYLVANIA" > on their numberboards remains at two...sadly. > BTW, regarding icons of predecessor railroads, take > a close look at the ends of SEPTA's Silverliner-IV MU's. > In most cases, you can see where SEPTA left Penn Central > and Reading logos in place below the cab window on the > left (opposite engineer's side), but placed thin sheet > steel over them. Peel-on adhesive SEPTA logos were > affixed above these, but one can easily see how the > sheet steel deforms slightly where the old logos are. > > Albert Alecknavage II > > > > PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 99-09-12 22:26:10 EDT, jpbtrans@gateway.net writes: > > > > << The number on the > > septa car with "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboard is 244 > > > > We had this thread about a year ago. At the time, I began a > > program of watching every SEPTA car I saw. (I commute on > > it daily, so this was easy!) I never saw any cars other than > > the 244 with PRR markings. I won't bet my house, but I believe > > it's the only one. > > > > Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:15:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 90F82 tender for I1sa in HO In a message dated 9/13/1999 8:54:20 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburnedu writes: << So, what was the road # and locale of said I-1 ? Any idea when it was equipped with the tender? (I am assuming you mean a 90F75, rebuilt with an 82" deck?) >> No numbers given, though I may have another photo showing the loco somewhere, but see page 68 and 69 of Sweetland's book, Pennsy Steam Years, Vol. I. May 12, 1956 at Excelsior, Pa, on the rear helping the Mt. Carmel ore train. Had a train phone antenna on the tender reassigned from an L1. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 00:52:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers SW1s have finally returned! Doug if you get a chance check and see if Walthers has improved the wheels from the original. The original run had a sintered bronze wheel material which like the Atlas S series seems to be a dirt magnet. If you can keep the wheels clean they are great runners but keeping them clean is almost impossible at least the ones that I have. Since no manufacturer makes replacement wheelsets for these I had always hoped that a future run would have a different wheel material. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:12:18 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: [PRR] How to run GPs on a freight train ? Hi everybody! As a European railfan, I developed a great interest in North American railroding over the last ca. 10 years while having frequent traveling throughout North America (no traveling for fun, so I had, alas, little time for real railfanning, but much time for reading). I am happy I found this list, where I hope to find some more information and some answers to questions I have. I found the PRR to be the most interesting railroad in US, even if I never had a chance to see any live Pennsy action and never will have a chance. PRR seems to me the most "Old-World-Style" railroad in North America. I also like the landscape, buildings, etc. of PRR territory, and started to collect some HO models and to lay some track. Since I am modeling German and Swiss prototypes from 1959/60, I decided to go to the same years for PRR (and of course some LV, RDG, CNJ, etc.). So much for my background, and now three questions. They may seem trivial to experienced PRR-fans, but not so easy to answer from this side of the Atlantic. - Is it prototypical, to run a GP7 (no dynamic brake) and a GP9 (with dynamic brake) together on a freight train (as those are the only GPs I own by now), and if yes, would back-to-back or both long-hood-forward be more common? - Is there any kit available for the roof-top antenna on an E7A (Proto 2000 model), or where could I find drawings to model it? From photos and videos, I could not yet deduct the dimensions. - I tried to find good models or kits (HO) of PRR cabin cars as used around 1960. Can somebody tell me a manufacturer? With best regards, Burkhard Sanner ----- Dr. Burkhard Sanner Justus-Liebig-Universitaet Inst. f. Angewandte Geowissenschaften Diezstrasse 15 Giessen, 35390 Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:22:12 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - 2nd Request - Report if THIS dupes From: "Jerry Britton" Last night I made a similar post, asking for reports of dupes of only THAT message. It's been 12 hours and I still have not received ANY reports of dupes. Sounds too good to be true, so let's try it again. If anyone receives a dupe of THIS message, please submit one reply to me. Since this is being distributed on three lists, please take the time to carefully read the subject line to insure you actually have dupes vs. a copy from each list you subscribe to (if you subscribe to more than one!). Traffic has been too light over the past 12 hours to make a determination that progress has been made, but at least things are looking up! Again, thank you for your patience over the past few weeks. By far, the notes of support outweigh the flames I have received. 8-) (Gee, sounds like a United Way commercial or something!) -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] How to run GPs on a freight train ? Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:27:06 -0700 Hello Buckhard and all, >- Is it prototypical, to run a GP7 (no dynamic brake) >and a GP9 (with dynamic brake) together on a freight >train (as those are the only GPs I own by now), and >if yes, would back-to-back or both long-hood-forward >be more common? In later years (like the mid 1960's) multiple make and builder lash-ups were common...but earlier on it was pretty much standard to keep units of the same make together. Even the manufacturers claimed that dissimilar units would not MU together properly. I can't recall if in the 1959-1960 time frame this attitude had changed. It would be probably better to keep the GP-7's and -9's seperate until proved different. Even then, you would probably see multiple strings of identical units. The PRR ran these units long hood forward, and since they usually didn't turn them at the end of their runs, they often would be set up with a long hood at either end...but not always. > >- Is there any kit available for the roof-top antenna >on an E7A (Proto 2000 model), I think Bowser's Cal-Scale does these. > >- I tried to find good models or kits (HO) of PRR >cabin cars as used around 1960. Can somebody >tell me a manufacturer? Again, Bowser does the N5/N5c series of cars, which would be an excellent source. Gloor Craft occasionally does a N6b (the a's was rebuilt into b's in the early 1940's) which is a good wooden and cast metal kit. The N8 is only available as a brass model, or as a kitbash starting with the Mantua/Tyco car. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Building at Horseshoe Curve Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:25:38 -0400 Oscar Solpeno once told me it was used to store tools and other nececessary maintenance equipment. -----Original Message----- From: Larry Reynolds To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 10:25 PM Subject: [PRR] Building at Horseshoe Curve >Can any one tell me the story behind the little block building with the >four hip roof that sits track side near the apex of the curve? I've >built a replica of this building and would like to know what it's >purpose is/was. > >Thanks, Larry > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:25:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Army-Navy Video From: "Jerry Britton" Just want to pass along my impressions of Digital Image Works (http://digitalimageworks.com) new video "Pennsy Army-Navy Game Trains: 1955-1965"... I've only had the chance to watch this video once. More will sink in with subsequent viewings. The video begins with a brief overview of the PRR Army-Navy Game Trains program. It then goes into a year-by-year sectioning of videos. A nice touch is that just after the text on the screen announces the year you are about to see, the score of the game is given! Passenger service buffs will love this video. Every conceivable type of car seems to cruise by... PRR, LIRR, B&O, NYC, etc. The narration calls out many of the car types and names, but many more can be had by the trained eye. The motive power is especially called out. In the first section, I was noting that the forward pantograph of the GG-1's were up as they prepared to depart after the game. I had no sooner noted that when the narrator provided the explanation (you'll need to buy the video for the answer!). Also answered was the Pennsy's solution to turning trains! A negative aspect is that most of the views are from an overpass as the trains approach Greenwich yard. There is little video of the cadets, midshipmen, and fans pouring out of the trains and heading toward the stadium. However, we need to be thankful for what video is available! A lively soundtrack keeps things moving right along and the 1961-1963 sections take a look at "PODUS" -- the train that brought the president of the United States to the games. The 1961 edition was GG-1 powered. Communication cars and the like are pointed out, as is the "Pennsylvania" business car which carried JFK. The 1962 edition features E units and included is an explanation as to why. The 1963 game was delayed a week due to JFK's assassination. Any Philly or passenger buff will want this video. I rate this 2nd out of DWK's library, with their Steam & Electric Years II edging it out. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:28:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Arrivals From: "Jerry Britton" Just noting some new items to arrive... "Pennsy Army-Navy Games: 1955-1965", a video from Digital Image Works. A limited re-run of X-29's in "Merchandise Service" livery from Red Caboose. 1928 body X-29's with dreadnaught ends in Circle Keystone livery from Red Caboose. Advanced Reservations are being filled; more stock available. Thank you! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Rail Fest '99/ PRR-Talk Dinner Oct 2 Hello to all, Now that vacations and summer railfan trips are over, it looks like it is time to do a little organization for the Talkers that are planning to head to Railfest '99 in Altoona on Oct 2nd and 3rd. I've made the assumption that most attendees will be there on Saturday, which has been the case the past couple of years. I'm hoping to arrange for our "Listers' Express" to be the Saturday excursion at 1:05 PM, which provides pretty good lighting for photography and also allows about 3 or 4 hours in the morning and afternoon for touring the shops or the museum, etc. Also, Drew McGhee is arranging for dinner in Hoss's "PRR Room", similar to past years and the recent PRRT&HS weekend, at about 6:30 PM Saturday evening. You can either contact him direct ( drm6@psu.edu ) or answer survey question 6 below. If you are planning to go and would like to be included in any or all of the group activities, please e-mail me DIRECTLY at: chaslett@cse.L-3Com.com with answers to the survey questions below. Railfest questions ------ 1. Which day are you planning to attend? 2. Are you a PRR-Talker or a Conrail-Talker or both? 3. Number in your party. 4. Names of all in your party for ID badges. 5. How many in your party are riding the 1:05 Sat excursion? 6. How many in your party for dinner in the evening at Hoss's? (Family style, we'll be in an area separated from the main dining room, so it's easy to have discussions. Numerous PRR items and photos adorn the walls. Not expensive.) Some URLs of note: The Rail Fest URL is: http://www.railroadcity.com/railroad/RF99open.htm Excellent Railfan maps of the area are at: http://www.trainweb.org/horseshoecurve-nrhs/Guide.htm Carl Haslett, chaslett@cse.L-3Com.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:32:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER - still NO DUPES reported From: "Jerry Britton" I hate to hint at a grin, but I have still not received a single dupe report since server work was completed last evening, around 6:30 p.m. EST. Has anyone received ANY dupes since that timeframe? Are the folks that were receiving dupes chronically now receiving only one copy of each post? Again, if you are on multiple dsop.com lists, be sure to check the subject before you submit a dupe report...it's easy to be fooled! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:48:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Marker Lamp Colors The marker lamp color was a little more complicated than indicated in previous posts on this subject, at least in earlier years. I have attached below to quotes from two Rule books in my possession Perhaps others who have later editions could post the rule from their copies so we may trace the evolution of marker lamp colors. PRR 1889 RULE BOOK Rule 33 Each train, while running shall display two green flags by day and two green lights by night, one on each side of the rear of the train, as markers, to indicate the rear of the train. Rule 34 Each train running after sunset, or when obscured by fog or other cause, must display the headlight in the front and two or more red lights in the rear. PRR 1910 RULE BOOK: Rule 19 (single track) The following signals will be displayed, one each side of every train, as markers, to indicate the end of the train. By day: Green flags. By night: Green lights to the front and side and red lights to the rear, except when the train is clear of the main track, when green lights must be displayed to the front, side and rear. Trains with a cabin car on the rear will, in addition to the above signals, will display on the rear of the train a top light showing red to the rear and green to the front, except when the train is clear of the main track, when the top light will show green to the front and rear. Rule 19a (double track) The following signals will be displayed, one each side of every train, as markers, to indicate the end of the train. By day: Green flags. By night: Green lights to the front and side and red lights to the rear, except when the train is turned out against the current of traffic, when green lights must be displayed to the front and side, a green light on the rear on the side next to the main track on which the current of traffic is in the direction the train is moving, and a red light on the rear on the opposite side. When clear of main track: Green lights to the to the front, side and rear. Trains with a cabin car on the rear will, in addition to the above signals, will display on the rear of the train a top light showing red to the rear and green to the front, except when the train is clear of the main track, when the top light will show green to the front and rear. Trains with a cabin car on the rear will, in addition to the above signals, will display on the rear of the train a top light showing red to the rear and green to the front, except when the train is clear of the main track, when the top light will show green to the front and rear. Rule 19b (three or more tracks) The following signals will be displayed, one each side of every train, as markers, to indicate the end of the train. By day: Green flags. By night: On passenger track with the current of traffic: Green lights to the front and side and red lights to the rear. On freight track with the current of traffic or any track against the current of traffic: Green lights to the front and side, a green light on the rear on the side next to the passenger track on which the current of traffic is in the direction the train is moving, and a red light on the rear on the opposite side. When clear of main track: Green lights to the to the front, side and rear. Trains with a cabin car on the rear will, in addition to the above signals, will display on the rear of the train a top light showing red to the rear and green to the front, except when on any track other than the passenger track with the current of traffic, when the top light will show green to the front and rear. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:26:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Will S-E Subject: [PRR] PC: NEWS FLASH: CSX to keep ex ConRail Es, Exec Train Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:15:09 -0000 From: Garrett Rea Reply-To: penn-central@smellycat.com To: Penn Central Cc: Fred Rea , Quincy Styke , Wayne Frey , Bob Hultman , Mike Maenza Subject: PC: NEWS FLASH: CSX to keep ex ConRail Es, Exec Train Canelled Due to Floyd FYI >From Steve Johnson, Nashville: >Garrett, > >I went down to Kayne Ave. today during lunch to look for this train, >but no luck. Then after work, went back, and talked with Lyle Key, >CSXT's Resident Vice President in Nashville. He told me the train was >sent to Jacksonville, in order to provide emergency shelter for crews, >etc. down there during the hurricane, if necessary. He was at Kayne >Ave. to meet any legislators, etc. who may have not heard that the >train was gone, and showed up expecting it to be there! While he was >waiting, he was working on an article on the Tracy City branch for the >L&NHS' magazine, THE DIXIE LINE. > >Lyle also informed me that CSX is running some kind of charity golf >special from Nashville to Louisville on Oct. 3rd. It's supposed to >carrying country music execs and celebs, etc., and he mentioned David >Letterman was also riding... > >I asked him about the ex-Conrail E-units...He said he had been talking >with CSX's business car manager, and that the units are to be repainted >into CSX blue, gray and yellow, and that they are now looking for spare >parts for these E's...Apparently, the F40s are on a six-month lease, >with an option to renew. > >Sure would like to photograph those F40s... > >Steve Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) How to run GP s on a freight Train? Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:23:07 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEFF08.19DA22E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Burkhard, Short note on HO scale Pennsy cabin cars, you may want to check out = Life-Like's rendition of a N6b. It is cheap, and will allow you to = practice neat things like changing trucks, truck mounting, coupler = mountings, and such.Great way to get started into "kit bashing". Could = even use tissue paper as tar paper. Because of the price, if you really = make a mess, just start over. But get some photos to assist your work. = My motto, "cut, gouge, putty and paint". ouch Good luck=20 Walt ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEFF08.19DA22E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Burkhard,
 
Short note on HO scale Pennsy cabin = cars, you may=20 want to check out Life-Like's rendition of a N6b. It is cheap, and will = allow=20 you to practice neat things like changing trucks, truck mounting, = coupler=20 mountings, and such.Great way to get started into "kit bashing". Could = even use=20 tissue paper as tar paper. Because of the price, if you really make a = mess, just=20 start over. But get some photos to assist your work. My motto, "cut, = gouge,=20 putty and paint". ouch
 
Good luck
Walt
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEFF08.19DA22E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Re: MODEL POWER N6b Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:17:29 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEFF4A.5E883480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Opps list, It has been pointed out that Model Power manufactures the plastic cabin = car, not Life-Like. Proves we all get a little fuzzy in the memory dept. Walt ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEFF4A.5E883480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Opps list,
 
It has been pointed out that Model = Power=20 manufactures the plastic cabin car, not Life-Like. Proves we all get a = little=20 fuzzy in the memory dept.
 
Walt
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEFF4A.5E883480-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:15:27 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] How to run GPs on a freight train ? Thanks to all who replied to my questions. I am amazed about the number of answers, and all helpful. I checked the Bowser website and found the cabin cars, and also the antenna problem is hopefully solved with the CalScale parts (looking in the Walthers noline catalogue, I did find parts for other engines too, and most in stock). Bob Netzlof asked me to say some more about my "Old-World" comment: > Would you care to expand on that? I'm not challenging > the statement, I'm just a bit puzzled. (Perhaps I > would be less puzzled were I better acquainted with > European railways.) > PRR was noted for strong central authority, with > detailed rules and regulations covering every aspect > of operation of the railroad, no matter how small > that aspect. Is that the sort of thing you mean? I am happy to do so. 1) PRR had a very diversified kind of operation, which is typical for the state-owned railways in Europe: - Fast inter-city passenger lines with overhead catenary - Lines linking regional centers - Bucolic branch lines - a dense net serving a state and reaching out of it 2) PRR steam engines are of a more European size (beside J1 and the duplexes), and double-headed if necessary. They also sport a European detail, the Belpaire fire box (popular on the Prussian Railway, later Deutsche Reichsbahn, with e.g. P10 Mikado, G8.2 Consolidation, G12 Decapod). A K4 looks not out of size beside a European Pacific like French 231-types or a German class 01. 3) PRR used large numbers of a few classes to power the trains. Again, this is very similar to the policy of the Prussian Railway (Koeniglich Preussische Eisenbahn), where >1000 units of 0-8-0 G8.0 (later DB class 55), >2500 units of 0-10-0 G10 (later 57) and >3300 units of 4-6-0 P8 (later 38) where built, to be the backbone of steam motive power in Germany well into the 30s, and lasting until ca. 1970! 4) PRR used decapods extensively, otherwise rare in US. Many European railways favored decapods for freight service, as in France and Germany (and after WWII in England). Some of the largest classes of steam engines of the post-30s were decapods, as German classes 42 (>2000), 44 (ca. 2000), 50 (>3000) and 52 (>6000!). After the war, these engines were scattered all over Europe, and even today you can find some operating in Eastern Europe or Turkey. 5) The strict rule books, as Bob Netzlof mentions, and diligent oberservation of that rules are another similarity. Also to mention is the traffic with frequent trains of not to great length, the limited travel distances, and finally the landscape (the only feature I can experience with my own eyes today). Take the road signs and other details from a spot in central Pennsylvania, and you can sell a photograph as being taken in Central Europe... I don´t like to bore you now with mere feelings. They may not be correct at all, as my impression of PRR operation comes from books and videos (Herron and Penn Valley products; I like in particular the video on the ore trains in Shamokin valley). Burkhard Sanner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Trainlining dynamic brakes Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:53:02 -0400 In order to mix EMD models with and without dynamic brake, you had to have all the dynamic brake units in the lead. This is because EMD used what they called "field loop control" I believe early on the Pennsy EMDs even had a second jumper cable for the dynamic brake circuit. When the 27 point jumper became standard, then the field loop wires were incorporated. What this means is that with the dynamic brake units were leading, then the brake circuit would "loop" through the units and when they got to the rearmost dynamic equipped unit, they would just ignore the rearward units which would simply be in idle. The Alcos and FMs on the other hand had what they called "local" control, where every unit was independent from the others. The problem was that the PAs didn't have dynamic brake so in order to MU with FAs with a PA leading, they had to add a dynamic brake trainline wire to the PA so they could control the trailing FAs. Clear? Thought so. BillV. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels To: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] How to run GPs on a freight train ? >Hello Buckhard and all, > >>- Is it prototypical, to run a GP7 (no dynamic brake) >>and a GP9 (with dynamic brake) together on a freight >>train (as those are the only GPs I own by now), and >>if yes, would back-to-back or both long-hood-forward >>be more common? > >In later years (like the mid 1960's) multiple make and builder lash-ups were >common...but earlier on it was pretty much standard to keep units of the >same make together. Even the manufacturers claimed that dissimilar units >would not MU together properly. I can't recall if in the 1959-1960 time >frame this attitude had changed. It would be probably better to keep the >GP-7's and -9's seperate until proved different. Even then, you would >probably see multiple strings of identical units. > >The PRR ran these units long hood forward, and since they usually didn't >turn them at the end of their runs, they often would be set up with a long >hood at either end...but not always. >> >>- Is there any kit available for the roof-top antenna >>on an E7A (Proto 2000 model), > >I think Bowser's Cal-Scale does these. >> >>- I tried to find good models or kits (HO) of PRR >>cabin cars as used around 1960. Can somebody >>tell me a manufacturer? > >Again, Bowser does the N5/N5c series of cars, which would be an excellent >source. Gloor Craft occasionally does a N6b (the a's was rebuilt into b's in >the early 1940's) which is a good wooden and cast metal kit. The N8 is only >available as a brass model, or as a kitbash starting with the Mantua/Tyco >car. > >Bill Daniels >Tucson, AZ > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Trainlining dynamic brakes Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:05:19 -0400 Bill Volkmer wrote: >In order to mix EMD models with and without dynamic brake, you had to have >all the dynamic brake units in the lead. This is because EMD used what they >called "field loop control" I believe early on the Pennsy EMDs even had a >second jumper cable for the dynamic brake circuit. When the 27 point jumper >became standard, then the field loop wires were incorporated. > >What this means is that with the dynamic brake units were leading, then the >brake circuit would "loop" through the units and when they got to the >rearmost dynamic equipped unit, they would just ignore the rearward units >which would simply be in idle. Bill, As soon as I get home tonight, I'm going to move my non-dynamic brake GP7's to the rear of their lash-ups. I could never understand why I had such a difficult time controlling train speed down The Curve! Now I know. Seriously, its a pleasure having PRR employees like yourself on the list. Thanks. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Trainlining dynamic brakes Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:02:52 -0400 My pleasure. Don't want to see ANY runaway freight trains in HO. BTW, I will be making my first visit to the curve and Juniata shops in 35 years this coming weekend, barring a visit from Floyd there first, of course. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: jbreon To: Bill Volkmer ; Bill Daniels ; PRR-Talk Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Trainlining dynamic brakes >Bill Volkmer wrote: > > >>In order to mix EMD models with and without dynamic brake, you had to have >>all the dynamic brake units in the lead. This is because EMD used what >they >>called "field loop control" I believe early on the Pennsy EMDs even had a >>second jumper cable for the dynamic brake circuit. When the 27 point >jumper >>became standard, then the field loop wires were incorporated. >> >>What this means is that with the dynamic brake units were leading, then the >>brake circuit would "loop" through the units and when they got to the >>rearmost dynamic equipped unit, they would just ignore the rearward units >>which would simply be in idle. > >Bill, > As soon as I get home tonight, I'm going to move my non-dynamic brake >GP7's to the rear of their lash-ups. I could never understand why I had such >a difficult time controlling train speed down The Curve! Now I know. > Seriously, its a pleasure having PRR employees like yourself on the >list. Thanks. >Jerry Breon > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:31:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] High Line question Does anybody know if the high line had guard rails during the PRR tenure. I know it does now as i personally checked it a couple of years ago but am modeling 30th St. @ one end. I would assume being a bridge it would have called for them. Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:34:34 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Re: Cyber Division Hello Jerry and the list, I'm also voting for the new name! Doug, PRRT&HS 4932 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:32:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] (no subject) Hi List - Somebody once asked me "Why do you model Pennsy?" I immediately said because "I can run under wire! Run fantastic steam engines and some great looking diesels." Then I stopped "What really did get me started modeling Pennsy?" I didn't live there and as a child during W.W.II I vaguely remember the red cars. This was a puzzlement. After reflecting for a few minutes the answer became abundantly clear. It was the people, modelers, historians and ex-employees could all meld together and enjoy not only the railroad but the hobby of model railroading. To all of you out there who have been so kind during my recent illness a very sincere thanks. Your good wishes your useful information and general support were greatly appreciated. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:07:18 -0400 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Marker lamp colors Alan Buchan wrote: > The PRR "Rules for the Government of the Transportation Department" [Book of > Rules] in effect May 29, 1910 shows Red and Green marker lenses used. > > The PRR "Operating Department Rules for Conducting Transportation" [Book of > Rules] in effect April 26, 1925 shows Red and Yellow marker lenses used. Greetings to Al and the list,My copy of the above-mentioned 1910 PRR Book of Rules has pasted inside the cover the following general order: "PHILADELPHIA TERMINAL DIVISION Philadelphia, June 21, 1917 GENERAL ORDER No. 526 EFFECTIVE THURSDAY, JUNE 28, 1917, at 7.00 P. M., CHANGES WILL BE MADE IN COLOR SIGNALS AND BOOK OF RULES AS FOLLOWS: RULE 10. Paragraph (b) Green changed to Yellow as specified in the following paragraphs. Paragraph (c) White changed to Green as specified in the following paragraphs. When not so specified in the following paragraphs the colors White and Green will continue in use as prescribed by the Rules. RULES 19, 19a, 19b and portions of diagrams in connection therewith illustrating the display of markers. Green changed to Yellow. BLOCK SIGNALS AND INTERLOCKING SIGNALS AND HAND SIGNALS IN CONNECTION THEREWITH. White changed to Green. Green changed to Yellow. Color use in position light signals will not be changed. SWITCH LAMPS: Green Lights, Green Banners and Green Discs changed to Yellow. White lights changed to Green. DISTANT SWITCH SIGNALS: White Lights changed to Green. Green Lights changed to Yellow. SLOW BOARDS: Green Boards changed to Yellow. Green Lights changed to Yellow. CROSSING GATES: Where a light is displayed to an approaching train. Green Lights changed to Yellow. TRACK TANKS: Green Lights, Green Banners and Green Discs changed to Yellow. Rules and Time-table Special Instructions affected by these changes are modified in accordance therewith." So, at least for the Philadelphia Terminal Division, we have the exact date and time of the change from Red and Green marker lenses to Red and Yellow. Now the question is, did the entire PRR system change at the same time, or was each division different? Does anyone have an employee timetable for another division from around 1917 that shows this change? Bob Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:43:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Marker lamp colors REMEMBER WHEN TALKING "COLORS" in marker lamps etc. that the older ones were designed for illumination by a kerosene lamps. The color of the glass was NOT what was shown - I have switch lamps with "glass" that is BLUE (shows as green with a yellow flame) PURPLE (shows as red) deep ORANGE (shows as Yellow) Not all of these were "Pennsy" markers - so I'm not making any statement about PRR practices and I'm not sure how you'd make a white light with a yellow flame - perhaps that's why white was discontinued Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Army-Navy Video Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 06:28:00 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 1:26 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Army-Navy Video Jerry stated> A lively soundtrack keeps things moving right along and the 1961-1963 sections take a look at "PODUS" -- the train that brought the president of the United States to the games. ---------------------------------------- Actually the correct term is POTUS - President of THE United States. Not PODUS - President of DE United States. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:04:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Mountain View" From: "Jerry Britton" Got a spare quarter million? The new issue of "The Keystone" (got mine yesterday) contains a classified ad for one of the two observation cars from the Broadway Limited. Price? A cool $250,000! Ad states it is Amtrak compatible. Does that mean certified? Would be something to own, but I think about $100,000 of the price is for its history and uniqueness. An operating car of its size and capacity normally would go for around $100,000-150,000, based on web sites that sell such cars. Now, if every "PRR-Talk" subscriber kicked in $715... --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 06:11:37 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Marker lamp colors Dick, I understand the change from clear to green was due to the fact that a clear lens was not "fail safe". The clear lens was used to signify a "clear board", or proceed. However, if a colored lens broke or fell out of its holder, the signal was mistaken to mean proceed, sometimes with disasterous results. With all colored signals, a clear signal warned the crew the signal was not correct. Doug VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > REMEMBER WHEN TALKING "COLORS" in marker lamps etc. that the older ones > were designed for illumination by a kerosene lamps. > The color of the glass was NOT what was shown - I have switch lamps with > "glass" that is BLUE (shows as green with a yellow flame) PURPLE (shows as > red) deep ORANGE (shows as Yellow) > Not all of these were "Pennsy" markers - so I'm not making any statement > about PRR practices and I'm not sure how you'd make a white light with a > yellow flame - perhaps that's why white was discontinued > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:02:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] late 50's passenger question In the late 50's my grandparents used to take the train to California to visit their daughter. They would travel from Philadelphia to Chicago on the PRR. I remember that a night or two before they would leave there was some advantage to take the train from North Philly to Paoli and return the same night about an hour later. Why? Was there a price break or reservation advantage to do this? What was the reasoning behind this? Anybody know? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Marker lamp colors Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:06:34 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of VVA249@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 10:43 PM To: rjohnson@capslock.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Marker lamp colors Regarding Dick Ross' post below on switch lamp colors for lenses - not necessarily PRR. This is very interesting because as late as 1965 we were still using kerosene lamps in Wheatland Yard (PRR E&P Branch). When I was Track Supervisor there at that time we assigned a trackman to refill the switchlamps, I believe once a week. I don't recall the yard lenses being other than green and yellow. We also had a switch lamp with purple and yellow lenses on the pipe connect derail on the east end of the hand operated switch to the Sharon Secondary. Purple was the color for derail set, yellow for the derail not set. Also, as I posted a month ago (or so) the only lenses specified in CE78-J for switch lamps were green, yellow, red and purple (for kerosene lamp use). Also lantern globes came in clear, green, yellow, red and blue (for Rule 26) and they were kerosene operated. Al ================================== REMEMBER WHEN TALKING "COLORS" in marker lamps etc. that the older ones were designed for illumination by a kerosene lamps. The color of the glass was NOT what was shown - I have switch lamps with "glass" that is BLUE (shows as green with a yellow flame) PURPLE (shows as red) deep ORANGE (shows as Yellow) Not all of these were "Pennsy" markers - so I'm not making any statement about PRR practices and I'm not sure how you'd make a white light with a yellow flame - perhaps that's why white was discontinued Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:16:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] late 50's passenger question From: "Jerry Britton" >From: NDBPRR@aol.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] late 50's passenger question >Date: Thu, Sep 16, 1999, 12:02 PM > > In the late 50's my grandparents used to take the train to California to > visit their daughter. They would travel from Philadelphia to Chicago on the > PRR. I remember that a night or two before they would leave there was some > advantage to take the train from North Philly to Paoli and return the same > night about an hour later. Why? Was there a price break or reservation > advantage to do this? What was the reasoning behind this? Anybody know? Hmmmm. Assuming that it wasn't a case of "friskiness" and you just bought their story, I'd bet that a connecting ticket price may have been less expensive than the Philly originating ticket was. They would likely have bought their North Philly-Paoli ticket outright, as a local, but then bought a Paoli-North Pilly/Philly-Chicago ticket as a "connection". This is just conjecture, but it seems plausible. Interesting to say the least! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:22:40 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] late 50's passenger question ---NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > In the late 50's my grandparents used to take the train to California to > visit their daughter. They would travel from Philadelphia to Chicago on the > PRR. I remember that a night or two before they would leave there was some > advantage to take the train from North Philly to Paoli and return the same > night about an hour later. Why? Was there a price break or reservation > advantage to do this? What was the reasoning behind this? Anybody know? > All this is speculation, and an invitation to comment on whether or not each speculation is in accord with known practices of the period. As I read the letter, grandparents went to Paoli and came back an hour later one or two days before the real trip to the Left Coast. I wonder how far ahead of time they had planned the main trip? Perhaps they had not planned far ahead, and had found that reservations were more likely to be available "at the last minute" at Paoli than at Philadelphia; but that to get them, you had to buy the ticket(s) at Paoli. I'm assuming here that the railroad allocated some number of seats/berths/roomettes/whatever to Philadelphia, some number to Paoli, and that when one station's allotment was sold, that was that for that train at that station. Perhaps there was quirk in the fare structure, such that the difference between the Paoli to Azusa and return fare and the Philadelphia to Azusa and return fare was much greater than the cost of two round trips between Philadelphia and Paoli. That is, for example (I have no idea what it would really have cost: Phila/Azusa & return $350 Paoli/Azusa & return $330 difference $20 Phila/Paoli & return $5 to get the tickets Phila/Paoli & return $5 for the "real" trip total $10 net saving $10 As a variation on that theme, perhaps there was a reduced fare commuter ticket between Paoli and Philadelphia, while the cost of the "real" ticket, including the Paoli - Philadelphia piece, was figured at a higher rate. Hm. Wouldn't fares have to include some amount for terminal costs? Perhaps in setting prices for tickets, the folks in the cost department added an amount, based on the terminals used for that trip. Perhaps the "quirk" was simply a reflection of a higher terminal cost for the urban station, contrasted to the suburban station. A further variation: Was it not true that Pullman passengers paid two fares, one to the railroad, the other to Pullman? If so, perhaps by buying their transportation at Paoli they got a lower price from Pullman. Of course, they then would have to begin the "real" trip in a coach, using a railroad ticket, not claiming their Pullman seats until Paoli. But they would save the cost of paying Mr. Pullman for their sitting in a Pullman seat from Philadelphia to Paoli. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:30:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] late 50's passenger question >From a former Supervisor of Ticketing (at Philly, no less!): A very thorough and well-explained post from Sweet Old Bob!! His evaluations of the various cost/space availability issues shows that he's been around. But in those days, almost all fare calculations were done by straight mileage, so it would seem that any cost savings available by boarding at Paoli rather than North Phila would have been erased by the cost of going from North Phila to Paoli to buy the tickets. They possibly could have saved a small amount, but if that were a serious issue, they would probably not be going to California at all. I am thinking of two other possibilities. First, they may have wanted to check baggage out of Paoli, for some reason. (Back then, if you wanted your bags to be there when you got there, the wise procedure was to check them a day or two ahead of time). I could envision them having had a bad experience (such as a misrouting, theft, or loss) with baggage at North Phila once, and refusing to use that baggage room again. Another possibility was that they didn't like the personnel at North Phila. Oldtimers, now long-retired or dead, used to tell me that the ticket office gang at North Phila was busier, and under more pressure, than the other city stations were. They could easily have experienced brusqueness, abruptness, or an insistence on following every tariff rule to the letter. Or they could have had a friend who sold tickets at Paoli, and they liked to see him get the commission. (Many Western/Southern roads paid commissions to PRR agents in return for routing passengers on their road. Competition made life interesting!!) Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS What's your Complaint ! Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:36:00 -0400 (EDT) boxcar46 scribit: > So if your not hiding behind someone else's dues....List your > PRRT&HS membership number with your name when you close your message. Bill, I agree with 95% of what you're writing. But not the above point. _Requiring_ the above of people is no different than the various "evidence of sufficient patriotism" tests that people were subjected to in the USSR and China. No thanks. Further, I fear a "I have a lower number than you so therefore blah-blah-blah" mentality. Voluntary, sure. Mandatory, no. Making people feel it's mandatory, also no. -- Mark D. Bej #ForgotMyNumberButItIsSomeHighNumberBecauseIWasNotSmartEnoughToJoinIn #NineteenSeventySevenLineMyEnArAitchEsMembershipWhichWillSoonBeTwenty #FiveYearsAndBesidesICanNeverRememberMyPeeArArTeeAndAitchEsNumberCause #ICanNotCountThatHighOnMyFingersAndToes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:06:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] late 50's passenger question But in those days, almost all fare calculations were done by straight mileage, so it would seem that any cost savings available by boarding at Paoli rather than North Phila would have been erased by the cost of going from North Phila to Paoli to buy the tickets. They possibly could have saved a small amount, but if that were a serious issue, they would probably not be going to California at all. My grandparents were not wealthy people and traveled by coach so vaguely I recall there being some cost reason. I am thinking of two other possibilities. First, they may have wanted to check baggage out of Paoli, for some reason. Another possibility was that they didn't like the personnel at North Phila. No, I can remember that a helpful clerk suggested it and as I originally posted I thought there was a pricing reason but it doesn't make sense that by coming east before going west you get more miles for less $$. I can also remember helping to carry their suitcases that would have survived a nucleur explosion they were so heavy the night the would leave for the west coast so I know they didn't take luggage to Paoli. I even rode with them a couple of times. Or they could have had a friend who sold tickets at Paoli, and they liked to see him get the commission. No to that thought but all ideas appreciated. My Great grandfather worked on an A3 in Phildelphia however. I have a picture of him and the engine along with his obituary when he was crushed between two cars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:54:05 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] late 50's passenger question > No, I can remember that a helpful clerk suggested it and as I originally > posted I thought there was a pricing reason but it doesn't make sense that by > coming east before going west you get more miles for less $$. I can also > remember helping to carry their suitcases that would have survived a nucleur > explosion they were so heavy the night the would leave for the west coast so > I know they didn't take luggage to Paoli. I even rode with them a couple of > times. > This sure has been a lively thread. For what it's worth, perhaps, it was a lower fare because it was the continuation of a journey or some sort of excursion fare that was in effect at a particular time of the year. After all, some Philadelphians still think they need a visa to travel outside the corporate limits of the city to anywhere other than the shore. Did you ever pull the stunt where you were flying a loop and there was a lower rate if you book a leg round trip rather than one-way and then fly one way? Another possibility would be so many miles in so many days for a reduced rate and Paoli gave them the miles. Oh for a fare book! Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH and LaSalle College (now University) Class of '68 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:28:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: I-1sa (again) Hi all Can anyone out there provide information on the size of the I-1 engine springs and the brake shoes, or which company makes the best HO scale model of these. Thanks Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:53:03 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] late 50's passenger question In 1954, our family went to California from Philly and did the same thing. Being 8 at the time, I couldn't tell you why, but I'll check with some of my older family members to see if they know. I know we road coach from N. Philly to Chicago leaving on a Saturday evening. The weekend before, I think, we road N. Philly to Paoli and back. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 16:34:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] List Four closing PRR-Talkers: Just a quick note to remind all that we will close the email auction of a portion of Jack Fravert's hardware collection next Wednesday Sept 22 at 8 pm. For Pennsylvanic enthusiasts, this includes a Lima M-1b builders plate and an Altoona J-1 builders plate. Plus the next list we issue will have a K4 keystone and a T1 keystone. I'll be happy to email list and bidding instructions to anyone, but time is growing short for this present grouping. Email me ASAP if you're interested, or if a friend is. Rick Tipton Business manager, the Jack Fravert collection ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 01:29:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] late 50's passenger question In a message dated 99-09-17 11:01:18 EDT, tmahon@cfnh.com writes: some Philadelphians still think they need a visa to travel outside the corporate limits of the city to anywhere other than the shore. <> <> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:59:03 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: New books coming soon on PRR --------------2477299BB14775F6E70AED48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen (& Ladies): I know it probably strains protocol to post in multiple like this, but I wanted to pass this on to everyone (and I'm being a bit lazy, I guess). Save your pennies; there's some good stuff coming in the next year from Indiana University Press. First, a new volume entitled The Pennsylvania Railroad in Indiana by Bill Watt. I am told this is an omnibus history of the railroad in the state, as it's title implys, and by a gentleman who once, I believe, was involved in state government. Next is A Sampling of Penn Central by Jerry Taylor. I was told that Mr. Taylor was a former railroad manager, and that this is his tribute to the road leading up to Conrail. And last (ahem), I am pleased to announce that--barring any unforeseen disasters (like the failure of these first two books)--my ten years of research and writing should culminate in an actual book sometime next fall. Currently titled: The Pennsylvania Railroad at Bay: William Riley McKeen and the Terre Haute & Indianapolis Railroad, it is one part history of the Vandalia Line system from 1848-1905, and one part business biography of the Terre Haute banker who owned and controlled the line before finally selling it to the PRR. If I get my act together and finish up all that needs to be done by year's end, I am told the book should be available for release in the fall of 2000. Which brings me to this general call for help. While this entire process has been both rewarding and maddening at times, it has mainly been a learning experience (which I will gladly share with anyone who wants to know about it). This is where those among you who have gone through the same thing are now smiling. Anyway, the biggest revelation for me came only in the past 6-9 months when I discovered that the author is the one solely responsible for illustrating the volume. Now, if you already have a vast collection of photographic material which is free to be published, you are set. But if you're like me--mainly a researcher and writer without the photographic impulse--you are in trouble. And believe me, I am under the gun now. So, if anyone out there knows of a cache of pictures--real photographs, not scanned stuff from books--which would be suitable for a nineteenth century history of the Van, please get in touch quick. At present, I have been able to unearth small quantities of good "sounding" material by calling and talking to literally every small public library, museum and historical society between st. Louis and Indianapolis, and north from Terre Haute to South Bend and Peoria (I have also talked to quite a few delightful old ladies over the past two days, referred to me as the local grande dames of their respective historical and genealogical societies). I say good sounding because, until I see it in person I won't know for sure. Having made the survey of "what's out there" over the past several days, I am now ready to schedule a series of trips to view the material and arrange for copying and permission to publish--hopefully next week. Incidentally, for your own revelation, the IUPress is specifically adamant about not using digital images, whether scanned or otherwise. It seems that the technology, however good for everyday use, is not good enough to reproduce well in a published book. (And please don't e-mail me to refute this; I have to live with whatever my publisher requires.) I realize that posting this request is a long shot, but so is calling the Greenup, Illinois Public Library. It results in some fortuitous discoveries every so often. And, in any event, I thought it might be interesting for some of you to be spectators in the ongoing personal drama of this book-berthing process; if you are so inclined let me know and I'll keep you posted (oops, a pun, I suppose). Thanks in advance. Richard Wallis Wheaton, Ill. --------------2477299BB14775F6E70AED48 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen (& Ladies):

I know it probably strains protocol to post in multiple like this, but I wanted to pass this on to everyone (and I'm being a bit lazy, I guess).

Save your pennies; there's some good stuff coming in the next year from Indiana University Press.  First, a new volume entitled The Pennsylvania Railroad in Indiana by Bill Watt. I am told this is an omnibus history of the railroad in the state, as it's title implys, and by a gentleman who once, I believe, was involved in state government.

Next is A Sampling of Penn Central by Jerry Taylor.  I was told that Mr. Taylor was a former railroad manager, and that this is his tribute to the road leading up to Conrail.

And last (ahem), I am pleased to announce that--barring any unforeseen disasters (like the failure of these first two books)--my ten years of research and writing should culminate in an actual book sometime next fall.  Currently titled: The Pennsylvania Railroad at Bay: William Riley McKeen and the Terre Haute & Indianapolis Railroad, it is one part history of the Vandalia Line system from 1848-1905, and one part business biography of the Terre Haute banker who owned and controlled the line before finally selling it to the PRR.  If I get my act together and finish up all that needs to be done by year's end, I am told the book should be available for release in the fall of 2000.

Which brings me to this general call for help.  While this entire process has been both rewarding and maddening at times, it has mainly been a learning experience (which I will gladly share with anyone who wants to know about it).  This is where those among you who have gone through the same thing are now smiling.  Anyway, the biggest revelation for me came only in the past 6-9 months when I discovered that the author is the one solely responsible for illustrating the volume.  Now, if you already have a vast collection of photographic material which is free to be published, you are set.  But if you're like me--mainly a researcher and writer without the photographic impulse--you are in trouble.  And believe me, I am under the gun now.

So, if anyone out there knows of a cache of pictures--real photographs, not scanned stuff from books--which would be suitable for a nineteenth century history of the Van, please get in touch quick.  At present, I have been able to unearth small quantities of good "sounding" material by calling and talking to literally every small public library, museum and historical society between st. Louis and Indianapolis, and north from Terre Haute to South Bend and Peoria (I have also talked to quite a few delightful old ladies over the past two days, referred to me as the local grande dames of their respective historical and genealogical societies).  I say good sounding because, until I see it in person I won't know for sure.  Having made the survey of "what's out there" over the past several days, I am now ready to schedule a series of trips to view the material and arrange for copying and permission to publish--hopefully next week.

Incidentally, for your own revelation, the IUPress is specifically adamant about not using digital images, whether scanned or otherwise.  It seems that the technology, however good for everyday use, is not good enough to reproduce well in a published book.  (And please don't e-mail me to refute this; I have to live with whatever my publisher requires.)

I realize that posting this request is a long shot, but so is calling the Greenup, Illinois Public Library.  It results in some fortuitous discoveries every so often.  And, in any event, I thought it might be interesting for some of you to be spectators in the ongoing personal drama of this book-berthing process; if you are so inclined let me know and I'll keep you posted (oops, a pun, I suppose).

Thanks in advance.

Richard Wallis
Wheaton, Ill. --------------2477299BB14775F6E70AED48-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:47:42 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Value of an archive RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > . As a rail historian and as a > professional database wonk both, I believe Tom has shot us through the heart > (and I quote him): > > "AN UNCATALOGED ARCHIVE IS USELESS TO A RESEARCHER" > Hey, I'd like to say amen to this. Both Rick and Tom (on 9/10) have touched a nerve for me. The fact that the Society reputedly owns, what thousands (?) of glass plate negatives taken along Lines West has always intrigued me. Since I am absolutely desperate for 19th Century photos of the Vandalia line at the moment (see my other post), I am greatly disappointed that they have not been archived yet and thus are unavailable to even see, much less use. But unfortunately, the job of putting our growing collection of material into the proper condition for usage is a daunting task. And let me tell you, to pay for this work, a lot of archives charge mightily for the privilege of using their facilities. The justly famous St. Louis Mercantile Library (home to the John Barriger collection) not only charges for duplication and usage of their photographic material, they also tack on a hefty per-hour fee for researching your request and handling the job. Ditto for a more modest archive like the Northern Indiana Center for History in South Bend. One photograph for publication from the Ohio State Historical Society archives in Columbus would come to about $59 in fees--that's one photo. Now imagine needing 40, or 75 or over a hundred at that price. cost of an archive properly administered is a real issue. Are we up to facing it? I am supremely proud of the PRRT&HS: what it is, what it stands for in the way of quality, and what it has accomplished. Believe me, I have been a member of other purely volunteer organizations and I know well their limitations. We should thank God that we have a facility to store this stuff with safety--a definite necessity that a lot of groups lack. The Keystone, it goes without saying, is a gem, and I cannot say enough good things about Chuck Blardone's good stewardship of this world-class journal. The society leadership has a daunting task in administrating this sizeable organization, and for the most part, have done an exceptionally good job of preserving our integrity as a historical group. (And here I must say that, while I appreciate the modeling contingent greatly--the hope of the PRR's future--I think that the society's focus on the historical is what will give you the accurate resources for reference you will need so much in the years ahead. Except for new release reviews, specific modeling-oriented articles will have much less value when you are looking back.) Yes, it is a real disappointment that we cannot yet fully utilize all the resources the PRRT&HS could offer, but the key word is "yet." Lewistown may not be ready, but I have high hopes. It is true that we were led to believe that the hiring of a full-time paid archivist would expedite things, and then... what happened? I don't think we the rank and file have been kept fully and properly informed on some of these "political" issues. However, there is simply too much at stake to turn our backs on the Society--and I mean too much good history, too much in the way of resources, and too many good people. In the end, it is this last element which I believe is most important. If the PRRT&HS is ever to fulfill its potential, it's going to take all of us working together with some genuine give and take. Hey, we all share one common bond: love of the railroad. Let's keep returning to that. Peace, Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:17:46 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Value of an archive Rick and all, I received my copy of the Keystone yesterday, and noted that on page 18, with the completion of the Lewistown station, there is a request for volunteers to help catalog the archives contained therein. Volunteers anyone? Doug RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > Gize, > I've held off commenting on Tom Vondruska's 9/10/99 posting because I wanted > to give it some leisurely thought. He said something that I agree with very > strongly, and it's far from inevitable that two guys would think alike just > because we both like PRR Lines West in Greene County Ohio. > > On reflection, I ask each of you to read the following excerpt from his > posting again. He raises a dead-serious point, and I think it's the most > important criticism of PRRT&HS ever made on PRR-Talk. I think Tom is right > when he tells us PRRT&H'ers that archiving is useless without indexing, and > that we are setting ourselves up to fail in our mission of preserving the > history of the PRR. Maybe this is a little clearer to me because I'm > involved in the same issues with some (much smaller) collections concerning > the Louisville & Nashville Railroad. As a rail historian and as a > professional database wonk both, I believe Tom has shot us through the heart > (and I quote him): > > "AN UNCATALOGED ARCHIVE IS USELESS TO A RESEARCHER" > > I began to understand this starting at the Annual Meeting of the Society. > There I was reminded that, in the budget, archiving (both the building and > the activity) is the Society's second-largest expenditure (after the Keystone > and other publications). Then I heard reports on "archiving" -- these items > are kept here -- those items are being counted over there -- other items are > being analyzed by a third team/site. All that is fine, but what I didn't > hear -- and did not get to ask questions about -- was where was the > computerized, indexed database that will pull all this together, and allow > search (online?) of these hard-won (and expensively preserved, I guarantee) > assets. Sure I'm asking a lot, but at least I believe I know what to ask > for, and I feel fairly sure we don't have it. > > One of the key issues here is seeing what we have, simply inventorying our > holdings. Another is enabling a researcher -- or an ordinary member -- to > really use the contents of these holdings. Without computer access to a > heavily indexed database, we will remain dependent for information on a > select priesthood who "knows" where the knowledge is buried in our archives. > Finding anything will continue to be a slow, manual process. And as each of > these priests gets his Last Orders, we could progressively lose constructive > use of the archives. > > A final issue is that the archiving job is big. This problem has its > positive side -- some of the early members of PRRT&HS managed to save an > incredible amount of information on the equipment, physical plant, > operations, and management of the PRR, and they've placed it the Society's > archives. We owe them a vote of thanks for the riches we've been handed. > Computer-oriented or not, I don't know a member of PRRT&HS who doesn't have a > healthy respect for just how large the initial job of inventorying our > archives is going to be. > > As a first step, I guess I should ask if anyone else comes to the same > conclusion besides Tom and me? Also, who sees this as a critical issue of > PRRT&HS organizational performance, versus just one of many quibbles? > Finally, what can we do about it without getting handed our heads, which the > Society is perfectly capable of doing if it so chooses? > > Help me out here -- and read Tom below > > Thanks, > Rick Tipton > > In a message dated 9/10/99 1:49:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > LINESWEST@aol.com (Tom Vondruska) writes: > > << If you notice I didn't mention Lewistown or Lewiston, there's a reason > for it. An uncatalogued archive is useless to a researcher. When it is > catalogued I'll consider it a resource. I'd feel a whole lot better If > someone could assure. me that the society has at least two PCs in Lewiston, > and at least one with a flat bed and a negative scanner attached and an > effective archiving and retrieval program. That way I would be assured that > the cataloguing project would not have to be duplicated to make it > digitally accessable.I've been modeling 12 years and an active member of > PRR-talk now for three. I've heard it said a lot of times that the records > are being catalogued but I've heard few details of how it's being done, > what's being added to the data base and how we can support it and enhance > it. >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] Archieves Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:05:44 -0700 The fact that the PRRH&TS has an archieve and some of it, car plans, is accessable by members is great. I have belonged to other societies and all of the good stuff is in the hands of private individuals. These individuals have for the most part refused to share. One of the reasons I model the PRR is that I am an avid model builder and like to hae actual drawing to work from. Trying to find SP car drawings is impossible through their society. Improving the PRR archieves to include a searchable daabase would be wonderful. Finding the people witht he time and skill to correctly catalog the information is the real challenge. Gene Deimling Los Gatos, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:33:42 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Differentiating between the many variants of the 70P70 Hello list, I've been through the PRR-talk archives on this one, and I'm still confused. The basic 70P70 series tender that nearly all K4s engines began their lives with seems to have an innumerable range of variations. Can anyone give me some pointers (visual) on how to differentiate between them. There seem to be minute differences between coal collars and rivet patterns that distinguish the subclasses, and I'm just lost. Roger Keyser had an article in the Keystone on the 70F70 series tenders if memory serves; is there a similar article on the 70P70 series for me to peruse? Or am I just misreading the archives? Thanks in advance for helping me backdate my 110P75a-oriented brain (believing firmly that the K4s fleet became truly interesting once stoker-fired)! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:43:15 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] More tender questions Hello list, I have more tender questions, this time regarding smaller passenger power; once again, I'm either not looking in the right place in our archives, or the information may not be there at all. I saw on Rail Classics' web site that one of their E6s models will have a 70P66 series tender that was originally a 55P66 series tender, with rivet patterns to mark the stretch. Were there a lot of these conversions? Aside from keeping the shop forces busy stretching tenders and underframes, did this make economic sense? Wouldn't it have been more productive for the shops to build new, larger tenders and use the cascade effect to upgrade the fleet (like the 130F82 purchase for I1s engines that released 90F82s to be converted to 90P70s for K4s use)? When were these conversions done? Also, for my future E5s conversion, I'd like to use MDC's 70P70 tender behind it; I'm modelling 1948-52 (with the last E5s engines retiring in 1949), and I think I can do this, instead of the original 5500 gallon series tenders. If I'm wrong (and I convince myself that the accuracy obtained is worth the effort) and I have to go with a 5500 gallon series tender, has anyone kitbashed one from an MDC 70P70? I may need two of these, as I'm also planning a D16sb kitbash for the distant future, using an MDC mogul chassis as the starting point. Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:44:11 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Mantua ersatz E6s Hello list, I was surfing the web, and found that Trainworld (www.trainworldny.com) has a special on the Mantua Collectibles steam engines. Mantua 3008, the "Lindbergh Atlantic" is on sale for $89.99, vice a list of $195. Being a sucker for ready to run PRR steam (albeit, in this case, closer to an E3sa or E7s than the E6s), I ordered one. The other Mantua Collectibles are also on sale (mostly B&O Pacifics, for those of you, like me, who also have an interest in B&O steam power) for about the same prices. Meanwhile, construction of a proper E6s continues; my 70P66 kitbash is complete, while on the engine, all the holes have been drilled, with only running board work remaining before I can add the air piping and finish her. Once my "real" E6s is done, my stand in will go to visit with my Grandfather (who, unlike myself, is simply content to enjoy trains without worrying about prototype qualities as I do. The fact that he models CNJ and has to accept compromises on a regular basis may have something to do with it). Anyway, enjoy! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:49:13 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Slight lessening of 70P70 series tender confusion Hello list, I visited Rob's PRR site to try and clear up my 70P70 series tender confusion (I recalled he had a lot of the PRR equipment diagrams after I wrote my first post). I found a diagram for a 70P70f, which has a raised coal collar (but so do many of the other 70P70 subclasses), but doesn't give dimensions for the collar. I remain living proof that the SPF will, despite good intentions, mire himself (or herself) in original documents and research long enough to drown. I'm also modelling some CNJ steam power where this does not occur, because I have to make massive compromises just to get a model that is close, but it is somewhat less stressful.... Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 12:38:10 -0400 From: "James Womble" Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Diesels having transition Did any of the Baldwin diesels have the transition feature - seems like I remember reading somewhere that this feature was not available. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:57:15 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Archieves Gene, I couldn't agree with you more. When I started modeling, I modeled the SP, since I was raised in SP territory on the Siskiyou branch. After haveing the same problem getting copies of prototype blueprints, I gave up, and eventually discovered that the PRRH&TS had a wonderful collection of microfilm covering most of the locos and cars in an era I was interested in. This is a tremendous boon to serious modelers who scratch build and want to accuratly portray a specific prototype. I am told in the early 60's, D.J.(Dirty John to sp fans,)Russell had all steam realted blueprints destroyed. The only remaining prints are the ones that were aleady in private collections. The wonderful preserved archive we have, cataloged or not, shows the forsight of our early memebers of the society. I also had the same problem trying to get copies of data from private collections. Doug endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > > The fact that the PRRH&TS has an archieve and some of it, car plans, is > accessable by members is great. > I have belonged to other societies and all of the good stuff is in the hands > of private individuals. These individuals have for the most part refused > to share. One of the reasons I model the PRR is that I am an avid > model builder and like to hae actual drawing to work from. Trying to find > SP car drawings is impossible through their society. > Improving the PRR archieves to include a searchable daabase would be > wonderful. Finding the people witht he time and skill to correctly > catalog the information is the real challenge. > > Gene Deimling > Los Gatos, CA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Value of an archive Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:48:25 -0400 "AN UNCATALOGED ARCHIVE IS USELESS TO A RESEARCHER" Right on - I couldn't agree more. What I hope we have (but suspect we don't) is a long range plan that addresses the cataloging/indexing issue, with estimates of the magnitude of the task, where and how to start, key help and skills needed, etc, etc. Given the size of our archives, this is certainly going to be a huge long range task. But the place to start is with a plan. Have we got one? There are many other historical societies with cataloged archives. We could certainly pick their brains (and presumably avoid some pitfalls) by talking to them as we put together our long range plans. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: QUICK trip to Philadelphia, PA Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:57:00 -0400 To the Group: I'm making a quick in and out of Phila on Sunday the 19th, mostly on business. I may have a few hours in the PM before dark. 1. Where is a good place to see some AMTRAK action near the 30th Street Station or within a 5 mile radius? 2. Where is a good place to get a good view of the coach yards at 30th Street Station? Thanks for any helf on short notice. (I have good Phila map and a GPS w/ Delorme Streets 7.0 on a laptop, if necessary.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 00:05:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Value of an archive From: "Doug and Marianne" Dear PRR Talk Friends: I'm not quite understanding the tone of this thread. It seems to be sounding quite negative towards the Society and its "selected priesthood" (whatever that is). Everybody agrees that the archiving process has been too slow, but this thread seems like uninformed rambling that is getting people all worked up in a counterproductive trashing of the organization. I'm sure that no one, especially the Society leadership is happy about the speed of digesting all the material into a useable archive. Such is the lot of a volunteer organization that seems to have more critics than volunteers. What I heard at the annual business meeting was a report on the progress that has been slow, but that the situation may change very soon. It was explained that the attempt to hire an individual to work on the archive was not successful. Further work on the archiving was delayed due to construction and maintenance at the station, including reconstruction of the tower and repointing of much of the masonry. Now that this work is completed, the leadership reported that they are ready to proceed again with the archiving process. They are planning to contract a professional archivist or firm to review the collection and prepare an archiving plan that can be implemented with the help of volunteers and professionals. To me this seems like reasonable actions are being taken within the limited resources of the organization. Or did I hear all this wrong? There was no report of the business meeting announcements in PRR Talk, and this thread has neglected to make any note of what was announced at the meeting. I hope that PRR Talk will stimulate constructive action rather than just be a forum of communal complaining. Thank you for allowing me this forum for complaining about the complaining. Doug Nelson Mill Valley, CA #4852 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 09:52:27 -0700 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] late 50's trip question Hi, This is really a late 40's to early 50's reply to the original post. We used to take a train trip cross-crountry and return each summer. We'd leave from Chatham, NY (a NYC/B&A/Rutland town) and go to California and return. My Dad found out that if you keep going in the same timetable direction, there was no extra charge for breaking the trip up into steps. His idea (and mine, but not my mom's) was to ride on as many railroads as possible during the trip. The ticket agent at Chatham used to shudder when he saw my Dad coming because all of the tickets and each segment had to be handwritten. They generally would up being a few feet long. The conductor would tear off the correct segment on each train. It sure was fun and I did get to ride on a number of name-trains before they disappeared. Of course, my Mom put up with it although I do remember her asking what the heck we were doing on the platform at Albuquerque at 2 am just having alighted from a most comfortable train. We were waiting for El Capitan and the most comfortable coach seats in the world. BTW-we always traveled coach. I never rode in a pullman berth until I was a grown adult with disposable income (and that was on a Mexican train and was in a US 50's era car anyway). To keep this on-list, we usually wound up the last segment of the trip on the PRR into New York City. My Dad was an equal-opportunity railfan. Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 714-278-2669 Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (Fax) P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 18:25:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Value of indexing an archive Friends, I want to thank Dave Nelson for constructively "complaining about the complaining". I can see that, read the wrong way, my last posting could be construed as attacking the Society in some way, which was not my intent. Instead, I'm trying to stimulate some constructive thinking about the way in which we go about archiving. Let's review some (of my) assumptions: 1. The Society is the good guys. For many good reasons, I intend to be a member until they cart me away. I intend the Society to succeed at what they do. 2. The Society has done well in creating a place (Lewistown) where archives can be kept, and where access to archives can be had. The fact that the station is a historic PRR building is icing on the cake. 3. The Society has done very well in saving an enormous body of information on the Pennsy (our archives). 4. The Society has begun the huge task of examining these archival materials, with the intent of creating some form of inventory. I believe archivists/librarians would use the jargon "index" or "catalog" in referring to this inventory. We all recognize that an effort of this size, done by volunteers, will take a while -- or a lifetime. Feel free to correct me on the above assumptions, but I feel pretty good about them -- and about the Society. By the way, if I didn't live a full day's drive west of Lewistown, I'd be down there helping list the collection; in other words, "taking the physical inventory" Next step -- exactly what kind of index are we starting to create? This is a natural thing for me to worry about, as I work with inventory databases for a living. Also, I'm involved in preparing a late friend's lifelong collection of railroad photos and paper for archive here in Louisville, so I'm already facing some of the database challenges in that rail-oriented effort. However, I don't think you need to be an information professional to worry about these issues/questions: 1. Is there an overall indexing plan? If so, who can inform me about it, or whom can I help to create one? 2. What mandatory fields of data are being recorded as the archive is being inventoried? Are these fields different for drawings of rolling stock, drawings of buildings, drawings of track layouts? 3. What kind of quality checks are being made on the recorded data? Is data consistent between people recording? 4. Is the data being entered into a computer, or just recorded on worksheets right now? 5. How much of the collection is text or graphical materials that should be scanned right into a computer? Keep in mind that I'm a database freak, as well as a railfan historian. In my mind, the questions go on: 6. Will the data be loaded into a database like Microsoft Access? This kind of collection is far too complex to simply record in a flatfile format like a spreadsheet. It's also large enough it shouldn't be stored electronically as a flatfile. 7. Who pre-establishes the valid codes we'll need for indexing/searching a database? These will include things like - car classes - phase of lettering/marking/painting - divisions and branch identification - milepost location - legal ownership/predecessor company - date of design - date of obsoleting and many others -- and they need to be designated/validated/formatted before the inventory is taken, or else you get to do the whole thing again later. Ask me -- I've been there. 8. Will a logical end result be a searchable database? Should this database be housed on a Society server? Should searchable excerpts be sold on CD-ROM, or via file transfer? Should search use of the database be dial-in to a website? What's the best way to fund this capability and control its use? 9. Whatever the desired end result, can we design in some useful intermediate results? Especially since we're dependent on volunteers, any "systems" effort needs to bear some fruit rather quickly. Good results as we go along motivates the workers, and provides a check that we're headed in the right direction. Fortunately, Dave's posting contains a hint of progress from the business meeting that I overlooked: <> In my mind, contracting an archive plan is a good move. Like most consulting, this will allow the consultant to poll us on our ideas, add some lessons learned elsewhere, and present this thinking back to the Society in an actionable plan. Often, the use of an outside consultant helps break down some of the mental or political barriers to making a change. I can only add that any of us who are computer-search-experienced will want the consultants to hear informed requests for index-searchable information, not just a plan to count the assets and then bank-vault them. I can only hope that others not electronically inclined can see the value and the sense in this requirement. Again, I invite criticism and suggestions on what I've said here. Hopefully, I've made myself better understood, and my comments will help the Society to handle this challenge in its usual highly professional way. I will, however, repeat Tom Vondruska's warning that "AN UNCATALOGED ARCHIVE IS USELESS TO A RESEARCHER" and I'll repeat my belief that cataloging through a database, while not obvious to all the membership, is one of the Society's most important challenges right now. Either we will do this right, or we will waste a lot of good-intentioned work. Obviously, I'm hoping we -- the members of the Society -- can find the wisdom to do this one right. Rick Tipton Member, PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 18:25:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's Norwood suburban station In a message dated 8/24/99 12:29:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bak@one.net writes: << At the risk of tipping my non-railroad-afficiando hand, let me just confirm that the station about which you are seeking info is NOT the one in Queensgate, which is called Union Terminal. Once you confirm that to my dense brain, I'll begin to do some research into the one in Norwood. Thanks, Barbara in Cincinnati >> Barbara, Have been out of town a lot lately, and am getting something of a shock as I clean out my old emails. I just found your kind message, and am not sure what kind of answer you might have gotten from me earlier. You are right, we are not talking about Cincinnati Union Terminal here. CUT of course has a long and fairly well known history. Construction started on remodeling the rail approaches in 1926, and I think the main Union Terminal building was dedicated in 1934, with partial use in 1933 during a flood emergency. I smiled at your identifying it as "the station in Queensgate", as I remember the art deco CUT from small childhood in the 1950's, while the remodeling of the B&O Yard into Queensgate was named that sometime in the 80's. The PRR Norwood station we're tracking down was built roughly the same time, and IS part of the CUT story. But it's not nearly as large or well known, because it's 1. a small suburban station 2. in Norwood, a residential neighborhood well northeast of downtown 3. not visible from any major street 4. was visited only by Pennsylvania Railroad trains. In 1926 or so, the Pennsylvania Railroad was still serving Cincinnati with an 1800's depot near the Ohio River at Pearl Street; this should be roughly at the eastern edge of Riverfront Stadium. To abandon Pearl Street and bring its trains into Union Station, the Pennsy built a connection from existing PRR tracks in Norwood, and to the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad in Norwood. Inbound Pennsy passenger trains from either Richmond IN (and Chicago) or Xenia OH (and New York, Pittsburgh, and Columbus) would turn onto the new track, and could stop at the new PRR Norwood station. Being built in the Art Deco period, the new PRR suburban station was moderately sized, but styled and detailed like "late art deco". This styling made it look like no other suburban station in Cincinnati (and maybe no other in Ohio). After this stop the PRR passenger trains would enter the B&O's main line and run past the B&O Norwood station to the west. This B&O line is the one paralleled today by the Norwood Lateral. Once on the B&O, the inbound PRR passenger trains ran west toward the Mill Creek Valley and used tracks down the valley to the north end of CUT. With the end of PRR passenger service into Cincinnati, the PRR Norwood station became excess property, and has for years been owned and occupied by (I believe) a fraternal organization. Recently, the Cincinnati Railroad Club has asked railfans if they can help locate any information or plans having to do with the PRR Norwood station, preparing for a projected exhibit. And I (last month) passed this request on to several logical email communities. We'd be grateful for any info that can be unearthed -- this is one part of Cincinnati's railroad story that isn't even touched in Carl Condit's excellent The Railroad and the City. Rick Tipton Whose grandparents were Cincinnati residents. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 15:53:36 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Re: Value of indexing an archive From: "Doug and Marianne" Rick and others interested in accessing the archives: As I reported in my previous post, it was reported at the business meeting that a professional archivist or firm will be contracted to produce an archiving plan. I only know what I heard at the meeting, but I believe that this will be happening soon. The consultant will probably want to know exactly the kind of information that is in Rick's post. I suggest that you contact Walt Keeley to find out more about the hiring of the consultant and how you might be able to become involved in how the consultant designs the indexing system. My guess is that both Walt and the consultant will welcome your input. Doug Nelson Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Value of indexing an archive Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Rick (& group), I agree with your entire post, having had some amateur expertise in databasing, but wish merely to amplify one point that I think was the concern of some: > 8. Will a logical end result be a searchable database? Should this database > be housed on a Society server? Should searchable excerpts be sold on CD-ROM, > or via file transfer? Should search use of the database be dial-in to a > website? What's the best way to fund this capability and control its use? I think the concern was 1) would the end-result be something modern (i.e. digital) and not something paper-based, and 2) would it be accessible to those who do not have a key to the Lewistown building? If I'm too cynical, tell me. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:52:58 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] Value of an archive Silver Pines Farm wrote: > > Rick and all, > > I received my copy of the Keystone yesterday, and noted that on page 18, > with the > completion of the Lewistown station, there is a request for volunteers > to help > catalog the archives contained therein. Volunteers anyone? > > Doug > Sure, just send a couple boxes up here to North East, PA. I'm sure a lot of us would LOVE to dig through the archives, if we could do it from home during our free time. But how many of us are within commuting distance, or could afford to spend vacation time down there. On the other hand, the Society can't just ship out irreplaceable material to anyone just because he/she forks out $30 a year. And yes, it MUST be indexed by computer, and a committee must be formed to decide the database format before the work is started. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Value of indexing an archive Date: Mon, 20 Sep 99 06:20:12 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/19/99 8:00 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >I agree with your entire post, having had some amateur expertise in >databasing, >but wish merely to amplify one point that I think was the concern of some: > > >> 8. Will a logical end result be a searchable database? Should this database > >> be housed on a Society server? Should searchable excerpts be sold on CD-ROM, > >> or via file transfer? Should search use of the database be dial-in to a >> website? What's the best way to fund this capability and control its use? > > >I think the concern was 1) would the end-result be something modern (i.e. >digital) and not something paper-based, and 2) would it be accessible to >those who do not have a key to the Lewistown building? My apologies...I have been waist deep in a Solaris (UNIX) Y2K upgrade over the past 48 hours and have not participated in this thread. The society does plan a database archive, but is adamently against distributing it because "competing societies can make use of the same information". Personally, I think it should be database-searchable online, much like the diesel and cabin car rosters on "Keystone Crossings". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:46:58 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] late 50's passenger question Well, I checked with the senior member of the family; my oldest brother regarding the need for the trip to Paoli. The PRR had a special excursion rate that was arranged so that on any round trip ticket (long distance, at least), if you stopped off at another destination either going to or coming from your main destination, the overall rate was cheaper. For us, Paoli was that secondary destination. I used a similar packaging on an airline trip in 1997 and saved hundreds of dollars. While I thought we boarded at N. Philly in both cases, my brother says neighbors took us to Paoli for the actual start of the California trip. Hope this helps. Dave > > In 1954, our family went to California from Philly and did the same thing. > Being 8 at the time, I couldn't tell you why, but I'll check with some of >my older family members to see if they know. I know we road coach from N. >Philly to Chicago leaving on a Saturday evening. The weekend before, I >think, we road N. Philly to Paoli and back. > >Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:36:48 -0400 From: sam reynolds Subject: [PRR] PRR coal hoppers on the CNJ/iron ore trains To members of the list, I was recently looking through Volume 2 of the Morning Sun book on the CNJ, and found several photos of PRR coal hoppers either in the consist of CNJ freight trains north of Allentown, PA, or in the CNJ yard at Jim Thorpe, PA. The photos appear to have been taken either just prior to or after the creation of the Penn Central. Can anyone shed light on the presence of these hoppers on the CNJ. I am curious to learn if they may have come off the PRR/PC at either Wilkes Barre or Temanend, and were assigned to Bethlehem Steel. In addition to this request for information, can anyone supply information on the movement of iron ore trains off the PRR at Phillipsburg, PA and onto the CNJ for transfer to Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem, PA. I am trying to find out what role coal hoppers played in the consist of these trains (carrying ore and/or coal), and what class of coal hoppers were typically assigned. Thanks in advance for any assistance on these subjects. Sam Reynolds ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coal hoppers on the CNJ/iron ore trains Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:05:59 -0400 The hoppers came off the PRR at Mt. Carmel and were given to the LV, not the CNJ, for transport to Bethlehem Steel. They were typically H-21, H-21a and GLa, and a few GLes. The circle went something like this. Loaded with ore at Phila. to Pittsburgh area, loaded with soft coal in the Pittsburgh area destination Erie. Loaded with ore in Erie for Bethlehem. Empty from Bethlehem to Phila. I would assume the LV gave the empties to PRR at Phillipburg down the BelDel to Phila. If there were PRR hoppers on the CNJ they were probably hauling anthracite to points in New Jersey and/or New England or possibly bituminous to a power plant in that area. Can't say for sure. We used to have a coal train about 3 times a week called AN-16 that ran from Altoona over the Bald Eagle to Northumberland where the Wilkes Barre crew would pick it up and take it to Buttonwood where they gave it to the CNJ for where i do not know. That was in the 1964 to 1968 time frame, long after the Erie docks had been shut down (1957). AN-16 ran every day but there was coal only about three days a week. "AN" of course was Altoona-Northumberland, but the coal always went on to Wilkes Barre. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: sam reynolds To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 1:53 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR coal hoppers on the CNJ/iron ore trains >To members of the list, > >I was recently looking through Volume 2 of the Morning Sun book on the >CNJ, and found several photos of PRR coal hoppers either in the consist >of CNJ freight trains north of Allentown, PA, or in the CNJ yard at Jim >Thorpe, PA. The photos appear to have been taken either just prior to >or after the creation of the Penn Central. Can anyone shed light on the >presence of these hoppers on the CNJ. I am curious to learn if they may >have come off the PRR/PC at either Wilkes Barre or Temanend, and were >assigned to Bethlehem Steel. > >In addition to this request for information, can anyone supply >information on the movement of iron ore trains off the PRR at >Phillipsburg, PA and onto the CNJ for transfer to Bethlehem Steel in >Bethlehem, PA. I am trying to find out what role coal hoppers played in >the consist of these trains (carrying ore and/or coal), and what class >of coal hoppers were typically assigned. > >Thanks in advance for any assistance on these subjects. > >Sam Reynolds > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:23:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coal hoppers on the CNJ/iron ore trains PRR owned so many cars it was not unusual to find X-29's or H-21's in a consist anywhere within the standard gauge North American Rail network Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:00:49 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coal hoppers on the CNJ/iron ore trains --On Mon, Sep 20, 1999 2:23 PM +0000 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > PRR owned so many cars it was not unusual to find X-29's or H-21's in a > consist anywhere within the standard gauge North American Rail network > Dick Ross In the interest of clarification, I'll agree with the X-29 comment, but have to question the sweeping nature of this statement regarding H-21's, given the differing nature of box car and hopper ladings. It would be interesting to learn just how far afield Pennsy hoppers actually did roam and in which regions outside the Northeastern US (St. Louis-Chicago-Washington, DC-New York City) they might be seen in more than one-zies and two-zies. For example, could you expect, especially in the pre-oil and natural gas pipeline age, to find PRR-shipped coal consigned to a customer in the oil- and natural gas-rich areas of the Southwest in competition with D&RGW, AT&SF, or UP? Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Fw: [PRR] PRR coal hoppers on the CNJ/iron ore trains Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:42:57 -0400 The H-21s carried anthracite coal used in home heating (plus the steam locomotives on the CNJ, LV, L&NE, Reading, and possibly the B&M and D&H.) Since anthracite was only mined in eastern Pennsylvania, I would imagine a lot of it wound up heating homes out west before oil and natural gas became the norm. A lot of hard coal was exported also to foreign countries which might possibly have included Canada as well. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coal hoppers on the CNJ/iron ore trains >--On Mon, Sep 20, 1999 2:23 PM +0000 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > >> PRR owned so many cars it was not unusual to find X-29's or H-21's in a >> consist anywhere within the standard gauge North American Rail network >> Dick Ross > >In the interest of clarification, I'll agree with the X-29 comment, but have >to question the sweeping nature of this statement regarding H-21's, given >the differing nature of box car and hopper ladings. It would be interesting >to learn just how far afield Pennsy hoppers actually did roam and in which >regions outside the Northeastern US (St. Louis-Chicago-Washington, DC-New >York City) they might be seen in more than one-zies and two-zies. For >example, could you expect, especially in the pre-oil and natural gas >pipeline age, to find PRR-shipped coal consigned to a customer in the oil- >and natural gas-rich areas of the Southwest in competition with D&RGW, >AT&SF, or UP? > >Vagel Keller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Amtrak wreck Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:45:18 -0400 My grapevine tells me that an Amtrak train has rear ended a CSX freight around lunch time (EST) today. Anybody got any details. Drudge Report doesn't show it yet. So you MAY have heard it from me first! Bill V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:17:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Ed Turner - SE BellSouth District Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak wreck Amtrak, Freight Train Collide in Md. CUMBERLAND, Md. (AP)--An Amtrak train headed from Chicago to Washington, D.C., rear-ended a freight train Monday in a rail yard, injuring at least 25 passengers. Amtrak spokeswoman Debbie Hare said none of the injuries was considered life-threatening. The Capital Limited collided with the CSX train just before noon as the 83-car freight train was pulling into the company's yard, said CSX spokeswoman Kathy Burns. No CSX crew members were hurt. The freight train was carrying motor vehicles from Willard, Ohio. Amtrak arranged for buses to take the passengers the remaining 136 miles to Washington. > From: "Bill Volkmer" > To: "talk prr" > Subject: [PRR] Amtrak wreck > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:45:18 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 > List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.6 by Fog City Software, Inc. > List-Subscribe: > List-Digest: > List-Unsubscribe: > > My grapevine tells me that an Amtrak train has rear ended a CSX freight > around lunch time (EST) today. Anybody got any details. Drudge Report > doesn't show it yet. So you MAY have heard it from me first! > > Bill V. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, Systems Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Computer Systems Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6785 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:43:33 -0400 From: steve Subject: [PRR] need stats the PRR corridor between philly and nyc (extending to boston) was once the heaviest volume in the world. is there a place on the web with current rail stats world-wide to see the volume compared to european lines? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: QUICK trip to Philadelphia, PA Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:20:34 -0400 Thanks to Chuck , Sean, John, Ted and NDB for your replies. A quick report on a really quick visit to Phila. 1. The parking lot on the north side of the 30th Street Station is a great vantage point for the area near the Station. There appeared to be a part of the yard to the west beyond some buildings and the High Line. It appeared that area was used for the storage of the SEPTA Silverliners, if that is what they are called. 2. Shorter folks need a ladder. I'm 5 foot 16 inches and I was able to lean on top of the wall. Those under 5 foot 12 inches may have a problem. 3. I was there on Sunday at about 4PM. The yard was basically full, unfortunately. One of the new ACELA locomotives and some cars were buried behind some Amtrak coaches, as a result I had a great view of one of pantographs and the top of the windshield. I could not see below of the roofs, but if the cars behind the ACELA locomotive were indeed, new ACELA cars, they were equipped with some type of roof mounted pods with louvers on the sides, ALA the old self propelled Metroliners. Question # 1: Is the high line still used?? Question # 2: What is the elevated structure south from Washington along 25th Street in Phila. There were some out croppings to the west from this structure every block or so. The concrete structure was equipped with a steel structure for catenary but there was no wire. This structure goes for several blocks south. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:13:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Warren Pa. I am doing research for my future layout and need to know some things about Warren Pa. First I know that the PRR had a small yard next to Struthers Wells and Their Passenger Station. What motive power was assigned to the yard in 1957. I have photo's of some FM switchers in the mide 60's but need to know 1957. Also am I correct to assume that the NYC Valley Branch (4 letter word) and the PRR interchanged in Warren. The two lines also connected (I think) at Irvington and Titusville. Although Titusville was the Pennsy Pittsburgh to Buffalo line. Also what were the typical yard yard operations in 1957 if known? I know I am asking a lot Thanks Brian J Carlson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:22:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR coal hoppers on the CNJ/iron ore trains The PRR also took ore to Bethlehem from Philadelphia. Because of an agreement between the railroads, trains could be turned over to either the LV or CNJ for delivery. I don't remember the exact routing, maybe via the BelDel? Ken, care to elaborate? Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:01:52 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Funaro and Camerlengo Resin Kits Hello list, This may come as a shock, but I do build kits other than locomotives (those of you following my I1sa posts and 70P70 series tender posts will no doubt fall over in shock). I'm struggling a bit with a Funaro and Camerlengo hopper. I thought I'd be well prepared; I've built two Westerfield kits so far, and they went together quite well; the directions were superb. Perhaps it's just my ineptitude, but I've broken several pieces of the F&C kit. The resin has no flex in it, unlike the Westerfield kits, which were close enough to plastic to be easy for me to work with. The only adhesive that seems to work on the resin is Walthers goo; Duro super glue seems to have no effect. Do any of you on the lists have suggestions (other than drinking beer, as I've already done that and it hasn't helped much) for working with this brand of kit? In particular, what adhesives work with this resin, and how do you drill into this stuff without shattering it or cracking it? I'm going to have to drill holes to mount the trucks, and I'm nervous about it because drilling far smaller holes has resulted in shattering and cracking elsewhere. Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:47:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Marietta Branch/Marietta Division Oops -- Just sent this message out under a spectacularly irrelevant title. Let's try this again: In a message dated 8/31/99 4:33:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimsix@ncweb.com writes: << Rick, Can you tell me anything about the Pennsy branchline that went south through east central Ohio to Marysville Ohio on the Ohio River? The line more or less paralleled Interstate-77 as many o f the fills, abutments, and even some bridges remain in place today. When did operations stop on the line. What kind of power and traffic was on the line? Jim Six >> Jim, You must be thinking of the old Marietta Division (circa 1900). At that time, it is shown as operating from Valley Junction through Zoar, Canal Dover, Newcomerstown, Cambridge (and Cambridge Shops), Caldwell, and to Marietta on the Ohio. The 1900 Lines West timetable shows 5 passenger trains south and 4 trains north daily. Only pix/contact I have had with this line was crossing it at Newcomerstown on the Panhandle main, and only from 1972. Believe the engine facilities at Town disappeared rapidly after then. Anyone else able to help with this branch in the 40's through 60's? Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:11:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR:F & C KITS Doug - Do you know what kind of resin the kit is made of? It should say somewhere on the kit (polyester, urethane, etc.) I might have some tips for you. Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Marietta Branch/Marietta Division Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:49:32 -0400 I was General Foreman at the Canton Diesel Shop in 1963 and we had four FM H-20-44s assigned for service on that line. As I remember it, at any given time 3 of the 4 were out on the line and the principal customer was a coal mine at Dexter City. From there to Marietta traffic was very light. There was a small facility at Cambridge where the units would layup and the coal was brought north and I believe left at Minerva on the line to Mingo Junction. We also kept an RS1 at Dover for local service in that area. While I was in Canton, we had a major derailment where 3 of my four FMs rolled over in a ditch and did rather extensive damage. (My units were numbered 8939,40,41,42. If I remember correctly the three that were wrecked were the 39, 41 and 42. I completely repainted the 41 and 42 and they became the very first non-chopped nose units on the entire PRR to receive the keystone treatment. I patterned it after the DL-640s and C-425s that had recently been delivered. There are pictures in one of the Pennsy Diesel Years books, I believe Volume 2. Hows that? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com To: jimsix@ncweb.com ; MIDEASTmodeler@onelist.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 7:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Marietta Branch/Marietta Division >Oops -- Just sent this message out under a spectacularly irrelevant title. >Let's try this again: > >In a message dated 8/31/99 4:33:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimsix@ncweb.com >writes: > ><< Rick, > > Can you tell me anything about the Pennsy branchline that went south through > east central Ohio to Marysville Ohio on the Ohio River? The line more or > less paralleled Interstate-77 as many o f the fills, abutments, and even > some bridges remain in place today. When did operations stop on the line. > What kind of power and traffic was on the line? > > Jim Six >> >Jim, >You must be thinking of the old Marietta Division (circa 1900). At that >time, it is shown as operating from Valley Junction through Zoar, Canal >Dover, Newcomerstown, Cambridge (and Cambridge Shops), Caldwell, and to >Marietta on the Ohio. The 1900 Lines West timetable shows 5 passenger trains >south and 4 trains north daily. > >Only pix/contact I have had with this line was crossing it at Newcomerstown >on the Panhandle main, and only from 1972. Believe the engine facilities at >Town disappeared rapidly after then. > >Anyone else able to help with this branch in the 40's through 60's? > >Rick Tipton > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Fw: Fw: [PRR] Baldwin Diesels having transition Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:01:20 -0400 Yesterday, James Womble asked if Baldwins made transition and if so, how. I took the liberty of forwarding the question to a former Baldwin Locomotive Works diesel engineer. Here is his answer. His answer made simple is "Yes"! (But read on!) The Orinoco Mining railroad he speaks of is in Venezuela and used a combination of Baldwin Roadswitchers, EMD SD-9s and EMD SW-1200s WITH dynamic brake like the SP and Lehigh Valley. Bill V. Always trying to help. -----Original Message----- From: PRRNKP@aol.com To: herzog@icanect.net Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 11:11 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Baldwin Diesels having transition >Bill - I'll tell U what I remember. I'm not sure if a 4 motor >BLW/BLH had transition. I believe their motors were permanently connected in >2S-2P with field shunting used to keep on the main generator constant HP >curve. The AS616's that we had on the Orinoco Mining RR were permanently >connected 3S-2P but they employed both field shunting and FIELD SHORTING. >The TM fields were shunted up to about 40 KPH then the the S3 and S4 power >contactors closed that shorted out the TM3 and TM4 fields but left the >armatures in the circuit. Now you had effectively a 4 motor loco. Further >field shunting occurred which kept you on the constant HP curve up to about >60 mph. > > The Orinoco AS616's had plain bearings with about 1.75" >lateral clearance per axle that enabled them to "articulate" on the uneven >mine trackage. However, when U got 'em out on the main line they nosed >terribly on tangent track above 40 KPH; slam-banging against their lateral >stops. If U operated long hood lead (normal) it was tolerable up to 60 KPH. >But if U were operating "backing-up" (short hood lead) anything above 40 KPH >was "unnerving" since there was no trailing unit to "anchor" the cab end of >the leading unit. > > I had it out with our RR supt. over restricting the AS616's >to 60 KPH and asked him to ride a trip to prove my point. He refused and I >claimed safety first as my reason for not exceeding 60 KPH. Our motto on >that RR was: "uphill slow, downhill fast; tonnage first, and safety last!" >Bill, I'm sure you've heard that little jingle before. We operated our >"cadillacs" (SD9's) at 70-80 KPH on mtys. and 70-60 KPH on loads. With >roller brgs. they rode well. Also the throttle/dynamic braking control >(electric) was more precise on the SD9's vs. the horrid air throttle we had >on the AS616's. The AS616 was as close to steam loco. as any diesel could be >what with the rough ride, the "chug" of the exhaust (usually do to valve >blow), the feel of the air throttle (they didn't maintain the air regulating >valves), and the need to keep an eye on the water glass. This due to the >warping of the massive side sheet of the inline 8 cyl. engine case that >resulted in cracks and welds, resulting in more cracks with their attendant >water leaks. > > I returned to the Orinoco RR in 1988 on a sales call for GE. >The SD9's were in yard service with SD38's now the road engines. There was >one AS616 still left, the 1005. I rode the RR and was surprised how little >had changed in 27 years. I was glad to have an opportunity to run the >Baldwins. They required more skill, if that is the word, than running an >EMD. > > My biggest scare with the Baldwins was coming down the 3% >grade with an ore train one night and had all 3 units die. There were so >many low voltage grounds that the lead unit control circuit breaker tripped >causing all diesel engines to shut down. My solution: pull the jumper >between the 2nd and 3rd units (so the lead unit control breaker had only 2 >units to "feed") and put my fireman (asistente) to run the 3rd unit >independently per my instructions. Fortunately, I was able to restart all >units (the batteries were never maintained) and resume our perilous descent >of the 3%. > > Bill, I could go on with other Baldwin tales but I'll quit for >the night on this one. Oh yes, field shunting was controlled by an air motor >driven cam shaft that actuated switches that controlled the pick-up and >drop-out of FS or S3/S4 contactors. The air motor was controlled by a main >generator voltage sensing relays. I still have a pencil copy of the >electrical schematic that I made from the ONLY BLH schematic on the property. > > >Best regards, > > Ben F. Anthony (former locomotive operator instructor 1958 -1961, Orinoco >Mining Co., Cerro Bolivar Mine, Venezuela) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:32:49 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:F & C KITS Dayna and the list, My F&C kit is polyester according to the instruction sheet. Thanks, Doug DWa9975062@aol.com wrote: > Doug - Do you know what kind of resin the kit is made of? It should say > somewhere on the kit (polyester, urethane, etc.) I might have some tips for > you. Dayna > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:46:35 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] List quietude Hello list, It's been quiet the last few days; as of 2020 EDT, I've only gotten 8 posts since Sunday. Is everything all right (aside from rampant flooding in New Jersey)? Have I scared you away with my decapod questions? Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:44:37 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] I1sa variations Hello list, I'm working on my I1sa again. Through photos, I've come up with some more variations in the I1sa fleet. My latest discovery concerns the lefthand air pump and running boards over it. It appears that the I1s engines were built without running boards over their air pumps or, in the case of the Baldwin built engines, the feedwater heater. By the end of WWII, it appears that all of the I1s/I1sa engines had running boards over their left air pumps and feedwater heaters. Photos from the 30s show the engines without running boards over the left air pump, but all of the photos I've looked at that are definitely postwar show the added running board. What does this mean in HO scale if you're using a Bowser kit? You're going to remove some of the cast on lefthand running board, preferrably with a Dremel/cutoff disc combination. Then, you're going to make a new running board to fit around the FWH and air pump, using, in my case, sheet styrene. If anyone on the list has more precise information as to the time of this particular change, I'm all ears. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:22:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR:F & C KITS Doug & list - I have no experience with this particular kit but have found some very brittle polyesters. In order to drill holes I have used a high speed drill and very little pressure. You will probably have to use a drill that is smaller than the hole you wish to make as friction will tend to enlarge the hole. As far as glue goes sometimes you can wash both parts with alcohol (if possible break any shiny surfaces with a nail board) and apply some gap filling CA. If that doesn't work most hobby shops can supply you with a two part epoxy for polyesters. Hope this helps. - Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: I1sa variations. Doug, I checked my photo collection for your question about the I1sa running board installation. The earliest photo that is in my collection that shows the running board applied to the FWH and the pump is for Dec. 1939. Loco # 4635. Not all I1's got this treatment as there are any photos of the mid 50's showing no boards installed. So if you model, either way would be corect but make sure you model from a photo so you get the numbers and variations correct. ....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:15:22 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] Warren Pa. FarbLand@aol.com wrote: > > I am doing research for my future layout and need to know some things about > Warren Pa. First I know that the PRR had a small yard next to Struthers Wells > and Their Passenger Station. What motive power was assigned to the yard in > 1957. I have photo's of some FM switchers in the mide 60's but need to know > 1957. Also am I correct to assume that the NYC Valley Branch (4 letter word) > and the PRR interchanged in Warren. The two lines also connected (I think) at > Irvington and Titusville. Although Titusville was the Pennsy Pittsburgh to > Buffalo line. Also what were the typical yard yard operations in 1957 if > known? I know I am asking a lot Thanks > Brian J Carlson > Brian, The 1945 CT1000C list of stations & sidings shows the junction with PRR's Buffalo Division east of the station, & the junction with the NYC (boo, hiss) west of the station. Irvineton shows two connections with the Buffalo Div., and none with the NYC. I typed up the Philadelphia & Erie branch entries at the following URL: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/pe_ct1k.htm -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] List quietude Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 21:31:05 -0400 From: Jerry On 9/21/99 8:46 PM, doug.kisala (doug.kisala@mciworld.com) wrote: >It's been quiet the last few days; as of 2020 EDT, I've only gotten 8 >posts since Sunday. Is everything all right (aside from rampant >flooding in New Jersey)? >Have I scared you away with my decapod questions? > Doug: No use posting "are we alive" questions. Yes, we are. Server is fine. No problems. Came through hurricane Floyd like a champ. All of the lists on my server are a bit quieter. However, I've also noted a slowdown in other lists that I subscribe to. The weather? Who knows! -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 00:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: Re: I1sa running board. Steve, Doug, I need to amend my observations I made about my photos I was looking at. The earliest I1sa that I have with the running boards installed is indeed 1937. However, I made a mistake on the statement about the I1sa's not having them in the mid 50's. The photos I was looking at were placed in the album with the wrong caption tags. Instead of being taken in the 1955 time period like I said, they were actually taken in the mid 30's according to the info that is written on the BACK of the photo. So I looked in my albums again and I found the latest date of 1951 for an I1sa to not have the running boards. This loco is #4635. I don't have any later photo of her to see if the boards were installed at a later date. Eventualy #4635 was sold for scrap in 1957. I will get a scan of it sooner or later as I only have access to a scanner periodicaly. Thanks for making me repost the "correct" info Steve.......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:42:56 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] QUICK trip to Philadelphia, PA Weldon asked: > Question # 2: What is the elevated structure south from Washington along > 25th Street in Phila. There were some out croppings to the west from this >structure every block or so. The concrete structure was equipped with a >steel structure for catenary but there was no wire. This structure goes >for several blocks south. I'll likely get in trouble for this answer, as the branch I think you are referring to is locally refferred to as the "Grey's Ferry Branch", but I think has another name in reality. I believe you are talking about the freight connection, formerly electrified to the south Philly waterfront. This came up years ago on this list...haven't had a chance to check the archives this morning. (the baby let me get 3 1/2 hours of sleep last night!) Happy (YAWN!) Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:57:55 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Update Rail Fest / PRR-Talk Dinner Oct 2 Greetings to the group, Based upon imput from the group and Hoss's schedule for that evening, I've made reservations for 7:30 PM Saturday, October 2, 1999 at the Altoona Hoss's. We will be limited to 35 for that evening. This should not affect us. We've had less than that at the last two Rail Fest get togethers. They have a bus and another group that evening. We'll be in the banquet room again. As during the PRR T&HS get together, when you arrive, just go back to the banquet room. We will not have to go through the line to order. Let's hope no line for paying this time. They will take our orders in the banquet room. A 15% gratuity will be added to the bills. I trust the group has enjoyed Hoss's as much as my family and I have over the years. Even for more money, I really can't think of a nicer place for us to get together at. Please let me know prior to Wednesday, September 29, 1999 if you plan to attend the dinner. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 10:05:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy engines Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. A5s - Strasburg B6sb - Strasburg D16sb - Strasburg E-6 - Strasburg G5s - Long Island? H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg I-1 Buffalo K4s - Scranton M1b - Strasburg GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. Louis, Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL P5a - St Louis GP9 - Horseshoe Curve Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial train?) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:35:09 -0500 (CDT) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] I1sa variations > >What does this mean in HO scale if you're using a Bowser kit? You're >going to remove some of the cast on lefthand running board, preferrably >with a Dremel/cutoff disc combination. Then, you're going to make a new >running board to fit around the FWH and air pump, using, in my case, >sheet styrene. I made mine out of brass. You have to do the same thing with the right side if you model the two compressor version. Because there is nothing to add in there, I have the right side elevated runningboard epoxied onto the engine. Have to wait until the feedwater heater is installed to add the left side RB. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:40:31 -0500 (CDT) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines >Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. >I-1 Buffalo Actually the I-1 is in Hamburg, which is a bit west of Buffalo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:37:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Will S-E Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines C425 - Port Colbourne Harbor Railway 6101-Port Colbourne, Ontario, former PRR 2423/CR 2423/CR 5062/NYLE 6101 Go to http://alcoman.railfan.net/temp/pchr6101.jpg to see a VERY recent picture of it. On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: >Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. >A5s - Strasburg >B6sb - Strasburg >D16sb - Strasburg >E-6 - Strasburg >G5s - Long Island? >H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg >I-1 Buffalo >K4s - Scranton >M1b - Strasburg >GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. Louis, >Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL >P5a - St Louis >GP9 - Horseshoe Curve >Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial >train?) > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:46:29 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] PRR Feeder Lines - EBT Announcement For those interested in such things, the East Broad Top RR, a 3-foot gauge line that connected to the PRR at Mt. Union, PA in the Juniata Valley, will hold its annual Fall Spectacular on Sat-Sun, Oct. 9-10, 1999. Falling as this does a week after Rail Fest, it might be too much for some, but it's well worth attending to see four Baldwin-built 2-8-2 steam engines, original to the EBT, in operation with a variety of consists. For those PRR traction enthusiasts who missed seeing a real Brill Model 350 in operation, the EBT's M1 is a 3-foot gauge version of one ... built with Brill drawings and Westinghouse trucks and prime mover. It will probably operated once each day. The current tourist operation is centered in the EBT's Orbisonia Station, approx. 11 miles south of Mt. Union on US 522. Trains operate on a 5-mile segment of the original mainline. The EBT operated as a common carrier from 1874 thru 1956. Originally built as infrastructure for an iron making firm, the EBT was essentially coal feeder to the PRR after 1910. Besides its gauge and longevity, one of the major features that make the EBT unique is its large fleet of steel rolling stock, most of which consisted of all-steel, 3-bay hoppers rolling on Vulcan trucks. Most of the more than 300 steel hoppers survive, stored in the railroad's main yards in Mt. Union and Rockhill (adjacent to the Orbisonia Station). Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:44:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Will S-E Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Not be be a nitpick but Hamburg is straight south of Buffalo. If anyone on the list is heading up this way and wants directions on how to get to the I-1 just email me off the list and I will be happy to oblige. On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, Don Harper wrote: >>Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. > >>I-1 Buffalo > >Actually the I-1 is in Hamburg, which is a bit west of Buffalo > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:04:15 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines >Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. >P5a - St Louis To pick a nit, this loco, #4700, is not a P5a, but one of the two prototype P5 locomotives...no P5a, boxcab or modified were saved from the torch. Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:59:37 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: QUICK trip to Philadelphia, PA >Question # 1: Is the high line still used?? > Yes. In fact, with the CSX takeover, it is supposed to be used more frequently. North-South CSX traffic not needing to enter Eastside Yard is now supposed to go by the Highline as a result of the rebilding of an old connection from Grays Ferry down to the old B&O on the west side of the Schuylkill. However, I haven't seen any CSX trains on the Highline. > Question # 2: What is the elevated structure south from Washington along > 25th Street in Phila. There were some out croppings to the west from this >structure every block or so. The concrete structure was equipped with a >steel structure for catenary but there was no wire. This structure goes >for several blocks south. The elevated structure along 25th St. is the PRR freight line into S. Philly and Greenwich Yard. This line comes off of the Highline at Arsenal Tower (near to the UofP Franklin Field stadium), crosses the Schuylkill Expressway, the Schuylkill River, and the old B&O before heading into S. Philly via the elevated ROW. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:53:15 -0400 There is also a G-5s in Strasburg, and there used to be a couple really beat GG-1's near Oneonta NY on the D&H. I'm not sure whether they're still there. I also thought there was a K-4s in Strasburg. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 10:13 AM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy engines >Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. >A5s - Strasburg >B6sb - Strasburg >D16sb - Strasburg >E-6 - Strasburg >G5s - Long Island? >H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg >I-1 Buffalo >K4s - Scranton >M1b - Strasburg >GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. Louis, >Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL >P5a - St Louis >GP9 - Horseshoe Curve >Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial >train?) > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:08:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] P5 painting & lettering Hi all, Speaking of P5 locomotives...I compiled the following chronology of P5 painting and lettering in response to some questions, and my own interest in painting my P5s correctly...Please comment! Paint and Lettering, P5 class The following are based on a detailed review of the photographs of P5 locomotives in Pennsy Power I and II, Under Pennsy Wires, and The Electric Locomotive Plan and Photo Book. Chronology: Paint was always the same DGLE - body, roof Black - steps, pilot, pantograph, frame. Note that this includes the lower band (12") of the P5a modified body. Marker lights (on body) - latest photograph with markers - 1939. Lettering P5/P5a boxcab 1932-early '40s latest photo -1940 Block "PENNSYLVANIA" (cove P & S) on sides 18" keystone, with number centered on sides 12" keystone, with number on end doors early '40s to scrapping earliest photo -1942 Modified Block "PENNSYLVANIA" (round P & S) on sides Large numbers on sides at each end, aligned with name 18" keystone, with PRR centered on sides 12" keystone, with number on end doors P5b - 1937 no upper body marker lights when rebuilt Futura "PENNSYLVANIA" on sides (lettering is smaller, blockier than P5a modifieds - appears to be 8-9") 18" keystone, with number centered on sides 12" keystone, with number on end doors early '40s repainted to P5/P5a boxcab standard, exact date? P5a modified 1935-early '40s latest photo 1940 Futura "PENNSYLVANIA" and locomotive numbers on lower (black) side band (letters/numbers are larger, thinner than P5b - appear to be 10-11") 12" keystone, with number centered on sides (all other classes had 18") 12" keystone, with number on end doors "oval pinstripe" - lower part horizontal, ends radiused, upper part follows body contour. A thin gold stripe along bottom of the body, turning down across nose to stop at pilot on either side of coupler. 3 pinstripes trailing number boards - middle stripe longer early '40s to scrapping earliest photo - 1945 Modified Block "PENNSYLVANIA" (round P & S) in black band on lower sides Large numbers on sides at each end, aligned with name 18" keystone, with PRR on sides between the door and window 12" keystone, with number on end doors Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:22:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines From: "Jerry Britton" >From: "Bill Bigler" >To: >Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines >Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999, 11:53 AM > > I also thought there was a K-4s in Strasburg. Yes, there is. #1361 is at Steamtown, being restored for running service for return to the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum. #3750 is at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, in Strassburg. She is restored cosmetically but will likely never run again. Hence the road numbers Bachmann picked for their Spectrum series Pacifics...the only two PRR K-4s's to survive! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:29:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Will S-E Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines The GG1's belong to the Leatherstocking Chapther NRHS. On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, Bill Bigler wrote: >There is also a G-5s in Strasburg, and there used to be a couple really beat >GG-1's near Oneonta NY on the D&H. I'm not sure whether they're still >there. I also thought there was a K-4s in Strasburg. > >Bill Bigler >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII > >-----Original Message----- >From: NDBPRR@aol.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 10:13 AM >Subject: [PRR] Pennsy engines > > >>Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. >>A5s - Strasburg >>B6sb - Strasburg >>D16sb - Strasburg >>E-6 - Strasburg >>G5s - Long Island? >>H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg >>I-1 Buffalo >>K4s - Scranton >>M1b - Strasburg >>GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. >Louis, >>Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL >>P5a - St Louis >>GP9 - Horseshoe Curve >>Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial >>train?) >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:41:50 -0400 There is also the "Rueben Wells" (i think that is what it is called and spelled). This unique engine was built for the Madison, Indiana PRR line the steep grade (approx. 6% grade) out of the Ohio River valley. This engine is currently in the Indianapolis Children's Museum and is in excellent condition. I think that it was built in the 1890's but I am not sure. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 11:04 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines >Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. >P5a - St Louis To pick a nit, this loco, #4700, is not a P5a, but one of the two prototype P5 locomotives...no P5a, boxcab or modified were saved from the torch. Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:14:03 -0400 Just a bit of a nit-pick. The engine at St. Louis Museum of Transport is 4700, a P-5, not P-5a. There are no P-5a's preserved. Principal difference is the marker lights at the top. Don't ask me why they gave the 4701 a different class. I don't know, but maybe somebody DOES know? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 10:17 AM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy engines >Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. >A5s - Strasburg >B6sb - Strasburg >D16sb - Strasburg >E-6 - Strasburg >G5s - Long Island? >H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg >I-1 Buffalo >K4s - Scranton >M1b - Strasburg >GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. Louis, >Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL >P5a - St Louis >GP9 - Horseshoe Curve >Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial >train?) > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:14:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines There are two G5s's located on Long Island. Nbr. 35, soon to be located at Oyster Bay, and Nbr. 39, located near the Railway station at Riverhead. Both are in a lengthy restoration process. Also, I believe that there is a DD1 in the Museum at Strasburg. Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 9/22/99 10:15:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << Subj: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: 9/22/99 10:15:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: NDBPRR@aol.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. G5s - Long Island? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:31:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Feeder Lines - EBT Announcement On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: > The current tourist operation is centered in the EBT's Orbisonia Station, > approx. 11 miles south of Mt. Union on US 522. Trains operate on a 5-mile > segment of the original mainline. The EBT operated as a common carrier from > 1874 thru 1956. Originally built as infrastructure for an iron making firm, > the EBT was essentially coal feeder to the PRR after 1910. Besides its > gauge and longevity, one of the major features that make the EBT unique is > its large fleet of steel rolling stock, most of which consisted of > all-steel, 3-bay hoppers rolling on Vulcan trucks. Most of the more than > 300 steel hoppers survive, stored in the railroad's main yards in Mt. Union > and Rockhill (adjacent to the Orbisonia Station). Don't forget that one can explore a lot of the EBT line on one's own. Plus the Mount Union yard is being cleared for use by the Mount Union Connecting Railroad. By now the EBT yard should be connected to the United States rail system once again. And there is the new dual gauge crossing where the new Route 522 bypass meets up with the old part of 522 just south of town, which is also the southern end of the yard. There's plenty to see! Patrick ============================================================================ When I was in school, I cheated on my metaphysics exam: I looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. -- Woody Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 10:09:20 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines List, What about the L-1 2-8-2 and the E7s 4-4-2 at Strasburg? Isn't there also a 6 wheel electric switcher at Strasburg? Doug NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. > A5s - Strasburg > B6sb - Strasburg > D16sb - Strasburg > E-6 - Strasburg > G5s - Long Island? > H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg > I-1 Buffalo > K4s - Scranton > M1b - Strasburg > GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. Louis, > Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL > P5a - St Louis > GP9 - Horseshoe Curve > Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial > train?) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:03:09 -0400 Isn't there a turn of the century (2-10-0 possibly) in the roundhouse at the Baltimore Rail Museum? I'm not sure of its nomenclature but I'm pretty sure there is a PRR engine there. > -----Original Message----- > From: Silver Pines Farm [SMTP:stueart@ior.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 1:09 PM > To: NDBPRR@aol.com > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines > > List, > > What about the L-1 2-8-2 and the E7s 4-4-2 at Strasburg? Isn't there > also > a 6 wheel electric switcher at Strasburg? > > Doug > > NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > > > Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? > Thanks. > > A5s - Strasburg > > B6sb - Strasburg > > D16sb - Strasburg > > E-6 - Strasburg > > G5s - Long Island? > > H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg > > I-1 Buffalo > > K4s - Scranton > > M1b - Strasburg > > GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. > Louis, > > Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL > > P5a - St Louis > > GP9 - Horseshoe Curve > > Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial > > train?) > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:12:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Patrick James Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines List, don't forget about the K4s at Strasburg. Patrick ============================================================================ When I was in school, I cheated on my metaphysics exam: I looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. -- Woody Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: [PRR] L1 can motor Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:50:25 -0400 Has anyone replaced the DC-71 open frame motor in a Bowser L1 with a can motor? If so, what kind/make of motor did you use? what special, if any, alterations, modifications, brackets, etc did you have to make/buy to get it to work right? Also do you have any approximate $$ of the new motor? Thanks, Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: L1 Can Motor Kris, When I was running Bowser Locos I used Sagami's 1630 single shaft motors. You have to buy the appropriate bushings to mount the large Bowser worm gear or replace that with NWSL worm and axle gear. I am not sure at this time what those part numbers are. I used to use silicone to mount the motor. Worked for me. You could always build a bracket but thats more work.I suppose you are looking at about $40.00? these days to convert one to a Sagami powered Loco......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re:Re; L1 Motor Kris, Whoops, I forgot about that new company Helix Helper. They make conversions for Bowser Locos now. Not sure if there is one for the L1 yet. They just drop right in, at least that is what I heard......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:26:48 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: QUICK trip to Philadelphia, PA Ted, I have heard the same thing about the B&O. There is supposed to be an agreement with the City of Philadelphia. That park along the river has been in the works for a long time. With the split of CONRAIL, it is possible since the railroad can be eliminated. The B&O/Reading from Bellmont to Eastside would be unnecessary. However, I believe the proposed Schuylkill Valley Light Rail Line would use the part of this segment. Dave At 12:06 PM 9/22/1999 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Dave, >I live along the old B&O line near the Art Museum in Philly. I love >watching the trains go by. I have heard rumors that the High Line will see >more traffic and the B&O line less. I have also heard that the B&O line is >to be torn up to make way for a park along the Schuylkill in Center City. >Say it isn't so! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: L1 Can Motor Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:28:24 -0400 If I replace the Bowser motor with a can motor only and not replace the worm gear and axle gear will I still get a noticible improvement in operation? will the noise level diminish? I'd prefer not to replace the axle gear since that will force me to disassemble the valve gear, or at least a good portion of it. Comments anyone.... > -----Original Message----- > From: mittner@webtv.net [SMTP:mittner@webtv.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 4:06 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Re: L1 Can Motor > > Kris, > > When I was running Bowser Locos I used Sagami's 1630 single shaft > motors. You have to buy the appropriate bushings to mount the large > Bowser worm gear or replace that with NWSL worm and axle gear. I am not > sure at this time what those part numbers are. I used to use silicone to > mount the motor. Worked for me. You could always build a bracket but > thats more work.I suppose you are looking at about $40.00? these days to > convert one to a Sagami powered Loco......Gary > > > > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:44:49 -0400 There used to be an ancient PRR 0-6-0 at Williams Grove, south of Harrisburg. Thought somebody even made it operational. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Kollar, Kris To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 3:10 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy engines >Isn't there a turn of the century (2-10-0 possibly) in the roundhouse at the >Baltimore Rail Museum? I'm not sure of its nomenclature but I'm pretty sure >there is a PRR engine there. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Silver Pines Farm [SMTP:stueart@ior.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 1:09 PM >> To: NDBPRR@aol.com >> Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines >> >> List, >> >> What about the L-1 2-8-2 and the E7s 4-4-2 at Strasburg? Isn't there >> also >> a 6 wheel electric switcher at Strasburg? >> >> Doug >> >> NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: >> > >> > Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? >> Thanks. >> > A5s - Strasburg >> > B6sb - Strasburg >> > D16sb - Strasburg >> > E-6 - Strasburg >> > G5s - Long Island? >> > H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg >> > I-1 Buffalo >> > K4s - Scranton >> > M1b - Strasburg >> > GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. >> Louis, >> > Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL >> > P5a - St Louis >> > GP9 - Horseshoe Curve >> > Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial >> > train?) >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 can motor Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 04:56:28 -0400 Kris, Do yourself a favor and get the Helix ......#144-130000 for the K4 & L1 price 46.95 from Walthers, could be cheaper from Jerry's Merchandise Service ! I have it in mine and the L1 never ran so good. Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > From: Kollar, Kris > To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: [PRR] L1 can motor > Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 3:50 PM > > Has anyone replaced the DC-71 open frame motor in a Bowser L1 with a can > motor? If so, what kind/make of motor did you use? what special, if any, > alterations, modifications, brackets, etc did you have to make/buy to get it > to work right? Also do you have any approximate $$ of the new motor? > > Thanks, > Kris > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 05:00:33 -0400 Yes Sir, The engine runs at different times during the year, And sometimes they will let you run the engine, after some instruction on how to run a steam engine. I have not been up to see it this year but I was on her last year. Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ---------- > From: Bill Volkmer > To: Kollar, Kris ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines > Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 4:44 PM > > There used to be an ancient PRR 0-6-0 at Williams Grove, south of > Harrisburg. Thought somebody even made it operational. > > Bill V. > -----Original Message----- > From: Kollar, Kris > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 3:10 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy engines > > > >Isn't there a turn of the century (2-10-0 possibly) in the roundhouse at > the > >Baltimore Rail Museum? I'm not sure of its nomenclature but I'm pretty > sure > >there is a PRR engine there. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Silver Pines Farm [SMTP:stueart@ior.com] > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 1:09 PM > >> To: NDBPRR@aol.com > >> Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > >> Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines > >> > >> List, > >> > >> What about the L-1 2-8-2 and the E7s 4-4-2 at Strasburg? Isn't there > >> also > >> a 6 wheel electric switcher at Strasburg? > >> > >> Doug > >> > >> NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > >> > > >> > Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? > >> Thanks. > >> > A5s - Strasburg > >> > B6sb - Strasburg > >> > D16sb - Strasburg > >> > E-6 - Strasburg > >> > G5s - Long Island? > >> > H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg > >> > I-1 Buffalo > >> > K4s - Scranton > >> > M1b - Strasburg > >> > GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. > >> Louis, > >> > Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL > >> > P5a - St Louis > >> > GP9 - Horseshoe Curve > >> > Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial > >> > train?) > >> > > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >> > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Engines List, Lets not forget about the Narrow Gauge Loco of the old Washington and Waynesburg RR. Oh yeah, and how about the numerous locos in our basements? Does that count for something? http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Railfest '99 Reminder Hello to all, Just over a week left before Railfest '99. So far, about a dozen of us are excursioning together on Sat afternoon and having dinner Saturday evening. If there is anyone planning to go who wants to get in on the group activities, and hasn't yet contacted me, please send me a direct e-mail at chaslett@cse.L-3Com.com so that we know to expect you. Also, excursion tickets are going fast, so call the Museum at 1-888-4-ALTOONA to order the main 'fest ticket and the separate ticket for the 1:05 excursion on Saturday, if you are going and want to be in with the 'Talkers. I'll be sending those who responded the details on meeting for the excursion once they are finalized. Drew has already posted the dinner details. Carl ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PDB1854@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:18:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfest '99 Reminder Hello to all! Railfest excursion tickets are still available in good supply but beginning to move fast. The Saturday 1:05 excursion has over 100 seats left. We have, of course, an unlimited supply of festival tickets. Those considering not attending this year might want to revisit that thought. Railfest is by no means a guaranteed event with respect to the participation of NS. Indications are that NS may not participate with the open shops in the future. With the addition of the Hollidaysburg Car Shops this year, you might want to take advantage of a "sure" thing. Tickets can be ordered by calling the Museum at (888) 425-8666 from 8:45am to 5pm daily -- including this weekend. Thanks and hope to see you there! Peter Barton Executive Director ARMM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jimy6b@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:51:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Sorry. I meant to say there is also a K4 at Strasburg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:13:40 -0700 -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 7:14 AM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy engines >Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. >A5s - Strasburg >B6sb - Strasburg There is also a B6sa floating around somewhere...but I don't know where it is now (the PRRT&HS attempted to acquire it some years ago, but the deal fell through) >D16sb - Strasburg >E-6 - Strasburg as well as a E7 (7001) >G5s - Long Island? Two ex-LI G5's are still with us, as well as an ex-PRR one at Strasburg. >H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg If I recall right...there are an H3, H6sb and an H9s there. >I-1 Buffalo >K4s - Scranton The 3750 has at Strasburg already been accounted for. >M1b - Strasburg >GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. Louis, >Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL >P5a - St Louis >GP9 - Horseshoe Curve >Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial >train?) I also think that a DD-1 set is lurking around the east somewhere... and the Blue Mountain and Reading (?) had a couple of ex-PRR (well...if they aren't they oughta be!) E-8's...but at least one has been disposed of (boo! hiss!) And there are probably others floating around in various places... Bill Daniels Tucson AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Re; L1 Motor Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:17:31 -0700 It's out...I've had one for a couple of years now for my Bowser L1s...but it's not exactly a drop in. But it is nice. BTW, I understand that NWSL no longer lists Sagami motors... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: L1 Can Motor Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:20:06 -0700 Save yourself the grief...go with the Alco Models/Helix Humper. While it is not a drop in, it is comparably priced with the equivalent Sagami (if you can still get one) and is pretty much complete...it even has a flywheel. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Kollar, Kris To: 'mittner@webtv.net' Cc: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 1:38 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: L1 Can Motor >If I replace the Bowser motor with a can motor only and not replace the worm >gear and axle gear will I still get a noticible improvement in operation? >will the noise level diminish? I'd prefer not to replace the axle gear >since that will force me to disassemble the valve gear, or at least a good >portion of it. > >Comments anyone.... > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mittner@webtv.net [SMTP:mittner@webtv.net] >> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 4:06 PM >> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: [PRR] Re: L1 Can Motor >> >> Kris, >> >> When I was running Bowser Locos I used Sagami's 1630 single shaft >> motors. You have to buy the appropriate bushings to mount the large >> Bowser worm gear or replace that with NWSL worm and axle gear. I am not >> sure at this time what those part numbers are. I used to use silicone to >> mount the motor. Worked for me. You could always build a bracket but >> thats more work.I suppose you are looking at about $40.00? these days to >> convert one to a Sagami powered Loco......Gary >> >> >> >> >> http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jimy6b@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:47:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines There is also a K4 at Stroudsburg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:52:22 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Kris' L1s and noise issues on repower kits Hello Kris and the list, I went back to the pictures of your L1s on the RPM web page tonight, and I noticed that your L1s has Bowser's old boiler casting with the cast in air pump and tanks. In your case, this is not a bad thing, as the model when completed looks to be spectacular! I'll be using your photos and advice as a guide when I build my model of L1s 520. If I may suggest, perhaps after you finish the L1s, turn your talents to an M1b. You might, however, have a little grinding to do on the inside of the boiler (as mentioned in my previous post) because the old L1s/K4s boiler casting is somewhat thicker than the new one if you go with an Alco Products repower kit. I also forgot to metion that the Alco Products K4s repower kit will work with a Bowser-chassis Spectrum K4s. I bought the first Spectrum K4s and when the chassis committed suicide in a spectacular fashion, I got the Bowser chassis for it. Somewhat later, I fit the repower kit into the engine, which fit well, with one minor snag. I had to grind away a fair fraction of the boiler weight to clear the worm gear/flywheel. It would have been easier to slice the weight in half at the workbench, but my K4s was already assembled, with the weight held in place with Goo.. As far as noise goes, my quietest conversion ever was a NWSL 142-6 gearbox and Sagami 1630 can motor in a Bowser G5s chassis. However, the engine in question is quite slow (despite my using the 27:1 vs 36:1 gearing) and doesn't lug as well as the slightly louder Alco Products-equipped engines. In my experience, any repower kit is quieter than a DC71. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 22:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Cary Boiler. PRR Modeler List, I have a question about a long out of production Cary Boiler. Back when I started out in modeling, (mid 70's), I started out with Bowser Locos. I did some research on the locos I was modeling at that time and used old Model Railroader and other mags for information. One day way back then I seen an ad for Cary Boilers. They made a handful of PRR boilers that would fit on Penn-Line/Bowser and other company chassis. Off the top of my head I think they made Boilers for an N1, M1a, I1 and a K-28/29 Boiler and possibly more. At one time or another I have owned the M1a and the I1 and passed up on buying the N1. I have never actualy seen the K-28/29 Boiler but knew at one time there was someone listing one in an old issue of the Keystone (Snapper). It was sold by the time I made contact with the seller. Has anyone ever seen one or more importantly, does anyone on this list have one they would like to sale? I would like to get my hands dirty again by attempting to build this seldom modeled Loco.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:12:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] Passenger car numbers Maybe Bill Volkmer cab answer this question but was there any rhyme or reason to the PRR passenger car numbers particularly the P70 coaches? I have never seen a list of car types and numbers. Does anybody have one available? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] "Merchandise Announce" List Date: Thu, 23 Sep 99 06:15:28 -0400 From: Jerry What follows is the most recent post to the "Merchandise Announce" list. I wanted to include it so those not on the list could see what it looks like. This is an "announcement only" list...you cannot post to it or respond to posts. It is used by Merchandise Service to notify users of new products, product specials, etc. It typically sees anywhere from one post every two weeks to as many as two per week. To subscribe, send the message "subscribe MerchandiseAnnounce" to "listserv@dsop.com" REMEMBER: Your purchases through "Merchandise Service" directly fund operating costs of the DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM public services. ============(clip)==================== Make "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions, your source for model railroad products. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- All products HO unless otherwise noted. MONTHLY SPECIAL -- WESTERFIELD -- LAST CALL -- By customer's choice, September is "Westerfield Month". All Westerfield products are 20% off! DIGITAL IMAGE WORKS The new "Pennsy Army-Navy Games: 1955-1965" video is in stock! RED CABOOSE The X29's with the 1928 body and dreadnaught ends in Circle Keystone livery is now in stock! A new run of 12 numbers of the PRR "Merchandise Service" X-29's is now available. N Scale: Red Caboose will be doing re-runs of the X-29 in Circle Keystone and in Railway Express Agency. They will also be doing, for the first time ever, the X-29 with the "Buy War Bonds" slogan. Each run will have 12 road numbers available. Advance Reservations are being accepted in the eStore! RAILWORKS (brass) The Clearance Car, a one of a kind car on the PRR, is due in sometime next month. There are only 11 fully painted cars remaining available on the importer's Advance Reservation list. There are only 2 unpainted cars remaining. You may place an Advance Reservation via our eStore. ONLINE SHOPPING For complete details, ordering, etc., please see http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Remember, your purchases through "Merchandise Service" supports the "Keystone Crossings" web site and the many railroad lists served by the DSOP.COM listserv. Thank you for your support! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, president jbritton@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. Apple-authorized Value Added Reseller http://www.dsop.com "Merchandise Service" model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this list, send the message "unsubscribe MerchandiseAnnounce" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:30:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines The reference to the ex-PRR 0-6-0 at Williams Grove is correct. While I do not have the engine number 'at-my-ready', this particular 0-6-0, I believe a B-6, is dramatically featured in the opening and closing segments of the film presented to visitors at Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum (also available on video tape). The impact in the film as presented at ARMM is such, with stereo surround sound, that one feels it is a mighty K-4 rushing down the right-of-way. David Seidel, Altoona ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ogarasteam@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:37:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Re; L1 Motor They run fantastic. They make one for almost every engine PennLine and Bowser made. Enen a double unit for a T-1 that runs like a dream Joe O'Gara ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Engines Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:05:16 -0400 Isn't GP-9 7000 running on one of the New Jersey shortlines and how about the GP-9 at the Curve? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Engines List, Lets not forget about the Narrow Gauge Loco of the old Washington and Waynesburg RR. Oh yeah, and how about the numerous locos in our basements? Does that count for something? http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car numbers Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:17:06 -0400 I can't give you a definitive answer but I am sure Mr. Wayner or other publication has the whole roster. The coaches appear to have been numbered in blocks when they were built such as the P-85s in the 4000 and 4100s, the P70fbrs in the 1600-1734 group etc. The big problem came from the fact that the coaches were built, then rebuilt, then modified, then rebuilt, and each time they took a few coaches out of the group, modified and renumberd them and then left the others in service in the old configuration. A good example is the last group of rebuilds in the 1965-66 era where they took some of the P-70fbr cars from the 1600 series and gave them arch roofs and reclining seats and started numbering them in the low 3800 series. Another example of this of course would be the MU fleet where they largely kept the same number but were vastly reconfigured. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 11:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Passenger car numbers >Maybe Bill Volkmer cab answer this question but was there any rhyme or reason >to the PRR passenger car numbers particularly the P70 coaches? I have never >seen a list of car types and numbers. Does anybody have one available? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:30:20 -0400 From: jpbtrans Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR in Illinois A question for the list, I'am planning,(one of many) to model the Pennsy in the State of Illinois, from the Indiana line to St. Louis. On any given day, what would be the number of trains I could expect to see there? Mail trains? Passenger? Any information would be useful. Thank-you, Jon (jpbtrans@gateway.net) Jim Six wrote: > > Hello Jon, > > Nice to hear from you and thanks for your kind words. I have one PRR diesel > left -- a Kato GP35 that I detailed and painted as PRR 2274 I am looking > into trading or selling it. Attached is a picture of this model. If you or > anybody that you know might be interested in acquiring this model, let me > know. > > I will be pout of town in North Carolina at a Southeastern modelers meet at > Raleigh this weekend. Plan on there being about 500 prototype models on > display there! > > Jim Six > > -----Original Message----- > From: jpbtrans > To: jimsix@ncweb.com > Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 10:46 PM > Subject: Hello > > >Jim, > > > > I just wanted to say hello and how much I've enjoyed your articles. > >Even though I am not interested in Southeast roads, I still read them. > >You never know when you might come across something useful. I model the > >PRR (doesn't everyone). My timeframe for the layout ends on 12-31-65, so > >GP-35s are the newest thing going. > > > > Jon Anderson (jpbtrans@gateway.net) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Name: PRR GP35 2274 engr.jpg > PRR GP35 2274 engr.jpg Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > Encoding: base64 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Engines Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:40:46 -0400 I think that the Blue Mountain and Reading also has (or had) the PRR Doddlebug No. 4666. Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:herzog1@gate.net] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 7:05 AM To: Gary Mittner; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Engines Isn't GP-9 7000 running on one of the New Jersey shortlines and how about the GP-9 at the Curve? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Engines List, Lets not forget about the Narrow Gauge Loco of the old Washington and Waynesburg RR. Oh yeah, and how about the numerous locos in our basements? Does that count for something? http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: Pennsy Engines. List, Didn't I see pictures of a newly painted PRR GP30 in the museum at Strasburg, #2333? Lets see who can come up with the most obscure loco that survives to this day that has Pennsy heritage. So far I think it has to be the Ruben Wells with a close second being the Washington and Waynesburg Narrow Gauge. Isn't that PRR 0-6-0 that is running a class B-4 and not a B-6?. Any Santa Fe 2-10-4's still out there on display somewhere that the Pennsy leased?......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PRR in Illinois Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:12:30 -0400 You should name the time period because the volume varied with time. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: jpbtrans To: Jim Six ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 9:29 AM Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR in Illinois >A question for the list, > > I'am planning,(one of many) to model the Pennsy in the State of >Illinois, from the Indiana line to St. Louis. On any given day, what >would be the number of trains I could expect to see there? Mail trains? >Passenger? Any information would be useful. > >Thank-you, > >Jon (jpbtrans@gateway.net) > >Jim Six wrote: >> >> Hello Jon, >> >> Nice to hear from you and thanks for your kind words. I have one PRR diesel >> left -- a Kato GP35 that I detailed and painted as PRR 2274 I am looking >> into trading or selling it. Attached is a picture of this model. If you or >> anybody that you know might be interested in acquiring this model, let me >> know. >> >> I will be pout of town in North Carolina at a Southeastern modelers meet at >> Raleigh this weekend. Plan on there being about 500 prototype models on >> display there! >> >> Jim Six >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jpbtrans >> To: jimsix@ncweb.com >> Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 10:46 PM >> Subject: Hello >> >> >Jim, >> > >> > I just wanted to say hello and how much I've enjoyed your articles. >> >Even though I am not interested in Southeast roads, I still read them. >> >You never know when you might come across something useful. I model the >> >PRR (doesn't everyone). My timeframe for the layout ends on 12-31-65, so >> >GP-35s are the newest thing going. >> > >> > Jon Anderson (jpbtrans@gateway.net) >> > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- - >> >> Name: PRR GP35 2274 engr.jpg >> PRR GP35 2274 engr.jpg Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) >> Encoding: base64 > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-9s and other trivia. Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:16:17 -0400 I checked and the 7000 is at Cape May, NJ and the West Chester Railroad has one too, but my source couldn't remember the number. BTW. I hear that Floyd has totally wiped out the Wilmington and Western (little B&O lingo there). At least two bridges and several furlongs of track, GONE! Will be interesting to see if FEMA comes to their rescue. There are at least two coaches being completely rebuilt at Steamtown from Florida using FEMA money from Hurricane Andrew in August 1992 so there IS hope. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 10:07 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Pennsy Engines. List, Didn't I see pictures of a newly painted PRR GP30 in the museum at Strasburg, #2333? Lets see who can come up with the most obscure loco that survives to this day that has Pennsy heritage. So far I think it has to be the Ruben Wells with a close second being the Washington and Waynesburg Narrow Gauge. Isn't that PRR 0-6-0 that is running a class B-4 and not a B-6?. Any Santa Fe 2-10-4's still out there on display somewhere that the Pennsy leased?......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Last-minute Availability Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:53:08 -0400 We just had a last-minute cancellation for Friday & Saturday (9/24 & 9/25/99) at The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP. For those of you not familiar with our RAILFAN BED & BREAKFAST, see our website: . Just in the last two hours, we have seen eastbound on CSX a back-to-back pair of shiny BNSF wide-cabs in the Great Northern colors, an ex-N&W (still in black) Helms Leasing GE, and (in both directions) a myriad of CSX power as their trains come rolling past our backyard at an ever-increasing rate. NS/ex-Conrail continues to have tremendous problems operationally, but the trains DO eventually come past in full view just across the adjacent Beaver River. Together, the two mainline railroads put about 150 trains past The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP every 24 hours. And you can watch/photograph them from our Porch, our new "breakfast bar," or your room! We're only 15 minutes from Conway Yard and less than that from some super photo-locations. E-mail us off-list for additional information. The fall foliage is just barely beginning to show its beautiful colors. Nights are cold, but days are running 70's and sun. First reservation gets the suddenly-available room. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:14:30 -0400 From: jpbtrans Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PRR in Illinois Bill, Sorry about that! I'am looking at 1963-65. No later then Dec. 1965 Jon (jpbtrans@gateway.net) Bill Volkmer wrote: > > You should name the time period because the volume varied with time. > > Bill V. > -----Original Message----- > From: jpbtrans > To: Jim Six ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 9:29 AM > Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR in Illinois > > >A question for the list, > > > > I'am planning,(one of many) to model the Pennsy in the State of > >Illinois, from the Indiana line to St. Louis. On any given day, what > >would be the number of trains I could expect to see there? Mail trains? > >Passenger? Any information would be useful. > > > >Thank-you, > > > >Jon (jpbtrans@gateway.net) > > > >Jim Six wrote: > >> > >> Hello Jon, > >> > >> Nice to hear from you and thanks for your kind words. I have one PRR > diesel > >> left -- a Kato GP35 that I detailed and painted as PRR 2274 I am looking > >> into trading or selling it. Attached is a picture of this model. If you > or > >> anybody that you know might be interested in acquiring this model, let me > >> know. > >> > >> I will be pout of town in North Carolina at a Southeastern modelers meet > at > >> Raleigh this weekend. Plan on there being about 500 prototype models on > >> display there! > >> > >> Jim Six > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: jpbtrans > >> To: jimsix@ncweb.com > >> Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 10:46 PM > >> Subject: Hello > >> > >> >Jim, > >> > > >> > I just wanted to say hello and how much I've enjoyed your articles. > >> >Even though I am not interested in Southeast roads, I still read them. > >> >You never know when you might come across something useful. I model the > >> >PRR (doesn't everyone). My timeframe for the layout ends on 12-31-65, so > >> >GP-35s are the newest thing going. > >> > > >> > Jon Anderson (jpbtrans@gateway.net) > >> > > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >> > >> Name: PRR GP35 2274 engr.jpg > >> PRR GP35 2274 engr.jpg Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > >> Encoding: base64 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:23:13 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Rail Fest Diner Reservations as of 9/23/99 Greetings to the group, Here is the list of those I have received a confirmation from for the 7:30 PM Saturday, October 2, 1999 dinner get together at the Altoona Hoss's. (Valley View Blvd at 7th Street - Altoona) Drew McGhee Michael Wingard +3 David Gnuse +3 Bill Bigler Dennis Sautters Carl Haslett +7 Rich Copeland Please let me know if you're are planning to come to dinner or if there are any mistakes. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: [PRR] Re: Pennsy Engines. Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:39:05 -0400 Everyone knows Gary sings to the tune of steam, but I'll make my bet that the most obscure PRR relic is that '56 Chevy bus thing they called the Aerotrain. The thing ran like hell and was on the only around for a year by way of a demo contract(?)with GM. We've talked on and off about this rare but distinctive bird...What was the train number that the Aerotrain ran? After the company chose not pursue it, did it go directly to IC run awhile? There were two train sets, one with the PRR and the other with NYC, then both went to the mid west...to IC? How did they get to where they are today? The Ruben Wells really is not as obscure for steam locos from that period shared many "styling" similarities. The 'Wells had a very distinctive function and performed it to the admiration of the management of that time. One could argue that the John Bull is as obscure as any locomotive saved from PRR service. Gary temps us to think of the obscure...Not too long ago, I saw a gas-electric modified to work under the wires at the Amtrak MofW facility in Odenton, MD. Painted still in its MofW scheme, sporting the trolley wire lift on top. I'd like to think that unit still exists, but I seriously doubt it. Maybe someone close to Odenton may know. Later... C.Conan Evans Director of Network Technologies Online Securities, Inc 13921 Park Center Road Herndon, Virginia 20171 703.234.1502   fax 703.234.1551 < cevans@onlinesecurities.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gary > Mittner > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 9:01 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Re: Pennsy Engines. > > > List, > > Didn't I see pictures of a newly painted PRR GP30 in the museum at > Strasburg, #2333? Lets see who can come up with the most obscure loco > that survives to this day that has Pennsy heritage. So far I think it > has to be the Ruben Wells with a close second being the Washington and > Waynesburg Narrow Gauge. Isn't that PRR 0-6-0 that is running a class > B-4 and not a B-6?. Any Santa Fe 2-10-4's still out there on display > somewhere that the Pennsy leased?......Gary > > > > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:05:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Pennsy Engines. > We've talked on and off about this rare but distinctive bird...What was the > train number that the Aerotrain ran? After the company chose not pursue it, > did it go directly to IC run awhile? There were two train sets, one with > the PRR and the other with NYC, then both went to the mid west...to IC? How > did they get to where they are today? They went to the Rock Island, actually. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 14:43:44 -0400 HI all, There are a bunch of ex PRR E units still around. Of course most are masquerading as other railroads engines! URHS here in NJ has two E8's, one in Erie paint and one I think still in NJDOT paint. Also, I forget where but there is a Lackawanna painted E8 that's also a PRR unit. There's a link off of Jerry's site to another site that lists most of the preserved E8's. About 10 or so are PRR. I'm pretty sure that Bennet Levin has an ex PRR switcher in Phillia.. No one mentioned the B1 at Strasburg. The DD1's there also. Also the 44 tonner at the Strasburg RR. One of the most obscure PRR related engine is the amusement park train at Lakemont part in Altoona. It was painted (and I seem to remember built) by the PRR shop forces in Altoona. It's a steamer (gas powered really) that looks like a streamlined K4. It's trainset is even lettered with PRR scotchlite decals! They have a new train so it just sits in the station but it looks cool! At the end of the run they even have "ponyshoe curve" as their turnaround! A list of the steamers surviving is on my web site http://prr.railfan.net That's all I can think of for now... Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines > >-----Original Message----- >From: NDBPRR@aol.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 7:14 AM >Subject: [PRR] Pennsy engines > > >>Here is a list of PRR engines I know about are there any others? Thanks. >>A5s - Strasburg >>B6sb - Strasburg > >There is also a B6sa floating around somewhere...but I don't know where it >is now (the PRRT&HS attempted to acquire it some years ago, but the deal >fell through) >>D16sb - Strasburg >>E-6 - Strasburg >as well as a E7 (7001) >>G5s - Long Island? >Two ex-LI G5's are still with us, as well as an ex-PRR one at Strasburg. >>H1, H2, H8 - Strasburg >If I recall right...there are an H3, H6sb and an H9s there. >>I-1 Buffalo >>K4s - Scranton >The 3750 has at Strasburg already been accounted for. >>M1b - Strasburg >>GG1's - Strasburg, Harrisburg, Elkhart, Baltimore,Dallas, Altoona, St. >Louis, >>Roanoke, Syracuse, Scranton, Marshallton DE, Union, IL >>P5a - St Louis >>GP9 - Horseshoe Curve >>Aerotrain - 1 in St Louis, 1 in Green Bay ( which one was the PRR trial >>train?) > >I also think that a DD-1 set is lurking around the east somewhere... >and the Blue Mountain and Reading (?) had a couple of ex-PRR (well...if they >aren't they oughta be!) E-8's...but at least one has been disposed of (boo! >hiss!) > >And there are probably others floating around in various places... > >Bill Daniels >Tucson AZ > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:01:59 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 23 Sep, "Rob Schoenberg" wrote: > There are a bunch of ex PRR E units still around. Of course most are > masquerading as other railroads engines! URHS here in NJ has two E8's, one > in Erie paint and one I think still in NJDOT paint. Also, I forget where > but there is a Lackawanna painted E8 that's also a PRR unit. There's a link > off of Jerry's site to another site that lists most of the preserved E8's. > About 10 or so are PRR. Two of the three Conrail (now CSX) business train locos are nee-PRR, ex-Amtrak, which added HEP and removed the portholes. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:20:23 -0400 Of course we must mention that the tell tale spotter feature on a Pennsy E unit is the lifting lugs on the nose. There was even an ex-PRR E-8 used as a dentists office in Spokane Washington a few years ago. I have a slide of it. I believe it was painted in SP colors. I think the only other railroad that had the lifting lugs was the Santa Fe. Before you ask. I have one photo I took of an F-7 with the lifting cables attached being lifted up and as I remember it, it was taken on the beloved Elmira Branch. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Rockwell To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines >On 23 Sep, "Rob Schoenberg" wrote: > >> There are a bunch of ex PRR E units still around. Of course most are >> masquerading as other railroads engines! URHS here in NJ has two E8's, one >> in Erie paint and one I think still in NJDOT paint. Also, I forget where >> but there is a Lackawanna painted E8 that's also a PRR unit. There's a link >> off of Jerry's site to another site that lists most of the preserved E8's. >> About 10 or so are PRR. > >Two of the three Conrail (now CSX) business train locos are >nee-PRR, ex-Amtrak, which added HEP and removed the >portholes. > >Dennis > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] Herald King Decals Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:19:57 -0400 PRR Gize: As most of you know, Herald King, a HO scale decal manufacturer, has ceased operations. I am looking for the PRR decal set for the 50 foot gondola (G-31). I am looking for 2 to 3 sets. I believe Harold King's stock number is G-1800. Does anyone know of any hobby shops that still have these in stock? If any of you have this decal set in your personal collection and are willing to part with them, please contact me off list. Thank you in advance! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Lift Rings Bill, Speaking of lift rings, was the Pennsy and the Santa Fe the only road to have these nose lift rings originally? There is an Ex- Milwuakee Road F-7 in my area that has these also. I am assuming this is not an ex-PRR or ATSF loco that the Milwuakee Road bought second handed. But one never knows.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:17:59 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Bill, Last time I was in town it was still there. I understand the dentist has retired and there is talk of getting rid of the E unit. It is painted a faded Daylight scheme but lettered Spokane International. Doug Bill Volkmer wrote: > > Of course we must mention that the tell tale spotter feature on a Pennsy E > unit is the lifting lugs on the nose. There was even an ex-PRR E-8 used as > a dentists office in Spokane Washington a few years ago. I have a slide of > it. I believe it was painted in SP colors. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 16:54:14 -0500 (CDT) From: padraice@megsinet.net Subject: [PRR] Obscurity (?) I'm not so sure that anything from the Pennsy that remains around today and still says Pennsy on it can really be obscure. The fact that it still exists makes it at least a little significant. However, there is, if I recall correctly, a Pennsy Brill Gas-Electric in one of the barns at Union, which if not obscure, at least seems to be a bit forgotten. I commuted for several years on the Aerotrains on the Rock Island. They had about a year of service on the Pennsy, and possibly another few months on the UP, but spent quite a few years between Chicago and Joliet on the Rock, crossing the Pennsy at Englewood, 91st St, and Wash Heights. I think the Pennsy probably would just as soon forget they had them. I remember the ride on the Rock was not so great - but by the end of service in '65, they were riding on steel coil springs, and that probably didn't help. Too, the four wheel cars had a tendency to hunt back and forth as they went down the Rock's somewhat less than perfectly maintained track. I never fully understood why they very seldom derailed. Pennsy's Aerotrains obscure? Hopefully! Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:21:44 -0400 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] Part for Westside M1a I would like to know if anyone knows where I could get a particular part for my Westside M1a. The box behind the stack, I believe its a feed water heater, is way out of scale on the model. I would like to find a correct replacement. I would appreciate any help. Thanks, Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR M1a waterheater Eric, When I built my Cary/Bowser PRR M1a I used Precision Scales part # 585-3478. It is a brass casting of the PRR type feedwater heater that you need. Are they still available? Check with your hobby shop.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:42:12 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Part for Westside M1a Hello Eric and the list, Try Bowser's p/n 70161, which is the portion of the Worthington FWH that sits behind the stack. My price lists says it's $.70 (ie zinc or pewter), and based on my viewing of photographs, looks to be to scale. Cary sells a complete Worthington FWH appropriate for K5 and M1a/b engines; it's their p/n 13-137 in brass; it costs $5.50. Hope this helps! Doug Eric Lauterbach wrote: > I would like to know if anyone knows where I could get a particular part > for my Westside M1a. The box behind the stack, I believe its a feed > water heater, is way out of scale on the model. I would like to find a > correct replacement. I would appreciate any help. > Thanks, > Eric Lauterbach > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:48:01 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car numbers Hello list, I ordered a copy of R.E. Colquitt's PRR Passenger Equipment Roster, October 1, 1954 (mine is copy 183) from Wahsatch Backshop, 412 Pine Avenue #1, Waynesboro, VA 22980-4744. It cost $20 plus $ 2 for shipping. It has every PRR (as opposed to cars leased back to Pullman for operation) owned passenger car, including the X29 express boxcars and the R50 reefers. I like it because it also lists the trucks under each car, making accurate models much easier. It has no photos, so it's best used in company with NJ International's PRR Heavyweight Passenger Car planbook, which has pictures and plans of the cars and trucks (or any other good photo reference book, like those from Morning Sun). Hope this helps! Doug NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > Maybe Bill Volkmer cab answer this question but was there any rhyme or reason > to the PRR passenger car numbers particularly the P70 coaches? I have never > seen a list of car types and numbers. Does anybody have one available? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:53:56 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy engines Hello list, B4a 643 was built by Altoona Machine Shops, c/n 2184, in June 1901. In April, 1917, she was sold to Central Iron and Steel Co., becoming their # 5. My source for this is Edson's PRR All-Time Steam Roster, page 167. She was reboilered in 1945 with a radial stay boiler. In 1961, when the steel plant was being demolished, she was found inside and rescued. Rob's PRR Page (Keystone Crossings has a link) has pictures from Rob's visit to William's Grove, PA, where the engine is occasionally steamed up. For the moment, she and the John Bull replica are the only operable PRR steamers (Hopefully, 2000 will see K4s 1361 under steam, and if we're really lucky, one or both of the LIRR G5s engines will be ready next year as well). Doug DWSNRHS@aol.com wrote: > The reference to the ex-PRR 0-6-0 at Williams Grove is correct. While I do > not have the engine number 'at-my-ready', this particular 0-6-0, I believe a > B-6, is dramatically featured in the opening and closing segments of the film > presented to visitors at Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum (also available > on video tape). The impact in the film as presented at ARMM is such, with > stereo surround sound, that one feels it is a mighty K-4 rushing down the > right-of-way. > > David Seidel, Altoona > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:58:01 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Engines Ted and the list, You're a small bit to the west of 4666's real owners, the Black River and Western Railroad in Flemington, NJ. When I was still living in New Jersey, I'd shun the 4666 because it wasn't a steam engine (I have become somewhat less parochial since then). I understand it has recently been rebuilt for continued service. Doug "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > I think that the Blue Mountain and Reading also has (or had) the PRR > Doddlebug No. 4666. > > Ted Andrews > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:herzog1@gate.net] > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 7:05 AM > To: Gary Mittner; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Engines > > Isn't GP-9 7000 running on one of the New Jersey shortlines and how about > the GP-9 at the Curve? > > Bill V. > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Mittner > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 5:40 PM > Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Engines > > List, > > Lets not forget about the Narrow Gauge Loco of the old Washington > and Waynesburg RR. Oh yeah, and how about the numerous locos in our > basements? Does that count for something? > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:06:46 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cary Boiler. Gary and the list, Bowser's current catalog lists on page 164 all of the Cary conversion boilers ever made. The K28 boiler was released in September 1967 and discontinued in September 1967. More recently, Model Railroading ran a series of articles in 1994/95 on converting a Spectrum K4s into a passable N&W E3 (nee PRR K3s). The short version of the five part series is that the conversion involved changing the cab, shortening the firebox and changing the trailing truck. To nitpick in the extreme, the K4s boiler has a much more pronounced taper than the nearly straight K2s/K3s boiler did. Perhaps you could do the same conversion, but go one step further and remove the belpaire firebox to come up with the K28s (or at least come much closer). As far as the K29/K29s, you could change the cab and remove the belpaire firebox on a Spectrum K4s (I suspect working with Bowser's zinc boiler would be rather more difficult). In the August 1977 Model Railroader, Tom Dressler had a short article about modelling the N&W E3/PRR K3s using the Cary boilers, but he didn't go into specifics about what the boiler was made of (probably lead) or how difficult it was to work with. I realize this is more than you probably wished for, but I hope this helps. Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > PRR Modeler List, > > I have a question about a long out of production Cary Boiler. Back > when I started out in modeling, (mid 70's), I started out with Bowser > Locos. I did some research on the locos I was modeling at that time and > used old Model Railroader and other mags for information. One day way > back then I seen an ad for Cary Boilers. They made a handful of PRR > boilers that would fit on Penn-Line/Bowser and other company chassis. > Off the top of my head I think they made Boilers for an N1, M1a, I1 and > a K-28/29 Boiler and possibly more. At one time or another I have > owned the M1a and the I1 and passed up on buying the N1. I have never > actualy seen the K-28/29 Boiler but knew at one time there was someone > listing one in an old issue of the Keystone (Snapper). It was sold by > the time I made contact with the seller. Has anyone ever seen one or > more importantly, does anyone on this list have one they would like to > sale? I would like to get my hands dirty again by attempting to build > this seldom modeled Loco.....Gary > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 19:15:18 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Addition of toe boards to PRR steam locomotive cabs Hello list, As I delve further into my photo books and web site pictures of PRR steam, I've come up with another question for the list. When, to the year and preferrably month, did the PRR start adding toe boards to steam engines? None of PRR's steamers up to and including the M1a were built with them. As near as I've been able to determine, the addition occured in the early 1930s; around 1932 or 1933. By the 1940s, all of the steamers appear to have toe boards. I'm speculating that this must have been an ICC regulation or order, because otherwise unimproved K4s engines running in the 30s with 70P70 series tenders and hand reverse have the toe boards (I'm guessing that PRR would have probably preferred to add mechanical lubricators, stokers, and larger tenders before adding the admittedly much cheaper toe boards). Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR K-28 Model Doug, I will wait for a Brass Model then if a Cary Boiler dosn't show up! I don't want to get my hands THAT dirty! Original reply: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cary Boiler. Gary and the list, Bowser's current catalog lists on page 164 all of the Cary conversion boilers ever made. The K28 boiler was released in September 1967 and discontinued in September 1967. More recently, Model Railroading ran a series of articles in 1994/95 on converting a Spectrum K4s into a passable N&W E3 (nee PRR K3s). The short version of the five part series is that the conversion involved changing the cab, shortening the firebox and changing the trailing truck. To nitpick in the extreme, the K4s boiler has a much more pronounced taper than the nearly straight K2s/K3s boiler did. Perhaps you could do the same conversion, but go one step further and remove the belpaire firebox to come up with the K28s (or at least come much closer). As far as the K29/K29s, you could change the cab and remove the belpaire firebox on a Spectrum K4s (I suspect working with Bowser's zinc boiler would be rather more difficult). In the August 1977 Model Railroader, Tom Dressler had a short article about modelling the N&W E3/PRR K3s using the Cary boilers, but he didn't go into specifics about what the boiler was made of (probably lead) or how difficult it was to work with. I realize this is more than you probably wished for, but I hope this helps. Doug Gary Mittner wrote: PRR Modeler List,         I have a question about a long out of production Cary Boiler. Back when I started out in modeling, (mid 70's), I started out with Bowser Locos. I did some research on the locos I was modeling at that time and used old Model Railroader and other mags for information. One day way back then I seen an ad for Cary Boilers. They made a handful of PRR boilers that would fit on Penn-Line/Bowser and other company chassis. Off the top of my head I think they made Boilers for an N1, M1a, I1 and a   K-28/29 Boiler and possibly more. At one time or another I have owned the M1a and the I1 and passed up on buying the N1. I have never actualy seen the K-28/29 Boiler but knew at one time there was someone listing one in an old issue of the Keystone (Snapper). It was sold by the time I made contact with the seller. Has anyone ever seen one or more importantly, does anyone on this list have one they would like to sale? I would like to get my hands dirty again by attempting to build this seldom modeled Loco.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!